Episode 3 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 3

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Not so much hot off the press, as straight from the morgue - the

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final edition of the News of the World. But before it was shut down

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we opened it up in our millions every Sunday. Has our appetite for

:00:17.:00:27.
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Good morning, and welcome to Sunday Morning Live.

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So here's a question for you: Why did the hacks on the News of the

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World think private information was what we wanted to hear? Are we to

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blame for what they did? It's the big morality tale this week and

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this is your chance to take on the journalists yourselves. And with

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hypocrisy on our minds, is it wrong to fake religious belief to get

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your kids into a good school? Our guests are all headline-makers.

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You can read Peter Hitchens' column today in the Mail on Sunday,

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alongside pages of celebrity gossip. But he quit the Express because he

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couldn't stomach its new owner's other publishing interests. Paul

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McMullan, ex-News of the World, is a biter who got bit. Actor, Hugh

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Grant, secretly filmed him fessing up to phone hacking. Derek Hatton

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was hounded for 15 years by more than Murdoch's men. He was the

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Militant Liverpool leftie the whole media loved to hate.

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We want to know what you think. You can challenge our guests by webcam

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on Skype. This is your chance to give your views on twitter or by

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phone. Phone calls cost up to five phone. Phone calls cost up to five

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pence a minute from a BT landline. Calls from mobiles and other

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networks may cost considerably more. Texts will be charged at your

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Did you take your high horse when you heard about the News of the

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World this week, or take a good look at yourself? The paper might

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have been hacking people's phones but millions read the stories.

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Peter here thinks if you bought it you deserve it. Do you agree?

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Today is the death knell of the News of the World, mourned by its

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staff and perhaps up to 7 million readers. It is a paper that has

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been part of British culture for 168 years. We have been victims of

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a witch-hunt by some newspapers and I hope they are happy today as they

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dance on the grave of a British institution. But many say that

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institution has betrayed our trust by hacking the phones of murder

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victims and the families of dead soldiers. He even though we knew it

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was illegal, there was hardly an outcry when we discovered they

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hacked into celebrity phones. The gossip was a laptop. He it has been

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hard to make large portions of the population to care about it in a

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visceral way, because so many victims of phone hacking were rich

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or famous. Violating the privacy of murder victims, it seems, was a

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step too far. Before we cast the first stone, could the tabloid

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hacking scam will be our own fault? The tablets have bent and broken

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the law for decades and often they have uncovered genuine political

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scandals and brought down the powerful and political. But they

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have ruined families and dredge cutters for celebrity gossip and

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the public have loved every minute. Can we complain if they break the

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law to give us the gossip we crave? This week, are two because tabloids

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were slapped with contempt of court charges her over coverage of her

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Joanna Yeates's murder. But those details fascinated the public. Some

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say the reason we find ourselves in this situation is the press viewed

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itself as a buffer law and a toothless regulator, which could

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face the chop as well was not taming the beast. But all

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newspapers are fighting to survive because we are buying fewer papers.

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They're trying to compete with rumour and gossip on social

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networking sites which are not governed by the same laws as the

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press. Can we blame them for providing us with a scandal we

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queue up to buy? Many argue the cornerstone of democracy is a free

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press. But tabloid hold up a mirror to our own values. So should we

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have used them for sinking into the gutter and perhaps dragging some

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police and politicians with them? Or is our own appetite for sleaze

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to blame? Is it? I think it is. I was in a taxi coming here and the

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driver said, this phone hacking is dreadful isn't it? And they said,

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do you buy the paper? And he said, to be in since it stopped doing it,

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he does not buy it any more because there isn't much else in it. So he

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doesn't? It is not as hard-hitting as it used to be, not as subversive.

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That's the question for our text vote. Is an immoral Press our

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fault? If you think it is, text the word VOTE, followed by YES. If you

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think it isn't text VOTE followed by NO. We'll show how you voted at

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the end of the programme. Is that the case, Peter papers have to do

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it because the readers demanded? is not as simple as that. This

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country has gone through a huge educational decline and a huge

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moral decline in the past 50 years. At the same time you have the

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enormous influence of Rupert Murdoch, a man who is quite

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prepared to exploit this to the uttermost and to actually forced a

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lot of other papers to follow him down that path will stop you sound

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like you are of resolving journalists of any responsibility?

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Everybody is responsible for their own actions. If you want to know

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why this has happened, look at the News of the World 50 years ago it

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is mostly about trial reports of particular murders, usually

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domestic murders. Now it is about scandal and celebrity gossip. These

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things are not the same. The last edition of the News of the World,

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is it produces a museum of the British press on how totally

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different popular newspapers were, more literate, full of information.

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And there has been a transformation. Circulation has dropped?

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Circulation has dropped recently. I think the reason is because the

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fall in educational standards and reading is falling out of fashion

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as an entertainment. How many people under 30 read for pleasure

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anymore? I'm not offering an excuse, but if you want to see an

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explanation, you cannot just say it is the papers. People have

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developed appetites for things which the papers satisfied. The

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basic problem remains this, if you want to have a free press, it has

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to be independent. To be independent it has to be

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commercially set successful. To be commercially successful it has to

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be popular. These things are popular, so we buy them in our

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droves? The companies spend billions every year on advertising.

