Episode 4 Sunday Morning Live


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Episode 4

Sean Fletcher and Samanthi Flanagan with thought-provoking debate. Jerry Springer speculates on the attractions of running against Donald Trump for president.


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The Church of England will today consider whether it should be more

:00:07.:00:14.

As some schools consider gender neutral uniforms too,

:00:15.:00:19.

we discuss is there enough understanding of

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Scotland is introducing a law to make it easier for doctors to use

:00:22.:00:26.

We ask should organ donation be compulsory?

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We meet the Yorkshire farmer who has had eight organs replaced.

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I am well aware of the fact that when we were told the organs had

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been found and I was a match, that there was a family somewhere going

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through absolute grief and pain. They had just lost their loved one.

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Also on the programme, television legend Jerry Springer,

:00:53.:00:54.

who speculates about running for President against Donald Trump.

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If I ran against Donald Trump in America, there really would be a

:00:59.:01:03.

wall built because you would have to build a wall to keep Americans from

:01:04.:01:05.

trying to get out. All that coming up and Samanthi

:01:06.:01:14.

Flanagan is here ready We want you to get in touch

:01:15.:01:16.

with your views on our You can contact us by

:01:17.:01:24.

Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use

:01:25.:01:28.

the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed

:01:29.:01:29.

by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your

:01:30.:01:32.

standard message rate. Or email us at

:01:33.:01:35.

sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk. However you choose to get in touch,

:01:36.:01:38.

please don't forget to include your name so I can get you involved

:01:39.:01:42.

in our discussions. Let's start with an item that

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might get you and our guests here talking -

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transgender rights. Later today, the Church of England's

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ruling body, the General Synod, will discuss introducing a special

:01:52.:01:57.

religious ceremony to welcome in the new identity of those

:01:58.:02:07.

who are transgender. The move comes as transgender rights

:02:08.:02:09.

have become increasingly high profile, with some schools

:02:10.:02:12.

introducing gender neutral And, in a world first,

:02:13.:02:14.

a Canadian parent is currently battling to have "gender

:02:15.:02:17.

unspecified" written on their new So is there enough understanding

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of transgender issues? Joining us now are Juno Dawson,

:02:20.:02:22.

an author and journalist, Mike Davidson is the CEO

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of Core Issues Trust, Radhika Sanghani is a journalist

:02:26.:02:29.

and Dr Joanna Williams The Church is steeped in tradition

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and change comes slowly. Are we asking too much for the

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church to change like this? I don't think so. You have got to remember

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that being transgender and having faith are not mutually exclusive and

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if you are religious there should nowhere more welcoming than your

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place of worship, whether it is a church, mosque or synagogue. I am

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not especially religious but I like to think if I were Christian there

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would still be a home for me in the church. The church is trying to find

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ways of accepting transgender people. I think everybody needs to

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be welcome in the church of Christ but I worry. Yesterday, the General

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Synod passed a motion where it banned conversion therapy. People

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who want to go the other way, who don't want to be gay, they are not

:03:26.:03:29.

allowed to be recognised and they can't have helped. What I would call

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for is a real understanding before we make such a momentous change, as

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is about to happen. If there is a momentous change, and the General

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Synod are just discussing it, if they do change, would you be happy

:03:43.:03:47.

with that? I would be concerned that what we are doing is to encourage

:03:48.:03:53.

people to align their belief system and their body. In other words, they

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will encourage their body to follow what they believe in their mind.

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Christians are about renewing their mind and following the mind of

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Christ, very often. I think what that means is very often we have a

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belief system and if our bodies are going in the other direction, then

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what we are encouraged to do is to make sure that we make our bodies

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are obedient to the mind of Christ. That is a very different approach.

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Lots of movement over here. Nodding or shaking your head? What is

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interesting is how this tells us something about the importance of

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individual feelings, which apparently can override biology, and

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now the will of God as well. I am not an especially religious person

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but I think if you are religious, then a belief in God would be

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fundamental to how you perceive your own identity. It seems now we are

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saying to people, however you feel, if you don't feel like a man or

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woman, God will recognise that. Religion is irrelevant, biology is

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irrelevant, be whoever you want to be. Much of the debate goes around

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children's identity. What do you feel about that when you are giving

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the child the option to choose? I think that is very problematic and

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it can cause psychological issues with a child to say to children as

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young as three or five, how do you feel about your gender? Do you feel

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like a boy or girl? That can confuse children. Is it problematic? I

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completely disagree. That is suggesting that being transgender is

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something people choose, that it is a trend, and we know that is just

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not true. RNA the rest of us transgender? Just me Akpa Akpro as

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the person -- are any of the rest of us transgender? Just me! When I was

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only four I knew it was crazy that people were telling me I was a boy

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and this was the 80s. There was no pressure from teachers and schools

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or parents. I knew 100% with every inch of my being not only did I want

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to be a girl but all being well I was. Juno was three. Other children

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are under five. What is your view? You were smirking. I want to respect

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that experience. You haven't had that experience. I disagree. As a

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young man, I felt I had attractions to the same sex but there was

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something in my mind that told me I was not comfortable with it. I

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didn't buy into the notion that it was just systemic, phobia. --

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systemic homophobia. Just that the country were telling me they were

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wrong. They were my own values that made me feel that I wanted to get

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married, have children, and I wanted to live as a heterosexual man. I

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know people have different opinions, but the point here is the

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possibility is trans-will be recognised fully in the church and

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they will be encouraged but people who want to go in the direction I

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went and are being stopped from doing that. The reason is because it

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is claimed that orientation is in all cases unchangeable. What do you

:07:20.:07:25.

mean that people like you are being stopped? My clients, I work with

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individuals, who for whatever reason want to come out of homosexual

:07:30.:07:34.

practices. And what do you do? I work with them to support their

:07:35.:07:40.

goals. Just as Josie has a goal here. The goal to leave homosexual

:07:41.:07:46.

practices and live in a different way. It's like not being true to

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himself and his clients? I was not warned that there was going to be a

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gay conversion therapist on this show and I would not have agreed to

:07:58.:08:00.

come on because I am feeling ambushed. We don't want to get too

:08:01.:08:08.

much into that debate because it is not the issue here. It Mike being

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true to himself? That is for him to decide. I have not lived his

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experience. This is why it is very difficult. Very often I get wheeled

:08:19.:08:23.

out as the trans person to give my lived experience. That's week we had

:08:24.:08:31.

the Stonewall schools report and I am a role model, and it says eight

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out of ten transgender people and not just thought about killing

:08:37.:08:38.

themselves but has tried to kill themselves. Undoubtedly we have had

:08:39.:08:48.

a huge rise in the visibility of transgender people. And the fact

:08:49.:08:53.

that I am on this show, people are watching this. But we have also not

:08:54.:08:59.

had a rise in understanding. We had man gives birth on the front page of

:09:00.:09:04.

