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Two women a week are killed by their partners. Many more are | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
beaten and abused. Would lives be saved if we had the right to expose | :00:16. | :00:26. | |
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Good morning. Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. In the age of | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
internet dating, should the law let us know if our partner beat up | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
their ex? To tarot cards, mystics, | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
clairvoyants, is there anything in what they say? What do you think | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
about them asking for money? Not a lot says one of our guests. I think | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
it should be illegal. Card readers, tarot readers or astrologers to | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
charge for their services. They bayed, brayed and point scored | :01:08. | :01:14. | |
in Parma this week but should we be proud of our political leaders? -- | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
Parliament. Rosie Millard was the BBC Arts | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
correspondent but now she writes on everything from art to dragging her | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
four children around the world. In Collins is a late night radio | :01:26. | :01:33. | |
host. His latest book is called 87 people are like to slap. | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
And it is a miracle psychologist Donna Dawson got here at all. She | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
is usually glued to the sofa at This Morning dispensing advice on | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
relationships. You can challenge any of our guests on webcam, Skype | :01:47. | :01:57. | |
:01:57. | :02:04. | ||
Clare Wood's dad thinks his 36- year-old daughter would still be | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
alive if she had known about her boyfriend's violent past. In her | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
name he now wants eclairs law to give women the right to the | :02:13. | :02:23. | |
:02:23. | :02:34. | ||
knowledge about a violent past a -- The rise of online dating mean more | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
relationships begin between strangers. Should women going into | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
a new relationship be able to find out if their partner has violence | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
in their past? With this large invasion of privacy outweigh the | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
statistically small amount of abuse? But abusers often have form. | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
One study found that half of all attackers were involved in another | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
incident within three years. couldn't my daughter be told that | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
this Laddie had a past? Michael's daughter, Clare, met | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
George Appleton, a man with a criminal record of violence against | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
women. He killed Clare in 2009. A law which would have alerted Clare | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
took his past convictions may have saved her life, but should the | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
police intervened so directly into our personal life. Such a law would | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
not allow men to repent and reform. Once convicted, a man would always | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
be considered a danger and some women could use the law to make | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
false allegations against innocent men. We already ask for criminal | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
records checks for those in contact with our children. Should we now | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
ask the law to intervene in our adult relationships? | :03:52. | :04:00. | |
Rosie, should we? I think it would be impossible to say that this | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
would stop violence against women. Many women are attracted to men | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
knowing already about their past. The fact that we have the police | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
checks about people who work with children has not necessarily stop | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
attacks on children. I do not think you would be able to stand it up, | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
to be honest. The that is the question for our text vote this | :04:26. | :04:36. | |
:04:36. | :04:41. | ||
morning. Do we have a right to know For full terms and conditions visit | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
visit bbc.co.uk/sundaymorninglive. We will show you how you voted at | :04:44. | :04:51. | |
the end of the programme. Donna? With the greatest respect, Rosie, I | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
think that is a simplistic view to take. I think we have to start | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
somewhere, particularly with the Wild West frontier that is the | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
internet, help women, guide them and give their someone -- give them | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
somewhere to go. I think we all have a right to know if someone has | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
a violent past. Yes, they do have a right and some rights are stronger | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
than others. Hour right not to have our feathers ruffled is not as | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
strong as the right as social animals to keep someone from a | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
torrential abuse or even death. this is a balance of rights, | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
someone who needs to know a crucial piece of information and somebody | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
who might not want that information out? You cannot legislate for | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
lunatics, it is as simple as that. It is a bad law. I would like | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
information on dodgy neighbours, weird girl friends, if you like, | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
what people who live down the road. We could call for a similar | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
approach for all manner of things in life. Our democracy does not | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
work on that basis. The man who attacked and murdered Clare, I | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
think that his previous conviction was reasonably minor, I do not | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
think there was any sense that he would have been held up. Let's find | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
out from Clare's father, Michael Brown, who joins us. Michael, talk | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
to us about why you think Clare would have been protected if she | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
had known that George, her ex- boyfriend, had been violent towards | :06:27. | :06:36. | |
other women in the past? If I can just intercede for the fellow who | :06:36. | :06:43. | |
was speaking before, if he was standing in my shoes for 10 minutes, | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
he would neither have the opinion that he has, nor would he deny it | :06:47. | :06:57. | |
the women of this country another layer of protection. My daughter | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
gave this Laddie his marching orders and until such time, I had | :07:02. | :07:12. | |
:07:12. | :07:14. | ||
no idea that he was controlling or abusing my daughter. I don't know | :07:14. | :07:22. | |
if the law would have helped Clare. Michael, I wonder if I can ask, | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
what was George's history of violence? George had three | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
restraining orders against other women. He had already done six | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
months for breaking a restraining order and he had done 3.5 years for | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
following a lady from Manchester it to Newcastle, following -- breaking | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
into her house and holding her at knifepoint for eight hours. Do you | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
think, is Clare had known all of that information that she would not | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
have struck up a relationship with him at all or managed to get out | :08:01. | :08:10. | |
earlier? There are conjectures in that one. I believe my daughter was | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
not stupid and she would have been out there -- out of there in a | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
heartbeat. I was led to believe the criminal record he had was to do | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
with driving offences. Ian, it is another layer of protection and it | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
is hard to argue. To pick up on Michael's point, of course I have | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
no idea what it feels like to be Michael's shoes and nobody could, | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
