Episode 2 Sunday Morning Live

Episode 2

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On today's programme: In the aftermath of a van driving


into Muslims leaving prayers, we ask how can we prevent a rise


Also on the programme: Doctors are debating whether the abortion laws


are out of date. Should the time limit be extended?


And should we invest in the space race to Mars to help save the earth?


And Emma Barnett is here as usual to sample your views.


We want you to get in touch with your views on our


You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter.


Don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.


Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.


Texts are charged at your standard message rate.


Email us at [email protected]


However you choose to get in touch, please don't forget to include your


name so I can get you involved in our heated discussions.


My horse, my horse! My kingdom for a horse!


Later I meet Mat Fraser, said to be the first


Pretty much everything I do I tend to be the first disabled person to


do that thing! It is part of the course for my career.


This week began with a group of Muslim worshippers leaving


prayers for Ramadan and walking straight into a nightmare.


One man died and several people were injured after a van ploughed


into them outside a mosque in Finsbury Park.


Darren Osborne has been charged with terrorism-related murder


and attempted murder following the incident.


We can't discuss this case in detail because of


But after the news about Finsbury Park broke,


both extremist Muslims and the far right took to the internet to use it


So our first discussion today is how do we stop the rise in hate


Joining me here in the studio are Professor Ben Carrington,


a sociologist specialising in race, gender and culture,


Ruth Dudley-Edwards a journalist and broadcaster, Shaista Aziz


Tom Slater is the Deputy Editor of Spiked Online.


We have had a string of incidents in the last few months. What kind of


atmosphere has that created? Fragile atmosphere where people are


frightened and scared and understandably so. It is important


how we discuss these issues. There are some narratives that we need to


unpack. One is the notion that far right extremism is a new phenomenon


that has suddenly emerged in the past weeks or months which is simply


not the case. We are not too far away from Soho, the so-called mail


bomber, where David Copeland went out and killed three people and


injured scores more. He targeted certain areas, the gay area of Soho,


bricklaying and Brixton. And Anders Breivik killed dozens of people in


Norway. Extremism is not new. Many people deny the existence of


Islamophobia. How do we address the context if we deny the framework? On


that first point, how did the media report those cases of far right


extremism in your opinion? You tend to find in these moments that they


are isolated as a lone wolf. Mental health issues are immediately put on


the agenda and they don't get to stand in for all white people, as we


do with Islamic inspired terrorism. Are you blaming the media? The media


has been appalling in these issues. You are a journalist. It is you,


your colleagues and your peers. It is your fault. Fortunately I am not


a newspaper editor so I don't take the rap for any of it. Would you


blame the media? I always blame the media actually for concurring in


covering up discussion. I think that has been one of the big problems we


have had for the last couple of decades. We have not been honest in


conversation. Every time there is an exhibition of Islamic extremism and


Islamism, and it has nothing to do with Islam, which politicians say,


which is rubbish, because we have got to talk about the truth. We


should be emphasising what a terrific country this is and how


extraordinarily tolerant it is. I was looking at research on European


countries and their attitudes to Muslims and the UK was the least


negative of the ten countries I looked at. There were negative


responses in Hungary of something like 70% and down to 27% in the UK.


It is a great tradition of tolerance and we should applaud it. That is a


positive picture. The media, are they reporting terrorism and far


right extremism, which many people say is terrorism, fairly? The first


thing to point out is context. When some terrorism is described as a


lone wolf or crazed individual or whatever, however it is couched, the


is missing. The context is that there has been a fivefold increase


in reported hate crime in the City of London. Sadiq Khan has said that


terrorism is terrorism and he is absolutely right. Posed Manchester


there has been a 500% increase in hate crime. We need to make sure


that when we are putting on these issues, the context is there. There


is a mounting catalogue of reported hate crime taking place in this


country. Is that because of the way it is reported? The media is a big


term to use that we have got to break that down. There is a lot of


inflammatory coverage. A lot of information that is being spun in


that way which is definitely feeding into misinformation. Is the


inflammatory coverage that some people say is flaring up terrorism


and reaction, is that to blame? I don't think so. There is a


tremendous double standard in place as Ruth has gestured to. Whenever


there is an Islamist attack, people are quick to say, and rightly, that


you shouldn't extrapolate to the religion itself. We need to talk


about these things carefully and I agree with that. But as soon as


there is something that appears to be a far right extremist attack, you


don't just hear discussion about extremist publications, you may


discussion about the Daily Mail, The Sun, cartoons in broadsheet


newspapers showing the van used in this attack with the Daily Mail and


The Sun plastered on this. The far right threat is being defined down


in many respects and what it expresses is a contempt for white


working-class people, who are seen as a pogrom in waiting. We just need


one Katie Hopkins column to hop into. That is deeply disturbing.


