Episode 12 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 12

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On today's programme: Veteran soldiers who served

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in Northern Ireland may face questioning over killings which took

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A former head of the British Army says it's outrageous.

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Ed Skrein pulls out of a big Hollywood movie because he didn't

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think it was right to play a character of Asian heritage.

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Is it wrong for white actors to take such roles?

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Wendy Robbins joins children taking a special holiday away

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from their homes near the site of the world's worst

:00:35.:00:37.

Tell me what you know about Chernobyl. It is a city in the

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Ukraine. There was an explosion at the power station.

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And the man known as the vicar of Baghdad tells Martin Bashir

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what happened when he asked terrorist leaders round for a meal.

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I invited Isis round for dinner and they said yes, but we will chop your

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head off afterwards. So I didn't take it up.

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All that coming up and Emma Barnett is here ready to let

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And good morning to you. We want to hear from you on all of our

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discussions today. You can contact us by

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Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use

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the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed

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by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your

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standard message rate. Or email us at

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[email protected] However you choose to get in touch,

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please don't forget to include your name so I can get you involved

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in the programme, including whether you think big bosses

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deserve big salaries. First, it was revealed this week

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that elderly soldiers who served in Northern Ireland

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with the British Army may be called to give evidence on fresh inquests

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into deaths during the Troubles, a period of violence from the late

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1960s to the late 1990s. Families of some of those who died

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will welcome further investigation. But the former head

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of the British Army, General Lord Dannatt,

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says it's outrageous to expect soldiers,

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some now in their 70s and 80s, Is it wrong to pursue soldiers over

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actions in Northern Ireland? Joining me now to discuss

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that are Dawn Foster, a journalist and broadcaster,

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Mark Thompson from the campaign group Relatives For Justice,

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Alan Barry, a former soldier from Justice For Northern Ireland

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Veterans, and Ruth Dudley Edwards, Mark, many veterans feel that this

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is a witchhunt. Can you understand how they feel? Well, there is a

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motive at play. It is not a witchhunt. The figures are borne out

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that there are only three soldiers subject to potential charges being

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taken forward in respect of 400 people killed by so-called security

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forces. If you were sitting at home in the north of Ireland today and

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your child was killed, and we are dealing with a legacy of impunity

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and nobody held into account, then now is the time that we address that

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and there is a mechanism to address that. Those governments and all the

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political parties have agreed to it. Unfortunately their residual

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process. There is a campaign by soldiers and by the British

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government to provide a smothering blanket to the truth being told.

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Either you believe in justice and you apply it evenly, which has never

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happened. A smothering blanket covering something up and they don't

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want to talk about it? That is total rubbish. The soldiers were

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interviewed at the time of the incidents. This case here relates to

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a 74-year-old veteran who was involved in an incident in the

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1970s. He was questioned at the time of the incident, as were all the

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people on that patrol. He was questioned again about 20 years

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after the incident. And then yet again he was arrested about three

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years ago, questioned again, and on this occasion, he was held in

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detention for three days and questioned 26 times. Harold Shipman

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was only questioned ten times. We don't want to get into individual

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cases, but the idea that veterans are being hounded? These are people

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who have already given evidence. It is an affront. Many of the soldiers

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who have bald triggers and killed people were questioned not a suspect

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but as witnesses. Questions from 19721973, by their own colleagues.

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European Court of Human Rights have found UK Government in violation of

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its investigative duties in respect of the north of Ireland in which the

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investigations have been partial, perfunctory and have not delivered

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accountability, and that is a fact that it is on going out at this

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minute and the UK Government are gaining because they have

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continually fails. 25,000 Republicans spent over 100,000 years

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in jail. A handful of British soldiers were convicted of killing

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and then reinstated in their regiments, some promoted and given

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back pay. Vindictive message -- the indicative message is not good.

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Joining me now is the former head of the British Army General

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Good morning. You have said it is outrageous, to use that word, that

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people are being investigated again over this. Why is it outrageous? I

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think that over the years we have had enough of what is effectively a

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witchhunt. Just reflect on the large number of allegations made against

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British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. The vast majority of

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which turned out to be vexatious and false and now we are going back to

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Northern Ireland. I was in command 20 years ago and we were involved in

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a number of incidents in intense circumstances but everything was

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investigated properly according to the rules and legislation of the

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time. People are probably not aware. A soldier on patrol with his rifle

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had 20 rounds of ammunition. You had to account for every one of those

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rounds of ammunition. If I can just jump in? Are you saying that all of

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these cases categorically have been investigated as thoroughly as they

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should be? They were investigated thoroughly at the time. When anybody

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fired a single round, that round had to be accounted for. The Royal

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Military Police and the Royal Ulster Constabulary took statements and the

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thing was investigated properly at the time. Are you proud of the way

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the British Army acted in Northern Ireland? I am proud of the way the

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British Army has acted in all the campaigns that we have been involved

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in over an extraordinary period of time. So if everything was accounted

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for? Why are the authorities agreeing to the reopening of some of

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these cases? The Ministry of Defence is agreeing because it is fearful of

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European Court of Human Rights and fearful of Britain coming under

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pressure from European legislation. That is understandable. The point I

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am trying to make is that many of these incidents took place many

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years ago. They were investigated properly and thoroughly at the time

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and it is thoroughly unreasonable, and outrageous as an expression I

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have used before, to expect soldiers in their 70s and early 80s to have

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any kind of recall of what happened at the time. Some people should say

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there should be no time limit on justice? I think there is a

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practical aspect to this as well. I think a statue of limitations is a

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well-known concept. I think something like 30 years is probably

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a reasonable length of time. The point I am trying to make is that it

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was not lawless, everything up for grabs at the time. Matters were

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properly investigated. For example, I gave evidence in several trials

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and various coroner courts and things are investigated properly

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according to the procedures at the time. It is thoroughly unreasonable

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30, 40, 50 years later to start to apply different principles and

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procedures in very historic cases now. Lord Dannatt, thank you.

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Thoroughly unreasonable to go back to this period of time? Everything

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was investigated at the time, according to Lord Dannatt, and he

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says it is unreasonable and a witchhunt. Is that how you see it?

