Episode 2 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 2

Similar Content

Browse content similar to Episode 2. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

On today's programme: In the aftermath of a van driving

:00:08.:00:17.

into Muslims leaving prayers, we ask how can we prevent a rise

:00:18.:00:19.

Also on the programme: Doctors are debating whether the abortion laws

:00:20.:00:32.

are out of date. Should the time limit be extended?

:00:33.:00:35.

And should we invest in the space race to Mars to help save the earth?

:00:36.:00:39.

And Emma Barnett is here as usual to sample your views.

:00:40.:00:41.

We want you to get in touch with your views on our

:00:42.:00:48.

You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter.

:00:49.:00:51.

Don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.

:00:52.:00:53.

Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.

:00:54.:00:55.

Texts are charged at your standard message rate.

:00:56.:00:57.

Email us at [email protected]

:00:58.:00:58.

However you choose to get in touch, please don't forget to include your

:00:59.:01:03.

name so I can get you involved in our heated discussions.

:01:04.:01:05.

My horse, my horse! My kingdom for a horse!

:01:06.:01:16.

Later I meet Mat Fraser, said to be the first

:01:17.:01:19.

Pretty much everything I do I tend to be the first disabled person to

:01:20.:01:27.

do that thing! It is part of the course for my career.

:01:28.:01:37.

This week began with a group of Muslim worshippers leaving

:01:38.:01:39.

prayers for Ramadan and walking straight into a nightmare.

:01:40.:01:42.

One man died and several people were injured after a van ploughed

:01:43.:01:45.

into them outside a mosque in Finsbury Park.

:01:46.:01:49.

Darren Osborne has been charged with terrorism-related murder

:01:50.:01:53.

and attempted murder following the incident.

:01:54.:01:55.

We can't discuss this case in detail because of

:01:56.:01:57.

But after the news about Finsbury Park broke,

:01:58.:02:04.

both extremist Muslims and the far right took to the internet to use it

:02:05.:02:07.

So our first discussion today is how do we stop the rise in hate

:02:08.:02:13.

Joining me here in the studio are Professor Ben Carrington,

:02:14.:02:23.

a sociologist specialising in race, gender and culture,

:02:24.:02:24.

Ruth Dudley-Edwards a journalist and broadcaster, Shaista Aziz

:02:25.:02:27.

Tom Slater is the Deputy Editor of Spiked Online.

:02:28.:02:31.

We have had a string of incidents in the last few months. What kind of

:02:32.:02:45.

atmosphere has that created? Fragile atmosphere where people are

:02:46.:02:47.

frightened and scared and understandably so. It is important

:02:48.:02:51.

how we discuss these issues. There are some narratives that we need to

:02:52.:02:56.

unpack. One is the notion that far right extremism is a new phenomenon

:02:57.:02:58.

that has suddenly emerged in the past weeks or months which is simply

:02:59.:03:03.

not the case. We are not too far away from Soho, the so-called mail

:03:04.:03:07.

bomber, where David Copeland went out and killed three people and

:03:08.:03:12.

injured scores more. He targeted certain areas, the gay area of Soho,

:03:13.:03:19.

bricklaying and Brixton. And Anders Breivik killed dozens of people in

:03:20.:03:27.

Norway. Extremism is not new. Many people deny the existence of

:03:28.:03:30.

Islamophobia. How do we address the context if we deny the framework? On

:03:31.:03:36.

that first point, how did the media report those cases of far right

:03:37.:03:40.

extremism in your opinion? You tend to find in these moments that they

:03:41.:03:45.

are isolated as a lone wolf. Mental health issues are immediately put on

:03:46.:03:50.

the agenda and they don't get to stand in for all white people, as we

:03:51.:03:57.

do with Islamic inspired terrorism. Are you blaming the media? The media

:03:58.:04:00.

has been appalling in these issues. You are a journalist. It is you,

:04:01.:04:05.

your colleagues and your peers. It is your fault. Fortunately I am not

:04:06.:04:09.

a newspaper editor so I don't take the rap for any of it. Would you

:04:10.:04:13.

blame the media? I always blame the media actually for concurring in

:04:14.:04:18.

covering up discussion. I think that has been one of the big problems we

:04:19.:04:21.

have had for the last couple of decades. We have not been honest in

:04:22.:04:27.

conversation. Every time there is an exhibition of Islamic extremism and

:04:28.:04:33.

Islamism, and it has nothing to do with Islam, which politicians say,

:04:34.:04:36.

which is rubbish, because we have got to talk about the truth. We

:04:37.:04:40.

should be emphasising what a terrific country this is and how

:04:41.:04:43.

extraordinarily tolerant it is. I was looking at research on European

:04:44.:04:49.

countries and their attitudes to Muslims and the UK was the least

:04:50.:04:52.

negative of the ten countries I looked at. There were negative

:04:53.:04:55.

responses in Hungary of something like 70% and down to 27% in the UK.

:04:56.:05:01.

It is a great tradition of tolerance and we should applaud it. That is a

:05:02.:05:07.

positive picture. The media, are they reporting terrorism and far

:05:08.:05:12.

right extremism, which many people say is terrorism, fairly? The first

:05:13.:05:16.

thing to point out is context. When some terrorism is described as a

:05:17.:05:20.

lone wolf or crazed individual or whatever, however it is couched, the

:05:21.:05:26.

is missing. The context is that there has been a fivefold increase

:05:27.:05:30.

in reported hate crime in the City of London. Sadiq Khan has said that

:05:31.:05:34.

terrorism is terrorism and he is absolutely right. Posed Manchester

:05:35.:05:37.

there has been a 500% increase in hate crime. We need to make sure

:05:38.:05:41.

that when we are putting on these issues, the context is there. There

:05:42.:05:45.

is a mounting catalogue of reported hate crime taking place in this

:05:46.:05:50.

country. Is that because of the way it is reported? The media is a big

:05:51.:06:00.

term to use that we have got to break that down. There is a lot of

:06:01.:06:02.

inflammatory coverage. A lot of information that is being spun in

:06:03.:06:05.

that way which is definitely feeding into misinformation. Is the

:06:06.:06:09.

inflammatory coverage that some people say is flaring up terrorism

:06:10.:06:13.

and reaction, is that to blame? I don't think so. There is a

:06:14.:06:16.

tremendous double standard in place as Ruth has gestured to. Whenever

:06:17.:06:21.

there is an Islamist attack, people are quick to say, and rightly, that

:06:22.:06:25.

you shouldn't extrapolate to the religion itself. We need to talk

:06:26.:06:28.

about these things carefully and I agree with that. But as soon as

:06:29.:06:31.

there is something that appears to be a far right extremist attack, you

:06:32.:06:42.

don't just hear discussion about extremist publications, you may

:06:43.:06:44.

discussion about the Daily Mail, The Sun, cartoons in broadsheet

:06:45.:06:46.

newspapers showing the van used in this attack with the Daily Mail and

:06:47.:06:49.