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No they employee advertising agents, they employ experts and consultants

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to advertise. When they advertise their make money and we buy the

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products. If that did not work, they won't do it. They wouldn't

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spend billions. I am sure, if an advert on page 53, half way down is

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going to convince us to buy the product, then certainly, headline

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after headline, after headline will make us buy the product. So the

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newspapers have a massive influence in the way we think. If we took up

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the celebrity gossip and the stuff based on the allegedly illegal

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methods, would we still buy these papers? Will we have a taste for

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the alternative? Paul says, a taxi- driver said it is not the same

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without it? You will meet another taxi driver tomorrow and he will

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say the opposite. It is not just sleaze. The famous comment from the

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worst Gutter paper that has hit the face of this country, the Sun

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newspaper, will stop they were very proud to say we influence people to

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vote in a particular way. When it goes wrong, it is your fault. You

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cannot have your cake and eat it. Those who say you are what you eat,

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you are what you eat in terms of the propaganda as well. That is not

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really true. Once a month, the News of the World has done a credit

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where the story. I think naming and shaming, I remember writing, and I

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was proud of that. Conceivably, by putting a picture up of a

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paedophile, they may have saved the child's life. Maybe a couple of

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children. But, the next week we have a Premiership footballer has

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A3 in a bed, whatever! Y one is important for the other, you need

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to sell 5 million copies so when you have a genuine political

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scandal, people will read it. If you only sold 100 copies, no one

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would know the deputy Prime Minister had been lying to his wife

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and to the electorate. You do need the titillating nonsense, if you

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like. Do you think people would buy the paper just to read those

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political stories? If you want to read that kind of thing you would

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buy the Independent. How many people by the Independent? Hardly

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anybody. The only reason that is true that over the years the likes

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of Murdoch have but billions into ensuring we are convinced that what

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we want to read is the sleaze and everything else. In real terms, how

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many people would rather think about Ryan Giggs or anybody else in

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terms of their sporting prowess, rather than what they did outside?

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Tiger Woods, I used to love watching him play golf. Then the

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press did this big thing on the women he had. Suddenly I cannot

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watch him playing golf. I would rather watch him play golf than

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read about the women he has been with. Was that the media's fault?

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He has to apologise to his wife, but not to me. I do not occur. I

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just want to watch him play golf. Peter? I know nothing about golf.

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If the question is being made to simple and you have to remember it

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is true, that if you publish a newspaper purely composed of

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important political stories, not many people would read it. If you

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look at the Murdoch empire, the Times, I don't think it has made

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any money in modern history and it is being subsidised heavily by the

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other papers. We get a very powerful and important serious

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newspaper, financed by popular journalism which is a strong

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argument for having popular journalism alongside it. I don't

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think you could have a major popular paper unique to this

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country, a popular press that is influential in politics. Although

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it is not perfect, it keeps politics immensely cleaner.

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wonder why you see the Times is a powerful, important paper, clearly

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it is I like it. The Sun newspaper is more powerful because what is

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the readership of that? It is about 7 million. The readership of the

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Times it is a tiny amount. But one could not function without the

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other. It is business, it is not the reader's fault. They need a

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multi-million selling tabloids to form their other businesses, is

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that your point? To say it is the reader's false is like saying we

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:12:39.:12:39.

are not responsible for what we do. -- fault. What it is true to say,

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readers have changed. And that is because society has changed, in my

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view very much for the worse. cannot say you have had no

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influence in that, Peter. Newspaper, here at the year have made a

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difference, not only in terms of what they write as journalists, but

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the way they behave. Twenty-five years ago 6,000 print workers were

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thrown out of News International. The very same journalists or their

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forefathers were brought in a cross picket lines to produce newspapers

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which would decry those people. They were brought in again 6,000

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print workers. They have to take responsibility. This has nothing to

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do with the subject under discussion, absolutely nothing. I'm

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not making a great moral case for myself, I have done what I can.

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say it decline in education, morals and society and perhaps Derrick's

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point is to what extent does your newspaper and other papers Malta

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that? I think we try to fight against it. The reason I work for

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the paper I work for now, is because I care about that. That is

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the Daily Mail? It is the Mail on Sunday. And they are separate

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newspapers. Same owners? To what extent are the media for moulders

:14:13.:14:23.
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I think there is a lack or loss of professionalism in journalism now.

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Journalists are the symptoms, not the disease. The other things

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talked around the issue are about the massive, the ties Asian of

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everything. If you think about why journalists are not professional

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any more, it has come out of your discussion that they are always

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trying to give what the readers will want to buy. By think true

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professionalism requires more of a sense of objectivity and

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independence values -- I think. Journalists do not have those

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Independent values any more. They have been taken over by the market.

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Peter? I think that is simply untrue. There are huge amounts of

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journalists with values to stand up for them and state them in

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newspapers. If you want to find a spectrum of independent critical

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opinion, and a very broad and combative one, you have to look a

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long way to find anything better than you will find in the huge

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variety of the competitive, independent British press. I am not

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saying we are perfect, but on that basis it is good. I therefore

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challenge will viewers to open up a newspaper and dour content analysis

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about how much his personality driven, celebrity driven, about

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American foreign policy it will be a segment on what Condoleezza Rice

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or Michelle Obama is wearing. It is not about Concepts or factual

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information. Journalists are now part of the entertainment industry.

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They are not conceptual writers. Your course are part of that same

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industry by appearing on the programme, but that is not

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invalidated by that. We all have to get our views across the way that

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appeals to people. It does not mean that views cannot be honestly

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stated and have integrity. As far as I am able to talk to you, it is

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in the medium of soundbites, and I am as guilty as you of that but I

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am not kidding myself that anything you or I is saying is particularly

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conceptually profound all well developed. Speak for yourself! I

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think quite hard about what I say. Andy Flanagan is director of the

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Christian Socialist Movement. If media magnates are selling us what

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we want, is it bus that lacks self- control? -- is it us. I think we

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need to take a long, hard look at ourselves. We have been blaming

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other people, bankers, politicians, the media and it has been said the

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axis of evil runs through the heart of every individual. We all need to

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take a long hard look at ourselves. In reality, in these times, we are

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more likely to know about the private lives of the soap operas

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than our actual neighbours. A few years ago Robbie Williams said Let

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Me entertain You, and we all said fine, thank you very much. It is

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almost inevitable that hour only interaction with society is as

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consumers, we will struggle and we will be passive. They are good

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examples of people standing up and saying we are not consumers,

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looking at the London citizens and churches up and down the country to

