Episode 11 Sunday Morning Live

Another food scare - after eggs, it's suspect sausages.

Should we care more about where our food comes from?

A health authority turns down a ?2500 donation

because it was raised by men dressing up as female nurses.

Are we becoming too politically correct?

The Archbishop of Canterbury's daughter, Katharine Welby-Roberts,

talks about her battle with depression and why she didn't

seek her parents' help with her mental health problems.

I think I felt I needed to protect them from it as well, and not

burdened them, and that is a very common theme with mental health

problems, that you are a burden to those you love.

And actress and singer Martine McCutcheon tells us how

she nearly gave up showbusiness until she received an unexpected

I got a call from my agent saying, Martine, I know you told us not to

call you ever again, but we got a phone call from Richard Curtis who

wants you to read for a film with Hugh Grant. And I literally dropped

the phone. All that coming up -

and here with us today to sample your views

is Samanthi Flanagan. We'll also be looking at how we care

for our elderly. There's a warning that the care home

system is facing a catastrophe. So should families play a bigger

part in looking after relatives? We want you to get in touch

on all our discussions. You can contact us by

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in the programme. First, just a fortnight after egg

products from four supermarkets were found to contain

an insecticide, now it's reported that pork products may have infected

people with hepatitis E. That's a virus that can

cause liver damage. The pork was not from

the UK, but imported. Nevertheless, these

latest scares have raised Should we care more

about where our food comes from? Joining me now to discuss

that are Matt Rymer, a cattle farmer and founder

of an organization set up to improve Dr Megan Blake, a senior lecturer

in Human Geological Studies. Emma Slawinski from

Compassion In World Farming. And Sally Bee, a healthy

eating campaigner. Mats, you are a farmer. How

concerned should we be about where our food comes from? I think the

consumer should ask more questions. The consumer can expect food to

become cheaper, but in a way, with food, less is more, and the consumer

needs to ask the questions to drive the change. White, though? Isn't

cheap food good? If you look at the food industry, provenance should

really begin on the farm at seed or birth, and follow through the chain

so that the consumer is empowered to know where those ingredients are

from. It's important because it's a global food industry. Millenials

particularly, the generation now, they want and care about how food is

reared and grown and the environmental impact, but they need

to ask those questions. Megan, you get what you pay for. If consumers

want to pay for cheap food, they get cheap food. Should we be thinking

more carefully about what we buy and what we eat? There were 3000 last

year in this country who died from food paralysis. There are over 1

million people in this country now who are going hungry, going to food

banks. So while I am very sympathetic to the idea of

provenance, I think it is a really middle-class problem. The bigger

issue is around things to do with diet and the fact that we have

people who are hungry. So if I am poor, it doesn't really matter if I

get hepatitis E through sausages because I'm getting food? Putting it

into perspective, the chances of getting hepatitis E from sausages

are very small, compared to, say, getting a diet related illness. That

is a different issue. Shouldn't we be thinking about the contribution

of cheap meat to those illnesses? If you are raising an animal in a very

intensive system and you are using an antibiotic to keep that animal

healthy, preventative antibiotics, those are the same antibiotics we

used to treat human health. On that point, I would disagree with you

that Providence should be a preoccupation exclusive to the

middle-class. Should be entitled to know where their food comes from. I

agree, but for the people I work with, that is so low on their list

of issues. They are concerned about whether or not they are going to be

able to feed their kids, whether they can do that in the time they

have, in the context of where they live. But to be able to know the

journey of your food, how it's been produced, is very relevant to your

health, especially with these health scares. Well, it's 3000 people. We

have traceability. It is about worrying about the guy who is

driving along text Inc. Its things you can't control. There have been

to food scares within a fortnight. It's important to put things into

perspective. We now have rolling 24 hour news, which needs to be filled

with something. 20 years ago, we went to watch the News at Ten, and

if there was a story on the headlines we would take notice of

it. Now there are constant news stories, on our phones, for example.

