Episode 8 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 8

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Are this week's of rioters really so marginalised and disconnected?

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They join gangs, social media, and they joined together to looked JD

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Sports. Should we make them joined Good morning. Welcome to a Sunday

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Morning Live special. As a calm of sorts descends on a week of

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national disgrace, is their real value in asking if national service

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is an answer? When 16,000 police showed up on the

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streets of London, the rioters stayed out of it. Should we ask our

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police force to show more force? And they did not once at

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Waterstone's, they went for trainers, mobiles, flat screen

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tellies. Should we. A collective finger at consumer greed?

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My guests this week all have shades of serious disorder in their past.

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Terry Christian got his first TV break warning that politician riots

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were on the way in 1981. He has since -- since worked with youth

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groups on TV and on the streets was a Sheldon Thomas was once a gang

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leader. These days, he helps kids in London

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escape gangs. And conservative author Douglas

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Murray was once banned from speaking at the LSE for fear that

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he would provoke a riot. We would like to know what you

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think about the riots. Were you a victim or a participant? Call now

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The events this week showed that parents, schools and even the

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courts are struggling to control some of our kids. Is it time to let

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the army have a go and bring back National Service? Some blamed this

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week's riots on the breakdown of the family. They are feral rats.

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What are those parents doing? ..Where parents have failed to

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teach kids about values and boundaries, the gangs have

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sometimes stepped in. They act as a surrogate family, setting

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boundaries and rules, telling members who they should respect,

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what they should wear and where they can go, giving them a sense of

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belonging. But if we do not want the gangs to bring up our kids,

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perhaps the army could. Could the army build in how young a sense of

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pride, self-respect, identity and community? Would national service,

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a compulsory period in the military forces, provide an alternative to

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the gangs? We could follow the example of countries like Israel or

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Greece, who have national service. But it has not prevented the youth

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of Greece from rioting. And there would be huge costs involved in

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calling up, feeding, housing and training each generation. The riots

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have revealed a country split apart. Would a shared experience of

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service to the nation he will that rift?

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Terry, is it tempting to think it might be a solution? National

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Service? I am not sure how it squares with the fact that there

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are record numbers of ex-servicemen in prison at the moment, but why

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let the facts get in a way of a We will bring you the result of the

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vote at the end of the programme. There are already record numbers of

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ex-servicemen in prison at the moment. So if you make kids do

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national service for a year or two years, and then you take them out

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of the army and put them back on to an estate with high unemployment,

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it will not necessarily give them a job. And then perhaps you will have

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a better trained kind of gangster on the street. Does that undermine

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the argument for, Douglas? The for the last election, David Cameron

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talked about a form of national service which would not be entirely

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to do with military training. I would be in favour of something

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which the six months or a year encouraged young people to

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understand that society they live in will only get better if they

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take a part in it. If we can instil that somehow by an experience which

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would not have to be military, it could be all sorts of volunteering

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things, working in the charitable sector, working with other youth

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groups. If you could set something up that instilled from an early age

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the idea that society is there as, and it is in their care and they

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have to take part in it. Like getting them a real job that pays

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properly. But there aren't any. Sheldon, apologies for the sound

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issue we just had. Sheldon, you used to be a member of gangs. You

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are now helping kids come out of gangs. What do these young people

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get from gangs, and could that be replicated in a positive way by

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sending them for some sort of service? I do not agree with

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national service. If anybody needs national service, it is the

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politicians, because they are out of control. Some of the things they

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are saying, they are clearly clueless and not understanding what

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is happening with young people and the underclass that they are

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causing. To answer your question, families is where you get a sense

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of identity. Families is way you get a sense of belonging. I do not

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see how national service can replace family structure. But could

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it replace gang structure? I do not think so. The only thing that can

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replace gang culture his family structure. We need to focus on that.

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All these knee-jerk reactions are ludicrous. We need to focus on the

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real problems, which are broken families. We need to focus on that.

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If we start doing these knee-jerk reactions about bringing back

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National Service or introducing it, these politicians are proving that

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they are not worthy to be in positions of power. It is your

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black cab driver's solution to the world, bring back National Service.

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I always distrust anybody that comes up with what I call these Pot

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Noodle, instant solutions. Just add hot water and stir a bit. You hear

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a lot of this. With the riots this week, you are talking about

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National Service now. I read all these commentators in the Guardian

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and the Times and the Telegraph, and I feel depressed. It is like

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they have their world view, they shoehorn events in to fit their

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world-view. Society is becoming too liberal, that is why they are all

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rioting(!) Then why can't the streets of Amsterdam full of Dutch

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writers? Douglas? I am not answering for the new rich people

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Terry is criticising, but no one is saying that national service would

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replace family. The problem is that we have across our society a whole

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set of problems:. Which are underpinned by families. One of the

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fundamental things is absolutely the breakdown of the family. But

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you cannot wish that to happen, you have to assist it and you have to

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assist people to do part of a community and a nation. Major

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General Tim Cross worked on reconstruction in Iraq. What would

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be the value for these young people who may have come from broken homes,

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to then be taken out of those homes and given compulsory national

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service? Tim, I knew there? I am here. Good morning. Sorry, we seem

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to have gremlins on the line. But we can hear you now. To begin with,

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I suspect the reality is that the practical implications and the lack

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of political will mean that bringing back National Service as

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it was will not happen. But why do so many people seem to think we

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need to bring it back? That is the real question. The military, like

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any other organisation, is made up of flawed human beings. We do not

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get it all right. There are a couple of issues. Firstly, we have

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a lot of positive role models in the military. And we have leaders

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of a genuine character and courage, not just physical courage, but

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moral courage. So unlike many organisations, the military are not

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afraid to talk about and then put into practice things like selfless

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commitment, loyalty, integrity, sense of duty, trust and respect.

