Episode 6 Sunday Morning Live

Episode 6

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As concerns about the environment grow, we ask


Sooner or later the skies will be full of everyone does this every


year. We will keep looking for space in the skies.


This selfie taken by a monkey leads to a court battle over


Do animals have the same rights as humans?


The first female Doctor Who has been announced. The Daleks will be happy


to exterminate The Doctor whatever the gender.


But now advertisers are under threat too for gender stereotyping.


Are ads like this a thing of the past?


Five big masculine chunks of chocolate. It's not for girls.


And Emma Barnett is here ready to let you have your say.


We want to hear from you, which ever time dimension you yourselves in.


And I'm sure you want to say some about our first topic, flying.


You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter.


Don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.


Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.


Texts are charged at your standard message rate.


Or email us at [email protected]


However you choose to get in touch, please don't forget to include your


name so I can get you involved in our discussions.


And later I'll be talking to the BAFTA-winning actor


Adeel Akhtar, who doesn't shy away from controversial roles.


Do you know what people will say? What will happen? We wouldn't be


able to give you away. I play the father of the girl who he eventually


by the end of the story kills through what is known as an honour


killing. First, fasten your seat belts


and let's talk about flying. Air traffic controllers


are warning that UK skies Friday was the busiest day


of the year, with air traffic controllers handling an estimated


8,800 flights - a record number. They have called for a drastic


modernisation in the way aircraft Enviromentalists too


are concerned about the impact We'll discuss that in a moment


after Samanthi Flanagan samples some views from passengers at Manchester


Airport. Holidays, weekends, business. More


and more of us are taking to the air. During peak times, the skies


above the UK are bee hive of activity. I am at Manchester


Airport, where a staggering 27 million passengers passed through


every year. Today alone 100,000 people will take off and land in one


of these. This is a really busy day for you at Manchester Airport and


this is the busiest summer ever for UK air travel. We have had 718


flights depart from the airport and it will get even busier over summer.


As it stands, this weekend alone we will have 400,000 passengers. Do you


enjoy being on an aeroplane? Is that part of the holiday? Yes. It is


quicker and more convenient. The best thing is take off. What is the


appeal of destinations you can only get to by aeroplane? Guaranteed warm


weather. The experiences, different food, different people. Huge numbers


of people passing through the airport. How do you cope with that


capacity? We have just launched a ?1 billion regeneration programme which


will see terminal two being redeveloped over ten years, meaning


we can accommodate the passengers we have today, but it also means we can


have up to 50 million passengers coming through our door. Do any of


these passengers feel guilty about flying and the impact on the


environment? We think about it but we don't do it often enough for it


to have an impact. I don't give it another thought. I have looked at


the sky and I have seen the line of smoke, thinking wow. Obviously the


environmental impact and the price of the ticket includes the


environment tax. I did think about it because the airport is paying for


it. I think this every year that it isn't if I mentally friendly and we


should do something else. We have had some great staycations. But I


can count on one hand the number of days we have been able to go to the


beach in the UK. While there is still some space in the sky, we will


probably carry on. There are people who think we should fly less because


of the impact on the environment. What do you think about that? We are


still OK to be flying but we need to do so responsibly. The new aviation


strategy which the government is now consulting on will make sure that we


not only grow from an aviation perspective but we do so in a way


that would be environmentally friendly. It is not about not doing


it. It is doing it in the right way. In the meantime, people will just


keep on flying. How many times do you fly each year? If we're lucky,


twice. Just once this year and it something we look forward to.


Hopefully in other words what the end of year without the kids. They


don't know about this! -- hopefully another one towards the end of the


year without the kids. Samanthi Flanagan at


Manchester Airport. Joining us now are Angie Greaves,


a radio broadcaster, Graham Hughes,


an adventurer and author, Luke Gittos, a lawyer and writer,


and Sally Pavey is a campaigner. You have got a world record, Graham.


I am the fastest and first person to go to every country in the world


without flying. Why on earth would you do that? I thought it would be


fun and I raise money for charity and to prove it could be done and to


knock down the boundaries and borders, and show that we can travel


the world without flying. It is possible. Why is it important not to


fly? The environmental impact, first and foremost. What we are doing to


the skies is massive and it is having devastating affect on the


smaller countries in the world, like Tuvalu, which is suffering from


flooding every year. It is soil water, salt water, not just the


water that goes away and doesn't leave anything behind. How do you


manage to go to every country? Most people don't have the time and


money. What a privilege but how do you do it? Moving between islands in


the Pacific presents a lot of difficulties. Flying is cheaper,


more convenient and quicker. As a broad aim, it is noble not to fly.


It is better for all of us to fly less. No, flying is a modern


miracle. Not all of us have the time to take trains and buses all over


the world. An interesting fact is that the average house income of


people using Heathrow Airport has been coming down and down. That is a


good thing. More people are able to take flights. I think that is a


really good thing. What is also important that this is saving time.


Time is very precious. Flying allows us to spend more time doing


productive creative things when we get to our destination. Not all of


us want to be spending our time getting somewhere. We want to be


doing things once we are there and that is really


important. A couple of facts. Aviation contributes less than 6% of


UK emissions. The impact is pretty negligible. Our carbon emissions are


capped because we are a member of the EU ETS. So choosing to fly makes


very little difference. And directly in my eye line, she is shaking her


head and raising eyebrows! I don't agree with that, I'm afraid. You're


talking about carbon trading. And it is not just the UK carbon, it is the


trading. These aeroplanes are going to and from destinations so it is a


much bigger thing of UK trading. What do you mean by that? They are


doing the return journey? Exactly. You are flying to Europe so there is


carbon trading going on in Europe and you fly back to us, and there is


carbon trading. If we carry on the way we are going, we are going to


preach. Carbon trading doesn't work. If you added on the cost onto each


ticket, less people would fly. What we are talking about is less than


half of the UK population actually fly. We are heavily subsidising an


aviation industry. It is not a level playing field like car


manufacturing. Aviation is heavily subsidised. So the prices should go


up? No! While I am hearing what you are saying and I am in total


agreement, the average family who saved their money and decides to go


on holiday, is not thinking along the lines. If I want to see family


in the United States or Barbados, where can I get my family together


and leave the UK and be there within eight hours? Where can you have a


huge amount of people in one go going to another destination? I will


just say, while I really love your stories, I have also been a big


believer that travelling is actually the best education of life. You have


probably got stories galore. Absolutely. I don't want to see


flight prices going up. If you take a few year, holiday with the kids,


fine. It is people flying every other day when they don't need to


because we have Skype and the internet and ways of having a


conference called without actually going to New York. Shouldn't we


change our way of thinking? We used to


drive without seat belts and nobody would do that now. And we used to


drive cars with exhausts and we can now drive electrically. But we can't


fly electrically. At the moment. I know it will take a huge amount of


battery. In the future there will be an environmental free way of flying.


We are ready have them. In Europe we have the trains. But we don't use


them. The idea of getting on a train and waking up in your destination in


Europe would be brilliant and then trains would be quicker. It costs me


more to travel by train from Gatwick to London than it does to fly to


Europe. That is not sustainable. As someone who flies an awful lot, she


even flew into the studio! That is harsh. It is not all about leisure.


People use flights for business a lot of the time.


I'm joined now by the businessman Bal Bansal in our Nottingham studio.


How often do you fly for work? Probably once a month at least if


not twice. People could argue in this day and age you could do those


meetings, not sure how far you are flying, but you could do them over


Skype or FaceTime, using the computer. Why bother flying to a


meeting? You get so much from talking to people around the table.


I understand that we have new technologies like Skype and we can


talk and see people. But you can easily get distracted. I have been


on Skype calls when someone gets distracted and something else is


going on. If you are sitting round a table with someone and talking to


them, there is so much more value you can get out of that. That is


your argument for it. Do you ever feel guilty? You are taking many


more flights than the average Brit. What do you feel about that? I don't


feel guilty. Time is money. I need to get to places quickly. I need to


talk to people, conversations, decisions to be made, and the


quicker I can do that, the better. The amount of time you spend


checking in, you could have spent that doing other deals. I can do


emails, which I do sometimes, but also the process is getting quicker.


The app has the boarding pass, so I don't queue for the ticket, I go


through, onto the plane. Obviously security is essential. The seat on


the plane. It is quicker now. And it will only get quicker. Would you


like to do more flights? Would you like more options to fly at


different times and have it be more flexible? Some people take trains.


There are lots of low cost airlines now. I can get to Paris for ?40. Try


to get a train ticket in England from lethal Nottingham to London and


it costs ?60, ?80. -- from Leeds or Nottingham to London. Flying is more


cost-effective. We were talking earlier in the discussion about


environmental concerns overflying. Joining me from our Oxford


studio now is Ian Jopson, Do you think enough is being done to


make flying more environmentally friendly? I do. You would expect me


to say that, working for Sustainable Aviation. You can't fly millions of


people every day in a way that is eco friendly. You have got to burn


millions of litres of oil. It is true. We need to accept that we have


an environmental impact as an industry but it is also important to


note that as an industry we are the third bid biggest aerospace sector


in the world. We donate ?22 billion every year to the UK GDP. But of


course there is environmental impact. Aeroplanes make noise, they


emit carbon dioxide, they burn fuel. So what are we doing specifically to


address that? What are you doing in the aviation industry?


As a coalition of around 40 of the biggest aviation companies in the


UK, we have set out a road map to 2050 where we see through various


measures that I will come onto shortly that we can double the


amount of traffic in UK airspace by 2050 whilst not actually increasing


CO2 emissions. How will we do that? Firstly we will invest in new


fuel-efficient aircraft. Since 2005 the UK airlines have invested some


?37 billion in around 470 new aircraft, between 15 and 5% more


fuel efficient than the ones they replaced. There are another 400 of


those on order. We fly more fuel efficient and quieter aeroplanes. We


also change the airspace to make it more efficient. Since 2008 we have


made in 300 changes to UK airspace, saving around 5% of CO2 emissions,


we have more to do. The airspace above the UK is increasingly


congested, we are driving towards airspace modernisation which will


make the routes that the aircraft fly more efficient, flying closer to


their optimum levels, claiming smoothly to reduce fuel noise and


descending more efficiently to reduce fuel and noise again. We are


investing a huge amount in developing alternative fuels,


sustainable alternative fuels. On the international stage, the


industry is committed to by 2020 developing a global what is called a


market-based measures scheme, effectively an emissions trading


scheme which will reduce emissions between now... So 2020 and 2050. Ian


Jopson, Djere Sustainable Aviation, that is what the aviation industry


has to say. Back to the panel. Bal said it is important for business,


should we be flying more? People say you can do it over Skype or the


phone, this is human interaction we are talking about, travel enables


human interaction and for the world to be a smaller place. It is not


very long ago that if you lived in one country and someone else lived


in a different one would be very hard to see and interact with them


face to face. I think it would be awful if we just said people can do


this over Skype, it would mean the end of face-to-face interaction.


Aviation is an important tool for enabling human relationships. Sally


is shaking her head is again. Many people have different views


depending on where they live. Lots of people do not want the third


Remnick -- third runway at Heathrow because they live on the flight


path. There is a lot of NIMBY, not in my backyard. You can refuse Mata


accuse people of being NIMBYs, there is huge drop in business travel


which is only contributing 20%. This growth is low-cost. A huge drop


because...? People are not travelling for business as much.


That is not on airport, that is across the country. I love Ian


Tibbetts, but new aircraft, yes, not the low-cost ones. They are


something like 25-year-old aircraft. EasyJet are investing but they do


not too long haul, you have to look at the long haul. If I may touch on


the noise factor, Ian touches on these streamlined ones, they are


concentrating putting motorways above peoples homes, they are


getting every single arrival and departure. That is how they cram in


more aircraft and save the CO2, there is no consideration about the


noise on the ground I am particularly concerned at the fact


that everyone here seems to want to put profit above morality.


If we continue to do that, we will still be the world leader in


slavery, which were used to be. You have to stop at some point and say


what will happen in the future? If the polar ice caps melt we will lose


every beach in the world. It is all very well going on a beach holiday


now, when there is no beach in 20 years, how do you explain that to


the grandkids? Ehmer? Bill says I don't care about


the environment, being frank, I have no children or grandchildren, I


want my travels as convenient and fast as possible. Stuart says I can


fly from Edinburgh to Cardiff in an hours ?80 return, compared to an


eight-hour journey and ?230 on the train. Nadia says I refuse to fly


anywhere in Europe we can travel to public transport, planes are causing


untold damage to the skies. Another viewer says maybe economics can save


the world, budget airlines are cheaper than trains, increased costs


would make us think twice. Another e-mail, most families have


won far -- one holiday a year when they fly with a full plane full of


people. What about rich people who fly whole aeroplanes for just one


person? There is a concept that people who


fly you... Are selfish, the first person said he did not care about


the environment. I care about the environment. Profit or environment?


Climate change, we have to deal with that problem. The problem with


places like you mentioned is a lack of infrastructure. Floods are a


problem in the poor countries that need to be developed to cope with


climate change, it is a different issue. It is their problem?! It is a


problem with infrastructure and development. We have floats in the


UK. It is not a moral issue about taking a holiday. Taking a holiday


is not akin to slavery, there is nothing morally wrong with taking a


cheap flight. This is about... This is about leisure time. More and more


poor people can take holidays, that is the key dimension. I think there


is snobbery around cheap flights, the people taking cheap flights are


the people who can only afford cheap flights, the people who take one


holiday a year, at max, to spend some time abroad. There is a


snobbery as if that is not a worthwhile thing to do. I completely


agree on cheap flights, I think they should stay. I think the train fares


need to come down so we have an option.


ALL TALK AT ONCE This discussion has certainly taken off, but we need to


landed for the time being. -- land it.


Adeel Akhtar has always been admired as a go-to actor with parts


in prestigious productions such as The Night Manager


But this year he received a deserved public accolade when he became


the first non-white performer to win best male actor at the BAFTAs


for his performance in the hard-hitting BBC drama


I went to meet him to talk about his career and his upbringing


Yes, he is here. Yes, it is what we suspect. You can call me Jas. I


continue that your husband is an extremely persistent man.


Dramas like The Night Manager, Appletree Yard, we will get onto


some of the other work in a moment. Very diverse work. What first drew


you to acting? When I was growing up, whenever I turned on television


and saw Asian stories being told there were things like My Beautiful


Launderette, Buddha Of Suburbia, Bhaji On The Beach. They were very


original stories being told about Asians and there experience. I was


drawn to it. You wanted to be part of that world? I did. Murdered By My


Father, let's talk about it. You're beautiful. Like your mother. She'd


be proud. Just remind me and everyone else,


your role in this particular drama? I play the father of a girl who he


eventually, by the end of the story, kills through what is known as an


honour killing. You've been promised already, that's


all that matters! Do you know what people will say?! What will happen?!


To Alice?! We would not even be able to give you away!


It is a story about pride. We all fall victim to that in our own way.


The idea of culture and religion, ethnicity, sexuality, it bleeds away


and that is what we are trying to get to.


You won the BAFTA for that. That must have been an amazing feeling,


the first non-white actor to win Best Male in the TV batters? What do


you make of that? Amazing. Pride and joy to think that somebody looking


out there, a younger version of me, might find some inspiration. I think


you're looking for the phrase role model but do not want to say it?


That would be nice. Other Asian actors I have spoken to have limited


roles for them, whether it is shopkeepers all the stereotypes. I


suppose that is an issue? It was, when I was first acting it was very


narrow and I only got certain roles. There are real obstacles that I have


gone through and other Asian actors have gone through. But I try not to


look at that. I just tried to do what I do, the best I can. You grew


up in a Muslim household, was religion a big part of life? Sort


of. I grew up as great a moderate Muslim. I definitely was aware of


other Muslim kids who had a lot more strict upbringing than I had. Were


you religious yourself, did you go through that stage? It was more a


nod to it, I would not eat pork or drink, but when my sister went to


university she became a practising Muslim and through her I was


practising for quite a chunk of my teenage years, praying five times a


day and stuff. 15, 16, I just stopped. I got to a point where the


questions that it used to answer certainly were not as important as


other questions I was asking. My life took a different direction,


really. And your life took a different


direction may be from what your dad wanted? In terms of career. What did


he make of the acting? My dad was and still is quite strict.


Understandably so, he came over at a particular time from Pakistan, it


was really tough for him to find work and provide for his family, so


he just wanted me and my sister to be professionals. Ironically, your


first big break was as a hapless terrorist. In the British film For


Lions. You fly to the target, when I dial


this you go to heaven, Brook Road. -- brother Crow. Did you have mixed


feelings about joking about terrorism? Terrorism? Not really, if


you do it well it is truthful and you can't knock it. Running squat


down, holding explosives, things you should not laugh at but really


funny. What did your dad make of it? I think he laughed. I take it he is


on board by now? Yes. Did the BAFTA help out? He is not outspoken about


his feelings, he would just go, you know, well done. I put it in pride


of place in the living room. I have just had a little baby and it is a


bit chaotic in the house and I found it behind the Weetabix packet in the


kitchen and we haven't moved it since. It's got to fit into life,


doesn't it? Thank you so much for talking to us. I have really enjoyed


it. Still to come on


Sunday Morning Live: The shipping container turned


into a des res for the homeless. It gave me an opportunity to


integrate back into society properly and have my own space.


This week began with the announcement that the Daleks'


arch enemy Doctor Who would transform into female form


Jodie Whittaker will break the all-male mould by taking


Later in the week, advertisers were put on notice that they would


be facing tougher rules from their watchdog,


the Advertising Standards Authority, on gender portrayal.


I'm reorganising my living space... Pampering Hector... Rehearsing with


the girl Starc before writing down my innermost thoughts. That's


nothing compared to captain awesome's day. Island cut the enemy


secret Starc -- I'll uncover enemy secret...


It doesn't just happen by magic. Behind every great Christmas,


there's mum. Women! Don't expect any help on


Thursday! It's going to be OK for an advert to


show a woman shopping or cleaning or for a man doing the DIY task in the


home. What we will be looking for is adverts that go beyond that and


paint a picture that it is a woman 's to tide you back to her family


who have trashed the house, that is her job in life. We are worried


about that sort of depiction. Similarly adverts mocking men for


being hopeless at performing straightforward parental or


household tasks just because they are a man.


So the ad men and ad women will be under scrutiny.


"About time," say some, while others say it's another


So are we too sensitive to stereotypes?


Joining us now are Angela Epstein, a journalist and broadcaster.


Otegha Uwagba is a writer and brand consultant who has


Emma Dabiri is a social historian and feminist.


Obviously I need to come to you first since I got your name wrong!


Isn't this going over the top? A bit too PC conscious? Regulating


advertising for something like this? It isn't over the top at all. If you


listen to what the guy speaking were saying, it is very reasonable. It is


not saying that women can't do any domestic work in an advert, and men


can't do anything traditionally assumed to be the man's role. They


are looking at more pernicious messages that are firm stereotypes.


It is not as though advertising is a benign industry that seeks to


disseminate information. It absolutely is trying to condition us


to think in certain ways. And it is absolutely necessary that we have a


regulatory body that makes sure that is not done in ways that are


extremely damaging, which has often been the case in the past. The


Advertising Standards Authority chief executive said that tougher


standards can play an important role in tackling inequalities. I think


the whole thing is a load of rubbish, to be quite honest. At the


moment we have a female Prime Minister, female monarch and the


most powerful person in the judiciary is a woman, and they have


always days back row all been brought up -- and they have all been


brought up watching Fairy Liquid adverts. But we have the gender pay


gap and inequality. I should earn the same as you if I am doing the


same job, without question. I don't care whose face is on the banknote,


man or a woman, so long as I get the same number of banknotes. But gender


stereotypes catch the accident of what is out there. There are


exaggerated truths. I am Jewish, a mother with kids, and if I fuss and


say you haven't eaten your dinner, I get colleagues saying I am a


protective Jewish mother. I'm not offended by that because it is


taking a little side of my character and making it into an exaggerated


truth. That happened in advertising. Women like to keep their houses


clean and nice and it doesn't stop them being high-flying corporate


lawyers because the two are not mutually exclusive and advertising


just plays on that. You have worked in advertising. I am all for the


regulation. In journalism there is the free speech argument, which I


understand. Advertising is about influencing people to change their


behaviour and it needs to be regulated like other businesses. As


for the stereotypes you just discussed, the protective Jewish


mother is benign. A stereotype that is not benign our stereotypes


associated with black men, black women, people of colour, disabled


people, gay people. Stereotypes kill. The reason Trayvon Martin was


shot down is because there is a stereotype black men being criminals


and is dangerous. I don't remember seeing any positive black role


models on television during the 80s and it didn't turn me into a


criminal. They were always bad guys. I am doing something very different


and so are you. Of course but it is fair to say that we are probably


exceptions. If you turn on the BBC, any TV channel, there are not that


many people of colour who are not playing the council estate


stereotype. It is important that we have better examples and role


models. Take us into an advertising board room. Are there lots of women


and black people? In the boardrooms, there are not. It is generally white


men and it is something I always found deeply problematic and I am


trying to change that with my brand. There are black people in


advertising and women but they are at the bottom. The decision makers


and strategists are white men and that needs to change. When we are


talking about regulation, we're also talking about protecting them. The


stereotype of men not being able to cook and do things, which comes into


this. I don't think men or women need protecting from stereotypes. I


don't know any women who had their life choices determined by adverts.


They don't exist. If you look across the board, women are smashing gender


stereotypes in all areas of society. They are outperforming men in


professional life and education. They are leaving any stereotypical


vision of what women should do in the dust. The reality is that women


can cope with stereotypes. If you look at the research that the ASA


put into this, it is junk. They treat it as fun, stereotypes. People


recognise that it is superficial. What about little kids that are


watching? People can make a judgment about what an adverts reflect real


life. Everyone recognises when an advert is making a stereotypical


point. If we are saying that adverts don't influence, what is the point


of them? They do influence and they do have an important role. The point


is that people can make informed decisions. But do they? Nobody knows


any woman who has had their life choices affected by what appeared in


an advert. They don't exist. It is not advertisement alone. It is


multilayered. All of these ideas about what women should do and


should be are coming from across society and advertising is just one


part of that. Angela, can I put this to you. The Yorkie advert. How did


it make you feel? It made me laugh. Not for women? I just didn't care. I


have a 13-year-old daughter with three older brothers. She should


either be a tremendous tomboy, brought up with mud and dirt and


footballs, and not because I have said they have got to play with


those things because they are boys. The instead, biology, whatever it is


as making them do those things, and she loves dolls and poor fee and


glittery accessories. She said she wants to be a human rights lawyer


one day and the next she wants to run a beauty salon. She has seen me


being a working mother. I don't want her choices to be diminished. I


don't think Fairy Liquid adverts will limit choice. It makes us laugh


and we are consumers. We want to know if that bottle of washing up


liquid will do the job. I have a 19-year-old daughter and I was


uncomfortable looking back at that Yorkie advert. What do you think?


That advert I didn't actually find that problematic. For little girls?


It is an exaggerated example of a gender stereotype. If you are


slightly older and more intelligent, you can see that it is an


exaggerated example. What are problematic things like the beach


body advert, which shows the negative stereotype of what women's


bodies should look like and those are that young girls and teenagers


see and internalise as what they should do. It is the same thing with


adverts about mothers looking after Christmas. Why can't dads look after


Christmas and do the housework? We are still talking about it 20 years


later. It was such a rarity to reverse the stereotype like that.


Let's take a non-commercial break and go to Emma. Very good. Keith


says stereotyping happens because stereotypes actually exist. Burying


your head in the sand and tarting will not stop them happening. Susan


says if we are eager to accept that women can do anything, we should


also embrace that we can be perfectly happy in the home roles


that we have held for generations. David says that stereotypes have an


effect in real life so let's do something about it. There says it is


about time that there was more equality in gender and the way it is


portrayed. Stereotypes should be wiped out and we need to remember


that anyone can do anything. Marie says the reason a stereotype becomes


a stereotype in the first place is because it is a truism. Let people


be people and teach children the same thing as well. Thank you. And


thank you to our panel. I'm afraid we are out of time on this.


Homelessness is a growing problem in the UK, manifested most starkly


by those sleeping rough on the streets of our cities.


That reportedly amounted to more than 4,000 people


A Bristol businessman concerned about the issue has decided that


rather than give money to the homeless he would find


a unique way of helping those with nowhere to sleep,


Today I am in Bristol and I am house-hunting. This isn't exactly a


prime location but it is the beginning of one man's dream. That


man is Jasper Thompson, who is bringing a whole new meaning to


homes under the hammer. Hello. I'm very busy at the moment. I'm good,


thank you. This is the site! I can hear lots of noise and I can see


lots of container type things. What is going on? Today we are completing


this shipping container. It is actually a shipping container.


Jasper is transforming these 3.5 tonne steel structures into flats


for the homeless. This one was donated to us by a local shipping


company. Can you show me around? Absolutely. Mind your step. This is


the bathroom. And we have a living area. This is going to be a proper


home for someone? A proper home for someone. I appreciate the help you


have given me over the last few months. Jasper has never worked with


homeless people before. He has been in the army, he has worked in


private security in Afghanistan and Iraq, and now he runs a Jamaican


restaurant in Bristol. He came up with this novel plan to put a roof


over people's heads last winter. The shipping containers came about


through the use of what we have got on this site at the moment. It was


previously a car wash. I spoke to one of the guys who left it here and


he said I could utilise it. I put six guys in the containers during


the winter months, just to help them. Just to get out of the cold


for a bit. I decided it was a good idea and I decided to convert them


into flats. He has also converted his friends and restaurant customers


into workers to help out. He has now persuaded a bunch of local tradesmen


to give up their time for free. A hard-working man here called Gary.


What are you doing today? Just a bit of security. Helping out with the


plumbing. What do you think about this project? It helps people to get


off the street. It helps with drug problems and hopefully help them get


back into life. Another helping hand today is from Lee, who was about to


move into one of the shipping containers. He has been homeless for


18 months, sleeping rough in woodland. How did you become


homeless? I was working as a head chef for about eight years. I was


under a hell of a lot of pressure all the time. I just couldn't really


function any more as a human. I started to have a meltdown, really.


I had to pack in work because I was so stressed out. I didn't have any


way of supporting myself and I ended up homeless. While we have been


talking, Jasper has been out to get supplies and has come across another


homeless man in need of shelter. We were coming back from the shops. The


van broke down. And as I walked around the corner, there was a line


of disused cars. I found him in the car. What is your name? Dale? Hello.


How long have you been living in the car? Since mats. And why? The break


up of a relationship. -- six months. What was it like? Variable. Some


days I had nothing. What have you come here for today? Just something


to eat and a chat. In this unusual community it is not just local


tradesmen volunteering time and skills. The future tenants of these


containers, the homeless people themselves, have got to pitch in as


well. It is really important to get these homeless guys working on the


containers. It gives them self belief, self-worth. A structure to


their day. And potentially a home at the end of it. This man has his eye


on this container home. He has been on the streets until recently


struggling with drug addiction. I have been sleeping rough for six


months. Now I am here, working as part of a community, helping myself


in the first place and helping other homeless people to rebuild their


lives. I am blessed, you know? Jasper reckons that all in the


containers should cost around ?10,000 each to buy and refurbished.


But thanks to the hard-working volunteers and donated fittings, so


far they have got nothing. He is planning another 20 units in Bristol


and he hopes they will take off nationwide. The first container is


now a finished home and Lee will soon have a roof over his head. How


are you doing? Very good. How are you? Ready for the big move? I am


indeed. I hope you get sorted, mate. A proper bed. And a shower! It is


quite big and roomy. It is like a little hotel shower. It is going to


give me some security, an opportunity to integrate back into


society properly. I can find work. I can live here, do bits and pieces


and just have my own space. People taking selfies like this


is a routine sight these days. But a famous selfie has now


ended up as the subject of a court battle in America.


That's because the picture The image went viral with millions


of people viewing it. Photographer David Slater set up


the shot and so claims copyright. But the animal rights group


Peta says the macaque monkey is the owner,


and has taken the matter to court The case highlights the broader


issue of whether animals deserve the same rights as humans,


which we'll move on to shortly. But first let's talk


about this dispute over Joining the panel now


are David Slater, the photographer whose camera was used to take


the monkey selfie, Elisa Allen, the director of Peta UK,


Peter Tatchell, a human rights campaigner, and Angela


Epstein is still with us. We have to start with you, David.


Tell us the story, B is the sort of photographs you normally take? I am


a conservation photographer, it has been my passion and play for 20


years. I was in a tropical rainforest where these macaques


live, so much so that they befriended me over the days that I


was with them. I thought if I set my camera up on a tripod and offered


them a button to press, a cable release, no doubt their natural


curiosity would be to bring them in, press the button. The noise of the


camera excited them, I press the button, made the noise, they would


look on the lens and take their own photograph. It is a fantastic


photograph, but the key thing is you enticed them that they press the


button? I am definitely the creator of this, it is my intent to my


creativity and also my experience with the monkeys that I knew there


was a great chance they would press the button. The problem is people


now think that pressing the button is taking a photograph. Elisa Allen,


why is it important that the monkey has the rights to the photo? Very


quickly, US copyright law is very clear on the issue, it does not


matter who owns the camera, it is the individual who presses the


shutter button who is the creator of the image. I really want to look at


the wider issue here, that is if this case is successful, this would


be the very first time that an animal has been declared the owner


of property rather than simply seen as a piece of property, which is how


the law currently use animals. There is not anything inherently extreme


about this lawsuit, if we look at 100 years ago women were not allowed


to own property, women were seen as the property of men, as were


children. Thankfully society has evolved and history tells us the law


evolves with it. Animal rights is the same as gender rights, in


equality? Certainly, Peter can speak about this issue and the into link


between human rights and animal rights, but in this case we are


questioning, just as your age, your race don't determine whether or not


you are entitled to rights, maybe your species should not? Lots of


people will be watching this and they will say that a lovely


organisation which looks after animals are bullies and many people


and companies are to be bad things, monkeys as pets, circuses, wherever


they are being treated inhumanely. Surely you should be picking those


fights. Look at David? Exactly. He has gone there to raise the profile


of these monkeys and you are attacking him. This is not a


personal issue, David and I spent a good bit of time just getting to


know each other and it is safe to say that we agree on more than we


disagree on. It is not a personal matter, this is a copyright dispute


and it does not change the fact that David is trying to claim ownership


over an image that he did not take and is attempting to profit from an


image that is not or should not be his. Peter, there are people around


the world really struggling, marginalised, no control over their


lives, being abused. There are so many people like that. Does this


undermine their battle when you are talking about a monkey? Not at all,


human rights and animal rights come from the same place, it is about the


prevention of suffering. Is a monkey suffering because it has not got


money from a picture? A group that is a different issue. In that case I


would say if a randomly and accidentally pressed the shutter


than the monkeys should not have copyright, if the monkey had


knowledge by watching a human and then press the shutter and they did


so intentionally and deliberately, then they should have copyright.


Knowledge and intention is key to the creative process and creativity


gives copyright. Angela, many people are told will be outraged, saying


did you just hear yourself?! -- many people at home. I had to check the


date on the paper to see that it is not able the first! I abhor any


cruelty to animals, we need to robustly legislate animal research,


although it is a critical part of evolution in order to save people


from disease and illness, but I think this is a spectacular own goal


by Peta because all your potential good workers undermined by the fact


that David took it upon himself to make this enterprising journey, did


not hurt the monkeys in any way, lets, shot and created the image and


these monkeys happened to take the photograph. Copyright means your


image or your personal intellectual property is not compromised. I


assume the macaques are still living happily, they are not thinking we


could have gone to Harrods with the proceeds?! It is part of the bigger


picture. The little man is being made an example to be part of the


bigger picture. The bigger picture, inhumane hunting, they are real and


important issues. With the greatest respect, this is a joke that you are


doing this, your organisation should be hanging its head in shame. Strong


words from Angela. You as star these monkeys suffering. The answer is


yes. Their populations are dwindling, they decreased by about


20% of the last 20 years. Their habitats are being destroyed at an


alarming rate, they are poached for Bush meets, they are in dire need of


help. They could certainly benefit from the proceeds of this copyright.


This case is about the fundamental rights of these highly


sophisticated, highly intelligent animals. They reckon site does not


recognise themselves in the mirror. ALL TALK AT ONCE Emma has somebody


with a religious perspective on this.


I'm joined now by Nitin Mehta, founder of the Hindu


To all animals deserve the same respect, the same rights as humans?


Good morning. According to the Hindu perspective, animals feel pain and


to have emotions, they feel pain and pleasure. As human beings it is only


right that we are called them those rights. As Mahatma Gandhi said, is a


superior species we have to be more compassionate to other forms of life


that we live with on this planet. Where does that end? Let's say you


were being attacked by an animal, you would do everything you could to


defend yourself? Absolutely, that is how it should be. But we are hunting


animals, we are doing experiments on them, tens of thousands are put in a


shed. Some of those experiments, people have campaigned for those


experiments to be more ethical, they have saved many lives, advances in


cancer treatments have come through by experimenting on animals. I am


not sure about that. There are lots of side effects. Animals have a


different metabolism to human beings. As Mahatma Gandhi said, for


him, the life of a lamb is as sacred as the life of a human being. As a


superior disease we had to do better with the animal kingdom. This kind


of violence that we are carrying out on animals... It is all very well


saying this is a vegetarian, millions of people will eat meat and


continue to eat meat, does that not make what you are doing slightly


futile? At the time people thought colonialism or slavery would always


be there, eventually it was abolished. Eventually I think there


will be a time when not for the sake of the animals but the human race we


have to really... Nitin Mehta, we had to leave it there. Not for the


animals' say, but the humans' sake. If you had to save a life, would it


be and animal life or a human one? Take off your Peta hat and speak


personally. I don't know the specifics. I have no idea what I


would do in a moment of panic. You would save an animal ahead of a


human? In a moment of panic and crisis, I don't get any single one


of us can predict. Is that your viewpoint? The bigger picture, there


is a great ape Project which proposes that great apes like


gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans and bonobos are so humanlike that


they deserve basic legal protections such as the right to life,


protection against suffering and freedom from incarceration. I think


that is the way to go. I think we need to recognise that we humans are


not unique in our capacity for feelings, emotions, language,


sociability and so on. We need to extend the realm of life... Rights


to other thinking, feeling creatures which feel pain and suffering the


same as us. If we would not want to inflict suffering on the humans, why


should we inflicted on others suffering... Nobody is suggesting


that human life is so precious that we should be allowed to just


liberally treat animals inhumanely. I was out cycling in the Lake


District at the beginning of the week on holiday, I fell off my bike


trying to swerve because a man was walking his dog, his instinctive


reaction, he was calming the dogs down, I was lying face down and he


suddenly said, are you all right? There is a disproportionate culture


in this country that we see animal suffering has a right at the expense


of humanity. Nobody wants animals to suffer that you cannot in anywhere


compare a monkey taking its own picture with vivisection and it is


disgraceful that the two R. I went out there to raise these


issues, this is what conservation Sitak -- photography does. To be


harangued by an animal rights organisation is a bit... That is


what we all have time for. Emma has some comments. You can command to


Facebooked life. Early in the programme we debated gender


stereotypes, Nanette Newman starred in some washing up liquid outfits in


the 80s. Let's remind you. Ferry's longer


lasting Certs mean it can do all this and more, much more. On average


50% more. And, of course, it is still as mild and gentle as ever. It


is not just a little bit better, it is 50% better than the best of the


rest. Nanette Newman, good morning. How do you feel about these new


rules from the advertising Standards Authority? Perhaps your advert would


not be made today? I think it is so ridiculous. They really


underestimate us women. We are cleverer and more savvy. To be


offended by somebody standing in a commercial and saying this product


is better than anything else, whether a man, a woman or whatever,


it is just a commercial. They are ridiculous that they will ban this.


There are much more important things. I do not think because you


stand there saying use this washing-up liquid or wash the floor


with this that you are demeaning women. You might not be demeaning it


but you might be influencing what a girl thinks her role could be.


Advertising is very powerful, you admit that? About it is not that


powerful and I do not know of any women who would feel they would be


rushed back to the kitchen sink because of an advert. Women can do


anything, we have got there, we are very intelligent, we can be


politicians, we can be anything that we choose


to be, bricklayers, wrestlers. I will be very happy to leave it on


that note, but can you confirm that your hands are still soft? I don't


know about that! Nanette Newman, Fairly. -- Fairy soft.


Many thanks to all our guests and you at home


Emma will be carrying on the conversation online.


I'll be talking to Peter Tatchell about a lifetime of campaigning.


Log on to facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive


In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole


Sunday Morning Live team, goodbye.


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