Episode 9 Sunday Morning Live


Episode 9

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On today's programme: North Korea continues its missile face off

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Would military action against it be justified?

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He has said things that are horrific and with me he's not getting away

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with it. Justin Gatlin was back

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on the track last night, a week after he was booed

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by the London crowds. We ask - should there be more

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forgiveness in sport? And Dame Esther Rantzen recalls

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a lifetime of campaigning, That's Life, and the day she got

:00:38.:00:39.

on the wrong side of the law. I try and bury that moment, I never

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speak of it. I have just been arrested for handing out bat stew!

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All that coming up later, and Emma Barnett is here ready

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You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter -

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don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.

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Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.

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Or email us at '[email protected]'.

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However you choose to get in touch, please don't forget to include your

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name so I can get you involved in our discussions.

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Including whether the NHS should stop giving IVF to older women.

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-- should stop giving IVF fertility treatment completely.

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First, North Korea and the USA have spent this week trading threats.

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The regime of Kim Jong-un have forecast that this week

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they will fire missiles 2,000 miles into the sea near the American

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President Donald Trump has warned the North Koreans of fire and fury

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North Korea is best not make any more threats to the United States.

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They will be met with fire and fury, like the world has never seen.

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There's concern that the war of words could spark

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a real conflict with potentially devastating

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Washington is worried about the growing threat posed

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by a country which has long-range rockets and nuclear weapons.

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So, would military action against North Korea be justified?

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Joining us now are Charlie Wolf, an American commentator,

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Catherine Philp, diplomatic correspondent at The Times,

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Peter Felstead, the editor of Jane's Defence Weekly,

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and Bruce Kent from the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

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Charlie, wouldn't we all be feeling a lot safer this

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had avoided getting embroiled in this war of words?

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This started way before Donald Trump, when they have the drive to

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the inauguration, president Obama said he is going to be your biggest

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problem. It has been going on for four or five presidencies. No one

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wants to see hostilities but the threat is Kim Jong-un and the best

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way to prevent the threat is to use force or this threat of force. The

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credible threat of power or force is the best deterrent. Don't you think

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Kim Jong-un is sitting in his palace laughing because Donald Trump has

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taken the bait? No, this has been going on too long and you have to

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stand up to these people. Bruce, what do you make of that? I think it

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is off the wall. Donald Trump should be negotiating in good faith to get

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rid of nuclear weapons, he's done nothing of the sort. Why should he

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have them and not North Korea? But when you are dealing with a leader

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like Kim Jong-un, isn't military threat the only way you can stop him

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getting out of control? But then you have to implement your threat, which

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means devastation of the large part of the world. UN sanctions haven't

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worked before. 122 countries have signed up against nuclear weapons,

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why can't Trump join that? Peter, where are we with this? Bruce made

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the perfect point that many other countries, the west, USA, Russia,

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got huge amounts of nuclear weapons, why shouldn't North Korea? That's an

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interesting argument. I think we would have to look to a world where

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nuclear weapons are not part of the equation. We can look forward to

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technologies like ballistic missile defence as a counter to nuclear

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weapons but I think what's most dangerous about this particular

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situation is its proclivity to escalate very fast and I think

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that's where the danger is. A war of words is good for any of us but

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surely that is holding North Korea back from doing something that would

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be very dangerous. The problem with North Korea is we simply don't know

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what they are thinking. We can look at the Trump Administration and seek

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sensible people in the room to know what it's like to put men in battle.

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With North Korea we know absolutely nothing about what they are thinking

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and that's a key danger. Catherine, North Korea said it would fire

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missiles into the sea near Guam, what happens if they hit Guam?

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Surely we are very close to something very dangerous and that's

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because of North Korea. First of all we have to see whether they actually

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do it or not. President Trump threatened action against a threat.

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North Korea have made that threat and he hasn't followed through on

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his threat, this is the problem. When you throw around threats, you

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may feel compelled to follow through on them and that's where we get into

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dangerous territory. Don't throw around threats if you are not

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prepared to follow through on them, it's a basic rule of diplomacy and

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military strategy. This is why we see his generals taking a different

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line. I know of not one military man who thinks force will solve anything

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in this conflict. So my response to the question we opened with, is

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military force justified, I don't even get to justify it, I get to

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this is a terrible idea for which there is no strategic objectives.

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Nothing you can make happen by the use of military force that we would

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want to happen. But if a missile lands on Guam, surely you have to do

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something? You cannot speak to them because diplomacy doesn't work at

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that stage. We haven't seriously tried diplomacy recently with North

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Korea. There was a process under the Clinton Administration when their

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word direct talks and they haven't happened since so I'm not sure you

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have a choice. If North Korea have the ability to strike the US

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mainland with a nuclear weapon, I don't see the choice. They don't

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have it yet and we don't want them to have it. I think that ship has

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sailed. With me now is someone who has

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first hand experience Jihyun Park fled the country

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after her brother was beaten After a terrible ordeal at the hand

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of people traffickers, she finally arrived in this

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country in 2008. What do people in North Korea know

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of the world beyond it? I have read every column inch written about

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this, I follow diplomacy laws and often I cannot sleep at night. I am

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frightened about what should happen to the families who live in North

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Korea. President Trump has accused the Chinese bank of laundering money

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and ... I worry about these strong assumptions but we usually... I

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understand nowadays what accuracy is, it is information to North Korea

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dictators because members of the Kim family have always controlled the

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North Korean people and don't like North Korean people changing their

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mind. But this information changes the North Korean people and one day

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we stand up and... Let me ask you, do people in North Korea know that

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the country has nuclear weapons? What are they taught or told about

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them? The North Korean people not too much know about what happens

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nowadays outside the country and insight North Korea because there is

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only one TV and newspaper, and not describing other countries. So

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people heard about the Government, but nowadays many North Korean

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people complain about that. We cannot divide the USA army. Jihyun

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Park, thank you for giving us inside. So not much known on the

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ground about what is going on. These are real people, Charlie, who

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will be caught up in a war of words between two big egos. It is the

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commander-in-chief of the United States, not two big egos. But they

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are real people. Yes, and this is a prison, an open-air prison, North

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Korea. Besides that, we have a right and duty to protect our citizens. Is

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-- Trump is giving a consequence. We want to make peace with everybody.