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The military is a place where we have rights, but we also have

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responsibilities, and we teach it to people so that when they go out

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on patrol in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, knowing that there is

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a chance they will be injured or killed, it is because they sense in

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the military a strong sense of identity and purpose, and they feel

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part of what we call the regimental family. Sheldon? Those are the

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things that organisations on the frontline teacher. We have

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organisations in places like Hackney and Newham that teach

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exactly what he is talking about, but are completely underfunded. How

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can you switch to an argument from legs do National Service as some

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sort of knee-jerk reaction, and not focus on this Big Society thing

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that David Cameron was painting? The minute you get a chance to

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reinvest in the frontline organisations that teach identity,

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that each had to deal with empowerment, that each have to

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bring a young person from that feeling of helplessness into one of

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hope, and now you want to say, we are not going to invest in those

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organisations, we should just bring back National Service? Implication

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is that it is all young people in those areas. I grew up on a council

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estate. OK, it was a different era, with less pressure and there were

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some options to get out of it. There was social mobility. But the

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majority them were appalled innocent bystanders to these riots.

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Tim, Terry raised a point earlier, which was that firstly, people can

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have problems even while they are in the army. And secondly, that

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when people come out of military service, there are well-documented

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accounts of people struggling to readjust. Record numbers of ex-

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servicemen are in prison. So you may have a situation where you have

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these young people, you train them up in the army, and then let them

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loose on the streets. Would that be better? I do not know if they're

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actually record numbers. This is from the Guardian in 2008. Allow me

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to make my point. You asked me where it came from. Let me reply to

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the question. I started by Save the military organisation is made up of

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flawed human beings and it would not be right to suggest that we do

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not have problems in the military. But it is in the context of the

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regimental system. We have our problems, but the regimental family

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are there to deal with it and to try to bring it together. When

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people leave, undoubtedly we have people in trouble. We will have a

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lot of young people coming out of the military over the next few

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years who will end up with post- traumatic stress syndrome and those

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sorts of issues. They will end up in trouble. But that does not

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detract from the fact that the military structure and what it does

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is a place that people look and then say yes, we could do with more

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of this. I agree with your panel and I have no problem in suggesting

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that we should invest in this sort of thing in different areas of our

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system, the education system, the clubs and the other places your

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panel members have been talking about. Lynsey Germanies from the

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stop the war coalition. Those values that Major General Tim Cross

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mentions - loyalty, commitment, a sense of identity and positive male

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role models, those are hard to argue with, aren't they? Well, they

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do come from all sorts of different institutions in society. The role

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of the army, particularly in recent years, has been a violent roll, a

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role to do with killing. As Terry has pointed out, you have to go to

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some lengths to train people to be desensitised enough to do this kind

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of thing. And many of them face great problems, both within the

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army and when they leave the Army. Not just in terms of domestic

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violence and housing problems and hopelessness and alcoholism. It is

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wrong to suggest that... SOUND PROBLEMS.

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A Lynsey, I would interrupt you because we are having sound

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problems with the line. Let me stress again that the ideas of

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national service that have been suggested by politicians at the

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moment are not a one-size-fits-all military solution. But it might be

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worth thinking of a more nuanced approach to the system, whereby

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there are types of national service which have nothing to do with the

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military. But they may well suit and help train up young people and

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not only helped them to have a sense of belonging, but also help

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them into the career they would go into. It is not just to bring

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people into marching. We are talking about the army. Let me

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bring some truth here. This is what the young people I work with C. I

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worked with gang members. They see billions of pounds being spent on

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wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya. And then they see the same

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prime minister coming back here and telling everybody there are no jobs,

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there will be massive redundancies, no apprenticeships. So you are

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saying, let's give more investment to the army to go and deal with a

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problem that should be invested locally to organisations. I am not

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going to just listened to us talk about the army as if to say that

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that is some sort of answer, when what is the answer is investment

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into local communities, organisations that are struggling

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because �5 billion are being spent People on the streets of London

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don't care about Iraq and Afghanistan. They care about their

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personal life. They care about the fact they haven't got a job.

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can't be either. No! It might not be allowing genocide in Libya or

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you getting more food. For you to suggest it is OK to spend �5

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billion of our money in this country on a war that none of us

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have asked for. There are plenty of people who don't think any

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government should be allowed to commit genocide. When you say

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genocide... Can I put those points... What about Rolando? --

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and Rwanda. You look at this from two sides. You did Israeli national

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service and you are a criminologist. Correct. What value could that

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National Service have been preventing crime? The first thing

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is it gives them something to do while they are at a vulnerable age.

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If you're 18 or 19 and it had something to do, instead of being

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on the streets, you can do national service. We spoke about the

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military, but there are all sorts of things you can do way you don't

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have to see combat. I understand the argument about Iraq and

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Afghanistan, but the issue is whether this sort of intervention

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will decrease crime and I think it could. It introduces the melting

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pot between different sections of society. Different people from

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different backgrounds come together and they do something for the

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common goal and it seems like a good idea that we have had positive

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experiences with this in a lot of places around the world. It can be

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technology, computers, police, hospitals, schools. They can tie up

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a national service to different benefits. Child tax credits. If you

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did a couple of years of military service or any other service, maybe

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you can get tuition paid for by the government. Thank you. A viewer has

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got in touch. Eric. You served in the Army? Do you think more people

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should? A no because I don't think the army should be used as a

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probation service. The army is a small, highly trained, technical

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streamlined a fighting force, it is not there to teach the sort of

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people we have seen it on our streets respect, manners and

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behaviour that they should have been taught from day one at home. I

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think it is quite wrong that the army should even be considered as a

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training ground for those sorts of people. Quite frankly, I don't

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think the government ought to do it anyway. The infrastructure... Money

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:19:09.:19:11.

could be better spent... SOUND PROBLEMS.