The Sun plastered on this. The far right threat is being defined down

:06:50.:06:52.

in many respects and what it expresses is a contempt for white

:06:53.:06:56.

working-class people, who are seen as a pogrom in waiting. We just need

:06:57.:07:01.

one Katie Hopkins column to hop into. That is deeply disturbing.

:07:02.:07:07.

Your response, Ben? I agree that the term the media is just too broad. It

:07:08.:07:13.

is ludicrous to pretend that the Daily Mail and The Sun are defenders

:07:14.:07:16.

of the white working class. Nobody has done more to denigrate them than

:07:17.:07:20.

those publications. It is a slippage between the right and the far right.

:07:21.:07:24.

I don't think there is a far right extremist. If you look at their

:07:25.:07:28.

views, they would say Islam doesn't belong in Europe, and they don't

:07:29.:07:34.

like multiculturalism, issues which are an issue in The Sun and Spiked.

:07:35.:07:40.

Those are blurred. The gap between Spike magazine and many other

:07:41.:07:46.

publications is slipping to the far right? That is ludicrous because we

:07:47.:07:49.

are progressive humanist magazine and we are not right wing hate

:07:50.:07:52.

peddlers by any stretch of imagination. We don't have a

:07:53.:07:55.

particularly pronounced problem with far right extremism in this country

:07:56.:07:58.

so that when people talk that the threat of it they have got to define

:07:59.:08:02.

everything down. Over the past week you heard people like Douglas

:08:03.:08:06.

Murray, someone I disagree with on many counts, but being referred to

:08:07.:08:09.

in the same dress as Andrew Chowdhury. Douglas Murray has not

:08:10.:08:15.

been for expressing support for terrorist groups. This slippage

:08:16.:08:18.

demonstrates something we can take some heart from, which is the story

:08:19.:08:21.

of far right extremism in this country over the past 30 or 40

:08:22.:08:24.

years, which is one of terminal decline. That is not true. It is

:08:25.:08:30.

true. If you go from the 1970s, national front, the BNP, any end we

:08:31.:08:34.

have very sad protest groups like the endless defence league, who

:08:35.:08:38.

yesterday could barely get 50 people out. So what about the hate crimes?

:08:39.:08:44.

Far right extremists are using the internet in the same way as Islamist

:08:45.:08:47.

extremists. They are gathering online, they are connecting with

:08:48.:08:51.

other groups in Europe. It is not true to say that the threat is going

:08:52.:08:57.

down. It is actually going up. If you look at what the security

:08:58.:09:00.

minister said in relation to the attack in Finsbury Park, he said the

:09:01.:09:04.

government is aware of far right groups operating. We cannot deny

:09:05.:09:07.

that this is happening and we cannot say it is going down because it is

:09:08.:09:12.

not. Divided opinion here. What have you got for us?

:09:13.:09:16.

Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of TellMAMA, an organisation

:09:17.:09:19.

Good morning. Have you got evidence that hate crimes have gone up? We

:09:20.:09:28.

have got evidence that there are large spikes and peaks when there

:09:29.:09:32.

are major national and international incidents. The baseline is certainly

:09:33.:09:35.

rising but there are very large peaks and troughs. They are

:09:36.:09:40.

predominately after major Islamist terrorist attacks. So the numbers

:09:41.:09:43.

are up. Where are they up to at the moment and who perpetrate these

:09:44.:09:49.

crimes against Muslims? We have got to make it clear distinction between

:09:50.:09:54.

hate crimes and hate incidents. People can report in because they

:09:55.:09:59.

are targeted because of a characteristic of theirs. Most of

:10:00.:10:03.

them are opportunistic. People see somebody visibly from the Muslim

:10:04.:10:06.

community and they say something. The vast majority of these incidents

:10:07.:10:10.

would be general abuse and thankfully the number of results is

:10:11.:10:19.

small. We see these large numbers of incidents straight after national

:10:20.:10:21.

incidents like terror attacks in our country. Are they up at the moment?

:10:22.:10:26.

They are up at the moment. After Manchester, they were very high and

:10:27.:10:31.

we reported over 530% increase seven days before versus seven days after.

:10:32.:10:35.

After London Bridge again they went up. What we didn't see after the

:10:36.:10:39.

Westminster terrorist attack was any form of Spike and we are looking

:10:40.:10:44.

into that. That is quite unique. Something didn't happen around hate

:10:45.:10:48.

crime after Westminster. What other long-term effects of Islamophobic

:10:49.:10:53.

attacks on the Muslim community in Britain? The long-term impact is it

:10:54.:10:59.

sense of fear, where Muslim women, in particularly visibly Muslim

:11:00.:11:08.

women, they are not going out after dark, they are taking off their

:11:09.:11:13.

headscarves. It is the impact. It is wide at the moment. We have got to

:11:14.:11:17.

put that in perspective. Hate crime when it takes place is general abuse

:11:18.:11:22.

and we have got to put that sense of fear in perspective. Let me also say

:11:23.:11:27.

that there is a general sense where communities start to distrust

:11:28.:11:30.

themselves if these hate crimes happen time after time after major

:11:31.:11:35.

Islamist attacks. That sense of distrust also impact on communities

:11:36.:11:39.

and how they perceive each other. That is very interesting. Thank you.

:11:40.:11:44.

A sense of fear and distrust. How much a social media to blame for

:11:45.:11:48.

that? I think that is one of the interesting things that has been

:11:49.:11:51.

pointed out in relation to this. When hate crimes and hate incidents

:11:52.:11:56.

are reported, I think it is misleading. People assume there has

:11:57.:11:59.

been a 500 fold rise in physical attacks and often what it comes down

:12:00.:12:04.

to is verbal abuse and abuse on social media. All of which is

:12:05.:12:06.

horrendous and should be condemned in the strongest terms, but my

:12:07.:12:17.

concern is that in this discussion it is conflated with violent attacks

:12:18.:12:19.

or nobody takes the effort to differentiate out those parts. If we

:12:20.:12:21.

are talking about people feeling anxious, if you constantly talk up

:12:22.:12:24.

the threat of violence is a phobia and extremism, that will do far more

:12:25.:12:28.

damage to communities and their sense of cohesion than dealing with

:12:29.:12:31.

them properly and talking about them on their sense of scale. It is

:12:32.:12:34.

reckless to talk up the threat as much as people do. There are Muslims

:12:35.:12:38.

who do not feel safe in this country which is not good, whether it is on

:12:39.:12:42.

social media or actual attacks. Part of the reason is what they are being

:12:43.:12:46.

fed by their own communities. It crime as opposed to hate incidents.

:12:47.:12:51.

Somebody shouting abuse is nasty, very bad manners. So is an abusive

:12:52.:12:56.

tweet. Absolutely but it is all over the internet. But if it is targeted

:12:57.:13:01.

at Muslims, it is bad, isn't it? If it is targeted at anybody, it is

:13:02.:13:05.

bad, of course it is. There are lots of very sad people on the internet

:13:06.:13:09.

but we have got to get it in context. I speak as an Irish

:13:10.:13:12.

immigrant and I lived here through all the bombing in the 70s and 80s

:13:13.:13:15.

and I was astounded by the intolerance of the English. If

:13:16.:13:19.

occasionally somebody said something slightly rude about by accent, I

:13:20.:13:25.

didn't report it as a hate crime. We have got to get a sense of

:13:26.:13:28.

perspective. Telling Muslims how welcome they are in this country and

:13:29.:13:31.

telling Muslim is what a tolerant country it is and that they should

:13:32.:13:37.

be proud of it would be a start. You have spent a lot of time in America.

