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Are this week's of rioters really so marginalised and disconnected? | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
They join gangs, social media, and they joined together to looked JD | :00:15. | :00:25. | |
:00:25. | :00:39. | ||
Sports. Should we make them joined Good morning. Welcome to a Sunday | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
Morning Live special. As a calm of sorts descends on a week of | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
national disgrace, is their real value in asking if national service | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
is an answer? When 16,000 police showed up on the | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
streets of London, the rioters stayed out of it. Should we ask our | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
police force to show more force? And they did not once at | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
Waterstone's, they went for trainers, mobiles, flat screen | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
tellies. Should we. A collective finger at consumer greed? | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
My guests this week all have shades of serious disorder in their past. | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
Terry Christian got his first TV break warning that politician riots | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
were on the way in 1981. He has since -- since worked with youth | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
groups on TV and on the streets was a Sheldon Thomas was once a gang | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
leader. These days, he helps kids in London | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
escape gangs. And conservative author Douglas | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
Murray was once banned from speaking at the LSE for fear that | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
he would provoke a riot. We would like to know what you | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
think about the riots. Were you a victim or a participant? Call now | :01:42. | :01:51. | |
:01:52. | :02:01. | ||
The events this week showed that parents, schools and even the | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
courts are struggling to control some of our kids. Is it time to let | :02:04. | :02:12. | |
the army have a go and bring back National Service? Some blamed this | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
week's riots on the breakdown of the family. They are feral rats. | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
What are those parents doing? ..Where parents have failed to | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
teach kids about values and boundaries, the gangs have | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
sometimes stepped in. They act as a surrogate family, setting | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
boundaries and rules, telling members who they should respect, | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
what they should wear and where they can go, giving them a sense of | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
belonging. But if we do not want the gangs to bring up our kids, | :02:43. | :02:50. | |
perhaps the army could. Could the army build in how young a sense of | :02:50. | :02:58. | |
pride, self-respect, identity and community? Would national service, | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
a compulsory period in the military forces, provide an alternative to | :03:01. | :03:09. | |
the gangs? We could follow the example of countries like Israel or | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
Greece, who have national service. But it has not prevented the youth | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
of Greece from rioting. And there would be huge costs involved in | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
calling up, feeding, housing and training each generation. The riots | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
have revealed a country split apart. Would a shared experience of | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
service to the nation he will that rift? | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
Terry, is it tempting to think it might be a solution? National | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
Service? I am not sure how it squares with the fact that there | :03:42. | :03:50. | |
are record numbers of ex-servicemen in prison at the moment, but why | :03:50. | :04:00. | |
:04:00. | :04:07. | ||
let the facts get in a way of a We will bring you the result of the | :04:07. | :04:14. | |
vote at the end of the programme. There are already record numbers of | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
ex-servicemen in prison at the moment. So if you make kids do | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
national service for a year or two years, and then you take them out | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
of the army and put them back on to an estate with high unemployment, | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
it will not necessarily give them a job. And then perhaps you will have | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
a better trained kind of gangster on the street. Does that undermine | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
the argument for, Douglas? The for the last election, David Cameron | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
talked about a form of national service which would not be entirely | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
to do with military training. I would be in favour of something | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
which the six months or a year encouraged young people to | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
understand that society they live in will only get better if they | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
take a part in it. If we can instil that somehow by an experience which | :04:59. | :05:06. | |
would not have to be military, it could be all sorts of volunteering | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
things, working in the charitable sector, working with other youth | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
groups. If you could set something up that instilled from an early age | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
the idea that society is there as, and it is in their care and they | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
have to take part in it. Like getting them a real job that pays | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
properly. But there aren't any. Sheldon, apologies for the sound | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
issue we just had. Sheldon, you used to be a member of gangs. You | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
are now helping kids come out of gangs. What do these young people | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
get from gangs, and could that be replicated in a positive way by | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
sending them for some sort of service? I do not agree with | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
national service. If anybody needs national service, it is the | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
politicians, because they are out of control. Some of the things they | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
are saying, they are clearly clueless and not understanding what | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
is happening with young people and the underclass that they are | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
causing. To answer your question, families is where you get a sense | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
of identity. Families is way you get a sense of belonging. I do not | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
see how national service can replace family structure. But could | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
it replace gang structure? I do not think so. The only thing that can | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
replace gang culture his family structure. We need to focus on that. | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
All these knee-jerk reactions are ludicrous. We need to focus on the | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
real problems, which are broken families. We need to focus on that. | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
If we start doing these knee-jerk reactions about bringing back | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
National Service or introducing it, these politicians are proving that | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
they are not worthy to be in positions of power. It is your | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
black cab driver's solution to the world, bring back National Service. | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
I always distrust anybody that comes up with what I call these Pot | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
Noodle, instant solutions. Just add hot water and stir a bit. You hear | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
