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Not so much hot off the press, as straight from the morgue - the | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
final edition of the News of the World. But before it was shut down | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
we opened it up in our millions every Sunday. Has our appetite for | :00:17. | :00:27. | |
:00:27. | :00:40. | ||
Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Morning Live. | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
So here's a question for you: Why did the hacks on the News of the | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
World think private information was what we wanted to hear? Are we to | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
blame for what they did? It's the big morality tale this week and | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
this is your chance to take on the journalists yourselves. And with | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
hypocrisy on our minds, is it wrong to fake religious belief to get | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
your kids into a good school? Our guests are all headline-makers. | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
You can read Peter Hitchens' column today in the Mail on Sunday, | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
alongside pages of celebrity gossip. But he quit the Express because he | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
couldn't stomach its new owner's other publishing interests. Paul | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
McMullan, ex-News of the World, is a biter who got bit. Actor, Hugh | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
Grant, secretly filmed him fessing up to phone hacking. Derek Hatton | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
was hounded for 15 years by more than Murdoch's men. He was the | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
Militant Liverpool leftie the whole media loved to hate. | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
We want to know what you think. You can challenge our guests by webcam | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
on Skype. This is your chance to give your views on twitter or by | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
phone. Phone calls cost up to five phone. Phone calls cost up to five | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
pence a minute from a BT landline. Calls from mobiles and other | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
networks may cost considerably more. Texts will be charged at your | :01:48. | :01:56. | |
Did you take your high horse when you heard about the News of the | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
World this week, or take a good look at yourself? The paper might | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
have been hacking people's phones but millions read the stories. | :02:02. | :02:12. | |
:02:12. | :02:13. | ||
Peter here thinks if you bought it you deserve it. Do you agree? | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
Today is the death knell of the News of the World, mourned by its | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
staff and perhaps up to 7 million readers. It is a paper that has | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
been part of British culture for 168 years. We have been victims of | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
a witch-hunt by some newspapers and I hope they are happy today as they | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
dance on the grave of a British institution. But many say that | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
institution has betrayed our trust by hacking the phones of murder | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
victims and the families of dead soldiers. He even though we knew it | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
was illegal, there was hardly an outcry when we discovered they | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
hacked into celebrity phones. The gossip was a laptop. He it has been | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
hard to make large portions of the population to care about it in a | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
visceral way, because so many victims of phone hacking were rich | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
or famous. Violating the privacy of murder victims, it seems, was a | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
step too far. Before we cast the first stone, could the tabloid | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
hacking scam will be our own fault? The tablets have bent and broken | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
the law for decades and often they have uncovered genuine political | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
scandals and brought down the powerful and political. But they | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
have ruined families and dredge cutters for celebrity gossip and | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
the public have loved every minute. Can we complain if they break the | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
law to give us the gossip we crave? This week, are two because tabloids | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
were slapped with contempt of court charges her over coverage of her | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
Joanna Yeates's murder. But those details fascinated the public. Some | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
say the reason we find ourselves in this situation is the press viewed | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
itself as a buffer law and a toothless regulator, which could | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
face the chop as well was not taming the beast. But all | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
newspapers are fighting to survive because we are buying fewer papers. | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
They're trying to compete with rumour and gossip on social | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
networking sites which are not governed by the same laws as the | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
press. Can we blame them for providing us with a scandal we | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
queue up to buy? Many argue the cornerstone of democracy is a free | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
press. But tabloid hold up a mirror to our own values. So should we | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
have used them for sinking into the gutter and perhaps dragging some | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
police and politicians with them? Or is our own appetite for sleaze | :04:40. | :04:48. | |
to blame? Is it? I think it is. I was in a taxi coming here and the | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
driver said, this phone hacking is dreadful isn't it? And they said, | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
do you buy the paper? And he said, to be in since it stopped doing it, | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
he does not buy it any more because there isn't much else in it. So he | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
doesn't? It is not as hard-hitting as it used to be, not as subversive. | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
That's the question for our text vote. Is an immoral Press our | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
fault? If you think it is, text the word VOTE, followed by YES. If you | :05:18. | :05:26. | |
think it isn't text VOTE followed by NO. We'll show how you voted at | :05:26. | :05:34. | |
the end of the programme. Is that the case, Peter papers have to do | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
it because the readers demanded? is not as simple as that. This | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
country has gone through a huge educational decline and a huge | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
moral decline in the past 50 years. At the same time you have the | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
enormous influence of Rupert Murdoch, a man who is quite | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
prepared to exploit this to the uttermost and to actually forced a | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
lot of other papers to follow him down that path will stop you sound | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
like you are of resolving journalists of any responsibility? | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
Everybody is responsible for their own actions. If you want to know | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
why this has happened, look at the News of the World 50 years ago it | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
is mostly about trial reports of particular murders, usually | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
domestic murders. Now it is about scandal and celebrity gossip. These | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
things are not the same. The last edition of the News of the World, | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
is it produces a museum of the British press on how totally | :06:32. | :06:39. | |
different popular newspapers were, more literate, full of information. | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
And there has been a transformation. Circulation has dropped? | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
Circulation has dropped recently. I think the reason is because the | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
fall in educational standards and reading is falling out of fashion | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
as an entertainment. How many people under 30 read for pleasure | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
anymore? I'm not offering an excuse, but if you want to see an | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
explanation, you cannot just say it is the papers. People have | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
developed appetites for things which the papers satisfied. The | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
basic problem remains this, if you want to have a free press, it has | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
to be independent. To be independent it has to be | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
commercially set successful. To be commercially successful it has to | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
be popular. These things are popular, so we buy them in our | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
droves? The companies spend billions every year on advertising. | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
No they employee advertising agents, they employ experts and consultants | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
to advertise. When they advertise their make money and we buy the | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
products. If that did not work, they won't do it. They wouldn't | :07:46. | :07:54. | |
spend billions. I am sure, if an advert on page 53, half way down is | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
going to convince us to buy the product, then certainly, headline | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
after headline, after headline will make us buy the product. So the | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
newspapers have a massive influence in the way we think. If we took up | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
the celebrity gossip and the stuff based on the allegedly illegal | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
methods, would we still buy these papers? Will we have a taste for | :08:15. | :08:22. | |
the alternative? Paul says, a taxi- driver said it is not the same | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
without it? You will meet another taxi driver tomorrow and he will | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
say the opposite. It is not just sleaze. The famous comment from the | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
worst Gutter paper that has hit the face of this country, the Sun | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
newspaper, will stop they were very proud to say we influence people to | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
vote in a particular way. When it goes wrong, it is your fault. You | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
cannot have your cake and eat it. Those who say you are what you eat, | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
you are what you eat in terms of the propaganda as well. That is not | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
really true. Once a month, the News of the World has done a credit | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
where the story. I think naming and shaming, I remember writing, and I | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
was proud of that. Conceivably, by putting a picture up of a | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
paedophile, they may have saved the child's life. Maybe a couple of | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
children. But, the next week we have a Premiership footballer has | :09:24. | :09:31. | |
A3 in a bed, whatever! Y one is important for the other, you need | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
to sell 5 million copies so when you have a genuine political | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
scandal, people will read it. If you only sold 100 copies, no one | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
would know the deputy Prime Minister had been lying to his wife | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
and to the electorate. You do need the titillating nonsense, if you | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
like. Do you think people would buy the paper just to read those | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
political stories? If you want to read that kind of thing you would | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
buy the Independent. How many people by the Independent? Hardly | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
anybody. The only reason that is true that over the years the likes | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
of Murdoch have but billions into ensuring we are convinced that what | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
we want to read is the sleaze and everything else. In real terms, how | :10:17. | :10:25. | |
many people would rather think about Ryan Giggs or anybody else in | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
terms of their sporting prowess, rather than what they did outside? | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
Tiger Woods, I used to love watching him play golf. Then the | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
press did this big thing on the women he had. Suddenly I cannot | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
watch him playing golf. I would rather watch him play golf than | :10:41. | :10:48. | |
read about the women he has been with. Was that the media's fault? | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
He has to apologise to his wife, but not to me. I do not occur. I | :10:53. | :11:00. | |
just want to watch him play golf. Peter? I know nothing about golf. | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
If the question is being made to simple and you have to remember it | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
is true, that if you publish a newspaper purely composed of | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
important political stories, not many people would read it. If you | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
look at the Murdoch empire, the Times, I don't think it has made | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
any money in modern history and it is being subsidised heavily by the | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
other papers. We get a very powerful and important serious | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
newspaper, financed by popular journalism which is a strong | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
argument for having popular journalism alongside it. I don't | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
think you could have a major popular paper unique to this | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
country, a popular press that is influential in politics. Although | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
it is not perfect, it keeps politics immensely cleaner. | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
wonder why you see the Times is a powerful, important paper, clearly | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
it is I like it. The Sun newspaper is more powerful because what is | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
the readership of that? It is about 7 million. The readership of the | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
Times it is a tiny amount. But one could not function without the | :12:12. | :12:21. | |
other. It is business, it is not the reader's fault. They need a | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
multi-million selling tabloids to form their other businesses, is | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
that your point? To say it is the reader's false is like saying we | :12:29. | :12:39. | |
:12:39. | :12:39. | ||
are not responsible for what we do. -- fault. What it is true to say, | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
readers have changed. And that is because society has changed, in my | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
view very much for the worse. cannot say you have had no | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
influence in that, Peter. Newspaper, here at the year have made a | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
difference, not only in terms of what they write as journalists, but | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
the way they behave. Twenty-five years ago 6,000 print workers were | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
thrown out of News International. The very same journalists or their | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
forefathers were brought in a cross picket lines to produce newspapers | :13:12. | :13:21. | |
which would decry those people. They were brought in again 6,000 | :13:21. | :13:28. | |
print workers. They have to take responsibility. This has nothing to | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
do with the subject under discussion, absolutely nothing. I'm | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
not making a great moral case for myself, I have done what I can. | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
say it decline in education, morals and society and perhaps Derrick's | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
point is to what extent does your newspaper and other papers Malta | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
that? I think we try to fight against it. The reason I work for | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
the paper I work for now, is because I care about that. That is | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
the Daily Mail? It is the Mail on Sunday. And they are separate | :14:06. | :14:13. | |
newspapers. Same owners? To what extent are the media for moulders | :14:13. | :14:23. | |
:14:23. | :14:23. | ||
I think there is a lack or loss of professionalism in journalism now. | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
Journalists are the symptoms, not the disease. The other things | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
talked around the issue are about the massive, the ties Asian of | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
everything. If you think about why journalists are not professional | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
any more, it has come out of your discussion that they are always | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
trying to give what the readers will want to buy. By think true | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
professionalism requires more of a sense of objectivity and | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
independence values -- I think. Journalists do not have those | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
Independent values any more. They have been taken over by the market. | :14:57. | :15:04. | |
Peter? I think that is simply untrue. There are huge amounts of | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
journalists with values to stand up for them and state them in | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
newspapers. If you want to find a spectrum of independent critical | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
opinion, and a very broad and combative one, you have to look a | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
long way to find anything better than you will find in the huge | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
variety of the competitive, independent British press. I am not | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
saying we are perfect, but on that basis it is good. I therefore | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
challenge will viewers to open up a newspaper and dour content analysis | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
about how much his personality driven, celebrity driven, about | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
American foreign policy it will be a segment on what Condoleezza Rice | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
or Michelle Obama is wearing. It is not about Concepts or factual | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
information. Journalists are now part of the entertainment industry. | :15:50. | :15:58. | |
They are not conceptual writers. Your course are part of that same | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
industry by appearing on the programme, but that is not | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
invalidated by that. We all have to get our views across the way that | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
appeals to people. It does not mean that views cannot be honestly | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
stated and have integrity. As far as I am able to talk to you, it is | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
in the medium of soundbites, and I am as guilty as you of that but I | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
am not kidding myself that anything you or I is saying is particularly | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
conceptually profound all well developed. Speak for yourself! I | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
think quite hard about what I say. Andy Flanagan is director of the | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
Christian Socialist Movement. If media magnates are selling us what | :16:38. | :16:47. | |
we want, is it bus that lacks self- control? -- is it us. I think we | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
need to take a long, hard look at ourselves. We have been blaming | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
other people, bankers, politicians, the media and it has been said the | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
axis of evil runs through the heart of every individual. We all need to | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
take a long hard look at ourselves. In reality, in these times, we are | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
more likely to know about the private lives of the soap operas | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
than our actual neighbours. A few years ago Robbie Williams said Let | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
Me entertain You, and we all said fine, thank you very much. It is | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
almost inevitable that hour only interaction with society is as | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
consumers, we will struggle and we will be passive. They are good | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
examples of people standing up and saying we are not consumers, | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
looking at the London citizens and churches up and down the country to | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
say that community is more than about receiving it is about giving | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
as well. Graham, you are a commercial litigator and represent | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
commercial victims of phone hacking. When people read about these | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
allegations they were very shocked. But of course, they had read the | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
stories as well. Is it hard to blame them when that material is | :18:03. | :18:11. | |
dangled in front of them? I believe our popular tabloid media have, | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
since Fleet Street moved away from Fleet Street, she slowly but surely | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
weaned the public on to a sugary sweet diet of sensationalist | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
reporting in order to sell more newspapers. That sort a | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
straightforward manner ties in of sensationalist stories was made to | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
sell the papers, so slowly and gradually we were directed toward | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
what would sell more papers in order to fulfil the business model | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
that the various newspaper groups decided would be more effective for | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
them. They reduced their newsroom staff and porting pre-packaged | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
stories from various suppliers. -- they brought in pre-packaged | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
stories. That is probably the source of the situation we find | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
ourselves in when newspapers like the News Of The World have found a | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
business model that produces a very stark and clear return on their | :19:08. | :19:17. | |
investment for the cheapest cost. Paul? I am a journalist, and I | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
simply keep the Journal of the day. I go out and see things, talk to | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
people and I write it down. But equally... You do have a choice | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
about what she cover though? and No. The Daily Mirror is a | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
mirror of our times. We don't make it up, we see it and be right about | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
it. I suppose I have been doing this for about 20 years now, and at | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
times I have done quite a lot of kiss-and-tell stories where the | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
girl does a story about a footballer or a celebrity, and I | :19:51. | :19:59. | |
have actually been quite shocked, I am from Northern Ireland at the | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
moment and it can be quite puritanical, but it is like there | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
is no shame. I was doing a story with one girl and I remember she | :20:10. | :20:17. | |
asked if I wanted to know about how she had sex with her brother. And | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
by did not even though it did not add to the story anyway. Funnily | :20:23. | :20:29. | |
enough, that particular angle of the story did not matter. One I did | :20:29. | :20:39. | |
:20:39. | :20:39. | ||
write fairly recently, and I don't want to libel anyone... | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
certainly do not want you to libel anyone. Someone in the programme | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
Big Brother, a guy this time, had a three in a bed with two girls and | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
they were quite sweet, they had nice families, were fairly middle- | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
class and the details they were prepared to tell me, I was just | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
writing them down, and it was so intimate that you wondered if they | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
had no shame. I'm sorry, Paul, but those girls did not wake up one | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
morning and thought they had a great idea here. They did. They | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
said can we have �10,000 please! The reason they got into the | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
position was they had seen it newspaper after newspaper, year | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
after year, particularly since a whole Wapping things started, they | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
saw that that is what you do today to get a few quid. Because they | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
have seen it, and if it hadn't happened in the past, they wouldn't | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
have talked to you. They wouldn't have known they could get 10 grand | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
for it. We have mentioned footballers and the programme Big | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
Brother in this discussion and various showbiz people. This is not | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
just a matter of newspapers. Newspapers did not invent Big | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
Brother, television did, and the modern football industry was | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
invented largely by television and indeed stoked up very much by | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
satellite TV and this whole business of football millionaires. | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
To blame this on the press is absurd. But the press get a lot of | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
money out of programmes like Big brother's -- big brother because of | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
the money around it. Newspapers operate in a society where other | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
things happen, which they can't necessarily control. But quite | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
rightly people are getting excited about packing into the phones, | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
particularly about some of the instances which are now being | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
exposed. Remember, what is the power in this country that can | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
record your phone calls? That is the government. They are the people | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
who are ultimately a far greater threat to people's privacy than | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
anything the press can do. If you have a week -- a weak and feeble | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
Press, as they do on the Continent, you have a dormant -- you have a | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
week ago of -- stronger government. If you have a muzzled press, you | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
have an unregulated government. just want to go back to the money | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
aspect of the story. Paul, if you had not offered money, do you think | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
you would have got the same access and level and detail? For no, 100 %. | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
I know they wanted to book a holiday and they needed a bit more | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
money. I remember saying this isn't very good and only worth a couple | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
of grand, and they went, OK, maybe we did it five times a night. I | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
said, is that all? I think we got to a ludicrous figure of 17 times | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
over. I said, you're just making it up. How can you tell the difference | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
if people are incentive vised by money? It is a big carrot to dangle. | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
�10,000 of it is a great one, �500 if you didn't do much. Graham, if | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
you are still with us, is that part of the problem, the money involved? | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
It certainly is. I am sitting here shaking my head, listening to what | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
Paul saying, and it is so clear that they are dangling the cash in | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
front of these girls and manipulating them. This is all part | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
of the business model, to promote the newspaper and to get the girls | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
to reveal more and more. Yet he sits there surprised that they | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
would embellish all life, because that is what they are doing with | :24:23. | :24:30. | |
the story. -- embellish for life. And then he willingly publishes a | :24:30. | :24:37. | |
story which is a breach of privacy. The Big Brother member actually | :24:37. | :24:46. | |
loved it. You are trying to rationalise and justify... The is a | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
guy living his life in public and two girls selling -- saying he did | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
it 17 times a night. Once again, a News Of The World journalist is | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
seeking to justify their position by enlightening the public on | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
something you don't need to know about. The responsibility, that one | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
word, seems to evade you. That is the problem which is a cause or a | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
root of the cause of the problem with that News Of The World. They | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
lost sight of where the line was drawn over accountable | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
responsibility and the sale of newspapers. That is the problem. | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
Let's speak to Neil Hamilton who had a horrific experience at that | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
hands of some papers when false accusations were made against you. | :25:37. | :25:44. | |
Would eliminating money for stories help? The case to which you refer | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
was my wife and I were both accused of participating in a rape, which | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
is completely untrue. And the girl who made up these allegations and | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
subsequently was sent to prison for perjury sold her story to the News | :26:01. | :26:08. | |
Of The World, via Max Clifford, for �50,000. She was entitled to | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
anonymity as an alleged victim of a sex offence, but she sold that | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
anonymity to the News of the world for money. So money is at the root | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
of a lot of these problems. We all know that when people have a story | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
to sell, a newspaper will decide that this isn't sexy enough, let's | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
make it sexier. That is what happens very often. Take the famous | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
case of David Muller and Antonio Sanchez, who was supposed to have | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
us had sex with her in a Chelsea football kit, which is of course | :26:44. | :26:53. | |
untrue. The lurid detail is untrue. The true responsibility lies with | :26:53. | :26:59. | |
the editors and journalists. Neil, we have a bit of a break-up on the | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
line and we are in danger of telling only half the story. | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
Funnily enough, that story came from a phone hack. Oh, am I giving | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
something away. Actually, I probably shouldn't say that. | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
has almost admitted that he has sat down with a girl -- Paul has almost | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
admitted that he has sat down with a girl and said if you give me more, | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
I will give you more money. Somewhere along the line the truce | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
will go. It is so distorted it does not become the truth anymore. I am | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
not surprised at that, and it is not just you. People are -- over | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
years and years have seen stories that have been totally distorted | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
where the truth is almost unrecognisable, but in the past | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
that Lord didn't exist or they did not have the money to go to court. | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
-- that law didn't exist. These things go on, and it is not the | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
sort of journalism I like or want to read and other people feel the | :28:01. | :28:08. | |
same way, but if you want to ask how did the MP expenses San -- | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
scandal get involved, so money changed hands. -- get exposed. It | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
is not always as simple as you would like. Sometimes an | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
independent press will do things you don't like, but if it is | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
independent, that is the way it is going to be. And if you don't want | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
an independent press then see how you like the kind of society where | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
power is not called to account. It is not as independent as I was like | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
it to be that it is a good deal more independent than any other | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
national press I can think of anywhere in the world. Rory | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
Greenslade joins us. -- Roy Greenslade joins us. I beg your | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
pardon, we do not have Roy Greenslade but we hope to get him | :28:47. | :28:54. | |
in a moment. To make a quick point, you remember the Sunday Sport, he | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
went out of business but came back again. In the early 1990s it was | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
really popular with its silly stories about a bus being found on | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
the moon and then a bus found on the Moon with a wheel clamp. But | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
that particular edition sold half- a-million copies, which was more | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
than the Independent and the Observer combined. You know, what | :29:15. | :29:25. | |
:29:25. | :29:27. | ||
What does that say about the people buying the product? It is | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
distressing about the level of education in our society. The one | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
thing Fleet Street has failed at over the past 50 years, is | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
campaigning to do something Steve's -- serious about the state of | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
education in this country. Have you done anything illegal to get a | :29:46. | :29:55. | |
story? No, who did get a story in Bucharest, which I suspect was | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
illegal, but nobody minded. Under Romanian Communist law it was | :30:01. | :30:09. | |
probably an offence. You have been very honest... I have a lawyer | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
telling me to stop implicating myself. Our you concerned about | :30:13. | :30:21. | |
being arrested? I am, I have not been home for about five days, that | :30:21. | :30:27. | |
is why I am still wearing the same suit. The police have asked me into | :30:27. | :30:35. | |
Scotland Yard, not as a witness to arrest me. They did not just say, | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
come involuntarily, it was like you will come in tomorrow. But I have | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
not. They have astute to come in tomorrow. Or they had previously | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
asked you? I have had three requests to go to Scotland Yard to | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
be interviewed under caution which require them arresting me as I | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
walked through the door. I am staying away. I don't think I have | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
done anything that deserves a rest. I am not going to say I have broken | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
the law lots and lots, because they will listen to the tapes. All I | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
have ever tried to do is write a well-researched and truthful | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
articles about what is going on in the world around me. It sounds a | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
bit flippant, what better way to get to the truth and hear it from | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
the horse's mouth perhaps on their own messages. It is a cracking line. | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
I am not going to see them because I don't think I should be arrested. | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
If anybody else in any other walk of life wouldn't last for five | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
minutes because journalists get away with it. We are just trying to | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
do something good, why should you be arrested because you have | :31:48. | :31:55. | |
strayed into Ngorongoro Crater area. Corruption has been councils, which | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
you'll know all about. You don't even know why out me and what I | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
have done. Don't go making it up. But you have done that all of your | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
life, why change now? We will leave it there and with Paul's | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
circumstances hanging in the her, is a moral press of fault? It is | :32:16. | :32:23. | |
the question we are asking at the moment. If you think it is, tex the | :32:23. | :32:33. | |
:32:33. | :32:35. | ||
You only have around five minutes before it closes. | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
Late on the programme - would you lie about your religion to get your | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
children into a good school? And should you have to? We will be | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
speaking to a vicar who says faking it is fine because it gives her a | :32:48. | :32:58. | |
:32:58. | :33:01. | ||
better chance of converting you. Before we let Paul go to face the | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
future, we will ask what else has been spinning our guests moral | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
compasses this week? Peter, you will read about the funeral | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
corteges of soldiers killed in Afghanistan? Yes, when the RAF base | :33:15. | :33:22. | |
at Lyneham closes in September, the dead coming back from Afghanistan | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
will come through Brize Norton. The route that has been proposed to go | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
to the John Radcliffe Hospital now takes them away from any high | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
streets. They are on a bypass and suburban roads, which they could go | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
through the town next to Brize Norton. I am suspicious as to why | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
this is happening. The Government may be taking an opportunity, | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
because they have not liked what has been happening at Wootton | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
Bassett, which was a genuinely spontaneous demonstration of grief | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
and respect. I feel strongly they should be held to account for this | :33:57. | :34:04. | |
and asked repeatedly why it is these possessions won't be able to | :34:04. | :34:10. | |
go down a high street. The there is an official explanation is that it | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
is to urban and taking too many speed bumps which would be | :34:13. | :34:20. | |
inappropriate. There are speed bumps on the bypass route. The | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
Wootton Bassett roots went through narrow streets. It is a much | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
shorter tries from Brize Norton than it was from Lyneham. Every | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
excuse has been put up for this, market traders in Carterton would | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
object for example. It has been knocked down in practice. If the | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
Government is going to have the nerve to send people off to get | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
killed, it it shouldn't have the nerve to prevent people expressing | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
their grief over it when it happens. There is a report out that we will | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
have to work into we are 70. Is it too long? I am frowning because | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
possibly we might have to work a lot longer. Not because anybody | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
says so, it is an inevitability. People are campaigning saying we | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
shouldn't be working until we are 66, but people in the 30s, 40s will | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
have to work a lot longer. One person in every 100 will soon reach | :35:21. | :35:28. | |
100. At the same time, one in three, ten-year-olds are obese. We are not | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
fit enough, the NHS will collapse. There are so many ways to keep fit, | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
there are the gymnasiums, the Government's Back to Work scheme. | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
But we still have this obesity. I cannot believe the people who are | :35:43. | :35:49. | |
saying, I cannot lose weight. Some people cannot, but the vast | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
majority of them are lazy and greedy. People have to be told | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
clearly they will have to work longer, and they have to be fitted | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
to do that for the sake of anybody. That is very right wing. If tis | :36:02. | :36:12. | |
:36:12. | :36:12. | ||
realistic. It is not about right or left. How long do you think you'll | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
have to work? I want to work for ever. Until you drop? Without | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
question. Peter? People do jobs they would like to retire from, but | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
I am very lucky and I do not want to stop it. Could you there to | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
carry on working with the pressure you are under? I retired at 40 and | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
bought a pub. But I still generalise every now and again. | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
Working in a pub is working isn't it? I suppose it is, it is quite | :36:44. | :36:51. | |
hard work as well. Estranged reason for eviction? Why do I do the silly | :36:51. | :36:59. | |
one? This is out of the Sun newspaper. The man faces eviction | :36:59. | :37:09. | |
:37:09. | :37:09. | ||
for singing in his flat and humming. I have been practising how loud you | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
can do it. And she did be a reason for addiction? No, councillors are | :37:15. | :37:22. | |
not some times and will do anything to waive their bit of power. It | :37:22. | :37:32. | |
reminds me about one of the last stories I wrote. A lady had about | :37:32. | :37:40. | |
four cleaners and in their contract, and I saw them, it said "yew bark | :37:40. | :37:48. | |
forbidden from humming Elvis Presley's songs in the House". | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
Humming is annoying, so maybe you should be evicted for it after all? | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
We have been asking is an immoral press our fault? The poll is | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
closing as you could still be charged and we will bring you the | :38:03. | :38:12. | |
result at the end of the programme. Think of the fees, drop to your | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
knees. A common catchphrase at middle-class dinner parties. A | :38:17. | :38:23. | |
fierce parents -- parents are trying to get their kids into a | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
decent school. Derek Hatton says you should do anything for your | :38:28. | :38:36. | |
children's education and the churches deserve it. Is he right? | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
Faith schools are some of the best and most popular in the country and | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
many parents will do anything to get their kids into them. Some | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
atheists and agnostic parents are prepared to drop to their knees and | :38:48. | :38:54. | |
fake a face if it gets their child a chance of a better future. Some | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
of our most high-profile politicians say they are not | :38:56. | :39:03. | |
religious but sent their children to these schools. Do you believe in | :39:03. | :39:12. | |
God? No, I don't. Some people think it is hypocrisy to about two a God | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
you don't think exists. Some schools include a wide range of | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
pupils, but church schools give places based on things like how | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
often parents go to church, volunteering and how early children | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
are baptised. Some parents complained it makes it easier for | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
rich families to get in because they can give up more of their time. | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
The Church issued guidelines saying school should admit more poor | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
children from different faiths and races. Some parents say it is not | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
fair you need faith to get your child through the door of the best | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
Church cools. There is evidence more mixed schools help stop racism | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
and segregation. We want the best for our children but very few can | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
afford to send them to private school. Does this make getting on | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
your knees to a Boyd fees acceptable? | :40:02. | :40:10. | |
What do you think? -- avoid the fees. We are joined by the Reverend | :40:10. | :40:20. | |
:40:20. | :40:20. | ||
Joanna Jepson. Paul has left the room, if not the building. | :40:20. | :40:26. | |
Is it OK to fake it? You're getting them through the door? What people | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
are being asked to do is not fake it, but attend and become part of a | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
church. Certainly from where I am sitting, Church of England, to get | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
your children into the local church school, parents need to attend the | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
church. It is not my place to be ditching their motives for doing | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
that. Derek Hatton, you are on a fierce, if you have the chance of | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
getting your children into a fantastic, Ofsted outstanding | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
writer school, would you go to church? If it was not so serious, | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
it would be very funny, this topic. You have a church, over the years | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
who have been losing numbers by their millions and now the only | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
people who go to church, when they are born, when they get married and | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
when they died. The first two are being ignored, so it is only the | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
latter. The Church is thinking at last there is a way of getting them | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
in. They don't care about the truth, but it is just to get them through | :41:29. | :41:37. | |
the doors. That is not accurate. answer your question, yes, if I had | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
kids of that age and the only good school was the church school, as | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
far as I'm concerned, I would laugh at the church school and say, I | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
will tell the lie because it does not matter. Because you have told | :41:49. | :41:55. | |
lies for all those decades. cannot answer for other particular | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
faiths, but where the Church of England is concerned, as the | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
established face of this country, the deal is, everybody in the | :42:03. | :42:10. | |
country has a priest and a church. Now, we are there to minister to | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
people of all faiths and no faith. It is not down to us and it is not | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
part of our Ministry to say you cannot be a part of this church. If | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
I was to judge the motives of anyone, including myself on | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
particular Sunday mornings in church... Derek Hatton says not | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
only would he come, he would laugh at the church. But that says more | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
about his character. I don't know so much about Church of England | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
schools, but many people I know who go to Catholic Church has to play | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
the game, their Catholic Church knows very well that game is being | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
played. That is why I don't think it says more about me, it is about | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
the church. The Church is encouraging it. They are | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
encouraging people. It is an opportunity to fulfil the Ministry | :43:05. | :43:13. | |
for the local community. Peter, you are religious? It is concerning | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
that a Fleet Street journalist is more concerned about a vicar. | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
Church schools are good, and because they are, they are | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
oversubscribed so they have to select in some way. What you are | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
saying in this process of selection, you are prepared to accept people | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
as far as you know, or very much accept -- suspect are pretending to | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
be Christian believers, so they can get their children into a better | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
school. The school is better because it is a Christian school, | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
that is why it is better. The people sending their child there | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
know that. But they are saying we will be a fierce, even though the | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
school is run on a fierce principles, which are everywhere, | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
they are no good. They want to send their children to Christian schools, | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
they want to ride free on the benefits of Christianity without | :44:03. | :44:09. | |
believing in it. It is unpleasant and it is so fundamentally bad to | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
be dishonest in front of your children. Why don't you talk to | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
someone who did that, Andrew Penman, you faked it and wrote a book about | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
it. You're a fierce, your wife is agnostic, isn't it hypocritical to | :44:22. | :44:31. | |
want your children to go to a I did not enjoy a second of it. I | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
went to church under duress for three or four years. Over the other | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
side of my road was a state Anglican primary school where half | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
of the places went to people who were the children of Anglicans. In | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
other words, it was not a community school at all, it discriminated | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
against the children of parents who were not Anglican. Discriminated in | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
favour of the parents to work, which is a different thing. It was | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
a church school. You must remember these church schools are there | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
because the church set them up before the state could be bothered. | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
The state still give 100 % of the running costs though. And those | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
running costs come from the taxes. The do not come from the church. | :45:16. | :45:26. | |
:45:26. | :45:27. | ||
Derek, can I ever finish a sentence. Everybody stop! It definitely helps | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
if one person speaks. I had not finished my sentence. The taxes | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
come from Christians as well as others. They are entitled to have | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
any education like anyone else. There are a lot of Christian | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
schools in the country whose laws, traditions, Customs and morals are | :45:42. | :45:49. | |
based on Christianity and on which you run. It makes sense to invite | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
people who are going to contribute at home to support what the schools | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
are trying to give in terms of spiritual nourishment and personal | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
development, and the whole coherence that the face message | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
gives. It makes sense to do that, because of the faith communities | :46:06. | :46:13. | |
don't do that, nobody else will, or indeed can. And true, how did you | :46:13. | :46:20. | |
fake your face? I went to church each Sunday. -- had LD Duke take | :46:20. | :46:28. | |
There was some favours cause that seemed to be run by basket cases | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
that should be shut down. We would not get all of the state schools | :46:33. | :46:40. | |
the same as. The subscription numbers speak for themselves. | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
these schools better because they are Christian but because they are | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
oversubscribed and able to select who they get through their doors? | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
The they are oversubscribed because they are good and people recognise | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
there is a coherence to what is being offered that other schools do | :46:55. | :47:03. | |
not provide. I will mention something to you that the Bishop of | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
Oxford said. Church schools need to remember what they are for, and | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
they are not necessarily for nice safe Christians in a nice safe | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
places. They are supposed to offer the ministry to everybody and | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
people of all faiths and local people like Andrew. Not just local | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
religious people. If I had it my way, I would be encouraging parents | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
to come to church, but not discriminating against the children | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
and their family's faith. But for the teachers, I would insist that | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
the teachers subscribe to the face to make it a coherent place. But do | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
you think it is right that the schools get 100 % of their running | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
costs from the government and can then turn round and demand that 50 | :47:53. | :47:59. | |
%, and if they said 90 % of the total costs were from the state, | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
and 10 % were from the church, then you could argue that there was | :48:02. | :48:10. | |
fairness. Derek, the government does not have any money. That comes | :48:10. | :48:16. | |
from taxes, from people earning. The majority of people in the | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
country are not churchgoers. That does not mean they do not want this | :48:21. | :48:30. | |
You have been involved in the running of schools, so these their | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
benefit of children not from a fate to go to a fate school? Is there | :48:34. | :48:41. | |
are benefiting children lying about it? -- a Faith's School. A I find | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
the conversation laughable. Let's forget about the religion itself | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
for a moment and think about the parents in your studio talking | :48:47. | :48:54. | |
about the fact that the Church is not deserving. What a great premise | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
on which to educate your own children, on a life. And if your | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
son says he cheats on your exam, he could say that his whole presence | :49:05. | :49:12. | |
in the school is a lie. Can you blame parents for wanting the best | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
for their children and if the best is a local fetes call them wanting | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
them to go there? I can't blame children for wanting their parents | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
to have -- parents for wanting their children to have a good | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
education. I know that faith schools are working up trying to | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
catch up to the overall standards, but religion itself is not a free- | :49:35. | :49:45. | |
for-all. Any sort of school has to involve the criteria of the school. | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
It is important that the rabbi is making a distinction between | :49:49. | :49:55. | |
religion and faith. You can fake religion, but she cannot fake faith. | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
From the point of view of the priest, who were my to judge the | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
condition of any one of my congregation's heart and spirit | :50:02. | :50:10. | |
before God? -- who am I to judge. You cannot legislate for that. | :50:10. | :50:16. | |
Peter, you endorsed the point that the Rabbi makes. It is so | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
fundamental. People learn by example above all. If they see | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
their parents cheating, they will learn to cheat. It is the most | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
extraordinary are responsible thing to do to cheat in this way, | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
particularly to cheat for advantage, which is a particularly nasty form | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
of it. The punishment that these parents deserve this for their | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
children to grow up as Christians and to forgive them for the | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
terrible things they have done. is not cheating if the churches | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
opening up their ministry and service to families to say, Look, | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
we have something to offer and we are here to serve you. I think of | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
my god-daughter who did not grow up in a church-going family. When she | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
was 12 years old she went to do a school project in her local rural | :51:04. | :51:10. | |
church and ended up being so interested in its -- in it, and she | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
got the whole family going to church, and at the age of 12 she | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
decided to be baptised and confirmed and is now a committed | :51:17. | :51:25. | |
Christian. To make a point to Joanna, the difficulties here is | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
that they might be intended advantages for the Church, but it | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
is impossible for a minister of the Church to bear false witness or say | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
that it is all right to do so. That is pretty high in the Commandments | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
that you cannot do that. John Cox is a former director of education | :51:42. | :51:48. | |
for faith schools and a retired Archdeacon. John, is it useful to | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
have them in that even if their parents do not believe, or is it | :51:53. | :51:59. | |
simply a falsehood that you find offensive? I find it difficult | :51:59. | :52:06. | |
about the integrity of the person, but it -- to have children from | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
none of face for families is part of the distinctive nature of the | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
Church in England's schooling. They are there for the community as well | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
as the members of the Church. And part of the distinction of the | :52:16. | :52:23. | |
Church of England school is that it is open and inclusive to those of | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
no faith, other faiths and that faith. So why do parents feel they | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
have to fake this in order to get in? Because they want their best | :52:32. | :52:39. | |
education for their children. But the facts rather less than half of | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
Church of England schools have control on their admissions policy. | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
The rest are covered by local authority admissions. Derek Hatton | :52:48. | :52:56. | |
is wrong to say that the Church Schools do not pay anything. I said | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
that 90 % of the total cost comes from the government and they paid | :53:00. | :53:07. | |
10 %. They paid 10 % of the capital costs. Neil Hamilton is still with | :53:07. | :53:14. | |
us in his role as a former faiths school teacher. Is discriminating | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
on the basis of faith keeping standards up and are the fate | :53:20. | :53:26. | |
schools worried about losing the pushy parents? -- faith schools. | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
I am entirely in favour of faith schools and I think they give a | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
moral grounding two children. I am not against the Church | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
discriminating in favour of its own at all. In a country where the | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
education system was entirely funded by individuals themselves | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
rather than by the state, this would not be an issue. But because | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
the state takes so much from us in taxes people cannot afford to do | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
that, so the issue of public policy is there, but otherwise people | :53:56. | :54:04. | |
would not see this as a problem at all. Teaching by example, I am a | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
great believer in that, but I do not think that the lying to get | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
into a school comes from that. The vast majority of churchgoers know | :54:12. | :54:18. | |
very well that parents are playing the game, and if one of my kids | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
came home and said he cheated in an exam and I would not say it was the | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
same thing. Of course it is not the same thing. What that shows is the | :54:27. | :54:35. | |
bankruptcy of that type of argument. You would not like being told it | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
was the same thing because it would put the responsibility on you, but | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
it would still be true, and it is not really possible for the church | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
schools to put these people through some kind of Inquisition to | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
discover if they really believe. It is not the fault of the school or | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
the vicar, it is only the fault of the parents and I stress this again, | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
if people think a theism is so wonderful, set up a few schools, | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
and see if people want to come to them and if if they get | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
oversubscribed, we will know that atheist schools are fantastic. We | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
know that Christians schools are better because they are Christian. | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
There are plenty of non-religious schools that are oversubscribed. | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
The that is not the point being discussed here. In this particular | :55:22. | :55:30. | |
case, it is in very many communities that if you want a good | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
primary education, it is the church schools that provide it. That is | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
not a coincidence. We should be celebrating that. Underneath all of | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
this is a kind of paranoia about the place that faith has in our | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
society altogether, and I think there is a greater discussion to be | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
had about that. Why can't you be generous enough to just celebrate | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
the good that Christian faith and the Church brings to our society? | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
cannot celebrate what church schools can do to people. It breeds | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
a discrimination and hatred. That is nonsense. That is absolute | :56:09. | :56:16. | |
nonsense. One parent in Northern Ireland was throwing stones at a | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
child. That is not faith, that is human nature hiding behind a | :56:22. | :56:29. | |
smokescreen of religion. I want to let you know that your survey votes | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
are in. At the beginning of the programme we asked if an immoral | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
press is our fault? While we have been discussing, you have been | :56:37. | :56:45. | |
voting. You told us, 71 % of those who sent us a text said yes, it is | :56:45. | :56:54. | |
our fault. 29 % say no. So 71 % of people take it on the chin, Derek. | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
It is one of those surveys that happens and they go one way or | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
another. An awful lot of people don't want to accept that it is | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
somehow their fault for reading it. Just as they have been fed up time | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
and again that they should read that nonsense and lies, equally, | :57:09. | :57:16. | |
when it comes to saying it was their fault, I have no problem with | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
that. We need to be thinking about what we collude with and there are | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
questions of power, integrity and responsibility, and we have to ask | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
ourselves at this break point, are we going to collude with the next | :57:30. | :57:36. | |
publication? The press cannot moralise Society on its own. The | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
press can help, and some of it does try and then it gets criticism when | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
it does, and we get accused of moral preaching, but the more we do, | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
the better it will be for everyone. You can continue that debate on our | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
website. Thank you to all of you who have taken part today. My | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
thanks to Peter Hitchens, Derek Hatton and the Reverend Joanna | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
Jepson in the studio. And to Paul McMullan who joined us earlier. | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
Please do not text or call the phone lines, they are closed, but | :58:06. | :58:10. |