Episode 11 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 11

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Another food scare - after eggs, it's suspect sausages.

:00:10.:00:15.

Should we care more about where our food comes from?

:00:16.:00:17.

A health authority turns down a ?2500 donation

:00:18.:00:19.

because it was raised by men dressing up as female nurses.

:00:20.:00:22.

Are we becoming too politically correct?

:00:23.:00:25.

The Archbishop of Canterbury's daughter, Katharine Welby-Roberts,

:00:26.:00:28.

talks about her battle with depression and why she didn't

:00:29.:00:31.

seek her parents' help with her mental health problems.

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I think I felt I needed to protect them from it as well, and not

:00:40.:00:47.

burdened them, and that is a very common theme with mental health

:00:48.:00:52.

problems, that you are a burden to those you love.

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And actress and singer Martine McCutcheon tells us how

:00:56.:00:57.

she nearly gave up showbusiness until she received an unexpected

:00:58.:00:59.

I got a call from my agent saying, Martine, I know you told us not to

:01:00.:01:11.

call you ever again, but we got a phone call from Richard Curtis who

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wants you to read for a film with Hugh Grant. And I literally dropped

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the phone. All that coming up -

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and here with us today to sample your views

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is Samanthi Flanagan. We'll also be looking at how we care

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for our elderly. There's a warning that the care home

:01:29.:01:33.

system is facing a catastrophe. So should families play a bigger

:01:34.:01:36.

part in looking after relatives? We want you to get in touch

:01:37.:01:39.

on all our discussions. You can contact us by

:01:40.:01:41.

Facebook and Twitter - don't forget to use

:01:42.:01:43.

the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed

:01:44.:01:45.

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:01:46.:01:47.

standard message rate. Or email us at

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[email protected] However you choose to get in touch,

:01:52.:01:55.

please don't forget to include your name so I can get you involved

:01:56.:01:58.

in the programme. First, just a fortnight after egg

:01:59.:02:01.

products from four supermarkets were found to contain

:02:02.:02:04.

an insecticide, now it's reported that pork products may have infected

:02:05.:02:07.

people with hepatitis E. That's a virus that can

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cause liver damage. The pork was not from

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the UK, but imported. Nevertheless, these

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latest scares have raised Should we care more

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about where our food comes from? Joining me now to discuss

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that are Matt Rymer, a cattle farmer and founder

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of an organization set up to improve Dr Megan Blake, a senior lecturer

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in Human Geological Studies. Emma Slawinski from

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Compassion In World Farming. And Sally Bee, a healthy

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eating campaigner. Mats, you are a farmer. How

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concerned should we be about where our food comes from? I think the

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consumer should ask more questions. The consumer can expect food to

:03:09.:03:13.

become cheaper, but in a way, with food, less is more, and the consumer

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needs to ask the questions to drive the change. White, though? Isn't

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cheap food good? If you look at the food industry, provenance should

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really begin on the farm at seed or birth, and follow through the chain

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so that the consumer is empowered to know where those ingredients are

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from. It's important because it's a global food industry. Millenials

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particularly, the generation now, they want and care about how food is

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reared and grown and the environmental impact, but they need

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to ask those questions. Megan, you get what you pay for. If consumers

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want to pay for cheap food, they get cheap food. Should we be thinking

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more carefully about what we buy and what we eat? There were 3000 last

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year in this country who died from food paralysis. There are over 1

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million people in this country now who are going hungry, going to food

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banks. So while I am very sympathetic to the idea of

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provenance, I think it is a really middle-class problem. The bigger

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issue is around things to do with diet and the fact that we have

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people who are hungry. So if I am poor, it doesn't really matter if I

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get hepatitis E through sausages because I'm getting food? Putting it

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into perspective, the chances of getting hepatitis E from sausages

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are very small, compared to, say, getting a diet related illness. That

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is a different issue. Shouldn't we be thinking about the contribution

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of cheap meat to those illnesses? If you are raising an animal in a very

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intensive system and you are using an antibiotic to keep that animal

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healthy, preventative antibiotics, those are the same antibiotics we

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used to treat human health. On that point, I would disagree with you

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that Providence should be a preoccupation exclusive to the

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middle-class. Should be entitled to know where their food comes from. I

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agree, but for the people I work with, that is so low on their list

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of issues. They are concerned about whether or not they are going to be

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able to feed their kids, whether they can do that in the time they

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have, in the context of where they live. But to be able to know the

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journey of your food, how it's been produced, is very relevant to your

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health, especially with these health scares. Well, it's 3000 people. We

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have traceability. It is about worrying about the guy who is

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driving along text Inc. Its things you can't control. There have been

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to food scares within a fortnight. It's important to put things into

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perspective. We now have rolling 24 hour news, which needs to be filled

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with something. 20 years ago, we went to watch the News at Ten, and

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if there was a story on the headlines we would take notice of

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it. Now there are constant news stories, on our phones, for example.

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It is a complete balanced story. I'm from the position of health. I'm

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about healthy eating, having as much transparency as possible, but also

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making sure you can feed your kids. My advice to anybody is follow your

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instincts and do the best you can. If you can afford to buy food that

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you know exactly where it's come from, that is locally sourced, that

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you know is doing your body and your children good, fantastic. If you

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can't, you just have to do the best you can. I don't believe you have to

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spend a lot of money to know where your food is coming from. Let's go

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to Samanthi. Who have you got? With me now is Tracy Worcester,

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a campaigner for better animal welfare in farming,

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who's currently making a series of films with chefs who only use

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meat from farms with high Thank you for joining us. We have

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been hearing that it's unrealistic for poorer families to afford higher

:07:57.:08:01.

welfare meat. How realistic and option is it? I spend a lot of time

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asking people, would you look for higher welfare labels on your pork.

