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Politicians and campaigners say that Britain is full up. We've got | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
no room for any more immigrants. Thought-provoking or just | :00:12. | :00:22. | |
:00:22. | :00:35. | ||
Good morning, welcome to Sunday Morning Live. The world's | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
population has just tipped the 7 billion mark. And under 20 years, | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
70 million could be living in the UK. Most of that rise would come | :00:45. | :00:52. | |
from immigrants and their children. A happy prospect? Kiran Bali, a | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
magistrate and daughter are all immigrants herself, isn't so sure. | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
I believe this country is fast filling up and the rate of | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
emigration is simply unsustainable. The Church of England has been | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
accused of being the Apostle of Dithering over its handling of the | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
St Paul's protesters. Backing them, wanting them off the premises and | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
then backing them once again. But can a church with billions in | :01:15. | :01:22. | |
assets ever really be a champion of the poor? Islamic extremists | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
planned to disrupt Armistice Day services. Is it a Mark or failure | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
of a civilised society to let them? My guests this week are more used | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
to exchanging strong views than changing their own. On telly, Nina | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
Myskow was on New Faces before becoming a Grumpy Old Woman. His | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
surname tells you that her father was a Polish immigrant who came to | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
fight for Britain in the Second World War. Jonathan Bartley has | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
been making the news all week for putting the boot into the Church of | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
England. His other side reveals that his campaign and a drummer in | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
a blues band. And Kiran Bali is one of Britain's youngest magistrate | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
and a Hindu community leader. She has campaigned for peace, but also | :02:05. | :02:15. | |
:02:15. | :02:31. | ||
holds a black belt in karate. Call 1000 people a day are signing a new | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
E petition telling the Government that Britain is foal and should | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
stop letting in so many immigrants. But businesses say that they need | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
more immigrants to help Hall was out of recession. That is an | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
argument that Kiran Bali doesn't bite. -- bite. | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
I believe this country is fast filling up. The rate of emigration | :02:53. | :03:00. | |
is simply unsustainable. If immigration was to continue at its | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
current level, around 200 homes would need to be built every day | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
for the next 23 years to howlers just those coming into the country. | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
-- house. When I recently went through my pregnancy, I experienced | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
first hand the strain that this level of immigration places on our | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
maternity services. Like so many others, I have paid my taxes. So | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
why should some of those who have not contributed to affect the level | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
of service I receive? Many immigrants came here for the jobs | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
that we often wouldn't do. Some English firms are partly to blame. | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
They have not invested in local people and they have imported | :03:46. | :03:53. | |
foreign labour. Suggesting tighter controls is not racists. It is | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
about highlighting the limited resources and constraints that we | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
have. So, Jonathan, is Britain foal? | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
It is the argument that the Daily Mail used in the 30s to keep German | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
Jews out of the country. It is not that we are full, it is the | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
relationship between people. We have enough money to go round, the | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
rich have most of it and the poor people don't get it will stop that | :04:20. | :04:30. | |
:04:30. | :04:36. | ||
We will show you how you voted at the end of the programme. Kiran, | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
you made that film. People might be surprised that this view comes from | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
someone like yourself, the daughter of immigrants? I don't know why. | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
Just because I am the daughter of an immigrant it doesn't mean that | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
we should have no control on immigration. Statistics prove that | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
England is the most Test -- densely-populated nation in Europe. | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
Next year, we will have more per square mile than the densely | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
populated areas of the Netherlands and Luxembourg. We have to look | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
forward. We can't keep looking backwards and say that all of these | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
immigrants came in the 1960s when conditions were different, it is | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
unrealistic to try to adopt a similar approach now, when we have | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
alarming numbers of people coming in. 570,000 people came into the | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
country last year. Two-thirds of the UK is farming land. We would | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
have to increase our population by 50%, up to 90 million, to come | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
close to the density of the Netherlands. We've got lots of | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
space and resources. What we do have is a problem with second homes. | :05:40. | :05:48. | |
There are 500.002nd homes in the UK. There are 250,000 homes that are | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
empty. The problem is not that we haven't got enough resources. | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
Immigrants are also funding doctors and nurses, as well as being | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
doctors and nurses. We don't have the money to keep building houses. | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
The ageing population, we are living longer and we have to have a | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
bigger working population to support it. If you're happy to have | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
students coming out of a university paying �50,000 in debts, if you are | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
happy for an NHS that isn't funded properly, then batten down the | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
hatches. Nina, you have been quite so far. You have an interesting | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
experience. Your father fought... He came with the Polish forces five | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
days after Dunkirk, he settled in this country until the end of the | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
war and then emigrated to South Africa. That was when I was 18 | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
months old. When he died, when I was 12, my mother brought me back | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
to Britain. Although I am British, because I was born here, I was, in | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
effect, an immigrant at the age of 15. I have experience of being an | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
outsider. I have always felt that Britain is the home of democracy. | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
We should keep our doors open. We are a refuge for anybody that needs | :07:00. | :07:08. | |
help. I will defend that, utterly. But I live in London and I love the | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
