Episode 2 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 2

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On today's programme: In the aftermath of a van driving

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into Muslims leaving prayers, we ask how can we prevent a rise

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Also on the programme: Doctors are debating whether the abortion laws

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are out of date. Should the time limit be extended?

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And should we invest in the space race to Mars to help save the earth?

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And Emma Barnett is here as usual to sample your views.

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We want you to get in touch with your views on our

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You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter.

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Don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.

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Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.

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Texts are charged at your standard message rate.

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Email us at [email protected]

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However you choose to get in touch, please don't forget to include your

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name so I can get you involved in our heated discussions.

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My horse, my horse! My kingdom for a horse!

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Later I meet Mat Fraser, said to be the first

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Pretty much everything I do I tend to be the first disabled person to

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do that thing! It is part of the course for my career.

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This week began with a group of Muslim worshippers leaving

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prayers for Ramadan and walking straight into a nightmare.

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One man died and several people were injured after a van ploughed

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into them outside a mosque in Finsbury Park.

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Darren Osborne has been charged with terrorism-related murder

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and attempted murder following the incident.

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We can't discuss this case in detail because of

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But after the news about Finsbury Park broke,

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both extremist Muslims and the far right took to the internet to use it

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So our first discussion today is how do we stop the rise in hate

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Joining me here in the studio are Professor Ben Carrington,

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a sociologist specialising in race, gender and culture,

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Ruth Dudley-Edwards a journalist and broadcaster, Shaista Aziz

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Tom Slater is the Deputy Editor of Spiked Online.

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We have had a string of incidents in the last few months. What kind of

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atmosphere has that created? Fragile atmosphere where people are

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frightened and scared and understandably so. It is important

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how we discuss these issues. There are some narratives that we need to

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unpack. One is the notion that far right extremism is a new phenomenon

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that has suddenly emerged in the past weeks or months which is simply

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not the case. We are not too far away from Soho, the so-called mail

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bomber, where David Copeland went out and killed three people and

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injured scores more. He targeted certain areas, the gay area of Soho,

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bricklaying and Brixton. And Anders Breivik killed dozens of people in

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Norway. Extremism is not new. Many people deny the existence of

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Islamophobia. How do we address the context if we deny the framework? On

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that first point, how did the media report those cases of far right

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extremism in your opinion? You tend to find in these moments that they

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are isolated as a lone wolf. Mental health issues are immediately put on

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the agenda and they don't get to stand in for all white people, as we

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do with Islamic inspired terrorism. Are you blaming the media? The media

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has been appalling in these issues. You are a journalist. It is you,

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your colleagues and your peers. It is your fault. Fortunately I am not

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a newspaper editor so I don't take the rap for any of it. Would you

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blame the media? I always blame the media actually for concurring in

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covering up discussion. I think that has been one of the big problems we

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have had for the last couple of decades. We have not been honest in

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conversation. Every time there is an exhibition of Islamic extremism and

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Islamism, and it has nothing to do with Islam, which politicians say,

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which is rubbish, because we have got to talk about the truth. We

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should be emphasising what a terrific country this is and how

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extraordinarily tolerant it is. I was looking at research on European

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countries and their attitudes to Muslims and the UK was the least

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negative of the ten countries I looked at. There were negative

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responses in Hungary of something like 70% and down to 27% in the UK.

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It is a great tradition of tolerance and we should applaud it. That is a

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positive picture. The media, are they reporting terrorism and far

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right extremism, which many people say is terrorism, fairly? The first

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thing to point out is context. When some terrorism is described as a

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lone wolf or crazed individual or whatever, however it is couched, the

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is missing. The context is that there has been a fivefold increase

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in reported hate crime in the City of London. Sadiq Khan has said that

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terrorism is terrorism and he is absolutely right. Posed Manchester

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there has been a 500% increase in hate crime. We need to make sure

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that when we are putting on these issues, the context is there. There

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is a mounting catalogue of reported hate crime taking place in this

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country. Is that because of the way it is reported? The media is a big

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term to use that we have got to break that down. There is a lot of

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inflammatory coverage. A lot of information that is being spun in

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that way which is definitely feeding into misinformation. Is the

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inflammatory coverage that some people say is flaring up terrorism

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and reaction, is that to blame? I don't think so. There is a

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tremendous double standard in place as Ruth has gestured to. Whenever

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there is an Islamist attack, people are quick to say, and rightly, that

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you shouldn't extrapolate to the religion itself. We need to talk

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about these things carefully and I agree with that. But as soon as

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there is something that appears to be a far right extremist attack, you

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don't just hear discussion about extremist publications, you may

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discussion about the Daily Mail, The Sun, cartoons in broadsheet

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newspapers showing the van used in this attack with the Daily Mail and

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The Sun plastered on this. The far right threat is being defined down

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in many respects and what it expresses is a contempt for white

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working-class people, who are seen as a pogrom in waiting. We just need

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one Katie Hopkins column to hop into. That is deeply disturbing.

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Your response, Ben? I agree that the term the media is just too broad. It

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is ludicrous to pretend that the Daily Mail and The Sun are defenders

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of the white working class. Nobody has done more to denigrate them than

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those publications. It is a slippage between the right and the far right.

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I don't think there is a far right extremist. If you look at their

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views, they would say Islam doesn't belong in Europe, and they don't

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like multiculturalism, issues which are an issue in The Sun and Spiked.

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Those are blurred. The gap between Spike magazine and many other

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publications is slipping to the far right? That is ludicrous because we

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are progressive humanist magazine and we are not right wing hate

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peddlers by any stretch of imagination. We don't have a

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particularly pronounced problem with far right extremism in this country

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so that when people talk that the threat of it they have got to define

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everything down. Over the past week you heard people like Douglas

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Murray, someone I disagree with on many counts, but being referred to

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in the same dress as Andrew Chowdhury. Douglas Murray has not

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been for expressing support for terrorist groups. This slippage

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demonstrates something we can take some heart from, which is the story

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of far right extremism in this country over the past 30 or 40

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years, which is one of terminal decline. That is not true. It is

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true. If you go from the 1970s, national front, the BNP, any end we

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have very sad protest groups like the endless defence league, who

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yesterday could barely get 50 people out. So what about the hate crimes?

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Far right extremists are using the internet in the same way as Islamist

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extremists. They are gathering online, they are connecting with

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other groups in Europe. It is not true to say that the threat is going

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down. It is actually going up. If you look at what the security

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minister said in relation to the attack in Finsbury Park, he said the

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government is aware of far right groups operating. We cannot deny

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that this is happening and we cannot say it is going down because it is

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not. Divided opinion here. What have you got for us?

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Fiyaz Mughal is the founder of TellMAMA, an organisation

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Good morning. Have you got evidence that hate crimes have gone up? We

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have got evidence that there are large spikes and peaks when there

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are major national and international incidents. The baseline is certainly

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rising but there are very large peaks and troughs. They are

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predominately after major Islamist terrorist attacks. So the numbers

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are up. Where are they up to at the moment and who perpetrate these

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crimes against Muslims? We have got to make it clear distinction between

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hate crimes and hate incidents. People can report in because they

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are targeted because of a characteristic of theirs. Most of

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them are opportunistic. People see somebody visibly from the Muslim

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community and they say something. The vast majority of these incidents

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would be general abuse and thankfully the number of results is

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small. We see these large numbers of incidents straight after national

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incidents like terror attacks in our country. Are they up at the moment?

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They are up at the moment. After Manchester, they were very high and

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we reported over 530% increase seven days before versus seven days after.

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After London Bridge again they went up. What we didn't see after the

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Westminster terrorist attack was any form of Spike and we are looking

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into that. That is quite unique. Something didn't happen around hate

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crime after Westminster. What other long-term effects of Islamophobic

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attacks on the Muslim community in Britain? The long-term impact is it

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sense of fear, where Muslim women, in particularly visibly Muslim

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women, they are not going out after dark, they are taking off their

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headscarves. It is the impact. It is wide at the moment. We have got to

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put that in perspective. Hate crime when it takes place is general abuse

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and we have got to put that sense of fear in perspective. Let me also say

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that there is a general sense where communities start to distrust

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themselves if these hate crimes happen time after time after major

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Islamist attacks. That sense of distrust also impact on communities

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and how they perceive each other. That is very interesting. Thank you.

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A sense of fear and distrust. How much a social media to blame for

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that? I think that is one of the interesting things that has been

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pointed out in relation to this. When hate crimes and hate incidents

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are reported, I think it is misleading. People assume there has

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been a 500 fold rise in physical attacks and often what it comes down

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to is verbal abuse and abuse on social media. All of which is

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horrendous and should be condemned in the strongest terms, but my

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concern is that in this discussion it is conflated with violent attacks

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or nobody takes the effort to differentiate out those parts. If we

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are talking about people feeling anxious, if you constantly talk up

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the threat of violence is a phobia and extremism, that will do far more

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damage to communities and their sense of cohesion than dealing with

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them properly and talking about them on their sense of scale. It is

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reckless to talk up the threat as much as people do. There are Muslims

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who do not feel safe in this country which is not good, whether it is on

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social media or actual attacks. Part of the reason is what they are being

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fed by their own communities. It crime as opposed to hate incidents.

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Somebody shouting abuse is nasty, very bad manners. So is an abusive

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tweet. Absolutely but it is all over the internet. But if it is targeted

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at Muslims, it is bad, isn't it? If it is targeted at anybody, it is

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bad, of course it is. There are lots of very sad people on the internet

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but we have got to get it in context. I speak as an Irish

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immigrant and I lived here through all the bombing in the 70s and 80s

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and I was astounded by the intolerance of the English. If

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occasionally somebody said something slightly rude about by accent, I

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didn't report it as a hate crime. We have got to get a sense of

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perspective. Telling Muslims how welcome they are in this country and

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telling Muslim is what a tolerant country it is and that they should

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be proud of it would be a start. You have spent a lot of time in America.

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Similar tensions there. Can we learn anything from them and what is it

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like in American society at the moment? We have similar

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conversations in the USA right now. We have the same patronising

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discourse towards Muslims, telling them that Islamophobic threats, kids

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being terrorised at school, being victimised, is just a form of bad

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manners and Islamophobia doesn't exist. You will find some similar

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parallels to what is happening in the UK right now. I agree it is

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important to distinguish between not conflating Islamophobia and the

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context to broadly, but sometimes the opposite takes place from the

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right. They define it so narrowly, that only seven explicitly claiming

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to be attacking someone because they are Muslim and inflicting bodily

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damage or even death gets to count and everything else just doesn't

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count, which is a ridiculous standard. Most things that we call

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forms of persecution and hate just would not qualify. I will come to

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you in a moment on that but what are people saying at home? People are

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getting in touch with what we like, solutions. Sarah says: If we want to

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change division... This is not a very lovely to end on

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but we do like your comments so keep them coming in.

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Emma, that will spark a debate. Not all cultures are compatible. The

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thing is, we cannot dismiss what British people in this country are

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going through. I spend a lot of time talking to people as a journalist,

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and I've had lots of women contact me to tell me that they are nervous

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and scared of going out because they visibly look like Muslims. That's a

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disgrace. If anyone is suggesting that's not happening, or not

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happening in the way the police figures show, that's not true. So

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what is sparking the fear? Lived experiences. I was subjected to a

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hate crime last week. The police are investigating. I urge anyone who is

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facing physical or verbal abuse on the streets, racial abuse, to tell

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the police. I have been to the police twice in the last couple of

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years. This is not a figment of my imagination. I had someone tried to

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punch me in my face and verbally abused me in my own home city. This

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didn't happen before. Something is going on here. We shouldn't talk

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things up to make people anxious and nervous, but we shouldn't pretend

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it's not happening either. There is context behind everything. How can

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we heal the divide in society, Tom? We need to stop treating the public

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like idiots. That is the thing that is the most striking. In the past

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two years, 36 people have been killed in terror attacks, one of

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those by a far right extremists. I think people are still bemused that

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we are having this discussion about far right extremism in the context

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we are having. Muslim communities are unable to talk about this,

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despite the fact we know this is a small problem in that community. The

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second thing that drives it is that the white working class, the belief

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that the white working class are some kind of pogrom. It's diverted

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attention. We could continue this debate for a long time, but we are

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out of time. We've been exploring how to tackle

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some of the divisions And one way of doing that is to find

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out more about each other's customs. Today is the Muslim festival of Ede,

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which marks the end of Ramadan. And Wendy Robbins went along to a tasty

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event. Chef Brother Sullivan is cooking today for hundreds of

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people, but they will not get to eat his curry until later tonight. He

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will not get to sample it, because it is the holy month of Ramadan,

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where Muslims do not get to eat between sunrise and sunset. I am

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fasting as well, and I cannot wait until tonight's iftar. I am so

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hungry. How can you do this to me! I am with Brother Sullivan. He must be

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one of the most disciplined men in the UK today. You have been fasting

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for 12 hours? Seven and a half hours to go. Isn't it difficult to cook

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this delicious food while you are fasting? I do feel hungry. I am

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starving. How am I going to manage? Just be patient. I'm not the only

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one for whom this is a new experience. You are not Muslim. Why

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are you fasting? I am doing it mainly out of solidarity to my

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Muslim colleagues. We can try to understand how people feel, but

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until you experience it, you don't know how hard it can be with not

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having any fluids or food. It's really hard. Brother Sullivan helps

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supply the open iftar in Central London, where Muslims and

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non-Muslims get together to break the fast. What it means to me is

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family, community and solidarity. During the month of fasting, I get

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to appreciate it, to know what it means to feel first or hunger. How

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many people are you getting on a nightly basis now? Around 300 or 350

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people. That's a lot of people. How'd you describe the mix of

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people? 60 or 70% are of the Islamic faith, and the rest are not of the

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Islamic faith or are no faith. What does it mean to you to see people

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like this? We live in the same community but often we do not engage

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with each other. It is a good opportunity to engage with others

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and have a meal with them in the heart of London. The fast is broken

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by eating the traditional dried dates. Now it is time for the main

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course, the famous chicken curry. Right, I'm going to try your food.

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Delicious! I could eat three of these. Have you got any more? Yes, I

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have! I've felt really welcome, and it's been a really enjoyable

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evening. Just from talking to people and understanding why anyone has

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different beliefs from you, understanding that and getting to

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know that is really important. Like you said, it is peculiar to spirit.

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You wake up and you enjoy it, and you just enjoy being with people.

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What were your thoughts after the events of Monday night? Yesterday I

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had my flatmates, and they were like, we really want to come. I

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said, I didn't invite you last week. They said, after what happened at

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Finsbury, we need to start together, and we need to show that we are with

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you. To see non-Muslim people, it's wonderful, you know? It's not just

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about Muslims. It's about something peaceful that we are doing together.

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Some are blaming their Muslim counterparts, and we know it's not

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everybody. But we are singing from the same hymn sheet. It has been a

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very long day. How have you found your vast? It was much harder than I

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thought it would be. I was starving for most of the day and I really

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wanted water, but I'm actually really glad I'd did it. That first

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taste of food tonight made it worthwhile!

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Still to come on Sunday Morning Live: What is the Church of England

:22:20.:22:24.

And we greet the sun on the summer solstice at the rave where drink

:22:25.:22:28.

The government said in the speech this week that it is committed to

:22:29.:22:44.

growing the space industry and build a spaceport. Cosmologist Professor

:22:45.:22:50.

Stephen Hawking has added his voice as well, saying we need to be much

:22:51.:22:54.

more ambitious and set our sights on Mars. Professor Tim Peake's exploits

:22:55.:23:01.

last year reignited interest in all things space. This is the view of

:23:02.:23:07.

planet Earth. But Stephen Hawking said in a speech this week that we

:23:08.:23:12.

should look beyond the space station, and sent a mission to the

:23:13.:23:16.

moon by 2020, with a view to setting up a lunar base, which could take 30

:23:17.:23:21.

years to build. He also says we should send people to Mars by 2025.

:23:22.:23:28.

He acknowledges that there are problems on earth to address, with

:23:29.:23:31.

global warming and climate change, but space travel is essential

:23:32.:23:36.

precisely because our planet is under threat, and he predicted no

:23:37.:23:41.

long-term future for humans on Earth.

:23:42.:23:45.

So is Stephen Hawking right or is space exploration just

:23:46.:23:47.

a vanity project and we'd be better off spending the money for the good

:23:48.:23:51.

Joining us now are Sarah Cruddas, a space journalist, and

:23:52.:23:54.

Andrew Simms, an author and campaigner.

:23:55.:23:55.

Sarah, there are serious misgivings about the amount spent on space

:23:56.:24:02.

science. In times of austerity, is it worthwhile? It is generating

:24:03.:24:09.

income, innovation, jobs and inspiration. Humans are built to go

:24:10.:24:15.

over the hill. We explored the earth and we are now looking towards the

:24:16.:24:21.

space, from this one planet in this one average solar system, which is

:24:22.:24:24.

one of many in the universe. To say that we are not going to explore

:24:25.:24:30.

space is myopic. Secondly, going into space is as much about our own

:24:31.:24:35.

planet, and looking back at Earth. Those images you have from space

:24:36.:24:41.

help us to understand that we need to protect and look after this

:24:42.:24:46.

planet. So it is multifaceted why we need to look after space. Andrew,

:24:47.:24:51.

for everyone pound we put in we get ?10 back. Is it a no-brainer? I am

:24:52.:24:58.

of the generation of Star Wars and Star Trek. It's a beautiful thing

:24:59.:25:03.

and we should study it. In the introduction there it said that the

:25:04.:25:07.

one thing space exploration should have taught us is that we should

:25:08.:25:11.

better look after our own planet. But that is not happening. We need

:25:12.:25:15.

to look after this one before we go and mess any others up. There is

:25:16.:25:20.

irony in the danger. For all the effort we put into finding may be

:25:21.:25:28.

microbial life on another planet, we are having mass extinction events on

:25:29.:25:33.

Earth. The moment we start imagining that there is a possible escape

:25:34.:25:36.

route from here, that we might be able to live somewhere else, I think

:25:37.:25:41.

is wildly impractical. It almost gives us a psychological excuse to

:25:42.:25:47.

not look after the very planet we've already got. Let's find out how

:25:48.:25:53.

practical that is. Emma is speaking to someone about that. We are joined

:25:54.:25:58.

by Dr Helen Fraser, a senior lecturer in astronomy at the open

:25:59.:26:02.

University. Do you agree with Stephen Hawking? He suggests we will

:26:03.:26:05.

eventually get to the point of no return on earth. Do you agree? It is

:26:06.:26:12.

a bit difficult. What we do with our space exploration at the moment is

:26:13.:26:17.

we combine robotic and human exploration. Everyone has been very

:26:18.:26:22.

focused this week on the human exploration element, but the whole

:26:23.:26:24.

point of what the government is trying to say with the spaceport is

:26:25.:26:29.

that we have end to end access to space. Everyone has a mobile phone

:26:30.:26:35.

in our pocket with a GPS system, and that is part of our infrastructure

:26:36.:26:41.

here on earth. But do people do a good enough job of communicating the

:26:42.:26:46.

benefits to people? I am already seeing the comments coming in on

:26:47.:26:50.

social media saying, we are living in austerity, so why should we

:26:51.:26:53.

invest in exploration to another planet? It is really important. We

:26:54.:26:57.

should have some perspective on this. What I like to say is that

:26:58.:27:07.

when you get your tax return, at the bottom you get some kind of pie

:27:08.:27:12.

chart with the grass showing where all your money has gone in paying

:27:13.:27:17.

your taxes. A tiny sliver of that is called other, and a tiny sliver of

:27:18.:27:21.

that is all the money the government, as opposed to industry,

:27:22.:27:26.

is investing into the space industry and space technology and research.

:27:27.:27:31.

The space research, this opportunity to simply go and explore, is a very

:27:32.:27:36.

tiny part. The majority of the money in the space industry is related to

:27:37.:27:42.

looking down at the Earth, disaster relief, trying to get Internet to

:27:43.:27:47.

third World countries, trying to exploit space opportunities and

:27:48.:27:52.

lower Earth orbit for the benefit of mankind on earth. You've done a good

:27:53.:27:57.

job of answering your critics there. Back to the studio. A tiny sliver of

:27:58.:28:03.

money. It's hardly any money. We've got GPS, disaster relief, solar

:28:04.:28:09.

panels, cellphone... Space gives us so much on earth. If it is focused

:28:10.:28:16.

on the things that allow us to better understand ourselves and to

:28:17.:28:20.

better live on planet Earth, that is great. But in the same Queen's

:28:21.:28:24.

Speech that announced this package, there was no action to correct the

:28:25.:28:29.

problem in the way that money going into renewable energy, vital for

:28:30.:28:32.

tackling climate change, there was no action on that. We are a

:28:33.:28:39.

situation where inconsistent policy and withdrawal of funds from

:28:40.:28:43.

renewable energy looks like we are going to see a 95% drop in renewable

:28:44.:28:48.

energy. Let's use it intelligently, but remember that we can look at the

:28:49.:28:53.

stars, dream about them and study them, but let's not be tempted to

:28:54.:28:58.

think we can escape planet Earth. The way we explore space is

:28:59.:29:01.

changing. It used to be about government in it is now about

:29:02.:29:07.

private industry. The guy behind Amazon is looking at moving

:29:08.:29:11.

manufacturing off earth so that we can save planet Earth. It's not

:29:12.:29:16.

about living on Mars, it's about improving our planet and improving

:29:17.:29:21.

the technology we have. It is the technology that comes from space and

:29:22.:29:28.

how we can utilise low Earth orbit for manufacturing, asteroid mining,

:29:29.:29:30.

things that will improve life on Earth. You could think of the Moon

:29:31.:29:38.

landings as being the Columbus moment, and we are now at the

:29:39.:29:42.

Mayflower moment. You have to explore the technology that can

:29:43.:29:46.

improve life on Earth. Not sure if there is life out there on space.

:29:47.:29:52.

The viewers are divided on this. Caroline has said, can we just leave

:29:53.:29:56.

the other planets alone? Thank you for all those comments.

:29:57.:30:33.

Let's talk about the next generation. There could be a little

:30:34.:30:36.

kid watching this it was inspired and goes on to save the earth by

:30:37.:30:40.

working out which planet we could live on. This is really important

:30:41.:30:45.

for future generations. I have got a daughter that I have taken to any

:30:46.:30:48.

number of space exhibits and she is fascinated. We used to watch videos

:30:49.:30:53.

of rockets taking off and the space shuttle. Absolutely. But let's keep

:30:54.:30:57.

focused on the need to work things out where we are now. We are losing

:30:58.:31:01.

the climate in which human civilisation evolved. And with the

:31:02.:31:06.

best technology available, if you want to get a person to the nearest

:31:07.:31:11.

earth like planet, it would take longer than history of civilisation.

:31:12.:31:19.

But technology changes at rates that we can't understand. It extends

:31:20.:31:25.

thousands of years. When we start the industrialisation of space, we

:31:26.:31:28.

start to repeat the same economic model that we made a mess of an

:31:29.:31:33.

earth. Curiosity is the essence of human existence. How can you be a

:31:34.:31:36.

child born in this country inspired by Tim Peake and not be able to work

:31:37.:31:41.

in this country? There is so much more out there. For every star you

:31:42.:31:47.

see in the night sky, there are at least as many more planets. That was

:31:48.:31:48.

more than one word! Thank you. For an actor, playing the lead role

:31:49.:31:54.

in a Shakespearean play can be a real career high,

:31:55.:31:57.

with the villainous That was certainly the case

:31:58.:31:58.

for Mat Fraser who has just finished playing him as part of events

:31:59.:32:05.

to commemorate Hull's year Mat was born with underdeveloped

:32:06.:32:07.

arms after his mother took the drug He's said to be the first disabled

:32:08.:32:11.

actor to play Richard III March on! Let us go if not to have

:32:12.:32:33.

and then hand in hand to hell! Richard III, I just can't get my

:32:34.:32:37.

head around the fact that you're the first disabled actor to take it on.

:32:38.:32:41.

Were you surprised to learn that you would be? On one level I was very

:32:42.:32:46.

surprised, but on another level pretty much every job I do I tend to

:32:47.:32:50.

be the first disabled person who did that thing so it is par for the

:32:51.:32:58.

course of my career. I understand that you found the language of

:32:59.:33:01.

Shakespeare around disability quite liberating. It was the 1500s. The

:33:02.:33:07.

work of the devil. Richard had a lot of self-loathing and it is glorious

:33:08.:33:10.

liberation to be able to play that to the hilt. Said before my time

:33:11.:33:20.

into this world. So unfashionable that dogs bark at me. For those that

:33:21.:33:28.

don't remember the thalidomide scandal, what has your mother told

:33:29.:33:32.

you about when you were born? After I had been born, I was taken away

:33:33.:33:36.

and she waited for two hours and thought something was wrong and then

:33:37.:33:40.

after four she thought the baby was dead. So when I was brought in to

:33:41.:33:44.

have a shocking announcement about my short arms, she was just relieved

:33:45.:33:48.

that I was alive. She loved my face and said it was like looking at the

:33:49.:33:53.

face of an old friend and she immediately felt connection. The

:33:54.:33:59.

rest took care of itself. You started out drumming. I did. My

:34:00.:34:03.

mother had a friend who was a drummer who left his get round my

:34:04.:34:07.

place. Then punk happened, which was very much it doesn't matter who you

:34:08.:34:12.

are and what you are because you can be in a band. All these things

:34:13.:34:15.

conspired at the same time to make me think I could be a drummer. And

:34:16.:34:19.

in 2012 you ended up drumming with a rather famous band. Yes, I did God

:34:20.:34:26.

Put A Smile On Your Face with Coldplay at the Olympic ceremony.

:34:27.:34:32.

And seconds before we went on there was a moment when I looked up and

:34:33.:34:35.

thought there were lots of people. Please don't let me drop my sticks!

:34:36.:34:39.

But then I looked around and saw the band next to me and realised I knew

:34:40.:34:48.

how to do it. How did you get into acting? What was the motivation for

:34:49.:34:52.

that? I English teacher when I was 13. I loved him and he loved me, but

:34:53.:34:56.

when I announced my intention to audition for the school play, and

:34:57.:35:00.

saw his face, I thought he was embarrassed and scared and I

:35:01.:35:04.

wondered why. I thought about it and it dissuaded me from an acting

:35:05.:35:07.

career at that point. Then in 1994 at the Oval house theatre I saw a

:35:08.:35:13.

production about cerebral palsy and the whole audience of non-disabled

:35:14.:35:18.

people were laughing and enjoying themselves and I thought that I was

:35:19.:35:24.

wrong. I have my rights. You are not even American. I have the right to

:35:25.:35:28.

refuse service and I am refusing to serve you. This place is overpriced

:35:29.:35:33.

anyway. Your breakthrough came with the US hit drama American Horror

:35:34.:35:40.

Story. Yes, C Rees four was set in a freak show in 1952 and I played

:35:41.:35:44.

Paul. You haven't sold a single ticket. We only put up the banner

:35:45.:35:48.

half an hour ago. The town hasn't gotten wind of your new act. I read

:35:49.:35:54.

that you came out as disabled. Why did you use that language? I use

:35:55.:35:57.

that phrase because we all understand it from a gay

:35:58.:36:02.

perspective. Up until that point I wasn't comfortable in the company of

:36:03.:36:04.

young kids because they would ask why my arms were like that. I didn't

:36:05.:36:09.

want to talk about it. I went to an audition for judge Dredd, this'll

:36:10.:36:14.

celesta Stallone film, for the job as a mutant and I didn't get the job

:36:15.:36:18.

because I am a mutant. It messed with my head so much that I broke

:36:19.:36:23.

down and I had this hugely emotional moment where I realised I had been

:36:24.:36:28.

living a pretence for a lot of my life and I just couldn't do it any

:36:29.:36:32.

more. I am disabled, deal with it or get out of my life. I was 30. It

:36:33.:36:38.

took a while. On the way through this varied career, do you have a

:36:39.:36:43.

belief system? What gets you through? I'm not religious at all. I

:36:44.:36:47.

am a hard-core atheist but I believe that everything is energy. If all

:36:48.:36:51.

energy is omnipresent, which it is because it is everything, and that

:36:52.:36:55.

is also God, it is where me and my mum, who is a Church of England

:36:56.:37:01.

lady, Canterbury on the nature of existence. This idea that God is

:37:02.:37:07.

energy and energy is God. -- we can agree on the nature of existence.

:37:08.:37:10.

You live in America and you are trying to import a hugely special

:37:11.:37:14.

part of our culture, pantomime. Doing jack and the Beanstalk at my

:37:15.:37:18.

local theatre, the lady will not wait around to be fallen in love

:37:19.:37:22.

with. She will do the rescuing. The whole community will have to chop

:37:23.:37:26.

down the Beanstalk. I want to imbue this sense of community plurality

:37:27.:37:31.

into our version. Do you think below is side of New York is ready for

:37:32.:37:34.

British pantomime? They are not ready because they don't know what

:37:35.:37:38.

they will get but hopefully when they engage, they will get it back.

:37:39.:37:42.

I wish you the best of luck. Thank you.

:37:43.:37:44.

The Church of England is doing some serious soul searching

:37:45.:37:46.

after the conclusions of a damning report this week into

:37:47.:37:49.

The review, An Abuse Of Faith, by Dame Moira Gibb says that senior

:37:50.:37:53.

figures in the Church colluded with a former bishop

:37:54.:37:55.

The case concerns Peter Ball, now 85,

:37:56.:38:00.

who was jailed for 32 months in October 2015 after admitting

:38:01.:38:04.

sex offences against 18 teenagers and young men.

:38:05.:38:06.

The offences were carried out between

:38:07.:38:09.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, says the report makes

:38:10.:38:14.

Martin Bashir, the BBC's religious affairs correspondent,

:38:15.:38:17.

has been looking into this story and joins us now.

:38:18.:38:23.

This report does not make pleasant reading for the church. Even the

:38:24.:38:33.

title, And Abuse Of Faith, is very pointed. It is a devastating

:38:34.:38:37.

critique of the church of the 1990s, which was more concerned about its

:38:38.:38:41.

reputation than it was about the children and their welfare. In fact

:38:42.:38:45.

it goes further. Dame Moira Gibb, the head of social services at

:38:46.:38:51.

Kensington and Chelsea Council, says that the church actually colluded

:38:52.:38:54.

with Peter Ball's predatory behaviour. This is what she said

:38:55.:38:57.

when I spoke to her immediately after publication. Even though it

:38:58.:39:05.

was 25 years ago and our understanding of abuse, particularly

:39:06.:39:10.

of adults then, is different to what it is now, by any standards I think

:39:11.:39:14.

we would have to say that the response is lamentable. Lamentable?

:39:15.:39:20.

Indeed. You used the word colluding. Lamentable. What do they mean by

:39:21.:39:26.

that? When Peter Ball accepted a police caution in 1993 for gross

:39:27.:39:31.

indecency and stepped down as the Bishop of Gloucester, seven

:39:32.:39:34.

individual young men wrote to the Archbishop of Canterbury, then

:39:35.:39:37.

George Carey, at Lambeth Palace. Not one of those letters was passed to

:39:38.:39:42.

the police. In fact George Carey didn't even put Peter Ball's name on

:39:43.:39:47.

something known as the Lambeth list, a Rolodex, catalogue of individuals

:39:48.:39:50.

about whom there were serious questions about their ongoing

:39:51.:39:55.

ministry. The current Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, has

:39:56.:39:59.

actually asked now Lord Carey to stand down from the only position he

:40:00.:40:03.

currently holds, which is honorary assistant Bishop in the diocese of

:40:04.:40:07.

Oxford. How is the church going to stop this kind of thing happening

:40:08.:40:12.

again in the future? Dame Moira Gibb says the church has overhauled all

:40:13.:40:15.

of its practices and there is training for every ordained

:40:16.:40:20.

clergyman or member of the clergy. There are individual officers

:40:21.:40:23.

appointed in every diocese and the church has got to report immediately

:40:24.:40:27.

allegations of abuse to the authorities. The church has also

:40:28.:40:32.

appointed Bishop responsible for the entire Church of England. He is the

:40:33.:40:36.

Bishop of Bath and Wells, Peter Hancock. He also spoke to us after

:40:37.:40:41.

the publication of the report. It is very clear that the church failed.

:40:42.:40:44.

It failed consistently in a number of areas and in a number of ways and

:40:45.:40:49.

therefore it compounded the abuse, the appalling abuse, that Peter Ball

:40:50.:40:53.

and acted upon his victims. It is then that we think of particularly

:40:54.:40:57.

today. Therefore we offer them a wholehearted apology. Do you think

:40:58.:41:02.

the survivors of the abuse will feel vindicated by this? We have spoken

:41:03.:41:06.

to several and they say there are parts of the report that they are

:41:07.:41:08.

pleased with but the fact of the matter is that it has taken 25 years

:41:09.:41:14.

to see any kind of justice. I don't think you will find many survivors

:41:15.:41:17.

or victims of Peter Ball applauding the Church of England for this

:41:18.:41:21.

report today. It is worth pointing out that Lord Carey has apologised

:41:22.:41:22.

to the victims. Thank you. Many of us enjoyed,

:41:23.:41:26.

or in my case endured, Sun worshippers were sweating

:41:27.:41:29.

all over the place. But we're on a downward

:41:30.:41:32.

slope because the days That's because the longest day,

:41:33.:41:34.

the summer solstice, It's always celebrated amidst

:41:35.:41:37.

the beautiful stones at the ancient site of Stonehenge but also

:41:38.:41:44.

at rather more modern places too, It is the middle of the night and I

:41:45.:42:04.

have just arrived for an event at the Shard. I am not sure what to

:42:05.:42:13.

expect but I can't wait to find out. I'm heading for a party, glittering

:42:14.:42:17.

event to mark the summer solstice. We are going up to the 68th floor. I

:42:18.:42:21.

wonder what will be up there. Others are heading to the Shard in London

:42:22.:42:27.

to celebrate the longest day in the UK's highest building, nearly 800

:42:28.:42:34.

feet above the capital. They are gathering for Morning Gloryville,

:42:35.:42:40.

part of the conscious clothing movement. I don't know what that is

:42:41.:42:44.

either but I am hoping that Sam Mayo can enlighten me. I want to look the

:42:45.:42:49.

part. I have got flowers with me but no glitter. Don't worry. I have got

:42:50.:42:55.

glitter! What is Morning Gloryville? It is an immersive conscious

:42:56.:42:58.

experience where we get everyone to raise their way into the day. It is

:42:59.:43:03.

about community, it is about positivity, it is about love, and it

:43:04.:43:08.

is really about inspiring society to start making positive change in the

:43:09.:43:12.

world. Our events are first thing in the morning, from 6:30am, until

:43:13.:43:18.

10:30am usually. What can I expect? We are going to walk into Gong

:43:19.:43:26.

meditation and we are going to get cleansed by lovely sounds. Then we

:43:27.:43:30.

will go into the solstice sun hailing ceremony led by two

:43:31.:43:34.

ceremonial list, and shaming, pagan and an energy priestess. -- a

:43:35.:43:47.

Shaman. We will really be connecting with nature. It is five o'clock and

:43:48.:43:51.

I would normally be in bed but here they are connecting with the biggest

:43:52.:43:54.

moment of the summer solstice, the rising of the sun. Other people hear

:43:55.:43:57.

it seems to be an uplifting experience. Everyone who would like

:43:58.:44:08.

to welcome the angels and guides, please say yes. Yes! Fantastic. I

:44:09.:44:16.

didn't join this bit but everyone else seemed happy to carry on

:44:17.:44:20.

regardless. This is an opportunity to honour the four directions,

:44:21.:44:24.

north, south, east and west and the energies of what they hold. When we

:44:25.:44:30.

do that, it takes us into a sacred space and an understanding that

:44:31.:44:34.

without north, south, east and west, we don't exist. The summer solstice

:44:35.:44:39.

is a marker of time, really. It shows us that every day is

:44:40.:44:44.

different. To appreciate that, everything changes from one day to

:44:45.:44:49.

the next. It is pagan, it is an earthy conscious get-together. The

:44:50.:44:54.

faith is in the heart. Ceremony is over, it is time for the rave to

:44:55.:44:58.

start. Included in the ?45 price tag. But at this party there is

:44:59.:45:08.

strictly no drugs and no alcohol. When you are in a city that is

:45:09.:45:12.

fuelled with many different substances and energies and you are

:45:13.:45:15.

clubbing with lots of types of music, to be able to come to a space

:45:16.:45:21.

that is so clear, you can gain that confidence. You're not taking

:45:22.:45:26.

anything, you are ready in your own spirit, and you can go wow, this is

:45:27.:45:27.

just incredible. I went to the bar for a quick shot

:45:28.:45:40.

of lemon and ginger. Lovely. I think Morning Gloryville is a celebration

:45:41.:45:44.

of diversity. People are all different ages, colours,

:45:45.:45:53.

ethnicities... This morning we had the gong bar opening ceremony. Today

:45:54.:45:58.

has had that extra element. We started in the most amazing way, to

:45:59.:46:02.

greet the summer for the summer solstice. I chose to join the yoga

:46:03.:46:12.

activity. I need to wind down! Doing yoga up The Shard. That is pretty

:46:13.:46:16.

cool. It is hard to believe it is 8am and down below people are

:46:17.:46:20.

heading to work. Then, it's all over. This was probably one of the

:46:21.:46:30.

most eclectic gatherings of people I've ever witnessed. I'm not sure

:46:31.:46:35.

about how much the spiritual aspects of this event counted with the

:46:36.:46:39.

partygoers, but they all seemed positive and energetic, and at least

:46:40.:46:43.

went home without hangovers, after a group hug.

:46:44.:46:47.

Now our final discussion - and it's a controversial one.

:46:48.:46:51.

The British Medical Association will this week be deciding

:46:52.:46:53.

whether to recommend that abortion be decriminalised.

:46:54.:46:55.

The existing time limit is 24 weeks from conception.

:46:56.:47:00.

Even then, two doctors must agree that continuing the pregnancy

:47:01.:47:04.

would be harmful for either the woman or the unborn child.

:47:05.:47:07.

In Northern Ireland, the law is much stricter.

:47:08.:47:09.

Terminations are only permitted if a woman's life is at risk

:47:10.:47:13.

or there is a permanent or serious risk

:47:14.:47:15.

But the BMA conference, which starts today in Bournemouth, will debate

:47:16.:47:21.

whether women should be allowed to terminate their pregnancy right

:47:22.:47:24.

up until the due date, and for any reason.

:47:25.:47:28.

Joining the panel now are Kate Smurthwaite,

:47:29.:47:30.

Caroline Farrow, a Catholic broadcaster and writer,

:47:31.:47:39.

and we are rejoined by the sociologist Ben Carrington and

:47:40.:47:42.

Kate, starting with you. We will get your title right this time! The

:47:43.:47:57.

current law gives the right for someone to choose whether or not to

:47:58.:48:02.

have their baby. Surely 24 weeks is enough time? For the vast majority

:48:03.:48:09.

of women, of course. The vast majority of terminations happened a

:48:10.:48:13.

long time before that. Most people realise they are pregnant and that

:48:14.:48:18.

they don't want the baby very soon. But there is a number of women for

:48:19.:48:23.

whom the problems arise after 24 weeks, like women who are too young

:48:24.:48:28.

to be having periods so they do not realise they can get pregnant. They

:48:29.:48:31.

may not know anything about the facts of life and being abused. They

:48:32.:48:37.

find out they are pregnant at 25 weeks, and what often happens is

:48:38.:48:40.

they are taken out of the UK to another country where the law is

:48:41.:48:44.

different and doesn't have the 24 week limit. This is horrific. These

:48:45.:48:48.

are women who have gone through all sorts of awful things. We're not

:48:49.:48:52.

saying we want to keep having abortions up until the end of the

:48:53.:48:56.

pregnancy term. We are saying that this is a difficult decision, and

:48:57.:49:00.

the decision shouldn't be made by the government or the authorities.

:49:01.:49:04.

It should be made privately between a woman and her doctor having a

:49:05.:49:10.

sensible conversation with all the facts in front of them and deciding

:49:11.:49:14.

what is right for her. Would you set a time limit? That is a conversation

:49:15.:49:19.

between a woman and a doctor. For me, sure, there's a time where I

:49:20.:49:23.

wouldn't feel comfortable with it, but we shouldn't push that to

:49:24.:49:26.

someone else. Should it ever be a crime for a woman to do what she

:49:27.:49:31.

wants to with her body? We have to remember in the case of an abortion

:49:32.:49:35.

with the pregnant woman, the baby is not part of the woman's body, it is

:49:36.:49:40.

separate and independent of the woman. It doesn't even have a

:49:41.:49:45.

parasitic relationship. It's not just a question of what a woman does

:49:46.:49:54.

with her body, but the rights of the unborn child. Every single

:49:55.:49:56.

embryology textbook, undisputed scientific fact is that human life

:49:57.:50:00.

is formed at conception, and what happens after that is a matter of

:50:01.:50:05.

great social and moral public interest. It's not a private matter.

:50:06.:50:11.

Human life is formed at conception, Emma? We are joined by Matthew

:50:12.:50:16.

Piccaver, a GP working in Suffolk. What is the process the getting an

:50:17.:50:21.

abortion in Britain? For the majority of the cases I see, a woman

:50:22.:50:26.

will discover she's pregnant early on, we will have a discussion about

:50:27.:50:35.

what she would like to do with the pregnancy, and then it is a fair

:50:36.:50:38.

amount of paperwork for me, then referred to a clinic at the local

:50:39.:50:44.

hospital, then referred to another doctor for some counselling, and

:50:45.:50:47.

options are discussed from there. Watched you think of the argument

:50:48.:50:51.

that people come in and take those decisions lightly, they haven't

:50:52.:50:55.

thought about what they want? I would struggle to agree with that,

:50:56.:51:00.

because people I meet who are coming in to talk about termination of

:51:01.:51:04.

pregnancy have thought long and hard about it before booking their

:51:05.:51:09.

appointment with me. I would struggle to find a case in my

:51:10.:51:15.

experience of that. It's not everybody, but I would struggle to

:51:16.:51:19.

fight a case where that decision hasn't thoroughly been thought

:51:20.:51:23.

through and discussed by loved ones, friends and family, partners and so

:51:24.:51:27.

on. What do you make of the protesters that stand outside

:51:28.:51:31.

abortion clinics, a site we are seeing more and more in the UK? It

:51:32.:51:37.

is a difficult question. We have the right to discuss our opinions. As a

:51:38.:51:41.

doctor, my job is not to be a barrier to the care of the woman in

:51:42.:51:47.

need. Looking at some of the historical cases in what some people

:51:48.:51:50.

did in the past in order to procure an abortion, I think the harms of

:51:51.:51:58.

having a medical termination can be much less than those caused by home

:51:59.:52:03.

abortions and so on. The horror stories we heard and the death that

:52:04.:52:08.

resulted from that. If the law was changed to allow abortion right up

:52:09.:52:11.

to the due date, or later than we have at the moment, do you think we

:52:12.:52:16.

would see a rise in those abortions? I'm not convinced we would. The

:52:17.:52:23.

number of abortions that occur, 90% occur before 13 weeks. A small

:52:24.:52:28.

proportion occur after that date, for things such as serious deformity

:52:29.:52:37.

to the developing foetus, and also potential significant harms to

:52:38.:52:41.

women. Those are measuring in the hundreds, so a fairly small amount a

:52:42.:52:47.

year. Thank you for telling us what you have seen in your GP surgery.

:52:48.:52:53.

Emma, thank you. Ruth, can you say why people think abortion is

:52:54.:52:59.

acceptable, especially in the early stages? Yes, I can. I hate

:53:00.:53:05.

everything I know about it, but I wouldn't insist that somebody who'd

:53:06.:53:09.

been raped or somebody in terrible trauma shouldn't be allowed to have

:53:10.:53:13.

an abortion. But what I would say is that you should never bought a

:53:14.:53:18.

viable baby. I think that is atrocious. I cannot see the

:53:19.:53:21.

difference between that and straightforward murder. So there is

:53:22.:53:25.

a moral difference between a collection of cells and a foetus?

:53:26.:53:29.

Yes. We are talking about children who are viable being aborted, and

:53:30.:53:35.

that is monstrous. Is it not monstrous to kill of foetuses

:53:36.:53:41.

because they are one gender or another? This comes up every time

:53:42.:53:44.

when we start to talk about abortion, this discussion of rape or

:53:45.:53:49.

incest. We end up having a conversation about the right reasons

:53:50.:53:55.

for abortion,' is. I look at it from a different perspective. What are

:53:56.:54:03.

the right reasons to force a woman to be pregnant against her will? For

:54:04.:54:08.

me, that is a cruel and unusual punishment. I'm somebody who's had a

:54:09.:54:13.

termination, which was overseas in a country with different rules. I

:54:14.:54:16.

didn't know what the rules were when I realised I was pregnant and I

:54:17.:54:21.

didn't want to be. But what ever the law had been, what ever the

:54:22.:54:24.

circumstances where abortion was available, I would have gone in and

:54:25.:54:37.

said, yes, that's me. If they'd said, only if you've been raped, I

:54:38.:54:39.

would have said, yes, I've been raped. I would have lied about my

:54:40.:54:42.

age. There's nothing I wouldn't have lied about. We put restrictions on

:54:43.:54:47.

abortion, but what I hear is, go and lie to your doctor. And that is a

:54:48.:54:52.

bad place. Should the Lord get involved in this, then? Yes.

:54:53.:55:01.

Sometimes we assume that people aren't against abortions. I would

:55:02.:55:06.

assume everyone is against abortion, in the same way we are against heart

:55:07.:55:10.

attacks. But the question is, should the person who is involved have a

:55:11.:55:15.

right to decide what happens? And I think, yes. We are focusing on this

:55:16.:55:21.

24 weeks. The key is to decriminalise abortion in the first

:55:22.:55:26.

place. There are discussions coming from the US that are often around

:55:27.:55:31.

women's health care. In a state like Texas there have been a tremendous

:55:32.:55:36.

attack on women rights and access to abortion. Texas has some of the

:55:37.:55:41.

worst infant mortality rates in the Western world, and that is directly

:55:42.:55:45.

connected to the religious right attack on the right of women to have

:55:46.:55:49.

an abortion. A mix of views here. What about at home?

:55:50.:56:18.

Access to abortions should be a human rights. A mix of views there.

:56:19.:56:27.

It is really encouraging to see people admitting that abortion is a

:56:28.:56:32.

tragedy, and the right to life. There was a poll carried out a

:56:33.:56:37.

couple of weeks ago in May, and it showed that our legislation is out

:56:38.:56:43.

of step with public opinion, and seriously so. 70% of women who were

:56:44.:56:48.

polled think that the current abortion limit at 24 weeks is too

:56:49.:56:55.

high. Over 90% of women want to see sex selective abortion illegal. When

:56:56.:56:59.

parliament voted on it, they said, no, we will keep it as it is, so

:57:00.:57:04.

technically, someone can abort a baby because it is the wrong sex.

:57:05.:57:11.

79% of women want to see a mandatory five day consultation period before

:57:12.:57:17.

a woman has an abortion. I think it was over 76% want to make sure that

:57:18.:57:22.

two doctors sign off on it to make sure a woman is not coerced. We talk

:57:23.:57:29.

about safe, legal abortion. Last year, the Care Quality Commission,

:57:30.:57:32.

who regulates abortion clinics, temporarily shut down a clinic. They

:57:33.:57:41.

also produced a damning report of a clinic in Merseyside. These are

:57:42.:57:47.

damning things. This situation is, you can find a poll that shows all

:57:48.:57:51.

sorts of things. When we put these restrictions on abortion, like the

:57:52.:57:57.

thing in Northern Ireland and people travelling over every week, what

:57:58.:58:01.

happens is that women who are wealthy, well educated and have

:58:02.:58:04.

freedom will travel and get the service they want. These

:58:05.:58:11.

restrictions put restrictions on poor, working-class women. Thank you

:58:12.:58:19.

very much for a good debate. That is nearly all from us this week.

:58:20.:58:23.

Many thanks to all our guests and you at home

:58:24.:58:25.

But why don't you join Emma for live chat online after the show?

:58:26.:58:29.

Yes, I'll be talking to Sarah Cruddas about space exploration.

:58:30.:58:31.

So why don't you boldly go with me to

:58:32.:58:34.

In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole

:58:35.:58:40.

Sean Fletcher and Emma Barnett are joined by a panel of guests to discuss the week's big talking points. They ask how we should react in the aftermath of terror. Plus is cosmologist Stephen Hawking right in his view that we need to be planning for a future in space?


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