Episode 7 Sunday Morning Live

He was one of the Three jailed for the death of Baby P, but Jason Owen

has been freed after serving just half of his six-year sentence.

Should prisoners ever be released Good morning and welcome to Sunday

Morning Live. When a criminal like Jason Aaron Lewis prison early it

shocks us all, but Jonathan May- Bowles, who through a foam pipe at

Rupert Murdoch will also be released halfway through his

sentence. It happens too many criminals. But is it right?

Should parenting classes be compulsory for all of us or would

that be the nanny state made worse? Demand for real life exorcists is

on the up. One Reverend Practitioner says that what she

does is not mumbo-jumbo. The devil is real but God is all-

powerful. I believe we've got's help I can cast out demons. -- with

God's help. Reverend Hargreaves is a member of

the Christian party. Francis Beckett is a left-wing journalist

whose father was interned as a fascist sympathiser. He is now

making it as they sit down playwrite. Simon Warr was the

headmaster on the TV series That'll Teach 'Em. He also had the enviable

job of caning Adrian Chiles live on TV. As we get our teeth into those

topics, so can you. You can join in on Skype and give your opinion on

Twitter and by telephone. Phone- calls cost up to 25 pence per

minute from a BT landline. Text messages will be charged at the

standard message break. -- rate. It is an astonishing fact that most

criminals get out of jail halfway through the sentence that was

handed down in court. The idea is to make rehabilitation work better

but is it too high a price to pay for victims that may feel cheated

by justice? This week, Jason alone, one of the three people convicted

of the death of Peter Connelly, was released from Wandsworth prison. --

Jason error. He was sentenced to six years and did half of that. He

was not simply freed, he was assessed not to be a threat to the

community and he will serve the rest of his sentence on licence,

meaning he is under strict conditions. If he breaches then he

goes back to prison immediately to serve his full sentence. He is also

under close supervision from his probation officer. Is this justice?

For victims of any crime that can feel like criminals are getting off

too lightly. Most prisoners can expect to serve just 50% of a

sentence in prison. Even for murderers, life can mean just 14

years behind bars. The Government says that releasing prisoners on

licence means they are less likely to reoffend than if they serve

their full time in jail. It encourages rehabilitation and

reform. Prisoners get used to living in the real world and they

are given support to find a job and stay out of trouble. It also stops

our already overcrowded prison system from bursting at the seams.

But why not make someone serve their full sentence in jail, punish

them properly? If a criminal has committed the crime, should they do

all of the time? France's, why shouldn't they? There is no point

in keeping people in prison just for the sake of it. If they are no

longer a threat to the community, and we know that, they should be

released. That is the question for our text vote, is early release

justified? If you think it can be, text there were the vote followed

by the word yes. The number is 081771. The full terms and

conditions, please visit our website. We will show you how you

voted at the end of the programme. Reverend, you have been a minister

inside a prison. Why do we keep people there for the sake of it?

Not for the sake of it but for justice, punitive reasons, and for

education. The answer is very simple. Given the right tariff at

the right time, when they are in court being found guilty and the

sentence is being passed. If we think the sentence should be three

years, so that it should be three years with a period of licence. I

think that the victims would understand that. They want to hear

a sentence has been passed and carried through. I can't understand

why judges so one time and the reality is another. That is lying.

They are given a sentence and then half of that sentence is served on

licence, in many cases. They carry on serving their sentence, just not

in prison. I think there is a place for prison. I make this point again.

Why not say what you intend to do rather than the myth of going to

prison for seven years when you are not? They know before they go to

court that they will probably get half, the lawyers tell them. That

is a nonsense and we have to tell the truth. At that basic level the

judges have to tell the truth. You will be in jail for three years and

then on licence for three years. Simon? I know they say that the

equality of society is based on the compassion that we are able to show

people. But really! What is the point of keeping them in jail for

the sake of it. Well, you talk as though when people are let out

early, we don't get any reoffending. That is palpably not the case.