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say that community is more than about receiving it is about giving

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as well. Graham, you are a commercial litigator and represent

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commercial victims of phone hacking. When people read about these

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allegations they were very shocked. But of course, they had read the

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stories as well. Is it hard to blame them when that material is

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dangled in front of them? I believe our popular tabloid media have,

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since Fleet Street moved away from Fleet Street, she slowly but surely

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weaned the public on to a sugary sweet diet of sensationalist

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reporting in order to sell more newspapers. That sort a

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straightforward manner ties in of sensationalist stories was made to

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sell the papers, so slowly and gradually we were directed toward

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what would sell more papers in order to fulfil the business model

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that the various newspaper groups decided would be more effective for

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them. They reduced their newsroom staff and porting pre-packaged

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stories from various suppliers. -- they brought in pre-packaged

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stories. That is probably the source of the situation we find

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ourselves in when newspapers like the News Of The World have found a

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business model that produces a very stark and clear return on their

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investment for the cheapest cost. Paul? I am a journalist, and I

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simply keep the Journal of the day. I go out and see things, talk to

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people and I write it down. But equally... You do have a choice

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about what she cover though? and No. The Daily Mirror is a

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mirror of our times. We don't make it up, we see it and be right about

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it. I suppose I have been doing this for about 20 years now, and at

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times I have done quite a lot of kiss-and-tell stories where the

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girl does a story about a footballer or a celebrity, and I

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have actually been quite shocked, I am from Northern Ireland at the

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moment and it can be quite puritanical, but it is like there

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is no shame. I was doing a story with one girl and I remember she

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asked if I wanted to know about how she had sex with her brother. And

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by did not even though it did not add to the story anyway. Funnily

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enough, that particular angle of the story did not matter. One I did

:20:29.:20:39.
:20:39.:20:39.

write fairly recently, and I don't want to libel anyone...

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certainly do not want you to libel anyone. Someone in the programme

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Big Brother, a guy this time, had a three in a bed with two girls and

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they were quite sweet, they had nice families, were fairly middle-

:20:57.:21:01.

class and the details they were prepared to tell me, I was just

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writing them down, and it was so intimate that you wondered if they

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had no shame. I'm sorry, Paul, but those girls did not wake up one

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morning and thought they had a great idea here. They did. They

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said can we have �10,000 please! The reason they got into the

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position was they had seen it newspaper after newspaper, year

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after year, particularly since a whole Wapping things started, they

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saw that that is what you do today to get a few quid. Because they

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have seen it, and if it hadn't happened in the past, they wouldn't

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have talked to you. They wouldn't have known they could get 10 grand

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for it. We have mentioned footballers and the programme Big

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Brother in this discussion and various showbiz people. This is not

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just a matter of newspapers. Newspapers did not invent Big

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Brother, television did, and the modern football industry was

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invented largely by television and indeed stoked up very much by

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satellite TV and this whole business of football millionaires.

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To blame this on the press is absurd. But the press get a lot of

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money out of programmes like Big brother's -- big brother because of

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the money around it. Newspapers operate in a society where other

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things happen, which they can't necessarily control. But quite

:22:26.:22:30.

rightly people are getting excited about packing into the phones,

:22:30.:22:34.

particularly about some of the instances which are now being

:22:34.:22:39.

exposed. Remember, what is the power in this country that can

:22:39.:22:44.

record your phone calls? That is the government. They are the people

:22:44.:22:48.

who are ultimately a far greater threat to people's privacy than

:22:48.:22:54.

anything the press can do. If you have a week -- a weak and feeble

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Press, as they do on the Continent, you have a dormant -- you have a

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week ago of -- stronger government. If you have a muzzled press, you

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have an unregulated government. just want to go back to the money

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aspect of the story. Paul, if you had not offered money, do you think

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you would have got the same access and level and detail? For no, 100 %.

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I know they wanted to book a holiday and they needed a bit more

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money. I remember saying this isn't very good and only worth a couple

:23:24.:23:30.

of grand, and they went, OK, maybe we did it five times a night. I

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said, is that all? I think we got to a ludicrous figure of 17 times

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over. I said, you're just making it up. How can you tell the difference

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if people are incentive vised by money? It is a big carrot to dangle.

:23:47.:23:53.

�10,000 of it is a great one, �500 if you didn't do much. Graham, if

:23:53.:23:58.

you are still with us, is that part of the problem, the money involved?

:23:58.:24:02.

It certainly is. I am sitting here shaking my head, listening to what

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Paul saying, and it is so clear that they are dangling the cash in

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front of these girls and manipulating them. This is all part

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of the business model, to promote the newspaper and to get the girls

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to reveal more and more. Yet he sits there surprised that they

:24:20.:24:23.

would embellish all life, because that is what they are doing with

:24:23.:24:30.

the story. -- embellish for life. And then he willingly publishes a

:24:30.:24:37.

story which is a breach of privacy. The Big Brother member actually

:24:37.:24:46.

loved it. You are trying to rationalise and justify... The is a

:24:46.:24:50.

guy living his life in public and two girls selling -- saying he did

:24:50.:24:56.

it 17 times a night. Once again, a News Of The World journalist is

:24:56.:25:02.

seeking to justify their position by enlightening the public on

:25:03.:25:07.

something you don't need to know about. The responsibility, that one

:25:07.:25:12.

word, seems to evade you. That is the problem which is a cause or a

:25:12.:25:18.

root of the cause of the problem with that News Of The World. They

:25:18.:25:23.

lost sight of where the line was drawn over accountable

:25:23.:25:27.

responsibility and the sale of newspapers. That is the problem.

:25:27.:25:32.

Let's speak to Neil Hamilton who had a horrific experience at that

:25:32.:25:37.

hands of some papers when false accusations were made against you.

:25:37.:25:44.

