Episode 10 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 10

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On today's programme: Are street grooming gangs a Muslim problem,

:00:00.:00:13.

as was claimed in a tabloid this week, or is the language

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we use around the issue racist and divisive?

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Equality campaigners propose all jobs be open to part

:00:19.:00:20.

Will such measures help to close the gender pay gap

:00:21.:00:24.

We ask is equality impossible in the workplace?

:00:25.:00:29.

Also on today's show, will we take over the world?

:00:30.:00:33.

I don't know about that, Sanbot, but I hope you're not looking

:00:34.:00:35.

As tech billionaires battle over machines that can

:00:36.:00:39.

think for themselves, should we be worried

:00:40.:00:40.

Emma Barnett is here ready to help you join in the debates.

:00:41.:00:45.

And you should be worried about that robot! We want to hear from you

:00:46.:01:00.

about all our discussions, especially the first one about

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grooming gangs. You can contact us by

:01:02.:01:03.

Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use

:01:04.:01:05.

the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed

:01:06.:01:07.

by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your

:01:08.:01:09.

standard message rate. Or email us at

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[email protected] However you choose to get in touch,

:01:12.:01:16.

please don't forget to include your name so I can get you involved

:01:17.:01:19.

in our discussions. And later we'll meet

:01:20.:01:21.

a pioneering RAF pilot who has The fact is, that there are already

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thousands of people serving in the US military who are transgender. I

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am living proof that being transgender does not affect how you

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do your job. This week Labour MP

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for Rotherham Sarah Champion quit her role on the Shadow Cabinet

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after criticism over a newspaper article she wrote

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about grooming gangs. "Britain has a problem

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with British Pakistani men raping and exploiting white girls,"

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she wrote in The Sun on Friday. Or am I just prepared

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to call out this horrifying She has since apologised for what

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she described as an extremely poor choice of words.

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In the same newspaper, another article by former Sun

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political editor Trevor Kavanagh referred to "the Muslim problem".

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It was condemned in an open letter signed by more than 100 MPs,

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So should race be talked about when tackling grooming gangs or are we in

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danger of alienating a community? Joining us now are Nazir Afzal,

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former Chief Crown Prosecutor for North West England,

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Michelle Dewberry, a broadcaster Kieran Yates,

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a journalist and writer, and Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive

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of the Ramadhan Foundation. Hearing, has some of the language

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that has been used been racist and divisive? I think it has definitely

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stoked the fire of prejudice and racism that already exists in the

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UK. What it has also done is derailed the conversation away from

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the victims, by somehow suggesting there is something inherently

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sexually deviant about British Pakistani man, which is disgusting.

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What about future victims? If we don't talk about this properly, we

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will never solve the problem. Of course any investigation has got to

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unpick and discuss the issues of culture and religion, but what

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Trevor Kavanagh and Sarah Champion have done is make the conversation

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simply about that and devoid of nuance. How did you review the

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apology? I think it was a necessary for her to do that. What Sarah

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Champion did was speak the truth. It is not racist to say that Pakistani

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men are grooming and abusing and raping white ladies or girls, if

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that is what they are doing. Grouping them altogether? A

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Pakistani men are doing that. Some Pakistani men. She never said all in

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her article. People are leaping on this and suggesting that somehow

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anybody with a brain cell is walking around thinking that all Pakistani

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people are doing this. Lady had suggested that all Pakistani men are

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doing anything. Brexit nobody has suggested that all Pakistani men are

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doing anything. Growing up as a mixed-race boy in 1980s Britain,

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people talked about black people committing crimes, and that affected

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me. I was no more likely to commit a crime and my white colleagues.

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Pakistani men are feeling finger pointed. Nobody is suggesting that

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all Pakistani men are doing anything. Sarah Champion's article

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was correct. She should not have resigned and I think she was forced

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into that. She should have stood by her words and her position. You have

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been involved in prosecuting gangs. Does race and religion play a part

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in these crimes? As people have said already, you can't get away from the

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fact that British Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in

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street grooming. British white paedophiles have a different

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approach. They work in institutions and they organise themselves in a

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different way. The question that you should be asking is why we focusing

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on race and not sexism, when we haven't talked about the victims and

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what they gone through. I am with Michelle. I have known Sarah for a

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long time and she is a champion for victims and everybody involved in

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this is a champion for victims. We can't get away from the fact that

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British Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in group

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grooming. Is it a race crime? It is about the availability and

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vulnerability of young girls. Is it about the way they view white girls?

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Part of that is true. They also targeted Pakistani girls and girls

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from other ethnicities. I prosecuted the ringleader of Rochdale for his

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abuse. But a smaller amount. I totally get that. That is right. The

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fact is that victims would be targeted by predators from all

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communities. We can't get away from the fact that Pakistani men are

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disproportionately more involved in street grooming white girls, can we?

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You can't and the facts speak for themselves. I have always been very

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consistent in saying that as a community we have got to deal with

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this. What has been difficult over the last ten days has been when it

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has been politicised. Politicians and commentators turning it into a

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massive debate. As my colleague said. And we have forgotten the

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reality, the victims. I have met these victims. I have spoken to

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them. Do you know the most distressing thing? Not a single

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person commenting on this is talking about their experiences. I think we

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should be talking about that. In terms of Sarah Champion, I think it

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was right that she resigned. She deliberately lied and told the

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mysteries when she said that she had the article jape by The Sun. -- and

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told an untruth. It was signed off by her office, not The Sun. This

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inflammatory talking about race feed paranoia among the far right. I am

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standing up against these gangs and I have been campaigning against them

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since 2007. But when you make inflammatory comments, as she did,

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as a shadow qualities secretary, her position is untenable. You are

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talking to one of the victims now. Yes, it is often said that the

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victim's voice gets lost in these conversations.

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I'm joined now by Sammy Woodhouse, a victim of the Rochdale grooming

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gang, and now a campaigner for victims of abuse.

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Good morning. Do you think race and religion played any role in the way

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that these gangs operated? You had first-hand experience of it. I think

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it has in some cases, yes. We can't get away from that. There has been

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evidence in court cases throughout the country. As a country, we are

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open to talking about white men raping children, but we are in 2017

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and we can't say Pakistani con Muslim and child abuse in the same

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sentence. There are lots of factors involved, not just race and

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religion. I was targeted because of my sex, I was a girl. You are

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targeted for different reasons. There were different races involved.

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The fact that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, or he was.

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He was very open to getting away with it and he thought it was

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normal. If I can just break in, do you feel the fact that you are white

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played a role in the fact that you were seen as vulnerable? I think it

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did. That is part of why we were ignored and it was covered up. That

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is happening throughout the country, a pattern. We can't make it all

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about race, especially on to one race, but we also can't get away

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from the facts. We can't tackle it unless we discuss everything. Do you

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get frustrated when you see somebody like Sarah Champion having to resign

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from the Shadow Cabinet or feeling like she has got to because she has

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written what are facts, as she sees them, in a newspaper article?