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They say, yes, they would, but it's more expensive, and what difference

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does it make if they do it on their own. I have been making a series of

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films, starting with Pig Business, which has been shown around the

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world. Then when I came to England, I was trying to stop local -- help

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local people stop a pig farm, and they are very, very angry that this

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pig farm is being proposed near them where it is well-known that the

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people who live near these farms are getting antibiotic resistant

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diseases, diseases which are spread further than the locality. You are

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spreading the faeces of these factory farms on the films. We

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cannot speak about this case because we don't know much about it. But

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there's been so much controversy about different meat scares and some

:09:12.:09:16.

people give up meat altogether. Is that a viable option? It is if you

:09:17.:09:24.

are terrified about what you eat. You have a terribly powerful purse

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which can say that you will pay the farmer a fair price and then you

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look for the high welfare labels, like outdoor bred, free range and

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organic. Many of us are eating too much meat. To reduce our meat intake

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would avoid diseases like obesity, diabetes, heart disease and some

:09:49.:09:54.

forms of cancer. That way you can spread your money and enjoy more

:09:55.:09:58.

vegetables. But the production of vegetables also causes... We use

:09:59.:10:04.

insecticides and chemical fertilisers, which people are

:10:05.:10:08.

worried about as well. So a vegetable diet is not the answer

:10:09.:10:14.

necessarily. You don't necessarily have to just eat vegetables. It's

:10:15.:10:19.

just to reduce your meat intake to help spread the cost. If you look

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for the better welfare labels, it is fractionally more expensive, but on

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average, it's too sausages from a factory farm where the pigs are

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being treated diabolically, treated with antibiotics just to keep them

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alive, or it is one and a half sausages from a high welfare farm.

:10:41.:10:45.

Thank you. A lot of interesting comments. Do we need to our

:10:46.:10:53.

mentality? We need to eat less meat and eat better meet? I tried to eat

:10:54.:10:58.

the food that you are talking about, but I can afford that. But we make

:10:59.:11:06.

it cheaper. That's the point. We are sitting at home. Who is it that's

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going out and doing this? In the community in Doncaster it's the

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women who are trying to take home all these messages. There's a woman

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I spoke to who goes round every day round all the shops to get the deals

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so that she can feed her family. She cooks five meals a day, partly

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because she picks up the grandkids after school and feeds them, and

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then his son -- her son comes home and feeds them. The food that she is

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making is better than takeaway food. We need to get away from the idea

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that cheap meat is cheap. It's not cheap. It is cheap at the till, but

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that is only one of the times you pay for it. You pay for it again in

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your taxes through farm subsidies, and you pay for it again because

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cheap meat causes things like antibiotic resistance, contributes

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to some dietary diseases. So cheap meat is actually more expensive? For

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us as a society, yes. The cost has to be paid for somehow, and people

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are paying for that. Day to day, people don't think like that. I

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think they do. They tried to do the best they can. Parents with kids who

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are working all day, they come home and they have to feed the kids

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something they can afford, know how to make and that the children will

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eat. That is the day-to-day living with it. Matt, you are a farmer. It

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is your business, but you say we should eat less meat? I try to eat

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and drink only food that I know where the ingredients are from. You

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end up eating less processed food. It is a better diet. You look

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forward to your meals more. It's almost going back to the

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old-fashioned... Not everybody can afford that. You see people at the

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garage queueing up and buying processed sandwiches, pasties and

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sugary drinks. Lets see what people are saying at home and on social

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media. Johnny says that people want their mates to have as good a life

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as possible, but sometimes the cost and the morals do not add up. Peggy

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says she doesn't understand why some people don't care about where food

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comes from. It's your body and your life. Eating bad food is like

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filling up your car with water and wondering why it won't start. Rob

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says as long as the food tastes good, it doesn't matter where it

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comes from. What should people do if they are watching this and are

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worried about this? They should go to trusted sources to buy their food

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and think about what they are doing, but within the context of their

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lives. Money is important. Thank you very much indeed.

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Martine McCutcheon rose to fame at the age of 18

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But her character in the BBC soap met a dramatic end

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and she was written out of the series.

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Martine went on to forge a career as a singer before returning

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to acting big time in the film Love Actually.

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Now, after battling her way through illness, she is back

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Hello. Hallo! I'm going to ask you not to make a huge leap of

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imagination, but just imagine I am the 18-year-old Martine McCutcheon.

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Knowing what you know now, what would you say to her?

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Take what is said with a pinch of salt, believe yourself, and trust

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your instinct, and laugh along the way. The reason you would say that

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now is because you were not laughing it off? They criticise you when you

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were trying to find out who you are and you are so young, it is

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important to have good self-esteem and believe in yourself a genuinely

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believe in yourself. Something I would have loved to have done would

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be preserved myself. So when you came into East Enders and became

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this huge character, four years, is it strange to look back at say it

:15:59.:16:03.

was only four years? It felt like ten years but it was not, four

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years, that was it. Hello, Tiffany. What are you doing here? Nice

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surprise, is it? You shouldn't be here, you are not supposed to be

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anywhere near Courteney. It was unfortunately a sad demise and when

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you were not comfortable with, not how you wanted to leave Eastenders?

:16:33.:16:39.

No, there is a lot of press saying I am still upset to this day about it,

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of course I am not, it is just the way it was done, I heard it on the

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radio driving along, Tiffany is being killed off and I thought, they

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must be wrong, and I turned up and thereby paparazzi saying, how do you

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feel? I don't know, I don't know what is going gone. You must know,

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no, I don't know. I'm going to call the police! Mum, no.

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How intrusive has the press been in your life? Have they ever crossed a

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line? Yes, definitely, many things, things that you feel quite

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uncomfortable about it, they have gone way too far. The thing is, I am

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kind of old school, I believe when you do this job, of course people to

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a degree will want to know about you and your life but there should be a

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point, you should have your rights as a person and your privacy when

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you really need it. The small clan around me that I did have, I started

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to doubt them because there were stories and quotes and everything, I

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did say that, but the rest of it was wrong, and it was a bizarre,

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horrible time. Brilliant pounds, and then... Is it true that you want

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asked God to send you a sign as to whether you would carry on acting?

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After My Fair Lady, I had really awful press and it went on and on

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for months and months. I thought, I did not sign up for this, I just

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want to entertain people. I went to see some friends in Spain and

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thought, if you want me to be in this stinking business committee

:18:50.:18:53.

need to be one hell of a sign. Just let me know! Forgot about it.

:18:54.:19:06.

Amazing, isn't it?! Forgot about it! And literally within a day of being

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in Spain I got a phone call from my agent saying, Richard Curtis wants

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you to read for the lead in a film called Love Actually with Hugh

:19:16.:19:21.

Grant. I was looking up to God thinking, you don't muck about, do

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you?! Oh, hello. Hello. This is my mum and

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my dad and my uncle and my aunt. Very nice to meet you. And this is

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the Prime Minister. We can see that, darling. You are a bit of a

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religious person? I do believe in God, I believe in something else out

:19:49.:19:53.

there, I believe life is so much more than this. For someone who

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works as hard as you, while Cooper a decade away, what was the point when

:20:00.:20:05.

you thought, I need to go back into the studio? It was more, I need to

:20:06.:20:10.

write something, I need to be creative. It was so cathartic for

:20:11.:20:18.

me. # Stars around the consolation.

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# Say I'm not alone. # I can't believe it...

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It really is the full gamut of your emotions? Celebrity is a dirty word

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in the world today, and you forget what people are doing with their

:20:45.:20:48.

careers and their lives, you become a victim of your own name. Of course

:20:49.:20:52.

you have got Celebrity Big Brother, I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here!

:20:53.:20:57.

, you have been offered a few of these? Why have you always said no?

:20:58.:21:06.

I wanted to stay away from that. I think Strictly is the closest you

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could do but even then, because performing is what I do, can I stand

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up in front of millions of people and be told I am a two? Martine

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McCutcheon, thank you so much. Martine McCutcheon,

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concentrating on singing rather Still to come on Sunday

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Morning Live... Mehreen Baig acts as a pair of eyes

:21:26.:21:27.

on a holiday for blind people. When you are travelling with a

:21:28.:21:39.

visually impaired person, I guess a sighted person might become aware of

:21:40.:21:44.

the other senses, because we are not focused on site, we can hear things,

:21:45.:21:50.

small things. Oh, that is nice. That is nice.

:21:51.:21:51.

Now what do you think of this picture?

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It's a bunch of blokes who decided to dress up in drag as female nurses

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But Shropshire Health Authority refused the ?2500 donation

:21:58.:22:03.

to Ludlow Hospital because they said the stunt was highly sexualised,

:22:04.:22:06.

insulting, and demeaning to the nursing profession.

:22:07.:22:10.

The decision has left the fundraisers baffled.

:22:11.:22:17.

I don't think any of us set out to cause any offence. You only have to

:22:18.:22:24.

walk around the town to see the smiles on people's faces. I'm

:22:25.:22:30.

flabbergasted, I can't believe anybody would send 2500 back.

:22:31.:22:33.

Also this week, a recruitment campaign by police

:22:34.:22:35.

in Edinburgh suffered a social media backlash.

:22:36.:22:37.

It used a picture of three policewomen with the caption,

:22:38.:22:41.

That was criticised for being condescending

:22:42.:22:43.

The police say the image was designed to challenge

:22:44.:22:47.

stereotypes and show there are opportunities for all.

:22:48.:22:51.

So are people being too sensitive, or is there blatant sexism at work

:22:52.:22:54.

Joining me now are James Delingpole, who is a journalist.

:22:55.:23:02.

Andrea Trainer, who's a consultant on diversity for businesses.

:23:03.:23:10.

James, what do you make of it? Judging by your face, I think you

:23:11.:23:24.

are disgusted?! I think the hospital would have been quite grateful for

:23:25.:23:31.

that ?2500. I'm not sure the chief executive who made the decision was

:23:32.:23:36.

really thinking about the hospital. Most ordinary people I think would

:23:37.:23:39.

disagree quite strongly with what he did. ?2500, the NHS is short of

:23:40.:23:47.

cash, Poppy, are we being too sensitive here? I think that story

:23:48.:23:56.

is quite a bizarre story, it is obviously a strange thing that has

:23:57.:24:01.

gone on there. You can point out one story like that and say we are too

:24:02.:24:06.

politically correct. A number of stories recently, a Labour MP

:24:07.:24:12.

writing an article brandishing Pakistani men as being sexual

:24:13.:24:19.

deviants, the president of the United States talking about touching

:24:20.:24:22.

women inappropriately, the idea that we are all confined by political

:24:23.:24:30.

correctness and nobody can move... We will deal with those broader

:24:31.:24:33.

issues in a moment, let's get to the heart of the story. Samanthi, you

:24:34.:24:36.

have got an interesting guest. With me now is Mark Hiles,

:24:37.:24:38.

one of the fundraisers from Shropshire who dressed up

:24:39.:24:40.

as a female nurse. Thank you for joining us. What do

:24:41.:24:46.

you make of the response to your fundraising? It has gone absolutely

:24:47.:24:52.

crazy. Just a regular bunch of guys from Ludlow, we dressed as nurses to

:24:53.:25:00.

get as much awareness out there as we possibly could, the community had

:25:01.:25:06.

great fun, we raised a lot of money to go to the hospital. Unfortunately

:25:07.:25:14.

they said it was demeaning to the staff and sexualising the profession

:25:15.:25:19.

and they don't want our money. Was it a mistake to dress as a female

:25:20.:25:22.

nurse? You could have dressed as doctors? In the past, various

:25:23.:25:29.

outings have done doctors, other things, it is just one of those

:25:30.:25:35.

things where we have done it because it raises more awareness than people

:25:36.:25:38.

stand out from the crowd more. If we were just in regular scrubs, I don't

:25:39.:25:42.

think we would get that much attention. The more attention we

:25:43.:25:47.

get, the better, everyone was taking pictures with us, asking questions

:25:48.:25:50.

about the hospital that we were raising the money for, what was

:25:51.:25:55.

happening with the hospital. It was just great fun. Do you see any

:25:56.:26:02.

validity in the concerns that it sexualising and demeans the

:26:03.:26:04.

profession for female nurses who perhaps face sexual harassment at

:26:05.:26:12.

work? Absolutely not, no. There are lots of nurses out there who have

:26:13.:26:16.

done this in the past, I have not come across anybody that had a

:26:17.:26:20.

problem it. What has happened with the money? At present it is being

:26:21.:26:29.

held, it will get spent on Ludlow hospital in some way, the details of

:26:30.:26:37.

that and not with me but we are just raising the money, I guess. Sean,

:26:38.:26:45.

what do you think? I will put that to Poppy, lovely guy raising money

:26:46.:26:51.

for the local hospital? I suppose that is what I am saying, this is

:26:52.:26:56.

one scenario, a very strange scenario, and it emphasises this

:26:57.:27:01.

situation, raising money for the local hospital, I get it, but is it

:27:02.:27:07.

a sign that we are somehow madly at politically correct society? You

:27:08.:27:13.

don't have to look far to see how politically incorrect we are at any

:27:14.:27:18.

level in the public sphere. Andrea, you are a consultant on diversity,

:27:19.:27:22.

are you concerned when you see men dressing up as women like that? No,

:27:23.:27:30.

no. We have to bring it to the language and actions, the intent.

:27:31.:27:37.

The real issue is why a group of guys is having to push a trolley

:27:38.:27:40.

around a community to raise money for vital equipment. The real issue

:27:41.:27:46.

is why the Scottish police force is having to put a selfie on social

:27:47.:27:51.

media to promote policewomen. Those are the real issues. People are

:27:52.:27:54.

fearful of being labelled and those conversations are being shut down. I

:27:55.:28:01.

can see both sides. The idea of political correctness, what we're

:28:02.:28:08.

labelled, how we are discussed, how society views us, and each time we

:28:09.:28:14.

change the language of political correctness, as it were, it pushes

:28:15.:28:19.

society forward. 200 years ago I would have been a slave. 50 years

:28:20.:28:24.

ago I would have been called coloured. Look at sexism, I would

:28:25.:28:32.

have been my father's daughter, then my husband's wife, but now I can be

:28:33.:28:39.

called Miss, it is the idea that the language we use pushes society

:28:40.:28:42.

forward and reflects who we want to be and where we see ourselves. Mark,

:28:43.:28:48.

you have heard the comments, would you do anything differently next

:28:49.:28:55.

year? We would obviously be aware of people's feelings, I guess, if they

:28:56.:29:01.

are that strong, but we are going to carry on doing the service every

:29:02.:29:06.

year. Dressing up as nurses? Absolutely, yes, we will do exactly

:29:07.:29:09.

the same next year, we are not harming anybody. We have great

:29:10.:29:16.

respect for the nursing profession and everybody out there, we are just

:29:17.:29:20.

having a bit of fun. You going to stop people dressing up in the

:29:21.:29:25.

London Marathon to raise money? Do you feel you have a point to prove

:29:26.:29:29.

here? Definitely, yes, we are going to carry on doing we are doing. We

:29:30.:29:33.

should be able to dress how we want to dress. So we will be covering

:29:34.:29:38.

this story next year! Thank you very much. My pleasure. Let's move on to

:29:39.:29:45.

Edinburgh police force, three policewomen and a caption reading,

:29:46.:29:48.

more than just pretty faces. Some said it was a throwback to the

:29:49.:29:55.

1970s, haven't we moved on? The conversation shouldn't be about what

:29:56.:29:59.

language, we come back to the intent. The picture was taken to

:30:00.:30:06.

promote the force as a place for everyone. But it caused offence to

:30:07.:30:14.

some people? Again, you have to come back to intent. The intent was a

:30:15.:30:18.

valid and good one. There are issues of gender imbalance in the police

:30:19.:30:22.

force, this was done with positive intent. Sophia, political

:30:23.:30:26.

correctness helps to shift attitudes, you mention how you would

:30:27.:30:30.

have been referred to 50, 100 years ago, but are we in danger of going

:30:31.:30:35.

too far? A friend of mine would say someone was trying to describe me

:30:36.:30:38.

the other day and was scared to say that I am mixed race or black, they

:30:39.:30:42.

were talking about the colour of my eyes or the colour of my hair! The

:30:43.:30:45.

obvious thing to describe me is mixed race or black. It is whether

:30:46.:30:53.

we can self identify, the issue in Scotland, that is how they identify,

:30:54.:30:59.

yes, it goes back to those Juliet Bravo policing issues that we

:31:00.:31:05.

remember from the 70s, but the whole idea of a lot of people at the

:31:06.:31:13.

moment said, am I mixed race? Look at the Obama daughters... White that

:31:14.:31:18.

offensive? Look at what we have got at the moment with race, we have got

:31:19.:31:25.

this whole idea that you have to have your nation and your race

:31:26.:31:32.

side-by-side, you are black British, African-American, but if I use the

:31:33.:31:35.

word Anglo-Saxon I know that James will convulse in shock!

:31:36.:31:40.

I think we are hearing some elegant distractions from the issue. We are

:31:41.:31:48.

talking about two specific stories that people are looking at. What

:31:49.:31:54.

kind of world do we live in? Who are these offence Gestapo who go out

:31:55.:31:59.

there looking to be offended by stuff? The person who wrote the

:32:00.:32:03.

advert for Police Scotland was a woman. She wasn't aware that you

:32:04.:32:07.

can't talk about pretty faces any more. I think she was in the

:32:08.:32:15.

photograph herself. She was. There were three. Whatever. The women in

:32:16.:32:21.

the photograph and the person who wrote the copy were on board with

:32:22.:32:26.

the problem, and yet, other people on the Internet, which is a terrible

:32:27.:32:31.

place for this kind of nonsense, there is a hard-core of licensed,

:32:32.:32:36.

professional offence takers who go round seeking to make everyone else

:32:37.:32:41.

feel uncomfortable, and they are taking the normality away from our

:32:42.:32:47.

world. Samanthi, what have people said? Ryan said that people are

:32:48.:32:51.

getting fed up because we see how phoney the idea of political

:32:52.:33:01.

correctness is. Abdul says we have far right protest every month,

:33:02.:33:07.

incredible levels of hate crime, so no, we haven't gone far enough with

:33:08.:33:13.

political correctness. Peter says, far too much PC rubbish these days.

:33:14.:33:17.

People want the right to be offended whether something might have been

:33:18.:33:22.

said in jest or in humour. Chris says that teachers at school were

:33:23.:33:29.

happy to throw insults at black kids, and if being PC stops this,

:33:30.:33:33.

that is a good thing. What would you like to see going forward? It's

:33:34.:33:41.

important to keep on having an open discussion. The point of political

:33:42.:33:45.

correctness is not to stifle people, it's to be able to have a discussion

:33:46.:33:51.

about important issues in society and to move forward. This discussion

:33:52.:33:55.

isn't new. It was happening in the 90s when I was younger, and fully

:33:56.:34:01.

grown women attacked me in the streets and shouted racist slurs at

:34:02.:34:05.

me. It's important to remember that we are not in some kind of new age

:34:06.:34:11.

where we are suddenly very politically correct. It is an

:34:12.:34:16.

argument that comes up frequently to shut down progressive conversation.

:34:17.:34:17.

Thank you all very much indeed. Talking about mental health was once

:34:18.:34:25.

something of a taboo subject. But increasingly

:34:26.:34:27.

people are opening up. A new book is contributing

:34:28.:34:29.

to that change in mood. It's by Katharine Welby-Roberts,

:34:30.:34:31.

the daughter of the Archbishop She's suffered from severe

:34:32.:34:33.

depression and, despite her father's role as a church man,

:34:34.:34:36.

was reluctant to confide Wendy Robbins has been

:34:37.:34:38.

to meet Katharine, who, after marrying and having a baby,

:34:39.:34:42.

is in a much better place. Katherine Welby-Roberts and her

:34:43.:34:51.

husband Mike live in Reading with their baby son and dog. Katherine

:34:52.:34:58.

has struggled with depression, anxiety and chronic fatigue syndrome

:34:59.:35:03.

since adolescence. What were you like as a teenager? I was always

:35:04.:35:09.

very shy when I met new people, and then I became my normal boisterous

:35:10.:35:14.

self. I was the vicar's kid, and everyone knew it. That was when I

:35:15.:35:21.

was a teenager. What did that mean? People would judge my behaviour and

:35:22.:35:27.

report back here, or just judge me. Do you remember feeling sad when you

:35:28.:35:32.

were growing up? The depression took old when I was 15 or so. A group of

:35:33.:35:39.

friends that I had been very good friends with, one summer, I came

:35:40.:35:45.

back to school and they did the analog version of an friending me.

:35:46.:35:52.

Then I got a glandular fever. I was quite ill for some time. I had to

:35:53.:36:01.

give up a couple of GCSEs. You throw into society's expectations of you,

:36:02.:36:07.

always needing to be better. It was a kind of perfect recipe for

:36:08.:36:13.

depression and anxiety. Katherine's mental health got worse over the

:36:14.:36:19.

next few years, and at 22, she experienced suicidal thoughts. I've

:36:20.:36:23.

always been able to logically observe, to a degree, what is

:36:24.:36:27.

happening. I knew logically I didn't want to hurt myself, so I did as

:36:28.:36:33.

much as I had the energy for to try and prevent that. The worst I got

:36:34.:36:39.

was banging my head on the walls, and that's as bad as I got in terms

:36:40.:36:43.

of action. Were your parents aware at this stage of what was going on?

:36:44.:36:48.

I don't think I really communicated with them about it, or let them see

:36:49.:36:54.

how bad it was. Do you think they understood the depths of what you

:36:55.:36:57.

were going through all what mental health was? They were learning on

:36:58.:37:04.

the job, in a way. It is your dad's job to look after the sick and the

:37:05.:37:09.

vulnerable, so it is strange, looking back, that you didn't seek

:37:10.:37:15.

help. A lot of people, as teenagers, don't necessarily talk to their

:37:16.:37:20.

parents. I felt I wanted to protect them as well and not burden them,

:37:21.:37:25.

and that is a very common theme with mental health problems, that you are

:37:26.:37:31.

a burden to those you love. Today, Katherine faces a daily battle to

:37:32.:37:36.

manage those illnesses, which impacts on her life with her

:37:37.:37:40.

husband. He has to do a lot more than he probably would if I was

:37:41.:37:44.

healthy. I'm always worried that he's going to leave me, that he's

:37:45.:37:49.

going to fall out of love with me, that I've upset him. Last year,

:37:50.:37:54.

Katherine and Mike became parents for the first time. Has been

:37:55.:38:01.

responsible for another meant that you have been less inside your head?

:38:02.:38:08.

I think it definitely has, because you just don't have the time, do

:38:09.:38:13.

you? But it goes both ways. You could completely put off thinking

:38:14.:38:21.

about how you are doing mentally, and become significantly more ill.

:38:22.:38:27.

I've tried to try and get a balance between at least being aware of how

:38:28.:38:32.

I'm feeling and how I'm doing. The one thing I want to try and avoid,

:38:33.:38:38.

if at all possible, is having a breakdown. And being unable to get

:38:39.:38:47.

through it. What role has your faith played in all this? To have the

:38:48.:38:52.

knowledge that I am unconditionally loved by God, and that he is aware

:38:53.:38:59.

of this, that he is engaged with me, that he is walking with me, that

:39:00.:39:06.

Jesus died for me, that he sent the holy spirit to comfort me and

:39:07.:39:10.

counsel me. All of that enables me to keep going. Why did you write the

:39:11.:39:16.

book? Having written the blog and talked about my mental health,

:39:17.:39:21.

people responded really well to you not saying, this is how to make

:39:22.:39:27.

yourself better, but to say this is what has made me better. It's an

:39:28.:39:32.

invitation to explore yourself rather than instructions on how to

:39:33.:39:37.

pull yourself together. And just as a way to enable people and invite

:39:38.:39:43.

people to explore what it means to accept themselves as themselves. Has

:39:44.:39:48.

your dad read the book and what does he think? He likes it. That's my

:39:49.:39:52.

favourite thing. Katharine Welby-Roberts -

:39:53.:39:56.

and we wish her and her family well. The care home system

:39:57.:39:58.

is teetering "on the edge", and funding shortages risks

:39:59.:40:02.

"catastrophic failure" Those strong words from

:40:03.:40:03.

the boss of one of the UK's With a growing elderly population,

:40:04.:40:07.

the demand for care But is it fair for the NHS to bear

:40:08.:40:10.

so much of the strain, or should families take more

:40:11.:40:14.

of the burden? To help answer that question,

:40:15.:40:16.

I'm now joined by Sonia Dave Clements, a writer and advisor

:40:17.:40:19.

on social care policy. And re-joining us is

:40:20.:40:23.

barrister Sophia Cannon. Sonia, we expect families to take

:40:24.:40:38.

care of children. No one would ever doubt that. Why is it different when

:40:39.:40:43.

it comes to older relatives? The first thing to say is that families

:40:44.:40:50.

already do do a lot of caring. The latest study showed that family

:40:51.:40:54.

members put in over 7 billion hours of caring for elderly relatives.

:40:55.:41:00.

There's a lot that does go on. Lots are in care homes, but when you are

:41:01.:41:04.

looking at people who have advanced dementia or very serious physical

:41:05.:41:09.

impairment, these are not conditions that family members without

:41:10.:41:13.

professional training can care for people round the clock. Some of

:41:14.:41:18.

these people need round-the-clock care, and family members can't do

:41:19.:41:22.

that. They cannot give up jobs altogether. What about those who

:41:23.:41:27.

don't need round-the-clock care, who are just elderly and frail? With the

:41:28.:41:33.

significant cuts in funding we are seeing, older people, even when they

:41:34.:41:38.

have quite significant levels of care need, are not always getting

:41:39.:41:42.

the support they need from the care system. AgeUK estimates that there

:41:43.:41:47.

are over 1 million older people who don't get the help they need with

:41:48.:41:51.

basic tasks like washing and dressing. It is a really sad state

:41:52.:41:56.

of affairs. Family members need to do their bit, but it cannot all be

:41:57.:42:02.

left to them. Sophia, you are working mum. Men and women have to

:42:03.:42:08.

work to pay the mortgage. How realistic is it to expect families

:42:09.:42:12.

to care for the elderly? We have a new situation in society, which has

:42:13.:42:17.

just come on in the last few years or so. I call it the grampa Joe

:42:18.:42:24.

scenario. We all remember watching Charlie and the chocolate factory,

:42:25.:42:28.

where there are four grandparents all tucked up in that double bed.

:42:29.:42:33.

Demographics is now suggesting that we are going to have one grandchild

:42:34.:42:40.

for four grandparents. We with families and houses have to adapt.

:42:41.:42:44.

If you have a teenage child in your house, in the next ten years or so,

:42:45.:42:50.

that child will move out. Why not think about a family plan and

:42:51.:42:55.

bringing back the grandparents into that household? Rebecca, the idea of

:42:56.:43:01.

families doing more, isn't that just the state getting out of its duties?

:43:02.:43:06.

Those people have paid lots of taxes. In my community it is the

:43:07.:43:12.

norm that you bring granny into live with you. You respect elderly

:43:13.:43:16.

relatives and see they have something to give. You say the

:43:17.:43:21.

elderly as if it is a demographic that's a problem. It's a resource of

:43:22.:43:29.

wonderful experience, and not least childcare, to be really pragmatic.

:43:30.:43:34.

Myself and my friends use grandparents to do childcare,

:43:35.:43:38.

because who better to look after your child than grandma? I do think

:43:39.:43:42.

there's a difference between a grandparent who is really healthy

:43:43.:43:46.

and doesn't have advanced care needs, who can help with the

:43:47.:43:53.

childcare. But we do tend to fetishise some cultures where we

:43:54.:43:57.

say, they tend to do more care within the family and that's great.

:43:58.:44:03.

Japan didn't have a system of care homes before 2000, and they had huge

:44:04.:44:07.

problems with abuse of older people in the home, because they had

:44:08.:44:12.

younger people who were not able to care for people who needed

:44:13.:44:16.

round-the-clock care. Family relationships were breaking down.

:44:17.:44:22.

The state has to provide a minimum level of support. Samanthi, who are

:44:23.:44:23.

you talking to? With me now is Dawinder Bansal,

:44:24.:44:27.

who cares for her mother at home. Your mother is in her late 70s and

:44:28.:44:37.

you are juggling caring for her with your job. How are you managing? I

:44:38.:44:44.

transitioned from being a young carer to an adult carer, so I have

:44:45.:44:49.

been caring for her for a number of years along with my sister and some

:44:50.:44:54.

siblings. One of the most difficult things is juggling, because even

:44:55.:44:59.

though I do work and I have a senior position, it is about holding down a

:45:00.:45:04.

senior position with a company, about well-being, but about having a

:45:05.:45:09.

full social life as well. There are challenges around being able to live

:45:10.:45:19.

a life whereby you are living a bit more of your own life and having to

:45:20.:45:23.

think about somebody else. Have you ever considered looking for a home

:45:24.:45:28.

to care for your mum? I would never ever consider putting my mother into

:45:29.:45:34.

a home, unless, like one of your guests has said, about advanced care

:45:35.:45:40.

needs. I'm second-generation Asian, and for me, that pioneering

:45:41.:45:45.

generation sacrificed so much, and I've seen how my parents sacrificed

:45:46.:45:49.

so much for me to have the life I've got, so it's not something I would

:45:50.:45:54.

ever consider. A lot of people my age who are also second generation

:45:55.:46:01.

would agree with me on that, I think. The philosophy of growing up

:46:02.:46:05.

and see our parents care for their parents is now ingrained within me,

:46:06.:46:10.

and with people who have seen the same thing. It's very much a case of

:46:11.:46:17.

families who have the capability and have that family structure whereby

:46:18.:46:23.

they can take more responsibility for looking after their elders, they

:46:24.:46:27.

should do that. I don't personally think it should be, just because

:46:28.:46:32.

you've paid into the tax system, you are going to get the care you need.

:46:33.:46:38.

I think it's a very complex and multilayered situation. Everybody's

:46:39.:46:44.

situation is different. You might have family members, elder people in

:46:45.:46:48.

the community, who don't have that structure around them, and they do

:46:49.:46:53.

need that support. But wherever there is a family structure to

:46:54.:46:57.

support an older person, regardless of your culture and background, I

:46:58.:47:02.

think 100% effort should be made by those families to look after their

:47:03.:47:07.

elders. Thank you. An interesting account there.

:47:08.:47:13.

So Dawinder feels it is her duty to look after that generation because

:47:14.:47:19.

they were the pioneers who came here, is it a poor reflection on our

:47:20.:47:24.

society that many other cultures do not feel that? When I think about my

:47:25.:47:31.

parents, I think I feel similarly to Dawinder, but not all adults, not

:47:32.:47:35.

all older adults will have that family they can rely on. They feel

:47:36.:47:42.

very isolated and lonely, there are also increasing numbers of older

:47:43.:47:45.

people who will not have children, they will not have that family

:47:46.:47:49.

structure, that is a really big social issue. The state needs to

:47:50.:47:55.

provide a basic safety net. Families absolutely have to do their bit but

:47:56.:47:59.

because of modern living some people are not able to have children, some

:48:00.:48:03.

people's children might live on the other side of the world, for

:48:04.:48:08.

example. Society is judged by how older people are looked after and I

:48:09.:48:14.

don't think it is just children but community, it is neighbours... I

:48:15.:48:21.

absolutely agree. When people cannot rely on that, they rely on social

:48:22.:48:27.

care. You have worked on ideas to improve social care. If we funded

:48:28.:48:31.

care homes better would the system be better? No. There is a funding

:48:32.:48:43.

crisis in social care, care workers should be paid the national living

:48:44.:48:50.

wage or more, but for me it is more about the crisis of care in which we

:48:51.:48:55.

hear of people being neglectful in care homes, conditions in care homes

:48:56.:49:01.

being poured... Is that not just money? Know, some of these things,

:49:02.:49:08.

sometimes it is peeling wallpaper, basic things. How can we change

:49:09.:49:13.

that? At the moment we have an audit culture, a focus on targets, meeting

:49:14.:49:20.

objectives external to care homes. That is not a helpful way to

:49:21.:49:24.

proceed. We need to involve the people who work in the care homes

:49:25.:49:28.

more in the decision-making, and the people who live there. I completely

:49:29.:49:33.

agree because if we look at the care home system, the philosophy that

:49:34.:49:36.

runs through it is, these are older people who are at the start of a

:49:37.:49:42.

physical and mental decline and our job is to manage that process, it is

:49:43.:49:50.

about how can we keep these people say for as long as possible? It is

:49:51.:49:56.

not about, how can we help them lead a flourishing and fulfilling life,

:49:57.:50:00.

and I feel in our culture we basically right older people off

:50:01.:50:02.

when they started to decline, just make sure they are physically safe

:50:03.:50:07.

until they fade away. I think there is a myth that older people are a

:50:08.:50:13.

burden on families. That is not the case. Around 3% of 65 plus older

:50:14.:50:21.

people use care homes. The majority of people have care in the home will

:50:22.:50:30.

stop I think we need to get beyond the notion that old people are

:50:31.:50:36.

blocking beds, etc, it is not helpful. Let's find out what people

:50:37.:50:41.

are saying at home. Some agreement with the panel, Susie is a fan of

:50:42.:50:44.

caring for a relative unless they have dementia, which can be tiring

:50:45.:50:49.

and frightening. We live in a meet society and it is time to go back to

:50:50.:50:52.

caring for our families. Catherine says there should be more

:50:53.:50:56.

emphasis on family ties and duties rather than just stuffing them in a

:50:57.:51:00.

home if they are a burden, unheard of in other parts of the world.

:51:01.:51:04.

Another says, if you love a person, you care for them, age does not

:51:05.:51:10.

matter. Natalie raises a question which

:51:11.:51:12.

comes up in these debates, she says, I feel increasing the that there is

:51:13.:51:21.

a moral question of people who do not care for older people when they

:51:22.:51:25.

are young, yet expect people will care for them when they reach that

:51:26.:51:28.

age. We need to change the mindset, do we

:51:29.:51:33.

not? When you bring up children you put time and energy into it, you get

:51:34.:51:39.

pleasure from seeing them walk and talk, should we not be seeing it in

:51:40.:51:47.

the same way with elderly people? We help a mother and father looked

:51:48.:51:51.

after a baby because we can see how vulnerable it is. The issue with

:51:52.:51:54.

older people is they are very vulnerable as well but we often

:51:55.:51:59.

don't see the charm that babies have, so you don't want to help and

:52:00.:52:06.

go round. When a new baby is born everybody goes round with food but

:52:07.:52:11.

with an older person, not many people are knocking on doors in the

:52:12.:52:14.

same way. Let's bring Dawinder back in. Children have a lot more charm

:52:15.:52:21.

than elderly people, do you ask yourself that question every date?!

:52:22.:52:25.

I look at it as an honour to look after my parents, actually, because

:52:26.:52:31.

they have cared for me to be who I am today so why should I not give

:52:32.:52:35.

that back to them? But I think there is this thing when you are looking

:52:36.:52:40.

after children, you always know that they will transition out of that,

:52:41.:52:43.

whereas with older people you know that it is going to be a decline,

:52:44.:52:49.

they will get progressively more difficult, so I think that is the

:52:50.:52:53.

difference. But the other things to add in here is about the

:52:54.:52:58.

understanding we have from our employers, and I was very lucky and

:52:59.:53:04.

fortunate to have managers who have always understood my personal

:53:05.:53:08.

situation and have given me the time off when I have needed it, they have

:53:09.:53:14.

been very understanding and I think while we are looking at care homes

:53:15.:53:19.

and talking about money being pumped in there, I think it needs to be...

:53:20.:53:23.

I'm afraid we are running out of time, Dawinder, but thank you very

:53:24.:53:26.

much for joining us, and thank you to the panel as well.

:53:27.:53:28.

Now, over the long Bank Holiday weekend many people will be taking

:53:29.:53:31.

And Mehreen Baig is off on a seaside trip for us, too.

:53:32.:53:35.

But it's not for relaxation - she's taking on a new job.

:53:36.:53:41.

Sightseeing is one of the most enjoyable things on any holiday but

:53:42.:53:47.

today I'm on the Isle of Wight with a group of travellers with a

:53:48.:53:55.

difference. Half of them are blind. The tour is led by this man who

:53:56.:54:04.

became blind at 18 as a result of a genetic condition and quickly

:54:05.:54:06.

realised that holidays had become more difficult. Every time I tried

:54:07.:54:13.

to travel, travel company said, you are blind, you cannot travel with

:54:14.:54:18.

us, and I realised that if you want something in this world that does

:54:19.:54:20.

not exist, you either do without all build it yourself. So he came up

:54:21.:54:25.

with the idea of a tour company for blind people called Travel Eyes,

:54:26.:54:34.

which matches visually impaired travellers with sighted travellers

:54:35.:54:40.

and today he is going to show me how it works. So I would take your arm

:54:41.:54:47.

officially the person takes the back of the elbow, a few steps behind

:54:48.:54:55.

you, so if you were to disappear off the edge of the cliff then I would

:54:56.:55:00.

know to stop! Crucially, I have to describe what I see. Down the

:55:01.:55:05.

right-hand side there is an endless of water. Silvery blue water. We had

:55:06.:55:13.

to the Needles, one of the Isle of Wight's most popular attractions.

:55:14.:55:19.

Maybe you can take my hand and brought them out as well? OK, so...

:55:20.:55:31.

Said this is the first one, and the second one, which looks like the

:55:32.:55:36.

longest one, then there is a stack of water, then the one closest to

:55:37.:55:42.

us. Today is all about senses other than site. Look what I got you! Oh,

:55:43.:55:53.

that is nice. When you are travelling with the

:55:54.:55:58.

visually impaired person, as a sighted person you might become more

:55:59.:56:02.

aware of the other senses because we are not focused on sight, we get a

:56:03.:56:08.

chance to touch things come, taste things. And we don't do that enough,

:56:09.:56:14.

I guess? I have learned a lot so far but I want to know how the

:56:15.:56:17.

experience has been for the rest of the group. To be able to come here

:56:18.:56:21.

by myself and have the independence to explore different places, to be

:56:22.:56:26.

able to sit and laugh with everyone else, I know that there are so many

:56:27.:56:30.

women and girls who will never get that opportunity. As the day goes on

:56:31.:56:33.

I feel I am getting the hang of this. I am old enough to take him

:56:34.:56:43.

down 180 steps to the beach. All in front of us now is the water. Is

:56:44.:56:50.

that pebbles I can hear? It is, it is all pebbles. Then a close-up view

:56:51.:56:57.

of the island's famous coloured sand rocks.

:56:58.:57:06.

It is literally flat, like someone just touched it.

:57:07.:57:11.

It is a popular souvenir, too. What have we got here? A bottle in the

:57:12.:57:17.

shape of the guitar and I filled it up at Beesands shop here in the bay.

:57:18.:57:22.

Why did you choose a bottle in the shape of the guitar? It is such an

:57:23.:57:26.

interesting shape and you can feel the strings as well. Can you? Oh, my

:57:27.:57:33.

goodness, you can! I have wanted to come to the Needles and do the

:57:34.:57:36.

coloured sand for years, it was on my to do list before I died. How

:57:37.:57:42.

lovely! We are firm travel buddies now and

:57:43.:57:47.

the friendship is about to be tested.

:57:48.:57:53.

And now we step onto the boat. OK. You might need to save me! I have

:57:54.:58:00.

got you. Cheese! This trip has been a learning curve for me. In a

:58:01.:58:09.

sighted Society you don't get to appreciate all the things about you

:58:10.:58:12.

but these people are taking their time to describe all of the little

:58:13.:58:16.

details and it teaches you to live in the moment and appreciate where

:58:17.:58:21.

you are, surrounded by beautiful things.

:58:22.:58:23.

That's nearly all from us for this week.

:58:24.:58:24.

But why don't you join Samanthi for live chat online after the show?

:58:25.:58:28.

Yes, I'll be talking to barrister Sophia Cannon

:58:29.:58:29.

Log on to facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive

:58:30.:58:33.

In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole

:58:34.:58:37.

After scares about eggs, and now sausages, Sean Fletcher leads a debate about whether we should care more about where our food comes from. Katharine Welby-Roberts, daughter of the Archbishop of Canterbury, talks frankly about dealing with depression and why she initially chose not seek her father's help with her mental health problems.


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