Episode 8 Sunday Morning Live


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Episode 8

Sean Fletcher and Emma Barnett present thought-provoking debate and instant audience reaction on the big ethical talking points of the week.


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Lord Sugar says politicians should face prosecution if they lie.

:00:00.:00:13.

He wants MPs to face the same scrutiny as business,

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On the apprentice, you admire a good salesperson, and a good salesperson,

:00:17.:00:29.

at times, has to embellish the truth. No, I'm sorry. Long term, a

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good salesperson has to tell the truth. Have you ever lied before?

:00:36.:00:38.

Only about the tooth fairy. Channel 4 is going ahead

:00:39.:00:40.

with the broadcast of tapes of Do the royal family

:00:41.:00:42.

deserve more privacy? And we debate the ethics of shooting

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animals for sport as a charity uses One of the first things we have come

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up with is a pheasant casserole and partridge curry.

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All that coming up - and Emma Barnett is here ready

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We want you to get in touch with your views on our

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You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter -

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don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.

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Or text SML followed by your message to 60011.

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Texts are charged at your standard message rate.

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Or email us at sundaymorninglive@bbc.co.uk.

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However you choose to get in touch, don't forget to include your name

:01:33.:01:35.

so I can get you involved in the programme.

:01:36.:01:41.

For instance, you may have strong views about new genetic research

:01:42.:01:44.

on embryos which might help eliminate some

:01:45.:01:45.

But could it also open the door to designer babies?

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I'll be putting that to a leading scientist in the field later.

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But first, something else to get you talking.

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Well, Lord Sugar, a business leader and television star,

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says one way to improve that is to prosecute politicians

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I went to see him to find out more - and found myself facing him

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across a boardroom table just like in his TV series

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You're fired. You're fired. Lord Sugar, I want to start by

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asking you what you want to make it a criminal offence for a politician

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to lie? Because I think the ramifications of some of the

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promises or lives that they have made have endangered the population.

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It is as simple as that. As an example, the moving out of the

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European Union, I'm not sure that the majority of the electorate

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really understood the full ramifications of it. We were

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disastrously led into it by lies, big lies. Would you want politicians

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in jail? I would, I would put Gove and Johnson in jail for what they

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said. For what they promised in the referendum? It should be a criminal

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offence because they are responsible politicians who blatantly, and they

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cannot argue against this, printed a figure of ?350 million on the side

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of a bus and implied that is what we pay to the European Union every

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week, oh, and by the way, we will take that 350 and throw it in to the

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National help. But people will say, on The Apprentice, you admire a good

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salesperson, and a good salesperson at times has to embellish the truth.

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No, I'm sorry. Longer term a good salesperson has to tell the truth.

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They won't tell the bad points, they will see the positives of the

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product and the negatives... It is not for them to tell the bad side,

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it is for the person who is selling to ask questions... Is that not

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embellishing? Not really, you are not hiding anything. But you see how

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it is close to the line? It depends what kind of salesman you are

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talking about. If it is Del Boy and Rodney, you are right, they would

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break the rules. But Del Boy and Rodney are not politicians, they

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have not been voted by people to represent them and that is the

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difference. Have you ever lied before? Only about the tooth fairy.

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Really? The way you are smiling I don't think that is true! Somethings

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are effectively a lie, but no serious lies. Your business I'm sure

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it is perfectly sound but there are not that are not doing exactly the

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right thing, maybe telling lies, and you can get away with it in

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business, card you? It depends, not in a public company you can't. As a

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past chairman of three public companies, it was my obligation to

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write a chairman's statement to the shareholders that was audited by

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individual people and they would challenge me, how can you say that

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you are going to do this, how can you say you are going to do that?

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Very tight scrutiny. All I'm saying is that the manifesto should be

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vetted prior to them going public. Morally, should be vetted by

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independent people. But what you would get is a lot of bland

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manifestos because politicians are scared stiff of saying something

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that perhaps is not going to work? Economies change, things change. I

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have no problem with people in their election manifesto coming out with

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statistics. The only problem I have got is, get them right, get the

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numbers right. In the case of Mr Corbyn, when you say that you are

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going to try to cancel student fees, maybe think about re-funding, that

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statement is ?100 billion, you cannot make that statement because

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an auditor or an economist would advise, don't say that because you

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will never be able to pull it off. It could be argued, and he would

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argue, I didn't promise it, so it is not a lie, but come on, you are

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talking to 18, 19-year-old students who will take that as, well, I will

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have some of that, I will definitely have some of that. Let's talk about

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your fellow host of The Apprentice across the pond, Donald Trump. Is he

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not a great example of politicians in England getting more scrutiny

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than businessmen? He did what he likes, now he is getting more

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scrutiny. I think you are right, as a businessman he could just turn

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around and say, we are going to paint all our buildings green

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tomorrow, get on with it. In the White House of course he cannot just

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say, we are going to do this and do that, he has had if you slap backs,

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as we speak right now there is turmoil in the White House and yet

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Donald, he will go on Twitter and say, isn't life great, haven't I

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done well so far? Everything I promised has come true! In fact,

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actually, not really, you have not done anything yet, but he will write

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that down in a tweet and a lot of the population will believe it

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because he said it. You are overlord, of course. Would you

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consider a move into front line politics? Absolutely not. Why?

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Because it is a thankless, hopeless task. In my 70 years I have never

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heard a member of the public say, what a great Prime Minister we have,

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how good things are, isn't it nice, isn't it wonderful? I think they are

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nuts, they must be nuts to take that on. Lord Sugar, thank you very much

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indeed. OK, thanks a lot. So should it be illegal

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for politicians to lie, particularly Joining us now to discuss

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that are Peter Hitchens, And Gina Miller,

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a businesswoman and campaigner. Jena, you heard Lord Sugar there,

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should it be a criminal offence for politicians to lie? I think there

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are degrees of lie and there should be degrees of punishment. There

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should be punishment for politicians who lie, I see it a bit like a code

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of ethics or being a doctor, if a politician lies and breaks that code

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of ethics, they should be struck off and not be allowed to be a

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politician again. If it is a more serious lied then there is a

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consequence to the country and I think there should be ramifications.