ethnic mix. I love the fact that you can walk down the street and | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
yet 20 different languages. That is why I live in London. I couldn't | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
live anywhere else in this country. But we are getting really crowded | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
and resources are getting strained. I know what Jonathan says, but | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
there isn't the money to go around. there isn't the money to go around. | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
For instance, I don't think that the Government realise that, when | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
we opened our borders to the EU, how many Eastern Europeans would | :07:38. | :07:46. | |
come. I thought, fantastic. More Polish people, fabulous. But that | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
caused a huge strain. Many of them are Catholic countries and they are | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
going to have more babies. The thing is, we are restrained in this | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
country in terms of resources and benefits. I don't understand how we | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
are going to pay for it all. If but who we is paying for it is the | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
migrants. It is the tax revenues, the new businesses they are | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
starting. In London, Kensington & Chelsea, that is the one that is | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
most sensible placated. -- densely populated. And it's doing really | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
well. It's not population density, is that the money is in the wrong | :08:24. | :08:34. | |
places. We are joined by a novelist and journalist. We hear this a lot, | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
that there is a strain on resources, that the country cannot afford to | :08:39. | :08:48. | |
pay for more people. Therefore, focus is put on two immigrants. Are | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
their factual reasons, do you think, that people should worry about | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
immigration? Or is there something else going on? No, I think there | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
are no factual reasons whatsoever. I'm amused by the range of racial | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
paranoia I have heard. Look at what migrants do. We come over and work. | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
I am the daughter of a migrant, my mother is an academic and a role | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
model for any one of any race that lives in England right now. We work, | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
we know multiple languages, we have seen some of the world. We are not | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
coming over, as the stereotype has always been, to have lots of babies, | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
to take the resources of the NHS. Has anyone used the NHS risen to? | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
It is not nice enough for anyone to desire to come and use up its | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
resources. The houses being built, the new-build houses, they are not | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
at nights. We don't want to come over just to get some free housing. | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
-- they are not that nice. Major cities are crowded, that is the | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
fault of town planners. That is the fault of the system we have, | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
whereby people working very hard cannot afford housing. These are | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
problems for everyone. But you must look at what migrants do. We work, | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
we learn, we study. Not only that, our children go to university. They | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
are part of something which is what makes Britain great. Diversity and | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
tolerance. It's something which is very interesting, every so often | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
this kind of tremendous hysteria and paranoia, which is really quite | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
racist, some leak bubbles up when people are anxious about the | :10:22. | :10:29. | |
economy. We do celebrate the diversity created by migrants. This | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
is now about numbers. It is about quality, not quantity. We have gone | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
through this, unlimited immigration, tighter controls. How will tighter | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
controls affect people coming over, apart from bringing out the best? | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
Those that are going to come up are going to contribute positively. | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
Immigration controls are already really quite tight. It is not about | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
the numbers. As Jonathan quite rightly says, I am so grateful to | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
you for saying that Britain is not fall. I liked the idea that Britain | :10:59. | :11:06. | |
is a Tupperware container, somehow spilling over. Take the train out | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
of London, it is remarkably empty. We are joined by a spokesman from | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
Migration Watch. Back in the 60s, we were warned by the year 2000 our | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
population could be as much as 75 million. Now we are being warned | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
that it is going to be less than that in 20 or 30 years' time. Isn't | :11:27. | :11:36. | |
this scaremongering? These are not predictions. These are projections. | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
The ONS figures say that we are going to reach 70 million within 16 | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
years. Two-thirds of the added population, additional numbers, are | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
going to be as the result of immigration. That is going to | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
happen. It is a fact. This is not something like looking into a | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
crystal ball and guessing. People are concerned about it. That is why | :12:00. | :12:08. | |
they are rushing to sign up to our petition, 90,000 already this week. | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
But you have just said that it is a fact. But it is also based on | :12:13. | :12:20. | |
trends. So this isn't... Presumably it is guesswork to a certain | :12:20. | :12:27. | |
extent? I mean, anything could happen. There are 240,000 net | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
immigrants into this country. That is what happened last year. The ONS | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
is allowing for 200,000 net. That being the case, we are going to | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
have an additional 5 million immigrants and their families over | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
the next 16 years. That is unless we suddenly stop and say, no, no | :12:49. | :12:56. | |
more immigrants. That is just not true. There are things that could | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
change that, government policy, changing birthrate, changes in the | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
ageing population. The statistics themselves make it clear this is | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
not the case. We have got to prepare for the housing. We need | :13:08. | :13:15. | |
200 houses a week being dealt, just to accommodate... If we built a 3 | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
million more houses, it would be 0.3% of the land mass of the UK. | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
That is if we don't build on brownfield sites. 3 million houses? | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
That is a ridiculous... You are saying that my Brits would pay for | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
them? That is an assumption. -- migrants would not pay for them? | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
There is the environmental impact of this stop back up let's not all | :13:39. | :13:49. | |
:13:49. | :13:50. | ||
This business of immigrants coming here, I think that in itself is | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
slightly racist, that immigrants should come to sustain the rest of | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
us and pay for our old age. Migrants grow old. They don't live | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
