Episode 5 Sunday Morning Live

The battle between sheep farmers and the conservationists.

Is it time to "rewild" our countryside?

We've recreated a hay meadow, and it gives you this fantastic array of

flowers. Catholic Melinda Gates pledges

hundreds of millions of pounds to birth control in developing

countries - and says she's optimistic the Pope might

change his views on contraception. And we join the first amputee

to take part in the final The last thing I want is anyone to

come up to me and say, are you OK, mate? I want to keep up with the

other guys, I want to win it! And Emma Barnett is here ready

to let you have your say. You can contact us by

Facebook and Twitter - don't forget to use the hashtag

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[email protected]. However you choose to get in touch,

please don't forget to include your name,

so I can get you involved in our discussions -

including one about whether we're getting too casual and

dressing down too much. I've made an effort, but Sean, on

the other hand, you've got no tie! But I have got a handkerchief!

This week, the Lake District joined the likes of the Grand Canyon

and the Great Barrier Reef as it was named

The decision has been greeted by those fronting the bid

But the news has also re-ignited a debate about what is the best way

of preserving the Lakes, and areas like it,

Samanthi Flanagan has been to Cumbria to find out more.

From Wordsworth to Beatrix Potter, the breathtaking landscape has

inspired generations of The Lake District is home to the biggest

national park in England and England and Wales and it attracts more than

18 million visitors each year, keen to get a taste of the great outdoors

amidst its spectacular scenery. There is a rugged and wild beauty,

but is it wild enough? Some conservationists say that if the

land was allowed to revert to its natural state, it would be even more

stunning. The sheep make a which a postcard sight, but not everybody

agrees. One conservationist believes the grazing by them is damaging to

the environment and prevents more diverse wildlife from thriving. This

particular area had a very heavy grazing history, and that changes

the vegetation. So, this is the thrush, one of the plants which

sheep really won't eat. This kind of grass is another one which they

won't eat. But when you have really high numbers of sheep, you tend to

get down to that kind of vegetation, very structurally simple and very

few species. William's family has farmed the land here for centuries.

He believes people like him are a vital part of the ecosystem and

economy. I've been farming in and around this area all my life, and

the family has been here for many generations at least five. Our roots

go well back. We have to manage the land in a way which allows us to get

a return from it, but at the same time, we're trying not to damage the

land, because it's not in our interests to do that. We look after

it in every respect so that it can deliver a commercial return for

Ross. William rejects claims that the sheep's feeding habits are

causing problems. In some areas, we have reached the point where it is

actually old and grazed. We are doing things on traditional lines,

the way we've always done it. I can't really change it, we just have

to do it the way we have always done it. David is overseeing the project

which he believes could hold the key to the Lake District's future. The

Cumbria Wildlife Trust has transformed an area of poor

grassland, to this... We've recreated a hay meadow. This is done

by taking green hay from a hay meadow not very far away, doing the

soil, spreading the hay, letting the seeds fall out. And it gives you

this fantastic array of flowers. And for people like William, this is a

workplace which plays a vital part in supporting the Lake District's

wider economy. It isn't just about flowers, it's about all of the stuff

that goes around it, the, which is, the footpaths, the walls, the houses

of, the very things which make it a very special place. What are the

difficulties you find with farmers and conservationists working

together? To some extent, we don't understand what the other ones want.

And there isn't a great deal of trust between the two. You can move

quite quickly beyond that mistrust, if you try. Let's work with what

we've got, people enjoy it, let's try and make it work for everyone.

Let's see what our panel think, should we stick to farming which has

been done for generations, or should we allow the countryside to develop.

First of all, Bill Oddie, when they say the countryside is under threat,

are they just scaremongering? " I should say that there isn't such a

thing as a battle. That phrase was used to. And I thought, a lot of the

commentary on that, although it was a lovely film, did speak in

generalisations, which doesn't help. When you say at all between

conservationists and farmers, there needn't be. Some farmers, some

conservationists, work together really well, not just in the Lake

District but all over the place. What about the claims from some

conservationists that farmers are overworking the land, are there some

who do that? There probably are, as it happens, I don't know the Lake

District that well. Somebody can correct me, but I don't think of it

as very, very heavily farmed, as an area. Obviously, it is very hilly

and so forth. I imagine it is mainly sheep, and most of the, how can we

put it, degrading of farmland which I've seen, you have to be my age to

have seen it when it was good, but most of the degrading has actually

been crop growing, rather than grazing. And there are many regimes

around nature reserves which involve sheep, for example, and grazing,

cows, so on and so forth. Is that the picture that you see when you go

to the Lake District and other areas? Not entirely. I have a great

deal of affection for the Lake District, I have known the landscape

since I was a small boy, and there is a great deal of value in the

cultural landscape. It has been worked for hundreds of years by

human hands, and that is a really valuable thing to have. But I don't

think we should pretend that ecological, it's in a fantastic

condition. 75% of wildlife sites in the Lake District are in

unfavourable condition, a lot of them are recovering, which is good.

