Episode 11 Sunday Morning Live

Episode 11

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Another food scare - after eggs, it's suspect sausages.


Should we care more about where our food comes from?


A health authority turns down a ?2500 donation


because it was raised by men dressing up as female nurses.


Are we becoming too politically correct?


The Archbishop of Canterbury's daughter, Katharine Welby-Roberts,


talks about her battle with depression and why she didn't


seek her parents' help with her mental health problems.


I think I felt I needed to protect them from it as well, and not


burdened them, and that is a very common theme with mental health


problems, that you are a burden to those you love.


And actress and singer Martine McCutcheon tells us how


she nearly gave up showbusiness until she received an unexpected


I got a call from my agent saying, Martine, I know you told us not to


call you ever again, but we got a phone call from Richard Curtis who


wants you to read for a film with Hugh Grant. And I literally dropped


the phone. All that coming up -


and here with us today to sample your views


is Samanthi Flanagan. We'll also be looking at how we care


for our elderly. There's a warning that the care home


system is facing a catastrophe. So should families play a bigger


part in looking after relatives? We want you to get in touch


on all our discussions. You can contact us by


Facebook and Twitter - don't forget to use


the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed


by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your


standard message rate. Or email us at


[email protected] However you choose to get in touch,


please don't forget to include your name so I can get you involved


in the programme. First, just a fortnight after egg


products from four supermarkets were found to contain


an insecticide, now it's reported that pork products may have infected


people with hepatitis E. That's a virus that can


cause liver damage. The pork was not from


the UK, but imported. Nevertheless, these


latest scares have raised Should we care more


about where our food comes from? Joining me now to discuss


that are Matt Rymer, a cattle farmer and founder


of an organization set up to improve Dr Megan Blake, a senior lecturer


in Human Geological Studies. Emma Slawinski from


Compassion In World Farming. And Sally Bee, a healthy


eating campaigner. Mats, you are a farmer. How


concerned should we be about where our food comes from? I think the


consumer should ask more questions. The consumer can expect food to


become cheaper, but in a way, with food, less is more, and the consumer


needs to ask the questions to drive the change. White, though? Isn't


cheap food good? If you look at the food industry, provenance should


really begin on the farm at seed or birth, and follow through the chain


so that the consumer is empowered to know where those ingredients are


from. It's important because it's a global food industry. Millenials


particularly, the generation now, they want and care about how food is


reared and grown and the environmental impact, but they need


to ask those questions. Megan, you get what you pay for. If consumers


want to pay for cheap food, they get cheap food. Should we be thinking


more carefully about what we buy and what we eat? There were 3000 last


year in this country who died from food paralysis. There are over 1


million people in this country now who are going hungry, going to food


banks. So while I am very sympathetic to the idea of


provenance, I think it is a really middle-class problem. The bigger


issue is around things to do with diet and the fact that we have


people who are hungry. So if I am poor, it doesn't really matter if I


get hepatitis E through sausages because I'm getting food? Putting it


into perspective, the chances of getting hepatitis E from sausages


are very small, compared to, say, getting a diet related illness. That


is a different issue. Shouldn't we be thinking about the contribution


of cheap meat to those illnesses? If you are raising an animal in a very


intensive system and you are using an antibiotic to keep that animal


healthy, preventative antibiotics, those are the same antibiotics we


used to treat human health. On that point, I would disagree with you


that Providence should be a preoccupation exclusive to the


middle-class. Should be entitled to know where their food comes from. I


agree, but for the people I work with, that is so low on their list


of issues. They are concerned about whether or not they are going to be


able to feed their kids, whether they can do that in the time they


have, in the context of where they live. But to be able to know the


journey of your food, how it's been produced, is very relevant to your


health, especially with these health scares. Well, it's 3000 people. We


have traceability. It is about worrying about the guy who is


driving along text Inc. Its things you can't control. There have been


to food scares within a fortnight. It's important to put things into


perspective. We now have rolling 24 hour news, which needs to be filled


with something. 20 years ago, we went to watch the News at Ten, and


if there was a story on the headlines we would take notice of


it. Now there are constant news stories, on our phones, for example.


It is a complete balanced story. I'm from the position of health. I'm


about healthy eating, having as much transparency as possible, but also


making sure you can feed your kids. My advice to anybody is follow your


instincts and do the best you can. If you can afford to buy food that


you know exactly where it's come from, that is locally sourced, that


you know is doing your body and your children good, fantastic. If you


can't, you just have to do the best you can. I don't believe you have to


spend a lot of money to know where your food is coming from. Let's go


to Samanthi. Who have you got? With me now is Tracy Worcester,


a campaigner for better animal welfare in farming,


who's currently making a series of films with chefs who only use


meat from farms with high Thank you for joining us. We have


been hearing that it's unrealistic for poorer families to afford higher


welfare meat. How realistic and option is it? I spend a lot of time


asking people, would you look for higher welfare labels on your pork.


They say, yes, they would, but it's more expensive, and what difference


does it make if they do it on their own. I have been making a series of


films, starting with Pig Business, which has been shown around the


world. Then when I came to England, I was trying to stop local -- help


local people stop a pig farm, and they are very, very angry that this


pig farm is being proposed near them where it is well-known that the


people who live near these farms are getting antibiotic resistant


diseases, diseases which are spread further than the locality. You are


spreading the faeces of these factory farms on the films. We


cannot speak about this case because we don't know much about it. But


there's been so much controversy about different meat scares and some


people give up meat altogether. Is that a viable option? It is if you


are terrified about what you eat. You have a terribly powerful purse


which can say that you will pay the farmer a fair price and then you


look for the high welfare labels, like outdoor bred, free range and


organic. Many of us are eating too much meat. To reduce our meat intake


would avoid diseases like obesity, diabetes, heart disease and some


forms of cancer. That way you can spread your money and enjoy more


vegetables. But the production of vegetables also causes... We use


insecticides and chemical fertilisers, which people are


worried about as well. So a vegetable diet is not the answer


necessarily. You don't necessarily have to just eat vegetables. It's


just to reduce your meat intake to help spread the cost. If you look


for the better welfare labels, it is fractionally more expensive, but on


average, it's too sausages from a factory farm where the pigs are


being treated diabolically, treated with antibiotics just to keep them


alive, or it is one and a half sausages from a high welfare farm.


Thank you. A lot of interesting comments. Do we need to our


mentality? We need to eat less meat and eat better meet? I tried to eat


the food that you are talking about, but I can afford that. But we make


it cheaper. That's the point. We are sitting at home. Who is it that's


going out and doing this? In the community in Doncaster it's the


women who are trying to take home all these messages. There's a woman


I spoke to who goes round every day round all the shops to get the deals


so that she can feed her family. She cooks five meals a day, partly


because she picks up the grandkids after school and feeds them, and


then his son -- her son comes home and feeds them. The food that she is


making is better than takeaway food. We need to get away from the idea


that cheap meat is cheap. It's not cheap. It is cheap at the till, but


that is only one of the times you pay for it. You pay for it again in


your taxes through farm subsidies, and you pay for it again because


cheap meat causes things like antibiotic resistance, contributes


to some dietary diseases. So cheap meat is actually more expensive? For


us as a society, yes. The cost has to be paid for somehow, and people


are paying for that. Day to day, people don't think like that. I


think they do. They tried to do the best they can. Parents with kids who


are working all day, they come home and they have to feed the kids


something they can afford, know how to make and that the children will


eat. That is the day-to-day living with it. Matt, you are a farmer. It


is your business, but you say we should eat less meat? I try to eat


and drink only food that I know where the ingredients are from. You


end up eating less processed food. It is a better diet. You look


forward to your meals more. It's almost going back to the


old-fashioned... Not everybody can afford that. You see people at the


garage queueing up and buying processed sandwiches, pasties and


sugary drinks. Lets see what people are saying at home and on social


media. Johnny says that people want their mates to have as good a life


as possible, but sometimes the cost and the morals do not add up. Peggy


says she doesn't understand why some people don't care about where food


comes from. It's your body and your life. Eating bad food is like


filling up your car with water and wondering why it won't start. Rob


says as long as the food tastes good, it doesn't matter where it


comes from. What should people do if they are watching this and are


worried about this? They should go to trusted sources to buy their food


and think about what they are doing, but within the context of their


lives. Money is important. Thank you very much indeed.