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Gove and Johnson? The referendum is irreversible, but with general

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elections you just vote them out. I think Mr Gove in particular said it

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is fine to lie on the electable -- electoral Trail, and I think he

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should be facing consequences for that. Electoral lies are enormous

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for the country and they should be held responsible. Exploiting fear by

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lying has become more visible and there is far more of it in politics

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and that is worrying to all of us so we will have to bring in something

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that stops that flow and building up of lies that is happening. Peter,

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you are not known for your love of politicians, would you banged them

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up? Apart from the practical work ability of it, the selective victor

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's justice which would follow if people were prosecuted by the

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Government, practices such as that, it is ridiculous for us to pretend

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that politicians are the only ones involved in dishonesty at elections.

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In the old saying it used to be said that people pretended to work and

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the Government pretended to pay them. In our elections, the

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politicians pretend to have these manifestos and we pretend to believe

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them and that is why we have got into the mess we have. Blatant lies

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are told by people bribing us with our own money and one of the reasons

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why democracy is going so rapidly down is precisely because of that

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soap to turn on politicians and blamed them for playing a game that

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we played with the same enthusiasm is ridiculous. You cannot bring the

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public, if they are all lying... You can certainly bring the public

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because the public's self-deception is one of the reasons why this

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country is in debt nationally and individually, we will not face up to

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the reality of the situation, we would rather be lied to them told

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the truth. If a politician went into an election and said, this is the

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real state of the country, we don't make and export enough, we have to

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increase income tax or council tax is very heavily to balance the

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national books, they would lose the election. Emma has a guest with

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years of political experience. I'm joined now by the former Tory MP

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and Cabinet minister Edwina Currie. Good morning. Let me correct you on

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something I said, I would not wish it to be known as a lie when you

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said I was a cabinet minister, Margaret Thatcher did not have any

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female cabinet ministers, I was a Government minister. Honest from the

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start! Should politicians ever be prosecuted for lying to the public?

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Well, they are under electoral law, it is an electoral offence. Phil

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Willis, for example, a Labour Government minister in 2010, fought

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an election with lies on his leaflets. Unfortunately his opponent

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was a millionaire businessman who took him to a electoral Court, the

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election was swept to one side and he was banned for three years from

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taking part in any election campaigns. So it can be done. Do you

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think those rules can be updating in light of something like the EU

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referendum where there was, as some people put it, a big lie on the side

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of above about how much money would come back into the NHS if we let the

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European Union, would you specifically put Foreign Secretary

:12:33.:12:35.

Boris Johnson in prison or have him prosecuted? Part of the problem in a

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fast-moving campaign is the speed of doing this, the lie is around the

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world before the truth has put its boot on and the cumbersome process

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as Peter Hitchens has just pointed out where you would have to have it

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checked and have lawyers and all the rest of it, by that time you have

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got the election done and voting has been done and people have taken the

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decision. Of course the best lies are the ones where there is an

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element of truth. I was a Remain campaign but it is true that we make

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a substantial net contribution to the EU and at some point in the

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future when we are out of it we won't be making that and that money

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might be available for other things. So you don't sound like you want to

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put Boris Johnson in the can yet, what about Jeremy Corbyn's promises

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about student debt? Alan Sugar misquoted him of it, what Corbyn

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said was that he would deal with student debt. You can read into that

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whatever you like but if you are talking to a bunch of students and

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young people they are likely to think, that will mean no student

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debt, it will mean no fees in future, that would be absolutely

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great, we will vote for that so a million of them did and some of them

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even voted twice which is of course another electoral offence. Let's

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stick with this for the moment, can you honestly say now you never lied

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while you were in politics? Of course I occasionally like that

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sometimes it was because the truth was so unpalatable that people find

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it very, very hard and sometimes you had to say to people, look, you are

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not going to like what I am going to tell you, particularly with

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constituents, but I won't lie to you, and they would then try to find

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somebody else for a second opinion because that is what they prefer.

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Peter Hitchens referred to... What is an example that you lied about?

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Anything major that you regret? For example I represented a coal mining

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constituency, it was obvious the pits were going to close, they had

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been worked for many years, they were worked out, dangerous, heavily

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subsidised to keep people there. We were going to have to find something

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else for people to do. It was not at the time of the miners strike when

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these men were at work, unpalatable thing to stand up and make speeches

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about, but in the aftermath of the miners strike when people realised

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change had to come, that was the approach that I took and indeed we

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got Toyota so we were successful. Thank you for that. Not palatable,

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you don't say the truth at the time. Sometimes the truth is more harmful.

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Good time to bring in our lying expert! You have written a book

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about lying, did you lie in the book? I lie about everything! Our

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politicians worse than the general public? If anything they probably

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lie less than the general public because whatever they say is exposed

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to a unforgiving scrutiny and they have to be very careful about what

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they say. I think the reason we start to think of them as a bit

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shifty and dishonest is that they are always guarding themselves

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against any possible situation where they could be lying and the fact is

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people like all the time, we all like all the time, that is a big

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thing when I talked to psychologists who study this for a living for my

:15:53.:15:57.

book, they have various theories of how mining works and why people like

:15:58.:16:00.

that what all agree is that people lie habitually and it is part of

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daily life, so one psychologist found this figure which is that

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people lie three times within ten minutes of meeting each other, so we

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only met a few minutes ago I have probably told a few porkies! Another

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one found that people lie on average twice a day, which is probably

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right. The lies which really make people

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angry are the lies that are told to damage the innocent persons, bearing

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false witness, or lies to gain advantage over other people in

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fairy. Those lives matter and they are told in politics and business as

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well. Are business people worse than politicians? You have painted quite

:16:47.:16:51.

a good picture politicians. I think just as bad, if not worse. I work in

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business and the idea that business is more honest than politics is

:16:57.:17:01.

ridiculous, I think. Business people exaggerate and prevaricate all the

:17:02.:17:07.

time, so do we. People in all walks of life have risen to the top who

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have sticks and carrots as to why they are lying. For some it is

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advancement, sometimes the stickers that you will be sacked or not

:17:17.:17:21.

promoted. I expect politicians to be better. I don't want them to be

:17:22.:17:27.

lying. What I think is very worrying is the increase in lining and how

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visible it is, playing on people's fears. When you lie in politics and

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you exacerbate people's fears, it is not responsible and you have do have

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some checks and balances when it comes to lying back creates fear.

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Politicians have been lying for years, Jonathan Aiken, Jeffrey

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Archer. When Winston Churchill was asked about lying he said I have

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lied many times for my country but less frequently to my country, that

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is the difference. The public and the media are lot more connected

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through social media, so we can share our views of he was lying, it

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goes on social media and everybody sees it. We could not do that

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before. The public are partially to blame. Looking at the end of 2016,

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only 50% of the population trust politicians, but how vocal are they

:18:22.:18:24.

add saying I don't trust you? They are willing to take the lie because

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it is easier, perhaps. Five years of moaning that politicians always lie,

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30 seconds in the polling booth to vote for the same people. We have

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had an awful lot of stuff about the referendum campaign, as a supporter

:18:44.:18:47.

of this country leaving the European Union I completely accept that the

:18:48.:18:50.

