Episode 6 Sunday Morning Live

A British woman wants her Indian A British woman wants her Indian

husband to live here. The law stops him because he can't speak English.

What do you think? Is it racist to insist immigrants speak the

language? Morning Live. Is Rashida Chapti's

right to a married life more important than an insistence we

share a common language? Grannies and shopkeepers were

honoured as have-a-go heros at the bravery awards. But one fearless

reporter says we should be more fearful of weighing in.

There is no place in society for the There is no place in society for the

Good Samaritan. If you see a happening, don't offer to intervene,

The late designer, Alexander The late designer, Alexander

McQueen, is making news after death. He left �50,000 to his dogs.

Millions of us plan to leave to pets or pet charities. In a world

of starving children, what does say about us?

My guests this week have all lived dangerously, Donal MacIntyre has

been a tough investigative journalist most of his days, risking

his life to get hooligans locked and risked his limbs in Dancing on

Ice. Therapist Jenni Trent Hughes has

tried everything from oil exploration to nightclub management.

She is also tamed toddlers. And James Whale lived dangerously on

the air waves for decades, so far, earning him awards and

threats. We would like to know what

think. Call in now to challenge our gets on any of our three debates on

Skype. It is your chance to give your views on Twitter or phone.

Since last year, the law requires Since last year, the law requires

that certain immigrants marrying British citizens should learn

English before coming here. Plain racism or common sense?

The government's in the dock this The government's in the dock this

week over a law making thousands of immigrants speak English before they

come to the UK. The charges, this is racist, and denies people a right to

a family life. Their accuser, mother of six,

Rashida Chapti. She is British, her husband of 37 years lives in India.

And can't settle with her in the UK because he doesn't speak English.

The government, though, says it is vital newcomers speak the language.

As it helps Britain's many different cultures get along together. A

significant number of new people arriving in neighbourhoods, perhaps

not able to speak the same as those living there, on occasions

not wanting or even being willing to integrate. That has created a kind

of discomfort and a disjointedness in some neighbourhoods.. Does

forcing people to speak English before they come smack of

colonialism? The law falls mostly on India and Pakistan, who marry

spouses from their home country but doesn't apply to people coming from

the EU. Is that unfair? Or is it helpful for immigrants to already

speak English before they come here? It makes it easier for them to find

jobs and fit into the community. The level required is pretty basic. I

live in Southall. Is the government being racist by

keeping families apart because one partner doesn't speak English? Or is

it more important that the UK has a common tongue to give us common

Jenni, what do you think? I think it Jenni, what do you think? I think it

is absolutely crucial that they learn to speak English. You can't

function properly if you cannot communicate within an environment.

That is the question for the text vote, should we insist immigrants

speak English? If you think we should:

. Donal, you are an Irish immigrant. . Donal, you are an Irish immigrant.

What do you think? I am from Dublin. When I arrived in London as a

22-year-old, I joked in the bars that English was my second language.

Was it? No, it wasn't. But I have been accused of it being my

language many times. The great joy of international city and a

multi-cultural celebration of nationalities and great

international world we live in today is that we do arrive in France

bad English, with bad French and we struggle. So I think it is rather

Stalinist to insist this. You lose interaction, communication. And I

think by all means when arrive in the country, make the effort. I

acknowledge that. But to insist should be able to speak English

beforehand, if it was on us, we wouldn't travel. That is an

interesting point. If this was something that France, for instance,

or Spain introduced for Brits travelling to live the good life

there. It would be terrible. Absolutely terrible. I hate to

but in a way I do. I think the idea of insisting you learn to speak a

language before is probably a little slightly fascist, I would have said.

If you are going to come and make your life in another country, you

will work in that country, you will be part of the culture of that

country and you will be a useful member of society, you have to

to speak the language. You have to learn to speak the language. I am

sure that particular guy would probably learn to speak the language

quite well. What I am concerned about is there are people who

lived in this country for 20, sometimes 30 years and still cannot

speak a world of English. That can't be good for them. Jenni, what about

this issue about it prevents people having family life? James says this

citizen from India, who can't currently come because he can't

speak, read or write English, he might learn when he is here.

Preventing him coming stops family having a proper marriage.

There is certain phrases that are used a lot now, that get absolutely

right up my nose. Things like, for example, us discussing at the

beginning that is it racist they have to learn a language. As

the only brown person here present, qualified to talk about experiencing

racism, that is just an absolute nonsense. I want the Polish people

to speak language, the Latvians and the Indians, everybody to speak

English. I think that you. The whole world in fact. It isn't just a

colour issue. No. We are talking about it - they are saying is it

racist that you have to learn English. Of course it isn't racist.

