Episode 5 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 5

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Two women a week are killed by their partners. Many more are

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beaten and abused. Would lives be saved if we had the right to expose

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Good morning. Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. In the age of

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internet dating, should the law let us know if our partner beat up

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their ex? To tarot cards, mystics,

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clairvoyants, is there anything in what they say? What do you think

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about them asking for money? Not a lot says one of our guests. I think

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it should be illegal. Card readers, tarot readers or astrologers to

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charge for their services. They bayed, brayed and point scored

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in Parma this week but should we be proud of our political leaders? --

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Parliament. Rosie Millard was the BBC Arts

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correspondent but now she writes on everything from art to dragging her

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four children around the world. In Collins is a late night radio

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host. His latest book is called 87 people are like to slap.

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And it is a miracle psychologist Donna Dawson got here at all. She

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is usually glued to the sofa at This Morning dispensing advice on

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relationships. You can challenge any of our guests on webcam, Skype

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Clare Wood's dad thinks his 36- year-old daughter would still be

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alive if she had known about her boyfriend's violent past. In her

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name he now wants eclairs law to give women the right to the

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knowledge about a violent past a -- The rise of online dating mean more

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relationships begin between strangers. Should women going into

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a new relationship be able to find out if their partner has violence

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in their past? With this large invasion of privacy outweigh the

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statistically small amount of abuse? But abusers often have form.

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One study found that half of all attackers were involved in another

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incident within three years. couldn't my daughter be told that

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this Laddie had a past? Michael's daughter, Clare, met

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George Appleton, a man with a criminal record of violence against

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women. He killed Clare in 2009. A law which would have alerted Clare

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took his past convictions may have saved her life, but should the

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police intervened so directly into our personal life. Such a law would

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not allow men to repent and reform. Once convicted, a man would always

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be considered a danger and some women could use the law to make

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false allegations against innocent men. We already ask for criminal

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records checks for those in contact with our children. Should we now

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ask the law to intervene in our adult relationships?

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Rosie, should we? I think it would be impossible to say that this

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would stop violence against women. Many women are attracted to men

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knowing already about their past. The fact that we have the police

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checks about people who work with children has not necessarily stop

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attacks on children. I do not think you would be able to stand it up,

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to be honest. The that is the question for our text vote this

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morning. Do we have a right to know For full terms and conditions visit

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visit bbc.co.uk/sundaymorninglive. We will show you how you voted at

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the end of the programme. Donna? With the greatest respect, Rosie, I

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think that is a simplistic view to take. I think we have to start

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somewhere, particularly with the Wild West frontier that is the

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internet, help women, guide them and give their someone -- give them

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somewhere to go. I think we all have a right to know if someone has

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a violent past. Yes, they do have a right and some rights are stronger

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than others. Hour right not to have our feathers ruffled is not as

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strong as the right as social animals to keep someone from a

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torrential abuse or even death. this is a balance of rights,

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someone who needs to know a crucial piece of information and somebody

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who might not want that information out? You cannot legislate for

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lunatics, it is as simple as that. It is a bad law. I would like

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information on dodgy neighbours, weird girl friends, if you like,

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what people who live down the road. We could call for a similar

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approach for all manner of things in life. Our democracy does not

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work on that basis. The man who attacked and murdered Clare, I

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think that his previous conviction was reasonably minor, I do not

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think there was any sense that he would have been held up. Let's find

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out from Clare's father, Michael Brown, who joins us. Michael, talk

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to us about why you think Clare would have been protected if she

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had known that George, her ex- boyfriend, had been violent towards

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other women in the past? If I can just intercede for the fellow who

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was speaking before, if he was standing in my shoes for 10 minutes,

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he would neither have the opinion that he has, nor would he deny it

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the women of this country another layer of protection. My daughter

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gave this Laddie his marching orders and until such time, I had

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no idea that he was controlling or abusing my daughter. I don't know

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if the law would have helped Clare. Michael, I wonder if I can ask,

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what was George's history of violence? George had three

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restraining orders against other women. He had already done six

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months for breaking a restraining order and he had done 3.5 years for

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following a lady from Manchester it to Newcastle, following -- breaking

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into her house and holding her at knifepoint for eight hours. Do you

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think, is Clare had known all of that information that she would not

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have struck up a relationship with him at all or managed to get out

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earlier? There are conjectures in that one. I believe my daughter was

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not stupid and she would have been out there -- out of there in a

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heartbeat. I was led to believe the criminal record he had was to do

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with driving offences. Ian, it is another layer of protection and it

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is hard to argue. To pick up on Michael's point, of course I have

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no idea what it feels like to be Michael's shoes and nobody could,

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how could they? But it does come back to the point that was made at

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the beginning, it is called bad law, we do not tend to make laws in this

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country based on the most seductive case. Otherwise, we would be in

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this never-ending circle to -- of litigation. From a fellow's point

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of view, does that mean every guy could be criminally checked to see

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if they have something in their past? Where does that leave

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innocent guise? It is impossible to have this law with the internet,

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with people meeting, how many friends on Facebook de actually

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know? That brings up a huge vitiate about where we start -- that brings

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up a huge issue about where we start. The thing is, there are no

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aspects on the internet to protect anybody. A psychopath's field day.

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They can go on there, pretend to be as normal as can be and cover-up

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their past. There are violent women out there, not as many. It is more

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important than your feathers being ruffled. If you'd be on the phone

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to the police every three minutes. When? Before the first day it?

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can hear that Michael wants to come back in. Excuse me, this is the

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level of discussion that I have come across all the way through the

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introduction of this law. There are people for it, there are people

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against, attack the end of the day, there are many clever people in

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this country who can fit this law in without interfering, we are

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talking about something in the region off... To protect women from

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that 25, eyelid suggest that unless you were in a domestic violence

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situation, that was denied to year. -- that was denied to you. If he

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was under police suspicion, that should be volunteered and you

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should be able to ask. I don't want this bandied about. I want men,

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women protected in this country from violent partners. Not just

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women. There are gay couples in this country and the best of luck

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to them, heterosexual, it makes no difference. I want partners who

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were in trouble to be given access to information of past violence.