a lot of this. With the riots this week, you are talking about | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
National Service now. I read all these commentators in the Guardian | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
and the Times and the Telegraph, and I feel depressed. It is like | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
they have their world view, they shoehorn events in to fit their | :07:30. | :07:37. | |
world-view. Society is becoming too liberal, that is why they are all | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
rioting(!) Then why can't the streets of Amsterdam full of Dutch | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
writers? Douglas? I am not answering for the new rich people | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
Terry is criticising, but no one is saying that national service would | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
replace family. The problem is that we have across our society a whole | :07:56. | :08:04. | |
set of problems:. Which are underpinned by families. One of the | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
fundamental things is absolutely the breakdown of the family. But | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
you cannot wish that to happen, you have to assist it and you have to | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
assist people to do part of a community and a nation. Major | :08:17. | :08:24. | |
General Tim Cross worked on reconstruction in Iraq. What would | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
be the value for these young people who may have come from broken homes, | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
to then be taken out of those homes and given compulsory national | :08:32. | :08:42. | |
:08:42. | :08:45. | ||
service? Tim, I knew there? I am here. Good morning. Sorry, we seem | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
to have gremlins on the line. But we can hear you now. To begin with, | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
I suspect the reality is that the practical implications and the lack | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
of political will mean that bringing back National Service as | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
it was will not happen. But why do so many people seem to think we | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
need to bring it back? That is the real question. The military, like | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
any other organisation, is made up of flawed human beings. We do not | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
get it all right. There are a couple of issues. Firstly, we have | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
a lot of positive role models in the military. And we have leaders | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
of a genuine character and courage, not just physical courage, but | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
moral courage. So unlike many organisations, the military are not | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
afraid to talk about and then put into practice things like selfless | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
commitment, loyalty, integrity, sense of duty, trust and respect. | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
The military is a place where we have rights, but we also have | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
responsibilities, and we teach it to people so that when they go out | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
on patrol in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, knowing that there is | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
a chance they will be injured or killed, it is because they sense in | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
the military a strong sense of identity and purpose, and they feel | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
part of what we call the regimental family. Sheldon? Those are the | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
things that organisations on the frontline teacher. We have | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
organisations in places like Hackney and Newham that teach | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
exactly what he is talking about, but are completely underfunded. How | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
can you switch to an argument from legs do National Service as some | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
sort of knee-jerk reaction, and not focus on this Big Society thing | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
that David Cameron was painting? The minute you get a chance to | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
reinvest in the frontline organisations that teach identity, | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
that each had to deal with empowerment, that each have to | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
bring a young person from that feeling of helplessness into one of | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
hope, and now you want to say, we are not going to invest in those | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
organisations, we should just bring back National Service? Implication | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
is that it is all young people in those areas. I grew up on a council | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
estate. OK, it was a different era, with less pressure and there were | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
some options to get out of it. There was social mobility. But the | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
majority them were appalled innocent bystanders to these riots. | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
Tim, Terry raised a point earlier, which was that firstly, people can | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
have problems even while they are in the army. And secondly, that | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
when people come out of military service, there are well-documented | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
accounts of people struggling to readjust. Record numbers of ex- | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
servicemen are in prison. So you may have a situation where you have | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
these young people, you train them up in the army, and then let them | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
loose on the streets. Would that be better? I do not know if they're | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
actually record numbers. This is from the Guardian in 2008. Allow me | :11:49. | :11:58. | |
to make my point. You asked me where it came from. Let me reply to | :11:58. | :12:08. | |
:12:08. | :12:14. | ||
the question. I started by Save the military organisation is made up of | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
flawed human beings and it would not be right to suggest that we do | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
not have problems in the military. But it is in the context of the | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
regimental system. We have our problems, but the regimental family | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
are there to deal with it and to try to bring it together. When | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
people leave, undoubtedly we have people in trouble. We will have a | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
lot of young people coming out of the military over the next few | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
years who will end up with post- traumatic stress syndrome and those | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
sorts of issues. They will end up in trouble. But that does not | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
detract from the fact that the military structure and what it does | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
is a place that people look and then say yes, we could do with more | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
of this. I agree with your panel and I have no problem in suggesting | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
that we should invest in this sort of thing in different areas of our | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
system, the education system, the clubs and the other places your | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
panel members have been talking about. Lynsey Germanies from the | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
stop the war coalition. Those values that Major General Tim Cross | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
mentions - loyalty, commitment, a sense of identity and positive male | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
role models, those are hard to argue with, aren't they? Well, they | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
do come from all sorts of different institutions in society. The role | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
of the army, particularly in recent years, has been a violent roll, a | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
role to do with killing. As Terry has pointed out, you have to go to | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
