Episode 5 Sunday Morning Live

Episode 5

Similar Content

Browse content similar to Episode 5. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



The battle between sheep farmers and the conservationists.


Is it time to "rewild" our countryside?


We've recreated a hay meadow, and it gives you this fantastic array of


flowers. Catholic Melinda Gates pledges


hundreds of millions of pounds to birth control in developing


countries - and says she's optimistic the Pope might


change his views on contraception. And we join the first amputee


to take part in the final The last thing I want is anyone to


come up to me and say, are you OK, mate? I want to keep up with the


other guys, I want to win it! And Emma Barnett is here ready


to let you have your say. You can contact us by


Facebook and Twitter - don't forget to use the hashtag


#bbcsml. Or text SML followed


by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your


standard message rate. Or email us at


[email protected] However you choose to get in touch,


please don't forget to include your name,


so I can get you involved in our discussions -


including one about whether we're getting too casual and


dressing down too much. I've made an effort, but Sean, on


the other hand, you've got no tie! But I have got a handkerchief!


This week, the Lake District joined the likes of the Grand Canyon


and the Great Barrier Reef as it was named


The decision has been greeted by those fronting the bid


But the news has also re-ignited a debate about what is the best way


of preserving the Lakes, and areas like it,


Samanthi Flanagan has been to Cumbria to find out more.


From Wordsworth to Beatrix Potter, the breathtaking landscape has


inspired generations of The Lake District is home to the biggest


national park in England and England and Wales and it attracts more than


18 million visitors each year, keen to get a taste of the great outdoors


amidst its spectacular scenery. There is a rugged and wild beauty,


but is it wild enough? Some conservationists say that if the


land was allowed to revert to its natural state, it would be even more


stunning. The sheep make a which a postcard sight, but not everybody


agrees. One conservationist believes the grazing by them is damaging to


the environment and prevents more diverse wildlife from thriving. This


particular area had a very heavy grazing history, and that changes


the vegetation. So, this is the thrush, one of the plants which


sheep really won't eat. This kind of grass is another one which they


won't eat. But when you have really high numbers of sheep, you tend to


get down to that kind of vegetation, very structurally simple and very


few species. William's family has farmed the land here for centuries.


He believes people like him are a vital part of the ecosystem and


economy. I've been farming in and around this area all my life, and


the family has been here for many generations at least five. Our roots


go well back. We have to manage the land in a way which allows us to get


a return from it, but at the same time, we're trying not to damage the


land, because it's not in our interests to do that. We look after


it in every respect so that it can deliver a commercial return for


Ross. William rejects claims that the sheep's feeding habits are


causing problems. In some areas, we have reached the point where it is


actually old and grazed. We are doing things on traditional lines,


the way we've always done it. I can't really change it, we just have


to do it the way we have always done it. David is overseeing the project


which he believes could hold the key to the Lake District's future. The


Cumbria Wildlife Trust has transformed an area of poor


grassland, to this... We've recreated a hay meadow. This is done


by taking green hay from a hay meadow not very far away, doing the


soil, spreading the hay, letting the seeds fall out. And it gives you


this fantastic array of flowers. And for people like William, this is a


workplace which plays a vital part in supporting the Lake District's


wider economy. It isn't just about flowers, it's about all of the stuff


that goes around it, the, which is, the footpaths, the walls, the houses


of, the very things which make it a very special place. What are the


difficulties you find with farmers and conservationists working


together? To some extent, we don't understand what the other ones want.


And there isn't a great deal of trust between the two. You can move


quite quickly beyond that mistrust, if you try. Let's work with what


we've got, people enjoy it, let's try and make it work for everyone.


Let's see what our panel think, should we stick to farming which has


been done for generations, or should we allow the countryside to develop.


First of all, Bill Oddie, when they say the countryside is under threat,


are they just scaremongering? " I should say that there isn't such a


thing as a battle. That phrase was used to. And I thought, a lot of the


commentary on that, although it was a lovely film, did speak in


generalisations, which doesn't help. When you say at all between


conservationists and farmers, there needn't be. Some farmers, some


conservationists, work together really well, not just in the Lake


District but all over the place. What about the claims from some


conservationists that farmers are overworking the land, are there some


who do that? There probably are, as it happens, I don't know the Lake


District that well. Somebody can correct me, but I don't think of it


as very, very heavily farmed, as an area. Obviously, it is very hilly


and so forth. I imagine it is mainly sheep, and most of the, how can we


put it, degrading of farmland which I've seen, you have to be my age to


have seen it when it was good, but most of the degrading has actually


been crop growing, rather than grazing. And there are many regimes


around nature reserves which involve sheep, for example, and grazing,


cows, so on and so forth. Is that the picture that you see when you go


to the Lake District and other areas? Not entirely. I have a great


deal of affection for the Lake District, I have known the landscape


since I was a small boy, and there is a great deal of value in the


cultural landscape. It has been worked for hundreds of years by


human hands, and that is a really valuable thing to have. But I don't


think we should pretend that ecological, it's in a fantastic


condition. 75% of wildlife sites in the Lake District are in


unfavourable condition, a lot of them are recovering, which is good.