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But as Catherine says, it is difficult once you go down the path

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to follow up with the threat. I just want to talk to Peter about actually

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how close are they to firing a nuclear weapon at Guam or anywhere

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else in the world. How close are North Korea to doing that? They have

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demonstrated capacity to conduct nuclear tests. They have

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demonstrated their capacity to fire intercontinental ballistic missiles.

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To what extent they can weaponised those missiles we are not entirely

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sure but the US defence and intelligence community has recently

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said they believe they do have that capacity. What are the options if

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they do? Troops on the ground? Are targeted attack by the USA?

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Militarily the USA said they do have the capacity to defend against a

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limited missile strike and that's probably what we are talking about

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here because I don't think they will have that many missiles that are

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long range and weaponised but the danger is escalation from that

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point. Let's find out what people are saying at home. Chris says we

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should be standing by America when it comes to North Korea and be

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prepared to destroy the regime and establish a working government for

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them. Elaine says I think Kim Jong-un is dangerous but has become

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more dangerous with Mr Trump in the White House continually baiting him.

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He's a rare outtake TV star who forgets he's dealing with real life.

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Robert says they are like pathetic schoolyard bullies. Paul chimed in

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and says why are they doing this when Nato exists for this reason. We

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shouldn't go in just because Trump and the US do. We all know Trump is

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talking big to help his abysmal poll numbers. I don't need to die in a

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war to help an ego driven man get over his multiple inadequacies, says

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Chris. In the past we have had an awful lot of words between North

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Korea and America and the rest of the world, but what's new here? The

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rhetoric isn't new, is it? It is from the American side. The North

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Korean rhetoric has sounded like this for years. We are used to that.

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It is profoundly destabilising when the commander-in-chief of the United

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States departs from the script quite so dramatically. Also, as we just

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heard, the intelligence assessments are new. North Korea is far further

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down the road than we believed it would be. We thought this moment

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wouldn't come for two or three years minimum so their capability is much

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more advanced. Because we have allowed it to get

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that way. We do not know what Kim Jong-un will do but to the same

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extent, we do not know what Donald Trump will do. In this instance, it

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is good. The Chinese are the ones who will say, the guy could do it,

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and it will be the incentive for them to say, it is time to talk to

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North Korea, you have to stop this. Is there a place for military

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action? Certainly not. Never? In some situations, maybe, but in this,

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certainly not. They are both risking national suicide, not protecting

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anything. Nuclear weapons now are five times as big as the ones that

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destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and we have thousands of them. Will

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China keep out of it? Will Russia? We are on the edge of catastrophe

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and to talk about protecting a country is ridiculous. We should

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have other ways of resolving the conflict. You have had the final

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say, thank you very much. Dame Esther Rantzen has

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always been a fighter. She founded the charity Childline

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to help vulnerable children and Silver Line to combat loneliness

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in older people. But it is as a television presenter

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that Esther made her name, most notably with a hugely

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successful TV programme which ran for more than 20 years and mixed

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hard-hitting journalism, moving personal stories and quirky

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humour - That's Life - which she recalled when Sean went

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to meet her. APPLAUSE

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Esther Rantzen, let us talk about That's Life, a huge success, getting

:15:51.:15:55.

figures of up to 22 million. It looked like a lot of fun to make.

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Was it? Yes, it was. That was our slogan, actually, on the Tuesday

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morning, when we were reading a fresh batch of letters that came in

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from viewers, the material came from the audience for That's Life. We

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must thank everyone who has sent us the pictures. In Middlesbrough,

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window magic... And Virginia Stevens in Enfield, sticks almost

:16:25.:16:30.

everything. What we would say is, wouldn't it be fun if...? And it was

:16:31.:16:37.

fun. But also very serious. We had very heart-rending stories at the

:16:38.:16:40.

centre of the programme. I would like to thank him for saving my

:16:41.:16:45.

life. If it had not been for this man, I would not be here. With us

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tonight, hello. I should tell you you are sitting next to Nicholas

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Winter. APPLAUSE

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You also got arrested during filming. Tell us about that. I try

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and bury that moment. I never speak of it. Not your proudest moment? I

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was arrested for handing out bat stew, not because they were worried

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about the bat but because the policeman decided I was obstructing

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the pavement. You are blocking the pavement. I don't care if you have

:17:31.:17:33.

something for the last ten years, if you do not move, will arrest you.

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You are rested. I have just been arrested for handing out bat stew.

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Can you tell our director I was not obstructing. It was the bat! It was

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very entertaining, of course, but it also was ground-breaking and I am

:17:55.:17:57.

thinking of Childline, you did pretty serious stuff you have

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touched on, talk to us about that, 30 years ago now. Absolutely. The

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launch of Childline is a night I will never ever forget. Hello,

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Childline, can I help you? 50,000 attempted calls when we opened the

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lines because we were giving an opportunity to children and indeed

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some adults too to talk about things they had never dared talk about

:18:29.:18:33.

before. And we were able to assure them that it was not therefore is --

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it was not their fault, the abuse should not be happening to them. It

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changed my life, obviously, but much more important than that, it changed

:18:45.:18:49.

the lives of more than 4 million children. Let us get onto Silver

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Line, there are similarities and big differences. With Silver Line,

:18:56.:19:00.

people left alone and lonely and ignored. What is the aim and what

:19:01.:19:06.

would you like to happen with Silver Line? What we want to do is make

:19:07.:19:10.

children understand that we care about them, but with that Silver

:19:11.:19:17.

Line, we want older people to understand we care about them. And

:19:18.:19:23.

when we piloted that Silver Line, one of our callers in the very early

:19:24.:19:29.

days said, when I put the phone down after I had called Silver Line, I

:19:30.:19:35.

feel like I have joined the human race. That makes me quite angry

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because our older people should always feel like they are valued

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members of the human race. In 2000, you lost your husband, Desmond

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Wilcox. Can you remember much of that time and how painful it was? I

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think anybody who has been through this sort of loss, we never really

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get over it. We never forget it. But we learn to cope with it, I think.

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If we are lucky, and I have got family and friends and work and all

:20:11.:20:17.

kinds of things which I rely upon, really, but nothing fills the gap.

:20:18.:20:22.

Is that the spark to get you to do that Silver Line? I found myself

:20:23.:20:26.

coming home to the flat and it was dark and empty and cold and there

:20:27.:20:31.

was no one to have a cup of tea with and talk about the day with and I

:20:32.:20:35.

did not like it. I am not a religious person, I am agnostic. My

:20:36.:20:40.

daughter is religious. I was rather appalled when I found myself saying,

:20:41.:20:45.

I think God wants you to move in with me. Fortunately, she laughed!

:20:46.:20:49.

You are sitting in your kitchen with your daughter, you are agnostic, she

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is religious, what religion is she? She is Jewish. You were brought up

:20:57.:21:04.

in a Jewish household, has that shaped your life? Yes, I feel very

:21:05.:21:10.

grateful because I know I was born in 1940 and if I had been born in a

:21:11.:21:14.

different country, I would not be sitting here today. My family would

:21:15.:21:20.

not have survived. At the difficult times in your life, has faith played

:21:21.:21:24.

any sort of role? I am agnostic, I am also a sceptic. I am thrilled for

:21:25.:21:31.

people for whom faith makes a difference. As I say, if I am wrong,

:21:32.:21:40.

if you are there, I apologise, I should have realised earlier. It is

:21:41.:21:46.

never too late! Finally, if there was a television programme about

:21:47.:21:48.

your life, what would you will sign off be? I am going to resist that's

:21:49.:21:57.

life, that was life, that is afterlife... That sounds morbid! You

:21:58.:22:04.

are making this programme... What would my sign off be? I'm afraid

:22:05.:22:09.

that is all we have time for. Thank you so much. Thank you. She is very

:22:10.:22:14.

keen to hear from anyone who has been helped by Childline.

:22:15.:22:17.

Contact her on [email protected]

:22:18.:22:18.

Still to come on Sunday Morning Live...

:22:19.:22:23.

The Archbishop of Canterbury travels to Uganda to highlight

:22:24.:22:30.

I am quite bowled over by the genuine level to which Uganda has

:22:31.:22:39.

accepted refugees which is the equivalent of us taking

:22:40.:22:51.

2.5-3,000,000. It was a golden time last night at the athletics

:22:52.:22:56.

championships with a stunning first place in the relay. But for Usain

:22:57.:23:00.

Bolt, it was a sad occasion as he pulled short with an injury. Last

:23:01.:23:10.

week Usain Bolt had further heartache when he was beaten by

:23:11.:23:15.

Justin Gatlin in the 100 metres final. Despite his success, Justin

:23:16.:23:22.

Gatlin was loudly booed because he has been banned twice over doping

:23:23.:23:26.

allegations in the second instance, serving a four year suspension. The

:23:27.:23:31.

medal ceremony was also low. His father described the crowd's

:23:32.:23:37.

reaction as disrespectful to the sport. Do athletes judged to have

:23:38.:23:42.

broken the rules deserve the cold shoulder?

:23:43.:23:44.

Should there be more forgiveness in sport?

:23:45.:23:45.

Joining us now are Mihir Bose, journalist and former

:23:46.:23:48.

Martha Kelner, chief sports reporter at the Guardian,

:23:49.:23:51.

Habir Singh, anti-doping team leader at London 2012.

:23:52.:23:58.

If an athlete who's done wrong, has served their punishment,

:23:59.:24:00.

I think it depends on the circumstances, but with Justin

:24:01.:24:08.

Gatlin, he has been found guilty of two doping offences now, the second

:24:09.:24:14.

was very serious, so I can understand the crowd taking out

:24:15.:24:17.

their frustration in the form of booing him. The only issue was the

:24:18.:24:22.

double standards from the crowd in that there are many people who have

:24:23.:24:26.

committed anti-doping offences competing at the London 2017 Games,

:24:27.:24:32.

so I think Justin Gatlin was taking the flat for the rest of the people

:24:33.:24:38.

who have committed offences. In life, if you do something wrong,

:24:39.:24:42.

very wrong, you go to prison, serve your time, there are no sanctions,

:24:43.:24:48.

people do not who you on the street. It is life, isn't it? I think that

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is true but sport has to be divorced from life. It is a job, isn't it? It

:24:53.:25:00.

is. But if you commit fraud in a financial job, it is unlikely your

:25:01.:25:03.

employer will invite you back, the same if you are a lawyer and you are

:25:04.:25:09.

correct, you will be disbarred. You are not banned? You are, on

:25:10.:25:13.

occasion. If you are Doctor, you do wrong, you are struck off the

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register. Sport is a privilege, not a God-given right. If you are

:25:21.:25:24.

abusing that privilege... OK, the crowd did not seem very forgiving.

:25:25.:25:30.

Usain Bolt seem to accept it. He applauded Justin Gatlin, shouldn't

:25:31.:25:35.

the crowd have been doing the same? I think they should have. I think it

:25:36.:25:42.

was wrong for the crowd to boo him. I agree sport is special but we

:25:43.:25:45.

should not forgive because forgiveness is part of life -- but

:25:46.:25:50.

we should forgive. Sport is magical. The two incident you showed were

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surprising, unexpected results, sport is the only place you can get

:25:56.:26:00.

unexpected results. Everything in life is predictable and the magic of

:26:01.:26:04.

sport means that people who follow it think that everybody is pure and

:26:05.:26:10.

wonderful and what they do is because they have worked for it.