Reoffending levels are extremely high. And I agree. It is farcical

for a judge, and it is an insult to the victims, for the judge to say

for this particular crime you deserve a punishment, and to

protect society, and in my expert judgment I will send you away for

10 years. For a judge to so that when he really means he does not

think that, he means five years, but I know you will be let out in

five years and I am incorporating the after-care. You know, people in

this country have lost faith in the justice system. That is because of

this early release. It is farcical, an insult to the victims, and it

means that people don't have confidence in the justice system.

We keep more people in prison in this country than anywhere in

Western Europe. If there are more people in prison than in other

countries it is because there is so much crime being committed and

let's look at those issues. Simon, everything is all right. Don't

worry. We keep more people in prison in this country than

anywhere in Western Europe and we do that because we are keeping

people in prison that have no place there. I am not talking about the

Baby P killer, but the odd shoplifter with no real place in

prison at all. And prison is essential. Let me finish my point.

Prison is essentially a brutalising experience. It is not a place where

you train people to live in the community. It could be. One of the

reasons why our prisons are not that is because they are massively

overcrowded. They are so overcrowded. The solution I gave

earlier... You are way off. People can be trained to live in the

community, and they are in their alongside hardened criminals, from

whom they are learning. understand that perfectly, but the

solution I gave at the beginning clears it up. Look at where we are

with prisons and decide that we need to change the way we sentence

people. I deal with victims. And they want to hear a judgment given

that is kept to. In some cases, whether it is 10 years, 20 years,

that is not the point. Something has been done and when something

has been done on one day and that is then unravelled on another day,

that gets them. In terms of murder, some people are out after 14 years.

If that is the case, that is palpably an insult to the family of

the victim. They have got a lifetime sentence to deal with.

let's speak to a prisoner with direct experience. John Hirst, now

a campaigner for prisoner writes. What were you in prison for? I was

imprisoned for manslaughter. It is nonsense to say that people are

getting out too early. That is for the simple reason why tariff was 15

years and I actually serve 25. that is unusual, isn't it? That is

not normally the case. It can be. Some people get out earlier and

some people later. The fact is that most people get out after 50% of

the sentence. Can you stop interrupting for a moment? Get your

facts correct them. You may be an ex-prisoner but you are not getting

facts correct. Shut up, you! Hang on. John, say your piece. I was

next door to somebody convicted of murder and he had a tariff of nine

years. I was upset about that because I had 15 years and I had

only done manslaughter. Why were 10 years added on? I am curious. What

is the context? Because I challenged them legally but they

claimed that I was still in after 10 years because I was a risk to

the public but there was no evidence of that. That is the point,

the risks to the public issue is an important point. John might take

issue with it, but if the authorities think you are still a

risk, you are not released early. am not certain that is quite

correct. You should pay the time for the crime. If the crime is 15

years... If you are putting people in jail because they are a risk,

then you get the minority report. You are putting people in jail

because they are a risk only. To be in jail for 10 years because you

are a risk, I cannot go with that. If the sentence is 15 years and to

serve 15 years, you have paid your debt. Were you accused of insulting

a prison officer? As there were circumstances... I did that, but

within the 15 years. This is where the system cooks up and I paid the

price of 10 years extra. There is one person in there at the moment

serving 30 years, and he got a tariff of 10 years. He should

behave himself and then he would get five years. If you do a crime

in prison, that is worthy of another 10 years and then you

should serve those 10 years. We don't know the full facts of this.

May I just say, France has, if we are restoring faith in the justice

system, why to the judges say that they have no idea how long they

will spend in prison? It will be decided after five years by a panel

of experts. Why? John, your case is complicated and I understand there

were issues around it. I want to get to the fundamental point here.

If you are convicted of murder, or manslaughter, what is the benefit

to society of somebody being released early? It is not a

question of them being released early. Within a life sentence, and

many people don't understand this, the judge hands-down a tariff.