some lengths to train people to be desensitised enough to do this kind | :13:47. | :13:54. | |
of thing. And many of them face great problems, both within the | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
army and when they leave the Army. Not just in terms of domestic | :14:00. | :14:07. | |
violence and housing problems and hopelessness and alcoholism. It is | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
wrong to suggest that... SOUND PROBLEMS. | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
A Lynsey, I would interrupt you because we are having sound | :14:19. | :14:25. | |
problems with the line. Let me stress again that the ideas of | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
national service that have been suggested by politicians at the | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
moment are not a one-size-fits-all military solution. But it might be | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
worth thinking of a more nuanced approach to the system, whereby | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
there are types of national service which have nothing to do with the | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
military. But they may well suit and help train up young people and | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
not only helped them to have a sense of belonging, but also help | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
them into the career they would go into. It is not just to bring | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
people into marching. We are talking about the army. Let me | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
bring some truth here. This is what the young people I work with C. I | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
worked with gang members. They see billions of pounds being spent on | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and Libya. And then they see the same | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
prime minister coming back here and telling everybody there are no jobs, | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
there will be massive redundancies, no apprenticeships. So you are | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
saying, let's give more investment to the army to go and deal with a | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
problem that should be invested locally to organisations. I am not | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
going to just listened to us talk about the army as if to say that | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
that is some sort of answer, when what is the answer is investment | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
into local communities, organisations that are struggling | :15:42. | :15:52. | |
because �5 billion are being spent People on the streets of London | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
don't care about Iraq and Afghanistan. They care about their | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
personal life. They care about the fact they haven't got a job. | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
can't be either. No! It might not be allowing genocide in Libya or | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
you getting more food. For you to suggest it is OK to spend �5 | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
billion of our money in this country on a war that none of us | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
have asked for. There are plenty of people who don't think any | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
government should be allowed to commit genocide. When you say | :16:22. | :16:32. | |
:16:32. | :16:33. | ||
genocide... Can I put those points... What about Rolando? -- | :16:33. | :16:43. | |
:16:43. | :16:43. | ||
and Rwanda. You look at this from two sides. You did Israeli national | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
service and you are a criminologist. Correct. What value could that | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
National Service have been preventing crime? The first thing | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
is it gives them something to do while they are at a vulnerable age. | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
If you're 18 or 19 and it had something to do, instead of being | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
on the streets, you can do national service. We spoke about the | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
military, but there are all sorts of things you can do way you don't | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
have to see combat. I understand the argument about Iraq and | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
Afghanistan, but the issue is whether this sort of intervention | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
will decrease crime and I think it could. It introduces the melting | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
pot between different sections of society. Different people from | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
different backgrounds come together and they do something for the | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
common goal and it seems like a good idea that we have had positive | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
experiences with this in a lot of places around the world. It can be | :17:44. | :17:52. | |
technology, computers, police, hospitals, schools. They can tie up | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
a national service to different benefits. Child tax credits. If you | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
did a couple of years of military service or any other service, maybe | :18:03. | :18:11. | |
you can get tuition paid for by the government. Thank you. A viewer has | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
got in touch. Eric. You served in the Army? Do you think more people | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
should? A no because I don't think the army should be used as a | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
probation service. The army is a small, highly trained, technical | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
streamlined a fighting force, it is not there to teach the sort of | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
people we have seen it on our streets respect, manners and | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
behaviour that they should have been taught from day one at home. I | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
think it is quite wrong that the army should even be considered as a | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
training ground for those sorts of people. Quite frankly, I don't | :18:51. | :18:59. | |
think the government ought to do it anyway. The infrastructure... Money | :18:59. | :19:09. | |
:19:09. | :19:11. | ||
could be better spent... SOUND PROBLEMS. | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
That is our text Paul today. Should national service be compulsory for | :19:16. | :19:26. | |
:19:26. | :19:32. | ||
all young people? If you think it You have around 20 minutes before | :19:32. | :19:42. | |
:19:42. | :19:43. | ||
The police get it in the neck when they are too tough on the streets | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
and then we lambast them for next week for not being tough enough. | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
This week David Cameron suggested plastic bullets, water cannon and | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
back-up from the army. Have the seven days in August made up your | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
mind? This is a public order warning. Will all members of the | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
public pleas disburse now? As the law on our streets broke down, | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
citizens were forced to defend themselves. If the Met is not here, | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
tough luck, we will take the law into our own hands. Would they have | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
had to have done this if the rioters had feared the police more? | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
It took 16,000 police officers to calm the capital. Those numbers are | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
not sustainable. David Cameron said this week the police were too timid | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
in their response and they need the confidence to use more force. | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
Whatever tactics the police feel they need to employ, they will have | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
legal backing to do so. Nothing is off the table. In just one week, | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
weapons associated with the troubles in Northern Ireland were | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
being suggested for use on the streets of England. But some argue | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
it was the use of force in the police shooting of Mark Duggan | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
which triggered the violence in Tottenham. So would more police | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