It is practical common sense. It applies particularly because it

doesn't apply to EU countries, it applies to people predominantly from

India, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Therefore, gives rise to the

accusation that it is racist. One of the problems, Susanna, it is wishing

to keep yourself to yourself. That is a problem that a lot of

who come from a different who come from a different background

and culture to the one in the West have. You will find most men

speak the language or have a job, integrate, a lot of women will stay

at home and won't mix with anybody. That's the problem I think that we

need to address. Part of the problem is ghetto basically. A mate of mine

is 47, he grew up in Birmingham. He honestly says - from an Irish

family, a great Brummie accent, the first English man I met was aged 11.

At that stage in Ireland, or Birmingham, the Catholic

Birmingham, the Catholic priests were Irish, schools were Irish. The

first Englishman he met was a banker. Extraordinary but I think

I used to think of Pakistani families, high wife comes from - her

dad was Pakistani. I can see how they develop their villages from

Lamour and became a part of London or up and down the country. That

odd until I heard my mate who developed the same thing. People do

break out. Brits go abroad and live in enclaves. Can you speak French?

No. Badly. James has a house France, has for 25 years. Why have

you not learned French. I am not there long enough. If I am there for

a while... You go every four weeks. We had this conversation. Also, too,

the life in which you - the environment where you do most

your functioning is here of the speak the language. When I went to

China, I learnt my hello before I got on the plane. I was going to

live in France. First thing I started doing was trying to learn

French. I learned a couple of words Ola. That's Spanish. Wherever I am

We have to say people travel. We have to say people travel.

going to live in France tore work, to make my entire life there,

would be speaking the language. would have to speak the language.

Carry on. When you are struggling at an older age, it is more difficult

to learn. Children pick language without thinking about it.

The other unfortunate thing... This individual is in his 50s, he is not

a young man. In that case, he will have to work hard. If he is coming

here to live the whole time and people are only speaking English

him, he will pick it up quickly. The other problem is that everybody in

the world speaks English. That is a problem for us learning other

languages. Patrick Hayes is co-founder of Spiked website. One of

the issues is this runs the risk of leaving people ghettoised if they

not know the language before they come. Is that a real risk? I think

the real risk is we lack confidence in the British way of life and

British values are, that will allow people to be assimilated no Britain.

I am nervous using this term racist I am nervous using this term racist

policy. The idea of racism is bandied around too much around

Patrick, as you are making your Patrick, as you are making your

point, we are losing your sound. I wonder if we can tweak your mok

phone slightly and come back to us. You are nervous about using the word

racist because? I am nervous about using the words racism because

effectively what this does is close down debate. We saw in the run-up to

the election last year when Gillian Duffy made points to Gordon

she was dismissed as being a big today woman who shouldn't be

in the debate. I am nervous about that language. At the same time,

what we have here is a couple together for 37 years, they have six

children together. They are prevented from living together,

spending their 50s and 6 offices together in the UK because of what I

think is basically a bureaucratic, misguided approach to immigration

policy. I think Patrick is right here. You caught it right, the

mention of immigration debate. For over 20 years, it has been excluded,

otherwise, we are in the image of Enoch Colin Powell and rivers of

blood. You make a valid point there. There is a confidence in the English

welcoming travellers. If you are speaking broken English to

in London, they will be engaging loving you. In Paris, it is

different. It smacks of a political answer to the Conservatives who put

this in to answer - they have arrived, they are in power. They

want to give sop to that immigration debate. First of all, think about...

Who is calling this racist? It is an issue raised by the barrister in the

case, there may be an issue of racial discrimination. We have a

representative of Migration Watch. You came from Turkey not speaking

any English at all. It is unfair to split families up, isn't it, because

one person can't speak the language? I came from Cyprus actually, not

Turkey. Although my name the Turkish. I didn't arrive here in the

mid-50s. My spairpts spoke some English. I wish I did. I remember

vividly not being able to speak it, not being able to participate in

what was going on around me. I it is essential that some

should be spoken. We are not talking about degrees in language

are talking about a very basic English. I would argue it

important to have it even higher, at a higher level than it is at

moment. Even if that means that a family is kept apart? This couple

have six children. They have been married for almost 40 years. Is

there not some injustice there? Look, this is not something that the

Tories have brought in, as Donal just said. It is widely accepted. It

just said. It is widely accepted. It follows on partly from the rights

that we remember in 2001 in places like Oldham. It was that reason that

led to the report which made this recommendation. I think language is

the glue that holds all societies together and it is absolutely

necessary that people have some language, some English when

arrive here. Chris Taylor is a specialist English teacher. Does it

promote integration when people learn English? Donal's first point

when we opened the programme was well made. Forcing people to learn

English rarely works. Adults learn best when they are in the country

where the language is spoken, they are motivated, where they can

We know migrants and refugees are We know migrants and refugees are

highly motivated, they want to in the UK. Indeed, 187,000 adults

learned English last year in classes. The vast majority of them

paid for their classes. The motivation is there, of course it

makes sense. But it has to come people themselves, and in a

situation where they can use the English language on a day-to-day

basis. Demands exceeds supply. We have more people wanting to learn

English classes here than we have classes available.

James, when people arrive, they to do it. Absolutely. Perhaps this

idea that there are all sorts of people who don't want to is a myth?

There are lots of people who here already who have come here

would would like to be able or families encourage them not to speak

the English. I don't know. This guy in his 50s obviously he isn't

somebody I presume got married to come into the country. They have

been married for almost 40 years. I find it interesting that a lot of

Indian people speak English there are so many Indian languages,

I believe, that English is one that draws a lot of them together. Jenni,

is this a prejudice against poor backgrounds? If you are wealthy

enough to afford the classes, that's final. Is that the message we are

sending out? No. Because in most schools in other countries now, you

can learn English. If you are an adult, you can go to the local

school and learn English. I to be clear that it is not that I

think - you can move here, you can keep eating your same food, wear the

same clothes, you can listen to same music, you can live together.

don't care. That's fine. But I don't like it that so much in

environment where so much of our money is being cut and

all of that, I go into my doctor's surgery and there will be four

interpreters in there. Because of people who need help getting their

cases explained. We are spending a lot of money because people do not

speak enough English to make themselves understood. That's

actually a very big problem. Of course, I think this woman

have her husband, that is lovely, all of that. That's not the general

point. It is isolationist to are spending money on this, you are

forgetting the wealth brought in by immigrants, some of those who arrive

here. As we heard there actually invest in business. Why would you

expect to live in this country and not speak the language. You are

mistaking the point. The argument is making a requirement before you come

into the country. That I think is extreme. That is the point. Here is

the thing. Listen. It is rational and normal that people learn

they are here. The problem is... You should have rudimentary English

before they come in. Sqer too keen to help people bring and in a myriad

of interpreters to write things in all languages you can think of. You

get a form now, you will find all the other languages on the back.

Communication is important, do that? Of course it is. They

should make an effort. I don't that you need to be speaking the

Queen's English before you get the country. I wouldn't be here,

neither would Donal. There should be a six-month period and then you take

some sort of exam. You are able to navigate your way around town,

navigate your way around town,-and-a-half gate your way in

the doctor, have a job interview. If not, go back to where you came from.

Here are viewers' comments. We have had an e-mail from Gloria: I am from

outside the EU and professional who wants to obtain British citizenship.

I have to sit a test. Why should I have to do this when I can

communicate? Rocks Anna says: I am Romanian and of course speaking

English since 14. I am Spocked to see how many immigrants do not

English. Final thought, Donal? I think that

making it obligatory, that it is wrong. I think also it denies the

fact that most visitors want learn the language. It is

economic benefit because it creates all the English schools. We hear it

is an economic motivator. That is the text, should we insist

You have toe minutes before the poll Picture this, you are walking down

Picture this, you are walking down Picture this, you are walking down

You have toe the road, a group of hoodies mug

old lady and run off. What would you do? Go after them, offer to be

witness? Maybe the right thing to do, Donal MacIntyre who has seen

few crimes reckons we should by.

There is no place in our society for There is no place in our society for

the Good Samaritan. If you see a crime happening, don't intervene,

don't offer to be a witness. I walk the mean streets, it is me job to

look and testify. But to my wife all those close to me, I will say

this. Kill off those Good Samaritan instincts for your own good and the

well-being of your family. Until the police and courts can

protect you, until your community can support you, then I say to all

those have-a-go heros, retire, you will not be looked after, thanked or

protected. All promises of protection in the

courts from judges and outside from the police are limp and empty. The

effort it takes to be good, to honest, to stand up and to do the

right thing is so weighty, so onerous that the choice is taken

away. There is no room for the Good

Samaritan. You are abandoned, you are on your own.

If you have witnessed a crime and If you have witnessed a crime and

intervened or walked on, get in touch on Skype. You can join the

conversation on Twitter, text or e-mail.

Donal, your film there inspired by Donal, your film there inspired by

something that happened to you? I am an investigative jurpift and exposed

hooligans. Ten years later I am in bar with my wife. She had a brain

tumour, was going for a scan the next day. She is having a quiet

drink, preparing for this. I am approached by a group of people, who

knew the person I put inside. I was beaten up, she intervened, she got

beaten up. And somebody was convicted last December for it. But

the point of it is nobody - very people gave evidence. We were

abused, I was accused of starting fight with ten men. Only one man was

convicted. It is me job to testify, my wife who gave evidence from

behind the screen was verbally assaulted, intimidated. She came

and said: I wish I never reported the crime. I as a journalist, it

my job tow testify and give evidence. I was shocked I was

intimidated as a witness in this court case beforehand. I felt that

the police let us down. We got "no" security. They pulled security away

from us. In the court, the judge offered me scant protection,

afterwards, offered no It is like this, we have lived this.

My wife said she would walk on by. It is a terrible indictment that

Good Samaritan is dead. Walk on and it is the forces of law and

order who killed it off. Because it is not worth it. Jenni, would this

put you off? Absolutely not. My sympathies are absolutely with you

and your wife. But I could not walk away. I couldn't do it. For me, I

think that it is a spirt Tewell crime. If I walk away, and leave

somebody in trouble, that I am no better than the person who has

committed the crime. Nowadays mobile phones, I have like a whole

raft of things that I do. When I see things going wrong. First of all, I

always make sure I stand far enough way, they cannot catch me, I

immediately start shouting at the top of my lugs, to stop the person.

Hey, are you OK? You stop that. take out the mobile phone and

it up and say I am filming this, scram. This is when you witness

what? When I witness people other people. Or attacking other

people. I am always right in there. I don't mean right in there like

hauling somebody off. I mean in there like: You are being watched, I

am calling for help. How many times has this happened? I am always a big

one saying I am filming you. Probably maybe six or seven times. I

have a child... Where do you live? I want to avoid the area. No. It

not where I live. Good. The thing I have done in other countries.

have a teenage son. If God somebody hald to my son and I knew

that the last thing he saw was group of people standing there

whilst someone hurt him, I would just be breast. I would rather that

I try to help and something to me, him say: My mother got killed

trying to help trying to help than me not. James? I

would like to explore. I can understand what Donal says. But,

know, and Donal will admit this, am sure. When you see something

happening like that, your I am sure would be you would help.

If you saw Jenni being beaten up in the street, would you walk on by? It

is what I do. The prize society is imposing is so huge. What are the

police and judges do when people are heckling in court? Why are they not

locked up? I tell you why. they are so inyou areed and

decenttised, it becomes a game. A game the police play. We have

stop that. They sit in court. When the Milly Dowler story broke, I

lived through that, I terrible things in court and

suggested I would start a fight with ten when my wife has a brain tumour.

Where were the Good Samaritans we needed them? Everybody ran

cover. Nobody worthered to help. 30 people, nobody helped. All the

witnesses disappeared. How did make you feel? It was in Hampton

court and it has closed down. Good. There were so few witnesses on

CCTV, that the jury wrote a to the judge to say where are

the witnesses? That's the point. Because they have run for cover. The

reason is the price is so high. Are you not sending same message now? I

am making the point, right. I have walked the mean streets, I intervene

and would always do that. But I am saying the victims... You are

telling other people not to. Because the victims of people who have

the right thing, they have been abused. They become victims of

society. You have to be very careful. If Jenni is sitting there

with her mobile phone, the guy is nuts and sees her, he is likely to

kill her. I suggest... No. You always - one of the first. People

don't care about the law. There is running distance. You won't outrun

them. In the courts, protected by judges, protected by police. Use

your energies to sort that system, don't use your energies to make

decent people... Let's go to a woman from Witness Confidence. There is a

lack of confidence in the court system if you are a witness. Yes.

That is why we started our campaign. In the UK alone, there is 1.2

million incidents of street violence, according to

Crime Survey. In order to tackle that, we have to look at ways in

which we can engage citizens. The number of street violence crimes has

virtually been the same since 1997, despite policing resources

increasing. Without citizens working out ways in which to engage

with the justice system, and the police system, responding to those,

there is - we are not going to make a dent into this serious issue.

Jenni's point, sorry, that there are ways in which we engage

ways in which we engage and this debate shouldn't be polarised

between walking by and have-a-go hero is important. We can

take pictures with our camera phones, we can call for the police,

we can tend to the victim. It important that we start to think

about how we can actively engage and be more confident in what we do.

Paul, you repeatedly called the police, didn't you, about harassment

and violence going on in your neighbourhood. You were the one who

ended up facing court. What happened? That is right. Basically,

it was back in 2005, myself and local shopkeeper carried out a

citizen's arrest on a youth, part of the gang terrorising the area for a

while. Initially, the boy begged us: Don't go to the police, I will

apologise to everyone. I will take you to the ringleader's house.

did that. Everything was discussed. Further apologies made. One other

member of the gang went away and phoned the police, gave him a

completely different story, which they didn't believe. They came

around, thanked us initially, everything was OK. Then the next day

I was arrested for child kidnap amongst other things, assault,

completely changed their story. I went through a 15-month court

ordeal. Spent a week in prison. The trial collapsed and the boys were

basically proven to be liars. They admitted they lied in court. Paul,

would it stop you intervening again? It wouldn't stop me, no. I would go

about it a different way, if happened again. I would say to

people it has been shown in recent years that the police don't really

have the public foremost in their minds, they are enforcing government

policy. Gather your own information, your own evidence and go to the MP.

Don't give them any excuses. They have to change the policies. As you

listened to Paul's story, what do you any? Both Paul's and Donal's

story are terrible. That is one of the things that we are campaigning

for the judicial system and police system to, first of all, address the

witness experience, ways in they can address it are, firstly, by

the police taking video statements. When you end up in court, it becomes

less of a memory game. The second point is part of the legal aid fund

going to victims and witnesses in serious crimes so they are

supported. It is interesting, the point you say there. After the Milly

Dowler - it is not just about witnesses but the

going into correspond and being abused by this club of barristers

who drink and been in the same chambers was the judge. This cozy

cartel. When the DPP came out and the minister of justice said yes,

the head of the Surrey constabulary said we should should do something

about this. You hypocrites. Anybody knows you are in a thankless task

being a witness. On any crime. The presumption is that we can have a go

and harass you. The witness experience is absolutely appalling

in courts, not just about me being involved in a crime or more

interventionist. Ordinary people are harassed and their wilt

is appalling. What Donal said is right. I remembered we were living

in Yorkshire. One Sunday morning, don't know, mental, I don't know, a

bloke knocking on the back door. My wife went to see what was going on,

she yelled. This bloke was strange. My son and I went out, marched him

down and put hip over down and put hip

down and put him over the gate. I phoned the police. He was sitting

there hulg abuse outside. I phoned the police. It is a Sundays, we are

busy, no-one around. OK. If he comes back, we will do this. Within ten

15 minutes, a portly policeman came staggering up the road, did you

threaten to beat somebody up. He over there and if he comes back, I

will. The policeman chatted, we didn't think any more about it. Two

hours later, two coppers come to house, knock on the door, ask

they can talk to my wife, my son and myself. Could we talk to you

separate rooms. They treat us as we are criminals. The upshot

was thought very happy. They took to the police station. I proceeded

to wind them up for being so - I don't actually feel that the

are doing a bad job generally. From time to time, like Donal, I

been involved in criticising people who think they are above the law,

make threats against you, the police come around, special part of the

police. Sort out your protection whatever. They do a dangerous job. I

don't want to sound as if we are having a go at the police. Some

them do a dangerous and thankless job. I talk to the police.

Witnesses, my view is to say this is ordinary members of the public, I am

intervene because it is my nature. My we would never go to that court

experience again. Many police officers privately say given the

choice between walking on by and intervening and being innocent

parties of crimes, watching and reporting, doing your best as

ordinary punter, good citizen, they say, walk on by. As a human being,

how do you do that? How do you see someone in absolute pain, distress,

fear? The first thing you think when you look at them is that could

be my mother, that could be my child. You ask that of the 30

who watched me and my wife getting beaten up? I would like to. Why

don't people intervening? We are society. The problem is - I am

concerned that you might put yourself in danger the way you are

talking. It is one thing that, quite often women feel they

won't get attacked. They will. How would your family feel if you got a

knife stuck into you because you intervened? I never get that close.

Tim joins us. Good morning to you. Tim from the surveillance group. You

witness crimes or potential crimes as part of your work. Do you

intervene? Never. I only employ ex-military personnel who

leaving the armed forces and for me. Without shadow of a doubt,

they are horrified by the acts of violence that they see on the

streets of the UK. It is not major conurbations, it is towns, villages.

And the one thing that we have witnessed daily is that we have

become an intolerant nation, the slightest bit of provocation will

create a pack mentality approach to situations like this. I wouldn't

advocate anyone intervening. Thank you. So sorry to cut you off. We are

running short of time. I want to get to some of the viewers' e-mails

tweets. Barney: I am a have-a-go hero. I

would never do it again. When I intervened, I was arrested and was

threatened in court. DMH: I in the York 15 years ago, on a busy

street. Many people watched az I was beaten and mugged. And Paul says: As

a former military officer and former police officer, I can't walk on by.

It is in my nature to help. Jenni? I think as a decent human being, as a

member of society, you have an effort. I don't go in from with

both hands, touch anyone, grab anyone. Get your phone, start

shouting. A lot of the times - cases that I have intervened in are men

abusing women. Sweetie, are you OK? You, stop that. You shout and a lot

of times that makes people stop. You tell them you are calling for help.

You say: I am filming it and it makes them stop. You can continue

that debate on our website. Thank you for the guests on that

issue. Still to come on Sunday Morning

Live: When you make a will, who should be

the winners, your children, children star scing in Africa, maybe both,

what about the millions left to animal charities or

animal charities or pets? Barking mad or harmless reminder we are

nation of animal lovers? You can join in that discussion:

Keep voting in the text poll, should Keep voting in the text poll, should

Let's turn to our moral moments of Let's turn to our moral moments of

the week. This week of course we have seen the first funerals of

those who were murdered in Norway. For a nation in mourning, there has

been remarkably little talk about revenge. James. I don't know who you

would revenge that. You could execute the guy, it wont make

anybody feel that much better. My take on this is everybody say they

will hold their heads in their and say: We have To learn from this,

we must go forward. We won't learn anything from it. We might learn not

to lock up our one helicopter, not to put our special forces on holiday

all together in the same month. We might learn that. But, sadly, things

like this, like 9/11, like 7-7, things happen to us and we will

never wipe away those problems happening. We might have a knee-jerk

reactionment we might say we will ban everybody doing this, ban them

doing that like we did after Dunblane, everybody having handguns,

now even our Olympic shooting have to go abroad to practise, which

seems ridiculous. If you wanted a gun for illegal purposes, I am sure,

Donal, we could find places to get them easily. There seem to be no

shortage of guns in our society. Banning them from people who want to

use is ridiculous. What we might be able to do, what revenge we

get is showing people that even though they commit these appalling

acts, they are not going to change the basic way human beings live

together, they can't ends. That might be it. That

to have been one of the feelings expressed in Norway. I wonder

whether there is anything that the former Prime Minister of Norway, now

chairman of the Nobel peace prize, when he says Europe's

to be more cautious when discussing multi-culturalism, more defence of

diversity, that Europe's leaders should not play with fire, that

terrorists are terrorists they are of any religionon or none.

R. I think that multi-culturalism R. I think that multi-culturalism

R. I think that multi-culturalism debate has been rung through. I

debate has been rung through. I debate has been rung through. I

R. I think thought the Norwegians handled it

very well. They didn't do a knee-jerk reaction and said we

not allow this one lone wolf, let's face it he does not represent

anything about Norwegian culture their thought process. It is so off

the scale and lunatic and insane what he did and his politics, that

basically I think we can park it away. Not try to think there is

something rational in this massacre that we can bring into a civilised

debate. Park it. It doesn't speak of anything other than something fringe

and flawed and damaged. What we can't do is say we will do this or

that and make sure this happens again. Tragedies throughout

man's time always happen. That's what I think is wonderful about the

way the Norwegians approached it. I was lucky enough to do travel

anything Norway. At first you wonder are they really cold people or are

they very solid, dignified people? One of the things I have been

humbled by watching the way they have reacted to this. If it

here, we would be screaming, we will ban this, stop that, blaming every

political party, it was their fault. The Norwegians were basically,

right, OK, you know what this is not going to change who we are. They

stood up even taller, stronger and said this is not going to change us.

The only problem they have is they can only put this guy in prison for

21 years or something. No. Because apparently there are a few

apparently there are a few instances where crimes against humanity, some

sort of phrase like that. They be able to nab him. Options there.

Allegedly, whatever. One of the other issues that we have been

grappling with morally it a number of weeks, hacking, more

evidence on that. One of the MPs has herself has been targeted by one

reporter over drug taking in youth. This is the MP who was on the

select committee grilling the Murdochs, who got an e-mail asking

her whether she ever did take drugs, to which she said highly probably.

Refreshing? Brilliant. It is saying I can't remember maybe because I

ingested drugs. The wonderful thing about her, she has written books.

She was one of the great sins was writing a novel during worktime.

What great writer didn't? She is a chick lit and may be great, I

haven't read it, how refreshing somebody lived a little bit. How

boring is it we get the career politicians from 11 through the

drifp, Labour Party, this is what they want to do, have no experience

of real life. They go from Oxbridge to add boy's club, Westminster. And

how dull and boring. She has been refreshing and engaging. She has

been the star of the new Parliament. Jenni? She had to apologise to Piers

Morgan or wrongly stating he had been open about... I watched it. I

am a huge fan. I think show might Prime Minister. Louise. When she

said that I thought oh, no, you shot yourself in the foot there. I

it is ye amongst us without sin cast the first stone. I think if you get

into the situation where everybody has to be squeaky clean, never do

anything wrong, um end up with politicians similar to what you get

in America, these faceless, gormless people who get cranked out of a

machine. Because anybody with a and with a history is afraid to run.

Good on her. Before we get criticised for turning into a branch

of her fan club, let's remind viewers that you have been voting in

the text pom. We asked should we insist immigrants speak English. The

poll is closing now. Do not text, your vote will not count. You could

still be charged for it. We bring you the result at the

You don't need to be an animal lover You don't need to be an animal lover

to have been horrified by images of pigs kicked and burned with

cigarettes in an abattoir. Much the same greeted claims of unnecessary

slaughter of calves in milk production for

production for chock. How far should our sympathy and generosity for

Secret filming of baby cows killed Secret filming of baby cows killed

this week because they were wrong sex. It caused moral anger.

Another example of our reputation as Another example of our reputation as

a nation of animal lovers. How far should that love go? This week it

was revealed that the late designer, Alexander McQueen, left �50,000 in

his will to his dogs. As well as 100,000 each to Battersea dogs home

and the blue cross. That is almost a quarter of a million pounds left

his pets and animal charities. It raises the question: Is it right to

leave money to animals instead humans? Es

Animal lovers argue you can Animal lovers argue you can

responsible for your pets so you should look after them in your

women. Millions of us are doing so. Others would say bequeathing

to pets, particularly if you have human relatives, is selfish. Leaving

money to pet charities and sanctuaries may be morally worthy

but shouldn't that money go to starving humans around the world

instead? Sometimes pets are our best friends. If we choose to leave our

money to make sure they are comfortable when we are gone, can

that be wrong? Are humans always more important than animals?

Have you had to share your Have you had to share your

inheritance with pets? Are you planning to leave your money to

animals rather than people? You can join in this morning.

We are a nation of animal lovers, it We are a nation of animal lovers, it

is natural that translates into our wills? What makes me sad, I know

that isn't what you asked me, but the fact is that you will find

dozens of people who will walk by and watch somebody being beaten up,

not do anything, those same people if someone was kicking a dog,

everybody would stop them. I think that's an interesting reflection on

our society. I love animals, I love Oscar. I am not leaving my money to

Oscar, my cat. Why not? Don't go there. Here we go. It absolutely

breaks my heart. It does, that we live in a world where getting beyond

the starving children around world coined of thing, people who

want to be artists, writers, young people from inner cities who can't

afford to go to Oxford or Cambridge, whatever, if you don't like your

family and you don't want to your money to them, leave it to

another human being, for heaven's sake. You are doing it. You are

leaving it to the dog. The dog isn't filling in the paperwork for his

bank account, he is leaving it to somebody. In many ways, the money

will percolate down to humans. Do you think that is the best use of

your money? It is your money, do what you want. I am not

they are living deserving the of the day. Many people who get

benefit from legacies, really? You don't frz to leave it to your

family. Do something useful for other human beings. What does that

say about us as a society? It is how we look after animals speak volumes.

Yes. I am not saying don't leave money. You can leave some money to

the animal charities. To leave all your money to Fido, that is insane.

Alexander McQueen left 50,000 to his dogs, a quarter of a million in all.

He had a �16 million fortune, which goes to charities and other

of his family. James, you have how many dogs? Three. How much

will you leave them? I won't have any money when I snuff it. Would you

leave it to them? I would prefer to leave it to my dogs probably than

lots of human beings I can think of. My children may get a little bit,

there is anything left and after the dogs if they are there or

whatever animals I have at that time. I have to tell you that if

there was - I better be careful. If there was somebody I didn't know,

one of my dogs in a really terrible position, and I could only save one,

I don't have to tell you what the outcome would be. You are talking

about if there was a perilous situation where you could choose

between saving a human life or animal life, would you choose the

animal? I think I probably would, yes. James, James, James. He made

the perfect statement. I don't human beings very much sometimes.

That is at the root of the problem. A lot of people nowadays prefer - it

is easier to love an animal than love a human being. If you love a

human being, there is fear of rejection, loss, etc. You love an

animal, it is unconditional. The people who don't like animals

usually behave in exactly the same way to human beings, it has been my

experience to see. Obviously, there is a human being and I would

probably save both of them. My dogs, I have had dogs ever since I can

remember. Various other animals as well. Even chickens I got attached

to. Chickens are lovely. They are not just dumb animals. They

become... I understand that. This become... I understand that. That is

not the question. That is not the issue. Do you put animals over

people? Let's speak to someone who went through that experience. This

doctor won a legal battle of four years because your parents left the

family farm, worth a lot of money, to the RSPCA and you were left with

nothing. How on earth did affect you? It was a shock. It left

me with a great sense of betrayal. would have preferred if we father

had said what it was. For me, the issue is INAUDIBLE. They are keeping

secrets in my families. I asked my father what is going on there? The

reason is that they are not proud of what they are doing. In our society,

the idea of leaving things on to our family is endemic. It is in the

Bible about inheritance. INAUDIBLE Our own society talks about passing

INAUDIBLE . I thought it was up to INAUDIBLE . I thought it was up to

us who we leave it to. Why tell us what we should do. There is a saying

if you don't give somebody something to hold for you, don't expect

the end. You shouldn't have an expectation that your parents will

leave you everything that you have. Some people shouldn't be left

anything, to be honest. What we have here is not just that Chris tone's

parents put the animal charity in front of Christine, but she was left

with a sense of betrayal. Show was left with another legacy, which was

a desperately emotional response. How does the money... Right. Having

the money doesn't cure that. I understand why she feels that way.

Her parents betrayed her. Having her money doesn't mean they didn't

betray her. It is interesting. we going to ban people from leaving

leg sigs to animals? No. should be a cap on it, a �50,000 cap

on it. A cap. Clare is from Battersea dogs home. You rely

the legacy of people's wills, sometimes millions. What if

was a cap of 50 grand? I think if there was a cap of �50,000,

Battersea wouldn't exist. We are totally reliant on the legacy income

we get every year. Batter sea is 150 years old. We started with a �500

legacy. In that 150 years, because of that initial legacy, we have

helped 3 million animals. Those 3 million animals, as Donal said

earlier, translates into 3 million families and groups of people

will benefit from coming into contact with those animals. When

people say you shouldn't put animals before people, you would say

actually it is not just the animals who benefit? It is not just the

animals that benefit. I have worked in charities for 25 years. I have

worked in people's charities, children's charities, young people,

disability charities and animal charities. I have had these

discussions with donors from every charity I have worked in about

this this charity, why not another one,

why people, why not animals, why animals, why not people. It is

individual choice and it has to be left to people decide how their

hard-earned money is distributed after their death. Sue is an animal

rights activist with eight cats and two rats. People come first, don't

they, Sue? My animals are part of the family. I think everyone agrees

that. When you take on an animal, you take on a responsibility for

that animal. When I die, I want my animals to be looked after and

consequently, would I leave money. I wouldn't leave all my money

to my animals. I will leave some my family. And I think the case of

the woman whose family left all the money, all the farm to the RSPCA is

extreme. We have to just keep it some sort of balance. I don't

the idea of making a cap. Jails, we live in a world of extremely needly

people. In fact, the British public have shown it is generous at a time

when there is a famine, people given millions to that. So we are

talking about a drop in the ocean. am sorry. That's a kind of different

argument in a way. The British people have given enormous

quantities of money to Emergency Committee. That amount of

money doesn't seem to have stopped a lot of these people starving to

death. Maybe it is time we had another rational look at how we

with areas of the world where it obviously isn't going to sustain

life. Maybe we have to work out these countries - I don't know. It

is a bigger issue. It is a different issue. I don't think - look, it is

entirely up to you. I can is a lot of starvation, a lot of

things going on in the world, most of us far too much in the west, they

have too little in other parts. That is a different argument. Let's say,

for example, that you take ten underprivileged young people and you

put them through university. Ten underprivileged young people are

going to affect probably 20 people immediately connected with them.

don't know how much money we are going to leave. That is 200 people.

If you talk about the ripple effect, animals make you feel better, Oscar

cheers me up. You are helping people. What is he going to do

the dog? Named after Louis Spence. You are talking about a dog. Peter

says: My son and daughter in law live in America. I hear little from

them, don't receive cards, although I send cards from them. Should they

expect my estate? I would like to be nice for me. I take my love and

responsibility seriously and take good care of them. I want to

they are cared for. Good. I am sure of the legacy of that debate will

a vigorous discussion on the social media pages. You can find it

website. Your text poll votes are in. An

astonishing result. We asked should we insist immigrants speak English?

Here is what you told us. 97% of those of you who texted said "yes",

only 3% said we should not. I surrender. What did you say? I

understand where people are coming from. It is not in the generosity of

the travelling and the English and British to impose these rules and

insist that they speak English. Jenni? I have to say even though I

agree with the concept, I am shocked that it was 97%

that it was 97%. Absolutely shocked. James, are you shocked? Not at all.

People have a feeling we are becoming a goato

becoming a goatoised society. People feel that is one of the ways we

doing it. It might not be reality but that is why I think they

like that. Thanks to all of you who have taken part today. And also

my guests in the studio, Jenni Trent Hughes, Donal MacIntyre and James

Whale. Don't text or call the phone lines.