While some people think that life should be live in custody, it is

not. You get a life sentence, and within that you might serve 8, 10,

15 years. That is the issue. But my point is, to those watching that

think life should mean a life sentence, what is the benefit to

society of you only serve in the minimum? If there is a problem with

the public understanding it, they should change the known and just

call it a determinate sentence, rather than a life sentence if it

does not mean that. This is where the confusion comes in. Thank you

very much indeed. There is confusion around it, this point was

raised earlier. Sentences don't seem to be what they are when they

are handed out. That is absolutely right. There is a lot of early

release. The reason that you release people are early is that a

lot of it seems to me to depend on what happens afterwards. It is not

just that we are setting a tariff for a crime. It is also that we are

keeping people out of circulation once they are raid danger and if

they continue to be a danger they must remain in prison. I do wish

you would stop for a moment. If they are going to remain in prison

that has to be because they will be a danger when they are released,

rather than simply because we feel in some attributed way that they

deserve it. Colin Parry is a magistrate now. People will

remember that your son was killed in the IRA Warrington bombing. No

arrests were ever made in that case. You must sympathise with those that

see the killers of their relatives walking free, as they may see it,

girly. But as we have heard from John, they are not actually free.

As your former guest on video link was saying, the public expect life

sentences to mean life sentences. While we have ambiguous titles, the

public has a right to feel unsettled by the system. I think

the crimes of violence, murder, other serious offences, I think the

sentence handed down should be what is served. It is different when we

are talking about minor crimes when people are sentenced to some weeks

in prison. I think that is useless at the prison can do little with

them and they just take up space. As a magistrate, you can handout

sentences. Do you feel frustrated knowing that somebody only stays in

custody for half of the period of time that you are sentencing?

I think many magistrates when they are run the retiring room, deciding

what the sentence will be, will be well aware of the fact that after a

custodial sentence they will serve a good deal less than what has been

pronounced. And if you take into account public opinion, which I

think is very important, the public has a right to have a say, I think

the public would find that a No, that is not something I have

experienced. You do not second- guess the system. That would be

difficult to apply unpractised. You're not allowed to according to

the sentencing guidelines but interesting to find out if it ever

crosses anybody's mind. As I understand it the issue was that

your son's killer was not taught, surely that is the essential point,

it is not a question... You can say that we're going to be tough on

crime, have longer sentences, that is the sort of thing that

politicians say about law and order and if it means anything it unless

we are putting their resources into the policing to make sure that

people are taught. Nothing will be any sort of deterrent if we're not

putting the resources in. Let my guest dancer. I think your point

about deterrence is a fair point. It depends upon arrest rates and

sentencing and so on. In my case, no one was charged and arrested,

but had they been, and had they been given a life sentence, I would

not have expected it to happen, but I would have wanted it to happen

because they took a life, so they should surrender their right to

freedom. They should never get out and they should serve their time in

prison. I am not in favour of capital punishment, but I think

that sentencing has to be honest. lot of people in this country are

in favour of capital punishment. I am not saying whether I am more not

but a lot of people in this country think that there are certain

criminals, particularly with children involved, perhaps deserve

capital punishment. Now we have got DNA, the reason that capital

punishment was stopped is because we're frightened of sending someone

to the gallows he was then found to be innocent. Now we have DNA, we

can be sure. There are calls for a debate on that in Parliament and if

they get to a certain number of names on the petition, perhaps that

will happen. I want to stay with this issue... Since capital

punishment has been raised, it ought to be said that capital

punishment in any society is essentially brutalising the whole

system. When society kills people... Are THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE So you

are a pacifist? We want to stay with this issue

about whether early release from jail is justified. Reverend George

Hargreaves, I must speak to you about values, redemption, Mercy,

second chances, compassion. Imagine a prison where none of those were

available, that giving someone a chance to come out early provides

those opportunities? You have got to deal with the sewers of the

problem. If you have a prison that has none of those things you have a

really bad prisons. You need to be speaking to the authorities to put

that right. We have got to have honesty in sentencing. Yes has to

be yes, and no has to be no, as the Bible says, so we can have

confidence. If you do the crime, you do the time. What you do with

that time is important. You do not put men in leg irons. All sorts of

things can be gainfully done in that time. You cannot let

perpetrators feel they're getting off lightly by sentencing them to

five years and they get out into 0.5. Half of that sentence is

served in the community, some might say it is a form of punishment?

but look at what we have endured in the last 20 years with how many

crimes actually, because social services are understaffed, they

cannot keep tabs on these early release prisoners and the rate of

recidivism, reoffending, is so enormous it tells me that many, not

all, but many of these criminals who are let out early should have

served the full time for the benefit of society. We have got to

work out what you do with the time. Five years in like Aaron's is not

going to help anyone much. That is right, it depends on what you do

with the time and what we do with the time is we shove people into

prisons were we brutalise them and train them in future crime. That is

our opinion poll today. His early release from jail justified? The

-- is early. Last night's Tottenham riots were apparently a reaction to

a police shooting last week. George, you live and work close to the area

affected. What are your thoughts? The riot was totally on called for.