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Definitely. As a country we can have an open and honest discussion about

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race and religion. I don't think Sarah did anything wrong and I don't

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see eye to eye with her myself, but putting that to one side, I think

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she said something that is the truth. What's Jeremy Corbyn did by

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sacking her, it resigning, whichever it was, I think that sends a far

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more dangerous message, saying that we can't have these discussions. If

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you were to summarise what role Pakistani culture or Islamic culture

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potentially played in the fact that you were chosen to be groomed as a

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young white girl, how would you summarise that from your point of

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view and your experience? I think there are a few factors involved.

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There are some Muslims that few women in poor light, especially if

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you are not a Muslim girl or Muslim woman yourself. I think we need to

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be open to talking about it. I don't understand why it has got to be a

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secret. Let's tackle it from all angles. I appreciate you talking to

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us this morning. Thank you. You have been getting in touch with your

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views. Please keep doing so. Ruth says why should this be an

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uncomfortable truth? Discuss it openly without the fear of being

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called racist. It is impossible not to bring race and religion into

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these conversations. Doreen: The reality is that a group of men

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exploited and raped young, vulnerable girls. Is it racist to

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mention that the girls were white British and the men were of Asian

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origin? These are the facts. Suzanne says that all of the offenders were

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British-born. Does that mean that Britain is a nation of sex

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offenders? You can't tar everybody with the same brush. And this one

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says, the question is not whether the MP is racist but why a large

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number of men from one community are preying on vulnerable girls. Very

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interesting. Sammy says in 2017 we can't use the words child abuse and

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Pakistani men in the same sentence. Is that political correctness gone

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mad? I think she was saying that we can't make this completely about

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race. And what we have seen, we are having a discussion about media

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responses, and British Pakistani men are always part of the conversation

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when we are talking about this. They have been intertwined into this

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narrative, and that is why Sarah Champion was right to stand down.

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When we are talking about this case in particular, there is a systemic

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failure of Greater Manchester Police who did not believe the victims.

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There is something we need to unpick and discuss their without derailing

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the conversation. We discuss all parts of it, so why can't we talk

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about Pakistani men who are highly involved in this? What about talking

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about Polish truck drivers abusing young black girls? We would talk

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about Polish truck drivers and the way they view young black women. We

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are talking about Pakistani men disproportionately involved in

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abusing young, white women. Why can't we talk about the way that

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Pakistani men are brought up to view women who do not fit the mould that

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they are expecting and don't act in the way they are expecting? Why

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can't we talk about that? Among these criminals there is a mindset

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that white girls are worthless. I say it time and time

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again. Is it the criminals or is it the culture? Are they brought up to

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think like that? It is not the culture. I am a Muslim and a

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Pakistani and there is no way in my face and in my community that we

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were brought up to say you can rape white girls. When you see a young

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white girl who is vulnerable, maybe drinking, on the streets, there is a

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problem that they are viewing them, some Pakistani men, are viewing them

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in a different way. Are they just criminals or is it a cultural thing?

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Answer the question. What I am saying is that it is an issue and we

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need to address the issue. Why can't we talk about this in terms of race?

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Show me some respect. I have been campaigning about this since 2007,

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even when the police and everybody else was finding excuse for the

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grooming. I was on the street campaigning and all we have been

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talking about his race and grooming for the last ten years. We need to

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talk about this in terms of race. I know but are we also going to talk

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about the huge endemic problem of child abuse the church? And Jimmy

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Savile? Let's just get real on these issues and remember that was one

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victim. I have met many, and I am sure he has. More than I have had

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breakfast! With Jimmy Savile, the focus and the finger was pointed out

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a lot of male celebrities and rightly so. Somebody in my position

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cannot do what he did and we talked about it. We discussed it. With the

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Catholic Church we discussed it. Judgment here is that we cannot talk

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about it in terms of race. I have prosecuted dozens of these

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cases, there is always this conversation for a few weeks after

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the trial, then we forget about it. I am with you, we should have this

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conversation day in, day out. Some British Pakistani men have a problem

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with white girls on the street, there is violent misogyny going on,

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misogyny more than anything drives their attitude towards women and

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girls. We need to tackle it, every community, including the British

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Pakistani community. I am never afraid of

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saying who is responsible, if they are responsible they need to do

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something. We have focused on this issue for ten days, we have not

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focused about the victims, why they were not believed and why they

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continue to suffer. Michelle, what can we do? Have a honest

:15:29.:15:30.

conversations, I fundamentally disagree with you both when you say

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Sarah Champion should have resigned. You should be able to have those

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conversations, have the courage of your convictions, hold your position

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once you have spoken those truths. The second thing is talk to these

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people, there have been so many convictions now, talk to these

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people and understand what is going on, how can we stop this? There is

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some form of cultural influence, it has to be talked about and

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understood. I am afraid we are out of time, thank you.

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Caroline Paige served in the RAF for more than three decades as a jet

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and helicopter navigator but her career is notable for more

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than just her remarkable service and battlefield expertise.

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In 1999 she became the first transgender officer to transition

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Wendy Robbins went on a tour of duty to find out more about Caroline's

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When Caroline Paige joined the Royal Air Force in 1980, her colleagues

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knew her as a man called Eric, and identity she had struggled with all

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her life. I saw myself as a female that just

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happen to have been born with a boy's body for some reason, but I

:16:50.:16:54.

knew that I was now joining an organisation whereby if I was

:16:55.:17:02.

discovered that I was transgender, then I would be thrown out.

:17:03.:17:07.

Caroline kept her secret for 19 years of her flying career. It was

:17:08.:17:11.

something she had lived with since the age of five, when she saw a

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dress on her mother's bed. I felt, well, what a beautiful

:17:16.:17:20.

dress, I need to wear the dress. I put it on and it felt wonderful,

:17:21.:17:25.

natural, it was me, but it was a little bit tight. And I heard

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footsteps approaching and it was my father, and I panicked and I could

:17:33.:17:36.

not get the dress. I found it very difficult because he shouted at me

:17:37.:17:40.

and made it very clear it was completely wrong, and that

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frightened me. So I felt the best thing to do was hide it. My life

:17:44.:17:48.

then became one of hopes and dreams, each night I went to bed and I would

:17:49.:17:51.

hope that the following morning I would wake up and it would be fixed,

:17:52.:18:01.

I would be the girl that I knew I was.

:18:02.:18:02.

You wanted to be a girl, you are wearing your mum's clothes, yet you

:18:03.:18:05.

also wanted to fly fast jets. It goes back to my days in Melayu when

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we lived on an army base and the helicopters used to come backwards

:18:10.:18:13.

and forwards and lands in the field next to the house -- my days in

:18:14.:18:20.

Malaya. At 15 I learned to fly gliders, I was in the sky is 2000

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feet on my own and I felt it was wonderful, fantastic. It was the

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first time I had seen there was something I could do. You joined the

:18:30.:18:34.

RAF, then a very macho environment. It was quite a contrast.

:18:35.:18:45.