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Not remotely. It is a small number of people. I don't think it was

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properly investigated at the time. It was investigated by the British

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state themselves and people need to look at it objectively. If we argue

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that we should have a statute of limitations 30 years later, then we

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need to look at how the problems in the north are completely different

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to rain. We are getting onto 20 years since the peace process began.

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If soldiers believe they acted appropriately, they should not worry

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and they should actually want to give families the answer is that

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they want. They have given the answers. They haven't. A huge number

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of families do not know exactly what happened when their relatives and

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their children died. They want answers and they want to move on and

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they can't do that without proper investigation and soldiers being

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questioned at suspect and not just witnesses. There was an

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investigation at the time. Do we keep investigating until they die?

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Lord Dannatt was only talking about soldiers. The former British soldier

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using a pseudonym wrote about faith and duty and in that book he wrote

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about the rules of engagement, put them in the bin. We shoot first and

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we ask questions later. That man killed the father of two baby

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infants and his family want the truth now. The point being that

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ammunition was accounted for, but better than that the issue and the

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legacy has got to be addressed as part of the transitional process. We

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don't have time to go into individual cases. Let me bring in

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Ruth. Can we understand the relatives of the victims? There is

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no time limit on justice and they want answers for the questions. I

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have the deepest sympathy for the relatives of people killed during

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the Troubles and I have been involved in the civil case against

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the Omagh bombers, for instance. I have been involved with a lot of

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these people and I have sympathy with people on all sides about this

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but let's be clear. At the beginning of the peace process, Sinn Fein used

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to say we don't want a hierarchy of victims. In other words, the bomber

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who went out to kill, killed by his own bomb, is on a par with the

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victim that he killed at the same time. They have now reached the

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stage where there is a hierarchy of victims. For some reason or other

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the Republican victims matter and the same is not true of state

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forces. Hold on, Mark. That is the case! Let her finish. We will not

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say there are two lot of perpetrators. If you are soldier,

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there will be papers on you and colleagues at the time might give

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evidence against you and you are paramilitary there are no records

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anywhere and nobody will give evidence against you because they

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could be killed. It puts the troops in a completely impossible position.

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There are records of what the troops did and there are no records of what

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the Republicans did. That is blatantly not the truth and any

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observer would know that the RUC, it just proud of the peace agreement in

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1998, destroyed tens of thousands of records that it held of its own

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agents involved in loyalist paramilitaries and its own agents in

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the IRA. They destroyed them and it is a record in the courts. They

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destroyed them because they work stored in a building contaminated by

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asbestos but they did not provide a health and safety certificate for

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that. There are lots of allegations being made here and I think it is

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part of a propaganda campaign. At the end of the day, you have got to

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deal in facts. The fact this. Under the terms of the Good Friday

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Agreement, where this all started, the Blair government sold at the

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British Army, both here on the mainland our colleagues in Northern

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Ireland. It was a treacherous agreement were effectively nobody

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knew the full details of the agreement and behind closed doors,

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effectively we were left open for prosecution. If you release over 300

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prisoners who have been convicted of terrorist crimes and murders, and

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then issue over 150 on the run letters to people who had not even

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been apprehended, and then you have... Can I finish? Gerry Adams

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two days ago saying it would be counter-productive to jail the IRA

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killers of Tom Oliver, a farmer, who was shot in the back of the head for

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being accused of being an informer. Come on, guys, let's get real. That

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is what many people are saying. Are we chasing both sides equally?

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Republicans who have done a lot of bad things are walking free and they

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are pursuing British soldiers. Due process was applied during the

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conflict against Republicans. There is a legacy and a deficit of

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accountability and justice. I just want to come to your point. If we

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follow this logic, we are saying that those that have culpability for

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Grenfell Tower or Hillsborough should not be charged. Let me bring

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in the views of people at home in a moment but a final word from Lord

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Dannatt. If there are family members of victims who feel they are owed

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justice and they are watching this, do you want to say anything to them?

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I can fully understand if someone wants to know what happened to their

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loved one. But I am afraid that is one point. It stands in isolation to

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the other point. One of your contributors to the programme has

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already made that point. Just because the British Army is an

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organised organisation and regiments exist, it is possible to go to

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regimental associations and veteran soldiers and ask them for

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statements. It is impossible to do that of the provisional IRA. It is

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impossible to do that of loyalist terrorists. Just because you can get

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access to veterans does not provide an excuse or rationale for doing

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that. Frankly, things that happened 30, 40, 50 years ago, I am afraid

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were investigated at the time and that is the end of the matter. It is

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not reasonable to pursue aged soldiers now just because it is

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possible to get hold of them. But darn it, thank for your views. --

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Lord Dannatt, thank you for your views. You have been getting in

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touch. My father was a policeman and he said three tours and he was

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attacked at by a mob, blown out of his bed by a car bomb, and if you

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want to apportion blame, look the politicians in charge at the time

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and look at their policies then and now. Laura says that soldiers should

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not be investigated for doing their jobs. But if they have been

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torturing people, whatever they have done, they should be investigated

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and punished. Sarah says there is far too much praise of soldiery in

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this country. They argument with brains and if they commit dreadful

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acts, the weight of the law should be thrown. People cannot respect us

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if we act like animals. The actor Ed Skrein has had a lot

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of attention this week. Not for a part he's playing,

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but for one he isn't. Skrein pulled out of a Hellboy

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film because he was cast in the comic book

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adaption as a character Skrein said he was stepping down

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so that the role can be cast His decision comes

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amidst a row about so called "whitewashing" in Hollywood,

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using white actors to play First, let's join Mehreen Baig to

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see how the controversy is viewed by For over 60 years, the National

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youth theatre has been helping launch the careers of young

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hopefuls. If she be false, then heaven mocks

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itself. They are rehearsing Othello, Shakespeare's tragedy about the

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doomed mixed race marriage, with the title role for a black character. In

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this version, the action is set in a pub. Not the appetites. Mohammed is

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playing Othello in this production. Does Othello have to be played by a

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black man? I think if you look at the text that Shakespeare has

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written, the depictions and the description of the character as

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well, going from bad, I would say yes. And this is the greatest

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discord be, that ever our hearts shall meet. Recently, Ed Skrein took

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a stand against whitewashing in Hollywood. How do you feel about

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that? Incredible. Also, it should happen more often. The fact it was

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him, for Hellboy, such a massive film, that obviously got a lot of

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attraction, got a lot of people noticing it more. Should it not be

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based on merit, rather than looking at the colour of people? I think it

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is about the story, the story that the piece of theatre or film is

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telling. If you're casting something that needs to represent the

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multicultural society wearing, you should cast for that. Desdemona is

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honest. Have you seen any of the classic adaptations of Othello? I

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have. What is your opinion of them? I think they are terrible. They

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rained all kinds of sewers and shames on my bare head. Particularly

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actors that decided to black up and play Othello. I do not know why they

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thought that was a good decision. The heavens forbid, but that our

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lives and comfort should increase, even as our days do grow. Amen to

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that. If you've got an offer for a Hollywood lead role that the person

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was a different race, a different ethnicity to you, would you consider

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it? At the moment, in the current climate of things, no. I am not in a

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position to tell that story if the race is of particular importance.

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Something I would love to see more of, when main parts are played by

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black women or black men, is it not to be about slavery, or about is

:19:44.:19:51.

being made and butlers. I am very hopeful for my career in the future,

:19:52.:19:56.

that claims will be changing by the time, hopefully, that I get to that

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stage. And this, the greatest discord is be that ever our hearts

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shall break. Mehreen Baig with some views

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from young actors with the Here to discuss this

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further are Kunle Olulode, a film historian and

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critic, and Vera Chok, an actress Thank you for joining us today. Can

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I come to you first, Kunle. Was Ed Skrein rate to resign this part? I

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think for Ed Skrein it is right. It is a gesture. If we are talking

:20:32.:20:37.

about the underrepresentation of East Asian actors in both film and

:20:38.:20:43.

theatre, then really it is no more than a token effort. The issues are

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much broader than that. To be honest, I think what is exciting

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about the current period is the issue is being raised, but also, the

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opportunities for East Asian actors are on the agenda. Do you have a

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problem with white actors generally playing parts that are of different

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ethnic origin to them? Historically a Hollywood has marginalised East

:21:10.:21:13.

Asian and black actors to that effect. But the issue of addressing

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that by simply not taking parts, there is a danger that we take it

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into another problem area, I kind of cultural apartheid. So you can only

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do the roles you match? That would be short-sighted and clumsy. I do

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think that the question of the expansion of both, the involvement

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in production, in front of the camera and behind it, that is a

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really important issue. That is a wider issue being raised. What we

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have heard is that this will not necessarily change the game. We

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should not always have actors necessarily playing roles that match

:21:52.:21:56.

the ethnic origin they are from. What do you think of that, we will

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end up with the cultural apartheid? I think it comes down to the wider

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picture. It is about conscious casting, as opposed to colour-blind

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casting. If decisions to cast are very well thought through, if you

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want to have an all-white cast, if you want to have men playing women,

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whatever your decision as a maker, an artist, as a cultural instigator,

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have faith in the story you're telling and the people you're

:22:27.:22:30.

working with. So I can be clear, are you saying that if we have roles at

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the moment that you have to match whatever the character was written

:22:35.:22:40.

in, do you see what saying? White actors can only play definitive

:22:41.:22:44.

white rolls? I would say that the problem is we are not on a level

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playing field. Because there are not opportunities for people of colour

:22:52.:22:59.

in the media anyway, enough opportunities, we are historically

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erased. To erase you even further. Yes, it is kind of like billing. In

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the future, if everyone is equal in society and on screen, thin enough,

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play whoever you want. We do have examples in history, Laurence

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Olivier, let's say, he famously black dog to play Othello. It was

:23:18.:23:23.

well received. Would it be well received today? Interestingly, I

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thought about this before coming on the programme. I also thought about

:23:29.:23:31.

Paul Robson, who played the same part. Of the two performances, I

:23:32.:23:39.

think Paul Robson's is the more credible. We have to respect the

:23:40.:23:42.

fact that Laurence Olivier's performance was of its time. This is

:23:43.:23:49.

a creative process and a film involves the suspension of

:23:50.:23:52.

disbelief. The better that suspension is, the more effective

:23:53.:23:56.

the actor is working. The other way, could you have a white actor play

:23:57.:24:02.

Martin Luther King? Giving the historical, iconic nature of Martin

:24:03.:24:05.

Luther King, probably not, but you could have an actor creating a peace

:24:06.:24:10.

where there are no black characters in it, but it is based upon the life

:24:11.:24:16.

of Martin Luther King. That could happen. It is an interesting

:24:17.:24:18.

discussion. If you wanted to cast a white actor to play Martin Luther

:24:19.:24:43.

King, I would be like, why do you want to do that? Are you making a

:24:44.:24:46.

point? What about at Asian actor? It is the politics behind it. The

:24:47.:24:48.

reasons matter. The actress Chloe Bennett said she had to change her

:24:49.:24:50.

last name from Wang because Hollywood is racist. Has that been

:24:51.:24:52.

your experience, or the experience of friends? It works both ways. I

:24:53.:24:55.

have definitely been employed because of my skin colour. Have you

:24:56.:24:57.

been stereotyped because of how they think you should be playing a

:24:58.:24:59.

certain role? Speaking with a Chinese accent. You are Asian, you

:25:00.:25:06.

can do it, I general Asian accent. Always playing the prostitute, the

:25:07.:25:12.

woman who gets killed, or on the flip side, the very sort of Bijan

:25:13.:25:17.

doctor, lawyer, etc. Of course, these people exist in real life. We

:25:18.:25:22.

need writers to be writing more broadly. Absolutely. That was your

:25:23.:25:27.

point. Yes, I think that companies such as HBO and some of the digital

:25:28.:25:32.

content makers are less worried. We're going to talk afterwards on

:25:33.:25:36.

Facebook. We will keep this conversation going. I am sorry we

:25:37.:25:38.

have to leave it there. For ten years, Canon Andrew White

:25:39.:25:40.

presided over the only In a Muslim city riven by strife

:25:41.:25:43.

and violence, being a Christian Canon White often had to wear

:25:44.:25:46.

a bullet proof vest to go about his Despite coping with the effects

:25:47.:25:55.

of multiple sclerosis, he threw himself into his role

:25:56.:26:00.

in the perilous surroundings of the Iraqi capital and became known

:26:01.:26:03.

as the Vicar of Baghdad. In 2014, he was recalled by

:26:04.:26:05.

the Archbishop of Canterbury for his Martin Bashir, the BBC's religious

:26:06.:26:08.

affairs correspondent, What attracted you to the only

:26:09.:26:23.

church in a war-torn city in the most volatile region of the world? I

:26:24.:26:28.

wanted to be an Iraq because that is where my heart was. I had spent so

:26:29.:26:35.

much time there, even in the days of Saddam Hussein, working between

:26:36.:26:43.

Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims, the Yazidi and the Christians. The fact

:26:44.:26:48.

is, I am a bit of a conflict junkie. There is nothing I like more than

:26:49.:26:53.

being where things are really difficult. And to actually take God

:26:54.:27:01.

into the middle of conflict and disaster is a sign of hope. You

:27:02.:27:06.

faced yourself many personal challenges. You contracted multiple

:27:07.:27:13.

sclerosis 19 years ago. It must be a very challenging experience,

:27:14.:27:16.

especially working in a place like Iraq? Can are they honest with you?

:27:17.:27:24.

I have never once looked at myself and thought, oh, dear, how do I cope

:27:25.:27:30.

like this? I look at myself and I say, thank you, Lord. Despite having

:27:31.:27:36.

a shoddy body, I can still keep going. What was the cost to you and

:27:37.:27:49.

the church? How dangerous was it? After the 2003 conflict, that is

:27:50.:27:52.

when the trouble really started. They removed Saddam Hussein, and the

:27:53.:28:00.

allowed in violence, tension, terrorist conflict like never

:28:01.:28:05.

before. People would literally, we would find them sleeping on the

:28:06.:28:10.

streets and they had not eaten. They could not go to their homes, their

:28:11.:28:21.

homes had been blown up. So many people, murdered, over 1057 of them,

:28:22.:28:26.

my people that I knew about. I wonder if you could describe the

:28:27.:28:30.

day-to-day experience, the dangers of living in Iraq? Are people used

:28:31.:28:37.

to have to be searched from head to toe every time they came into

:28:38.:28:44.

church. It was a life surrounded by fear. We were threatened all the

:28:45.:28:50.

time. There are not many clergymen in the world to have done the Paris

:28:51.:28:54.

visiting surrounded by armed soldiers. There was another

:28:55.:29:00.

horrendous experience for you when you were taken hostage. I was

:29:01.:29:08.

kidnapped. It was the only time in my whole ministry when I was scared.

:29:09.:29:15.

Did you begin to think that the end of your life was approaching?

:29:16.:29:22.

Absolutely. I really did not think I would survive it. My money

:29:23.:29:26.

eventually got me out. You paid them? Do you believe that there is a

:29:27.:29:34.

deliberate attempt to wipe out to the church in Iraq? Not just Iraq,

:29:35.:29:42.

but the whole middle east. Most of the Muslims who I know intimately

:29:43.:29:48.

are peaceful, but there is less than 1% who are not, and they are causing

:29:49.:29:54.

havoc and turmoil, and we cannot deny that. Was there an occasion

:29:55.:30:01.

when you invited the terrorist to top? There was an occasion when I

:30:02.:30:09.

heard, really decided, how on earth am I going to engage with these

:30:10.:30:14.

people? My theory has always been, when we meet, we eat. I invited Isis

:30:15.:30:22.

around for dinner. They said, yes, but we will chop your head off

:30:23.:30:26.

afterwards. I did not take it any further. Was it a mistake to talk to

:30:27.:30:31.

so-called Islamic State? I would not say it was a mistake. I

:30:32.:30:43.

would say it is the fundamental of our work. Sitting in Golders Green

:30:44.:30:46.

and having smoked salmon bagels does not bring about peace. You were

:30:47.:30:52.

eventually ordered by the Archbishop of Canterbury to stop living

:30:53.:30:55.

permanently in Baghdad. How difficult was that for you? It was

:30:56.:31:05.

the most difficult day of my life. It was the most difficult, painful

:31:06.:31:09.

day ever. So what shape as your ministry taken now? My key focus is

:31:10.:31:20.

my people who were in Iraq with me who have fled and have run away and

:31:21.:31:27.

are in Jordan. We are providing a future for the children and an

:31:28.:31:36.

education and a way forward. A very large part of my work is going

:31:37.:31:42.

around the world teaching people about how enemies need to become

:31:43.:31:49.

friends and how we need to work together as Jewish people,

:31:50.:31:55.

Christians and Muslims. It is no good just looking at them and saying

:31:56.:31:59.

they are the other. The other is my family. The other are my friends. It

:32:00.:32:07.

sounds as though you are now an ambassador for peace. Would that be

:32:08.:32:11.

a fair description? It is very biblical. Jesus has called us to be

:32:12.:32:19.

ambassadors of reconciliation, and that is what I do.

:32:20.:32:25.

Canon Andrew White, still as feisty as ever.

:32:26.:32:27.

To be precise, the amount of money paid to top bosses

:32:28.:32:31.

Britain's biggest firms were told by the government this week

:32:32.:32:35.

that they will have to reveal the pay ratio between senior

:32:36.:32:38.

A recent report on the top 100 companies on the stock market

:32:39.:32:42.

revealed that for every ?1 an average worker earns, the chief

:32:43.:32:44.

So is such a huge gap unfair or do big bosses deserve big money?

:32:45.:32:52.

Joining me now are Jamie Whyte from the Institute

:32:53.:32:55.

of Economic Affairs, Afua Hirsch, a writer

:32:56.:32:58.

and broadcaster, Sam Bowman from the Adam Smith Institute,

:32:59.:33:02.

and still with us Dawn Foster, a journalist and broadcaster.

:33:03.:33:07.

Sam, how pleased should we be that the government is trying to crack

:33:08.:33:15.

down on executive pay? Huge amounts of money that top bosses are

:33:16.:33:19.

getting. We should think about it by wondering if they are paid more than

:33:20.:33:23.

they are worth to the firms. We can look at this by seeing what happens

:33:24.:33:28.

to the value of a firm one a top CEO leaves. When the visionary CEO of

:33:29.:33:33.

burglary left that company a few years ago, they lost half a billion

:33:34.:33:39.

pounds in value. -- Burberry. When Tesco CEO announced he was spending

:33:40.:33:44.

more time at the company, they gained ?2 billion in value. When a

:33:45.:33:50.

CEO departs suddenly, the movement on the market has grown and grown.

:33:51.:33:56.

Why is that? It looks like markets that are dominated by tech and

:33:57.:34:01.

highly competitive ones because of globalisation, the strategic

:34:02.:34:03.

decisions made by the chief executive matter a lot to that

:34:04.:34:07.

firm's value. If that is the case, it makes perfect sense for a firm to

:34:08.:34:14.

pay top dollar to get the best people. They are responsible for so

:34:15.:34:17.

much in the company say we should pay top dollar. I think the value of

:34:18.:34:24.

a CEO is overstated often. They live in a distorted bubble at the top. We

:34:25.:34:28.

are constantly told that to incentivise people into work, we

:34:29.:34:33.

should cut benefits etc. Full the very poorest we are told that less

:34:34.:34:36.

money will incentivise them but for the rich, after the financial crash,

:34:37.:34:40.

we were talking about banker bonuses etc. I think that is an issue. If

:34:41.:34:45.

you look at the pay ratios, if you look at a company where the lowest

:34:46.:34:51.

paid workers, the average paid worker, and the relatively standard

:34:52.:34:55.

ratio of ten or 15 times as much as the CEO, compared to somebody where

:34:56.:35:02.

for every ?1 that the cleaner earns, the CEO earns ?350, you are looking

:35:03.:35:07.

at a company that does not value equality. And in those companies,

:35:08.:35:12.

the morale will not be good. Isn't it ridiculous to compare the cleaner

:35:13.:35:16.

to the CEO? Of course the CEO will be paid more. Yes, but that much

:35:17.:35:21.

more? It is about valuing human life more. We are talking about 48

:35:22.:35:25.

million to the highest paid director. Does anyone need that kind

:35:26.:35:29.

of money? It is not a matter of whether they need it. The amount

:35:30.:35:33.

they get paid is not dependent on how much they need. It is dependent

:35:34.:35:39.

on... It is a price. The price of labour which always depend on two

:35:40.:35:44.

things, supply and demand. Many people think that the owners of

:35:45.:35:47.

these companies are making a mistake by paying such a large sum of money

:35:48.:35:51.

but it is their mistake and they bear the cost of it. It is really

:35:52.:35:57.

not proper, it is immoral, for third parties to try to interfere in what

:35:58.:36:01.

is an entirely voluntary transaction between on the one hand the owners

:36:02.:36:07.

and the other hand the management. I would disagree that only the owners

:36:08.:36:10.

of the company pay the cost. I think we all pay a cost in society when

:36:11.:36:15.

the market for executive pay is so broken. This is not a radical thing

:36:16.:36:20.

to say. If you listen to Theresa May a year ago before the watered-down

:36:21.:36:24.

proposals claiming now, she described the corporate system of

:36:25.:36:26.

awarding people at the top as broken and that is why she proposed quite

:36:27.:36:30.

radical measures like having workers represented on boards. It can't be

:36:31.:36:36.

that mad because she has watered them down. She has listened to the

:36:37.:36:41.

business lobby. Our companies are not fulfilling the role they should

:36:42.:36:44.

in a capitalist system. We still have chronic problems with

:36:45.:36:47.

productivity compared to the rest of the OECD. Our businesses are not

:36:48.:36:54.

able to train and provide jobs for school leavers and graduates, which

:36:55.:36:58.

is why immigration has become such a political flash point. We need to

:36:59.:37:02.

look at the role that companies play in society and ask why the link

:37:03.:37:06.

between performance, which are still got so many problems, and pay, it

:37:07.:37:13.

seems to be so broken. Anna has got and now we have got another guest.

:37:14.:37:17.

Joining me now is Kate Bell, head of the Economic

:37:18.:37:20.

and Social Affairs Department at the Trades Union Congress.

:37:21.:37:22.

I just like to read this comment coming in. People should be able to

:37:23.:37:27.

learn what they are able to get at what they deserve. It is not by

:37:28.:37:31.

business what my boss ends. It doesn't affect her at all what the

:37:32.:37:35.

top boss does or doesn't get? I think it probably does affect the

:37:36.:37:40.

success of her company because we have got widespread evidence that in

:37:41.:37:43.

companies with wider pay disparities, bigger gaps between the

:37:44.:37:46.

top and the average worker, that company is less successful over the

:37:47.:37:51.

long-term. A lot of employees say it does affect their motivation. The

:37:52.:37:54.

survey a couple of years ago said that six out of ten employees found

:37:55.:37:59.

the overly high pay off their CEO affected them admission at work.

:38:00.:38:02.

Isn't that a convenient excuse for why they might not be enjoying their

:38:03.:38:06.

job? Seriously when they sit at their desk, their tail, wherever

:38:07.:38:10.

they are, they are thinking the man a woman at the top of this company

:38:11.:38:15.

owns so much more than me that I can't be bothered today? If you are

:38:16.:38:19.

asking that person to stay a bit later, to do a bit extra, and they

:38:20.:38:22.

are thinking my boss ends in 2.5 days what I heard all year, that

:38:23.:38:27.

might affect your ability to go the extra mile. -- what I earn all year.

:38:28.:38:34.

Could you argue that it is inspirational and aspirational? That

:38:35.:38:37.

person at the top of the company until this money and I will work

:38:38.:38:40.

extra hard to climb the tree? I think it makes the top of the tree

:38:41.:38:46.

look further away. If that person is earning 129 times your average pay,

:38:47.:38:50.

it is very unlikely that you think next year maybe they will earn 128

:38:51.:38:56.

times and the year after 127 times. As Afua Hirsch was saying, the

:38:57.:39:01.

system does not work for British business or workers. British workers

:39:02.:39:05.

have seen their pay falling in the last four months, and something is

:39:06.:39:07.

clearly going wrong there, and we have had a productivity freeze for

:39:08.:39:11.

the last ten years in the UK. It is difficult to say that this model is

:39:12.:39:16.

working for the British economy or British businesses either. Thank

:39:17.:39:22.

you. A system that is not working for business or workers. Why can't

:39:23.:39:24.

we just put a limit on how much these people are earning? There is

:39:25.:39:29.

something slightly weird about a bunch of journalists and economists

:39:30.:39:33.

sitting about talking about how to boost company profits. I don't know

:39:34.:39:39.

how, that is the company's job. But productivity is lower. We don't

:39:40.:39:42.

build houses where they need to be so people cannot move to whether

:39:43.:39:45.

good jobs are and we tax investment more than we need to and we have

:39:46.:39:49.

chronic long-term underinvestment in research and element in this

:39:50.:39:52.

country. It is not because of high CEO pay, because if that was the

:39:53.:39:56.

case, other countries like the US would have the same problem. But in

:39:57.:39:59.

Germany, they do have regulations, and it is not a problem. A more

:40:00.:40:05.

important point that I want to make. One of the reasons why Germany

:40:06.:40:09.

manages to be quite productive if they have decentralised wage

:40:10.:40:13.

bargaining. This isn't me. The widespread consensus is that

:40:14.:40:17.

flexible labour markets plus major strength during the recession has

:40:18.:40:22.

allowed Germany to prosper now. The important point to make is that it

:40:23.:40:25.

is strange to focus on pay ratios because it means that the CEO of

:40:26.:40:28.

Goldman Sachs looks better than the CEO of Sainsbury's because Goldman

:40:29.:40:34.

Sachs and their average employees are paid much more than average a

:40:35.:40:38.

breeze at Tesco. There is something very weird going on. If only these

:40:39.:40:45.

laws work imposed, the suggestion is, and the pay of CEOs was lower,

:40:46.:40:49.

then that these would be more profitable. If that was true, give

:40:50.:40:53.

that advice to the boards of the companies, they would lower the pay,

:40:54.:40:57.

and the idea that this money is left on the table, and the government

:40:58.:40:59.

would force companies to be more profitable, is implausible. If it

:41:00.:41:04.

was not profitable, some firms would lower the pay of their top bosses

:41:05.:41:08.

and they would put the other firms that are paying these bosses a lot

:41:09.:41:12.

of money out of business, but they don't. That is capitalism, isn't it?

:41:13.:41:17.

It is. And the problem is that at the moment capitalism isn't working.

:41:18.:41:21.

If it made sense to do it, they would do it and they are not. I

:41:22.:41:25.

don't think they necessarily would. Even at the top like their wages. --

:41:26.:41:34.

people at the top like their wages. We are talking about business as

:41:35.:41:38.

though it acts in a vacuum and not in society. The CEO of Tesco is paid

:41:39.:41:41.

much more than the people at the very bottom, so those people have

:41:42.:41:44.

got to go to the government for housing benefit and tax credits, and

:41:45.:41:48.

so we are subsidising the low pay of people working in companies very

:41:49.:41:52.

thick it is have got a lot of money. Money is not finite, it is going to

:41:53.:41:56.

the CEOs, and we are picking up the bill in society. I don't think

:41:57.:42:01.

anyone is sitting here saying that economists and journalists should be

:42:02.:42:04.

setting corporate pay. What we are saying is that the process is not

:42:05.:42:08.

working properly and it needs to be regulated and that is why there is a

:42:09.:42:11.

suggestion for having employees represented on boards and this isn't

:42:12.:42:15.

radical. Other countries do it. It's a process that more integrity, then

:42:16.:42:19.

what ever companies set as executive pay would be more efficient. It is

:42:20.:42:23.

allowing market forces within companies to work properly. Thank

:42:24.:42:26.

you very much to everyone on the panel.

:42:27.:42:29.

All children love the summer holidays.

:42:30.:42:31.

But for one group of youngsters from Eastern Europe,

:42:32.:42:33.

their trip to the UK has been particularly welcome.

:42:34.:42:35.

That's because they come from an area near the site

:42:36.:42:37.

of a disaster that made headlines around the world.

:42:38.:42:40.

You wouldn't have thought playing in the fresh air in the park was a big

:42:41.:42:53.

deal for most kids. But for 11-year-old Elena it is a really

:42:54.:42:57.

special treat. She is one of a group of 12 children who have come to

:42:58.:43:01.

spend a month in the UK from their home in Belarus, the Eastern

:43:02.:43:04.

European state near Chernobyl where the world's worst nuclear accident

:43:05.:43:09.

happened in 1986. Two explosions here on April 26 led to the world's

:43:10.:43:16.

worst nuclear disaster. 31 people have already died. Fast tracks of

:43:17.:43:20.

Ukrainian farmland like contaminated and the effect on Chernobyl's

:43:21.:43:23.

community will be felt for generations. The power plant was

:43:24.:43:29.

then in the USSR and the accident led to widespread nuclear

:43:30.:43:32.

contamination, significant traces of which will remain. Elena is staying

:43:33.:43:39.

with Claire and Dave, a retired couple who live near Edinburgh. Even

:43:40.:43:43.

though the Chernobyl disaster happened more than 20 years before

:43:44.:43:47.

she was born, Elena knows what happened. Tell me what you know

:43:48.:43:58.

about Chernobyl. It is a city in the Ukraine and in the city was an

:43:59.:44:06.

explosion that the power station. Elena and the other youngsters are

:44:07.:44:10.

spending their month in the UK thanks to the charity Friends Of

:44:11.:44:25.

Chernobyl's Children Will. Dave and Claire's linguistic skills are about

:44:26.:44:29.

as good as mine! How is your Russian? We don't speak any Russian.

:44:30.:44:35.

Just one word, thank you! Just about the same. How do you manage to

:44:36.:44:42.

communicate with Elena? Well, sign language, pointing at things, miming

:44:43.:44:48.

things, and if we are really struggling the Google translate

:44:49.:44:52.

function helps. Give me an example of the things you are miming. Time

:44:53.:44:58.

to brush your teeth. And for food, good, not good and in between. Do

:44:59.:45:09.

you like Elena? Good! -- do you like chocolate, Elena? Good! At the UK

:45:10.:45:13.

they're getting fresh air and plenty of fun. From the beginning of the

:45:14.:45:18.

visit to the end, facially, in their colour, their skin, their eyes

:45:19.:45:25.

brighter, and the months of healthy food, clean air and environment

:45:26.:45:29.

makes a difference to them in this growing stage of development between

:45:30.:45:30.

seven and 12. They love to come to parks. There

:45:31.:45:41.

are not many at home in Belarus. They love to run and jump and claim.

:45:42.:45:47.

It is wonderful to see them having a good time. Tell me two things that

:45:48.:45:54.

you love about living here? TRANSLATION: They love me and I love

:45:55.:45:59.

them. How do you say love in Russian? SHE SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN. The

:46:00.:46:15.

project is coordinated by Kenny Turnbull, who makes regular visits

:46:16.:46:19.

to Belarus and who has met the child's family. In the villages,

:46:20.:46:23.

they live with outside toilets and a cap in the street for water. There

:46:24.:46:28.

is no water in the house? None whatsoever. You may have to walk

:46:29.:46:33.

about 50 metres to the tap to get water. Even in the snow? In the

:46:34.:46:40.

snow. He has been to her house many times. She lives in a government

:46:41.:46:45.

hostel. This is her coming out to meet us on one of our visits, giving

:46:46.:46:51.

us a hug on the steps. This is her mum. They look like each other. You

:46:52.:46:56.

can see the resemblance. Mum keeps the room very well. She is a very

:46:57.:47:01.

responsible lady. The effect of the explosion and irradiation is a major

:47:02.:47:05.

concern for the families near Chernobyl. Before Chernobyl, 85% of

:47:06.:47:12.

the children in Belarus were classed as healthy. After Chernobyl, 85% of

:47:13.:47:17.

children in the contaminated areas are classed as unhealthy. The

:47:18.:47:21.

children we bring are not ill in themselves, but they do have lowered

:47:22.:47:26.

immune systems, so they are more susceptible to infection. The

:47:27.:47:29.

lowered immune system is brought about by constant exposure to levels

:47:30.:47:35.

of radiation that are above what they should be. It is too easy to

:47:36.:47:38.

forget that these things have happened and they have long-lasting

:47:39.:47:44.

implications and the Mandera home environments. We in the West can

:47:45.:47:47.

forget about it because we are not living with it day to day, but they

:47:48.:47:53.

are living with it every day. But, for a short time at least, these

:47:54.:47:57.

children are having a break from the home environment. She is making the

:47:58.:48:05.

most of it. Is it time for bed now? Universal.

:48:06.:48:08.

Those children seemed to be having a rare old

:48:09.:48:11.

Statues, buildings and streets honouring famous figures

:48:12.:48:15.

are peppered throughout cities and towns in the UK.

:48:16.:48:18.

But do we want to commemorate them all?

:48:19.:48:20.

In the southern states of America, many statues of prominent pro-

:48:21.:48:24.

slavery American Civil War leaders are being removed for being

:48:25.:48:26.

Right wing groups, such as the Ku Klux Klan,

:48:27.:48:39.

have staged protests leading to violence,

:48:40.:48:40.

including the death of a young woman in

:48:41.:48:42.

Here, questions are being asked about memorials to people

:48:43.:48:47.

Britain's colonial past, including a statue of the businessman

:48:48.:49:03.

Cecil Rhodes at Oxford University, and another in Bristol to

:49:04.:49:05.

Edward Colston, who played a prominent role in the slave trade.

:49:06.:49:08.

Even Nelson's Column in London has been labeled as a symbol of

:49:09.:49:11.

white supremacy because of the naval hero's support for the

:49:12.:49:14.

So should these and monuments and others like them be torn

:49:15.:49:21.

down or should they be preserved as a significant part of our

:49:22.:49:24.

Joining me now are James Heartfield, an author and historian,

:49:25.:49:28.

Cleo Lake, a writer and activist, Neil Wallis, former deputy

:49:29.:49:31.

editor of the News Of The World, and still with us, Afua

:49:32.:49:33.

Let's start with you. You have written an article. You started this

:49:34.:49:44.

debate. You wrote the article talking about removing the statue of

:49:45.:49:49.

Lord Nelson. You came in for quite a lot of criticism. Do you understand

:49:50.:49:53.

that criticism? I do, but it reinforces the point I was trying to

:49:54.:49:57.

make, which is that we in Britain have not been honest about our past.

:49:58.:50:02.

We have avoided the more difficult episodes in Britain's past, like the

:50:03.:50:07.

slave trade and the Empire. Many people walk around looking at

:50:08.:50:25.

statues like Nelson, who is elevated, and a position where we

:50:26.:50:29.

train our necks and admiration, without knowing that these people

:50:30.:50:31.

played a role in some of the darkest parts of our history. Those

:50:32.:50:33.

historical moments are with us today. Millions around the world are

:50:34.:50:36.

living out the repercussions of the slave trade. So you would pull

:50:37.:50:39.

Nelson Cole and on? I would not go with the bulldozer after the show

:50:40.:50:41.

and pull it down. -- so you would pull down Nelson's column? Many

:50:42.:50:44.

people like me are British and also black and have strong links to

:50:45.:50:48.

African and Caribbean societies that are still suffering as a result of

:50:49.:50:55.

people like him. We should be able to debate what the legacy has been.

:50:56.:50:58.

It seems like a fair point, if these people were involved in slavery, why

:50:59.:51:04.

are we supporting them? First of all, I think that Afua is saying

:51:05.:51:10.

exactly the right thing. It is legitimate to discuss aspects of our

:51:11.:51:13.

history that we have not discussed before. She is ludicrous when she

:51:14.:51:18.

proposes that we rewrite our history. What she needs to try to

:51:19.:51:25.

remember are several things. First of all, Nelson's column is nothing

:51:26.:51:30.

to do with slavery. It was not put because of any views he had on

:51:31.:51:37.

slavery. Views, incidentally, that I only discovered when I read Afua's

:51:38.:51:41.

the liberty -- deliberately provocative piece. I had no idea

:51:42.:51:45.

that he had a view either way about slavery. At the time, I guess that

:51:46.:51:51.

most people accepted that slavery was a legitimate part of how the

:51:52.:51:56.

world operated, not just here, but throughout Africa and the Middle

:51:57.:52:00.

East. It is a very common thing. The other thing I think is really

:52:01.:52:06.

important, and where this debate has gone so wrong, is the suggestion

:52:07.:52:12.

that if you hold my view, or disagree in any way with Afua, she

:52:13.:52:18.

mentioned this in the green room, I overheard her, that somehow it is

:52:19.:52:25.

racist to disagree. There was a very prominent journalist who wrote the

:52:26.:52:27.

piece in which he disagreed with her. Her reaction to that was, well,

:52:28.:52:35.

that was infused with his racist view. That is simply outrageous. I

:52:36.:52:40.

simply disagree with you, I am not racist. I do not agree. What I want

:52:41.:52:47.

is to prompt the debate, not to shut people down. I think what Neil is

:52:48.:52:52.

referring to is that some of the reaction I got, it had very strong

:52:53.:52:57.

undertones. People said, know your place, go back to where you came

:52:58.:53:02.

from and stop lecturing us. The assumption that I am an immigrant

:53:03.:53:05.

who has an illegitimate view because of how eyelet. I find that racist.

:53:06.:53:12.

One of the points that Neil is that we are judging historical characters

:53:13.:53:17.

by current standards and morals. Most people would not have a blemish

:53:18.:53:21.

free record at that time? They would not. It is not about rewriting

:53:22.:53:28.

history but telling the full story. Educating people, and examining

:53:29.:53:31.

values of today and examining what kind of future we want for our

:53:32.:53:34.

children and grandchildren, future citizens. Really, we have been fed

:53:35.:53:40.

this one-dimensional view of history, which is not accurate. I

:53:41.:53:46.

would not advocate taking down the statues but they need context, they

:53:47.:53:49.

need to be balanced. They need to be countered. I was happy to see the

:53:50.:53:58.

fourth plinth initiative. We had Nelson's ship. That was a good way

:53:59.:54:02.

of balancing it and opening up a wider debate. We need to have more

:54:03.:54:07.

memorials, more commemorations to the victims of enslavement, and to

:54:08.:54:12.

acknowledge the massive contribution they have given the world.

:54:13.:54:18.

It is about education. You are part of a movement in Bristol which led

:54:19.:54:22.

to the concert hall in Bristol agreeing to change its name. Why is

:54:23.:54:29.

that important. It is a name. Statues are symbols. Education in

:54:30.:54:33.

classrooms is the important thing, surely? Education for people of all

:54:34.:54:39.

ages is key. Dialogue is important. It is not about shutting people down

:54:40.:54:44.

but getting to know each other's stories and having empathy. What

:54:45.:54:47.

we're seeing among some of these discussions is like of empathy. It

:54:48.:54:52.

was significant that the Holland Bristol chose did is associate

:54:53.:54:58.

itself with Edward Colston. He did lots of great things for people.

:54:59.:55:01.

That is the narrative we have been given which leads to the annual

:55:02.:55:06.

celebration of this person, which completely ignores and insults the

:55:07.:55:09.

memory and history of my ancestors and many more people. People of all

:55:10.:55:15.

backgrounds are offended by this commemoration of this person. Only

:55:16.:55:24.

last week in Bristol, we had a memorial, and artistic intervention,

:55:25.:55:28.

which commemorated a person enslaved, brought from Nigeria,

:55:29.:55:33.

buried in Bristol, born 250 years ago. That was well attended by

:55:34.:55:39.

people across society. History has not been told correctly in the first

:55:40.:55:45.

place? We talk about Cecil Rhodes, for example? There is a strong lead

:55:46.:55:49.

in the country and the had been for about 30 years for a more critical

:55:50.:55:53.

attitude to Empire and slavery. If you go to museums like the Greenwich

:55:54.:55:59.

Maritime Museum, or you go to the Docklands Museum, you see some very

:56:00.:56:05.

good displays about slavery, and telling the slavery story. I have

:56:06.:56:13.

two daughters who have been doing the GCSEs and starting their

:56:14.:56:19.

A-levels. Happy birthday, Daisy. They have had a lot of lessons. What

:56:20.:56:26.

about statues, education maybe, but should we be taking down statues? I

:56:27.:56:32.

do not like them all that much. Would you change them? There are

:56:33.:56:40.

many around Britain. I like quite Afua is said and I like what Cleo is

:56:41.:56:45.

saying. More discussion is right. Instead of pinning it down, taking

:56:46.:56:50.

it down is an extreme response. Sometimes an extreme responses

:56:51.:56:55.

right. The best way to better memorials would be to have more

:56:56.:57:03.

heroes. Claudia Jones started the Notting Hill Carnival as a memorial

:57:04.:57:09.

to Kelso Cochrane. That is a living memorial that is more effective than

:57:10.:57:14.

any statue. Afua, it is about education? It is about context. If

:57:15.:57:20.

we all learned in history about the hugely significant figures in

:57:21.:57:25.

Britain, who basically invented and pioneered the slave trade and

:57:26.:57:28.

colonialism for four centuries, I would be more comfortable that when

:57:29.:57:31.

we look at someone like Nelson, we have context. This is not a

:57:32.:57:37.

race-based crusade. Many Irish Catholics feel that Oliver Cromwell

:57:38.:57:42.

was the first genocidal figure in British history and they are deeply

:57:43.:57:45.

uncomfortable with the statue outside the British Parliament that

:57:46.:57:49.

commemorates him. This goes a lot deeper than people like me playing a

:57:50.:57:52.

race card. Let's find out what people at home

:57:53.:57:56.

nursing. This feels like historical cleansing to me. We may not like

:57:57.:58:02.

what these figures have done in the past, but the best way is to learn

:58:03.:58:07.

and not repeat the mistakes. Perhaps we need to shut down the Viking

:58:08.:58:11.

Museum in York, as the Vikings were some of the biggest slave owners

:58:12.:58:14.

ever. Thank you and thank you to all our

:58:15.:58:15.

panellists. Many thanks to all our

:58:16.:58:17.

guests and you at home But Emma will be carrying

:58:18.:58:21.

on the conversation online. I'm no' a beat, broken man,

:58:22.:58:24.

but I'm damaged, Hear four traumatic stories

:58:25.:58:50.

of the struggle to they thought they would find

:58:51.:58:54.

freedom on their release. I'm no' a beat, broken man,

:58:55.:58:55.

but I'm damaged,

:58:56.:58:59.

Should Nelson be removed from his column in Trafalgar Square because he was pro-slavery? Sean Fletcher and Emma Barnett lead debate on memorials to historical figures.

We also ask whether British soldiers who served in Northern Ireland should be questioned about killings that happened more than 40 years ago.


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