But I don't necessarily recognised this age of a harmonious


environment. In Britain as a whole, we are one of the most naturally


depleted countries in the world. I think we are ranked 189 in the world


in terms of the state of our ecosystem and biodiversity. And that


is reflected in landscapes like the lake strict, sadly. That is a pretty


alarming picture, you are a shepherdess, it is your fault, your


sheep, and other farmers! We have looked after the land as far back as


I can remember. Like the film said, we maintain it with our flocks. It's


traditional, like Bill said, we work with the conservation side of


things, we have our natural hay meadows, we have our Wood set-aside,


we don't over grazed. There might be a small amount of overgrazing, in


fact, some places are under grazed at the moment. For me, it is not


about that. I think those traditions have gone back, the land is good, it


is how we always remember it. The farmers, particularly in the hill


farming world, we really look after our land, because that land feeds


us, it's our living, and that's where we will be for ever, we will


continue this. But in the film we saw one field which wasn't grazed,


and one which was, and it was very different, for wildlife? It's quite


tiny scenario Myhill farm, I've got a very far small hill farm and I


set-aside an allotment, a small area of land, in a schema for ground


nesting birds, so we took the cattle and the sheep off and allowed it to


go wild. It was quite wonderful. But then it became too wild and the


ground nesting birds stopped ground nesting. You do want this


old-fashioned farming system, working alongside conservation. And


if you do that and take it back to how we found it, as had Stosur, many


years ago, like my grandparents did, we are not going far wrong. But is


it asking farmers to much to set-aside land to do that,


particularly when it becomes economically tight? The economy is


obviously vital for the farmers. The vitality and the economic returns


from the land obviously come from ever intensifying farming systems,


and has to be a balance whereby sustainable farming, sustainable


economically, as well as ecological, that is the balance that we have to


try and find. And there are definitely tensions between the two.


It is wonderful that UNESCO has given the Lake District that


international, global brand of being right up there as the place to go,


and it is an opportunity for businesses and farmers and


conservationists within Lakes to celebrate that brand and raise their


game, so that it is protected. 1.I really want to make is that that


living cultural heritage landscape was granted to the trust, and it


took UNESCO and the Lake District national park 20 years to actually


find the formula, the prescription by which a living cultural heritage


landscape... And that has been delivered and borne out by our


farming community. So, working together. And you have been talking


-- you are going to be talking to one of the big players?


You are one of the country's biggest landowners - are you doing enough to


work with farmers? I think all of us would agree, we can always do more.


That would be farmers and conservation organisations. But


we've always had partnership with our farmers as the bedrock of any of


the progress we've made in the landscapes that we are lucky enough


to look after. I think just in recent times, the whole debate that


we've just been listening to, about how we deliver more for farming, and


more for nature, has helped us come together and have even more


constructive conversations about how we think our farmers to that kind of


mission, to get back the natural health of our wider landscapes.


Perhaps you are working too closely with farmers, then, in the sense


you're not doing enough to rewild the landscape and getting the


farmers to make those changes? I don't think you can ever work too


closely with farmers. They are crucial, we will always have a


farmed landscape, over 70% of our countryside is farmed and it will


continue to be so. What we need to do is to continue to work together


to get the balance right. We have said that already today in the


discussion. We all agree that we need to do something to put back the


natural health of our land, the soil, the water, and the


biodiversity of the habitat. It is an absolute truism that farming


depends utterly on the health of the natural environment. There is no


farming industry without it, so it seems to me to be a common agenda.


