Episode 10 Sunday Morning Live

Episode 10

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On today's programme: Are street grooming gangs a Muslim problem,


as was claimed in a tabloid this week, or is the language


we use around the issue racist and divisive?


Equality campaigners propose all jobs be open to part


Will such measures help to close the gender pay gap


We ask is equality impossible in the workplace?


Also on today's show, will we take over the world?


I don't know about that, Sanbot, but I hope you're not looking


As tech billionaires battle over machines that can


think for themselves, should we be worried


Emma Barnett is here ready to help you join in the debates.


And you should be worried about that robot! We want to hear from you


about all our discussions, especially the first one about


grooming gangs. You can contact us by


Facebook and Twitter. Don't forget to use


the hashtag #bbcsml. Or text SML followed


by your message to 60011. Texts are charged at your


standard message rate. Or email us at


[email protected] However you choose to get in touch,


please don't forget to include your name so I can get you involved


in our discussions. And later we'll meet


a pioneering RAF pilot who has The fact is, that there are already


thousands of people serving in the US military who are transgender. I


am living proof that being transgender does not affect how you


do your job. This week Labour MP


for Rotherham Sarah Champion quit her role on the Shadow Cabinet


after criticism over a newspaper article she wrote


about grooming gangs. "Britain has a problem


with British Pakistani men raping and exploiting white girls,"


she wrote in The Sun on Friday. Or am I just prepared


to call out this horrifying She has since apologised for what


she described as an extremely poor choice of words.


In the same newspaper, another article by former Sun


political editor Trevor Kavanagh referred to "the Muslim problem".


It was condemned in an open letter signed by more than 100 MPs,


So should race be talked about when tackling grooming gangs or are we in


danger of alienating a community? Joining us now are Nazir Afzal,


former Chief Crown Prosecutor for North West England,


Michelle Dewberry, a broadcaster Kieran Yates,


a journalist and writer, and Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive


of the Ramadhan Foundation. Hearing, has some of the language


that has been used been racist and divisive? I think it has definitely


stoked the fire of prejudice and racism that already exists in the


UK. What it has also done is derailed the conversation away from


the victims, by somehow suggesting there is something inherently


sexually deviant about British Pakistani man, which is disgusting.


What about future victims? If we don't talk about this properly, we


will never solve the problem. Of course any investigation has got to


unpick and discuss the issues of culture and religion, but what


Trevor Kavanagh and Sarah Champion have done is make the conversation


simply about that and devoid of nuance. How did you review the


apology? I think it was a necessary for her to do that. What Sarah


Champion did was speak the truth. It is not racist to say that Pakistani


men are grooming and abusing and raping white ladies or girls, if


that is what they are doing. Grouping them altogether? A


Pakistani men are doing that. Some Pakistani men. She never said all in


her article. People are leaping on this and suggesting that somehow


anybody with a brain cell is walking around thinking that all Pakistani


people are doing this. Lady had suggested that all Pakistani men are


doing anything. Brexit nobody has suggested that all Pakistani men are


doing anything. Growing up as a mixed-race boy in 1980s Britain,


people talked about black people committing crimes, and that affected


me. I was no more likely to commit a crime and my white colleagues.


Pakistani men are feeling finger pointed. Nobody is suggesting that


all Pakistani men are doing anything. Sarah Champion's article


was correct. She should not have resigned and I think she was forced


into that. She should have stood by her words and her position. You have


been involved in prosecuting gangs. Does race and religion play a part


in these crimes? As people have said already, you can't get away from the


fact that British Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in


street grooming. British white paedophiles have a different


approach. They work in institutions and they organise themselves in a


different way. The question that you should be asking is why we focusing


on race and not sexism, when we haven't talked about the victims and


what they gone through. I am with Michelle. I have known Sarah for a


long time and she is a champion for victims and everybody involved in


this is a champion for victims. We can't get away from the fact that


British Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in group


grooming. Is it a race crime? It is about the availability and


vulnerability of young girls. Is it about the way they view white girls?


Part of that is true. They also targeted Pakistani girls and girls


from other ethnicities. I prosecuted the ringleader of Rochdale for his


abuse. But a smaller amount. I totally get that. That is right. The


fact is that victims would be targeted by predators from all


communities. We can't get away from the fact that Pakistani men are


disproportionately more involved in street grooming white girls, can we?


You can't and the facts speak for themselves. I have always been very


consistent in saying that as a community we have got to deal with


this. What has been difficult over the last ten days has been when it


has been politicised. Politicians and commentators turning it into a


massive debate. As my colleague said. And we have forgotten the


reality, the victims. I have met these victims. I have spoken to


them. Do you know the most distressing thing? Not a single


person commenting on this is talking about their experiences. I think we


should be talking about that. In terms of Sarah Champion, I think it


was right that she resigned. She deliberately lied and told the


mysteries when she said that she had the article jape by The Sun. -- and


told an untruth. It was signed off by her office, not The Sun. This


inflammatory talking about race feed paranoia among the far right. I am


standing up against these gangs and I have been campaigning against them


since 2007. But when you make inflammatory comments, as she did,


as a shadow qualities secretary, her position is untenable. You are


talking to one of the victims now. Yes, it is often said that the


victim's voice gets lost in these conversations.


I'm joined now by Sammy Woodhouse, a victim of the Rochdale grooming


gang, and now a campaigner for victims of abuse.


Good morning. Do you think race and religion played any role in the way


that these gangs operated? You had first-hand experience of it. I think


it has in some cases, yes. We can't get away from that. There has been


evidence in court cases throughout the country. As a country, we are


open to talking about white men raping children, but we are in 2017


and we can't say Pakistani con Muslim and child abuse in the same


sentence. There are lots of factors involved, not just race and


religion. I was targeted because of my sex, I was a girl. You are


targeted for different reasons. There were different races involved.


The fact that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, or he was.


He was very open to getting away with it and he thought it was


normal. If I can just break in, do you feel the fact that you are white


played a role in the fact that you were seen as vulnerable? I think it


did. That is part of why we were ignored and it was covered up. That


is happening throughout the country, a pattern. We can't make it all


about race, especially on to one race, but we also can't get away


from the facts. We can't tackle it unless we discuss everything. Do you


get frustrated when you see somebody like Sarah Champion having to resign


from the Shadow Cabinet or feeling like she has got to because she has


written what are facts, as she sees them, in a newspaper article?


Definitely. As a country we can have an open and honest discussion about


race and religion. I don't think Sarah did anything wrong and I don't


see eye to eye with her myself, but putting that to one side, I think


she said something that is the truth. What's Jeremy Corbyn did by


sacking her, it resigning, whichever it was, I think that sends a far


more dangerous message, saying that we can't have these discussions. If


you were to summarise what role Pakistani culture or Islamic culture


potentially played in the fact that you were chosen to be groomed as a


young white girl, how would you summarise that from your point of


view and your experience? I think there are a few factors involved.


There are some Muslims that few women in poor light, especially if


you are not a Muslim girl or Muslim woman yourself. I think we need to


be open to talking about it. I don't understand why it has got to be a


secret. Let's tackle it from all angles. I appreciate you talking to


us this morning. Thank you. You have been getting in touch with your


views. Please keep doing so. Ruth says why should this be an


uncomfortable truth? Discuss it openly without the fear of being


called racist. It is impossible not to bring race and religion into


these conversations. Doreen: The reality is that a group of men


exploited and raped young, vulnerable girls. Is it racist to


mention that the girls were white British and the men were of Asian


origin? These are the facts. Suzanne says that all of the offenders were


British-born. Does that mean that Britain is a nation of sex


offenders? You can't tar everybody with the same brush. And this one


says, the question is not whether the MP is racist but why a large


number of men from one community are preying on vulnerable girls. Very


interesting. Sammy says in 2017 we can't use the words child abuse and


Pakistani men in the same sentence. Is that political correctness gone


mad? I think she was saying that we can't make this completely about


race. And what we have seen, we are having a discussion about media


responses, and British Pakistani men are always part of the conversation


when we are talking about this. They have been intertwined into this


narrative, and that is why Sarah Champion was right to stand down.


When we are talking about this case in particular, there is a systemic


failure of Greater Manchester Police who did not believe the victims.


There is something we need to unpick and discuss their without derailing


the conversation. We discuss all parts of it, so why can't we talk


about Pakistani men who are highly involved in this? What about talking


about Polish truck drivers abusing young black girls? We would talk


about Polish truck drivers and the way they view young black women. We


are talking about Pakistani men disproportionately involved in


abusing young, white women. Why can't we talk about the way that


Pakistani men are brought up to view women who do not fit the mould that


they are expecting and don't act in the way they are expecting? Why


can't we talk about that? Among these criminals there is a mindset


that white girls are worthless. I say it time and time


again. Is it the criminals or is it the culture? Are they brought up to


think like that? It is not the culture. I am a Muslim and a


Pakistani and there is no way in my face and in my community that we


were brought up to say you can rape white girls. When you see a young


white girl who is vulnerable, maybe drinking, on the streets, there is a


problem that they are viewing them, some Pakistani men, are viewing them


in a different way. Are they just criminals or is it a cultural thing?


Answer the question. What I am saying is that it is an issue and we


need to address the issue. Why can't we talk about this in terms of race?


Show me some respect. I have been campaigning about this since 2007,


even when the police and everybody else was finding excuse for the


grooming. I was on the street campaigning and all we have been


talking about his race and grooming for the last ten years. We need to


talk about this in terms of race. I know but are we also going to talk


about the huge endemic problem of child abuse the church? And Jimmy


Savile? Let's just get real on these issues and remember that was one


victim. I have met many, and I am sure he has. More than I have had


breakfast! With Jimmy Savile, the focus and the finger was pointed out


a lot of male celebrities and rightly so. Somebody in my position


cannot do what he did and we talked about it. We discussed it. With the


Catholic Church we discussed it. Judgment here is that we cannot talk


about it in terms of race. I have prosecuted dozens of these


cases, there is always this conversation for a few weeks after


the trial, then we forget about it. I am with you, we should have this


conversation day in, day out. Some British Pakistani men have a problem


with white girls on the street, there is violent misogyny going on,


misogyny more than anything drives their attitude towards women and


girls. We need to tackle it, every community, including the British


Pakistani community. I am never afraid of


saying who is responsible, if they are responsible they need to do


something. We have focused on this issue for ten days, we have not


focused about the victims, why they were not believed and why they


continue to suffer. Michelle, what can we do? Have a honest


conversations, I fundamentally disagree with you both when you say


Sarah Champion should have resigned. You should be able to have those


conversations, have the courage of your convictions, hold your position


once you have spoken those truths. The second thing is talk to these


people, there have been so many convictions now, talk to these


people and understand what is going on, how can we stop this? There is


some form of cultural influence, it has to be talked about and


understood. I am afraid we are out of time, thank you.


Caroline Paige served in the RAF for more than three decades as a jet


and helicopter navigator but her career is notable for more


than just her remarkable service and battlefield expertise.


In 1999 she became the first transgender officer to transition


Wendy Robbins went on a tour of duty to find out more about Caroline's


When Caroline Paige joined the Royal Air Force in 1980, her colleagues


knew her as a man called Eric, and identity she had struggled with all


her life. I saw myself as a female that just


happen to have been born with a boy's body for some reason, but I


knew that I was now joining an organisation whereby if I was


discovered that I was transgender, then I would be thrown out.


Caroline kept her secret for 19 years of her flying career. It was


something she had lived with since the age of five, when she saw a


dress on her mother's bed. I felt, well, what a beautiful


dress, I need to wear the dress. I put it on and it felt wonderful,


natural, it was me, but it was a little bit tight. And I heard


footsteps approaching and it was my father, and I panicked and I could


not get the dress. I found it very difficult because he shouted at me


and made it very clear it was completely wrong, and that


frightened me. So I felt the best thing to do was hide it. My life


then became one of hopes and dreams, each night I went to bed and I would


hope that the following morning I would wake up and it would be fixed,


I would be the girl that I knew I was.


You wanted to be a girl, you are wearing your mum's clothes, yet you


also wanted to fly fast jets. It goes back to my days in Melayu when


we lived on an army base and the helicopters used to come backwards


and forwards and lands in the field next to the house -- my days in


Malaya. At 15 I learned to fly gliders, I was in the sky is 2000


feet on my own and I felt it was wonderful, fantastic. It was the


first time I had seen there was something I could do. You joined the


RAF, then a very macho environment. It was quite a contrast.


There were no female is allowed to fly the fast jets, combat aircraft,


in the 80s. Not until 1991. It was a very male environment and, of


course, it was an extra pressure because I knew that if I was


discovered I would be dismissed from the air force immediately and I


would be outed. What led you after 19 years to reveal your true


identity and tell the authorities? I was always living with the fear of


getting caught, and I realise that, you know what? I have to standard, I


accept the consequences and see where it goes. I went to see the


medical officer and I sat down and told her, right, I need to tell you


something. When I did, she cleared her appointment is for the rest of


the afternoon. You must have expected to be thrown out? Yes, I


expected thank you very much, we no longer require your servers, get


out. That is going to be disappointing, but a decision came


back that they wanted to keep me in service, which was absolutely


amazingly wonderful. Well, I never dreamt that this would be possible,


and here I am now, Caroline Paige, female officer in the RAF.


In the end, the military reacted better than your parents? And


fortunately my brothers never spoke to me again, my dad initially turned


round and said, as far as I'm concerned, you are dead --


unfortunately my brothers never spoke to me again. That is why I


kept the secret so long for my family. I anticipated losing them.


My father was really lovely, I looked into bits, I think he was


slowly coming to terms and realising I was still his child and he wanted


to support me, I think that is happening, but unfortunately he had


a heart attack and died. You were not allowed to go to the funeral?


The family decided they did not want me at the funeral, but I agreed with


a padre at the base and I have my private servers, but it was very


sad. In 2000 tabloid newspaper discovered


Caroline's story. She then experienced hostility from some REF


colleagues. People came up to me and said get out of RF force, our


military, what on earth are you doing serving? It made me more


determined to want to get the front line and prove them wrong.


Caroline was already experienced on the front line before transitioning.


She went on to serve a further 16 years flying battlefield helicopters


in Afghanistan and Iraq, winning several commendations for her work.


She forged lasting friendships with colleagues during that time,


including Andy, with whom she flew for a decade.


We have been hearing Caroline's story, I wonder what you made of


what happened to her? We have flown together on operations from


Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, on many dangerous missions. She is the


same as everyone else, Maxine, great sense of humour, helps us through


the hard times, I think. -- McKerrs in, great sense of humour. Last


month Trump treated his intention to ban transgender military personnel,


part of his rationale said it would degrade military readiness and


demoralise the troops. What did you make of that? It is appalling. There


are already thousands of people serving in the US military who are


transgender, and they have been on the front line, they have been stood


next to their colleagues doing the job as well as anybody else. I am


living proof that being transgendered is not affect how you


do your job. Wendy Robbins talking to Caroline


Paige. Still to come on Sunday Morning


Live: As robots are becoming more developed could they ever take


over from humans? In the long term there is an


existential risk of do you create a form of being batters more


intelligent than us? The latest in a string of terror


attacks to hit Europe this year occurred in Spain this week,


as the Catalonia region of the country was struck twice


by people driving cars The first happened on Thursday


as a white van smashed into people on the famous boulevard and tourist


hotspot of Las Ramblas, while it was packed


with holiday makers. Emergency services were quickly on


the scene but the devastating attack left 13 people dead and more than


100 injured. One of the visitors to Barcelona


at the time was the security expert Will Geddes, who was one


of the first on the scene I know you are not directly there


when the car hits, but what did you see in the aftermath, what did you


hear? As soon as I got with the attack was taking place I got down


to the court in as quickly as possible, I had been at Las Ramblas


only a couple of hours previous to the attack so I knew the area quite


well. When I got there the Spanish authorities have been very quick and


establishing a chord in, lots of the blue light services had arrived and


obviously lots of visitors were moved out of the location -- very


quick in establishing a cordon. They seem to have good control very


quickly. Is a security expert, you were there on business, which is


rather ironic given what happened, why is this being described as the


new normal, vehicles driving into crowds? Lots of people use the term


low-tech, I think that gives too much sophistication to something


which we can fundamentally all access, a vehicle. In every city


centre, unless they start banning wholesale vehicles being able to


access, we will always face this risk. The problem is the camouflage


of a vehicle being used as a delivery device for an attack will


only be determined at the last minute when it starts to strike


members of the public. In terms of what you can do in these situations,


many people are abroad in tourist hotspots at the moment, have you any


tips? Is lots of people will no doubt assess, be aware of your


surroundings, the people in your surroundings, try to establish as


much as you can in your gut as to how you feel. And stop looking at


your mobile phone? Absolutely. You are not giving yourself a chance to


detect the problem before it happens. The second thing is to look


for points of escape, if you are walking down the boulevard, the cup


the side streets, shops, restaurants, if you needed to take


over quickly, where would you do that? If they are not available,


street furniture like parked cars or a roll of motorcycles. It might not


be the most robust coverage but at least it is some level of coverage.


As a family, with your partner or children, try to have an emergency


plan. If you get separated, where do you regroup? Back at the hotel or


somewhere else? Would you stop going to tourist hotspots? Not at all, all


that has happened in Barcelona is to reiterate that there is no set your


location across Europe exempt from these threats. Thank you very much,


Will. Every job should be opened


to part-time working according to the Equality


and Human Rights Commission. The agency claims such


measures would help reduce as well as address the pay


differences affecting ethnic minorities and the disabled


across all industries in the UK. Part-time hours, job sharing


and other flexible working schemes could help reduce the motherhood


penalty that many women face after having children,


the commission says. But MP Philip Davies,


a member of the Commons women and equalities committee,


called the proposals left-wing claptrap and


nanny state nonsense. So should employers


be more flexible? Or would such changes make it


unfeasible to run a business? Joining me now are Stefan Stern,


who writes about management, and Christopher Snowden


from the Institute And still


with us are the journalist and writer Kieran Yates


and broadcaster and businesswoman Stefan, starting with you, some


business leaders have said implementing these plans would be


impossible. Would they be bad for business? I think we all want


flexibility. Bosses have been telling us about the flexible labour


force they need but that has to go to microwaves. Businesses are losing


out on the talents and abilities of all sort of people who cannot get


the hours that they want or need which suits the demands of their


life, whether part-time working, term time working, certain times of


the year they do not want to work. We are underperforming as a country,


low productivity, lower wages, frustration about the economic


circumstances. When something is not working, we need more flexibility so


more of us can give our best at work. Michelle, you are a


businesswoman, with these proposals help women into higher paid and


high-ranking jobs? About there is a difference between part-time and


flexible working, they are slightly different. To say that all jobs


regardless of sector or responsibilities and workload can be


offered with flexible working is just not practical in many work


situations, it is just not. If you offer every potential employee


flexible working, for example if I say I do not want to work on a


Friday, if I had to hire a replacement for a Friday and he or


she says they don't want to do Fridays either, do I get a third or


fourth person? It is just not doable for all jobs to be flexible and/ or


part-time, I don't believe. Kieran? We need to completely change the way


we talk and flexible working hours. There are a couple of things at


play, the gig economy and the high numbers of self-employed people have


really changed the face of the British workforce. More women are


taking up an increased role in the labour market and a bigger share of


division and domestic in the house means that women had to start


galvanising this campaign towards equal pay. I think that there are a


couple of things to discuss and I do not think that demonising women for


needing flexible hours for whatever reason is the way to go. Kieran


talked about the gender pay gap, Christopher, how big an issue is it?


It is tremendously misrepresented. It exists, but not for the reasons


many people assume. It is not endemic sexism in the workplace. As


is explained every year, it is three things, one women are much more


likely to be in part-time work, which is generally paid less by the


hour, they tend on average to go towards slightly less well paying


occupations, things like childcare rather than engineering, for


example, and... I forgot what the... The gender pay gap, often we talk


about it with the same job? A woman doing the same job as a man? That


ruins your argument. That has been a legal for 42 years. But there is a


gender pay gap. On average, because more women are in part-time jobs and


a gender pay gap. On average, because more women are in part-time


jobs and in lower paid professions. If you look at like-for-like,


comparing a female engineer with a male one, they had to be paid the


same. If they were not, the courts would be overrun. It is the mistake


of looking at averages when you need to look at individuals. It comes


down to choices. The third one that I have remembered as bringing up


families. If you are going to take several years out of the labour


market you will obviously be paid less when you return to it, so these


are down to choices. It depends on the context in which these


apparently free choices are being made. If you look at the


professional services, accountants and lawyers, at graduate level,


there are as many women and men, but further up the chain the women have


gone. Maybe because they have had families. But it is Beverly possible


to have families and go to work. -- perfectly possible. Maybe we are


putting pressure on women to go to work and not bring up their


children. Of course but there is research that shows that women would


cut their hours by half as much if they had genuine flexibility. From


an economic point of view this is a waste of potential and talent. You


are creating insecure workers. Women are insecure workers because they


are not represented. Now we have an interesting guest on this.


I'm joined by Danielle Ayers, a solicitor specialising


in pregnancy, maternity and sex discrimination, who


advises both employers and employees in these areas.


Good morning. Have we still got a great deal of discrimination for


women? Have you seen stories of late that you couldn't quite believe?


Unfortunately, yes. You think in this day and age that employers


would know what they have got to do in these situations and they would


be up to date on the law, and they would not fall foul of these rules


and regulations, but unfortunately it seems to be becoming more


blatant. One of the main examples I can give you is equal pay. Women are


being paid less to do the same job as men. That is different to looking


at the gender pay gap, which is taking an average of your female


workers and your mail workers and providing an average of their wages.


Equal pay is looking at men and women doing the same job, where


there can be no argument that women should not be paid the same. Why is


it happening? It is down to employers not knowing what they


should be doing in these situations. There was a report by the equality


and human rights commission last year which said that more needs to


be done to support employers. More needs to be done to give them the


knowledge that they need to make sure that their employees are


supported and doing the right things. What knowledge do they need?


The law is the law, isn't it? Why is it happening? You would think so. I


think employers have become more bolshy overtime and a lot has gone


in their favour. Just a couple of weeks ago, the employment tribunal


fees have been scrapped, which is a great thing, but a lot of things


have happened. ACAS conciliation has been brought in, unfair dismissal,


you can't bring an unfair dismissal complaint unless you have been


employed for two years. They are becoming more bolshy in making


decisions around staff. They have rights on their side. This idea that


everybody should be offered flexible working, surely you can see the


issue with that for buses? It is hardly workable for all companies.


No, I don't think it is and I agree with those in the studio saying that


but that is not what we are asking for here. I am asking that if you


make an application that there is a sensible and informed discussion


between the parties to see whether or not there is a workable solution


for both. There cannot be a case where it is costing an employer so


much just to put flexible working in place for an employee, however in


the vast majority of cases there is a solution for both parties. Thank


you for that. We have lots of responses here. Thank you. Mavis


says that equality sounds fine on paper but so does communism.


Different people work at different rates and some work better than


others. Should they all get the same money? And Andrew says that all work


should be opened up to allow part-time positions and people


should be allowed to decide how many hours they are happy working. It has


big benefits for the employer as well. That sounds nice! Now,


Danielle Croce about businesses becoming bolshy. You have mentioned


that women have become insecure. Yes, women are an increasingly


insecure workforce because they are aware of discrimination. The gender


pay gap, the same money for the same job, that is clear evidence of


discrimination. British African women and Bangladeshi and Pakistani


women are disproportionately affected. This is something that


does exist and it is happening and we need to talk about it.


Christopher says it doesn't exist. It exists but not for those reasons.


The Office for National Statistics looked at this again this year and


it said for the three reasons that I gave before the full explanation of


it. There might be sexism here and there and that is why we have got


the courts to look into these things. Sometimes it might be sexism


against men, you don't know. These things are going to court on the


occasions that they happen. It does not explain the 10% pay gap, which


is just an average. It tells you nothing whatsoever. Likeable


working, it is incredibly inefficient actually. It might be


all right on a factory line or something but in most jobs doesn't


work. And most people don't want part-time work. There are always


more people who want full-time work you are working part-time currently


than the other way round. Flexible working is inefficient? That


management is inefficient and bosses who don't listen to their workforce


are inefficient. -- bad management is inefficient. Not giving employees


the chance to be flexible is inefficient. That explains chronic


low productivity in this country. You couldn't work flexibly because


then you couldn't be on this show. It works in some jobs and not


others. That is right. Any NHS, they work long shift that we need them to


be there and it has got to be managed. This is part of the job of


being a good manager, using people properly. It is down to the


managers? I think this conversation, this report calling for flexibility,


it is just think tanks sitting in a corner somewhere dreaming up things


to be more politically correct, to create equality, where actually it


is not realistic in the real world, in the world of business for


example, as one sector, you cannot turn around to all employers and say


that all jobs need to be flexible and part-time. I want to touch on


what Chris is saying. I agree with so much of what you are saying about


the gender pay gap. You are talking about ladies feeling discriminated


against in the workplace. I don't feel discriminated against in the


workplace. I believe in myself and my abilities and I will negotiate


hard. We need to stop saying to women that if you go into the world


of work that you will be automatically earning 80p to the


pound compared to men. Shouldn't we highlight a problem? That statistic,


it is a headline figure which takes all the men and women in this room


and says she earns 80p and he earns ?1 and now we have got a problem.


You can only compared pay and discuss whether it is fair when you


take two people doing the same job with the same experience. So there


is no gender pay gap problem? I don't feel that taking the headline


figure and saying that women own 80p and men ?1 is helpful. An equal pay


is illegal. Yes I know, is there gender pay gap problem? Not in the


way you're trying to describe with that headline figure, no. Thank you


very much. A recent University of Oxford


study concluded that artifical intelligence, or AI,


will be better than humans at all tasks within 45 years,


and many people, including Stephen Hawking, believe humans


will be in trouble in the future if our ambitions don't match


with those of machines. Now two tech titans are engaged


in a public disagreement about AI. Billionaires Elon Musk


and Mark Zuckerberg have differing opinions of the future possibility


of machines that can Tesla and SpaceX founder


Musk has been warning A few days ago he tweeted "If you're


not concerned about AI Facebook's Zuckerberg thinks


it's all fear-mongering. Responding to Musk's


warnings he said, "I think and in some ways I actually think


it is pretty irresponsible". To explore the issue further,


we sent Samanthi Flanagan Whether we realise it or not, robots


and artificial intelligence are becoming more and more part of our


everyday lives. I am here to meet the curator of the robots


exhibition, Ben Russell, who introduced me to a rather theatrical


robot. This is Robo thespian, built by a UK company. He is quite


remarkable. They decided to build a robot actor. His movements are


naturalistic and characterful and the expression, on his face, a


wonderful thing. Surely a robot couldn't replace the human actor.


They are not capable of emotions. You can programme stuff in. Whether


or not he is a motoring is the question. It is following a piece of


code, effectively. They can't improvise. They find it difficult!


Is it something you are working towards? At the moment they are very


good at doing a carefully defined job in a very specific way


repeatedly, but not acting in the human environment of flexibility.


Now a robot worker called Baxter who with no programming can teach a


tough new tasks and is designed to work alongside humans. It takes bits


of human nonverbal behaviour. If it moves its arm, it looks at where its


arm is going. It looks at an obstacle, if rounds. So much of


human conversation is not verbal and it is these physical cues that we


picked up on and so it is very smart in this respect. Like a young child,


Baxter learns to pick up the objects through trial and error, improving


with each attempt. There are 3000 Baxters out there. They all learn


and upload that information centrally. If one object picks it up


successfully, it uploads that information and in theory all the


other robot should be able to pick up the same object. Sharing


information between machines is very important, machine learning. Do you


think we need to monitor the development of AI? Absolutely.


Everybody concentrates on the big red thing physically doing things,


the robot, but there is a lot of software behind-the-scenes that we


don't think about and that is the important thing. We are taking our


eye off the ball we are thinking about the robot. As complex as


Baxter is, he doesn't look very human but this robot is uncannily


lifelike and has found work as a newsreader. How humanlike do you


want your robots to be? There is something called the uncanny valley.


You build a machine and it gets a bit lifelike and we are happy with


that. As soon as it is too lifelike, we get weird associations with


corpses and other stuff, and people back away, and that is uncanny


valley where robots plummet. What if we don't monitor the development of


AI? In the long term there is existential risk of creating a being


that is more intelligent than us. Generally, how does that


intelligence work in a physical form? That is very comeback to the


more mundane things which can trip is over. How do they interact with


the world that we take entirely for granted and they find very


difficult? That is a challenge. AI is a very different thing. I am


going to argue that she will not replace me as a presenter and I will


stick to that! Time will tell. Samanthi Flanagan visiting


an exhibition which runs Samanthi showed some concern


about her job being taken by robots, So over to our future overlord


Sanbot with the question. Should you be worried


about the rise of robots? I don't think so,


but what do you think? To answer that question,


I'm now joined by Luke Robert Mason,


a science commentator, Michelle Hanson,


a journalist and author, Kriti Sharma, vice


president of AI at Sage, and Oliver Moody, science


correspondent for The Times. Michelle, you have written about


your concerns over the rise of artificial intelligence. What


worries you the most? I am worried about this taking jobs, as she


suggested. It has already taken over shop assistants. You can't go into


Boots and talk to anybody. You have people standing around like odd


socks with no job, just showing people how to use machines. All


right, if they are going to take over thousands of jobs and people


will be unemployed and people are going to get a basic wage, I bet it


will be measly, not generous or luxurious. There are thousands of


people out of work sitting at home with nothing to do. I expect there


will be social unrest then, don't you? But robots are there to help


us. Many people in history have worried about the advancement of


technology. You're just like them, aren't you? No, it is much worse and


out of hand now. The genie is out of the bottle. We have got to use them


but we have got to control them. If you imagine it will be benign forces


in charge of these robots, OK, but it won't be. It will be greedy


people wanting to make lots of money. We are not a benign species


and it is very risky. It seems dangerous building machines


which will outsmart us and take our jobs? He is talking about super


intelligent AI in the image and likeness of us as humans. Where a


lot of the concern comes from Arendse per intelligent AI is that


we are equating to human intelligence. We see intelligence is


what makes us as humans the paragon of animals, but we have realised


that humans do not necessarily always do the best thing for


ourselves. Intelligence exists on a spectrum and if you look at where we


existed here and chickens down here and dogs here, if we have something


more intelligent than as we worry that we might be treated like the


apes, if we take seriously the notion that we are an evolved


version... That is worrying? Considering how humans are


destroying the environment of animals and other entities. They


would destroy us? We are concerned we will put the sorts of values that


we have whereby humans have caused so much trauma and harm, we will


translate some of that to our artificially intelligent machines.


Are you worried? A I am to a degree, but I don't think we need to be as


worried as some of us may code. Because it will not affect you, it


will affect your grandchildren. Partially because I do not think it


will happen. Will it happen? How club are these machines? Is who


works in AI everyday we are quite far from machines taking over the


world, but AI is already everywhere in our daily lives. If you have ever


used Google search under prompts the next few words, it ranks the results


based on what you see at the top, all you would talk to Siri, that is


AI. It is not have to be a robot taking over the world, thank you to


Hollywood for that image! We are creating AI good at certain


specialised tax, it is doing a good job at augmenting and supporting


humans. We need to design AI correctly. It is like any other


industrial Revolution but the differences this time AI learns on


its own. It is the job of the creators of AI as well as the humans


teaching AI or talking to it to do it right. Oliver, is it worrying


that we are making something that will be more clever than us? They


will never have the same ability to generate emotion, art or music, so


shouldn't we say we will always be better than them? Super intelligence


is a bit like the Apocalypse of computing. It has been predicted so


many times, in 1960 's and academic predicted it would happen within a


generation. I think there are much bigger reasons to be worried about


the impact AI is having a society now. There is a common misconception


that AI is a magical process by which computers can make


superhumanly perfect decisions about the world. That raises a serious


enough moral question when it works, but what is worse is that it often


does not and you are taking limited information about what people have


done in the past and using it to make decisions about who gets a


mortgage, who will reoffend when they leave prison? You are doing it


very badly and it is a recipe for biased and Abhijit decisions that


the computers cannot even explain. Many applications of AI are computer


says no on steroids. I would love to say that Emma is talking to a robot


but I do not think a robot would be able to deal with your difficult


questions. I'm joined now by Noel Sharkey


a professor of robotics And a real humanoids, I am told. We


want to talk about jobs, lots of messages coming in, when will a


robot take our jobs? Do you see that any time soon? It has already


happened for some time, it is just the number of jobs they take. There


is a lot of talk that perhaps there will be new jobs, and there


certainly will be, but I fear that the new jobs will not be as many as


we currently have, we will see a big job reduction, particularly in the


service industry, making burgers, driving trucks and cars, taxis,


those kinds of things will go first. AI is sweeping through many areas


and it is difficult to really predict the future because there are


new laws coming out in Europe and in the UK, I believe, where we are


giving too many decisions to AI programmes. People are now looking


at the idea that if these decisions impact on people they should be


transparent and give a good explanation. That is difficult when


you have machine learning because you are left with big matrices of


numbers. We might see many of those things become a. On to emotion and


nuance, when will we get to a point where robots and artificial


intelligence develops that side of things? I can't see it myself. It


might turn out that you need an organic body to feel emotions, I


don't know nobody knows. We also chemical machine as well as a


metaphor we have for our brains as computers, but they are quite


chemical in origin and we might be able to simulate emotions, which we


can do pretty well, we can make a robot smile and frowned, we can get


them to perceive emotions in a sense that they can classify whether we


are happy or sad, but getting them to understand sadness, a child


crying, did it drop its lollipop down the toilet or did its mother


just die? They are not good at subtle contextual stuff. As far as


feeling emotions we are nowhere with that, we do not understand that.


Thank you for painting a picture and doing a very good robot impression.


One viewer says robots will only be as bad as we make them, without


making them in our own image and our own reflection is frightening. If we


give them our intellect, power and inhumanity they will be an adversary


to humanity. Another person says we afraid of something better than us?


Why not say, yes, they can do better than us. Another person says we


should appreciate the rise of robots, solving problems for the


future and automating more processors. Michael says we should


only be afraid of the people behind the robots. We should be very afraid


of them. Michelle, we are talking about robots being the answer to the


social care crisis, they could help to look after the elderly, people


with dementia? Surely even you can see that is good? That really


frightens me because I am so old. The one in Japan, 24 fingered robot


that washes your hair, I do not want that. We do not have enough people


to do that. Get more people, pay them, sort out social care and stop


wasting money McGraw robots. Kriti, a highly respected professor at


Southampton University says it is not artificial intelligence that


worries me, it is human stupidity. How far do you agree? We heard that


from the e-mails? Humans are interacting with robots and


surprisingly they are asking them out on dates, robots are trying to


be as human as they can be. It is about designing the right solutions


for the right problems. Lots of work needs to be done with education,


health care, transportation, AI can help. Rather than focusing on the


interactions that are stupid, we need to focus on problems to be


sold. Can it solve our problems? That is less of an issue. What Noel


Sharkey is talking about is key. We already seeing artificial entities


with agency of the human beings, they are called artificial persons,


otherwise known as corporations, we give them a degree of agency to


cause a great deal of harm. This is not science fiction, it is already


yet. Ten seconds, is it a good thing? Is what? AI. It has the


potential to do enormous good, but now is the time to focus on the


social problems that may create. In the future I will have this debate


with ball robots. Or cyborgs. Yes. Thank you.


A celebration of the Hindu God Krishna was marked this week.


He is depicted in many ways, from an innocent child,


a conquering hero, a lover, a cattle herder and a musician.


Mehreen Baig went to Watford to join thousands of devotees and join


I am at their home to the International successes --


International Society For Krishna Consciousness,, better known as the


Hare Krishna movement, when the house and the grounds were gifted to


them by George Harrison. The man, just outside Watford, is one of the


UK's most popular Hindu pilgrimage sites, and I am here for the biggest


event of the year. More than 50,000 pilgrims are expected here over the


course of two days to celebrate Janmashtami. This man has been a


devotee of Krishna for 15 years. It is one of the most wonderful and joy


you should occasions in our calendars, Sri Krishna Janmashtami,


the birthday of Krishna, who we regard as supreme God. Krishna has


many manifestations over the ages but the fountain had the source of


all incarnations, it is said to be Krishna.


Krishna is one of the most popular Hindu gods, so Hindus from many


traditions gathered to mark his birthday. The spiritual focus of the


day is to offer a prayer to Krishna in the temple. I can't wait to see


inside. It is a very long queue. I can hear


chanting, music. I have seen things like this in the


Bollywood movies we watch at home, but never in real life. It is an


incredible sights to see devotees making their offerings. Food is at


the heart of the celebrations, everyone who attends the festival


gets a free meal, and all the food is vegetarian. This woman, who hosts


a vegetarian cooking demonstration, explains why. From the spiritual


perspective, Krishna says if one offers me with love and devotion a


leaf, a flower, fruit or water I will accept it. He said in the


Bhagavad-Gita that killing animals is not permitted. So we are


vegetarian. An army of volunteers work behind the scenes in the


kitchen, preparing over 50,000 plates of the free food offered to


pilgrims. After I have had a quick makeover, more of an explanation.


My mother will be very proud. I can smell is an amazing things around


me. Can you tell me what is going on? I can smell some amazing things.


We have been preparing for four weeks, the last four days have been


very intense, we have been chopping coriander and peppers. We offer the


food to Lord Krishna once it has been sanctified. Then we give it to


the pilgrims free of charge. What is the importance of feeding people?


When you go to temples, you get sanctified food. It is about being a


compassionate person. I am not a natural in the kitchen


but my helpers welcomes all the same. I can do that. This is not me


and my prime. -- my helper is a welcome to all the same.


As well as food and worship their all kinds of entertainment choose


from. When I spot a henna artist, I can't


resist getting my hand painted. I am a devotee of Krishna, so every year


for the last 17 years I have been doing mehndi for Krishna. In the


Scripture it says that a person who has any talent given to you by Lord


Krishna, you should offer that if you cannot festival time. This is


the reason why I do mehndi every year. We are spreading the message


of love, humility. Just give something to earth which God has


given you. All too soon it is time to go home, but I am not leaving


until I collect my plate. The best part of day! Thank you.


And that is a very special end to a very special day. For me personally,


this is a community I have barely had an inside too, so seeing what a


strong sense of community there is, people who have been volunteering


for weeks, coming after work to make sure everyone has a really great


time, that was particularly heart-warming.


That's all from us for this week.


Many thanks to all our guests and you at home


Emma will be carrying on the conversation online.


Yes, I'll be talking to Kriti Sharma about the future


Log on to facebook.com/bbcSundayMorningLive


In the meantime, from everyone here in the studio and the whole


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