It is a complete balanced story. I'm from the position of health. I'm

about healthy eating, having as much transparency as possible, but also

making sure you can feed your kids. My advice to anybody is follow your

instincts and do the best you can. If you can afford to buy food that

you know exactly where it's come from, that is locally sourced, that

you know is doing your body and your children good, fantastic. If you

can't, you just have to do the best you can. I don't believe you have to

spend a lot of money to know where your food is coming from. Let's go

to Samanthi. Who have you got? With me now is Tracy Worcester,

a campaigner for better animal welfare in farming,

who's currently making a series of films with chefs who only use

meat from farms with high Thank you for joining us. We have

been hearing that it's unrealistic for poorer families to afford higher

welfare meat. How realistic and option is it? I spend a lot of time

asking people, would you look for higher welfare labels on your pork.

They say, yes, they would, but it's more expensive, and what difference

does it make if they do it on their own. I have been making a series of

films, starting with Pig Business, which has been shown around the

world. Then when I came to England, I was trying to stop local -- help

local people stop a pig farm, and they are very, very angry that this

pig farm is being proposed near them where it is well-known that the

people who live near these farms are getting antibiotic resistant

diseases, diseases which are spread further than the locality. You are

spreading the faeces of these factory farms on the films. We

cannot speak about this case because we don't know much about it. But

there's been so much controversy about different meat scares and some

people give up meat altogether. Is that a viable option? It is if you

are terrified about what you eat. You have a terribly powerful purse

which can say that you will pay the farmer a fair price and then you

look for the high welfare labels, like outdoor bred, free range and

organic. Many of us are eating too much meat. To reduce our meat intake

would avoid diseases like obesity, diabetes, heart disease and some

forms of cancer. That way you can spread your money and enjoy more

vegetables. But the production of vegetables also causes... We use

insecticides and chemical fertilisers, which people are

worried about as well. So a vegetable diet is not the answer

necessarily. You don't necessarily have to just eat vegetables. It's

just to reduce your meat intake to help spread the cost. If you look

for the better welfare labels, it is fractionally more expensive, but on

average, it's too sausages from a factory farm where the pigs are

being treated diabolically, treated with antibiotics just to keep them

alive, or it is one and a half sausages from a high welfare farm.

Thank you. A lot of interesting comments. Do we need to our

mentality? We need to eat less meat and eat better meet? I tried to eat

the food that you are talking about, but I can afford that. But we make

it cheaper. That's the point. We are sitting at home. Who is it that's

going out and doing this? In the community in Doncaster it's the

women who are trying to take home all these messages. There's a woman

I spoke to who goes round every day round all the shops to get the deals

so that she can feed her family. She cooks five meals a day, partly

because she picks up the grandkids after school and feeds them, and

then his son -- her son comes home and feeds them. The food that she is

making is better than takeaway food. We need to get away from the idea

that cheap meat is cheap. It's not cheap. It is cheap at the till, but

that is only one of the times you pay for it. You pay for it again in

your taxes through farm subsidies, and you pay for it again because

cheap meat causes things like antibiotic resistance, contributes

to some dietary diseases. So cheap meat is actually more expensive? For

us as a society, yes. The cost has to be paid for somehow, and people

are paying for that. Day to day, people don't think like that. I

think they do. They tried to do the best they can. Parents with kids who

are working all day, they come home and they have to feed the kids

something they can afford, know how to make and that the children will

eat. That is the day-to-day living with it. Matt, you are a farmer. It

is your business, but you say we should eat less meat? I try to eat

and drink only food that I know where the ingredients are from. You

end up eating less processed food. It is a better diet. You look

forward to your meals more. It's almost going back to the

old-fashioned... Not everybody can afford that. You see people at the

garage queueing up and buying processed sandwiches, pasties and

sugary drinks. Lets see what people are saying at home and on social

media. Johnny says that people want their mates to have as good a life

as possible, but sometimes the cost and the morals do not add up. Peggy

says she doesn't understand why some people don't care about where food

comes from. It's your body and your life. Eating bad food is like

filling up your car with water and wondering why it won't start. Rob

says as long as the food tastes good, it doesn't matter where it

comes from. What should people do if they are watching this and are

worried about this? They should go to trusted sources to buy their food

and think about what they are doing, but within the context of their

lives. Money is important. Thank you very much indeed.

Martine McCutcheon rose to fame at the age of 18

But her character in the BBC soap met a dramatic end

and she was written out of the series.

Martine went on to forge a career as a singer before returning

to acting big time in the film Love Actually.

Now, after battling her way through illness, she is back

Hello. Hallo! I'm going to ask you not to make a huge leap of

imagination, but just imagine I am the 18-year-old Martine McCutcheon.

Knowing what you know now, what would you say to her?

Take what is said with a pinch of salt, believe yourself, and trust

your instinct, and laugh along the way. The reason you would say that

now is because you were not laughing it off? They criticise you when you

were trying to find out who you are and you are so young, it is

important to have good self-esteem and believe in yourself a genuinely

believe in yourself. Something I would have loved to have done would

be preserved myself. So when you came into East Enders and became

this huge character, four years, is it strange to look back at say it

was only four years? It felt like ten years but it was not, four

years, that was it. Hello, Tiffany. What are you doing here? Nice

surprise, is it? You shouldn't be here, you are not supposed to be

anywhere near Courteney. It was unfortunately a sad demise and when

you were not comfortable with, not how you wanted to leave Eastenders?

No, there is a lot of press saying I am still upset to this day about it,

of course I am not, it is just the way it was done, I heard it on the

radio driving along, Tiffany is being killed off and I thought, they

must be wrong, and I turned up and thereby paparazzi saying, how do you

feel? I don't know, I don't know what is going gone. You must know,

no, I don't know. I'm going to call the police! Mum, no.

How intrusive has the press been in your life? Have they ever crossed a

line? Yes, definitely, many things, things that you feel quite

uncomfortable about it, they have gone way too far. The thing is, I am

kind of old school, I believe when you do this job, of course people to

a degree will want to know about you and your life but there should be a

point, you should have your rights as a person and your privacy when

you really need it. The small clan around me that I did have, I started

to doubt them because there were stories and quotes and everything, I

did say that, but the rest of it was wrong, and it was a bizarre,

horrible time. Brilliant pounds, and then... Is it true that you want

asked God to send you a sign as to whether you would carry on acting?

After My Fair Lady, I had really awful press and it went on and on

for months and months. I thought, I did not sign up for this, I just

want to entertain people. I went to see some friends in Spain and

thought, if you want me to be in this stinking business committee

need to be one hell of a sign. Just let me know! Forgot about it.

Amazing, isn't it?! Forgot about it! And literally within a day of being

in Spain I got a phone call from my agent saying, Richard Curtis wants

you to read for the lead in a film called Love Actually with Hugh

Grant. I was looking up to God thinking, you don't muck about, do

you?! Oh, hello. Hello. This is my mum and

my dad and my uncle and my aunt. Very nice to meet you. And this is

the Prime Minister. We can see that, darling. You are a bit of a

religious person? I do believe in God, I believe in something else out

there, I believe life is so much more than this. For someone who

works as hard as you, while Cooper a decade away, what was the point when

you thought, I need to go back into the studio? It was more, I need to

write something, I need to be creative. It was so cathartic for

me. # Stars around the consolation.

# Say I'm not alone. # I can't believe it...

It really is the full gamut of your emotions? Celebrity is a dirty word

in the world today, and you forget what people are doing with their

careers and their lives, you become a victim of your own name. Of course

you have got Celebrity Big Brother, I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here!

, you have been offered a few of these? Why have you always said no?

I wanted to stay away from that. I think Strictly is the closest you

could do but even then, because performing is what I do, can I stand

up in front of millions of people and be told I am a two? Martine

McCutcheon, thank you so much. Martine McCutcheon,

concentrating on singing rather Still to come on Sunday

Morning Live... Mehreen Baig acts as a pair of eyes

on a holiday for blind people. When you are travelling with a

visually impaired person, I guess a sighted person might become aware of

the other senses, because we are not focused on site, we can hear things,

small things. Oh, that is nice. That is nice.

Now what do you think of this picture?

It's a bunch of blokes who decided to dress up in drag as female nurses

But Shropshire Health Authority refused the ?2500 donation

to Ludlow Hospital because they said the stunt was highly sexualised,

insulting, and demeaning to the nursing profession.

The decision has left the fundraisers baffled.

I don't think any of us set out to cause any offence. You only have to

walk around the town to see the smiles on people's faces. I'm

flabbergasted, I can't believe anybody would send 2500 back.