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That is our text Paul today. Should national service be compulsory for

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all young people? If you think it You have around 20 minutes before

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The police get it in the neck when they are too tough on the streets

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and then we lambast them for next week for not being tough enough.

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This week David Cameron suggested plastic bullets, water cannon and

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back-up from the army. Have the seven days in August made up your

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mind? This is a public order warning. Will all members of the

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public pleas disburse now? As the law on our streets broke down,

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citizens were forced to defend themselves. If the Met is not here,

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tough luck, we will take the law into our own hands. Would they have

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had to have done this if the rioters had feared the police more?

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It took 16,000 police officers to calm the capital. Those numbers are

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not sustainable. David Cameron said this week the police were too timid

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in their response and they need the confidence to use more force.

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Whatever tactics the police feel they need to employ, they will have

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legal backing to do so. Nothing is off the table. In just one week,

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weapons associated with the troubles in Northern Ireland were

:20:49.:20:55.

being suggested for use on the streets of England. But some argue

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it was the use of force in the police shooting of Mark Duggan

:20:59.:21:03.

which triggered the violence in Tottenham. So would more police

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violence simply breed more public violence? There are already

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concerns over how much force was used in previous civil unrest and

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some say that criticism has made the police too wary of cracking

:21:17.:21:21.

down this time. Others say those out on the streets deserved all

:21:21.:21:31.
:21:31.:21:32.

they got. And if you have a webcam, you can make your point to us.

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You can also join the conversation on Twitter.

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And now we welcome a vicar from Hackney, the Reverend Rose Hunt son.

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Good morning. -- Rose Hunt some. More proactive policing and perhaps

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more force have -- would they have shut things down earlier? I don't

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know about force. What I do know is that perhaps more police presence

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would have been helpful, but clearly as the police have set

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themselves, they did not have the numbers. I was in Hackney at the

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time when they were throwing things. There was a thin blue line of

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police officers and I was shattered to see the bricks and bottles being

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thrown at people, ordinary human beings. The police are not an alien

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force, they are people's husbands and wives and brothers and fathers.

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They needed reinforcement, they got reinforcement and restore calm.

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Douglas, it was flooding the streets with police, wasn't it,

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that brought this to an end? Absolutely. There have been some

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people who have gone way over the top of what they think should now

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happen. We are sitting in Belfast and Belfast knows well that if you

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start putting soldiers on the streets, things can escalate very

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fast and I think that is a bad idea. Ba there has been a terrible loss

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of public confidence in the police by the fact that a large number of

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members of the public have seen the police holding back, allowing not

:23:12.:23:16.

just criminality and looting, but also in some cases members of the

:23:16.:23:21.

public being attacked by those people. And the police seeming not

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to have taken the role they should have done to protect the public.

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There has been a huge loss of confidence in the police and it

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will take a lot of work from the plate -- police do get back that

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confidence. Terry, too timid? kind of agree with what Douglas has

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said. There is a feeling that the police force have been slightly

:23:41.:23:46.

emasculated, possibly because of prosecutions and Ian Thomson's

:23:46.:23:50.

death. He was a harmless man and all of the kettling that went on,

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killed by the police. -- Ian Tomlinson. Shorey there has to be a

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small parades -- place somewhere between harming an innocent man and

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causing his death and being spectators to what was acts of

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looting and criminality. We keep talking about young people. In

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Manchester, the majority of the people arrested from the looting

:24:18.:24:23.

were way into their twenties, 30s and 40s. There were hardened

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criminal gangs involved. There are different causes to each of these

:24:28.:24:32.

riots. The police were like spectators, they said they did not

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have enough minders, but they sat back and let it go on. -- numbers.

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I have been out in Manchester city centre and seen people getting

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beaten up, reported it to a policeman and they're not

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interested. Ian McDonald is a former assistant Chief Constable at

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Merseyside police. You dealt with the Toxteth riots. How much force

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is it possible to use in these situations? Of the police not

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confident about using the necessary force? The police have cleared

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guidelines on the levels of force they can use and it has to be

:25:14.:25:21.

proportionate. Once a riot is under way, nobody can police them

:25:21.:25:24.

perfectly. The police need the powers to stop these people from

:25:24.:25:34.

assembling. When you hear talk of rubber bullets, water cannon and

:25:34.:25:38.

possibly bringing in the army, do you think yes, that is necessary,

:25:38.:25:45.

or that is completely over the top? Yes and no. As far as rubber

:25:45.:25:48.

bullets and water cannon are concerned, our colleagues in

:25:48.:25:52.

Northern Ireland will advise us on that. As far as the army coming in,

:25:52.:25:56.

I have yet to see a situation in the last century where the army

:25:56.:26:00.

going into a situation of civil unrest has brought it to an end.

:26:00.:26:04.

Sir Michael Winner is chairman of the Police Memorial Trust. His

:26:04.:26:09.

there a danger, Michael Winner, that using more aggression can

:26:09.:26:13.

increase aggression? You can't increase it much more than what we

:26:13.:26:19.

have seen in the recent riots. Short of them stringing people up

:26:19.:26:25.

from lamp-posts, I don't see how it could increase. What the public,

:26:25.:26:29.

and I include myself, felt particularly in the first couple of

:26:29.:26:33.

days is that there didn't appear to be, and I am not blaming the police

:26:33.:26:41.

on this, enough to tempt to stop the rioting. -- attempt. You have

:26:41.:26:46.

to bring in whatever is necessary, the army, rubber bullets, water

:26:46.:26:51.

cannon, gas, I don't care what it is. Citizens should not be

:26:51.:26:56.

subjected to this. We always have this softly-softly approach, this

:26:56.:27:00.

is where it has got us. We have not really had a softly-softly approach

:27:00.:27:05.

in the past. In 1981 and what happened in Moss Side, the police

:27:05.:27:10.

went in particularly hard and lost a lot of support from that

:27:10.:27:16.

community. Some of the punishments handed out were unfair. I don't

:27:16.:27:20.

think there were enough police numbers. All of this idea of

:27:20.:27:24.

plastic bullets and water cannon, face the facts, you can't afford to

:27:24.:27:28.

put the police service... -- Cut the police service for top of

:27:28.:27:37.

course there should be more police. Where there -- where they have been

:27:37.:27:44.

restrained by his mentally by the knowledge that if they do anything

:27:44.:27:47.

that the politically correct brigade will be charging them with

:27:47.:27:52.

the breaching of Human Rights... is not a politically incorrect

:27:52.:27:57.

Brigade in the case of Ian Tomlinson. He was innocent. The

:27:57.:28:00.

police can get out of hand, but there has to be a small space

:28:00.:28:04.

somewhere between that and acting as a spectator. The police in

:28:05.:28:08.

Manchester said they were outnumbered by the rioters and that

:28:08.:28:12.

is why they did not going. They were clearly outnumbered initially.

:28:12.:28:18.

What I saw in Hackney, there were many more people rioting van there

:28:18.:28:24.

were police. Whether they were not expecting vast numbers together so

:28:24.:28:29.

quickly on the street, we are in New Times. It is unfair in that

:28:29.:28:35.

context to expect of the police officers to go into that Frank Cass

:28:35.:28:39.

and not only have themselves buttoned-up other people. There

:28:39.:28:43.

were probably even more spectators in Hackney than there were police.

:28:44.:28:48.

The question has to be asked, and we are asking police to put their

:28:48.:28:52.

lives on the line, and I am wondering why the community were

:28:52.:29:02.
:29:02.:29:05.

watching what was going on. Becoming that thin blue line.

:29:05.:29:10.

were big criminal elements involved in these riots and the locals are

:29:10.:29:13.

scared of there, too. For years, as long as it has been confined to

:29:13.:29:18.

those areas, the police have turned a blind eye. I have never talked

:29:19.:29:24.

about David Cameron talking about how disgraceful it is. They are our

:29:24.:29:28.

children and people in the community. Later today, David

:29:28.:29:32.

Cameron, who has been in office a long time, is talking about zero

:29:32.:29:36.

tolerance and he is right. What we have had until now his total

:29:36.:29:41.

tolerance. We have tolerated every nonsense. The citizen has been

:29:41.:29:45.

brushed aside and I don't accept we shouldn't be tougher and rougher.

:29:45.:29:49.

No one is saying we should be tougher, but it has been allowed to

:29:49.:29:55.

go one. When it starts affecting London, when it is the Olympics,

:29:55.:30:00.

something must be done. We have had gangs with guns on the streets for

:30:00.:30:05.

years. Of course something should have been done then. Why wasn't it?

:30:05.:30:09.

Tolerance beyond belief. There clearly is a swinging back and

:30:09.:30:14.

forth from the police. We saw it at the G20 riots and the response to

:30:14.:30:19.

the policing there when the police failed to stop people storming

:30:19.:30:22.

public buildings in London, the anti- tuition fees protests last

:30:22.:30:27.

year. One quick thing because this has become a big political tool.

:30:27.:30:36.

This issue about the cuts in police numbers. Nobody wants to see fewer

:30:36.:30:41.

police on the streets. Labour have been behaving quite disgracefully

:30:41.:30:44.

in trying to make this political point this week. What the coalition

:30:44.:30:48.

cuts are trying to do is not to cut the numbers of police on the street,

:30:48.:30:52.

but to cut the number of people sitting at desks and writing

:30:52.:30:57.

reports. You can't get the convictions without the paperwork.

:30:57.:31:00.

You could have as many or more police on the street if you free

:31:00.:31:04.

them up from the paperwork. They can't get the convictions were that

:31:04.:31:14.
:31:14.:31:16.

The courts are far too lenient. And Mrs Thatcher would have dealt with

:31:16.:31:24.

this in seconds. In places like inner cities, we also want a police

:31:24.:31:28.

force that is going to be respectful of the people that it is

:31:28.:31:33.

policing. Time and time again, I have mothers, parents, fathers who

:31:33.:31:38.

tell me that they are genuinely... And when I hear the young people

:31:38.:31:42.

say it, I sometimes hear it with a pinch of salt, but when I hear

:31:42.:31:46.

mothers who are in distress because the police even disrespect the

:31:46.:31:50.

parents themselves, standing there with their children, if the police

:31:50.:31:54.

disrespect the parents, then the parents almost lose their moral

:31:54.:32:03.

right to engage with their children. Michael, you do not live in one of

:32:04.:32:10.

those areas and have not ever done. There is a myth about the police

:32:10.:32:14.

being soft in these areas. If you do not live in those areas either?

:32:14.:32:18.

I grew up in one! I have a 19-year- old nephew who was pulled to the

:32:18.:32:23.

floor in a street in Preston by the police with a gun to his head. He

:32:23.:32:27.

has never committed any crime other than the fact that he is black.

:32:27.:32:31.

That kind of thing is going on out of your sight and out of my sight,

:32:31.:32:35.

but it happens more than you think. It is not soft policing in the way

:32:35.:32:42.

you think. Let's speak to a 19- year-old from Lewisham in London.

:32:42.:32:45.

Stephen, what is your experience of relations with police where you

:32:45.:32:53.

live? Hi, everyone. Growing up around this area, I have had my

:32:53.:32:56.

fair share of ups and downs with police officers. I am not try to

:32:57.:33:02.

say all of them are all bad, but my experience is, most of it has been

:33:02.:33:08.

bad from the police officers. I get stopped and searched so often. It

:33:08.:33:14.

gets to me. Why I am I always getting stopped and searched? Why

:33:14.:33:20.

is it always me? Let me give you an example of what happened one time

:33:20.:33:24.

when I was working. I went to the toilet next to the centre where I

:33:25.:33:29.

was working, and the police officer came out of his car and started

:33:29.:33:34.

questioning me. I answered all his questions. Another guy that works

:33:34.:33:37.

with me came over and said don't worry, he worked with me. And the

:33:37.:33:41.

police officer turned around and went to the guy. It is all right, I

:33:41.:33:45.

don't care about you, you can go away, I want to talk to him. And I

:33:45.:33:49.

was like, what do you mean? He just said I have worked for him and I

:33:49.:33:53.

have not done anything wrong. And he was still questioning me and

:33:53.:34:00.

saying, I am going to need you. That is goading. It was all stupid

:34:00.:34:06.

things that get me upset. My nephew has had it four or five times, and

:34:06.:34:11.

he did not even get an apology. He was shaking for days. If you knew

:34:11.:34:15.

that the police could used more force, and we have heard the phrase

:34:16.:34:20.

"a rougher and tougher", how would that affect relations? It would not

:34:20.:34:25.

help the relationship at all. You need the police officers to be able

:34:25.:34:32.

to engage with the community, you know what I mean? If you can't do

:34:32.:34:35.

that, you can't break that stereotype of all police being bad.

:34:35.:34:39.

Douglas, if we want these young people to show compassion and love

:34:39.:34:44.

and respect and be peaceful, as Stephen is saying, shouldn't we

:34:44.:34:49.

treat them that way? There are two sides to this. Firstly, of course

:34:49.:34:56.

the police should not be goading or doing anything like that. But those

:34:56.:35:01.

mistakes, when they are made, can on occasion be remedied. The other

:35:01.:35:06.

side of this equation is this. We cannot let people off when they do

:35:06.:35:11.

do criminal acts from being subjected to a rigorous examination

:35:11.:35:15.

afterwards. Let me give an example. A lot of people get stopped and

:35:15.:35:20.

searched. The gentleman here is an example. I have been stopped and

:35:20.:35:29.

searched. It would never occur to me. Have you really been stopped

:35:29.:35:34.

and searched? At yes! Up and how have they gone about doing it? Is

:35:34.:35:40.

it useful to go into that? A yes. They stop you, they ask you what

:35:40.:35:44.

you are carrying and all that sort of thing. I do not like that, but

:35:44.:35:51.

my feeling is that if you are doing a job, you do it decently. I am

:35:51.:35:55.

inconvenienced, but if that is what is needed to keep the community

:35:55.:36:00.

safe, fine. It would never occur to me to store up resentment from that

:36:00.:36:04.

and two and up using it as an excuse to steal trainers. Some

:36:05.:36:11.

people have been doing that. If in a month, you are stopped half a

:36:12.:36:17.

dozen times or even 20 times, and young people in the streets tell us

:36:17.:36:21.

that they are constantly stopped. I am not against stop-and-search. I

:36:21.:36:24.

want guns to be taken off our streets and nice to be removed,

:36:24.:36:29.

because it means our young people will be alive. But it must be done

:36:29.:36:33.

properly. Richard Wright about police brutality. But you cannot

:36:33.:36:37.

deny that as people watched those riots, they wondered where police

:36:37.:36:42.

were not showing either more force or more confidence in using that

:36:42.:36:48.

force. Why do you think that is? Well, I think there was a complete

:36:48.:36:53.

breakdown in policing. That tends to happen when riots break out.

:36:53.:36:59.

Those are the conditions for riots breaking out. But let's not lose

:36:59.:37:03.

sight of what happened. The spark that triggered this was an example

:37:03.:37:07.

of bad policing in which a young man had his life taken away.

:37:07.:37:11.

Subsequently, there was a protest that was peaceful until a 16-year-

:37:11.:37:17.

old girl was beaten up by riot officers. I live in Enfield. That

:37:17.:37:22.

was one of the areas that was hit. In the afternoon in the build-up to

:37:22.:37:30.

the riots taking place, the police were around the area, telling shops

:37:30.:37:34.

to close down. There were dozens of riot police. There were apparently

:37:34.:37:40.

hundreds of arrests. So it is not the lack of preparation that caused

:37:40.:37:48.

the riots to take place. Underlying this is the real grievances. It is

:37:48.:37:52.

easy to reduce this to poverty or spending cuts, and these are

:37:52.:37:56.

important. But a much more cutting- edge issue is injustice. People

:37:56.:38:03.

talk about soft policing, but between 1998 and 2010, 333 people

:38:03.:38:08.

died in police custody. Not one officer was convicted of any of

:38:08.:38:15.

those deaths. That is why communities do not have confidence

:38:15.:38:24.

in the IPCC. Unfortunately, we are slightly losing your microphone. So

:38:24.:38:27.

we are going to switch to Stuart Davidson, who used to be a police

:38:27.:38:33.

officer in this country and left to work in Canada. Do you think there

:38:33.:38:37.

is a difference over there that English police could learn from

:38:37.:38:47.
:38:47.:38:47.

the? I was not armed in the UK, and now I have a Taser, a pistol and an

:38:47.:38:50.

assault rifle. And I have the training to use them, and it makes

:38:51.:38:56.

a big difference when police in the streets. Why? Because bad people

:38:56.:39:00.

are scared of you. Do you think that is the problem in England,

:39:00.:39:07.

that there is not enough feel of the police? Well, I do not know. I

:39:07.:39:13.

was fighting with people every other week almost in England. Now,

:39:14.:39:19.

nobody fights with the police. Everyone does what you say. And

:39:19.:39:22.

people are more respectful of the police than in England. I do not

:39:22.:39:27.

know if that is because we carry guns or not. But generally, people

:39:27.:39:33.

wave at me with all their fingers and do as they are asked. It is a

:39:33.:39:39.

better society as well, more egalitarian. Gerry from Londonderry

:39:39.:39:44.

says that after a couple of hours of Wood in Londonderry, the plastic

:39:44.:39:51.

bullets come up. They have different rules. Another viewer

:39:51.:39:55.

says we drafted in more police from outside London, and then the riots

:39:55.:40:01.

stopped. David from Merseyside has e-mailed to say he was an officer

:40:01.:40:05.

present during the riots in Salford and was one of 12 officers and a

:40:05.:40:10.

attack by up to 300 rioters. He had bricks and bottles thrown at him

:40:10.:40:15.

and seven, including himself, were injured. He says, we stayed until

:40:15.:40:25.
:40:25.:40:25.

the fire was put out. Manchester police were up against a

:40:25.:40:28.

hardcore criminal element in Salford. These are very complex

:40:28.:40:34.

issues. There is no one Pot Noodle solution that you add instant water,

:40:34.:40:39.

and this will work. It is a lot of different things. But will we get a

:40:39.:40:44.

report like in 1981? I doubt it. The question is, why is it

:40:44.:40:47.

happening in this country? And we will discuss that in a moment.

:40:48.:40:53.

Stay to come: our kids are going on the rampage to steal trainers and

:40:53.:40:58.

flat-screen TVs. In Chile, students are rioting for a better education.

:40:58.:41:03.

Should we be surprised? Is our obsession with material wealth to

:41:03.:41:13.
:41:13.:41:37.

Above the din of the riots and the clamour of voices calling for

:41:37.:41:40.

retribution, there were three voice of that many people thought stood

:41:40.:41:45.

out this week. Perhaps the most effective in calming the tension

:41:45.:41:55.
:41:55.:42:25.

was the father of one of the Up rose, you talked about why the

:42:25.:42:30.

community did not step up and speak out. That was what Pauline did.

:42:30.:42:34.

that was what she was saying. And there was something really in what

:42:34.:42:41.

she was saying. But underlying all of that, we live in a society where

:42:41.:42:47.

it is all celebrity. It is "get it today". Footballers, people doing

:42:47.:42:54.

their own thing, behaving badly. And society says it is OK. We live

:42:54.:42:58.

in a society where we tell our children when they are 14 years old

:42:58.:43:02.

that they can get condoms, birth control, and the parents do not

:43:02.:43:07.

need to be involved. Meanwhile, we have a parent here, Tariq Jay Hunt,

:43:07.:43:12.

who suffered the most grievous loss, and yet spoke out so eloquently and

:43:12.:43:19.

powerfully. He is the outstanding hero of this week. Such an

:43:19.:43:24.

extraordinarily moving... I don't know how he spoke so soon after the

:43:24.:43:28.

murder of his son. You could imagine that in that situation, the

:43:28.:43:34.

things someone might have said. Absolutely. Here you see a man with

:43:34.:43:39.

a moral courage and faith. Even at this terrible period in his life.

:43:39.:43:44.

He could have called for retribution. He could have ignited

:43:44.:43:49.

a most terrible war in his city, and he didn't. He said one needed

:43:49.:43:59.
:43:59.:43:59.

saying. These are people losing their lives. What he did not say

:43:59.:44:03.

was, there would be no need for me to have been detected the shops,

:44:03.:44:08.

had there been enough police on the street. Meanwhile, the Malaysian

:44:08.:44:11.

student who people also a watch on YouTube, could easily have also

:44:11.:44:16.

said, what is going on here? I am leaving. But again, he said, I am

:44:16.:44:21.

staying. This is still a great place. And a Facebook page has been

:44:21.:44:27.

set up and people raised money for him. The irony is that students are

:44:27.:44:35.

getting mugged all the time. They are quite naive. But what happens

:44:35.:44:39.

to them gets ignored. More fuss is being made about it because we have

:44:39.:44:45.

had the riots this week. It is not so much that more fuss is being

:44:45.:44:50.

made. We all know the story of the Good Samaritan. Here we have a guy

:44:50.:44:55.

who was beaten up, blood all over. And people come, and instead of

:44:55.:45:03.

assisting him, they start stealing from him. That is what the fuss is.

:45:03.:45:09.

They are worried about London's PR. We were seeing a wicked thing done

:45:09.:45:19.

The fact that this happened and people showed compassion... They

:45:19.:45:24.

should publicise all those muggings. Douglas, though his voice has

:45:24.:45:29.

seemed to ring out loudly, do you think for many people what those

:45:29.:45:32.

three people said speaks much louder than what they are hearing

:45:32.:45:40.

from politicians? It is possible. We need all of these voices in the

:45:40.:45:44.

discussion, we need politicians to say some of it, sometimes you need

:45:44.:45:49.

politicians to speak out more bravely. But nobody will remember

:45:49.:45:53.

what the politicians said this week, they will remember those people.

:45:53.:45:59.

You have been voting this morning. We asked, should national service

:45:59.:46:05.

be compulsory for young people? The poll is closing now so pleased

:46:05.:46:09.

don't text any more. You could still be charged. We will bring you

:46:09.:46:15.

the result at the end of the programme.

:46:15.:46:20.

Let's dig further into the possible causes. The French riots about

:46:20.:46:26.

pensions, the Greeks riot about cuts, but the English lute Foot

:46:26.:46:34.

Locker for trainers. What does this say? Could it be a few delinquents

:46:34.:46:38.

or is our consumer greed having consequences?

:46:38.:46:43.

Rioting is nothing new, people have risen up over race, policing, the

:46:43.:46:47.

poll tax and globalisation. It is not unusual for the police for

:46:47.:46:51.

public property to be targeted. This time, some of the motivation

:46:51.:46:56.

appeared to be pure greed. Why are you going to miss an opportunity to

:46:56.:47:00.

get free stuff that is worth loads of money? On these people just

:47:00.:47:05.

violent criminal scum disregarding human life in the pursuit of mobile

:47:05.:47:08.

phones and trainers or were they just copying standards they had

:47:08.:47:11.

seen elsewhere? The nation's favourite pastime until recently

:47:11.:47:18.

was shopping and getting into debt to do it. And many of our role

:47:18.:47:22.

models of celebrities with lavish lifestyles and it goes right to the

:47:22.:47:27.

top. Recently, many bankers, politicians, press and police have

:47:27.:47:30.

seemed much more interested in money than morals and suffered very

:47:31.:47:36.

little for it. There can be no excuse for the destruction of lives

:47:36.:47:41.

and property we saw this week. But are they just a dark mirror on the

:47:41.:47:47.

actual values of our consumer society? Can the blame for the

:47:47.:47:52.

riots fall on our own greed? You can join in by webcam or make

:47:53.:48:00.

your point online or by phone. You already mentioned role models, what

:48:00.:48:05.

do you think? Materialistic role- models, of a partly to blame?

:48:05.:48:10.

of that is part leap in the equation. In our society we have a

:48:10.:48:17.

poverty of spirit. A moral vacuum. Anything goes. What we have seen in

:48:17.:48:23.

the rioting is a result of that. that because parents are not

:48:24.:48:29.

inculcating it or is it because society as a whole is telling young

:48:29.:48:34.

people they need to have the latest but not enabling them to have it?

:48:34.:48:38.

The message from society is you can have whatever you want. You have a

:48:38.:48:43.

right to have whatever you want and do whatever you want. Now that we

:48:43.:48:47.

have the right, society is saying call your children back. Which

:48:47.:48:52.

children? The same children you have taken away from us and taken

:48:52.:48:57.

away away responsibility as parents? There is a problem.

:48:57.:49:02.

Successive governments have a raised parental responsibility and

:49:02.:49:05.

given children rights. Now the children have risen up and that is

:49:05.:49:13.

what we see. Who were on them enters? Celebrities, footballers,

:49:13.:49:18.

people who sometimes don't have good moral values. The local

:49:18.:49:23.

gangster. In some areas. Douglas, of there mentors, perhaps some

:49:23.:49:28.

might say the bankers, who they might think were responsible for

:49:28.:49:32.

this financial meltdown but didn't seem to be punished. All the MPs

:49:32.:49:38.

who fiddled their expenses? We have to get away from this thing of

:49:38.:49:43.

taking blame from anyone. The people who did the looting and

:49:43.:49:46.

committed the acts of criminal or - - criminality, they are responsible

:49:46.:49:53.

for their actions for top of there underlying causes? Sure. We do live

:49:53.:49:59.

in the most extraordinarily debased society. All of the people shoved

:49:59.:50:05.

on to young people as role models are vacuous, empty, mainly lacking

:50:05.:50:09.

in any kind of achievement of the kind generation ago would have been

:50:09.:50:15.

thought of as an achievement. Young people notice this. You can see it

:50:15.:50:19.

in the behaviour of children on the streets. You can see it in what

:50:19.:50:24.

they aspire to. Will you tally up the kind of corruption... There is

:50:24.:50:29.

a rich seam of immorality throughout society. You have MPs

:50:29.:50:35.

travelling expenses, bankers who impoverished all of us paying

:50:35.:50:41.

themselves massive bonuses. You have got politicians intertwining

:50:41.:50:49.

with corrupt press proprietors and what seems to be corrupt policemen.

:50:49.:50:53.

They are unified by the same thing. They should all be punished,

:50:53.:50:59.

shouldn't they? Absolutely. They don't have a willingness to take

:50:59.:51:03.

responsibility. This is what is interesting. MPs did not take

:51:03.:51:07.

responsibility for their actions. You say you don't believe in

:51:07.:51:11.

different solutions for different cultures and all that. Let's get it

:51:11.:51:17.

down to David Cameron, that kid, he was looting and he stole a bottle

:51:17.:51:21.

of water, he has been sent down for six months. But David Cameron, when

:51:21.:51:29.

it comes to Andy Coulson, I believe in giving everybody a second chance.

:51:29.:51:33.

Let's fast-track them. You call yourself an anarchist, was this

:51:33.:51:40.

some kind of moral anarchy? I don't think the riots and the looting had

:51:40.:51:45.

anything to do with anarchy. As an anarchist, you can look at why this

:51:45.:51:51.

happened, but instead of everyone having what Terry Christian calls a

:51:51.:51:55.

Pot noodle solution, look at the bigger picture, which is years and

:51:55.:52:01.

years of this moral vacuum. Years of bankers running away with money,

:52:01.:52:07.

years of big companies getting away with �6 billion tax dodging. David

:52:07.:52:11.

Cameron is not doing anything about that. Somebody steals something

:52:11.:52:16.

from a shop and they get sent down, it is ridiculous. Craig is from the

:52:16.:52:21.

Institute of ideas. What do you think? Are people just dressing

:52:21.:52:26.

this up with some sort of political theory when it is criminality or is

:52:26.:52:33.

something deeper going wrong in society? Let's switch on your

:52:34.:52:40.

microphone and start you up all over again! Go ahead. Calling it

:52:40.:52:45.

criminality is stating the obvious. You are right to say there is

:52:45.:52:50.

definitely something wrong with the people who carried out these facts.

:52:50.:52:55.

They don't have any regard for people around them. They don't have

:52:55.:52:59.

any sense of community that up is he talking about bankers or rioters

:52:59.:53:06.

or both? Rioters, bankers, politicians and the kind of fated

:53:06.:53:10.

businessmen like Philip Green who managed to dodge paying �1 billion

:53:10.:53:20.

in tax. Terry! Tax-avoidance, not against the law. Craig? There is

:53:20.:53:25.

nothing... These people committed crimes, but to justify it by saying

:53:25.:53:30.

bankers do it as well. I am not justifying it. Let Craig have his

:53:30.:53:35.

say. He is putting words in my mouth. It is not an excuse to say

:53:35.:53:40.

just because somebody else is doing it. Terry, stop talking over Craig.

:53:40.:53:49.

As long as he doesn't put words in my mouth. You just said people

:53:49.:53:53.

refute these bankers. They are all dreadful and criminals, that is

:53:53.:53:58.

what I think. Terry, I will have to ask you to let Craig have his say.

:53:58.:54:02.

As long as he doesn't mention what I have said. Craig, please

:54:02.:54:12.
:54:12.:54:13.

These people stole from the people around them, they had no sense of

:54:13.:54:18.

community, no sense of the people around them. They did not care. The

:54:18.:54:22.

reason for that is because they have been robbed of a sense of

:54:22.:54:25.

community by a government who continually interfered in their

:54:25.:54:30.

lives. It gives them no reason to trust other people, it gives them

:54:30.:54:36.

no reason to rely on people around them. It is no surprise that they

:54:36.:54:40.

might steal from those very people they live alongside, burn down

:54:40.:54:48.

their businesses and burn down people who are actually trying to

:54:48.:54:54.

get ahead. You talked about consumerism, the people who had

:54:54.:54:59.

these businesses that were burned down, they want nice shoes and nice

:54:59.:55:05.

TV's as well. Consumerism doesn't explain it at all. As important as

:55:05.:55:08.

focusing on the things that have been attacked, it is interesting,

:55:08.:55:13.

the things that haven't been attacked. This does tell us a lot

:55:13.:55:17.

about the objectives. Public buildings were not attacked. This

:55:17.:55:23.

was not a pre- revolutionary France situation. Things selling

:55:23.:55:28.

Borderline goods were not attacked. The first priority was luxury goods.

:55:28.:55:35.

It shows us that when criminals, some people jump in and take an

:55:35.:55:40.

opportunity and most of them took what they wanted. Katie was a

:55:40.:55:45.

witness in Oldham. You were involved in the clean-up. What do

:55:45.:55:52.

they take? I was involved in the clean-up, yes. A hi-fi store got

:55:52.:56:01.

trashed. There was a jeweller's that was absolutely ransacked.

:56:01.:56:04.

These are not things people need, these are things people want and

:56:04.:56:08.

there is a massive difference. things you could sell, they stole

:56:09.:56:13.

keyboards from a music shop. All of the things society says you have to

:56:13.:56:16.

have this if you want to be somebody. If you take a community

:56:16.:56:22.

like ours, we have based schools building fund that we asked

:56:22.:56:29.

families to contribute to. The children turn up at school wearing

:56:29.:56:32.

�100 trainers. But their parents can't afford to contribute to this

:56:32.:56:42.

fund. Patsy is from mothers against violence. What are your thoughts?

:56:42.:56:48.

think it is about everything. Everything I am hearing. For me,

:56:48.:56:54.

the most important thing is values. If you instil values in children,

:56:54.:57:01.

as they get older, they will try things out. I am seeing a bit of

:57:01.:57:07.

everything. I am hearing the young people's voice in all of this. They

:57:07.:57:16.

are saying... It is about things. They are valuing things. Things are

:57:16.:57:25.

more important than people. Thank you so much. We have to end it

:57:25.:57:30.

there. We asked, should national service be compulsory for all young

:57:30.:57:40.
:57:40.:57:43.

74% said yes. National Service? Possible solution? No, families. We

:57:43.:57:48.

have to go back to the community. We have to go back to families and

:57:48.:57:52.

parents and fathers. We need to build the foundation of our

:57:52.:57:58.

community life. I will say this. Face. Douglas? What we have seen in

:57:58.:58:04.

the last week, and nation wondering what it is. When the Pope came here

:58:04.:58:08.

last year, he said something interesting, you have to ask

:58:09.:58:12.

yourself what it is you want to be. That question has come up this week

:58:13.:58:17.

and we are very unhappy with the answer. Let's leave it.

:58:17.:58:24.

Bullington club, national service. Thank you to my guests are today.

:58:24.:58:28.

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