Episode 9 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 9

John Bird, Andrew Stone, Jon Gaunt and Julie Bindel debate: Should we get rid of the human rights act? Should women stay at home and look after the kids?


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Transcript


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Criminals, terrorists, even rioters - they've all found a handy shield

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from justice in the Human Rights Good morning, and welcome to Sunday

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Morning Live. The Human Rights Act is meant to

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protect the vulnerable from torture, oppression and injustice. But John

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Bird from the Big Issue knows a thing or two about the vulnerable.

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And he reckons we don't need it. For the 1998 European Human Rights

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Act has greatly distorted justice in Britain and has got to go.

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More women are unemployed today than at any time since Mrs Thatcher

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was in charge. And it could well get worse. So, should women park

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the struggle for equality, concentrate on being mums and let

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men bring home the bacon? Jedward on Big Brother, seven

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drunken dwarves in a house, the first wailing of the rounds of X

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Factor. Yes, "reality" is back on the box again. National guilty

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pleasure? Or national shame? We'll hear what Pineapple Dance Studios'

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Andrew Stone has to say on that one. My guests this week have all had

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brushes with the law. John Bird spent his early years in and out of

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prison before founding the Big Issue. And he's fronted a reality

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TV show. As a feminist writer, Julie

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Bindel's battled for women's rights in the courts for decades and

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reckons all women should try being Jon Gaunt's opinions may have

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blistered your late night radio ears over the years. But he wasn't

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slow to use the Human Rights Act when he lost his job. We'll hear if

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he's still so keen on it. And we want to hear what you think.

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Call in now to challenge our guests Call in now to challenge our guests

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The Human Rights Act enshrines our right to education, free elections,

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free speech, and a family life. Rights we'd all stand up for. But

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John Bird says the act also protects criminals ahead of the

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innocent, and should go. This is his Sunday stand. The 1998 European

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in Human Rights Act has greatly distorted justice in Britain and

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has got to go. Two weeks ago, the streets of Tottenham in north

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London erupted when a peaceful demonstration turned into criminal

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disorder. The police held back. Why? Largely because they were

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frightened of being seen as heavy handed. Every kind of life

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threatening that civil disorder cannot be placed with our

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protectors tied down, worried about over exaggerated human rights

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issues. Is it right to valued that human rights of a violent mugger

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over a victim, or let a prisoner way of the human rights flag so

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they don't have to go to court? No. The system is flawed. What person's

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humans rides are maintained at the expense of another us? -- human-

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rights. Justice is often their only for the rock under work, and not

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for the wrong doing -- there or the victim, and not the wrongdoer. We

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cannot allow this miscarriage of justice to continue for another day.

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We need justice there, as much for the victims as the perpetrators.

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Julie, is John right? Macro now. The reason we needed Human Rights

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Act is that the individual is protected against the state when

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the state misbehaves -- no. I can see why lots of people think this

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is an act only used by criminals. It is not. David Cameron, his knee-

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jerk reaction, that is because he is pandering to Daily Mail readers.

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The reason that most of the general public think that the Human Rights

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Act is a charter for rapists and murderers and all sorts of

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criminals is because the Daily Mile and other tabloids -- Daily Mail

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and other tabloids run stories that disproportionately reflect the way

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it is used. Many people in prison need to use this Act. Whether or

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not they have committed this crime, they have the right to do so.

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see John wants to get back in the Ahmad and Jon Gaunt, but before

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they do, that is the question for the text vote. Should we get rid of

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We'll show how you voted at the end of the programme. Jon Gaunt, you

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have used it. I am using it. Article 10 of the Human Rights Act.

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The bottom line, that Human Rights Act does get bad press, as Julie

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says, but it always gets mixed up with our involvement in the EU. We

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need British courts and British justice. Most people in this

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country want our sovereignty to come back to our country. If we

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untangle it from the EU, because as you said, it seems to be linked in

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some people's minds, but it is separate. Her it is Lydd, because

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you can't be a member of the key year and not beside it to the

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charter -- it is linked. What people want in this country is

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British laws for British people. had the Act introduced by British

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people. By Tony Blair, but we have not had a referendum. People do

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feel remote, they fill our law is dictated from outside. Mr Cameron

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is right, we do need a British Bill of Rights, alone Human Rights Act,

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so we would have more control. We cannot do that while remaining in

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the EU, so we should have a referendum on the EU and reframe

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bid for this country. Our freedom of expression, I use Article 10

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because I believe that my rights to free speech had been infringed and

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I am still using get now. You have to use whatever law is available to

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you. Do you not see the contradiction in opposing it and

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using it? We live in a democracy and though she said, and an elected

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government put us into this Human Rights Act to use this Human Rights

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Act -- as you said. But look at it this way, I don't care what anybody

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says, I was in the present system and over a period of time, they

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lost the plot over the perpetrator -- the prison system. They have

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lost the plot but the Rhondda up. So they tell everybody they are a

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victim of psychological, sociological stuff, and they

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absolutely turned a whole group of people into very astute people. My

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nephew in law, he is a cop back out on the streets, when he stops kids

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who have got drugs on them, money on them, they all know their human

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rights. They all know that you can't do this and you can't do that.

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I am going to make this point. I will tell you, it doesn't matter

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what the law you have got, it is the spirit of the law. And the

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interpretation of the human rights, over the last 10 years... You have

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spoken enough. Let it duly come back in. What we need to remember

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is it is a criminal offence for a copper to clip some Ulick -- young

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hooligan around the ear. It is an offence for a teacher to hit a

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pupil. So we already have enshrined in our domestic law. If the pupils

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are coming out with human rights language, it is because they have

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heard it on the TV or read it in the paper. It is no difference to

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the law we already have. What is different to the human rights

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legislation is that any individual can use it, what you are the

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perpetrator of a crime or a victim. Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta

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Jones used it for those photographs taken against their will, the same

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as you. But because it is in Europe, it seems to be too remote for us.

