Episode 3 Sunday Morning Live

As the 2 billionth user signs up to Facebook,

we'll ask if we could live without social media?

I think it's good, and a great way for people to keep in contact with

each other and see what's happening. It's the way the world is going, but

it's wrong. Tap, tap, tap. It's a sad moment, I think.

A British Sikh couple have been told they can't adopt a white baby.

And we talk to drama writer Jimmy McGovern,

ahead of the climax of the hit drama Broken.

He reveals the inspiration behind the series.

It's a thing I've cherished for a long time, this notion of a priest

at the heart of everything. Police, God, not this time.

And Emma Barnett is here ready to let you have your say.

We want you to get in touch with your views on our

You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter -

don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.

Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.

Texts are charged at your standard message rate.

Email us at [email protected].

However you choose to get in touch please don't forget

to include your name so I can get you involved in our discussions.

And here's something to get you talking -

we'll be travelling to the tiny Scottish island of Eigg -

home of the world's first fully renewably powered electricity grid.

We don't have any power showers. You're not allowed electric showers

here! Facebook reached the two billion

monthly user mark this week and Mark Zuckerberg,

its CEO, said "the more connected He likened the social media giant

to a church in its ability Singer Katy Perry recently achieved

100 million followers on Twitter. And, smartphones and personal

computers of one form or another dominate many people's lives -

so much so that now some health experts are suggesting we should

have regular digital detoxes. But can we live

without social media? Mehreen Baig who's an addicted

blogger, has been trying. ALARM SOUNDS. I sleep with my mobile

phone under my pillow. It's the first thing I check when I wake up

in the morning. I use it as my alarm clock. And right now I have 12

messages, five e-mails and a funeral to Vic and is on my Instagram,

Facebook and Twitter. -- a few notifications. Now today I'm going

to do a digital detox meaning I can't use my phone today. Meaning my

precious communications devices go in my safe before heading off. I'm

in a rush because the producer made me do extra shots, meaning and liked

to meet my friend. I have no way to contact her so I hope she will still

be waiting for me. Luckily I find Sophia busy shopping. It's not long

before, without my phone, I start feeling a bit cut off. Time for a

coffee and compare notes with severe. What you're doing today is

amazing. I couldn't do it, and I tried. I turn my phone off and it

lasts about five or ten minutes. I can't even do an hour. I'm really

sorry, I'm literally in the middle of a group chat. I feel like I'm

talking to a brick wall. Sorry! It's fine. I have nothing else

distracting me. My sole focus is you but you are talking to 100 different

people at the same time. I think there is a massive problem with

young people today, including ourselves as young professionals,

putting pictures up to get likes. It's quite worrying. It doesn't help

your self-esteem. If you put a picture up and you don't get many

likes, you feel rubbish. You edit, you look amazing and you put it up.

You have created a portfolio of how you ideally want to like and you

almost are comparing yourself to that fake version of yourself. We

all branding ourselves. We are not brands, we are people. How did you

find today? It's better than I expected it to be. In the morning I

felt quite anxious without knowing what's going on in my day. But now I

am enjoying it. I wish right now we could take a photo our matching

outfits, but it's more the calling and texting and wondering, has my

family tried to contact me or worked tried to contact me? I'm feeling

quite good without it. I'm feeling present and in the moment. Out on

the streets again and Sophia is taking my detox seriously. Not even

a selfie allowed. I managed to get on a snap at last

and Sample some themes. Could you stay 24 hours without your phone?

No, 100%. Its life. I'm on it probably every five or ten minutes.

It's addictive. I think social media turns into a habit. I'm using

Facebook and Instagram, sending pictures in messenger. Kids these

days, you go out for a meal, sit down, and all they want to do is

pick up social media. If you couldn't use your phone for 24

hours, could you do it? I couldn't think so. I use it all the time.

It's something I need. It's how you contact people and stay connected

with everyone. Conversation, that's what people are missing out on now.

It's all this, all the time, tap, tap, tap. I've had a lovely day.

Thank you so much for waiting for me. See you later. Text me. I can't!

Mehreen Baig - relieved to be back online.

And via the magic of technology she joins us now -

Good morning. Nice to see you back online. What were the benefits of

being off-line for 24 hours? The best bits were definitely, often we

don't realise how distracted we are at all times. I didn't really need

to know what was going on with the rest of the world, what's going on

in my friends' lives. I could so totally focus on me. That was really

nice. Were there negatives as well, were you frustrated at times you

couldn't get in touch with certain people and see the latest news?

Since I have been old enough to go out by myself I always had a phone

on me. We're no use at making plans and sticking to them. You wonder how

people use to meet each other before social media. I genuinely, genuinely

was going to leave and go home. Apart from not finding your friend,

would you introduce a digital detox into your life again? Absolutely. I

think we all need days where we just don't have our phones, our faces

stuck in a phone and enjoy being in the moment. I think it's good for

your mental health. Thank you, good to talk to you. Thank you for having

me. Let's see what our panel think -

can we live without social media? Vicki Psarias is a vlogger

and the founder of lifestyle Amina Lone works for an organization

that aims to give women, young people and working class

communities a voice. Mark Ellis is a father of four

and author of "Digitox" - a book about how he tried

to get his family to You have your own blog, how did it

start? In 2010, at a time when I had suffered from a traumatic birth with

my first child. I was TV director before and a good friend of mine,

when I told her about this brave new world of parenting I found myself

in, told me to write a blog and talk about these experiences. I was able

to meet like-minded women I otherwise wouldn't have met. Other

women who were struggling. You are breast-feeding at 4am and you can

tweet someone else in the same position. It became my career. It's

my full-time job and hopefully I am helping lots of other women because

I'm a voice with integrity and they can trust me. We need that, really,

and we need more of that. Incredibly important for you personally, but

wouldn't it have been better to talk to somebody face to face? It was

actually a catalyst to do so because I felt comfortable. You can feel

very lonely as a new parent. I was able to then seek help and see a

therapist to get through that trauma. But it was reading,

connecting to other women and reading other blogss as well to know

I wasn't alone. And also share messages about your body. I started

a campaign called Proud In My Bikini that empowered plenty of other

women. I posted a picture of myself in my bikini with all my

stretchmarks on but I still felt good. Other women felt they were

empowered by that. It transformed lives. A man in the video said it

helped him stay connected. It's all good, isn't it? There are good

things, but unfortunately social media is a wild horse with a will of

its own and we have a belief we can partially control it. A lot of it we

can't, and a lot of it can be negative. I think it encourages a

lot of people seeking approval from people they don't know. It

encourages people to be a little bit dishonest, boastful and

self-involved about presenting themselves. There is a disconnect

between reality and the image you present. You also now manipulate

your own image so you are unhappy with your reality, and you are

manipulated by people in the background who want more information

from you. You are encouraged in intellectual laziness. You don't

think about arguments. And it stunts your emotional life because you sent

emoticons that as someone else has thought up for you. Sophia was

worried about how many likes she would get. I do that as well.

Looking on Twitter I see how many likes I get. It's worrying we base

our life and self-worth on likes on social media. It's a sign of The

Times. Social media isn't going to go away. We are in a technological

age and young children of two or three years old are more savvy than

any of us here. Is that a good thing? It's not going away. It's

part of our progression. But is it a good thing? I do think it's a good

thing. I think social media has brought democracy to the world. You

can contact people you never have. It's giving women a voice. Women are

often vilified on social media, but they still have the voice. A lot of

people I have connected with and work with, I have campaigned with

women I would never have met or spoken to. Isn't there a danger of

one big voice saying something and we all follow. We are all courage to

say the same thing decima we all encouraged to say the same things.

If you want to wear something you want your friends do like it,

whether you go to a party or at school. It's an amplification of

that. There are definitely good and bad things about it, but if you

harness it in a way that makes it work, then it's a positive overall.

We had our guinea pig in the video, Mark, most families would use social

media and the Internet as entertainment. But you pulled the

plug. We have four children, between seven and 18. I had a dad tantrum

one morning three years ago. One was watching television in the living

room, one was on their computer. One had their phone out at the table and

I just had a meltdown. It wasn't a planned thing. I realised we were

all addicted, doing your own things and we had lost connectivity as

family. Too much food is a bad thing, too much connectivity is a

bad thing. In moderation it's great but it can cause anxiety. Did it

work? It did. We will ask the family then... I'm joined by your family

and at a safe distance you can say what you think. Caroline, you are

the mother, what was it like Weston blew the first weekend was

horrendous. It was like taking candy from a baby. -- what was it like?

The first weekend was horrendous. It was a detox. You were 18. What were

you like? Crying and tantrums. Yes, I was. I was spending a lot of time

locked away in my bedroom playing computer games and spending time

with my friends online. I had a really bad response. You suddenly

had to find your brother may be. You were 15. Did you suddenly see each

other bit more, how did you feel? I saw the effect more. I played guitar

more. I went into town Moor with my friends. It was great to stop and

think without the constant flow of messages and likes. Did your friends

think it was weird? It does take some adjusting, but you do start to

look forward to it. It is really good.

Jessica, new 13, you were ten when this started. What would the

downsides for you? I liked the metre with my best friend Lily at the

park. I would normally text her to say would you like to meet up? I

could not do that because on Sunday, we cannot use our phones. Having a

sabbath. So really and other things you miss out on? I saw loads of

things popping up on my phone. It was quite hard not to look for the

reply. And you did not know if you had to do phone -- home work or not?

That is a brilliant excuse! Noah, seven years old, we were upset to

not be able to log onto anything? I found it quite hard because I liked

playing Pokemon. Now I have got over it. You still seem a little bit

traumatised! Thank you very much. Sean.

Thank you. You can always rely on your children to stitch you opt!

Noah, I could hear the violence, he cannot go on Pokemon. Jessica cannot

meet up with Lily on Sunday. And Gabriel said his friends think he is

a little weird. That is a joke, but their friends will be in social

media. That is true and we take them away at night and sometimes I come

down and SnapChat is firing after midnight. And they can pick up their

phone and call their friends which they do. And it is tough, they need

to learn what we are doing as well and it is infectious, other families

are doing it now. Facebook only Mark Zuckerberg compared Facebook to a

Church, 2 million followers, there is a good argument, is it good? It

is good in moderation. It is good to keep in touch with friends in

America. It is a Democratic platform, but there is inequality in

the workforce and a lot of mothers have the same access to reach

millions of people online is a $1 billion company. When has that

happened before? I can get my art into the world and create a

business. It is personally working out for you and I am sure you are

making a lot of money but comparing it to a religion is a bit worrying.

That is a bit extreme. We can disrupt the traditional media and

have different voices, that is very powerful. The thing with Mark

Zuckerberg. The think the Church or The Mask has in common is the power,

control of the people, but religion is motivated by people and Facebook

is motivated by profit. It is worrying and it is not part of a

religion. It is about moderation and the balance. You create a blog or a

website, you own that. You can get your message out there. Thankfully,

we have social media so people can get in touch and Emma is over there.

We do have social media, and Mark says, I am a pensioner recently

introduced the social media, I could not live without it now, I would not

survive a detox. Andy says he no longer feels isolated or alone in

his suffering. And he says, big plus side of social media. Jonny wrote a

blog on coming out as a Christian and it went viral and it enabled

others to get help in the same situation. Ian says if social media

has done one good thing, it has destroyed the print media is the

only source of political opinion. Tim says, social media has killed

human interaction. You get into the minds of your friends and you can

fall out with them. If we did not have social media, you

would be reading out letters! It is a good ring. We had an old person

and other people who would not normally connect to like-minded

people and they could do. Yes, that is not a bad point, but I've fear we

will lose the ability to do face-to-face relationships. I am

tired of the number of times I have been with somebody including my

daughter, she's looking at her phone and not interacting with me and not

hearing what I say. People walk around like zombies about to get run

over, completely unaware. Having relationships in a vacuum is no

substitute for real relationships and seeing body language and facial

expression and vocal nuance. That is why some dating shows do not work

because you cannot see them and have human contact. It needs care and

mindfulness to understand how it is manipulating you. You need to be in

charge of it and to use it for good and not let it overwhelm or changes.

It is a group thing and you become in need of other people's approval

and you accept arguments like your own, you want people to like you, it

is dangerous and you have to be aware of that. Mark, people will be

thinking they want at detox, give us quick points about what they should

be doing. Do not have phones in the bedroom ever, adults or children, do

it yourself, do not just expect the children to do it in their own. Have

time out. A day if possible, but not at first, a couple of hours in the

evening and spread it out, do not do the whole thing. Scribbling that

down, good advice. Thank you, everybody.

The gripping BBC drama 'Broken' reaches its conclusion next week.

The series centres around a Catholic priest, played by Sean Bean,

who deals with people's problems, while nursing private

It's the work of Jimmy McGovern, the celebrated Liverpool writer

who went on from the Channel 4 soap Brookside to deliver

thought-provoking work such as Cracker, Hillsborough

Can I come and see you sometime? Why? Because I think you are in

pain. No, real pain. I am just skimmed, Father.

First, Jimmy, thank you for Broken, what an extraordinary piece of work!

Thank you. It started many years ago, why so long? I tried to

interview a Catholic priest in Brookside in about 1985, 90 86. --

90 86. That was a losing battle. A lot of other writers said, what is

the point of fake? I have cherished for a long time a priest at the

heart of everything. Take this, all of you, and eat of

it, for this is my body which will be given up for you.

I am glad I am doing it now because the Catholic Church puts a lot of

effort into food banks and work with alcoholics and the destitute and the

sick. They are more involved with ordinary people than they have ever

been. You had to persuade Sean Bean but he was always the money wanted

for this role. Yes. He has got humanity. From the very start, this

is a man who will be broken. Amen.

What now? I always had this thing about the title of the show. I

wanted Broken. Because I always argued that when you break the

bread, for me, the main reason is to remind you of a broken body in a

cross. And I think that is one of the fundamentals of Christianity,

the brokenness of people. I really wanted the man who could do that

convincingly. Please, God, not this time.

How has your own faith changed? I have no faith now. I had faked when

I was about 14. -- faith. I took it seriously. But it just faded away

and it has never come back. It has left me with a deep fascination

about faith, especially the Catholic faith. There is drama in there. The

scenes at the confessionals. The speaking from the heart. The total

faith in the confidentiality of that moment. So it is the essence of

drama, all that stuff. You talk about sin. And the evils of the

modern age, they are not necessarily biblical evils, they are economic.

That comes across very clearly in Broken. That is a motion that

informs my drama a lot. You look at a person and you say, there is a

person of great integrity. Nine times out of ten, that person does

have great integrity, but he also has money and he can afford to do

the right thing. When you are skint and you have kids to feed, to hell

with integrity! You grew up in a big family, working-class family in

Liverpool. What is it about this city? I don't know. I think it has

been at its best in this big screw-up -- struggle over

Hillsborough, almost 30 years. The spirit and camaraderie is amazing.

It would power anybody's amazing -- imagination what happened with

Hillsborough. How did you come to be part of that? It was the big

defining point of my life. I can analyse it now and it is no

coincidence that Hillsborough happened at the end of the 1980s.

Because there was this persistent and consistent attack upon

working-class institutions and it was always going to end in something

like Hillsborough. And when it did end that way, I said, I am strong,

to hell with this, I will write truth in future. And so I wrote this

episode of Cracker about a man who survived Hillsborough. And

identifies what is going on. He is a bright lad. And he decides to act

the way he is expected to act. When you hear my accent, he eventually

says, you see in your mind's ie a shaven headed fascist with ace

banner in his hand, I will be that shaven headed Ashes. The people who

died in Hillsborough, they would not want revenge, that is right, but I

want it. Right. I want revenge. So you are going to get it? Oh, yes.

Hillsborough family is heard about this, of course. And one day on my

doorstep was Jenny Hickson, Doreen Jones, Doreen lost her son Richard

and Jenny lost two daughters, Vicki and Sarah. They said, we want you to

tell our story. I said, I have a bottle of wine in the fridge. We

went into the garden and just talked and talked. It was done. You have

achieved so much. You have won many awards. Does it get any easier? No,

it gets harder. The energy required to keep going, the stamina required.

But I am a much better writer than I was. Some of the stuff in Broken is

good. It is some of the best I have ever written. I used to say, I have

a couple of years until they find me out, and it will take them years to

establish the fact I cannot do it. That is the essence of Sean Bean's

character in Broken. His heart keeps reminding him of how unworthy he is.

And many writers feel that as well. Jimmy Stewart, in its own wonderful

life, wondering, what difference did I make? Is that a thought you had?

Yes, it you see echoes of that at the end of Broken. It does end in a

joyous way and it deserves it! After what you have put us through! It

does. Jimmy, it has been an absolute pleasure. Great to talk to you,

thank you. And, by the way, that interview

was recorded before this week's announcement about prosecutions

relating to Hillsborough. The final episode of Broken is

on BBC One at 9 o'clock on Tuesday. Still to come on

Sunday Morning Live: The barber providing much more

than a short back and sides. You really think he saved your life?

Yes, definitely, I do think he saved my life.

First, the story of a British Sikh couple who claim they were advised

not to apply to adopt because of their

They say it was because only white children were in need of families.

Sandeep and Reena Mander say that Adopt Berkshire told them that white

British or European applicants would be given preference.

While it is not illegal for adoption agencies to prioritise

on the basis of race, the Manders claim they've

For us, colour does not mean a single thing. Love doesn't have a

colour so why differentiate that and the well-being of that child growing

up just down to the fact that I suppose we brown skins? They should

be looking at others as people and understanding more about our lives

and who we are and not one particular area such as cultural

heritage, because that can mean anything.

Adopt Berkshire say they don't comment on ongoing cases.

But their website says they will seek prospective parents

of a similar background to the child, though they would not

keep children waiting to "achieve a direct match".

But should ethnicity matter at all when it comes to adoption?

Joining us now are David Akinsanya, a broadcaster and campaigner for

Dr Peter Hayes, who is a Senior Lecturer in Politics

And Sally Baffour, who has adopted herself

Donna is also back with us. Sally, the key thing is surely loving

parents. If love is there then ethnicity doesn't matter. Love is

the foundation but ethnicity is very important in a child's life. You

have to go through life as the person you are. If you are looking

at race, for instance, black and white, people see that first. Peter,

does it make sense to give a child to a family where they understand

the ethnicity and background and they can give that to the child?

There has been a lot of research that has compared children who were

the same ethnicity as their adopted parents and those who were adopted

by different ethnicities, and there has been no difference whatsoever.

We live in a multicultural society with all sorts of races, mixed

races, why is it a problem that a child being adopted by parents of a

different race? We set up a group in 1986 that called together lots of

black children who had been fostered in the care system. A lot of these

children felt lost, they didn't have an identity. A lot of them had

serious problems. We had one woman who was bleaching her skin and

trying to scrub away the black. That is an extreme case but it's

important for children to identify. I don't think it's a hard and fast

rule because a lot of children in care these days are dual heritage.

What we say to the majority of women who bring up dual heritage children

are white mothers on their own. If they can do it... Are you saying

single white mothers with mixed-race children have a problem? I'm saying

a lot of mixed race children are being brought up by their single

mothers without any intervention from social services or other

people. For some it will be a problem but for many it would be. It

is individual as well. Some people have stronger characters and then

send up for themselves and fight against of the prejudices that are

in society. I didn't feel equipped, having been brought up mainly by

white people, to deal with my own internal crises as I became a

teenager. I had to find an identity for myself meaning I spent a lot of

time in Trinidad or around other black people, to feel confident in

society. For me, going to places where I saw black bank managers and

headteachers, which you don't necessarily see around this country.

It's a very personal thing. Donna, we can't ignore the potential issues

of a child being adopted by parents of a different ethnicity. I think

the ethnic elements might be an added bonus. To get down to the

nitty-gritty, I agree with Sammy, there aren't enough good parents out

there for the kids who need them. Kids primarily need to be loved as

themselves, to be trusting of the people caring for them. They need

time. Ethnicity isn't as crucial as those other factors. And we are all

British, we are all trying to fit into one culture here, not divide

ourselves and segregate ourselves and say, in this or that ethnic

group. It doesn't help us all living together. We are exposed to ethnic

groups all around us. You say that but on every job application I have

made in the last few years, I'm always asked about my ethnicity. To

say ethnicity doesn't matter isn't true. But it's not as crucial for a

child who needs a good home and a good set of parents as other

factors. Emma? Emma Johnson was adopted at 17 by a white family.

Good morning. What were some of the challenges for you growing up? To be

honest growing up I didn't really realise I was any different to my

family. I was treated in the same way as my brother and sister. It was

only when I became a teenager that I wanted to discover my heritage and

ethnicity and then I sought advice. You had an issue at school where

there weren't any other black children to be friends with. I

suspect it may not have caused problems at home but maybe at school

you had issues? I think growing up, the environment I grew up, I was the

only black person and it wasn't an issue. I had always been to school

and being the only black person there. It wasn't an issue until I

started going to college. What problems did it oppose them? Do you

look at the issue now and think there shouldn't be any role for

ethnicity in adoption when you reflect back on your whole

experience? At the end of the day what a child needs is stability,

safety and a loving home. Preferably it would be easier for a child to

grow up in a family that have the same ethnicity as them, but I am

living proof that actually if you have those basics in a family, being

brought up in a loving environment, that's all that matters at the end

of the day. I read in an article you contributed to this week that your

mother was getting to grips with how to do your hair. That was the

biggest problem we came across! Will my mum didn't know any black people

and didn't know what to do with my hair. That was the biggest challenge

we came across! If that was the biggest challenge, your hair looks

lovely. Really interesting to hear that hair was the biggest problem! I

don't think it's simply hair, its hair and skin. Love is the

foundation, but ethnicity is absolutely important, because that's

all people see. A young child who grows up in a mixed heritage or

transracial placement will grow up believing they are white. When they

get older and go out into the world... Going to college and

getting a political perspective. Them that ethnicity is important,

it's absolutely fine. The world says love doesn't have a colour, but

loads of people in British society are completely colour-blind. Hate

has a collar. I don't deny that. That's what they experience when

they go out there. It's about having the self-confidence to understand

racism is bad. We just heard from Emma, who is mixed race, was adopted

into a white family, and she didn't seem to have any problems until she

got to university. It's about feeling an outcast. It's about

belonging. Having that sense of belonging. She didn't say that, she

seemed to say there wasn't a problem. She's not exclusive. There

are many different experiences. If you speak to a majority of them, you

find at some point there is a disconnect between who they really

feel they are... You are making a problem for mixed-race children. I

have mixed-race grandchildren. Black and white. Are you saying they

should be confused? The world determines how they see themselves.

They see themselves how the world sees them. I disagree. They see

themselves how we love them. There are many opinions coming in on

this. Nick on Facebook says that as somebody who was adopted its

important to match the parents to the child. I had enough issues being

brought up with a brother and sister who I love with all my heart but I

wasn't related to. Sarah says children need love, guidance and

security. Ethnic background shouldn't be an issue. It makes a

mockery of inclusion and diversity laws. Helen says that saying parents

have to be the same ethnicity of the child is old-fashioned racism. Thank

you to all our guests. Now we're off to Devon,

for a trip to the hairdressers - or, to be more accurate,

the barbers. Not the normal hang-out

for our reporter, Wendy Robbins, but in this case, she's not

there for a cut and blow dry, Just based on's throw from Torquay

seafront is a rather unconventional barber shop run by Tom Chapman. --

just a stone's. What's the best thing about being a barber? I love

cutting hair, I get to spend a lot of time with my friends and chat and

meet new people every day. What kind of conversations go on between the

person in the chair and you? People talk about football, sport, perhaps

a new girl they have met. I have heard some interesting stories about

stag dos and things that I can't repeat on TV! But sometimes the

conversation can go into darker areas. Areas which have personally

affected Tom. I lost a good friend of mine a couple of years ago now. I

saw him in the street, I bumped into him in town and we had a brief

conversation about what he had been up to. I don't know if it was

because I didn't listen enough or didn't see the signs, but a couple

of days later he took his own life and I was unaware he was feeling

that way. It's dawned on Tom that as a barber he was in a unique position

to spot signs of depression and anxiety in his clients. In that

chair there is a level of intimacy and trust. You are in their personal

space and they are normally forthcoming with problems and

issues. People talk to me about affairs, losing their jobs or

relationships, and I have even had people talk to me about their

suicide attempts. There is a level of trust, people will open up about

everything. Suicide is the UK's biggest killer of men under 45 and

Tom has now mobilised a network of barbers, the Lions Barber

Collective, to look out for changes in their clients and possible signs

of depression. We are hopefully training barbers to recognise, talk

and listen for signs of mental health issues and potential suicide

and give them the confidence and knowledge to signpost them to

existing organisations such as the Samaritans, Calm or Mind, mental

professionals who can deal with the problem. Paul is one of Tom's

long-standing regulars. Tom helped to make pretty drastic way. I was at

a point where I was considering taking my own life. I felt so

overwhelmed with everything. I felt so alone. Speaking to him and

finding out about the initiative he was setting up made me feel more

comfortable and able to ask for help. It made me realise that it's

OK to talk about problems. A lot of people have those problems. It

helped me get the help I needed. How did it come about you opened up to

Tom, you're barber, rather than Doctor? I don't really like going to

the doctor. I will not go unless there is something really wrong. I

feel like I am wasting their time, like I don't have a serious enough

problem, so I don't do it. There are a lot of people in the same

situation. It's not Tom furore job to listen or care, but it does, and

it has made a huge difference to my life. You really think he saved your

life? Yes, I do think he saved my life. As well as training other

barbers to potentially save lives, Tom encourages his own clients to

help each other through monthly support groups. The Torquay seafront

is a favourite meeting point. At one point we had 20 people show up to

the walk and it was an incredible feeling to see that. Not just there

to help themselves, but help each other. When that happens, 20 people

stood outside a restaurant down here when I turned up, I was gobsmacked.

I nearly cried. It was incredible. Suicide is the biggest killer of

young men in this country. I wonder if you have any views why you think

this happens, why men are under such pressure? The social conditioning of

men is a huge, huge problem. You are supposed to be strong, dependable.

You are not supposed to have these feelings or be weak. But it's not

too weak to talk about it. What's it like for you to see support groups

like the one you have down here thriving, and men talking to each

other? some men are so isolated so to give people the freedom to come

out their home and talk to like-minded people is unbelievable.

If we can save one person's life it's a game changer. A huge amount

of pride for myself and anybody else who helps us. It's fantastic. That

report from Wendy Robbins. The tranquil environment

of a history gathering in the Wiltshire countryside

was disturbed this week by a row about the line-up

of people due to speak. Historian Rebecca Rideal pulled out

of the Chalke Valley Festival because she was concerned

about the limited number of women The festival organisers say

that over the years, they've had a number of non-white

speakers talking Although this was a minor spat,

it raises questions about whether there should be a more

inclusive focus on our past. To counter this, Birmingham City

University is starting the UK's Kehinde Andrews, a sociologist

from Birmingham City University and founder of its new degree course

in Black Studies - And Steve Mastin, who's been

a history teacher for 17 years and is chairman

of the Conservative You helped write the national

curriculum for history. No, I do not think I did get it

wrong, I think that is quite a personal attack! I thought we would

start with the big one! I do not think so, the national curriculum

provides a lot of flexibility for teachers in history to teach

whatever they want to teach. In a state-run Academy, you have much

more flexibility over the curriculum you teach so you can adapt it to

what needs you see. Should history not, the curriculum, reflect our

broad history and multicultural history? Our broad history is an

interesting phrase. I think most parents and most pupils and most

people in the India would want a history that is predominantly

British. There is world history and European history, but everybody

should know about the Norman conquest, others in the first and

other things. Yes, surely we need to focus on something, Kehinde we

cannot bring in something different for each ethnicity. The bigger

problem is British history is the history of Africa and the Caribbean.

You do not understand history if you do not understand the impact of the

colonies. My uncle and father were born in what we now call Jamaica and

they have come to this India and if you do not understand that as

British can you do not understand what written is. It is a damning

indictment of our so-called education system it does not teach

that is history like that. Is it not fair to say that is your perspective

and Steve has a different perspective? This is a problem and

this is why students at University want to know, why is my curriculum

white and why are we not hearing the full history of Britain? It is a

very narrow view that misses out not just on what we know, it misses out

for the rest of you and how do you understand the world if we do not

understand what made Britain Britain? Emma.

She's an historian, who has written the book Victoria Abdul,

currently being turned into a film starring Judi Dench.

I am a 71 billion citizens. Abdul has risen in his own merit. He also

was a servant. Now he is my friend. I have not been as happy as this for

years. Talking to you about your film with

Abdul Karim, a servant who befriended Queen Victoria after the

death of her husband Prince Albert. Why is it so important to know about

Abdul? It is important to know there was a young Muslim man at the heart

of empire. We have talked about empire and British history, it is

important to know about these people from the wrong side of the tracks,

as it were, who played a role in it. He became The Queen is not closest

confidant for 13 years, the last 13 years of his life. And my theory is

she had a longer lease of life because of Abdul. He took her to

another space. But why is it so important, what impact, broadening

history and how it is taught in this India, can it have on young people

in society? We need to know about the contribution Indians and Asians

and people from the colonies have made to this India. It is important

to know Empire is the other countries that made empire. For

instance, the First World War, we talk about studying the wars, of

course we must know that and 1.5 million Indians contributed to the

First World War. They crossed the sea to fight in the trenches and

they died in the trenches. In the Second World War, 2.5 million

Indians fought for Britain in the Second World War, for King and

India. We need to know personal stories. I wrote a bit -- and wrote

a book about a secret agent in the Second World War he was dropped

behind enemy lines, a young Muslim woman who was killed in a

concentration camp. She was awarded the George Cross, one of only three

women to get the George Cross, why do we not know these stories? It is

very important they get told. They make it inclusive. Our shared

history takes us forward. Our shared past is our shared future. The more

we understand our shared heritage, the more we understand each other.

So something we have discussed a lot, it is multiculturalism and how

we understand each other. Shrabani Basu, thank you for an insight into

those stories. Sean. I have never heard the story of Victoria and

Abdul and it makes me feel we are missing out.

With all due respect, I think she is manufacturing sensitivities that do

not exist. History teachers will be saying, yes, we teach that 2.5

million Indians volunteers, the largest volunteer force ever chose

to fight on the side of the Allies. This is manufacturing sensitivity. I

agree we should include other types of history. There was a Classics

event in London talking about broadening classical education, so

the ancient Greeks, the Romans, it is that white history? Of course

not, it is human history. I identify with them not because they are a

similar colour, because they are human. We in danger of manufacturing

history? No, you have the option but often it is not done at school level

and university level. It is changing the core of how we understand things

and that is why we we started Black Studies to shift the focus and to

look differently at the world and you have a different kind of

education which does not alienate children. I went to 20 years at

school never learning anything about anybody that was not white, that is

a damning indictment and still happens. We have to change the key

core of our curriculum and that is not being done. We're out of time,

but a very good debate, and you are shaking your head! Thank you very

much. Now to the tiny Scottish

island which has created Twenty years ago, ?1.5 million

was raised so that the residents could buy Isle of Eigg

from its private owners - becoming the first island

in Scottish history to be bought Central to island life is the idea

of self-sufficiency, with the islanders living off

the land and reliant We sent city-dweller

Samanthi Flanagan to get Zipping along in a small boat by the

Scottish coast is far from a city dwelling comfort zone but I am going

to a place where getting back to nature and living a sustainable

existence is more than a romantic motion, it is a way of life.

Covering just 12 square miles, the Isle of Eigg is an Area of

Outstanding Natural Beauty. Maggie Fife helped spearhead a quiet

revolution which is transforming this island. Maggie, hello! Hello.

What a welcome, lovely to meet you. Lovely to meet you. I queue for

having me. Your own piece of paradise! Incredible. In a good day,

yes. The Sun is out, we have struck gold! This is just spectacular. This

vantage point. A really great spot to put up your solar panels. Yes,

they need to be in a good position to catch maximum sunlight. Enough to

have a shower and put the telly on? We do not have any power showers,

you are not allowed electric showers here! With the help of specialists,

locals have harnessed all three renewable energies, wind and rain

and solar to create their own power grid. A world first. To produce our

electric from these technologies is quite special. People are incredibly

proud of it. It is a really good team that looks after the system.

When we first put on the turbines, we maybe had to get a specialist to

take them down and maintain them. But the maintenance team were there

for that and they have learned how to do it so they can do it

themselves. Does that extends to other aspects of island life, that

in happens have to have multiple jobs? We do not have an electrician

or a mechanic, we do not have a lot of different things here. So people

have to do most things for themselves. People have learned over

the years to do all manner of things. Eigg's renewable energy

revolution has fuelled the rise of new inhabitants, drawn by its

independent spirit and wild beauty. Celia settled on the island four

years ago. So how many sheep to have? I have 25. What was it like

when you first have to look after she and grow your own food and

sustain your own food chain? I was not very successful! That is how it

started. It just took a while to learn how to keep them healthy. It

was talking to the other sheep farmers but I learned how to keep

them healthy. I have had the sheep for three years and now I would say

they are doing really well. I think I am a natural! O! And this is hot

lips. She is so beautiful. You are obviously still learning. This is a

big new part of your life. How has it changed due to have these skills,

to be so close to nature? It has given me a lot of confidence, I

suppose, learning a new skill. A sense of belonging and being a

caretaker, to be part of the land and to realise how easy it is to

trash it. And yet how much it gives you if you learn from it.

It is amazing. The next couple I will meet have not

been on the island very long, but they have made quite a splash! After

falling in love with the island, newcomers Owen and Lorraine moved

here two years ago. They now provide kayaks and camping pods to the

growing influx of tourists in Eigg. What a lovely afternoon to me

messing about in a kayak off the coast of Eigg. Yes, beautiful

evening and great day. What is the difference between your life in

Shropshire and Eigg? The pace of life, we did not give enough time to

do the things which are important to us, spending time with the community

and paddling. Eigg is a wonderful place. It has extended a warm on the

bus and we were made to feel as welcome as if we were from Scotland

or anywhere in the world and that is quite a special thing. What impact

has the renewable energy and Eigg had in your life? It has made me

think a lot more about how I have wasted energy in the past and now I

think a lot more carefully about what I use and do I need to use it?

My personal energy footprint is probably far less than it was on the

mainland. It gives you a warm feeling of an evening when it has

all been generated in the irons through wind and water. -- on the

island. I'm not quite ready to move to Eigg, I think I would miss my

home comforts. This is undoubtedly a special place, the people here have

been empowered by the choices they have made. It is a wonderful

tight-knit community, in an extraordinary setting. I certainly

can understand why the islanders would not imagine living anywhere

else. Samanthi Flanagan

enjoying the good life. That's nearly all

from us for this week. Many thanks to all our

guests and you at home But why don't you join Emma for live

chat online after the show? Yes, please do, so many getting in

touch. Yes, I'll be taking Mark Ellis out

of his comfort zone, and back into the world of social

media, to find out more In the meantime, from everyone

here in the studio and the whole