But where are you up to on that agenda, how would you describe the


balance at the moment? I think we have definitely got to a tipping


point, where over-60s percent of our native species and habitats are in


decline, we know that. It's not a good picture, so we have to do more


to get the balance back. At the same time, we've got real threats coming


towards farming from Brexit, where Common Agricultural Policy, the


bedrock of much of the finance which supports the farming industry, is


definitely at risk. Although that sounds threatening, I think it is an


opportunity to redraw exactly how we create a system that supports


farmers to have good livelihoods, to stay on the land so that we can


enjoy the fantastic cultural things that we see in the hills, in the


lowlands and across our mixed farming areas, and at the same time


put health back into nature. Patrick Begg, Rural Enterprise Director for


the National Trust, thank you very much. We have been talking about


rewilding reports from the Royal Society this weekend, calling for


the reintroduction of carnivores into areas, and we're talking about


great Wolves, brown bears... Even if you have not set foot in the


countryside, it is a bit of an issue, isn't it? I think this is a


really important dimension which has been reintroduced by this whole


rewilding debate. It is not just about the headline grabbing


carnivores. The key thing which it refers to is the presence of what I


would call his tone species. This is the difference between rewilding and


what you would call re-naturalisation. There are


keystone species which drive ecological processes and the


benefits they have cascade through the ecosystem. Wolves and links are


examples of that, but it is also things like beavers, pine Martin,


Wilde bought etc. I'm not saying that we should go into a countryside


full of Wolves and just unleash them. But potentially, it is an


element of the conservation toolkit in helping to restore the landscape.


We're already seeing examples of it. Beavers have successfully been


reintroduced into area of Scotland, pine Martin, etc.


When we talk about rewilding, how does that make you feel? Real good!


I do think it is a silly phrase. The concept behind it? I don't think,


basically in terms of plants which will attract insects and so on,


there is usually a planned and eight design behind planting, as you know.


But I must admit that you have to look at each animal and each


situation separately. Walls, I can't see that going without a problem. --


walls. We have sheep farmer here. How comfortable would you feel with


wolves? Really uncomfortable. The thought of going out onto the fells


and having wolves. Things like beavers I understand, but not


predators. So beavers would be fine? Beavers are already there. Wolves,


links and there's in the Lake District mountains, they are


naturally going to want to eat, and what would they eat? It would be


sheep or lambs. It would cause an uproar among the community and fell


walkers, and it would cause chaos. Rewilding is causing some debate,


because some are saying it means different things to different


people. I would support planting trees to help with water run-off,


but Peter says, do not bring back dangerous animals. The great beauty


of this country is the general careless way we can roam through it.


John says, it is a living environment and farming has made it


what it is. It's not for outsiders to say how it should be. And Rose


says, just leave it alone. When outsiders try to improve on nature,


it messes it up. Another says, sheep farming is part of the landscape in


the Lake District, and to mess around with it is changing nature,


not helping it. Done, how do we move forward with this? We have to do


deep polarise the rhetoric of the farmers and conservationists and


find a middle ground. I would like to say that the middle ground is


almost there. The damage done through European heritage payments


that we lived with through the 70s and 80s that did actually cause


overgrazing and trashing the landscapes, that has been reversed


by great environmental schemes such as the environment in sensitive


areas and HLS schemes. That has reversed overgrazing, and with the


statistics I saw we were back at the sheep numbers we had pre-those HLS


payments. We are back there, so we can give the landscape is the


opportunity to heal and celebrate the UNESCO site. I agree that there


have been great improvements in recent times, and I think there is a


danger of this becoming pure polemic. What this debate about


rewilding has introduced is an important debate we should be


having, but I absolutely agree that there is common ground. There has


been movement. Farmers are not entirely recalcitrant and


reactionary. There are farmers who are prepared to work to rough up the


natural environment and provide more space for the nature to breathe.


That is the basis for moving forward. There is common ground.


It's an interesting debate. Thank you very much.


Catwalk contests like Miss World and Mr World are often associated


with the body beautiful - but one man is on a mission


to change our perception of what that means.


Jack Eyres lost his leg at the age of 16.


On Friday night, he made history when he became the first amputee


to compete in the final of Mr England, a pathway


Wendy Robbins went to Birmingham to see if Jack would scoop


the prize, and to find out how he's overcome the barriers he's faced.


This is Jack Eyres, personal trainer, model and all-round hunk.


