Episode 5 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 5

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The battle between sheep farmers and the conservationists.

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Is it time to "rewild" our countryside?

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We've recreated a hay meadow, and it gives you this fantastic array of

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flowers. Catholic Melinda Gates pledges

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hundreds of millions of pounds to birth control in developing

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countries - and says she's optimistic the Pope might

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change his views on contraception. And we join the first amputee

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to take part in the final The last thing I want is anyone to

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come up to me and say, are you OK, mate? I want to keep up with the

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other guys, I want to win it! And Emma Barnett is here ready

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to let you have your say. You can contact us by

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Facebook and Twitter - don't forget to use the hashtag

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#bbcsml. Or text SML followed

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by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your

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standard message rate. Or email us at

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[email protected] However you choose to get in touch,

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please don't forget to include your name,

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so I can get you involved in our discussions -

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including one about whether we're getting too casual and

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dressing down too much. I've made an effort, but Sean, on

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the other hand, you've got no tie! But I have got a handkerchief!

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This week, the Lake District joined the likes of the Grand Canyon

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and the Great Barrier Reef as it was named

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The decision has been greeted by those fronting the bid

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But the news has also re-ignited a debate about what is the best way

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of preserving the Lakes, and areas like it,

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Samanthi Flanagan has been to Cumbria to find out more.

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From Wordsworth to Beatrix Potter, the breathtaking landscape has

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inspired generations of The Lake District is home to the biggest

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national park in England and England and Wales and it attracts more than

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18 million visitors each year, keen to get a taste of the great outdoors

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amidst its spectacular scenery. There is a rugged and wild beauty,

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but is it wild enough? Some conservationists say that if the

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land was allowed to revert to its natural state, it would be even more

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stunning. The sheep make a which a postcard sight, but not everybody

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agrees. One conservationist believes the grazing by them is damaging to

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the environment and prevents more diverse wildlife from thriving. This

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particular area had a very heavy grazing history, and that changes

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the vegetation. So, this is the thrush, one of the plants which

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sheep really won't eat. This kind of grass is another one which they

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won't eat. But when you have really high numbers of sheep, you tend to

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get down to that kind of vegetation, very structurally simple and very

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few species. William's family has farmed the land here for centuries.

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He believes people like him are a vital part of the ecosystem and

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economy. I've been farming in and around this area all my life, and

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the family has been here for many generations at least five. Our roots

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go well back. We have to manage the land in a way which allows us to get

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a return from it, but at the same time, we're trying not to damage the

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land, because it's not in our interests to do that. We look after

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it in every respect so that it can deliver a commercial return for

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Ross. William rejects claims that the sheep's feeding habits are

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causing problems. In some areas, we have reached the point where it is

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actually old and grazed. We are doing things on traditional lines,

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the way we've always done it. I can't really change it, we just have

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to do it the way we have always done it. David is overseeing the project

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which he believes could hold the key to the Lake District's future. The

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Cumbria Wildlife Trust has transformed an area of poor

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grassland, to this... We've recreated a hay meadow. This is done

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by taking green hay from a hay meadow not very far away, doing the

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soil, spreading the hay, letting the seeds fall out. And it gives you

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this fantastic array of flowers. And for people like William, this is a

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workplace which plays a vital part in supporting the Lake District's

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wider economy. It isn't just about flowers, it's about all of the stuff

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that goes around it, the, which is, the footpaths, the walls, the houses

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of, the very things which make it a very special place. What are the

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difficulties you find with farmers and conservationists working

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together? To some extent, we don't understand what the other ones want.

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And there isn't a great deal of trust between the two. You can move

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quite quickly beyond that mistrust, if you try. Let's work with what

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we've got, people enjoy it, let's try and make it work for everyone.

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Let's see what our panel think, should we stick to farming which has

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been done for generations, or should we allow the countryside to develop.

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First of all, Bill Oddie, when they say the countryside is under threat,

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are they just scaremongering? " I should say that there isn't such a

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thing as a battle. That phrase was used to. And I thought, a lot of the

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commentary on that, although it was a lovely film, did speak in

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generalisations, which doesn't help. When you say at all between

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conservationists and farmers, there needn't be. Some farmers, some

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conservationists, work together really well, not just in the Lake

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District but all over the place. What about the claims from some

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conservationists that farmers are overworking the land, are there some

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who do that? There probably are, as it happens, I don't know the Lake

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District that well. Somebody can correct me, but I don't think of it

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as very, very heavily farmed, as an area. Obviously, it is very hilly

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and so forth. I imagine it is mainly sheep, and most of the, how can we

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put it, degrading of farmland which I've seen, you have to be my age to

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have seen it when it was good, but most of the degrading has actually

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been crop growing, rather than grazing. And there are many regimes

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around nature reserves which involve sheep, for example, and grazing,

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cows, so on and so forth. Is that the picture that you see when you go

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to the Lake District and other areas? Not entirely. I have a great

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deal of affection for the Lake District, I have known the landscape

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since I was a small boy, and there is a great deal of value in the

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cultural landscape. It has been worked for hundreds of years by

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human hands, and that is a really valuable thing to have. But I don't

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think we should pretend that ecological, it's in a fantastic

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condition. 75% of wildlife sites in the Lake District are in

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unfavourable condition, a lot of them are recovering, which is good.