:26:11.:26:14.

That is not right. If we do not forgive, we are missing out the

:26:15.:26:17.

redemptive part of sport. Surely sport is about people coming back

:26:18.:26:21.

and winning when you did not think they could. You test athletes, is it

:26:22.:26:28.

time to stop forgiving and bring in much harsher punishments? I think

:26:29.:26:33.

there is this narrative about athletes and particularly the Justin

:26:34.:26:38.

Gatlin case, but I think the intricacies are not always

:26:39.:26:42.

understood. The first case, the United States anti-doping agency

:26:43.:26:46.

said there was no intent to cheat and he did not cheat but the

:26:47.:26:49.

international association for athletics Federation said that

:26:50.:26:53.

because he tested positive, he has to be banned. We do not get that

:26:54.:26:58.

part of the story. The second time he tested positive, he had 34 tests

:26:59.:27:03.

during that event prior to the positive test and he was negative.

:27:04.:27:07.

We do not hear that. We just hear, he tested positive twice, he beat

:27:08.:27:14.

our hero, Usain Bolt, so the public opinion is he is the bad guy. The

:27:15.:27:19.

narrative is we think, they have done something wrong. You are on the

:27:20.:27:22.

coal face and you are saying, half the time, they do not mean to break

:27:23.:27:27.

the rules. We have to look at it from the wider perspective which is

:27:28.:27:32.

they are human beings, their livelihood, and the bigger issues,

:27:33.:27:38.

why are athletes doping but I'm not forgiving athletes is not addressing

:27:39.:27:44.

it. I think it is very rarely you get an athlete who holds up their

:27:45.:27:48.

hands and says, yes, I cheated intentionally. When was the last

:27:49.:27:51.

time there was an Olympic champion who had not failed a drugs test who

:27:52.:27:56.

said, actually, I have deceived you, I have been doping? It does not

:27:57.:27:58.

happen. Not in human nature. Emma, you've got

:27:59.:28:00.

a guest on this one. With me now is the former javelin

:28:01.:28:02.

athlete Goldie Sayers, who finished fourth

:28:03.:28:04.

at the Beijing Olympics in 2008. She's waiting to hear if she will be

:28:05.:28:07.

upgraded to bronze after one of the Russian athletes in that

:28:08.:28:10.

competition was found to have taken The athlete is appealing

:28:11.:28:13.

the decision. So, whilst the legal

:28:14.:28:16.

challenge is under way, we don't want to get

:28:17.:28:18.

into the details of that case but when you were competing,

:28:19.:28:20.

what impact did the issue of athletes taking banned

:28:21.:28:23.

substances have on you? As an athlete at the time, you have

:28:24.:28:39.

to remain naive, otherwise it probably sends you a bit mad. You

:28:40.:28:44.

have no physical evidence someone is cheating, but having found out an

:28:45.:28:49.

athlete who finished ahead of me in the Olympic Games perhaps has been

:28:50.:28:54.

doping, it is... It does tarnish your career somewhat. The biggest

:28:55.:28:58.

thing it robs you of is knowing how good you were at the time and all

:28:59.:29:03.

the self-confidence and also financial reward that comes with

:29:04.:29:06.

that. You are pushing yourself harder while this is going on, you

:29:07.:29:11.

can risk greater injury because you are competing maybe against

:29:12.:29:14.

standards that are not natural? Exactly. When you have just missed

:29:15.:29:20.

out on a medal, you are making up a gap in performance and it is an

:29:21.:29:25.

imaginary gap so you end up pushing yourself, getting injured, that is

:29:26.:29:29.

what happened to me the year after, 2009, and has happen to a lot of

:29:30.:29:34.

other clean athletes. You end up getting injured and that has a big

:29:35.:29:37.

impact on your performance. It is not just missing out on the medal,

:29:38.:29:42.

it is also what impact that has on the rest of your career physically

:29:43.:29:44.

but also mentally. Do you think there should be tougher

:29:45.:29:55.

penalties for the athletes and also for the people around them? I think

:29:56.:29:59.

that's something we are not talking about a lot, it is who is pushing

:30:00.:30:05.

performance and enhancing drugs onto the athletes. I think harsher

:30:06.:30:09.

penalties have to be put in place for the coaches around the athletes

:30:10.:30:17.

who make them think it is OK to cheat. We are doing a lot more in

:30:18.:30:21.

sport to highlight the doping issue and getting to grips with testing

:30:22.:30:25.

more athletes and punishing them appropriately. I do think it is a

:30:26.:30:30.

grey area in that some athletes who test positively have inadvertently

:30:31.:30:33.

taken a banned substance but I think now we have got this second strike

:30:34.:30:39.

and URL policy, and I think that is right.

:30:40.:30:43.

I'll be in danger of letting athletes like Goldie down because we

:30:44.:30:49.

are not punishing people who test positive for banned substances

:30:50.:30:54.

enough? I don't think anyone is it against introducing sanctions,

:30:55.:30:58.

whether it is monetary or legal, to athletes. We are isolating sport and

:30:59.:31:03.

forgetting about the humanistic aspect. We are humans and can make

:31:04.:31:08.

mistakes and we would want a fair trial and to demonstrate intent

:31:09.:31:14.

before we label somebody. When we say athletes rarely admit to

:31:15.:31:19.

cheating or doping offences, I agree with that, but like anyone else we

:31:20.:31:24.

would want to be innocent until proven guilty entities that grey

:31:25.:31:29.

area. Can I turn away from drugs and talk more about sport generally.

:31:30.:31:38.

Mihir, all sportsmen and women are trying to get the edge, should we be

:31:39.:31:44.

stricter in that area? There is a difference between gamesmanship and

:31:45.:31:48.

cheating. In cricket ball tries to hide the ball from the batsmen in

:31:49.:31:53.

order to deceive him over whether the ball will swing. Is it cheating

:31:54.:31:58.

or clever play? You won't see the ball until the last minute so you

:31:59.:32:05.

won't know. That is good play, if you like, clever play. Like diving

:32:06.:32:12.

in football? If they used television replay they could work out the

:32:13.:32:16.

diving but they have gone in for retrospective punishment which means

:32:17.:32:19.

you punish the player and penalise the team that has suffered at the

:32:20.:32:23.

hands of the player. This is where I think sport has got into a model.

:32:24.:32:27.

You should punish the player straightaway so that the team, the

:32:28.:32:32.

player is part of the team, and we have this in the World Cup. The team

:32:33.:32:37.

is punished straightaway, not later on. What you want to see in sport is

:32:38.:32:41.

immediate results and spectators want to see it is fair. It's the

:32:42.:32:46.

first time I've seen you in agreement. You're nodding, Martha? I

:32:47.:32:54.

do agree with football and the punishment taking place immediately,

:32:55.:32:57.

but that level of offence this very different from something that alters

:32:58.:33:01.

the trajectory of someone else's career. You see it more in athletics

:33:02.:33:06.

than any other sport but when you are taking away someone's

:33:07.:33:09.

opportunities in the future you are also having a financial effect on

:33:10.:33:13.

their lives. You steal not only that moment on the podium but also the

:33:14.:33:17.

commercial opportunities they have. I don't think diving in football is

:33:18.:33:24.

comparable to doping or... But Martha, we also have a whole team

:33:25.:33:28.

behind the athletes and we don't do enough to look at what this team is.

:33:29.:33:35.

Advisers, managers, what are they doing? Let's find out what social

:33:36.:33:38.

media is saying. Peter says once is an error of

:33:39.:33:44.

judgment if your doping, twice is criminal intent. Francis says sport

:33:45.:33:48.

should always be about fair play and respect to your opponent, drug users

:33:49.:33:52.

show neither quality and should be dismissed from their sport for life.

:33:53.:33:59.

Emily says I explained to my eight-year-old son why everyone was

:34:00.:34:02.

booing Justin Gatlin and he said if I cheat at my games are not allowed

:34:03.:34:05.

to play, why should he be allowed? Out of the mouths of babes. Someone

:34:06.:34:18.

else says I would like to see two versions of the games, one clean and

:34:19.:34:22.

one with performance enhancing drugs.

:34:23.:34:26.

We will have to discuss that another time because we are out of time.

:34:27.:34:29.

Thank you very much indeed. The Archbishop of Canterbury has

:34:30.:34:31.

just returned from a trip to Africa Justin Welby joined forces

:34:32.:34:34.

with the Archbishop of Uganda, Stanley Ntagali, to highlight

:34:35.:34:38.

the plight of thousands of refugees who have fled the civil war

:34:39.:34:40.

in neighbouring South Sudan. Martin Bashir, the BBC's religious

:34:41.:34:43.

affairs correspondent, joined the two archbishops

:34:44.:34:45.

on their humanitarian journey. Cruising above the lush plains of

:34:46.:34:58.

east Africa, the archbishops of Canterbury and Uganda are on a

:34:59.:35:02.

mission to refugees who fled tribal conflict in South Sudan. Despite

:35:03.:35:11.

desperate circumstances, they offer the warmest of welcomes. More than

:35:12.:35:20.

900,000 people have rushed across the border into northern Uganda over

:35:21.:35:26.

the last five years. As the two main tribes have taken sides with either

:35:27.:35:31.

the current or previous presidents. I am really quite bowled over by the

:35:32.:35:37.

genuine level to which Uganda has accepted a volume of refugees which

:35:38.:35:45.

proportionate to their population is the equivalent of us taking 2.5

:35:46.:35:54.

million. This town houses 18,000 refugees. Can I come in? Thank you.

:35:55.:36:07.

Is it watertight when it rains? It is full of holes and sometimes they

:36:08.:36:12.

leak. So you get food from the United Nations? Yes. They only get

:36:13.:36:21.

that food and if it is not there, it is not there. This is a couple who

:36:22.:36:26.

from one moment to the next grab what you can and Rome and didn't

:36:27.:36:32.

tell us the horrendous things they saw. But others did.

:36:33.:36:46.

The United Nations is providing the bulk of support for food and

:36:47.:36:51.

shelter, but the Ugandan church is also involved. We pray for the

:36:52.:36:58.

refugees and for southern Sudan to resolve the conflict. We buy food,

:36:59.:37:06.

we give the children and the mothers because the majority of refugees are

:37:07.:37:12.

children and mothers. And educating these children is one of the camp's

:37:13.:37:17.

biggest challenges. How many children? 784. In one of the brief

:37:18.:37:31.

talks you gave, you said God especially loves refugees. Jesus was

:37:32.:37:37.

himself a refugee so he understands what it is like to have run from

:37:38.:37:44.

your house, suddenly, and find yourself in a strange land.

:37:45.:37:48.

One of the most striking things about the culture here is that in

:37:49.:37:53.

all our inadequacy of relationships, relating to the people who are

:37:54.:37:57.

suffering, there is this response which you will have heard to hope

:37:58.:38:03.

and faith in Jesus Christ because that is their experience. The UN

:38:04.:38:14.

continues to encourage the warring factions to negotiate peace but as

:38:15.:38:18.

yet there is little sign of an agreement.

:38:19.:38:22.

You have worked in Africa in the secular business of the oil

:38:23.:38:26.

industry, you have travelled extensively, you have taught, you

:38:27.:38:29.

now come as the Archbishop of Canterbury. Do you feel optimistic

:38:30.:38:36.

about the future of this continent or is there a sense of pessimism?

:38:37.:38:41.

When I look at Africa, I am full of hope. Let's not be hypocritical as

:38:42.:38:48.

Europeans. Within our lifetime, and many people still around, we killed

:38:49.:38:54.

20 million of each other, and look where Europe is now. We are not in a

:38:55.:38:59.

position to lecture other people on civilisation. We are in a position

:39:00.:39:07.

humbling, and with love and respect to help Africa in its great movement

:39:08.:39:17.

forward. The Archbishop prepares to leave Uganda, inspired by its

:39:18.:39:21.

response in welcoming almost 1 million people. This is in a poor

:39:22.:39:26.

country, led by the president who says we don't use the word refugee,

:39:27.:39:36.

these are fellow human beings, fellow Africans.

:39:37.:39:38.

The Archbishop of Canterbury with refugees in Uganda.

:39:39.:39:40.

Figures out this week reveal that access to IVF fertility treatment

:39:41.:39:44.

The research by Fertility Network UK says that some health authorities

:39:45.:39:48.

have stopped offering the three cycles of treatment,

:39:49.:39:50.

And three NHS providers are considering restricting IVF

:39:51.:39:55.

The technique fertilises eggs outside the womb and then

:39:56.:40:02.

So, in a time when the NHS is struggling for cash,

:40:03.:40:06.

Joining the panel now are Serena Bergman,

:40:07.:40:16.

a feminist journalist, Geeta Nargund, a fertility

:40:17.:40:19.

expert, Richard Clothier, who is a former fertility patient,

:40:20.:40:21.

and Caroline Farrow, a Catholic commentator.

:40:22.:40:28.

Geeta, in a time of cutbacks and shortages the NHS

:40:29.:40:31.

is struggling to meet all the demands placed on it.

:40:32.:40:33.

Is IVF a luxury we can no longer afford?

:40:34.:40:38.

IVF is not a luxury. Infertility is a disease, and it needs treatment

:40:39.:40:50.

like any other medical condition. Secondly, as regards the funding,

:40:51.:40:53.

it's not a problem. There is enough money in the NHS at the moment

:40:54.:40:59.

within the existing budget to fund IVF. It is how it is being spent.

:41:00.:41:04.

The question is the problem is how it's being spent and how it's being

:41:05.:41:10.

managed. Right now IVF is not considered as a national Health

:41:11.:41:15.

Service, as we all know it is a postcode lottery with regional

:41:16.:41:18.

variations. One authority paying 2500, another one a different amount

:41:19.:41:25.

and it is unacceptable. It is creating inequality in our society.

:41:26.:41:30.

The NHS does many things. One of the things it does save lives, one of

:41:31.:41:35.

the things it does is IVF. Many people would say the IVF is

:41:36.:41:39.

struggling for cash, if something is to go what comes first, saving lives

:41:40.:41:47.

or IVF? Creating life is equally important. There is a bigger picture

:41:48.:41:51.

here, fertility is not just for family benefit from it is for

:41:52.:41:56.

societal and long-term benefit. We need children for the long-term

:41:57.:42:01.

economy so we cannot be narrow-minded, we cannot be

:42:02.:42:06.

short-sighted. IVF is a solution, a technological solution to a disease

:42:07.:42:13.

and we cannot cut back. What do you make of that, Serena? It is

:42:14.:42:17.

everyone's right to have a baby? That is maybe. These are doctors and

:42:18.:42:24.

nurses, members of the community, they understand the struggle, but at

:42:25.:42:28.

the end of the day we need to remember that the NHS is struggling

:42:29.:42:33.

for cash in areas that really affect people's health and while I

:42:34.:42:36.

understand that IVF is so important to some people, the reality is, with

:42:37.:42:41.

all due respect, we don't need more children. It affects people's health

:42:42.:42:46.

when they cannot have children. We will ask Richard in a minute. I

:42:47.:42:51.

accept that, and we need more support for people with mental

:42:52.:42:54.

health issues whether it is because they cannot have children or for

:42:55.:42:58.

other reasons. We also need to reframe the idea that having a child

:42:59.:43:02.

biologically is something everyone should do in order to lead a happy

:43:03.:43:08.

life. Richard, what do you make of that? The mental health side alone

:43:09.:43:13.

will have a cost. If you move IVF treatment altogether the cost of

:43:14.:43:16.

dealing with the mental health demographic you will single-handedly

:43:17.:43:20.

create so that will have a financial cost in itself. The other thing you

:43:21.:43:24.

will do if you remove IVF treatment is send people abroad where

:43:25.:43:29.

treatment is far cheaper. But is it the right of everybody to have a

:43:30.:43:35.

baby and the role of the NHS to pay for it? I think the NHS has a

:43:36.:43:40.

responsibility for it because everybody has held events of some

:43:41.:43:47.

sort, but everybody's are different. Mine was infertility and the NHS

:43:48.:43:50.

wasn't there for me. I don't have any problem with the money I have

:43:51.:43:55.

put in the system to cater for other people's health events regardless of

:43:56.:43:59.

whether it is naturally caused or from a clear lifestyle decision they

:44:00.:44:05.

have made. Caroline, is IVF isn't on the NHS for free, surely just rich

:44:06.:44:06.

people would be able to do it? The role of the NHS is not to get

:44:07.:44:16.

involved in social engineering, to make things fairer for which or poor

:44:17.:44:23.

people. But I do have some sympathy with Richard and Geeta's point of

:44:24.:44:28.

the mental health impacts of infertility. I am a mother of five

:44:29.:44:32.

children and I know it is easy for me to pontificate about why IVF

:44:33.:44:36.

should not be available on the NHS, but when we look at what IVF does,

:44:37.:44:42.

it does not solve the underlying issue of infertility, it offers, for

:44:43.:44:47.

some people, the hope of a sticking plaster. The other day,

:44:48.:44:52.

interestingly, the Government's Public health authority has put out

:44:53.:44:56.

a survey for women's fertility, it asked women of all ages to

:44:57.:45:02.

contribute about different fertility and reproductive experiences, really

:45:03.:45:05.

valuable survey, worth filling in, and it does not mention something

:45:06.:45:09.

called natural fertility awareness, a woman monitoring her cycle, not

:45:10.:45:14.

just noting when her period is, how long the cycle is, but the various

:45:15.:45:20.

biological markers. There are quite a few people who have managed to

:45:21.:45:23.

conceive successfully... There will be people who can't. The NHS is not

:45:24.:45:30.

at the moment helping with that at all, women's fertility, the NHS

:45:31.:45:35.

treats women's fertility as if it is a problem that has to be stopped

:45:36.:45:38.

because people do not want to get pregnant. Then suddenly you decide

:45:39.:45:43.

you want to have children and you are faced with this at the last

:45:44.:45:48.

minute, goodness, I would like to have children, I am not conceiving,

:45:49.:45:54.

perhaps... With that attitude, if people who smoke have lung cancer,

:45:55.:45:58.

you are on your own, your decision. Absolutely not. When you have

:45:59.:46:05.

smoked, this is not about deserving and undeserving, this is why we must

:46:06.:46:09.

not take this attitude... When you have smoked, you have contracted a

:46:10.:46:14.

life-threatening disease and unique treatment. Presumably, you have put

:46:15.:46:18.

in a lot of money through taxation on cigarettes towards the NHS. It is

:46:19.:46:23.

not to do with who has contributed and who has not, but what is the

:46:24.:46:29.

best use of funds? Is creating life the best use of funds? I think

:46:30.:46:35.

actually no. Emma has a guest who might be interested. Someone in a

:46:36.:46:38.

very different position. Joining me now with Jessica who had a loving

:46:39.:46:44.

rounds of IVF which unfortunately has not been successful -- 11

:46:45.:46:51.

rounds. You are in your mid 30s, you found you were struggling to have

:46:52.:46:56.

children, EU funded privately, why was it so important for you? -- EU

:46:57.:47:02.

funded it privately. Having a baby is something we all think is a

:47:03.:47:08.

given, we know that we might not have everything in life, but we

:47:09.:47:12.

assume we are going to be able to have a family. When that is denied

:47:13.:47:18.

to you, it is exceptionally hard and it affects everything, your

:47:19.:47:22.

self-esteem, your relationship with your family and friends, your

:47:23.:47:26.

partner, how you feel about work. That is certainly why I went to such

:47:27.:47:32.

extremes and we were diagnosed with unexplained infertility. As many

:47:33.:47:39.

people are. Absolutely. I seemed to be able to get pregnant and I had

:47:40.:47:45.

multiple miscarriages and an ectopic pregnancy that almost took my life.

:47:46.:47:49.

I now dedicate my time to campaigning. We are only having this

:47:50.:47:53.

debate partly because people do not understand the impact that not being

:47:54.:47:59.

able to have a child has on your life. How does it make you feel when

:48:00.:48:04.

you hear someone able to have five children safe, IVF should not be

:48:05.:48:08.

offered on the NHS, it is not something important for the NHS to

:48:09.:48:11.

be offering, especially considering what the NHS is there to do?

:48:12.:48:16.

Obviously, that is really hard to hear. But at the same time, I think

:48:17.:48:24.

she said many valuable things about improving fertility education. One

:48:25.:48:29.

of the reasons we have had this exponential growth in infertility is

:48:30.:48:33.

that women are leaving it later and something that I feel really

:48:34.:48:36.

passionate about is that we are taught in school how not to get

:48:37.:48:40.

pregnant and actually getting pregnant is quite hard, especially

:48:41.:48:45.

if you leave it later. We have not created the conditions to enable

:48:46.:48:49.

people to have families that the biological optimum age. I think

:48:50.:48:55.

before we eradicate IVF on the NHS, perhaps we need to do more about

:48:56.:49:01.

that. And this is a growing issue. We will pick up some of these

:49:02.:49:04.

points. Jessica, thank you. Not easy.

:49:05.:49:12.

It affects relationships, work, friends, everything. It affected

:49:13.:49:16.

that lady in every aspect of life. What is wrong with giving women the

:49:17.:49:20.

chance to try? The problem is, as the lady mentioned, we perceive

:49:21.:49:25.

infertility as being denied a family. This is not the case. When

:49:26.:49:31.

you provide IVF on the NHS and you are not giving support to people who

:49:32.:49:35.

want to go down other routes such as adoption or fostering or the

:49:36.:49:40.

emotional support they need to reframe the idea of a happy life and

:49:41.:49:46.

a family life, you end up in horrendous situations where people

:49:47.:49:50.

are paying for 11 rounds of IVF. It shows the desperation. It may not be

:49:51.:49:54.

something you feel, but it is a feeling many couples feel.

:49:55.:49:58.

Absolutely. I think those feelings are very valid but I do not think

:49:59.:50:03.

the NHS should be funding the solutions and I do not think the

:50:04.:50:08.

solution is IVF. How do you feel about that? I think you cannot

:50:09.:50:12.

overstate the mental health impact of infertility and I think if there

:50:13.:50:15.

is such a delta between what some parts of the country are paying,

:50:16.:50:21.

2000 up to 11.5 thousand, there is so much that can be done with that

:50:22.:50:26.

pot of money. What is the value of... It does not work for everyone,

:50:27.:50:31.

but what is the harm, the financial return, of spending a little bit of

:50:32.:50:36.

money of taking someone from having serious mental health issues to

:50:37.:50:40.

being happy? Let us give people at home they say. Duncan says, 25 weeks

:50:41.:50:46.

pregnant having had IVF on the NHS, hard enough process to go through

:50:47.:50:49.

without having the financial pressure on top, congratulations!

:50:50.:50:54.

And says the NHS should be treating the sick, being unable to conceive

:50:55.:51:00.

is life-threatening, why should we pay? Rebecca says, infertility is a

:51:01.:51:05.

medical condition like any other and if receiving IVF is a cure, the NHS

:51:06.:51:10.

has a moral duty to help. It should be available for anybody who wants

:51:11.:51:12.

it. The final word to Geeta, what do you

:51:13.:51:20.

want the NHS to do? Place a cap on the price of IVF, to have a national

:51:21.:51:25.

price. One price everywhere, national problem, needs a national

:51:26.:51:30.

solution, so we can fund more cycles. Three rounds? Three rounds,

:51:31.:51:38.

there is money in the budget, it is how it is being spent. We should do

:51:39.:51:43.

it as a priority rather than talking about cutbacks. Fidelity is a man's

:51:44.:51:50.

problem as well, 50% of IVF is done for male infertility. We cannot

:51:51.:51:53.

create a society where there is inequality and we need to help

:51:54.:51:58.

people and infertility is a medical condition and IVF is a technological

:51:59.:52:01.

solution. Thank you very much, thank you to all of you.

:52:02.:52:04.

70 years ago, the partition of India led to the movement

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Muslims travelled to the new, mainly Muslim, state of Pakistan,

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while many Hindus and Sikhs headed in the opposite direction.

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The upheaval led to some bitter inter-religious violence.

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A BBC programme to mark the anniversary of partition takes

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members of families from the UK back to trace their roots and explore

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the impact that the creation of the two states had

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We'll talk to Sameer Butt and Binita Kane,

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two of those who went on this journey of discovery, in a moment.

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First, a taster of the programme, My Family, Partition

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So, recognise it? That was a very beautiful house, everything has

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changed. From here to there, I think. Our house. We used to live

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here... Hugely emotional scenes, you and your grandfather, Sameer. He

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broke down? When I think back to that moment, stood in front of the

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house, there was a time when he could not believe it was his because

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it had changed so much. The realisation on his face and the

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emotion that followed, it was overwhelming. He became a child in

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that moment, he said, where is my dad? Did he? That is what he said.

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70 years disappeared and he was a child again in that moment of

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realisation. A very emotional time for him and myself as well. I cannot

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even imagine. Growing up, did you talk about partition? Did you

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understand what it had done the millions of people? I knew the

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basics of it, a split between India and Pakistan. I knew roughly that my

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grandparents had gone through a tough time to get to where they are

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now. This experience, it actually helped me to explore exactly what

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they went through. I have experienced it in a certain way

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following the footsteps my grandfather took. People around you

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growing up in the UK, did you feel they knew about it, the hatred

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between the religions that had happened? It is really interesting

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because I have friends who are Hindus and friends who are Sikhs but

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we do not have the animosity that was there in the partition time.

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Only 70 years ago? Exactly. Still within our lifetime. There are a lot

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of people I work with, friends, they had no idea what partition was. I am

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glad we now have an opportunity to explore what happened and to show

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people what happened. Let me bring in Binita. Good morning. In the

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programme, we see you meeting some of those who helped your father

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escape, the violence as a seven-year-old. Let us look at an

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extract now. I just want to thank your family and for you, you saved

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my dad's life. You helped my family escape. Thank you so much. Thank

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you. I have a photograph to show you. He is here. This is the little

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boy you saved. Also very powerful moment, Binita. From the whole

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experience, was there a particular feeling or thought that stood out?

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The whole journey was an emotional roller-coaster from start to finish.

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From a personal point of view, I did not know if the village even existed

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anymore. In my mind, it had been burnt to the ground, everyone had

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fled. To find it was there and to meet people who remembered my family

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and my grandfather... In the next episode, you find out what has

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happened to them. It was just overwhelming. I cannot even describe

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how that felt, to thank the gentleman who saved my dad's life,

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it was an incredible moment. Very special. Did you grow up also having

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these conversations or was it talked about a little bit? Like Sameer, I

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knew in very factual terms that partition happened, two new states

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were created, and I knew the basics of what had happened, but I had

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absolutely no idea what a cataclysmic event it was, millions

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of people died, so many were made refugees, and the actual human

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impact of dividing people on those grounds, that really did not

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register. I am embarrassed to say I did not know more about it. I do not

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think you are alone, even though it affected your family. At any time,

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has it been difficult now learning more about it to learn what the

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British role was and obviously living in the UK? To be honest, a

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lot of people that we met at that time did speak about the role the

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British had, they had their role to play, but for myself, I think

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whether it should have happened or shouldn't have happened, I do not

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want to comment, but it did not happen in the right way. They could

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have been what organisation, guidelines to follow. There could

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have been a system in place to ensure millions of people did not

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lose their lives. Politicians incited hatred at the time, there

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was a feeling of that. Final word to you, Binita. When you look back at

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history, there will always be dark periods, we must not shy away from

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it, we must learn from it and look at what happened and so much of it

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is relevant to the modern world and we feel quite passionately, and I

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know Anita Rani does too, that we must raise awareness of it. I am

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sure the programme will do that. And you can see the second part

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of Partition, My Family and Me - India, 1947 on BBC One at 9pm this

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Wednesday. That's nearly all

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from us for this week. Many thanks to all our

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guests and you at home But Emma will be carrying

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on the conversation online. Yes, I'll be talking

:58:12.:58:15.

to Sameer and Binita. Log on to

:58:16.:58:17.

facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive In the meantime, from everyone

:58:18.:58:18.

here in the studio and the whole Sunday Morning Live team,

:58:19.:58:25.

goodbye.

:58:26.:58:32.

Is it justified to use military force against North Korea? Sean Fletcher and Emma Barnett lead debate on the Asian stand-off between Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un. Also on the programme, Dame Esther Rantzen talks about a lifetime of championing causes.


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