how could they? But it does come back to the point that was made at | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
the beginning, it is called bad law, we do not tend to make laws in this | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
country based on the most seductive case. Otherwise, we would be in | :08:51. | :08:59. | |
this never-ending circle to -- of litigation. From a fellow's point | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
of view, does that mean every guy could be criminally checked to see | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
if they have something in their past? Where does that leave | :09:06. | :09:13. | |
innocent guise? It is impossible to have this law with the internet, | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
with people meeting, how many friends on Facebook de actually | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
know? That brings up a huge vitiate about where we start -- that brings | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
up a huge issue about where we start. The thing is, there are no | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
aspects on the internet to protect anybody. A psychopath's field day. | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
They can go on there, pretend to be as normal as can be and cover-up | :09:39. | :09:47. | |
their past. There are violent women out there, not as many. It is more | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
important than your feathers being ruffled. If you'd be on the phone | :09:51. | :09:59. | |
to the police every three minutes. When? Before the first day it? | :09:59. | :10:07. | |
can hear that Michael wants to come back in. Excuse me, this is the | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
level of discussion that I have come across all the way through the | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
introduction of this law. There are people for it, there are people | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
against, attack the end of the day, there are many clever people in | :10:23. | :10:31. | |
this country who can fit this law in without interfering, we are | :10:31. | :10:40. | |
talking about something in the region off... To protect women from | :10:40. | :10:47. | |
that 25, eyelid suggest that unless you were in a domestic violence | :10:47. | :10:57. | |
:10:57. | :10:59. | ||
situation, that was denied to year. -- that was denied to you. If he | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
was under police suspicion, that should be volunteered and you | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
should be able to ask. I don't want this bandied about. I want men, | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
women protected in this country from violent partners. Not just | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
women. There are gay couples in this country and the best of luck | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
to them, heterosexual, it makes no difference. I want partners who | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
were in trouble to be given access to information of past violence. | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
Michael, I really appreciate your time this morning and thank you | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
very much indeed for coming on the programme to discuss what is | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
obviously a very painful issue for you still. I'm going to talk to | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
Hazel Blears now, because she is the former Home Office Minister who | :11:49. | :11:56. | |
also backs the introduction of this law. Hazel, is this about a women - | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
- or woman who lacked information or is this about a failure of the | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
police to protect someone who had already made numerous complaints | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
about this man? Good morning. Clare Wood was actually my constituent | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
and I do not pretend for a moment that this law would stop domestic | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
violence in its tracks, but what I do know, what happened to Clare, | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
the sequence of events with a man who had a very violent past, the | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
authorities knew that information but as the law stands now, they | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
were unable to share that with Clare. She did not have the choice, | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
she was not empowered to decide for herself whether she wanted to | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
continue that relationship. The whole point of this law is it is | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
not a fishing expedition on your first date, there will be checks | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
and balances in the system. When a woman or a man feels that perhaps | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
their partner's behaviour is starting to become abusive, they | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
could go to the police, the police could check all their records from | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
right across the country because they now have a national database. | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
Can I interrupt? If the woman's partner has begun to be abusive, is | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
there not an argument that that woman should be encouraged to | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
report it to police or to leave, that actually, in a lot of cases, | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
sadly, women whose partners become abusive, do not leave and they have | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
the information write their in their homes, the evidence that that | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
person is violent. Do they need other information? Of course they | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
did. Domestic violence is a complex set of issues. On average, a woman | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
is assaulted 30 times before they take action. I'm not pretending | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
that this law would solve all the problems but at the moment, the | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
police could have information, the council, the health service and | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
they are prevented from sharing that with the person who is | :13:51. | :13:58. | |
concerned. This is a matter of a woman or a man having the right. | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
Let me through this back into the studio. Clare already did go to the | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
police. Perhaps we should look at refuges for women who have an | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
abusive partner, homes for them to go to add a whole support system | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
which would have helped them once they raised the alarm. I don't | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
think it is about knowing about the past, it is dealing with the | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
present and Clare was aware that this man was very violent. If it is | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
a complex issue. Once a man begins to abuse, and that is why you have | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
to get the checks done early, women become so cowed and frightened and | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
threatened by their partner that they are terrified to leave. They | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
might think they can change this man, they will be in the first | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
flush of romantic love and they think, he has got a dodgy past but | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
I will forgive him that and carry on. Are we not missing the great | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
point here? Hazel is advocating the secret police. We hold a file that | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
anybody can access if they feel like it. Who gets the right to it. | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
Not if they feel like it. You can extend it all over the place. You | :14:59. | :15:09. | |
:15:09. | :15:11. | ||
can have it for noisy neighbours, We have become a spoilt society | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
where we believe we have so many rights. I have noticed that | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
criminals have more right than victims. That cannot be right. | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
mentioned refuges. Erin Pizzey set up the first women's refuge. Would | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
this help women even if they already know their partner is that | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
deserve? Yes, I think it would. I am all in favour of this because | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
the situation is dire, and domestic violence is academic. Let's | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
remember that hit it is not men and women while the real victims, the | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
children have no choices. I have just been dealing with a man who | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
had batted three women and is now one is for women. She has got three | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
small kids and she is planning to move in with him. Yes, first of all, | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
apart from anything else, if we have these checks and balances, | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
everybody has the information. My main problem is I want to make her | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
responsible for her choice. Once she knows she is with a violent | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
partner, I want her to take part in what other it is that will protect | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
the children. How can you know that he has batted previous partners but | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
she does not? Because I know because, as far as I am concerned, | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
I know a lot about his background. I have not actually talked to her. | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
I know about him. We have this problem with violent men. Let's not | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
leave them out of the equation. These men need a counselling | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
service. I remember many years ago are sitting on the couch, in a | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
group with Princess Anne, we were talking about more refuges for | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
women. Yes, they need that, but these men need help, and that is | :16:51. | :16:59. | |
often overlooked. They need to be treated. Women who consistently | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
make violent relationships, and there are many of them. This is | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
just about... I think it is impossible, it would be impossible | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
to enforce. How is this meant to work? You go to the local police | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
station? Before your first date? have just heard about a case where | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
a woman is about to move in with a man, she has three children. There | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
is information that this man has form. They are not going to tell | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
her. I do not know how she knows that information, it might be a | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
specific case. Often a friend of a friend knows information. When you | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
have a state law that steps in and allows people access to some kind | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
of database through turning up at the police station, phoning a | :17:45. | :17:52. | |
hotline, whatever it happens to be, it is completely unworkable. Erin? | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
Why is it that we are taking all the steps we can to stop | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
paedophiles having access to children but we let violent people | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
us and our children? Actually, we sort of marinate these children and | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
violence, and they grow up like that. But how far do we take that | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
kind of legislation? It could be applied in so many areas. If you | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
look at individual stories, they are clearly very seductive and | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
powerful. Because the children are innocent and cannot find these | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
things out for themselves, they cannot judge for themselves, a | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
small child, but an adult woman, should she be seen on the same | :18:32. | :18:41. | |
level as a small... Correct. small child? Sean, this is a new | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
way of meeting people, over the internet, it is still relatively | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
fresh, it is an charted territory, it requires new ways of regulating. | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
That is what this information is doing, it is the equivalent of your | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
friends tapping you on the shoulder and say, I would not go near him, | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
he is trouble. No, it is a containerisation of the atomisation | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
of society that we have seen with the CRB checks. -- continuation. | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
You create a default situation in which everybody distrusts everybody | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
else unless they are somehow cleared by the state. I disagree. | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
It mediates social relationships through the state. It produces the | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
same kind of effect as the French, Russian revolutionary regimes by | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
killing people at random. That is crazy, what... That is the most | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
stupid bit of crepe I have ever heard! We are social animals, we | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
are responsible for each other. We do not become a police stages | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
because we have a few safeguards! People have to have police checks | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
before they do a reading at a school, parents. Is that necessary? | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
What is the problem? If you have got nothing to hide, what is the | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
problem? Everything champs said seems to make perfect sense. It was | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
an extension of the point I was trying to make about the secret | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
police holding databases on people. How about a society which is too | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
liberal and everybody gets to carve Up everybody else and criminals get | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
to run loose because there are no checks on them? One final question, | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
what about second chances. Second chances for who? Four men who may | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
have made a mistake in the past. as a psychologist, I would say, | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
great, he has got up in debt counselling, because our lot of | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
them do not change. A lot of them need to be given the chance, but | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
they cannot be left to run wild on the internet, no way. Do you agree? | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
Do we have a right to know a partner's violent pass? That is our | :20:46. | :20:55. | |
:20:56. | :20:58. | ||
vote today. If you think we should You have around 20 minutes before | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
it closes. Now, if you have been affected by any of the issues we | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
have discussed, there links to organisations offering help and | :21:06. | :21:14. | |
advice on our website. -- there our links. | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
All of us affected by the terrible events in Norway this weekend, we | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
still have so much to learn about what this individual thought he was | :21:25. | :21:32. | |
doing when he murdered so many people on Saturday. Do we give some | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
sort of false authority, the end, to people who say they want to | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
explain themselves, explain their motivation? This chap says it was | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
an atrocious thing to have done. that very point, I have been | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
surprised by the police releasing a statement already, giving his | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
interpretation, giving it context, giving it some vague, rather crude | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
level of credibility in doing that. I am intrigued, on this particular | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
story, about the absence of the word terrorist, which does not seem | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
to be bandied about in the same way have seen with other similar | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
stories. We talk about a lone gunman, a fundamentalist, but the | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
worst terrorist does not seem to be in there very much. There are bad | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
people. Once in a while, these terrible stories from Dunblane to | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
Columbine to what we have seen here happen, and we can go around in | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
circles trying to explain the various reasons, the | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
interpretations, the psychological deficit in these people. We can | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
attempt to put some kind of intellectual gloss on it. Bottom | :22:36. | :22:43. | |
line, the world throws up, in the gene pool, some very bad people. | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