Would eliminating money for stories help? The case to which you refer

:25:44.:25:49.

was my wife and I were both accused of participating in a rape, which

:25:49.:25:55.

is completely untrue. And the girl who made up these allegations and

:25:55.:26:01.

subsequently was sent to prison for perjury sold her story to the News

:26:01.:26:08.

Of The World, via Max Clifford, for �50,000. She was entitled to

:26:08.:26:12.

anonymity as an alleged victim of a sex offence, but she sold that

:26:12.:26:17.

anonymity to the News of the world for money. So money is at the root

:26:17.:26:23.

of a lot of these problems. We all know that when people have a story

:26:23.:26:28.

to sell, a newspaper will decide that this isn't sexy enough, let's

:26:28.:26:34.

make it sexier. That is what happens very often. Take the famous

:26:34.:26:40.

case of David Muller and Antonio Sanchez, who was supposed to have

:26:40.:26:44.

us had sex with her in a Chelsea football kit, which is of course

:26:44.:26:53.

untrue. The lurid detail is untrue. The true responsibility lies with

:26:53.:26:59.

the editors and journalists. Neil, we have a bit of a break-up on the

:26:59.:27:03.

line and we are in danger of telling only half the story.

:27:03.:27:08.

Funnily enough, that story came from a phone hack. Oh, am I giving

:27:08.:27:13.

something away. Actually, I probably shouldn't say that.

:27:13.:27:17.

has almost admitted that he has sat down with a girl -- Paul has almost

:27:17.:27:22.

admitted that he has sat down with a girl and said if you give me more,

:27:22.:27:25.

I will give you more money. Somewhere along the line the truce

:27:25.:27:30.

will go. It is so distorted it does not become the truth anymore. I am

:27:30.:27:36.

not surprised at that, and it is not just you. People are -- over

:27:36.:27:41.

years and years have seen stories that have been totally distorted

:27:41.:27:47.

where the truth is almost unrecognisable, but in the past

:27:47.:27:51.

that Lord didn't exist or they did not have the money to go to court.

:27:51.:27:56.

-- that law didn't exist. These things go on, and it is not the

:27:57.:28:01.

sort of journalism I like or want to read and other people feel the

:28:01.:28:08.

same way, but if you want to ask how did the MP expenses San --

:28:08.:28:13.

scandal get involved, so money changed hands. -- get exposed. It

:28:13.:28:16.

is not always as simple as you would like. Sometimes an

:28:16.:28:20.

independent press will do things you don't like, but if it is

:28:20.:28:24.

independent, that is the way it is going to be. And if you don't want

:28:24.:28:27.

an independent press then see how you like the kind of society where

:28:27.:28:33.

power is not called to account. It is not as independent as I was like

:28:33.:28:35.

it to be that it is a good deal more independent than any other

:28:35.:28:39.

national press I can think of anywhere in the world. Rory

:28:39.:28:44.

Greenslade joins us. -- Roy Greenslade joins us. I beg your

:28:44.:28:47.

pardon, we do not have Roy Greenslade but we hope to get him

:28:47.:28:54.

in a moment. To make a quick point, you remember the Sunday Sport, he

:28:54.:28:59.

went out of business but came back again. In the early 1990s it was

:29:00.:29:04.

really popular with its silly stories about a bus being found on

:29:04.:29:08.

the moon and then a bus found on the Moon with a wheel clamp. But

:29:08.:29:12.

that particular edition sold half- a-million copies, which was more

:29:12.:29:15.

than the Independent and the Observer combined. You know, what

:29:15.:29:25.
:29:25.:29:27.

What does that say about the people buying the product? It is

:29:27.:29:32.

distressing about the level of education in our society. The one

:29:32.:29:36.

thing Fleet Street has failed at over the past 50 years, is

:29:36.:29:41.

campaigning to do something Steve's -- serious about the state of

:29:41.:29:46.

education in this country. Have you done anything illegal to get a

:29:46.:29:55.

story? No, who did get a story in Bucharest, which I suspect was

:29:55.:30:01.

illegal, but nobody minded. Under Romanian Communist law it was

:30:01.:30:09.

probably an offence. You have been very honest... I have a lawyer

:30:09.:30:13.

telling me to stop implicating myself. Our you concerned about

:30:13.:30:21.

being arrested? I am, I have not been home for about five days, that

:30:21.:30:27.

is why I am still wearing the same suit. The police have asked me into

:30:27.:30:35.

Scotland Yard, not as a witness to arrest me. They did not just say,

:30:35.:30:41.

come involuntarily, it was like you will come in tomorrow. But I have

:30:41.:30:47.

not. They have astute to come in tomorrow. Or they had previously

:30:47.:30:51.

asked you? I have had three requests to go to Scotland Yard to

:30:52.:30:56.

be interviewed under caution which require them arresting me as I

:30:56.:31:01.

walked through the door. I am staying away. I don't think I have

:31:01.:31:07.

done anything that deserves a rest. I am not going to say I have broken

:31:07.:31:11.

the law lots and lots, because they will listen to the tapes. All I

:31:11.:31:16.

have ever tried to do is write a well-researched and truthful

:31:16.:31:22.

articles about what is going on in the world around me. It sounds a

:31:22.:31:26.

bit flippant, what better way to get to the truth and hear it from

:31:26.:31:32.

the horse's mouth perhaps on their own messages. It is a cracking line.

:31:32.:31:37.

I am not going to see them because I don't think I should be arrested.

:31:37.:31:41.

If anybody else in any other walk of life wouldn't last for five

:31:41.:31:45.

minutes because journalists get away with it. We are just trying to

:31:45.:31:48.

do something good, why should you be arrested because you have

:31:48.:31:55.

strayed into Ngorongoro Crater area. Corruption has been councils, which

:31:55.:32:01.

you'll know all about. You don't even know why out me and what I

:32:01.:32:06.

have done. Don't go making it up. But you have done that all of your

:32:06.:32:10.

life, why change now? We will leave it there and with Paul's

:32:10.:32:16.

circumstances hanging in the her, is a moral press of fault? It is

:32:16.:32:23.

the question we are asking at the moment. If you think it is, tex the

:32:23.:32:33.
:32:33.:32:35.