in tents. They need houses. It is no answer to simply say that | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
emigrants can come here simply because our population will not | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
grow otherwise. With regards to the figures, the Office of National | :14:15. | :14:21. | |
Statistics has been quite accurate, within plus or minus 2.5%. That is | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
for short-term protections -- projections over 20 years. | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
assumption behind a lot of this is that migrants are going to cost us | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
money. This is frankly wrong. When you are talking about 3 million | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
more houses being built, who it will buy them? It will be the | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
migrants. They will create the businesses and the wealth. Nobody | :14:42. | :14:52. | |
:14:52. | :14:54. | ||
Our emigrants not an easy target? The government building that the | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
bankers and spending so much on propping up the IMF, they can | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
support Europe, or going to war, you could put the focus on spending | :15:06. | :15:13. | |
money on other things? Off-course. But in pragmatic terms, we cannot | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
stop the Government from spending money on a war we did not want to | :15:16. | :15:24. | |
go into. He cannot stop the Government bailing out the Euro. | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
They are going to do that anyway. What is left has to be divided up | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
and used in a pragmatic and practical way and I almost feel | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
guilty thinking that we should have some kind of points system like in | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
Australia for people coming in. Refugees are in danger of their own | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
lives in their own countries, of course we should help feed and | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
clothe them. That will always be a British thing. But we have to see | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
that in practical terms, we need to look carefully and without any | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
emotive thing or any racist attitude as to how we deal with | :16:08. | :16:16. | |
this. We are on the brink of financial meltdown in this country. | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
Immigrants are twice as likely to start businesses. The banks will | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
not give them money. You talk about business as if this will happen. It | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
isn't happening. There are businesses starting up. Who is | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
going to provide that private sector creativity? We already have | :16:37. | :16:46. | |
a waiting list of 1.7 million people... Social housing? Listen to | :16:46. | :16:54. | |
Patrick from Skype. Good morning. As you listen to this debate, and | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
whether we can limit immigration and that might be some solution to | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
the financial problems, what strikes you? I think that emigrants | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
are being scapegoats. Most immigrants who make the journey to | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
Britain wants to work, they tend to be young, fit and ambitious and why | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
else would they travel to this strange land? They are often very | :17:19. | :17:27. | |
creative people. I say to this person on the left, when you hear | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
about the arguments of the growth of the welfare state and they are a | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
burden on the welfare state, it is true that only 7% of landed Britain | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
is settled with houses, but I think the problem is the growth of the | :17:42. | :17:49. | |
welfare state, it reaches into every part of their lives. | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
Individuals who need constant monetary assistance, and the real | :17:52. | :17:59. | |
problem isn't immigrants, but the welfare state training the working | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
class by constantly patronising them. It is the nanny state that is | :18:05. | :18:13. | |
draining us. Kieran, he mentioned here experience when you're | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
pregnant, and that was something that had influence in the way you | :18:17. | :18:24. | |
think about that. Services are deteriorating three health and | :18:25. | :18:32. | |
welfare. I received a service which was not up to the right standards. | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
It was overworked with the baby boom, one and four babies are born | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
to immigrants. You're looking for a service that you need when you have | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
problems. When you are told that the body can see you, it isn't | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
always the way forward. Why make the connection between the service | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
that you think you received, which was not as you would have liked, | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
and immigrants having children? are having more immigrants coming | :19:00. | :19:08. | |
in, more of a strain on resources. Recently, the Royal College of | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
midwives has spoken about this and says that it rejects the assertion | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
that emigration is a problem, and a great many midwives were born | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
outside the UK and without them, NHS maternity care would generally | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
be on its knees. We're not stopping people from coming into the country | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
with those skills. It is about the end users. How can we provide that | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
quality of service? How do you stop people, restrict emigration and not | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
affect the people who provide the care? We want the quality people, | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
people with skills to reinforce what we do not have and we have to | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
look at the British people are relying on benefits, not working, | :19:54. | :20:03. | |
and get them into low-skill jobs so we do not rely on immigration. | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
we would be poorer without migrants in the health care system. But we | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
occupy an incredibly wealthy system in the world with access to | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
resources that the majority of the world does not. It is easier for us | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
to go to a vending machine and pull-out a coma and it is for | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
begins to get any clean water. What moral right to we have to exclude | :20:25. | :20:33. | |
people when it is a matter of life and death? Is Britain for up? | :20:33. | :20:41. | |
Please text the word vote followed by yes. Texts will be charged at | :20:41. | :20:51. | |
:20:51. | :20:52. | ||
your standard message right. Over the last week, Church of England | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
leaders have gone from trying to evict protesters to backing their | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
cost. What does it say? That the Church of England could not see the | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
size of the problem on its doorstep? It has been too hard or | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
soft with protesters? Orders money still matter more than Christian | :21:08. | :21:17. | |
values? What do you think? The Church Feely admits it got this one | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
wrong. First to try to evict the protesters, then, after a cup of | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
resignations, it allowed them to stay. But Christianity is supposed | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
to be about helping the poor and oppressed, so should the Church of | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
England beating the protesters, not trying to get rid of them? Some of | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
those have accused the Church of not being radical enough. They | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
argue that Jesus was a direct action campaigner, challenging the | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