:13:38.:13:40.

Similar tensions there. Can we learn anything from them and what is it

:13:41.:13:45.

like in American society at the moment? We have similar

:13:46.:13:48.

conversations in the USA right now. We have the same patronising

:13:49.:13:52.

discourse towards Muslims, telling them that Islamophobic threats, kids

:13:53.:13:56.

being terrorised at school, being victimised, is just a form of bad

:13:57.:13:59.

manners and Islamophobia doesn't exist. You will find some similar

:14:00.:14:03.

parallels to what is happening in the UK right now. I agree it is

:14:04.:14:07.

important to distinguish between not conflating Islamophobia and the

:14:08.:14:12.

context to broadly, but sometimes the opposite takes place from the

:14:13.:14:16.

right. They define it so narrowly, that only seven explicitly claiming

:14:17.:14:19.

to be attacking someone because they are Muslim and inflicting bodily

:14:20.:14:25.

damage or even death gets to count and everything else just doesn't

:14:26.:14:29.

count, which is a ridiculous standard. Most things that we call

:14:30.:14:33.

forms of persecution and hate just would not qualify. I will come to

:14:34.:14:37.

you in a moment on that but what are people saying at home? People are

:14:38.:14:41.

getting in touch with what we like, solutions. Sarah says: If we want to

:14:42.:14:44.

change division... This is not a very lovely to end on

:14:45.:15:16.

but we do like your comments so keep them coming in.

:15:17.:15:24.

Emma, that will spark a debate. Not all cultures are compatible. The

:15:25.:15:31.

thing is, we cannot dismiss what British people in this country are

:15:32.:15:36.

going through. I spend a lot of time talking to people as a journalist,

:15:37.:15:40.

and I've had lots of women contact me to tell me that they are nervous

:15:41.:15:44.

and scared of going out because they visibly look like Muslims. That's a

:15:45.:15:51.

disgrace. If anyone is suggesting that's not happening, or not

:15:52.:15:53.

happening in the way the police figures show, that's not true. So

:15:54.:16:00.

what is sparking the fear? Lived experiences. I was subjected to a

:16:01.:16:06.

hate crime last week. The police are investigating. I urge anyone who is

:16:07.:16:12.

facing physical or verbal abuse on the streets, racial abuse, to tell

:16:13.:16:16.

the police. I have been to the police twice in the last couple of

:16:17.:16:21.

years. This is not a figment of my imagination. I had someone tried to

:16:22.:16:26.

punch me in my face and verbally abused me in my own home city. This

:16:27.:16:30.

didn't happen before. Something is going on here. We shouldn't talk

:16:31.:16:37.

things up to make people anxious and nervous, but we shouldn't pretend

:16:38.:16:42.

it's not happening either. There is context behind everything. How can

:16:43.:16:46.

we heal the divide in society, Tom? We need to stop treating the public

:16:47.:16:52.

like idiots. That is the thing that is the most striking. In the past

:16:53.:16:59.

two years, 36 people have been killed in terror attacks, one of

:17:00.:17:02.

those by a far right extremists. I think people are still bemused that

:17:03.:17:07.

we are having this discussion about far right extremism in the context

:17:08.:17:12.

we are having. Muslim communities are unable to talk about this,

:17:13.:17:16.

despite the fact we know this is a small problem in that community. The

:17:17.:17:22.

second thing that drives it is that the white working class, the belief

:17:23.:17:25.

that the white working class are some kind of pogrom. It's diverted

:17:26.:17:33.

attention. We could continue this debate for a long time, but we are

:17:34.:17:35.

out of time. We've been exploring how to tackle

:17:36.:17:38.

some of the divisions And one way of doing that is to find

:17:39.:17:41.

out more about each other's customs. Today is the Muslim festival of Ede,

:17:42.:17:53.

which marks the end of Ramadan. And Wendy Robbins went along to a tasty

:17:54.:17:58.

event. Chef Brother Sullivan is cooking today for hundreds of

:17:59.:18:02.

people, but they will not get to eat his curry until later tonight. He

:18:03.:18:09.

will not get to sample it, because it is the holy month of Ramadan,

:18:10.:18:14.

where Muslims do not get to eat between sunrise and sunset. I am

:18:15.:18:19.

fasting as well, and I cannot wait until tonight's iftar. I am so

:18:20.:18:29.

hungry. How can you do this to me! I am with Brother Sullivan. He must be

:18:30.:18:33.

one of the most disciplined men in the UK today. You have been fasting

:18:34.:18:39.

for 12 hours? Seven and a half hours to go. Isn't it difficult to cook

:18:40.:18:44.

this delicious food while you are fasting? I do feel hungry. I am

:18:45.:18:52.

starving. How am I going to manage? Just be patient. I'm not the only

:18:53.:18:56.

one for whom this is a new experience. You are not Muslim. Why

:18:57.:19:01.

are you fasting? I am doing it mainly out of solidarity to my

:19:02.:19:08.

Muslim colleagues. We can try to understand how people feel, but

:19:09.:19:11.

until you experience it, you don't know how hard it can be with not

:19:12.:19:16.

having any fluids or food. It's really hard. Brother Sullivan helps

:19:17.:19:27.

supply the open iftar in Central London, where Muslims and

:19:28.:19:31.

non-Muslims get together to break the fast. What it means to me is

:19:32.:19:38.

family, community and solidarity. During the month of fasting, I get

:19:39.:19:43.

to appreciate it, to know what it means to feel first or hunger. How

:19:44.:19:51.

many people are you getting on a nightly basis now? Around 300 or 350

:19:52.:19:58.

people. That's a lot of people. How'd you describe the mix of

:19:59.:20:06.

people? 60 or 70% are of the Islamic faith, and the rest are not of the

:20:07.:20:11.

Islamic faith or are no faith. What does it mean to you to see people

:20:12.:20:16.

like this? We live in the same community but often we do not engage

:20:17.:20:20.

with each other. It is a good opportunity to engage with others

:20:21.:20:24.

and have a meal with them in the heart of London. The fast is broken

:20:25.:20:28.

by eating the traditional dried dates. Now it is time for the main

:20:29.:20:38.

course, the famous chicken curry. Right, I'm going to try your food.

:20:39.:20:46.

Delicious! I could eat three of these. Have you got any more? Yes, I

:20:47.:20:55.

have! I've felt really welcome, and it's been a really enjoyable

:20:56.:21:01.

evening. Just from talking to people and understanding why anyone has

:21:02.:21:04.

different beliefs from you, understanding that and getting to

:21:05.:21:10.

know that is really important. Like you said, it is peculiar to spirit.

:21:11.:21:14.

You wake up and you enjoy it, and you just enjoy being with people.

:21:15.:21:19.