Also this week, a recruitment campaign by police

in Edinburgh suffered a social media backlash.

It used a picture of three policewomen with the caption,

That was criticised for being condescending

The police say the image was designed to challenge

stereotypes and show there are opportunities for all.

So are people being too sensitive, or is there blatant sexism at work

Joining me now are James Delingpole, who is a journalist.

Andrea Trainer, who's a consultant on diversity for businesses.

James, what do you make of it? Judging by your face, I think you

are disgusted?! I think the hospital would have been quite grateful for

that ?2500. I'm not sure the chief executive who made the decision was

really thinking about the hospital. Most ordinary people I think would

disagree quite strongly with what he did. ?2500, the NHS is short of

cash, Poppy, are we being too sensitive here? I think that story

is quite a bizarre story, it is obviously a strange thing that has

gone on there. You can point out one story like that and say we are too

politically correct. A number of stories recently, a Labour MP

writing an article brandishing Pakistani men as being sexual

deviants, the president of the United States talking about touching

women inappropriately, the idea that we are all confined by political

correctness and nobody can move... We will deal with those broader

issues in a moment, let's get to the heart of the story. Samanthi, you

have got an interesting guest. With me now is Mark Hiles,

one of the fundraisers from Shropshire who dressed up

as a female nurse. Thank you for joining us. What do

you make of the response to your fundraising? It has gone absolutely

crazy. Just a regular bunch of guys from Ludlow, we dressed as nurses to

get as much awareness out there as we possibly could, the community had

great fun, we raised a lot of money to go to the hospital. Unfortunately

they said it was demeaning to the staff and sexualising the profession

and they don't want our money. Was it a mistake to dress as a female

nurse? You could have dressed as doctors? In the past, various

outings have done doctors, other things, it is just one of those

things where we have done it because it raises more awareness than people

stand out from the crowd more. If we were just in regular scrubs, I don't

think we would get that much attention. The more attention we

get, the better, everyone was taking pictures with us, asking questions

about the hospital that we were raising the money for, what was

happening with the hospital. It was just great fun. Do you see any

validity in the concerns that it sexualising and demeans the

profession for female nurses who perhaps face sexual harassment at

work? Absolutely not, no. There are lots of nurses out there who have

done this in the past, I have not come across anybody that had a

problem it. What has happened with the money? At present it is being

held, it will get spent on Ludlow hospital in some way, the details of

that and not with me but we are just raising the money, I guess. Sean,

what do you think? I will put that to Poppy, lovely guy raising money

for the local hospital? I suppose that is what I am saying, this is

one scenario, a very strange scenario, and it emphasises this

situation, raising money for the local hospital, I get it, but is it

a sign that we are somehow madly at politically correct society? You

don't have to look far to see how politically incorrect we are at any

level in the public sphere. Andrea, you are a consultant on diversity,

are you concerned when you see men dressing up as women like that? No,

no. We have to bring it to the language and actions, the intent.

The real issue is why a group of guys is having to push a trolley

around a community to raise money for vital equipment. The real issue

is why the Scottish police force is having to put a selfie on social

media to promote policewomen. Those are the real issues. People are

fearful of being labelled and those conversations are being shut down. I

can see both sides. The idea of political correctness, what we're

labelled, how we are discussed, how society views us, and each time we

change the language of political correctness, as it were, it pushes

society forward. 200 years ago I would have been a slave. 50 years

ago I would have been called coloured. Look at sexism, I would

have been my father's daughter, then my husband's wife, but now I can be

called Miss, it is the idea that the language we use pushes society

forward and reflects who we want to be and where we see ourselves. Mark,

you have heard the comments, would you do anything differently next

year? We would obviously be aware of people's feelings, I guess, if they

are that strong, but we are going to carry on doing the service every

year. Dressing up as nurses? Absolutely, yes, we will do exactly

the same next year, we are not harming anybody. We have great

respect for the nursing profession and everybody out there, we are just

having a bit of fun. You going to stop people dressing up in the

London Marathon to raise money? Do you feel you have a point to prove

here? Definitely, yes, we are going to carry on doing we are doing. We

should be able to dress how we want to dress. So we will be covering

this story next year! Thank you very much. My pleasure. Let's move on to

Edinburgh police force, three policewomen and a caption reading,

more than just pretty faces. Some said it was a throwback to the

1970s, haven't we moved on? The conversation shouldn't be about what

language, we come back to the intent. The picture was taken to

promote the force as a place for everyone. But it caused offence to

some people? Again, you have to come back to intent. The intent was a

valid and good one. There are issues of gender imbalance in the police

force, this was done with positive intent. Sophia, political

correctness helps to shift attitudes, you mention how you would

have been referred to 50, 100 years ago, but are we in danger of going

too far? A friend of mine would say someone was trying to describe me

the other day and was scared to say that I am mixed race or black, they

were talking about the colour of my eyes or the colour of my hair! The

obvious thing to describe me is mixed race or black. It is whether

we can self identify, the issue in Scotland, that is how they identify,

yes, it goes back to those Juliet Bravo policing issues that we

remember from the 70s, but the whole idea of a lot of people at the

moment said, am I mixed race? Look at the Obama daughters... White that

offensive? Look at what we have got at the moment with race, we have got

this whole idea that you have to have your nation and your race

side-by-side, you are black British, African-American, but if I use the

word Anglo-Saxon I know that James will convulse in shock!

I think we are hearing some elegant distractions from the issue. We are

talking about two specific stories that people are looking at. What

kind of world do we live in? Who are these offence Gestapo who go out

there looking to be offended by stuff? The person who wrote the

advert for Police Scotland was a woman. She wasn't aware that you

can't talk about pretty faces any more. I think she was in the

photograph herself. She was. There were three. Whatever. The women in

the photograph and the person who wrote the copy were on board with

the problem, and yet, other people on the Internet, which is a terrible

place for this kind of nonsense, there is a hard-core of licensed,

professional offence takers who go round seeking to make everyone else

feel uncomfortable, and they are taking the normality away from our

world. Samanthi, what have people said? Ryan said that people are

getting fed up because we see how phoney the idea of political

correctness is. Abdul says we have far right protest every month,

incredible levels of hate crime, so no, we haven't gone far enough with

political correctness. Peter says, far too much PC rubbish these days.

People want the right to be offended whether something might have been

said in jest or in humour. Chris says that teachers at school were

happy to throw insults at black kids, and if being PC stops this,

that is a good thing. What would you like to see going forward? It's

important to keep on having an open discussion. The point of political

correctness is not to stifle people, it's to be able to have a discussion

about important issues in society and to move forward. This discussion

isn't new. It was happening in the 90s when I was younger, and fully

grown women attacked me in the streets and shouted racist slurs at

me. It's important to remember that we are not in some kind of new age

where we are suddenly very politically correct. It is an

argument that comes up frequently to shut down progressive conversation.

Thank you all very much indeed. Talking about mental health was once

something of a taboo subject. But increasingly

people are opening up. A new book is contributing

to that change in mood. It's by Katharine Welby-Roberts,

the daughter of the Archbishop She's suffered from severe

depression and, despite her father's role as a church man,

was reluctant to confide Wendy Robbins has been

to meet Katharine, who, after marrying and having a baby,

is in a much better place. Katherine Welby-Roberts and her

husband Mike live in Reading with their baby son and dog. Katherine

has struggled with depression, anxiety and chronic fatigue syndrome

since adolescence. What were you like as a teenager? I was always

very shy when I met new people, and then I became my normal boisterous

self. I was the vicar's kid, and everyone knew it. That was when I

was a teenager. What did that mean? People would judge my behaviour and

report back here, or just judge me. Do you remember feeling sad when you

were growing up? The depression took old when I was 15 or so. A group of

friends that I had been very good friends with, one summer, I came

back to school and they did the analog version of an friending me.

Then I got a glandular fever. I was quite ill for some time. I had to

give up a couple of GCSEs. You throw into society's expectations of you,

always needing to be better. It was a kind of perfect recipe for

depression and anxiety. Katherine's mental health got worse over the

next few years, and at 22, she experienced suicidal thoughts. I've

always been able to logically observe, to a degree, what is

happening. I knew logically I didn't want to hurt myself, so I did as

much as I had the energy for to try and prevent that. The worst I got

was banging my head on the walls, and that's as bad as I got in terms

of action. Were your parents aware at this stage of what was going on?

I don't think I really communicated with them about it, or let them see

how bad it was. Do you think they understood the depths of what you

were going through all what mental health was? They were learning on

the job, in a way. It is your dad's job to look after the sick and the

vulnerable, so it is strange, looking back, that you didn't seek

help. A lot of people, as teenagers, don't necessarily talk to their

parents. I felt I wanted to protect them as well and not burden them,

and that is a very common theme with mental health problems, that you are

a burden to those you love. Today, Katherine faces a daily battle to

manage those illnesses, which impacts on her life with her

husband. He has to do a lot more than he probably would if I was

healthy. I'm always worried that he's going to leave me, that he's

going to fall out of love with me, that I've upset him. Last year,

Katherine and Mike became parents for the first time. Has been

responsible for another meant that you have been less inside your head?

I think it definitely has, because you just don't have the time, do

you? But it goes both ways. You could completely put off thinking

about how you are doing mentally, and become significantly more ill.

I've tried to try and get a balance between at least being aware of how

I'm feeling and how I'm doing. The one thing I want to try and avoid,

if at all possible, is having a breakdown. And being unable to get

through it. What role has your faith played in all this? To have the

knowledge that I am unconditionally loved by God, and that he is aware

of this, that he is engaged with me, that he is walking with me, that

Jesus died for me, that he sent the holy spirit to comfort me and

counsel me. All of that enables me to keep going. Why did you write the

book? Having written the blog and talked about my mental health,

people responded really well to you not saying, this is how to make

yourself better, but to say this is what has made me better. It's an

invitation to explore yourself rather than instructions on how to

pull yourself together. And just as a way to enable people and invite

people to explore what it means to accept themselves as themselves. Has

your dad read the book and what does he think? He likes it. That's my

favourite thing. Katharine Welby-Roberts -

and we wish her and her family well. The care home system

is teetering "on the edge", and funding shortages risks

"catastrophic failure" Those strong words from

the boss of one of the UK's With a growing elderly population,

the demand for care But is it fair for the NHS to bear

so much of the strain, or should families take more

of the burden? To help answer that question,

I'm now joined by Sonia Dave Clements, a writer and advisor

on social care policy. And re-joining us is

barrister Sophia Cannon. Sonia, we expect families to take

care of children. No one would ever doubt that. Why is it different when

it comes to older relatives? The first thing to say is that families

already do do a lot of caring. The latest study showed that family

members put in over 7 billion hours of caring for elderly relatives.

There's a lot that does go on. Lots are in care homes, but when you are

looking at people who have advanced dementia or very serious physical

impairment, these are not conditions that family members without

professional training can care for people round the clock. Some of

these people need round-the-clock care, and family members can't do

that. They cannot give up jobs altogether. What about those who

don't need round-the-clock care, who are just elderly and frail? With the

significant cuts in funding we are seeing, older people, even when they

have quite significant levels of care need, are not always getting

the support they need from the care system. AgeUK estimates that there

are over 1 million older people who don't get the help they need with

basic tasks like washing and dressing. It is a really sad state

of affairs. Family members need to do their bit, but it cannot all be

left to them. Sophia, you are working mum. Men and women have to

work to pay the mortgage. How realistic is it to expect families

to care for the elderly? We have a new situation in society, which has

just come on in the last few years or so. I call it the grampa Joe

scenario. We all remember watching Charlie and the chocolate factory,

where there are four grandparents all tucked up in that double bed.

Demographics is now suggesting that we are going to have one grandchild

for four grandparents. We with families and houses have to adapt.

If you have a teenage child in your house, in the next ten years or so,

that child will move out. Why not think about a family plan and

bringing back the grandparents into that household? Rebecca, the idea of

families doing more, isn't that just the state getting out of its duties?

Those people have paid lots of taxes. In my community it is the

norm that you bring granny into live with you. You respect elderly

relatives and see they have something to give. You say the

elderly as if it is a demographic that's a problem. It's a resource of

wonderful experience, and not least childcare, to be really pragmatic.

Myself and my friends use grandparents to do childcare,

because who better to look after your child than grandma? I do think

there's a difference between a grandparent who is really healthy

and doesn't have advanced care needs, who can help with the

childcare. But we do tend to fetishise some cultures where we

say, they tend to do more care within the family and that's great.

Japan didn't have a system of care homes before 2000, and they had huge

problems with abuse of older people in the home, because they had

younger people who were not able to care for people who needed

round-the-clock care. Family relationships were breaking down.

The state has to provide a minimum level of support. Samanthi, who are

you talking to? With me now is Dawinder Bansal,

who cares for her mother at home. Your mother is in her late 70s and

you are juggling caring for her with your job. How are you managing? I

transitioned from being a young carer to an adult carer, so I have

been caring for her for a number of years along with my sister and some

siblings. One of the most difficult things is juggling, because even

though I do work and I have a senior position, it is about holding down a

senior position with a company, about well-being, but about having a

full social life as well. There are challenges around being able to live

a life whereby you are living a bit more of your own life and having to

think about somebody else. Have you ever considered looking for a home

to care for your mum? I would never ever consider putting my mother into

a home, unless, like one of your guests has said, about advanced care

needs. I'm second-generation Asian, and for me, that pioneering

generation sacrificed so much, and I've seen how my parents sacrificed

so much for me to have the life I've got, so it's not something I would

ever consider. A lot of people my age who are also second generation

would agree with me on that, I think. The philosophy of growing up

and see our parents care for their parents is now ingrained within me,

and with people who have seen the same thing. It's very much a case of

families who have the capability and have that family structure whereby

they can take more responsibility for looking after their elders, they

should do that. I don't personally think it should be, just because

you've paid into the tax system, you are going to get the care you need.

I think it's a very complex and multilayered situation. Everybody's

situation is different. You might have family members, elder people in

the community, who don't have that structure around them, and they do

need that support. But wherever there is a family structure to

support an older person, regardless of your culture and background, I

think 100% effort should be made by those families to look after their

elders. Thank you. An interesting account there.

So Dawinder feels it is her duty to look after that generation because

they were the pioneers who came here, is it a poor reflection on our

society that many other cultures do not feel that? When I think about my

parents, I think I feel similarly to Dawinder, but not all adults, not

all older adults will have that family they can rely on. They feel

very isolated and lonely, there are also increasing numbers of older

people who will not have children, they will not have that family

structure, that is a really big social issue. The state needs to

provide a basic safety net. Families absolutely have to do their bit but

because of modern living some people are not able to have children, some

people's children might live on the other side of the world, for

example. Society is judged by how older people are looked after and I

don't think it is just children but community, it is neighbours... I

absolutely agree. When people cannot rely on that, they rely on social

care. You have worked on ideas to improve social care. If we funded

care homes better would the system be better? No. There is a funding

crisis in social care, care workers should be paid the national living

wage or more, but for me it is more about the crisis of care in which we

hear of people being neglectful in care homes, conditions in care homes

being poured... Is that not just money? Know, some of these things,

sometimes it is peeling wallpaper, basic things. How can we change

that? At the moment we have an audit culture, a focus on targets, meeting

objectives external to care homes. That is not a helpful way to

proceed. We need to involve the people who work in the care homes

more in the decision-making, and the people who live there. I completely

agree because if we look at the care home system, the philosophy that

runs through it is, these are older people who are at the start of a

physical and mental decline and our job is to manage that process, it is

about how can we keep these people say for as long as possible? It is

not about, how can we help them lead a flourishing and fulfilling life,

and I feel in our culture we basically right older people off

when they started to decline, just make sure they are physically safe

until they fade away. I think there is a myth that older people are a

burden on families. That is not the case. Around 3% of 65 plus older

people use care homes. The majority of people have care in the home will

stop I think we need to get beyond the notion that old people are

blocking beds, etc, it is not helpful. Let's find out what people

are saying at home. Some agreement with the panel, Susie is a fan of

caring for a relative unless they have dementia, which can be tiring

and frightening. We live in a meet society and it is time to go back to

caring for our families. Catherine says there should be more

emphasis on family ties and duties rather than just stuffing them in a

home if they are a burden, unheard of in other parts of the world.

Another says, if you love a person, you care for them, age does not

matter. Natalie raises a question which

comes up in these debates, she says, I feel increasing the that there is

a moral question of people who do not care for older people when they

are young, yet expect people will care for them when they reach that

age. We need to change the mindset, do we

not? When you bring up children you put time and energy into it, you get

pleasure from seeing them walk and talk, should we not be seeing it in

the same way with elderly people? We help a mother and father looked

after a baby because we can see how vulnerable it is. The issue with

older people is they are very vulnerable as well but we often

don't see the charm that babies have, so you don't want to help and

go round. When a new baby is born everybody goes round with food but

with an older person, not many people are knocking on doors in the

same way. Let's bring Dawinder back in. Children have a lot more charm

than elderly people, do you ask yourself that question every date?!

I look at it as an honour to look after my parents, actually, because

they have cared for me to be who I am today so why should I not give

that back to them? But I think there is this thing when you are looking

after children, you always know that they will transition out of that,

whereas with older people you know that it is going to be a decline,

they will get progressively more difficult, so I think that is the

difference. But the other things to add in here is about the

understanding we have from our employers, and I was very lucky and

fortunate to have managers who have always understood my personal

situation and have given me the time off when I have needed it, they have

been very understanding and I think while we are looking at care homes

and talking about money being pumped in there, I think it needs to be...

I'm afraid we are running out of time, Dawinder, but thank you very

much for joining us, and thank you to the panel as well.

Now, over the long Bank Holiday weekend many people will be taking

And Mehreen Baig is off on a seaside trip for us, too.

But it's not for relaxation - she's taking on a new job.

Sightseeing is one of the most enjoyable things on any holiday but

today I'm on the Isle of Wight with a group of travellers with a

difference. Half of them are blind. The tour is led by this man who

became blind at 18 as a result of a genetic condition and quickly

realised that holidays had become more difficult. Every time I tried

to travel, travel company said, you are blind, you cannot travel with

us, and I realised that if you want something in this world that does

not exist, you either do without all build it yourself. So he came up

with the idea of a tour company for blind people called Travel Eyes,

which matches visually impaired travellers with sighted travellers

and today he is going to show me how it works. So I would take your arm

officially the person takes the back of the elbow, a few steps behind

you, so if you were to disappear off the edge of the cliff then I would

know to stop! Crucially, I have to describe what I see. Down the

right-hand side there is an endless of water. Silvery blue water. We had

to the Needles, one of the Isle of Wight's most popular attractions.

Maybe you can take my hand and brought them out as well? OK, so...

Said this is the first one, and the second one, which looks like the

longest one, then there is a stack of water, then the one closest to

us. Today is all about senses other than site. Look what I got you! Oh,

that is nice. When you are travelling with the

visually impaired person, as a sighted person you might become more

aware of the other senses because we are not focused on sight, we get a

chance to touch things come, taste things. And we don't do that enough,

I guess? I have learned a lot so far but I want to know how the

experience has been for the rest of the group. To be able to come here

by myself and have the independence to explore different places, to be

able to sit and laugh with everyone else, I know that there are so many

women and girls who will never get that opportunity. As the day goes on

I feel I am getting the hang of this. I am old enough to take him

down 180 steps to the beach. All in front of us now is the water. Is

that pebbles I can hear? It is, it is all pebbles. Then a close-up view

of the island's famous coloured sand rocks.

It is literally flat, like someone just touched it.

It is a popular souvenir, too. What have we got here? A bottle in the

shape of the guitar and I filled it up at Beesands shop here in the bay.

Why did you choose a bottle in the shape of the guitar? It is such an

interesting shape and you can feel the strings as well. Can you? Oh, my

goodness, you can! I have wanted to come to the Needles and do the

coloured sand for years, it was on my to do list before I died. How

lovely! We are firm travel buddies now and

the friendship is about to be tested.

And now we step onto the boat. OK. You might need to save me! I have

got you. Cheese! This trip has been a learning curve for me. In a

sighted Society you don't get to appreciate all the things about you

but these people are taking their time to describe all of the little

details and it teaches you to live in the moment and appreciate where

you are, surrounded by beautiful things.

That's nearly all from us for this week.

But why don't you join Samanthi for live chat online after the show?

Yes, I'll be talking to barrister Sophia Cannon

Log on to facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive

In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole