Episode 6 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 6

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As concerns about the environment grow, we ask

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Sooner or later the skies will be full of everyone does this every

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year. We will keep looking for space in the skies.

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This selfie taken by a monkey leads to a court battle over

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Do animals have the same rights as humans?

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The first female Doctor Who has been announced. The Daleks will be happy

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to exterminate The Doctor whatever the gender.

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But now advertisers are under threat too for gender stereotyping.

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Are ads like this a thing of the past?

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Five big masculine chunks of chocolate. It's not for girls.

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And Emma Barnett is here ready to let you have your say.

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We want to hear from you, which ever time dimension you yourselves in.

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And I'm sure you want to say some about our first topic, flying.

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You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter.

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Don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.

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Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.

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Texts are charged at your standard message rate.

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Or email us at [email protected]

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However you choose to get in touch, please don't forget to include your

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name so I can get you involved in our discussions.

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And later I'll be talking to the BAFTA-winning actor

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Adeel Akhtar, who doesn't shy away from controversial roles.

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Do you know what people will say? What will happen? We wouldn't be

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able to give you away. I play the father of the girl who he eventually

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by the end of the story kills through what is known as an honour

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killing. First, fasten your seat belts

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and let's talk about flying. Air traffic controllers

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are warning that UK skies Friday was the busiest day

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of the year, with air traffic controllers handling an estimated

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8,800 flights - a record number. They have called for a drastic

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modernisation in the way aircraft Enviromentalists too

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are concerned about the impact We'll discuss that in a moment

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after Samanthi Flanagan samples some views from passengers at Manchester

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Airport. Holidays, weekends, business. More

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and more of us are taking to the air. During peak times, the skies

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above the UK are bee hive of activity. I am at Manchester

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Airport, where a staggering 27 million passengers passed through

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every year. Today alone 100,000 people will take off and land in one

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of these. This is a really busy day for you at Manchester Airport and

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this is the busiest summer ever for UK air travel. We have had 718

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flights depart from the airport and it will get even busier over summer.

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As it stands, this weekend alone we will have 400,000 passengers. Do you

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enjoy being on an aeroplane? Is that part of the holiday? Yes. It is

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quicker and more convenient. The best thing is take off. What is the

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appeal of destinations you can only get to by aeroplane? Guaranteed warm

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weather. The experiences, different food, different people. Huge numbers

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of people passing through the airport. How do you cope with that

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capacity? We have just launched a ?1 billion regeneration programme which

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will see terminal two being redeveloped over ten years, meaning

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we can accommodate the passengers we have today, but it also means we can

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have up to 50 million passengers coming through our door. Do any of

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these passengers feel guilty about flying and the impact on the

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environment? We think about it but we don't do it often enough for it

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to have an impact. I don't give it another thought. I have looked at

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the sky and I have seen the line of smoke, thinking wow. Obviously the

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environmental impact and the price of the ticket includes the

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environment tax. I did think about it because the airport is paying for

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it. I think this every year that it isn't if I mentally friendly and we

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should do something else. We have had some great staycations. But I

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can count on one hand the number of days we have been able to go to the

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beach in the UK. While there is still some space in the sky, we will

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probably carry on. There are people who think we should fly less because

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of the impact on the environment. What do you think about that? We are

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still OK to be flying but we need to do so responsibly. The new aviation

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strategy which the government is now consulting on will make sure that we

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not only grow from an aviation perspective but we do so in a way

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that would be environmentally friendly. It is not about not doing

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it. It is doing it in the right way. In the meantime, people will just

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keep on flying. How many times do you fly each year? If we're lucky,

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twice. Just once this year and it something we look forward to.

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Hopefully in other words what the end of year without the kids. They

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don't know about this! -- hopefully another one towards the end of the

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year without the kids. Samanthi Flanagan at

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Manchester Airport. Joining us now are Angie Greaves,

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a radio broadcaster, Graham Hughes,

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an adventurer and author, Luke Gittos, a lawyer and writer,

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and Sally Pavey is a campaigner. You have got a world record, Graham.

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I am the fastest and first person to go to every country in the world

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without flying. Why on earth would you do that? I thought it would be

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fun and I raise money for charity and to prove it could be done and to

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knock down the boundaries and borders, and show that we can travel

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the world without flying. It is possible. Why is it important not to

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fly? The environmental impact, first and foremost. What we are doing to

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the skies is massive and it is having devastating affect on the

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smaller countries in the world, like Tuvalu, which is suffering from

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flooding every year. It is soil water, salt water, not just the

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water that goes away and doesn't leave anything behind. How do you

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manage to go to every country? Most people don't have the time and

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money. What a privilege but how do you do it? Moving between islands in

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the Pacific presents a lot of difficulties. Flying is cheaper,

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more convenient and quicker. As a broad aim, it is noble not to fly.

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It is better for all of us to fly less. No, flying is a modern

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miracle. Not all of us have the time to take trains and buses all over

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the world. An interesting fact is that the average house income of

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people using Heathrow Airport has been coming down and down. That is a

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good thing. More people are able to take flights. I think that is a

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really good thing. What is also important that this is saving time.

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Time is very precious. Flying allows us to spend more time doing

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productive creative things when we get to our destination. Not all of

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us want to be spending our time getting somewhere. We want to be

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doing things once we are there and that is really

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important. A couple of facts. Aviation contributes less than 6% of

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UK emissions. The impact is pretty negligible. Our carbon emissions are

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capped because we are a member of the EU ETS. So choosing to fly makes

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very little difference. And directly in my eye line, she is shaking her

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head and raising eyebrows! I don't agree with that, I'm afraid. You're

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talking about carbon trading. And it is not just the UK carbon, it is the

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trading. These aeroplanes are going to and from destinations so it is a

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much bigger thing of UK trading. What do you mean by that? They are

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doing the return journey? Exactly. You are flying to Europe so there is

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carbon trading going on in Europe and you fly back to us, and there is

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carbon trading. If we carry on the way we are going, we are going to

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preach. Carbon trading doesn't work. If you added on the cost onto each

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ticket, less people would fly. What we are talking about is less than

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half of the UK population actually fly. We are heavily subsidising an

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aviation industry. It is not a level playing field like car

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manufacturing. Aviation is heavily subsidised. So the prices should go

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up? No! While I am hearing what you are saying and I am in total

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agreement, the average family who saved their money and decides to go

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on holiday, is not thinking along the lines. If I want to see family

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in the United States or Barbados, where can I get my family together

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and leave the UK and be there within eight hours? Where can you have a

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huge amount of people in one go going to another destination? I will

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just say, while I really love your stories, I have also been a big

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believer that travelling is actually the best education of life. You have

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probably got stories galore. Absolutely. I don't want to see

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flight prices going up. If you take a few year, holiday with the kids,

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fine. It is people flying every other day when they don't need to

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because we have Skype and the internet and ways of having a

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conference called without actually going to New York. Shouldn't we

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change our way of thinking? We used to

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drive without seat belts and nobody would do that now. And we used to

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drive cars with exhausts and we can now drive electrically. But we can't

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fly electrically. At the moment. I know it will take a huge amount of

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battery. In the future there will be an environmental free way of flying.

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We are ready have them. In Europe we have the trains. But we don't use

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them. The idea of getting on a train and waking up in your destination in

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Europe would be brilliant and then trains would be quicker. It costs me

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more to travel by train from Gatwick to London than it does to fly to

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Europe. That is not sustainable. As someone who flies an awful lot, she

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even flew into the studio! That is harsh. It is not all about leisure.

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People use flights for business a lot of the time.

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I'm joined now by the businessman Bal Bansal in our Nottingham studio.

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How often do you fly for work? Probably once a month at least if

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not twice. People could argue in this day and age you could do those

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meetings, not sure how far you are flying, but you could do them over

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Skype or FaceTime, using the computer. Why bother flying to a

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meeting? You get so much from talking to people around the table.

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I understand that we have new technologies like Skype and we can

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talk and see people. But you can easily get distracted. I have been

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on Skype calls when someone gets distracted and something else is

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going on. If you are sitting round a table with someone and talking to

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them, there is so much more value you can get out of that. That is

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your argument for it. Do you ever feel guilty? You are taking many

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more flights than the average Brit. What do you feel about that? I don't

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feel guilty. Time is money. I need to get to places quickly. I need to

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talk to people, conversations, decisions to be made, and the

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quicker I can do that, the better. The amount of time you spend

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checking in, you could have spent that doing other deals. I can do

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emails, which I do sometimes, but also the process is getting quicker.

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The app has the boarding pass, so I don't queue for the ticket, I go

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through, onto the plane. Obviously security is essential. The seat on

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the plane. It is quicker now. And it will only get quicker. Would you

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like to do more flights? Would you like more options to fly at

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different times and have it be more flexible? Some people take trains.

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There are lots of low cost airlines now. I can get to Paris for ?40. Try

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to get a train ticket in England from lethal Nottingham to London and

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it costs ?60, ?80. -- from Leeds or Nottingham to London. Flying is more

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cost-effective. We were talking earlier in the discussion about

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environmental concerns overflying. Joining me from our Oxford

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studio now is Ian Jopson, Do you think enough is being done to

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make flying more environmentally friendly? I do. You would expect me

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to say that, working for Sustainable Aviation. You can't fly millions of

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people every day in a way that is eco friendly. You have got to burn

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millions of litres of oil. It is true. We need to accept that we have

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an environmental impact as an industry but it is also important to

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note that as an industry we are the third bid biggest aerospace sector

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in the world. We donate ?22 billion every year to the UK GDP. But of

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course there is environmental impact. Aeroplanes make noise, they

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emit carbon dioxide, they burn fuel. So what are we doing specifically to

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address that? What are you doing in the aviation industry?

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As a coalition of around 40 of the biggest aviation companies in the

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UK, we have set out a road map to 2050 where we see through various

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measures that I will come onto shortly that we can double the

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amount of traffic in UK airspace by 2050 whilst not actually increasing

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CO2 emissions. How will we do that? Firstly we will invest in new

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fuel-efficient aircraft. Since 2005 the UK airlines have invested some

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?37 billion in around 470 new aircraft, between 15 and 5% more

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fuel efficient than the ones they replaced. There are another 400 of

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those on order. We fly more fuel efficient and quieter aeroplanes. We

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also change the airspace to make it more efficient. Since 2008 we have

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made in 300 changes to UK airspace, saving around 5% of CO2 emissions,

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we have more to do. The airspace above the UK is increasingly

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congested, we are driving towards airspace modernisation which will

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make the routes that the aircraft fly more efficient, flying closer to

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their optimum levels, claiming smoothly to reduce fuel noise and

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descending more efficiently to reduce fuel and noise again. We are

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investing a huge amount in developing alternative fuels,

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sustainable alternative fuels. On the international stage, the

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industry is committed to by 2020 developing a global what is called a

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market-based measures scheme, effectively an emissions trading

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scheme which will reduce emissions between now... So 2020 and 2050. Ian

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Jopson, Djere Sustainable Aviation, that is what the aviation industry

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has to say. Back to the panel. Bal said it is important for business,

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should we be flying more? People say you can do it over Skype or the

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phone, this is human interaction we are talking about, travel enables

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human interaction and for the world to be a smaller place. It is not

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very long ago that if you lived in one country and someone else lived

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in a different one would be very hard to see and interact with them

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face to face. I think it would be awful if we just said people can do

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this over Skype, it would mean the end of face-to-face interaction.

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Aviation is an important tool for enabling human relationships. Sally

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is shaking her head is again. Many people have different views

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depending on where they live. Lots of people do not want the third

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Remnick -- third runway at Heathrow because they live on the flight

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path. There is a lot of NIMBY, not in my backyard. You can refuse Mata

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accuse people of being NIMBYs, there is huge drop in business travel

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which is only contributing 20%. This growth is low-cost. A huge drop

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because...? People are not travelling for business as much.

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That is not on airport, that is across the country. I love Ian

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Tibbetts, but new aircraft, yes, not the low-cost ones. They are

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something like 25-year-old aircraft. EasyJet are investing but they do

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not too long haul, you have to look at the long haul. If I may touch on

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the noise factor, Ian touches on these streamlined ones, they are

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concentrating putting motorways above peoples homes, they are

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getting every single arrival and departure. That is how they cram in

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more aircraft and save the CO2, there is no consideration about the

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noise on the ground I am particularly concerned at the fact

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that everyone here seems to want to put profit above morality.

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If we continue to do that, we will still be the world leader in

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slavery, which were used to be. You have to stop at some point and say

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what will happen in the future? If the polar ice caps melt we will lose

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every beach in the world. It is all very well going on a beach holiday

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now, when there is no beach in 20 years, how do you explain that to

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the grandkids? Ehmer? Bill says I don't care about

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the environment, being frank, I have no children or grandchildren, I

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want my travels as convenient and fast as possible. Stuart says I can

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fly from Edinburgh to Cardiff in an hours ?80 return, compared to an

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eight-hour journey and ?230 on the train. Nadia says I refuse to fly

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anywhere in Europe we can travel to public transport, planes are causing

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untold damage to the skies. Another viewer says maybe economics can save

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the world, budget airlines are cheaper than trains, increased costs

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would make us think twice. Another e-mail, most families have

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won far -- one holiday a year when they fly with a full plane full of

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people. What about rich people who fly whole aeroplanes for just one

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person? There is a concept that people who

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fly you... Are selfish, the first person said he did not care about

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the environment. I care about the environment. Profit or environment?

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Climate change, we have to deal with that problem. The problem with

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places like you mentioned is a lack of infrastructure. Floods are a

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problem in the poor countries that need to be developed to cope with

:19:50.:19:53.

climate change, it is a different issue. It is their problem?! It is a

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problem with infrastructure and development. We have floats in the

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UK. It is not a moral issue about taking a holiday. Taking a holiday

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is not akin to slavery, there is nothing morally wrong with taking a

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cheap flight. This is about... This is about leisure time. More and more

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poor people can take holidays, that is the key dimension. I think there

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is snobbery around cheap flights, the people taking cheap flights are

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the people who can only afford cheap flights, the people who take one

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holiday a year, at max, to spend some time abroad. There is a

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snobbery as if that is not a worthwhile thing to do. I completely

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agree on cheap flights, I think they should stay. I think the train fares

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need to come down so we have an option.

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ALL TALK AT ONCE This discussion has certainly taken off, but we need to

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landed for the time being. -- land it.

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Adeel Akhtar has always been admired as a go-to actor with parts

:20:57.:20:59.

in prestigious productions such as The Night Manager

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But this year he received a deserved public accolade when he became

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the first non-white performer to win best male actor at the BAFTAs

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for his performance in the hard-hitting BBC drama

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I went to meet him to talk about his career and his upbringing

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Yes, he is here. Yes, it is what we suspect. You can call me Jas. I

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continue that your husband is an extremely persistent man.

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Dramas like The Night Manager, Appletree Yard, we will get onto

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some of the other work in a moment. Very diverse work. What first drew

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you to acting? When I was growing up, whenever I turned on television

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and saw Asian stories being told there were things like My Beautiful

:21:55.:21:59.

Launderette, Buddha Of Suburbia, Bhaji On The Beach. They were very

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original stories being told about Asians and there experience. I was

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drawn to it. You wanted to be part of that world? I did. Murdered By My

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Father, let's talk about it. You're beautiful. Like your mother. She'd

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be proud. Just remind me and everyone else,

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your role in this particular drama? I play the father of a girl who he

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eventually, by the end of the story, kills through what is known as an

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honour killing. You've been promised already, that's

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all that matters! Do you know what people will say?! What will happen?!

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To Alice?! We would not even be able to give you away!

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It is a story about pride. We all fall victim to that in our own way.

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The idea of culture and religion, ethnicity, sexuality, it bleeds away

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and that is what we are trying to get to.

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You won the BAFTA for that. That must have been an amazing feeling,

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the first non-white actor to win Best Male in the TV batters? What do

:23:24.:23:30.

you make of that? Amazing. Pride and joy to think that somebody looking

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out there, a younger version of me, might find some inspiration. I think

:23:38.:23:42.

you're looking for the phrase role model but do not want to say it?

:23:43.:23:47.

That would be nice. Other Asian actors I have spoken to have limited

:23:48.:23:53.

roles for them, whether it is shopkeepers all the stereotypes. I

:23:54.:23:57.

suppose that is an issue? It was, when I was first acting it was very

:23:58.:24:03.

narrow and I only got certain roles. There are real obstacles that I have

:24:04.:24:07.

gone through and other Asian actors have gone through. But I try not to

:24:08.:24:12.

look at that. I just tried to do what I do, the best I can. You grew

:24:13.:24:17.

up in a Muslim household, was religion a big part of life? Sort

:24:18.:24:23.

of. I grew up as great a moderate Muslim. I definitely was aware of

:24:24.:24:30.

other Muslim kids who had a lot more strict upbringing than I had. Were

:24:31.:24:35.

you religious yourself, did you go through that stage? It was more a

:24:36.:24:40.

nod to it, I would not eat pork or drink, but when my sister went to

:24:41.:24:44.

university she became a practising Muslim and through her I was

:24:45.:24:49.

practising for quite a chunk of my teenage years, praying five times a

:24:50.:24:55.

day and stuff. 15, 16, I just stopped. I got to a point where the

:24:56.:25:01.

questions that it used to answer certainly were not as important as

:25:02.:25:06.

other questions I was asking. My life took a different direction,

:25:07.:25:09.

really. And your life took a different

:25:10.:25:12.

direction may be from what your dad wanted? In terms of career. What did

:25:13.:25:18.

he make of the acting? My dad was and still is quite strict.

:25:19.:25:23.

Understandably so, he came over at a particular time from Pakistan, it

:25:24.:25:27.

was really tough for him to find work and provide for his family, so

:25:28.:25:33.

he just wanted me and my sister to be professionals. Ironically, your

:25:34.:25:38.

first big break was as a hapless terrorist. In the British film For

:25:39.:25:43.

Lions. You fly to the target, when I dial

:25:44.:25:54.

this you go to heaven, Brook Road. -- brother Crow. Did you have mixed

:25:55.:25:58.

feelings about joking about terrorism? Terrorism? Not really, if

:25:59.:26:05.

you do it well it is truthful and you can't knock it. Running squat

:26:06.:26:10.

down, holding explosives, things you should not laugh at but really

:26:11.:26:14.

funny. What did your dad make of it? I think he laughed. I take it he is

:26:15.:26:21.

on board by now? Yes. Did the BAFTA help out? He is not outspoken about

:26:22.:26:29.

his feelings, he would just go, you know, well done. I put it in pride

:26:30.:26:34.

of place in the living room. I have just had a little baby and it is a

:26:35.:26:38.

bit chaotic in the house and I found it behind the Weetabix packet in the

:26:39.:26:44.

kitchen and we haven't moved it since. It's got to fit into life,

:26:45.:26:51.

doesn't it? Thank you so much for talking to us. I have really enjoyed

:26:52.:26:53.

it. Still to come on

:26:54.:26:56.

Sunday Morning Live: The shipping container turned

:26:57.:26:58.

into a des res for the homeless. It gave me an opportunity to

:26:59.:27:08.

integrate back into society properly and have my own space.

:27:09.:27:13.

This week began with the announcement that the Daleks'

:27:14.:27:15.

arch enemy Doctor Who would transform into female form

:27:16.:27:17.

Jodie Whittaker will break the all-male mould by taking

:27:18.:27:21.

Later in the week, advertisers were put on notice that they would

:27:22.:27:27.

be facing tougher rules from their watchdog,

:27:28.:27:28.

the Advertising Standards Authority, on gender portrayal.

:27:29.:27:37.

I'm reorganising my living space... Pampering Hector... Rehearsing with

:27:38.:27:48.

the girl Starc before writing down my innermost thoughts. That's

:27:49.:27:54.

nothing compared to captain awesome's day. Island cut the enemy

:27:55.:28:04.

secret Starc -- I'll uncover enemy secret...

:28:05.:28:11.

It doesn't just happen by magic. Behind every great Christmas,

:28:12.:28:15.

there's mum. Women! Don't expect any help on

:28:16.:28:30.

Thursday! It's going to be OK for an advert to

:28:31.:28:35.

show a woman shopping or cleaning or for a man doing the DIY task in the

:28:36.:28:39.

home. What we will be looking for is adverts that go beyond that and

:28:40.:28:44.

paint a picture that it is a woman 's to tide you back to her family

:28:45.:28:48.

who have trashed the house, that is her job in life. We are worried

:28:49.:28:53.

about that sort of depiction. Similarly adverts mocking men for

:28:54.:28:58.

being hopeless at performing straightforward parental or

:28:59.:29:00.

household tasks just because they are a man.

:29:01.:29:01.

So the ad men and ad women will be under scrutiny.

:29:02.:29:04.

"About time," say some, while others say it's another

:29:05.:29:06.

So are we too sensitive to stereotypes?

:29:07.:29:09.

Joining us now are Angela Epstein, a journalist and broadcaster.

:29:10.:29:12.

Otegha Uwagba is a writer and brand consultant who has

:29:13.:29:15.

Emma Dabiri is a social historian and feminist.

:29:16.:29:26.

Obviously I need to come to you first since I got your name wrong!

:29:27.:29:42.

Isn't this going over the top? A bit too PC conscious? Regulating

:29:43.:29:47.

advertising for something like this? It isn't over the top at all. If you

:29:48.:29:52.

listen to what the guy speaking were saying, it is very reasonable. It is

:29:53.:29:56.

not saying that women can't do any domestic work in an advert, and men

:29:57.:30:00.

can't do anything traditionally assumed to be the man's role. They

:30:01.:30:08.

are looking at more pernicious messages that are firm stereotypes.

:30:09.:30:11.

It is not as though advertising is a benign industry that seeks to

:30:12.:30:18.

disseminate information. It absolutely is trying to condition us

:30:19.:30:24.

to think in certain ways. And it is absolutely necessary that we have a

:30:25.:30:27.

regulatory body that makes sure that is not done in ways that are

:30:28.:30:31.

extremely damaging, which has often been the case in the past. The

:30:32.:30:35.

Advertising Standards Authority chief executive said that tougher

:30:36.:30:41.

standards can play an important role in tackling inequalities. I think

:30:42.:30:43.

the whole thing is a load of rubbish, to be quite honest. At the

:30:44.:30:48.

moment we have a female Prime Minister, female monarch and the

:30:49.:30:50.

most powerful person in the judiciary is a woman, and they have

:30:51.:30:59.

always days back row all been brought up -- and they have all been

:31:00.:31:03.

brought up watching Fairy Liquid adverts. But we have the gender pay

:31:04.:31:09.

gap and inequality. I should earn the same as you if I am doing the

:31:10.:31:12.

same job, without question. I don't care whose face is on the banknote,

:31:13.:31:19.

man or a woman, so long as I get the same number of banknotes. But gender

:31:20.:31:25.

stereotypes catch the accident of what is out there. There are

:31:26.:31:29.

exaggerated truths. I am Jewish, a mother with kids, and if I fuss and

:31:30.:31:34.

say you haven't eaten your dinner, I get colleagues saying I am a

:31:35.:31:38.

protective Jewish mother. I'm not offended by that because it is

:31:39.:31:41.

taking a little side of my character and making it into an exaggerated

:31:42.:31:45.

truth. That happened in advertising. Women like to keep their houses

:31:46.:31:49.

clean and nice and it doesn't stop them being high-flying corporate

:31:50.:31:53.

lawyers because the two are not mutually exclusive and advertising

:31:54.:31:57.

just plays on that. You have worked in advertising. I am all for the

:31:58.:32:05.

regulation. In journalism there is the free speech argument, which I

:32:06.:32:09.

understand. Advertising is about influencing people to change their

:32:10.:32:11.

behaviour and it needs to be regulated like other businesses. As

:32:12.:32:15.

for the stereotypes you just discussed, the protective Jewish

:32:16.:32:18.

mother is benign. A stereotype that is not benign our stereotypes

:32:19.:32:24.

associated with black men, black women, people of colour, disabled

:32:25.:32:28.

people, gay people. Stereotypes kill. The reason Trayvon Martin was

:32:29.:32:33.

shot down is because there is a stereotype black men being criminals

:32:34.:32:37.

and is dangerous. I don't remember seeing any positive black role

:32:38.:32:40.

models on television during the 80s and it didn't turn me into a

:32:41.:32:44.

criminal. They were always bad guys. I am doing something very different

:32:45.:32:48.

and so are you. Of course but it is fair to say that we are probably

:32:49.:32:54.

exceptions. If you turn on the BBC, any TV channel, there are not that

:32:55.:32:58.

many people of colour who are not playing the council estate

:32:59.:33:01.

stereotype. It is important that we have better examples and role

:33:02.:33:05.

models. Take us into an advertising board room. Are there lots of women

:33:06.:33:09.

and black people? In the boardrooms, there are not. It is generally white

:33:10.:33:14.

men and it is something I always found deeply problematic and I am

:33:15.:33:19.

trying to change that with my brand. There are black people in

:33:20.:33:21.

advertising and women but they are at the bottom. The decision makers

:33:22.:33:25.

and strategists are white men and that needs to change. When we are

:33:26.:33:31.

talking about regulation, we're also talking about protecting them. The

:33:32.:33:35.

stereotype of men not being able to cook and do things, which comes into

:33:36.:33:39.

this. I don't think men or women need protecting from stereotypes. I

:33:40.:33:43.

don't know any women who had their life choices determined by adverts.

:33:44.:33:48.

They don't exist. If you look across the board, women are smashing gender

:33:49.:33:52.

stereotypes in all areas of society. They are outperforming men in

:33:53.:33:56.

professional life and education. They are leaving any stereotypical

:33:57.:33:59.

vision of what women should do in the dust. The reality is that women

:34:00.:34:03.

can cope with stereotypes. If you look at the research that the ASA

:34:04.:34:13.

put into this, it is junk. They treat it as fun, stereotypes. People

:34:14.:34:20.

recognise that it is superficial. What about little kids that are

:34:21.:34:24.

watching? People can make a judgment about what an adverts reflect real

:34:25.:34:28.

life. Everyone recognises when an advert is making a stereotypical

:34:29.:34:31.

point. If we are saying that adverts don't influence, what is the point

:34:32.:34:36.

of them? They do influence and they do have an important role. The point

:34:37.:34:40.

is that people can make informed decisions. But do they? Nobody knows

:34:41.:34:45.

any woman who has had their life choices affected by what appeared in

:34:46.:34:50.

an advert. They don't exist. It is not advertisement alone. It is

:34:51.:34:56.

multilayered. All of these ideas about what women should do and

:34:57.:35:00.

should be are coming from across society and advertising is just one

:35:01.:35:06.

part of that. Angela, can I put this to you. The Yorkie advert. How did

:35:07.:35:14.

it make you feel? It made me laugh. Not for women? I just didn't care. I

:35:15.:35:18.

have a 13-year-old daughter with three older brothers. She should

:35:19.:35:22.

either be a tremendous tomboy, brought up with mud and dirt and

:35:23.:35:25.

footballs, and not because I have said they have got to play with

:35:26.:35:29.

those things because they are boys. The instead, biology, whatever it is

:35:30.:35:32.

as making them do those things, and she loves dolls and poor fee and

:35:33.:35:36.

glittery accessories. She said she wants to be a human rights lawyer

:35:37.:35:48.

one day and the next she wants to run a beauty salon. She has seen me

:35:49.:35:52.

being a working mother. I don't want her choices to be diminished. I

:35:53.:35:56.

don't think Fairy Liquid adverts will limit choice. It makes us laugh

:35:57.:36:00.

and we are consumers. We want to know if that bottle of washing up

:36:01.:36:04.

liquid will do the job. I have a 19-year-old daughter and I was

:36:05.:36:07.

uncomfortable looking back at that Yorkie advert. What do you think?

:36:08.:36:11.

That advert I didn't actually find that problematic. For little girls?

:36:12.:36:19.

It is an exaggerated example of a gender stereotype. If you are

:36:20.:36:24.

slightly older and more intelligent, you can see that it is an

:36:25.:36:28.

exaggerated example. What are problematic things like the beach

:36:29.:36:31.

body advert, which shows the negative stereotype of what women's

:36:32.:36:34.

bodies should look like and those are that young girls and teenagers

:36:35.:36:39.

see and internalise as what they should do. It is the same thing with

:36:40.:36:45.

adverts about mothers looking after Christmas. Why can't dads look after

:36:46.:36:50.

Christmas and do the housework? We are still talking about it 20 years

:36:51.:36:54.

later. It was such a rarity to reverse the stereotype like that.

:36:55.:36:58.

Let's take a non-commercial break and go to Emma. Very good. Keith

:36:59.:37:05.

says stereotyping happens because stereotypes actually exist. Burying

:37:06.:37:09.

your head in the sand and tarting will not stop them happening. Susan

:37:10.:37:13.

says if we are eager to accept that women can do anything, we should

:37:14.:37:18.

also embrace that we can be perfectly happy in the home roles

:37:19.:37:22.

that we have held for generations. David says that stereotypes have an

:37:23.:37:25.

effect in real life so let's do something about it. There says it is

:37:26.:37:29.

about time that there was more equality in gender and the way it is

:37:30.:37:34.

portrayed. Stereotypes should be wiped out and we need to remember

:37:35.:37:39.

that anyone can do anything. Marie says the reason a stereotype becomes

:37:40.:37:42.

a stereotype in the first place is because it is a truism. Let people

:37:43.:37:47.

be people and teach children the same thing as well. Thank you. And

:37:48.:37:50.

thank you to our panel. I'm afraid we are out of time on this.

:37:51.:37:59.

Homelessness is a growing problem in the UK, manifested most starkly

:38:00.:38:01.

by those sleeping rough on the streets of our cities.

:38:02.:38:04.

That reportedly amounted to more than 4,000 people

:38:05.:38:06.

A Bristol businessman concerned about the issue has decided that

:38:07.:38:10.

rather than give money to the homeless he would find

:38:11.:38:12.

a unique way of helping those with nowhere to sleep,

:38:13.:38:14.

Today I am in Bristol and I am house-hunting. This isn't exactly a

:38:15.:38:22.

prime location but it is the beginning of one man's dream. That

:38:23.:38:29.

man is Jasper Thompson, who is bringing a whole new meaning to

:38:30.:38:36.

homes under the hammer. Hello. I'm very busy at the moment. I'm good,

:38:37.:38:41.

thank you. This is the site! I can hear lots of noise and I can see

:38:42.:38:45.

lots of container type things. What is going on? Today we are completing

:38:46.:38:52.

this shipping container. It is actually a shipping container.

:38:53.:38:59.

Jasper is transforming these 3.5 tonne steel structures into flats

:39:00.:39:03.

for the homeless. This one was donated to us by a local shipping

:39:04.:39:08.

company. Can you show me around? Absolutely. Mind your step. This is

:39:09.:39:18.

the bathroom. And we have a living area. This is going to be a proper

:39:19.:39:29.

home for someone? A proper home for someone. I appreciate the help you

:39:30.:39:32.

have given me over the last few months. Jasper has never worked with

:39:33.:39:37.

homeless people before. He has been in the army, he has worked in

:39:38.:39:41.

private security in Afghanistan and Iraq, and now he runs a Jamaican

:39:42.:39:45.

restaurant in Bristol. He came up with this novel plan to put a roof

:39:46.:39:49.

over people's heads last winter. The shipping containers came about

:39:50.:39:52.

through the use of what we have got on this site at the moment. It was

:39:53.:39:57.

previously a car wash. I spoke to one of the guys who left it here and

:39:58.:40:01.

he said I could utilise it. I put six guys in the containers during

:40:02.:40:04.

the winter months, just to help them. Just to get out of the cold

:40:05.:40:11.

for a bit. I decided it was a good idea and I decided to convert them

:40:12.:40:16.

into flats. He has also converted his friends and restaurant customers

:40:17.:40:20.

into workers to help out. He has now persuaded a bunch of local tradesmen

:40:21.:40:25.

to give up their time for free. A hard-working man here called Gary.

:40:26.:40:29.

What are you doing today? Just a bit of security. Helping out with the

:40:30.:40:36.

plumbing. What do you think about this project? It helps people to get

:40:37.:40:42.

off the street. It helps with drug problems and hopefully help them get

:40:43.:40:46.

back into life. Another helping hand today is from Lee, who was about to

:40:47.:40:49.

move into one of the shipping containers. He has been homeless for

:40:50.:40:54.

18 months, sleeping rough in woodland. How did you become

:40:55.:41:01.

homeless? I was working as a head chef for about eight years. I was

:41:02.:41:05.

under a hell of a lot of pressure all the time. I just couldn't really

:41:06.:41:10.

function any more as a human. I started to have a meltdown, really.

:41:11.:41:15.

I had to pack in work because I was so stressed out. I didn't have any

:41:16.:41:20.

way of supporting myself and I ended up homeless. While we have been

:41:21.:41:26.

talking, Jasper has been out to get supplies and has come across another

:41:27.:41:30.

homeless man in need of shelter. We were coming back from the shops. The

:41:31.:41:35.

van broke down. And as I walked around the corner, there was a line

:41:36.:41:39.

of disused cars. I found him in the car. What is your name? Dale? Hello.

:41:40.:41:46.

How long have you been living in the car? Since mats. And why? The break

:41:47.:41:53.

up of a relationship. -- six months. What was it like? Variable. Some

:41:54.:42:02.

days I had nothing. What have you come here for today? Just something

:42:03.:42:08.

to eat and a chat. In this unusual community it is not just local

:42:09.:42:11.

tradesmen volunteering time and skills. The future tenants of these

:42:12.:42:15.

containers, the homeless people themselves, have got to pitch in as

:42:16.:42:19.

well. It is really important to get these homeless guys working on the

:42:20.:42:23.

containers. It gives them self belief, self-worth. A structure to

:42:24.:42:30.

their day. And potentially a home at the end of it. This man has his eye

:42:31.:42:38.

on this container home. He has been on the streets until recently

:42:39.:42:40.

struggling with drug addiction. I have been sleeping rough for six

:42:41.:42:45.

months. Now I am here, working as part of a community, helping myself

:42:46.:42:48.

in the first place and helping other homeless people to rebuild their

:42:49.:42:54.

lives. I am blessed, you know? Jasper reckons that all in the

:42:55.:42:57.

containers should cost around ?10,000 each to buy and refurbished.

:42:58.:43:03.

But thanks to the hard-working volunteers and donated fittings, so

:43:04.:43:08.

far they have got nothing. He is planning another 20 units in Bristol

:43:09.:43:11.

and he hopes they will take off nationwide. The first container is

:43:12.:43:16.

now a finished home and Lee will soon have a roof over his head. How

:43:17.:43:23.

are you doing? Very good. How are you? Ready for the big move? I am

:43:24.:43:31.

indeed. I hope you get sorted, mate. A proper bed. And a shower! It is

:43:32.:43:41.

quite big and roomy. It is like a little hotel shower. It is going to

:43:42.:43:47.

give me some security, an opportunity to integrate back into

:43:48.:43:50.

society properly. I can find work. I can live here, do bits and pieces

:43:51.:43:54.

and just have my own space. People taking selfies like this

:43:55.:44:00.

is a routine sight these days. But a famous selfie has now

:44:01.:44:03.

ended up as the subject of a court battle in America.

:44:04.:44:13.

That's because the picture The image went viral with millions

:44:14.:44:15.

of people viewing it. Photographer David Slater set up

:44:16.:44:19.

the shot and so claims copyright. But the animal rights group

:44:20.:44:22.

Peta says the macaque monkey is the owner,

:44:23.:44:25.

and has taken the matter to court The case highlights the broader

:44:26.:44:27.

issue of whether animals deserve the same rights as humans,

:44:28.:44:32.

which we'll move on to shortly. But first let's talk

:44:33.:44:36.

about this dispute over Joining the panel now

:44:37.:44:38.

are David Slater, the photographer whose camera was used to take

:44:39.:44:43.

the monkey selfie, Elisa Allen, the director of Peta UK,

:44:44.:44:47.

Peter Tatchell, a human rights campaigner, and Angela

:44:48.:44:49.

Epstein is still with us. We have to start with you, David.

:44:50.:45:03.

Tell us the story, B is the sort of photographs you normally take? I am

:45:04.:45:07.

a conservation photographer, it has been my passion and play for 20

:45:08.:45:11.

years. I was in a tropical rainforest where these macaques

:45:12.:45:14.

live, so much so that they befriended me over the days that I

:45:15.:45:19.

was with them. I thought if I set my camera up on a tripod and offered

:45:20.:45:24.

them a button to press, a cable release, no doubt their natural

:45:25.:45:28.

curiosity would be to bring them in, press the button. The noise of the

:45:29.:45:32.

camera excited them, I press the button, made the noise, they would

:45:33.:45:36.

look on the lens and take their own photograph. It is a fantastic

:45:37.:45:41.

photograph, but the key thing is you enticed them that they press the

:45:42.:45:46.

button? I am definitely the creator of this, it is my intent to my

:45:47.:45:51.

creativity and also my experience with the monkeys that I knew there

:45:52.:45:55.

was a great chance they would press the button. The problem is people

:45:56.:46:00.

now think that pressing the button is taking a photograph. Elisa Allen,

:46:01.:46:07.

why is it important that the monkey has the rights to the photo? Very

:46:08.:46:13.

quickly, US copyright law is very clear on the issue, it does not

:46:14.:46:17.

matter who owns the camera, it is the individual who presses the

:46:18.:46:20.

shutter button who is the creator of the image. I really want to look at

:46:21.:46:26.

the wider issue here, that is if this case is successful, this would

:46:27.:46:31.

be the very first time that an animal has been declared the owner

:46:32.:46:36.

of property rather than simply seen as a piece of property, which is how

:46:37.:46:43.

the law currently use animals. There is not anything inherently extreme

:46:44.:46:47.

about this lawsuit, if we look at 100 years ago women were not allowed

:46:48.:46:52.

to own property, women were seen as the property of men, as were

:46:53.:46:57.

children. Thankfully society has evolved and history tells us the law

:46:58.:47:02.

evolves with it. Animal rights is the same as gender rights, in

:47:03.:47:07.

equality? Certainly, Peter can speak about this issue and the into link

:47:08.:47:10.

between human rights and animal rights, but in this case we are

:47:11.:47:16.

questioning, just as your age, your race don't determine whether or not

:47:17.:47:21.

you are entitled to rights, maybe your species should not? Lots of

:47:22.:47:28.

people will be watching this and they will say that a lovely

:47:29.:47:30.

organisation which looks after animals are bullies and many people

:47:31.:47:36.

and companies are to be bad things, monkeys as pets, circuses, wherever

:47:37.:47:39.

they are being treated inhumanely. Surely you should be picking those

:47:40.:47:46.

fights. Look at David? Exactly. He has gone there to raise the profile

:47:47.:47:51.

of these monkeys and you are attacking him. This is not a

:47:52.:47:55.

personal issue, David and I spent a good bit of time just getting to

:47:56.:47:58.

know each other and it is safe to say that we agree on more than we

:47:59.:48:04.

disagree on. It is not a personal matter, this is a copyright dispute

:48:05.:48:08.

and it does not change the fact that David is trying to claim ownership

:48:09.:48:14.

over an image that he did not take and is attempting to profit from an

:48:15.:48:17.

image that is not or should not be his. Peter, there are people around

:48:18.:48:22.

the world really struggling, marginalised, no control over their

:48:23.:48:25.

lives, being abused. There are so many people like that. Does this

:48:26.:48:29.

undermine their battle when you are talking about a monkey? Not at all,

:48:30.:48:34.

human rights and animal rights come from the same place, it is about the

:48:35.:48:39.

prevention of suffering. Is a monkey suffering because it has not got

:48:40.:48:43.

money from a picture? A group that is a different issue. In that case I

:48:44.:48:47.

would say if a randomly and accidentally pressed the shutter

:48:48.:48:54.

than the monkeys should not have copyright, if the monkey had

:48:55.:48:57.

knowledge by watching a human and then press the shutter and they did

:48:58.:49:01.

so intentionally and deliberately, then they should have copyright.

:49:02.:49:05.

Knowledge and intention is key to the creative process and creativity

:49:06.:49:11.

gives copyright. Angela, many people are told will be outraged, saying

:49:12.:49:17.

did you just hear yourself?! -- many people at home. I had to check the

:49:18.:49:22.

date on the paper to see that it is not able the first! I abhor any

:49:23.:49:27.

cruelty to animals, we need to robustly legislate animal research,

:49:28.:49:31.

although it is a critical part of evolution in order to save people

:49:32.:49:35.

from disease and illness, but I think this is a spectacular own goal

:49:36.:49:45.

by Peta because all your potential good workers undermined by the fact

:49:46.:49:48.

that David took it upon himself to make this enterprising journey, did

:49:49.:49:50.

not hurt the monkeys in any way, lets, shot and created the image and

:49:51.:49:53.

these monkeys happened to take the photograph. Copyright means your

:49:54.:49:56.

image or your personal intellectual property is not compromised. I

:49:57.:50:01.

assume the macaques are still living happily, they are not thinking we

:50:02.:50:05.

could have gone to Harrods with the proceeds?! It is part of the bigger

:50:06.:50:09.

picture. The little man is being made an example to be part of the

:50:10.:50:14.

bigger picture. The bigger picture, inhumane hunting, they are real and

:50:15.:50:19.

important issues. With the greatest respect, this is a joke that you are

:50:20.:50:23.

doing this, your organisation should be hanging its head in shame. Strong

:50:24.:50:33.

words from Angela. You as star these monkeys suffering. The answer is

:50:34.:50:41.

yes. Their populations are dwindling, they decreased by about

:50:42.:50:46.

20% of the last 20 years. Their habitats are being destroyed at an

:50:47.:50:49.

alarming rate, they are poached for Bush meets, they are in dire need of

:50:50.:50:55.

help. They could certainly benefit from the proceeds of this copyright.

:50:56.:51:07.

This case is about the fundamental rights of these highly

:51:08.:51:10.

sophisticated, highly intelligent animals. They reckon site does not

:51:11.:51:15.

recognise themselves in the mirror. ALL TALK AT ONCE Emma has somebody

:51:16.:51:22.

with a religious perspective on this.

:51:23.:51:24.

I'm joined now by Nitin Mehta, founder of the Hindu

:51:25.:51:27.

To all animals deserve the same respect, the same rights as humans?

:51:28.:51:37.

Good morning. According to the Hindu perspective, animals feel pain and

:51:38.:51:44.

to have emotions, they feel pain and pleasure. As human beings it is only

:51:45.:51:49.

right that we are called them those rights. As Mahatma Gandhi said, is a

:51:50.:51:57.

superior species we have to be more compassionate to other forms of life

:51:58.:52:02.

that we live with on this planet. Where does that end? Let's say you

:52:03.:52:06.

were being attacked by an animal, you would do everything you could to

:52:07.:52:10.

defend yourself? Absolutely, that is how it should be. But we are hunting

:52:11.:52:19.

animals, we are doing experiments on them, tens of thousands are put in a

:52:20.:52:24.

shed. Some of those experiments, people have campaigned for those

:52:25.:52:31.

experiments to be more ethical, they have saved many lives, advances in

:52:32.:52:35.

cancer treatments have come through by experimenting on animals. I am

:52:36.:52:40.

not sure about that. There are lots of side effects. Animals have a

:52:41.:52:43.

different metabolism to human beings. As Mahatma Gandhi said, for

:52:44.:52:50.

him, the life of a lamb is as sacred as the life of a human being. As a

:52:51.:52:56.

superior disease we had to do better with the animal kingdom. This kind

:52:57.:53:02.

of violence that we are carrying out on animals... It is all very well

:53:03.:53:09.

saying this is a vegetarian, millions of people will eat meat and

:53:10.:53:13.

continue to eat meat, does that not make what you are doing slightly

:53:14.:53:19.

futile? At the time people thought colonialism or slavery would always

:53:20.:53:22.

be there, eventually it was abolished. Eventually I think there

:53:23.:53:28.

will be a time when not for the sake of the animals but the human race we

:53:29.:53:32.

have to really... Nitin Mehta, we had to leave it there. Not for the

:53:33.:53:38.

animals' say, but the humans' sake. If you had to save a life, would it

:53:39.:53:44.

be and animal life or a human one? Take off your Peta hat and speak

:53:45.:53:48.

personally. I don't know the specifics. I have no idea what I

:53:49.:53:54.

would do in a moment of panic. You would save an animal ahead of a

:53:55.:54:01.

human? In a moment of panic and crisis, I don't get any single one

:54:02.:54:06.

of us can predict. Is that your viewpoint? The bigger picture, there

:54:07.:54:11.

is a great ape Project which proposes that great apes like

:54:12.:54:19.

gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans and bonobos are so humanlike that

:54:20.:54:23.

they deserve basic legal protections such as the right to life,

:54:24.:54:29.

protection against suffering and freedom from incarceration. I think

:54:30.:54:35.

that is the way to go. I think we need to recognise that we humans are

:54:36.:54:41.

not unique in our capacity for feelings, emotions, language,

:54:42.:54:45.

sociability and so on. We need to extend the realm of life... Rights

:54:46.:54:50.

to other thinking, feeling creatures which feel pain and suffering the

:54:51.:54:56.

same as us. If we would not want to inflict suffering on the humans, why

:54:57.:55:01.

should we inflicted on others suffering... Nobody is suggesting

:55:02.:55:04.

that human life is so precious that we should be allowed to just

:55:05.:55:09.

liberally treat animals inhumanely. I was out cycling in the Lake

:55:10.:55:12.

District at the beginning of the week on holiday, I fell off my bike

:55:13.:55:16.

trying to swerve because a man was walking his dog, his instinctive

:55:17.:55:22.

reaction, he was calming the dogs down, I was lying face down and he

:55:23.:55:26.

suddenly said, are you all right? There is a disproportionate culture

:55:27.:55:31.

in this country that we see animal suffering has a right at the expense

:55:32.:55:35.

of humanity. Nobody wants animals to suffer that you cannot in anywhere

:55:36.:55:39.

compare a monkey taking its own picture with vivisection and it is

:55:40.:55:47.

disgraceful that the two R. I went out there to raise these

:55:48.:55:51.

issues, this is what conservation Sitak -- photography does. To be

:55:52.:55:58.

harangued by an animal rights organisation is a bit... That is

:55:59.:56:06.

what we all have time for. Emma has some comments. You can command to

:56:07.:56:16.

Facebooked life. Early in the programme we debated gender

:56:17.:56:20.

stereotypes, Nanette Newman starred in some washing up liquid outfits in

:56:21.:56:23.

the 80s. Let's remind you. Ferry's longer

:56:24.:56:29.

lasting Certs mean it can do all this and more, much more. On average

:56:30.:56:35.

50% more. And, of course, it is still as mild and gentle as ever. It

:56:36.:56:40.

is not just a little bit better, it is 50% better than the best of the

:56:41.:56:45.

rest. Nanette Newman, good morning. How do you feel about these new

:56:46.:56:50.

rules from the advertising Standards Authority? Perhaps your advert would

:56:51.:56:58.

not be made today? I think it is so ridiculous. They really

:56:59.:57:00.

underestimate us women. We are cleverer and more savvy. To be

:57:01.:57:03.

offended by somebody standing in a commercial and saying this product

:57:04.:57:07.

is better than anything else, whether a man, a woman or whatever,

:57:08.:57:13.

it is just a commercial. They are ridiculous that they will ban this.

:57:14.:57:16.

There are much more important things. I do not think because you

:57:17.:57:22.

stand there saying use this washing-up liquid or wash the floor

:57:23.:57:26.

with this that you are demeaning women. You might not be demeaning it

:57:27.:57:30.

but you might be influencing what a girl thinks her role could be.

:57:31.:57:35.

Advertising is very powerful, you admit that? About it is not that

:57:36.:57:39.

powerful and I do not know of any women who would feel they would be

:57:40.:57:42.

rushed back to the kitchen sink because of an advert. Women can do

:57:43.:57:48.

anything, we have got there, we are very intelligent, we can be

:57:49.:57:51.

politicians, we can be anything that we choose

:57:52.:58:03.

to be, bricklayers, wrestlers. I will be very happy to leave it on

:58:04.:58:07.

that note, but can you confirm that your hands are still soft? I don't

:58:08.:58:10.

know about that! Nanette Newman, Fairly. -- Fairy soft.

:58:11.:58:15.

Many thanks to all our guests and you at home

:58:16.:58:17.

Emma will be carrying on the conversation online.

:58:18.:58:20.

I'll be talking to Peter Tatchell about a lifetime of campaigning.

:58:21.:58:24.

Log on to facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive

:58:25.:58:25.

In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole

:58:26.:58:30.

Sunday Morning Live team, goodbye.

:58:31.:58:35.

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