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It did was alone Bill of Rights, we would be in control that. In this

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country, too many people know their rights and not many people though

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their responsibilities. We need to take control. I am walking along

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the, I meet a guy who will never work again because he has been

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marred by somebody. And when he goes to court, there is a guy that

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will never and a crust, then in his early fifties, and when he goes to

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court... And what really appals him is they cannot defend the human

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rights are that the person who perpetrated this crime. Pilot light

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to bring in a human rights lawyer, let's put that to somebody it deals

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with this -- I would like to bring him. You have heard these stories,

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prisoners who claim it is a breach of their rights to come to court, a

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burglar let out early because it breached his right to family life

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have not to spend time with his children. The argument being that

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we prioritise the rights of the individuals, and it seems an

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injustice to the rest of society. Well, let's not forget that these

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are tabloid stories. A lot of these cases are not even brought to court.

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I think it is a complete nonsense to suggest we should scrap the

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Human Rights Act. It would be to this country's shame if we lost

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this clear and basic statement of our citizens's humans right --

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human-rights on the broad understanding of its relevance to

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our society. And senior judges in this country and even the Director

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of Public Prosecutions agreed that the Human Rights Act had been a

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very good thing for this country and it seems to be that it is only

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some Conservative politicians that one does rapid. In the real world,

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the place where politicians often find hard to locate, it is not hard

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to find the real code and responsibility. The other

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responsibility is to obey the law. Every law in the statute is about

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our responsibilities. We have so many laws... I don't think we

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need... Adam [email protected] That Adam is from the human rights

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block. Be blase it should be replaced by something more British.

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-- people are saying it should be replaced. Saying it is not British

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is ignoring the history of it. The history of the Human Rights Act, is

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that the convention was drafted most are by British lawyers, mainly

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by a British Conservative lawyer, and it was implemented by our

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Parliament. It is also based fundamentally on rights that go

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back to around Bill of Rights in 1689. So really, to say it is anti-

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British is taking a "we don't like Europe" line. Absolute rubbish.

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What I'm saying is that if you want to get it more acceptable to the

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British public, if it was a British act and all of the judgments were

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by British judges, it would be fine. What gets up people's noses that

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when the Human Rights Act is being there is -- used so prisoners can

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get boats. The overwhelming people of this country did not want that

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to happen -- get the vote. rights of prisoners to have a vote

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has been a voted on in the European Parliament. According to the Human

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Rights Act -- Human Rights Act, it has to be allowed. Can you see the

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tension? There is a tension, which is the point of the Human Rights

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Act. The point is that everybody has rights and they are meant to be

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enforced in a non-political, none emotional way. Prisoners are a good

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example of people that, because politicians don't have to rely on

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their boats, they don't have to enforce them. -- on their boating.

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Women didn't have the right to vote along time ago. Wouldn't you have

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had -- like to have had the right to vote when you were in prison?

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think that when you don't have a former prisoners, it is against

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human rights. We have a responsibility to reform. I don't

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care about judges, I don't care about these people, I don't care

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about the middle classes are talking to the under class, where

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most of the crime takes place this, and tell them what is good for them

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or not. What we want to do is the reform of people who get involved

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in crime and you can't do that when you are straddled by all of these

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human rights. As I said in my film, if that human rights was as good

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for the victim as it is for the perpetrator, and I don't read the

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tabloids cut that I am not a right- wing conservative... Julie is

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talking about the victims. What I would like to say no to any lawyers,

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any human rights lawyers watching this programme, start being braver

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and start using this act for the victims of crime. Particularly

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women and children. They really can apply the law in an appropriate way,

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and all we hear about, because actually the act has been used

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disproportionately for those accused of crimes, but anyone can

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be falsely accused and end up in prison, end up in a police cell,

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end up dying in a police cell, which is what is so important about

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this law. So a lawyer's, start using it bravely for the victims of

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You said you don't care about the criminals and the lawyers.

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saying I don't care about the judges. Let's talk to somebody who

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might care, Debbie. She has multiple sclerosis. You wanted to

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know if your husband would be prosecuted if you chose to commit

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suicide at some stage and he helped you. How did you use the Human

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Rights Act? We went to court... I have a right to understand the law

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and my right to understand what would happen to the people I love

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if I committed suicide. The thing is, the human rights law can be

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misused, it can be abused, it can be very one-sided Lee used, but

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without it we would be much -- a much poorer nation. I would not be

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alive today, and I love my life, if the human rights legislation, which

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our politicians are too scared of the electorate to deal with, if

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they had not said that I had a right to know what would happen in

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certain situations. We have to be very careful about not throwing the

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baby up with the bathwater. Why do you say you would not be alive

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today without it? I was in the middle... I did not believe we

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would necessarily win at court and I was losing the ability to control

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my hands myself. My MS was developing. That meant I would lose

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the ability to commit suicide myself and therefore have to ask

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somebody to help me. That meant they would face the possibility of

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prosecution. I needed to know what the situation was. I was halfway

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through arranging to go to Switzerland because I didn't know

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whether or not my husband would be prosecuted. Thank you so much.

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didn't get much of that argument. Can I return to what I think...

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Under the Human Rights Act, she managed to achieve clarity because

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of her right to a private and family life and it was agreed that

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she needed to have that clarity about what would happen if

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eventually her husband went with her to commit suicide. I would

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never dispute this Human Rights Act has a good side and a bad side.

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What I would dispute is the fact that if you talk to people in the

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street, and not all of them a tabloid readers, and I never read

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anything like that, there is a loss of a sense of justice because most

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crime is poor on poor. You have got poor on-board... That is not true.

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That is true. Sexual crime, domestic violence, child abuse,

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corporate crime. Can I finished the point? It is poor on poor crime.

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The perpetrator gets away with that and the victim gets left behind. I

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can give you countless examples over the past 10 years. I have met

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people who have suffered because of the way in which the courts have

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emphasise the human rights of the perpetrator and not the victim.

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Rebalancing. It is about getting justice. I have met countless

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people who have been badly served by the courts, badly served by the

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police, the CPS, the judiciary. That has nothing to do with the

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Human Rights Act. It is to do with a legal system not been perfect and

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that is why I am a feminist law campaigner. You have to reform the

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law, you have to push its boundaries to make it better. I

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agree that many victims of crime have been badly served, but many

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victims have been well served. human rights lawyer wanted to

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depict it as if it was tabloid newspapers and a few right wingers

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who want this, but actually when it comes to prisoners votes, the

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overwhelming majority in this country do not want prisoners to

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have votes. But because we are part of the Human Rights Act and the EU,

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they can impose VAT on us. That can't be right and that is widely

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want a referendum on the UK and then Mr Cameron can have his own

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Bill of Rights. We can have our own Human Rights Act and it can look at

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our particular circumstances. we are never going to get a Bill of

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Rights. As you pointed out earlier, we would have to withdraw from the

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EU. Why can't we do that? Which of the rights in the Human Rights Act

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would do not like? The right to liberty? The right to a fair trial?

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You have missed my point. That is about how courts interpret it.

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Isn't this just about interpreting it? Most people would agree with

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most points. It goes back to the Magna Carter, the idea of the

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judiciary and a jury and freedom of expression. Where people get angry

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is the fact that when our Parliament decide on some things,

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like prisoner votes, we can be overruled by the European Court.

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That is what we need to redress. will put that to the text Pole.

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am not against stopping torture! De deux it is a misinterpretation. A

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Sue says when we did get a slap from a teacher at school, we did

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not misbehave again. Absolutely. Don't we need that again? Somebody

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who described themselves as a beaten wife has got in touch. The

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police have failed to deliver me from intimidation, quoting my

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husband's human rights. That is what I hear all the time.

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criminal element know their human rights but forget... If you are a

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good citizen, you don't require any assistance to escape prosecution or

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deportation. A but many police officers don't actually understand

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the law. They don't know whether it is domestic law or human rights law.

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With all due respect to the police, if you send out a junior copper to

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of domestic violence incident and some don't take it seriously, they

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might use that human rights language. They mean it is the

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domestic law of this country which means there are certain

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circumstances where they can't arrest and prosecute. Lawyers tend

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to go for these cases like that idiot trying to get prisoners votes.

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That man who went down for manslaughter, that is the chap who

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now wants votes for prisoners. the lawyer trying to get Peter

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Sutcliffe out of prison, I absolutely agree, but that is not a

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fault of the human rights law, it is a fault in the application of it.

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How the spirit of the law. We could clearly devote a whole programme to

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discuss in this, but we have other things to discuss. The rights of

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our Parliament must, but Europe each and every time. Do you agree

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that we should get rid of the Human You have around 20 minutes before

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And something tells me this will be a lively programme!

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The ultimate, have-it-all female dream - a high-powered job in the

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boardroom and a nanny at home looking after the kids. But few

:23:27.:23:30.

women make it to the top and childcare costs are going through

:23:30.:23:32.

the roof. Should women re-think competing with men for scarce jobs

:23:32.:23:37.

and go back to being housewives? In a moment, Andrew Stone is joining

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us from Pineapple Dance Studios, who thinks this is a ridiculous

:23:39.:23:49.
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Unemployment rates are increasing and the number of unemployed women

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is now at its highest since the Thatcher years. In tight financial

:23:54.:24:00.

times it appears employers prefer to employ men. Is this just another

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battle on the road to equality or time to reassess what is most

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important? Work or parenting? Some studies show that children do

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better emotionally and educationally if one parent stays

:24:13.:24:20.

at home. Childcare costs are rising rapidly and in an average family,

:24:20.:24:24.

one partner's wage goes on nursery costs. Would it make more sense for

:24:24.:24:29.

women to stay at home instead and look after the children? Polls have

:24:29.:24:33.

shown that more than 50% of people would prefer not to work if they

:24:33.:24:38.

have kids. And if women were to leave the workplace, there would be

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more place -- jobs for men who could support their families. But

:24:42.:24:46.

why should it be women who give up their careers? In this week's A-

:24:46.:24:51.

level results, girls again outperformed boys. Shouldn't

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society want the best and brightest to be in work? And women have been

:24:55.:24:58.

fighting for equal treatment at work for decades, why should they

:24:58.:25:02.

give up now just because of the recession? So should women take a

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back seat in difficult economic times or is this just a bad excuse

:25:07.:25:14.

for good old-fashioned sexism? You can make your point on the

:25:14.:25:19.

webcam or join the conversation on Twitter. It might be tempting for

:25:19.:25:22.

me to be at home with the Georgian this morning, but do you think that

:25:22.:25:27.

is where I should be? Yes, he is cooking the Sunday roast. Their

:25:27.:25:33.

father! A I'm pulling your leg. I believe we had a better society

:25:33.:25:37.

when women stayed at home and looked after the children. It could

:25:37.:25:41.

be a man. But one parent should be at home and I say it should be the

:25:41.:25:46.

woman because the woman is the nurturer. Julie? When you told me

:25:46.:25:50.

about this topic, I thought you were having a laugh. I thought I

:25:50.:25:54.

had woken up in a TARDIS and found myself back in the 1950s. Would we

:25:54.:26:00.

sit here and have a conversation about apartheid in South Africa and

:26:00.:26:04.

say, well, all these black people who we are used to looking after

:26:04.:26:09.

our children and cleaning our houses, driving buses, cleaning

:26:10.:26:13.

latrines, really they should not be given proper jobs because they are

:26:13.:26:16.

there to serve us and we had a better service -- society under

:26:16.:26:21.

apartheid? We would not be having this discussion. It might have been

:26:21.:26:27.

better for men... Families. Better for families. A what about all of

:26:27.:26:34.

those women who have no children, who have -- who don't live with a

:26:34.:26:38.

man. We should make sure those women are encouraged to go out to

:26:38.:26:43.

work. You have Cameron saying lazy, single, scrounging mothers who get

:26:43.:26:48.

blamed for everything because they stay at home. What is different

:26:48.:26:54.

from some Doris Day figure baking cookies? I can't invite Andrew

:26:54.:27:00.

Stone into the studio but not ask him to contribute. What is your

:27:00.:27:06.

upbringing? My mum was a foster parent. She worked very hard to

:27:06.:27:13.

take me to dance classes. Spain did she stay at home with you? She did.

:27:13.:27:17.

I'm a great believer in equilibrium. If you play the numbers games, if

:27:17.:27:23.

you took all the men up the weight place, it would be just women. They

:27:23.:27:27.

add a great emotional environment into the workplace. I think women

:27:27.:27:35.

can do a job just as strong as men. Of course they can. I won't

:27:35.:27:38.

subscribe to this Doris Day thing. The tax breaks in this country, and

:27:38.:27:43.

the whole tax system, has been steered up to getting women back

:27:43.:27:48.

into the workplace. I think that is bad for society. Then I should be

:27:48.:27:53.

tax breaks so she can stay at home. I do not believe women should be

:27:53.:27:56.

treated as second-class citizens when they do the most important job,

:27:56.:28:03.

which his mother had. Her that this old chestnut! It is a fair point.

:28:03.:28:09.

Parenting is parenting. Exactly. you are breast-feeding or bottle-

:28:09.:28:15.

feeding, it is an issue about your physical presence. You talked about

:28:15.:28:18.

apartheid and having black people looking after children, all that

:28:18.:28:24.

happens now is that in professional middle-class women's case,

:28:24.:28:28.

Europeans look after their children. People like us Susannah perhaps

:28:28.:28:33.

should be at home. Single mothers get blamed for everything, a lot of

:28:33.:28:36.

women choose not to live in the regular family unit who don't have

:28:36.:28:40.

children. What are you going to say? Should you say there are not

:28:40.:28:45.

enough jobs to go around? There is no way this will ever go backwards.

:28:45.:28:49.

Shall we talk about the good society by going back 50 years? Can

:28:49.:28:53.

you imagine how it looks to children to have Daddy coming in

:28:53.:28:56.

with his briefcase, providing the money, and money mopping up the

:28:56.:29:03.

sickle des? For such a we asked Michel? So it wasn't better when we

:29:03.:29:13.
:29:13.:29:13.

Do Michelle Dixon is a stay at home mum. Are you a throwback to the

:29:13.:29:20.

1950s. Not at all! I am empowered because I have a choice in what I

:29:20.:29:27.

do. Both I chose to stay at home when we decided to have a family.

:29:27.:29:31.

We decided to have a mortgage we could afford on one wage so it gave

:29:31.:29:41.
:29:41.:29:48.

Her is there that pressure on women to go back to work? There is

:29:48.:29:52.

pressure, but some women want to go back to work, and that is the

:29:52.:29:55.

important thing, that we all have a choice where possible to lie that

:29:55.:30:02.

be at home or to go at work if that is what you prefer to do. Stephen

:30:02.:30:09.

is off of the Women Racket, should women have the choice -- author.

:30:09.:30:14.

course. Within less -- tend to be less attached to the labour market,

:30:14.:30:22.

so they lose their jobs in a recession. There are two

:30:22.:30:32.
:30:32.:30:32.

fundamental reasons for that, Women's preferences, our overall,

:30:32.:30:37.

about 10-15% of women prefer to work full-time and continuously

:30:37.:30:43.

like men. Over a quarter of them are a careerist -- only. By step

:30:43.:30:49.

them what to worker job, but only part time -- most of them. And

:30:49.:30:52.

there are fundamental differences between the sexes in motivation. A

:30:52.:30:58.

man without a job basically has no life, effectively. Women choose men

:30:58.:31:02.

with status. Been aware well, obviously that means a job and

:31:02.:31:10.

money. -- been aware world. There is some shaking off their head in

:31:10.:31:16.

the studio. -- shaking up the head. Men should be more encouraged to

:31:16.:31:19.

show their emotions and be part of the family. It should be a

:31:19.:31:24.

compromise between basically what you want individually and not being

:31:24.:31:30.

one way all the way. I think one of the reasons that so few women go

:31:30.:31:40.
:31:40.:31:43.

back to work... It is utter nonsense to suggest that women

:31:43.:31:49.

would suggest to be at home if they can't afford it, for one thing.

:31:49.:31:53.

Everything is made difficult in terms of returning to the workplace

:31:53.:31:58.

for women. We have no state childcare to talk of. That is why

:31:58.:32:01.

we are talking about for middle- class women, nannies from Eastern

:32:01.:32:06.

Europe. No working-class women I know can afford it. All of the

:32:06.:32:09.

working class women I know cannot afford not to go back to work. It

:32:09.:32:13.

is a ridiculous idea that we are even asking the question, should

:32:13.:32:18.

women have the right to choose? We are not infants, we are not living

:32:18.:32:24.

under apartheid, this is an equal and open society. I asked you not

:32:24.:32:28.

to cast aspersions over their a professional life of people not

:32:28.:32:36.

here to defend themselves, but isn't there a valid life --. Making

:32:36.:32:39.

-- isn't there valid point that a lot of women would simply choose to

:32:39.:32:43.

be at home but feel they have the work, either under societal

:32:43.:32:48.

pressure or economic pressure? is ridiculous to suggest that one

:32:48.:32:51.

person can present the group of statistics that speaks for all

:32:51.:32:58.

women in the entire labour market. That is what... We have actually

:32:58.:33:04.

moved on about talking about whether women should. We have made

:33:04.:33:07.

it almost impossible for the majority of women, but they sure

:33:07.:33:11.

are talking about very privileged women, to go back to work and rely

:33:11.:33:16.

on their partner to do their heart of the childcare. The problem here

:33:16.:33:19.

as well is that we have also devalued motherhood, and we have

:33:19.:33:24.

got a situation... My wife is a very clever woman, she has got a

:33:24.:33:30.

first, she has an AMA, she is going back to teaching it, we were lucky

:33:30.:33:34.

that with the economic wherewithal, we made a decision and it wasn't

:33:34.:33:42.

the chaining her to a kitchen sink. -- wasn't me. The bottom line is

:33:42.:33:46.

that we have devalued motherhood in our society. We should create tax

:33:46.:33:50.

breaks to hand back the idea of a proper family, which I am afraid,

:33:50.:33:55.

is a man and a woman married, bringing up their children. In your

:33:55.:33:59.

world, but not for many people. was a better world when people

:33:59.:34:02.

thought like that and did the old fashioned thing there, got married

:34:02.:34:07.

before they had children. Remember that old-fashioned thing? The idea

:34:07.:34:12.

of bringing up your family and giving them as security. But speak

:34:12.:34:19.

to Judith... You don't want to have children. Let's get some more

:34:19.:34:24.

expert testimony. Judith, you have been employed full-time and raised

:34:24.:34:30.

your children at the same time. Do the kids lose out? Not at all. And

:34:30.:34:33.

in my children, I really feel they have benefited from the fact that I

:34:33.:34:37.

have always been a working mother. It is true that I was lucky to be

:34:38.:34:42.

able to combine motherhood with a full-time career, at that had left

:34:42.:34:52.
:34:52.:34:53.

the Army. -- After. I became a head mistress. My children and I have

:34:53.:34:58.

fantastic discussions, debates, and arguments. I am not to stay at home

:34:58.:35:02.

mum, they have often had to do their own washing and they don't

:35:02.:35:12.
:35:12.:35:13.

have people rushing around after them. It encourages independence

:35:13.:35:21.

from the children... A what does? Judit, when she went out to work. -

:35:21.:35:26.

- Judit. Were they at boarding school or were they in a day

:35:26.:35:32.

school? It was a boarding school. End of argument. That is how you

:35:32.:35:37.

get the balance, you send them to boarding school. Let her finish

:35:37.:35:42.

have point. This is somebody who put her children in boarding school

:35:42.:35:46.

and she is trying to tell me she was their mother at home with them.

:35:46.:35:50.

Let me speak, they didn't go to boarding school until they were 13,

:35:50.:35:55.

and that was bought their benefit. I thought they would get... At --

:35:56.:36:03.

that was four. When they were very small, I was there and I was never

:36:03.:36:08.

not in full-time employment. I have to interrupt, not because of want

:36:08.:36:14.

to stop you making a point, but it is a shame that the sound quality

:36:14.:36:18.

is so poor. They didn't go to boarding school until they were 13.

:36:18.:36:22.

Nobody is suggesting these children were at home on their own. What I'm

:36:22.:36:26.

trying to say that if we valued motherhood and got back to a

:36:26.:36:30.

situation where there were tax breaks, and they father could go

:36:30.:36:34.

out and work or whether they are stay at home that, at what I'm

:36:34.:36:40.

saying is, as a society, it was better when we had back. I don't

:36:40.:36:46.

recall that riots happening... want to watch at -- ask Andrew. You

:36:46.:36:53.

work with a lot of women. By have been around women all my life -- I

:36:53.:36:59.

have. It all of those working mothers were taken out of the work

:36:59.:37:08.

force, what kind of place would it be like -- if? Boring. Nobody is

:37:08.:37:15.

saying that. Like his couple when you have different things going on.

:37:15.:37:21.

-- life is colourful. How many children have you got, Andrew?

:37:21.:37:27.

There by choice. I am just asking the question. You haven't got a

:37:27.:37:33.

family. These are very small group of extremely privileged women who

:37:34.:37:40.

can afford to be at home. And in fact, often, I would rather not go

:37:40.:37:45.

up to work and take my dog out for a walk. Play with the cats. Is that

:37:45.:37:50.

all women do when they are at home, that is the meaning of! Because

:37:50.:37:56.

motherhood is so difficult if they do not have as much support from at

:37:56.:38:00.

the far that or they partner, they obviously want to stay at home

:38:00.:38:03.

because they are exhausted -- from the father. And it is difficult for

:38:03.:38:07.

them to get back into the workplace. Many women don't get so fissured

:38:07.:38:12.

maternity leave, and I am sorry that you don't have a working class

:38:12.:38:20.

woman on who tells her story about why she cannot go back to work.

:38:20.:38:24.

Coming up on Sunday morning Live, the riots are making us take a long

:38:25.:38:29.

hard look at our children, our parenting and our police. Should

:38:29.:38:34.

they also make us look at hour watching habits? Has reality TV

:38:34.:38:40.

damaged our morals? You can make your views known by phone, by e-

:38:40.:38:45.

your views known by phone, by e- mail or online. And keep the voting

:38:45.:38:49.

in the text poll. Should we get rid in the text poll. Should we get rid

:38:49.:38:59.
:38:59.:39:06.

There is around five minutes before the poll closes.

:39:06.:39:11.

It is time to chew over some of the key moral moments of the week. It

:39:11.:39:14.

is the second anniversary of the freeing up the Lockerley it --

:39:14.:39:20.

Lockerbie bombing Abdelbaset al Megrahi, and apparently he is still

:39:20.:39:23.

alive because of the British drug that is not available to patients

:39:23.:39:29.

in the UK. To some people, it is irony upon irony in this case.

:39:29.:39:34.

issue for me, and the only issue, is that this illustrates how a rich

:39:34.:39:38.

people can get their hands on medicine at often poorer people

:39:38.:39:44.

cannot command that is something we really need to look at -- that. If

:39:44.:39:48.

there are medicines that can keep people alive, relieve pain and

:39:48.:39:52.

reduce discomfort, we should all have access to it. That worries me

:39:52.:39:57.

about the failing NHS system. That to me is the only issue. Everybody

:39:57.:40:02.

has a right to medical treatment. He should never have been released,

:40:02.:40:06.

this man murdered those people, let's make no mistake about that.

:40:06.:40:10.

He was affected be released by Gordon Brown and sent back to Libya,

:40:10.:40:12.

where I understand he wants political asylum in Scotland

:40:12.:40:17.

because he thinks he will be safer. I agree but it is that the issue.

:40:17.:40:21.

The bottom line is that the man should not have been released and

:40:21.:40:26.

it is an insult he is getting this treatment. Not that I want him to

:40:26.:40:29.

die in abject pain, but the simple bottom line is that Gordon Brown,

:40:29.:40:35.

it was a filthy, squalid deal put together by the Scottish Parliament

:40:35.:40:41.

and Gordon Brown with Gaddafi. The whole thing is sick beyond belief.

:40:41.:40:45.

Jon, you were talking earlier about going back to the good old days.

:40:45.:40:50.

Here is a couple who have renewed their wedding vows and it warned

:40:50.:40:56.

your heart. 60 years on, and they had a photograph where they had all

:40:56.:41:01.

of their original bridesmaids with them. It was a lovely story, it was

:41:01.:41:04.

a couple who got married 60 years ago and they got together with the

:41:04.:41:08.

bridesmaid and did their copycat photograph. It was in one of the

:41:08.:41:11.

newspapers in the week and they put them all in the same position. It

:41:11.:41:16.

was nice, in our fragmented society and we have been talking about the

:41:16.:41:19.

break-up of families, to see a relationship that has stood the

:41:19.:41:24.

test of time. 60 years there seems like such a challenge. Especially

:41:24.:41:28.

these days, when everybody seems to be splitting up. It is so nice to

:41:28.:41:32.

have a news story that is so positive and I wish there were few

:41:32.:41:36.

more of those. There is so much good out there and we love to see a

:41:36.:41:40.

bit of drama in the papers, we are a nation who loves gossip, but it

:41:40.:41:45.

is nice to see a bit of a lot going on. Good news doesn't sell, though.

:41:45.:41:51.

You would know! I did say it was a nice story but I don't want the

:41:51.:41:56.

papers for lathered. We have paid as full of criticisms of they

:41:56.:42:05.

politicians -- papers. Anna Hazare acid been on hunger strike in the

:42:05.:42:07.

protest at the corruption of the Indian government -- has been on

:42:08.:42:12.

hunger strike. He has been compared to Gandhi in some ways, become a

:42:12.:42:16.

bit of a national symbol. He is standing up for something he

:42:16.:42:20.

believes in, would you like it or not, the human essence of that is

:42:20.:42:26.

amazing. A conviction campaigner. We need heroes. We need to be

:42:26.:42:31.

inspired by those who are tenacious. I don't go big on martyrdom,

:42:31.:42:36.

although people have died for very noble cause this, and I hope he

:42:36.:42:41.

stays safe -- causes. He is a conviction politician whereas we

:42:42.:42:44.

have politicians fall of convictions after the expenses

:42:44.:42:50.

scandal! Bashful of. I would like to go back to having people like

:42:50.:42:52.

this on the left and the right in this country who actually believe

:42:52.:42:55.

in what they are doing, whereas I believe we have the kind of

:42:56.:43:00.

politics there which is not a bad believe, it is about power.

:43:00.:43:04.

what the newspaper editors say. Indian newspapers are not so

:43:05.:43:08.

optimistic. One of them says that business as usual is right around

:43:08.:43:12.

the corner. You have been voting in the text poll this morning. We have

:43:12.:43:17.

been asking if we should get rid of the Human Rights Act. Do not text

:43:17.:43:21.

again because the poll is now closing, we will bring you the

:43:21.:43:28.

result at the end of the programme. Some people have blamed the

:43:28.:43:31.

troubles of the past few weeks on our obsession with a vacuous

:43:31.:43:35.

celebrity culture, and there are plenty of reality shows feeding

:43:35.:43:39.

back fix, from The Only Way Is Essex to Celebrity Big Brother and

:43:39.:43:43.

the X-factor -- X Factor. Light entertainment or heavy damage to

:43:43.:43:47.

the moral health of the country? John Bird, who has fronted a

:43:47.:43:52.

reality TV show himself, will be back to debate that in a moment.

:43:52.:43:57.

After this, which contains flash photography.

:43:58.:44:01.

Millions of us watch reality TV and share the joy as people's hopes and

:44:01.:44:06.

dreams come true. But we also watched with morbid fascination as

:44:06.:44:13.

people are humiliated. Or you go on about his you, you, you. -- all.

:44:13.:44:18.

Those reality TV damaged our moral compass and help us revel in other

:44:18.:44:23.

people's stupidity and misery? won't talk about the morality, but

:44:23.:44:27.

I find it compulsive. We are now used to people becoming famous

:44:27.:44:32.

simply because they are run reality TV. Does this warp our notions of

:44:32.:44:37.

success, deterring young people from chasing proper careers? Or can

:44:37.:44:45.

light entertainment also bring Reality stars like Jade Goody can

:44:45.:44:50.

win our sympathy and highlight important causes. After her death,

:44:50.:44:56.

many more women remember to go for their smear tests. And the conflict

:44:56.:44:59.

Jade and shopper shirty had on big brother raised important questions

:44:59.:45:03.

about racism. When TV first became part of our lives, families

:45:04.:45:09.

gathered round it to hear news of war or the moon landings. Today

:45:09.:45:13.

reality TV also draws families and the nation together around the TV

:45:13.:45:19.

set. Invaluable common ground when our communities and families are so

:45:19.:45:25.

fragmented. Does reality TV make us last after fame and money that we

:45:25.:45:29.

can never possess or does it just provide a little bit of

:45:29.:45:33.

entertainment and light amidst the current gloom?

:45:33.:45:41.

John Bird is back. You can join in by webcam or by phone, e-mail or

:45:41.:45:46.

online. His reality TV a good thing? You fronted a reality TV

:45:46.:45:56.
:45:56.:45:59.

show. I watched one version of by the celebrity get me out of here. I

:45:59.:46:03.

became absolutely obsessed with it. I made sure I was at home and that

:46:03.:46:10.

sort of thing. At the end of it, I felt quite soiled because I thought,

:46:10.:46:15.

God, if this can con me and can take over my life, what will it do

:46:15.:46:22.

for other people who may not have the full life I lead, rushing here

:46:22.:46:26.

and there? It seemed to me as though at the end of it, it was a

:46:26.:46:31.

bit like a terrible form of drugs supplied by the TV companies.

:46:31.:46:36.

do you think that about a reality TV show? People planned their lives

:46:36.:46:44.

around Downton Abbey. That is true. They can't have much of a life! For

:46:44.:46:49.

not speaking personally. People like looking through other people's

:46:49.:46:54.

windows, people like to know. We are incredibly nosy as a species.

:46:54.:46:59.

The very idea that we can see these people with their knickers down,

:46:59.:47:04.

metaphorically speaking, Carol Thatcher having a pony or whatever

:47:04.:47:10.

she was doing, we love it. I think it becomes obsessive. What I hate

:47:10.:47:14.

is that I want those people to get off their backsides and go out and

:47:14.:47:22.

change society. In a sense, it takes energy from people, it takes

:47:22.:47:27.

skills and abilities that could be used in society. That is a

:47:27.:47:31.

particular issue from reality TV and not just people sitting and

:47:31.:47:36.

watching hours of TV? I am only talking about really take --

:47:36.:47:40.

reality TV because I became an addict to a series. Your programmes

:47:40.:47:46.

are like drugs? If you are weak to that kind of thing, you can get

:47:46.:47:55.

sucked in. A That's me! Sorry! Pineapple Dance Studios, people

:47:55.:47:57.

can't stop watching because they can't wait to see the next thing

:47:57.:48:04.

that will happen. Technically, that wasn't a reality show, but there

:48:04.:48:11.

was a slight reality to it. wasn't my reality. Perhaps that is

:48:11.:48:15.

part of the fascination, it is an insight into a reality none of us

:48:15.:48:19.

could otherwise experience. It is full of surprises, you don't know

:48:19.:48:24.

what will happen next. It is not scripted. All of those things make

:48:24.:48:28.

it very, very addictive. But it is not hurting anyone, it is

:48:28.:48:32.

entertainment. Pump -- some people come out as stars and some don't.

:48:32.:48:37.

It is not hurting anyone? The only worry is that it means that kids

:48:37.:48:43.

up... I was talking Andrew and he was telling me he worked with Tina

:48:43.:48:47.

Turner. People in -- people like Tina Turner had to work in the

:48:48.:48:52.

club's four years and years to get where they have got to. A lot of

:48:52.:48:56.

kids think they can go on the X Factor and suddenly become a star.

:48:56.:49:00.

I do worry that it makes younger people think everything can be

:49:00.:49:05.

there without working hard. Shall we ask somebody who has been on X

:49:05.:49:11.

Factor? And the Abraham, former X- Factor contestant. -- Andy Abraham.

:49:11.:49:15.

You worked hard for a long time before you appeared on X Factor,

:49:15.:49:18.

but does it give the impression there is instant gratification to

:49:18.:49:25.

be had? Yes, there isn't an instant fame element to it. Especially when

:49:25.:49:34.

you win the show and you sell a million singles, it is impossible

:49:34.:49:39.

to keep that success going, do you Know What I Mean? The reality is

:49:39.:49:44.

after the show has finished, you have to keep that momentum going

:49:44.:49:50.

somehow. Do you think it can have an effect on those people who get

:49:50.:49:54.

promoted by the reality TV shows, it can have a negative effect on

:49:54.:50:03.

them? Of course it can. Thi I know of some contestants that have been

:50:03.:50:08.

traumatised by the whole episode. As much as I believe X-Factor is a

:50:09.:50:14.

good thing, especially for mature singers like myself, because the

:50:14.:50:22.

industry, the music industry is very ageist. Someone like myself,

:50:22.:50:27.

who was 40, it did me the world of good. People got to see my family

:50:27.:50:33.

and how I grew up and my story. That is interesting. People were

:50:33.:50:38.

fascinated by Andy's story. He would not have got that sort of

:50:38.:50:43.

promotion anywhere else. People learned a lot. This is one of the

:50:43.:50:46.

most annoying things about everything. Everything has a good

:50:46.:50:51.

side, but it also has a bad side. We have to work Celt, is there more

:50:51.:50:56.

of a bad side than a good side? -- work out. If you compare a lot of

:50:56.:50:59.

reality shows to things like Strictly Come Dancing, Strictly

:50:59.:51:08.

Come Dancing has led to, according to a mate of mine running a dance

:51:08.:51:13.

studio, a lot of people getting out and dancing. If this leads to

:51:13.:51:16.

people training their voices or learning other things, without

:51:16.:51:21.

getting delusional... Can I say something? I used to think things

:51:21.:51:26.

like X-Factor did not do that. My mate runs a free and easy on a

:51:26.:51:30.

Monday night and there is a whole crop of new kids coming up who are

:51:30.:51:35.

playing guitars and singing, solar acts, a lot of women as well. --

:51:35.:51:45.
:51:45.:51:46.

solo acts. You have used this as an opportunity to promote a bar!

:51:46.:51:52.

kids are incredibly talented. Where have they come from? Maybe it is

:51:52.:51:56.

doing something. I'm sure that is mirrored all over the country.

:51:56.:52:03.

There is some good in it. If you're a sportsman, I used to box, and if

:52:03.:52:07.

you are in the gym all the time, boxing and boxing and boxing, you

:52:07.:52:11.

would not be causing grief on the streets, you would not be rubbing

:52:11.:52:19.

JD Sports. There is always an element to it. But the obsessional

:52:19.:52:26.

way people go one about the X Factor or the jungle. Ice a, get a

:52:26.:52:36.
:52:36.:52:41.

life. -- I say, get a life. Anna is editor of Star magazine. Isn't

:52:41.:52:46.

abuse entertainment, humiliation, degradation as entertainment, the

:52:46.:52:56.
:52:56.:52:57.

magazines and media are profiting from that. Hello? I disagree with

:52:57.:53:03.

that entirely. It is purely entertainment, people don't have to

:53:03.:53:07.

buy these magazines, they don't have to watch these shows. There is

:53:07.:53:13.

a choice. People should have a right to that choice. John said

:53:13.:53:17.

sometimes there is something addictive about these shows. The

:53:17.:53:21.

media rely on that because they want them to keep watching so they

:53:21.:53:23.

continually put things into the story lines which keep people

:53:23.:53:30.

hooked. Exactly. I accept these shows can be quite addictive. But

:53:30.:53:33.

it is purely entertainment and who are we to say what people should

:53:33.:53:39.

and should not watch? The danger is the editing. Especially with X

:53:40.:53:44.

Factor. They cast people and then there is a sob story and then Simon

:53:44.:53:48.

Cowell will beat them up. We see that a lot in other stars were you

:53:48.:53:51.

might go into the jungle thinking you are one thing, and the way they

:53:51.:53:56.

portray you, and Big Brother, that can be dangerous. Magazines fuel

:53:56.:54:02.

VAT. There is a danger. If it is a celebrity, who cares? You have to

:54:02.:54:07.

know what you're going into. If anybody does audition for those

:54:07.:54:10.

programmes, understand what you're going into. They can find a way of

:54:10.:54:16.

editing you because they want to put bums on seats. They did that to

:54:16.:54:21.

meet in my programme. We put some people on the streets. At the end

:54:21.:54:26.

of it I looked like an outraged, aggressive rather than a sweet,

:54:26.:54:31.

kind, nice person. It was so strange that they did take the

:54:31.:54:37.

grief parts and did not put the conciliatory part. Her Marjory is

:54:37.:54:42.

chief executive of the mental health charity. You have compared

:54:42.:54:46.

these programmes to Victorian freak shows, of a damaging? Yes, I do

:54:46.:54:50.

think they are damaging. Not only for the people who take part, but

:54:51.:54:58.

to the crowd who go a long, as they did in Victorian times, to laugh at

:54:58.:55:08.
:55:08.:55:10.

the freaks. It Blunts and corrupt things and it also reminds me of

:55:10.:55:15.

those experiments we used to do as psychology students in the 60s and

:55:15.:55:19.

70s were you deprived people of sleep and sensory stimulation, you

:55:19.:55:25.

put them into a cage rather than a house, and see how much stress they

:55:25.:55:30.

can endure. At least in those experiments, although they are not

:55:30.:55:35.

forgivable, you tried to get information. Here, your soul end

:55:35.:55:42.

his financial greed and ratings. I got lost half way through that.

:55:42.:55:47.

It is like putting people in cages and see how they react. That is

:55:48.:55:50.

basically saying they are not intelligent enough to know what

:55:50.:55:54.

they're getting involved in. You have to know what you're getting

:55:54.:55:59.

involved in. We are not Rats, we are humans. Lisa is a former Big

:55:59.:56:03.

Brother contestant, did you know what you were getting involved in?

:56:03.:56:11.

I don't think I did. Maybe I was a bit vulnerable. However, it was

:56:11.:56:16.

supposed to be a row yet -- reality TV programme. I was told not to

:56:16.:56:20.

have an agent, and why we don't need an agent, because I thought it

:56:20.:56:25.

was about having fun and a psychological experience. What was

:56:25.:56:30.

the effect on you afterwards? was brutal. I got told I was

:56:30.:56:37.

Britain's most hated women, I had every part of my body torn apart.

:56:37.:56:43.

It litany having plastic surgery. I got the gender question from a

:56:43.:56:49.

silly throwaway comment. We have a couple of e-mails on this. Reality

:56:49.:56:54.

TV is escapism in a world of woe, nothing more, nothing less. Alex

:56:54.:56:58.

says, there is nothing real about reality TV, most are scripted and

:56:58.:57:04.

shows like the X Factor manipulate viewers into voting a certain way.

:57:04.:57:07.

Soaps are violent with characters that shout and hit an scheme

:57:07.:57:13.

against each other. We have a reality to get to

:57:13.:57:17.

ourselves, the result of the text poll. Should we get rid of the

:57:17.:57:27.
:57:27.:57:31.

Human Rights Act? This is what you 89% said no. We should keep it.

:57:31.:57:41.

Well... That is up to them. As I said, I don't come from this from

:57:41.:57:45.

right wing angle. I'd just come at it as a person who was commissioned

:57:45.:57:50.

to work with the poor. I worked with the pork and I see the poor

:57:50.:57:54.

suffering because they don't get justice. -- a poor. I don't care

:57:54.:57:59.

about judges, I don't think judges know a lot about justice. It is

:57:59.:58:05.

about the spirit of the law. I do apologise. This is an embarrassment.

:58:05.:58:09.

Unfortunately because of a technical hitch, it will undermine

:58:09.:58:14.

what you just said, the poll result was the wrong way round. 89% of

:58:14.:58:19.

those who voted said yes, we should get rid of the Human Rights Act.

:58:19.:58:26.

John Bird, Andrew Stone from Pineapple Dance Studios, Jon Gaunt and Julie Bindel debate: Should we get rid of the human rights act? Should women stay at home and look after the kids? Is reality TV damaging Britain?


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