Martine McCutcheon rose to fame at the age of 18


But her character in the BBC soap met a dramatic end


and she was written out of the series.


Martine went on to forge a career as a singer before returning


to acting big time in the film Love Actually.


Now, after battling her way through illness, she is back


Hello. Hallo! I'm going to ask you not to make a huge leap of


imagination, but just imagine I am the 18-year-old Martine McCutcheon.


Knowing what you know now, what would you say to her?


Take what is said with a pinch of salt, believe yourself, and trust


your instinct, and laugh along the way. The reason you would say that


now is because you were not laughing it off? They criticise you when you


were trying to find out who you are and you are so young, it is


important to have good self-esteem and believe in yourself a genuinely


believe in yourself. Something I would have loved to have done would


be preserved myself. So when you came into East Enders and became


this huge character, four years, is it strange to look back at say it


was only four years? It felt like ten years but it was not, four


years, that was it. Hello, Tiffany. What are you doing here? Nice


surprise, is it? You shouldn't be here, you are not supposed to be


anywhere near Courteney. It was unfortunately a sad demise and when


you were not comfortable with, not how you wanted to leave Eastenders?


No, there is a lot of press saying I am still upset to this day about it,


of course I am not, it is just the way it was done, I heard it on the


radio driving along, Tiffany is being killed off and I thought, they


must be wrong, and I turned up and thereby paparazzi saying, how do you


feel? I don't know, I don't know what is going gone. You must know,


no, I don't know. I'm going to call the police! Mum, no.


How intrusive has the press been in your life? Have they ever crossed a


line? Yes, definitely, many things, things that you feel quite


uncomfortable about it, they have gone way too far. The thing is, I am


kind of old school, I believe when you do this job, of course people to


a degree will want to know about you and your life but there should be a


point, you should have your rights as a person and your privacy when


you really need it. The small clan around me that I did have, I started


to doubt them because there were stories and quotes and everything, I


did say that, but the rest of it was wrong, and it was a bizarre,


horrible time. Brilliant pounds, and then... Is it true that you want


asked God to send you a sign as to whether you would carry on acting?


After My Fair Lady, I had really awful press and it went on and on


for months and months. I thought, I did not sign up for this, I just


want to entertain people. I went to see some friends in Spain and


thought, if you want me to be in this stinking business committee


need to be one hell of a sign. Just let me know! Forgot about it.


Amazing, isn't it?! Forgot about it! And literally within a day of being


in Spain I got a phone call from my agent saying, Richard Curtis wants


you to read for the lead in a film called Love Actually with Hugh


Grant. I was looking up to God thinking, you don't muck about, do


you?! Oh, hello. Hello. This is my mum and


my dad and my uncle and my aunt. Very nice to meet you. And this is


the Prime Minister. We can see that, darling. You are a bit of a


religious person? I do believe in God, I believe in something else out


there, I believe life is so much more than this. For someone who


works as hard as you, while Cooper a decade away, what was the point when


you thought, I need to go back into the studio? It was more, I need to


write something, I need to be creative. It was so cathartic for


me. # Stars around the consolation.


# Say I'm not alone. # I can't believe it...


It really is the full gamut of your emotions? Celebrity is a dirty word


in the world today, and you forget what people are doing with their


careers and their lives, you become a victim of your own name. Of course


you have got Celebrity Big Brother, I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here!


, you have been offered a few of these? Why have you always said no?


I wanted to stay away from that. I think Strictly is the closest you


could do but even then, because performing is what I do, can I stand


up in front of millions of people and be told I am a two? Martine


McCutcheon, thank you so much. Martine McCutcheon,


concentrating on singing rather Still to come on Sunday


Morning Live... Mehreen Baig acts as a pair of eyes


on a holiday for blind people. When you are travelling with a


visually impaired person, I guess a sighted person might become aware of


the other senses, because we are not focused on site, we can hear things,


small things. Oh, that is nice. That is nice.


Now what do you think of this picture?


It's a bunch of blokes who decided to dress up in drag as female nurses


But Shropshire Health Authority refused the ?2500 donation


to Ludlow Hospital because they said the stunt was highly sexualised,


insulting, and demeaning to the nursing profession.


The decision has left the fundraisers baffled.


I don't think any of us set out to cause any offence. You only have to


walk around the town to see the smiles on people's faces. I'm


flabbergasted, I can't believe anybody would send 2500 back.


Also this week, a recruitment campaign by police


in Edinburgh suffered a social media backlash.


It used a picture of three policewomen with the caption,


That was criticised for being condescending


The police say the image was designed to challenge


stereotypes and show there are opportunities for all.


So are people being too sensitive, or is there blatant sexism at work


Joining me now are James Delingpole, who is a journalist.


Andrea Trainer, who's a consultant on diversity for businesses.


James, what do you make of it? Judging by your face, I think you


are disgusted?! I think the hospital would have been quite grateful for


that ?2500. I'm not sure the chief executive who made the decision was


really thinking about the hospital. Most ordinary people I think would


disagree quite strongly with what he did. ?2500, the NHS is short of


cash, Poppy, are we being too sensitive here? I think that story


is quite a bizarre story, it is obviously a strange thing that has


gone on there. You can point out one story like that and say we are too


politically correct. A number of stories recently, a Labour MP


writing an article brandishing Pakistani men as being sexual


deviants, the president of the United States talking about touching


women inappropriately, the idea that we are all confined by political


correctness and nobody can move... We will deal with those broader


issues in a moment, let's get to the heart of the story. Samanthi, you


have got an interesting guest. With me now is Mark Hiles,


one of the fundraisers from Shropshire who dressed up


as a female nurse. Thank you for joining us. What do


you make of the response to your fundraising? It has gone absolutely


crazy. Just a regular bunch of guys from Ludlow, we dressed as nurses to


get as much awareness out there as we possibly could, the community had


great fun, we raised a lot of money to go to the hospital. Unfortunately


they said it was demeaning to the staff and sexualising the profession


and they don't want our money. Was it a mistake to dress as a female


nurse? You could have dressed as doctors? In the past, various


outings have done doctors, other things, it is just one of those


things where we have done it because it raises more awareness than people


stand out from the crowd more. If we were just in regular scrubs, I don't


think we would get that much attention. The more attention we


get, the better, everyone was taking pictures with us, asking questions


about the hospital that we were raising the money for, what was


happening with the hospital. It was just great fun. Do you see any


validity in the concerns that it sexualising and demeans the


profession for female nurses who perhaps face sexual harassment at


work? Absolutely not, no. There are lots of nurses out there who have


done this in the past, I have not come across anybody that had a


problem it. What has happened with the money? At present it is being


held, it will get spent on Ludlow hospital in some way, the details of


that and not with me but we are just raising the money, I guess. Sean,


what do you think? I will put that to Poppy, lovely guy raising money


for the local hospital? I suppose that is what I am saying, this is


one scenario, a very strange scenario, and it emphasises this


situation, raising money for the local hospital, I get it, but is it


a sign that we are somehow madly at politically correct society? You


don't have to look far to see how politically incorrect we are at any


level in the public sphere. Andrea, you are a consultant on diversity,


are you concerned when you see men dressing up as women like that? No,


no. We have to bring it to the language and actions, the intent.


The real issue is why a group of guys is having to push a trolley


around a community to raise money for vital equipment. The real issue


is why the Scottish police force is having to put a selfie on social


media to promote policewomen. Those are the real issues. People are


fearful of being labelled and those conversations are being shut down. I


can see both sides. The idea of political correctness, what we're


labelled, how we are discussed, how society views us, and each time we


change the language of political correctness, as it were, it pushes


society forward. 200 years ago I would have been a slave. 50 years


ago I would have been called coloured. Look at sexism, I would


have been my father's daughter, then my husband's wife, but now I can be


called Miss, it is the idea that the language we use pushes society


forward and reflects who we want to be and where we see ourselves. Mark,


you have heard the comments, would you do anything differently next


year? We would obviously be aware of people's feelings, I guess, if they


are that strong, but we are going to carry on doing the service every


year. Dressing up as nurses? Absolutely, yes, we will do exactly


the same next year, we are not harming anybody. We have great


respect for the nursing profession and everybody out there, we are just


having a bit of fun. You going to stop people dressing up in the


London Marathon to raise money? Do you feel you have a point to prove


here? Definitely, yes, we are going to carry on doing we are doing. We


should be able to dress how we want to dress. So we will be covering


this story next year! Thank you very much. My pleasure. Let's move on to


Edinburgh police force, three policewomen and a caption reading,


more than just pretty faces. Some said it was a throwback to the


1970s, haven't we moved on? The conversation shouldn't be about what


language, we come back to the intent. The picture was taken to


promote the force as a place for everyone. But it caused offence to


some people? Again, you have to come back to intent. The intent was a


valid and good one. There are issues of gender imbalance in the police


force, this was done with positive intent. Sophia, political


correctness helps to shift attitudes, you mention how you would


have been referred to 50, 100 years ago, but are we in danger of going


too far? A friend of mine would say someone was trying to describe me


the other day and was scared to say that I am mixed race or black, they


were talking about the colour of my eyes or the colour of my hair! The


obvious thing to describe me is mixed race or black. It is whether


we can self identify, the issue in Scotland, that is how they identify,


yes, it goes back to those Juliet Bravo policing issues that we


remember from the 70s, but the whole idea of a lot of people at the


moment said, am I mixed race? Look at the Obama daughters... White that


offensive? Look at what we have got at the moment with race, we have got


this whole idea that you have to have your nation and your race


side-by-side, you are black British, African-American, but if I use the


word Anglo-Saxon I know that James will convulse in shock!


I think we are hearing some elegant distractions from the issue. We are


talking about two specific stories that people are looking at. What


kind of world do we live in? Who are these offence Gestapo who go out


there looking to be offended by stuff? The person who wrote the


advert for Police Scotland was a woman. She wasn't aware that you


can't talk about pretty faces any more. I think she was in the


photograph herself. She was. There were three. Whatever. The women in


the photograph and the person who wrote the copy were on board with


the problem, and yet, other people on the Internet, which is a terrible


place for this kind of nonsense, there is a hard-core of licensed,


professional offence takers who go round seeking to make everyone else


feel uncomfortable, and they are taking the normality away from our


world. Samanthi, what have people said? Ryan said that people are


getting fed up because we see how phoney the idea of political


correctness is. Abdul says we have far right protest every month,


incredible levels of hate crime, so no, we haven't gone far enough with


political correctness. Peter says, far too much PC rubbish these days.


People want the right to be offended whether something might have been


said in jest or in humour. Chris says that teachers at school were


happy to throw insults at black kids, and if being PC stops this,


that is a good thing. What would you like to see going forward? It's


important to keep on having an open discussion. The point of political


correctness is not to stifle people, it's to be able to have a discussion


about important issues in society and to move forward. This discussion


isn't new. It was happening in the 90s when I was younger, and fully


grown women attacked me in the streets and shouted racist slurs at


me. It's important to remember that we are not in some kind of new age


where we are suddenly very politically correct. It is an


argument that comes up frequently to shut down progressive conversation.


Thank you all very much indeed. Talking about mental health was once


something of a taboo subject. But increasingly


people are opening up. A new book is contributing


to that change in mood. It's by Katharine Welby-Roberts,


the daughter of the Archbishop She's suffered from severe


depression and, despite her father's role as a church man,


was reluctant to confide Wendy Robbins has been


to meet Katharine, who, after marrying and having a baby,


is in a much better place. Katherine Welby-Roberts and her


husband Mike live in Reading with their baby son and dog. Katherine


has struggled with depression, anxiety and chronic fatigue syndrome


since adolescence. What were you like as a teenager? I was always


very shy when I met new people, and then I became my normal boisterous


self. I was the vicar's kid, and everyone knew it. That was when I


was a teenager. What did that mean? People would judge my behaviour and


report back here, or just judge me. Do you remember feeling sad when you


were growing up? The depression took old when I was 15 or so. A group of


friends that I had been very good friends with, one summer, I came


back to school and they did the analog version of an friending me.


Then I got a glandular fever. I was quite ill for some time. I had to


give up a couple of GCSEs. You throw into society's expectations of you,


always needing to be better. It was a kind of perfect recipe for


depression and anxiety. Katherine's mental health got worse over the


next few years, and at 22, she experienced suicidal thoughts. I've


always been able to logically observe, to a degree, what is


happening. I knew logically I didn't want to hurt myself, so I did as


much as I had the energy for to try and prevent that. The worst I got


was banging my head on the walls, and that's as bad as I got in terms


of action. Were your parents aware at this stage of what was going on?


I don't think I really communicated with them about it, or let them see


how bad it was. Do you think they understood the depths of what you


were going through all what mental health was? They were learning on


the job, in a way. It is your dad's job to look after the sick and the


vulnerable, so it is strange, looking back, that you didn't seek


help. A lot of people, as teenagers, don't necessarily talk to their


parents. I felt I wanted to protect them as well and not burden them,


and that is a very common theme with mental health problems, that you are


a burden to those you love. Today, Katherine faces a daily battle to


manage those illnesses, which impacts on her life with her


husband. He has to do a lot more than he probably would if I was


healthy. I'm always worried that he's going to leave me, that he's


going to fall out of love with me, that I've upset him. Last year,


Katherine and Mike became parents for the first time. Has been


responsible for another meant that you have been less inside your head?


I think it definitely has, because you just don't have the time, do


you? But it goes both ways. You could completely put off thinking


about how you are doing mentally, and become significantly more ill.


I've tried to try and get a balance between at least being aware of how


I'm feeling and how I'm doing. The one thing I want to try and avoid,


if at all possible, is having a breakdown. And being unable to get


through it. What role has your faith played in all this? To have the


knowledge that I am unconditionally loved by God, and that he is aware


of this, that he is engaged with me, that he is walking with me, that


Jesus died for me, that he sent the holy spirit to comfort me and


counsel me. All of that enables me to keep going. Why did you write the


book? Having written the blog and talked about my mental health,


people responded really well to you not saying, this is how to make


yourself better, but to say this is what has made me better. It's an


invitation to explore yourself rather than instructions on how to


pull yourself together. And just as a way to enable people and invite


people to explore what it means to accept themselves as themselves. Has


your dad read the book and what does he think? He likes it. That's my


favourite thing. Katharine Welby-Roberts -


and we wish her and her family well. The care home system


is teetering "on the edge", and funding shortages risks


"catastrophic failure" Those strong words from


the boss of one of the UK's With a growing elderly population,


the demand for care But is it fair for the NHS to bear


so much of the strain, or should families take more


of the burden? To help answer that question,


I'm now joined by Sonia Dave Clements, a writer and advisor


on social care policy. And re-joining us is


barrister Sophia Cannon. Sonia, we expect families to take


care of children. No one would ever doubt that. Why is it different when


it comes to older relatives? The first thing to say is that families


already do do a lot of caring. The latest study showed that family


members put in over 7 billion hours of caring for elderly relatives.


There's a lot that does go on. Lots are in care homes, but when you are


looking at people who have advanced dementia or very serious physical


impairment, these are not conditions that family members without


professional training can care for people round the clock. Some of


these people need round-the-clock care, and family members can't do


that. They cannot give up jobs altogether. What about those who


don't need round-the-clock care, who are just elderly and frail? With the


significant cuts in funding we are seeing, older people, even when they


have quite significant levels of care need, are not always getting


the support they need from the care system. AgeUK estimates that there


are over 1 million older people who don't get the help they need with


basic tasks like washing and dressing. It is a really sad state


of affairs. Family members need to do their bit, but it cannot all be


left to them. Sophia, you are working mum. Men and women have to


work to pay the mortgage. How realistic is it to expect families


to care for the elderly? We have a new situation in society, which has


just come on in the last few years or so. I call it the grampa Joe


scenario. We all remember watching Charlie and the chocolate factory,


where there are four grandparents all tucked up in that double bed.


Demographics is now suggesting that we are going to have one grandchild


for four grandparents. We with families and houses have to adapt.


If you have a teenage child in your house, in the next ten years or so,


that child will move out. Why not think about a family plan and


bringing back the grandparents into that household? Rebecca, the idea of


families doing more, isn't that just the state getting out of its duties?


Those people have paid lots of taxes. In my community it is the


norm that you bring granny into live with you. You respect elderly


relatives and see they have something to give. You say the


elderly as if it is a demographic that's a problem. It's a resource of


wonderful experience, and not least childcare, to be really pragmatic.


Myself and my friends use grandparents to do childcare,


because who better to look after your child than grandma? I do think


there's a difference between a grandparent who is really healthy


and doesn't have advanced care needs, who can help with the


childcare. But we do tend to fetishise some cultures where we


say, they tend to do more care within the family and that's great.


Japan didn't have a system of care homes before 2000, and they had huge


problems with abuse of older people in the home, because they had


younger people who were not able to care for people who needed


round-the-clock care. Family relationships were breaking down.


The state has to provide a minimum level of support. Samanthi, who are


you talking to? With me now is Dawinder Bansal,


who cares for her mother at home. Your mother is in her late 70s and


you are juggling caring for her with your job. How are you managing? I


transitioned from being a young carer to an adult carer, so I have


been caring for her for a number of years along with my sister and some


siblings. One of the most difficult things is juggling, because even


though I do work and I have a senior position, it is about holding down a


senior position with a company, about well-being, but about having a


full social life as well. There are challenges around being able to live


a life whereby you are living a bit more of your own life and having to


think about somebody else. Have you ever considered looking for a home


to care for your mum? I would never ever consider putting my mother into


a home, unless, like one of your guests has said, about advanced care


needs. I'm second-generation Asian, and for me, that pioneering


generation sacrificed so much, and I've seen how my parents sacrificed


so much for me to have the life I've got, so it's not something I would


ever consider. A lot of people my age who are also second generation


would agree with me on that, I think. The philosophy of growing up


and see our parents care for their parents is now ingrained within me,


and with people who have seen the same thing. It's very much a case of


families who have the capability and have that family structure whereby


they can take more responsibility for looking after their elders, they


should do that. I don't personally think it should be, just because


you've paid into the tax system, you are going to get the care you need.


I think it's a very complex and multilayered situation. Everybody's


situation is different. You might have family members, elder people in


the community, who don't have that structure around them, and they do


need that support. But wherever there is a family structure to


support an older person, regardless of your culture and background, I


think 100% effort should be made by those families to look after their


elders. Thank you. An interesting account there.


So Dawinder feels it is her duty to look after that generation because


they were the pioneers who came here, is it a poor reflection on our


society that many other cultures do not feel that? When I think about my


parents, I think I feel similarly to Dawinder, but not all adults, not


all older adults will have that family they can rely on. They feel


very isolated and lonely, there are also increasing numbers of older


people who will not have children, they will not have that family


structure, that is a really big social issue. The state needs to


provide a basic safety net. Families absolutely have to do their bit but


because of modern living some people are not able to have children, some


people's children might live on the other side of the world, for


example. Society is judged by how older people are looked after and I


don't think it is just children but community, it is neighbours... I


absolutely agree. When people cannot rely on that, they rely on social


care. You have worked on ideas to improve social care. If we funded


care homes better would the system be better? No. There is a funding


crisis in social care, care workers should be paid the national living


wage or more, but for me it is more about the crisis of care in which we


hear of people being neglectful in care homes, conditions in care homes


being poured... Is that not just money? Know, some of these things,


sometimes it is peeling wallpaper, basic things. How can we change


that? At the moment we have an audit culture, a focus on targets, meeting


objectives external to care homes. That is not a helpful way to


proceed. We need to involve the people who work in the care homes


more in the decision-making, and the people who live there. I completely


agree because if we look at the care home system, the philosophy that


runs through it is, these are older people who are at the start of a


physical and mental decline and our job is to manage that process, it is


about how can we keep these people say for as long as possible? It is


not about, how can we help them lead a flourishing and fulfilling life,


and I feel in our culture we basically right older people off


when they started to decline, just make sure they are physically safe


until they fade away. I think there is a myth that older people are a


burden on families. That is not the case. Around 3% of 65 plus older


people use care homes. The majority of people have care in the home will


stop I think we need to get beyond the notion that old people are


blocking beds, etc, it is not helpful. Let's find out what people


are saying at home. Some agreement with the panel, Susie is a fan of


caring for a relative unless they have dementia, which can be tiring


and frightening. We live in a meet society and it is time to go back to


caring for our families. Catherine says there should be more


emphasis on family ties and duties rather than just stuffing them in a


home if they are a burden, unheard of in other parts of the world.


Another says, if you love a person, you care for them, age does not


matter. Natalie raises a question which


comes up in these debates, she says, I feel increasing the that there is


a moral question of people who do not care for older people when they


are young, yet expect people will care for them when they reach that


age. We need to change the mindset, do we


not? When you bring up children you put time and energy into it, you get


pleasure from seeing them walk and talk, should we not be seeing it in


the same way with elderly people? We help a mother and father looked


after a baby because we can see how vulnerable it is. The issue with


older people is they are very vulnerable as well but we often


don't see the charm that babies have, so you don't want to help and


go round. When a new baby is born everybody goes round with food but


with an older person, not many people are knocking on doors in the


same way. Let's bring Dawinder back in. Children have a lot more charm


than elderly people, do you ask yourself that question every date?!


I look at it as an honour to look after my parents, actually, because


they have cared for me to be who I am today so why should I not give


that back to them? But I think there is this thing when you are looking


after children, you always know that they will transition out of that,


whereas with older people you know that it is going to be a decline,


they will get progressively more difficult, so I think that is the


difference. But the other things to add in here is about the


understanding we have from our employers, and I was very lucky and


fortunate to have managers who have always understood my personal


situation and have given me the time off when I have needed it, they have


been very understanding and I think while we are looking at care homes


and talking about money being pumped in there, I think it needs to be...


I'm afraid we are running out of time, Dawinder, but thank you very


much for joining us, and thank you to the panel as well.


Now, over the long Bank Holiday weekend many people will be taking


And Mehreen Baig is off on a seaside trip for us, too.


But it's not for relaxation - she's taking on a new job.


Sightseeing is one of the most enjoyable things on any holiday but


today I'm on the Isle of Wight with a group of travellers with a


difference. Half of them are blind. The tour is led by this man who


became blind at 18 as a result of a genetic condition and quickly


realised that holidays had become more difficult. Every time I tried


to travel, travel company said, you are blind, you cannot travel with


us, and I realised that if you want something in this world that does


not exist, you either do without all build it yourself. So he came up


with the idea of a tour company for blind people called Travel Eyes,


which matches visually impaired travellers with sighted travellers


and today he is going to show me how it works. So I would take your arm


officially the person takes the back of the elbow, a few steps behind


you, so if you were to disappear off the edge of the cliff then I would


know to stop! Crucially, I have to describe what I see. Down the


right-hand side there is an endless of water. Silvery blue water. We had


to the Needles, one of the Isle of Wight's most popular attractions.


Maybe you can take my hand and brought them out as well? OK, so...


Said this is the first one, and the second one, which looks like the


longest one, then there is a stack of water, then the one closest to


us. Today is all about senses other than site. Look what I got you! Oh,


that is nice. When you are travelling with the


visually impaired person, as a sighted person you might become more


aware of the other senses because we are not focused on sight, we get a


chance to touch things come, taste things. And we don't do that enough,


I guess? I have learned a lot so far but I want to know how the


experience has been for the rest of the group. To be able to come here


by myself and have the independence to explore different places, to be


able to sit and laugh with everyone else, I know that there are so many


women and girls who will never get that opportunity. As the day goes on


I feel I am getting the hang of this. I am old enough to take him


down 180 steps to the beach. All in front of us now is the water. Is


that pebbles I can hear? It is, it is all pebbles. Then a close-up view


of the island's famous coloured sand rocks.


It is literally flat, like someone just touched it.


It is a popular souvenir, too. What have we got here? A bottle in the


shape of the guitar and I filled it up at Beesands shop here in the bay.


Why did you choose a bottle in the shape of the guitar? It is such an


interesting shape and you can feel the strings as well. Can you? Oh, my


goodness, you can! I have wanted to come to the Needles and do the


coloured sand for years, it was on my to do list before I died. How


lovely! We are firm travel buddies now and


the friendship is about to be tested.


And now we step onto the boat. OK. You might need to save me! I have


got you. Cheese! This trip has been a learning curve for me. In a


sighted Society you don't get to appreciate all the things about you


but these people are taking their time to describe all of the little


details and it teaches you to live in the moment and appreciate where


you are, surrounded by beautiful things.


That's nearly all from us for this week.


But why don't you join Samanthi for live chat online after the show?


Yes, I'll be talking to barrister Sophia Cannon


Log on to facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive


In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole


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