I am sure there were people with other Bridgend is stoking the

flames. I had phone calls this morning from congregation members

who survive, they were at a Christian event right across the

road from the police station. There were agitators who just wanted

Bladon to cause havoc. Behind the story is the shooting which

happened on Thursday which as the police have said, they say that the

man shot at a policeman and the use deadly force to stop him. I am on

police committees and I have actually been on a police operation

were that took place. The police have been working very hard. I am

not saying they have got it right, but if someone fires at a policeman,

the better know that they're going to get shot back. Police are not

trained to injure, the fire to kill. You're in my world knife. In my

area. In my own barber's shop, I gunman came men last week. Just

near my office. The gunmen have to know that if you're going to live

by the sword, you die by the sword. Most of our community actually know

that this young man was a tearaway. It is not a reason to be looting,

pillaging, burning down places. It is totally out of order. We do not

know the facts and the Tottenham MP, David Lammy, I mean, we do not know

the individual either, but David Lammy has said that true justice

can only follow a thorough investigation. Yes, but what I want

to say is that someone in that community we are speaking about, I

am not speaking about Belfast riots, I am talking about my community,

and we're fed up of gun crime and people mugging people. To try and

use this as a trigger point and burning down the city, it is

absolutely wrong. I think George's rushing to judgment which is really

not very Christian of him. We do not know anything of this incident

yet to rush to the conclusions that George has just jumped to. With

respect, I know people... George, let me... No, you're saying

something that is wrong. I could say more, but we are on live

television. I am only saying what the police have said, that there

was gunfire. There is an investigation going on. I am sure

that you could say more, but let me say something. I realise how much

you want law and order. The police do have a problem in this country.

They have the problem that they have lost the trust has a number of

communities. I have recently been writing stories about an entirely

different sort of community where the police, to some extent, and

this is the policing of football matches, the police, to some extent

through their own fault, the police have lost the trust of the people.

What do you want them to do? Read them bedtime stories? The police

have made enormous steps. The police have gone out of their way

since 1984, they have gone out of their way to try and get social

governance. The police have lost the trust of the people they're

supposed to be policing. How have they done that? Please, just let me

finish. They have got to regain that trust and they have got to

regain it by showing their trying to police those communities in a

fair way. I do not know exactly what has happened in Tottenham...

We do. We know what has been going on in the last 12 hours. There is

violence, looting, people throwing things at the police. We can see

all of that on television. Whatever happened on Thursday is no excuse

for setting fire to police cars and buses, to endangering people's

lives. People have shops in Tottenham High Street and burning

down the premises...? What would one and that? I think a major part

of the problem we have got now is exactly that sorted ignorant knee-

jerk reaction. You shout out the horrific things that people are

doing and you do not wait to find out what has happened. You say that

he had seen the television, you know what has happened. You do not

know what has happened. We will know what has happened in a while.

I am sure we will, and we will discuss it then. Very briefly.

worked for Brian Paddick for two years on the protocol for stop-and-

search so there would be better relationships within the community.

I took on that committee because I could remember the search lots back

in the 1970s and 1980s. That cost a lot of resentment. It was all

wasted because the politicians over road it. Politicians are hampering

some very good community work. local MP has called for peace and

full understanding of the facts. Coming up on Sunday Morning Live,

could be the devil be to blame for the adultery? That is what one of

our guess later on believes and she says her exorcism can halt those

who are playing away. You can join in by a webcam, by phone, by e-mail

It is a worry that afflicts all brand new parents, how on earth do

I bring up my child, and what happens if I get it wrong? From Dr

Spock to Dr Hilary, a whole advice Industry offers conflicting notions

of how to bring a baby. Simon has chosen not to have children but

sees things that people who do should be taught how to do it

properly. Should parenting classes be compulsory for all of us?