There were no female is allowed to fly the fast jets, combat aircraft,

:18:46.:18:53.

in the 80s. Not until 1991. It was a very male environment and, of

:18:54.:18:57.

course, it was an extra pressure because I knew that if I was

:18:58.:19:01.

discovered I would be dismissed from the air force immediately and I

:19:02.:19:06.

would be outed. What led you after 19 years to reveal your true

:19:07.:19:11.

identity and tell the authorities? I was always living with the fear of

:19:12.:19:15.

getting caught, and I realise that, you know what? I have to standard, I

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accept the consequences and see where it goes. I went to see the

:19:20.:19:27.

medical officer and I sat down and told her, right, I need to tell you

:19:28.:19:31.

something. When I did, she cleared her appointment is for the rest of

:19:32.:19:34.

the afternoon. You must have expected to be thrown out? Yes, I

:19:35.:19:39.

expected thank you very much, we no longer require your servers, get

:19:40.:19:44.

out. That is going to be disappointing, but a decision came

:19:45.:19:49.

back that they wanted to keep me in service, which was absolutely

:19:50.:19:54.

amazingly wonderful. Well, I never dreamt that this would be possible,

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and here I am now, Caroline Paige, female officer in the RAF.

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In the end, the military reacted better than your parents? And

:20:04.:20:07.

fortunately my brothers never spoke to me again, my dad initially turned

:20:08.:20:12.

round and said, as far as I'm concerned, you are dead --

:20:13.:20:15.

unfortunately my brothers never spoke to me again. That is why I

:20:16.:20:19.

kept the secret so long for my family. I anticipated losing them.

:20:20.:20:23.

My father was really lovely, I looked into bits, I think he was

:20:24.:20:27.

slowly coming to terms and realising I was still his child and he wanted

:20:28.:20:32.

to support me, I think that is happening, but unfortunately he had

:20:33.:20:35.

a heart attack and died. You were not allowed to go to the funeral?

:20:36.:20:43.

The family decided they did not want me at the funeral, but I agreed with

:20:44.:20:46.

a padre at the base and I have my private servers, but it was very

:20:47.:20:50.

sad. In 2000 tabloid newspaper discovered

:20:51.:20:54.

Caroline's story. She then experienced hostility from some REF

:20:55.:20:59.

colleagues. People came up to me and said get out of RF force, our

:21:00.:21:02.

military, what on earth are you doing serving? It made me more

:21:03.:21:07.

determined to want to get the front line and prove them wrong.

:21:08.:21:11.

Caroline was already experienced on the front line before transitioning.

:21:12.:21:18.

She went on to serve a further 16 years flying battlefield helicopters

:21:19.:21:21.

in Afghanistan and Iraq, winning several commendations for her work.

:21:22.:21:25.

She forged lasting friendships with colleagues during that time,

:21:26.:21:29.

including Andy, with whom she flew for a decade.

:21:30.:21:32.

We have been hearing Caroline's story, I wonder what you made of

:21:33.:21:38.

what happened to her? We have flown together on operations from

:21:39.:21:41.

Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, on many dangerous missions. She is the

:21:42.:21:46.

same as everyone else, Maxine, great sense of humour, helps us through

:21:47.:21:51.

the hard times, I think. -- McKerrs in, great sense of humour. Last

:21:52.:21:57.

month Trump treated his intention to ban transgender military personnel,

:21:58.:22:02.

part of his rationale said it would degrade military readiness and

:22:03.:22:07.

demoralise the troops. What did you make of that? It is appalling. There

:22:08.:22:13.

are already thousands of people serving in the US military who are

:22:14.:22:17.

transgender, and they have been on the front line, they have been stood

:22:18.:22:20.

next to their colleagues doing the job as well as anybody else. I am

:22:21.:22:24.

living proof that being transgendered is not affect how you

:22:25.:22:28.

do your job. Wendy Robbins talking to Caroline

:22:29.:22:30.

Paige. Still to come on Sunday Morning

:22:31.:22:30.

Live: As robots are becoming more developed could they ever take

:22:31.:22:33.

over from humans? In the long term there is an

:22:34.:22:43.

existential risk of do you create a form of being batters more

:22:44.:22:44.

intelligent than us? The latest in a string of terror

:22:45.:22:47.

attacks to hit Europe this year occurred in Spain this week,

:22:48.:22:50.

as the Catalonia region of the country was struck twice

:22:51.:22:52.

by people driving cars The first happened on Thursday

:22:53.:22:54.

as a white van smashed into people on the famous boulevard and tourist

:22:55.:22:58.

hotspot of Las Ramblas, while it was packed

:22:59.:23:01.

with holiday makers. Emergency services were quickly on

:23:02.:23:12.

the scene but the devastating attack left 13 people dead and more than

:23:13.:23:13.

100 injured. One of the visitors to Barcelona

:23:14.:23:14.

at the time was the security expert Will Geddes, who was one

:23:15.:23:17.

of the first on the scene I know you are not directly there

:23:18.:23:25.

when the car hits, but what did you see in the aftermath, what did you

:23:26.:23:28.

hear? As soon as I got with the attack was taking place I got down

:23:29.:23:32.

to the court in as quickly as possible, I had been at Las Ramblas

:23:33.:23:35.

only a couple of hours previous to the attack so I knew the area quite

:23:36.:23:40.

well. When I got there the Spanish authorities have been very quick and

:23:41.:23:44.

establishing a chord in, lots of the blue light services had arrived and

:23:45.:23:50.

obviously lots of visitors were moved out of the location -- very

:23:51.:23:53.

quick in establishing a cordon. They seem to have good control very

:23:54.:23:58.

quickly. Is a security expert, you were there on business, which is

:23:59.:24:02.

rather ironic given what happened, why is this being described as the

:24:03.:24:06.

new normal, vehicles driving into crowds? Lots of people use the term

:24:07.:24:10.

low-tech, I think that gives too much sophistication to something

:24:11.:24:15.

which we can fundamentally all access, a vehicle. In every city

:24:16.:24:19.

centre, unless they start banning wholesale vehicles being able to

:24:20.:24:23.

access, we will always face this risk. The problem is the camouflage

:24:24.:24:27.

of a vehicle being used as a delivery device for an attack will

:24:28.:24:31.

only be determined at the last minute when it starts to strike

:24:32.:24:35.

members of the public. In terms of what you can do in these situations,

:24:36.:24:40.

many people are abroad in tourist hotspots at the moment, have you any

:24:41.:24:47.

tips? Is lots of people will no doubt assess, be aware of your

:24:48.:24:51.

surroundings, the people in your surroundings, try to establish as

:24:52.:24:55.

much as you can in your gut as to how you feel. And stop looking at

:24:56.:25:01.

your mobile phone? Absolutely. You are not giving yourself a chance to

:25:02.:25:05.

detect the problem before it happens. The second thing is to look

:25:06.:25:10.

for points of escape, if you are walking down the boulevard, the cup

:25:11.:25:13.

the side streets, shops, restaurants, if you needed to take

:25:14.:25:16.

over quickly, where would you do that? If they are not available,

:25:17.:25:21.

street furniture like parked cars or a roll of motorcycles. It might not

:25:22.:25:25.

be the most robust coverage but at least it is some level of coverage.

:25:26.:25:35.

As a family, with your partner or children, try to have an emergency

:25:36.:25:38.

plan. If you get separated, where do you regroup? Back at the hotel or

:25:39.:25:42.

somewhere else? Would you stop going to tourist hotspots? Not at all, all

:25:43.:25:46.

that has happened in Barcelona is to reiterate that there is no set your

:25:47.:25:49.

location across Europe exempt from these threats. Thank you very much,

:25:50.:25:51.

Will. Every job should be opened

:25:52.:25:54.

to part-time working according to the Equality

:25:55.:25:56.

and Human Rights Commission. The agency claims such

:25:57.:25:57.

measures would help reduce as well as address the pay

:25:58.:25:59.

differences affecting ethnic minorities and the disabled

:26:00.:26:03.

across all industries in the UK. Part-time hours, job sharing

:26:04.:26:05.

and other flexible working schemes could help reduce the motherhood

:26:06.:26:07.

penalty that many women face after having children,

:26:08.:26:10.

the commission says. But MP Philip Davies,

:26:11.:26:12.

a member of the Commons women and equalities committee,

:26:13.:26:15.

called the proposals left-wing claptrap and

:26:16.:26:17.

nanny state nonsense. So should employers

:26:18.:26:18.

be more flexible? Or would such changes make it

:26:19.:26:24.

unfeasible to run a business? Joining me now are Stefan Stern,

:26:25.:26:26.

who writes about management, and Christopher Snowden

:26:27.:26:29.

from the Institute And still

:26:30.:26:30.

with us are the journalist and writer Kieran Yates

:26:31.:26:33.

and broadcaster and businesswoman Stefan, starting with you, some

:26:34.:26:43.

business leaders have said implementing these plans would be

:26:44.:26:48.

impossible. Would they be bad for business? I think we all want

:26:49.:26:51.

flexibility. Bosses have been telling us about the flexible labour

:26:52.:26:54.

force they need but that has to go to microwaves. Businesses are losing

:26:55.:26:58.

out on the talents and abilities of all sort of people who cannot get

:26:59.:27:01.

the hours that they want or need which suits the demands of their

:27:02.:27:05.

life, whether part-time working, term time working, certain times of

:27:06.:27:14.

the year they do not want to work. We are underperforming as a country,

:27:15.:27:16.

low productivity, lower wages, frustration about the economic

:27:17.:27:19.

circumstances. When something is not working, we need more flexibility so

:27:20.:27:22.

more of us can give our best at work. Michelle, you are a

:27:23.:27:26.

businesswoman, with these proposals help women into higher paid and

:27:27.:27:30.

high-ranking jobs? About there is a difference between part-time and

:27:31.:27:33.

flexible working, they are slightly different. To say that all jobs

:27:34.:27:38.

regardless of sector or responsibilities and workload can be

:27:39.:27:41.

offered with flexible working is just not practical in many work

:27:42.:27:48.

situations, it is just not. If you offer every potential employee

:27:49.:27:52.

flexible working, for example if I say I do not want to work on a

:27:53.:27:56.

Friday, if I had to hire a replacement for a Friday and he or

:27:57.:28:00.

she says they don't want to do Fridays either, do I get a third or

:28:01.:28:04.

fourth person? It is just not doable for all jobs to be flexible and/ or

:28:05.:28:10.

part-time, I don't believe. Kieran? We need to completely change the way

:28:11.:28:19.

we talk and flexible working hours. There are a couple of things at

:28:20.:28:24.

play, the gig economy and the high numbers of self-employed people have

:28:25.:28:27.

really changed the face of the British workforce. More women are

:28:28.:28:33.

taking up an increased role in the labour market and a bigger share of

:28:34.:28:40.

division and domestic in the house means that women had to start

:28:41.:28:44.

galvanising this campaign towards equal pay. I think that there are a

:28:45.:28:51.

couple of things to discuss and I do not think that demonising women for

:28:52.:28:53.

needing flexible hours for whatever reason is the way to go. Kieran

:28:54.:28:58.

talked about the gender pay gap, Christopher, how big an issue is it?

:28:59.:29:04.

It is tremendously misrepresented. It exists, but not for the reasons

:29:05.:29:08.

many people assume. It is not endemic sexism in the workplace. As

:29:09.:29:13.

is explained every year, it is three things, one women are much more

:29:14.:29:16.

likely to be in part-time work, which is generally paid less by the

:29:17.:29:22.

hour, they tend on average to go towards slightly less well paying

:29:23.:29:25.

occupations, things like childcare rather than engineering, for

:29:26.:29:35.

example, and... I forgot what the... The gender pay gap, often we talk

:29:36.:29:39.

about it with the same job? A woman doing the same job as a man? That

:29:40.:29:45.

ruins your argument. That has been a legal for 42 years. But there is a

:29:46.:29:51.

gender pay gap. On average, because more women are in part-time jobs and

:29:52.:29:54.

a gender pay gap. On average, because more women are in part-time

:29:55.:29:57.

jobs and in lower paid professions. If you look at like-for-like,

:29:58.:29:59.

comparing a female engineer with a male one, they had to be paid the

:30:00.:30:03.

same. If they were not, the courts would be overrun. It is the mistake

:30:04.:30:11.

of looking at averages when you need to look at individuals. It comes

:30:12.:30:16.

down to choices. The third one that I have remembered as bringing up

:30:17.:30:19.

families. If you are going to take several years out of the labour

:30:20.:30:22.

market you will obviously be paid less when you return to it, so these

:30:23.:30:28.

are down to choices. It depends on the context in which these

:30:29.:30:31.

apparently free choices are being made. If you look at the

:30:32.:30:34.

professional services, accountants and lawyers, at graduate level,

:30:35.:30:43.

there are as many women and men, but further up the chain the women have

:30:44.:30:48.

gone. Maybe because they have had families. But it is Beverly possible

:30:49.:30:55.

to have families and go to work. -- perfectly possible. Maybe we are

:30:56.:30:58.

putting pressure on women to go to work and not bring up their

:30:59.:31:04.

children. Of course but there is research that shows that women would

:31:05.:31:11.

cut their hours by half as much if they had genuine flexibility. From

:31:12.:31:14.

an economic point of view this is a waste of potential and talent. You

:31:15.:31:18.

are creating insecure workers. Women are insecure workers because they

:31:19.:31:24.

are not represented. Now we have an interesting guest on this.

:31:25.:31:27.

I'm joined by Danielle Ayers, a solicitor specialising

:31:28.:31:29.

in pregnancy, maternity and sex discrimination, who

:31:30.:31:30.

advises both employers and employees in these areas.

:31:31.:31:32.

Good morning. Have we still got a great deal of discrimination for

:31:33.:31:41.

women? Have you seen stories of late that you couldn't quite believe?

:31:42.:31:46.

Unfortunately, yes. You think in this day and age that employers

:31:47.:31:49.

would know what they have got to do in these situations and they would

:31:50.:31:53.

be up to date on the law, and they would not fall foul of these rules

:31:54.:31:57.

and regulations, but unfortunately it seems to be becoming more

:31:58.:32:01.

blatant. One of the main examples I can give you is equal pay. Women are

:32:02.:32:05.

being paid less to do the same job as men. That is different to looking

:32:06.:32:10.

at the gender pay gap, which is taking an average of your female

:32:11.:32:13.

workers and your mail workers and providing an average of their wages.

:32:14.:32:19.

Equal pay is looking at men and women doing the same job, where

:32:20.:32:22.

there can be no argument that women should not be paid the same. Why is

:32:23.:32:27.

it happening? It is down to employers not knowing what they

:32:28.:32:30.

should be doing in these situations. There was a report by the equality

:32:31.:32:33.

and human rights commission last year which said that more needs to

:32:34.:32:37.

be done to support employers. More needs to be done to give them the

:32:38.:32:40.

knowledge that they need to make sure that their employees are

:32:41.:32:43.

supported and doing the right things. What knowledge do they need?

:32:44.:32:50.

The law is the law, isn't it? Why is it happening? You would think so. I

:32:51.:32:53.

think employers have become more bolshy overtime and a lot has gone

:32:54.:32:58.

in their favour. Just a couple of weeks ago, the employment tribunal

:32:59.:33:03.

fees have been scrapped, which is a great thing, but a lot of things

:33:04.:33:07.

have happened. ACAS conciliation has been brought in, unfair dismissal,

:33:08.:33:11.

you can't bring an unfair dismissal complaint unless you have been

:33:12.:33:15.

employed for two years. They are becoming more bolshy in making

:33:16.:33:19.

decisions around staff. They have rights on their side. This idea that

:33:20.:33:23.

everybody should be offered flexible working, surely you can see the

:33:24.:33:27.

issue with that for buses? It is hardly workable for all companies.

:33:28.:33:33.

No, I don't think it is and I agree with those in the studio saying that

:33:34.:33:36.

but that is not what we are asking for here. I am asking that if you

:33:37.:33:42.

make an application that there is a sensible and informed discussion

:33:43.:33:45.

between the parties to see whether or not there is a workable solution

:33:46.:33:50.

for both. There cannot be a case where it is costing an employer so

:33:51.:33:54.

much just to put flexible working in place for an employee, however in

:33:55.:33:57.

the vast majority of cases there is a solution for both parties. Thank

:33:58.:34:05.

you for that. We have lots of responses here. Thank you. Mavis

:34:06.:34:08.

says that equality sounds fine on paper but so does communism.

:34:09.:34:10.

Different people work at different rates and some work better than

:34:11.:34:14.

others. Should they all get the same money? And Andrew says that all work

:34:15.:34:18.

should be opened up to allow part-time positions and people

:34:19.:34:21.

should be allowed to decide how many hours they are happy working. It has

:34:22.:34:24.

big benefits for the employer as well. That sounds nice! Now,

:34:25.:34:33.

Danielle Croce about businesses becoming bolshy. You have mentioned

:34:34.:34:39.

that women have become insecure. Yes, women are an increasingly

:34:40.:34:42.

insecure workforce because they are aware of discrimination. The gender

:34:43.:34:47.

pay gap, the same money for the same job, that is clear evidence of

:34:48.:34:53.

discrimination. British African women and Bangladeshi and Pakistani

:34:54.:34:55.

women are disproportionately affected. This is something that

:34:56.:34:58.

does exist and it is happening and we need to talk about it.

:34:59.:35:02.

Christopher says it doesn't exist. It exists but not for those reasons.

:35:03.:35:07.

The Office for National Statistics looked at this again this year and

:35:08.:35:11.

it said for the three reasons that I gave before the full explanation of

:35:12.:35:14.

it. There might be sexism here and there and that is why we have got

:35:15.:35:17.

the courts to look into these things. Sometimes it might be sexism

:35:18.:35:22.

against men, you don't know. These things are going to court on the

:35:23.:35:25.

occasions that they happen. It does not explain the 10% pay gap, which

:35:26.:35:31.

is just an average. It tells you nothing whatsoever. Likeable

:35:32.:35:35.

working, it is incredibly inefficient actually. It might be

:35:36.:35:40.

all right on a factory line or something but in most jobs doesn't

:35:41.:35:44.

work. And most people don't want part-time work. There are always

:35:45.:35:48.

more people who want full-time work you are working part-time currently

:35:49.:35:52.

than the other way round. Flexible working is inefficient? That

:35:53.:35:56.

management is inefficient and bosses who don't listen to their workforce

:35:57.:36:01.

are inefficient. -- bad management is inefficient. Not giving employees

:36:02.:36:07.

the chance to be flexible is inefficient. That explains chronic

:36:08.:36:14.

low productivity in this country. You couldn't work flexibly because

:36:15.:36:19.

then you couldn't be on this show. It works in some jobs and not

:36:20.:36:24.

others. That is right. Any NHS, they work long shift that we need them to

:36:25.:36:28.

be there and it has got to be managed. This is part of the job of

:36:29.:36:32.

being a good manager, using people properly. It is down to the

:36:33.:36:37.

managers? I think this conversation, this report calling for flexibility,

:36:38.:36:41.

it is just think tanks sitting in a corner somewhere dreaming up things

:36:42.:36:47.

to be more politically correct, to create equality, where actually it

:36:48.:36:50.

is not realistic in the real world, in the world of business for

:36:51.:36:55.

example, as one sector, you cannot turn around to all employers and say

:36:56.:36:59.

that all jobs need to be flexible and part-time. I want to touch on

:37:00.:37:03.

what Chris is saying. I agree with so much of what you are saying about

:37:04.:37:09.

the gender pay gap. You are talking about ladies feeling discriminated

:37:10.:37:12.

against in the workplace. I don't feel discriminated against in the

:37:13.:37:15.

workplace. I believe in myself and my abilities and I will negotiate

:37:16.:37:19.

hard. We need to stop saying to women that if you go into the world

:37:20.:37:23.

of work that you will be automatically earning 80p to the

:37:24.:37:29.

pound compared to men. Shouldn't we highlight a problem? That statistic,

:37:30.:37:32.

it is a headline figure which takes all the men and women in this room

:37:33.:37:35.

and says she earns 80p and he earns ?1 and now we have got a problem.

:37:36.:37:41.

You can only compared pay and discuss whether it is fair when you

:37:42.:37:45.

take two people doing the same job with the same experience. So there

:37:46.:37:49.

is no gender pay gap problem? I don't feel that taking the headline

:37:50.:37:57.

figure and saying that women own 80p and men ?1 is helpful. An equal pay

:37:58.:38:04.

is illegal. Yes I know, is there gender pay gap problem? Not in the

:38:05.:38:08.

way you're trying to describe with that headline figure, no. Thank you

:38:09.:38:09.

very much. A recent University of Oxford

:38:10.:38:12.

study concluded that artifical intelligence, or AI,

:38:13.:38:14.

will be better than humans at all tasks within 45 years,

:38:15.:38:16.

and many people, including Stephen Hawking, believe humans

:38:17.:38:20.

will be in trouble in the future if our ambitions don't match

:38:21.:38:22.

with those of machines. Now two tech titans are engaged

:38:23.:38:25.

in a public disagreement about AI. Billionaires Elon Musk

:38:26.:38:28.

and Mark Zuckerberg have differing opinions of the future possibility

:38:29.:38:34.

of machines that can Tesla and SpaceX founder

:38:35.:38:36.

Musk has been warning A few days ago he tweeted "If you're

:38:37.:38:43.

not concerned about AI Facebook's Zuckerberg thinks

:38:44.:38:48.

it's all fear-mongering. Responding to Musk's

:38:49.:38:55.

warnings he said, "I think and in some ways I actually think

:38:56.:38:59.

it is pretty irresponsible". To explore the issue further,

:39:00.:39:03.

we sent Samanthi Flanagan Whether we realise it or not, robots

:39:04.:39:19.

and artificial intelligence are becoming more and more part of our

:39:20.:39:23.

everyday lives. I am here to meet the curator of the robots

:39:24.:39:26.

exhibition, Ben Russell, who introduced me to a rather theatrical

:39:27.:39:32.

robot. This is Robo thespian, built by a UK company. He is quite

:39:33.:39:39.

remarkable. They decided to build a robot actor. His movements are

:39:40.:39:43.

naturalistic and characterful and the expression, on his face, a

:39:44.:39:48.

wonderful thing. Surely a robot couldn't replace the human actor.

:39:49.:39:52.

They are not capable of emotions. You can programme stuff in. Whether

:39:53.:39:56.

or not he is a motoring is the question. It is following a piece of

:39:57.:40:02.

code, effectively. They can't improvise. They find it difficult!

:40:03.:40:08.

Is it something you are working towards? At the moment they are very

:40:09.:40:14.

good at doing a carefully defined job in a very specific way

:40:15.:40:18.

repeatedly, but not acting in the human environment of flexibility.

:40:19.:40:22.

Now a robot worker called Baxter who with no programming can teach a

:40:23.:40:27.

tough new tasks and is designed to work alongside humans. It takes bits

:40:28.:40:33.

of human nonverbal behaviour. If it moves its arm, it looks at where its

:40:34.:40:37.

arm is going. It looks at an obstacle, if rounds. So much of

:40:38.:40:42.

human conversation is not verbal and it is these physical cues that we

:40:43.:40:47.

picked up on and so it is very smart in this respect. Like a young child,

:40:48.:40:51.

Baxter learns to pick up the objects through trial and error, improving

:40:52.:40:57.

with each attempt. There are 3000 Baxters out there. They all learn

:40:58.:41:03.

and upload that information centrally. If one object picks it up

:41:04.:41:07.

successfully, it uploads that information and in theory all the

:41:08.:41:11.

other robot should be able to pick up the same object. Sharing

:41:12.:41:15.

information between machines is very important, machine learning. Do you

:41:16.:41:20.

think we need to monitor the development of AI? Absolutely.

:41:21.:41:23.

Everybody concentrates on the big red thing physically doing things,

:41:24.:41:27.

the robot, but there is a lot of software behind-the-scenes that we

:41:28.:41:29.

don't think about and that is the important thing. We are taking our

:41:30.:41:33.

eye off the ball we are thinking about the robot. As complex as

:41:34.:41:39.

Baxter is, he doesn't look very human but this robot is uncannily

:41:40.:41:45.

lifelike and has found work as a newsreader. How humanlike do you

:41:46.:41:48.

want your robots to be? There is something called the uncanny valley.

:41:49.:41:52.

You build a machine and it gets a bit lifelike and we are happy with

:41:53.:41:56.

that. As soon as it is too lifelike, we get weird associations with

:41:57.:42:00.

corpses and other stuff, and people back away, and that is uncanny

:42:01.:42:06.

valley where robots plummet. What if we don't monitor the development of

:42:07.:42:09.

AI? In the long term there is existential risk of creating a being

:42:10.:42:15.

that is more intelligent than us. Generally, how does that

:42:16.:42:18.

intelligence work in a physical form? That is very comeback to the

:42:19.:42:22.

more mundane things which can trip is over. How do they interact with

:42:23.:42:25.

the world that we take entirely for granted and they find very

:42:26.:42:30.

difficult? That is a challenge. AI is a very different thing. I am

:42:31.:42:33.

going to argue that she will not replace me as a presenter and I will

:42:34.:42:39.

stick to that! Time will tell. Samanthi Flanagan visiting

:42:40.:42:42.

an exhibition which runs Samanthi showed some concern

:42:43.:42:44.

about her job being taken by robots, So over to our future overlord

:42:45.:42:47.

Sanbot with the question. Should you be worried

:42:48.:42:52.

about the rise of robots? I don't think so,

:42:53.:42:54.

but what do you think? To answer that question,

:42:55.:42:56.

I'm now joined by Luke Robert Mason,

:42:57.:42:58.

a science commentator, Michelle Hanson,

:42:59.:43:00.

a journalist and author, Kriti Sharma, vice

:43:01.:43:04.

president of AI at Sage, and Oliver Moody, science

:43:05.:43:06.

correspondent for The Times. Michelle, you have written about

:43:07.:43:16.

your concerns over the rise of artificial intelligence. What

:43:17.:43:19.

worries you the most? I am worried about this taking jobs, as she

:43:20.:43:24.

suggested. It has already taken over shop assistants. You can't go into

:43:25.:43:29.

Boots and talk to anybody. You have people standing around like odd

:43:30.:43:32.

socks with no job, just showing people how to use machines. All

:43:33.:43:39.

right, if they are going to take over thousands of jobs and people

:43:40.:43:42.

will be unemployed and people are going to get a basic wage, I bet it

:43:43.:43:47.

will be measly, not generous or luxurious. There are thousands of

:43:48.:43:51.

people out of work sitting at home with nothing to do. I expect there

:43:52.:43:55.

will be social unrest then, don't you? But robots are there to help

:43:56.:44:00.

us. Many people in history have worried about the advancement of

:44:01.:44:04.

technology. You're just like them, aren't you? No, it is much worse and

:44:05.:44:14.

out of hand now. The genie is out of the bottle. We have got to use them

:44:15.:44:17.

but we have got to control them. If you imagine it will be benign forces

:44:18.:44:20.

in charge of these robots, OK, but it won't be. It will be greedy

:44:21.:44:22.

people wanting to make lots of money. We are not a benign species

:44:23.:44:24.

and it is very risky. It seems dangerous building machines

:44:25.:44:34.

which will outsmart us and take our jobs? He is talking about super

:44:35.:44:38.

intelligent AI in the image and likeness of us as humans. Where a

:44:39.:44:44.

lot of the concern comes from Arendse per intelligent AI is that

:44:45.:44:46.

we are equating to human intelligence. We see intelligence is

:44:47.:44:51.

what makes us as humans the paragon of animals, but we have realised

:44:52.:44:57.

that humans do not necessarily always do the best thing for

:44:58.:45:02.

ourselves. Intelligence exists on a spectrum and if you look at where we

:45:03.:45:06.

existed here and chickens down here and dogs here, if we have something

:45:07.:45:11.

more intelligent than as we worry that we might be treated like the

:45:12.:45:15.

apes, if we take seriously the notion that we are an evolved

:45:16.:45:21.

version... That is worrying? Considering how humans are

:45:22.:45:23.

destroying the environment of animals and other entities. They

:45:24.:45:28.

would destroy us? We are concerned we will put the sorts of values that

:45:29.:45:33.

we have whereby humans have caused so much trauma and harm, we will

:45:34.:45:38.

translate some of that to our artificially intelligent machines.

:45:39.:45:43.

Are you worried? A I am to a degree, but I don't think we need to be as

:45:44.:45:47.

worried as some of us may code. Because it will not affect you, it

:45:48.:45:51.

will affect your grandchildren. Partially because I do not think it

:45:52.:45:57.

will happen. Will it happen? How club are these machines? Is who

:45:58.:46:02.

works in AI everyday we are quite far from machines taking over the

:46:03.:46:09.

world, but AI is already everywhere in our daily lives. If you have ever

:46:10.:46:13.

used Google search under prompts the next few words, it ranks the results

:46:14.:46:20.

based on what you see at the top, all you would talk to Siri, that is

:46:21.:46:25.

AI. It is not have to be a robot taking over the world, thank you to

:46:26.:46:31.

Hollywood for that image! We are creating AI good at certain

:46:32.:46:34.

specialised tax, it is doing a good job at augmenting and supporting

:46:35.:46:40.

humans. We need to design AI correctly. It is like any other

:46:41.:46:44.

industrial Revolution but the differences this time AI learns on

:46:45.:46:48.

its own. It is the job of the creators of AI as well as the humans

:46:49.:46:53.

teaching AI or talking to it to do it right. Oliver, is it worrying

:46:54.:46:57.

that we are making something that will be more clever than us? They

:46:58.:47:02.

will never have the same ability to generate emotion, art or music, so

:47:03.:47:06.

shouldn't we say we will always be better than them? Super intelligence

:47:07.:47:12.

is a bit like the Apocalypse of computing. It has been predicted so

:47:13.:47:17.

many times, in 1960 's and academic predicted it would happen within a

:47:18.:47:22.

generation. I think there are much bigger reasons to be worried about

:47:23.:47:26.

the impact AI is having a society now. There is a common misconception

:47:27.:47:30.

that AI is a magical process by which computers can make

:47:31.:47:35.

superhumanly perfect decisions about the world. That raises a serious

:47:36.:47:38.

enough moral question when it works, but what is worse is that it often

:47:39.:47:43.

does not and you are taking limited information about what people have

:47:44.:47:46.

done in the past and using it to make decisions about who gets a

:47:47.:47:51.

mortgage, who will reoffend when they leave prison? You are doing it

:47:52.:47:58.

very badly and it is a recipe for biased and Abhijit decisions that

:47:59.:48:00.

the computers cannot even explain. Many applications of AI are computer

:48:01.:48:05.

says no on steroids. I would love to say that Emma is talking to a robot

:48:06.:48:09.

but I do not think a robot would be able to deal with your difficult

:48:10.:48:10.

questions. I'm joined now by Noel Sharkey

:48:11.:48:12.

a professor of robotics And a real humanoids, I am told. We

:48:13.:48:23.

want to talk about jobs, lots of messages coming in, when will a

:48:24.:48:27.

robot take our jobs? Do you see that any time soon? It has already

:48:28.:48:32.

happened for some time, it is just the number of jobs they take. There

:48:33.:48:37.

is a lot of talk that perhaps there will be new jobs, and there

:48:38.:48:40.

certainly will be, but I fear that the new jobs will not be as many as

:48:41.:48:46.

we currently have, we will see a big job reduction, particularly in the

:48:47.:48:51.

service industry, making burgers, driving trucks and cars, taxis,

:48:52.:48:56.

those kinds of things will go first. AI is sweeping through many areas

:48:57.:48:59.

and it is difficult to really predict the future because there are

:49:00.:49:05.

new laws coming out in Europe and in the UK, I believe, where we are

:49:06.:49:10.

giving too many decisions to AI programmes. People are now looking

:49:11.:49:16.

at the idea that if these decisions impact on people they should be

:49:17.:49:19.

transparent and give a good explanation. That is difficult when

:49:20.:49:23.

you have machine learning because you are left with big matrices of

:49:24.:49:26.

numbers. We might see many of those things become a. On to emotion and

:49:27.:49:33.

nuance, when will we get to a point where robots and artificial

:49:34.:49:38.

intelligence develops that side of things? I can't see it myself. It

:49:39.:49:42.

might turn out that you need an organic body to feel emotions, I

:49:43.:49:46.

don't know nobody knows. We also chemical machine as well as a

:49:47.:49:53.

metaphor we have for our brains as computers, but they are quite

:49:54.:49:57.

chemical in origin and we might be able to simulate emotions, which we

:49:58.:50:01.

can do pretty well, we can make a robot smile and frowned, we can get

:50:02.:50:07.

them to perceive emotions in a sense that they can classify whether we

:50:08.:50:12.

are happy or sad, but getting them to understand sadness, a child

:50:13.:50:16.

crying, did it drop its lollipop down the toilet or did its mother

:50:17.:50:24.

just die? They are not good at subtle contextual stuff. As far as

:50:25.:50:28.

feeling emotions we are nowhere with that, we do not understand that.

:50:29.:50:33.

Thank you for painting a picture and doing a very good robot impression.

:50:34.:50:36.

One viewer says robots will only be as bad as we make them, without

:50:37.:50:41.

making them in our own image and our own reflection is frightening. If we

:50:42.:50:46.

give them our intellect, power and inhumanity they will be an adversary

:50:47.:50:51.

to humanity. Another person says we afraid of something better than us?

:50:52.:50:56.

Why not say, yes, they can do better than us. Another person says we

:50:57.:50:59.

should appreciate the rise of robots, solving problems for the

:51:00.:51:03.

future and automating more processors. Michael says we should

:51:04.:51:06.

only be afraid of the people behind the robots. We should be very afraid

:51:07.:51:12.

of them. Michelle, we are talking about robots being the answer to the

:51:13.:51:15.

social care crisis, they could help to look after the elderly, people

:51:16.:51:20.

with dementia? Surely even you can see that is good? That really

:51:21.:51:24.

frightens me because I am so old. The one in Japan, 24 fingered robot

:51:25.:51:28.

that washes your hair, I do not want that. We do not have enough people

:51:29.:51:34.

to do that. Get more people, pay them, sort out social care and stop

:51:35.:51:41.

wasting money McGraw robots. Kriti, a highly respected professor at

:51:42.:51:45.

Southampton University says it is not artificial intelligence that

:51:46.:51:49.

worries me, it is human stupidity. How far do you agree? We heard that

:51:50.:51:54.

from the e-mails? Humans are interacting with robots and

:51:55.:51:58.

surprisingly they are asking them out on dates, robots are trying to

:51:59.:52:02.

be as human as they can be. It is about designing the right solutions

:52:03.:52:06.

for the right problems. Lots of work needs to be done with education,

:52:07.:52:11.

health care, transportation, AI can help. Rather than focusing on the

:52:12.:52:16.

interactions that are stupid, we need to focus on problems to be

:52:17.:52:20.

sold. Can it solve our problems? That is less of an issue. What Noel

:52:21.:52:26.

Sharkey is talking about is key. We already seeing artificial entities

:52:27.:52:29.

with agency of the human beings, they are called artificial persons,

:52:30.:52:34.

otherwise known as corporations, we give them a degree of agency to

:52:35.:52:38.

cause a great deal of harm. This is not science fiction, it is already

:52:39.:52:44.

yet. Ten seconds, is it a good thing? Is what? AI. It has the

:52:45.:52:51.

potential to do enormous good, but now is the time to focus on the

:52:52.:52:55.

social problems that may create. In the future I will have this debate

:52:56.:52:59.

with ball robots. Or cyborgs. Yes. Thank you.

:53:00.:53:02.

A celebration of the Hindu God Krishna was marked this week.

:53:03.:53:04.

He is depicted in many ways, from an innocent child,

:53:05.:53:07.

a conquering hero, a lover, a cattle herder and a musician.

:53:08.:53:09.

Mehreen Baig went to Watford to join thousands of devotees and join

:53:10.:53:12.

I am at their home to the International successes --

:53:13.:53:27.

International Society For Krishna Consciousness,, better known as the

:53:28.:53:31.

Hare Krishna movement, when the house and the grounds were gifted to

:53:32.:53:35.

them by George Harrison. The man, just outside Watford, is one of the

:53:36.:53:40.

UK's most popular Hindu pilgrimage sites, and I am here for the biggest

:53:41.:53:45.

event of the year. More than 50,000 pilgrims are expected here over the

:53:46.:53:50.

course of two days to celebrate Janmashtami. This man has been a

:53:51.:53:54.

devotee of Krishna for 15 years. It is one of the most wonderful and joy

:53:55.:54:04.

you should occasions in our calendars, Sri Krishna Janmashtami,

:54:05.:54:08.

the birthday of Krishna, who we regard as supreme God. Krishna has

:54:09.:54:13.

many manifestations over the ages but the fountain had the source of

:54:14.:54:17.

all incarnations, it is said to be Krishna.

:54:18.:54:20.

Krishna is one of the most popular Hindu gods, so Hindus from many

:54:21.:54:24.

traditions gathered to mark his birthday. The spiritual focus of the

:54:25.:54:29.

day is to offer a prayer to Krishna in the temple. I can't wait to see

:54:30.:54:34.

inside. It is a very long queue. I can hear

:54:35.:54:44.

chanting, music. I have seen things like this in the

:54:45.:54:47.

Bollywood movies we watch at home, but never in real life. It is an

:54:48.:54:53.

incredible sights to see devotees making their offerings. Food is at

:54:54.:54:58.

the heart of the celebrations, everyone who attends the festival

:54:59.:55:05.

gets a free meal, and all the food is vegetarian. This woman, who hosts

:55:06.:55:09.

a vegetarian cooking demonstration, explains why. From the spiritual

:55:10.:55:14.

perspective, Krishna says if one offers me with love and devotion a

:55:15.:55:18.

leaf, a flower, fruit or water I will accept it. He said in the

:55:19.:55:26.

Bhagavad-Gita that killing animals is not permitted. So we are

:55:27.:55:31.

vegetarian. An army of volunteers work behind the scenes in the

:55:32.:55:37.

kitchen, preparing over 50,000 plates of the free food offered to

:55:38.:55:41.

pilgrims. After I have had a quick makeover, more of an explanation.

:55:42.:55:47.

My mother will be very proud. I can smell is an amazing things around

:55:48.:55:50.

me. Can you tell me what is going on? I can smell some amazing things.

:55:51.:56:00.

We have been preparing for four weeks, the last four days have been

:56:01.:56:03.

very intense, we have been chopping coriander and peppers. We offer the

:56:04.:56:08.

food to Lord Krishna once it has been sanctified. Then we give it to

:56:09.:56:15.

the pilgrims free of charge. What is the importance of feeding people?

:56:16.:56:22.

When you go to temples, you get sanctified food. It is about being a

:56:23.:56:33.

compassionate person. I am not a natural in the kitchen

:56:34.:56:37.

but my helpers welcomes all the same. I can do that. This is not me

:56:38.:56:43.

and my prime. -- my helper is a welcome to all the same.

:56:44.:56:49.

As well as food and worship their all kinds of entertainment choose

:56:50.:56:56.

from. When I spot a henna artist, I can't

:56:57.:57:03.

resist getting my hand painted. I am a devotee of Krishna, so every year

:57:04.:57:14.

for the last 17 years I have been doing mehndi for Krishna. In the

:57:15.:57:19.

Scripture it says that a person who has any talent given to you by Lord

:57:20.:57:23.

Krishna, you should offer that if you cannot festival time. This is

:57:24.:57:28.

the reason why I do mehndi every year. We are spreading the message

:57:29.:57:36.

of love, humility. Just give something to earth which God has

:57:37.:57:41.

given you. All too soon it is time to go home, but I am not leaving

:57:42.:57:47.

until I collect my plate. The best part of day! Thank you.

:57:48.:57:56.

And that is a very special end to a very special day. For me personally,

:57:57.:58:01.

this is a community I have barely had an inside too, so seeing what a

:58:02.:58:06.

strong sense of community there is, people who have been volunteering

:58:07.:58:09.

for weeks, coming after work to make sure everyone has a really great

:58:10.:58:12.

time, that was particularly heart-warming.

:58:13.:58:14.

That's all from us for this week.

:58:15.:58:15.

Many thanks to all our guests and you at home

:58:16.:58:18.

Emma will be carrying on the conversation online.

:58:19.:58:21.

Yes, I'll be talking to Kriti Sharma about the future

:58:22.:58:23.

Log on to facebook.com/bbcSundayMorningLive

:58:24.:58:25.

In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole

:58:26.:58:33.

Is the response to grooming gangs racist? Sean Fletcher and Emma Barnett lead a debate about the reaction to horrific crimes. Plus the future of artificial intelligence, is it something that should be embraced or feared?


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