Leave campaign behaved disgracefully in some of the things they did, but

:18:51.:18:56.

so did Remain. Both sides. The whole thing began with Ted Heath telling

:18:57.:19:00.

an enormous whopper about how joining the then Common Market would

:19:01.:19:05.

not affect British sovereignty and independence, a complete and

:19:06.:19:07.

absolute falsehood and the row has rested on but ever since. The idea

:19:08.:19:13.

it is one-sided or new is incorrect. I think both sides lied. Who will

:19:14.:19:21.

decide he was lying and he was not? Who will decide weather or not the

:19:22.:19:26.

promise about the NHS is a lie? Will that be decided in the courts? The

:19:27.:19:30.

people who voted on that basis do not necessarily think that, you have

:19:31.:19:34.

that view. The way we punish politicians for lying is by putting

:19:35.:19:38.

them out of office, once we have decided they are dishonest... Let's

:19:39.:19:44.

get social media. Hopefully we do fact checking at the BBC as

:19:45.:19:48.

journalists. Something that Edwina Currie said with regards to Phil

:19:49.:19:53.

Willis, the CPS did not go ahead without prosecution.

:19:54.:19:55.

One person on Twitter says manifestos can be made legally

:19:56.:20:00.

binding as situations might change. Robert says lying occasionally is a

:20:01.:20:04.

requirement of politics. We had to be realistic that nobody will ever

:20:05.:20:08.

meet every single manifesto pledge promised. Bob says politicians get

:20:09.:20:11.

away with all sorts of behaviour that would see the rest of us in

:20:12.:20:25.

court. If we lied at work we would be sacked. Paul says prosecute

:20:26.:20:30.

politicians for lying? We would have to build a new prison after every

:20:31.:20:36.

election. Thanks for that, Paul, we like the practicality.

:20:37.:20:39.

Peter, how can we make politicians more honest? A more educated

:20:40.:20:45.

electorate is what you need. The real crisis of our country is in the

:20:46.:20:49.

collapse of education since the destruction of the grammar schools

:20:50.:20:52.

in the 60 's, since when people have been taught what to think but not

:20:53.:20:56.

how to think. If you can't think, how can you possibly judge whether

:20:57.:21:00.

somebody should be elected into Government? Have you ever told a big

:21:01.:21:05.

lie in your job? You are really called out in my job if you lie in

:21:06.:21:14.

print club. I have lied in person, no doubt. Your body language was not

:21:15.:21:17.

good. You can doubtless find it if I have. Yes or no? I think we all tell

:21:18.:21:23.

lies to some degree, in the investment world when you tell the

:21:24.:21:28.

truth there is a price to pay, you get less votes, less customers but

:21:29.:21:33.

it is the right thing to do. It is about the conditions that

:21:34.:21:36.

politicians operating, it is not that they are particularly bad at

:21:37.:21:41.

lying. No light, we are out of time. Thank you for joining us.

:21:42.:21:43.

Next week marks what some describe as the glorious 12th -

:21:44.:21:46.

the official start of the shooting season for red grouse in the UK,

:21:47.:21:49.

during which hundreds of thousands of the birds are shot

:21:50.:21:51.

The day is often marked by protests from animal rights campaigners.

:21:52.:21:55.

But a charity has begun a scheme to use game birds such as pheasant

:21:56.:21:58.

and partridge to provide meals for people in need.

:21:59.:22:00.

The former England cricket captain Sir Ian Botham says he plans

:22:01.:22:03.

to donate 10,000 birds from his shooting

:22:04.:22:07.

Wendy Robbins went to find out more about the scheme.

:22:08.:22:18.

Shooting birds in the UK. All it has long been a controversial subject.

:22:19.:22:26.

However it remains a firm and legal fixture in our countryside and a big

:22:27.:22:31.

part of life in Rowell communities. I caught up with Sebastien Green,

:22:32.:22:35.

who organises shoots. I know the shooting season is soon to begin,

:22:36.:22:40.

can you take me through broadly what happens on a shoot? Ago there are

:22:41.:22:43.

various forms of shooting, it can be driven shooting where birds are

:22:44.:22:48.

driven towards people who shoot, there is walked up shooting where

:22:49.:22:53.

people who shoot the birds will walk towards them. The shooting community

:22:54.:22:58.

contribute ?2 billion towards the rural economy, it is quite

:22:59.:23:02.

significant. Tim Woodward is a former commodity

:23:03.:23:06.

broker who left his job in the City last year as he wanted to set up a

:23:07.:23:12.

charity to help tackle food poverty. Sebastien suggested a way to achieve

:23:13.:23:17.

that. Sebastien told me about this idea he had of really utilising meet

:23:18.:23:23.

to feed people in need. We started exploring that idea. -- utilising

:23:24.:23:29.

meat. How do you feed people? We went to be by charities and asked

:23:30.:23:33.

what they do not have. They said they get a lot of low nutritional

:23:34.:23:37.

value products but they are missing really good protein and meat. We

:23:38.:23:41.

looked at a wide array of meat and the first thing we came up with is a

:23:42.:23:46.

pheasant casserole and a partridge curry. What made you think about

:23:47.:23:51.

that? In the countryside at the moment there is a wide availability

:23:52.:23:56.

of those two meats, the price has come down in recent years and we

:23:57.:24:00.

thought we might appeal to people in those environments to help us by

:24:01.:24:06.

maybe donating their meat to us. The charity is looking to donate

:24:07.:24:12.

125,000 meals this year. TV chef Tim Adams is their food adviser. The

:24:13.:24:18.

nutritional value of game meat is, generally speaking, higher than

:24:19.:24:21.

comparable farmed meat. High in protein, exceptionally low in fat by

:24:22.:24:25.

comparison to fund meat because it has had a longer life, grown over a

:24:26.:24:31.

greater period. It is more nutrient dense, partly because it is moved

:24:32.:24:34.

around a lot and partly because of a more varied diet. I was interested

:24:35.:24:40.

to know what it was about this charity that attracted him. I am

:24:41.:24:49.

proud to be part of the Country Food Trust and what they are doing, there

:24:50.:24:52.

are a lot of hungry people for what different reasons. When you look at

:24:53.:24:55.

that problem and you say we want to feed them, how can we help, you

:24:56.:24:58.

start looking for low value products to feed them, and I am talking about

:24:59.:25:03.

monetary value, not nutritional value. One of the no-brainers at the

:25:04.:25:07.

right time of year is game meat. Pheasant and partridge particularly,

:25:08.:25:14.

available in a very short period of time that become incredibly cheap.

:25:15.:25:18.

You can give it away to people who are hungry.

:25:19.:25:22.

Game meat might be nutritious but for some people there are big

:25:23.:25:26.

ethical questions about killing birds for sport. Some people feel,

:25:27.:25:31.

this is their concern, that what you are doing is taking something

:25:32.:25:35.

distasteful to them, shooting birds for sports, and making it acceptable

:25:36.:25:39.

by giving to charity in the way you are doing. I think that you could be

:25:40.:25:43.

made but it did not cross our minds when we started. Clearly some people

:25:44.:25:47.

are very much against shooting and some people are very much in favour,

:25:48.:25:52.

and a large sector of people might not have a view. As a charity we are

:25:53.:25:57.

not lobbying for against. If you have an issue with shooting

:25:58.:26:01.

that is your right, campaign about it and fight for a change in the

:26:02.:26:05.

law. But don't in the meantime stop is taking a low value commodity with

:26:06.:26:10.

a very high nutrient wealth and giving it to people who are hungry,

:26:11.:26:12.

don't mix those two arguments. Wendy Robbins with an example of how

:26:13.:26:15.

birds shot for sport can be used But hunting and shooting remain

:26:16.:26:19.

controversial and can generate strong passions both

:26:20.:26:22.

for and against. So let's discuss - is it ethical

:26:23.:26:26.

to shoot animals for sport? Joining us now are Phillippa King,

:26:27.:26:29.

the director of The League Jim Barrington is from

:26:30.:26:32.

the Countryside Alliance. Bonnie Greer is a

:26:33.:26:38.

playwright and novelist. And Peter Hitchens

:26:39.:26:42.

the journalist is still with us. Philippa, starting with you, is

:26:43.:26:49.

there some good coming out of shooting in terms of feeding people

:26:50.:26:52.

who do not have enough food or food with lots of protein in it, then

:26:53.:26:57.

surely that is better in your eyes? I would argue that people who go to

:26:58.:27:01.

food banks need the basics like bread, milk, cheese, sugar and

:27:02.:27:06.

flour. There is another dark aspect to this that in 2012 the Food

:27:07.:27:11.

Standards Agency put out a warning that people should not eat too merge

:27:12.:27:15.

game bird that has been shot by lead. Let's can cause brain injuries

:27:16.:27:22.

and nervous system problems. -- lead can cause. It is great people want

:27:23.:27:26.

to help people going to food banks, not a problem. The charity said they

:27:27.:27:30.

tested their first production run for traitors of lead, results were

:27:31.:27:34.

very low and well within the EU regulations and they will continue

:27:35.:27:38.

to test each production run going forward. In terms of the food you

:27:39.:27:42.

mentioned, the food banks, none of them had a great deal of protein. So

:27:43.:27:47.

people using food bank should not eat meat? Ago but is not my point at

:27:48.:27:54.

all. But testing them,, I am really pleased they are testing but the

:27:55.:27:57.

Food Standards Agency says you should not eat too much game bird

:27:58.:28:04.

shot by lead. About charities that give food to children or pregnant

:28:05.:28:07.

women, they are thinking about these things and they are within the

:28:08.:28:11.

regulations. In the shooting season there was

:28:12.:28:17.

100,000 birds shot a day. They are reared to be shot, in the most awful

:28:18.:28:26.

circumstances. They are in message toe mesh cages, they are not

:28:27.:28:30.

indigenous birds, lots get chipped in. -- they are in mesh cages. This

:28:31.:28:39.

board, again, is this a sport? It is not a level playing field. Jim, you

:28:40.:28:44.

used to be part of the organisation of Philippa is in bits you have

:28:45.:28:49.

changed sides? I looked up the facts. When you start to portray

:28:50.:28:53.

something is just killing for sports, then it gives people who do

:28:54.:28:59.

not have much to do with that activity a skewed view. This has a

:29:00.:29:03.

utilitarian outcome, as so many forms of shooting and hunting do.

:29:04.:29:08.

Not all, but they can't all be lumped together as Chris Packham

:29:09.:29:12.

seems to do with his animal rights agenda. It has a benefits. You had

:29:13.:29:19.

to look at that benefit and equally you have to look at the

:29:20.:29:24.

consequences. If you stop these activities. It benefits humans, what

:29:25.:29:29.

about the birds who are pretty much battery hens? That is a debate.

:29:30.:29:35.

Personally I do not eat meat, but when people are eating literally

:29:36.:29:38.

billions of intensively reared birds, to say that shooting free

:29:39.:29:43.

range birds, which is what this is... They are not free range...

:29:44.:29:49.

When they are out they are. They have many conservation benefits

:29:50.:29:53.

which provide and keep a unique part of the countryside, the heathland.

:29:54.:29:59.

Bonnie? We need to separated. It is wonderful to feed people, you

:30:00.:30:02.

shouldn't say they should not eat gross, they should eat what they

:30:03.:30:08.

need to. It is a cover for so-called sport, which is about people running

:30:09.:30:12.

around the countryside in funny costumes and screaming.

:30:13.:30:17.

There was nothing wrong with it, but don't tie on some kind of book about

:30:18.:30:24.

people eating as a result of it. It is not about eating, it is about

:30:25.:30:29.

doing what they want to do, but you should not connect the two. This is

:30:30.:30:35.

itself a cover for a class war campaign. It is not about class war.

:30:36.:30:43.

Let's keep a sense of proportion, millions, possibly billions of

:30:44.:30:46.

chickens reared in the most disgusting conditions, pigs as well,

:30:47.:30:52.

in this country and other countries, cattle, to be fed. The proportion of

:30:53.:30:55.

this in comparison to the amount of shooting is vast. But there are

:30:56.:31:04.

regulations. If you let me finish my point I can shut up afterwards. Here

:31:05.:31:10.

is the point, I have enormous respect for vegetarians and

:31:11.:31:14.

freedoms, I am not want, but if someone who is a vegetarian or begin

:31:15.:31:19.

can object to the shooting of game birds, anybody who makes a fuss

:31:20.:31:22.

about a very small number of game birds being shot and says nothing at

:31:23.:31:27.

all about battery and factory produced meat which they willingly

:31:28.:31:32.

eat, says nothing about conditions in many slaughterhouses which

:31:33.:31:35.

provide the meat to eat, seems to me to be missing the point and losing

:31:36.:31:38.

all sense of proportion and attacking something they don't do

:31:39.:31:42.

while leaving something alone which they do do. Ayew a vegetarian? No,

:31:43.:31:51.

I'm not. You said a small amount of birds, it is about 35 million birds

:31:52.:31:54.

a year which are reared and shot, they don't have the regulations that

:31:55.:32:00.

farm animals do, we have all seen... Regulations are really helpful to

:32:01.:32:05.

the chickens. We all know those regulations due to be tight end but

:32:06.:32:10.

we are talking about people going out for pleasure to shoot animals on

:32:11.:32:14.

a mass scale at which about 30 or 40% don't get shot cleanly because

:32:15.:32:19.

when people have adrenaline going in a sporting environment, study

:32:20.:32:29.

showed... Let Philippa speed. About 100,000 birds a day are shot and

:32:30.:32:32.

most of those go into the pit, not the pot. They are just disregarded.

:32:33.:32:41.

Let's eat more of them. For people that just do that for enjoyment for

:32:42.:32:43.

one day. Let's bring in Emma now,

:32:44.:32:44.

who has a guest who is firmly I'm joined now by Diggory Hadoke,

:32:45.:32:47.

an author and hunter. What animals do you shoot? All sorts

:32:48.:33:04.

of things since I first had a gun at eight years old, I started with

:33:05.:33:06.

rabbits around local farms, progressed to a shotgun later in

:33:07.:33:11.

life shooting pheasants and pigeons again around the farms. By the time

:33:12.:33:18.

I was about 30 I started getting involved in driven game shoot and

:33:19.:33:23.

while fouling and I also shoot deer on bases in Scotland, mainly row and

:33:24.:33:31.

red deer. I hunt in Africa as well. The African side of things is

:33:32.:33:34.

slightly separate, we will get onto that the moment. Would you say what

:33:35.:33:39.

you do you do as a sport, as fun? Read a rather lame article in the

:33:40.:33:45.

Guardian this week which criticised me as an apologist for shooting and

:33:46.:33:49.

I would say I am an advocate of shooting, I don't think there is

:33:50.:33:52.

anything to apologise for. Shooting is a great sport and it is a sport

:33:53.:33:57.

which has been part and parcel of English country life for as long as

:33:58.:34:01.

we have had society. Many things have been part and parcel of English

:34:02.:34:05.

life that we have got rid of, which are no longer appropriate. If you

:34:06.:34:06.

say it is a sport you understand why some people may feel

:34:07.:34:27.

uncomfortable about your sport? I think some people live very

:34:28.:34:29.

different lives. If you have grown up in the countryside and hunt for

:34:30.:34:32.

utility and sport it is a normal part of everyday life. If you are

:34:33.:34:35.

based in an urban environment it seems utterly alien to you and you

:34:36.:34:37.

cannot understand it but ignorance should not be a basis for banning

:34:38.:34:39.

things which numbers show are beneficial and healthy. You

:34:40.:34:41.

mentioned you have been out to Africa which speaks to trophy

:34:42.:34:44.

hunting, I don't know what you hunted out there but how do you

:34:45.:34:48.

defend that, what did you hide? I have hunted all sorts of things in

:34:49.:34:53.

Africa, I have been out to shoot pigeons over sunflower crops where

:34:54.:34:55.

the annual sunflower crop loses about 30% of what is grown to

:34:56.:35:01.

predation by pigeons and guinea fowl so I have been out to shoot those...

:35:02.:35:07.

You don't go to Africa to shoot pigeons, what were the big game

:35:08.:35:11.

targets? I have been to Africa to shoot pigeons on many occasions, it

:35:12.:35:14.

is a very good thing to do and a good sport. I have also hunted

:35:15.:35:20.

buffalo in Tanzania, I have been on as a journalist and accompanying

:35:21.:35:25.

Hunter on an elephant hunt in Botswana, a lion hunt in Tanzania,

:35:26.:35:31.

numerous opportunities to hunt buffalo and things so I have

:35:32.:35:34.

reasonable experience of hunting in Africa for all sorts of things. You

:35:35.:35:37.

don't have any empathy with people who have an issue with that? Well,

:35:38.:35:43.

again, lots of people have emotional reactions to all sorts of things and

:35:44.:35:47.

have a personal moral objection to them, which is fine, but don't try

:35:48.:35:51.

to impose them on other people. I don't think... I think in order to

:35:52.:35:57.

object to something and call for a ban on it, you need to show that it

:35:58.:36:02.

does harm and all empirical studies show hunting in Africa does a lot of

:36:03.:36:09.

good and really areas where hunting is the conservation strategy of

:36:10.:36:14.

choice, often the only one that works. Diggory, you have put your

:36:15.:36:18.

view across there, thank you for sharing it this morning. Always good

:36:19.:36:22.

to hear what you were thinking at home, thank you for getting in

:36:23.:36:25.

touch, I'm sure more responses will come in, but Paul says, when you

:36:26.:36:29.

deliberately raise these birds with the intention of shooting them for

:36:30.:36:32.

sport then yes, it is absolutely pathetic.

:36:33.:36:36.

Shooting birds is OK, say someone else, but only if birds are allowed

:36:37.:36:40.

to shoot back! Another one, Chris says, there is a

:36:41.:36:44.

reason we are the top of the food chain, it means we can eat whatever

:36:45.:36:48.

we want. Very interesting debate there. Even

:36:49.:36:53.

more interesting seeing your reaction, Bonnie! He says you are

:36:54.:36:57.

just being emotional. This guy obviously like shooting, fine, but

:36:58.:37:08.

the thing is, the question with the birds, giving birds to homeless

:37:09.:37:12.

people, that is why it is OK to do that, those are two different point.

:37:13.:37:15.

It is good to feed people, nothing wrong with that, but to have a

:37:16.:37:20.

sport, and I'm not going to go out banning people from doing that, but

:37:21.:37:24.

just as a general question, to have a sport on a built-up island, OK,

:37:25.:37:30.

where it is completely almost urbanised and people are rushing

:37:31.:37:36.

around with shotguns in costumes on horses and dogs that they breed, it

:37:37.:37:40.

is absolutely ridiculous, and at the end of the day, we are going to talk

:37:41.:37:46.

about it like that, that is what it is. You have got ten seconds. You

:37:47.:37:53.

are portraying this as something it is not, this is wildlife management,

:37:54.:37:56.

all of these activities have a benefit. You always hear what people

:37:57.:38:02.

dislike but never what they are for. I gave you ten seconds and I have to

:38:03.:38:06.

stick to that, we are out of time, thank you all very much indeed.

:38:07.:38:09.

Still to come on Sunday Morning Live...

:38:10.:38:12.

Marine Baig visits the community that welcomes people

:38:13.:38:19.

A major scientific breakthrough was announced this week

:38:20.:38:33.

as scientists discovered a way of editing embryos to remove

:38:34.:38:35.

faulty DNA that causes life-threatening genetic conditions.

:38:36.:38:43.

The study gives a glimpse into the possible future

:38:44.:38:45.

of medicine, where genetically inherited disabilities

:38:46.:38:47.

But it also provokes deep questions as to the ethics involved

:38:48.:38:52.

Here to discuss this latest breakthrough

:38:53.:38:57.

and the issues that arise from it is Professor Darren Griffin,

:38:58.:39:00.

an expert in genetics from the University of Kent.

:39:01.:39:06.

So this week is a big week in the world, can you explain in simple

:39:07.:39:12.

terms what was discovered? Basically we have had a procedure called

:39:13.:39:17.

preimplantation genetic diagnosis for about 25 years and that involves

:39:18.:39:22.

the creation of a number of embryos and then the selection of those

:39:23.:39:25.

thought to be unaffected with genetic disease. What is different

:39:26.:39:29.

with this procedure is that it would take embryos that are thought to be

:39:30.:39:35.

affected and the technology can correct that genetic defect so it

:39:36.:39:38.

can put in a normal gene where there was previously an abnormal one. And

:39:39.:39:43.

in this instance it removed heart disease? Yes, a particular type of

:39:44.:39:48.

heart disease as a genetic component, you may recall the

:39:49.:39:51.

footballers have her number, something similar to that. -- the

:39:52.:40:04.

footballer Fabrice Muamba. There will be concerned that this could be

:40:05.:40:07.

misused in a way that would not be good for us as humans, who would be

:40:08.:40:10.

eligible for the treatment and how would it work in day-to-day life? Is

:40:11.:40:15.

it just those going through IVF? By and large these would be people at

:40:16.:40:20.

risk of transmitting genetic diseases, so a classic example would

:40:21.:40:24.

be cystic fibrosis in Caucasian populations, one in 20 of us have a

:40:25.:40:28.

copy of the faulty cystic fibrosis gene. So if you knew that you could

:40:29.:40:33.

go to your doctor before procreating, if this was to become

:40:34.:40:38.

law, and they, I would like to make my babies with the help of doctors

:40:39.:40:43.

and have the gene removed? What can happen already if they can go to an

:40:44.:40:51.

IVF clinic and the embryos, one or two embryos are selected and at the

:40:52.:40:56.

moment people can have embryos selected that are free from the

:40:57.:41:00.

disease, what would potentially be different in future if this ever

:41:01.:41:04.

came to pass is if they found none of those were genetically normal

:41:05.:41:10.

then one of those found to be abnormal could potentially be

:41:11.:41:13.

corrected. What about the ethics of this? Let's say everybody was

:41:14.:41:18.

eligible in some way, because there is concern which people could get

:41:19.:41:24.

access to this and they could be a rich super race, we don't really

:41:25.:41:28.

know the ramifications of removing the gene, putting warning, changing,

:41:29.:41:33.

editing DNA. We have a number of issues, first of all the issue of

:41:34.:41:38.

ethics itself, should we be meddling with embryos at all? At the moment

:41:39.:41:43.

in the UK and the US, many other countries have legislation on this,

:41:44.:41:50.

it is illegal to manipulate an embryo and go on and... Do you agree

:41:51.:41:56.

with that? At the moment I think it is absolutely right because we have

:41:57.:41:59.

safety concerns that need to be addressed so the procedure itself

:42:00.:42:03.

can cause off target affects that need to be properly investigated and

:42:04.:42:07.

one thing I am a huge advocate for is proper research before these

:42:08.:42:13.

things go into clinical procedures. Then we need to consider the ethical

:42:14.:42:18.

framework, yes on the one hand should we manipulate embryos at all,

:42:19.:42:21.

but equally on the other hand, if we have the ability to do this and

:42:22.:42:26.

there are families in need of it, is it ethical not to do it? This is the

:42:27.:42:31.

framework. There is concern, I know it is a phrase used often with any

:42:32.:42:36.

advance we hear about, designer babies, creating them, what issues

:42:37.:42:41.

that poses? I thought you might mention that. Designer babies is a

:42:42.:42:44.

phrase you hear a lot and I give public talks and I have bitten the

:42:45.:42:50.

bullet and tongue in cheek call it that now... But it is a serious

:42:51.:42:55.

concern. I have mixed feelings about the phrase but yes, there is a

:42:56.:43:01.

concern about the way that we mitigate -- and the way that we

:43:02.:43:05.

mitigate that if we have lawyers who work on social policy, philosophers,

:43:06.:43:09.

ethicists, all of whom need to be involved in the debate considering

:43:10.:43:12.

all of the pros and cons, the safety, the ethics of doing it, the

:43:13.:43:16.

ethics of not giving it, then we come to review whether society, we

:43:17.:43:22.

have the human fertilisation embryo authority formed many years ago and

:43:23.:43:26.

by and large this sort of work is highly, highly regulated. So at the

:43:27.:43:31.

moment you are aware of the issues but they need much more

:43:32.:43:34.

investigation and that is where we are at the moment? Absolutely, and

:43:35.:43:38.

the thing gives it is highly regulated and long should it remain

:43:39.:43:42.

so. We will keep talking about it, I'm sure. Professor Darren Griffin,

:43:43.:43:43.

thank you. Tonight Channel 4 will broadcast

:43:44.:43:46.

a controversial documentary about Princess Diana which has been

:43:47.:43:48.

called a betrayal of privacy. The programme uses recordings made

:43:49.:43:51.

by the princess as part of a voice coaching course and reportedly

:43:52.:43:54.

reveals intimate details This month sees the 20th anniversary

:43:55.:43:55.

of the death of Princess Diana Channel 4 says the tapes

:43:56.:44:04.

are an important historical source and, though made in private,

:44:05.:44:11.

the subjects covered So whatever the rights and wrongs

:44:12.:44:13.

of this case, do the royal family Joining me now are Graham Smith,

:44:14.:44:17.

the chief executive of Republic. Robert Jobson is the royal editor

:44:18.:44:21.

of the London Evening Standard. And Bonnie Greer is

:44:22.:44:26.

a playwright and novelist. Robert, you have been covering the

:44:27.:44:38.