You only have around five minutes before it closes.

:32:35.:32:39.

Late on the programme - would you lie about your religion to get your

:32:39.:32:44.

children into a good school? And should you have to? We will be

:32:44.:32:48.

speaking to a vicar who says faking it is fine because it gives her a

:32:48.:32:58.
:32:58.:33:01.

better chance of converting you. Before we let Paul go to face the

:33:01.:33:06.

future, we will ask what else has been spinning our guests moral

:33:06.:33:10.

compasses this week? Peter, you will read about the funeral

:33:10.:33:15.

corteges of soldiers killed in Afghanistan? Yes, when the RAF base

:33:15.:33:22.

at Lyneham closes in September, the dead coming back from Afghanistan

:33:22.:33:27.

will come through Brize Norton. The route that has been proposed to go

:33:27.:33:30.

to the John Radcliffe Hospital now takes them away from any high

:33:30.:33:37.

streets. They are on a bypass and suburban roads, which they could go

:33:37.:33:41.

through the town next to Brize Norton. I am suspicious as to why

:33:41.:33:45.

this is happening. The Government may be taking an opportunity,

:33:45.:33:49.

because they have not liked what has been happening at Wootton

:33:49.:33:53.

Bassett, which was a genuinely spontaneous demonstration of grief

:33:53.:33:57.

and respect. I feel strongly they should be held to account for this

:33:57.:34:04.

and asked repeatedly why it is these possessions won't be able to

:34:04.:34:10.

go down a high street. The there is an official explanation is that it

:34:10.:34:13.

is to urban and taking too many speed bumps which would be

:34:13.:34:20.

inappropriate. There are speed bumps on the bypass route. The

:34:20.:34:25.

Wootton Bassett roots went through narrow streets. It is a much

:34:25.:34:31.

shorter tries from Brize Norton than it was from Lyneham. Every

:34:31.:34:36.

excuse has been put up for this, market traders in Carterton would

:34:36.:34:40.

object for example. It has been knocked down in practice. If the

:34:41.:34:44.

Government is going to have the nerve to send people off to get

:34:44.:34:49.

killed, it it shouldn't have the nerve to prevent people expressing

:34:49.:34:54.

their grief over it when it happens. There is a report out that we will

:34:54.:35:00.

have to work into we are 70. Is it too long? I am frowning because

:35:00.:35:05.

possibly we might have to work a lot longer. Not because anybody

:35:05.:35:10.

says so, it is an inevitability. People are campaigning saying we

:35:10.:35:15.

shouldn't be working until we are 66, but people in the 30s, 40s will

:35:15.:35:21.

have to work a lot longer. One person in every 100 will soon reach

:35:21.:35:28.

100. At the same time, one in three, ten-year-olds are obese. We are not

:35:28.:35:34.

fit enough, the NHS will collapse. There are so many ways to keep fit,

:35:34.:35:39.

there are the gymnasiums, the Government's Back to Work scheme.

:35:39.:35:43.

But we still have this obesity. I cannot believe the people who are

:35:43.:35:49.

saying, I cannot lose weight. Some people cannot, but the vast

:35:49.:35:53.

majority of them are lazy and greedy. People have to be told

:35:53.:35:56.

clearly they will have to work longer, and they have to be fitted

:35:56.:36:02.

to do that for the sake of anybody. That is very right wing. If tis

:36:02.:36:12.
:36:12.:36:12.

realistic. It is not about right or left. How long do you think you'll

:36:12.:36:18.

have to work? I want to work for ever. Until you drop? Without

:36:18.:36:24.

question. Peter? People do jobs they would like to retire from, but

:36:24.:36:29.

I am very lucky and I do not want to stop it. Could you there to

:36:29.:36:34.

carry on working with the pressure you are under? I retired at 40 and

:36:34.:36:39.

bought a pub. But I still generalise every now and again.

:36:39.:36:44.

Working in a pub is working isn't it? I suppose it is, it is quite

:36:44.:36:51.

hard work as well. Estranged reason for eviction? Why do I do the silly

:36:51.:36:59.

one? This is out of the Sun newspaper. The man faces eviction

:36:59.:37:09.
:37:09.:37:09.

for singing in his flat and humming. I have been practising how loud you

:37:10.:37:15.

can do it. And she did be a reason for addiction? No, councillors are

:37:15.:37:22.

not some times and will do anything to waive their bit of power. It

:37:22.:37:32.

reminds me about one of the last stories I wrote. A lady had about

:37:32.:37:40.

four cleaners and in their contract, and I saw them, it said "yew bark

:37:40.:37:48.

forbidden from humming Elvis Presley's songs in the House".

:37:48.:37:53.

Humming is annoying, so maybe you should be evicted for it after all?

:37:54.:38:00.

We have been asking is an immoral press our fault? The poll is

:38:00.:38:03.

closing as you could still be charged and we will bring you the

:38:03.:38:12.

result at the end of the programme. Think of the fees, drop to your

:38:12.:38:17.

knees. A common catchphrase at middle-class dinner parties. A

:38:17.:38:23.

fierce parents -- parents are trying to get their kids into a

:38:23.:38:28.

decent school. Derek Hatton says you should do anything for your

:38:28.:38:36.

children's education and the churches deserve it. Is he right?

:38:36.:38:40.

Faith schools are some of the best and most popular in the country and

:38:40.:38:45.

many parents will do anything to get their kids into them. Some

:38:45.:38:48.

atheists and agnostic parents are prepared to drop to their knees and

:38:48.:38:54.

fake a face if it gets their child a chance of a better future. Some

:38:54.:38:56.

of our most high-profile politicians say they are not

:38:56.:39:03.

religious but sent their children to these schools. Do you believe in

:39:03.:39:12.

God? No, I don't. Some people think it is hypocrisy to about two a God

:39:12.:39:14.

you don't think exists. Some schools include a wide range of

:39:14.:39:20.

pupils, but church schools give places based on things like how

:39:20.:39:23.

often parents go to church, volunteering and how early children

:39:23.:39:28.

are baptised. Some parents complained it makes it easier for

:39:28.:39:33.

rich families to get in because they can give up more of their time.

:39:33.:39:36.

The Church issued guidelines saying school should admit more poor

:39:36.:39:41.

children from different faiths and races. Some parents say it is not

:39:41.:39:44.

fair you need faith to get your child through the door of the best

:39:44.:39:50.

Church cools. There is evidence more mixed schools help stop racism

:39:50.:39:54.

and segregation. We want the best for our children but very few can

:39:54.:39:58.

afford to send them to private school. Does this make getting on

:39:58.:40:02.

your knees to a Boyd fees acceptable?

:40:02.:40:10.

What do you think? -- avoid the fees. We are joined by the Reverend

:40:10.:40:20.
:40:20.:40:20.

Joanna Jepson. Paul has left the room, if not the building.

:40:20.:40:26.

Is it OK to fake it? You're getting them through the door? What people

:40:26.:40:31.

are being asked to do is not fake it, but attend and become part of a

:40:31.:40:37.

church. Certainly from where I am sitting, Church of England, to get

:40:37.:40:41.

your children into the local church school, parents need to attend the

:40:41.:40:45.

church. It is not my place to be ditching their motives for doing

:40:45.:40:50.

that. Derek Hatton, you are on a fierce, if you have the chance of

:40:50.:40:55.

getting your children into a fantastic, Ofsted outstanding

:40:56.:41:01.

writer school, would you go to church? If it was not so serious,

:41:01.:41:06.

it would be very funny, this topic. You have a church, over the years

:41:06.:41:09.

who have been losing numbers by their millions and now the only

:41:09.:41:15.

people who go to church, when they are born, when they get married and

:41:15.:41:20.

when they died. The first two are being ignored, so it is only the

:41:20.:41:25.

latter. The Church is thinking at last there is a way of getting them

:41:25.:41:29.

in. They don't care about the truth, but it is just to get them through

:41:29.:41:37.

the doors. That is not accurate. answer your question, yes, if I had

:41:37.:41:41.

kids of that age and the only good school was the church school, as

:41:41.:41:46.

far as I'm concerned, I would laugh at the church school and say, I

:41:46.:41:49.

will tell the lie because it does not matter. Because you have told

:41:49.:41:55.

lies for all those decades. cannot answer for other particular

:41:55.:41:59.

faiths, but where the Church of England is concerned, as the

:41:59.:42:03.

established face of this country, the deal is, everybody in the

:42:03.:42:10.

country has a priest and a church. Now, we are there to minister to

:42:10.:42:15.

people of all faiths and no faith. It is not down to us and it is not

:42:15.:42:19.

part of our Ministry to say you cannot be a part of this church. If

:42:19.:42:24.

I was to judge the motives of anyone, including myself on

:42:24.:42:30.

particular Sunday mornings in church... Derek Hatton says not

:42:30.:42:35.

only would he come, he would laugh at the church. But that says more

:42:35.:42:40.

about his character. I don't know so much about Church of England

:42:40.:42:44.

schools, but many people I know who go to Catholic Church has to play

:42:44.:42:49.

the game, their Catholic Church knows very well that game is being

:42:49.:42:54.

played. That is why I don't think it says more about me, it is about

:42:54.:42:59.

the church. The Church is encouraging it. They are

:42:59.:43:05.

encouraging people. It is an opportunity to fulfil the Ministry

:43:05.:43:13.

for the local community. Peter, you are religious? It is concerning

:43:13.:43:17.

that a Fleet Street journalist is more concerned about a vicar.

:43:17.:43:21.

Church schools are good, and because they are, they are

:43:21.:43:25.

oversubscribed so they have to select in some way. What you are

:43:25.:43:30.

saying in this process of selection, you are prepared to accept people

:43:30.:43:35.

as far as you know, or very much accept -- suspect are pretending to

:43:35.:43:39.

be Christian believers, so they can get their children into a better

:43:39.:43:43.

school. The school is better because it is a Christian school,

:43:43.:43:47.

that is why it is better. The people sending their child there

:43:47.:43:52.

know that. But they are saying we will be a fierce, even though the

:43:52.:43:55.

school is run on a fierce principles, which are everywhere,

:43:55.:43:59.

they are no good. They want to send their children to Christian schools,

:43:59.:44:03.

they want to ride free on the benefits of Christianity without

:44:03.:44:09.

believing in it. It is unpleasant and it is so fundamentally bad to

:44:09.:44:12.

be dishonest in front of your children. Why don't you talk to

:44:12.:44:17.

someone who did that, Andrew Penman, you faked it and wrote a book about

:44:17.:44:21.

it. You're a fierce, your wife is agnostic, isn't it hypocritical to

:44:22.:44:31.

want your children to go to a I did not enjoy a second of it. I

:44:31.:44:36.

went to church under duress for three or four years. Over the other

:44:36.:44:39.

side of my road was a state Anglican primary school where half

:44:39.:44:44.

of the places went to people who were the children of Anglicans. In

:44:44.:44:47.

other words, it was not a community school at all, it discriminated

:44:47.:44:52.

against the children of parents who were not Anglican. Discriminated in

:44:52.:44:58.

favour of the parents to work, which is a different thing. It was

:44:58.:45:01.

a church school. You must remember these church schools are there

:45:01.:45:05.

because the church set them up before the state could be bothered.

:45:05.:45:10.

The state still give 100 % of the running costs though. And those

:45:10.:45:16.

running costs come from the taxes. The do not come from the church.

:45:16.:45:26.
:45:26.:45:27.

Derek, can I ever finish a sentence. Everybody stop! It definitely helps

:45:27.:45:32.

if one person speaks. I had not finished my sentence. The taxes

:45:32.:45:35.

come from Christians as well as others. They are entitled to have

:45:35.:45:38.

any education like anyone else. There are a lot of Christian

:45:38.:45:42.

schools in the country whose laws, traditions, Customs and morals are

:45:42.:45:49.

based on Christianity and on which you run. It makes sense to invite

:45:49.:45:54.

people who are going to contribute at home to support what the schools

:45:54.:45:58.

are trying to give in terms of spiritual nourishment and personal

:45:58.:46:02.

development, and the whole coherence that the face message

:46:02.:46:06.

gives. It makes sense to do that, because of the faith communities

:46:06.:46:13.

don't do that, nobody else will, or indeed can. And true, how did you

:46:13.:46:20.

fake your face? I went to church each Sunday. -- had LD Duke take

:46:20.:46:28.

There was some favours cause that seemed to be run by basket cases

:46:28.:46:33.

that should be shut down. We would not get all of the state schools

:46:33.:46:40.

the same as. The subscription numbers speak for themselves.

:46:40.:46:44.

these schools better because they are Christian but because they are

:46:44.:46:49.

oversubscribed and able to select who they get through their doors?

:46:49.:46:52.

The they are oversubscribed because they are good and people recognise

:46:52.:46:55.

there is a coherence to what is being offered that other schools do

:46:55.:47:03.

not provide. I will mention something to you that the Bishop of

:47:03.:47:06.

Oxford said. Church schools need to remember what they are for, and

:47:06.:47:10.

they are not necessarily for nice safe Christians in a nice safe

:47:10.:47:15.

places. They are supposed to offer the ministry to everybody and

:47:15.:47:21.

people of all faiths and local people like Andrew. Not just local

:47:21.:47:27.

religious people. If I had it my way, I would be encouraging parents

:47:27.:47:32.

to come to church, but not discriminating against the children

:47:32.:47:36.

and their family's faith. But for the teachers, I would insist that

:47:37.:47:42.

the teachers subscribe to the face to make it a coherent place. But do

:47:42.:47:48.

you think it is right that the schools get 100 % of their running

:47:48.:47:53.

costs from the government and can then turn round and demand that 50

:47:53.:47:59.

%, and if they said 90 % of the total costs were from the state,

:47:59.:48:02.

and 10 % were from the church, then you could argue that there was

:48:02.:48:10.

fairness. Derek, the government does not have any money. That comes

:48:10.:48:16.

from taxes, from people earning. The majority of people in the

:48:16.:48:21.

country are not churchgoers. That does not mean they do not want this

:48:21.:48:30.

You have been involved in the running of schools, so these their

:48:30.:48:34.

benefit of children not from a fate to go to a fate school? Is there

:48:34.:48:41.

are benefiting children lying about it? -- a Faith's School. A I find

:48:41.:48:44.

the conversation laughable. Let's forget about the religion itself

:48:44.:48:47.

for a moment and think about the parents in your studio talking

:48:47.:48:54.

about the fact that the Church is not deserving. What a great premise

:48:54.:49:00.

on which to educate your own children, on a life. And if your

:49:00.:49:05.

son says he cheats on your exam, he could say that his whole presence

:49:05.:49:12.

in the school is a lie. Can you blame parents for wanting the best

:49:12.:49:16.

for their children and if the best is a local fetes call them wanting

:49:16.:49:20.

them to go there? I can't blame children for wanting their parents

:49:20.:49:24.

to have -- parents for wanting their children to have a good

:49:24.:49:31.

education. I know that faith schools are working up trying to

:49:31.:49:35.

catch up to the overall standards, but religion itself is not a free-

:49:35.:49:45.

for-all. Any sort of school has to involve the criteria of the school.

:49:45.:49:49.

It is important that the rabbi is making a distinction between

:49:49.:49:55.

religion and faith. You can fake religion, but she cannot fake faith.

:49:55.:49:59.

From the point of view of the priest, who were my to judge the

:49:59.:50:02.

condition of any one of my congregation's heart and spirit

:50:02.:50:10.

before God? -- who am I to judge. You cannot legislate for that.

:50:10.:50:16.

Peter, you endorsed the point that the Rabbi makes. It is so

:50:16.:50:20.

fundamental. People learn by example above all. If they see

:50:20.:50:24.

their parents cheating, they will learn to cheat. It is the most

:50:24.:50:27.

extraordinary are responsible thing to do to cheat in this way,

:50:27.:50:32.

particularly to cheat for advantage, which is a particularly nasty form

:50:32.:50:37.

of it. The punishment that these parents deserve this for their

:50:37.:50:40.

children to grow up as Christians and to forgive them for the

:50:40.:50:45.

terrible things they have done. is not cheating if the churches

:50:45.:50:48.

opening up their ministry and service to families to say, Look,

:50:48.:50:54.

we have something to offer and we are here to serve you. I think of

:50:54.:50:59.

my god-daughter who did not grow up in a church-going family. When she

:50:59.:51:04.

was 12 years old she went to do a school project in her local rural

:51:04.:51:10.

church and ended up being so interested in its -- in it, and she

:51:10.:51:14.

got the whole family going to church, and at the age of 12 she

:51:14.:51:17.

decided to be baptised and confirmed and is now a committed

:51:17.:51:25.

Christian. To make a point to Joanna, the difficulties here is

:51:25.:51:28.

that they might be intended advantages for the Church, but it

:51:28.:51:34.

is impossible for a minister of the Church to bear false witness or say

:51:34.:51:37.

that it is all right to do so. That is pretty high in the Commandments

:51:37.:51:42.

that you cannot do that. John Cox is a former director of education

:51:42.:51:48.

for faith schools and a retired Archdeacon. John, is it useful to

:51:48.:51:53.

have them in that even if their parents do not believe, or is it

:51:53.:51:59.

simply a falsehood that you find offensive? I find it difficult

:51:59.:52:06.

about the integrity of the person, but it -- to have children from

:52:06.:52:09.

none of face for families is part of the distinctive nature of the

:52:09.:52:12.

Church in England's schooling. They are there for the community as well

:52:12.:52:16.

as the members of the Church. And part of the distinction of the

:52:16.:52:23.

Church of England school is that it is open and inclusive to those of

:52:23.:52:28.

no faith, other faiths and that faith. So why do parents feel they

:52:28.:52:32.

have to fake this in order to get in? Because they want their best

:52:32.:52:39.

education for their children. But the facts rather less than half of

:52:39.:52:43.

Church of England schools have control on their admissions policy.

:52:43.:52:48.

The rest are covered by local authority admissions. Derek Hatton

:52:48.:52:56.

is wrong to say that the Church Schools do not pay anything. I said

:52:56.:53:00.

that 90 % of the total cost comes from the government and they paid

:53:00.:53:07.

10 %. They paid 10 % of the capital costs. Neil Hamilton is still with

:53:07.:53:14.

us in his role as a former faiths school teacher. Is discriminating

:53:14.:53:20.

on the basis of faith keeping standards up and are the fate

:53:20.:53:26.

schools worried about losing the pushy parents? -- faith schools.

:53:26.:53:31.

I am entirely in favour of faith schools and I think they give a

:53:31.:53:35.

moral grounding two children. I am not against the Church

:53:35.:53:40.

discriminating in favour of its own at all. In a country where the

:53:40.:53:43.

education system was entirely funded by individuals themselves

:53:43.:53:47.

rather than by the state, this would not be an issue. But because

:53:47.:53:51.

the state takes so much from us in taxes people cannot afford to do

:53:51.:53:56.

that, so the issue of public policy is there, but otherwise people

:53:56.:54:04.

would not see this as a problem at all. Teaching by example, I am a

:54:04.:54:08.

great believer in that, but I do not think that the lying to get

:54:08.:54:12.

into a school comes from that. The vast majority of churchgoers know

:54:12.:54:18.

very well that parents are playing the game, and if one of my kids

:54:18.:54:22.

came home and said he cheated in an exam and I would not say it was the

:54:22.:54:26.

same thing. Of course it is not the same thing. What that shows is the

:54:27.:54:35.

bankruptcy of that type of argument. You would not like being told it

:54:35.:54:38.

was the same thing because it would put the responsibility on you, but

:54:38.:54:43.

it would still be true, and it is not really possible for the church

:54:43.:54:45.

schools to put these people through some kind of Inquisition to

:54:45.:54:49.

discover if they really believe. It is not the fault of the school or

:54:49.:54:53.

the vicar, it is only the fault of the parents and I stress this again,

:54:53.:54:58.

if people think a theism is so wonderful, set up a few schools,

:54:58.:55:03.

and see if people want to come to them and if if they get

:55:03.:55:07.

oversubscribed, we will know that atheist schools are fantastic. We

:55:07.:55:11.

know that Christians schools are better because they are Christian.

:55:11.:55:15.

There are plenty of non-religious schools that are oversubscribed.

:55:15.:55:22.

The that is not the point being discussed here. In this particular

:55:22.:55:30.

case, it is in very many communities that if you want a good

:55:30.:55:33.

primary education, it is the church schools that provide it. That is

:55:33.:55:38.

not a coincidence. We should be celebrating that. Underneath all of

:55:38.:55:44.

this is a kind of paranoia about the place that faith has in our

:55:44.:55:48.

society altogether, and I think there is a greater discussion to be

:55:48.:55:53.

had about that. Why can't you be generous enough to just celebrate

:55:53.:55:59.

the good that Christian faith and the Church brings to our society?

:56:00.:56:04.

cannot celebrate what church schools can do to people. It breeds

:56:04.:56:09.

a discrimination and hatred. That is nonsense. That is absolute

:56:09.:56:16.

nonsense. One parent in Northern Ireland was throwing stones at a

:56:16.:56:22.

child. That is not faith, that is human nature hiding behind a

:56:22.:56:29.

smokescreen of religion. I want to let you know that your survey votes

:56:29.:56:33.

are in. At the beginning of the programme we asked if an immoral

:56:33.:56:37.

press is our fault? While we have been discussing, you have been

:56:37.:56:45.

voting. You told us, 71 % of those who sent us a text said yes, it is

:56:45.:56:54.

our fault. 29 % say no. So 71 % of people take it on the chin, Derek.

:56:54.:56:58.

It is one of those surveys that happens and they go one way or

:56:58.:57:02.

another. An awful lot of people don't want to accept that it is

:57:02.:57:06.

somehow their fault for reading it. Just as they have been fed up time

:57:06.:57:09.

and again that they should read that nonsense and lies, equally,

:57:09.:57:16.

when it comes to saying it was their fault, I have no problem with

:57:16.:57:21.

that. We need to be thinking about what we collude with and there are

:57:21.:57:25.

questions of power, integrity and responsibility, and we have to ask

:57:25.:57:30.

ourselves at this break point, are we going to collude with the next

:57:30.:57:36.

publication? The press cannot moralise Society on its own. The

:57:36.:57:41.

press can help, and some of it does try and then it gets criticism when

:57:41.:57:46.

it does, and we get accused of moral preaching, but the more we do,

:57:46.:57:51.

the better it will be for everyone. You can continue that debate on our

:57:51.:57:54.

website. Thank you to all of you who have taken part today. My

:57:54.:57:58.

thanks to Peter Hitchens, Derek Hatton and the Reverend Joanna

:57:58.:58:02.

Jepson in the studio. And to Paul McMullan who joined us earlier.

:58:02.:58:06.

Please do not text or call the phone lines, they are closed, but

:58:06.:58:10.

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