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But I don't necessarily recognised this age of a harmonious

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environment. In Britain as a whole, we are one of the most naturally

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depleted countries in the world. I think we are ranked 189 in the world

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in terms of the state of our ecosystem and biodiversity. And that

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is reflected in landscapes like the lake strict, sadly. That is a pretty

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alarming picture, you are a shepherdess, it is your fault, your

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sheep, and other farmers! We have looked after the land as far back as

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I can remember. Like the film said, we maintain it with our flocks. It's

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traditional, like Bill said, we work with the conservation side of

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things, we have our natural hay meadows, we have our Wood set-aside,

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we don't over grazed. There might be a small amount of overgrazing, in

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fact, some places are under grazed at the moment. For me, it is not

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about that. I think those traditions have gone back, the land is good, it

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is how we always remember it. The farmers, particularly in the hill

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farming world, we really look after our land, because that land feeds

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us, it's our living, and that's where we will be for ever, we will

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continue this. But in the film we saw one field which wasn't grazed,

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and one which was, and it was very different, for wildlife? It's quite

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tiny scenario Myhill farm, I've got a very far small hill farm and I

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set-aside an allotment, a small area of land, in a schema for ground

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nesting birds, so we took the cattle and the sheep off and allowed it to

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go wild. It was quite wonderful. But then it became too wild and the

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ground nesting birds stopped ground nesting. You do want this

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old-fashioned farming system, working alongside conservation. And

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if you do that and take it back to how we found it, as had Stosur, many

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years ago, like my grandparents did, we are not going far wrong. But is

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it asking farmers to much to set-aside land to do that,

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particularly when it becomes economically tight? The economy is

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obviously vital for the farmers. The vitality and the economic returns

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from the land obviously come from ever intensifying farming systems,

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and has to be a balance whereby sustainable farming, sustainable

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economically, as well as ecological, that is the balance that we have to

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try and find. And there are definitely tensions between the two.

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It is wonderful that UNESCO has given the Lake District that

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international, global brand of being right up there as the place to go,

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and it is an opportunity for businesses and farmers and

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conservationists within Lakes to celebrate that brand and raise their

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game, so that it is protected. 1.I really want to make is that that

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living cultural heritage landscape was granted to the trust, and it

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took UNESCO and the Lake District national park 20 years to actually

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find the formula, the prescription by which a living cultural heritage

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landscape... And that has been delivered and borne out by our

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farming community. So, working together. And you have been talking

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-- you are going to be talking to one of the big players?

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You are one of the country's biggest landowners - are you doing enough to

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work with farmers? I think all of us would agree, we can always do more.

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That would be farmers and conservation organisations. But

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we've always had partnership with our farmers as the bedrock of any of

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the progress we've made in the landscapes that we are lucky enough

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to look after. I think just in recent times, the whole debate that

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we've just been listening to, about how we deliver more for farming, and

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more for nature, has helped us come together and have even more

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constructive conversations about how we think our farmers to that kind of

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mission, to get back the natural health of our wider landscapes.

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Perhaps you are working too closely with farmers, then, in the sense

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you're not doing enough to rewild the landscape and getting the

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farmers to make those changes? I don't think you can ever work too

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closely with farmers. They are crucial, we will always have a

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farmed landscape, over 70% of our countryside is farmed and it will

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continue to be so. What we need to do is to continue to work together

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to get the balance right. We have said that already today in the

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discussion. We all agree that we need to do something to put back the

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natural health of our land, the soil, the water, and the

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biodiversity of the habitat. It is an absolute truism that farming

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depends utterly on the health of the natural environment. There is no

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farming industry without it, so it seems to me to be a common agenda.

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But where are you up to on that agenda, how would you describe the

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balance at the moment? I think we have definitely got to a tipping

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point, where over-60s percent of our native species and habitats are in

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decline, we know that. It's not a good picture, so we have to do more

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to get the balance back. At the same time, we've got real threats coming

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towards farming from Brexit, where Common Agricultural Policy, the

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bedrock of much of the finance which supports the farming industry, is

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definitely at risk. Although that sounds threatening, I think it is an

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opportunity to redraw exactly how we create a system that supports

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farmers to have good livelihoods, to stay on the land so that we can

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enjoy the fantastic cultural things that we see in the hills, in the

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lowlands and across our mixed farming areas, and at the same time

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put health back into nature. Patrick Begg, Rural Enterprise Director for

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the National Trust, thank you very much. We have been talking about

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rewilding reports from the Royal Society this weekend, calling for

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the reintroduction of carnivores into areas, and we're talking about

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great Wolves, brown bears... Even if you have not set foot in the

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countryside, it is a bit of an issue, isn't it? I think this is a

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really important dimension which has been reintroduced by this whole

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rewilding debate. It is not just about the headline grabbing

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carnivores. The key thing which it refers to is the presence of what I

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would call his tone species. This is the difference between rewilding and

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what you would call re-naturalisation. There are

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keystone species which drive ecological processes and the

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benefits they have cascade through the ecosystem. Wolves and links are

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examples of that, but it is also things like beavers, pine Martin,

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Wilde bought etc. I'm not saying that we should go into a countryside

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full of Wolves and just unleash them. But potentially, it is an

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element of the conservation toolkit in helping to restore the landscape.

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We're already seeing examples of it. Beavers have successfully been

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reintroduced into area of Scotland, pine Martin, etc.

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When we talk about rewilding, how does that make you feel? Real good!

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I do think it is a silly phrase. The concept behind it? I don't think,

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basically in terms of plants which will attract insects and so on,

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there is usually a planned and eight design behind planting, as you know.

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But I must admit that you have to look at each animal and each

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situation separately. Walls, I can't see that going without a problem. --

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walls. We have sheep farmer here. How comfortable would you feel with

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wolves? Really uncomfortable. The thought of going out onto the fells

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and having wolves. Things like beavers I understand, but not

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predators. So beavers would be fine? Beavers are already there. Wolves,

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links and there's in the Lake District mountains, they are

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naturally going to want to eat, and what would they eat? It would be

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sheep or lambs. It would cause an uproar among the community and fell

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walkers, and it would cause chaos. Rewilding is causing some debate,

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because some are saying it means different things to different

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people. I would support planting trees to help with water run-off,

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but Peter says, do not bring back dangerous animals. The great beauty

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of this country is the general careless way we can roam through it.

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John says, it is a living environment and farming has made it

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what it is. It's not for outsiders to say how it should be. And Rose

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says, just leave it alone. When outsiders try to improve on nature,

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it messes it up. Another says, sheep farming is part of the landscape in

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the Lake District, and to mess around with it is changing nature,

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not helping it. Done, how do we move forward with this? We have to do

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deep polarise the rhetoric of the farmers and conservationists and

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find a middle ground. I would like to say that the middle ground is

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almost there. The damage done through European heritage payments

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that we lived with through the 70s and 80s that did actually cause

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overgrazing and trashing the landscapes, that has been reversed

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by great environmental schemes such as the environment in sensitive

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areas and HLS schemes. That has reversed overgrazing, and with the

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statistics I saw we were back at the sheep numbers we had pre-those HLS

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payments. We are back there, so we can give the landscape is the

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opportunity to heal and celebrate the UNESCO site. I agree that there

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have been great improvements in recent times, and I think there is a

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danger of this becoming pure polemic. What this debate about

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rewilding has introduced is an important debate we should be

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having, but I absolutely agree that there is common ground. There has

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been movement. Farmers are not entirely recalcitrant and

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reactionary. There are farmers who are prepared to work to rough up the

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natural environment and provide more space for the nature to breathe.

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That is the basis for moving forward. There is common ground.

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It's an interesting debate. Thank you very much.

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Catwalk contests like Miss World and Mr World are often associated

:20:14.:20:15.

with the body beautiful - but one man is on a mission

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to change our perception of what that means.

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Jack Eyres lost his leg at the age of 16.

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On Friday night, he made history when he became the first amputee

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to compete in the final of Mr England, a pathway

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Wendy Robbins went to Birmingham to see if Jack would scoop

:20:30.:20:32.

the prize, and to find out how he's overcome the barriers he's faced.

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This is Jack Eyres, personal trainer, model and all-round hunk.

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He also has only one leg. The other was amputated when he was 16. What

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was the condition you had when you were born? It was a deficiency in

:20:57.:21:03.

the lake that meant it didn't develop properly, the muscle

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structure, the bone structure and the joints didn't develop. What did

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that mean as a child? I was different to other people. It

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knocked my confidence. I was different from others. How does that

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affect you? You get singled out. When that happens to a young,

:21:24.:21:27.

vulnerable child, it's difficult. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know

:21:28.:21:32.

how to act or what to do or what the future was going to be. Everything

:21:33.:21:36.

was unknown. Teachers would say, what you want to do when you grow

:21:37.:21:42.

up? And I was like, I've no idea. When I and then came a defining

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moment. When I was 16, I went to have my leg amputated. They offered

:21:55.:22:00.

me lots of treatment. I was introduced to a guy who had had his

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leg amputated, and I thought, maybe this is a good option. With that new

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leg came new confidence. Jack became a fitness trainer and set his sights

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even higher. 2005, I was part of the Paralympic opening ceremony, in

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front of 80,000 people and the Queen, flying 30 foot in the air on

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harnesses. It was all about breaking barriers and saying that you don't

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have to be vulnerable and weak. And I got a taste for the limelight. And

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I was like, what next. What came next was water-skiing, modelling,

:22:42.:22:52.

and other work. And even an advert. It was an advert, it was a take on

:22:53.:23:02.

the old Levi's advert, where you go into a launderette and take your

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clothes off. Now Jack is in the Mr England contest, the first amputee

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to make the finals. When we did the fitness thing today, so many

:23:13.:23:17.

amputees would have shied away from that. It's the first time I had done

:23:18.:23:21.

those exercises, especially in a group. The last thing I want is

:23:22.:23:26.

people to come up to me and say, are you OK, mate? I want to keep up with

:23:27.:23:33.

the other guys and I want to win. To win Mr England, as well as physical

:23:34.:23:38.

fitness, contestants had to compete in tests that include general

:23:39.:23:44.

knowledge, charity work, talents, and basically use confidence. You

:23:45.:23:50.

can guess who I am rooting for. If Jack wins, what an inspiration. Jack

:23:51.:23:57.

has obviously caught the judges' attention, because he wins an early

:23:58.:24:02.

award for popularity. But the big prize is still up for grabs.

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Everyone needs a role model, and I believe that Mr England does that.

:24:09.:24:13.

I'm so glad I won Mr popularity, because it proves to me APPLAUSE It

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proves to me that I'm getting support to do my thing, so thank you

:24:20.:24:25.

so much. Congratulations. It's getting closer

:24:26.:24:30.

to the final result. Jack is feeling the tension. I'm feeling pretty

:24:31.:24:38.

nervous. I'm pretty tired. If you win tonight, what does that mean for

:24:39.:24:43.

you? It means a lot to me. It's such an impressive platform to get my

:24:44.:24:47.

message out there, and tried to become a role model. It would mean

:24:48.:24:52.

an awful lot to me, but I know there's a lot of strong competitors

:24:53.:24:56.

here with some stories as well. We will see what happens. The big

:24:57.:25:08.

moment is here. Mr England 2017... He will represent England at Mr

:25:09.:25:10.

World. It goes to... Jack Eyres! Jack Eyres, you are Mr

:25:11.:25:29.

England 2017. Jack is overwhelmed, and so am I. What a result! What was

:25:30.:25:36.

that moment like when it was announced? Incredible. It took me a

:25:37.:25:40.

little while to understand what he said. And then when you realised it

:25:41.:25:45.

was you? My heart went up ten levels! Oh, man. Relief as well. So

:25:46.:25:52.

much relief. I really, really wanted it. I'm really going to use it. This

:25:53.:25:59.

isn't it now. I'm going to use this platform is so wisely. What does it

:26:00.:26:06.

mean for disabled people? The first amputee Mr England, the first

:26:07.:26:07.

amputee to be going for Mr World. Congratulations to Jack -

:26:08.:26:10.

he's a real inspiration! Still to come on Sunday

:26:11.:26:12.

Morning Live.... What singer Macy Gray decided to buy

:26:13.:26:23.

after she hit the big time. Ideas like really insane things to

:26:24.:26:39.

my house. I had a bronze statue of myself around the house. Yes, and

:26:40.:26:43.

naked statue of yourself around the house! Yellow yes. That was

:26:44.:26:45.

expensive. This week, the Bill

:26:46.:26:48.

and Melinda Gates Foundation, set up by the multi-billionaire

:26:49.:26:50.

and his wife, announced several hundred million pounds' worth

:26:51.:26:53.

of funding for family planning programmes in some of

:26:54.:26:55.

the world's poorest countries. The plan, supported

:26:56.:26:57.

by the British Government, is to reduce unwanted pregnancies

:26:58.:26:59.

and help prevent While the cause may not seem

:27:00.:27:01.

unusual, what is surprising is that Melinda Gates is a Catholic -

:27:02.:27:06.

a church which has long been against the use

:27:07.:27:08.

of any contraception. Melinda says she's "optimistic"

:27:09.:27:11.

the Pope will change his views. We have a shared mission around

:27:12.:27:26.

social justice and anti-poverty, and I think that this Pope sees that if

:27:27.:27:30.

we are going to lift people out of poverty, you have to do the right

:27:31.:27:34.

thing for women. We have agreed at this point to disagree.

:27:35.:27:36.

The Pope shows no sign of fulfilling Melinda Gates' hopes.

:27:37.:27:38.

Should the Catholic Church change its stance on contraception?

:27:39.:27:48.

Obianuju Ekeocha, a Catholic campaigner for the promotion

:27:49.:27:51.

Danielle Spencer, who is an international aid worker.

:27:52.:27:54.

Clare Short, Catholic blogger and writer.

:27:55.:27:55.

And Amy Lavelle, a journalist and feminist.

:27:56.:28:01.

The money being made available will help people control the size of

:28:02.:28:09.

their families. Is that a good step in terms of poverty? I'm sure

:28:10.:28:13.

Melinda Gates means well, but there is an arrogance in what I see is

:28:14.:28:18.

question is not being asked in all this talk about contraception and

:28:19.:28:23.

helping women to space their children is what exactly, when

:28:24.:28:27.

speaking of Africa, what exactly do women want? In most African

:28:28.:28:33.

countries you get defined, as research shows, that African women's

:28:34.:28:39.

desired number of children is actually quite high. So in cultures

:28:40.:28:45.

where people value children or value big families, what are you saying to

:28:46.:28:50.

the women if you continue to push their governments towards the

:28:51.:28:54.

so-called family planning project? This might be indeed an insidious

:28:55.:29:00.

way of moving the agenda of population control. So family

:29:01.:29:05.

planning projects in developing countries are bad? I'm not saying

:29:06.:29:10.

that. Are they western countries forcing their values? Exactly. They

:29:11.:29:15.

are not bad in themselves, but there is a real problem with a multi

:29:16.:29:19.

billionaire from a western country coming in to tell African countries

:29:20.:29:25.

what to do or how to control their population is. Danielle, what do you

:29:26.:29:29.

think? It's an interesting perspective, but action aid is

:29:30.:29:35.

different from the traditional model of NGO work. We work with rights

:29:36.:29:40.

organisations, and we deliver what they ask us to deliver. They are

:29:41.:29:44.

asking us to deliver family planning. In our most recent report

:29:45.:29:48.

we spoke with the women called Evelyn. She risked domestic violence

:29:49.:29:58.

and abuse from her husband in order to take contraception in secret. In

:29:59.:30:03.

the health system in Liberia, where she is from, it was apparent she had

:30:04.:30:08.

to go with her husband in order to receive contraception, and there was

:30:09.:30:12.

a disagreement within that family. Her husband was violent. One in

:30:13.:30:18.

three women experienced sexual or physical violence most likely at the

:30:19.:30:25.

hands of a partner. Reproductive coercion is a real issue. We need to

:30:26.:30:28.

be able to not leave those women behind. We talk about birth control.

:30:29.:30:35.

What about disease? Action aid is really a women's rights

:30:36.:30:39.

organisation, so it is really about choice. If women have the choice,

:30:40.:30:44.

then obviously the spread of disease would go down, but fundamentally, we

:30:45.:30:49.

are not talking about population control or economics, we are talking

:30:50.:30:53.

about women's rights to choose whether to have a child, and that is

:30:54.:30:59.

very difficult for a huge number of women who are in violent

:31:00.:31:00.

relationships. Isn't it about time the Pope changed

:31:01.:31:10.

the Catholic stance on contraception? It is interesting,

:31:11.:31:14.

because whenever we get into this debate, you have got the artificial

:31:15.:31:18.

contraception side saying, this is a women's issue. And two you know

:31:19.:31:22.

what, it's not. The way the Catholic Church approaches it is that this is

:31:23.:31:27.

a couples issue. And this is really important. Artifice or

:31:28.:31:33.

contraception, they say that all of the responsibility is on the woman's

:31:34.:31:36.

shoulders. -- artificial contraception. The Catholic Church

:31:37.:31:41.

says it should be equal responsibility between the husband

:31:42.:31:44.

on the wife. What about when you don't have an equal relationship,

:31:45.:31:48.

where it is an abusive relationship? This is really difficult. Obviously,

:31:49.:31:52.

relationships like that are bad and the woman needs to be put into a

:31:53.:31:57.

safe place. But by giving her contraception, all you are doing is

:31:58.:32:00.

allowing her to remain in that abusive situation. It does not solve

:32:01.:32:04.

the problem. So, you need to be tackling the problem. Family

:32:05.:32:10.

planning, with the Catholic Church, what it teaches is not only about

:32:11.:32:15.

empowering women to understand their physiology and their fertility and

:32:16.:32:20.

how their body Works, but also to educate their husbands as to how the

:32:21.:32:23.

woman's Bodyworks. It is built on the relationship, and the effect it

:32:24.:32:28.

has on the relationship is equally as important. It is coming in with

:32:29.:32:31.

all of these really good, positive things. If it is a fundamental, core

:32:32.:32:37.

value of the Catholic Church, it is asking a bit too much to get it

:32:38.:32:42.

changed? I don't think so, the Pope has been progressive on so many

:32:43.:32:46.

issues, and even on contraception, he has said it is not an absolute

:32:47.:32:55.

sin. He did not say that, he absolutely did not say that. I don't

:32:56.:33:00.

think he did James Wright I saw in a comment he made to reporters, he

:33:01.:33:04.

said it is not an absolute... But I think it is a woman's issue, because

:33:05.:33:10.

yes, it is part of the couple's relationship to be able to decide

:33:11.:33:14.

when and if they get pregnant, but ultimately it is the woman who goes

:33:15.:33:18.

through, it should be the woman who has a bit more control over it. I

:33:19.:33:24.

think it is a woman's choice, especially when you're looking at

:33:25.:33:27.

violence. Actually, the church itself has a huge role to play in

:33:28.:33:32.

talking about women's rights. I've worked with religious leaders from

:33:33.:33:35.

multiple faiths, talking about women's rights and empowering women.

:33:36.:33:42.

In one example, we worked with Evelyn, as an example, and we did

:33:43.:33:45.

actually work with her husband as well. They have negotiated a smaller

:33:46.:33:51.

family as a result. He's on board with the contraception. When we met

:33:52.:33:55.

them in 2012, she wasn't allowed out of the house. Now, he's encouraging

:33:56.:33:59.

her to go out of the house and talk to other women and other men about

:34:00.:34:05.

contraception. We have been talking about religious leaders, and

:34:06.:34:07.

catholic priests are on the front line on this subject.

:34:08.:34:14.

I spoke to Father Paddy McCafferty. What do you say about those this

:34:15.:34:29.

issue? To be honest, it does not come up very often at all. In fact,

:34:30.:34:34.

very rarely. I've been a priest for 28 years and I can nearly count on

:34:35.:34:39.

one hand the number of occasions this has arisen as an issue, as any

:34:40.:34:46.

type of issue at all. I think that is quite interesting just some

:34:47.:34:49.

people might be surprised to learn that. Is what you're saying that

:34:50.:34:53.

there is a kind of turning of a blind eye to this issue, that you

:34:54.:34:57.

let members of your congregation do what they feel they can, and you

:34:58.:35:01.

just don't really talk about it? No. I don't think that's the issue at

:35:02.:35:06.

all. We maintain the teaching. The teaching is a difficult one, and in

:35:07.:35:13.

the modern age, it is a very unpopular one, obviously. And it's a

:35:14.:35:20.

difficult one to explain. But because a thing is difficult, it

:35:21.:35:24.

doesn't mean that we abolish it all return a blind eye to it. The

:35:25.:35:28.

teaching is what it is, and even though it's challenging, even though

:35:29.:35:35.

it demands from people a certain discipline and commitment, I do

:35:36.:35:40.

believe that it is a very valuable teaching, I believe it is a

:35:41.:35:45.

prophetic teaching. Melinda Gates, the philanthropist who has been in

:35:46.:35:49.

the UK this week for a family planning summit, she herself is a

:35:50.:35:53.

catholic, she is hopeful that the Pope will change the Catholic

:35:54.:35:57.

Church's position on contraception - what do you think? No, I don't

:35:58.:36:01.

believe we should change the teaching simply because it's

:36:02.:36:06.

difficult. Obviously, the teaching and the pastoral practice of the

:36:07.:36:13.

Church essentially is informed by compassion for the person, the

:36:14.:36:17.

struggle of people with difficulties. That all being said,

:36:18.:36:22.

the teaching itself is valuable. The teaching I believe is prophetic in

:36:23.:36:33.

modern times. Where there is a very promiscuous attitude towards human

:36:34.:36:35.

sexuality in general, and in particular the whole contraceptive

:36:36.:36:44.

mentality and ideology. I think that the church's teaching is still very

:36:45.:36:48.

valuable and needs to be maintained. Father Paddy McCafferty, thank you

:36:49.:36:54.

so much. Father Paddy McCafferty saying that the church's teaching is

:36:55.:36:59.

valid and needs to be maintained - that's fair enough, isn't it? I

:37:00.:37:04.

think it is a modern world and you need to work with the issues we

:37:05.:37:10.

facing. There are a lot of women, we are not talking about promiscuity,

:37:11.:37:13.

we're talking about sex within a marriage, I personally know women

:37:14.:37:16.

who have had a number of children who have been told they can't have

:37:17.:37:19.

any more without risking their lives. I think you need to be able

:37:20.:37:24.

to address people like that and say, you have a choice, you need to be

:37:25.:37:29.

able to protect yourself and your unborn children as well. Were

:37:30.:37:32.

talking about something from 1968, surely that's out of date? No,

:37:33.:37:38.

actually, Sean, you are basing this on the Western view to human

:37:39.:37:43.

sexuality and to marriage or the attitude towards sex. There is a

:37:44.:37:50.

problem where the Western world, or people within the Catholic Church in

:37:51.:37:53.

the Western world, continue to try to push the agenda, or their

:37:54.:37:59.

viewpoint on a church which is supposed to be universal, which

:38:00.:38:02.

actually, since 1980, Africa has had the most tremendous growth... And a

:38:03.:38:10.

huge amount of poverty. But also, there is a reduction of poverty.

:38:11.:38:13.

There has been a reduction of poverty, in percentage terms of.

:38:14.:38:20.

There are parts of Africa that people don't... Parts of Africa. The

:38:21.:38:26.

problem is that Africa, what we continue to see from news stations,

:38:27.:38:32.

Western media, will be the parts of Africa that seemed to be very weak.

:38:33.:38:37.

Nobody is talking about the way the Africans see the family, how we

:38:38.:38:42.

understand marriage and things like that. But there is a problem when

:38:43.:38:47.

people from the Western world continue to push their worldview on

:38:48.:38:50.

a church which is supposed to be universal. It is a problem. And the

:38:51.:38:57.

church in Africa is a vital, vibrant church, if people didn't like the

:38:58.:39:00.

teachings, then the church would not have been growing as it is. Why

:39:01.:39:08.

would Melinda Gates, a woman who is Western, just because she's wealthy,

:39:09.:39:12.

try to put her worldview on a church which is supposed to be universal.

:39:13.:39:17.

Money people would say that is modern-day colonialism. It is. This

:39:18.:39:24.

one says, the church should not influence government policy on

:39:25.:39:28.

contraception or anything else. This one says, the Catholic Church should

:39:29.:39:31.

be delivering the best teaching to us. It overlooks the role of sex as

:39:32.:39:36.

something which cements relationships together. The

:39:37.:39:39.

prohibition of condom is makes no sense. This one says, the church is

:39:40.:39:43.

well aware that people are using contraception, and I suspect they

:39:44.:39:47.

also understand. This one says, go and look around the world at one of

:39:48.:39:50.

those poor children dying, one after the other, from starvation. The

:39:51.:39:54.

Catholic Church preaches no contraception, why don't you sell

:39:55.:39:57.

your many priceless treasures and feed them? And this one - the

:39:58.:40:01.

teaching will not change, it is time for those who do not want to be

:40:02.:40:04.

catholic to just leave the faith. Strong stuff! Danielle, let's ring

:40:05.:40:14.

this back to Melinda Gates. She says she can agree to disagree with the

:40:15.:40:18.

Pope, but imagine the Pope was able to in the Catholic Church, what

:40:19.:40:22.

would that mean? It would mean an awful lot to many women in the

:40:23.:40:25.

church and outside of the Catholic Church as well. What difference

:40:26.:40:29.

would it make? It would mean that they would have the right to choose.

:40:30.:40:34.

But bringing it back to what's being discussed today, I think also we

:40:35.:40:40.

need to bear in mind that there are 700 million women and girls alive

:40:41.:40:43.

today who married as a child. It is not just about violence or other

:40:44.:40:50.

issues, but children don't have a pelvis which is formed and yet

:40:51.:40:54.

they're marrying, having children and dying. We should fight child

:40:55.:41:04.

marriage, then. But we can't do it just like that. In order to prevent

:41:05.:41:12.

children dying, then... That's a Band-Aid! I will give the last one

:41:13.:41:19.

to Clare... One really important point which nobody has discussed yet

:41:20.:41:24.

is that nobody really understands, nobody here, you clearly don't,

:41:25.:41:26.

you're not a catholic, I don't blame you for that. Melinda Gates says

:41:27.:41:32.

she's a catholic, I don't believe she's a practising. Nobody has

:41:33.:41:35.

explained what the Catholic Church teaching actually is on sex and

:41:36.:41:39.

marriage. There is so much prejudice that we have to put up with as

:41:40.:41:42.

Catholics, because people do not take the time to learn what the

:41:43.:41:47.

proper teaching is and see how it empowers the woman, see how it

:41:48.:41:50.

empowers the marriage and enhances the marriage, and it is a good and

:41:51.:41:57.

beautiful teaching. I've lived the contraception lifestyle, I lived it

:41:58.:42:01.

for many years. I have lived the NFP lifestyle, and I can tell you that

:42:02.:42:06.

there is no comparison. We will end it on that, thank you to all of you

:42:07.:42:08.

on the panel! American jazz and soul singer

:42:09.:42:15.

Macy Gray hit the big time after releasing her hit

:42:16.:42:18.

single I Try in 1999. Instead of being the making of her,

:42:19.:42:20.

the resulting fame almost destroyed her,

:42:21.:42:23.

as she turned to drugs Now back on tour in Europe

:42:24.:42:25.

and recording new material, Macy talked to Nihal Arthanayake

:42:26.:42:28.

about her journey to the top and # And I may seem all right

:42:29.:42:31.

and smile when you leave I'm intrigued to know about Ohio,

:42:32.:42:57.

you spent your formative years. It is the kind of place where your dad

:42:58.:43:01.

has two jobs, everybody has a bunch of kids and... It is like an

:43:02.:43:06.

all-American city. Did you grow up in largely an African-American

:43:07.:43:12.

environment? Was it mixed? It was very separated, not the point of

:43:13.:43:15.

people hating each other, it was just very like a... Does that mean

:43:16.:43:20.

you were quite shielded from any racism when you were growing up?

:43:21.:43:30.

There was a lot of incidents, the way people treat you or the way they

:43:31.:43:35.

look at you all the way they shake your hand. You don't have to get

:43:36.:43:39.

caught up in it, it's just a there. For yourself, your voice,

:43:40.:43:47.

everything, feeling different, it became in your music career a major

:43:48.:43:51.

bonus, but in life growing up, it must have been quite difficult? It

:43:52.:43:57.

was awful. I was always really awkward and never quite comfortable

:43:58.:44:03.

with myself. I'm still a little bit. Just to be completely OK with who

:44:04.:44:07.

you are, that must be a great state, because I can't imagine what that's

:44:08.:44:12.

like. Without your vulnerabilities, you would never have been able to

:44:13.:44:18.

make the music? There is always a thing, if you want to be successful,

:44:19.:44:23.

I think you have to have something lacking, because you're looking for

:44:24.:44:26.

something to fill it up. Maybe it will fill it up but it probably

:44:27.:44:32.

won't. But you're definitely trying to prove something and you go after

:44:33.:44:33.

the big-time. # I play it off, but

:44:34.:44:40.

I'm dreaming of you What was it like when you realised

:44:41.:44:52.

you were in the eye of this storm, with a millions of sales?

:44:53.:45:00.

# Though I try to hide it, it's clear

:45:01.:45:08.

Well, it gives you a lot more confidence because you have people

:45:09.:45:13.

coming to get your picture and your autograph. That builds you up, I

:45:14.:45:16.

don't care what anybody says, that's nice. But when did you first

:45:17.:45:32.

realise, I've got money? If you can spend it and it keeps coming, it's

:45:33.:45:37.

really nice. You recommended! I recommend it highly! If only! What

:45:38.:45:43.

is the most extravagant thing you did, that do look back on and think,

:45:44.:45:47.

what were you thinking? I just did really stupid stuff. I

:45:48.:45:56.

did really insane things to my house. I had a bronze statue of

:45:57.:46:05.

myself at my house. A naked statue. Yes. Macy, it's well documented that

:46:06.:46:10.

you had quite a party lifestyle, involving drink and drugs. How did

:46:11.:46:16.

you get away from that? Vanity. I looked at myself in the mirror one

:46:17.:46:21.

day and I looked horrible. And I quit. Is it that straightforward?

:46:22.:46:28.

Yes. I was still in my early 30s and I had bags under my eyes, and I was

:46:29.:46:34.

waking up with nosebleeds, and I was really, really skinny. The thing

:46:35.:46:38.

that people don't realise about, when you are taking substances, is

:46:39.:46:44.

you feel awful. You might be partying, but you don't feel good.

:46:45.:46:55.

# We had such a good time # I thought you'd call me... There

:46:56.:47:02.

is so much conversation these days about mental health issues. You've

:47:03.:47:05.

been through those situations yourself. What helps you? I have

:47:06.:47:11.

kids. They do get you out of yourself. It's something you just

:47:12.:47:16.

get through. There's no like formula or road map. You just get through

:47:17.:47:21.

it. You just wait it out. Is safe to any part of that road map? Yes. I've

:47:22.:47:29.

always had a really great relationship with God. My mother

:47:30.:47:32.

used to take me to church every Sunday. I used to like jumping in

:47:33.:47:39.

the mud so I couldn't go to church, because you can't go with your dress

:47:40.:47:43.

all messed up. So when did faith become your choice? I think I was

:47:44.:47:48.

about 12. I remember looking up at the sky. The sun was setting, so

:47:49.:47:53.

there was a layer of purple, and on top of that there was orange, and

:47:54.:47:58.

then it was light blue, and on top of that it was dark blue, and that

:47:59.:48:02.

was when I knew there was someone up there. It was obvious to me that

:48:03.:48:08.

someone was making stuff, drawing. It looked so created to me. Being

:48:09.:48:14.

back on the road, how does it feel? It's great. I love playing live. The

:48:15.:48:21.

stage, you know, I'm queen up there. I love playing on the stage. And

:48:22.:48:30.

tell me about the new album. All you be, you need.

:48:31.:48:38.

# Stop, drop... It's a really good body of work, and

:48:39.:48:43.

I'm just at the point of putting it all together and just making it have

:48:44.:48:48.

a point. So if you're going to be here, be used.

:48:49.:48:51.

Macy Gray - still got that fabulous husky voice.

:48:52.:48:53.

Now, are you chilling out in your weekend gear?

:48:54.:48:56.

If so, you're in good company,

:48:57.:48:57.

because the Church of England is in the process of loosening

:48:58.:49:00.

Instead of formal robes for services, clergy will be given

:49:01.:49:03.

The more laid back approach is evident elsewhere too.

:49:04.:49:08.

Male MPs have been told they no longer need to wear a tie

:49:09.:49:11.

Away from parliament, dress codes and conventions have

:49:12.:49:23.

I noticed yesterday, Sir, that a member was allowed to ask a question

:49:24.:49:29.

in the chamber without wearing a tie. I have no particular view on

:49:30.:49:34.

that, but have the rules on that changed, Sir? It seems to me that as

:49:35.:49:40.

long as a member of rise in the house in what might be thought to be

:49:41.:49:45.

businesslike attire, the question of whether or not that member is

:49:46.:49:50.

wearing a tie is not absolutely front and centre stage. So am I

:49:51.:49:56.

minded not to call a member simply because that member is not wearing a

:49:57.:49:59.

tie, no. Away from parliament,

:50:00.:50:03.

dress codes and conventions have certainly relaxed over the years

:50:04.:50:04.

in all sorts of professions. So as doctors, teachers and city

:50:05.:50:08.

gents all go more casual is that a good thing -

:50:09.:50:10.

or are we dressing down too much? Joining the panel now

:50:11.:50:13.

are Andrew Ramroop OBE, a master tailor working

:50:14.:50:15.

on Savile Row, Laura Puddy,

:50:16.:50:17.

Style Editor for Heat magazine, Luisa Zissman, businesswoman

:50:18.:50:19.

and TV personality, We're becoming far more

:50:20.:50:20.

casual in our dress. As a style editor,

:50:21.:50:32.

does that bother you? Not at all. I don't think dressing

:50:33.:50:42.

down necessarily means dressing scruffily. You can look very smart

:50:43.:50:48.

in business smart casual attire. It's very subjective. As long as you

:50:49.:50:52.

are dressing appropriately for where you are and where you need to be,

:50:53.:50:55.

there's not a problem in dressing down. Andrew, there is a change in

:50:56.:51:01.

times. I notice you haven't got a tie on. I'm projecting the image of

:51:02.:51:07.

a casual Sunday morning! Does it worry you that things are changing?

:51:08.:51:15.

It doesn't worry me so much, but I think there has been some

:51:16.:51:18.

relaxation. The subject of the tie was raised a few years ago when the

:51:19.:51:22.

London Chamber of Commerce decided that their members did not need wear

:51:23.:51:27.

ties to come into their offices, or join the membership, and at that

:51:28.:51:31.

time there was a lot of confusion in the city as to whether one should

:51:32.:51:35.

dress up or dress down for business. You would dress for business to meet

:51:36.:51:39.

your client, and the client would dress down. So the next time, your

:51:40.:51:44.

client would dress up and you would dress down. So there was a lot of

:51:45.:51:49.

confusion and no uniformity. But if there is an aspect of dressing in a

:51:50.:51:55.

suit but not necessarily a tie... So if Bill turned up for a business

:51:56.:52:00.

meeting dressed like that, how would you feel? It's horses for courses. I

:52:01.:52:06.

wouldn't get in. I have been thrown out of some of the very best hotels

:52:07.:52:10.

and restaurants in my time, and I went to the palace to get my oh be

:52:11.:52:15.

with a Hawaiian shirt on. Nobody complained. The Queen didn't say,

:52:16.:52:22.

I'm not going to give it to him! But everybody thinks you're supposed to

:52:23.:52:26.

wear tales, top hat and everything, but you don't have too. Bill, it's

:52:27.:52:40.

what you feel comfortable in that is what really matters. I don't think

:52:41.:52:45.

it is. I'm not sure it is, because Thais are incredibly uncomfortable.

:52:46.:52:53.

I cannot wear a tie. I do not have a tie. I don't possess one. Talking to

:52:54.:52:59.

some friends last night, we said, why does anybody what is it for? It

:53:00.:53:09.

can keep you warm. Keep you warm? Let's bring Louisa in. They wouldn't

:53:10.:53:19.

have let me on their looking scruffy. They monitor your clothes

:53:20.:53:25.

every morning on it. That is production, not Lord Sugar, but they

:53:26.:53:28.

did tell a couple of the girls to get changed because what they were

:53:29.:53:32.

wearing was not appropriate. I don't think smart casual needs to be

:53:33.:53:38.

scruffy. We are confusing the two things. I think you need to be

:53:39.:53:44.

presentable for work. I wouldn't employ some people if they came to

:53:45.:53:49.

me and I didn't feel they were dressed appropriately for work. It

:53:50.:53:53.

depends what business you are in. You work in the media, so you are

:53:54.:53:59.

fine wearing jeans, flat shoes, cardigan or an oversize jumper.

:54:00.:54:03.

Sometimes I wouldn't want my staff facing clients if they were in jeans

:54:04.:54:08.

and looking scruffy. I'm not saying that women need is a and heels, but

:54:09.:54:13.

you need to look professional for the job you are doing. And in

:54:14.:54:18.

Parliament, that means wearing a tie. Emma looks very smart today.

:54:19.:54:26.

Thank you! Victor has got in touch. What's wrong with this country

:54:27.:54:31.

today? No professionalism. What next? Don't bother to wash or comb

:54:32.:54:36.

your hair. Another says, it's a sad situation when nothing is important

:54:37.:54:41.

enough to dress in a certain way. I couldn't take someone seriously if

:54:42.:54:46.

they dressed too casually. Helen says, we are years behind everyone

:54:47.:54:52.

as it is, let's get into the 21st-century. To quote Coco Chanel,

:54:53.:54:58.

dress shabbily and they notice the dress, but dressed impeccably and

:54:59.:55:03.

they notice the woman. Another says, a friend of mine wanted to become

:55:04.:55:07.

Prime Minister just so he could make everyone wear hats again! Sean, have

:55:08.:55:13.

you got a hat? I do have a hat. Andrew, let's bring this back to the

:55:14.:55:18.

church, because that is why we having this debate. Losing cassocks

:55:19.:55:23.

and belts and ruffs and someone in the church, that's fair enough,

:55:24.:55:27.

isn't it? What really matters in the church is the message that is being

:55:28.:55:32.

delivered to the congregation, and if the church aspires to appeal to a

:55:33.:55:37.

younger audience, it's make the message

:55:38.:55:49.

alive to younger audience, and it's not how you dress. Dressing down

:55:50.:55:52.

does not mean you will attract a younger audience. The important

:55:53.:55:55.

thing is the message. We are dressing down in court as well. I

:55:56.:55:57.

feel they should keep traditional dress in court. You don't go to

:55:58.:56:01.

court for a nice time and to wear jeans. If you are in court it's

:56:02.:56:04.

because you have committed a crime or you are a witness in a crime.

:56:05.:56:09.

It's a serious point. Everybody looks the same if they wear a suit

:56:10.:56:15.

and tie. It is an anonymous look. If you go into a nightclub late at

:56:16.:56:20.

night, which you shouldn't, and there is a mansion of Mafia people

:56:21.:56:31.

there, they will be wearing suits, ties or dinner jackets. If I go in

:56:32.:56:34.

wearing jeans or a T-shirt, I would probably be thrown out. That is

:56:35.:56:37.

absurd. The other thing with wearing suits is that anyone can do it. It's

:56:38.:56:42.

like a uniform. Dressing not according to tradition doesn't mean

:56:43.:56:46.

you have to be shabby or super casual. You are actually putting

:56:47.:56:50.

more effort in if you are not going with the norm. I don't think we

:56:51.:56:55.

should take away individuality. Andrew, you look lovely and really

:56:56.:57:00.

smart, and that is an individual suit. Not a lot of people would wear

:57:01.:57:04.

that jacket, but you still look lovely. You can look professional

:57:05.:57:09.

and still be individual. I have to say, you all look wonderful. This is

:57:10.:57:14.

a bit of a loving! You all look great in your own, unique ways.

:57:15.:57:22.

Emma, we still have comments coming in from the earlier items. We do. We

:57:23.:57:27.

talked about rewilding earlier. Robert says, we hear of farmers

:57:28.:57:32.

being guardians of the landscape, but the fact is that nature would be

:57:33.:57:37.

a different landscape if it was dominated by woodland. Catholicism -

:57:38.:57:43.

Liam says that he is no longer a Catholic because of the medieval

:57:44.:57:48.

ways of thinking. Another says, so sad that religion can still dictate

:57:49.:57:53.

what a woman does in relation to family. And Ben says, with regard to

:57:54.:58:00.

jack becoming Mr England as an amputee, what a hunk.

:58:01.:58:05.

Congratulations, Jack! He is a good-looking guy.

:58:06.:58:07.

Many thanks to all our guests and you at home

:58:08.:58:10.

But Emma will be carrying on the conversation online.

:58:11.:58:14.

Yes - I'll be taking fashion tips from Bill Oddie, and talking to him

:58:15.:58:17.

Log on to facebook.com/bbc SundayMorningLive

:58:18.:58:28.

In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole

:58:29.:58:34.

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