Donna, or is it helpful but we here this person's explanation for their | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
motivation? Or is it simply a heinous crime with no | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
justification? Should we even allow a justification to be heard? It is | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
both, but the fact that he did not shoot himself is quite interesting. | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
There is a lot we can learn from his so-called explanation, not that | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
we will accept it. What we are looking for is an insight into the | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
mind of somebody who is obviously mentally unstable and the efficient | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
and may have some clues in his background, his upbringing, his | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
contacts, his point of view that will help us to deal with things, | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
maybe preventing such a thing in a future. It may give us an | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
understanding that will lead us to think about where else we need to | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
look. This is a society that for years has been thought of as | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
peaceful, you know, quite complacent. We have seen a surge | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
and Scandinavian literature that has shown a dark underside to this | :23:43. | :23:49. | |
society, whey -- where there is a lot of things happening on the far | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
right. A lot of countries to have immigration issues need to look at | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
this and address it. He is kind of the apex of a whole subterranean | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
problem, where we are looking at somebody's whole upbringing as well | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
as their mental state of mind. Yes, we have things to learn. Rosie, | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
your thoughts? People are flailing as they try to explain how somebody | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
could do this. Especially in a country like Norway. It will be | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
very interesting to see what he says in court, how he can possibly | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
address is absolutely horrendous crime. I think that, you know, | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
there are similarities, it seems, to Dunblane. We know that from the | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
stuff that is already around online that he has written. It seems that | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
he has the same sort of feeling of being an outsider, that he was | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
against what he saw as a liberal elite pushing the country in a way | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
that he resented. He felt he did not belong. You know, he has this | :24:49. | :24:56. | |
quote from John Stuart Mill's about one man with faith as more force | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
than 100,000 people with interest. It is a misguided notion of some | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
sort of crusade, using Christianity as some sort of explanation for | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
what he has done. Well, obviously, we wait to hear what happens on | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
Monday, but there is something that people are finding very hard to | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
process. Meanwhile, an individual tragedy yesterday with the news | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
that Amy Winehouse was found dead. Now, he walked past Amy Winehouse's | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
flat regularly and had mentioned that there was not a time when | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
there were not paparazzi outside, waiting to see her. A friend of | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
mine who knew her reasonably well lived just around the corner, and | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
every time we walked past, there would be a pack of paparazzi out | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
there trying to get a picture try to get... I am not blaming the | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
paparazzi, that was part of what she did, part of what she did for a | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
living. It kind of goes with the job of being a celebrity, being a | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
rock star, whatever you want to call it. I think most of the time | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
she accepted that and went along with it, but it is interesting that | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
the one-storey they never thought they would get, they actually got | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
yesterday. Too much pressure on celebrities, on creatives, Donna? | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
Or not enough support given? All support given but not taken? There | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
is a creative temperament, and I think the problem with the creative | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
temperament is that they are very good at using their imagination and | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
their talents, but they can be, as in his days, fragile, unstable, | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
maybe slightly addiction prone as a way of dealing with stress and | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
anxiety. -- in his case. Obsessed with what they are trying to | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
accomplish, maybe trying to deal with it. Yes, they need a little | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
bit more care, and I think unfortunately our society has | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
become too celebrity focused. We expect too much of our icons. We | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
want to be like them, we want to watch every moment. It is too much | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
pressure for many individuals who are creative and delicate. Rosie, | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
you have covered celebrities and their lifestyles as well as their | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
work. I have noticed that younger stars are looked after a lot more | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
by their record companies than they used to be. You know, they are | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
managed very professionally, their finances are managed, they are | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
protected, you know, largely from the vicissitudes of being famous. | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
They are not just cast out and left to sort of wallow around in the | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
world of celebrity, as they might have done in the 1960s. You know, | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
Amy Winehouse, it is a total tragedy. I think that she probably | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
had obsessive, perhaps addictive tendencies, and those got the | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
better of her. Issues that we will be discussing for weeks to come, | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
issues that we will be addressing later in a series of Sunday Morning | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
Live. Still to come this morning, politicians have had a rough ride | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
recently, but as the dust settles, we are asking, should we actually | :27:57. | :28:07. | |
:28:07. | :28:24. | ||
And he floating in our text poll. - You have around 15 minutes before | :28:24. | :28:34. | |
:28:34. | :28:36. | ||
Now, be honest, do you cast your eye over your horoscope in a | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
newspaper even if you think it is total hogwash? Thousands pay good | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
money to good and bad mediums and psychics. It can bring great | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
comfort, maybe some entertainment. Rosie Millard says that if you have | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
got the gift, you should live up to that word and do it for proof. Here | :28:53. | :29:02. | |
:29:03. | :29:03. | ||
I do not believe that card readers, to leave readers, astrologers for | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
mediums have any special powers, and I think it should be illegal | :29:07. | :29:14. | |
for them to charge for their I have got four children. I have | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
got no idea what any of their star signs are, and if they are ill, I | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
take them to see a doctor. Recently I had the experience of meeting a | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
medium, and the whole thing made me very worried that he was | :29:26. | :29:34. | |
manipulating extremely vulnerable I think it is particularly wrong in | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
vulnerable people end up paying for these services. It encourages them | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
to believe the twaddle that is being dished out. Why pay | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
otherwise? If you want to believe, that is your business, but please | :29:46. | :29:54. | |
let non-have a bill at the end of it. -- let -- let's not have a bill | :29:54. | :30:04. | |
:30:04. | :30:04. | ||
What do you think? Do you think money making mediums should be | :30:04. | :30:11. | |
banned? We are joined now by a Seema Malhotra, director of the | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
Fabian women's network. Do you take them seriously? I think it is | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
important that people have a choice. They have a choice in exploring the | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
life and the afterlife. I don't think we can come in and say we | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
will impose our own values and beliefs on other people. I think | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
the idea that there is nothing after death and it is or something | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
we should challenge, whether we can verify it, I think that is a | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
difficult concept. I think we have to be open as a society. De believe | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
in life after death? I think there is something and I am interested in | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
different faiths and philosophies. I spend a lot of time exploring | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
them. But I do not think it is up to me to impose my view on whether | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
someone else's belief is right or wrong. 57 % of people do think | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
there is life after death. Why do you deny them the chance to explore | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
that further? You can explore life after death, obviously and world | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
religions are based on the notion that there is life after death. | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
What I think the problem is is paying someone else he says, I have | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
the knowledge, I have a special gift and I will tell you what to do | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
with your life, it takes the notion of self determinism out of people's | :31:32. | :31:41. | |
hands. It takes their right for independence away from them. Let's | :31:41. | :31:49. | |
butcher is a medium. Do you charge? Yes I do. Why do you charge if it | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
is a gift you have? Because it is my time, it is my energy, to | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
something I trained to do, something I trained for some time. | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
The reason I act in a counselling role also. I spend a lot of time | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
dealing with people who are bereft, who struggle with their grief. | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
Having said that, I flatly refused to read for people who were | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
perceived to be extremely vulnerable. Why do people go to | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
mediums? If you are searching for a message from a pet dog you have, | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
their art mediums who give messages from Peps to people who are grief- | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
stricken, if you are searching for an answer to life, going to see a | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
medium to have a message from Aunt Beryl about the fact that yes, you | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
should possibly move to Stockport or give up your job, is | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
irresponsible. These people are vulnerable anyway? I agree with a | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
lot of what Rosie has just said. However, I do not feel you can tar | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
everyone with the same brush. To me, medium ship is about proving life | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
after death. You can not prove it, how can you prove it? Because you | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
can describe the character, you can give memory links, you can talk | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
about how they have passed to the spirit world. You can reassure the | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
person whom you are reading for that their loved one, their friend, | :33:24. | :33:32. | |
however it was, is no longer suffering... How can you possibly... | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
Where is the scientific proof? is the point. Nobody, not you or | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
anybody else can talk to the dead. It is a nonsense. You might think | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
that you can. I have seen some of those people at work. You watch | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
those channels. They say, anybody in the audience with feet or | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
whatever. It is very clever, it is cold reading, it has been done for | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
years and it is a magical trick. The notion of -- paying money for | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
an unprovable message, it happens in religion as well. I think that | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
is basically imposing our own beliefs. I think it is really | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
important to be open. I will happily say I do not know if it is | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
true that people are contacted. What I do know is that if people do | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
make contact, or there is something which comes back that is a comfort | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
to people, it may be true or it might not be. People have the right | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
to exercise that. Children get nervous -- murdered because people | :34:35. | :34:44. | |
believe there is a devil in them. want to come back to one. Macro | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
which is what is a gift and what do charge for. You could say the same | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
about art, you could say the same about psychology and journalism. At | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
which point de re-sown one profession over another or | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
something someone is interested in where the should charge for it or | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
not. You might say politicians should be given their service for | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
free. When people come to see you, how much do you charge and how | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
popular is your service? Charges vary. There are some people I don't | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
charge. I do not charge for healing. If I believe there is a genuine | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
need and a person just need the comfort then I went charge anything | :35:24. | :35:32. | |
at all. My services are practically now entirely word of mouth. | :35:32. | :35:38. | |
healing. I was doing a programme with a medium and he took me to see | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
some alternative therapists who said, if you step over this stone | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
with your left foot, that will heal the. People with very serious | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
diseases go to see these charlatans. We had to snort up ground-up paced | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
through our noses, it was some South American thing. This | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
character said people suffer from throat cancer and get a lot of help | :36:01. | :36:07. | |
this way. This is stopping people from having proven scientific care. | :36:07. | :36:15. | |
Next stick to the issue of mediums and psychologists. I want to talk | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
to Professor Chris French from Goldsmiths University. There is no | :36:19. | :36:26. | |
evidence that this is scientifically true but she says | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
she provides a service that it is a solace to people. Psychologically, | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
can it help? The fact is, it probably does give people some | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
comfort, in the same way that alternative therapies which do not | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
really work, make people feel better through a placebo effect. If | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
it does raise a host of ethical issues. On the one hand, we would | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
all condemn psychics who are deliberate frauds, but many of them | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
to believe they have a special gift. You have the argument you have just | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
made yourself fit people take comfort from it. Even though I do | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
not for one minute believe these people have these special powers, | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
if people take some comfort from it and they are adults and they want | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
to pay their money on that, on the end, I have to come down on the | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
side of the argument that says, I don't think we should ban mediums | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
for charging for their services, even though I do not think they | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
have this special gift. professor is right. I have done I | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
don't have any phone-ins on this issue. People do come away with a | :37:29. | :37:36. | |
semblance of comfort, that would be the placebo effect. The idea of | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
banning them is a whole different issue. I have never heard one | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
person who had a reading come away with something so unequivocal and | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
perfect that he would have no choice but to say, clearly there is | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
something in this. He is always very vague and it could always be | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
applied to more than one scenario. I would disagree. I have never felt | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
a need to talk to anyone myself but I do know people who have had tarot | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
card readings of feel they have had communication with someone who has | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
passed on and it is not for me to disagree or say yes or no to what | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
happened to them. There is an irony in this debate. On the one hand we | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
are saying, if it is a gift, don't charge, on the other hand you were | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
saying, therefore, are you saying that we believe what you're saying, | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
we were just should not charge for it. At which point will be saying | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
is this a full-service or you should not charge for your time? | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
think probably both. I think it encourages people to put their fate | :38:37. | :38:44. | |
out of their own hands. There are links in between Clare's Law and | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
berries and interesting link between how much are you guided in | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
your life by your own views and your own experiences and your own | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
intelligence, or should you put it in hands of mediums on the other | :38:57. | :39:06. | |
hand,... Is this also about people wanting to deal with the great | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
inevitable and it is one way of dealing with that? One thing, we | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
all face, the inevitable and if we can tell ourselves that we can | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
still communicate once we are on the other side, that makes people | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
feel better, doesn't it? It is not just about communicating with | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
people they have lost, it is something instinctive within us. | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
would say it is something different. There is an important question | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
about our comfort with life and our comfort with death that we know is | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
inevitable and I think that is something which is important to | :39:41. | :39:48. | |
people in different ways of their life to explore. I'd don't think it | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
is about saying after my death I can communicate with the living, it | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
is a question of saying if life is all there is and if it isn't, what | :39:55. | :40:02. | |
does that mean for the choices I make in my life? Wendy Grossman | :40:02. | :40:10. | |
from the skeptic magazine, it is any of that dangerous? If you think | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
about where Amy Winehouse's mother is right now, and you can imagine | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
somebody offering her the notion that she can connect in some way to | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
her dead daughter and say goodbye, that is how vulnerable somebody | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
years. I don't actually think that whether the medium charges or not | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
is really the issue. I think the issue is much more that people are | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
being offered something that is not necessarily true. I think the | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
emotional damage is the same, whether they are paid or not. There | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
are things like psychic hotlines and medium hot lines where people | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
do make quite a bit of money and I would worry about those but I think | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
there is a simple thing that if you catch somebody actually committing | :40:53. | :41:01. | |
fraud, we have laws which you can prosecute on. It is difficult to | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
prevent somebody spending their own money on something where the | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
practitioner is deluded. Caroline has got in touch with the programme. | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
Have you ever used a medium? Actually, I am a medium. I have | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
used mediums myself. I am a psychic medium. And what if someone comes | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
to you and they are incredibly vulnerable and they have lost | :41:22. | :41:32. | |
somebody, what is your response to that person? It depends on them. | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
Everybody is individual, as you know and their strength can be | :41:36. | :41:43. | |
immense, even after losing somebody so close to them. I'd to weigh up | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
as to whether they are too vulnerable or at the right time and | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
my spirit guides will tell me this. To be truthful, I am insulted at | :41:54. | :42:01. | |
being told or hearing that my job, my profession is a load of | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
codswallop. It is not just a profession. You had better get used | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
to it. You are talking about something a bit more fundamental | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
than a bit of a job, you are talking about the ability to | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
communicate with the other side. If it did not go into such emotional | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
territory as we have talked about, it would be laughable. You are | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
coming on national television and saying, look at me, I can do | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
miracles. No, excuse me. Have you ever spoken to a medium? Have you | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
ever had a reading? I have spoken to a medium. He had a spirit guide | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
with him. The thing is, have you had a reading where that | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
information which has come from that medium, was spot on? If not, | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
then you have gone to the wrong medium. And you keep going to them | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
until you get a good one, is that what you are saying? They do not | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
know that you, how did they know the information they are giving | :43:00. | :43:07. | |
you? It is called cold reading, religion has done it for years. | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
Next let her finish. Briefly. not claiming that I am the be-all | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
and end-all and I am godly. This is a gift that I have, just like a | :43:18. | :43:24. | |
painter, an artist, a musician, a body like that. I have never had | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
anybody complain to make that what I have told them is wrong. Thank | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
you. I want to go to some of these comments from viewers. Cardiff on | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
Twitter says mediums claim it is a gift they have been given, gifts | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
are free, they say, no charge. June says she is a medium and does not | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
charge and mediums should be regulated. And Ian on Twitter says | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
mediums fill a demand as do psychologists. Both offer opinions | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
which are left to interpretation by the recipient. Rosie, do you think | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
everything should be scientifically verified before somebody is allowed | :44:05. | :44:11. | |
to be charged for it, or sometimes do like not knowing. What about a | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
magic show? We all know we are being conned to some extent but we | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
pay for it. It is entertainment. People do not go to mediums for | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
entertainment, they go for guidance and that is completely wrong. On | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
what basis are they giving the guidance? I think there is a very | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
different question and there is a question where we should challenge | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
what people using mediums for. Whether or not you want guidance, | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
you should be strong in your own life by your choices and your | :44:41. | :44:47. | |
understanding, but what did you go for a medium for his, I think, and | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
whether it does you good or whether it helps you is something that I | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
think he can challenge about what you're hearing and will how you are | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
using that information. I do think regulation is important and I do | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
think we should be able to have a conversation with people who might | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
use mediums and what they believe and why they believe it without | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
outright rejection. Tarot card reading is an area of possible | :45:12. | :45:22. | |
:45:22. | :45:22. | ||
sites we do not know enough about. If David Cameron had been second, | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
he would not have needed hindsight? Should we be proud of our political | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
leaders? You have been voting in our text bold, should we have a | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
right to know about our partner's violent past. Please do not vote | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
now, you will still be charged but Joe vote will not count. We will | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
renew the result at the end of the programme. | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
Since the MPs' expenses scandal, politicians hold a place in our | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
content usually reserved for journalists, bankers and estate | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
agents. But he is a thought, are we too quick to have a go at men and | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
women already get heckled and ridiculed for a living? Should we | :46:00. | :46:08. | |
be proud of our politicians? Ought to think they have lost the plot? - | :46:08. | :46:18. | |
:46:18. | :46:18. | ||
The won declares famine in Somalia. -- the UN. Europe and America | :46:18. | :46:26. | |
teeter on the edge of financial meltdown. Xinhua, in the mother of | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
all parliaments, our politicians squabble over phone-hacking. -- | :46:30. | :46:40. | |
:46:40. | :46:43. | ||
Order! I say to members who are now heckling, think of what the public | :46:43. | :46:50. | |
thinks of our behaviour. Order! And stop it! But how well behaved would | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
you be if you are fighting to hold on to your job? And fighting to | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
stop one mistake derailing everything you and your party stand | :46:57. | :47:05. | |
for? It is not just the hacking scandal. Our leader's' Rees and U- | :47:05. | :47:12. | |
turns have brought a lot of anger, sacrificing principles for power. - | :47:12. | :47:18. | |
- Recent. I have done a lot of my own, and they should be done with | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
panache! Politicians used to stick to their convictions, even if it | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
riled the public. I am telling you, you cannot play politics with | :47:26. | :47:36. | |
people's jobs and with people's services! U-turn if you want to. | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
The lady is not for turning. modern politics sometimes requires | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
people to change their minds, reflect on their mistakes and shift | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
position when necessary. And our legendary leaders did not have to | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
put up with 24 hour news examining every detail of their private lives | :47:53. | :47:59. | |
and public statements. So have our political leaders let us down and | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
betrayed their principles? Or, slightly to our surprise, have they | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
done us proud? Amber Elliott is political editor for total politics | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
magazine. A morally bankrupt bunch what does your heart swell when you | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
watch them? I am not quite sure that its rules, but I am quite | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
proud of our politicians. They work very hard on a day-to-day basis, | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
and while I have weeks when I am more proud of them, they too will | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
lot of good work and a lot of good work that is not noticed by the | :48:30. | :48:38. | |
majority. David Craig is author of Fleece, which gives some insight | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
into what he thinks! Are you proud? Do they do a good job for us? | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
at all. What I saw last week was a bunch of shameless, self-serving, | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
self-righteous fools who were trying to gain the moral high | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
ground in an attempt to get back some of the credibility that they | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
have deservedly lost through their own greed and incompetence. Does | :49:01. | :49:08. | |
any politician or political leader, do you hold any up as a role model? | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
My worry is that our politicians have become part of a self-serving | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
club, an elite that has doubled in size over the last 10 years. At the | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
same time, we are paying for twice as many people in the political | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
class than we did 10 years ago. At the same time, the percentage of | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
our laws made by the European Union has gone up from 30% up to 80%. We | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
are paying twice as many people to do half as much work. They are not | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
hard-working, they have increased their holidays up to 100 days be it. | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
They have reduced the number of hours they sit in Parliament. This | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
idea of them being hard-working public servants is rubbish. Jimani | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
and they do not do enough. The idea that they had six weeks' holiday, | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
they are not on holiday. They are back in their constituencies, the | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
majority of them, dealing with constituency work. They are | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
available more to people now than when they are travelling to and | :50:04. | :50:10. | |
from Parliament. I think David's point is right. If you look at the | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
three main parties, you have this homogenised, liberalised, vacuous, | :50:15. | :50:20. | |
platitudinous mess of an attempt at finding centre ground. You look | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
back at Neil Kinnock at his absolute best, trying to get rid of | :50:23. | :50:30. | |
the Militant tendency, people walking out, Thatcher, the opposing | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
force of our political system, but there is none of that any more. | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
it didn't do Neil Kinnock any good? Without Kinnock, there would not | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
have been Tony Blair, the whole New Labour experiment only worked | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
because of what Kinnock did so brilliantly. But he was going for | :50:47. | :50:57. | |
:50:57. | :51:00. | ||
the centre ground. That centre ground has now been taken up by | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
absolutely every one. People have become less passionate about | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
politics. We live in an age of soundbites. Politicians played to | :51:08. | :51:14. | |
that. We also live in a peaceful age. I think it is easier for a | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
politician to be moral, to be virtuous if they are leaving their | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
country in a time of absolute crisis. You know, people look at | :51:21. | :51:26. | |
Churchill and so he was amazing in the war. Well, that was a | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
completely unrealistic comparison with now. The other thing is, I | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
think politicians are off with very good intentions. I mean, look at | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
Barack Obama, the saviour of the Western world. When they get into | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
office, the necessity of modern-day politics, currying favour, dealing | :51:43. | :51:50. | |
with people, accepting different sorts of deals with in your group, | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
it means that you end up with a slightly bastardisation of your | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
original concept. That is politics, it is about negotiation and | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
compromise. By the health situation with Obama. He has not been able to | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
put in his reforms. He has ended up with a fudge. Is that inevitable? | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
Is that something we need to be proud of? It depends on the issue. | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
You do have to negotiate at times, but look at the Norwegian Prime | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
Minister at a time of crisis. He says the only way to go through | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
this is by having more democracy, improve democracy, that is how we | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
act. That was really staring stuff. When you say democracy, does that | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
the more politicians agreeing? Cameron has got a great opportunity | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
with what has happened with the Brussels bailout to make some | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
alterations to our relationship with Europe. We could have a no, no, | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
no moment from Mr Cameron. About 70% of the country would support | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
that, but it is not going to happen because he is scared witless of the | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
liberal media, that level of Don and Coventry -- dominant commentary | :52:58. | :53:04. | |
in the media. I do not think years. He is scared of you! Dr Victoria | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
and Damon is a lecture in British politics who has studied this area. | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
Some people say that Ed Miliband, in the last week, has shown of | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
moral leadership, moral backbone. He has only achieved a very slight | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
bump in his popularity rating. Does the British public really want | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
politicians to look strong and moral? I think so. We would like | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
our politicians to look strong and moral. However, Ben are other | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
things we consider important in politicians. -- there. Morality | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
varies from person to person, it depends on your political viewpoint | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
sometimes, so the fact that Miliband's rating has only gone up | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
fractionally should not suggest we are an immoral country, simply that | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
some of us believe his morals are correct, some have different views. | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
That is exactly true. We have a situation where half the commentary | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
was so proud of Ed Miliband, for standing up, taking on Murdoch, but | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
the other half are saying, this is just because he wants to win votes. | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
It is very hard for a politician, when they make a move like this, | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
not to seem false. That is very true. For my money, the one who | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
seems most false is Nick Clegg. He has basically abandoned so many for | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
the principles of his party. It is a coalition, that is what you have | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
to do. The Tories have abandoned theirs. It does not mean he is not | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
moral. Which one of his policies have got through? None of them. | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
Rosie, on the one hand, you could say that he has committed a | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
political sin by jettisoning something he was very proud of, but | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
others might say that he may be necessary political compromise, | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
showed political bravery by doing something very difficult. This is | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
the trouble of politicians, isn't it? It can be interpreted either | :54:52. | :54:58. | |
way. But once in power, he has proved a weak force, and he has not | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
put forward the principles of his party. Is he a good example a bad | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
example? The problem with Nick Clegg is he is a difficult moral | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
example, because at the end of the day he went back on some of his | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
manifesto pledges in the interest of their country. He has been | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
steamrollered by the Tories. think he is learning that, but we | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
have things like the pupil premium, and the Lib Dems have so little | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
money to push out their message that sometimes it is the | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
mechanisation that affect them, rather than the fact that he is not | :55:30. | :55:38. | |
doing good. Rosie, do you have political heroes? Not really. | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
quite difficult to have a political hero now, I think. If you look | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
across the House of Commons, what you see, sadly, there of people, | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
Dennis in on one side, a few characters on the other, but there | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
is no volatile it -- polarisation in politics. If we are not proud of | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
our politicians, we are teaching a generation of people that they | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
should not go into it. mentioned Ed Miliband, and if the | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
leader of the opposition cannot or with an open goal by saying, Andy | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
Coulson, Andy Coulson, he banged on about it all week. And yet across | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
the water, a huge issue with financials, the euro, the global | :56:15. | :56:22. | |
economy, hardly a word spoken about it. A couple of tweets, I lost | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
faith when the Liberals made such a big deal of pledging not to raise | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
tuition fees. Matt and London, until the politicians fix things, I | :56:30. | :56:38. | |
will not be proud of them. It is about status. We should not have to | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
me -- to make an effort to be proud of them. They should make us proud. | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
We will see whether they bring us cause for pride or shame over the | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
next week. Meanwhile, the results of the vote has come in. We ask | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
that the beginning of the programme, do we have the right to know a part | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
of's violent past, and this is what you told us. 81% of those who | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
texted in said that yes, we should have the right to know. 19% no, we | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
should not. That rather flies in the face of your argument. I think | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
the question... There is something about the way the question is | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
raised, and that is always the way it works. Should you have the right | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
to know somebody is violent? If you put it like that, yes. But the | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
greater picture of what it says about society, the state, he was | :57:27. | :57:34. | |
watching, who we check up on, more databases, more lists... Let's get | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
back to individual responsibility. I know that there are tough | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
scenarios that come out of that, but as he said at the beginning, | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
but more is what we are talking about, that cannot ever make good | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
law. Thank you for getting in touch with us this morning. Thank you to | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
my guests who have taken part, Rosie Millard, Amber Elliott, Ian | :57:53. | :58:00. | |
Collins and of course Donna Dawson. Please do not text or call the | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
phone lines any more because they are closed. You can continue the | :58:04. | :58:09. |