authority. But the established Church of England is part of the | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
system of government. Does that make it harder for it to fight for | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
the poor? Or does it very power and influence mean that when it picks | :21:57. | :22:04. | |
up, even if late, politicians to listen? The Church has assets worth | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
more than �5 billion, including shares in many big banks. Some have | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
accused it of being too slow to criticise the City because of this | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
financial interests. But the Church says its investments fund | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
charitable work and it has been campaigning for social justice long | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
before these current protests started. Did the Church hold back | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
because it is too close to power or too concerned about its own | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
financial interests? Or are they simply a venerable institution | :22:36. | :22:43. | |
caught on the hop by direct action protests and 24 hour news? If you | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
have a webcam, you can join the conversation. War on Twitter or by | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
text or phone. And the Bishop Stephen Lowe, the former Bishop of | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
Manchester, joins us. His money to important? It is important because | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
it enables us to continue to have 10,000 clergy on the ground in some | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
of the poorest communities in the country. One of the exciting things | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
is the Church of England is still there in inner cities, there is a | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
church on every street corner. There is a priest for everybody in | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
the country and without that inherited wealth, that would be | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
impossible because that is the sort of funding which is necessary to | :23:26. | :23:33. | |
sustain that. Are you distracted by the financial interests it has in | :23:33. | :23:40. | |
the big banks? I hope not. I sat as a Church Commissioner for 20 years, | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
trying to represent the interests of the Church in those in a state, | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
in her estate. To ensure that money was going to sustain that. And it | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
does. The money provides the pensions for the clergy who have | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
retired, which enables them to have some sort of ministry after | :24:02. | :24:11. | |
retirement but also, 20% of their salaries, as from the Church | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
Commissioners well. It is important to have a balance between getting | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
the money in in order to do the job that it needs to do? Given the | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
investment in oil, mining companies and banks as well as selling social | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
housing, and buying out-of-town shopping centres, it might have | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
been better to have stuck its money and a bank at 5% interest 10 years | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
ago. But it does see this investment function as something | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
which raises money for its important work. What better | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
approach would be to see the investments as part of the mission, | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
so it's not only trying to raise money but using money to do its | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
work, by investing in green technology. Local housing... | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
does do that to some extent. Less and less. In relation to social | :25:05. | :25:11. | |
housing, we did not manage a particularly well. That isn't the | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
primary task of the Church of England. It sold housing to better | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
social landlords that we were. We had to try to move that investment | :25:21. | :25:30. | |
to enable us to do what we are good at. And maximising the funding to | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
produce that money to sustain the Ministry of the Church is what the | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
Church Commission is about. Ethically, we are guided by ethical | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
investment decisions which make sure the Church invests ethically | :25:43. | :25:50. | |
as far as the money is concerned. When this row broke out about St | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
Gall's and protesters, what surprised you? The fact that it | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
costs so much to run, that they charge for people to go in? Several | :26:01. | :26:09. | |
things. I would have thought the Church would have been the first to | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
support the protesters. I am a lapsed Catholic. I learned various | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
biblical things, what about Jesus and the money lenders? I will not | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
be sino week -- so naive to suggest the Church should invest money, but | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
the image people have of the Anglican Church, the Catholic | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
Church is different, people know that it has vast amounts of wealth. | :26:33. | :26:42. | |
But the Anglican Church, it gives off this image of the Becker on a | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
paltry stipend and the church roof needed mending. Pensioners putting | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
money on a plate to save water coming through the church roof. | :26:51. | :27:00. | |
Fundraising, baking cakes. So, for me to hear about investments and | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
billions of pounds, that seems to me extraordinary. You're not being | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
fair because you're talking about the church. The Church has made | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
above millions of individuals and Giles Fraser was the first | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
sacrificial lamb on the altar of trying to do something on behalf of | :27:18. | :27:27. | |
the protesters. He was signed... The Church is supposed to be... | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
What is the church for? It is supposed to be the guardian of | :27:32. | :27:42. | |
:27:42. | :27:45. | ||
morals, it should be Pontificate in about social injustice. Be dollars! | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
It does not. Yesterday, John spoke about the fat cats and Industry. | :27:50. | :27:58. | |
This should have been done years ago. The situation that changed... | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
25 years ago, it changed the character of the way in which the | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
Church worked. It was accused of being a communist report. 20 years | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
later, it was called fearful cities, looking at the issue of the | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
Church's involvement in social and economic justice and it has been | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
crying from the rooftops around these issues for a very long time. | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
Including the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has maintained a | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
strong line on all these issues. Where was the church during the | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
Iraq war? With the Church come out in favour of the Tobin tax? What | :28:37. | :28:46. | |
about the Iraq war? I was walking up front, like many other bishops. | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
As was the Archbishop of Canterbury. I can hear someone else, Christina | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
or, part of the General Synod and has an advisory role on the Central | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
Board of Finance. I know you want to comment. How does the Church | :29:01. | :29:09. | |
justified having more than �5 billion worth of assets? We pay for | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
most of the expenses of the clergy and also for the 16,000 churches | :29:14. | :29:20. | |
