Episode 1 Sunday Morning Live

Welcome to a new series of Sunday Morning Live.

On today's programme: As investigations and recriminations

continue into the London tower block fire,

local resident, singer and broadcaster Cerys Matthews

gives us a personal view of the effect on her community.

We are very close. We can see the tower. It is our neighbour.

Also on the show: In memory of Jo Cox.

This weekend more than 100,000 people

across the UK are joining in the Great Get Together.

Jo's sister Kim tells us what her family are hoping to achieve.

One of the things that drives us all, I think, is what Jo wanted us

to do and try for something positive to come out what happens is right up

there as what she would want. Tim Farron quits because he can't

reconcile his Christian faith We ask can you mix

politics with religion? And let me introduce

you to another new face like me to Sunday Morning Live -

Emma Barnett. Throughout today's programme

we want to hear your views on all of our topics and also how

you are celebrating the Great Get Together

in memory of Jo Cox. You can contact us and share photos

through Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use

the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed

by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your

standard message rate. Email us at

[email protected]. However you choose to get in touch,

please don't forget to include your name so I can get you involved

in our discussions. And we'll have this inspiring story

for you that you may We'll be meeting Ben Carpenter,

a single man who has adopted four children,

all with special needs. People say the children are very

lucky to have you but I don't see it like that. I am very lucky to have

the children. The dreadful fire at Grenfell Tower

has shocked us all. Now the grief of the residents

has turned to anger as they demand answers to how

the disaster happened. Trauma has gripped the area

in West London, while the community has rallied in support

of those affected. We asked one local resident,

singer and broadcaster Cerys Matthews, to give her

impressions of how it's We live in what is known as Notting

Dale, neighbour to the more famous and affluent Notting Hill, and we

live very close. We can see the tower, our neighbour. What I

remember of the night was the helicopter noise was relentless.

There was screaming and banging and the sounds of police shouting. We

realised something really bad was happening. So I rushed to the back

windows, and that is where we saw the most horrific sight. The most

traumatising, desperate site that you can imagine. No one here can

forget that terrible night. I met fellow locals and parents Yasmina

Siadatan you to talk about that and where we go from here. -- Yaz and

Tanya. It is hard because when you start processing it, you know there

are families that have been hit and people that we don't know have lost

everything. There is a feeling of hopelessness. I find it quite hard

to believe that we can be here, in a wonderful city like London, in 2017,

and things have got so bad that the city behind us didn't have adequate

fire regulations in place. When I am hearing how much things have been

mentioned in the past, that angers me, to know that people have been

trying for so long to get their voice heard. We have had the most

beautiful blue skies as a backdrop to something that is horrific.

Anyone who has ever come to my house knows the grand belltower because it

stands in the skyline. -- the Grenfell Tower. I will never be able

to look out of the window in the same way again. I am beginning to

wonder how we are going to move forward from here. It is all in the

papers. In a couple of weeks it will not be such big headlines. We have

got to keep it up there for those victims and for the people that are

homeless. We have got to make sure that we are fighting for them and

that their voices are kept heard, because I don't see it being done by

anyone else. You were recently voted in as a school governor. Do you know

what kind of action the deputy head took for the children? The deputy

head was very proactive and saying that the children were coming to her

and saying that they wanted to do something, anything. So the next day

she said we will have a fundraising event. It is traumatising for

children that young to be able to see something that is so difficult

even for us to comprehend. It was an inferno in front of our eyes. It is

difficult to explain to the children. From the school we have

had a two page leaflet trying to help the parents help the children

understand. You can't sugar-coat it for them when it is on their

doorstep. It is not like something you can see our menus and you can

sleep over it. We walk past it on the way to school every day and they

see the posters. We have seen a bighearted community pulling

together over the last few days. What we need to do as the population

is to make sure that this story stays alive in tribute to those

affected. Make sure the regulations get put into place. An independent

inquiry gets opened. And we cannot allow the system to fail the people

of the UK in this catastrophic way ever, ever again.

Cerys Matthews with her personal report

The Prime Minister has said the initial support on the ground after

the fire was not good enough but has announced a ?5 million emergency

fund. Reverend Michael Long,

the minister in charge one of the many faith communities

in the area which have been handling Cerys touched on it in her piece,

the anger. It must have been a difficult week for you. Have you

sensed the anger because you have been there every day? Yes, the anger

has different dimensions. The anger about how the fire could be allowed

to happen, the anger at response to the tragedy on the ground, and

certainly we have seen that outside the building, people talking about

it. Many of our volunteers have expressed that as well. You talk

about the volunteers. There has been an amazing grassroots movement. Have

you felt overwhelmed? Have people been overwhelmed by the amount of

things that have been given and there is no way to organise it?