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Michael, I really appreciate your time this morning and thank you

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very much indeed for coming on the programme to discuss what is

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obviously a very painful issue for you still. I'm going to talk to

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Hazel Blears now, because she is the former Home Office Minister who

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also backs the introduction of this law. Hazel, is this about a women -

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- or woman who lacked information or is this about a failure of the

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police to protect someone who had already made numerous complaints

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about this man? Good morning. Clare Wood was actually my constituent

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and I do not pretend for a moment that this law would stop domestic

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violence in its tracks, but what I do know, what happened to Clare,

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the sequence of events with a man who had a very violent past, the

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authorities knew that information but as the law stands now, they

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were unable to share that with Clare. She did not have the choice,

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she was not empowered to decide for herself whether she wanted to

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continue that relationship. The whole point of this law is it is

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not a fishing expedition on your first date, there will be checks

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and balances in the system. When a woman or a man feels that perhaps

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their partner's behaviour is starting to become abusive, they

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could go to the police, the police could check all their records from

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right across the country because they now have a national database.

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Can I interrupt? If the woman's partner has begun to be abusive, is

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there not an argument that that woman should be encouraged to

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report it to police or to leave, that actually, in a lot of cases,

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sadly, women whose partners become abusive, do not leave and they have

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the information write their in their homes, the evidence that that

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person is violent. Do they need other information? Of course they

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did. Domestic violence is a complex set of issues. On average, a woman

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is assaulted 30 times before they take action. I'm not pretending

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that this law would solve all the problems but at the moment, the

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police could have information, the council, the health service and

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they are prevented from sharing that with the person who is

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concerned. This is a matter of a woman or a man having the right.

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Let me through this back into the studio. Clare already did go to the

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police. Perhaps we should look at refuges for women who have an

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abusive partner, homes for them to go to add a whole support system

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which would have helped them once they raised the alarm. I don't

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think it is about knowing about the past, it is dealing with the

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present and Clare was aware that this man was very violent. If it is

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a complex issue. Once a man begins to abuse, and that is why you have

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to get the checks done early, women become so cowed and frightened and

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threatened by their partner that they are terrified to leave. They

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might think they can change this man, they will be in the first

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flush of romantic love and they think, he has got a dodgy past but

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I will forgive him that and carry on. Are we not missing the great

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point here? Hazel is advocating the secret police. We hold a file that

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anybody can access if they feel like it. Who gets the right to it.

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Not if they feel like it. You can extend it all over the place. You

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can have it for noisy neighbours, We have become a spoilt society

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where we believe we have so many rights. I have noticed that

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criminals have more right than victims. That cannot be right.

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mentioned refuges. Erin Pizzey set up the first women's refuge. Would

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this help women even if they already know their partner is that

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deserve? Yes, I think it would. I am all in favour of this because

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the situation is dire, and domestic violence is academic. Let's

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remember that hit it is not men and women while the real victims, the

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children have no choices. I have just been dealing with a man who

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had batted three women and is now one is for women. She has got three

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small kids and she is planning to move in with him. Yes, first of all,

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apart from anything else, if we have these checks and balances,

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everybody has the information. My main problem is I want to make her

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responsible for her choice. Once she knows she is with a violent

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partner, I want her to take part in what other it is that will protect

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the children. How can you know that he has batted previous partners but

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she does not? Because I know because, as far as I am concerned,

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I know a lot about his background. I have not actually talked to her.

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I know about him. We have this problem with violent men. Let's not

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leave them out of the equation. These men need a counselling

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service. I remember many years ago are sitting on the couch, in a

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group with Princess Anne, we were talking about more refuges for

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women. Yes, they need that, but these men need help, and that is

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often overlooked. They need to be treated. Women who consistently

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make violent relationships, and there are many of them. This is

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just about... I think it is impossible, it would be impossible

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to enforce. How is this meant to work? You go to the local police

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station? Before your first date? have just heard about a case where

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a woman is about to move in with a man, she has three children. There

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is information that this man has form. They are not going to tell

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her. I do not know how she knows that information, it might be a

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specific case. Often a friend of a friend knows information. When you

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have a state law that steps in and allows people access to some kind

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of database through turning up at the police station, phoning a

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hotline, whatever it happens to be, it is completely unworkable. Erin?

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Why is it that we are taking all the steps we can to stop

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paedophiles having access to children but we let violent people

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us and our children? Actually, we sort of marinate these children and

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violence, and they grow up like that. But how far do we take that

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kind of legislation? It could be applied in so many areas. If you

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look at individual stories, they are clearly very seductive and

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powerful. Because the children are innocent and cannot find these

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things out for themselves, they cannot judge for themselves, a

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small child, but an adult woman, should she be seen on the same

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level as a small... Correct. small child? Sean, this is a new

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way of meeting people, over the internet, it is still relatively

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fresh, it is an charted territory, it requires new ways of regulating.

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That is what this information is doing, it is the equivalent of your

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friends tapping you on the shoulder and say, I would not go near him,

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he is trouble. No, it is a containerisation of the atomisation

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of society that we have seen with the CRB checks. -- continuation.

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You create a default situation in which everybody distrusts everybody

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else unless they are somehow cleared by the state. I disagree.

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It mediates social relationships through the state. It produces the

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same kind of effect as the French, Russian revolutionary regimes by

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killing people at random. That is crazy, what... That is the most

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stupid bit of crepe I have ever heard! We are social animals, we

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are responsible for each other. We do not become a police stages

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because we have a few safeguards! People have to have police checks

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before they do a reading at a school, parents. Is that necessary?

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What is the problem? If you have got nothing to hide, what is the

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problem? Everything champs said seems to make perfect sense. It was

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an extension of the point I was trying to make about the secret

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police holding databases on people. How about a society which is too

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liberal and everybody gets to carve Up everybody else and criminals get

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to run loose because there are no checks on them? One final question,

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what about second chances. Second chances for who? Four men who may

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have made a mistake in the past. as a psychologist, I would say,

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great, he has got up in debt counselling, because our lot of

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them do not change. A lot of them need to be given the chance, but

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they cannot be left to run wild on the internet, no way. Do you agree?

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Do we have a right to know a partner's violent pass? That is our

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vote today. If you think we should You have around 20 minutes before

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it closes. Now, if you have been affected by any of the issues we

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have discussed, there links to organisations offering help and

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advice on our website. -- there our links.

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All of us affected by the terrible events in Norway this weekend, we

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still have so much to learn about what this individual thought he was

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doing when he murdered so many people on Saturday. Do we give some

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sort of false authority, the end, to people who say they want to

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explain themselves, explain their motivation? This chap says it was

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an atrocious thing to have done. that very point, I have been

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surprised by the police releasing a statement already, giving his

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interpretation, giving it context, giving it some vague, rather crude

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level of credibility in doing that. I am intrigued, on this particular

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story, about the absence of the word terrorist, which does not seem

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to be bandied about in the same way have seen with other similar

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stories. We talk about a lone gunman, a fundamentalist, but the

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worst terrorist does not seem to be in there very much. There are bad

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people. Once in a while, these terrible stories from Dunblane to

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Columbine to what we have seen here happen, and we can go around in

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circles trying to explain the various reasons, the

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interpretations, the psychological deficit in these people. We can

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attempt to put some kind of intellectual gloss on it. Bottom

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line, the world throws up, in the gene pool, some very bad people.

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Donna, or is it helpful but we here this person's explanation for their

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motivation? Or is it simply a heinous crime with no

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justification? Should we even allow a justification to be heard? It is

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both, but the fact that he did not shoot himself is quite interesting.

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There is a lot we can learn from his so-called explanation, not that

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we will accept it. What we are looking for is an insight into the

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mind of somebody who is obviously mentally unstable and the efficient

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and may have some clues in his background, his upbringing, his

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contacts, his point of view that will help us to deal with things,

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maybe preventing such a thing in a future. It may give us an

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understanding that will lead us to think about where else we need to

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look. This is a society that for years has been thought of as

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peaceful, you know, quite complacent. We have seen a surge

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and Scandinavian literature that has shown a dark underside to this

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society, whey -- where there is a lot of things happening on the far

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right. A lot of countries to have immigration issues need to look at

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this and address it. He is kind of the apex of a whole subterranean

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problem, where we are looking at somebody's whole upbringing as well

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as their mental state of mind. Yes, we have things to learn. Rosie,

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your thoughts? People are flailing as they try to explain how somebody

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could do this. Especially in a country like Norway. It will be

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very interesting to see what he says in court, how he can possibly

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address is absolutely horrendous crime. I think that, you know,

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there are similarities, it seems, to Dunblane. We know that from the

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stuff that is already around online that he has written. It seems that

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he has the same sort of feeling of being an outsider, that he was

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against what he saw as a liberal elite pushing the country in a way

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that he resented. He felt he did not belong. You know, he has this

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quote from John Stuart Mill's about one man with faith as more force

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than 100,000 people with interest. It is a misguided notion of some

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sort of crusade, using Christianity as some sort of explanation for

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what he has done. Well, obviously, we wait to hear what happens on

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Monday, but there is something that people are finding very hard to

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process. Meanwhile, an individual tragedy yesterday with the news

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that Amy Winehouse was found dead. Now, he walked past Amy Winehouse's

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flat regularly and had mentioned that there was not a time when

:25:30.:25:36.

there were not paparazzi outside, waiting to see her. A friend of

:25:36.:25:38.

mine who knew her reasonably well lived just around the corner, and

:25:38.:25:43.

every time we walked past, there would be a pack of paparazzi out

:25:43.:25:49.

there trying to get a picture try to get... I am not blaming the

:25:49.:25:54.

paparazzi, that was part of what she did, part of what she did for a

:25:54.:25:58.

living. It kind of goes with the job of being a celebrity, being a

:25:58.:26:02.

rock star, whatever you want to call it. I think most of the time

:26:02.:26:05.

she accepted that and went along with it, but it is interesting that

:26:05.:26:08.

the one-storey they never thought they would get, they actually got

:26:08.:26:14.

yesterday. Too much pressure on celebrities, on creatives, Donna?

:26:14.:26:19.

Or not enough support given? All support given but not taken? There

:26:19.:26:22.

is a creative temperament, and I think the problem with the creative

:26:22.:26:26.

temperament is that they are very good at using their imagination and

:26:26.:26:32.

their talents, but they can be, as in his days, fragile, unstable,

:26:32.:26:35.

maybe slightly addiction prone as a way of dealing with stress and

:26:35.:26:40.

anxiety. -- in his case. Obsessed with what they are trying to

:26:40.:26:43.

accomplish, maybe trying to deal with it. Yes, they need a little

:26:43.:26:47.

bit more care, and I think unfortunately our society has

:26:47.:26:51.

become too celebrity focused. We expect too much of our icons. We

:26:51.:26:55.

want to be like them, we want to watch every moment. It is too much

:26:55.:27:00.

pressure for many individuals who are creative and delicate. Rosie,

:27:00.:27:03.

you have covered celebrities and their lifestyles as well as their

:27:03.:27:07.

work. I have noticed that younger stars are looked after a lot more

:27:07.:27:11.

by their record companies than they used to be. You know, they are

:27:11.:27:15.

managed very professionally, their finances are managed, they are

:27:15.:27:21.

protected, you know, largely from the vicissitudes of being famous.

:27:21.:27:26.

They are not just cast out and left to sort of wallow around in the

:27:26.:27:30.

world of celebrity, as they might have done in the 1960s. You know,

:27:30.:27:35.

Amy Winehouse, it is a total tragedy. I think that she probably

:27:35.:27:40.

had obsessive, perhaps addictive tendencies, and those got the

:27:40.:27:45.

better of her. Issues that we will be discussing for weeks to come,

:27:45.:27:49.

issues that we will be addressing later in a series of Sunday Morning

:27:49.:27:53.

Live. Still to come this morning, politicians have had a rough ride

:27:53.:27:57.

recently, but as the dust settles, we are asking, should we actually

:27:57.:28:07.
:28:07.:28:24.

And he floating in our text poll. - You have around 15 minutes before

:28:24.:28:34.
:28:34.:28:36.

Now, be honest, do you cast your eye over your horoscope in a

:28:36.:28:39.

newspaper even if you think it is total hogwash? Thousands pay good

:28:39.:28:44.

money to good and bad mediums and psychics. It can bring great

:28:44.:28:47.

comfort, maybe some entertainment. Rosie Millard says that if you have

:28:47.:28:52.

got the gift, you should live up to that word and do it for proof. Here

:28:53.:29:02.
:29:03.:29:03.

I do not believe that card readers, to leave readers, astrologers for

:29:03.:29:07.

mediums have any special powers, and I think it should be illegal

:29:07.:29:14.

for them to charge for their I have got four children. I have

:29:15.:29:19.

got no idea what any of their star signs are, and if they are ill, I

:29:19.:29:23.

take them to see a doctor. Recently I had the experience of meeting a

:29:23.:29:26.

medium, and the whole thing made me very worried that he was

:29:26.:29:34.

manipulating extremely vulnerable I think it is particularly wrong in

:29:34.:29:37.

vulnerable people end up paying for these services. It encourages them

:29:37.:29:41.

to believe the twaddle that is being dished out. Why pay

:29:41.:29:46.

otherwise? If you want to believe, that is your business, but please

:29:46.:29:54.

let non-have a bill at the end of it. -- let -- let's not have a bill

:29:54.:30:04.
:30:04.:30:04.

What do you think? Do you think money making mediums should be

:30:04.:30:11.

banned? We are joined now by a Seema Malhotra, director of the

:30:11.:30:17.

Fabian women's network. Do you take them seriously? I think it is

:30:17.:30:22.

important that people have a choice. They have a choice in exploring the

:30:22.:30:25.

life and the afterlife. I don't think we can come in and say we

:30:25.:30:29.

will impose our own values and beliefs on other people. I think

:30:29.:30:33.

the idea that there is nothing after death and it is or something

:30:33.:30:39.

we should challenge, whether we can verify it, I think that is a

:30:39.:30:45.

difficult concept. I think we have to be open as a society. De believe

:30:45.:30:50.

in life after death? I think there is something and I am interested in

:30:50.:30:54.

different faiths and philosophies. I spend a lot of time exploring

:30:54.:30:58.

them. But I do not think it is up to me to impose my view on whether

:30:58.:31:04.

someone else's belief is right or wrong. 57 % of people do think

:31:04.:31:08.

there is life after death. Why do you deny them the chance to explore

:31:08.:31:14.

that further? You can explore life after death, obviously and world

:31:14.:31:18.

religions are based on the notion that there is life after death.

:31:18.:31:23.

What I think the problem is is paying someone else he says, I have

:31:23.:31:28.

the knowledge, I have a special gift and I will tell you what to do

:31:28.:31:32.

with your life, it takes the notion of self determinism out of people's

:31:32.:31:41.

hands. It takes their right for independence away from them. Let's

:31:41.:31:49.

butcher is a medium. Do you charge? Yes I do. Why do you charge if it

:31:49.:31:54.

is a gift you have? Because it is my time, it is my energy, to

:31:54.:32:00.

something I trained to do, something I trained for some time.

:32:00.:32:05.

The reason I act in a counselling role also. I spend a lot of time

:32:05.:32:10.

dealing with people who are bereft, who struggle with their grief.

:32:10.:32:16.

Having said that, I flatly refused to read for people who were

:32:16.:32:22.

perceived to be extremely vulnerable. Why do people go to

:32:22.:32:29.

mediums? If you are searching for a message from a pet dog you have,

:32:29.:32:34.

their art mediums who give messages from Peps to people who are grief-

:32:34.:32:40.

stricken, if you are searching for an answer to life, going to see a

:32:40.:32:44.

medium to have a message from Aunt Beryl about the fact that yes, you

:32:44.:32:49.

should possibly move to Stockport or give up your job, is

:32:49.:32:55.

irresponsible. These people are vulnerable anyway? I agree with a

:32:55.:33:00.

lot of what Rosie has just said. However, I do not feel you can tar

:33:00.:33:06.

everyone with the same brush. To me, medium ship is about proving life

:33:06.:33:12.

after death. You can not prove it, how can you prove it? Because you

:33:12.:33:17.

can describe the character, you can give memory links, you can talk

:33:17.:33:21.

about how they have passed to the spirit world. You can reassure the

:33:21.:33:24.

person whom you are reading for that their loved one, their friend,

:33:24.:33:32.

however it was, is no longer suffering... How can you possibly...

:33:32.:33:38.

Where is the scientific proof? is the point. Nobody, not you or

:33:38.:33:42.

anybody else can talk to the dead. It is a nonsense. You might think

:33:42.:33:48.

that you can. I have seen some of those people at work. You watch

:33:48.:33:52.

those channels. They say, anybody in the audience with feet or

:33:52.:33:56.

whatever. It is very clever, it is cold reading, it has been done for

:33:56.:34:02.

years and it is a magical trick. The notion of -- paying money for

:34:02.:34:07.

an unprovable message, it happens in religion as well. I think that

:34:07.:34:11.

is basically imposing our own beliefs. I think it is really

:34:11.:34:15.

important to be open. I will happily say I do not know if it is

:34:15.:34:20.

true that people are contacted. What I do know is that if people do

:34:20.:34:24.

make contact, or there is something which comes back that is a comfort

:34:24.:34:30.

to people, it may be true or it might not be. People have the right

:34:30.:34:35.

to exercise that. Children get nervous -- murdered because people

:34:35.:34:44.

believe there is a devil in them. want to come back to one. Macro

:34:44.:34:47.

which is what is a gift and what do charge for. You could say the same

:34:47.:34:52.

about art, you could say the same about psychology and journalism. At

:34:53.:34:55.

which point de re-sown one profession over another or

:34:55.:35:01.

something someone is interested in where the should charge for it or

:35:01.:35:05.

not. You might say politicians should be given their service for

:35:05.:35:10.

free. When people come to see you, how much do you charge and how

:35:10.:35:15.

popular is your service? Charges vary. There are some people I don't

:35:16.:35:20.

charge. I do not charge for healing. If I believe there is a genuine

:35:20.:35:24.

need and a person just need the comfort then I went charge anything

:35:24.:35:32.

at all. My services are practically now entirely word of mouth.

:35:32.:35:38.

healing. I was doing a programme with a medium and he took me to see

:35:38.:35:42.

some alternative therapists who said, if you step over this stone

:35:42.:35:46.

with your left foot, that will heal the. People with very serious

:35:46.:35:51.

diseases go to see these charlatans. We had to snort up ground-up paced

:35:51.:35:56.

through our noses, it was some South American thing. This

:35:56.:36:01.

character said people suffer from throat cancer and get a lot of help

:36:01.:36:07.

this way. This is stopping people from having proven scientific care.

:36:07.:36:15.

Next stick to the issue of mediums and psychologists. I want to talk

:36:15.:36:19.

to Professor Chris French from Goldsmiths University. There is no

:36:19.:36:26.

evidence that this is scientifically true but she says

:36:26.:36:30.

she provides a service that it is a solace to people. Psychologically,

:36:30.:36:34.

can it help? The fact is, it probably does give people some

:36:34.:36:38.

comfort, in the same way that alternative therapies which do not

:36:38.:36:42.

really work, make people feel better through a placebo effect. If

:36:42.:36:48.

it does raise a host of ethical issues. On the one hand, we would

:36:48.:36:52.

all condemn psychics who are deliberate frauds, but many of them

:36:52.:36:57.

to believe they have a special gift. You have the argument you have just

:36:57.:37:01.

made yourself fit people take comfort from it. Even though I do

:37:01.:37:04.

not for one minute believe these people have these special powers,

:37:04.:37:08.

if people take some comfort from it and they are adults and they want

:37:08.:37:11.

to pay their money on that, on the end, I have to come down on the

:37:11.:37:15.

side of the argument that says, I don't think we should ban mediums

:37:15.:37:19.

for charging for their services, even though I do not think they

:37:19.:37:24.

have this special gift. professor is right. I have done I

:37:24.:37:29.

don't have any phone-ins on this issue. People do come away with a

:37:29.:37:36.

semblance of comfort, that would be the placebo effect. The idea of

:37:36.:37:39.

banning them is a whole different issue. I have never heard one

:37:39.:37:44.

person who had a reading come away with something so unequivocal and

:37:44.:37:48.

perfect that he would have no choice but to say, clearly there is

:37:48.:37:52.

something in this. He is always very vague and it could always be

:37:52.:37:57.

applied to more than one scenario. I would disagree. I have never felt

:37:57.:38:01.

a need to talk to anyone myself but I do know people who have had tarot

:38:01.:38:06.

card readings of feel they have had communication with someone who has

:38:06.:38:11.

passed on and it is not for me to disagree or say yes or no to what

:38:11.:38:15.

happened to them. There is an irony in this debate. On the one hand we

:38:15.:38:19.

are saying, if it is a gift, don't charge, on the other hand you were

:38:19.:38:23.

saying, therefore, are you saying that we believe what you're saying,

:38:23.:38:28.

we were just should not charge for it. At which point will be saying

:38:28.:38:33.

is this a full-service or you should not charge for your time?

:38:33.:38:37.

think probably both. I think it encourages people to put their fate

:38:37.:38:44.

out of their own hands. There are links in between Clare's Law and

:38:44.:38:47.

berries and interesting link between how much are you guided in

:38:47.:38:52.

your life by your own views and your own experiences and your own

:38:52.:38:57.

intelligence, or should you put it in hands of mediums on the other

:38:57.:39:06.

hand,... Is this also about people wanting to deal with the great

:39:06.:39:10.

inevitable and it is one way of dealing with that? One thing, we

:39:10.:39:16.

all face, the inevitable and if we can tell ourselves that we can

:39:16.:39:20.

still communicate once we are on the other side, that makes people

:39:20.:39:24.

feel better, doesn't it? It is not just about communicating with

:39:24.:39:29.

people they have lost, it is something instinctive within us.

:39:29.:39:34.

would say it is something different. There is an important question

:39:34.:39:38.

about our comfort with life and our comfort with death that we know is

:39:38.:39:41.

inevitable and I think that is something which is important to

:39:41.:39:48.

people in different ways of their life to explore. I'd don't think it

:39:48.:39:51.

is about saying after my death I can communicate with the living, it

:39:51.:39:55.

is a question of saying if life is all there is and if it isn't, what

:39:55.:40:02.

does that mean for the choices I make in my life? Wendy Grossman

:40:02.:40:10.

from the skeptic magazine, it is any of that dangerous? If you think

:40:10.:40:14.

about where Amy Winehouse's mother is right now, and you can imagine

:40:14.:40:18.

somebody offering her the notion that she can connect in some way to

:40:18.:40:23.

her dead daughter and say goodbye, that is how vulnerable somebody

:40:23.:40:27.

years. I don't actually think that whether the medium charges or not

:40:27.:40:32.

is really the issue. I think the issue is much more that people are

:40:32.:40:37.

being offered something that is not necessarily true. I think the

:40:37.:40:41.

emotional damage is the same, whether they are paid or not. There

:40:41.:40:45.

are things like psychic hotlines and medium hot lines where people

:40:45.:40:49.

do make quite a bit of money and I would worry about those but I think

:40:49.:40:53.

there is a simple thing that if you catch somebody actually committing

:40:53.:41:01.

fraud, we have laws which you can prosecute on. It is difficult to

:41:01.:41:05.

prevent somebody spending their own money on something where the

:41:05.:41:09.

practitioner is deluded. Caroline has got in touch with the programme.

:41:09.:41:14.

Have you ever used a medium? Actually, I am a medium. I have

:41:14.:41:20.

used mediums myself. I am a psychic medium. And what if someone comes

:41:20.:41:22.

to you and they are incredibly vulnerable and they have lost

:41:22.:41:32.

somebody, what is your response to that person? It depends on them.

:41:32.:41:36.

Everybody is individual, as you know and their strength can be

:41:36.:41:43.

immense, even after losing somebody so close to them. I'd to weigh up

:41:43.:41:48.

as to whether they are too vulnerable or at the right time and

:41:48.:41:53.

my spirit guides will tell me this. To be truthful, I am insulted at

:41:54.:42:01.

being told or hearing that my job, my profession is a load of

:42:01.:42:05.

codswallop. It is not just a profession. You had better get used

:42:05.:42:09.

to it. You are talking about something a bit more fundamental

:42:09.:42:13.

than a bit of a job, you are talking about the ability to

:42:13.:42:18.

communicate with the other side. If it did not go into such emotional

:42:18.:42:23.

territory as we have talked about, it would be laughable. You are

:42:23.:42:27.

coming on national television and saying, look at me, I can do

:42:27.:42:32.

miracles. No, excuse me. Have you ever spoken to a medium? Have you

:42:32.:42:38.

ever had a reading? I have spoken to a medium. He had a spirit guide

:42:38.:42:42.

with him. The thing is, have you had a reading where that

:42:42.:42:46.

information which has come from that medium, was spot on? If not,

:42:46.:42:52.

then you have gone to the wrong medium. And you keep going to them

:42:52.:42:57.

until you get a good one, is that what you are saying? They do not

:42:57.:43:00.

know that you, how did they know the information they are giving

:43:00.:43:07.

you? It is called cold reading, religion has done it for years.

:43:07.:43:13.

Next let her finish. Briefly. not claiming that I am the be-all

:43:13.:43:18.

and end-all and I am godly. This is a gift that I have, just like a

:43:18.:43:24.

painter, an artist, a musician, a body like that. I have never had

:43:24.:43:29.

anybody complain to make that what I have told them is wrong. Thank

:43:29.:43:35.

you. I want to go to some of these comments from viewers. Cardiff on

:43:35.:43:39.

Twitter says mediums claim it is a gift they have been given, gifts

:43:39.:43:45.

are free, they say, no charge. June says she is a medium and does not

:43:46.:43:52.

charge and mediums should be regulated. And Ian on Twitter says

:43:52.:43:56.

mediums fill a demand as do psychologists. Both offer opinions

:43:57.:44:01.

which are left to interpretation by the recipient. Rosie, do you think

:44:01.:44:05.

everything should be scientifically verified before somebody is allowed

:44:05.:44:11.

to be charged for it, or sometimes do like not knowing. What about a

:44:11.:44:14.

magic show? We all know we are being conned to some extent but we

:44:14.:44:19.

pay for it. It is entertainment. People do not go to mediums for

:44:19.:44:25.

entertainment, they go for guidance and that is completely wrong. On

:44:25.:44:29.

what basis are they giving the guidance? I think there is a very

:44:29.:44:33.

different question and there is a question where we should challenge

:44:33.:44:36.

what people using mediums for. Whether or not you want guidance,

:44:36.:44:41.

you should be strong in your own life by your choices and your

:44:41.:44:47.

understanding, but what did you go for a medium for his, I think, and

:44:47.:44:51.

whether it does you good or whether it helps you is something that I

:44:51.:44:55.

think he can challenge about what you're hearing and will how you are

:44:55.:44:59.

using that information. I do think regulation is important and I do

:44:59.:45:02.

think we should be able to have a conversation with people who might

:45:02.:45:06.

use mediums and what they believe and why they believe it without

:45:06.:45:12.

outright rejection. Tarot card reading is an area of possible

:45:12.:45:22.
:45:22.:45:22.

sites we do not know enough about. If David Cameron had been second,

:45:22.:45:26.

he would not have needed hindsight? Should we be proud of our political

:45:26.:45:30.

leaders? You have been voting in our text bold, should we have a

:45:30.:45:36.

right to know about our partner's violent past. Please do not vote

:45:36.:45:41.

now, you will still be charged but Joe vote will not count. We will

:45:41.:45:45.

renew the result at the end of the programme.

:45:45.:45:49.

Since the MPs' expenses scandal, politicians hold a place in our

:45:49.:45:52.

content usually reserved for journalists, bankers and estate

:45:52.:45:57.

agents. But he is a thought, are we too quick to have a go at men and

:45:57.:46:00.

women already get heckled and ridiculed for a living? Should we

:46:00.:46:08.

be proud of our politicians? Ought to think they have lost the plot? -

:46:08.:46:18.
:46:18.:46:18.

The won declares famine in Somalia. -- the UN. Europe and America

:46:18.:46:26.

teeter on the edge of financial meltdown. Xinhua, in the mother of

:46:26.:46:30.

all parliaments, our politicians squabble over phone-hacking. --

:46:30.:46:40.
:46:40.:46:43.

Order! I say to members who are now heckling, think of what the public

:46:43.:46:50.

thinks of our behaviour. Order! And stop it! But how well behaved would

:46:50.:46:54.

you be if you are fighting to hold on to your job? And fighting to

:46:54.:46:57.

stop one mistake derailing everything you and your party stand

:46:57.:47:05.

for? It is not just the hacking scandal. Our leader's' Rees and U-

:47:05.:47:12.

turns have brought a lot of anger, sacrificing principles for power. -

:47:12.:47:18.

- Recent. I have done a lot of my own, and they should be done with

:47:18.:47:21.

panache! Politicians used to stick to their convictions, even if it

:47:21.:47:26.

riled the public. I am telling you, you cannot play politics with

:47:26.:47:36.

people's jobs and with people's services! U-turn if you want to.

:47:36.:47:41.

The lady is not for turning. modern politics sometimes requires

:47:41.:47:45.

people to change their minds, reflect on their mistakes and shift

:47:45.:47:49.

position when necessary. And our legendary leaders did not have to

:47:49.:47:53.

put up with 24 hour news examining every detail of their private lives

:47:53.:47:59.

and public statements. So have our political leaders let us down and

:47:59.:48:04.

betrayed their principles? Or, slightly to our surprise, have they

:48:04.:48:10.

done us proud? Amber Elliott is political editor for total politics

:48:10.:48:15.

magazine. A morally bankrupt bunch what does your heart swell when you

:48:15.:48:19.

watch them? I am not quite sure that its rules, but I am quite

:48:19.:48:23.

proud of our politicians. They work very hard on a day-to-day basis,

:48:23.:48:27.

and while I have weeks when I am more proud of them, they too will

:48:27.:48:30.

lot of good work and a lot of good work that is not noticed by the

:48:30.:48:38.

majority. David Craig is author of Fleece, which gives some insight

:48:38.:48:43.

into what he thinks! Are you proud? Do they do a good job for us?

:48:43.:48:48.

at all. What I saw last week was a bunch of shameless, self-serving,

:48:48.:48:53.

self-righteous fools who were trying to gain the moral high

:48:53.:48:57.

ground in an attempt to get back some of the credibility that they

:48:57.:49:01.

have deservedly lost through their own greed and incompetence. Does

:49:01.:49:08.

any politician or political leader, do you hold any up as a role model?

:49:08.:49:13.

My worry is that our politicians have become part of a self-serving

:49:13.:49:16.

club, an elite that has doubled in size over the last 10 years. At the

:49:16.:49:20.

same time, we are paying for twice as many people in the political

:49:20.:49:24.

class than we did 10 years ago. At the same time, the percentage of

:49:24.:49:31.

our laws made by the European Union has gone up from 30% up to 80%. We

:49:31.:49:36.

are paying twice as many people to do half as much work. They are not

:49:36.:49:40.

hard-working, they have increased their holidays up to 100 days be it.

:49:40.:49:43.

They have reduced the number of hours they sit in Parliament. This

:49:43.:49:47.

idea of them being hard-working public servants is rubbish. Jimani

:49:47.:49:51.

and they do not do enough. The idea that they had six weeks' holiday,

:49:51.:49:57.

they are not on holiday. They are back in their constituencies, the

:49:57.:50:01.

majority of them, dealing with constituency work. They are

:50:01.:50:04.

available more to people now than when they are travelling to and

:50:04.:50:10.

from Parliament. I think David's point is right. If you look at the

:50:10.:50:14.

three main parties, you have this homogenised, liberalised, vacuous,

:50:15.:50:20.

platitudinous mess of an attempt at finding centre ground. You look

:50:20.:50:23.

back at Neil Kinnock at his absolute best, trying to get rid of

:50:23.:50:30.

the Militant tendency, people walking out, Thatcher, the opposing

:50:30.:50:35.

force of our political system, but there is none of that any more.

:50:35.:50:39.

it didn't do Neil Kinnock any good? Without Kinnock, there would not

:50:39.:50:42.

have been Tony Blair, the whole New Labour experiment only worked

:50:42.:50:47.

because of what Kinnock did so brilliantly. But he was going for

:50:47.:50:57.
:50:57.:51:00.

the centre ground. That centre ground has now been taken up by

:51:00.:51:03.

absolutely every one. People have become less passionate about

:51:03.:51:08.

politics. We live in an age of soundbites. Politicians played to

:51:08.:51:14.

that. We also live in a peaceful age. I think it is easier for a

:51:14.:51:18.

politician to be moral, to be virtuous if they are leaving their

:51:18.:51:21.

country in a time of absolute crisis. You know, people look at

:51:21.:51:26.

Churchill and so he was amazing in the war. Well, that was a

:51:26.:51:30.

completely unrealistic comparison with now. The other thing is, I

:51:30.:51:35.

think politicians are off with very good intentions. I mean, look at

:51:35.:51:39.

Barack Obama, the saviour of the Western world. When they get into

:51:39.:51:43.

office, the necessity of modern-day politics, currying favour, dealing

:51:43.:51:50.

with people, accepting different sorts of deals with in your group,

:51:50.:51:55.

it means that you end up with a slightly bastardisation of your

:51:55.:51:59.

original concept. That is politics, it is about negotiation and

:51:59.:52:05.

compromise. By the health situation with Obama. He has not been able to

:52:05.:52:10.

put in his reforms. He has ended up with a fudge. Is that inevitable?

:52:10.:52:14.

Is that something we need to be proud of? It depends on the issue.

:52:14.:52:18.

You do have to negotiate at times, but look at the Norwegian Prime

:52:18.:52:22.

Minister at a time of crisis. He says the only way to go through

:52:22.:52:26.

this is by having more democracy, improve democracy, that is how we

:52:26.:52:31.

act. That was really staring stuff. When you say democracy, does that

:52:31.:52:35.

the more politicians agreeing? Cameron has got a great opportunity

:52:35.:52:38.

with what has happened with the Brussels bailout to make some

:52:38.:52:44.

alterations to our relationship with Europe. We could have a no, no,

:52:44.:52:49.

no moment from Mr Cameron. About 70% of the country would support

:52:49.:52:53.

that, but it is not going to happen because he is scared witless of the

:52:53.:52:58.

liberal media, that level of Don and Coventry -- dominant commentary

:52:58.:53:04.

in the media. I do not think years. He is scared of you! Dr Victoria

:53:04.:53:08.

and Damon is a lecture in British politics who has studied this area.

:53:08.:53:13.

Some people say that Ed Miliband, in the last week, has shown of

:53:13.:53:19.

moral leadership, moral backbone. He has only achieved a very slight

:53:19.:53:25.

bump in his popularity rating. Does the British public really want

:53:25.:53:30.

politicians to look strong and moral? I think so. We would like

:53:30.:53:34.

our politicians to look strong and moral. However, Ben are other

:53:35.:53:39.

things we consider important in politicians. -- there. Morality

:53:39.:53:43.

varies from person to person, it depends on your political viewpoint

:53:43.:53:46.

sometimes, so the fact that Miliband's rating has only gone up

:53:46.:53:49.

fractionally should not suggest we are an immoral country, simply that

:53:49.:53:54.

some of us believe his morals are correct, some have different views.

:53:54.:53:58.

That is exactly true. We have a situation where half the commentary

:53:58.:54:02.

was so proud of Ed Miliband, for standing up, taking on Murdoch, but

:54:03.:54:06.

the other half are saying, this is just because he wants to win votes.

:54:06.:54:10.

It is very hard for a politician, when they make a move like this,

:54:10.:54:16.

not to seem false. That is very true. For my money, the one who

:54:16.:54:20.

seems most false is Nick Clegg. He has basically abandoned so many for

:54:20.:54:24.

the principles of his party. It is a coalition, that is what you have

:54:24.:54:28.

to do. The Tories have abandoned theirs. It does not mean he is not

:54:28.:54:34.

moral. Which one of his policies have got through? None of them.

:54:35.:54:37.

Rosie, on the one hand, you could say that he has committed a

:54:37.:54:42.

political sin by jettisoning something he was very proud of, but

:54:42.:54:46.

others might say that he may be necessary political compromise,

:54:46.:54:49.

showed political bravery by doing something very difficult. This is

:54:49.:54:52.

the trouble of politicians, isn't it? It can be interpreted either

:54:52.:54:58.

way. But once in power, he has proved a weak force, and he has not

:54:58.:55:02.

put forward the principles of his party. Is he a good example a bad

:55:02.:55:06.

example? The problem with Nick Clegg is he is a difficult moral

:55:06.:55:10.

example, because at the end of the day he went back on some of his

:55:10.:55:13.

manifesto pledges in the interest of their country. He has been

:55:13.:55:17.

steamrollered by the Tories. think he is learning that, but we

:55:17.:55:23.

have things like the pupil premium, and the Lib Dems have so little

:55:23.:55:27.

money to push out their message that sometimes it is the

:55:27.:55:30.

mechanisation that affect them, rather than the fact that he is not

:55:30.:55:38.

doing good. Rosie, do you have political heroes? Not really.

:55:38.:55:42.

quite difficult to have a political hero now, I think. If you look

:55:42.:55:46.

across the House of Commons, what you see, sadly, there of people,

:55:46.:55:50.

Dennis in on one side, a few characters on the other, but there

:55:50.:55:54.

is no volatile it -- polarisation in politics. If we are not proud of

:55:54.:55:58.

our politicians, we are teaching a generation of people that they

:55:58.:56:02.

should not go into it. mentioned Ed Miliband, and if the

:56:02.:56:07.

leader of the opposition cannot or with an open goal by saying, Andy

:56:07.:56:10.

Coulson, Andy Coulson, he banged on about it all week. And yet across

:56:10.:56:15.

the water, a huge issue with financials, the euro, the global

:56:15.:56:22.

economy, hardly a word spoken about it. A couple of tweets, I lost

:56:22.:56:26.

faith when the Liberals made such a big deal of pledging not to raise

:56:26.:56:30.

tuition fees. Matt and London, until the politicians fix things, I

:56:30.:56:38.

will not be proud of them. It is about status. We should not have to

:56:38.:56:41.

me -- to make an effort to be proud of them. They should make us proud.

:56:41.:56:45.

We will see whether they bring us cause for pride or shame over the

:56:45.:56:49.

next week. Meanwhile, the results of the vote has come in. We ask

:56:49.:56:53.

that the beginning of the programme, do we have the right to know a part

:56:53.:56:59.

of's violent past, and this is what you told us. 81% of those who

:56:59.:57:05.

texted in said that yes, we should have the right to know. 19% no, we

:57:05.:57:10.

should not. That rather flies in the face of your argument. I think

:57:10.:57:14.

the question... There is something about the way the question is

:57:14.:57:19.

raised, and that is always the way it works. Should you have the right

:57:19.:57:24.

to know somebody is violent? If you put it like that, yes. But the

:57:24.:57:27.

greater picture of what it says about society, the state, he was

:57:27.:57:34.

watching, who we check up on, more databases, more lists... Let's get

:57:34.:57:38.

back to individual responsibility. I know that there are tough

:57:38.:57:40.

scenarios that come out of that, but as he said at the beginning,

:57:41.:57:44.

but more is what we are talking about, that cannot ever make good

:57:44.:57:49.

law. Thank you for getting in touch with us this morning. Thank you to

:57:49.:57:53.

my guests who have taken part, Rosie Millard, Amber Elliott, Ian

:57:53.:58:00.

Collins and of course Donna Dawson. Please do not text or call the

:58:00.:58:04.

phone lines any more because they are closed. You can continue the

:58:04.:58:09.

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