and the great cathedrals of which St Paul's is one of them and unlike | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
France, we pay for this and not the state. Those investments make | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
possible the ministry that we do in every community and as Bishop | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
Stephen said, the reach of the Church of England is there, day-in | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
and day-out, in many invisible ways and that has made possible largely | :29:39. | :29:46. | |
by a good investment. I do not have any problem at all. And they are | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
being continually reviewed in terms of the assets and we simply do not | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
invest in the obvious things that we consider unethical, like tobacco, | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
pornography, arms dealing. Anything to do with that. So people might | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
feel during the banking crisis that it is unethical to invest in some | :30:05. | :30:15. | |
:30:15. | :30:17. | ||
Not at all. That is giving a moral... You know, money is what we | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
used to exchange services. Yes, we do need better regulation of | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
financial institutions, but what we need is a change of heart of the | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
people that work in them. Having said that, most of the people at | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
work in them are people that are either trying to simply do a job | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
well, but there are a lot of ethical people. What we are seeing | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
in the protesters is that basically there is this deep distaste for | :30:41. | :30:48. | |
greed, for using money in a bad way. But Christina... The unjust | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
distribution of wealth. Would you accept that the Church is seeking | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
to profit from activities which are causing the problems? On one hand, | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
it is making money from the people causing the problems and then it is | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
saying, well, we used that money to mitigate the worst effects. It is a | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
contradiction. Why not invest, if they do need to make money, in some | :31:08. | :31:16. | |
good schemes that do not try to minimise harm but actually do good? | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
Excuse me, just because that question was addressed to Christina, | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
could you just answer that question and then I will ask the bishop to | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
respond? Yes, we are trying to do good and we are continually | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
reflecting on our involvement. The Church has to be involved if it is | :31:34. | :31:43. | |
to generate wealth. How is selling housing and investing in out-of- | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
town shopping centres helping? of the things we are doing is using | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
our investments to attend many of the annual shareholder meetings and | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
say, for example, bankers pay is excessive. This is ridiculous to | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
made. We are involved in trying to change the culture within many of | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
the large corporations. As an example, we attended the meeting of | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
the News Corporation and tried, again, to be involved in | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
shareholders' activities. amazed we are sitting here | :32:14. | :32:21. | |
discussing finance, stocks... wouldn't be the -- here without | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
finance! We wouldn't actually be here, doing our work. We wouldn't | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
be the largest voluntary organisation in the country. Can I | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
also ask you one question, why do you charge, if there is all this | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
money, why do you charge �14.50 for somebody to enter St Paul's? | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
Because the running of St Paul's costs are lot more than the amount | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
of money even it gets through visitor income. It is a massive | :32:48. | :32:54. | |
organisation. If I want to go and pray, if I was of that nature, it | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
would cost me �14.50 pence? Not at all, they let you in free if you | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
want to... But you say I want to pre... But my parish doesn't charge, | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
I was at Notre Dame Cathedral. Government is not paid a penny, the | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
French government pays for that! just wanted to say that the issue | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
of charging people to go into churches is a live issue. Some of | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
the great cathedrals do not charge entrance fees. I'm afraid that I | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
side with Nina on that. I don't think we should be charging. But | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
that doesn't make the issue of how we keep our great cathedrals in | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
good maintenance go away. But we cannot divorce ourselves from how | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
we generate money and keep going as a national church. We need to bring | :33:49. | :33:57. | |
in one of the protesters. Tanya is from octopi London. -- Occupy | :33:57. | :34:04. | |
London. Wasn't your focus meant to be in the banks, due have focused | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
it on the church? Which says it is doing good things with the money? | :34:07. | :34:15. | |
It's not so much what the Church of England is investing in. It is | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
about its associations with the City. If you look at Goldman Sachs, | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
some of these major corporations in the city, they are funding St | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
Paul's to a large extent. The question is, who are they sitting | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
around the table with? If you look up the narrative of Christ, you | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
will be tarnished with the brush of who you are sharing your space with. | :34:37. | :34:45. | |
Are you Christian? Yes, very much so. I think she has a point. If I | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
am critical of the Bishop of London, St Paul's and the previous team, I | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
would say that they spent too much time at dinners with City magnates | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
and not enough time listening to the stories of the homeless, the | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
poor and the disadvantaged. They need to be listening much more to | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
Stepney, Hackney, than they do to the people, frankly, of the City of | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
London. They should be challenging them more and they should be far | :35:13. | :35:20. | |
more vigorous in that challenge. I'm going to go back to Christie | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
now on that point. Do you think more challenge needs to be made? | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
Absolutely. That is where we need to focus our attention. How to move | :35:30. | :35:38. | |
forward. Thank you very much indeed. Later, Islamic extremists want to | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
break the minutes' silence on Armistice Day. They say it is in | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
protest at the Muslims killed by our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
It is clearly deeply insulting to soldiers and their families, and | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
indeed to most of the country. But aren't our soldiers are supposed to | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
be fighting against attacks on our way of life, including the right to | :35:55. | :36:05. | |
:36:05. | :36:16. | ||
The question in our text poll is if You have around five minutes before | :36:16. | :36:26. | |
:36:26. | :36:30. | ||
It is time to look at the issues that had our guests' moral | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
compasses spending. You were worried, Nina, about reports that | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
fathers would not be given equal rights in terms of access to | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
children during and after divorce? I'm staggered that this report has | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
come out and said that it doesn't give fathers the access they need. | :36:45. | :36:55. | |
This has been a long awaited issue. It is a really tragic issue. When | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
couples split up, a vast percentage of fathers have no access to their | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
children. For society as a whole, it is the most tragic thing. | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
Children that grow up without two parents, who do not know where they | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
have come from, they don't have that steadying influence, it has | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
been proven time and time again, in all sorts of reports, that | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
statistically they do not do well at school. They are more likely to | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
going to drink and drugs, to criminal activities. There are vast | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
social issues. It is almost a Victorian approach, saying that, in | :37:28. | :37:34. | |
fact, if children do have access to their fathers, sometimes it is too | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
confusing. It seems completely morally wrong. It is interesting, | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
very often a report comes out and you get a balance of views in | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
response. The was in response to this report seemed to all expressed | :37:48. | :37:56. | |
some shock at the results of it? There are many policies that we are | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
pursuing as a society, for example prisons, which have a huge | :38:02. | :38:08. | |
detrimental effect on families. Do we need to stick so many people in | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
prison and take away the access of children to fathers and mothers? | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
There are those issues I wish we had in this debate. We need a | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
broader debate than fighting between fathers and mothers. One of | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
the most disturbing moral issues for me is the removal of legal aid | :38:22. | :38:30. | |
from many of those seeking contact with their children. That seems to | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
be almost a disgraceful moral lapse by the Government, depriving people | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
of the right to proper legal access to make sure they can see their | :38:38. | :38:44. | |
children if they need to. ashamed to say this, women in the | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
situation, many women in this situation, they are entirely wicket. | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
-- wicked. They use the system to deny the children their fathers and | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
to my father's access to the children. I have had personal | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
experience over many, many years. It is absolutely evil. Women just | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
use the system. Social workers conspire, because it is a myth that | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
the child should stay with the mother and the mother knows best. | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
The mother does not know best. It is utterly detrimental to the child. | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
You may have a view on that, it is a strong opinion. You can discuss | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
that on the website. Jonathan has been putting up solar panels on his | :39:25. | :39:32. | |
roof. He is rather dismayed by how much you might get from them? | :39:32. | :39:39. | |
how much I might earn personally. The Government is slashing it, I am | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
a Green candidate and I have had a lot of people get in touch with me. | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
I'm involved in two not-for-profit energy companies. They are all | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
relying on this money. There was supposed to be a huge boost to | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
green jobs in the UK. This was supposed to be the greenest | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
government ever. There was a poster be a massive impetus towards | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
renewable energy. We desperately need it to fulfil targets over | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
carbon emissions. This is going to devastate the industry. It will hit | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
a not-for-profit companies. It pulls the idea of the Big Society | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
into complete disrepute, when the Government will not help out those | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
that want to do something positive in local communities. Personal | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
impact, I've got scars on my knuckles! You put all of that | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
effort in. Meanwhile, you are concerned about John Lennon's | :40:27. | :40:34. | |
teeth? It this strange story. A dentist has bid �30,000 for a | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
rotten tooth from John Lennon on the belief that somehow or other | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
that DNA of John Lennon might, at some stage, be extracted from this | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
and therefore we could clone another John Lennon. It's very | :40:47. | :40:53. | |
Jurassic Park! It really is weird. The notion that one would want to | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
create another lawn -- John Lennon. He is unique, why do we need this | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
notion of cloning people earth so they can be repeated? I rejoice in | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
the uniqueness of every human individual. It is fun that people | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
are different. Do we really need to try to clone people? I liked the | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
comment by the dentist, who spent $30,000, apparently John Lennon had | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
a stomach problem that caused the cavity. He says, it just shows that | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
didn't -- dental care is important for everybody. Perhaps he could use | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
it as an advertising symbol? Don't let your teeth get like this? | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
must be distressing for Yoko Ono to read that story. It would be awful | :41:38. | :41:45. | |
if you were widowed and bits of your husband... A relic? It's | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
rather gruesome. The notion that you can start cloning the relics of | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
saints and creating new saints again. It opens up all sorts of | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
unimaginable ethical... Made you could do that with the Turin | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
shroud? You have been voting in your text poll this morning. They | :42:04. | :42:14. | |
:42:14. | :42:17. | ||
are now closing, so please don't On the day that Britain falls | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
silent to honour our war dead, a small group of Islamic extremists | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
will be making themselves heard as they prick the science -- break the | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
silence. It is seen as an insult to our soldiers and it will be deeply | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
upsetting to their families. It would planning a protest be an even | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
greater insult to the memory of those that died so that we should | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
be free? Next Sunday is Remembrance Day. It | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
commemorates the end of the First World War. For many, this is a | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
chance to honour those that died for our country and the sacrifice | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
is that they need to preserve our freedom, as well as raising money | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
for our soldiers and their families. For others, Remembrance is a | :43:00. | :43:06. | |
political event and a time for protest. Islam is coming back! | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
Muslims Against Crusades outraged many by burning a poppy last year. | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
They are planning to chant through the two minutes' silence held on | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
Armistice Day outside the Royal Albert Hall. They want to use the | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
event to protest against the British Army killing Muslims in | :43:23. | :43:30. | |
Iraq and Afghanistan. Many people, including Muslims, find these | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
protests offensive and inflammatory. So, should they be banned? Or, when | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
our fault fault -- forefathers fought for freedom, should that | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
include the freedom to protest, even in ways that many find | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
offensive? There are others that question whether Remembrance Day | :43:47. | :43:53. | |
will revise war and the killing of civilians. -- glorify his war and | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
the killing of civilians. It is this an appropriate time to | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
question the soldiers that fighter now a name? What is it the duty to | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
honour the dead and their families? You can make your point by phone, | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
text, you no or online. We are joined by Angela Epstein from the | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
Jewish Chronicle. Should the protest be banned? Absolutely. I | :44:16. | :44:22. | |
can't believe it is even a matter for debate. It is a grotesque | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
affront to the memory of British servicemen that gave their lives | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
for this country. To defile the poppy, which is a symbol of the | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
remembrance of the people that died, to dishonour our war dead in this | :44:34. | :44:43. | |
way, it is utterly contemptible. It is beneath contempt. Nina? | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
point being, we all honour and respect those that fought and died, | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
and are fighting, been maimed and killed in wars that we don't | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
support. That doesn't change at all. I wear a poppy, and I will wear the | :44:58. | :45:06. | |
white poppy very happily. My father came to this country during the war. | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
He fought and he fought for freedom. Freedom means freedom of thought, | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
freedom of expression. This is an incredibly emotive thing, the poppy, | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
the flag. But really, a flag is a piece of cloth. A poppy is a piece | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
of paper and plastic. I know it is what it represents, but when you | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
start to control what people think, attempt to control what people | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
think or say, then we move towards a totalitarian state. You cannot | :45:35. | :45:43. | |
possibly... I am amazed that Angela, who is Jewish, how you can not be | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
for freedom when the Nazis tried to control things that... They burned | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
books, to try to... They didn't want anybody different from the way | :45:53. | :46:03. | |
:46:03. | :46:05. | ||
This isn't controlling thought. This isn't free speech, this is a | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
deliberately grotesque and inflammatory action that is bound | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
to incite racial tension, this isn't about protest. This befuddled | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
the definition. Protest is about having a meaningful opportunity to | :46:18. | :46:24. | |
raise opinion about something you can strongly about. I do not agree | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
with burning the flag. That is inflammatory. But I will defend to | :46:29. | :46:38. | |
the death the right of people to think and say things differently. | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
It is more dangerous to say that people... That is how the Burmese | :46:43. | :46:49. | |
and the Chinese government operates, communist China. Do we not need | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
some consider debate because it is inflammatory. There are values that | :46:53. | :46:58. | |
go unchallenged. We only remember the troops, not civilians. And not | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
people killed on the other side. When Robert Runcie's suggested we | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
remember the Argentinian dead... This is what I have a great deal of | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
issues with. This day was designated to remember those who | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
died. If you have an issue with becoming a peace activist and | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
remembering those civilians who died, or some issue about having an | :47:20. | :47:26. | |
informed debate about the right to protest, that is another issue. But | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
why hijack Armistice Day and the fact that we have identified one | :47:30. | :47:40. | |
:47:40. | :47:40. | ||
day... Remembrance belongs to us... We have identified one day will we | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
can remember the war dead and if people want the legitimate right to | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
protest, which had absolutely endorse, and it is a low blow to | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
bring in if the Nazis, that is a different conversation. In it is | :47:53. | :48:00. | |
the same conversation. Let's talk to Anjem Choudary, the spokesperson | :48:00. | :48:07. | |
for Muslims Against Crusades. It is a protest which is offensive to | :48:07. | :48:17. | |
many people. How do you justify that? Good morning. The protest is | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
going to be very provocative and I'm sure people will disagree but | :48:21. | :48:28. | |
what I put to your guests and listeners is that the past dead are | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
being used to justified the war which is taking place and his | :48:32. | :48:38. | |
engaging far more Muslims than Afghanistan and Iraq? The reality | :48:38. | :48:46. | |
is that the poppy is being used to hide those crimes, behind flag- | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
waving and ceremony. There are dead that it to be remembered but | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
they're mostly on the side of the Muslims and because of the | :48:54. | :49:01. | |
occupation of Muslim land, they are not remembered. Can I ask, for | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
those hundreds and thousands of people who want to spend one minute | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
or two minutes in silence, remembering the dead, members of | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
their family, perhaps fathers and grandfathers and grandmothers, | :49:14. | :49:24. | |
:49:24. | :49:49. | ||
perhaps children, why take that We apologise for this interruption. | :49:49. | :49:59. | |
We hope to have you back very If we can force a withdrawal, it is | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
worth it. I do not think that that publication of hundreds or | :50:03. | :50:10. | |
thousands of people slaughtered and even tortured in Afghanistan and | :50:10. | :50:16. | |
Iraq can outweigh any kind of discomfort that people will feel if | :50:16. | :50:24. | |
their flag is burnt. I want to ask, because the question is, this is a | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
protest that is so offensive to those people who are trying to | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
remember the war dead that it should be banned. And I should | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
apologise, we did go off air for a moment. If the protest was banned, | :50:37. | :50:43. | |
what would you do? We would continue to raise our voices about | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
what is taking place in terms of foreign policy. It will not be the | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
last demonstration. But I think the general public needs to be aware of | :50:52. | :50:59. | |
what is taking place in their name. Why is it that politicians are the | :50:59. | :51:07. | |
first ones to wear poppies? They have a foreign policy to occupy | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
these places. I grandfather came from Russia to escape persecution | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
as a Jewish boy and one of the things he did when he became | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
naturalised is he fought in the First World War and he volunteered | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
in the Second World War but was too old. He was a huge patriarch and he | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
accepted that and he became part of this country, he would join the | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
team spirit but that did not deny him the right to criticise things | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
when he did not accept government policy but he did this and the way | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
that would not be offensive. That is the duty of freedom. This | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
country bends over backwards to endorse multiculturalism and the | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
fact that we can accommodate different ethnic views, so why is | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
that paid back by choosing a very special day in our British calendar, | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
and I say this as a Jewish girl who was proud of my own traditions, why | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
choose something that is so important as an opportunity to | :52:04. | :52:11. | |
raise protest? The red poppy, the genesis wasn't the blood-soaked | :52:11. | :52:17. | |
trenches of the First World War. It isn't about the war against Iraq. | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
There are Muslim voices calling for these protests to be banned. Saira | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
Khan is from the Muslim Women's Organisation, inspire. Why should | :52:27. | :52:33. | |
this be banned? Good morning. Before I answer this, I want to say | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
that as a British Muslim woman, I find the views of this man to be | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
vile and disgusting. This man repeatedly states that our British | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
soldiers should burn in hell. He has clarified the actions of the | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
9/11 and 7/7 terrorists. He is a fascist and his record is far | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
removed from the principles of the Islamic faith. I find it deeply | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
offensive and disappointing that this man receives so much exposure, | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
disproportionate air time, to preach this message at a time close | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
to Remembrance Sunday. In answering the question, well, that is a | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
decision for the Home Secretary and the police to make in deciding | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
whether a public disorder would be a direct consequence of this | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
individual's right to his freedom of expression. I find it highly | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
insensitive and deeply provocative that he is burning copies and he | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
shows such disrespect to our great servicemen and women, including my | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
grandfather, who served in the Second World War and fought against | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
the oppression of the fascist radiology, which is what this man | :53:40. | :53:49. | |
stands for. My father was in Normandy as well. To ensure that | :53:49. | :53:56. | |
family feeling. The point is that over remembrance, the way that you | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
remember affects not just what you think of the past but how we act in | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
the future and how we engage in wars. Is there no merit in the | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
point That the way we remember needs to be looked a very hard? It | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
can reinforce wars and glorified them if it isn't handled correctly | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
and it can lead us into interventions that we later regret? | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
Definitely, but my issue is the actions of people like Anjem | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
Choudary, who give a very skewed perception of Muslims in this | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
country and I am tired of the braying of this donkey, because the | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
reality is that British Muslims are serving in the armed forces. There | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
are 600 British Muslims who have vowed to serve in the armed forces | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
today and we need to acknowledge that. And there will be hundreds of | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
thousands of Muslims who have died for Britain. I do want to introduce | :54:54. | :55:01. | |
Stephen Brown, whose son, James, died fighting in Afghanistan. We do | :55:01. | :55:08. | |
appreciate you taking part. What is the prospect of this protest making | :55:08. | :55:17. | |
you feel? Listen to every point, there are valid points, but | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
personally, James was my own son and he showed so much bravery in | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
his life before he went into the army, and to hear people condemning | :55:28. | :55:38. | |
:55:38. | :55:41. | ||
Remembrance Day is terrible. I am so sorry that obviously, it is | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
having that effect, but I want to ask you about this argument that | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
you must struggle with... One of the things that soldiers fight for | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
is the freedom to say some very difficult and offensive things. | :55:55. | :56:03. | |
When you hear that argument, what does that make you think? Soldiers | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
saying offence of things? The fact that soldiers fight for the freedom | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
that allows people to say offensive things because in a repressive | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
regime, that free speech is censored? I agree with people | :56:18. | :56:25. | |
having the right to protest but this protest is more than we can | :56:26. | :56:33. | |
handle, we should not allow that to happen. Thank you. Freedom of | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
expression is about freedom of expression and the problem is | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
people think that means you can manifest your opinions any way you | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
like. I could have set fire to the Koran on the programme, would that | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
be a meaningful way of protesting against radicalised Muslims? I | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
don't think so. Well, we have to end it. The vote is in. At the | :56:54. | :57:00. | |
beginning, we asked if Britain is full up. 94% said yes, it is. 6% | :57:00. | :57:09. | |
said know. Jonathan? 94%? When you ask questions like that, you tend | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
to get opinion polls reflecting those kinds of people are when you | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
ask, who would you like to exclude, people do not want to exclude | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
people and when you press further and say, what about your own | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
community? Everybody thinks their own community is all right and as | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
the other communities that they don't know about. You have to treat | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
these opinion polls very carefully and with great sensitivity and when | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
you look beneath the figures, what you find is that the rhetoric about | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
Britain being full up just falls apart, it really does. Thank you | :57:41. | :57:49. | |
very much to all of my guests. A a and to my guests and the studio, in | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
image cough, Jonathan and Angela Epstein. And all the guests who | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
joined me on the webcam. Andrew Bishop Stephen Lowe, he joined us | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
earlier. And apologies for the fact that we fell off the air very | :58:00. | :58:10. | |
:58:10. | :58:11. | ||
briefly. At I'm sure that you did stick with us. Finishing this | :58:11. | :58:19. | |
thought, 94%? Just final thoughts? There are a lot of Jon Leyne | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
warriors who are very harsh when they do this but people are kind of | :58:23. | :58:26. |