Children may bring us joy but they also bring a lot of angst, how can

we make sure our children grow up happy, successful and well

adjusted? Even high-profile parents know how difficult it is. I also

understand the anxiety as well as the joys of painting with three

young boys of my own. And new report says that many parents need

basic tips on bringing up their children. We should reward paints

with extra child benefit if they go to parenting classes. But his

painting instinctive for can the Government teach us how to do it,

and if that is possible, should we all not have to go to painting

School, no matter how rich or poor? If we all learnt how to look after

our children, there would probably be less youth crime and fewer

children taken into care. Perhaps we would all be happier. But

compulsory parenting classes also smacks of Stalinism, a literal

nanny state. The relationship between every parent and child is

so individual that perhaps mum and dad know best. If painting comes

naturally, perhaps we should be left to get on with it or could we

all benefit from a visit from super nanny? Simon, you are a teacher,

would parenting classes help some of your pupils? When they become

parents, yes. Or simply as children? Perhaps. I just think

that the decline in parenting skills has been probably one of the

biggest social changes in this country in the last 30 or 40 years.

On the one hand we have sexless youths having unprotected sex.

-- feckless youths. If we are lucky and the father stays with the baby,

he does not have much idea how to raise the child. On the other hand

we have parents trying to pay off a mortgage, inflated house prices,

house prices far too high, so both parents have to leave the children

to go out to work. The net result is poor parenting. If you look at

some of the subjects on the school curriculum, things like cooking and

media studies, it might be a better idea... Cooking is a part of good

painting for some people. I think there are more important issues.

There are other issues that are more important, like painting

skills. I am not speaking about So you think it should not just be

compulsory for parents but part of the national curriculum? Absolutely.

Part of this is part of personal and social education. It is

instilling the values of routine, have to hold a knife and fork,

speaking properly. Francis, compulsory parenting from all would

produce better parents? I don't think it would. One of the

difficulties is that we are trying to drive all parents down one set

of tracks. We are trying to say that every single parent has to do

it in exactly the same sort of way. I hope I have been a fairly

reasonable parent but I have done all sorts of things that an awful

lot of people might disapprove of. They might feel did not work at all.

I am quite happy with the idea that there will be some sort of

Government campaign to persuade us of the basics, like spending more

time with our children, those of us that don't, but I don't think there

is any evidence whatsoever that parenting skills have declined.

There is! There is no hard evidence. The air is hard evidence.

showed me what it is. One cannot hear and Now. -- show me what it is.

It is interlinked with things like youth crime. It is part and parcel

of it. So there is no hard evidence that parenting skills have declined

over 15 years. I think there is some kind of prejudice but no hard

evidence. What is actually going on is that most people are struggling

to be good parents in their own way. That is the point. Parenting is not

easy and a bit of support and help would help people. Support, when

needed, in anything is good. I agree with a left winger over here.

I would go the route of everybody has to go down the same, compulsory

route. I am dead against that, because who decides which values

are taught? We cannot even get basic values agreed. Discipline,

how do you discipline? They naughty step or slapping? We cannot even

decide. Let me speak. We had Nick Clegg up there, he was saying that

in schools they should force, force, this is a Liberal Democrat, to

teach that homosexuality is good and right. That is not anything I

would teach in my school. You might. I should not be forced to do that.

Should I be forced at home to teach that? Like the people that could

not foster a child because of their opinion? People have different

thoughts. I do support parenting classes. I worked for Barnardo's

and we created parenting classes. It should be available and offered

where there are problems within a family. I think the Ritter problems

within families goes way back. -- the route of problems. It goes back

to the fact that authority in the home has been stolen from parents

and given elsewhere. Julie is a feminist and writer. You think that

parenting classes would be a good idea. How do you address the point

of what would be in them? I think first of all what we have to

recognise is that many men have had lead parenting to their female

partners would really benefit from learning how to raise children, and

how to teach basic right and wrong. Of course your best is right, we do

have different values and opinions on what children should be taught.