But I don't necessarily recognised this age of a harmonious

environment. In Britain as a whole, we are one of the most naturally

depleted countries in the world. I think we are ranked 189 in the world

in terms of the state of our ecosystem and biodiversity. And that

is reflected in landscapes like the lake strict, sadly. That is a pretty

alarming picture, you are a shepherdess, it is your fault, your

sheep, and other farmers! We have looked after the land as far back as

I can remember. Like the film said, we maintain it with our flocks. It's

traditional, like Bill said, we work with the conservation side of

things, we have our natural hay meadows, we have our Wood set-aside,

we don't over grazed. There might be a small amount of overgrazing, in

fact, some places are under grazed at the moment. For me, it is not

about that. I think those traditions have gone back, the land is good, it

is how we always remember it. The farmers, particularly in the hill

farming world, we really look after our land, because that land feeds

us, it's our living, and that's where we will be for ever, we will

continue this. But in the film we saw one field which wasn't grazed,

and one which was, and it was very different, for wildlife? It's quite

tiny scenario Myhill farm, I've got a very far small hill farm and I

set-aside an allotment, a small area of land, in a schema for ground

nesting birds, so we took the cattle and the sheep off and allowed it to

go wild. It was quite wonderful. But then it became too wild and the

ground nesting birds stopped ground nesting. You do want this

old-fashioned farming system, working alongside conservation. And

if you do that and take it back to how we found it, as had Stosur, many

years ago, like my grandparents did, we are not going far wrong. But is

it asking farmers to much to set-aside land to do that,

particularly when it becomes economically tight? The economy is

obviously vital for the farmers. The vitality and the economic returns

from the land obviously come from ever intensifying farming systems,

and has to be a balance whereby sustainable farming, sustainable

economically, as well as ecological, that is the balance that we have to

try and find. And there are definitely tensions between the two.

It is wonderful that UNESCO has given the Lake District that

international, global brand of being right up there as the place to go,

and it is an opportunity for businesses and farmers and

conservationists within Lakes to celebrate that brand and raise their

game, so that it is protected. 1.I really want to make is that that

living cultural heritage landscape was granted to the trust, and it

took UNESCO and the Lake District national park 20 years to actually

find the formula, the prescription by which a living cultural heritage

landscape... And that has been delivered and borne out by our

farming community. So, working together. And you have been talking

-- you are going to be talking to one of the big players?

You are one of the country's biggest landowners - are you doing enough to

work with farmers? I think all of us would agree, we can always do more.

That would be farmers and conservation organisations. But

we've always had partnership with our farmers as the bedrock of any of

the progress we've made in the landscapes that we are lucky enough

to look after. I think just in recent times, the whole debate that

we've just been listening to, about how we deliver more for farming, and

more for nature, has helped us come together and have even more

constructive conversations about how we think our farmers to that kind of

mission, to get back the natural health of our wider landscapes.

Perhaps you are working too closely with farmers, then, in the sense

you're not doing enough to rewild the landscape and getting the

farmers to make those changes? I don't think you can ever work too

closely with farmers. They are crucial, we will always have a

farmed landscape, over 70% of our countryside is farmed and it will

continue to be so. What we need to do is to continue to work together

to get the balance right. We have said that already today in the

discussion. We all agree that we need to do something to put back the

natural health of our land, the soil, the water, and the

biodiversity of the habitat. It is an absolute truism that farming

depends utterly on the health of the natural environment. There is no

farming industry without it, so it seems to me to be a common agenda.