Royal family for 30 years or so, is this an invasion of privacy?

:44:39.:44:43.

LAUGHTER Is it an invasion of privacy?

:44:44.:44:49.

Possibly. Possibly. Would you like to see these tapes? I have seen

:44:50.:44:54.

them. I have seen the show. If you wanted to watch the tapes, if you

:44:55.:44:59.

have a phone or a home computer you can do it now. If you lived in

:45:00.:45:04.

America you would have already seen most of this. The actual programme

:45:05.:45:08.

which Channel 4 allowed me to see because I was commentating on it for

:45:09.:45:12.

the national newspapers is good, it is very well made and Diana is the

:45:13.:45:20.

person that brings light to the rather sombre mood of the film. But

:45:21.:45:23.

the principal... Once they were sold by Peter settle into NBC, they have

:45:24.:45:28.

been licensed by Channel 4. It is as technical as that. It goes back to

:45:29.:45:33.

the Paul Burrell court case. Paul Burrell gathered all this stuff, put

:45:34.:45:39.

it into a loft, that led to a case that collapsed. It was left to

:45:40.:45:43.

Scotland Yard to return these tapes to their rightful owners. It went to

:45:44.:45:57.

Peter Setland, was it morally right? Is it right that those tapes are

:45:58.:46:01.

being shown on national television? Yes, if you don't like... You are a

:46:02.:46:07.

journalist, you would say that. If you don't like it, they have been

:46:08.:46:12.

seen on television at MBC, it is in the computer, turn over, they will

:46:13.:46:16.

not have that many viewers anyway. You don't have to watch it. You

:46:17.:46:21.

asked whether it is moral for Channel 4 to screen it, I think it

:46:22.:46:32.

is in the public interest, I think it is intrusive. Those poor young

:46:33.:46:34.

men... Who have just made their own film. Let's let Christina speak.

:46:35.:46:40.

Dated, and we all know that Diana was a very troubled woman -- they

:46:41.:46:44.

did. We know she had an eating disorder and she was so insecure she

:46:45.:46:49.

had all kinds of crushes on members of staff, basically, because she was

:46:50.:46:53.

so lonely and very unhappy. We know that. Facing the 20th anniversary of

:46:54.:46:58.

her death we could have a bit more respect for somebody who probably

:46:59.:47:03.

died, essentially, because of prurient press interest into her

:47:04.:47:09.

private life. And a drunk driver. Yes, but... There is no question her

:47:10.:47:14.

life was made an absolute misery by the paparazzi pursuing her. We could

:47:15.:47:19.

do more honour to her memory. Bonnie? In law there is something

:47:20.:47:25.

called expectation of privacy, which applies in this situation. She was

:47:26.:47:29.

with a therapist and it is like this all, if we go to our doctor or

:47:30.:47:35.

therapist we expect privacy. This was the situation. So she spoke in

:47:36.:47:44.

that atmosphere. That is what is immoral, if we are going to use that

:47:45.:47:47.

word. It goes back to the original seller of the tape. If we look at

:47:48.:47:51.

it, we have participated in it. We have the right to do it but we are

:47:52.:47:55.

participating in the invasion of privacy. She did not, unfortunately,

:47:56.:48:01.

live very long. We do not know what her impact on history will be, if

:48:02.:48:06.

any, but it is a private tape and it is not right. It was the boy 's cut

:48:07.:48:12.

-- voice coach and she spoke to. Crostini are touched on William and

:48:13.:48:16.

Harry, they are normal people with normal feelings, I have spoken to

:48:17.:48:23.

them. I would not want my dead mother's tapes to be released, would

:48:24.:48:27.

you? Historians and journalists have described the Royal household is

:48:28.:48:31.

more secretive than the CIA and MI5. The idea of giving them more secrecy

:48:32.:48:36.

is back to front. It is not a private family, it was not the

:48:37.:48:40.

journalists, it was the monarchy, institution and the Royal household

:48:41.:48:44.

who caused the trauma for Princess Diana. There is a public interest in

:48:45.:48:48.

judging this institution, which is largely shielded behind a fairly

:48:49.:48:52.

sympathetic press and official secrecy to look about the closed

:48:53.:48:56.

doors and safe who are these people? Who is the Queen who is running this

:48:57.:48:59.

institution? Who are the people around them? Why do we

:49:00.:49:13.

have the right to private details? It is a public institution, the

:49:14.:49:15.

Queen as head of state, the Royal household are on the public payroll.

:49:16.:49:18.

All the public... Gory details? I do not think we should have the

:49:19.:49:21.

monarchy at all, there is no separation between private and

:49:22.:49:24.

public. The family has been constitutional eyes than they

:49:25.:49:27.

exploit their own private life for their own game. I don't have an

:49:28.:49:37.

argument about that birds Victoria's youngest daughter burned all of her

:49:38.:49:41.

diaries. These are public people but I would dispute whether Diana will

:49:42.:49:45.

wind up in the historical record or not, she did not live long enough,

:49:46.:49:50.

we do not know. This might be of interest to know about the future

:49:51.:49:53.

king and the future king after that, then maybe. It is just not history.

:49:54.:50:00.

It is a young woman... St Kitts will not learn about Princess Diana in

:50:01.:50:07.

100 years? -- so kids Will not learn? I don't think that Princess

:50:08.:50:11.

Diana's opinion of their husband and son, who will both be the monarch...

:50:12.:50:17.

We might want to judge King Charles, the next king, who is this man?!

:50:18.:50:24.

Let's listen to Graham. We have a right to know who our head of state

:50:25.:50:28.

will be, we should really have a right to choose. Then what? And then

:50:29.:50:35.

get rid of them. Robert? You were talking about President Trump, an

:50:36.:50:40.

elected man. Your country has annihilated this man. You don't want

:50:41.:50:44.

him to be President, you look into everything about his life. Can you

:50:45.:50:49.

criticise us for wanting to know the saying? I did not say criticise, I

:50:50.:50:56.

am talking about her intent. She was advised... Listen to Bonnie, Robert.

:50:57.:51:03.

She was in a therapeutic situation. She was not. Listen to Bonnie. All I

:51:04.:51:10.

have read... She was not. Robert, you had to listen to her. You might

:51:11.:51:15.

have more information, but most people would believe to be true...

:51:16.:51:20.

Alexia this information. Number one, he is not a therapist, he is an

:51:21.:51:25.

actor. She was advised not to give him those tapes, number two, and she

:51:26.:51:30.

did. Her bodyguard said give it back to her, he did. It was after the

:51:31.:51:36.

Burrell case that Scotland Yard decreed that the tapes belonged to

:51:37.:51:42.

Setland, who sold them, he is immoral, no one else. Christina?

:51:43.:51:48.

Diana was a human being. We are talking about at moral issue. She

:51:49.:51:52.

was a human being with the right to a certain amount of privacy. What a

:51:53.:51:57.

very unhappy woman said to a voice coach in private about her six life

:51:58.:52:02.

is not necessary for us to know about and I think it is an absolute

:52:03.:52:06.

abomination and disgrace. That is all we have time for, thank you. She

:52:07.:52:09.

said a lot more than that... The L'Arche community began

:52:10.:52:13.

in France more than 50 years ago. It enables people with learning

:52:14.:52:15.

difficulties to live and work with others in an environment

:52:16.:52:18.

that is supportive and inclusive. There are now 146 L'Arche

:52:19.:52:20.

communities in 35 countries, and Marine Baig has been to visit

:52:21.:52:22.

one in Kent. I am in Canterbury, Kent, and I have

:52:23.:52:33.

got here just in time for breakfast. I will be joining Elenor, Chris,

:52:34.:52:44.

Scott and Vitak. I am helping with toast. This is supported

:52:45.:52:49.

accommodation run by the faith -based charity L'Arche. Most of the

:52:50.:52:53.

charity's residents have learning disabilities, although not all.

:52:54.:52:58.

Scott is completing a degree at Bristol University when he developed

:52:59.:53:05.

a rare and limiting brain condition. # All the lonely people

:53:06.:53:12.

# Where do they all belong? Wow! You did a history degree? What

:53:13.:53:18.

university? Bristol. How old were you? 1987. It left him needing 24

:53:19.:53:31.

hour support from the charity's staff and volunteers.

:53:32.:53:39.

# You can dance... Not all the residents require full-time care,

:53:40.:53:44.

some are semi-independent. Caroline lives in her own self-contained

:53:45.:53:48.

flat. How do you find living here independently compared to...? Very,

:53:49.:53:55.

very different speakers here is just me and one other assistant, over

:53:56.:54:00.

that there are seven, seven people and three or four macro live in. Do

:54:01.:54:07.

you find it better? Much better. I have my own kitchen, my sitting

:54:08.:54:11.

room, dining area, I can come and go when I want, come back when I want.

:54:12.:54:18.

Everyday, residents are involved in work or activities, as I am about to

:54:19.:54:23.

discover in the workshop. Hello, I am Marine. Lovely to meet

:54:24.:54:29.

you. They sell much of the Kraftwerk and

:54:30.:54:37.

receive a share of the profits. I am doing needle felting. I have

:54:38.:54:42.

ever done that before. Will you teach me? -- I have never done that

:54:43.:54:51.

before. I have a needle, I am pricking it and making sure it stays

:54:52.:54:56.

in. You get one of these, choose the colours that you want. OK. I love

:54:57.:55:04.

being creative, making things. It is really not as easy as it looks. I am

:55:05.:55:11.

getting better at this. I did tell you, didn't I? You were right!

:55:12.:55:23.

L'Arche was found in France in 1964. This particular community was

:55:24.:55:31.

founded ten years later and was the first in the UK. One of its earliest

:55:32.:55:35.

residents was Peter. Pictured here on the right in 1975.

:55:36.:55:41.

He was supported by a volunteer called Maggie, pictured in the

:55:42.:55:47.

middle. They became firm friends. That is you, Pete, looking at the

:55:48.:55:55.

cameraman. It is where L'Arche started, I was visiting for the

:55:56.:56:01.

first time. More than 40 years later, Maggie and Pete are still

:56:02.:56:06.

close friends. Pete, we have been friends since 1975, because that

:56:07.:56:11.

supper evening in the garden was when I first visited. You have been

:56:12.:56:15.

a really good friend to me. I would say that one of the reasons I like

:56:16.:56:20.

having you as a friend all this time is because you let me be myself. You

:56:21.:56:27.

do. I have come to meet them both to find out what it is about L'Arche

:56:28.:56:30.

that made their friendship so special. Nice to meet you. Thank

:56:31.:56:36.

you. Can you believe you have been friends for so long? We always hit

:56:37.:56:45.

it off. Pete has a great wit. What do you like about Maggie? You make

:56:46.:56:57.

me a cup of tea. You make me a cup of tea! How has L'Arche helped you?

:56:58.:57:03.

It struck me that it was fun. There was not understand them, we were

:57:04.:57:07.

human beings in the same community learning from other.

:57:08.:57:13.

Now Pete and I are meeting up with Caroline, Elenor, Chris and Scott

:57:14.:57:18.

and other members for a barbecue. While the food is cooking, I catch

:57:19.:57:23.

up with Louise Carter, a national coordinator at L'Arche. We are ten

:57:24.:57:27.

communities in the UK and probably support around 300 people with

:57:28.:57:31.

learning disabilities in different ways. We are Christian ecumenical

:57:32.:57:35.

communities but we welcome people of all faiths and none, and it is

:57:36.:57:39.

people with disabilities that drive and shape community life in their

:57:40.:57:49.

desires and hopes for how they want to live.

:57:50.:57:50.

Now time for food. Potato salad? Caroline is on salad and I am on

:57:51.:57:53.

sweetcorn. I have been privileged to make some wonderful new friends here

:57:54.:57:56.

and now there is nothing more to do than seeing the afternoon away.

:57:57.:58:02.

# We're all going on a summer holiday

:58:03.:58:07.

# No more wary for a week or two # Fern and laughter on a summer

:58:08.:58:11.

holiday # No more worries for me and you

:58:12.:58:13.

# For a week or two... That's nearly all

:58:14.:58:16.

from us for this week. But Emma will be carrying

:58:17.:58:18.

on the conversation online. Yes, I'll be talking

:58:19.:58:20.

to Robert Jobson about his nearly three decades of work covering

:58:21.:58:22.

the royal family. Log on to

:58:23.:58:24.

facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive In the meantime, from everyone

:58:25.:58:26.

here in the studio and the whole

:58:27.:58:33.

Sean Fletcher and Emma Barnett present thought-provoking debate and instant audience reaction on the big ethical talking points of the week, together with roving reports from around the UK.