But it is not about that. It is not teaching weather being gay is

compulsory, which is what he was suggesting. If I could just finish.

I am appalled at some of the sense of entitlement and bad manners

displayed by privileged children. This is often how their parents

behaved. But often working mothers, single mothers, are blamed for

producing feckless children. The working classes of and -- are often

blamed for producing unpleasant children, but I live in an affluent

area where you will meet some very rude children. I think the teaching

of decent manners, that is old fashioned but relevant. Less steel

with a specific issue, discipline. Your child is not doing what you

want, despite them being asked 20 times. That is a common complaint.

Is it the naughty step, some physical discipline, treats, bribes,

punishment? There could be a different agenda for any class.

what we have to do is abide by the law. Actually there are laws

against physical assaults upon children. Just as there are about

physical assaults upon adults. Of course we would not go that route.

We should not and nor would we. The law comes down very harshly on

parents that to use physical disciplining of children. I would

hope that is the case. What we have to do is to teach parents how to be

responsible for raising their children, how to stop running into

the road, have to stop them being disruptive in public places.

Because they have good manners. It is not a matter of harsh discipline.

Richard, you think that parenting classes should be compulsory. At

what cost? I think they should be compulsory for people that are

wholly dependent on the state. If they are manifestly failing their

children, we should call that a kind of child abuse. We should be

saying to ourselves that we should offer them parenting help, of

course. And if they refuse it, then it is apparent in boot camp. --

parenting boot camp. The number of families failing is colossal. The

state has to pay for a huge amount of it and I think it has a right

and an obligation to say that we need to see better parenting coming

out of the huge investment that we are making. I am not clear about

that. You seem to be siding with me and yet I don't agree with one word

you are saying. How can it possibly be that there can be parenting

classes for the poor, but not for the rich? Is there any evidence

that the poor are worse parents than the rich? I am not a whereof

any. Anecdotally, I must say, from what I have seen, as Julie was

saying, the affluent middle class can be just as bad as anybody.

don't think we find that the rude children from middle-class homes

struggle to get into university and make something of their lives and

become contributors. I think there is evidence of a large number of

people that we might call the under class that systematically fail to

master even the rudiments of education, generation after

generation. I just think some people are palpably ill-equipped to

be parents. They talk about human rights, it is a human right to have

children. What about the human right of the child? The moral

obligation of that child being brought into the world? They think

that is an extremely important point. There is a moral obligation

for the child to be parented by their parents. In society, the

authority has been taken away from parents. I see this particularly in

the East End where I am. A mother is not sure whether she can smack.

Would all hell broke loose in her life with the social services? Not

sure whether grounding somebody... Cow and parenting classes help with

that issue? -- can parenting classes help? They can but I see

this time and again. Children are running up tired line, and it put

the fear offer man and God into the parent. -- the child is telephoning

ChildLine. These classes would show the parents the dangers of alcohol,

drugs, knives. These things that have escalated. Children drinking

too much. All these issues... am not sure that parenting classes

run by Mr angry would be of any use to anybody. We do that in the

church. We call it Sunday-school. Make it compulsory then. I would

not do that. They would call me a Christian Taliban. Let's speak to

an expert on this. Helping parents deal with their children, what

could possibly be wrong? There is an awful lot wrong with handing

over the job to the state. If they did it beautifully, we could all

look at children's homes and say, gosh, that is how you do it. But

children's homes of the road to ruin. But children's homes are

places where people have already had trouble with their parents. Why

not intervene early? The state produces all kinds of casualties.

40% don't go to school. 70% of children on remand have been in

children's homes. I know they come from disadvantaged homes, but the

state cannot even run the country. Why do they want to get into the

family? Many parents of very good. I think it would be really good to

have compulsory parenting classes in schools. Many of them cannot

even have read and write. Let's see what viewers say about this. At

least you need a licence to have a dog. Anybody can have a child. This

person says that parenting skills classes would be taken by parents

that care and avoided by those that should be taking them. And this

person says, the ones that are better off are the ones that put

your job before your child, but actually the poorer families spend

more time with their children. should pay women to stay at home

and have children. I think there should be state financial help.

That sounds like a debate for another time. If you agree, you can

continue on the website. You have been voting on our poll. Is early

release from jail justified? That poll is closing now, so please do

not text in because you could be charged and it will not count. We

will bring you the results at the end of the programme.

This is where we say goodbye to Simon and introduce our next guest.

This is the issue we are talking about now. If you recognise that

you are run alcoholic, drug user or sex addict, you want treatment but

where do you go? Your GP? A therapist? We to give credibility

to seeing an exorcist? -- would you give credibility? Reverend betty --

Betty King does just that. devil is real. God has given me the

grace to cast doubt the demon. Because God has given man free will,

the devil can deceive us into acting against our nature. These

evil spirits can take on many forms. We have seen many evil spirits like

Hitler, paedophiles, murderers. But the devil should not be feared

because God can give the strength to cast these spirits out of people

if they are willing. I have dealt with both men and women that have

come to me filled with the spirit of last. This strained their

marriages and relationships. While we can cast out these demons, the

person must be willing and repentant. Then we take them

through counselling. At one time, I was possessed by demons and I know

I tried everything. But it was when I found God that God completely set

me free. Welcome to Reverend Betty King. If you have a webcam, you can

join the conversation using Skype. You say you were possessed by

demons? Yes, at one time in my life I was addicted to alcohol. I grew

up in a home where my mother never drank. Many people would say that I

saw these things in my home, but my mother was very godly and I never

saw her drinking or smoking. When I was going through a certain time of

my life, although I knew to pray, I felt drawn to alcohol. I just took

a sip of vodka. Within about one month, I was addicted to alcohol. I

used to drink about two bottles of vodka every day and smoke about 40

cigarettes. My children were very young at the time. My youngest

child was six weeks old. Although I knew in my heart that what I was

doing was wrong, I could not stop it. I used to call my doctor,

saying to her, can you give me something to stop drinking? It was

like a struggle. I would wake up in the night. I remember one time I

actually got up and ordered a taxi at 3 o'clock in the morning to go

to the only place I could buy alcohol, in Willesden Green. And I

left my son in bed alone with his older brother to go and get alcohol.

Many people would seek help in that situation, but did he seek an

exorcism? Yes, but not straightaway. I continued drinking. Mind over

matter was not changing anything. I realised, where is this coming

from? Why have I suddenly given into this? I am passionate about

this, I can speak to someone about it. I realised that if you read

more of the Bible, the desire to drink leaves you. Bucolic an

exorcism, we collared deliverance. Reverend George Hargreaves, you're

also a Christian, do you recognise what the reverend is speaking

about? Yes, it is there in the Bible. Jesus cast out the demons.

In Mark nine, a man's son was having a fit, and Jesus cast out

the demons. This is in the Christian faith, it is basic

Christianity. We believe in demon possession. Where there could be a

problem it is seeing a demon under everything, and did the men in

everything. -- a demon. This is where CS Lewis made an important

point. Either the devil exists and will try to make you think he is

everywhere, or as he does not exist. Theologically, we are on solid

ground. Whether you can say a spirit of alcoholism possessed to,

but from a theological standpoint, Jesus was an exorcist. Does this

have a place in 21st Century Society? No, I think this is the

most terrible rubbish. But you're an atheist? Yes. I congratulate

Betty King on overcoming alcoholism. I have seen a very dear friend

struggle with it and fail, so congratulations on that, but I

think you're underestimating your own part in that. I think he took

the decision to do that and you succeeded. It seems to me that

there was a contradiction at the heart of the film you made there.

You said that God gives us free will bat at the same time the devil

takes us over. Then later you said that I had free will, but I

struggled and struggled and could not do it. But the fact is that you

did do it. It is making it Fakih easy to say that something comes in

from outside and takes you over Suvi do not have any choice about

becoming an alcoholic. You have the choice. Is that we are free will

comes in, Francis? Later to say that you had no choice, you did

have a choice. You made the choice and you were determined. You stop.

It seems to me that every other word in that recitation of yours

needs to be defined. -- in that presentation. What is a demon? What

is the spirit that you are speaking about? I cannot see them. I can see

a woman sitting beside me who overcame alcoholism and

congratulations on that, to you, not to some sort of spirit that

took you over and enabled you to do that. Thank you very much for what

you have just said. I wish I could take the glory that I had

completely on my own overcome alcoholism. I am a mother-of-three

children, a mother with two young children, and I love my children. I

do not think any mother would want to see two innocent children and

drink. I did everything in my will, in my strength, I did everything

that I could, and I know without a shadow of the doubt, of whether you

believe in God or not, I believe in God. It's one of these things that

I think the BBC is doing brilliantly is discussing this in

this day and age were all around us things are falling. People are

beginning to drink and take drugs and various things. There is an

imbalance in this country. You may think that we chose to do that, but

the devil uses different opportunities to mess up the lives

of people. You feel that you were helped in this way but I want to

introduce you to a man who is from recovering fundamentalists. He

joins us from the United States this morning. You experience this

as a teenager, but you'd done that think it is a positive experience?

-- but you do not think it is a positive experience. No, I do not.

As a teenager, I became convinced that we were being attacked by

demons, me and some friends. I thought I was being attacked.

Several other teams in the church youth group started praying over me

in a ritual like fashion to cast doubt the demons. The whole

experience created a climate of fear in my life by reinforcing the

paranoia that I was being attacked by demons. It also reinforced this

dependence on a very dogmatic belief system without a cure.

do you think had actually made you feel bad? I had a friend he

believed he was being attacked by demons. There was a very prevalent

belief among other people I was associated with at the time. I

think it was a serious state of fear in psychology at work, not

anything supernatural. That is completely untrue. You were raised

in an evangelical church. God is love. When you know that

deliverance is taking place, why would you fear? Show me wide --

show me why God is love? Let me finish. God Islam. When deliverance

is taking place, it comes from a place of love. Many of us are bound

by the spirits because of a fear, one fear or another, fear of

rejection. I was rejected, that is why I started drinking, but the

love of God comes to cast doubt these demons. Why would you be

afraid? All you are left with his fear. You are never left with fear

in deliverance. It is interesting that you, deliverance, because we

would collect exorcism. It is like a clever rebranding that has been

done there. If you have that background, you know it is called

deliverance. You say it is loving, but I can give a really good

example. A man share to a story -- a man shared his story on my

website. This man is gay. The experience cost him a severe amount

of psychological trauma. He received treatment in his life, and

it has hurt other people. I want to introduce another guest, because

this is not exclusive to Christianity. You're from the Hindu

academy. The Hindu tradition does not recognise this. We do not

recognise the devil. This exercise is dangerous because you are

preying on vulnerable people in the name of religion, so we're very

coshes and apprehensive about the whole issue. The Hindu philosophy

does not accept a devil interfering with humanity.

Exorcism is not forced upon you. You do not go to someone's house

unless you have legal authority to do so. In order for that to happen,

the person who needs deliverance has to ask for it. If you go to a

doctor and say that you have the symptoms, they will sit down and

diagnose why you're getting the headaches before you get the right

medication. We never force anyone. One last word from my guest.

This is very unfortunate. The Hindu metaphysics recognises that one

individual can influence another, like hypnosis. I am afraid we are

out of time on that debate. Still so much to talk about. Thank you

for your time. If you have a view on that, please go to our website.

We have to end it there because the text opinion poll vote using. We

ask is early release from jail justified and here is what you told

92 % said that early release from jail is not justified. Francis, U

18 % of the argument. I will shake hands with every single one of them.

It shows that the legal system has a lot of work to do. Betty King,

have you thought about this this morning? I agree completely with

the Reverend George Hargreaves. Victims need time to heal. In this

circumstance, people who have chosen to do evil up have the

chance to get out. Releasing people early, like Milly Dowler's family,

for instance, it just causes pain for the victim's family. Yes, we do

not gloat, we just thank God that there is common sense out there.

You do the crime, you do the time. Thank you to all of my guess who

have taken part in the programme, Betty King, Simon Warr, Reverend

George Hargreaves, and Francis Beckett. Please do not use the