violence simply breed more public violence? There are already | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
concerns over how much force was used in previous civil unrest and | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
some say that criticism has made the police too wary of cracking | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
down this time. Others say those out on the streets deserved all | :21:21. | :21:31. | |
:21:31. | :21:32. | ||
they got. And if you have a webcam, you can make your point to us. | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
You can also join the conversation on Twitter. | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
And now we welcome a vicar from Hackney, the Reverend Rose Hunt son. | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
Good morning. -- Rose Hunt some. More proactive policing and perhaps | :21:50. | :21:57. | |
more force have -- would they have shut things down earlier? I don't | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
know about force. What I do know is that perhaps more police presence | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
would have been helpful, but clearly as the police have set | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
themselves, they did not have the numbers. I was in Hackney at the | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
time when they were throwing things. There was a thin blue line of | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
police officers and I was shattered to see the bricks and bottles being | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
thrown at people, ordinary human beings. The police are not an alien | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
force, they are people's husbands and wives and brothers and fathers. | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
They needed reinforcement, they got reinforcement and restore calm. | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
Douglas, it was flooding the streets with police, wasn't it, | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
that brought this to an end? Absolutely. There have been some | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
people who have gone way over the top of what they think should now | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
happen. We are sitting in Belfast and Belfast knows well that if you | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
start putting soldiers on the streets, things can escalate very | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
fast and I think that is a bad idea. Ba there has been a terrible loss | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
of public confidence in the police by the fact that a large number of | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
members of the public have seen the police holding back, allowing not | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
just criminality and looting, but also in some cases members of the | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
public being attacked by those people. And the police seeming not | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
to have taken the role they should have done to protect the public. | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
There has been a huge loss of confidence in the police and it | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
will take a lot of work from the plate -- police do get back that | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
confidence. Terry, too timid? kind of agree with what Douglas has | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
said. There is a feeling that the police force have been slightly | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
emasculated, possibly because of prosecutions and Ian Thomson's | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
death. He was a harmless man and all of the kettling that went on, | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
killed by the police. -- Ian Tomlinson. Shorey there has to be a | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
small parades -- place somewhere between harming an innocent man and | :24:00. | :24:07. | |
causing his death and being spectators to what was acts of | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
looting and criminality. We keep talking about young people. In | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
Manchester, the majority of the people arrested from the looting | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
were way into their twenties, 30s and 40s. There were hardened | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
criminal gangs involved. There are different causes to each of these | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
riots. The police were like spectators, they said they did not | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
have enough minders, but they sat back and let it go on. -- numbers. | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
I have been out in Manchester city centre and seen people getting | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
beaten up, reported it to a policeman and they're not | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
interested. Ian McDonald is a former assistant Chief Constable at | :24:50. | :25:00. | |
Merseyside police. You dealt with the Toxteth riots. How much force | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
is it possible to use in these situations? Of the police not | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
confident about using the necessary force? The police have cleared | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
guidelines on the levels of force they can use and it has to be | :25:14. | :25:21. | |
proportionate. Once a riot is under way, nobody can police them | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
perfectly. The police need the powers to stop these people from | :25:24. | :25:34. | |
assembling. When you hear talk of rubber bullets, water cannon and | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
possibly bringing in the army, do you think yes, that is necessary, | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
or that is completely over the top? Yes and no. As far as rubber | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
bullets and water cannon are concerned, our colleagues in | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Northern Ireland will advise us on that. As far as the army coming in, | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
I have yet to see a situation in the last century where the army | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
going into a situation of civil unrest has brought it to an end. | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
Sir Michael Winner is chairman of the Police Memorial Trust. His | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
there a danger, Michael Winner, that using more aggression can | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
increase aggression? You can't increase it much more than what we | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
have seen in the recent riots. Short of them stringing people up | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
from lamp-posts, I don't see how it could increase. What the public, | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
and I include myself, felt particularly in the first couple of | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
days is that there didn't appear to be, and I am not blaming the police | :26:33. | :26:41. | |
on this, enough to tempt to stop the rioting. -- attempt. You have | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
to bring in whatever is necessary, the army, rubber bullets, water | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
cannon, gas, I don't care what it is. Citizens should not be | :26:51. | :26:56. | |
subjected to this. We always have this softly-softly approach, this | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
is where it has got us. We have not really had a softly-softly approach | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
in the past. In 1981 and what happened in Moss Side, the police | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
went in particularly hard and lost a lot of support from that | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
community. Some of the punishments handed out were unfair. I don't | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
think there were enough police numbers. All of this idea of | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
plastic bullets and water cannon, face the facts, you can't afford to | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
put the police service... -- Cut the police service for top of | :27:28. | :27:37. | |
course there should be more police. Where there -- where they have been | :27:37. | :27:44. | |
restrained by his mentally by the knowledge that if they do anything | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
that the politically correct brigade will be charging them with | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
the breaching of Human Rights... is not a politically incorrect | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
Brigade in the case of Ian Tomlinson. He was innocent. The | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
police can get out of hand, but there has to be a small space | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
somewhere between that and acting as a spectator. The police in | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
Manchester said they were outnumbered by the rioters and that | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
is why they did not going. They were clearly outnumbered initially. | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
What I saw in Hackney, there were many more people rioting van there | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
were police. Whether they were not expecting vast numbers together so | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
quickly on the street, we are in New Times. It is unfair in that | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
context to expect of the police officers to go into that Frank Cass | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
and not only have themselves buttoned-up other people. There | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
were probably even more spectators in Hackney than there were police. | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
The question has to be asked, and we are asking police to put their | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
lives on the line, and I am wondering why the community were | :28:52. | :29:02. | |
:29:02. | :29:05. | ||
watching what was going on. Becoming that thin blue line. | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
were big criminal elements involved in these riots and the locals are | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
scared of there, too. For years, as long as it has been confined to | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
those areas, the police have turned a blind eye. I have never talked | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
about David Cameron talking about how disgraceful it is. They are our | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
children and people in the community. Later today, David | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
Cameron, who has been in office a long time, is talking about zero | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
tolerance and he is right. What we have had until now his total | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
tolerance. We have tolerated every nonsense. The citizen has been | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
brushed aside and I don't accept we shouldn't be tougher and rougher. | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
No one is saying we should be tougher, but it has been allowed to | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
go one. When it starts affecting London, when it is the Olympics, | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
something must be done. We have had gangs with guns on the streets for | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
years. Of course something should have been done then. Why wasn't it? | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
Tolerance beyond belief. There clearly is a swinging back and | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
forth from the police. We saw it at the G20 riots and the response to | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
the policing there when the police failed to stop people storming | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
public buildings in London, the anti- tuition fees protests last | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
year. One quick thing because this has become a big political tool. | :30:27. | :30:36. | |
This issue about the cuts in police numbers. Nobody wants to see fewer | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
police on the streets. Labour have been behaving quite disgracefully | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
in trying to make this political point this week. What the coalition | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
cuts are trying to do is not to cut the numbers of police on the street, | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
but to cut the number of people sitting at desks and writing | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
reports. You can't get the convictions without the paperwork. | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
You could have as many or more police on the street if you free | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
them up from the paperwork. They can't get the convictions were that | :31:04. | :31:14. | |
:31:14. | :31:16. | ||
The courts are far too lenient. And Mrs Thatcher would have dealt with | :31:16. | :31:24. | |
this in seconds. In places like inner cities, we also want a police | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
force that is going to be respectful of the people that it is | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
policing. Time and time again, I have mothers, parents, fathers who | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
tell me that they are genuinely... And when I hear the young people | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
say it, I sometimes hear it with a pinch of salt, but when I hear | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
mothers who are in distress because the police even disrespect the | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
parents themselves, standing there with their children, if the police | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
disrespect the parents, then the parents almost lose their moral | :31:54. | :32:03. | |
right to engage with their children. Michael, you do not live in one of | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
those areas and have not ever done. There is a myth about the police | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
being soft in these areas. If you do not live in those areas either? | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
I grew up in one! I have a 19-year- old nephew who was pulled to the | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
floor in a street in Preston by the police with a gun to his head. He | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
has never committed any crime other than the fact that he is black. | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
That kind of thing is going on out of your sight and out of my sight, | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
but it happens more than you think. It is not soft policing in the way | :32:35. | :32:42. | |
you think. Let's speak to a 19- year-old from Lewisham in London. | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
Stephen, what is your experience of relations with police where you | :32:45. | :32:53. | |
live? Hi, everyone. Growing up around this area, I have had my | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
fair share of ups and downs with police officers. I am not try to | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
say all of them are all bad, but my experience is, most of it has been | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
bad from the police officers. I get stopped and searched so often. It | :33:08. | :33:14. | |
gets to me. Why I am I always getting stopped and searched? Why | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
is it always me? Let me give you an example of what happened one time | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
when I was working. I went to the toilet next to the centre where I | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
was working, and the police officer came out of his car and started | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
questioning me. I answered all his questions. Another guy that works | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
with me came over and said don't worry, he worked with me. And the | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
police officer turned around and went to the guy. It is all right, I | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
don't care about you, you can go away, I want to talk to him. And I | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
was like, what do you mean? He just said I have worked for him and I | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
have not done anything wrong. And he was still questioning me and | :33:53. | :34:00. | |
saying, I am going to need you. That is goading. It was all stupid | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
things that get me upset. My nephew has had it four or five times, and | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
he did not even get an apology. He was shaking for days. If you knew | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
that the police could used more force, and we have heard the phrase | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
"a rougher and tougher", how would that affect relations? It would not | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
help the relationship at all. You need the police officers to be able | :34:25. | :34:32. | |
to engage with the community, you know what I mean? If you can't do | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
that, you can't break that stereotype of all police being bad. | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
Douglas, if we want these young people to show compassion and love | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
and respect and be peaceful, as Stephen is saying, shouldn't we | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
treat them that way? There are two sides to this. Firstly, of course | :34:49. | :34:56. | |
the police should not be goading or doing anything like that. But those | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
mistakes, when they are made, can on occasion be remedied. The other | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
side of this equation is this. We cannot let people off when they do | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
do criminal acts from being subjected to a rigorous examination | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
afterwards. Let me give an example. A lot of people get stopped and | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
searched. The gentleman here is an example. I have been stopped and | :35:20. | :35:29. | |
searched. It would never occur to me. Have you really been stopped | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
and searched? At yes! Up and how have they gone about doing it? Is | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
it useful to go into that? A yes. They stop you, they ask you what | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
you are carrying and all that sort of thing. I do not like that, but | :35:44. | :35:51. | |
my feeling is that if you are doing a job, you do it decently. I am | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
inconvenienced, but if that is what is needed to keep the community | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
safe, fine. It would never occur to me to store up resentment from that | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
and two and up using it as an excuse to steal trainers. Some | :36:05. | :36:11. | |
people have been doing that. If in a month, you are stopped half a | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
dozen times or even 20 times, and young people in the streets tell us | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
that they are constantly stopped. I am not against stop-and-search. I | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
want guns to be taken off our streets and nice to be removed, | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
because it means our young people will be alive. But it must be done | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
properly. Richard Wright about police brutality. But you cannot | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
deny that as people watched those riots, they wondered where police | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
were not showing either more force or more confidence in using that | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
force. Why do you think that is? Well, I think there was a complete | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
breakdown in policing. That tends to happen when riots break out. | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
Those are the conditions for riots breaking out. But let's not lose | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
sight of what happened. The spark that triggered this was an example | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
of bad policing in which a young man had his life taken away. | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
Subsequently, there was a protest that was peaceful until a 16-year- | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
old girl was beaten up by riot officers. I live in Enfield. That | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
was one of the areas that was hit. In the afternoon in the build-up to | :37:22. | :37:30. | |
the riots taking place, the police were around the area, telling shops | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
to close down. There were dozens of riot police. There were apparently | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
hundreds of arrests. So it is not the lack of preparation that caused | :37:40. | :37:48. | |
the riots to take place. Underlying this is the real grievances. It is | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
easy to reduce this to poverty or spending cuts, and these are | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
important. But a much more cutting- edge issue is injustice. People | :37:56. | :38:03. | |
talk about soft policing, but between 1998 and 2010, 333 people | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
died in police custody. Not one officer was convicted of any of | :38:08. | :38:15. | |
those deaths. That is why communities do not have confidence | :38:15. | :38:24. | |
in the IPCC. Unfortunately, we are slightly losing your microphone. So | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
we are going to switch to Stuart Davidson, who used to be a police | :38:27. | :38:33. | |
officer in this country and left to work in Canada. Do you think there | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
is a difference over there that English police could learn from | :38:37. | :38:47. | |
:38:47. | :38:47. | ||
the? I was not armed in the UK, and now I have a Taser, a pistol and an | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
assault rifle. And I have the training to use them, and it makes | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
a big difference when police in the streets. Why? Because bad people | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
are scared of you. Do you think that is the problem in England, | :39:00. | :39:07. | |
that there is not enough feel of the police? Well, I do not know. I | :39:07. | :39:13. | |
was fighting with people every other week almost in England. Now, | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
nobody fights with the police. Everyone does what you say. And | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
people are more respectful of the police than in England. I do not | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
know if that is because we carry guns or not. But generally, people | :39:27. | :39:33. | |
wave at me with all their fingers and do as they are asked. It is a | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
better society as well, more egalitarian. Gerry from Londonderry | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
says that after a couple of hours of Wood in Londonderry, the plastic | :39:44. | :39:51. | |
bullets come up. They have different rules. Another viewer | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
says we drafted in more police from outside London, and then the riots | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
stopped. David from Merseyside has e-mailed to say he was an officer | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
present during the riots in Salford and was one of 12 officers and a | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
attack by up to 300 rioters. He had bricks and bottles thrown at him | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
and seven, including himself, were injured. He says, we stayed until | :40:15. | :40:25. | |
:40:25. | :40:25. | ||
the fire was put out. Manchester police were up against a | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
hardcore criminal element in Salford. These are very complex | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
issues. There is no one Pot Noodle solution that you add instant water, | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
and this will work. It is a lot of different things. But will we get a | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
report like in 1981? I doubt it. The question is, why is it | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
happening in this country? And we will discuss that in a moment. | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
Stay to come: our kids are going on the rampage to steal trainers and | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
flat-screen TVs. In Chile, students are rioting for a better education. | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
Should we be surprised? Is our obsession with material wealth to | :41:03. | :41:13. | |
:41:13. | :41:37. | ||
Above the din of the riots and the clamour of voices calling for | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
retribution, there were three voice of that many people thought stood | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
out this week. Perhaps the most effective in calming the tension | :41:45. | :41:55. | |
:41:55. | :42:25. | ||
was the father of one of the Up rose, you talked about why the | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
community did not step up and speak out. That was what Pauline did. | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
that was what she was saying. And there was something really in what | :42:34. | :42:41. | |
she was saying. But underlying all of that, we live in a society where | :42:41. | :42:47. | |
it is all celebrity. It is "get it today". Footballers, people doing | :42:47. | :42:54. | |
their own thing, behaving badly. And society says it is OK. We live | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
in a society where we tell our children when they are 14 years old | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
that they can get condoms, birth control, and the parents do not | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
need to be involved. Meanwhile, we have a parent here, Tariq Jay Hunt, | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
who suffered the most grievous loss, and yet spoke out so eloquently and | :43:12. | :43:19. | |
powerfully. He is the outstanding hero of this week. Such an | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
extraordinarily moving... I don't know how he spoke so soon after the | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
murder of his son. You could imagine that in that situation, the | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
things someone might have said. Absolutely. Here you see a man with | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
a moral courage and faith. Even at this terrible period in his life. | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
He could have called for retribution. He could have ignited | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
a most terrible war in his city, and he didn't. He said one needed | :43:49. | :43:59. | |
:43:59. | :43:59. | ||
saying. These are people losing their lives. What he did not say | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
was, there would be no need for me to have been detected the shops, | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
had there been enough police on the street. Meanwhile, the Malaysian | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
student who people also a watch on YouTube, could easily have also | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
said, what is going on here? I am leaving. But again, he said, I am | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
staying. This is still a great place. And a Facebook page has been | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
set up and people raised money for him. The irony is that students are | :44:27. | :44:35. | |
getting mugged all the time. They are quite naive. But what happens | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
to them gets ignored. More fuss is being made about it because we have | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
had the riots this week. It is not so much that more fuss is being | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
made. We all know the story of the Good Samaritan. Here we have a guy | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
who was beaten up, blood all over. And people come, and instead of | :44:55. | :45:03. | |
assisting him, they start stealing from him. That is what the fuss is. | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
They are worried about London's PR. We were seeing a wicked thing done | :45:09. | :45:19. | |
The fact that this happened and people showed compassion... They | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
should publicise all those muggings. Douglas, though his voice has | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
seemed to ring out loudly, do you think for many people what those | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
three people said speaks much louder than what they are hearing | :45:32. | :45:40. | |
from politicians? It is possible. We need all of these voices in the | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
discussion, we need politicians to say some of it, sometimes you need | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
politicians to speak out more bravely. But nobody will remember | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
what the politicians said this week, they will remember those people. | :45:53. | :45:59. | |
You have been voting this morning. We asked, should national service | :45:59. | :46:05. | |
be compulsory for young people? The poll is closing now so pleased | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
don't text any more. You could still be charged. We will bring you | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
the result at the end of the programme. | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
Let's dig further into the possible causes. The French riots about | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
pensions, the Greeks riot about cuts, but the English lute Foot | :46:26. | :46:34. | |
Locker for trainers. What does this say? Could it be a few delinquents | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
or is our consumer greed having consequences? | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
Rioting is nothing new, people have risen up over race, policing, the | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
poll tax and globalisation. It is not unusual for the police for | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
public property to be targeted. This time, some of the motivation | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
appeared to be pure greed. Why are you going to miss an opportunity to | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
get free stuff that is worth loads of money? On these people just | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
violent criminal scum disregarding human life in the pursuit of mobile | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
phones and trainers or were they just copying standards they had | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
seen elsewhere? The nation's favourite pastime until recently | :47:11. | :47:18. | |
was shopping and getting into debt to do it. And many of our role | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
models of celebrities with lavish lifestyles and it goes right to the | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
top. Recently, many bankers, politicians, press and police have | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
seemed much more interested in money than morals and suffered very | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
little for it. There can be no excuse for the destruction of lives | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
and property we saw this week. But are they just a dark mirror on the | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
actual values of our consumer society? Can the blame for the | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
riots fall on our own greed? You can join in by webcam or make | :47:53. | :48:00. | |
your point online or by phone. You already mentioned role models, what | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
do you think? Materialistic role- models, of a partly to blame? | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
of that is part leap in the equation. In our society we have a | :48:10. | :48:17. | |
poverty of spirit. A moral vacuum. Anything goes. What we have seen in | :48:17. | :48:23. | |
the rioting is a result of that. that because parents are not | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
inculcating it or is it because society as a whole is telling young | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
people they need to have the latest but not enabling them to have it? | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
The message from society is you can have whatever you want. You have a | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
right to have whatever you want and do whatever you want. Now that we | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
have the right, society is saying call your children back. Which | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
children? The same children you have taken away from us and taken | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
away away responsibility as parents? There is a problem. | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
Successive governments have a raised parental responsibility and | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
given children rights. Now the children have risen up and that is | :49:05. | :49:13. | |
what we see. Who were on them enters? Celebrities, footballers, | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
people who sometimes don't have good moral values. The local | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
gangster. In some areas. Douglas, of there mentors, perhaps some | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
might say the bankers, who they might think were responsible for | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
this financial meltdown but didn't seem to be punished. All the MPs | :49:32. | :49:38. | |
who fiddled their expenses? We have to get away from this thing of | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
taking blame from anyone. The people who did the looting and | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
committed the acts of criminal or - - criminality, they are responsible | :49:46. | :49:53. | |
for their actions for top of there underlying causes? Sure. We do live | :49:53. | :49:59. | |
in the most extraordinarily debased society. All of the people shoved | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
on to young people as role models are vacuous, empty, mainly lacking | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
in any kind of achievement of the kind generation ago would have been | :50:09. | :50:15. | |
thought of as an achievement. Young people notice this. You can see it | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
in the behaviour of children on the streets. You can see it in what | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
they aspire to. Will you tally up the kind of corruption... There is | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
a rich seam of immorality throughout society. You have MPs | :50:29. | :50:35. | |
travelling expenses, bankers who impoverished all of us paying | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
themselves massive bonuses. You have got politicians intertwining | :50:41. | :50:49. | |
with corrupt press proprietors and what seems to be corrupt policemen. | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
They are unified by the same thing. They should all be punished, | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
shouldn't they? Absolutely. They don't have a willingness to take | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
responsibility. This is what is interesting. MPs did not take | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
responsibility for their actions. You say you don't believe in | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
different solutions for different cultures and all that. Let's get it | :51:11. | :51:17. | |
down to David Cameron, that kid, he was looting and he stole a bottle | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
of water, he has been sent down for six months. But David Cameron, when | :51:21. | :51:29. | |
it comes to Andy Coulson, I believe in giving everybody a second chance. | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
Let's fast-track them. You call yourself an anarchist, was this | :51:33. | :51:40. | |
some kind of moral anarchy? I don't think the riots and the looting had | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
anything to do with anarchy. As an anarchist, you can look at why this | :51:45. | :51:51. | |
happened, but instead of everyone having what Terry Christian calls a | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
Pot noodle solution, look at the bigger picture, which is years and | :51:55. | :52:01. | |
years of this moral vacuum. Years of bankers running away with money, | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
years of big companies getting away with �6 billion tax dodging. David | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
Cameron is not doing anything about that. Somebody steals something | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
from a shop and they get sent down, it is ridiculous. Craig is from the | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
Institute of ideas. What do you think? Are people just dressing | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
this up with some sort of political theory when it is criminality or is | :52:26. | :52:33. | |
something deeper going wrong in society? Let's switch on your | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
microphone and start you up all over again! Go ahead. Calling it | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
criminality is stating the obvious. You are right to say there is | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
definitely something wrong with the people who carried out these facts. | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
They don't have any regard for people around them. They don't have | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
any sense of community that up is he talking about bankers or rioters | :52:59. | :53:06. | |
or both? Rioters, bankers, politicians and the kind of fated | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
businessmen like Philip Green who managed to dodge paying �1 billion | :53:10. | :53:20. | |
in tax. Terry! Tax-avoidance, not against the law. Craig? There is | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
nothing... These people committed crimes, but to justify it by saying | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
bankers do it as well. I am not justifying it. Let Craig have his | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
say. He is putting words in my mouth. It is not an excuse to say | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
just because somebody else is doing it. Terry, stop talking over Craig. | :53:40. | :53:49. | |
As long as he doesn't put words in my mouth. You just said people | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
refute these bankers. They are all dreadful and criminals, that is | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
what I think. Terry, I will have to ask you to let Craig have his say. | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
As long as he doesn't mention what I have said. Craig, please | :54:02. | :54:12. | |
:54:12. | :54:13. | ||
These people stole from the people around them, they had no sense of | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
community, no sense of the people around them. They did not care. The | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
reason for that is because they have been robbed of a sense of | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
community by a government who continually interfered in their | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
lives. It gives them no reason to trust other people, it gives them | :54:30. | :54:36. | |
no reason to rely on people around them. It is no surprise that they | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
might steal from those very people they live alongside, burn down | :54:40. | :54:48. | |
their businesses and burn down people who are actually trying to | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
get ahead. You talked about consumerism, the people who had | :54:54. | :54:59. | |
these businesses that were burned down, they want nice shoes and nice | :54:59. | :55:05. | |
TV's as well. Consumerism doesn't explain it at all. As important as | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
focusing on the things that have been attacked, it is interesting, | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
the things that haven't been attacked. This does tell us a lot | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
about the objectives. Public buildings were not attacked. This | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
was not a pre- revolutionary France situation. Things selling | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
Borderline goods were not attacked. The first priority was luxury goods. | :55:28. | :55:35. | |
It shows us that when criminals, some people jump in and take an | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
opportunity and most of them took what they wanted. Katie was a | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
witness in Oldham. You were involved in the clean-up. What do | :55:45. | :55:52. | |
they take? I was involved in the clean-up, yes. A hi-fi store got | :55:52. | :56:01. | |
trashed. There was a jeweller's that was absolutely ransacked. | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
These are not things people need, these are things people want and | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
there is a massive difference. things you could sell, they stole | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
keyboards from a music shop. All of the things society says you have to | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
have this if you want to be somebody. If you take a community | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
like ours, we have based schools building fund that we asked | :56:22. | :56:29. | |
families to contribute to. The children turn up at school wearing | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
�100 trainers. But their parents can't afford to contribute to this | :56:32. | :56:42. | |
fund. Patsy is from mothers against violence. What are your thoughts? | :56:42. | :56:48. | |
think it is about everything. Everything I am hearing. For me, | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
the most important thing is values. If you instil values in children, | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
as they get older, they will try things out. I am seeing a bit of | :57:01. | :57:07. | |
everything. I am hearing the young people's voice in all of this. They | :57:07. | :57:16. | |
are saying... It is about things. They are valuing things. Things are | :57:16. | :57:25. | |
more important than people. Thank you so much. We have to end it | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
there. We asked, should national service be compulsory for all young | :57:30. | :57:40. | |
:57:40. | :57:43. | ||
74% said yes. National Service? Possible solution? No, families. We | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
have to go back to the community. We have to go back to families and | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
parents and fathers. We need to build the foundation of our | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
community life. I will say this. Face. Douglas? What we have seen in | :57:58. | :58:04. | |
the last week, and nation wondering what it is. When the Pope came here | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
last year, he said something interesting, you have to ask | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
yourself what it is you want to be. That question has come up this week | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
and we are very unhappy with the answer. Let's leave it. | :58:17. | :58:24. | |
Bullington club, national service. Thank you to my guests are today. | :58:24. | :58:28. |