But where are you up to on that agenda, how would you describe the

balance at the moment? I think we have definitely got to a tipping

point, where over-60s percent of our native species and habitats are in

decline, we know that. It's not a good picture, so we have to do more

to get the balance back. At the same time, we've got real threats coming

towards farming from Brexit, where Common Agricultural Policy, the

bedrock of much of the finance which supports the farming industry, is

definitely at risk. Although that sounds threatening, I think it is an

opportunity to redraw exactly how we create a system that supports

farmers to have good livelihoods, to stay on the land so that we can

enjoy the fantastic cultural things that we see in the hills, in the

lowlands and across our mixed farming areas, and at the same time

put health back into nature. Patrick Begg, Rural Enterprise Director for

the National Trust, thank you very much. We have been talking about

rewilding reports from the Royal Society this weekend, calling for

the reintroduction of carnivores into areas, and we're talking about

great Wolves, brown bears... Even if you have not set foot in the

countryside, it is a bit of an issue, isn't it? I think this is a

really important dimension which has been reintroduced by this whole

rewilding debate. It is not just about the headline grabbing

carnivores. The key thing which it refers to is the presence of what I

would call his tone species. This is the difference between rewilding and

what you would call re-naturalisation. There are

keystone species which drive ecological processes and the

benefits they have cascade through the ecosystem. Wolves and links are

examples of that, but it is also things like beavers, pine Martin,

Wilde bought etc. I'm not saying that we should go into a countryside

full of Wolves and just unleash them. But potentially, it is an

element of the conservation toolkit in helping to restore the landscape.

We're already seeing examples of it. Beavers have successfully been

reintroduced into area of Scotland, pine Martin, etc.

When we talk about rewilding, how does that make you feel? Real good!

I do think it is a silly phrase. The concept behind it? I don't think,

basically in terms of plants which will attract insects and so on,

there is usually a planned and eight design behind planting, as you know.

But I must admit that you have to look at each animal and each

situation separately. Walls, I can't see that going without a problem. --

walls. We have sheep farmer here. How comfortable would you feel with

wolves? Really uncomfortable. The thought of going out onto the fells

and having wolves. Things like beavers I understand, but not

predators. So beavers would be fine? Beavers are already there. Wolves,

links and there's in the Lake District mountains, they are

naturally going to want to eat, and what would they eat? It would be

sheep or lambs. It would cause an uproar among the community and fell

walkers, and it would cause chaos. Rewilding is causing some debate,

because some are saying it means different things to different

people. I would support planting trees to help with water run-off,

but Peter says, do not bring back dangerous animals. The great beauty

of this country is the general careless way we can roam through it.

John says, it is a living environment and farming has made it

what it is. It's not for outsiders to say how it should be. And Rose

says, just leave it alone. When outsiders try to improve on nature,

it messes it up. Another says, sheep farming is part of the landscape in

the Lake District, and to mess around with it is changing nature,

not helping it. Done, how do we move forward with this? We have to do

deep polarise the rhetoric of the farmers and conservationists and

find a middle ground. I would like to say that the middle ground is

almost there. The damage done through European heritage payments

that we lived with through the 70s and 80s that did actually cause

overgrazing and trashing the landscapes, that has been reversed

by great environmental schemes such as the environment in sensitive

areas and HLS schemes. That has reversed overgrazing, and with the

statistics I saw we were back at the sheep numbers we had pre-those HLS

payments. We are back there, so we can give the landscape is the

opportunity to heal and celebrate the UNESCO site. I agree that there

have been great improvements in recent times, and I think there is a

danger of this becoming pure polemic. What this debate about

rewilding has introduced is an important debate we should be

having, but I absolutely agree that there is common ground. There has

been movement. Farmers are not entirely recalcitrant and

reactionary. There are farmers who are prepared to work to rough up the

natural environment and provide more space for the nature to breathe.

That is the basis for moving forward. There is common ground.

It's an interesting debate. Thank you very much.

Catwalk contests like Miss World and Mr World are often associated

with the body beautiful - but one man is on a mission

to change our perception of what that means.

Jack Eyres lost his leg at the age of 16.

On Friday night, he made history when he became the first amputee

to compete in the final of Mr England, a pathway

Wendy Robbins went to Birmingham to see if Jack would scoop

the prize, and to find out how he's overcome the barriers he's faced.

This is Jack Eyres, personal trainer, model and all-round hunk.

He also has only one leg. The other was amputated when he was 16. What

was the condition you had when you were born? It was a deficiency in

the lake that meant it didn't develop properly, the muscle

structure, the bone structure and the joints didn't develop. What did

that mean as a child? I was different to other people. It

knocked my confidence. I was different from others. How does that

affect you? You get singled out. When that happens to a young,

vulnerable child, it's difficult. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know

how to act or what to do or what the future was going to be. Everything

was unknown. Teachers would say, what you want to do when you grow

up? And I was like, I've no idea. When I and then came a defining

moment. When I was 16, I went to have my leg amputated. They offered

me lots of treatment. I was introduced to a guy who had had his

leg amputated, and I thought, maybe this is a good option. With that new

leg came new confidence. Jack became a fitness trainer and set his sights

even higher. 2005, I was part of the Paralympic opening ceremony, in

front of 80,000 people and the Queen, flying 30 foot in the air on

harnesses. It was all about breaking barriers and saying that you don't

have to be vulnerable and weak. And I got a taste for the limelight. And

I was like, what next. What came next was water-skiing, modelling,

and other work. And even an advert. It was an advert, it was a take on

the old Levi's advert, where you go into a launderette and take your

clothes off. Now Jack is in the Mr England contest, the first amputee

to make the finals. When we did the fitness thing today, so many

amputees would have shied away from that. It's the first time I had done

those exercises, especially in a group. The last thing I want is

people to come up to me and say, are you OK, mate? I want to keep up with

the other guys and I want to win. To win Mr England, as well as physical

fitness, contestants had to compete in tests that include general

knowledge, charity work, talents, and basically use confidence. You

can guess who I am rooting for. If Jack wins, what an inspiration. Jack

has obviously caught the judges' attention, because he wins an early

award for popularity. But the big prize is still up for grabs.

Everyone needs a role model, and I believe that Mr England does that.

I'm so glad I won Mr popularity, because it proves to me APPLAUSE It

proves to me that I'm getting support to do my thing, so thank you

so much. Congratulations. It's getting closer

to the final result. Jack is feeling the tension. I'm feeling pretty

nervous. I'm pretty tired. If you win tonight, what does that mean for

you? It means a lot to me. It's such an impressive platform to get my

message out there, and tried to become a role model. It would mean

an awful lot to me, but I know there's a lot of strong competitors

here with some stories as well. We will see what happens. The big

moment is here. Mr England 2017... He will represent England at Mr

World. It goes to... Jack Eyres! Jack Eyres, you are Mr

England 2017. Jack is overwhelmed, and so am I. What a result! What was

that moment like when it was announced? Incredible. It took me a

little while to understand what he said. And then when you realised it

was you? My heart went up ten levels! Oh, man. Relief as well. So

much relief. I really, really wanted it. I'm really going to use it. This

isn't it now. I'm going to use this platform is so wisely. What does it

mean for disabled people? The first amputee Mr England, the first

amputee to be going for Mr World. Congratulations to Jack -

he's a real inspiration! Still to come on Sunday

Morning Live.... What singer Macy Gray decided to buy

after she hit the big time. Ideas like really insane things to

my house. I had a bronze statue of myself around the house. Yes, and

naked statue of yourself around the house! Yellow yes. That was

expensive. This week, the Bill

and Melinda Gates Foundation, set up by the multi-billionaire

and his wife, announced several hundred million pounds' worth

of funding for family planning programmes in some of

the world's poorest countries. The plan, supported

by the British Government, is to reduce unwanted pregnancies

and help prevent While the cause may not seem

unusual, what is surprising is that Melinda Gates is a Catholic -

a church which has long been against the use

of any contraception. Melinda says she's "optimistic"

the Pope will change his views. We have a shared mission around

social justice and anti-poverty, and I think that this Pope sees that if

we are going to lift people out of poverty, you have to do the right

thing for women. We have agreed at this point to disagree.

The Pope shows no sign of fulfilling Melinda Gates' hopes.

Should the Catholic Church change its stance on contraception?

Obianuju Ekeocha, a Catholic campaigner for the promotion

Danielle Spencer, who is an international aid worker.

Clare Short, Catholic blogger and writer.

And Amy Lavelle, a journalist and feminist.

The money being made available will help people control the size of

their families. Is that a good step in terms of poverty? I'm sure

Melinda Gates means well, but there is an arrogance in what I see is

question is not being asked in all this talk about contraception and

helping women to space their children is what exactly, when

speaking of Africa, what exactly do women want? In most African

countries you get defined, as research shows, that African women's

desired number of children is actually quite high. So in cultures

where people value children or value big families, what are you saying to

the women if you continue to push their governments towards the

so-called family planning project? This might be indeed an insidious

way of moving the agenda of population control. So family

planning projects in developing countries are bad? I'm not saying

that. Are they western countries forcing their values? Exactly. They

are not bad in themselves, but there is a real problem with a multi

billionaire from a western country coming in to tell African countries

what to do or how to control their population is. Danielle, what do you

think? It's an interesting perspective, but action aid is

different from the traditional model of NGO work. We work with rights

organisations, and we deliver what they ask us to deliver. They are

asking us to deliver family planning. In our most recent report

we spoke with the women called Evelyn. She risked domestic violence

and abuse from her husband in order to take contraception in secret. In

the health system in Liberia, where she is from, it was apparent she had

to go with her husband in order to receive contraception, and there was

a disagreement within that family. Her husband was violent. One in

three women experienced sexual or physical violence most likely at the

hands of a partner. Reproductive coercion is a real issue. We need to

be able to not leave those women behind. We talk about birth control.