The Sun and also a uterus for men. The tone of the conversation around

:09:05.:09:07.

transgender people, we have got to move it on. It is not a freak show,

:09:08.:09:13.

not a circus. Are we getting the tone wrong? Children are incredibly

:09:14.:09:18.

unhappy. Attempting to take their lives. This is relativistic. We are

:09:19.:09:21.

throwing everything up in the air and saying you can't be whoever you

:09:22.:09:24.

want to be and we have privileged the idea of being true to yourself

:09:25.:09:28.

about biological reality. The fact is that men do not get pregnant. If

:09:29.:09:34.

you have the biological components necessary to get pregnant and give

:09:35.:09:39.

birth, you are biologically female. You are woman. We send out very

:09:40.:09:47.

confusing messages to young children who might be going through a phase.

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To children and adults, but especially children. Be what you

:09:51.:09:52.

want, that is your right, but when we start telling children that men

:09:53.:09:58.

can get pregnant and have babies... So how do you respond when Juno says

:09:59.:10:03.

that at three years old... I have young children and I know that young

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children who are three years old had all kinds of ideas about their

:10:08.:10:11.

gender and their role in the world and their individual identity. Lots

:10:12.:10:14.

of them do grow up and don't carry on thinking and feeling and acting

:10:15.:10:18.

as they did when they were three. I think it is really important that we

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allow children the freedom to grow and develop and recognise that.

:10:23.:10:29.

Sometimes a phase is just a phase. I think there is so much

:10:30.:10:31.

scaremongering here. People the thought of a small child in nursery

:10:32.:10:35.

hearing about trans, what will happen? This disregards the fact

:10:36.:10:40.

that there are medical experts out there. If a child feels like they

:10:41.:10:47.

are trans and they are going to go down that path, there are medical

:10:48.:10:51.

experts along the way. I just doubt that a three-year-old would wake up

:10:52.:10:55.

one day and feel like they are trans. You mention those headlines

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and you criticise them. Turn it on its head. Transgender activists are

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preventing education, the transgender police. The powerful

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trans lobby, one of my favourite myths, that we have power in

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society. Just coming here on the underground couple was giggling at

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me. There is no power. Going back to what was said about trans children,

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the greatest myth and possibly one of the most damaging, is that three

:11:29.:11:32.

and four -year-olds are being wheeled into surgery. It just

:11:33.:11:36.

doesn't happen. I used to be a primary school teacher and there was

:11:37.:11:41.

a young person in the class above me, six and seven. This was a family

:11:42.:11:45.

in crisis. A child had been born biologically male and their family

:11:46.:11:49.

was really struggling. They were referred to the Tavistock in London,

:11:50.:11:52.

the gender clinic, and nothing happened to that child in terms of

:11:53.:11:57.

medical intervention but the family received a much-needed support. As

:11:58.:12:01.

it happens, that child did go on to make steps towards a medical

:12:02.:12:05.

transition later on. Some don't. As children it is much more about

:12:06.:12:10.

having that conversation, supporting them, supporting their family. That

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is not medically. It is about well-being. We have got some strong

:12:16.:12:23.

comments coming in. Lee says that transgender issues are on our face

:12:24.:12:27.

constantly and we are sick of it. It has gone beyond understanding. But

:12:28.:12:33.

this person says it is about compassion, empathy and

:12:34.:12:35.

understanding, so why do trans people feel they need special

:12:36.:12:39.

treatment? Jenna says the church is doing a good thing trying to

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understand the world around them. Anything that can spread acceptance

:12:43.:12:46.

and love is good. And Sarah said more should be done to educate

:12:47.:12:49.

children at school about trans issues that they can understand and

:12:50.:12:52.

learn about humanism. We have put that comments to our

:12:53.:13:00.

panel. It is too much and it is shoved in our face? That couldn't be

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further from the truth. We are hearing more about trans issues,

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which is amazing, but we have not reached that level of understanding

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at all. The Stonewall report that was mentioned, it is everything.

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Teenagers are still being bullied, they are self harming, trying to

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kill themselves and it is horrific. There is not this level of

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understanding. But we know that in this country parents are not free to

:13:29.:13:32.

be involved in working through the issues with their children. Social

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services are stepping in and removing children from families. If

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society too quick to act to help people to change? I think we are

:13:40.:13:46.

getting there, slowly. I don't think they are too quick at all. I don't

:13:47.:13:51.

think anybody who has gone through this process, as Juno says, I don't

:13:52.:13:56.

think so. My heart goes out to the child that you are describing but

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what we have in schools at the moment goes way beyond supporting

:14:00.:14:03.

individuals. If you look at render neutral school uniforms, I have no

:14:04.:14:06.

problem with children wearing whatever they want. But when you

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present it in the school setting as a special gender neutral uniform

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because people can be gender non-binary, I think that goes way

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beyond supporting individuals and saying you can wear what you like.

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It is opening up the idea that gender is something that you can

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choose. I will give the final word to Juno. I worked in schools for a

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long time. I started to see things filtering through when I was still

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at the coal face, as it were. It is more about schools being prepared. I

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am an author now and I travel around schools with my teen fiction all the

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time. It is unheard of now that there wouldn't be one trans and

:14:47.:14:51.

non-binary teenager in every school that I go into. Usually the

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librarian introduces them to me and they are pleased to meet me and say

:14:56.:15:00.

I am their role model. That is so lovely. This conversation is

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reminiscent of something. I was at school in the 80s and 90s, educated

:15:05.:15:09.

under Thatcher's section 20 eight. Think of the children! Think of the

:15:10.:15:14.

children! That is what it is reminiscent of. The LGB community

:15:15.:15:22.

had made leaps forward after 1967. What have we got to worry about? The

:15:23.:15:27.

children, and they introduced that measure, and it feels like 20 years

:15:28.:15:31.

on that is where we are right with trans awareness in schools. There is

:15:32.:15:35.

this slight hysteria. Think of the children, but actually the children

:15:36.:15:36.

are fine. Not a lot of agreement but a really

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interesting debate. Now let's meet a man who has

:15:42.:15:47.

written his own chapter in television history -

:15:48.:15:49.

Jerry Springer. His show, a mixture of confrontation

:15:50.:15:51.

and confession played out in front of a raucous studio audience,

:15:52.:15:54.

has been panned and praised. But it is still running

:15:55.:15:56.

after 25 years. Jerry has also been

:15:57.:15:58.

a news presenter, actor, musician and politician,

:15:59.:16:00.

most notably as Democratic Jerry! Jerry!

:16:01.:16:16.

I was told I was going to be interviewed you, Jerry Springer, and

:16:17.:16:21.

all I wanted to do was say Jerry! Jerry! Does that happen to you?

:16:22.:16:27.

Constantly. 25 years and counting of your show, why does it have this

:16:28.:16:32.

continued appeal? It is so outrageous, it is a circus. It is an

:16:33.:16:37.

escape for an hour of what people do our lives. The first show would

:16:38.:16:44.

probably be crazy. It kind of becomes part of pop culture. You can

:16:45.:16:49.

say I am having a Jerry Springer moment and everyone knows what you

:16:50.:16:54.

are talking about. In any way, do you think the set of could be seen

:16:55.:16:59.

as exploitative? That is not right, everything is voluntary. You have

:17:00.:17:03.

too want to be on and you get to talk about whatever you want to talk

:17:04.:17:07.

about. Now, because these people don't have a lot of money we say,

:17:08.:17:14.

oh, they are trash. But you have wealthy people, famous people,

:17:15.:17:19.

good-looking people doing the exact same things and they write books and

:17:20.:17:23.

they appear on the late-night shows, talk about the latest person they

:17:24.:17:28.

slept with, drugs, whatever, and we cheer them. It is a double standard.

:17:29.:17:33.

Do you still enjoy doing it? About the only reason I do it is because

:17:34.:17:40.

it is fun. If we went out to dinner one evening and I would say, how was

:17:41.:17:43.

your day? You would tell me how your day was and you would say, how was

:17:44.:17:48.

yours? I would say, well, I got this guy who married his horse. Who is

:17:49.:17:55.

going to have a better story? And that happens, you featured a guy who

:17:56.:18:00.

married his horse. Yes. You have a soft spot for the UK, you were

:18:01.:18:06.

born... I was born here, I am an Anglophile. You were born in a tube

:18:07.:18:11.

station during the war. I was told at Highgate. I had to tell you, I

:18:12.:18:16.

don't remember. More personally about you, on the BBC you Today

:18:17.:18:22.

Programme, Who Do You Think You Are,, which looked at your history.

:18:23.:18:28.

-- on the BBC you did a problem. Your family roots, some terrible

:18:29.:18:33.

stories in certain circumstances? It blew me away.

:18:34.:18:39.

My sister and I grew up new wing that we had lost family, they were

:18:40.:18:42.

killed in Nazi Germany before we were born.

:18:43.:18:50.

Where was she sent? Resettled is a euphemism for being deported to the

:18:51.:18:51.

extermination camp. When I look back, my parents

:18:52.:19:13.

sheltered us. We did not notice those scars. When my dad got near

:19:14.:19:18.

80, that is the first time I noticed, there is this story, my mum

:19:19.:19:22.

was scared to death of him driving. She always wanted him to sell the

:19:23.:19:29.

car. One day I said, mum coming you get so nervous, you would do is such

:19:30.:19:35.

a favour if you got rid of it. And he says... He said, well, I'll keep

:19:36.:19:43.

the car until I80, because you never know when you have to getaway. I am

:19:44.:19:51.

going, oh, my. It stuns me, even until this day. He was standing

:19:52.:19:55.

there and he was dead serious. He was not saying it is something

:19:56.:19:59.

dramatic. We had been living in America for... This was the mid-80s,

:20:00.:20:06.

so for 35 years already. And I went, how often... ? How often must see

:20:07.:20:13.

have thought? Did he think about that every night? Was he always

:20:14.:20:17.

afraid every time the telephone rang or banging on the front door?

:20:18.:20:25.

Having those little insights towards the end of your father's life into

:20:26.:20:29.

what was perhaps going through the... His mind, did it change how

:20:30.:20:36.

you viewed people? My whole thing about this whole issue of

:20:37.:20:39.

immigration and everything like that, boy, what these poor people

:20:40.:20:43.

must be going through. These people are trying to get away. They are

:20:44.:20:49.

families, children, they want to live. Why would we ever not want to

:20:50.:20:55.

do everything we can to help them? Did you have faith growing up? You

:20:56.:21:01.

are from Jewish parents? I go to temple, belong to the temple,

:21:02.:21:08.

support it. I am very Jewish. People sometimes lose some face when they

:21:09.:21:11.

learn more about those awful stories. We are not sure perhaps how

:21:12.:21:17.

God operates or whatever, and I don't pretend to know. Here is what

:21:18.:21:23.

I know. 99% of what we are is just a gift. Under any moral, whatever your

:21:24.:21:30.

religion, you say thank you. And the way you say thank you is by giving

:21:31.:21:34.

something back, by doing something for others, treating them well. To

:21:35.:21:38.

realise that could have been me. So of course I will try to help a

:21:39.:21:43.

refugee, I will not make fun of somebody because they are not as

:21:44.:21:47.

smart as me, let's say, or whatever. You sound like you have a good

:21:48.:21:53.

perspective from your upbringing. You were elected mayor of Cincinnati

:21:54.:21:57.

in your early 30s, that was your proudest moment? It is the best job

:21:58.:22:05.

I had. Do you see yourself re-entering politics? I am

:22:06.:22:07.

announcing my candidacy for Prime Minister of Great Britain. I think

:22:08.:22:12.

we can do better. At the moment anything can happen, now we have a

:22:13.:22:17.

reality TV star in the White House. I am so sorry, I hope I am not

:22:18.:22:23.

responsible for that. We're not talking President Springer? I was

:22:24.:22:27.

born in England. Even if I could run for president, if I ran against

:22:28.:22:30.

Trump in America there really would be a wall built, you would have to

:22:31.:22:34.

to keep Americans from trying to get out. Trump/ Springer, I am out of

:22:35.:22:41.

here! He would like that, the ratings would be good. Can you

:22:42.:22:47.

imagine that debate? For my Jerry Springer moment, I feel like I

:22:48.:22:49.

should throw a chair at you or something, this has been very calm.

:22:50.:22:55.

Don't go Jerry Springer on me! I won't. Thank you so much, I have

:22:56.:22:58.

really enjoyed talking to you. And I'm glad Emma didn't

:22:59.:23:00.

throw that chair at him! Still to come on

:23:01.:23:04.

Sunday Morning Live: The survivor of the 7/7 London

:23:05.:23:06.

bombings working with Muslim mothers to stop their children turning

:23:07.:23:09.

to terrorism. Mothers are the change-makers, they

:23:10.:23:21.

protect their children, they are able to nurture and prevent them

:23:22.:23:25.

from becoming radicalised. The Scottish Government has

:23:26.:23:34.

announced plans to bring in a new system of encouraging

:23:35.:23:38.

people to donate organs. It will be based on the idea

:23:39.:23:40.

of presumed consent. Patients are assumed to agree

:23:41.:23:43.

to donate potentially life-saving organs after death,

:23:44.:23:44.

unless their families A similar system was introduced

:23:45.:23:46.

in Wales in 2015 but in the rest of the UK you have to opt in,

:23:47.:23:50.

with a donor card, for instance. We'll discuss the issues

:23:51.:23:54.

involved in a moment. First let's meet Adam Alderson,

:23:55.:23:59.

a Yorkshire farmer who owes his As far as I knew I was a fit and

:24:00.:24:10.

healthy young man with the rest of my life to look forward to with my

:24:11.:24:14.

partner, Laura. In 2013I was diagnosed with a rare form of

:24:15.:24:21.

cancer. I had never heard of it at the time. It took me a few years to

:24:22.:24:26.

be able to say the word. At the time I was told it was widespread. Once

:24:27.:24:32.

they opened me up, they realised the disease was much further advanced

:24:33.:24:37.

and nothing more could be done, really. I was home, palliative care

:24:38.:24:42.

was not really a future to look forward to. I did not know how long.

:24:43.:24:49.

I was essentially dying with not a lot of life to live and I was

:24:50.:24:54.

really, really poorly. The pain was just ridiculous. I could not eat any

:24:55.:24:58.

more through my mouth, it was through a tube to my stomach. It was

:24:59.:25:03.

a bleak existence. I didn't give up. I am a

:25:04.:25:08.

Yorkshireman. I took the attitude of this will not be to me. The only

:25:09.:25:13.

option to remove that disease meant having an organ transplant. At that

:25:14.:25:19.

time there were only three of these operations done, so the risks were

:25:20.:25:24.

quite high, but what was the alternative? I was going to die

:25:25.:25:28.

anyway. I wanted to go through with it. The operation took 17 hours and

:25:29.:25:33.

involves removing most of my abdominal organs, including my

:25:34.:25:39.

stomach, small bowel, large bowel, pancreas, spleen, gall bladder and

:25:40.:25:44.

abdominal wall. Also my liver was shaved quite hard as well. Then I

:25:45.:25:50.

was transplanted with new organs from a donor. And then I was given

:25:51.:25:54.

the news when I came around, by my wife, that it had been 100% success.

:25:55.:26:00.

I did not believe it at first, Laura had to get the surgeon that did the

:26:01.:26:04.

operation to come and confirm that I was OK. OK with the new organs and a

:26:05.:26:11.

new life. Not only do I feel really well, I run now, I did the three

:26:12.:26:14.

peaks a few weeks ago in less than ten hours, which is a fine

:26:15.:26:19.

achievement. I got married five weeks ago. We are about to embark on

:26:20.:26:23.

the adventure of a lifetime. I came up with this idea of doing a 10,000

:26:24.:26:32.

to 15,000 mile trek through Europe into Asia, ending up in a land that

:26:33.:26:37.

tall, Mongolia. You could call it a honeymoon, it is the first holiday

:26:38.:26:40.

since the wedding. I am well and have a life to look forward to. I am

:26:41.:26:45.

aware of the fact that when we were told the organs had been found and I

:26:46.:26:50.

was a match, that there was a family somewhere going through absolute

:26:51.:26:55.

grief and pain. They had just lost their loved one. Since the operation

:26:56.:26:59.

I have written to the donor, which was tough, I did not know where to

:27:00.:27:04.

start to thank them for that decision in those hours of grief and

:27:05.:27:10.

need. My opinion on the opt out is that I think if you are willing to

:27:11.:27:15.

receive organs to save your life, then let's be willing to donate them

:27:16.:27:16.

to save someone else's. Adam Alderson, with a lot

:27:17.:27:20.

to thank organ donors for. So should organ

:27:21.:27:22.

donation be compulsory? Joining me now are Charles Michael

:27:23.:27:24.

Duke, a vlogger and campaigner, Rabbi Jeremy Lawrence is senior

:27:25.:27:26.

rabbi at Finchley United Synagogue, Gurch Randhawa is a professor

:27:27.:27:31.

in diversity and public health and Sally Bee is

:27:32.:27:34.

a health campaigner. Charles, starting with you, Tevez

:27:35.:27:46.

your current situation? Currently I am waiting for a double lung

:27:47.:27:50.

transplant, which I have been for over two years now. It is because of

:27:51.:27:56.

something called cystic fibrosis, which I was diagnosed with at birth.

:27:57.:28:00.

I carried on living with that condition, and still do, up until

:28:01.:28:04.

about 18 when I was approached, really, with the fact that my health

:28:05.:28:08.

had got to a point where my lungs were no longer fit for purpose and I

:28:09.:28:12.

needed new ones. How did you feel when you got bad news? Very hard to

:28:13.:28:17.

take up the time, I was adamant I did not need one and I would be

:28:18.:28:23.

fine. I did not feel it was something I needed. I am an actor, I

:28:24.:28:31.

was on stage doing a show and my lung collapsed. I finished the show.

:28:32.:28:35.

I did not know my lung collapsed at the time. Just a lot of pain?

:28:36.:28:41.

Adrenaline got me through it, I felt weird, I went to hospital the next

:28:42.:28:45.

day, asking for antibiotics to get to the rest of the shows and they

:28:46.:28:49.

said, Charles, your loan has collapsed. This was on Christmas Eve

:28:50.:28:54.

to add to the sob story! So I went into hospital and it was the turning

:28:55.:29:00.

point for me to make me realise that it was something that I needed if I

:29:01.:29:05.

wanted to one, carry on living and two, have a life rather than just

:29:06.:29:11.

exist. That was over two years ago. Gurch, so many people need Ocon logo

:29:12.:29:17.

and orders, including Charles. -- organ donors. We should change the

:29:18.:29:20.

rules so it is opt out throughout the whole country? We have seen from

:29:21.:29:26.

Adam's story the huge life transforming achievement that

:29:27.:29:29.

transplantation can have. Three people a day are sadly dying waiting

:29:30.:29:36.

for a transplant and we need to look at the evidence, which shows that

:29:37.:29:40.

most people who refuse organ donation refuse because they say is

:29:41.:29:43.

a family we never discussed organ donation. The key challenge for us

:29:44.:29:50.

as a society is how do we ensure that conversations around organ

:29:51.:29:54.

donation take place. At the moment in the UK family consent rates are

:29:55.:29:59.

about 60%, if we could get those up to about 80% we would radically

:30:00.:30:04.

reduce the number of people waiting for a transplant. Slobodan opt out

:30:05.:30:08.

system work better? It would be a big change, look at Wales? -- so

:30:09.:30:14.

would an opt out system work better? There has not been an increase in

:30:15.:30:19.

family consent rates in Wales. They say in Wales, the Government, there

:30:20.:30:24.

are more oak -- organ donors and more people are being saved, if you

:30:25.:30:28.

listen to the Government. The number of transplants have increased. In

:30:29.:30:32.

the UK we introduced lots of clinical training, and increased

:30:33.:30:37.

number of trained surgeons had transplantation. Over 2008 and 2013

:30:38.:30:43.

B had a 50% increase in organ donations in the whole UK, which is

:30:44.:30:48.

possible, but the key thing is how do we drive up family consent rates?

:30:49.:30:52.

It does not change if you have opting in or opting out, we have to

:30:53.:30:57.

solved this by having schools, colleges, places of worship,

:30:58.:31:00.

business sector, everybody talking about organ donation. Sally, nothing

:31:01.:31:05.

will change if we have opt in or opt out?

:31:06.:31:12.

I don't believe in opting out. I think it has got to be a

:31:13.:31:19.

conversation. Speaking as a potential recipient or donor in the

:31:20.:31:23.

future, it seems to me that if the whole of society thinks we are on

:31:24.:31:27.

the list anyway, it takes women need to have the conversation. It doesn't

:31:28.:31:31.

matter if anybody is on the list if their next of kin withdraws the

:31:32.:31:36.

consent, the consent is gone. Doesn't having an opt out system

:31:37.:31:39.

encouraged the conversation? No, I think it has the opposite effect. It

:31:40.:31:44.

makes people sit back on their laurels and think it is a foregone

:31:45.:31:48.

conclusion that actually it isn't. You have got to have the

:31:49.:31:50.

conversation and everything we can possibly do to make sure that more

:31:51.:31:54.

people have a conversation with their families to understand. I have

:31:55.:31:58.

sat down with my family. I have three children and two have agreed.

:31:59.:32:02.

My 13-year-old has said she doesn't believe in it and if anything

:32:03.:32:06.

happens to you, I don't want you to be cut up and I don't want anything

:32:07.:32:11.

happening. This is an ongoing conversation I need to have with her

:32:12.:32:14.

as time goes on to make sure she understands fully. Obviously working

:32:15.:32:22.

in this arena, but if I wasn't, if the government just decided

:32:23.:32:25.

everybody was on the organ donor list, I don't think I would have

:32:26.:32:28.

that conversation with my family, which is the most important part of

:32:29.:32:33.

this. Sally says that she is a potential donor and receiver and you

:32:34.:32:37.

are receiver. Do you agree with that? I completely agree with the

:32:38.:32:42.

fact that the conversation, no matter what system is in place, is

:32:43.:32:47.

by far one of the most important things. Would you be in favour of

:32:48.:32:52.

opt out? Personally, I am in favour of opt out. There is evidence to

:32:53.:32:56.

support the fact that it does increase the pool of potential

:32:57.:33:02.

donors, which increases the pool of organs being donated and it

:33:03.:33:05.

increases my chance of receiving a transplant. I am all in favour of an

:33:06.:33:11.

opt out. But it is a soft opt out meaning the family can withdraw

:33:12.:33:15.

consent, and at the moment we are in a soft opt in which means the family

:33:16.:33:20.

can withdraw consent. While I disagree with your views on whether

:33:21.:33:23.

or not opt out is right, I completely agree that the

:33:24.:33:26.

conversation and dialogue should happen. Which is why we are having

:33:27.:33:30.

this discussion on Sunday morning and that is brilliant and

:33:31.:33:36.

encouraging people to talk about it with their families. It is nice to

:33:37.:33:39.

have a panel that agrees on one thing, if not the same way. Why

:33:40.:33:44.

shouldn't everybody have to donate their organs? From a religious

:33:45.:33:47.

perspective, our bodies and our lives are not entirely our own. When

:33:48.:33:53.

we die, we take nothing with us. That we have no property and once we

:33:54.:34:00.

are dead, it is not our body to dispose of, but even more it is not

:34:01.:34:03.

the state to make that decision for us. I am not a state person. I think

:34:04.:34:09.

that people should be donors and they should choose to be donors. I

:34:10.:34:13.

had the discussion with my family when I became convinced of that. My

:34:14.:34:20.

confidence in being a donor should the need arise is not because I

:34:21.:34:25.

carry a donor card saying that according to religious practice,

:34:26.:34:29.

Jewish religious practice, I am happy to be a donor and it is not

:34:30.:34:32.

because I'm listed on any registry, but it is because I know that my

:34:33.:34:36.

wife and my children although that is what I want. I am not going to be

:34:37.:34:40.

the person making that choice. I am not going to be the person concerned

:34:41.:34:44.

about my body after the event. I am not going to be the person worrying

:34:45.:34:48.

in hospital about whether or not my heart or lungs or kidney or any

:34:49.:34:51.

other organ are going to be of use to people. My family are the people

:34:52.:34:56.

who will be worried about that, and they know it is what I want. They

:34:57.:35:02.

know they can go to their rabbi, not me under the circumstances, that

:35:03.:35:05.

they can go to their rabbi, who knows what is the point of death

:35:06.:35:11.

according to Jewish law and how to affect my wishes. What have you got

:35:12.:35:12.

for us? I'm joined now by Alex Rosenberg,

:35:13.:35:16.

an intensive care consultant at Brompton and Harefield Hospital

:35:17.:35:18.

in South East London. Good morning. When somebody dies,

:35:19.:35:25.

what is the process you need to go through to get permission for their

:35:26.:35:30.

organs to be donated? The first and really vital step of the process is

:35:31.:35:34.

that the patient has got to have received all of the treatment that

:35:35.:35:38.

they should for their condition. And it be decided by the team, in

:35:39.:35:43.

conjunction with the patient's family, that unfortunately they will

:35:44.:35:46.

not survive the illness, and at that stage we reach a point where we can

:35:47.:35:50.

start to consider organ donation. It has got to be at the end of that

:35:51.:35:56.

patient's active management. There are some concerns that people think

:35:57.:35:59.

if they are on the donor list then they might not be getting the full

:36:00.:36:02.

treatment because their organs are valuable. Is that a legitimate

:36:03.:36:08.

concern? Absolutely not. One of the things we have got to really convey

:36:09.:36:13.

to anyone watching this, anyone we speak to about this, being on the

:36:14.:36:17.

organ donation list has no affect on the treatment you receive. The two

:36:18.:36:23.

things are entirely separate. Once you get to the end of your

:36:24.:36:26.

treatment, at that stage, we consider whether or not someone is

:36:27.:36:32.

possible to be an organ donor. There are two routes by which they can

:36:33.:36:39.

become one. One of which is that two highly specialised doctors with a

:36:40.:36:44.

great deal of training can do lots of examinations and prove that the

:36:45.:36:48.

patient's brain has no function whatsoever, in which case we can

:36:49.:36:53.

declare the patient brain dead, and they are in a state where they can

:36:54.:36:58.

go to the operating theatre and the organs can be retrieved. We have

:36:59.:37:02.

heard a lot about people's families making this decision at an emotional

:37:03.:37:06.

time and the panel have taught difficult that conversation is. Is.

:37:07.:37:10.

Is there too much responsibility on the family to make that decision at

:37:11.:37:21.

the moment? That is very difficult. The onus of responsibility should be

:37:22.:37:24.

on the individual. If you believe that you want to be an organ donor

:37:25.:37:28.

which I personally do and I believe other people should as well, then

:37:29.:37:32.

they should convey those views to their family. Then the

:37:33.:37:34.

responsibility is not on the family. They are just giving their

:37:35.:37:42.

relative's wishes after they are not able to any more. We have asked

:37:43.:37:49.

whether organ donation should be compulsory and Tadd says it is anti

:37:50.:37:52.

freedom because my body belongs to me after death. The government has

:37:53.:37:57.

no right to my body. I am an organ donor and I don't know why people

:37:58.:38:00.

are squeamish. Take what you need. It will rock or the burned away. And

:38:01.:38:07.

this one on Twitter, everyone's body should be available after death

:38:08.:38:09.

because it saves lives and that is more important than religious

:38:10.:38:14.

beliefs. But this one, if you're not registered as a donor, then you

:38:15.:38:18.

can't receive an organ yourself. Very interesting points. Yes, this

:38:19.:38:23.

is a difficult area. How do we go about getting more people to have

:38:24.:38:27.

the conversation? That is what we are all agreed on. By discussing it

:38:28.:38:34.

here on national television, going into schools, having people at their

:38:35.:38:38.

places of work talking about it. It is by us starting to push that first

:38:39.:38:45.

domino, as it were, starting the conversation somewhere on a big

:38:46.:38:48.

platform and hoping that people at home continue to have that

:38:49.:38:51.

conversation in their own homes with their families. And that is that. I

:38:52.:38:57.

think that is how we do it. You have had the last word in our debate but

:38:58.:39:01.

not the last word on all of this because we hope the conversation

:39:02.:39:02.

will continue. Thank you to you all. This week marked the 12th

:39:03.:39:06.

anniversary of a day when 52 people were killed and more than 700

:39:07.:39:09.

injured when four bombs went off One of the people on a Tube train

:39:10.:39:12.

that was attacked was Sajda Mughal. That moment changed her life,

:39:13.:39:20.

as Wendy Robbins discovered. Even today, 12 years on, when I get

:39:21.:39:33.

onto the tube, it brings it all back to me. When I do, I relive the whole

:39:34.:39:38.

experience. The 7th of July, 2005, began like any other working day for

:39:39.:39:43.

London at Sajda Mughal. She went to her local tube station and headed

:39:44.:39:49.

for her usual spot in the front carriage. It was a busy morning of

:39:50.:39:53.

the platform was very busy. I got onto the tube somewhere in the

:39:54.:39:57.

middle. If I had got into the first carriage, I would not be alive today

:39:58.:40:01.

telling you my story. Just seconds after the train left King's Cross, a

:40:02.:40:06.

huge explosion ripped through that front carriage. What do you remember

:40:07.:40:12.

after the bomb went off? The train shook. Thick black smoke was filling

:40:13.:40:17.

up the carriages. I had to take my blazer off to cover my face. People

:40:18.:40:22.

started to bang on the doors and the windows, kicking at them. I thought

:40:23.:40:27.

this was it. 7th of July, 2005, the day that I die. The tube train had

:40:28.:40:34.

been targeted by suicide bomber Jermaine Lindsay. He was one of four

:40:35.:40:38.

terrorists whose attacks killed 52 people and injured hundreds more

:40:39.:40:42.

that day. What were your thoughts when you realised these bombings had

:40:43.:40:48.

been carried out by Muslim men? That shocked me. I am a Muslim. I know

:40:49.:40:55.

this is not what Islam teaches us in any way. It says in the Koran to

:40:56.:41:01.

take one innocent life is as if you have taken the whole of humanity and

:41:02.:41:09.

mankind. I knew from that point that these four individuals had been

:41:10.:41:12.

brainwashed and the question was how could we have prevented this from

:41:13.:41:18.

happening? Part of the answer, she believes, lies with Muslim mothers.

:41:19.:41:27.

Sajda gave up her job in banking to teach a ground-breaking programme

:41:28.:41:31.

which teaches women to spot early signs of radicalisation in their

:41:32.:41:33.

families and tackles the dangers of online extremism. Ladies, what are

:41:34.:41:39.

the types of signs that you think you would notice if maybe your child

:41:40.:41:50.

or your relative was on this pathway of extremism? Today she is then

:41:51.:41:53.

touring local mothers in Portsmouth, home to a reported eight people who

:41:54.:41:59.

have joined jihadist groups in Syria and Iraq. These mothers have been

:42:00.:42:03.

asked to be filmed anonymously. What brings you to the course today?

:42:04.:42:10.

Portsmouth has suffered quite badly with extremism in the past. We don't

:42:11.:42:15.

want another family to be affected. Through the programme we are

:42:16.:42:19.

learning that it is subtle changes in children that mothers can spot

:42:20.:42:24.

first of all. Mothers are the first point of contact. If they know what

:42:25.:42:28.

is going on, they know what signs to look out for in their children. The

:42:29.:42:32.

internet is playing a part in radicalising individuals.

:42:33.:42:39.

Specifically young people. I developed the web guardians

:42:40.:42:43.

programme for them. This raises awareness and highlighted and that

:42:44.:42:46.

while the internet can be a good place, it is also a dangerous place.

:42:47.:42:52.

We are talking about the signs to look out for if their loved one is

:42:53.:42:59.

at risk. The kinds of conversations they can start having, how they can

:43:00.:43:04.

take an active part in their lives. How do you have that conversation

:43:05.:43:06.

with your child? What have you learned about that? To be open and

:43:07.:43:11.

honest with them. To discuss things we see on the news. To ask them if

:43:12.:43:17.

anything is troubling them, they have heard anything. The important

:43:18.:43:20.

thing is to build that relationship an early age. So that children can

:43:21.:43:27.

come to the mums and dads. Mothers are the change-makers. When you

:43:28.:43:33.

educate and empower them, they protect their children. They are

:43:34.:43:37.

able to nurture their children, they are able to prevent them from

:43:38.:43:43.

becoming radicalised. That then means that we protect ourselves and

:43:44.:43:46.

society from being affected by terrorist attacks. Sitting here at

:43:47.:43:51.

King's Cross, reliving the memories, it is very hard. Knowing what I know

:43:52.:43:57.

and what happened on that day, the 7th of July 2005, would I get back

:43:58.:44:02.

onto that tube on the Piccadilly line? Yes. Because of the work that

:44:03.:44:10.

I do and the difference it makes to prevent attacks and radicalisation.

:44:11.:44:15.

Sajda Mughal and her work to stop radicalisation.

:44:16.:44:17.

Now, school assembly is a familiar part of many children's lives.

:44:18.:44:20.

It's also a time when mainstream schools in England and Wales

:44:21.:44:23.

are required to have an act of worship, broadly Christian-based,

:44:24.:44:25.

unless their parents choose that their children opt out.

:44:26.:44:28.

But two high school pupils in Cardiff have launched a petition

:44:29.:44:31.

calling on the Welsh Assembly to end compulsory collective

:44:32.:44:33.

And one of them, 15-year-old Rhiannon Shipton, joins

:44:34.:44:36.

us now with her dad, Martin.

:44:37.:44:43.

Good morning. Rhiannon, why do you think it is not right to hold

:44:44.:44:49.

prayers in school? Lots of us are atheists or from other religions so

:44:50.:44:53.

I do not think it is fair we are forced into religious prayers when

:44:54.:44:56.

we do not believe in what is being said? About what to others say in

:44:57.:45:02.

school? Some agree with it because they have the same beliefs and they

:45:03.:45:06.

think it is pointless to be reciting the Lord's Prayer, but the Christian

:45:07.:45:12.

ones -- lots of them agree with us but some of them think we are

:45:13.:45:17.

against Christian rights. Do you really feel forced? Can't you just

:45:18.:45:22.

opt out and not do anything during prayers? I think it is wrong, the

:45:23.:45:28.

fact that we have to do it. Sometimes the teachers keep you in

:45:29.:45:32.

if you don't say it and they make you say it loudly enough until you

:45:33.:45:37.

have left the room. Martin, be honest, did you force your daughter

:45:38.:45:39.

to do this? No, she was coming home from school,

:45:40.:45:52.

complaining about it several times. I know her friends did the same with

:45:53.:45:56.

their parents. I said, don't just complain, do something. I told her

:45:57.:45:58.

that the Welsh Assembly has a procedure where you can raise an

:45:59.:46:00.

online petition and get a committee at the Assembly to look at it and it

:46:01.:46:04.

went from bad. She went and saw the clerks of the committee, the online

:46:05.:46:09.

petition was set up and it went to where it is now. I have teenagers,

:46:10.:46:14.

my kids complain about a lot, I don't get them to do a petition. Are

:46:15.:46:21.

you taking it too far? I don't think so, it is principal and comes

:46:22.:46:33.

down to a matter of human rights and children's rights. I think it is

:46:34.:46:37.

wrong in 2017 that we still expect children to save the Lord's Prayer

:46:38.:46:40.

when they don't want to. Good to talk to you, Rhiannon and Martin.

:46:41.:46:42.

The Welsh government says that the collective worship should be

:46:43.:46:50.

sensitive to the beliefs and non-beliefs of different peoples and

:46:51.:46:53.

they may opt out and schools must adhere to that.

:46:54.:46:54.

We're all used to charities asking for donations.

:46:55.:46:56.

But what happens when that becomes pestering?

:46:57.:46:58.

Well, this week new rules have been introduced to clamp down

:46:59.:47:00.

on charities making nuisance requests for money.

:47:01.:47:02.

The Fundraising Preference Service will allow people to say they want

:47:03.:47:05.

a specified charity to stop contacting them by phone,

:47:06.:47:07.

And if they don't comply, the charities could face heavy fines.

:47:08.:47:10.

I met the chairman of the regulator, Lord Grade, and asked him why

:47:11.:47:14.

I think there has definitely been a backlash by the British public,

:47:15.:47:24.

generally, to some bad cases. People are saying, yeah, we are fed up with

:47:25.:47:31.

being pressurised. It puts at risk the incredible goodwill and

:47:32.:47:34.

generosity of the British public. What is wrong with some of the new

:47:35.:47:39.

ways that charities fundraising? There are laws about if you hold

:47:40.:47:42.

somebody's data willingly, if you give your details to -- to somebody

:47:43.:47:48.

they cannot pass that on to anybody they want, that is a basic rule,

:47:49.:47:54.

that is a law of the land. Then there is the question of if you are

:47:55.:47:58.

being bombarded, how do you stop it? You should have the right to be able

:47:59.:48:03.

to say I do not want to hear from you guys. I want to hear from you,

:48:04.:48:07.

but not you. We need to give the public the means to get control of

:48:08.:48:13.

that, which is what we have just launched, the Fundraising Preference

:48:14.:48:17.

Service. How exactly does that work? You can tell us online or on the

:48:18.:48:23.

phone that you want to hear from A, B, C charity but not X, Y, Z. That

:48:24.:48:29.

is registered and the charity is obliged not to contact you again. We

:48:30.:48:35.

have a possibility, ultimately, of charities being fined up to ?25,000,

:48:36.:48:41.

is that enough of a deterrent for the big charities making millions?

:48:42.:48:46.

The power to give fines rests with the information commissioner's

:48:47.:48:49.

office, if they deem a charity has breached the laws and the codes on

:48:50.:48:54.

data sharing they are entitled to find them, it could be ?25,000, ?1

:48:55.:49:01.

million, ?25. Could this lead to charities going of business? I think

:49:02.:49:06.

the risk of doing nothing, in the long term, would be much more

:49:07.:49:10.

damaging. We are a very giving nation and we have to nurture that

:49:11.:49:14.

and cherish it. And keep the goodwill of the British public,

:49:15.:49:18.

meaning charities ethically fundraising. If we go on unchecked

:49:19.:49:25.

the way we work, I think there would have been a real public backlash.

:49:26.:49:28.

Lord Grade, making sure charities toe the line.

:49:29.:49:30.

Are violent prisoners being released too early?

:49:31.:49:33.

That question has been raised after latest figures reveal that

:49:34.:49:36.

between 2012 and 2016, offenders on probation were charged

:49:37.:49:38.

with nearly 400 murders and around 2,300 violent and sexual offences.

:49:39.:49:44.

So what is the balance between allowing criminals out

:49:45.:49:46.

under supervision as part of their rehabilitation versus

:49:47.:49:48.

Here to discuss that are Mark Johnson -

:49:49.:49:55.

a former prisoner and now founder of the charity User Voice -

:49:56.:49:58.

and Peter Cuthbertson, the director of the Centre for Crime

:49:59.:50:01.

The re-offending rates we've heard about this week are pretty shocking.

:50:02.:50:14.

Wouldn't we all be safer if we locked violent

:50:15.:50:16.

And we did not release them early on licence? Basically, I think you have

:50:17.:50:27.

a situation at the moment, I think those figures show you that we put

:50:28.:50:30.

people in the system but do not do anything with them while they are in

:50:31.:50:35.

there. That is why we have had historically high reconviction rates

:50:36.:50:39.

overall. We have always had this thing. My point would be that it is

:50:40.:50:46.

what we do the minute they go in. At the moment we have had Justice cut

:50:47.:50:50.

by half, prison staffing numbers cut by half, privatisation, 70% of

:50:51.:50:57.

probation services. There is no money to get involved in the real

:50:58.:51:02.

point, rehabilitation. Rehabilitation is a good word,

:51:03.:51:06.

surely that is the aim, to rehabilitate prisoners so they can

:51:07.:51:11.

come out and not reoffend? It is very important and always worth

:51:12.:51:15.

attempting, but the attack -- the offenders themselves choose to

:51:16.:51:18.

commit crimes again and again. By the time the average person gets to

:51:19.:51:22.

prison they have committed so many offences they are already hardened

:51:23.:51:25.

criminals and turning them around is very difficult.

:51:26.:51:40.

I agree with your question, putting them in for longer sentences work in

:51:41.:51:44.

protecting the public and they have a lower reoffending rates. So they

:51:45.:51:46.

choose to become criminals, or once they have become criminals they

:51:47.:51:48.

cannot get back into society? Everyone chooses to commit crimes or

:51:49.:51:51.

not. But people have different questions and follow different

:51:52.:51:55.

routes -- different chances. Lets be realistic with what you can do with

:51:56.:51:58.

hardened criminals. For every nice case of a life turnaround there are

:51:59.:52:02.

thousands of victims of crime because we release people after

:52:03.:52:06.

short sentences. Hardened criminals, people who have done really bad

:52:07.:52:10.

stuff, there are victims and families affected. Are they beyond

:52:11.:52:16.

repair? For me the whole issue is really emotive. Rather than

:52:17.:52:22.

having... We have this political environment in which house to be

:52:23.:52:25.

seen to be tough on crime. We have had five Justice ministers over this

:52:26.:52:30.

term of Government, they tinker with the system and do not get to the

:52:31.:52:35.

real point to say how do we change somebody's behaviour? We know where

:52:36.:52:40.

the journey starts with offending, you have just said that, coming from

:52:41.:52:45.

dysfunctional childhood. 70% of the people in prison at the moment have

:52:46.:52:50.

drink and drug related and mental health issues, but we are just

:52:51.:52:55.

locking them up. That is no consolation to the family of a

:52:56.:53:00.

murder victim, relatives of a murder victim, would you look them in the

:53:01.:53:04.

eye and tell them that, that we need to rehabilitate? Someone might have

:53:05.:53:08.

committed an awful crime against them. What I would advocate is

:53:09.:53:13.

educating people on what rehabilitation is. I do not think

:53:14.:53:18.

prisons are behind four waltz, people get educated via the tabloids

:53:19.:53:22.

and the tabloids are generated by this very emotive polarised view of

:53:23.:53:27.

murderers and stuff like that. I have taken a lot of the public into

:53:28.:53:32.

prison to see our work, etc, they never had the same perception coming

:53:33.:53:37.

out as they did when they went in. When Eubank somebody up the 24 hours

:53:38.:53:45.

a day, -- when you bang somebody up for 24 hours a day and let them out,

:53:46.:53:50.

we miraculously expect them to rehabilitate. The system is designed

:53:51.:53:55.

to mitigate risk. Prison governors, they are doing probably the most

:53:56.:53:58.

dangerous job ever at the moment because of the staffing numbers etc,

:53:59.:54:05.

they are there to contain, to contain a problem. Not to address

:54:06.:54:09.

the true cause. If we want a vision of the future, looking at building

:54:10.:54:14.

more prisons etc and locking people up through believing that they made

:54:15.:54:18.

this moral decision to commit a crime and not look at the mitigating

:54:19.:54:24.

circumstances, looked to America. One in 90 people in America are

:54:25.:54:29.

locked up. For longer, yeah, but their reconviction rates are higher

:54:30.:54:33.

than here. Looking at Norway, Denmark etc, they had a really smart

:54:34.:54:38.

approach to crime. I will let you respond in a moment, Samanthi has a

:54:39.:54:40.

special insight. I'm joined now by Leroy Skeet, who

:54:41.:54:43.

was convicted of a violent crime. What were you in prison for? GBH

:54:44.:54:54.

with intent. What was your sentence? Section two life sentence with a

:54:55.:54:59.

six-year terror, I served 11 years. Life did not mean life, should it? I

:55:00.:55:04.

think that is ridiculous. People should be given a second chance. We

:55:05.:55:08.

live in a Christian society and it says everyone should be given a

:55:09.:55:14.

chance. A second chance. What helps rehabilitate you? I realised I was

:55:15.:55:23.

being used as a political football, once I rehabilitate me, only you can

:55:24.:55:25.

rehabilitate yourself, nobody else can do it, you have to want it for

:55:26.:55:29.

yourself. You don't believe the prison system has any responsibility

:55:30.:55:34.

towards your rehabilitation? Yes, but with the cuts, what do you

:55:35.:55:39.

expect them to do? Simple question, probably no simple answer, does

:55:40.:55:44.

prison work? If you stick someone imprisoned the 24 hours a day and

:55:45.:55:47.

treat them like an animal and you expect them to come out and behave

:55:48.:55:51.

like a normal member of society, it is ridiculous. Treat somebody like

:55:52.:56:01.

an animal, they will behave like an animal. I was brought up in the care

:56:02.:56:04.

of the local authority from ten, beaten front-end, it made me more

:56:05.:56:07.

vicious and bitter towards society. In order to give compassion you had

:56:08.:56:10.

to receive it. Treat somebody like an animal, they will behave like

:56:11.:56:16.

one, it is that simple. Google thank you, Leroy. You treat somebody like

:56:17.:56:20.

an animal and they will come out like one, where is your compassion?

:56:21.:56:25.

I don't think any prison treats people like an animal. Locked up the

:56:26.:56:32.

23 hours a day? It is dangerous to say there is only a choice between

:56:33.:56:35.

rehabilitation and putting someone imprisoned. Often the longer

:56:36.:56:40.

sentences produce the lower reoffending rates, we need to look

:56:41.:56:46.

at complementary rehabilitation. If there is one priority for prison, is

:56:47.:56:50.

a punishment or rehabilitation? I would say protecting the public.

:56:51.:56:57.

Should they be punished or is it rehabilitation? It is punishment for

:56:58.:57:01.

the reason that they have often committed hundreds of offences a

:57:02.:57:05.

year. Protect the public for as long as you can. We hear about violence

:57:06.:57:11.

in prisons and the conditions in prison, are we creating more violent

:57:12.:57:16.

offenders inside? It is really dangerous to imply that people are

:57:17.:57:19.

going in a relatively innocent and coming at a much more violent.

:57:20.:57:23.

People get other punishments and they have much higher reoffending

:57:24.:57:27.

rates in many cases. Ten seconds, what would you like to see? More

:57:28.:57:32.

rehabilitation, and some kind of jointed system that is physically

:57:33.:57:38.

through the gate to help people. When somebody goes into prison there

:57:39.:57:44.

will be an inquiry immediately into the reasons they are there, by

:57:45.:57:51.

professions. And it never happens. I absolutely disagree with you, prison

:57:52.:57:57.

conditions at the moment are dire. We have the highest death and

:57:58.:58:00.

suicide rates in custody at records, an epidemic of spice use and legal

:58:01.:58:06.

high use, it is pretty poor at the moment. Thank you both.

:58:07.:58:11.

That's nearly all from us for this week.

:58:12.:58:13.

Many thanks to all our guests and you at home

:58:14.:58:15.

But why don't you join Samanthi for live chat online after the show?

:58:16.:58:20.

Yes, I'll be talking to Charles Michael Duke,

:58:21.:58:21.

who we heard from in our discussion on organ transplants and is waiting

:58:22.:58:24.

Log on to facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive

:58:25.:58:27.

In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole

:58:28.:58:32.

Sunday Morning Live team, goodbye.

:58:33.:59:10.

When I think of the world we inhabit, everyone will think,

:59:11.:59:14.

Jerry Springer speculates on the attraction of running against Donald Trump for president. Plus Sean Fletcher leads discussion on transgender people and the Church of England, conpulsory organ donation and clamping down on pestering charities.