What were your thoughts after the events of Monday night? Yesterday I

:21:20.:21:25.

had my flatmates, and they were like, we really want to come. I

:21:26.:21:32.

said, I didn't invite you last week. They said, after what happened at

:21:33.:21:35.

Finsbury, we need to start together, and we need to show that we are with

:21:36.:21:41.

you. To see non-Muslim people, it's wonderful, you know? It's not just

:21:42.:21:46.

about Muslims. It's about something peaceful that we are doing together.

:21:47.:21:54.

Some are blaming their Muslim counterparts, and we know it's not

:21:55.:21:57.

everybody. But we are singing from the same hymn sheet. It has been a

:21:58.:22:03.

very long day. How have you found your vast? It was much harder than I

:22:04.:22:08.

thought it would be. I was starving for most of the day and I really

:22:09.:22:12.

wanted water, but I'm actually really glad I'd did it. That first

:22:13.:22:16.

taste of food tonight made it worthwhile!

:22:17.:22:19.

Still to come on Sunday Morning Live: What is the Church of England

:22:20.:22:24.

And we greet the sun on the summer solstice at the rave where drink

:22:25.:22:28.

The government said in the speech this week that it is committed to

:22:29.:22:44.

growing the space industry and build a spaceport. Cosmologist Professor

:22:45.:22:50.

Stephen Hawking has added his voice as well, saying we need to be much

:22:51.:22:54.

more ambitious and set our sights on Mars. Professor Tim Peake's exploits

:22:55.:23:01.

last year reignited interest in all things space. This is the view of

:23:02.:23:07.

planet Earth. But Stephen Hawking said in a speech this week that we

:23:08.:23:12.

should look beyond the space station, and sent a mission to the

:23:13.:23:16.

moon by 2020, with a view to setting up a lunar base, which could take 30

:23:17.:23:21.

years to build. He also says we should send people to Mars by 2025.

:23:22.:23:28.

He acknowledges that there are problems on earth to address, with

:23:29.:23:31.

global warming and climate change, but space travel is essential

:23:32.:23:36.

precisely because our planet is under threat, and he predicted no

:23:37.:23:41.

long-term future for humans on Earth.

:23:42.:23:45.

So is Stephen Hawking right or is space exploration just

:23:46.:23:47.

a vanity project and we'd be better off spending the money for the good

:23:48.:23:51.

Joining us now are Sarah Cruddas, a space journalist, and

:23:52.:23:54.

Andrew Simms, an author and campaigner.

:23:55.:23:55.

Sarah, there are serious misgivings about the amount spent on space

:23:56.:24:02.

science. In times of austerity, is it worthwhile? It is generating

:24:03.:24:09.

income, innovation, jobs and inspiration. Humans are built to go

:24:10.:24:15.

over the hill. We explored the earth and we are now looking towards the

:24:16.:24:21.

space, from this one planet in this one average solar system, which is

:24:22.:24:24.

one of many in the universe. To say that we are not going to explore

:24:25.:24:30.

space is myopic. Secondly, going into space is as much about our own

:24:31.:24:35.

planet, and looking back at Earth. Those images you have from space

:24:36.:24:41.

help us to understand that we need to protect and look after this

:24:42.:24:46.

planet. So it is multifaceted why we need to look after space. Andrew,

:24:47.:24:51.

for everyone pound we put in we get ?10 back. Is it a no-brainer? I am

:24:52.:24:58.

of the generation of Star Wars and Star Trek. It's a beautiful thing

:24:59.:25:03.

and we should study it. In the introduction there it said that the

:25:04.:25:07.

one thing space exploration should have taught us is that we should

:25:08.:25:11.

better look after our own planet. But that is not happening. We need

:25:12.:25:15.

to look after this one before we go and mess any others up. There is

:25:16.:25:20.

irony in the danger. For all the effort we put into finding may be

:25:21.:25:28.

microbial life on another planet, we are having mass extinction events on

:25:29.:25:33.

Earth. The moment we start imagining that there is a possible escape

:25:34.:25:36.

route from here, that we might be able to live somewhere else, I think

:25:37.:25:41.

is wildly impractical. It almost gives us a psychological excuse to

:25:42.:25:47.

not look after the very planet we've already got. Let's find out how

:25:48.:25:53.

practical that is. Emma is speaking to someone about that. We are joined

:25:54.:25:58.

by Dr Helen Fraser, a senior lecturer in astronomy at the open

:25:59.:26:02.

University. Do you agree with Stephen Hawking? He suggests we will

:26:03.:26:05.

eventually get to the point of no return on earth. Do you agree? It is

:26:06.:26:12.

a bit difficult. What we do with our space exploration at the moment is

:26:13.:26:17.

we combine robotic and human exploration. Everyone has been very

:26:18.:26:22.

focused this week on the human exploration element, but the whole

:26:23.:26:24.

point of what the government is trying to say with the spaceport is

:26:25.:26:29.

that we have end to end access to space. Everyone has a mobile phone

:26:30.:26:35.

in our pocket with a GPS system, and that is part of our infrastructure

:26:36.:26:41.

here on earth. But do people do a good enough job of communicating the

:26:42.:26:46.

benefits to people? I am already seeing the comments coming in on

:26:47.:26:50.

social media saying, we are living in austerity, so why should we

:26:51.:26:53.

invest in exploration to another planet? It is really important. We

:26:54.:26:57.

should have some perspective on this. What I like to say is that

:26:58.:27:07.

when you get your tax return, at the bottom you get some kind of pie

:27:08.:27:12.

chart with the grass showing where all your money has gone in paying

:27:13.:27:17.

your taxes. A tiny sliver of that is called other, and a tiny sliver of

:27:18.:27:21.

that is all the money the government, as opposed to industry,

:27:22.:27:26.

is investing into the space industry and space technology and research.

:27:27.:27:31.

The space research, this opportunity to simply go and explore, is a very

:27:32.:27:36.

tiny part. The majority of the money in the space industry is related to

:27:37.:27:42.

looking down at the Earth, disaster relief, trying to get Internet to

:27:43.:27:47.

third World countries, trying to exploit space opportunities and

:27:48.:27:52.

lower Earth orbit for the benefit of mankind on earth. You've done a good

:27:53.:27:57.

job of answering your critics there. Back to the studio. A tiny sliver of

:27:58.:28:03.

money. It's hardly any money. We've got GPS, disaster relief, solar

:28:04.:28:09.

panels, cellphone... Space gives us so much on earth. If it is focused

:28:10.:28:16.

on the things that allow us to better understand ourselves and to

:28:17.:28:20.

better live on planet Earth, that is great. But in the same Queen's

:28:21.:28:24.

Speech that announced this package, there was no action to correct the

:28:25.:28:29.

problem in the way that money going into renewable energy, vital for

:28:30.:28:32.

tackling climate change, there was no action on that. We are a

:28:33.:28:39.

situation where inconsistent policy and withdrawal of funds from

:28:40.:28:43.

renewable energy looks like we are going to see a 95% drop in renewable

:28:44.:28:48.

energy. Let's use it intelligently, but remember that we can look at the

:28:49.:28:53.

stars, dream about them and study them, but let's not be tempted to

:28:54.:28:58.

think we can escape planet Earth. The way we explore space is

:28:59.:29:01.

changing. It used to be about government in it is now about

:29:02.:29:07.

private industry. The guy behind Amazon is looking at moving

:29:08.:29:11.

manufacturing off earth so that we can save planet Earth. It's not

:29:12.:29:16.

about living on Mars, it's about improving our planet and improving

:29:17.:29:21.

the technology we have. It is the technology that comes from space and

:29:22.:29:28.

how we can utilise low Earth orbit for manufacturing, asteroid mining,

:29:29.:29:30.

things that will improve life on Earth. You could think of the Moon

:29:31.:29:38.

landings as being the Columbus moment, and we are now at the

:29:39.:29:42.

Mayflower moment. You have to explore the technology that can

:29:43.:29:46.

improve life on Earth. Not sure if there is life out there on space.

:29:47.:29:52.

The viewers are divided on this. Caroline has said, can we just leave

:29:53.:29:56.

the other planets alone? Thank you for all those comments.

:29:57.:30:33.

Let's talk about the next generation. There could be a little

:30:34.:30:36.

kid watching this it was inspired and goes on to save the earth by

:30:37.:30:40.

working out which planet we could live on. This is really important

:30:41.:30:45.

for future generations. I have got a daughter that I have taken to any

:30:46.:30:48.

number of space exhibits and she is fascinated. We used to watch videos

:30:49.:30:53.

of rockets taking off and the space shuttle. Absolutely. But let's keep

:30:54.:30:57.

focused on the need to work things out where we are now. We are losing

:30:58.:31:01.

the climate in which human civilisation evolved. And with the

:31:02.:31:06.

best technology available, if you want to get a person to the nearest

:31:07.:31:11.

earth like planet, it would take longer than history of civilisation.

:31:12.:31:19.

But technology changes at rates that we can't understand. It extends

:31:20.:31:25.

thousands of years. When we start the industrialisation of space, we

:31:26.:31:28.

start to repeat the same economic model that we made a mess of an

:31:29.:31:33.

earth. Curiosity is the essence of human existence. How can you be a

:31:34.:31:36.

child born in this country inspired by Tim Peake and not be able to work

:31:37.:31:41.

in this country? There is so much more out there. For every star you

:31:42.:31:47.

see in the night sky, there are at least as many more planets. That was

:31:48.:31:48.

more than one word! Thank you. For an actor, playing the lead role

:31:49.:31:54.

in a Shakespearean play can be a real career high,

:31:55.:31:57.

with the villainous That was certainly the case

:31:58.:31:58.

for Mat Fraser who has just finished playing him as part of events

:31:59.:32:05.

to commemorate Hull's year Mat was born with underdeveloped

:32:06.:32:07.

arms after his mother took the drug He's said to be the first disabled

:32:08.:32:11.

actor to play Richard III March on! Let us go if not to have

:32:12.:32:33.

and then hand in hand to hell! Richard III, I just can't get my

:32:34.:32:37.

head around the fact that you're the first disabled actor to take it on.

:32:38.:32:41.

Were you surprised to learn that you would be? On one level I was very

:32:42.:32:46.

surprised, but on another level pretty much every job I do I tend to

:32:47.:32:50.

be the first disabled person who did that thing so it is par for the

:32:51.:32:58.

course of my career. I understand that you found the language of

:32:59.:33:01.

Shakespeare around disability quite liberating. It was the 1500s. The

:33:02.:33:07.

work of the devil. Richard had a lot of self-loathing and it is glorious

:33:08.:33:10.

liberation to be able to play that to the hilt. Said before my time

:33:11.:33:20.

into this world. So unfashionable that dogs bark at me. For those that

:33:21.:33:28.

don't remember the thalidomide scandal, what has your mother told

:33:29.:33:32.

you about when you were born? After I had been born, I was taken away

:33:33.:33:36.

and she waited for two hours and thought something was wrong and then

:33:37.:33:40.

after four she thought the baby was dead. So when I was brought in to

:33:41.:33:44.

have a shocking announcement about my short arms, she was just relieved

:33:45.:33:48.

that I was alive. She loved my face and said it was like looking at the

:33:49.:33:53.

face of an old friend and she immediately felt connection. The

:33:54.:33:59.

rest took care of itself. You started out drumming. I did. My

:34:00.:34:03.

mother had a friend who was a drummer who left his get round my

:34:04.:34:07.

place. Then punk happened, which was very much it doesn't matter who you

:34:08.:34:12.

are and what you are because you can be in a band. All these things

:34:13.:34:15.

conspired at the same time to make me think I could be a drummer. And

:34:16.:34:19.

in 2012 you ended up drumming with a rather famous band. Yes, I did God

:34:20.:34:26.

Put A Smile On Your Face with Coldplay at the Olympic ceremony.

:34:27.:34:32.

And seconds before we went on there was a moment when I looked up and

:34:33.:34:35.

thought there were lots of people. Please don't let me drop my sticks!

:34:36.:34:39.

But then I looked around and saw the band next to me and realised I knew

:34:40.:34:48.

how to do it. How did you get into acting? What was the motivation for

:34:49.:34:52.

that? I English teacher when I was 13. I loved him and he loved me, but

:34:53.:34:56.

when I announced my intention to audition for the school play, and

:34:57.:35:00.

saw his face, I thought he was embarrassed and scared and I

:35:01.:35:04.

wondered why. I thought about it and it dissuaded me from an acting

:35:05.:35:07.

career at that point. Then in 1994 at the Oval house theatre I saw a

:35:08.:35:13.

production about cerebral palsy and the whole audience of non-disabled

:35:14.:35:18.

people were laughing and enjoying themselves and I thought that I was

:35:19.:35:24.

wrong. I have my rights. You are not even American. I have the right to

:35:25.:35:28.

refuse service and I am refusing to serve you. This place is overpriced

:35:29.:35:33.

anyway. Your breakthrough came with the US hit drama American Horror

:35:34.:35:40.

Story. Yes, C Rees four was set in a freak show in 1952 and I played

:35:41.:35:44.

Paul. You haven't sold a single ticket. We only put up the banner

:35:45.:35:48.

half an hour ago. The town hasn't gotten wind of your new act. I read

:35:49.:35:54.

that you came out as disabled. Why did you use that language? I use

:35:55.:35:57.

that phrase because we all understand it from a gay

:35:58.:36:02.

perspective. Up until that point I wasn't comfortable in the company of

:36:03.:36:04.

young kids because they would ask why my arms were like that. I didn't

:36:05.:36:09.

want to talk about it. I went to an audition for judge Dredd, this'll

:36:10.:36:14.

celesta Stallone film, for the job as a mutant and I didn't get the job

:36:15.:36:18.

because I am a mutant. It messed with my head so much that I broke

:36:19.:36:23.

down and I had this hugely emotional moment where I realised I had been

:36:24.:36:28.

living a pretence for a lot of my life and I just couldn't do it any

:36:29.:36:32.

more. I am disabled, deal with it or get out of my life. I was 30. It

:36:33.:36:38.

took a while. On the way through this varied career, do you have a

:36:39.:36:43.

belief system? What gets you through? I'm not religious at all. I

:36:44.:36:47.

am a hard-core atheist but I believe that everything is energy. If all

:36:48.:36:51.

energy is omnipresent, which it is because it is everything, and that

:36:52.:36:55.

is also God, it is where me and my mum, who is a Church of England

:36:56.:37:01.

lady, Canterbury on the nature of existence. This idea that God is

:37:02.:37:07.

energy and energy is God. -- we can agree on the nature of existence.

:37:08.:37:10.

You live in America and you are trying to import a hugely special

:37:11.:37:14.

part of our culture, pantomime. Doing jack and the Beanstalk at my

:37:15.:37:18.

local theatre, the lady will not wait around to be fallen in love

:37:19.:37:22.

with. She will do the rescuing. The whole community will have to chop

:37:23.:37:26.

down the Beanstalk. I want to imbue this sense of community plurality

:37:27.:37:31.

into our version. Do you think below is side of New York is ready for

:37:32.:37:34.

British pantomime? They are not ready because they don't know what

:37:35.:37:38.

they will get but hopefully when they engage, they will get it back.

:37:39.:37:42.

I wish you the best of luck. Thank you.

:37:43.:37:44.

The Church of England is doing some serious soul searching

:37:45.:37:46.

after the conclusions of a damning report this week into

:37:47.:37:49.

The review, An Abuse Of Faith, by Dame Moira Gibb says that senior

:37:50.:37:53.

figures in the Church colluded with a former bishop

:37:54.:37:55.

The case concerns Peter Ball, now 85,

:37:56.:38:00.

who was jailed for 32 months in October 2015 after admitting

:38:01.:38:04.

sex offences against 18 teenagers and young men.

:38:05.:38:06.

The offences were carried out between

:38:07.:38:09.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, says the report makes

:38:10.:38:14.

Martin Bashir, the BBC's religious affairs correspondent,

:38:15.:38:17.

has been looking into this story and joins us now.

:38:18.:38:23.

This report does not make pleasant reading for the church. Even the

:38:24.:38:33.

title, And Abuse Of Faith, is very pointed. It is a devastating

:38:34.:38:37.

critique of the church of the 1990s, which was more concerned about its

:38:38.:38:41.

reputation than it was about the children and their welfare. In fact

:38:42.:38:45.

it goes further. Dame Moira Gibb, the head of social services at

:38:46.:38:51.

Kensington and Chelsea Council, says that the church actually colluded

:38:52.:38:54.

with Peter Ball's predatory behaviour. This is what she said

:38:55.:38:57.

when I spoke to her immediately after publication. Even though it

:38:58.:39:05.

was 25 years ago and our understanding of abuse, particularly

:39:06.:39:10.

of adults then, is different to what it is now, by any standards I think

:39:11.:39:14.

we would have to say that the response is lamentable. Lamentable?

:39:15.:39:20.

Indeed. You used the word colluding. Lamentable. What do they mean by

:39:21.:39:26.

that? When Peter Ball accepted a police caution in 1993 for gross

:39:27.:39:31.

indecency and stepped down as the Bishop of Gloucester, seven

:39:32.:39:34.

individual young men wrote to the Archbishop of Canterbury, then

:39:35.:39:37.

George Carey, at Lambeth Palace. Not one of those letters was passed to

:39:38.:39:42.

the police. In fact George Carey didn't even put Peter Ball's name on

:39:43.:39:47.

something known as the Lambeth list, a Rolodex, catalogue of individuals

:39:48.:39:50.

about whom there were serious questions about their ongoing

:39:51.:39:55.

ministry. The current Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, has

:39:56.:39:59.

actually asked now Lord Carey to stand down from the only position he

:40:00.:40:03.

currently holds, which is honorary assistant Bishop in the diocese of

:40:04.:40:07.

Oxford. How is the church going to stop this kind of thing happening

:40:08.:40:12.

again in the future? Dame Moira Gibb says the church has overhauled all

:40:13.:40:15.

of its practices and there is training for every ordained

:40:16.:40:20.

clergyman or member of the clergy. There are individual officers

:40:21.:40:23.

appointed in every diocese and the church has got to report immediately

:40:24.:40:27.

allegations of abuse to the authorities. The church has also

:40:28.:40:32.

appointed Bishop responsible for the entire Church of England. He is the

:40:33.:40:36.

Bishop of Bath and Wells, Peter Hancock. He also spoke to us after

:40:37.:40:41.

the publication of the report. It is very clear that the church failed.

:40:42.:40:44.

It failed consistently in a number of areas and in a number of ways and

:40:45.:40:49.

therefore it compounded the abuse, the appalling abuse, that Peter Ball

:40:50.:40:53.

and acted upon his victims. It is then that we think of particularly

:40:54.:40:57.

today. Therefore we offer them a wholehearted apology. Do you think

:40:58.:41:02.

the survivors of the abuse will feel vindicated by this? We have spoken

:41:03.:41:06.

to several and they say there are parts of the report that they are

:41:07.:41:08.

pleased with but the fact of the matter is that it has taken 25 years

:41:09.:41:14.

to see any kind of justice. I don't think you will find many survivors

:41:15.:41:17.

or victims of Peter Ball applauding the Church of England for this

:41:18.:41:21.

report today. It is worth pointing out that Lord Carey has apologised

:41:22.:41:22.

to the victims. Thank you. Many of us enjoyed,

:41:23.:41:26.

or in my case endured, Sun worshippers were sweating

:41:27.:41:29.

all over the place. But we're on a downward

:41:30.:41:32.

slope because the days That's because the longest day,

:41:33.:41:34.

the summer solstice, It's always celebrated amidst

:41:35.:41:37.

the beautiful stones at the ancient site of Stonehenge but also

:41:38.:41:44.

at rather more modern places too, It is the middle of the night and I

:41:45.:42:04.

have just arrived for an event at the Shard. I am not sure what to

:42:05.:42:13.

expect but I can't wait to find out. I'm heading for a party, glittering

:42:14.:42:17.

event to mark the summer solstice. We are going up to the 68th floor. I

:42:18.:42:21.

wonder what will be up there. Others are heading to the Shard in London

:42:22.:42:27.

to celebrate the longest day in the UK's highest building, nearly 800

:42:28.:42:34.

feet above the capital. They are gathering for Morning Gloryville,

:42:35.:42:40.

part of the conscious clothing movement. I don't know what that is

:42:41.:42:44.

either but I am hoping that Sam Mayo can enlighten me. I want to look the

:42:45.:42:49.

part. I have got flowers with me but no glitter. Don't worry. I have got

:42:50.:42:55.

glitter! What is Morning Gloryville? It is an immersive conscious

:42:56.:42:58.

experience where we get everyone to raise their way into the day. It is

:42:59.:43:03.

about community, it is about positivity, it is about love, and it

:43:04.:43:08.

is really about inspiring society to start making positive change in the

:43:09.:43:12.

world. Our events are first thing in the morning, from 6:30am, until

:43:13.:43:18.

10:30am usually. What can I expect? We are going to walk into Gong

:43:19.:43:26.

meditation and we are going to get cleansed by lovely sounds. Then we

:43:27.:43:30.

will go into the solstice sun hailing ceremony led by two

:43:31.:43:34.

ceremonial list, and shaming, pagan and an energy priestess. -- a

:43:35.:43:47.

Shaman. We will really be connecting with nature. It is five o'clock and

:43:48.:43:51.

I would normally be in bed but here they are connecting with the biggest

:43:52.:43:54.

moment of the summer solstice, the rising of the sun. Other people hear

:43:55.:43:57.

it seems to be an uplifting experience. Everyone who would like

:43:58.:44:08.

to welcome the angels and guides, please say yes. Yes! Fantastic. I

:44:09.:44:16.

didn't join this bit but everyone else seemed happy to carry on

:44:17.:44:20.

regardless. This is an opportunity to honour the four directions,

:44:21.:44:24.

north, south, east and west and the energies of what they hold. When we

:44:25.:44:30.

do that, it takes us into a sacred space and an understanding that

:44:31.:44:34.

without north, south, east and west, we don't exist. The summer solstice

:44:35.:44:39.

is a marker of time, really. It shows us that every day is

:44:40.:44:44.

different. To appreciate that, everything changes from one day to

:44:45.:44:49.

the next. It is pagan, it is an earthy conscious get-together. The

:44:50.:44:54.

faith is in the heart. Ceremony is over, it is time for the rave to

:44:55.:44:58.

start. Included in the ?45 price tag. But at this party there is

:44:59.:45:08.

strictly no drugs and no alcohol. When you are in a city that is

:45:09.:45:12.

fuelled with many different substances and energies and you are

:45:13.:45:15.

clubbing with lots of types of music, to be able to come to a space

:45:16.:45:21.

that is so clear, you can gain that confidence. You're not taking

:45:22.:45:26.

anything, you are ready in your own spirit, and you can go wow, this is

:45:27.:45:27.

just incredible. I went to the bar for a quick shot

:45:28.:45:40.

of lemon and ginger. Lovely. I think Morning Gloryville is a celebration

:45:41.:45:44.

of diversity. People are all different ages, colours,

:45:45.:45:53.

ethnicities... This morning we had the gong bar opening ceremony. Today

:45:54.:45:58.

has had that extra element. We started in the most amazing way, to

:45:59.:46:02.

greet the summer for the summer solstice. I chose to join the yoga

:46:03.:46:12.

activity. I need to wind down! Doing yoga up The Shard. That is pretty

:46:13.:46:16.

cool. It is hard to believe it is 8am and down below people are

:46:17.:46:20.

heading to work. Then, it's all over. This was probably one of the

:46:21.:46:30.

most eclectic gatherings of people I've ever witnessed. I'm not sure

:46:31.:46:35.

about how much the spiritual aspects of this event counted with the

:46:36.:46:39.

partygoers, but they all seemed positive and energetic, and at least

:46:40.:46:43.

went home without hangovers, after a group hug.

:46:44.:46:47.

Now our final discussion - and it's a controversial one.

:46:48.:46:51.

The British Medical Association will this week be deciding

:46:52.:46:53.

whether to recommend that abortion be decriminalised.

:46:54.:46:55.

The existing time limit is 24 weeks from conception.

:46:56.:47:00.

Even then, two doctors must agree that continuing the pregnancy

:47:01.:47:04.

would be harmful for either the woman or the unborn child.

:47:05.:47:07.

In Northern Ireland, the law is much stricter.

:47:08.:47:09.

Terminations are only permitted if a woman's life is at risk

:47:10.:47:13.

or there is a permanent or serious risk

:47:14.:47:15.

But the BMA conference, which starts today in Bournemouth, will debate

:47:16.:47:21.

whether women should be allowed to terminate their pregnancy right

:47:22.:47:24.

up until the due date, and for any reason.

:47:25.:47:28.

Joining the panel now are Kate Smurthwaite,

:47:29.:47:30.

Caroline Farrow, a Catholic broadcaster and writer,

:47:31.:47:39.

and we are rejoined by the sociologist Ben Carrington and

:47:40.:47:42.

Kate, starting with you. We will get your title right this time! The

:47:43.:47:57.

current law gives the right for someone to choose whether or not to

:47:58.:48:02.

have their baby. Surely 24 weeks is enough time? For the vast majority

:48:03.:48:09.

of women, of course. The vast majority of terminations happened a

:48:10.:48:13.

long time before that. Most people realise they are pregnant and that

:48:14.:48:18.

they don't want the baby very soon. But there is a number of women for

:48:19.:48:23.

whom the problems arise after 24 weeks, like women who are too young

:48:24.:48:28.

to be having periods so they do not realise they can get pregnant. They

:48:29.:48:31.

may not know anything about the facts of life and being abused. They

:48:32.:48:37.

find out they are pregnant at 25 weeks, and what often happens is

:48:38.:48:40.

they are taken out of the UK to another country where the law is

:48:41.:48:44.

different and doesn't have the 24 week limit. This is horrific. These

:48:45.:48:48.

are women who have gone through all sorts of awful things. We're not

:48:49.:48:52.

saying we want to keep having abortions up until the end of the

:48:53.:48:56.

pregnancy term. We are saying that this is a difficult decision, and

:48:57.:49:00.

the decision shouldn't be made by the government or the authorities.

:49:01.:49:04.

It should be made privately between a woman and her doctor having a

:49:05.:49:10.

sensible conversation with all the facts in front of them and deciding

:49:11.:49:14.

what is right for her. Would you set a time limit? That is a conversation

:49:15.:49:19.

between a woman and a doctor. For me, sure, there's a time where I

:49:20.:49:23.

wouldn't feel comfortable with it, but we shouldn't push that to

:49:24.:49:26.

someone else. Should it ever be a crime for a woman to do what she

:49:27.:49:31.

wants to with her body? We have to remember in the case of an abortion

:49:32.:49:35.

with the pregnant woman, the baby is not part of the woman's body, it is

:49:36.:49:40.

separate and independent of the woman. It doesn't even have a

:49:41.:49:45.

parasitic relationship. It's not just a question of what a woman does

:49:46.:49:54.

with her body, but the rights of the unborn child. Every single

:49:55.:49:56.

embryology textbook, undisputed scientific fact is that human life

:49:57.:50:00.

is formed at conception, and what happens after that is a matter of

:50:01.:50:05.

great social and moral public interest. It's not a private matter.

:50:06.:50:11.

Human life is formed at conception, Emma? We are joined by Matthew

:50:12.:50:16.

Piccaver, a GP working in Suffolk. What is the process the getting an

:50:17.:50:21.

abortion in Britain? For the majority of the cases I see, a woman

:50:22.:50:26.

will discover she's pregnant early on, we will have a discussion about

:50:27.:50:35.

what she would like to do with the pregnancy, and then it is a fair

:50:36.:50:38.

amount of paperwork for me, then referred to a clinic at the local

:50:39.:50:44.

hospital, then referred to another doctor for some counselling, and

:50:45.:50:47.

options are discussed from there. Watched you think of the argument

:50:48.:50:51.

that people come in and take those decisions lightly, they haven't

:50:52.:50:55.

thought about what they want? I would struggle to agree with that,

:50:56.:51:00.

because people I meet who are coming in to talk about termination of

:51:01.:51:04.

pregnancy have thought long and hard about it before booking their

:51:05.:51:09.

appointment with me. I would struggle to find a case in my

:51:10.:51:15.

experience of that. It's not everybody, but I would struggle to

:51:16.:51:19.

fight a case where that decision hasn't thoroughly been thought

:51:20.:51:23.

through and discussed by loved ones, friends and family, partners and so

:51:24.:51:27.

on. What do you make of the protesters that stand outside

:51:28.:51:31.

abortion clinics, a site we are seeing more and more in the UK? It

:51:32.:51:37.

is a difficult question. We have the right to discuss our opinions. As a

:51:38.:51:41.

doctor, my job is not to be a barrier to the care of the woman in

:51:42.:51:47.

need. Looking at some of the historical cases in what some people

:51:48.:51:50.

did in the past in order to procure an abortion, I think the harms of

:51:51.:51:58.

having a medical termination can be much less than those caused by home

:51:59.:52:03.

abortions and so on. The horror stories we heard and the death that

:52:04.:52:08.

resulted from that. If the law was changed to allow abortion right up

:52:09.:52:11.

to the due date, or later than we have at the moment, do you think we

:52:12.:52:16.

would see a rise in those abortions? I'm not convinced we would. The

:52:17.:52:23.

number of abortions that occur, 90% occur before 13 weeks. A small

:52:24.:52:28.

proportion occur after that date, for things such as serious deformity

:52:29.:52:37.

to the developing foetus, and also potential significant harms to

:52:38.:52:41.

women. Those are measuring in the hundreds, so a fairly small amount a

:52:42.:52:47.

year. Thank you for telling us what you have seen in your GP surgery.

:52:48.:52:53.

Emma, thank you. Ruth, can you say why people think abortion is

:52:54.:52:59.

acceptable, especially in the early stages? Yes, I can. I hate

:53:00.:53:05.

everything I know about it, but I wouldn't insist that somebody who'd

:53:06.:53:09.

been raped or somebody in terrible trauma shouldn't be allowed to have

:53:10.:53:13.

an abortion. But what I would say is that you should never bought a

:53:14.:53:18.

viable baby. I think that is atrocious. I cannot see the

:53:19.:53:21.

difference between that and straightforward murder. So there is

:53:22.:53:25.

a moral difference between a collection of cells and a foetus?

:53:26.:53:29.

Yes. We are talking about children who are viable being aborted, and

:53:30.:53:35.

that is monstrous. Is it not monstrous to kill of foetuses

:53:36.:53:41.

because they are one gender or another? This comes up every time

:53:42.:53:44.

when we start to talk about abortion, this discussion of rape or

:53:45.:53:49.

incest. We end up having a conversation about the right reasons

:53:50.:53:55.

for abortion,' is. I look at it from a different perspective. What are

:53:56.:54:03.

the right reasons to force a woman to be pregnant against her will? For

:54:04.:54:08.

me, that is a cruel and unusual punishment. I'm somebody who's had a

:54:09.:54:13.

termination, which was overseas in a country with different rules. I

:54:14.:54:16.

didn't know what the rules were when I realised I was pregnant and I

:54:17.:54:21.

didn't want to be. But what ever the law had been, what ever the

:54:22.:54:24.

circumstances where abortion was available, I would have gone in and

:54:25.:54:37.

said, yes, that's me. If they'd said, only if you've been raped, I

:54:38.:54:39.

would have said, yes, I've been raped. I would have lied about my

:54:40.:54:42.

age. There's nothing I wouldn't have lied about. We put restrictions on

:54:43.:54:47.

abortion, but what I hear is, go and lie to your doctor. And that is a

:54:48.:54:52.

bad place. Should the Lord get involved in this, then? Yes.

:54:53.:55:01.

Sometimes we assume that people aren't against abortions. I would

:55:02.:55:06.

assume everyone is against abortion, in the same way we are against heart

:55:07.:55:10.

attacks. But the question is, should the person who is involved have a

:55:11.:55:15.

right to decide what happens? And I think, yes. We are focusing on this

:55:16.:55:21.

24 weeks. The key is to decriminalise abortion in the first

:55:22.:55:26.

place. There are discussions coming from the US that are often around

:55:27.:55:31.

women's health care. In a state like Texas there have been a tremendous

:55:32.:55:36.

attack on women rights and access to abortion. Texas has some of the

:55:37.:55:41.

worst infant mortality rates in the Western world, and that is directly

:55:42.:55:45.

connected to the religious right attack on the right of women to have

:55:46.:55:49.

an abortion. A mix of views here. What about at home?

:55:50.:56:18.

Access to abortions should be a human rights. A mix of views there.

:56:19.:56:27.

It is really encouraging to see people admitting that abortion is a

:56:28.:56:32.

tragedy, and the right to life. There was a poll carried out a

:56:33.:56:37.

couple of weeks ago in May, and it showed that our legislation is out

:56:38.:56:43.

of step with public opinion, and seriously so. 70% of women who were

:56:44.:56:48.

polled think that the current abortion limit at 24 weeks is too

:56:49.:56:55.

high. Over 90% of women want to see sex selective abortion illegal. When

:56:56.:56:59.

parliament voted on it, they said, no, we will keep it as it is, so

:57:00.:57:04.

technically, someone can abort a baby because it is the wrong sex.

:57:05.:57:11.

79% of women want to see a mandatory five day consultation period before

:57:12.:57:17.

a woman has an abortion. I think it was over 76% want to make sure that

:57:18.:57:22.

two doctors sign off on it to make sure a woman is not coerced. We talk

:57:23.:57:29.

about safe, legal abortion. Last year, the Care Quality Commission,

:57:30.:57:32.

who regulates abortion clinics, temporarily shut down a clinic. They

:57:33.:57:41.

also produced a damning report of a clinic in Merseyside. These are

:57:42.:57:47.

damning things. This situation is, you can find a poll that shows all

:57:48.:57:51.

sorts of things. When we put these restrictions on abortion, like the

:57:52.:57:57.

thing in Northern Ireland and people travelling over every week, what

:57:58.:58:01.

happens is that women who are wealthy, well educated and have

:58:02.:58:04.

freedom will travel and get the service they want. These

:58:05.:58:11.

restrictions put restrictions on poor, working-class women. Thank you

:58:12.:58:19.

very much for a good debate. That is nearly all from us this week.

:58:20.:58:23.

Many thanks to all our guests and you at home

:58:24.:58:25.

But why don't you join Emma for live chat online after the show?

:58:26.:58:29.

Yes, I'll be talking to Sarah Cruddas about space exploration.

:58:30.:58:31.

So why don't you boldly go with me to

:58:32.:58:34.

In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole

:58:35.:58:40.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS