Browse content similar to Episode 2. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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On today's programme: In the aftermath of a van driving | :00:08. | :00:17. | |
into Muslims leaving prayers, we ask how can we prevent a rise | :00:18. | :00:19. | |
Also on the programme: Doctors are debating whether the abortion laws | :00:20. | :00:32. | |
are out of date. Should the time limit be extended? | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
And should we invest in the space race to Mars to help save the earth? | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
And Emma Barnett is here as usual to sample your views. | :00:40. | :00:41. | |
We want you to get in touch with your views on our | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter. | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
Don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml. | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
Or text SML followed by your message to 60011. | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
Texts are charged at your standard message rate. | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
Email us at [email protected]. | :00:58. | :00:58. | |
However you choose to get in touch, please don't forget to include your | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
name so I can get you involved in our heated discussions. | :01:04. | :01:05. | |
My horse, my horse! My kingdom for a horse! | :01:06. | :01:16. | |
Later I meet Mat Fraser, said to be the first | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
Pretty much everything I do I tend to be the first disabled person to | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
do that thing! It is part of the course for my career. | :01:28. | :01:37. | |
This week began with a group of Muslim worshippers leaving | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
prayers for Ramadan and walking straight into a nightmare. | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
One man died and several people were injured after a van ploughed | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
into them outside a mosque in Finsbury Park. | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
Darren Osborne has been charged with terrorism-related murder | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
and attempted murder following the incident. | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
We can't discuss this case in detail because of | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
But after the news about Finsbury Park broke, | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
both extremist Muslims and the far right took to the internet to use it | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
So our first discussion today is how do we stop the rise in hate | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
Joining me here in the studio are Professor Ben Carrington, | :02:14. | :02:23. | |
a sociologist specialising in race, gender and culture, | :02:24. | :02:24. | |
Ruth Dudley-Edwards a journalist and broadcaster, Shaista Aziz | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
Tom Slater is the Deputy Editor of Spiked Online. | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
We have had a string of incidents in the last few months. What kind of | :02:32. | :02:45. | |
atmosphere has that created? Fragile atmosphere where people are | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
frightened and scared and understandably so. It is important | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
how we discuss these issues. There are some narratives that we need to | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
unpack. One is the notion that far right extremism is a new phenomenon | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
that has suddenly emerged in the past weeks or months which is simply | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
not the case. We are not too far away from Soho, the so-called mail | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
bomber, where David Copeland went out and killed three people and | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
injured scores more. He targeted certain areas, the gay area of Soho, | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
bricklaying and Brixton. And Anders Breivik killed dozens of people in | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
Norway. Extremism is not new. Many people deny the existence of | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
Islamophobia. How do we address the context if we deny the framework? On | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
that first point, how did the media report those cases of far right | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
extremism in your opinion? You tend to find in these moments that they | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
are isolated as a lone wolf. Mental health issues are immediately put on | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
the agenda and they don't get to stand in for all white people, as we | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
do with Islamic inspired terrorism. Are you blaming the media? The media | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
has been appalling in these issues. You are a journalist. It is you, | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
your colleagues and your peers. It is your fault. Fortunately I am not | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
a newspaper editor so I don't take the rap for any of it. Would you | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
blame the media? I always blame the media actually for concurring in | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
covering up discussion. I think that has been one of the big problems we | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
have had for the last couple of decades. We have not been honest in | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
conversation. Every time there is an exhibition of Islamic extremism and | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
Islamism, and it has nothing to do with Islam, which politicians say, | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
which is rubbish, because we have got to talk about the truth. We | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
should be emphasising what a terrific country this is and how | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
extraordinarily tolerant it is. I was looking at research on European | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
countries and their attitudes to Muslims and the UK was the least | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
negative of the ten countries I looked at. There were negative | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
responses in Hungary of something like 70% and down to 27% in the UK. | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
It is a great tradition of tolerance and we should applaud it. That is a | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
positive picture. The media, are they reporting terrorism and far | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
right extremism, which many people say is terrorism, fairly? The first | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
thing to point out is context. When some terrorism is described as a | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
lone wolf or crazed individual or whatever, however it is couched, the | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
is missing. The context is that there has been a fivefold increase | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
in reported hate crime in the City of London. Sadiq Khan has said that | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
terrorism is terrorism and he is absolutely right. Posed Manchester | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
there has been a 500% increase in hate crime. We need to make sure | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
that when we are putting on these issues, the context is there. There | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
is a mounting catalogue of reported hate crime taking place in this | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
country. Is that because of the way it is reported? The media is a big | :05:51. | :06:00. | |
term to use that we have got to break that down. There is a lot of | :06:01. | :06:02. | |
inflammatory coverage. A lot of information that is being spun in | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
that way which is definitely feeding into misinformation. Is the | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
inflammatory coverage that some people say is flaring up terrorism | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
and reaction, is that to blame? I don't think so. There is a | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
tremendous double standard in place as Ruth has gestured to. Whenever | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
there is an Islamist attack, people are quick to say, and rightly, that | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
you shouldn't extrapolate to the religion itself. We need to talk | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
about these things carefully and I agree with that. But as soon as | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
there is something that appears to be a far right extremist attack, you | :06:32. | :06:42. | |
don't just hear discussion about extremist publications, you may | :06:43. | :06:44. | |
discussion about the Daily Mail, The Sun, cartoons in broadsheet | :06:45. | :06:46. | |
newspapers showing the van used in this attack with the Daily Mail and | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
The Sun plastered on this. The far right threat is being defined down | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
in many respects and what it expresses is a contempt for white | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
working-class people, who are seen as a pogrom in waiting. We just need | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
one Katie Hopkins column to hop into. That is deeply disturbing. | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
Your response, Ben? I agree that the term the media is just too broad. It | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
is ludicrous to pretend that the Daily Mail and The Sun are defenders | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
of the white working class. Nobody has done more to denigrate them than | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
those publications. It is a slippage between the right and the far right. | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
I don't think there is a far right extremist. If you look at their | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
views, they would say Islam doesn't belong in Europe, and they don't | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
like multiculturalism, issues which are an issue in The Sun and Spiked. | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
Those are blurred. The gap between Spike magazine and many other | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
publications is slipping to the far right? That is ludicrous because we | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
are progressive humanist magazine and we are not right wing hate | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
peddlers by any stretch of imagination. We don't have a | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
particularly pronounced problem with far right extremism in this country | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
so that when people talk that the threat of it they have got to define | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
everything down. Over the past week you heard people like Douglas | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
Murray, someone I disagree with on many counts, but being referred to | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
in the same dress as Andrew Chowdhury. Douglas Murray has not | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
been for expressing support for terrorist groups. This slippage | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
demonstrates something we can take some heart from, which is the story | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
of far right extremism in this country over the past 30 or 40 | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
years, which is one of terminal decline. That is not true. It is | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
true. If you go from the 1970s, national front, the BNP, any end we | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
have very sad protest groups like the endless defence league, who | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
yesterday could barely get 50 people out. So what about the hate crimes? | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
Far right extremists are using the internet in the same way as Islamist | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
extremists. They are gathering online, they are connecting with | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
other groups in Europe. It is not true to say that the threat is going | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
down. It is actually going up. If you look at what the security | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
minister said in relation to the attack in Finsbury Park, he said the | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
government is aware of far right groups operating. We cannot deny | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
that this is happening and we cannot say it is going down because it is | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
not. Divided opinion here. What have you got for us? | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of TellMAMA, an organisation | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
Good morning. Have you got evidence that hate crimes have gone up? We | :09:20. | :09:28. | |
have got evidence that there are large spikes and peaks when there | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
are major national and international incidents. The baseline is certainly | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
rising but there are very large peaks and troughs. They are | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
predominately after major Islamist terrorist attacks. So the numbers | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
are up. Where are they up to at the moment and who perpetrate these | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
crimes against Muslims? We have got to make it clear distinction between | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
hate crimes and hate incidents. People can report in because they | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
are targeted because of a characteristic of theirs. Most of | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
them are opportunistic. People see somebody visibly from the Muslim | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
community and they say something. The vast majority of these incidents | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
would be general abuse and thankfully the number of results is | :10:11. | :10:19. | |
small. We see these large numbers of incidents straight after national | :10:20. | :10:21. | |
incidents like terror attacks in our country. Are they up at the moment? | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
They are up at the moment. After Manchester, they were very high and | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
we reported over 530% increase seven days before versus seven days after. | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
After London Bridge again they went up. What we didn't see after the | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
Westminster terrorist attack was any form of Spike and we are looking | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
into that. That is quite unique. Something didn't happen around hate | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
crime after Westminster. What other long-term effects of Islamophobic | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
attacks on the Muslim community in Britain? The long-term impact is it | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
sense of fear, where Muslim women, in particularly visibly Muslim | :11:00. | :11:08. | |
women, they are not going out after dark, they are taking off their | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
headscarves. It is the impact. It is wide at the moment. We have got to | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
put that in perspective. Hate crime when it takes place is general abuse | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
and we have got to put that sense of fear in perspective. Let me also say | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
that there is a general sense where communities start to distrust | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
themselves if these hate crimes happen time after time after major | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
Islamist attacks. That sense of distrust also impact on communities | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
and how they perceive each other. That is very interesting. Thank you. | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
A sense of fear and distrust. How much a social media to blame for | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
that? I think that is one of the interesting things that has been | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
pointed out in relation to this. When hate crimes and hate incidents | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
are reported, I think it is misleading. People assume there has | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
been a 500 fold rise in physical attacks and often what it comes down | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
to is verbal abuse and abuse on social media. All of which is | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
horrendous and should be condemned in the strongest terms, but my | :12:07. | :12:17. | |
concern is that in this discussion it is conflated with violent attacks | :12:18. | :12:19. | |
or nobody takes the effort to differentiate out those parts. If we | :12:20. | :12:21. | |
are talking about people feeling anxious, if you constantly talk up | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
the threat of violence is a phobia and extremism, that will do far more | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
damage to communities and their sense of cohesion than dealing with | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
them properly and talking about them on their sense of scale. It is | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
reckless to talk up the threat as much as people do. There are Muslims | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
who do not feel safe in this country which is not good, whether it is on | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
social media or actual attacks. Part of the reason is what they are being | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
fed by their own communities. It crime as opposed to hate incidents. | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
Somebody shouting abuse is nasty, very bad manners. So is an abusive | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
tweet. Absolutely but it is all over the internet. But if it is targeted | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
at Muslims, it is bad, isn't it? If it is targeted at anybody, it is | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
bad, of course it is. There are lots of very sad people on the internet | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
but we have got to get it in context. I speak as an Irish | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
immigrant and I lived here through all the bombing in the 70s and 80s | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
and I was astounded by the intolerance of the English. If | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
occasionally somebody said something slightly rude about by accent, I | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
didn't report it as a hate crime. We have got to get a sense of | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
perspective. Telling Muslims how welcome they are in this country and | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
telling Muslim is what a tolerant country it is and that they should | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
be proud of it would be a start. You have spent a lot of time in America. | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
Similar tensions there. Can we learn anything from them and what is it | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
like in American society at the moment? We have similar | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
conversations in the USA right now. We have the same patronising | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
discourse towards Muslims, telling them that Islamophobic threats, kids | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
being terrorised at school, being victimised, is just a form of bad | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
manners and Islamophobia doesn't exist. You will find some similar | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
parallels to what is happening in the UK right now. I agree it is | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
important to distinguish between not conflating Islamophobia and the | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
context to broadly, but sometimes the opposite takes place from the | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
right. They define it so narrowly, that only seven explicitly claiming | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
to be attacking someone because they are Muslim and inflicting bodily | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
damage or even death gets to count and everything else just doesn't | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
count, which is a ridiculous standard. Most things that we call | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
forms of persecution and hate just would not qualify. I will come to | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
you in a moment on that but what are people saying at home? People are | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
getting in touch with what we like, solutions. Sarah says: If we want to | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
change division... This is not a very lovely to end on | :14:45. | :15:16. | |
but we do like your comments so keep them coming in. | :15:17. | :15:24. | |
Emma, that will spark a debate. Not all cultures are compatible. The | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
thing is, we cannot dismiss what British people in this country are | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
going through. I spend a lot of time talking to people as a journalist, | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
and I've had lots of women contact me to tell me that they are nervous | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
and scared of going out because they visibly look like Muslims. That's a | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
disgrace. If anyone is suggesting that's not happening, or not | :15:52. | :15:53. | |
happening in the way the police figures show, that's not true. So | :15:54. | :16:00. | |
what is sparking the fear? Lived experiences. I was subjected to a | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
hate crime last week. The police are investigating. I urge anyone who is | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
facing physical or verbal abuse on the streets, racial abuse, to tell | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
the police. I have been to the police twice in the last couple of | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
years. This is not a figment of my imagination. I had someone tried to | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
punch me in my face and verbally abused me in my own home city. This | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
didn't happen before. Something is going on here. We shouldn't talk | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
things up to make people anxious and nervous, but we shouldn't pretend | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
it's not happening either. There is context behind everything. How can | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
we heal the divide in society, Tom? We need to stop treating the public | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
like idiots. That is the thing that is the most striking. In the past | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
two years, 36 people have been killed in terror attacks, one of | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
those by a far right extremists. I think people are still bemused that | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
we are having this discussion about far right extremism in the context | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
we are having. Muslim communities are unable to talk about this, | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
despite the fact we know this is a small problem in that community. The | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
second thing that drives it is that the white working class, the belief | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
that the white working class are some kind of pogrom. It's diverted | :17:26. | :17:33. | |
attention. We could continue this debate for a long time, but we are | :17:34. | :17:35. | |
out of time. We've been exploring how to tackle | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
some of the divisions And one way of doing that is to find | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
out more about each other's customs. Today is the Muslim festival of Ede, | :17:42. | :17:53. | |
which marks the end of Ramadan. And Wendy Robbins went along to a tasty | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
event. Chef Brother Sullivan is cooking today for hundreds of | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
people, but they will not get to eat his curry until later tonight. He | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
will not get to sample it, because it is the holy month of Ramadan, | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
where Muslims do not get to eat between sunrise and sunset. I am | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
fasting as well, and I cannot wait until tonight's iftar. I am so | :18:20. | :18:29. | |
hungry. How can you do this to me! I am with Brother Sullivan. He must be | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
one of the most disciplined men in the UK today. You have been fasting | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
for 12 hours? Seven and a half hours to go. Isn't it difficult to cook | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
this delicious food while you are fasting? I do feel hungry. I am | :18:45. | :18:52. | |
starving. How am I going to manage? Just be patient. I'm not the only | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
one for whom this is a new experience. You are not Muslim. Why | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
are you fasting? I am doing it mainly out of solidarity to my | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
Muslim colleagues. We can try to understand how people feel, but | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
until you experience it, you don't know how hard it can be with not | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
having any fluids or food. It's really hard. Brother Sullivan helps | :19:17. | :19:27. | |
supply the open iftar in Central London, where Muslims and | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
non-Muslims get together to break the fast. What it means to me is | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
family, community and solidarity. During the month of fasting, I get | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
to appreciate it, to know what it means to feel first or hunger. How | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
many people are you getting on a nightly basis now? Around 300 or 350 | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
people. That's a lot of people. How'd you describe the mix of | :19:59. | :20:06. | |
people? 60 or 70% are of the Islamic faith, and the rest are not of the | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
Islamic faith or are no faith. What does it mean to you to see people | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
like this? We live in the same community but often we do not engage | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
with each other. It is a good opportunity to engage with others | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
and have a meal with them in the heart of London. The fast is broken | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
by eating the traditional dried dates. Now it is time for the main | :20:29. | :20:38. | |
course, the famous chicken curry. Right, I'm going to try your food. | :20:39. | :20:46. | |
Delicious! I could eat three of these. Have you got any more? Yes, I | :20:47. | :20:55. | |
have! I've felt really welcome, and it's been a really enjoyable | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
evening. Just from talking to people and understanding why anyone has | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
different beliefs from you, understanding that and getting to | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
know that is really important. Like you said, it is peculiar to spirit. | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
You wake up and you enjoy it, and you just enjoy being with people. | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
What were your thoughts after the events of Monday night? Yesterday I | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
had my flatmates, and they were like, we really want to come. I | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
said, I didn't invite you last week. They said, after what happened at | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
Finsbury, we need to start together, and we need to show that we are with | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
you. To see non-Muslim people, it's wonderful, you know? It's not just | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
about Muslims. It's about something peaceful that we are doing together. | :21:47. | :21:54. | |
Some are blaming their Muslim counterparts, and we know it's not | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
everybody. But we are singing from the same hymn sheet. It has been a | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
very long day. How have you found your vast? It was much harder than I | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
thought it would be. I was starving for most of the day and I really | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
wanted water, but I'm actually really glad I'd did it. That first | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
taste of food tonight made it worthwhile! | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
Still to come on Sunday Morning Live: What is the Church of England | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
And we greet the sun on the summer solstice at the rave where drink | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
The government said in the speech this week that it is committed to | :22:29. | :22:44. | |
growing the space industry and build a spaceport. Cosmologist Professor | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
Stephen Hawking has added his voice as well, saying we need to be much | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
more ambitious and set our sights on Mars. Professor Tim Peake's exploits | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
last year reignited interest in all things space. This is the view of | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
planet Earth. But Stephen Hawking said in a speech this week that we | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
should look beyond the space station, and sent a mission to the | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
moon by 2020, with a view to setting up a lunar base, which could take 30 | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
years to build. He also says we should send people to Mars by 2025. | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
He acknowledges that there are problems on earth to address, with | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
global warming and climate change, but space travel is essential | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
precisely because our planet is under threat, and he predicted no | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
long-term future for humans on Earth. | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
So is Stephen Hawking right or is space exploration just | :23:46. | :23:47. | |
a vanity project and we'd be better off spending the money for the good | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
Joining us now are Sarah Cruddas, a space journalist, and | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
Andrew Simms, an author and campaigner. | :23:55. | :23:55. | |
Sarah, there are serious misgivings about the amount spent on space | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
science. In times of austerity, is it worthwhile? It is generating | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
income, innovation, jobs and inspiration. Humans are built to go | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
over the hill. We explored the earth and we are now looking towards the | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
space, from this one planet in this one average solar system, which is | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
one of many in the universe. To say that we are not going to explore | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
space is myopic. Secondly, going into space is as much about our own | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
planet, and looking back at Earth. Those images you have from space | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
help us to understand that we need to protect and look after this | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
planet. So it is multifaceted why we need to look after space. Andrew, | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
for everyone pound we put in we get ?10 back. Is it a no-brainer? I am | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
of the generation of Star Wars and Star Trek. It's a beautiful thing | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
and we should study it. In the introduction there it said that the | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
one thing space exploration should have taught us is that we should | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
better look after our own planet. But that is not happening. We need | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
to look after this one before we go and mess any others up. There is | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
irony in the danger. For all the effort we put into finding may be | :25:21. | :25:28. | |
microbial life on another planet, we are having mass extinction events on | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
Earth. The moment we start imagining that there is a possible escape | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
route from here, that we might be able to live somewhere else, I think | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
is wildly impractical. It almost gives us a psychological excuse to | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
not look after the very planet we've already got. Let's find out how | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
practical that is. Emma is speaking to someone about that. We are joined | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
by Dr Helen Fraser, a senior lecturer in astronomy at the open | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
University. Do you agree with Stephen Hawking? He suggests we will | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
eventually get to the point of no return on earth. Do you agree? It is | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
a bit difficult. What we do with our space exploration at the moment is | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
we combine robotic and human exploration. Everyone has been very | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
focused this week on the human exploration element, but the whole | :26:23. | :26:24. | |
point of what the government is trying to say with the spaceport is | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
that we have end to end access to space. Everyone has a mobile phone | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
in our pocket with a GPS system, and that is part of our infrastructure | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
here on earth. But do people do a good enough job of communicating the | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
benefits to people? I am already seeing the comments coming in on | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
social media saying, we are living in austerity, so why should we | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
invest in exploration to another planet? It is really important. We | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
should have some perspective on this. What I like to say is that | :26:58. | :27:07. | |
when you get your tax return, at the bottom you get some kind of pie | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
chart with the grass showing where all your money has gone in paying | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
your taxes. A tiny sliver of that is called other, and a tiny sliver of | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
that is all the money the government, as opposed to industry, | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
is investing into the space industry and space technology and research. | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
The space research, this opportunity to simply go and explore, is a very | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
tiny part. The majority of the money in the space industry is related to | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
looking down at the Earth, disaster relief, trying to get Internet to | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
third World countries, trying to exploit space opportunities and | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
lower Earth orbit for the benefit of mankind on earth. You've done a good | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
job of answering your critics there. Back to the studio. A tiny sliver of | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
money. It's hardly any money. We've got GPS, disaster relief, solar | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
panels, cellphone... Space gives us so much on earth. If it is focused | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
on the things that allow us to better understand ourselves and to | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
better live on planet Earth, that is great. But in the same Queen's | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
Speech that announced this package, there was no action to correct the | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
problem in the way that money going into renewable energy, vital for | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
tackling climate change, there was no action on that. We are a | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
situation where inconsistent policy and withdrawal of funds from | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
renewable energy looks like we are going to see a 95% drop in renewable | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
energy. Let's use it intelligently, but remember that we can look at the | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
stars, dream about them and study them, but let's not be tempted to | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
think we can escape planet Earth. The way we explore space is | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
changing. It used to be about government in it is now about | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
private industry. The guy behind Amazon is looking at moving | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
manufacturing off earth so that we can save planet Earth. It's not | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
about living on Mars, it's about improving our planet and improving | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
the technology we have. It is the technology that comes from space and | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
how we can utilise low Earth orbit for manufacturing, asteroid mining, | :29:29. | :29:30. | |
things that will improve life on Earth. You could think of the Moon | :29:31. | :29:38. | |
landings as being the Columbus moment, and we are now at the | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
Mayflower moment. You have to explore the technology that can | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
improve life on Earth. Not sure if there is life out there on space. | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
The viewers are divided on this. Caroline has said, can we just leave | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
the other planets alone? Thank you for all those comments. | :29:57. | :30:33. | |
Let's talk about the next generation. There could be a little | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
kid watching this it was inspired and goes on to save the earth by | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
working out which planet we could live on. This is really important | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
for future generations. I have got a daughter that I have taken to any | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
number of space exhibits and she is fascinated. We used to watch videos | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
of rockets taking off and the space shuttle. Absolutely. But let's keep | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
focused on the need to work things out where we are now. We are losing | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
the climate in which human civilisation evolved. And with the | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
best technology available, if you want to get a person to the nearest | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
earth like planet, it would take longer than history of civilisation. | :31:12. | :31:19. | |
But technology changes at rates that we can't understand. It extends | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
thousands of years. When we start the industrialisation of space, we | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
start to repeat the same economic model that we made a mess of an | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
earth. Curiosity is the essence of human existence. How can you be a | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
child born in this country inspired by Tim Peake and not be able to work | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
in this country? There is so much more out there. For every star you | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
see in the night sky, there are at least as many more planets. That was | :31:48. | :31:48. | |
more than one word! Thank you. For an actor, playing the lead role | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
in a Shakespearean play can be a real career high, | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
with the villainous That was certainly the case | :31:58. | :31:58. | |
for Mat Fraser who has just finished playing him as part of events | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
to commemorate Hull's year Mat was born with underdeveloped | :32:06. | :32:07. | |
arms after his mother took the drug He's said to be the first disabled | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
actor to play Richard III March on! Let us go if not to have | :32:12. | :32:33. | |
and then hand in hand to hell! Richard III, I just can't get my | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
head around the fact that you're the first disabled actor to take it on. | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
Were you surprised to learn that you would be? On one level I was very | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
surprised, but on another level pretty much every job I do I tend to | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
be the first disabled person who did that thing so it is par for the | :32:51. | :32:58. | |
course of my career. I understand that you found the language of | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
Shakespeare around disability quite liberating. It was the 1500s. The | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
work of the devil. Richard had a lot of self-loathing and it is glorious | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
liberation to be able to play that to the hilt. Said before my time | :33:11. | :33:20. | |
into this world. So unfashionable that dogs bark at me. For those that | :33:21. | :33:28. | |
don't remember the thalidomide scandal, what has your mother told | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
you about when you were born? After I had been born, I was taken away | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
and she waited for two hours and thought something was wrong and then | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
after four she thought the baby was dead. So when I was brought in to | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
have a shocking announcement about my short arms, she was just relieved | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
that I was alive. She loved my face and said it was like looking at the | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
face of an old friend and she immediately felt connection. The | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
rest took care of itself. You started out drumming. I did. My | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
mother had a friend who was a drummer who left his get round my | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
place. Then punk happened, which was very much it doesn't matter who you | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
are and what you are because you can be in a band. All these things | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
conspired at the same time to make me think I could be a drummer. And | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
in 2012 you ended up drumming with a rather famous band. Yes, I did God | :34:20. | :34:26. | |
Put A Smile On Your Face with Coldplay at the Olympic ceremony. | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
And seconds before we went on there was a moment when I looked up and | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
thought there were lots of people. Please don't let me drop my sticks! | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
But then I looked around and saw the band next to me and realised I knew | :34:40. | :34:48. | |
how to do it. How did you get into acting? What was the motivation for | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
that? I English teacher when I was 13. I loved him and he loved me, but | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
when I announced my intention to audition for the school play, and | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
saw his face, I thought he was embarrassed and scared and I | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
wondered why. I thought about it and it dissuaded me from an acting | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
career at that point. Then in 1994 at the Oval house theatre I saw a | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
production about cerebral palsy and the whole audience of non-disabled | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
people were laughing and enjoying themselves and I thought that I was | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
wrong. I have my rights. You are not even American. I have the right to | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
refuse service and I am refusing to serve you. This place is overpriced | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
anyway. Your breakthrough came with the US hit drama American Horror | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
Story. Yes, C Rees four was set in a freak show in 1952 and I played | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
Paul. You haven't sold a single ticket. We only put up the banner | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
half an hour ago. The town hasn't gotten wind of your new act. I read | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
that you came out as disabled. Why did you use that language? I use | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
that phrase because we all understand it from a gay | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
perspective. Up until that point I wasn't comfortable in the company of | :36:03. | :36:04. | |
young kids because they would ask why my arms were like that. I didn't | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
want to talk about it. I went to an audition for judge Dredd, this'll | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
celesta Stallone film, for the job as a mutant and I didn't get the job | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
because I am a mutant. It messed with my head so much that I broke | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
down and I had this hugely emotional moment where I realised I had been | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
living a pretence for a lot of my life and I just couldn't do it any | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
more. I am disabled, deal with it or get out of my life. I was 30. It | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
took a while. On the way through this varied career, do you have a | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
belief system? What gets you through? I'm not religious at all. I | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
am a hard-core atheist but I believe that everything is energy. If all | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
energy is omnipresent, which it is because it is everything, and that | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
is also God, it is where me and my mum, who is a Church of England | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
lady, Canterbury on the nature of existence. This idea that God is | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
energy and energy is God. -- we can agree on the nature of existence. | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
You live in America and you are trying to import a hugely special | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
part of our culture, pantomime. Doing jack and the Beanstalk at my | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
local theatre, the lady will not wait around to be fallen in love | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
with. She will do the rescuing. The whole community will have to chop | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
down the Beanstalk. I want to imbue this sense of community plurality | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
into our version. Do you think below is side of New York is ready for | :37:32. | :37:34. | |
British pantomime? They are not ready because they don't know what | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
they will get but hopefully when they engage, they will get it back. | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
I wish you the best of luck. Thank you. | :37:43. | :37:44. | |
The Church of England is doing some serious soul searching | :37:45. | :37:46. | |
after the conclusions of a damning report this week into | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
The review, An Abuse Of Faith, by Dame Moira Gibb says that senior | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
figures in the Church colluded with a former bishop | :37:54. | :37:55. | |
The case concerns Peter Ball, now 85, | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
who was jailed for 32 months in October 2015 after admitting | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
sex offences against 18 teenagers and young men. | :38:05. | :38:06. | |
The offences were carried out between | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, says the report makes | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
Martin Bashir, the BBC's religious affairs correspondent, | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
has been looking into this story and joins us now. | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
This report does not make pleasant reading for the church. Even the | :38:24. | :38:33. | |
title, And Abuse Of Faith, is very pointed. It is a devastating | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
critique of the church of the 1990s, which was more concerned about its | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
reputation than it was about the children and their welfare. In fact | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
it goes further. Dame Moira Gibb, the head of social services at | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
Kensington and Chelsea Council, says that the church actually colluded | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
with Peter Ball's predatory behaviour. This is what she said | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
when I spoke to her immediately after publication. Even though it | :38:58. | :39:05. | |
was 25 years ago and our understanding of abuse, particularly | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
of adults then, is different to what it is now, by any standards I think | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
we would have to say that the response is lamentable. Lamentable? | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
Indeed. You used the word colluding. Lamentable. What do they mean by | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
that? When Peter Ball accepted a police caution in 1993 for gross | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
indecency and stepped down as the Bishop of Gloucester, seven | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
individual young men wrote to the Archbishop of Canterbury, then | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
George Carey, at Lambeth Palace. Not one of those letters was passed to | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
the police. In fact George Carey didn't even put Peter Ball's name on | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
something known as the Lambeth list, a Rolodex, catalogue of individuals | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
about whom there were serious questions about their ongoing | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
ministry. The current Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, has | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
actually asked now Lord Carey to stand down from the only position he | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
currently holds, which is honorary assistant Bishop in the diocese of | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
Oxford. How is the church going to stop this kind of thing happening | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
again in the future? Dame Moira Gibb says the church has overhauled all | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
of its practices and there is training for every ordained | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
clergyman or member of the clergy. There are individual officers | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
appointed in every diocese and the church has got to report immediately | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
allegations of abuse to the authorities. The church has also | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
appointed Bishop responsible for the entire Church of England. He is the | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
Bishop of Bath and Wells, Peter Hancock. He also spoke to us after | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
the publication of the report. It is very clear that the church failed. | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
It failed consistently in a number of areas and in a number of ways and | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
therefore it compounded the abuse, the appalling abuse, that Peter Ball | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
and acted upon his victims. It is then that we think of particularly | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
today. Therefore we offer them a wholehearted apology. Do you think | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
the survivors of the abuse will feel vindicated by this? We have spoken | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
to several and they say there are parts of the report that they are | :41:07. | :41:08. | |
pleased with but the fact of the matter is that it has taken 25 years | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
to see any kind of justice. I don't think you will find many survivors | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
or victims of Peter Ball applauding the Church of England for this | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
report today. It is worth pointing out that Lord Carey has apologised | :41:22. | :41:22. | |
to the victims. Thank you. Many of us enjoyed, | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
or in my case endured, Sun worshippers were sweating | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
all over the place. But we're on a downward | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
slope because the days That's because the longest day, | :41:33. | :41:34. | |
the summer solstice, It's always celebrated amidst | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
the beautiful stones at the ancient site of Stonehenge but also | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
at rather more modern places too, It is the middle of the night and I | :41:45. | :42:04. | |
have just arrived for an event at the Shard. I am not sure what to | :42:05. | :42:13. | |
expect but I can't wait to find out. I'm heading for a party, glittering | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
event to mark the summer solstice. We are going up to the 68th floor. I | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
wonder what will be up there. Others are heading to the Shard in London | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
to celebrate the longest day in the UK's highest building, nearly 800 | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
feet above the capital. They are gathering for Morning Gloryville, | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
part of the conscious clothing movement. I don't know what that is | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
either but I am hoping that Sam Mayo can enlighten me. I want to look the | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
part. I have got flowers with me but no glitter. Don't worry. I have got | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
glitter! What is Morning Gloryville? It is an immersive conscious | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
experience where we get everyone to raise their way into the day. It is | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
about community, it is about positivity, it is about love, and it | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
is really about inspiring society to start making positive change in the | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
world. Our events are first thing in the morning, from 6:30am, until | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
10:30am usually. What can I expect? We are going to walk into Gong | :43:19. | :43:26. | |
meditation and we are going to get cleansed by lovely sounds. Then we | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
will go into the solstice sun hailing ceremony led by two | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
ceremonial list, and shaming, pagan and an energy priestess. -- a | :43:35. | :43:47. | |
Shaman. We will really be connecting with nature. It is five o'clock and | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
I would normally be in bed but here they are connecting with the biggest | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
moment of the summer solstice, the rising of the sun. Other people hear | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
it seems to be an uplifting experience. Everyone who would like | :43:58. | :44:08. | |
to welcome the angels and guides, please say yes. Yes! Fantastic. I | :44:09. | :44:16. | |
didn't join this bit but everyone else seemed happy to carry on | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
regardless. This is an opportunity to honour the four directions, | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
north, south, east and west and the energies of what they hold. When we | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
do that, it takes us into a sacred space and an understanding that | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
without north, south, east and west, we don't exist. The summer solstice | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
is a marker of time, really. It shows us that every day is | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
different. To appreciate that, everything changes from one day to | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
the next. It is pagan, it is an earthy conscious get-together. The | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
faith is in the heart. Ceremony is over, it is time for the rave to | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
start. Included in the ?45 price tag. But at this party there is | :44:59. | :45:08. | |
strictly no drugs and no alcohol. When you are in a city that is | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
fuelled with many different substances and energies and you are | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
clubbing with lots of types of music, to be able to come to a space | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
that is so clear, you can gain that confidence. You're not taking | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
anything, you are ready in your own spirit, and you can go wow, this is | :45:27. | :45:27. | |
just incredible. I went to the bar for a quick shot | :45:28. | :45:40. | |
of lemon and ginger. Lovely. I think Morning Gloryville is a celebration | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
of diversity. People are all different ages, colours, | :45:45. | :45:53. | |
ethnicities... This morning we had the gong bar opening ceremony. Today | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
has had that extra element. We started in the most amazing way, to | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
greet the summer for the summer solstice. I chose to join the yoga | :46:03. | :46:12. | |
activity. I need to wind down! Doing yoga up The Shard. That is pretty | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
cool. It is hard to believe it is 8am and down below people are | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
heading to work. Then, it's all over. This was probably one of the | :46:21. | :46:30. | |
most eclectic gatherings of people I've ever witnessed. I'm not sure | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
about how much the spiritual aspects of this event counted with the | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
partygoers, but they all seemed positive and energetic, and at least | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
went home without hangovers, after a group hug. | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
Now our final discussion - and it's a controversial one. | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
The British Medical Association will this week be deciding | :46:52. | :46:53. | |
whether to recommend that abortion be decriminalised. | :46:54. | :46:55. | |
The existing time limit is 24 weeks from conception. | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
Even then, two doctors must agree that continuing the pregnancy | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
would be harmful for either the woman or the unborn child. | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
In Northern Ireland, the law is much stricter. | :47:08. | :47:09. | |
Terminations are only permitted if a woman's life is at risk | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
or there is a permanent or serious risk | :47:14. | :47:15. | |
But the BMA conference, which starts today in Bournemouth, will debate | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
whether women should be allowed to terminate their pregnancy right | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
up until the due date, and for any reason. | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
Joining the panel now are Kate Smurthwaite, | :47:29. | :47:30. | |
Caroline Farrow, a Catholic broadcaster and writer, | :47:31. | :47:39. | |
and we are rejoined by the sociologist Ben Carrington and | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
Kate, starting with you. We will get your title right this time! The | :47:43. | :47:57. | |
current law gives the right for someone to choose whether or not to | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
have their baby. Surely 24 weeks is enough time? For the vast majority | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
of women, of course. The vast majority of terminations happened a | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
long time before that. Most people realise they are pregnant and that | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
they don't want the baby very soon. But there is a number of women for | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
whom the problems arise after 24 weeks, like women who are too young | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
to be having periods so they do not realise they can get pregnant. They | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
may not know anything about the facts of life and being abused. They | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
find out they are pregnant at 25 weeks, and what often happens is | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
they are taken out of the UK to another country where the law is | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
different and doesn't have the 24 week limit. This is horrific. These | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
are women who have gone through all sorts of awful things. We're not | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
saying we want to keep having abortions up until the end of the | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
pregnancy term. We are saying that this is a difficult decision, and | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
the decision shouldn't be made by the government or the authorities. | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
It should be made privately between a woman and her doctor having a | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
sensible conversation with all the facts in front of them and deciding | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
what is right for her. Would you set a time limit? That is a conversation | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
between a woman and a doctor. For me, sure, there's a time where I | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
wouldn't feel comfortable with it, but we shouldn't push that to | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
someone else. Should it ever be a crime for a woman to do what she | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
wants to with her body? We have to remember in the case of an abortion | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
with the pregnant woman, the baby is not part of the woman's body, it is | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
separate and independent of the woman. It doesn't even have a | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
parasitic relationship. It's not just a question of what a woman does | :49:46. | :49:54. | |
with her body, but the rights of the unborn child. Every single | :49:55. | :49:56. | |
embryology textbook, undisputed scientific fact is that human life | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
is formed at conception, and what happens after that is a matter of | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
great social and moral public interest. It's not a private matter. | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
Human life is formed at conception, Emma? We are joined by Matthew | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
Piccaver, a GP working in Suffolk. What is the process the getting an | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
abortion in Britain? For the majority of the cases I see, a woman | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
will discover she's pregnant early on, we will have a discussion about | :50:27. | :50:35. | |
what she would like to do with the pregnancy, and then it is a fair | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
amount of paperwork for me, then referred to a clinic at the local | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
hospital, then referred to another doctor for some counselling, and | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
options are discussed from there. Watched you think of the argument | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
that people come in and take those decisions lightly, they haven't | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
thought about what they want? I would struggle to agree with that, | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
because people I meet who are coming in to talk about termination of | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
pregnancy have thought long and hard about it before booking their | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
appointment with me. I would struggle to find a case in my | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
experience of that. It's not everybody, but I would struggle to | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
fight a case where that decision hasn't thoroughly been thought | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
through and discussed by loved ones, friends and family, partners and so | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
on. What do you make of the protesters that stand outside | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
abortion clinics, a site we are seeing more and more in the UK? It | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
is a difficult question. We have the right to discuss our opinions. As a | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
doctor, my job is not to be a barrier to the care of the woman in | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
need. Looking at some of the historical cases in what some people | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
did in the past in order to procure an abortion, I think the harms of | :51:51. | :51:58. | |
having a medical termination can be much less than those caused by home | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
abortions and so on. The horror stories we heard and the death that | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
resulted from that. If the law was changed to allow abortion right up | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
to the due date, or later than we have at the moment, do you think we | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
would see a rise in those abortions? I'm not convinced we would. The | :52:17. | :52:23. | |
number of abortions that occur, 90% occur before 13 weeks. A small | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
proportion occur after that date, for things such as serious deformity | :52:29. | :52:37. | |
to the developing foetus, and also potential significant harms to | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
women. Those are measuring in the hundreds, so a fairly small amount a | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
year. Thank you for telling us what you have seen in your GP surgery. | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
Emma, thank you. Ruth, can you say why people think abortion is | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
acceptable, especially in the early stages? Yes, I can. I hate | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
everything I know about it, but I wouldn't insist that somebody who'd | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
been raped or somebody in terrible trauma shouldn't be allowed to have | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
an abortion. But what I would say is that you should never bought a | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
viable baby. I think that is atrocious. I cannot see the | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
difference between that and straightforward murder. So there is | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
a moral difference between a collection of cells and a foetus? | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
Yes. We are talking about children who are viable being aborted, and | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
that is monstrous. Is it not monstrous to kill of foetuses | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
because they are one gender or another? This comes up every time | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
when we start to talk about abortion, this discussion of rape or | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
incest. We end up having a conversation about the right reasons | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
for abortion,' is. I look at it from a different perspective. What are | :53:56. | :54:03. | |
the right reasons to force a woman to be pregnant against her will? For | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
me, that is a cruel and unusual punishment. I'm somebody who's had a | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
termination, which was overseas in a country with different rules. I | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
didn't know what the rules were when I realised I was pregnant and I | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
didn't want to be. But what ever the law had been, what ever the | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
circumstances where abortion was available, I would have gone in and | :54:25. | :54:37. | |
said, yes, that's me. If they'd said, only if you've been raped, I | :54:38. | :54:39. | |
would have said, yes, I've been raped. I would have lied about my | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
age. There's nothing I wouldn't have lied about. We put restrictions on | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
abortion, but what I hear is, go and lie to your doctor. And that is a | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
bad place. Should the Lord get involved in this, then? Yes. | :54:53. | :55:01. | |
Sometimes we assume that people aren't against abortions. I would | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
assume everyone is against abortion, in the same way we are against heart | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
attacks. But the question is, should the person who is involved have a | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
right to decide what happens? And I think, yes. We are focusing on this | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
24 weeks. The key is to decriminalise abortion in the first | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
place. There are discussions coming from the US that are often around | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
women's health care. In a state like Texas there have been a tremendous | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
attack on women rights and access to abortion. Texas has some of the | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
worst infant mortality rates in the Western world, and that is directly | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
connected to the religious right attack on the right of women to have | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
an abortion. A mix of views here. What about at home? | :55:50. | :56:18. | |
Access to abortions should be a human rights. A mix of views there. | :56:19. | :56:27. | |
It is really encouraging to see people admitting that abortion is a | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
tragedy, and the right to life. There was a poll carried out a | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
couple of weeks ago in May, and it showed that our legislation is out | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
of step with public opinion, and seriously so. 70% of women who were | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
polled think that the current abortion limit at 24 weeks is too | :56:49. | :56:55. | |
high. Over 90% of women want to see sex selective abortion illegal. When | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
parliament voted on it, they said, no, we will keep it as it is, so | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
technically, someone can abort a baby because it is the wrong sex. | :57:05. | :57:11. | |
79% of women want to see a mandatory five day consultation period before | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
a woman has an abortion. I think it was over 76% want to make sure that | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
two doctors sign off on it to make sure a woman is not coerced. We talk | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
about safe, legal abortion. Last year, the Care Quality Commission, | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
who regulates abortion clinics, temporarily shut down a clinic. They | :57:33. | :57:41. | |
also produced a damning report of a clinic in Merseyside. These are | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
damning things. This situation is, you can find a poll that shows all | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
sorts of things. When we put these restrictions on abortion, like the | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
thing in Northern Ireland and people travelling over every week, what | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
happens is that women who are wealthy, well educated and have | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
freedom will travel and get the service they want. These | :58:05. | :58:11. | |
restrictions put restrictions on poor, working-class women. Thank you | :58:12. | :58:19. | |
very much for a good debate. That is nearly all from us this week. | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
Many thanks to all our guests and you at home | :58:24. | :58:25. | |
But why don't you join Emma for live chat online after the show? | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
Yes, I'll be talking to Sarah Cruddas about space exploration. | :58:30. | :58:31. | |
So why don't you boldly go with me to | :58:32. | :58:34. | |
In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole | :58:35. | :58:40. |