Episode 6 Sunday Morning Live

I'm Anita Anand standing in for Naga Munchetty.

On today's programme: Murder at the altar.

The world was shocked by the merciless killing in France

Big bosses took a beating this week with a report

Former Dragon Hilary Devey is breathing fire about boardroom

The internet - a forum for free speech or a licence to abuse?

As more MPs are targeted online, how can we control internet trolls?

And comedian Francesca Martinez tells Hardeep Singh Kohli

why she refuses to be defined by disability.

Apparently when I was a baby, the doctor told my parents that I would

never lead a normal life. Who wants a normal life? I want an amazing

life! is back so he can share

all your thoughts with us. Welcome to Sunday Morning Live. This

is your show and your chance to get involved. Whatever you are thinking

or feeling, share it with us. This is how you can get in touch:

Most Reverand Archbishop Kevin McDonald is the former Archbishop

of Southwark and director of the Catholic Bishops' Office

Rabbi Miriam Berger is a rabbi at Finchley Reform Synagogue, London.

Terry Waite is an author and former envoy to the Archbishop

of Canterbury who spent nearly five years held hostage

Hanif Qadir is the CEO and founder of The Active Change Foundation,

an organisation that works with young people

Kevin, if I may turn to you first. How on earth does the Catholic

Church respond to something with such horrific symbolism? Murder on

an altar. I think the way in which the Catholic Church has reacted is

very significant. As you say, this was a uniquely horrific event, to

attack a priest, an elderly priest, actually saying Mass, and the way in

which he was killed, I think there has been horror throughout the

world. What has been very interesting has been the way in

which leaders have responded. The Archbishop of Rouen return from

Poland and he said the only response is prayer and the search for

reconciliation. The President of the Bishops' conference of France and

the Archbishop of Marseille talked about the need to create a

civilisation of love. In England, very significantly, Cardinal Nichols

made a statement together with Muslim leaders, in which they

expressed horror at the event and call for reconciliation. The

response has not been aggressive, it has not been hostile, adversarial,

but it has been a call to go to the very roots of what needs to happen

and what we need to create. We will pick up on many of those threads in

a moment. This week Pope Francis said

the world is at war but stressed However, in the aftermath

of the murder of an 86-year-old Catholic priest, Father Jacques

Hamel, at the altar of his church places of worship have good reason

to be apprehensive. While leaders of mosques

and synagogues are no stranger to security strategies,

how should churches respond? And what can communities in Britain

do about the threat of lone figures Is the solution the Government's

Prevent programme, a counter-terrorism strategy that

has been criticised for encouraging people to report on individuals

suspected of having radical views? Or does this do little more

than cultivate a climate This weekend sees one of the biggest

gatherings of Muslims in the UK and Tommy Sandhu went

there to gauge opinion. We are at the Living Islam festival

in Lincolnshire where about 3000 people are gathering over four days

for festival fun. You can see that it is mainly a family event but

there are also discussions being had, and with recent attacks around

the world, we want to know how it has affected the Muslim community

here in the UK. When I read the story of what happened to father

Jacques Hamel, I was horrified. People are using the name of

something that is supposed to be very peaceful and beautiful, and

radicalising it in a bad name. I feel that every individual

represents themselves and so I don't feel like all Muslims are

responsible for the actions of a fuel. One of the projects introduced

by the government to counter the threat of terrorism is the Prevent

scheme. Mr Ek Balz leads it here. It is about stopping people from

getting involved in or supporting terrorism. It is about all forms of

violent extremism and terrorism, and it is not about a particular racial

group or religion. It is so hard to define what radicalisation really is

because it is so broad. Prevent has had a bit of criticism because of

that. What do you say to the people who are not fans of what you are

doing? There is criticism and people ask if it is working and it

absolutely is. We have examples from grassroots

projects where people said they were ready to go to Syria and they have

ripped up their tickets. Are you aware of Prevent? Yes, I am aware of

it. How good is their job? There is more that can be done but they are

making a positive effort. That had a negative impact on the Muslims and

their community in Britain. Prevent is viewed with a degree of

suspicion. It seems to be focused exclusively on Muslims. What could

be done to stop radicalisation? Genuinely, I think people should be

taught more about Islam, and have more events like this. We have got

to work twice as hard to make sure our communities are together, all

across Britain, that we work together and build friendships and

bridges. I have belief and I have bullied because I am here today at

such a beautiful event that British Muslims can congregate unite to

spread a message of peace and love. One of the ladies in that clip was

saying that as Muslims we feel like we have got to work twice as hard.

Is that the impression you are getting? Yes, it is, and I think she

is right. We do have to work twice as hard. It is a shame that we have

to but it is a reality. If we don't try to bring young men and women

together under a common objective of peace and cohesion, then we can

allow people to manipulate those young minds. So we have got to work

twice as hard as anyone else. Terry Waite, the spiritual leaders, the

Pope, we started talking about him, they are at great pains to say this

is not a war of religion, these are not religious men. That sense of

cohesion, that message, is clearly coming from the top. Yes, I don't

think it is a war of religion as such. I think it has many routes,

which are complex and difficult to deal with. I think one also needs to

remember that it isn't only... We hear of this tragic, tragic death in

France which has appalled all decent people everywhere. We also need to

remember that there are many hundreds, thousands, of followers of

the Islamic faith who are suffering dreadfully, who are being held

hostage virtually, by extremist groups. So it isn't just a war of

religion, although religious factors enter into it. Some of the disputes

internally in the region between the various groups in Islam make a

contribution to this. Sure. The thing is that what goes on far away

feels like it is removed from people, but these are tax that

happen in Europe. They feel closer. -- attacks. In synagogues, having

security at the door has been very real. Tell me what it feels like to

have that when you go and worship. It is something that the Jewish

community really takes for granted. A large part of the budget of any

synagogue or Jewish institution is taken up with security. As somebody

who went to a Jewish primary school all those years ago with big gates

and security guards, it has always been part of my life. You get used

to it? Yes, but it cannot possibly be that the response to hate attacks

should be that everybody should follow suit and upped their game

with security. We have got to be able to respond in a way that gets

to the root of why we need that security, and not think we can

counter it with more security. But that discussion takes time. If you

want people to carry on coming to places of worship... Are you

considering availing yourself of the government part in the Catholic

Church? Barbed wire and high security fences? Is that sensible?

The first thing to say is that security has been an issue for

churches for a long time. Before anybody had heard of Isis. Maths is

a public event, whether it is a wedding or a funeral. -- Mass. It is

not a private gathering so there are limits to what you can do. When I

was a parish priest, we closed the church because somebody broke in and

attacked the crib figures. I had great regrets about doing that. A

Catholic Church is a place of prayer. People want to go and pray

there. It would be tragic if that dimension of Catholic life was

excluded or limited. And it is also not just about the formal service.

It is a place of century. You think a church should have its doors open,

and likewise a mosque. But there are greater incidence of attacks on

Muslim places of worship. In the Muslim community, are you thinking

that the way we have done things is not the way we can continue to do

things? Sad though it is, and shocking and appalling, it is no

surprise that faith houses and religious institutions have been

attacked. Throughout Jerusalem we have seen that, in the Middle East,

Pakistan, Africa. In the UK we have seen attacks on synagogues, churches

and mosques. It is a shame but that is the reality we are living in.

Look at the threats posed by extremist groups, and the call for

arms by Isis scholars. We haven't really got a definition for

extremism. That seems to be the issue. Terry Waite, what do you

define as extremism? Is it saying I disagree with foreign policy and I

am going to fight in Syria? Or I agree with the fighters in Syria? I

don't like foreign policy. Where is the line? I think sometimes the line

is drawn to strictly in terms of relationships with people who might

be called extremists. If you are going to get a solution to these

problems, at some point there has got to be dialogue and talking. One

of the real difficulties, if I may say, about the Israeli- Palestinian

issue, which is a place I have been many times, both to Israel and

Palestine, is that it is extremely difficult now for the groups to get

together, because of the climate of hatred on both sides. Dislike on

both sides. There are not enough minutes on this programme to get

into the Palestine issue. One thing that you have brought up with Miriam

and something that you firmly believe in, the preventing strategy.

Not barbed wire and dealing with the aftermath strategy. Is it fair to

ask teachers in schools to inform the Home Office if a child is saying

something deemed to be iffy? I think we have got to get to the bottom of

where views come from and why children are expressing views,

because they are unlikely to have made them up themselves. I think

teachers have an obligation to report... Teachers say all the time

it is not their job to be policemen. They might not be acting as

policemen that they are acting in the best interests of the welfare of

their students and students have got to be given an opportunity to speak

and express and have their ideas and packed. We saw that from the film

and you must hear that all the time, that kind of thing rankle deeply

with the Muslim community, that basically kids are being spied on.

It is a difficult task and a challenge and I understand where

Miriam is coming from and I have been working with Prevent since

2003. Radicalisation and extremism is a process of conversations. If we

shut down those conversations, it is like Miriam has said. We have got to

let young people express themselves, in a manner where it does not create

violence and intolerance of another person or faith. If we don't allow

the discussion to take place, then we are going to push the problem

under the carpet and it will resurface. Those conversations will

be taking place in other areas and environments and it will not be

shaped bypass or positive people. Let me get the Archbishop's take on

this. About that extremism video, I don't think they would have seen it

as an extremist... Really, you think they wouldn't have? In the sense

that they are not true... Most Muslims would say that Isis are not

true to Islamic principles, that's the point I'm making. Obviously that

the background and the origin of it but what they're doing is something

utterly modern, utterly of our time, and I'm sure they were right in

saying that in terms of the Druids -- the traditions of Islam, it has

no place. Right. And yet there is an attraction, there are young people

going from this country and joining Isis, it is a fact. We got it right?

Have we got away in which we look out for these things and come down

on these things, have we got that balance right? Shaking your head.

First of all, I don't think we should overreact, going back a step.

One of the tactics being used at the moment is in fact to get a reaction

from our communities in this country and to begin to eat away, if you

like, at some of our traditional values, freedom of speech and so on.

One of the answers to it of course is to improve dialogue, to improve

understanding, to improve education between people, between the

different groups of this country. Looking at another situation going

back to Northern Ireland, in Northern Ireland, people were able

to shelter in the community because they were not... They were protected

by the families. Why were you shaking your head? The reason I'm

shaking my head is that, if you asked me if you years ago how

Prevent was working, I would say it was working remarkably well. We had

that connection with local authorities and communities and the

way we gauged with our communities was working fantastically well. The

way it's working out is that there's knowing gateman with the police any

more. There's no community interaction. What was the breaking

point in that, then? In the last two-year is we've had a rapid

decline in community engagement by the police and the authorities. The

police just aren't talking? The way that Prevent is being orchestrated

now, we were a beacon of hope in terms of preventing radicalisation.

We've moved well away from that and we're now going in the opposite

direction, we're going... Because of the measures police are taking now,

there is no more dialogue, discussion, interaction between

police and communities and because that we're pushing these further

away. You've been sending us your texts and tweets on this. Quite

literally, people are just saying simply condemn murder, web however

it is committed. Anita. Thank you very much indeed.

One of those points, that we don't hear enough condemnation from the

Muslim community... It's interesting, there has been a call

in France from the Muslim community, saying they must attend Mass today

and one of those killers has been refused a Muslim burial in France as

well. Do we just ink that there isn't condemnation from Muslims, or

is there a serious point that, Archbishop? Well, the thing about

Islam, it doesn't have the kind of leadership... People might be

looking for someone like a Pope or even an Archbishop of Canterbury,

someone who can speak in the name of the religion. There is no parallel

structure in Islam. There isn't anybody who's position I think

requires... There is nobody who is invested by the whole of Islam with

authority to speak on behalf of Islam and that's what people are

looking for. That isn't there. It's also a fine line that says that by

expecting the Muslim community to condemn, there is an association

also being made that the perpetrators want that association

because it's a propaganda debate as well. That's very interesting. So do

we do what some countries are advocating, which is staffed the

oxygen of publicity, don't show their places, don't say their names,

don't talk about them so publicly, these attackers? Is that the way

forward? Don't play into the fear that we are clearly being fed, that

this is a Muslim who has grown up in this European country or this is an

immigrant who had come in... We are being fed the lies that these are

people we must fear. Why the Muslim community of those countries

standing up and say we must condemn, it suggests we are in some way

connected. I think it's a fine line of expectation as well. Let's just

go back to you, what is the way forward? If you have heard of the

not in my name campaign, it reached over 300 million people and every

single nation on this planet followed that campaign. If Muslim

communities aren't standing up and condemning this, I don't know who

is. We don't ask the Christian community when something is done in

the name of Christianity, or the Jewish community, to apologise or

condemn. It's right that we need to separate the faith from the killing,

whether it's in the name of a killing or not. There is a lot being

done by Muslim communities but because we're allowing it to have

the air, we're giving people an opportunity to say these kind of

things, which is pushing people onto the back foot and that is an

uncomfortable position to be in because it does feed the extremist

narrative. Thank you all very much indeed and thank you for your

comments. Keep them coming in. Vicky Balch, who lost a leg

in an accident at Alton Towers, tells us how she has been targeted

by online abuse. The trolls were saying things like I

was milking the accident and I need to get over my accident, what

happened was awful but I need to get over it now, they are sick of seeing

my face. Francesca Francesca Martinez is a comedian,

an actress, a writer, a campaigner But Francesca simply describes that

as being a bit wobbly. Though she was bullied

at school, she refused to be Francesca has written a book about

her attitude to life. Hardeep Singh Kohli went to meet

Francesca to find out what lies behind her

formidable stage presence. Hello! Francesca commit you speak

incredibly fondly of your childhood. What made it so if you lick?

I was very, very loved. -- what made it so idyllic. Being wobbly was

really not an issue to me. I didn't feel disabled or abnormal in anyway.

I felt incredibly capable. I had lots of friends. I loved to laugh

and be quite cheeky and I loved to have fun. You had a really good sort

of younger childhood but rings changed quite dramatically when you

went to big school. There is nothing like an all girls high school to

bash out all your confidence. I got the biggest shock in the world,

which was, "Wow, I live in a culture that views being abnormal and all

the things that I viewed as being unimportant like how I moved, how I

balked, how I talked, they suddenly became the defining factor. So I

quickly lost all my confidence and I adopted their view of me. So I

viewed myself as abnormal, as freakish, I thought I didn't have

any friends, I thought no one would ever loved me. It was a complete

turnaround for me in terms of my self perception. How did you, having

had the confidence knocked out of you, how did you come back to where

you are? I got a part in Grange Hill when I was 14. You did a brilliant

job, there's no need for you to cry... She just... I know.

It took me out of that negative high school environment for roughly nine

months of the year. So it had this huge impact on me. Some of my

confidence came back and I made friends. It also gave me a glimmer

of hope in that I thought, maybe I could be a performer professionally.

I'm getting into my car and this taxi driver pulls up right beside

me. He says, don't do it! And I'm like, do what? And he says, don't

drink and drive! Getting into stand-up can be daunting for most

people. What made you want to do it? Well, I kind of stumbled into it. My

dad wrote a script where he made my character a stand-up comedian. I

read this script and said that, this is incredible, I could never be a

comedian, are you mad? He was like, I think you would be really good. I

went to a comedy workshop as research, purely research... But

then I somehow was persuaded to do a little gig. Even though I was

completely terrified, I felt this profound sense of wow, this is

amazing, this is what I'm meant to do. I asked a guy what normal was to

him, and he said, normal is a cycle on a washing machine!

The thing about stand-up is, you can't be fake, like, you've got to

be you. The self acceptance was not trying to be fit in and be normal.

It was in fact just going, this is me and being honest about who I was

and not hiding it and not being ashamed of it. And I really believe

that the way to confidence and happiness for all of us is to accent

who we are and to appreciate everything we have.

What are you doing in this? What, Judith? She said what are you doing

in this? Oh, background artist! What was your decision to take the role

in Extras. I love that cringes humour and as long as there was my

character had comebacks... And what does that entail? What does

that entail? Just standing round, really. It's not what I do, I'm a

real actor, this is just pocket money. Yeah, but they all say

that... It's so lacking in diversity, it

shows such a narrow band of humanity. I really appreciated the

fact that Ricky wasn't ignoring it and he wanted to actually deal with

that head on. You've had a remarkable journey so far in life.

What do you hope other people have taken from your example? I think the

most valuable thing I ever learnt was to think for myself. To question

the accepted norm and attitudes of society. I realised that those

battles with insecurity and self-acceptance, they had nothing to

do with being wobbly and everything to do with living in this culture.

Apparently, when I was a baby, the doctor told my parents that I would

never lead a normal life. I was like, who wants a normal life? I

want an amazing life! Knowledge is power and once you

understand the mechanisms at work, you can liberate yourself. I learned

to say I am absolutely find a way I am. Francesca Martinez, there.

This week saw the release of a parliamentary report

into the collapse of the high street chain BHS.

The report, a damning indictment of the former BHS

owner Sir Philip Green, heavily criticised his actions

in the sale of the high street chain for ?1.

The report also outlined how the demise of BHS has left 11,000

people facing the loss of their jobs and put the pensions

In his parliamentary evidence back in June, Sir Philip said

that he wanted to find a solution for the pensioners.

The report now says that he has a moral duty to do just that.

In the wake of the report, a spokeswoman for the Prime Minister

said that she wanted to reform capitalism to make sure it works

for everyone, not just the privileged few.

But in a challenging economic environment is there such a thing

Joining the panel is Dawn Foster, a business economics journalist

and author of Lean Out, a book about feminism,

Hilary Devey is a businesswoman and former Dragon

Mark Littlewood is the director general of the Institute

of Economic Affairs, a free market think-tank.

Thank you very much. Shall we call it as it is? There is no room for

conscience in capitalism. Absolutely not. It makes me almost incandescent

with rage to hear that set. Certainly all the businesses I am

involved with have a huge corporate social responsibility. Yes,

businesses trade for profit, but my goal as CEO of those businesses is

to make sure that I retain the employment of all my employees, and

to do that, it has got to make a profit. But profits don't

necessarily go to the people who work for the business. Not you, you

must be lovely to work for! But an unscrupulous boss, with shareholders

to answer for, an unforgiving balance sheet, the value of the

workers and the customers goes down. I don't think it does go down. As a

boss, you have got to balance several things. Sometimes we think

chasing a profit is chasing numbers, but to make a profit you have got to

keep a lot of people happy. You have got to provide goods and services to

your customer at a high enough quality and low enough price

that they voluntarily buy it. You have got to retain a workforce who

are motivated and productive, and you have got to show a rate of

return for the people who have had the guts and courage to invest in

you. That is a balancing act. To suggest that is unconscionable

activity, that you cannot be a principled person, I think treating

your staff and customers well and given your shareholders a good

return is a perfectly ethical way to behave, and exactly how most

business people do behave. So everything is fine in the kingdom

and there is nothing to worry about? I hope so and I wish it were. There

has got to be a sense that business bosses these days are the new

clergy. Retail is no longer just therapy but the new religion. Plenty

of people will have been in shops this weekend, more than mosques and

synagogues around the country. I think there has got to be a sense of

understanding that those businesses set an agenda and a culture in

society, and when business leaders are seen to be avoiding their social

principles, and not contributing back to society, that is taken on by

the rest of society. Is it really naive, completely naive to say that

you want to do the right thing? Should there be a legal stick to

make people do the right thing? Do we need more of that? I think so,

definitely. Since the 2008 recession we have

seen the government pushing for more profits, as though that is the only

way to get out of this as though the government cannot do things

themselves. Regulations have been pulled away. I have spoken to a lot

of women who have been laid off a legally and they cannot take their

employers to the tribunal because ?150 tribunal fees have been brought

in. We are in an hourglass economy where a lot of people are very poor

and very rich and there is the squeezed middle. The people at the

top, the workers are valued, but at the bottom, you are expendable. I

can feel the heat coming off Hilary! Capitalism does create growth. And

it brings people out of poverty. You have just got to look at China. Back

in 1980, 80% of people lived in abject poverty. Today it is less

than 10%. Why? Because the economy thrived. Capitalism has grown.

Therefore it has benefited all. The benefits system picks up the flag of

profits in big business, so people are not earning a proper wage, they

are doing long days. I don't know which company you have been

associated with but the people in my company have a contract to do a set

number of hours and they take the necessary breaks and we are governed

anyway by the working time directive. Are you paying the London

living wage? Rather than analysing Hilary's business, which is

interesting, let's look at the one that kick-started the conversation,

PHS, and the obligation of somebody that had that company, sold it, and

walks away with quite a lot of money in their pockets, and a pension

scheme that may not be fulfilled. What are the obligations in that

case? I think we have got to be clear here. Talking about legal

sticks to hit people with. What legal obligations do we think that's

a Philip Green in this case, or any CEO, goes to their staff in terms of

pension contributions, and what about the people that they sell the

business on to? Rather than bringing in Philip Green for a fight on

television, I want policymakers to address those points. It might be

wise for a business that starts to fail to say, you know what? We're

not going to contribute to the pension fund this month. We need to

relaunch or rebrand the company so it doesn't go bust. If you sell on

the company, what obligations do you have? If I sell on my flat, I don't

have to vouch for the neighbourliness of the people that

buy it so why should they? Then need to be clear rules. I can't believe

my ears. You are asking for more regulations. I would love them to be

clear! We have the longest tax code in the world that nobody can

understand. We need less but it has got to be clearer. This spat

continues overnight between Frank Field, an MP, who has carpeted

Philip Green in public, and Philip Green who has spoken to Mr Leonard

friends. You should be in no doubt, any decision relies on a voluntary

decision to support the pensions because there is no legal liability

to support the schemes. He does not sound like he cares at all about the

people sitting at home worried about how they will clear the next payment

and which job they will get and how they will provide for their

families. To be quite honest, I do feel for those pensioners. I can't

speak for Sir Philip Green, and I only know what I would do myself. I

would certainly find a way of paying them. There is a problem here. We

have a pensions protection fund. This is the equivalent of a travel

agency arrangement to make sure you can get home if you are on holiday

and your airline goes bust. Has Sir Philip Green and did BHS abide by

the terms of that? That is the backstop that you have got. If they

didn't, there should be litigation from the pensions regulator to Sir

Philip Green. We just need the simple rules of contract to get this

sorted. But there is a heartbeat obligation. These people worked for

a long time for a shop that he was in charge of and he kind of owes it

to them. Are we going to apply that to every businessman? If you are a

shop owner employing four people and the shop goes bust, how much do you

owe them if it goes bust? OK, but this is not four people. We see this

again and again. Sports director announced huge bonuses for all their

staff and it turned out they meant staff on particular contract and 90%

would be excluded. Time and again we see businessman with no moral duty.

It is wrong not to condemn Sir Philip Green. He has plundered BHS

and he was not successful. We do love a villain. Before it was the

bankers, Fred the shred. Does this man deserves to have his knighthood

taken away? It is in the Times today that he is not on the forfeiture

list at the moment which is not necessarily definitive but should he

be stripped? I think it should be irrelevant. Our concern should be

about taking the limelight away from him and putting it on the people

whose futures are uncertain at this time. And making sure that actually

it is not the state that picks up the slack of somebody who has

created a lot of profit and kept it for themselves, but rather that

profit is used to support the people whose futures are not certain. You

have also got to criticise the trustees of the pension fund. They

allowed it to continue. Sir Philip Green approached them saying he

would pay a maximum of 10 million a year into the pension fund, and they

accept that. We will leave it there and we will watch with interest what

happens to Philip Green and Frank Field. That is a saga that rolls on

and on. You have been sending in your texts and tweets on this. A lot

of people saying that the principles can mix but greed is behind a lot of

what businesses do. Harry agrees with Hilary: That is not quite what

Hilary said, but along those lines of developing people and lifestyles.

Helen says: That is all we have. Thank you very

much. That word greed has come up again and again. Just resign

yourself to it. Greed may not be good, but greed is what drives the

economy. Right, and I think there is a strong impulse that drives us to

be able to be successful, and I think there is a difference between

being successful and having that inspiration, and doing it to the

detriment of others. If you come up with a great idea about how to

provide goods and services to millions of people who will buy it

and make you millions of pounds, most often these other spinners that

have come up with a grand idea, they are not sitting at home with a blank

sheet of paper thinking they are greedy and how they can be rich.

They are thinking about products and services that they can provide that

people will choose to buy and they get rid as a consequence. Consumers

today demand ethics. If a company doesn't practice ethical behaviour,

you will find very soon you run out of customers. The business pages

bleed onto the front pages all the time. Talk of austerity and moral

decline as we see in the newspapers today. If this was Dragons' Den and

I was Britain and I said to you, Hilary, look at the stake of me, in

or out? What would the answer be? I am in! Took you long enough! Thank

you very much indeed and thank you for your comments and keep them

coming. An internet troll admitted in court

this week to sending online death threats and anti-Semitic abuse

to Liverpool MP Luciana Berger. Separately, Birmingham MP

Jess Phillips has also been forced to overhaul personal security over

safety fears after receiving Most people would utterly condemn

such abuse but how do you draw the line between such repellent

vitriol and fierce Vicky Balch, who had a leg

amputation after a roller coaster crash at Alton Towers, has been

a victim of online trolling. They keep alt tab part of her leg

amputated after a roller-coaster crash at Alton Towers amusement park

last year. Coming to terms with that at the age of 21 has not been easy.

Having a disability is very new to me. I was very confident beforehand

and I just got on with my life and there was nothing to hold me back or

to stop me so it is very hard to come to terms with it. Somebody

close to Vicky came up with an idea to boost her self-confidence. She

had some glamour shots taken by a photographer. I got the glamour

shots as a present from my best friend Hannah. She decided it would

be a good way to get my confidence back up. When the accident happened

I just lost all my confidence. Seeing myself for the first time at

the viewing, I was in tears, just so surprised and amazed at how good

they looked. I never thought I could look like that again. A national

newspaper heard about the photo shoot and ran a story. It was then

that is patrolling on the internet began. That rolls were saying things

like I was milking the accident and I needed to get over it. What

happened was awful but I needed to get over it because they are sick of

seeing my face. Being trolled is not easy. It is not nice. It is people

you don't know saying horrible and hurtful things to you and about you.

If it was said to the wrong person, it could really do damage. Vicky has

tried to find ways of blocking the abusive messages but without much

success. I've blocked and reported messages

that I've got, but obviously you can't do that to everyone and you

just get more. You can keep doing that and you can keep not listening

to them at I don't think there will ever be a way to stop it. And Vicki

joins us now. is Ella Whelan, the assistant

editor of Spiked magazine. Our final question this week -

how can we tackle trolls? Were you surprised when you got the

amount of trolling that you got? Yes, but I thought I would get some

negative comments. While would you think that? That makes me sad, that

you would have do think that. There's always going to be at least

one person. But we're talking about something very different here when

we talk about trolling, aren't we? Completely. I'm a journalist, public

figure, so I get a lot of abuse and whatever, but also when I first

started in journalism one of my first jobs was moderating online

comments and it is mind-boggling how much vitriol there is out there.

Some of it is attention seeking but a lot of it is opinions that have

always been there about women or homophobic attitudes, but... A lot

of the advice is just get a thicker skin, it's always going to happen. I

think that's good advice. I think the idea that we're awash with

horrible people in the world is not really true. I think Twitter is a

home for the kind of bedroom weirdos who get a kick out of doing such

things. Does Vicky have two gird herself for it, why should she have

do? I think we would all agree it's gross and to know someone who would

write such verbal things is terrible and we can condemn that, but the

response to it should always be... You wouldn't expect someone, it's

not acceptable to stand in a Market Square and yell abuse at someone,

why should it be OK if you got an egg next to you, on Twitter? I think

it is freedom of speech but the other side of it is that if we are

accepting as women that we should be protected from certain types of

comments... It is a coincidence we have an all oestrogen driven panel

on. I read a statistic that almost 50% of the trolls out there are in

fact women. Have you experienced trolling? Yes I have, and quite

recently when I was campaigning for during the Brexit campaign and I was

campaigning for Remain, stronger in, champion of small businesses. I

experienced quite a lot of harassment. Do you take a leaf from

Emma's book, just man up and take it? I took the view that if you put

your head above the parapet, someone is going to take a pot shot at you

so you just accept it and move on. And yet, time after time, we have

heard from women in the public eye who say you know what, I did not

sign up for this. I signed up to be a speaker and a teacher, an

actress... And actress recently from Ghostbusters, I didn't sign up for

this. Completely. I think there's a legit difference between online

criticism, if someone says I don't like your article and here's why...

I welcome that. But what I am against is what happens time and

again when people send rape threats, death threats, it has happened to

me. People post my address online. I think there's a difference between

someone making serious threats on your life and making Syria's

attempts and that by having a sustained kind of messaging and

stalker -ish kind of behaviour which is far different from just the odd

tweet. The thing that really shocked me was Jess Phillips, the MP, who

really loves talking about this kind of thing, I wonder whether she does

work in politics, she's always on Twitter! She got several tweets and

she changed her locks. I think she was advised to change them. Let's be

clear, for those who don't know this story, Jess Phillips, the MP for

Birmingham, got dead bodies, corpses with her face on posted. There's a

difference between saying it's OK, you can condemn it publicly, that we

have to think of the other side, what is the alternative to say that

women should be protected from this kind of stuff? That is saying that

we are more thin-skinned than men. It's not just females though, is it?

Everyone should be protected from that kind of thing. But who does the

protection? Let's just turn to Vicky, who has gone through this.

Did you feel like you needed protecting, that Amonde should have

been the thing out for you? I felt like I needed support more than

anything, but it can get much worse than what I have been through. I

think there should be some sort of legislation there. When does it get

into harassment. You strike me as being a pretty tough cookie, if you

don't mind me saying. But this wouldn't just affect you, your mum,

who I've met, is a fiercely protective woman and it must have

had an effect on her as well. Anyone involved in my life when you read

something like that, even the supporters I've never met and have

had amazing messages from, they get through it. You do have quite a

total media profile. Did it not ever make you think you know what, I'm

done with this, I don't want to have Instagram, snap chat, Twitter, I'm

out of here? For me it didn't because of the amounts of supportive

messages I get and the amount I've inspired, I wouldn't be able to

speak to them and give them advice and help them and that is the only

reason I am on social media. There is this idea that there is a greater

good, these are the ugly sides of something that is democratising,

that allows people to get help from their role models, that you would

lose all of that if you start policing... I think it's on a

spectrum. I think Twitter has been absolutely wonderful, it's helped

lots of people I know get jobs etc. But there is a spectrum and we're

not saying that nobody should be subject to any kind of contact. But

at the end of the spectrum, the threatening hate speech, that needs

to be dealt with. Facebook could deal with it a lot quicker. Asking

an excellent question, who do you want to police it? Who is the

arbiter of what is acceptable and what is not? I think I would like

Twitter and Facebook to be more responsive to harassment, racism,

rape threats and that sort of thing. The number of times me or my friends

have been threatened with rape on Twitter and then told there was

nothing offensive about those messages. We've had lots of messages

saying that trolls will always exist and we can't ignore them, but others

feel there should be tough laws in place to deal with them.

All of our messages have been lovely, trolls do not watch Sunday

Morning Live! I'm not even slightly surprised, it is a troll free zone!

Vicky struck me as a tough cookie, I can say that in buckets for you. Do

those comments even sometimes pierce your armour? Yes. How do you deal

with it? I don't deal with it, that's the thing, I just ignore it.

I treat them with the contempt they deserve. I do agree with a tweed

you've just had in that they are attention seeking and therefore to

respond would be to capitulate to their wishes, really. I did want to

come back to you. If somebody is feeling threatened, should they call

the police or not? It's up to that person whether or not they call the

police but you can make the decision and take a call on that because

there could be cases where it is something serious. Should the police

take action? I reject the idea that the police should be involved in

policing speech. Freedom of speech is a fundamental belief that we

should believe in and protect but the consequence of saying there is

some speed that is acceptable and some speech that isn't, that means

you give an inch and a mile is taken. The grounds for what is

considered offensive on Twitter and Facebook at the moment is swelling.

If you're a political figure and someone who is speaking in the

public realm, anything can be classified as offensive and that's

terrible. Things are... After a terrible tragedy like this, you have

a huge constituency, don't you, because of social media? Yeah,

definitely. Everyone uses it now. It's rare to find someone that

doesn't use it. It's an interesting situation. I wonder whether anything

can be changed. We talk about changing things, but when you've got

such a wild West out there, you can talk about policing it but it may

not be possible. I think it can be changed. I think the culture is

changing. I think more and more people are accepting that the

culture -- that this is wrong. Thank you to my guests and you at home for

your contributions. Naga Munchetty will be back on this chair next

week. But before we leave,

singer Carly Paoli from Nottinghamshire treats us

to a special version of the classic Ave Maria, which has been chosen

as the official song # His word is still as wonderful

# As it was when we were younger # Is nothing sacred any more

# Then what are we fighting for? # Have the dreamers stopped

dreaming? # And then I pray

# Ave Maria # Ave Maria

# And if she's asking for our help # Then how can we turn away?

# We have to pray # Ave Maria