What about disease? Action aid is really a women's rights

organisation, so it is really about choice. If women have the choice,

then obviously the spread of disease would go down, but fundamentally, we

are not talking about population control or economics, we are talking

about women's rights to choose whether to have a child, and that is

very difficult for a huge number of women who are in violent

relationships. Isn't it about time the Pope changed

the Catholic stance on contraception? It is interesting,

because whenever we get into this debate, you have got the artificial

contraception side saying, this is a women's issue. And two you know

what, it's not. The way the Catholic Church approaches it is that this is

a couples issue. And this is really important. Artifice or

contraception, they say that all of the responsibility is on the woman's

shoulders. -- artificial contraception. The Catholic Church

says it should be equal responsibility between the husband

on the wife. What about when you don't have an equal relationship,

where it is an abusive relationship? This is really difficult. Obviously,

relationships like that are bad and the woman needs to be put into a

safe place. But by giving her contraception, all you are doing is

allowing her to remain in that abusive situation. It does not solve

the problem. So, you need to be tackling the problem. Family

planning, with the Catholic Church, what it teaches is not only about

empowering women to understand their physiology and their fertility and

how their body Works, but also to educate their husbands as to how the

woman's Bodyworks. It is built on the relationship, and the effect it

has on the relationship is equally as important. It is coming in with

all of these really good, positive things. If it is a fundamental, core

value of the Catholic Church, it is asking a bit too much to get it

changed? I don't think so, the Pope has been progressive on so many

issues, and even on contraception, he has said it is not an absolute

sin. He did not say that, he absolutely did not say that. I don't

think he did James Wright I saw in a comment he made to reporters, he

said it is not an absolute... But I think it is a woman's issue, because

yes, it is part of the couple's relationship to be able to decide

when and if they get pregnant, but ultimately it is the woman who goes

through, it should be the woman who has a bit more control over it. I

think it is a woman's choice, especially when you're looking at

violence. Actually, the church itself has a huge role to play in

talking about women's rights. I've worked with religious leaders from

multiple faiths, talking about women's rights and empowering women.

In one example, we worked with Evelyn, as an example, and we did

actually work with her husband as well. They have negotiated a smaller

family as a result. He's on board with the contraception. When we met

them in 2012, she wasn't allowed out of the house. Now, he's encouraging

her to go out of the house and talk to other women and other men about

contraception. We have been talking about religious leaders, and

catholic priests are on the front line on this subject.

I spoke to Father Paddy McCafferty. What do you say about those this

issue? To be honest, it does not come up very often at all. In fact,

very rarely. I've been a priest for 28 years and I can nearly count on

one hand the number of occasions this has arisen as an issue, as any

type of issue at all. I think that is quite interesting just some

people might be surprised to learn that. Is what you're saying that

there is a kind of turning of a blind eye to this issue, that you

let members of your congregation do what they feel they can, and you

just don't really talk about it? No. I don't think that's the issue at

all. We maintain the teaching. The teaching is a difficult one, and in

the modern age, it is a very unpopular one, obviously. And it's a

difficult one to explain. But because a thing is difficult, it

doesn't mean that we abolish it all return a blind eye to it. The

teaching is what it is, and even though it's challenging, even though

it demands from people a certain discipline and commitment, I do

believe that it is a very valuable teaching, I believe it is a

prophetic teaching. Melinda Gates, the philanthropist who has been in

the UK this week for a family planning summit, she herself is a

catholic, she is hopeful that the Pope will change the Catholic

Church's position on contraception - what do you think? No, I don't

believe we should change the teaching simply because it's

difficult. Obviously, the teaching and the pastoral practice of the

Church essentially is informed by compassion for the person, the

struggle of people with difficulties. That all being said,

the teaching itself is valuable. The teaching I believe is prophetic in

modern times. Where there is a very promiscuous attitude towards human

sexuality in general, and in particular the whole contraceptive

mentality and ideology. I think that the church's teaching is still very

valuable and needs to be maintained. Father Paddy McCafferty, thank you

so much. Father Paddy McCafferty saying that the church's teaching is

valid and needs to be maintained - that's fair enough, isn't it? I

think it is a modern world and you need to work with the issues we

facing. There are a lot of women, we are not talking about promiscuity,

we're talking about sex within a marriage, I personally know women

who have had a number of children who have been told they can't have

any more without risking their lives. I think you need to be able

to address people like that and say, you have a choice, you need to be

able to protect yourself and your unborn children as well. Were

talking about something from 1968, surely that's out of date? No,

actually, Sean, you are basing this on the Western view to human

sexuality and to marriage or the attitude towards sex. There is a

problem where the Western world, or people within the Catholic Church in

the Western world, continue to try to push the agenda, or their

viewpoint on a church which is supposed to be universal, which

actually, since 1980, Africa has had the most tremendous growth... And a

huge amount of poverty. But also, there is a reduction of poverty.

There has been a reduction of poverty, in percentage terms of.

There are parts of Africa that people don't... Parts of Africa. The

problem is that Africa, what we continue to see from news stations,

Western media, will be the parts of Africa that seemed to be very weak.

Nobody is talking about the way the Africans see the family, how we

understand marriage and things like that. But there is a problem when

people from the Western world continue to push their worldview on

a church which is supposed to be universal. It is a problem. And the

church in Africa is a vital, vibrant church, if people didn't like the

teachings, then the church would not have been growing as it is. Why

would Melinda Gates, a woman who is Western, just because she's wealthy,

try to put her worldview on a church which is supposed to be universal.

Money people would say that is modern-day colonialism. It is. This

one says, the church should not influence government policy on

contraception or anything else. This one says, the Catholic Church should

be delivering the best teaching to us. It overlooks the role of sex as

something which cements relationships together. The

prohibition of condom is makes no sense. This one says, the church is

well aware that people are using contraception, and I suspect they

also understand. This one says, go and look around the world at one of

those poor children dying, one after the other, from starvation. The

Catholic Church preaches no contraception, why don't you sell

your many priceless treasures and feed them? And this one - the

teaching will not change, it is time for those who do not want to be

catholic to just leave the faith. Strong stuff! Danielle, let's ring

this back to Melinda Gates. She says she can agree to disagree with the

Pope, but imagine the Pope was able to in the Catholic Church, what

would that mean? It would mean an awful lot to many women in the

church and outside of the Catholic Church as well. What difference

would it make? It would mean that they would have the right to choose.

But bringing it back to what's being discussed today, I think also we

need to bear in mind that there are 700 million women and girls alive

today who married as a child. It is not just about violence or other

issues, but children don't have a pelvis which is formed and yet

they're marrying, having children and dying. We should fight child

marriage, then. But we can't do it just like that. In order to prevent

children dying, then... That's a Band-Aid! I will give the last one

to Clare... One really important point which nobody has discussed yet

is that nobody really understands, nobody here, you clearly don't,

you're not a catholic, I don't blame you for that. Melinda Gates says

she's a catholic, I don't believe she's a practising. Nobody has

explained what the Catholic Church teaching actually is on sex and

marriage. There is so much prejudice that we have to put up with as

Catholics, because people do not take the time to learn what the

proper teaching is and see how it empowers the woman, see how it

empowers the marriage and enhances the marriage, and it is a good and

beautiful teaching. I've lived the contraception lifestyle, I lived it

for many years. I have lived the NFP lifestyle, and I can tell you that

there is no comparison. We will end it on that, thank you to all of you

on the panel! American jazz and soul singer

Macy Gray hit the big time after releasing her hit

single I Try in 1999. Instead of being the making of her,

the resulting fame almost destroyed her,

as she turned to drugs Now back on tour in Europe

and recording new material, Macy talked to Nihal Arthanayake

about her journey to the top and # And I may seem all right

and smile when you leave I'm intrigued to know about Ohio,

you spent your formative years. It is the kind of place where your dad

has two jobs, everybody has a bunch of kids and... It is like an

all-American city. Did you grow up in largely an African-American

environment? Was it mixed? It was very separated, not the point of

people hating each other, it was just very like a... Does that mean

you were quite shielded from any racism when you were growing up?

There was a lot of incidents, the way people treat you or the way they

look at you all the way they shake your hand. You don't have to get

caught up in it, it's just a there. For yourself, your voice,

everything, feeling different, it became in your music career a major

bonus, but in life growing up, it must have been quite difficult? It

was awful. I was always really awkward and never quite comfortable

with myself. I'm still a little bit. Just to be completely OK with who

you are, that must be a great state, because I can't imagine what that's

like. Without your vulnerabilities, you would never have been able to

make the music? There is always a thing, if you want to be successful,

I think you have to have something lacking, because you're looking for

something to fill it up. Maybe it will fill it up but it probably

won't. But you're definitely trying to prove something and you go after

the big-time. # I play it off, but

I'm dreaming of you What was it like when you realised

you were in the eye of this storm, with a millions of sales?

# Though I try to hide it, it's clear

Well, it gives you a lot more confidence because you have people

coming to get your picture and your autograph. That builds you up, I

don't care what anybody says, that's nice. But when did you first

realise, I've got money? If you can spend it and it keeps coming, it's

really nice. You recommended! I recommend it highly! If only! What

is the most extravagant thing you did, that do look back on and think,

what were you thinking? I just did really stupid stuff. I

did really insane things to my house. I had a bronze statue of

myself at my house. A naked statue. Yes. Macy, it's well documented that

you had quite a party lifestyle, involving drink and drugs. How did

you get away from that? Vanity. I looked at myself in the mirror one

day and I looked horrible. And I quit. Is it that straightforward?

Yes. I was still in my early 30s and I had bags under my eyes, and I was

waking up with nosebleeds, and I was really, really skinny. The thing

that people don't realise about, when you are taking substances, is

you feel awful. You might be partying, but you don't feel good.

# We had such a good time # I thought you'd call me... There

is so much conversation these days about mental health issues. You've

been through those situations yourself. What helps you? I have

kids. They do get you out of yourself. It's something you just

get through. There's no like formula or road map. You just get through

it. You just wait it out. Is safe to any part of that road map? Yes. I've

always had a really great relationship with God. My mother

used to take me to church every Sunday. I used to like jumping in

the mud so I couldn't go to church, because you can't go with your dress

all messed up. So when did faith become your choice? I think I was

about 12. I remember looking up at the sky. The sun was setting, so

there was a layer of purple, and on top of that there was orange, and

then it was light blue, and on top of that it was dark blue, and that

was when I knew there was someone up there. It was obvious to me that

someone was making stuff, drawing. It looked so created to me. Being

back on the road, how does it feel? It's great. I love playing live. The

stage, you know, I'm queen up there. I love playing on the stage. And

tell me about the new album. All you be, you need.

# Stop, drop... It's a really good body of work, and

I'm just at the point of putting it all together and just making it have

a point. So if you're going to be here, be used.

Macy Gray - still got that fabulous husky voice.

Now, are you chilling out in your weekend gear?

If so, you're in good company,

because the Church of England is in the process of loosening

Instead of formal robes for services, clergy will be given

The more laid back approach is evident elsewhere too.

Male MPs have been told they no longer need to wear a tie

Away from parliament, dress codes and conventions have

I noticed yesterday, Sir, that a member was allowed to ask a question

in the chamber without wearing a tie. I have no particular view on

that, but have the rules on that changed, Sir? It seems to me that as

long as a member of rise in the house in what might be thought to be

businesslike attire, the question of whether or not that member is

wearing a tie is not absolutely front and centre stage. So am I

minded not to call a member simply because that member is not wearing a

tie, no. Away from parliament,

dress codes and conventions have certainly relaxed over the years

in all sorts of professions. So as doctors, teachers and city

gents all go more casual is that a good thing -

or are we dressing down too much? Joining the panel now

are Andrew Ramroop OBE, a master tailor working

on Savile Row, Laura Puddy,

Style Editor for Heat magazine, Luisa Zissman, businesswoman

and TV personality, We're becoming far more

casual in our dress. As a style editor,

does that bother you? Not at all. I don't think dressing

down necessarily means dressing scruffily. You can look very smart

in business smart casual attire. It's very subjective. As long as you

are dressing appropriately for where you are and where you need to be,

there's not a problem in dressing down. Andrew, there is a change in

times. I notice you haven't got a tie on. I'm projecting the image of

a casual Sunday morning! Does it worry you that things are changing?

It doesn't worry me so much, but I think there has been some

relaxation. The subject of the tie was raised a few years ago when the

London Chamber of Commerce decided that their members did not need wear

ties to come into their offices, or join the membership, and at that

time there was a lot of confusion in the city as to whether one should

dress up or dress down for business. You would dress for business to meet

your client, and the client would dress down. So the next time, your

client would dress up and you would dress down. So there was a lot of

confusion and no uniformity. But if there is an aspect of dressing in a

suit but not necessarily a tie... So if Bill turned up for a business

meeting dressed like that, how would you feel? It's horses for courses. I

wouldn't get in. I have been thrown out of some of the very best hotels

and restaurants in my time, and I went to the palace to get my oh be

with a Hawaiian shirt on. Nobody complained. The Queen didn't say,

I'm not going to give it to him! But everybody thinks you're supposed to

wear tales, top hat and everything, but you don't have too. Bill, it's

what you feel comfortable in that is what really matters. I don't think

it is. I'm not sure it is, because Thais are incredibly uncomfortable.

I cannot wear a tie. I do not have a tie. I don't possess one. Talking to

some friends last night, we said, why does anybody what is it for? It

can keep you warm. Keep you warm? Let's bring Louisa in. They wouldn't

have let me on their looking scruffy. They monitor your clothes

every morning on it. That is production, not Lord Sugar, but they

did tell a couple of the girls to get changed because what they were

wearing was not appropriate. I don't think smart casual needs to be

scruffy. We are confusing the two things. I think you need to be

presentable for work. I wouldn't employ some people if they came to

me and I didn't feel they were dressed appropriately for work. It

depends what business you are in. You work in the media, so you are

fine wearing jeans, flat shoes, cardigan or an oversize jumper.

Sometimes I wouldn't want my staff facing clients if they were in jeans

and looking scruffy. I'm not saying that women need is a and heels, but

you need to look professional for the job you are doing. And in

Parliament, that means wearing a tie. Emma looks very smart today.

Thank you! Victor has got in touch. What's wrong with this country

today? No professionalism. What next? Don't bother to wash or comb

your hair. Another says, it's a sad situation when nothing is important

enough to dress in a certain way. I couldn't take someone seriously if

they dressed too casually. Helen says, we are years behind everyone

as it is, let's get into the 21st-century. To quote Coco Chanel,

dress shabbily and they notice the dress, but dressed impeccably and

they notice the woman. Another says, a friend of mine wanted to become

Prime Minister just so he could make everyone wear hats again! Sean, have

you got a hat? I do have a hat. Andrew, let's bring this back to the

church, because that is why we having this debate. Losing cassocks

and belts and ruffs and someone in the church, that's fair enough,

isn't it? What really matters in the church is the message that is being

delivered to the congregation, and if the church aspires to appeal to a

younger audience, it's make the message

alive to younger audience, and it's not how you dress. Dressing down

does not mean you will attract a younger audience. The important

thing is the message. We are dressing down in court as well. I

feel they should keep traditional dress in court. You don't go to

court for a nice time and to wear jeans. If you are in court it's

because you have committed a crime or you are a witness in a crime.

It's a serious point. Everybody looks the same if they wear a suit

and tie. It is an anonymous look. If you go into a nightclub late at

night, which you shouldn't, and there is a mansion of Mafia people

there, they will be wearing suits, ties or dinner jackets. If I go in

wearing jeans or a T-shirt, I would probably be thrown out. That is

absurd. The other thing with wearing suits is that anyone can do it. It's

like a uniform. Dressing not according to tradition doesn't mean

you have to be shabby or super casual. You are actually putting

more effort in if you are not going with the norm. I don't think we

should take away individuality. Andrew, you look lovely and really

smart, and that is an individual suit. Not a lot of people would wear

that jacket, but you still look lovely. You can look professional

and still be individual. I have to say, you all look wonderful. This is

a bit of a loving! You all look great in your own, unique ways.

Emma, we still have comments coming in from the earlier items. We do. We

talked about rewilding earlier. Robert says, we hear of farmers

being guardians of the landscape, but the fact is that nature would be

a different landscape if it was dominated by woodland. Catholicism -

Liam says that he is no longer a Catholic because of the medieval

ways of thinking. Another says, so sad that religion can still dictate

what a woman does in relation to family. And Ben says, with regard to

jack becoming Mr England as an amputee, what a hunk.

Congratulations, Jack! He is a good-looking guy.

Many thanks to all our guests and you at home

But Emma will be carrying on the conversation online.

Yes - I'll be taking fashion tips from Bill Oddie, and talking to him

Log on to facebook.com/bbc SundayMorningLive

In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole