Episode 3 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 3

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As the 2 billionth user signs up to Facebook,

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we'll ask if we could live without social media?

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I think it's good, and a great way for people to keep in contact with

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each other and see what's happening. It's the way the world is going, but

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it's wrong. Tap, tap, tap. It's a sad moment, I think.

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A British Sikh couple have been told they can't adopt a white baby.

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And we talk to drama writer Jimmy McGovern,

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ahead of the climax of the hit drama Broken.

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He reveals the inspiration behind the series.

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It's a thing I've cherished for a long time, this notion of a priest

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at the heart of everything. Police, God, not this time.

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And Emma Barnett is here ready to let you have your say.

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We want you to get in touch with your views on our

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You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter -

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don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.

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Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.

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Texts are charged at your standard message rate.

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Email us at [email protected]

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However you choose to get in touch please don't forget

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to include your name so I can get you involved in our discussions.

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And here's something to get you talking -

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we'll be travelling to the tiny Scottish island of Eigg -

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home of the world's first fully renewably powered electricity grid.

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We don't have any power showers. You're not allowed electric showers

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here! Facebook reached the two billion

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monthly user mark this week and Mark Zuckerberg,

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its CEO, said "the more connected He likened the social media giant

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to a church in its ability Singer Katy Perry recently achieved

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100 million followers on Twitter. And, smartphones and personal

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computers of one form or another dominate many people's lives -

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so much so that now some health experts are suggesting we should

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have regular digital detoxes. But can we live

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without social media? Mehreen Baig who's an addicted

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blogger, has been trying. ALARM SOUNDS. I sleep with my mobile

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phone under my pillow. It's the first thing I check when I wake up

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in the morning. I use it as my alarm clock. And right now I have 12

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messages, five e-mails and a funeral to Vic and is on my Instagram,

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Facebook and Twitter. -- a few notifications. Now today I'm going

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to do a digital detox meaning I can't use my phone today. Meaning my

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precious communications devices go in my safe before heading off. I'm

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in a rush because the producer made me do extra shots, meaning and liked

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to meet my friend. I have no way to contact her so I hope she will still

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be waiting for me. Luckily I find Sophia busy shopping. It's not long

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before, without my phone, I start feeling a bit cut off. Time for a

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coffee and compare notes with severe. What you're doing today is

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amazing. I couldn't do it, and I tried. I turn my phone off and it

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lasts about five or ten minutes. I can't even do an hour. I'm really

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sorry, I'm literally in the middle of a group chat. I feel like I'm

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talking to a brick wall. Sorry! It's fine. I have nothing else

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distracting me. My sole focus is you but you are talking to 100 different

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people at the same time. I think there is a massive problem with

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young people today, including ourselves as young professionals,

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putting pictures up to get likes. It's quite worrying. It doesn't help

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your self-esteem. If you put a picture up and you don't get many

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likes, you feel rubbish. You edit, you look amazing and you put it up.

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You have created a portfolio of how you ideally want to like and you

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almost are comparing yourself to that fake version of yourself. We

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all branding ourselves. We are not brands, we are people. How did you

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find today? It's better than I expected it to be. In the morning I

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felt quite anxious without knowing what's going on in my day. But now I

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am enjoying it. I wish right now we could take a photo our matching

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outfits, but it's more the calling and texting and wondering, has my

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family tried to contact me or worked tried to contact me? I'm feeling

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quite good without it. I'm feeling present and in the moment. Out on

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the streets again and Sophia is taking my detox seriously. Not even

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a selfie allowed. I managed to get on a snap at last

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and Sample some themes. Could you stay 24 hours without your phone?

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No, 100%. Its life. I'm on it probably every five or ten minutes.

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It's addictive. I think social media turns into a habit. I'm using

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Facebook and Instagram, sending pictures in messenger. Kids these

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days, you go out for a meal, sit down, and all they want to do is

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pick up social media. If you couldn't use your phone for 24

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hours, could you do it? I couldn't think so. I use it all the time.

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It's something I need. It's how you contact people and stay connected

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with everyone. Conversation, that's what people are missing out on now.

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It's all this, all the time, tap, tap, tap. I've had a lovely day.

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Thank you so much for waiting for me. See you later. Text me. I can't!

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Mehreen Baig - relieved to be back online.

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And via the magic of technology she joins us now -

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Good morning. Nice to see you back online. What were the benefits of

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being off-line for 24 hours? The best bits were definitely, often we

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don't realise how distracted we are at all times. I didn't really need

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to know what was going on with the rest of the world, what's going on

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in my friends' lives. I could so totally focus on me. That was really

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nice. Were there negatives as well, were you frustrated at times you

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couldn't get in touch with certain people and see the latest news?

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Since I have been old enough to go out by myself I always had a phone

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on me. We're no use at making plans and sticking to them. You wonder how

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people use to meet each other before social media. I genuinely, genuinely

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was going to leave and go home. Apart from not finding your friend,

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would you introduce a digital detox into your life again? Absolutely. I

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think we all need days where we just don't have our phones, our faces

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stuck in a phone and enjoy being in the moment. I think it's good for

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your mental health. Thank you, good to talk to you. Thank you for having

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me. Let's see what our panel think -

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can we live without social media? Vicki Psarias is a vlogger

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and the founder of lifestyle Amina Lone works for an organization

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that aims to give women, young people and working class

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communities a voice. Mark Ellis is a father of four

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and author of "Digitox" - a book about how he tried

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to get his family to You have your own blog, how did it

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start? In 2010, at a time when I had suffered from a traumatic birth with

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my first child. I was TV director before and a good friend of mine,

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when I told her about this brave new world of parenting I found myself

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in, told me to write a blog and talk about these experiences. I was able

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to meet like-minded women I otherwise wouldn't have met. Other

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women who were struggling. You are breast-feeding at 4am and you can

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tweet someone else in the same position. It became my career. It's

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my full-time job and hopefully I am helping lots of other women because

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I'm a voice with integrity and they can trust me. We need that, really,

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and we need more of that. Incredibly important for you personally, but

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wouldn't it have been better to talk to somebody face to face? It was

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actually a catalyst to do so because I felt comfortable. You can feel

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very lonely as a new parent. I was able to then seek help and see a

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therapist to get through that trauma. But it was reading,

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connecting to other women and reading other blogss as well to know

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I wasn't alone. And also share messages about your body. I started

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a campaign called Proud In My Bikini that empowered plenty of other

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women. I posted a picture of myself in my bikini with all my

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stretchmarks on but I still felt good. Other women felt they were

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empowered by that. It transformed lives. A man in the video said it

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helped him stay connected. It's all good, isn't it? There are good

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things, but unfortunately social media is a wild horse with a will of

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its own and we have a belief we can partially control it. A lot of it we

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can't, and a lot of it can be negative. I think it encourages a

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lot of people seeking approval from people they don't know. It

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encourages people to be a little bit dishonest, boastful and

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self-involved about presenting themselves. There is a disconnect

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between reality and the image you present. You also now manipulate

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your own image so you are unhappy with your reality, and you are

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manipulated by people in the background who want more information

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from you. You are encouraged in intellectual laziness. You don't

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think about arguments. And it stunts your emotional life because you sent

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emoticons that as someone else has thought up for you. Sophia was

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worried about how many likes she would get. I do that as well.

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Looking on Twitter I see how many likes I get. It's worrying we base

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our life and self-worth on likes on social media. It's a sign of The

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Times. Social media isn't going to go away. We are in a technological

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age and young children of two or three years old are more savvy than

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any of us here. Is that a good thing? It's not going away. It's

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part of our progression. But is it a good thing? I do think it's a good

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thing. I think social media has brought democracy to the world. You

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can contact people you never have. It's giving women a voice. Women are

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often vilified on social media, but they still have the voice. A lot of

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people I have connected with and work with, I have campaigned with

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women I would never have met or spoken to. Isn't there a danger of

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one big voice saying something and we all follow. We are all courage to

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say the same thing decima we all encouraged to say the same things.

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If you want to wear something you want your friends do like it,

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whether you go to a party or at school. It's an amplification of

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that. There are definitely good and bad things about it, but if you

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harness it in a way that makes it work, then it's a positive overall.

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We had our guinea pig in the video, Mark, most families would use social

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media and the Internet as entertainment. But you pulled the

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plug. We have four children, between seven and 18. I had a dad tantrum

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one morning three years ago. One was watching television in the living

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room, one was on their computer. One had their phone out at the table and

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I just had a meltdown. It wasn't a planned thing. I realised we were

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all addicted, doing your own things and we had lost connectivity as

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family. Too much food is a bad thing, too much connectivity is a

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bad thing. In moderation it's great but it can cause anxiety. Did it

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work? It did. We will ask the family then... I'm joined by your family

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and at a safe distance you can say what you think. Caroline, you are

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the mother, what was it like Weston blew the first weekend was

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horrendous. It was like taking candy from a baby. -- what was it like?

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The first weekend was horrendous. It was a detox. You were 18. What were

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you like? Crying and tantrums. Yes, I was. I was spending a lot of time

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locked away in my bedroom playing computer games and spending time

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with my friends online. I had a really bad response. You suddenly

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had to find your brother may be. You were 15. Did you suddenly see each

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other bit more, how did you feel? I saw the effect more. I played guitar

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more. I went into town Moor with my friends. It was great to stop and

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think without the constant flow of messages and likes. Did your friends

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think it was weird? It does take some adjusting, but you do start to

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look forward to it. It is really good.

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Jessica, new 13, you were ten when this started. What would the

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downsides for you? I liked the metre with my best friend Lily at the

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park. I would normally text her to say would you like to meet up? I

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could not do that because on Sunday, we cannot use our phones. Having a

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sabbath. So really and other things you miss out on? I saw loads of

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things popping up on my phone. It was quite hard not to look for the

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reply. And you did not know if you had to do phone -- home work or not?

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That is a brilliant excuse! Noah, seven years old, we were upset to

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not be able to log onto anything? I found it quite hard because I liked

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playing Pokemon. Now I have got over it. You still seem a little bit

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traumatised! Thank you very much. Sean.

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Thank you. You can always rely on your children to stitch you opt!

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Noah, I could hear the violence, he cannot go on Pokemon. Jessica cannot

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meet up with Lily on Sunday. And Gabriel said his friends think he is

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a little weird. That is a joke, but their friends will be in social

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media. That is true and we take them away at night and sometimes I come

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down and SnapChat is firing after midnight. And they can pick up their

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phone and call their friends which they do. And it is tough, they need

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to learn what we are doing as well and it is infectious, other families

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are doing it now. Facebook only Mark Zuckerberg compared Facebook to a

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Church, 2 million followers, there is a good argument, is it good? It

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is good in moderation. It is good to keep in touch with friends in

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America. It is a Democratic platform, but there is inequality in

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the workforce and a lot of mothers have the same access to reach

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millions of people online is a $1 billion company. When has that

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happened before? I can get my art into the world and create a

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business. It is personally working out for you and I am sure you are

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making a lot of money but comparing it to a religion is a bit worrying.

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That is a bit extreme. We can disrupt the traditional media and

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have different voices, that is very powerful. The thing with Mark

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Zuckerberg. The think the Church or The Mask has in common is the power,

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control of the people, but religion is motivated by people and Facebook

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is motivated by profit. It is worrying and it is not part of a

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religion. It is about moderation and the balance. You create a blog or a

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website, you own that. You can get your message out there. Thankfully,

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we have social media so people can get in touch and Emma is over there.

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We do have social media, and Mark says, I am a pensioner recently

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introduced the social media, I could not live without it now, I would not

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survive a detox. Andy says he no longer feels isolated or alone in

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his suffering. And he says, big plus side of social media. Jonny wrote a

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blog on coming out as a Christian and it went viral and it enabled

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others to get help in the same situation. Ian says if social media

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has done one good thing, it has destroyed the print media is the

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only source of political opinion. Tim says, social media has killed

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human interaction. You get into the minds of your friends and you can

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fall out with them. If we did not have social media, you

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would be reading out letters! It is a good ring. We had an old person

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and other people who would not normally connect to like-minded

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people and they could do. Yes, that is not a bad point, but I've fear we

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will lose the ability to do face-to-face relationships. I am

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tired of the number of times I have been with somebody including my

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daughter, she's looking at her phone and not interacting with me and not

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hearing what I say. People walk around like zombies about to get run

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over, completely unaware. Having relationships in a vacuum is no

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substitute for real relationships and seeing body language and facial

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expression and vocal nuance. That is why some dating shows do not work

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because you cannot see them and have human contact. It needs care and

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mindfulness to understand how it is manipulating you. You need to be in

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charge of it and to use it for good and not let it overwhelm or changes.

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It is a group thing and you become in need of other people's approval

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and you accept arguments like your own, you want people to like you, it

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is dangerous and you have to be aware of that. Mark, people will be

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thinking they want at detox, give us quick points about what they should

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be doing. Do not have phones in the bedroom ever, adults or children, do

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it yourself, do not just expect the children to do it in their own. Have

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time out. A day if possible, but not at first, a couple of hours in the

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evening and spread it out, do not do the whole thing. Scribbling that

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down, good advice. Thank you, everybody.

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The gripping BBC drama 'Broken' reaches its conclusion next week.

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The series centres around a Catholic priest, played by Sean Bean,

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who deals with people's problems, while nursing private

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It's the work of Jimmy McGovern, the celebrated Liverpool writer

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who went on from the Channel 4 soap Brookside to deliver

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thought-provoking work such as Cracker, Hillsborough

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Can I come and see you sometime? Why? Because I think you are in

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pain. No, real pain. I am just skimmed, Father.

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First, Jimmy, thank you for Broken, what an extraordinary piece of work!

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Thank you. It started many years ago, why so long? I tried to

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interview a Catholic priest in Brookside in about 1985, 90 86. --

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90 86. That was a losing battle. A lot of other writers said, what is

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the point of fake? I have cherished for a long time a priest at the

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heart of everything. Take this, all of you, and eat of

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it, for this is my body which will be given up for you.

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I am glad I am doing it now because the Catholic Church puts a lot of

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effort into food banks and work with alcoholics and the destitute and the

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sick. They are more involved with ordinary people than they have ever

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been. You had to persuade Sean Bean but he was always the money wanted

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for this role. Yes. He has got humanity. From the very start, this

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is a man who will be broken. Amen.

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What now? I always had this thing about the title of the show. I

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wanted Broken. Because I always argued that when you break the

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bread, for me, the main reason is to remind you of a broken body in a

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cross. And I think that is one of the fundamentals of Christianity,

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the brokenness of people. I really wanted the man who could do that

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convincingly. Please, God, not this time.

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How has your own faith changed? I have no faith now. I had faked when

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I was about 14. -- faith. I took it seriously. But it just faded away

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and it has never come back. It has left me with a deep fascination

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about faith, especially the Catholic faith. There is drama in there. The

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scenes at the confessionals. The speaking from the heart. The total

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faith in the confidentiality of that moment. So it is the essence of

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drama, all that stuff. You talk about sin. And the evils of the

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modern age, they are not necessarily biblical evils, they are economic.

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That comes across very clearly in Broken. That is a motion that

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informs my drama a lot. You look at a person and you say, there is a

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person of great integrity. Nine times out of ten, that person does

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have great integrity, but he also has money and he can afford to do

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the right thing. When you are skint and you have kids to feed, to hell

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with integrity! You grew up in a big family, working-class family in

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Liverpool. What is it about this city? I don't know. I think it has

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been at its best in this big screw-up -- struggle over

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Hillsborough, almost 30 years. The spirit and camaraderie is amazing.

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It would power anybody's amazing -- imagination what happened with

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Hillsborough. How did you come to be part of that? It was the big

:25:29.:25:32.

defining point of my life. I can analyse it now and it is no

:25:33.:25:37.

coincidence that Hillsborough happened at the end of the 1980s.

:25:38.:25:43.

Because there was this persistent and consistent attack upon

:25:44.:25:48.

working-class institutions and it was always going to end in something

:25:49.:25:54.

like Hillsborough. And when it did end that way, I said, I am strong,

:25:55.:26:01.

to hell with this, I will write truth in future. And so I wrote this

:26:02.:26:11.

episode of Cracker about a man who survived Hillsborough. And

:26:12.:26:17.

identifies what is going on. He is a bright lad. And he decides to act

:26:18.:26:24.

the way he is expected to act. When you hear my accent, he eventually

:26:25.:26:29.

says, you see in your mind's ie a shaven headed fascist with ace

:26:30.:26:33.

banner in his hand, I will be that shaven headed Ashes. The people who

:26:34.:26:40.

died in Hillsborough, they would not want revenge, that is right, but I

:26:41.:26:50.

want it. Right. I want revenge. So you are going to get it? Oh, yes.

:26:51.:26:56.

Hillsborough family is heard about this, of course. And one day on my

:26:57.:27:04.

doorstep was Jenny Hickson, Doreen Jones, Doreen lost her son Richard

:27:05.:27:09.

and Jenny lost two daughters, Vicki and Sarah. They said, we want you to

:27:10.:27:15.

tell our story. I said, I have a bottle of wine in the fridge. We

:27:16.:27:18.

went into the garden and just talked and talked. It was done. You have

:27:19.:27:26.

achieved so much. You have won many awards. Does it get any easier? No,

:27:27.:27:32.

it gets harder. The energy required to keep going, the stamina required.

:27:33.:27:39.