He also has only one leg. The other was amputated when he was 16. What


was the condition you had when you were born? It was a deficiency in


the lake that meant it didn't develop properly, the muscle


structure, the bone structure and the joints didn't develop. What did


that mean as a child? I was different to other people. It


knocked my confidence. I was different from others. How does that


affect you? You get singled out. When that happens to a young,


vulnerable child, it's difficult. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know


how to act or what to do or what the future was going to be. Everything


was unknown. Teachers would say, what you want to do when you grow


up? And I was like, I've no idea. When I and then came a defining


moment. When I was 16, I went to have my leg amputated. They offered


me lots of treatment. I was introduced to a guy who had had his


leg amputated, and I thought, maybe this is a good option. With that new


leg came new confidence. Jack became a fitness trainer and set his sights


even higher. 2005, I was part of the Paralympic opening ceremony, in


front of 80,000 people and the Queen, flying 30 foot in the air on


harnesses. It was all about breaking barriers and saying that you don't


have to be vulnerable and weak. And I got a taste for the limelight. And


I was like, what next. What came next was water-skiing, modelling,


and other work. And even an advert. It was an advert, it was a take on


the old Levi's advert, where you go into a launderette and take your


clothes off. Now Jack is in the Mr England contest, the first amputee


to make the finals. When we did the fitness thing today, so many


amputees would have shied away from that. It's the first time I had done


those exercises, especially in a group. The last thing I want is


people to come up to me and say, are you OK, mate? I want to keep up with


the other guys and I want to win. To win Mr England, as well as physical


fitness, contestants had to compete in tests that include general


knowledge, charity work, talents, and basically use confidence. You


can guess who I am rooting for. If Jack wins, what an inspiration. Jack


has obviously caught the judges' attention, because he wins an early


award for popularity. But the big prize is still up for grabs.


Everyone needs a role model, and I believe that Mr England does that.


I'm so glad I won Mr popularity, because it proves to me APPLAUSE It


proves to me that I'm getting support to do my thing, so thank you


so much. Congratulations. It's getting closer


to the final result. Jack is feeling the tension. I'm feeling pretty


nervous. I'm pretty tired. If you win tonight, what does that mean for


you? It means a lot to me. It's such an impressive platform to get my


message out there, and tried to become a role model. It would mean


an awful lot to me, but I know there's a lot of strong competitors


here with some stories as well. We will see what happens. The big


moment is here. Mr England 2017... He will represent England at Mr


World. It goes to... Jack Eyres! Jack Eyres, you are Mr


England 2017. Jack is overwhelmed, and so am I. What a result! What was


that moment like when it was announced? Incredible. It took me a


little while to understand what he said. And then when you realised it


was you? My heart went up ten levels! Oh, man. Relief as well. So


much relief. I really, really wanted it. I'm really going to use it. This


isn't it now. I'm going to use this platform is so wisely. What does it


mean for disabled people? The first amputee Mr England, the first


amputee to be going for Mr World. Congratulations to Jack -


he's a real inspiration! Still to come on Sunday


Morning Live.... What singer Macy Gray decided to buy


after she hit the big time. Ideas like really insane things to


my house. I had a bronze statue of myself around the house. Yes, and


naked statue of yourself around the house! Yellow yes. That was


expensive. This week, the Bill


and Melinda Gates Foundation, set up by the multi-billionaire


and his wife, announced several hundred million pounds' worth


of funding for family planning programmes in some of


the world's poorest countries. The plan, supported


by the British Government, is to reduce unwanted pregnancies


and help prevent While the cause may not seem


unusual, what is surprising is that Melinda Gates is a Catholic -


a church which has long been against the use


of any contraception. Melinda says she's "optimistic"


the Pope will change his views. We have a shared mission around


social justice and anti-poverty, and I think that this Pope sees that if


we are going to lift people out of poverty, you have to do the right


thing for women. We have agreed at this point to disagree.


The Pope shows no sign of fulfilling Melinda Gates' hopes.


Should the Catholic Church change its stance on contraception?


Obianuju Ekeocha, a Catholic campaigner for the promotion


Danielle Spencer, who is an international aid worker.


Clare Short, Catholic blogger and writer.


And Amy Lavelle, a journalist and feminist.


The money being made available will help people control the size of


their families. Is that a good step in terms of poverty? I'm sure


Melinda Gates means well, but there is an arrogance in what I see is


question is not being asked in all this talk about contraception and


helping women to space their children is what exactly, when


speaking of Africa, what exactly do women want? In most African


countries you get defined, as research shows, that African women's


desired number of children is actually quite high. So in cultures


where people value children or value big families, what are you saying to


the women if you continue to push their governments towards the


so-called family planning project? This might be indeed an insidious


way of moving the agenda of population control. So family


planning projects in developing countries are bad? I'm not saying


that. Are they western countries forcing their values? Exactly. They


are not bad in themselves, but there is a real problem with a multi


billionaire from a western country coming in to tell African countries


what to do or how to control their population is. Danielle, what do you


think? It's an interesting perspective, but action aid is


different from the traditional model of NGO work. We work with rights


organisations, and we deliver what they ask us to deliver. They are


asking us to deliver family planning. In our most recent report


we spoke with the women called Evelyn. She risked domestic violence


and abuse from her husband in order to take contraception in secret. In


the health system in Liberia, where she is from, it was apparent she had


to go with her husband in order to receive contraception, and there was


a disagreement within that family. Her husband was violent. One in


three women experienced sexual or physical violence most likely at the


hands of a partner. Reproductive coercion is a real issue. We need to


be able to not leave those women behind. We talk about birth control.


What about disease? Action aid is really a women's rights


organisation, so it is really about choice. If women have the choice,


then obviously the spread of disease would go down, but fundamentally, we


are not talking about population control or economics, we are talking


about women's rights to choose whether to have a child, and that is


very difficult for a huge number of women who are in violent


relationships. Isn't it about time the Pope changed


the Catholic stance on contraception? It is interesting,


because whenever we get into this debate, you have got the artificial


contraception side saying, this is a women's issue. And two you know


what, it's not. The way the Catholic Church approaches it is that this is


a couples issue. And this is really important. Artifice or


contraception, they say that all of the responsibility is on the woman's


shoulders. -- artificial contraception. The Catholic Church


says it should be equal responsibility between the husband


on the wife. What about when you don't have an equal relationship,


where it is an abusive relationship? This is really difficult. Obviously,


relationships like that are bad and the woman needs to be put into a


safe place. But by giving her contraception, all you are doing is


allowing her to remain in that abusive situation. It does not solve


the problem. So, you need to be tackling the problem. Family


planning, with the Catholic Church, what it teaches is not only about


empowering women to understand their physiology and their fertility and


how their body Works, but also to educate their husbands as to how the


woman's Bodyworks. It is built on the relationship, and the effect it


has on the relationship is equally as important. It is coming in with


all of these really good, positive things. If it is a fundamental, core


value of the Catholic Church, it is asking a bit too much to get it


changed? I don't think so, the Pope has been progressive on so many


issues, and even on contraception, he has said it is not an absolute


sin. He did not say that, he absolutely did not say that. I don't


think he did James Wright I saw in a comment he made to reporters, he


said it is not an absolute... But I think it is a woman's issue, because


yes, it is part of the couple's relationship to be able to decide


when and if they get pregnant, but ultimately it is the woman who goes


through, it should be the woman who has a bit more control over it. I


think it is a woman's choice, especially when you're looking at


violence. Actually, the church itself has a huge role to play in


talking about women's rights. I've worked with religious leaders from


multiple faiths, talking about women's rights and empowering women.


In one example, we worked with Evelyn, as an example, and we did


actually work with her husband as well. They have negotiated a smaller


family as a result. He's on board with the contraception. When we met


them in 2012, she wasn't allowed out of the house. Now, he's encouraging


her to go out of the house and talk to other women and other men about


contraception. We have been talking about religious leaders, and


catholic priests are on the front line on this subject.


I spoke to Father Paddy McCafferty. What do you say about those this


issue? To be honest, it does not come up very often at all. In fact,


very rarely. I've been a priest for 28 years and I can nearly count on


one hand the number of occasions this has arisen as an issue, as any


type of issue at all. I think that is quite interesting just some


people might be surprised to learn that. Is what you're saying that


there is a kind of turning of a blind eye to this issue, that you


let members of your congregation do what they feel they can, and you


just don't really talk about it? No. I don't think that's the issue at


all. We maintain the teaching. The teaching is a difficult one, and in


the modern age, it is a very unpopular one, obviously. And it's a


difficult one to explain. But because a thing is difficult, it


doesn't mean that we abolish it all return a blind eye to it. The


teaching is what it is, and even though it's challenging, even though


it demands from people a certain discipline and commitment, I do


believe that it is a very valuable teaching, I believe it is a


prophetic teaching. Melinda Gates, the philanthropist who has been in


the UK this week for a family planning summit, she herself is a


catholic, she is hopeful that the Pope will change the Catholic


Church's position on contraception - what do you think? No, I don't


believe we should change the teaching simply because it's


difficult. Obviously, the teaching and the pastoral practice of the


Church essentially is informed by compassion for the person, the


struggle of people with difficulties. That all being said,


the teaching itself is valuable. The teaching I believe is prophetic in


modern times. Where there is a very promiscuous attitude towards human


sexuality in general, and in particular the whole contraceptive


mentality and ideology. I think that the church's teaching is still very


valuable and needs to be maintained. Father Paddy McCafferty, thank you


so much. Father Paddy McCafferty saying that the church's teaching is


valid and needs to be maintained - that's fair enough, isn't it? I


think it is a modern world and you need to work with the issues we


facing. There are a lot of women, we are not talking about promiscuity,


we're talking about sex within a marriage, I personally know women


who have had a number of children who have been told they can't have


any more without risking their lives. I think you need to be able


to address people like that and say, you have a choice, you need to be


able to protect yourself and your unborn children as well. Were


talking about something from 1968, surely that's out of date? No,


actually, Sean, you are basing this on the Western view to human


sexuality and to marriage or the attitude towards sex. There is a


problem where the Western world, or people within the Catholic Church in


the Western world, continue to try to push the agenda, or their


viewpoint on a church which is supposed to be universal, which


actually, since 1980, Africa has had the most tremendous growth... And a


huge amount of poverty. But also, there is a reduction of poverty.


There has been a reduction of poverty, in percentage terms of.


There are parts of Africa that people don't... Parts of Africa. The


problem is that Africa, what we continue to see from news stations,


Western media, will be the parts of Africa that seemed to be very weak.


Nobody is talking about the way the Africans see the family, how we


understand marriage and things like that. But there is a problem when


people from the Western world continue to push their worldview on


a church which is supposed to be universal. It is a problem. And the


church in Africa is a vital, vibrant church, if people didn't like the


teachings, then the church would not have been growing as it is. Why


would Melinda Gates, a woman who is Western, just because she's wealthy,


try to put her worldview on a church which is supposed to be universal.


Money people would say that is modern-day colonialism. It is. This


one says, the church should not influence government policy on


contraception or anything else. This one says, the Catholic Church should


be delivering the best teaching to us. It overlooks the role of sex as


something which cements relationships together. The


prohibition of condom is makes no sense. This one says, the church is


well aware that people are using contraception, and I suspect they


also understand. This one says, go and look around the world at one of


those poor children dying, one after the other, from starvation. The


Catholic Church preaches no contraception, why don't you sell


your many priceless treasures and feed them? And this one - the


teaching will not change, it is time for those who do not want to be


catholic to just leave the faith. Strong stuff! Danielle, let's ring


this back to Melinda Gates. She says she can agree to disagree with the


Pope, but imagine the Pope was able to in the Catholic Church, what


would that mean? It would mean an awful lot to many women in the


church and outside of the Catholic Church as well. What difference


would it make? It would mean that they would have the right to choose.


But bringing it back to what's being discussed today, I think also we


need to bear in mind that there are 700 million women and girls alive


today who married as a child. It is not just about violence or other


issues, but children don't have a pelvis which is formed and yet


they're marrying, having children and dying. We should fight child


marriage, then. But we can't do it just like that. In order to prevent


children dying, then... That's a Band-Aid! I will give the last one


to Clare... One really important point which nobody has discussed yet


is that nobody really understands, nobody here, you clearly don't,


you're not a catholic, I don't blame you for that. Melinda Gates says


she's a catholic, I don't believe she's a practising. Nobody has


explained what the Catholic Church teaching actually is on sex and


marriage. There is so much prejudice that we have to put up with as


Catholics, because people do not take the time to learn what the


proper teaching is and see how it empowers the woman, see how it


empowers the marriage and enhances the marriage, and it is a good and


beautiful teaching. I've lived the contraception lifestyle, I lived it


for many years. I have lived the NFP lifestyle, and I can tell you that


there is no comparison. We will end it on that, thank you to all of you


on the panel! American jazz and soul singer


Macy Gray hit the big time after releasing her hit


single I Try in 1999. Instead of being the making of her,


the resulting fame almost destroyed her,


as she turned to drugs Now back on tour in Europe


and recording new material, Macy talked to Nihal Arthanayake


about her journey to the top and # And I may seem all right


and smile when you leave I'm intrigued to know about Ohio,


you spent your formative years. It is the kind of place where your dad


has two jobs, everybody has a bunch of kids and... It is like an


all-American city. Did you grow up in largely an African-American


environment? Was it mixed? It was very separated, not the point of


people hating each other, it was just very like a... Does that mean


you were quite shielded from any racism when you were growing up?


There was a lot of incidents, the way people treat you or the way they


look at you all the way they shake your hand. You don't have to get


caught up in it, it's just a there. For yourself, your voice,


everything, feeling different, it became in your music career a major


bonus, but in life growing up, it must have been quite difficult? It


was awful. I was always really awkward and never quite comfortable


with myself. I'm still a little bit. Just to be completely OK with who


you are, that must be a great state, because I can't imagine what that's


like. Without your vulnerabilities, you would never have been able to


make the music? There is always a thing, if you want to be successful,


I think you have to have something lacking, because you're looking for


something to fill it up. Maybe it will fill it up but it probably


won't. But you're definitely trying to prove something and you go after


the big-time. # I play it off, but


I'm dreaming of you What was it like when you realised


you were in the eye of this storm, with a millions of sales?


# Though I try to hide it, it's clear


Well, it gives you a lot more confidence because you have people


coming to get your picture and your autograph. That builds you up, I


don't care what anybody says, that's nice. But when did you first


realise, I've got money? If you can spend it and it keeps coming, it's


really nice. You recommended! I recommend it highly! If only! What


is the most extravagant thing you did, that do look back on and think,


what were you thinking? I just did really stupid stuff. I


did really insane things to my house. I had a bronze statue of


myself at my house. A naked statue. Yes. Macy, it's well documented that


you had quite a party lifestyle, involving drink and drugs. How did


you get away from that? Vanity. I looked at myself in the mirror one


day and I looked horrible. And I quit. Is it that straightforward?


Yes. I was still in my early 30s and I had bags under my eyes, and I was


waking up with nosebleeds, and I was really, really skinny. The thing


that people don't realise about, when you are taking substances, is


you feel awful. You might be partying, but you don't feel good.


# We had such a good time # I thought you'd call me... There


is so much conversation these days about mental health issues. You've


been through those situations yourself. What helps you? I have


kids. They do get you out of yourself. It's something you just


get through. There's no like formula or road map. You just get through


it. You just wait it out. Is safe to any part of that road map? Yes. I've


always had a really great relationship with God. My mother


used to take me to church every Sunday. I used to like jumping in


the mud so I couldn't go to church, because you can't go with your dress


all messed up. So when did faith become your choice? I think I was


about 12. I remember looking up at the sky. The sun was setting, so


there was a layer of purple, and on top of that there was orange, and


then it was light blue, and on top of that it was dark blue, and that


was when I knew there was someone up there. It was obvious to me that


someone was making stuff, drawing. It looked so created to me. Being


back on the road, how does it feel? It's great. I love playing live. The


stage, you know, I'm queen up there. I love playing on the stage. And


tell me about the new album. All you be, you need.


# Stop, drop... It's a really good body of work, and


I'm just at the point of putting it all together and just making it have


a point. So if you're going to be here, be used.


Macy Gray - still got that fabulous husky voice.


Now, are you chilling out in your weekend gear?


If so, you're in good company,


because the Church of England is in the process of loosening


Instead of formal robes for services, clergy will be given


The more laid back approach is evident elsewhere too.


Male MPs have been told they no longer need to wear a tie


Away from parliament, dress codes and conventions have


I noticed yesterday, Sir, that a member was allowed to ask a question


in the chamber without wearing a tie. I have no particular view on


that, but have the rules on that changed, Sir? It seems to me that as


long as a member of rise in the house in what might be thought to be


businesslike attire, the question of whether or not that member is


wearing a tie is not absolutely front and centre stage. So am I


minded not to call a member simply because that member is not wearing a


tie, no. Away from parliament,


dress codes and conventions have certainly relaxed over the years


in all sorts of professions. So as doctors, teachers and city


gents all go more casual is that a good thing -


or are we dressing down too much? Joining the panel now


are Andrew Ramroop OBE, a master tailor working


on Savile Row, Laura Puddy,


Style Editor for Heat magazine, Luisa Zissman, businesswoman


and TV personality, We're becoming far more


casual in our dress. As a style editor,


does that bother you? Not at all. I don't think dressing


down necessarily means dressing scruffily. You can look very smart


in business smart casual attire. It's very subjective. As long as you


are dressing appropriately for where you are and where you need to be,


there's not a problem in dressing down. Andrew, there is a change in


times. I notice you haven't got a tie on. I'm projecting the image of


a casual Sunday morning! Does it worry you that things are changing?


It doesn't worry me so much, but I think there has been some


relaxation. The subject of the tie was raised a few years ago when the


London Chamber of Commerce decided that their members did not need wear


ties to come into their offices, or join the membership, and at that


time there was a lot of confusion in the city as to whether one should


dress up or dress down for business. You would dress for business to meet


your client, and the client would dress down. So the next time, your


client would dress up and you would dress down. So there was a lot of


confusion and no uniformity. But if there is an aspect of dressing in a


suit but not necessarily a tie... So if Bill turned up for a business


meeting dressed like that, how would you feel? It's horses for courses. I


wouldn't get in. I have been thrown out of some of the very best hotels


and restaurants in my time, and I went to the palace to get my oh be


with a Hawaiian shirt on. Nobody complained. The Queen didn't say,


I'm not going to give it to him! But everybody thinks you're supposed to


wear tales, top hat and everything, but you don't have too. Bill, it's


what you feel comfortable in that is what really matters. I don't think


it is. I'm not sure it is, because Thais are incredibly uncomfortable.


I cannot wear a tie. I do not have a tie. I don't possess one. Talking to


some friends last night, we said, why does anybody what is it for? It


can keep you warm. Keep you warm? Let's bring Louisa in. They wouldn't


have let me on their looking scruffy. They monitor your clothes


every morning on it. That is production, not Lord Sugar, but they


did tell a couple of the girls to get changed because what they were


wearing was not appropriate. I don't think smart casual needs to be


scruffy. We are confusing the two things. I think you need to be


presentable for work. I wouldn't employ some people if they came to


me and I didn't feel they were dressed appropriately for work. It


depends what business you are in. You work in the media, so you are


fine wearing jeans, flat shoes, cardigan or an oversize jumper.


Sometimes I wouldn't want my staff facing clients if they were in jeans


and looking scruffy. I'm not saying that women need is a and heels, but


you need to look professional for the job you are doing. And in


Parliament, that means wearing a tie. Emma looks very smart today.


Thank you! Victor has got in touch. What's wrong with this country


today? No professionalism. What next? Don't bother to wash or comb


your hair. Another says, it's a sad situation when nothing is important


enough to dress in a certain way. I couldn't take someone seriously if


they dressed too casually. Helen says, we are years behind everyone


as it is, let's get into the 21st-century. To quote Coco Chanel,


dress shabbily and they notice the dress, but dressed impeccably and


they notice the woman. Another says, a friend of mine wanted to become


Prime Minister just so he could make everyone wear hats again! Sean, have


you got a hat? I do have a hat. Andrew, let's bring this back to the


church, because that is why we having this debate. Losing cassocks


and belts and ruffs and someone in the church, that's fair enough,


isn't it? What really matters in the church is the message that is being


delivered to the congregation, and if the church aspires to appeal to a


younger audience, it's make the message


alive to younger audience, and it's not how you dress. Dressing down


does not mean you will attract a younger audience. The important


thing is the message. We are dressing down in court as well. I


feel they should keep traditional dress in court. You don't go to


court for a nice time and to wear jeans. If you are in court it's


because you have committed a crime or you are a witness in a crime.


It's a serious point. Everybody looks the same if they wear a suit


and tie. It is an anonymous look. If you go into a nightclub late at


night, which you shouldn't, and there is a mansion of Mafia people


there, they will be wearing suits, ties or dinner jackets. If I go in


wearing jeans or a T-shirt, I would probably be thrown out. That is


absurd. The other thing with wearing suits is that anyone can do it. It's


like a uniform. Dressing not according to tradition doesn't mean


you have to be shabby or super casual. You are actually putting


more effort in if you are not going with the norm. I don't think we


should take away individuality. Andrew, you look lovely and really


smart, and that is an individual suit. Not a lot of people would wear


that jacket, but you still look lovely. You can look professional


and still be individual. I have to say, you all look wonderful. This is


a bit of a loving! You all look great in your own, unique ways.


Emma, we still have comments coming in from the earlier items. We do. We


talked about rewilding earlier. Robert says, we hear of farmers


being guardians of the landscape, but the fact is that nature would be


a different landscape if it was dominated by woodland. Catholicism -


Liam says that he is no longer a Catholic because of the medieval


ways of thinking. Another says, so sad that religion can still dictate


what a woman does in relation to family. And Ben says, with regard to


jack becoming Mr England as an amputee, what a hunk.


Congratulations, Jack! He is a good-looking guy.


Many thanks to all our guests and you at home


But Emma will be carrying on the conversation online.


Yes - I'll be taking fashion tips from Bill Oddie, and talking to him


Log on to facebook.com/bbc SundayMorningLive


In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole


Download Subtitles