Indeed. There are many lessons to be learned. We have been overwhelmed

physically and emotionally. People walking around the area, people are

shattered. They haven't slept, hardly eaten, they are utterly

drained at the moment. I am sure people are talking to you about the

bigger questions and faith. Does it affect your face when you see

something so terrible? It affects me to be part of such a traumatic

community event, even though many others, the emergency services,

other faith communities, have been so involved and more directly

involved in actually supporting victims of this appalling disaster.

In terms of faith, it chokes me. It doesn't mean I lose my faith. -- it

shakes me. We heard a lot about the children in that piece. What can we

do for the healing process the children and adults as a faith

group? I think there will be a role for many years in the local

community. Our children are looking out on a building they have seen and

they have seen scenes that nobody should ever witness. The faith

communities, partly because Degen -- partly the togetherness. What has

been very difficult for me has been walking away from the sight and

hearing the noise and the laughter on Portobello road, but that has got

to continue as well. That is going to be part of it as well. There will

be different ways in which the community needs to draw together and

have in the end not only peace but also joined in the people that they

are. -- but also joy. Thank you. Still to come on Sunday

Morning Live: Parents' legal battle with doctors

over their child's future. This weekend has been

one of celebration and togetherness as thousands of people have gathered

all around the UK to take part It's all in memory of Jo Cox,

the MP murdered a year ago this week The aim is to build on Jo's

view that there's more I've been talking to Jo's

sister Kim Leadbeater, who still has vivid memories

of the day she lost her One year on, if I can ask, when you

think back to that day, what comes to mind? Jo's husband Brendan rang

me and said that Jo has been attacked. Don't panic. You just need

to go to the hospital. I was like, fine. What is really bizarre is that

I knew straightaway that it wasn't good. I don't know if that is the

sister think will stop I don't know. I knew straightaway and we got to

the hospital and we found out my worst fears but my instinctive fears

were correct. The following days are all a blur. I don't have many clear

memories. I think some of that has been a way of coping. Things were

being filed and shut away. I think there is a lot of that that I still

haven't dealt with and I will need to deal with at some point. 48 hours

later you did this speech which I have re-watched and watched and I

cannot imagine how you managed to do that. Your mum and dad were behind

you. I am going to speak formally but I want to start by saying thank

you. This is unbelievable, unbelievable. Do you remember

standing there? Not really. I remember there being lots and lots

of cameras and shaking. Being very nervous. But knowing that I had to

do it, I had to do it for Jo and our family to say thank you. Over the

past 48 hours, people have not been silent. They have been vocal and

passionate and they have spoken from the heart with genuine emotion and

no hidden agendas. Jo would have loved it. Losing Jo was very

personal for us, but losing what Jo stood for resonated with so many

people, locally, nationally, internationally. There are some

things in life you should never have to do. Last night I had to go and

identify my sister's body. One of the things that you said was that

you had to identify her body. Somebody had to do it. Brendan

wasn't here. Nor did I want him to have to do it. But to be honest,

that memory is not a bad memory for me because Jo was beautiful and very

peaceful. I think it must be so much harder for the witnesses who saw the

attack. On the streets. A tiny little village, a lovely market

town. Do you go past there? Yes, I do, and I am determined that I will

do and I will continue to. What was it like growing up together? We had

a great childhood. We did everything together. Brownies. BMX bikes. I

think a lot of Jo's values, the values that I share, come from our

parents. We were not brought up to see race, age, colour, creed,

sexuality, gender. We were just brought up to see people. Where does

that come from? Those are values that people often associate with a

form of face. We did go to church a bit when we were younger but I don't

follow a particular religion. I have faith, but in people, and without

putting a particular name on it. We were brought up to be people

centred. When was the last time you saw her? I saw Jo the week before

she was killed on the Thursday evening and she was campaigning on

the EU referendum, and it was classic Jo. She came to our house

and I lent her some clothes, so that John bottoms and a body, and we

trotted -- some pyjama bottoms and a hoodie. We chatted about a few

things and then I took her home. She said I will give you the hoodie back

and I said no, next time. There never was a next time. I just

remember her snuggling up on my couch with my hoodie on, just being

adorably cute and without the bad bone in her body. That is what makes

it utterly heartbreaking that somebody so good, who would have

done so much more good in the world, could just be taken away.

We are living in, though, very, very strange times, very scary times,

three terrorist attacks within months, when you saw news of those

attacks, it can't have been easy? No. Those families have just been

ripped apart, the victims and their families, their lives will never be

the same again, and we have lived that. It has changed everything for

ever. What would you say to people now, you have got the wristband

which is quoting Jo's maiden speech... As I travel around the

constituency, I realise we are far more united and have far more in

common than that which divides us... Since Jo was murdered, I have been

inundated with support from people with different faiths, different

walks of life, things like, where you are brought up, who you pray to,

those things are incidental. The majority of people care about

others. Is that what you are hoping to achieve this weekend, with

thousands of people getting together, I'm sure you could not

have imagined it would get this big? No, it has been amazing, it has been

Brendan's brainchild to make something out of what happened, we

had no idea it would be embraced as it has been. It is about coming

together for the common good. What do you think Jo would have made of

all of this? She would be laughing her socks off, she would also be

very, very proud, one thing which drives us all I think is, what Jo

would want us to do and trying for something positive to come out of

what has happened, that is what she would want. Kim, thank you so much

for sharing those memories and those thoughts.

Earlier, we heard about a community united in grief and anger after the

tower block fire in London. But let's look at the wider

picture in the UK. After three terrorist attacks

in as many months and immigration a key election issue,

are our communities more Joining the panel now

are Sarfraz Manzoor, Jill Rutter from the think

tank British Future, Neil Wallis, former deputy editor

of the News of the World, and Haras Rafiq, chief executive of the

Quilliam Foundation. Boosting starting with you, Sarfraz,

it has been very eventful year, the elections, Brexit, the tragic

events, are we more united than divided? It depends what we are

talking about exactly in terms of being divided. I think in terms of

religion, faith, ethnicity, there are pockets of the country which

feel like they are separate from the rest of the country, but I don't

think that is necessarily the whole of the picture. I grew up in

lieutenant, and there are parts of that which definitely feel divided.

But when we look at the Grenfell Tower, that is a community which is

divided from the very, very which neighbours only yards away, they are

not divided by ethnicity, they are divided by class. Sometimes we can

overemphasise faith and ethnicity as our dividing things, but often it is

about class as well. Is it just scaremongering? No. I think there is

a truth, I have spent a lot of time travelling around this country,

working and personally lived in many different areas. The truth is, there

is a serious issue in this country of divide between communities that

choose to remain separate. And the vital word in that is choose. And

that is where we need to move, the attitude needs to change within

those communities, to say, we will come out. Until that happens, I'm

afraid we will remain divided. Sarfraz, they choose to remain

divided? Yeah, I grew up in Luton in a really poor part, and I have just

done a big piece for the Sunday Times Magazine, going to old, the

thing is, I don't think anybody chooses to live in a crappy

terrorist street, if they could, they would live in a much nicer

house. So I think this is about economics as well. -- terrorist

street. As soon as some Asians or non-white people go, the white

people hugger off as well. So you can't just make it just about

choice. You can't integrate if people keep moving out as well.

Haras, has multiculturalism failed? I think aspects of it have. I think

there has been an aspect of trying to promote people's differences

rather than actually trying to promote an on the I am, if you like,

one identity. There should be more integration, and I think this is one

aspect. It is not just people choosing, it is able actually

actively telling people, you're different. You mentioned the

terrorist attacks, if you look at the things which are affecting us

right now, we have what I call a triple threat, we have our liberal

secular democracy under threat, we have the far left telling us there

is nothing to see here, we have the far right telling us it is all about

faith, it is all Islam, it is Islamists. As opposed to some people

saying they have divine inspiration from above - and we have seen this

polarisation. So, Jill is it religion, race, or is it the

economic divide? It is a whole lot of things mapped onto each other.

And it is very different in different parts of the country.

There are integration issues in East Anglia, where you've got people from

Eastern Europe concentrated in particular parts of the towns and

cities, often not speaking English. We haven't as yet had an integration

strategy in this country. There has been no such thing at a national

level and then fermented locally. I think we need to think much more

about what central government, city mayors, local government and

communities actually do. I do agree with one thing, I wrote in the piece

that you have to try and have a space between the Tim Howard and

blaming. You can't just lame, it's all about those communities... If

you just say that there are some issues, you can't just keep saying,

we are victims, either. You talked about poor people with a little

backyard and a little terraced house - well, the white people in Halifax,

in Huddersfield, in all of these communities, live in exactly the

same circumstances. The issue surely is that people either want to move

outwards, assimilate into the greater community, or... I heard a

very intelligent commentator talking about... She is a mixed-race lady,

talking about how her mother proudly still does not speak English. That

has to be a disaster. You have been getting in touch at home. Emma, what

have people been saying? If you want to join the conversation, the

hashtag is #bbcsml. This one says, the average person in the UK does

not live in a community. Dreadful events such as we have seen ring out

the best of community life for a few days before returning to apathy.

Doreen says on Facebook after the terrorist tragedy in Manchester and

in London, there was no division. People came together in support.

However, maybe there are powers using this anger and grief for

political gain. This one says, we are going through the toughest time

in terms of security and integration, I think we need to come

out of our comfort zone and reach out to others regardless of what we

voted for and where we came from. Humanity is the biggest religion.

And this one says - the country will only be divided if we let the media

divide us. We all just want to have a useful life. And finally this one

- we live in a country where we care more about the choices other people

make, and not actually our own. We should stand together in hardship

and troubled times and not fight amongst ourselves. We are joined now

by Roxy Legane, who is from Reclaim, an organisation which helps Gallup

bench leadership. I knew you work with working-class youth, do they

think we are a united country at the moment? Yeah, so we work with

working-class young people from across Greater Manchester. And they

feel in their communities that they are living in areas which are very

united, resilient, supportive of each other. They come together as

can his from across different religions, backgrounds, ethnicities.

And as a collective, they feel united and they respect that the

challenges they may face might be different iced on those things but

they unite iced on the fact that they are working-class and they are

facing inequality. What about the wider community, do they feel

divided from them? In terms of the bigger picture, the message which

comes through continuously from our young people is that the people they

feel most divided from our our political leaders. Wasn't it always

that way? Young people have always said, they don't represent me, how

is it different now? I think our young people feel disconnected is

due to their class. They see political leaders who come from

communities that are nothing like there's, and they are speaking and

making decisions for them and for their lives, despite the fact that

they have never had the same experience. They see it time and

time again, and they are not listened to until there is a

political conversation where I may be a leader requires a conversation

for their own benefit. So, people feel very disconnected, but they are

certainly feeling that right now in our current society. But we saw so

many people turning out to vote, young people have now got social

media, you could argue they have never had bigger voices, so what do

you actually want to see change? We also saw the largest number of

people from ethnic minorities and women going into the Houses of

Parliament from the latest election? We work with young people under the

age of 18, so they do not have the choice to be able to go out and vote

in the same way. For them, they want to see political leaders come to

them not just when there is a conversation around the corner, but

consistently, because they value their voices, in changing the

society around them, and that young people below the age of 18

understand what is needed for young people. And that is what they want

to see change. They want to be valued as experts in young people.

Sean, they want their voices heard, we hope they are getting in touch

with us this morning? You were shaking your head through that,

Haras, is it about class and poverty, we talk about places like

Hackney? The class issues have always been here in the UK. A couple

of things I want to pick up on, one reason I was shaking my head was,

we're still living in denial and victim blaming and blaming somebody

else for the problem. It is not the responsibility of our politicians if

in civil society, people are not mixing with each other. As civil

society but we need to take on the challenge if we are actually seeing

somebody as the other, all we are seeing a problem, we need to tackle

it. So who is responsible? I don't I enter the idea of victimhood but

here is the thing, if you are going to a school which is 99% Muslim, how

do you solve that body that has got to be about catchment areas, that

has got to be about faith schools, how do you solve it? Everybody has

responsibility, as an individual, we have responsibility to learn

English, our local authorities have responsibility in terms of catchment

areas, where there is segregation and national government has a

responsibility. We can all do things. Neil? I think that is

entirely our problem. We have very absolute issue here. You talk about

99% ethnicity in a school, that's because those people are

deliberately choosing to live in that area, and not going... You say

you have been there. Well, so have I, I have organised coverage of

these things. Do you want an intelligent discussion or not? Is

that your paper?! This is part of the problem. The point being, what

you have here is, multiculturalism was thought to be a good idea at the

time, and it was a brave idea, it was a warm and cuddly idea, but it

hasn't worked. And we are reaping this now. I take your point, it is

not about Islam, it is about this political ideology, but where do

they come from? They come from very specific rockets of areas. That is

very well-documented. How do you tackle that? It is a good question,

and I know you're chomping at the bit, but time is against us, I'm

afraid. Let's find out what has been going

on with The Great Get Together. People have been joining them all

over the place. The Archbishop of your summer John Sentamu, got

involved at his local event. Andy Thorn French tweeted this picture of

herself ready for The Great Get Together.

Now a chance to meet a man who has a remarkable story to tell.

He's shown drive and determination to achieve a lifetime ambition

to take on a task that would daunt many people.

Then Carpenter is a man fulfilling a dream. He lives amongst the

beautiful countryside of Yorkshire. Hello. What a fantastic spot you

have got. He is lucky enough to work from home. He has a whole menagerie

of animals in his garden. But what has really made his dream come true

is his family. Jack, aged nine. Ruby, six. Lilley, five. Joseph, 22

months. He has adopted all four children, quite a family when you

consider he is only 33 years old and single. Four children would be a

handful for any parent but it is even more challenging for Ben

because the children he chose to adopt have special needs. Jack is

autistic with OCD. Ruby is visually and hearing impaired. Lily is

profoundly deaf and visually impaired. Joseph has Downs syndrome.

People say the children are very lucky to have you but I don't see

that. I say I am very lucky to have the children. There are amount of

get up and go is just marvellous to see. What kind of family did you

grow up in? I grew up in a very religious family. My dad being a

vicar. It was a very loving family. Always involved in the church and

giving back to people. You started out as a carer in your life. Why

wasn't that enough? Why did you need to adopt? It was just a piece of the

jigsaw missing. I knew there was something else that I needed to

fulfil that need, that urging me to become a father. What made you adopt

children with disabilities? Children with additional needs are always

overlooked within the care system. And I knew that. I knew it was what

I wanted to do and the avenue I wanted to choose. When Ben first

contacted his local council about adoption, he didn't exactly fit the

average profile. Going back ten years ago, a young 21-year-old

single gay male was unheard of, if you like. I thought it was not going

to happen. To be told you have got unanimous decision and

congratulations, you are going to be a father, for me it was almost that

experience of giving birth. I didn't know who my child was going to be. I

just knew that my child was out there. And along came Jack, bringing

Ben face to face with the everyday reality of fatherhood. Can I see

your tooth? Did it really come out? Let me look. Look at this tooth.

Where do we need to put that tonight? Under my pillow! What was

it like when you were finally accepted and finally allowed to

become a father? It is a very funny feeling and something I hear a lot

from adopters. There is not an instant love there. It was only

three weeks later that Jack fell over and he really hurt his leg. You

can remember that feeling that my child had heard himself. And this

instant gush of love just came from nowhere. From then on it has grown

and grown and his love has grown with mine. Our love has grown as a

family. Daddy is the best daddy in the world. He really likes me. I

don't like you. I love you! Despite the complex needs of the children,

they are all thriving. Lily's disabilities are quite complex. She

is missing the radius bone in her arms. She was a sorry little girl in

many ways, in a wheelchair, constantly hooked up to a feeding

machine, 24/7. Now she is a fun, outgoing child with a real zest for

life. Lily is visually impaired. She is hearing-impaired. She is a very I

can do character and she is a fighter, she really is. You want

some help? OK. All right, darling. We can all have a go. What is this?

Danger! What is it? Dangerous. You sign to her if you want to talk to

her. Can you teach me? How do you say hello? Hello. And that is

goodbye. You are very patient, aren't you? If the children ask you

why haven't we got a family with a mum and dad like our other friends,

what do you say? I don't think there is such thing as a stereotypical

family any more. I know children with two mothers, two fathers, and

yes, you will get people who believe children should be brought up with a

mum and dad but my answer to that is if the lovers there and the

stability is there, that is what the child once and is how a child will

flourish. -- if the love is there, that is what the child wants. Ben

has won a champion of the year award. But he has no intention of

taking it easy. I will continue and probably adopt more children. Ben

Carpenter. For Father's Day. Well, if you spoke to Tim Farron,

the answer would appear to be no. He resigned from his job

as leader of the Liberal Democrat party this week and this

is what he had to say. To live as a committed Christian and

live faithfully by the Bible's cheating has felt impossible for me.

-- the Bible's teaching. Although Mr Farron said

that he supported equal marriage and gay rights,

he faced criticism during the election campaign

for avoiding questions Joining us now from our

studio in Exeter is Ann Widdecombe, former

Conservative government minister who converted from C of E

to Catholicism whilst And with me in the

studio is Evan Harris a former MP who was president

of the Liberal Democrats' Good morning to you both. Tim Farron

decided he could not continue to live as a Christian and a political

leader. Is it time to accept there is no place for religion in public

life? I wouldn't say that and I certainly wouldn't accept that. Tim

Farron did have particular difficulties because of the party

that he was leading. But what really worries me about this controversy is

that he voted for gay marriage, he didn't want to deny anybody else

their rights, but he was denied his right to think and hold the view is

that he had, to the extent that he couldn't really even feel confident

in expressing them. In a truly free society, we should be able to be

free to think as we will, and once you start trying to control thought,

and I say again that Tim Farron voted one way but he may have

thought another, when you try and control thought, that is not a free

society and not a free party. As it become hard over the years to

express your religious views because of the opposition to expressing

religious views in the political sphere? I think undeniably it has

become harder. When I first entered Parliament in 1987, it was perfectly

normal to state your face and say why you are doing something. You

didn't have to deny it at all. Then it was regarded as rather

embarrassing to be a serious Christian. And now people regard it

as somewhat odd. That was why Tim Farron was put in a very difficult

position when he was asked if something was a sin. The population

are so theologically illiterate that most people don't understand what is

meant by sin and they would have thought it was unique condemnation

or beginning the descent into hell or something. Tim was very careful

about that but it is the sort of problem that Christians face. But of

course you can still be a Christian and a politician but you have got to

be brave and you have got to say what you think. I think if Tim had

been a bit braver and had prevaricated a bit less, the problem

might have been resolved at an earlier stage. She says it is

becoming embarrassing. Is tolerance suffering in the name of equality

and gay rights? I agree with her that it is very important that

people have freedom of religious thought and freedom to express those

religious thoughts, within the very broad limits of ensuring they are

not inciting hatred with threatening language. I think there has been a

swing towards society, not the law, condemning people even when they are

not breaking the law for expressing their views. I would but rather have

politicians expressing their views sincerely than behind the scenes,

having dealings with religious leaders and putting things into law

without being transparent. Letters be clear about Tim Farron. It seems

to me as a party activist that the problem he had was not with me and

people like me who are not religious and secular, and whether things are

sinful, because that doesn't matter. I don't believe in heaven or hell.

He is a political leader. How can it not matter? It did matter to other

Christians who are liberal. The people who have criticised him

publicly that I have seen our liberal Christians, gay Christians,

and it matters to them that their comrade and leader thinks that they

are in some way sinful. There is a battle and it is a big battle within

the church now. I have got to say that in 1987 when Ann came into

Parliament, you could be sent to prison for having consensual adult

gay sex. Section 28, which Ann kept voting to keep meant that children

in school were told that homosexuality was wrong. I think

that if we are worried about the minority suffering, there is still a

problem for gay rights greater than the problem there is for Christians

feeling suppressed. Things have got better in his eyes. You have never

hidden from expressing your religious views, have you? I

certainly haven't. I would take issue over one thing. He said the

pressure is coming from society rather than law. The bakers wouldn't

think that. That case encapsulates what has gone wrong. I can't imagine

anybody would ever agree that you would say to a homosexual I am not

going to give you a cake, sell you a cake, because you are homosexual.

But now things have got to such a slave each -- have got to such a

stage that if there is a slogan on the cake which you disagree to, then

in law you cannot produce that. We don't want to get into the case of

the bakers. It happened in Northern Ireland. The key distinction is

discrimination. We are not going to get into individual cases. That was

in Northern Ireland, company Padua broken the law when they fail to

decorate a case with a pro-gay marriage. Top people are getting in

touch. Rich says modern society in the UK is a vast mixture of all

faiths and politics should be faith free.

Tim Farron did not say that he would change the law in any way. That is a

lame's view on religion and politics. -- Elaine's view. And you

can get in touch. Tomorrow judges at the European

Court of Human Rights will meet to decide the future of a ten month

old baby on a life support machine at London's Great

Ormond Street Hospital. The child, Charlie Gard,

has been in intensive care since October last year and has been

at the centre of a legal battle Charlie Gard was born on the 4th of

August, 2016, with a rare inherited disease that causes severe brain

damage. Charlie is deaf and cannot breathe or eat unaided. Charlie's

parents have been in a legal battle with doctors overextending Charlie's

life and taking him to America to receive experimental nucleoside

treatment. On the 8th of June this year they found out that the Supreme

Court had rejected their appeal. The judge concluded that the prospect of

the nucleoside treatment having any benefit is close to zero. We have

had to stomach the fact that they don't want to do the treatment here.

OK, we don't agree with that but we have to accept that. The fact that

they are blocking us from taking him to another hospital in the world

with one of the leading experts in this area, I can't to this day get

my head round that. The parents have now taken Charlie's case to the

European Court of Human Rights and have raised over ?1.3 million to pay

for his care in the United States. Great Ormond Street, who have been

looking after Charlie, has said their first responsibility is to put

the interests of the child first and foremost. And that it is in

Charlie's best interests to die with dignity. Connie Yates posted this

photo of Charlie with his eyes open on her Facebook page saying the

picture speaks a thousand words. This is deeply personal for his

parents, but it raises wider issues. Should we leave it in the hands of

medical experts, or should the law have the final say average I'm

joined now by Dr Ravi Jayaram, a medical doctor and TV presenter.

Author and broadcaster Rosie Millard. And Charles Foster, a

medical law barrister. Good morning to you all. There has been a massive

interest in this case, but should the parents have the final say? I

think nothing is black and white. In reality, these decisions are working

in shades of grey and managing uncertainty. Charlie is a little boy

with a genetic condition which means his body can't use lies energy

properly and his organs don't work. The long-term outlook is not good,

he's being kept alive by technology, so he has machines breathing for him

and doing his feeding for him. The feeling from the doctors at Great

Ormond Street, who are not falls, is that the chance of recovery is

virtually nil. There is a potential treatment which is parents have

identified which might at best stop the progression of the disease for a

short period of time. And the question here is, is that in the

best interests of Charlie in the long run? Who should make the

decision? Ideally there should be a collaborative decision between the

health care professionals and the parents. In my own experience, this

can take time. It appears that the relationship has broken down to such

an extent between the health care professionals and the parents that

common ground can't be found, and in that situation, there really is no

other way other than following the legal route. What makes judges

qualified to make this decision? They're human beings with families,

with feelings, they also know what previous judges have said about what

is the interest means, but also, they've got the time to sit and

listen to lots of expert opinion, they've got time to listen to the

parents. They can approach these enormously emotionally charged

decisions with a degree of leisure which often isn't present in the

clinical coalface, where these decisions are often made. Rosie

Millard, should it be how she is, should it be lawyers? This is a

horrendous thing and my heart goes out to Charlie's parents and the

doctors looking after him, and to Charlie. There is no winner in this

situation. By the time it gets up to the human quarter rights, that is an

enormous thing. I think the trouble is, I grew up in a medical family,

all my siblings, my parents are doctors. I can remember a time when

doctors were like God, they decided, they have the knowledge, they had

the mystery, as it were and they made the decision, again, with the

best motives. They weren't malign about it. But now, we have the

internet, we have social media, we have an enormous amount of

information out there, which parents can access, and Charlie's parents

have accessed and found that there is a therapy in America, and they

have raised ?1.5 million, they have got a huge campaign online. So that

makes the whole thing very, very difficult, because it has become a

massive campaign, with newspapers and programmes like this discussing

it. Shouldn't we just trust the doctors, they know what they're

talking about, don't they, Neil? Very often, yes. Very often they do

the right thing. Sometimes they don't. Rosie was completely right,

everybody loses in this situation. The problem is, you tend to lose

sight of the centre of this story, which is this little baby. I'm

afraid on this occasion, I certainly don't believe doctors are gods, I

don't think they come actors that. They've been very helpful to me in

my life, but I think it had to be taken outside the emotional cauldron

that this has become, with entrenched parties. And I do believe

that the answer was to take it to the neutral, thoughtful people who

are going to make the best judgment for Charlie. We have to think also

about, what is it going to do to this poor baby, to take him to

America? Precisely. We do not know what he is suffering. What have you

got for us, Emma? Well, we have got some responses coming in. If you

want to get in touch, you can do so via #bbcsml. I'm also going to speak

to a journalist, Charmian Evans, who lost her child at five years old and

faced an agonising decision. Good morning. Can you tell us what

happened to you and your family? Well, my son was born perfectly

normal, and then when he was about four and a half months old, he

stopped breathing, he was a near miss cot death and he became

massively brain-damaged, was to fate, he was fitting regularly, I

used to have to manually evacuate his bowels, he couldn't move, he

couldn't talk, he could see and he could hear, we think. But beyond

that, he really had a very poor quality-of-life. We made it as best

we could for the short time that we had him. He died when he was five

and a half, and at the end of his life, actually, we did decide that

we didn't want any medical intervention, should he get any

chest infections, which he did, that's what he died of in the end.

And I feel really with the Gard family, and Mitre ten Cup really

goes out to them, I feel very much with the Gards that we've got a

similar situation in that I think that when my son was about eight

months old, about the same age as little Charlie now, I really didn't

feel that I wanted to take on board what they were trying to tell me

about his condition. Because I think that I was almost cherry-pick in the

information, because I felt that he was going to buck the system. And I

can see that's where the parents are now. But, you know, the difference

is that as time went on, we realised that there was going to be no hope

for Guy, he was never going to grow old, he was never going to have any

dignity as an adult. I do worry a lot for the Gards that they're

following this case in America, rightly so, every family fights for

their children, it is what makes you a good parent, but what I would like

to say is that if this little boy does go over to American, and he

does have this sort of treatment, there's such a very, very he's

chance that it might help him. The boy in America is having 12

treatments day, and that is untenable, to think of that giving

any quality of life to a child with kidney problems, heart problems, who

is fitting. And what happens if this little boy is made slightly better,

just enough to...? Wouldn't you take that chance, I know you have been in

this situation, but people will be saying, wouldn't you do anything you

could to try and save your child's life doubly well, yes, of course I

did when my son was taken into intensive care, when he was four and

a half months old. Because we did not know what the prognosis would

be. But there are so many things wrong with little Charlie, he's

always going to be brain-damaged, he has got kidney problems, he's got

heart problems, he's fitting regularly. He is a living death,

he's not having any quality-of-life, and he never will have

quality-of-life. As I say, if this mitochondrial treatment that has

been trying on mice with some success and is being try down

several people in the United States, and none of these people are as bad

as Charlie, if this does have some quality in improving his life, what

is this little boy going to do? Is he suddenly going to start feeling

more pain, is he going to start feeling aware of the bleakness of

his life? I'm really sorry to have to say this, but I just worry that,

who is this little boy being kept alive for? What is the point of it

all in the end? Thank you very much for sharing that with us. Emma, such

a difficult story, let's talk to Dr Ravi - have you ever come to a

situation where you disagree with parents? I have been lucky enough,

when it has got to discussing end of life care, when eventually, we have

come to a collaborative agreement of what we feel is the way forward. I

am not saying the right way or the wrong way, because you never know. I

think it is important to realise that this is a difficult decision

all-round. I think with Charlie, the important thing is, what are you

trying to achieve? This is an experiment will treatment which at

best may well on his life. It will not improve his quality-of-life. The

doctors at Great Ormond Street feel that from the point of view of how

his brain and body functions, things aren't going to improve. He's stuck

on the end of the -- a ventilator, with machines keeping him alive. I

can understand why the parents would want to do everything to keep their

child alive. But from Charlie's point of view, what are we trying to

achieve? It might make it worse. It might, but there's also risks in

transporting a child across to America. The other thing which I

think is important here, it is being portrayed in the media as the poor

parents versus the medical establishment, who are heartless,

but actually these decisions are difficult for everybody involved.

Briefly, what lessons can be learned from this? These cases are

enormously difficult, enormously heart-rending but they are holistic

determinations. The clinicians will be the experts on prognosis.

Everybody's voice will have to be listened to. Almost all of these

decisions, thank Widnes, I made outside of a court room by the kind

of consensus which it is usually possible to sort it out with.

Occasionally, unfortunately, it does have to come to court. And it is

usually a terrible job, in cutting through this. They hate doing it,

these tiny number of cases are the ones they do not like, but thank

goodness they're there to do it. Thank you very much indeed, all of

you. That's nearly all

from us for this week. Many thanks to all our guests

and for your contributions too. Emma will be continuing

the conversation online. I'll be on Facebook live

talking to Dr Ravi Jayaram about the Charlie Gard case

and putting your questions to him. You can contact us

@bbcsundaymorninglive We'll leave you with singers

from Kensington Temple, a church near the devastated

Glenfell Tower in London. They're here to pay tribute to those

who died and remember those who are injured

and those who grieve. # When I am down and my soul, so

weary # When troubles come

# # Until you come and sit awhile with

me # You raise me up

# I am strong when I am on your shoulders

# You raise me up

# You raise me up to more than I # You raise me up,

# You raise me up to walk on stormy seas

# I am strong when I am on your shoulders

# You raise me up to more than I can be

# I am strong when I am on your shoulders