But I am a much better writer than I was. Some of the stuff in Broken is

:27:40.:27:45.

good. It is some of the best I have ever written. I used to say, I have

:27:46.:27:50.

a couple of years until they find me out, and it will take them years to

:27:51.:27:54.

establish the fact I cannot do it. That is the essence of Sean Bean's

:27:55.:28:01.

character in Broken. His heart keeps reminding him of how unworthy he is.

:28:02.:28:08.

And many writers feel that as well. Jimmy Stewart, in its own wonderful

:28:09.:28:12.

life, wondering, what difference did I make? Is that a thought you had?

:28:13.:28:19.

Yes, it you see echoes of that at the end of Broken. It does end in a

:28:20.:28:25.

joyous way and it deserves it! After what you have put us through! It

:28:26.:28:32.

does. Jimmy, it has been an absolute pleasure. Great to talk to you,

:28:33.:28:34.

thank you. And, by the way, that interview

:28:35.:28:36.

was recorded before this week's announcement about prosecutions

:28:37.:28:40.

relating to Hillsborough. The final episode of Broken is

:28:41.:28:41.

on BBC One at 9 o'clock on Tuesday. Still to come on

:28:42.:28:45.

Sunday Morning Live: The barber providing much more

:28:46.:28:46.

than a short back and sides. You really think he saved your life?

:28:47.:28:58.

Yes, definitely, I do think he saved my life.

:28:59.:29:00.

First, the story of a British Sikh couple who claim they were advised

:29:01.:29:03.

not to apply to adopt because of their

:29:04.:29:06.

They say it was because only white children were in need of families.

:29:07.:29:11.

Sandeep and Reena Mander say that Adopt Berkshire told them that white

:29:12.:29:14.

British or European applicants would be given preference.

:29:15.:29:19.

While it is not illegal for adoption agencies to prioritise

:29:20.:29:21.

on the basis of race, the Manders claim they've

:29:22.:29:23.

For us, colour does not mean a single thing. Love doesn't have a

:29:24.:29:37.

colour so why differentiate that and the well-being of that child growing

:29:38.:29:43.

up just down to the fact that I suppose we brown skins? They should

:29:44.:29:47.

be looking at others as people and understanding more about our lives

:29:48.:29:51.

and who we are and not one particular area such as cultural

:29:52.:29:54.

heritage, because that can mean anything.

:29:55.:29:55.

Adopt Berkshire say they don't comment on ongoing cases.

:29:56.:29:57.

But their website says they will seek prospective parents

:29:58.:29:59.

of a similar background to the child, though they would not

:30:00.:30:02.

keep children waiting to "achieve a direct match".

:30:03.:30:04.

But should ethnicity matter at all when it comes to adoption?

:30:05.:30:08.

Joining us now are David Akinsanya, a broadcaster and campaigner for

:30:09.:30:11.

Dr Peter Hayes, who is a Senior Lecturer in Politics

:30:12.:30:16.

And Sally Baffour, who has adopted herself

:30:17.:30:25.

Donna is also back with us. Sally, the key thing is surely loving

:30:26.:30:38.

parents. If love is there then ethnicity doesn't matter. Love is

:30:39.:30:43.

the foundation but ethnicity is very important in a child's life. You

:30:44.:30:48.

have to go through life as the person you are. If you are looking

:30:49.:30:52.

at race, for instance, black and white, people see that first. Peter,

:30:53.:30:58.

does it make sense to give a child to a family where they understand

:30:59.:31:01.

the ethnicity and background and they can give that to the child?

:31:02.:31:06.

There has been a lot of research that has compared children who were

:31:07.:31:13.

the same ethnicity as their adopted parents and those who were adopted

:31:14.:31:21.

by different ethnicities, and there has been no difference whatsoever.

:31:22.:31:28.

We live in a multicultural society with all sorts of races, mixed

:31:29.:31:33.

races, why is it a problem that a child being adopted by parents of a

:31:34.:31:43.

different race? We set up a group in 1986 that called together lots of

:31:44.:31:45.

black children who had been fostered in the care system. A lot of these

:31:46.:31:52.

children felt lost, they didn't have an identity. A lot of them had

:31:53.:31:56.

serious problems. We had one woman who was bleaching her skin and

:31:57.:32:00.

trying to scrub away the black. That is an extreme case but it's

:32:01.:32:04.

important for children to identify. I don't think it's a hard and fast

:32:05.:32:08.

rule because a lot of children in care these days are dual heritage.

:32:09.:32:15.

What we say to the majority of women who bring up dual heritage children

:32:16.:32:18.

are white mothers on their own. If they can do it... Are you saying

:32:19.:32:23.

single white mothers with mixed-race children have a problem? I'm saying

:32:24.:32:29.

a lot of mixed race children are being brought up by their single

:32:30.:32:32.

mothers without any intervention from social services or other

:32:33.:32:36.

people. For some it will be a problem but for many it would be. It

:32:37.:32:40.

is individual as well. Some people have stronger characters and then

:32:41.:32:43.

send up for themselves and fight against of the prejudices that are

:32:44.:32:47.

in society. I didn't feel equipped, having been brought up mainly by

:32:48.:32:52.

white people, to deal with my own internal crises as I became a

:32:53.:32:56.

teenager. I had to find an identity for myself meaning I spent a lot of

:32:57.:33:02.

time in Trinidad or around other black people, to feel confident in

:33:03.:33:09.

society. For me, going to places where I saw black bank managers and

:33:10.:33:12.

headteachers, which you don't necessarily see around this country.

:33:13.:33:18.

It's a very personal thing. Donna, we can't ignore the potential issues

:33:19.:33:22.

of a child being adopted by parents of a different ethnicity. I think

:33:23.:33:27.

the ethnic elements might be an added bonus. To get down to the

:33:28.:33:31.

nitty-gritty, I agree with Sammy, there aren't enough good parents out

:33:32.:33:35.

there for the kids who need them. Kids primarily need to be loved as

:33:36.:33:42.

themselves, to be trusting of the people caring for them. They need

:33:43.:33:49.

time. Ethnicity isn't as crucial as those other factors. And we are all

:33:50.:33:53.

British, we are all trying to fit into one culture here, not divide

:33:54.:33:57.

ourselves and segregate ourselves and say, in this or that ethnic

:33:58.:34:02.

group. It doesn't help us all living together. We are exposed to ethnic

:34:03.:34:07.

groups all around us. You say that but on every job application I have

:34:08.:34:11.

made in the last few years, I'm always asked about my ethnicity. To

:34:12.:34:15.

say ethnicity doesn't matter isn't true. But it's not as crucial for a

:34:16.:34:20.

child who needs a good home and a good set of parents as other

:34:21.:34:27.

factors. Emma? Emma Johnson was adopted at 17 by a white family.

:34:28.:34:32.

Good morning. What were some of the challenges for you growing up? To be

:34:33.:34:37.

honest growing up I didn't really realise I was any different to my

:34:38.:34:43.

family. I was treated in the same way as my brother and sister. It was

:34:44.:34:51.

only when I became a teenager that I wanted to discover my heritage and

:34:52.:34:57.

ethnicity and then I sought advice. You had an issue at school where

:34:58.:35:00.

there weren't any other black children to be friends with. I

:35:01.:35:04.

suspect it may not have caused problems at home but maybe at school

:35:05.:35:10.

you had issues? I think growing up, the environment I grew up, I was the

:35:11.:35:14.

only black person and it wasn't an issue. I had always been to school

:35:15.:35:19.

and being the only black person there. It wasn't an issue until I

:35:20.:35:23.

started going to college. What problems did it oppose them? Do you

:35:24.:35:28.

look at the issue now and think there shouldn't be any role for

:35:29.:35:32.

ethnicity in adoption when you reflect back on your whole

:35:33.:35:35.

experience? At the end of the day what a child needs is stability,

:35:36.:35:41.

safety and a loving home. Preferably it would be easier for a child to

:35:42.:35:45.

grow up in a family that have the same ethnicity as them, but I am

:35:46.:35:51.

living proof that actually if you have those basics in a family, being

:35:52.:35:56.

brought up in a loving environment, that's all that matters at the end

:35:57.:36:00.

of the day. I read in an article you contributed to this week that your

:36:01.:36:03.

mother was getting to grips with how to do your hair. That was the

:36:04.:36:08.

biggest problem we came across! Will my mum didn't know any black people

:36:09.:36:13.

and didn't know what to do with my hair. That was the biggest challenge

:36:14.:36:18.

we came across! If that was the biggest challenge, your hair looks

:36:19.:36:23.

lovely. Really interesting to hear that hair was the biggest problem! I

:36:24.:36:32.

don't think it's simply hair, its hair and skin. Love is the

:36:33.:36:37.

foundation, but ethnicity is absolutely important, because that's

:36:38.:36:41.

all people see. A young child who grows up in a mixed heritage or

:36:42.:36:45.

transracial placement will grow up believing they are white. When they

:36:46.:36:50.

get older and go out into the world... Going to college and

:36:51.:36:55.

getting a political perspective. Them that ethnicity is important,

:36:56.:37:05.

it's absolutely fine. The world says love doesn't have a colour, but

:37:06.:37:09.

loads of people in British society are completely colour-blind. Hate

:37:10.:37:15.

has a collar. I don't deny that. That's what they experience when

:37:16.:37:21.

they go out there. It's about having the self-confidence to understand

:37:22.:37:28.

racism is bad. We just heard from Emma, who is mixed race, was adopted

:37:29.:37:33.

into a white family, and she didn't seem to have any problems until she

:37:34.:37:41.

got to university. It's about feeling an outcast. It's about

:37:42.:37:46.

belonging. Having that sense of belonging. She didn't say that, she

:37:47.:37:52.

seemed to say there wasn't a problem. She's not exclusive. There

:37:53.:37:56.

are many different experiences. If you speak to a majority of them, you

:37:57.:37:59.

find at some point there is a disconnect between who they really

:38:00.:38:07.

feel they are... You are making a problem for mixed-race children. I

:38:08.:38:10.

have mixed-race grandchildren. Black and white. Are you saying they

:38:11.:38:15.

should be confused? The world determines how they see themselves.

:38:16.:38:19.

They see themselves how the world sees them. I disagree. They see

:38:20.:38:23.

themselves how we love them. There are many opinions coming in on

:38:24.:38:34.

this. Nick on Facebook says that as somebody who was adopted its

:38:35.:38:36.

important to match the parents to the child. I had enough issues being

:38:37.:38:41.

brought up with a brother and sister who I love with all my heart but I

:38:42.:38:47.

wasn't related to. Sarah says children need love, guidance and

:38:48.:38:50.

security. Ethnic background shouldn't be an issue. It makes a

:38:51.:38:55.

mockery of inclusion and diversity laws. Helen says that saying parents

:38:56.:38:59.

have to be the same ethnicity of the child is old-fashioned racism. Thank

:39:00.:39:03.

you to all our guests. Now we're off to Devon,

:39:04.:39:06.

for a trip to the hairdressers - or, to be more accurate,

:39:07.:39:09.

the barbers. Not the normal hang-out

:39:10.:39:10.

for our reporter, Wendy Robbins, but in this case, she's not

:39:11.:39:12.

there for a cut and blow dry, Just based on's throw from Torquay

:39:13.:39:27.

seafront is a rather unconventional barber shop run by Tom Chapman. --

:39:28.:39:34.

just a stone's. What's the best thing about being a barber? I love

:39:35.:39:38.

cutting hair, I get to spend a lot of time with my friends and chat and

:39:39.:39:44.

meet new people every day. What kind of conversations go on between the

:39:45.:39:48.

person in the chair and you? People talk about football, sport, perhaps

:39:49.:39:52.

a new girl they have met. I have heard some interesting stories about

:39:53.:39:56.

stag dos and things that I can't repeat on TV! But sometimes the

:39:57.:40:03.

conversation can go into darker areas. Areas which have personally

:40:04.:40:07.

affected Tom. I lost a good friend of mine a couple of years ago now. I

:40:08.:40:12.

saw him in the street, I bumped into him in town and we had a brief

:40:13.:40:16.

conversation about what he had been up to. I don't know if it was

:40:17.:40:20.

because I didn't listen enough or didn't see the signs, but a couple

:40:21.:40:23.

of days later he took his own life and I was unaware he was feeling

:40:24.:40:28.

that way. It's dawned on Tom that as a barber he was in a unique position

:40:29.:40:32.

to spot signs of depression and anxiety in his clients. In that

:40:33.:40:39.

chair there is a level of intimacy and trust. You are in their personal

:40:40.:40:42.

space and they are normally forthcoming with problems and

:40:43.:40:47.

issues. People talk to me about affairs, losing their jobs or

:40:48.:40:51.

relationships, and I have even had people talk to me about their

:40:52.:40:55.

suicide attempts. There is a level of trust, people will open up about

:40:56.:41:00.

everything. Suicide is the UK's biggest killer of men under 45 and

:41:01.:41:06.

Tom has now mobilised a network of barbers, the Lions Barber

:41:07.:41:08.

Collective, to look out for changes in their clients and possible signs

:41:09.:41:15.

of depression. We are hopefully training barbers to recognise, talk

:41:16.:41:20.

and listen for signs of mental health issues and potential suicide

:41:21.:41:24.

and give them the confidence and knowledge to signpost them to

:41:25.:41:29.

existing organisations such as the Samaritans, Calm or Mind, mental

:41:30.:41:33.

professionals who can deal with the problem. Paul is one of Tom's

:41:34.:41:38.

long-standing regulars. Tom helped to make pretty drastic way. I was at

:41:39.:41:44.

a point where I was considering taking my own life. I felt so

:41:45.:41:48.

overwhelmed with everything. I felt so alone. Speaking to him and

:41:49.:41:55.

finding out about the initiative he was setting up made me feel more

:41:56.:41:59.

comfortable and able to ask for help. It made me realise that it's

:42:00.:42:06.

OK to talk about problems. A lot of people have those problems. It

:42:07.:42:12.

helped me get the help I needed. How did it come about you opened up to

:42:13.:42:16.

Tom, you're barber, rather than Doctor? I don't really like going to

:42:17.:42:22.

the doctor. I will not go unless there is something really wrong. I

:42:23.:42:26.

feel like I am wasting their time, like I don't have a serious enough

:42:27.:42:29.

problem, so I don't do it. There are a lot of people in the same

:42:30.:42:36.

situation. It's not Tom furore job to listen or care, but it does, and

:42:37.:42:41.

it has made a huge difference to my life. You really think he saved your

:42:42.:42:48.

life? Yes, I do think he saved my life. As well as training other

:42:49.:42:53.

barbers to potentially save lives, Tom encourages his own clients to

:42:54.:42:56.

help each other through monthly support groups. The Torquay seafront

:42:57.:43:03.

is a favourite meeting point. At one point we had 20 people show up to

:43:04.:43:06.

the walk and it was an incredible feeling to see that. Not just there

:43:07.:43:11.

to help themselves, but help each other. When that happens, 20 people

:43:12.:43:15.

stood outside a restaurant down here when I turned up, I was gobsmacked.

:43:16.:43:23.

I nearly cried. It was incredible. Suicide is the biggest killer of

:43:24.:43:26.

young men in this country. I wonder if you have any views why you think

:43:27.:43:31.

this happens, why men are under such pressure? The social conditioning of

:43:32.:43:42.

men is a huge, huge problem. You are supposed to be strong, dependable.

:43:43.:43:46.

You are not supposed to have these feelings or be weak. But it's not

:43:47.:43:55.

too weak to talk about it. What's it like for you to see support groups

:43:56.:43:59.

like the one you have down here thriving, and men talking to each

:44:00.:44:04.

other? some men are so isolated so to give people the freedom to come

:44:05.:44:09.

out their home and talk to like-minded people is unbelievable.

:44:10.:44:13.

If we can save one person's life it's a game changer. A huge amount

:44:14.:44:17.

of pride for myself and anybody else who helps us. It's fantastic. That

:44:18.:44:22.

report from Wendy Robbins. The tranquil environment

:44:23.:44:24.

of a history gathering in the Wiltshire countryside

:44:25.:44:26.

was disturbed this week by a row about the line-up

:44:27.:44:28.

of people due to speak. Historian Rebecca Rideal pulled out

:44:29.:44:31.

of the Chalke Valley Festival because she was concerned

:44:32.:44:33.

about the limited number of women The festival organisers say

:44:34.:44:36.

that over the years, they've had a number of non-white

:44:37.:44:41.

speakers talking Although this was a minor spat,

:44:42.:44:44.

it raises questions about whether there should be a more

:44:45.:44:49.

inclusive focus on our past. To counter this, Birmingham City

:44:50.:44:53.

University is starting the UK's Kehinde Andrews, a sociologist

:44:54.:44:55.

from Birmingham City University and founder of its new degree course

:44:56.:45:11.

in Black Studies - And Steve Mastin, who's been

:45:12.:45:13.

a history teacher for 17 years and is chairman

:45:14.:45:16.

of the Conservative You helped write the national

:45:17.:45:18.

curriculum for history. No, I do not think I did get it

:45:19.:45:33.

wrong, I think that is quite a personal attack! I thought we would

:45:34.:45:39.

start with the big one! I do not think so, the national curriculum

:45:40.:45:42.

provides a lot of flexibility for teachers in history to teach

:45:43.:45:46.

whatever they want to teach. In a state-run Academy, you have much

:45:47.:45:50.

more flexibility over the curriculum you teach so you can adapt it to

:45:51.:45:56.

what needs you see. Should history not, the curriculum, reflect our

:45:57.:46:01.

broad history and multicultural history? Our broad history is an

:46:02.:46:06.

interesting phrase. I think most parents and most pupils and most

:46:07.:46:12.

people in the India would want a history that is predominantly

:46:13.:46:19.

British. There is world history and European history, but everybody

:46:20.:46:21.

should know about the Norman conquest, others in the first and

:46:22.:46:27.

other things. Yes, surely we need to focus on something, Kehinde we

:46:28.:46:31.

cannot bring in something different for each ethnicity. The bigger

:46:32.:46:36.

problem is British history is the history of Africa and the Caribbean.

:46:37.:46:42.

You do not understand history if you do not understand the impact of the

:46:43.:46:46.

colonies. My uncle and father were born in what we now call Jamaica and

:46:47.:46:53.

they have come to this India and if you do not understand that as

:46:54.:46:55.

British can you do not understand what written is. It is a damning

:46:56.:47:00.

indictment of our so-called education system it does not teach

:47:01.:47:04.

that is history like that. Is it not fair to say that is your perspective

:47:05.:47:08.

and Steve has a different perspective? This is a problem and

:47:09.:47:12.

this is why students at University want to know, why is my curriculum

:47:13.:47:17.

white and why are we not hearing the full history of Britain? It is a

:47:18.:47:23.

very narrow view that misses out not just on what we know, it misses out

:47:24.:47:27.

for the rest of you and how do you understand the world if we do not

:47:28.:47:30.

understand what made Britain Britain? Emma.

:47:31.:47:34.

She's an historian, who has written the book Victoria Abdul,

:47:35.:47:38.

currently being turned into a film starring Judi Dench.

:47:39.:47:43.

I am a 71 billion citizens. Abdul has risen in his own merit. He also

:47:44.:47:54.

was a servant. Now he is my friend. I have not been as happy as this for

:47:55.:47:56.

years. Talking to you about your film with

:47:57.:48:09.

Abdul Karim, a servant who befriended Queen Victoria after the

:48:10.:48:11.

death of her husband Prince Albert. Why is it so important to know about

:48:12.:48:16.

Abdul? It is important to know there was a young Muslim man at the heart

:48:17.:48:21.

of empire. We have talked about empire and British history, it is

:48:22.:48:24.

important to know about these people from the wrong side of the tracks,

:48:25.:48:27.

as it were, who played a role in it. He became The Queen is not closest

:48:28.:48:34.

confidant for 13 years, the last 13 years of his life. And my theory is

:48:35.:48:39.

she had a longer lease of life because of Abdul. He took her to

:48:40.:48:44.

another space. But why is it so important, what impact, broadening

:48:45.:48:52.

history and how it is taught in this India, can it have on young people

:48:53.:48:55.

in society? We need to know about the contribution Indians and Asians

:48:56.:49:00.

and people from the colonies have made to this India. It is important

:49:01.:49:05.

to know Empire is the other countries that made empire. For

:49:06.:49:07.

instance, the First World War, we talk about studying the wars, of

:49:08.:49:15.

course we must know that and 1.5 million Indians contributed to the

:49:16.:49:17.

First World War. They crossed the sea to fight in the trenches and

:49:18.:49:23.

they died in the trenches. In the Second World War, 2.5 million

:49:24.:49:26.

Indians fought for Britain in the Second World War, for King and

:49:27.:49:30.

India. We need to know personal stories. I wrote a bit -- and wrote

:49:31.:49:35.

a book about a secret agent in the Second World War he was dropped

:49:36.:49:39.

behind enemy lines, a young Muslim woman who was killed in a

:49:40.:49:43.

concentration camp. She was awarded the George Cross, one of only three

:49:44.:49:47.

women to get the George Cross, why do we not know these stories? It is

:49:48.:49:52.

very important they get told. They make it inclusive. Our shared

:49:53.:49:57.

history takes us forward. Our shared past is our shared future. The more

:49:58.:50:02.

we understand our shared heritage, the more we understand each other.

:50:03.:50:09.

So something we have discussed a lot, it is multiculturalism and how

:50:10.:50:13.

we understand each other. Shrabani Basu, thank you for an insight into

:50:14.:50:17.

those stories. Sean. I have never heard the story of Victoria and

:50:18.:50:22.

Abdul and it makes me feel we are missing out.

:50:23.:50:27.

With all due respect, I think she is manufacturing sensitivities that do

:50:28.:50:30.

not exist. History teachers will be saying, yes, we teach that 2.5

:50:31.:50:36.

million Indians volunteers, the largest volunteer force ever chose

:50:37.:50:41.

to fight on the side of the Allies. This is manufacturing sensitivity. I

:50:42.:50:45.

agree we should include other types of history. There was a Classics

:50:46.:50:52.

event in London talking about broadening classical education, so

:50:53.:50:57.

the ancient Greeks, the Romans, it is that white history? Of course

:50:58.:51:01.

not, it is human history. I identify with them not because they are a

:51:02.:51:05.

similar colour, because they are human. We in danger of manufacturing

:51:06.:51:11.

history? No, you have the option but often it is not done at school level

:51:12.:51:15.

and university level. It is changing the core of how we understand things

:51:16.:51:21.

and that is why we we started Black Studies to shift the focus and to

:51:22.:51:24.

look differently at the world and you have a different kind of

:51:25.:51:27.

education which does not alienate children. I went to 20 years at

:51:28.:51:32.

school never learning anything about anybody that was not white, that is

:51:33.:51:36.

a damning indictment and still happens. We have to change the key

:51:37.:51:41.

core of our curriculum and that is not being done. We're out of time,

:51:42.:51:46.

but a very good debate, and you are shaking your head! Thank you very

:51:47.:51:47.

much. Now to the tiny Scottish

:51:48.:51:50.

island which has created Twenty years ago, ?1.5 million

:51:51.:51:52.

was raised so that the residents could buy Isle of Eigg

:51:53.:51:56.

from its private owners - becoming the first island

:51:57.:51:59.

in Scottish history to be bought Central to island life is the idea

:52:00.:52:01.

of self-sufficiency, with the islanders living off

:52:02.:52:11.

the land and reliant We sent city-dweller

:52:12.:52:13.

Samanthi Flanagan to get Zipping along in a small boat by the

:52:14.:52:31.

Scottish coast is far from a city dwelling comfort zone but I am going

:52:32.:52:34.

to a place where getting back to nature and living a sustainable

:52:35.:52:37.

existence is more than a romantic motion, it is a way of life.

:52:38.:52:44.

Covering just 12 square miles, the Isle of Eigg is an Area of

:52:45.:52:49.

Outstanding Natural Beauty. Maggie Fife helped spearhead a quiet

:52:50.:52:51.

revolution which is transforming this island. Maggie, hello! Hello.

:52:52.:52:58.

What a welcome, lovely to meet you. Lovely to meet you. I queue for

:52:59.:53:04.

having me. Your own piece of paradise! Incredible. In a good day,

:53:05.:53:08.

yes. The Sun is out, we have struck gold! This is just spectacular. This

:53:09.:53:16.

vantage point. A really great spot to put up your solar panels. Yes,

:53:17.:53:21.

they need to be in a good position to catch maximum sunlight. Enough to

:53:22.:53:29.

have a shower and put the telly on? We do not have any power showers,

:53:30.:53:32.

you are not allowed electric showers here! With the help of specialists,

:53:33.:53:38.

locals have harnessed all three renewable energies, wind and rain

:53:39.:53:43.

and solar to create their own power grid. A world first. To produce our

:53:44.:53:48.

electric from these technologies is quite special. People are incredibly

:53:49.:53:54.

proud of it. It is a really good team that looks after the system.

:53:55.:53:58.

When we first put on the turbines, we maybe had to get a specialist to

:53:59.:54:03.

take them down and maintain them. But the maintenance team were there

:54:04.:54:06.

for that and they have learned how to do it so they can do it

:54:07.:54:09.

themselves. Does that extends to other aspects of island life, that

:54:10.:54:13.

in happens have to have multiple jobs? We do not have an electrician

:54:14.:54:18.

or a mechanic, we do not have a lot of different things here. So people

:54:19.:54:22.

have to do most things for themselves. People have learned over

:54:23.:54:26.

the years to do all manner of things. Eigg's renewable energy

:54:27.:54:33.

revolution has fuelled the rise of new inhabitants, drawn by its

:54:34.:54:39.

independent spirit and wild beauty. Celia settled on the island four

:54:40.:54:47.

years ago. So how many sheep to have? I have 25. What was it like

:54:48.:54:53.

when you first have to look after she and grow your own food and

:54:54.:54:58.

sustain your own food chain? I was not very successful! That is how it

:54:59.:55:04.

started. It just took a while to learn how to keep them healthy. It

:55:05.:55:11.

was talking to the other sheep farmers but I learned how to keep

:55:12.:55:15.

them healthy. I have had the sheep for three years and now I would say

:55:16.:55:20.

they are doing really well. I think I am a natural! O! And this is hot

:55:21.:55:31.

lips. She is so beautiful. You are obviously still learning. This is a

:55:32.:55:35.

big new part of your life. How has it changed due to have these skills,

:55:36.:55:40.

to be so close to nature? It has given me a lot of confidence, I

:55:41.:55:46.

suppose, learning a new skill. A sense of belonging and being a

:55:47.:55:49.

caretaker, to be part of the land and to realise how easy it is to

:55:50.:55:58.

trash it. And yet how much it gives you if you learn from it.

:55:59.:55:59.

It is amazing. The next couple I will meet have not

:56:00.:56:09.

been on the island very long, but they have made quite a splash! After

:56:10.:56:14.

falling in love with the island, newcomers Owen and Lorraine moved

:56:15.:56:18.

here two years ago. They now provide kayaks and camping pods to the

:56:19.:56:24.

growing influx of tourists in Eigg. What a lovely afternoon to me

:56:25.:56:31.

messing about in a kayak off the coast of Eigg. Yes, beautiful

:56:32.:56:35.

evening and great day. What is the difference between your life in

:56:36.:56:40.

Shropshire and Eigg? The pace of life, we did not give enough time to

:56:41.:56:45.

do the things which are important to us, spending time with the community

:56:46.:56:50.

and paddling. Eigg is a wonderful place. It has extended a warm on the

:56:51.:56:55.

bus and we were made to feel as welcome as if we were from Scotland

:56:56.:56:59.

or anywhere in the world and that is quite a special thing. What impact

:57:00.:57:05.

has the renewable energy and Eigg had in your life? It has made me

:57:06.:57:09.

think a lot more about how I have wasted energy in the past and now I

:57:10.:57:12.

think a lot more carefully about what I use and do I need to use it?

:57:13.:57:16.

My personal energy footprint is probably far less than it was on the

:57:17.:57:19.

mainland. It gives you a warm feeling of an evening when it has

:57:20.:57:25.

all been generated in the irons through wind and water. -- on the

:57:26.:57:33.

island. I'm not quite ready to move to Eigg, I think I would miss my

:57:34.:57:38.

home comforts. This is undoubtedly a special place, the people here have

:57:39.:57:41.

been empowered by the choices they have made. It is a wonderful

:57:42.:57:47.

tight-knit community, in an extraordinary setting. I certainly

:57:48.:57:50.

can understand why the islanders would not imagine living anywhere

:57:51.:57:51.

else. Samanthi Flanagan

:57:52.:57:52.

enjoying the good life. That's nearly all

:57:53.:57:54.

from us for this week. Many thanks to all our

:57:55.:57:55.

guests and you at home But why don't you join Emma for live

:57:56.:57:58.

chat online after the show? Yes, please do, so many getting in

:57:59.:58:03.

touch. Yes, I'll be taking Mark Ellis out

:58:04.:58:05.

of his comfort zone, and back into the world of social

:58:06.:58:08.

media, to find out more In the meantime, from everyone

:58:09.:58:11.

here in the studio and the whole

:58:12.:58:24.

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