Episode 18 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 18

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Politicians and campaigners say that Britain is full up. We've got

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no room for any more immigrants. Thought-provoking or just

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Good morning, welcome to Sunday Morning Live. The world's

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population has just tipped the 7 billion mark. And under 20 years,

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70 million could be living in the UK. Most of that rise would come

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from immigrants and their children. A happy prospect? Kiran Bali, a

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magistrate and daughter are all immigrants herself, isn't so sure.

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I believe this country is fast filling up and the rate of

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emigration is simply unsustainable. The Church of England has been

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accused of being the Apostle of Dithering over its handling of the

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St Paul's protesters. Backing them, wanting them off the premises and

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then backing them once again. But can a church with billions in

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assets ever really be a champion of the poor? Islamic extremists

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planned to disrupt Armistice Day services. Is it a Mark or failure

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of a civilised society to let them? My guests this week are more used

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to exchanging strong views than changing their own. On telly, Nina

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Myskow was on New Faces before becoming a Grumpy Old Woman. His

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surname tells you that her father was a Polish immigrant who came to

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fight for Britain in the Second World War. Jonathan Bartley has

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been making the news all week for putting the boot into the Church of

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England. His other side reveals that his campaign and a drummer in

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a blues band. And Kiran Bali is one of Britain's youngest magistrate

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and a Hindu community leader. She has campaigned for peace, but also

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holds a black belt in karate. Call 1000 people a day are signing a new

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E petition telling the Government that Britain is foal and should

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stop letting in so many immigrants. But businesses say that they need

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more immigrants to help Hall was out of recession. That is an

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argument that Kiran Bali doesn't bite. -- bite.

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I believe this country is fast filling up. The rate of emigration

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is simply unsustainable. If immigration was to continue at its

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current level, around 200 homes would need to be built every day

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for the next 23 years to howlers just those coming into the country.

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-- house. When I recently went through my pregnancy, I experienced

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first hand the strain that this level of immigration places on our

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maternity services. Like so many others, I have paid my taxes. So

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why should some of those who have not contributed to affect the level

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of service I receive? Many immigrants came here for the jobs

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that we often wouldn't do. Some English firms are partly to blame.

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They have not invested in local people and they have imported

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foreign labour. Suggesting tighter controls is not racists. It is

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about highlighting the limited resources and constraints that we

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have. So, Jonathan, is Britain foal?

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It is the argument that the Daily Mail used in the 30s to keep German

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Jews out of the country. It is not that we are full, it is the

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relationship between people. We have enough money to go round, the

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rich have most of it and the poor people don't get it will stop that

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We will show you how you voted at the end of the programme. Kiran,

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you made that film. People might be surprised that this view comes from

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someone like yourself, the daughter of immigrants? I don't know why.

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Just because I am the daughter of an immigrant it doesn't mean that

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we should have no control on immigration. Statistics prove that

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England is the most Test -- densely-populated nation in Europe.

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Next year, we will have more per square mile than the densely

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populated areas of the Netherlands and Luxembourg. We have to look

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forward. We can't keep looking backwards and say that all of these

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immigrants came in the 1960s when conditions were different, it is

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unrealistic to try to adopt a similar approach now, when we have

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alarming numbers of people coming in. 570,000 people came into the

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country last year. Two-thirds of the UK is farming land. We would

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have to increase our population by 50%, up to 90 million, to come

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close to the density of the Netherlands. We've got lots of

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space and resources. What we do have is a problem with second homes.

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There are 500.002nd homes in the UK. There are 250,000 homes that are

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empty. The problem is not that we haven't got enough resources.

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Immigrants are also funding doctors and nurses, as well as being

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doctors and nurses. We don't have the money to keep building houses.

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The ageing population, we are living longer and we have to have a

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bigger working population to support it. If you're happy to have

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students coming out of a university paying �50,000 in debts, if you are

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happy for an NHS that isn't funded properly, then batten down the

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hatches. Nina, you have been quite so far. You have an interesting

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experience. Your father fought... He came with the Polish forces five

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days after Dunkirk, he settled in this country until the end of the

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war and then emigrated to South Africa. That was when I was 18

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months old. When he died, when I was 12, my mother brought me back

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to Britain. Although I am British, because I was born here, I was, in

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effect, an immigrant at the age of 15. I have experience of being an

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outsider. I have always felt that Britain is the home of democracy.

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We should keep our doors open. We are a refuge for anybody that needs

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help. I will defend that, utterly. But I live in London and I love the

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ethnic mix. I love the fact that you can walk down the street and

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yet 20 different languages. That is why I live in London. I couldn't

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live anywhere else in this country. But we are getting really crowded

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and resources are getting strained. I know what Jonathan says, but

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there isn't the money to go around. there isn't the money to go around.

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For instance, I don't think that the Government realise that, when

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we opened our borders to the EU, how many Eastern Europeans would

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come. I thought, fantastic. More Polish people, fabulous. But that

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caused a huge strain. Many of them are Catholic countries and they are

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going to have more babies. The thing is, we are restrained in this

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country in terms of resources and benefits. I don't understand how we

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are going to pay for it all. If but who we is paying for it is the

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migrants. It is the tax revenues, the new businesses they are

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starting. In London, Kensington & Chelsea, that is the one that is

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most sensible placated. -- densely populated. And it's doing really

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well. It's not population density, is that the money is in the wrong

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places. We are joined by a novelist and journalist. We hear this a lot,

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that there is a strain on resources, that the country cannot afford to

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pay for more people. Therefore, focus is put on two immigrants. Are

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their factual reasons, do you think, that people should worry about

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immigration? Or is there something else going on? No, I think there

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are no factual reasons whatsoever. I'm amused by the range of racial

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paranoia I have heard. Look at what migrants do. We come over and work.

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I am the daughter of a migrant, my mother is an academic and a role

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model for any one of any race that lives in England right now. We work,

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we know multiple languages, we have seen some of the world. We are not

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coming over, as the stereotype has always been, to have lots of babies,

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to take the resources of the NHS. Has anyone used the NHS risen to?

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It is not nice enough for anyone to desire to come and use up its

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resources. The houses being built, the new-build houses, they are not

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at nights. We don't want to come over just to get some free housing.

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-- they are not that nice. Major cities are crowded, that is the

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fault of town planners. That is the fault of the system we have,

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whereby people working very hard cannot afford housing. These are

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problems for everyone. But you must look at what migrants do. We work,

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we learn, we study. Not only that, our children go to university. They

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are part of something which is what makes Britain great. Diversity and

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tolerance. It's something which is very interesting, every so often

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this kind of tremendous hysteria and paranoia, which is really quite

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racist, some leak bubbles up when people are anxious about the

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economy. We do celebrate the diversity created by migrants. This

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is now about numbers. It is about quality, not quantity. We have gone

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through this, unlimited immigration, tighter controls. How will tighter

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controls affect people coming over, apart from bringing out the best?

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Those that are going to come up are going to contribute positively.

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Immigration controls are already really quite tight. It is not about

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the numbers. As Jonathan quite rightly says, I am so grateful to

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you for saying that Britain is not fall. I liked the idea that Britain

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is a Tupperware container, somehow spilling over. Take the train out

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of London, it is remarkably empty. We are joined by a spokesman from

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Migration Watch. Back in the 60s, we were warned by the year 2000 our

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population could be as much as 75 million. Now we are being warned

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that it is going to be less than that in 20 or 30 years' time. Isn't

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this scaremongering? These are not predictions. These are projections.

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The ONS figures say that we are going to reach 70 million within 16

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years. Two-thirds of the added population, additional numbers, are

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going to be as the result of immigration. That is going to

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happen. It is a fact. This is not something like looking into a

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crystal ball and guessing. People are concerned about it. That is why

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they are rushing to sign up to our petition, 90,000 already this week.

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But you have just said that it is a fact. But it is also based on

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trends. So this isn't... Presumably it is guesswork to a certain

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extent? I mean, anything could happen. There are 240,000 net

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immigrants into this country. That is what happened last year. The ONS

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is allowing for 200,000 net. That being the case, we are going to

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have an additional 5 million immigrants and their families over

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the next 16 years. That is unless we suddenly stop and say, no, no

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more immigrants. That is just not true. There are things that could

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change that, government policy, changing birthrate, changes in the

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ageing population. The statistics themselves make it clear this is

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not the case. We have got to prepare for the housing. We need

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200 houses a week being dealt, just to accommodate... If we built a 3

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million more houses, it would be 0.3% of the land mass of the UK.

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That is if we don't build on brownfield sites. 3 million houses?

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That is a ridiculous... You are saying that my Brits would pay for

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them? That is an assumption. -- migrants would not pay for them?

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There is the environmental impact of this stop back up let's not all

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This business of immigrants coming here, I think that in itself is

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slightly racist, that immigrants should come to sustain the rest of

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us and pay for our old age. Migrants grow old. They don't live

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in tents. They need houses. It is no answer to simply say that

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emigrants can come here simply because our population will not

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grow otherwise. With regards to the figures, the Office of National

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Statistics has been quite accurate, within plus or minus 2.5%. That is

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for short-term protections -- projections over 20 years.

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assumption behind a lot of this is that migrants are going to cost us

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money. This is frankly wrong. When you are talking about 3 million

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more houses being built, who it will buy them? It will be the

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migrants. They will create the businesses and the wealth. Nobody

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Our emigrants not an easy target? The government building that the

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bankers and spending so much on propping up the IMF, they can

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support Europe, or going to war, you could put the focus on spending

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money on other things? Off-course. But in pragmatic terms, we cannot

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stop the Government from spending money on a war we did not want to

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go into. He cannot stop the Government bailing out the Euro.

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They are going to do that anyway. What is left has to be divided up

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and used in a pragmatic and practical way and I almost feel

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guilty thinking that we should have some kind of points system like in

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Australia for people coming in. Refugees are in danger of their own

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lives in their own countries, of course we should help feed and

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clothe them. That will always be a British thing. But we have to see

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that in practical terms, we need to look carefully and without any

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emotive thing or any racist attitude as to how we deal with

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this. We are on the brink of financial meltdown in this country.

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Immigrants are twice as likely to start businesses. The banks will

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not give them money. You talk about business as if this will happen. It

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isn't happening. There are businesses starting up. Who is

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going to provide that private sector creativity? We already have

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a waiting list of 1.7 million people... Social housing? Listen to

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Patrick from Skype. Good morning. As you listen to this debate, and

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whether we can limit immigration and that might be some solution to

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the financial problems, what strikes you? I think that emigrants

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are being scapegoats. Most immigrants who make the journey to

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Britain wants to work, they tend to be young, fit and ambitious and why

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else would they travel to this strange land? They are often very

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creative people. I say to this person on the left, when you hear

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about the arguments of the growth of the welfare state and they are a

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burden on the welfare state, it is true that only 7% of landed Britain

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is settled with houses, but I think the problem is the growth of the

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welfare state, it reaches into every part of their lives.

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Individuals who need constant monetary assistance, and the real

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problem isn't immigrants, but the welfare state training the working

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class by constantly patronising them. It is the nanny state that is

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draining us. Kieran, he mentioned here experience when you're

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pregnant, and that was something that had influence in the way you

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think about that. Services are deteriorating three health and

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welfare. I received a service which was not up to the right standards.

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It was overworked with the baby boom, one and four babies are born

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to immigrants. You're looking for a service that you need when you have

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problems. When you are told that the body can see you, it isn't

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always the way forward. Why make the connection between the service

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that you think you received, which was not as you would have liked,

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and immigrants having children? are having more immigrants coming

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in, more of a strain on resources. Recently, the Royal College of

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midwives has spoken about this and says that it rejects the assertion

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that emigration is a problem, and a great many midwives were born

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outside the UK and without them, NHS maternity care would generally

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be on its knees. We're not stopping people from coming into the country

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with those skills. It is about the end users. How can we provide that

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quality of service? How do you stop people, restrict emigration and not

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affect the people who provide the care? We want the quality people,

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people with skills to reinforce what we do not have and we have to

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look at the British people are relying on benefits, not working,

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and get them into low-skill jobs so we do not rely on immigration.

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we would be poorer without migrants in the health care system. But we

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occupy an incredibly wealthy system in the world with access to

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resources that the majority of the world does not. It is easier for us

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to go to a vending machine and pull-out a coma and it is for

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begins to get any clean water. What moral right to we have to exclude

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people when it is a matter of life and death? Is Britain for up?

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Please text the word vote followed by yes. Texts will be charged at

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your standard message right. Over the last week, Church of England

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leaders have gone from trying to evict protesters to backing their

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cost. What does it say? That the Church of England could not see the

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size of the problem on its doorstep? It has been too hard or

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soft with protesters? Orders money still matter more than Christian

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values? What do you think? The Church Feely admits it got this one

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wrong. First to try to evict the protesters, then, after a cup of

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resignations, it allowed them to stay. But Christianity is supposed

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to be about helping the poor and oppressed, so should the Church of

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England beating the protesters, not trying to get rid of them? Some of

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those have accused the Church of not being radical enough. They

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argue that Jesus was a direct action campaigner, challenging the

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authority. But the established Church of England is part of the

:21:49.:21:52.

system of government. Does that make it harder for it to fight for

:21:52.:21:57.

the poor? Or does it very power and influence mean that when it picks

:21:57.:22:04.

up, even if late, politicians to listen? The Church has assets worth

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more than �5 billion, including shares in many big banks. Some have

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accused it of being too slow to criticise the City because of this

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financial interests. But the Church says its investments fund

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charitable work and it has been campaigning for social justice long

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before these current protests started. Did the Church hold back

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because it is too close to power or too concerned about its own

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financial interests? Or are they simply a venerable institution

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caught on the hop by direct action protests and 24 hour news? If you

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have a webcam, you can join the conversation. War on Twitter or by

:22:48.:22:53.

text or phone. And the Bishop Stephen Lowe, the former Bishop of

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Manchester, joins us. His money to important? It is important because

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it enables us to continue to have 10,000 clergy on the ground in some

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of the poorest communities in the country. One of the exciting things

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is the Church of England is still there in inner cities, there is a

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church on every street corner. There is a priest for everybody in

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the country and without that inherited wealth, that would be

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impossible because that is the sort of funding which is necessary to

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sustain that. Are you distracted by the financial interests it has in

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the big banks? I hope not. I sat as a Church Commissioner for 20 years,

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trying to represent the interests of the Church in those in a state,

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in her estate. To ensure that money was going to sustain that. And it

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does. The money provides the pensions for the clergy who have

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retired, which enables them to have some sort of ministry after

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retirement but also, 20% of their salaries, as from the Church

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Commissioners well. It is important to have a balance between getting

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the money in in order to do the job that it needs to do? Given the

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investment in oil, mining companies and banks as well as selling social

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housing, and buying out-of-town shopping centres, it might have

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been better to have stuck its money and a bank at 5% interest 10 years

:24:34.:24:41.

ago. But it does see this investment function as something

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which raises money for its important work. What better

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approach would be to see the investments as part of the mission,

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so it's not only trying to raise money but using money to do its

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work, by investing in green technology. Local housing...

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does do that to some extent. Less and less. In relation to social

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housing, we did not manage a particularly well. That isn't the

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primary task of the Church of England. It sold housing to better

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social landlords that we were. We had to try to move that investment

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to enable us to do what we are good at. And maximising the funding to

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produce that money to sustain the Ministry of the Church is what the

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Church Commission is about. Ethically, we are guided by ethical

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investment decisions which make sure the Church invests ethically

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as far as the money is concerned. When this row broke out about St

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Gall's and protesters, what surprised you? The fact that it

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costs so much to run, that they charge for people to go in? Several

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things. I would have thought the Church would have been the first to

:26:09.:26:14.

support the protesters. I am a lapsed Catholic. I learned various

:26:14.:26:20.

biblical things, what about Jesus and the money lenders? I will not

:26:20.:26:24.

be sino week -- so naive to suggest the Church should invest money, but

:26:24.:26:28.

the image people have of the Anglican Church, the Catholic

:26:28.:26:33.

Church is different, people know that it has vast amounts of wealth.

:26:33.:26:42.

But the Anglican Church, it gives off this image of the Becker on a

:26:42.:26:47.

paltry stipend and the church roof needed mending. Pensioners putting

:26:47.:26:51.

money on a plate to save water coming through the church roof.

:26:51.:27:00.

Fundraising, baking cakes. So, for me to hear about investments and

:27:00.:27:06.

billions of pounds, that seems to me extraordinary. You're not being

:27:06.:27:10.

fair because you're talking about the church. The Church has made

:27:10.:27:14.

above millions of individuals and Giles Fraser was the first

:27:14.:27:18.

sacrificial lamb on the altar of trying to do something on behalf of

:27:18.:27:27.

the protesters. He was signed... The Church is supposed to be...

:27:27.:27:32.

What is the church for? It is supposed to be the guardian of

:27:32.:27:42.
:27:42.:27:45.

morals, it should be Pontificate in about social injustice. Be dollars!

:27:45.:27:50.

It does not. Yesterday, John spoke about the fat cats and Industry.

:27:50.:27:58.

This should have been done years ago. The situation that changed...

:27:58.:28:03.

25 years ago, it changed the character of the way in which the

:28:04.:28:08.

Church worked. It was accused of being a communist report. 20 years

:28:08.:28:12.

later, it was called fearful cities, looking at the issue of the

:28:12.:28:17.

Church's involvement in social and economic justice and it has been

:28:17.:28:23.

crying from the rooftops around these issues for a very long time.

:28:23.:28:25.

Including the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has maintained a

:28:25.:28:31.

strong line on all these issues. Where was the church during the

:28:31.:28:37.

Iraq war? With the Church come out in favour of the Tobin tax? What

:28:37.:28:46.

about the Iraq war? I was walking up front, like many other bishops.

:28:46.:28:51.

As was the Archbishop of Canterbury. I can hear someone else, Christina

:28:51.:28:56.

or, part of the General Synod and has an advisory role on the Central

:28:56.:29:01.

Board of Finance. I know you want to comment. How does the Church

:29:01.:29:09.

justified having more than �5 billion worth of assets? We pay for

:29:09.:29:14.

most of the expenses of the clergy and also for the 16,000 churches

:29:14.:29:20.

and the great cathedrals of which St Paul's is one of them and unlike

:29:20.:29:25.

France, we pay for this and not the state. Those investments make

:29:25.:29:30.

possible the ministry that we do in every community and as Bishop

:29:30.:29:35.

Stephen said, the reach of the Church of England is there, day-in

:29:35.:29:39.

and day-out, in many invisible ways and that has made possible largely

:29:39.:29:46.

by a good investment. I do not have any problem at all. And they are

:29:46.:29:50.

being continually reviewed in terms of the assets and we simply do not

:29:50.:29:56.

invest in the obvious things that we consider unethical, like tobacco,

:29:56.:30:01.

pornography, arms dealing. Anything to do with that. So people might

:30:01.:30:05.

feel during the banking crisis that it is unethical to invest in some

:30:05.:30:15.
:30:15.:30:17.

Not at all. That is giving a moral... You know, money is what we

:30:17.:30:21.

used to exchange services. Yes, we do need better regulation of

:30:21.:30:25.

financial institutions, but what we need is a change of heart of the

:30:25.:30:29.

people that work in them. Having said that, most of the people at

:30:29.:30:32.

work in them are people that are either trying to simply do a job

:30:32.:30:36.

well, but there are a lot of ethical people. What we are seeing

:30:36.:30:41.

in the protesters is that basically there is this deep distaste for

:30:41.:30:48.

greed, for using money in a bad way. But Christina... The unjust

:30:48.:30:51.

distribution of wealth. Would you accept that the Church is seeking

:30:51.:30:56.

to profit from activities which are causing the problems? On one hand,

:30:56.:30:59.

it is making money from the people causing the problems and then it is

:30:59.:31:04.

saying, well, we used that money to mitigate the worst effects. It is a

:31:04.:31:08.

contradiction. Why not invest, if they do need to make money, in some

:31:08.:31:16.

good schemes that do not try to minimise harm but actually do good?

:31:16.:31:21.

Excuse me, just because that question was addressed to Christina,

:31:21.:31:24.

could you just answer that question and then I will ask the bishop to

:31:24.:31:30.

respond? Yes, we are trying to do good and we are continually

:31:30.:31:34.

reflecting on our involvement. The Church has to be involved if it is

:31:34.:31:43.

to generate wealth. How is selling housing and investing in out-of-

:31:43.:31:48.

town shopping centres helping? of the things we are doing is using

:31:48.:31:51.

our investments to attend many of the annual shareholder meetings and

:31:51.:31:56.

say, for example, bankers pay is excessive. This is ridiculous to

:31:57.:32:02.

made. We are involved in trying to change the culture within many of

:32:02.:32:06.

the large corporations. As an example, we attended the meeting of

:32:06.:32:10.

the News Corporation and tried, again, to be involved in

:32:10.:32:14.

shareholders' activities. amazed we are sitting here

:32:14.:32:21.

discussing finance, stocks... wouldn't be the -- here without

:32:21.:32:25.

finance! We wouldn't actually be here, doing our work. We wouldn't

:32:25.:32:30.

be the largest voluntary organisation in the country. Can I

:32:30.:32:34.

also ask you one question, why do you charge, if there is all this

:32:34.:32:40.

money, why do you charge �14.50 for somebody to enter St Paul's?

:32:40.:32:44.

Because the running of St Paul's costs are lot more than the amount

:32:44.:32:48.

of money even it gets through visitor income. It is a massive

:32:48.:32:54.

organisation. If I want to go and pray, if I was of that nature, it

:32:55.:33:00.

would cost me �14.50 pence? Not at all, they let you in free if you

:33:00.:33:08.

want to... But you say I want to pre... But my parish doesn't charge,

:33:08.:33:11.

I was at Notre Dame Cathedral. Government is not paid a penny, the

:33:12.:33:18.

French government pays for that! just wanted to say that the issue

:33:18.:33:24.

of charging people to go into churches is a live issue. Some of

:33:24.:33:29.

the great cathedrals do not charge entrance fees. I'm afraid that I

:33:29.:33:32.

side with Nina on that. I don't think we should be charging. But

:33:32.:33:38.

that doesn't make the issue of how we keep our great cathedrals in

:33:38.:33:44.

good maintenance go away. But we cannot divorce ourselves from how

:33:44.:33:49.

we generate money and keep going as a national church. We need to bring

:33:49.:33:57.

in one of the protesters. Tanya is from octopi London. -- Occupy

:33:57.:34:04.

London. Wasn't your focus meant to be in the banks, due have focused

:34:04.:34:07.

it on the church? Which says it is doing good things with the money?

:34:07.:34:15.

It's not so much what the Church of England is investing in. It is

:34:15.:34:19.

about its associations with the City. If you look at Goldman Sachs,

:34:19.:34:23.

some of these major corporations in the city, they are funding St

:34:23.:34:27.

Paul's to a large extent. The question is, who are they sitting

:34:27.:34:31.

around the table with? If you look up the narrative of Christ, you

:34:31.:34:37.

will be tarnished with the brush of who you are sharing your space with.

:34:37.:34:45.

Are you Christian? Yes, very much so. I think she has a point. If I

:34:45.:34:49.

am critical of the Bishop of London, St Paul's and the previous team, I

:34:49.:34:54.

would say that they spent too much time at dinners with City magnates

:34:54.:34:57.

and not enough time listening to the stories of the homeless, the

:34:58.:35:04.

poor and the disadvantaged. They need to be listening much more to

:35:04.:35:10.

Stepney, Hackney, than they do to the people, frankly, of the City of

:35:10.:35:13.

London. They should be challenging them more and they should be far

:35:13.:35:20.

more vigorous in that challenge. I'm going to go back to Christie

:35:20.:35:25.

now on that point. Do you think more challenge needs to be made?

:35:25.:35:30.

Absolutely. That is where we need to focus our attention. How to move

:35:30.:35:38.

forward. Thank you very much indeed. Later, Islamic extremists want to

:35:38.:35:40.

break the minutes' silence on Armistice Day. They say it is in

:35:40.:35:44.

protest at the Muslims killed by our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.

:35:44.:35:48.

It is clearly deeply insulting to soldiers and their families, and

:35:48.:35:51.

indeed to most of the country. But aren't our soldiers are supposed to

:35:51.:35:55.

be fighting against attacks on our way of life, including the right to

:35:55.:36:05.
:36:05.:36:16.

The question in our text poll is if You have around five minutes before

:36:16.:36:26.
:36:26.:36:30.

It is time to look at the issues that had our guests' moral

:36:30.:36:33.

compasses spending. You were worried, Nina, about reports that

:36:33.:36:37.

fathers would not be given equal rights in terms of access to

:36:37.:36:41.

children during and after divorce? I'm staggered that this report has

:36:41.:36:45.

come out and said that it doesn't give fathers the access they need.

:36:45.:36:55.

This has been a long awaited issue. It is a really tragic issue. When

:36:55.:36:58.

couples split up, a vast percentage of fathers have no access to their

:36:58.:37:04.

children. For society as a whole, it is the most tragic thing.

:37:04.:37:07.

Children that grow up without two parents, who do not know where they

:37:07.:37:11.

have come from, they don't have that steadying influence, it has

:37:11.:37:15.

been proven time and time again, in all sorts of reports, that

:37:15.:37:19.

statistically they do not do well at school. They are more likely to

:37:19.:37:24.

going to drink and drugs, to criminal activities. There are vast

:37:24.:37:28.

social issues. It is almost a Victorian approach, saying that, in

:37:28.:37:34.

fact, if children do have access to their fathers, sometimes it is too

:37:34.:37:39.

confusing. It seems completely morally wrong. It is interesting,

:37:39.:37:44.

very often a report comes out and you get a balance of views in

:37:44.:37:48.

response. The was in response to this report seemed to all expressed

:37:48.:37:56.

some shock at the results of it? There are many policies that we are

:37:56.:38:02.

pursuing as a society, for example prisons, which have a huge

:38:02.:38:08.

detrimental effect on families. Do we need to stick so many people in

:38:08.:38:11.

prison and take away the access of children to fathers and mothers?

:38:11.:38:15.

There are those issues I wish we had in this debate. We need a

:38:15.:38:18.

broader debate than fighting between fathers and mothers. One of

:38:18.:38:22.

the most disturbing moral issues for me is the removal of legal aid

:38:22.:38:30.

from many of those seeking contact with their children. That seems to

:38:30.:38:35.

be almost a disgraceful moral lapse by the Government, depriving people

:38:35.:38:38.

of the right to proper legal access to make sure they can see their

:38:38.:38:44.

children if they need to. ashamed to say this, women in the

:38:44.:38:50.

situation, many women in this situation, they are entirely wicket.

:38:50.:38:54.

-- wicked. They use the system to deny the children their fathers and

:38:54.:38:58.

to my father's access to the children. I have had personal

:38:58.:39:04.

experience over many, many years. It is absolutely evil. Women just

:39:04.:39:10.

use the system. Social workers conspire, because it is a myth that

:39:10.:39:13.

the child should stay with the mother and the mother knows best.

:39:13.:39:17.

The mother does not know best. It is utterly detrimental to the child.

:39:17.:39:21.

You may have a view on that, it is a strong opinion. You can discuss

:39:21.:39:25.

that on the website. Jonathan has been putting up solar panels on his

:39:25.:39:32.

roof. He is rather dismayed by how much you might get from them?

:39:32.:39:39.

how much I might earn personally. The Government is slashing it, I am

:39:39.:39:43.

a Green candidate and I have had a lot of people get in touch with me.

:39:43.:39:46.

I'm involved in two not-for-profit energy companies. They are all

:39:46.:39:50.

relying on this money. There was supposed to be a huge boost to

:39:50.:39:54.

green jobs in the UK. This was supposed to be the greenest

:39:54.:39:56.

government ever. There was a poster be a massive impetus towards

:39:56.:40:01.

renewable energy. We desperately need it to fulfil targets over

:40:01.:40:05.

carbon emissions. This is going to devastate the industry. It will hit

:40:05.:40:09.

a not-for-profit companies. It pulls the idea of the Big Society

:40:09.:40:12.

into complete disrepute, when the Government will not help out those

:40:12.:40:16.

that want to do something positive in local communities. Personal

:40:16.:40:21.

impact, I've got scars on my knuckles! You put all of that

:40:21.:40:27.

effort in. Meanwhile, you are concerned about John Lennon's

:40:27.:40:34.

teeth? It this strange story. A dentist has bid �30,000 for a

:40:34.:40:37.

rotten tooth from John Lennon on the belief that somehow or other

:40:37.:40:42.

that DNA of John Lennon might, at some stage, be extracted from this

:40:42.:40:47.

and therefore we could clone another John Lennon. It's very

:40:47.:40:53.

Jurassic Park! It really is weird. The notion that one would want to

:40:53.:40:58.

create another lawn -- John Lennon. He is unique, why do we need this

:40:59.:41:02.

notion of cloning people earth so they can be repeated? I rejoice in

:41:03.:41:07.

the uniqueness of every human individual. It is fun that people

:41:07.:41:13.

are different. Do we really need to try to clone people? I liked the

:41:13.:41:19.

comment by the dentist, who spent $30,000, apparently John Lennon had

:41:19.:41:23.

a stomach problem that caused the cavity. He says, it just shows that

:41:23.:41:29.

didn't -- dental care is important for everybody. Perhaps he could use

:41:29.:41:33.

it as an advertising symbol? Don't let your teeth get like this?

:41:33.:41:38.

must be distressing for Yoko Ono to read that story. It would be awful

:41:38.:41:45.

if you were widowed and bits of your husband... A relic? It's

:41:45.:41:51.

rather gruesome. The notion that you can start cloning the relics of

:41:51.:41:55.

saints and creating new saints again. It opens up all sorts of

:41:55.:41:59.

unimaginable ethical... Made you could do that with the Turin

:41:59.:42:04.

shroud? You have been voting in your text poll this morning. They

:42:04.:42:14.
:42:14.:42:17.

are now closing, so please don't On the day that Britain falls

:42:17.:42:21.

silent to honour our war dead, a small group of Islamic extremists

:42:21.:42:26.

will be making themselves heard as they prick the science -- break the

:42:26.:42:30.

silence. It is seen as an insult to our soldiers and it will be deeply

:42:30.:42:34.

upsetting to their families. It would planning a protest be an even

:42:34.:42:36.

greater insult to the memory of those that died so that we should

:42:36.:42:43.

be free? Next Sunday is Remembrance Day. It

:42:43.:42:48.

commemorates the end of the First World War. For many, this is a

:42:48.:42:52.

chance to honour those that died for our country and the sacrifice

:42:52.:42:55.

is that they need to preserve our freedom, as well as raising money

:42:55.:43:00.

for our soldiers and their families. For others, Remembrance is a

:43:00.:43:06.

political event and a time for protest. Islam is coming back!

:43:06.:43:13.

Muslims Against Crusades outraged many by burning a poppy last year.

:43:13.:43:16.

They are planning to chant through the two minutes' silence held on

:43:17.:43:20.

Armistice Day outside the Royal Albert Hall. They want to use the

:43:20.:43:23.

event to protest against the British Army killing Muslims in

:43:23.:43:30.

Iraq and Afghanistan. Many people, including Muslims, find these

:43:30.:43:35.

protests offensive and inflammatory. So, should they be banned? Or, when

:43:35.:43:38.

our fault fault -- forefathers fought for freedom, should that

:43:38.:43:42.

include the freedom to protest, even in ways that many find

:43:42.:43:47.

offensive? There are others that question whether Remembrance Day

:43:47.:43:53.

will revise war and the killing of civilians. -- glorify his war and

:43:53.:43:57.

the killing of civilians. It is this an appropriate time to

:43:57.:44:01.

question the soldiers that fighter now a name? What is it the duty to

:44:02.:44:07.

honour the dead and their families? You can make your point by phone,

:44:07.:44:12.

text, you no or online. We are joined by Angela Epstein from the

:44:13.:44:16.

Jewish Chronicle. Should the protest be banned? Absolutely. I

:44:16.:44:22.

can't believe it is even a matter for debate. It is a grotesque

:44:22.:44:25.

affront to the memory of British servicemen that gave their lives

:44:25.:44:30.

for this country. To defile the poppy, which is a symbol of the

:44:30.:44:34.

remembrance of the people that died, to dishonour our war dead in this

:44:34.:44:43.

way, it is utterly contemptible. It is beneath contempt. Nina?

:44:43.:44:48.

point being, we all honour and respect those that fought and died,

:44:48.:44:52.

and are fighting, been maimed and killed in wars that we don't

:44:52.:44:58.

support. That doesn't change at all. I wear a poppy, and I will wear the

:44:58.:45:06.

white poppy very happily. My father came to this country during the war.

:45:06.:45:12.

He fought and he fought for freedom. Freedom means freedom of thought,

:45:12.:45:17.

freedom of expression. This is an incredibly emotive thing, the poppy,

:45:17.:45:22.

the flag. But really, a flag is a piece of cloth. A poppy is a piece

:45:22.:45:26.

of paper and plastic. I know it is what it represents, but when you

:45:26.:45:29.

start to control what people think, attempt to control what people

:45:29.:45:35.

think or say, then we move towards a totalitarian state. You cannot

:45:35.:45:43.

possibly... I am amazed that Angela, who is Jewish, how you can not be

:45:43.:45:48.

for freedom when the Nazis tried to control things that... They burned

:45:48.:45:53.

books, to try to... They didn't want anybody different from the way

:45:53.:46:03.
:46:03.:46:05.

This isn't controlling thought. This isn't free speech, this is a

:46:06.:46:09.

deliberately grotesque and inflammatory action that is bound

:46:09.:46:14.

to incite racial tension, this isn't about protest. This befuddled

:46:14.:46:18.

the definition. Protest is about having a meaningful opportunity to

:46:18.:46:24.

raise opinion about something you can strongly about. I do not agree

:46:24.:46:29.

with burning the flag. That is inflammatory. But I will defend to

:46:29.:46:38.

the death the right of people to think and say things differently.

:46:38.:46:43.

It is more dangerous to say that people... That is how the Burmese

:46:43.:46:49.

and the Chinese government operates, communist China. Do we not need

:46:49.:46:53.

some consider debate because it is inflammatory. There are values that

:46:53.:46:58.

go unchallenged. We only remember the troops, not civilians. And not

:46:58.:47:02.

people killed on the other side. When Robert Runcie's suggested we

:47:03.:47:08.

remember the Argentinian dead... This is what I have a great deal of

:47:08.:47:11.

issues with. This day was designated to remember those who

:47:11.:47:16.

died. If you have an issue with becoming a peace activist and

:47:16.:47:20.

remembering those civilians who died, or some issue about having an

:47:20.:47:26.

informed debate about the right to protest, that is another issue. But

:47:26.:47:30.

why hijack Armistice Day and the fact that we have identified one

:47:30.:47:40.
:47:40.:47:40.

day... Remembrance belongs to us... We have identified one day will we

:47:40.:47:44.

can remember the war dead and if people want the legitimate right to

:47:44.:47:48.

protest, which had absolutely endorse, and it is a low blow to

:47:48.:47:53.

bring in if the Nazis, that is a different conversation. In it is

:47:53.:48:00.

the same conversation. Let's talk to Anjem Choudary, the spokesperson

:48:00.:48:07.

for Muslims Against Crusades. It is a protest which is offensive to

:48:07.:48:17.

many people. How do you justify that? Good morning. The protest is

:48:17.:48:21.

going to be very provocative and I'm sure people will disagree but

:48:21.:48:28.

what I put to your guests and listeners is that the past dead are

:48:28.:48:32.

being used to justified the war which is taking place and his

:48:32.:48:38.

engaging far more Muslims than Afghanistan and Iraq? The reality

:48:38.:48:46.

is that the poppy is being used to hide those crimes, behind flag-

:48:46.:48:50.

waving and ceremony. There are dead that it to be remembered but

:48:50.:48:54.

they're mostly on the side of the Muslims and because of the

:48:54.:49:01.

occupation of Muslim land, they are not remembered. Can I ask, for

:49:01.:49:06.

those hundreds and thousands of people who want to spend one minute

:49:06.:49:09.

or two minutes in silence, remembering the dead, members of

:49:09.:49:14.

their family, perhaps fathers and grandfathers and grandmothers,

:49:14.:49:24.
:49:24.:49:49.

perhaps children, why take that We apologise for this interruption.

:49:49.:49:59.

We hope to have you back very If we can force a withdrawal, it is

:49:59.:50:03.

worth it. I do not think that that publication of hundreds or

:50:03.:50:10.

thousands of people slaughtered and even tortured in Afghanistan and

:50:10.:50:16.

Iraq can outweigh any kind of discomfort that people will feel if

:50:16.:50:24.

their flag is burnt. I want to ask, because the question is, this is a

:50:24.:50:28.

protest that is so offensive to those people who are trying to

:50:28.:50:32.

remember the war dead that it should be banned. And I should

:50:32.:50:37.

apologise, we did go off air for a moment. If the protest was banned,

:50:37.:50:43.

what would you do? We would continue to raise our voices about

:50:43.:50:47.

what is taking place in terms of foreign policy. It will not be the

:50:47.:50:52.

last demonstration. But I think the general public needs to be aware of

:50:52.:50:59.

what is taking place in their name. Why is it that politicians are the

:50:59.:51:07.

first ones to wear poppies? They have a foreign policy to occupy

:51:08.:51:13.

these places. I grandfather came from Russia to escape persecution

:51:13.:51:18.

as a Jewish boy and one of the things he did when he became

:51:18.:51:21.

naturalised is he fought in the First World War and he volunteered

:51:21.:51:26.

in the Second World War but was too old. He was a huge patriarch and he

:51:26.:51:30.

accepted that and he became part of this country, he would join the

:51:30.:51:33.

team spirit but that did not deny him the right to criticise things

:51:33.:51:37.

when he did not accept government policy but he did this and the way

:51:37.:51:42.

that would not be offensive. That is the duty of freedom. This

:51:42.:51:46.

country bends over backwards to endorse multiculturalism and the

:51:46.:51:50.

fact that we can accommodate different ethnic views, so why is

:51:50.:51:55.

that paid back by choosing a very special day in our British calendar,

:51:55.:52:00.

and I say this as a Jewish girl who was proud of my own traditions, why

:52:00.:52:04.

choose something that is so important as an opportunity to

:52:04.:52:11.

raise protest? The red poppy, the genesis wasn't the blood-soaked

:52:11.:52:17.

trenches of the First World War. It isn't about the war against Iraq.

:52:17.:52:22.

There are Muslim voices calling for these protests to be banned. Saira

:52:22.:52:27.

Khan is from the Muslim Women's Organisation, inspire. Why should

:52:27.:52:33.

this be banned? Good morning. Before I answer this, I want to say

:52:33.:52:37.

that as a British Muslim woman, I find the views of this man to be

:52:37.:52:42.

vile and disgusting. This man repeatedly states that our British

:52:42.:52:47.

soldiers should burn in hell. He has clarified the actions of the

:52:47.:52:51.

9/11 and 7/7 terrorists. He is a fascist and his record is far

:52:51.:52:56.

removed from the principles of the Islamic faith. I find it deeply

:52:57.:53:02.

offensive and disappointing that this man receives so much exposure,

:53:02.:53:06.

disproportionate air time, to preach this message at a time close

:53:06.:53:12.

to Remembrance Sunday. In answering the question, well, that is a

:53:12.:53:15.

decision for the Home Secretary and the police to make in deciding

:53:15.:53:19.

whether a public disorder would be a direct consequence of this

:53:19.:53:23.

individual's right to his freedom of expression. I find it highly

:53:23.:53:27.

insensitive and deeply provocative that he is burning copies and he

:53:27.:53:33.

shows such disrespect to our great servicemen and women, including my

:53:33.:53:37.

grandfather, who served in the Second World War and fought against

:53:37.:53:40.

the oppression of the fascist radiology, which is what this man

:53:40.:53:49.

stands for. My father was in Normandy as well. To ensure that

:53:49.:53:56.

family feeling. The point is that over remembrance, the way that you

:53:56.:54:00.

remember affects not just what you think of the past but how we act in

:54:00.:54:06.

the future and how we engage in wars. Is there no merit in the

:54:06.:54:11.

point That the way we remember needs to be looked a very hard? It

:54:11.:54:15.

can reinforce wars and glorified them if it isn't handled correctly

:54:15.:54:20.

and it can lead us into interventions that we later regret?

:54:20.:54:25.

Definitely, but my issue is the actions of people like Anjem

:54:25.:54:30.

Choudary, who give a very skewed perception of Muslims in this

:54:31.:54:36.

country and I am tired of the braying of this donkey, because the

:54:36.:54:40.

reality is that British Muslims are serving in the armed forces. There

:54:40.:54:44.

are 600 British Muslims who have vowed to serve in the armed forces

:54:44.:54:48.

today and we need to acknowledge that. And there will be hundreds of

:54:48.:54:54.

thousands of Muslims who have died for Britain. I do want to introduce

:54:54.:55:01.

Stephen Brown, whose son, James, died fighting in Afghanistan. We do

:55:01.:55:08.

appreciate you taking part. What is the prospect of this protest making

:55:08.:55:17.

you feel? Listen to every point, there are valid points, but

:55:17.:55:23.

personally, James was my own son and he showed so much bravery in

:55:23.:55:28.

his life before he went into the army, and to hear people condemning

:55:28.:55:38.
:55:38.:55:41.

Remembrance Day is terrible. I am so sorry that obviously, it is

:55:41.:55:45.

having that effect, but I want to ask you about this argument that

:55:45.:55:49.

you must struggle with... One of the things that soldiers fight for

:55:49.:55:55.

is the freedom to say some very difficult and offensive things.

:55:55.:56:03.

When you hear that argument, what does that make you think? Soldiers

:56:03.:56:08.

saying offence of things? The fact that soldiers fight for the freedom

:56:08.:56:12.

that allows people to say offensive things because in a repressive

:56:12.:56:18.

regime, that free speech is censored? I agree with people

:56:18.:56:25.

having the right to protest but this protest is more than we can

:56:26.:56:33.

handle, we should not allow that to happen. Thank you. Freedom of

:56:33.:56:36.

expression is about freedom of expression and the problem is

:56:36.:56:40.

people think that means you can manifest your opinions any way you

:56:40.:56:44.

like. I could have set fire to the Koran on the programme, would that

:56:44.:56:48.

be a meaningful way of protesting against radicalised Muslims? I

:56:48.:56:54.

don't think so. Well, we have to end it. The vote is in. At the

:56:54.:57:00.

beginning, we asked if Britain is full up. 94% said yes, it is. 6%

:57:00.:57:09.

said know. Jonathan? 94%? When you ask questions like that, you tend

:57:09.:57:14.

to get opinion polls reflecting those kinds of people are when you

:57:14.:57:18.

ask, who would you like to exclude, people do not want to exclude

:57:18.:57:21.

people and when you press further and say, what about your own

:57:21.:57:25.

community? Everybody thinks their own community is all right and as

:57:25.:57:28.

the other communities that they don't know about. You have to treat

:57:28.:57:32.

these opinion polls very carefully and with great sensitivity and when

:57:32.:57:37.

you look beneath the figures, what you find is that the rhetoric about

:57:37.:57:41.

Britain being full up just falls apart, it really does. Thank you

:57:41.:57:49.

very much to all of my guests. A a and to my guests and the studio, in

:57:49.:57:52.

image cough, Jonathan and Angela Epstein. And all the guests who

:57:52.:57:56.

joined me on the webcam. Andrew Bishop Stephen Lowe, he joined us

:57:56.:58:00.

earlier. And apologies for the fact that we fell off the air very

:58:00.:58:10.
:58:10.:58:11.

briefly. At I'm sure that you did stick with us. Finishing this

:58:11.:58:19.

thought, 94%? Just final thoughts? There are a lot of Jon Leyne

:58:19.:58:23.

warriors who are very harsh when they do this but people are kind of

:58:23.:58:26.

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