Your response, Ben? I agree that the term the media is just too broad. It


is ludicrous to pretend that the Daily Mail and The Sun are defenders


of the white working class. Nobody has done more to denigrate them than


those publications. It is a slippage between the right and the far right.


I don't think there is a far right extremist. If you look at their


views, they would say Islam doesn't belong in Europe, and they don't


like multiculturalism, issues which are an issue in The Sun and Spiked.


Those are blurred. The gap between Spike magazine and many other


publications is slipping to the far right? That is ludicrous because we


are progressive humanist magazine and we are not right wing hate


peddlers by any stretch of imagination. We don't have a


particularly pronounced problem with far right extremism in this country


so that when people talk that the threat of it they have got to define


everything down. Over the past week you heard people like Douglas


Murray, someone I disagree with on many counts, but being referred to


in the same dress as Andrew Chowdhury. Douglas Murray has not


been for expressing support for terrorist groups. This slippage


demonstrates something we can take some heart from, which is the story


of far right extremism in this country over the past 30 or 40


years, which is one of terminal decline. That is not true. It is


true. If you go from the 1970s, national front, the BNP, any end we


have very sad protest groups like the endless defence league, who


yesterday could barely get 50 people out. So what about the hate crimes?


Far right extremists are using the internet in the same way as Islamist


extremists. They are gathering online, they are connecting with


other groups in Europe. It is not true to say that the threat is going


down. It is actually going up. If you look at what the security


minister said in relation to the attack in Finsbury Park, he said the


government is aware of far right groups operating. We cannot deny


that this is happening and we cannot say it is going down because it is


not. Divided opinion here. What have you got for us?


Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of TellMAMA, an organisation


Good morning. Have you got evidence that hate crimes have gone up? We


have got evidence that there are large spikes and peaks when there


are major national and international incidents. The baseline is certainly


rising but there are very large peaks and troughs. They are


predominately after major Islamist terrorist attacks. So the numbers


are up. Where are they up to at the moment and who perpetrate these


crimes against Muslims? We have got to make it clear distinction between


hate crimes and hate incidents. People can report in because they


are targeted because of a characteristic of theirs. Most of


them are opportunistic. People see somebody visibly from the Muslim


community and they say something. The vast majority of these incidents


would be general abuse and thankfully the number of results is


small. We see these large numbers of incidents straight after national


incidents like terror attacks in our country. Are they up at the moment?


They are up at the moment. After Manchester, they were very high and


we reported over 530% increase seven days before versus seven days after.


After London Bridge again they went up. What we didn't see after the


Westminster terrorist attack was any form of Spike and we are looking


into that. That is quite unique. Something didn't happen around hate


crime after Westminster. What other long-term effects of Islamophobic


attacks on the Muslim community in Britain? The long-term impact is it


sense of fear, where Muslim women, in particularly visibly Muslim


women, they are not going out after dark, they are taking off their


headscarves. It is the impact. It is wide at the moment. We have got to


put that in perspective. Hate crime when it takes place is general abuse


and we have got to put that sense of fear in perspective. Let me also say


that there is a general sense where communities start to distrust


themselves if these hate crimes happen time after time after major


Islamist attacks. That sense of distrust also impact on communities


and how they perceive each other. That is very interesting. Thank you.


A sense of fear and distrust. How much a social media to blame for


that? I think that is one of the interesting things that has been


pointed out in relation to this. When hate crimes and hate incidents


are reported, I think it is misleading. People assume there has


been a 500 fold rise in physical attacks and often what it comes down


to is verbal abuse and abuse on social media. All of which is


horrendous and should be condemned in the strongest terms, but my


concern is that in this discussion it is conflated with violent attacks


or nobody takes the effort to differentiate out those parts. If we


are talking about people feeling anxious, if you constantly talk up


the threat of violence is a phobia and extremism, that will do far more


damage to communities and their sense of cohesion than dealing with


them properly and talking about them on their sense of scale. It is


reckless to talk up the threat as much as people do. There are Muslims


who do not feel safe in this country which is not good, whether it is on


social media or actual attacks. Part of the reason is what they are being


fed by their own communities. It crime as opposed to hate incidents.


Somebody shouting abuse is nasty, very bad manners. So is an abusive


tweet. Absolutely but it is all over the internet. But if it is targeted


at Muslims, it is bad, isn't it? If it is targeted at anybody, it is


bad, of course it is. There are lots of very sad people on the internet


but we have got to get it in context. I speak as an Irish


immigrant and I lived here through all the bombing in the 70s and 80s


and I was astounded by the intolerance of the English. If


occasionally somebody said something slightly rude about by accent, I


didn't report it as a hate crime. We have got to get a sense of


perspective. Telling Muslims how welcome they are in this country and


telling Muslim is what a tolerant country it is and that they should


be proud of it would be a start. You have spent a lot of time in America.


Similar tensions there. Can we learn anything from them and what is it


like in American society at the moment? We have similar


conversations in the USA right now. We have the same patronising


discourse towards Muslims, telling them that Islamophobic threats, kids


being terrorised at school, being victimised, is just a form of bad


manners and Islamophobia doesn't exist. You will find some similar


parallels to what is happening in the UK right now. I agree it is


important to distinguish between not conflating Islamophobia and the


context to broadly, but sometimes the opposite takes place from the


right. They define it so narrowly, that only seven explicitly claiming


to be attacking someone because they are Muslim and inflicting bodily


damage or even death gets to count and everything else just doesn't


count, which is a ridiculous standard. Most things that we call


forms of persecution and hate just would not qualify. I will come to


you in a moment on that but what are people saying at home? People are


getting in touch with what we like, solutions. Sarah says: If we want to


change division... This is not a very lovely to end on


but we do like your comments so keep them coming in.


Emma, that will spark a debate. Not all cultures are compatible. The


thing is, we cannot dismiss what British people in this country are


going through. I spend a lot of time talking to people as a journalist,


and I've had lots of women contact me to tell me that they are nervous


and scared of going out because they visibly look like Muslims. That's a


disgrace. If anyone is suggesting that's not happening, or not


happening in the way the police figures show, that's not true. So


what is sparking the fear? Lived experiences. I was subjected to a


hate crime last week. The police are investigating. I urge anyone who is


facing physical or verbal abuse on the streets, racial abuse, to tell


the police. I have been to the police twice in the last couple of


years. This is not a figment of my imagination. I had someone tried to


punch me in my face and verbally abused me in my own home city. This


didn't happen before. Something is going on here. We shouldn't talk


things up to make people anxious and nervous, but we shouldn't pretend


it's not happening either. There is context behind everything. How can


we heal the divide in society, Tom? We need to stop treating the public


like idiots. That is the thing that is the most striking. In the past


two years, 36 people have been killed in terror attacks, one of


those by a far right extremists. I think people are still bemused that


we are having this discussion about far right extremism in the context


we are having. Muslim communities are unable to talk about this,


despite the fact we know this is a small problem in that community. The


second thing that drives it is that the white working class, the belief


that the white working class are some kind of pogrom. It's diverted


attention. We could continue this debate for a long time, but we are


out of time. We've been exploring how to tackle


some of the divisions And one way of doing that is to find


out more about each other's customs. Today is the Muslim festival of Ede,


which marks the end of Ramadan. And Wendy Robbins went along to a tasty


event. Chef Brother Sullivan is cooking today for hundreds of


people, but they will not get to eat his curry until later tonight. He


will not get to sample it, because it is the holy month of Ramadan,


where Muslims do not get to eat between sunrise and sunset. I am


fasting as well, and I cannot wait until tonight's iftar. I am so


hungry. How can you do this to me! I am with Brother Sullivan. He must be


one of the most disciplined men in the UK today. You have been fasting


for 12 hours? Seven and a half hours to go. Isn't it difficult to cook


this delicious food while you are fasting? I do feel hungry. I am


starving. How am I going to manage? Just be patient. I'm not the only


one for whom this is a new experience. You are not Muslim. Why


are you fasting? I am doing it mainly out of solidarity to my


Muslim colleagues. We can try to understand how people feel, but


until you experience it, you don't know how hard it can be with not


having any fluids or food. It's really hard. Brother Sullivan helps


supply the open iftar in Central London, where Muslims and


non-Muslims get together to break the fast. What it means to me is


family, community and solidarity. During the month of fasting, I get


to appreciate it, to know what it means to feel first or hunger. How


many people are you getting on a nightly basis now? Around 300 or 350


people. That's a lot of people. How'd you describe the mix of


people? 60 or 70% are of the Islamic faith, and the rest are not of the


Islamic faith or are no faith. What does it mean to you to see people


like this? We live in the same community but often we do not engage


with each other. It is a good opportunity to engage with others


and have a meal with them in the heart of London. The fast is broken


by eating the traditional dried dates. Now it is time for the main


course, the famous chicken curry. Right, I'm going to try your food.


Delicious! I could eat three of these. Have you got any more? Yes, I


have! I've felt really welcome, and it's been a really enjoyable


evening. Just from talking to people and understanding why anyone has


different beliefs from you, understanding that and getting to


know that is really important. Like you said, it is peculiar to spirit.


You wake up and you enjoy it, and you just enjoy being with people.


What were your thoughts after the events of Monday night? Yesterday I


had my flatmates, and they were like, we really want to come. I


said, I didn't invite you last week. They said, after what happened at


Finsbury, we need to start together, and we need to show that we are with


you. To see non-Muslim people, it's wonderful, you know? It's not just


about Muslims. It's about something peaceful that we are doing together.


Some are blaming their Muslim counterparts, and we know it's not


everybody. But we are singing from the same hymn sheet. It has been a


very long day. How have you found your vast? It was much harder than I


thought it would be. I was starving for most of the day and I really


wanted water, but I'm actually really glad I'd did it. That first


taste of food tonight made it worthwhile!


Still to come on Sunday Morning Live: What is the Church of England


And we greet the sun on the summer solstice at the rave where drink


The government said in the speech this week that it is committed to


growing the space industry and build a spaceport. Cosmologist Professor


Stephen Hawking has added his voice as well, saying we need to be much


more ambitious and set our sights on Mars. Professor Tim Peake's exploits


last year reignited interest in all things space. This is the view of


planet Earth. But Stephen Hawking said in a speech this week that we


should look beyond the space station, and sent a mission to the


moon by 2020, with a view to setting up a lunar base, which could take 30


years to build. He also says we should send people to Mars by 2025.


He acknowledges that there are problems on earth to address, with


global warming and climate change, but space travel is essential


precisely because our planet is under threat, and he predicted no


long-term future for humans on Earth.


So is Stephen Hawking right or is space exploration just


a vanity project and we'd be better off spending the money for the good


Joining us now are Sarah Cruddas, a space journalist, and


Andrew Simms, an author and campaigner.


Sarah, there are serious misgivings about the amount spent on space


science. In times of austerity, is it worthwhile? It is generating


income, innovation, jobs and inspiration. Humans are built to go


over the hill. We explored the earth and we are now looking towards the


space, from this one planet in this one average solar system, which is


one of many in the universe. To say that we are not going to explore


space is myopic. Secondly, going into space is as much about our own


planet, and looking back at Earth. Those images you have from space


help us to understand that we need to protect and look after this


planet. So it is multifaceted why we need to look after space. Andrew,


for everyone pound we put in we get ?10 back. Is it a no-brainer? I am


of the generation of Star Wars and Star Trek. It's a beautiful thing


and we should study it. In the introduction there it said that the


one thing space exploration should have taught us is that we should


better look after our own planet. But that is not happening. We need


to look after this one before we go and mess any others up. There is


irony in the danger. For all the effort we put into finding may be


microbial life on another planet, we are having mass extinction events on


Earth. The moment we start imagining that there is a possible escape


route from here, that we might be able to live somewhere else, I think


is wildly impractical. It almost gives us a psychological excuse to


not look after the very planet we've already got. Let's find out how


practical that is. Emma is speaking to someone about that. We are joined


by Dr Helen Fraser, a senior lecturer in astronomy at the open


University. Do you agree with Stephen Hawking? He suggests we will


eventually get to the point of no return on earth. Do you agree? It is


a bit difficult. What we do with our space exploration at the moment is


we combine robotic and human exploration. Everyone has been very


focused this week on the human exploration element, but the whole


point of what the government is trying to say with the spaceport is


that we have end to end access to space. Everyone has a mobile phone


in our pocket with a GPS system, and that is part of our infrastructure


here on earth. But do people do a good enough job of communicating the


benefits to people? I am already seeing the comments coming in on


social media saying, we are living in austerity, so why should we


invest in exploration to another planet? It is really important. We


should have some perspective on this. What I like to say is that


when you get your tax return, at the bottom you get some kind of pie


chart with the grass showing where all your money has gone in paying


your taxes. A tiny sliver of that is called other, and a tiny sliver of


that is all the money the government, as opposed to industry,


is investing into the space industry and space technology and research.


The space research, this opportunity to simply go and explore, is a very


tiny part. The majority of the money in the space industry is related to


looking down at the Earth, disaster relief, trying to get Internet to


third World countries, trying to exploit space opportunities and


lower Earth orbit for the benefit of mankind on earth. You've done a good


job of answering your critics there. Back to the studio. A tiny sliver of


money. It's hardly any money. We've got GPS, disaster relief, solar


panels, cellphone... Space gives us so much on earth. If it is focused


on the things that allow us to better understand ourselves and to


better live on planet Earth, that is great. But in the same Queen's


Speech that announced this package, there was no action to correct the


problem in the way that money going into renewable energy, vital for


tackling climate change, there was no action on that. We are a


situation where inconsistent policy and withdrawal of funds from


renewable energy looks like we are going to see a 95% drop in renewable


energy. Let's use it intelligently, but remember that we can look at the


stars, dream about them and study them, but let's not be tempted to


think we can escape planet Earth. The way we explore space is


changing. It used to be about government in it is now about


private industry. The guy behind Amazon is looking at moving


manufacturing off earth so that we can save planet Earth. It's not


about living on Mars, it's about improving our planet and improving


the technology we have. It is the technology that comes from space and


how we can utilise low Earth orbit for manufacturing, asteroid mining,


things that will improve life on Earth. You could think of the Moon


landings as being the Columbus moment, and we are now at the


Mayflower moment. You have to explore the technology that can


improve life on Earth. Not sure if there is life out there on space.


The viewers are divided on this. Caroline has said, can we just leave


the other planets alone? Thank you for all those comments.


Let's talk about the next generation. There could be a little


kid watching this it was inspired and goes on to save the earth by


working out which planet we could live on. This is really important


for future generations. I have got a daughter that I have taken to any


number of space exhibits and she is fascinated. We used to watch videos


of rockets taking off and the space shuttle. Absolutely. But let's keep


focused on the need to work things out where we are now. We are losing


the climate in which human civilisation evolved. And with the


best technology available, if you want to get a person to the nearest


earth like planet, it would take longer than history of civilisation.


But technology changes at rates that we can't understand. It extends


thousands of years. When we start the industrialisation of space, we


start to repeat the same economic model that we made a mess of an


earth. Curiosity is the essence of human existence. How can you be a


child born in this country inspired by Tim Peake and not be able to work


in this country? There is so much more out there. For every star you


see in the night sky, there are at least as many more planets. That was


more than one word! Thank you. For an actor, playing the lead role


in a Shakespearean play can be a real career high,


with the villainous That was certainly the case


for Mat Fraser who has just finished playing him as part of events


to commemorate Hull's year Mat was born with underdeveloped


arms after his mother took the drug He's said to be the first disabled


actor to play Richard III March on! Let us go if not to have


and then hand in hand to hell! Richard III, I just can't get my


head around the fact that you're the first disabled actor to take it on.


Were you surprised to learn that you would be? On one level I was very


surprised, but on another level pretty much every job I do I tend to


be the first disabled person who did that thing so it is par for the


course of my career. I understand that you found the language of


Shakespeare around disability quite liberating. It was the 1500s. The


work of the devil. Richard had a lot of self-loathing and it is glorious


liberation to be able to play that to the hilt. Said before my time


into this world. So unfashionable that dogs bark at me. For those that


don't remember the thalidomide scandal, what has your mother told


you about when you were born? After I had been born, I was taken away


and she waited for two hours and thought something was wrong and then


after four she thought the baby was dead. So when I was brought in to


have a shocking announcement about my short arms, she was just relieved


that I was alive. She loved my face and said it was like looking at the


face of an old friend and she immediately felt connection. The


rest took care of itself. You started out drumming. I did. My


mother had a friend who was a drummer who left his get round my


place. Then punk happened, which was very much it doesn't matter who you


are and what you are because you can be in a band. All these things


conspired at the same time to make me think I could be a drummer. And


in 2012 you ended up drumming with a rather famous band. Yes, I did God


Put A Smile On Your Face with Coldplay at the Olympic ceremony.


And seconds before we went on there was a moment when I looked up and


thought there were lots of people. Please don't let me drop my sticks!


But then I looked around and saw the band next to me and realised I knew


how to do it. How did you get into acting? What was the motivation for


that? I English teacher when I was 13. I loved him and he loved me, but


when I announced my intention to audition for the school play, and


saw his face, I thought he was embarrassed and scared and I


wondered why. I thought about it and it dissuaded me from an acting


career at that point. Then in 1994 at the Oval house theatre I saw a


production about cerebral palsy and the whole audience of non-disabled


people were laughing and enjoying themselves and I thought that I was


wrong. I have my rights. You are not even American. I have the right to


refuse service and I am refusing to serve you. This place is overpriced


anyway. Your breakthrough came with the US hit drama American Horror


Story. Yes, C Rees four was set in a freak show in 1952 and I played


Paul. You haven't sold a single ticket. We only put up the banner


half an hour ago. The town hasn't gotten wind of your new act. I read


that you came out as disabled. Why did you use that language? I use


that phrase because we all understand it from a gay


perspective. Up until that point I wasn't comfortable in the company of


young kids because they would ask why my arms were like that. I didn't


want to talk about it. I went to an audition for judge Dredd, this'll


celesta Stallone film, for the job as a mutant and I didn't get the job


because I am a mutant. It messed with my head so much that I broke


down and I had this hugely emotional moment where I realised I had been


living a pretence for a lot of my life and I just couldn't do it any


more. I am disabled, deal with it or get out of my life. I was 30. It


took a while. On the way through this varied career, do you have a


belief system? What gets you through? I'm not religious at all. I


am a hard-core atheist but I believe that everything is energy. If all


energy is omnipresent, which it is because it is everything, and that


is also God, it is where me and my mum, who is a Church of England


lady, Canterbury on the nature of existence. This idea that God is


energy and energy is God. -- we can agree on the nature of existence.


You live in America and you are trying to import a hugely special


part of our culture, pantomime. Doing jack and the Beanstalk at my


local theatre, the lady will not wait around to be fallen in love


with. She will do the rescuing. The whole community will have to chop


down the Beanstalk. I want to imbue this sense of community plurality


into our version. Do you think below is side of New York is ready for


British pantomime? They are not ready because they don't know what


they will get but hopefully when they engage, they will get it back.


I wish you the best of luck. Thank you.


The Church of England is doing some serious soul searching


after the conclusions of a damning report this week into


The review, An Abuse Of Faith, by Dame Moira Gibb says that senior


figures in the Church colluded with a former bishop


The case concerns Peter Ball, now 85,


who was jailed for 32 months in October 2015 after admitting


sex offences against 18 teenagers and young men.


The offences were carried out between


The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, says the report makes


Martin Bashir, the BBC's religious affairs correspondent,


has been looking into this story and joins us now.


This report does not make pleasant reading for the church. Even the


title, And Abuse Of Faith, is very pointed. It is a devastating


critique of the church of the 1990s, which was more concerned about its


reputation than it was about the children and their welfare. In fact


it goes further. Dame Moira Gibb, the head of social services at


Kensington and Chelsea Council, says that the church actually colluded


with Peter Ball's predatory behaviour. This is what she said


when I spoke to her immediately after publication. Even though it


was 25 years ago and our understanding of abuse, particularly


of adults then, is different to what it is now, by any standards I think


we would have to say that the response is lamentable. Lamentable?


Indeed. You used the word colluding. Lamentable. What do they mean by


that? When Peter Ball accepted a police caution in 1993 for gross


indecency and stepped down as the Bishop of Gloucester, seven


individual young men wrote to the Archbishop of Canterbury, then


George Carey, at Lambeth Palace. Not one of those letters was passed to


the police. In fact George Carey didn't even put Peter Ball's name on


something known as the Lambeth list, a Rolodex, catalogue of individuals


about whom there were serious questions about their ongoing


ministry. The current Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, has


actually asked now Lord Carey to stand down from the only position he


currently holds, which is honorary assistant Bishop in the diocese of


Oxford. How is the church going to stop this kind of thing happening


again in the future? Dame Moira Gibb says the church has overhauled all


of its practices and there is training for every ordained


clergyman or member of the clergy. There are individual officers


appointed in every diocese and the church has got to report immediately


allegations of abuse to the authorities. The church has also


appointed Bishop responsible for the entire Church of England. He is the


Bishop of Bath and Wells, Peter Hancock. He also spoke to us after


the publication of the report. It is very clear that the church failed.


It failed consistently in a number of areas and in a number of ways and


therefore it compounded the abuse, the appalling abuse, that Peter Ball


and acted upon his victims. It is then that we think of particularly


today. Therefore we offer them a wholehearted apology. Do you think


the survivors of the abuse will feel vindicated by this? We have spoken


to several and they say there are parts of the report that they are


pleased with but the fact of the matter is that it has taken 25 years


to see any kind of justice. I don't think you will find many survivors


or victims of Peter Ball applauding the Church of England for this


report today. It is worth pointing out that Lord Carey has apologised


to the victims. Thank you. Many of us enjoyed,


or in my case endured, Sun worshippers were sweating


all over the place. But we're on a downward


slope because the days That's because the longest day,


the summer solstice, It's always celebrated amidst


the beautiful stones at the ancient site of Stonehenge but also


at rather more modern places too, It is the middle of the night and I


have just arrived for an event at the Shard. I am not sure what to


expect but I can't wait to find out. I'm heading for a party, glittering


event to mark the summer solstice. We are going up to the 68th floor. I


wonder what will be up there. Others are heading to the Shard in London


to celebrate the longest day in the UK's highest building, nearly 800


feet above the capital. They are gathering for Morning Gloryville,


part of the conscious clothing movement. I don't know what that is


either but I am hoping that Sam Mayo can enlighten me. I want to look the


part. I have got flowers with me but no glitter. Don't worry. I have got


glitter! What is Morning Gloryville? It is an immersive conscious


experience where we get everyone to raise their way into the day. It is


about community, it is about positivity, it is about love, and it


is really about inspiring society to start making positive change in the


world. Our events are first thing in the morning, from 6:30am, until


10:30am usually. What can I expect? We are going to walk into Gong


meditation and we are going to get cleansed by lovely sounds. Then we


will go into the solstice sun hailing ceremony led by two


ceremonial list, and shaming, pagan and an energy priestess. -- a


Shaman. We will really be connecting with nature. It is five o'clock and


I would normally be in bed but here they are connecting with the biggest


moment of the summer solstice, the rising of the sun. Other people hear


it seems to be an uplifting experience. Everyone who would like


to welcome the angels and guides, please say yes. Yes! Fantastic. I


didn't join this bit but everyone else seemed happy to carry on


regardless. This is an opportunity to honour the four directions,


north, south, east and west and the energies of what they hold. When we


do that, it takes us into a sacred space and an understanding that


without north, south, east and west, we don't exist. The summer solstice


is a marker of time, really. It shows us that every day is


different. To appreciate that, everything changes from one day to


the next. It is pagan, it is an earthy conscious get-together. The


faith is in the heart. Ceremony is over, it is time for the rave to


start. Included in the ?45 price tag. But at this party there is


strictly no drugs and no alcohol. When you are in a city that is


fuelled with many different substances and energies and you are


clubbing with lots of types of music, to be able to come to a space


that is so clear, you can gain that confidence. You're not taking


anything, you are ready in your own spirit, and you can go wow, this is


just incredible. I went to the bar for a quick shot


of lemon and ginger. Lovely. I think Morning Gloryville is a celebration


of diversity. People are all different ages, colours,


ethnicities... This morning we had the gong bar opening ceremony. Today


has had that extra element. We started in the most amazing way, to


greet the summer for the summer solstice. I chose to join the yoga


activity. I need to wind down! Doing yoga up The Shard. That is pretty


cool. It is hard to believe it is 8am and down below people are


heading to work. Then, it's all over. This was probably one of the


most eclectic gatherings of people I've ever witnessed. I'm not sure


about how much the spiritual aspects of this event counted with the


partygoers, but they all seemed positive and energetic, and at least


went home without hangovers, after a group hug.


Now our final discussion - and it's a controversial one.


The British Medical Association will this week be deciding


whether to recommend that abortion be decriminalised.


The existing time limit is 24 weeks from conception.


Even then, two doctors must agree that continuing the pregnancy


would be harmful for either the woman or the unborn child.


In Northern Ireland, the law is much stricter.


Terminations are only permitted if a woman's life is at risk


or there is a permanent or serious risk


But the BMA conference, which starts today in Bournemouth, will debate


whether women should be allowed to terminate their pregnancy right


up until the due date, and for any reason.


Joining the panel now are Kate Smurthwaite,


Caroline Farrow, a Catholic broadcaster and writer,


and we are rejoined by the sociologist Ben Carrington and


Kate, starting with you. We will get your title right this time! The


current law gives the right for someone to choose whether or not to


have their baby. Surely 24 weeks is enough time? For the vast majority


of women, of course. The vast majority of terminations happened a


long time before that. Most people realise they are pregnant and that


they don't want the baby very soon. But there is a number of women for


whom the problems arise after 24 weeks, like women who are too young


to be having periods so they do not realise they can get pregnant. They


may not know anything about the facts of life and being abused. They


find out they are pregnant at 25 weeks, and what often happens is


they are taken out of the UK to another country where the law is


different and doesn't have the 24 week limit. This is horrific. These


are women who have gone through all sorts of awful things. We're not


saying we want to keep having abortions up until the end of the


pregnancy term. We are saying that this is a difficult decision, and


the decision shouldn't be made by the government or the authorities.


It should be made privately between a woman and her doctor having a


sensible conversation with all the facts in front of them and deciding


what is right for her. Would you set a time limit? That is a conversation


between a woman and a doctor. For me, sure, there's a time where I


wouldn't feel comfortable with it, but we shouldn't push that to


someone else. Should it ever be a crime for a woman to do what she


wants to with her body? We have to remember in the case of an abortion


with the pregnant woman, the baby is not part of the woman's body, it is


separate and independent of the woman. It doesn't even have a


parasitic relationship. It's not just a question of what a woman does


with her body, but the rights of the unborn child. Every single


embryology textbook, undisputed scientific fact is that human life


is formed at conception, and what happens after that is a matter of


great social and moral public interest. It's not a private matter.


Human life is formed at conception, Emma? We are joined by Matthew


Piccaver, a GP working in Suffolk. What is the process the getting an


abortion in Britain? For the majority of the cases I see, a woman


will discover she's pregnant early on, we will have a discussion about


what she would like to do with the pregnancy, and then it is a fair


amount of paperwork for me, then referred to a clinic at the local


hospital, then referred to another doctor for some counselling, and


options are discussed from there. Watched you think of the argument


that people come in and take those decisions lightly, they haven't


thought about what they want? I would struggle to agree with that,


because people I meet who are coming in to talk about termination of


pregnancy have thought long and hard about it before booking their


appointment with me. I would struggle to find a case in my


experience of that. It's not everybody, but I would struggle to


fight a case where that decision hasn't thoroughly been thought


through and discussed by loved ones, friends and family, partners and so


on. What do you make of the protesters that stand outside


abortion clinics, a site we are seeing more and more in the UK? It


is a difficult question. We have the right to discuss our opinions. As a


doctor, my job is not to be a barrier to the care of the woman in


need. Looking at some of the historical cases in what some people


did in the past in order to procure an abortion, I think the harms of


having a medical termination can be much less than those caused by home


abortions and so on. The horror stories we heard and the death that


resulted from that. If the law was changed to allow abortion right up


to the due date, or later than we have at the moment, do you think we


would see a rise in those abortions? I'm not convinced we would. The


number of abortions that occur, 90% occur before 13 weeks. A small


proportion occur after that date, for things such as serious deformity


to the developing foetus, and also potential significant harms to


women. Those are measuring in the hundreds, so a fairly small amount a


year. Thank you for telling us what you have seen in your GP surgery.


Emma, thank you. Ruth, can you say why people think abortion is


acceptable, especially in the early stages? Yes, I can. I hate


everything I know about it, but I wouldn't insist that somebody who'd


been raped or somebody in terrible trauma shouldn't be allowed to have


an abortion. But what I would say is that you should never bought a


viable baby. I think that is atrocious. I cannot see the


difference between that and straightforward murder. So there is


a moral difference between a collection of cells and a foetus?


Yes. We are talking about children who are viable being aborted, and


that is monstrous. Is it not monstrous to kill of foetuses


because they are one gender or another? This comes up every time


when we start to talk about abortion, this discussion of rape or


incest. We end up having a conversation about the right reasons


for abortion,' is. I look at it from a different perspective. What are


the right reasons to force a woman to be pregnant against her will? For


me, that is a cruel and unusual punishment. I'm somebody who's had a


termination, which was overseas in a country with different rules. I


didn't know what the rules were when I realised I was pregnant and I


didn't want to be. But what ever the law had been, what ever the


circumstances where abortion was available, I would have gone in and


said, yes, that's me. If they'd said, only if you've been raped, I


would have said, yes, I've been raped. I would have lied about my


age. There's nothing I wouldn't have lied about. We put restrictions on


abortion, but what I hear is, go and lie to your doctor. And that is a


bad place. Should the Lord get involved in this, then? Yes.


Sometimes we assume that people aren't against abortions. I would


assume everyone is against abortion, in the same way we are against heart


attacks. But the question is, should the person who is involved have a


right to decide what happens? And I think, yes. We are focusing on this


24 weeks. The key is to decriminalise abortion in the first


place. There are discussions coming from the US that are often around


women's health care. In a state like Texas there have been a tremendous


attack on women rights and access to abortion. Texas has some of the


worst infant mortality rates in the Western world, and that is directly


connected to the religious right attack on the right of women to have


an abortion. A mix of views here. What about at home?


Access to abortions should be a human rights. A mix of views there.


It is really encouraging to see people admitting that abortion is a


tragedy, and the right to life. There was a poll carried out a


couple of weeks ago in May, and it showed that our legislation is out


of step with public opinion, and seriously so. 70% of women who were


polled think that the current abortion limit at 24 weeks is too


high. Over 90% of women want to see sex selective abortion illegal. When


parliament voted on it, they said, no, we will keep it as it is, so


technically, someone can abort a baby because it is the wrong sex.


79% of women want to see a mandatory five day consultation period before


a woman has an abortion. I think it was over 76% want to make sure that


two doctors sign off on it to make sure a woman is not coerced. We talk


about safe, legal abortion. Last year, the Care Quality Commission,


who regulates abortion clinics, temporarily shut down a clinic. They


also produced a damning report of a clinic in Merseyside. These are


damning things. This situation is, you can find a poll that shows all


sorts of things. When we put these restrictions on abortion, like the


thing in Northern Ireland and people travelling over every week, what


happens is that women who are wealthy, well educated and have


freedom will travel and get the service they want. These


restrictions put restrictions on poor, working-class women. Thank you


very much for a good debate. That is nearly all from us this week.


Many thanks to all our guests and you at home


But why don't you join Emma for live chat online after the show?


Yes, I'll be talking to Sarah Cruddas about space exploration.


So why don't you boldly go with me to


In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole


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