How tough should we be on British jihadists? Sean Fletcher and Emma Barnett lead debate. Also on the programme is singer Russell Watson.
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Welcome to Sunday Morning Live.
I'm Sean Fletcher.
On today's programme: As fighters
for so-called Islamic State
filter back into the UK,
we ask how tough should we be
on British jihadists?
Unpaid internships and
Are young people being
exploited at work?
And singer Russell Watson, starring
in a new musical about Adam and Eve,
tells us how to sound like God.
Well, sometimes he can be very
quiet. And then of course there is
the booming angry voice.
All that coming up and Emma Barnett
is here ready to sample your views.
We want you to be
part of our debates.
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in touch please don't forget
to include your name so I can get
you involved in our discussions.
Jewish families are being encouraged
to respect the Sabbath
and a new poll suggests that
an increasing number of Christians
don't keep Sunday special.
Is it time to claim
back the day of rest?
And Mehreen Baig explores forest
bathing, a new way to de-stress.
It is actually quite nice.
As the so-called Islamic State
crumbles in Syria and Iraq,
security forces are concerned
about what risk those who fought
or are still fighting for
the extremist organisation present.
Foreign Office minister Rory Stewart
caused headlines earlier this week
when he said that the only way
of dealing with fighters
on the ground will be,
in almost every case,
to kill them.
But what about those
who return here?
Around half of the estimated 850
people from the UK who went out
to support the jihadists are thought
to be back already.
How tough should we be
on British jihadists?
Joining us now to give their views
are Chris Phillips, former head
of the National Counter Terrorism
Security Office, Yasmine Ahmed,
director of Rights Watch UK,
Sirena Bergman, a journalist,
and Luke Gittos,
a lawyer and a writer.
These are British citizens we are
talking about. Shouldn't we be
giving them a second chance?
are not British citizens. They have
elected to join a fighting foreign
force and I think we need to
recognise that we are at war with
Islamic State. They have elected to
go to war not just against us but
against our values. I think there
are problems with denying them
British citizenship but to call them
British citizens and to assume that
they are entitled to the same due
process protections as you and I is
completely bizarre. It is completely
strange that politicians are
obsessed with due process. British
citizens who have been accused of
terrorism in the past have had their
civil liberties stripped away from
them for years and it is only now
when we start talking about blowing
up people who have demonstrably gone
to fight for a foreign army, that we
are talking about due process. I
think this moment is very strange
and it speaks to moral cowardice. If
you have the opportunity to take out
foreign fighters, do it.
about British values, we don't have
the death penalty. Why are we
talking about killing them?
a clear difference between the death
penalty and killing someone with
whom you are at war and we need to
make that distinction. Isis are
organisation with whom we are at
war, I repeat, and to apply the same
due process protections to foreign
competitions as we were too is the
citizen accused of a crime in this
country is bizarre. -- as we would
to citizens accused of a crime in
this country is bizarre.
We have got
to make tough choices, so surely it
is the right thing to do?
thing to say is it is a convex issue
and nobody can deny that. It is
important to say that as British
society, we have certain values that
we must uphold, and that is what
distinguishes us from other people.
Luke says they are not British
They are values that
should be universal values and part
of those values is about
transparency and the government
being transparent and accountable
about its policies. What I think
it's really problematic is the
government essentially saying it
will be very difficult to prosecute
these people when they come back to
the UK. And this is very ambiguous
and where we need transparency, so
potentially we could kill anybody
who is supportive of Isis in Syria.
We have got to leave the door open
that people might return. And
definitely there is prosecution that
is an option and other options when
people return. But we have also got
to know that it is incredibly
important as a society to live up to
our own values and one of those
values is complying with the rule of
law. While you are correct that we
are in a non-international armed
conflict with Syria in Iraq, it does
not mean that anybody there can be
killed. When we start losing our own
values, there is not much to
distinguish us. One further point
out like to make. Constantly within
this debate there is this idea that
national security and human rights
are juxtaposition and they cannot
sit together. But if you look
consistently to the past, you will
see that in fact human rights
reinforces security. Security
Council's counterterrorism committee
said that when you take measures
that are not in line with human
rights, it can drive people to
So it creates a problem.
If southerly has gone to fight for
so-called Islamic State, they have
signed up to a brutal ideology. Some
people at home will be watching and
they will feel that these people
should not be allowed back in our
That is a separate issue
and when I do not agree with either
but the idea we would kill them that
they stem from an ideology that we
think is reprehensible leads to a
slippery slope. We can't decide some
people should be stripped of their
civil liberties purely because we
don't agree with the reasons behind
But it is a brutal
ideology. We are not just talking
about criminals here. Serious issues
and serious things. And attempting
to set up a state.
That is true. And
one of the arguments was that
terrorist organisations are trying
to take us back to a seventh century
state and they have announced their
right to British citizenship. But
what is it we are doing if we are
arguing we should just kill people
because we think they might have
committed crimes that it would be
difficult to trying them? Surely
what we are doing is equally
regressive and problematic? If we
strip those values from people we
don't agree with, how long before
they are stripped from people we
just don't agree with?
The idea that
Isis is comparable to any other
organisation is bizarre.
declared war on western values. The
sooner we recognise that we should
be defending western values and
violently where necessary, that is a
There are rules in
There are rules
and we should comply with them.
killing everyone? Let him finish.
Those rules do not prevent us from
striking Isis fighters, they just
I find it personally
effective that it is a western value
to strip people of civil liberties
and killed them simply because their
crimes in your judgment are worse
than other people's.
Isis's crimes are worse than other
people's. It is bizarre to me that I
have got to convince people that
Isis with killing.
That is bizarre.
Chris is a former counterterrorism
officer. You might think it is
easier to stop worrying about these
people. Is it right to kill them
before they get here?
The thing about the internet is
nobody went to join Isis without
knowing exactly what they were up
to. They were up for killing people,
throwing people off blocks of flats,
beheading people, setting people on
fire. They went to join an
organisation into mass murder.
these are young people who may have
That is their choice.
They have chosen to go to a place
putting themselves in danger, a war
zone. If they die over there, so be
it. What we need to be careful of
here is pontificating about the
difficulties of prosecuting and the
enormous difficulties of actually
finding out what has happened in
Syria. It will take generations to
find out who committed crimes. In
the meantime we are talking about
allowing people back to our country
to live next door to you, who may
have committed mass murder. And we
have got to be aware that terrorism
is not going to go away. This will
be with us for generations to come.
We will talk about the implications
of jihadists returning here in a
moment but ever had a guest who can
move this on. -- Emma has a guest.
With me now is Zahed Ammanullah,
who works for an organisation that
carries out research and analysis
to try and develop ways
to counter extremism.
What do you think should happen to
British citizens who have gone out
to so-called Islamic State?
being lost in the discussion is that
many of these people who are coming
back, if we can detain or arrest
them for assisting Isis, there is a
huge opportunity there to find out
what their radicalisation process
was and what we can learn to prevent
this happening again. Isis might be
on the back foot but the phenomenon
of streamers and will continue and
we should understand it. --
extremism will continue. Why did it
resonate with them? We have got to
be clinically objective about this
and really understand what will work
to prevent other people from
succumbing to this in the future.
What makes you think that they will
share that information with you? To
be clear, do you think they should
come back, be prosecuted, and then
somebody like yourself goes to
Absolutely. Many of
these people have already committed
crimes in terms of assisting a
terrorist organisation materially.
And murder. Of course. Of the
systems we have, they deserve due
process, but if we are able to
understand their motivations...
Anecdotally, a lot of these people
coming back are disillusioned and
they are willing to cooperate. We
have seen models in other parts of
Europe, like Denmark, where this
process has been tested. A lot of
people have given information that
has been useful in determining how
to dissuade other young people in
the future from going down the same
That is the process you would
favour at many people getting in
touch think they don't want to go
down that route. You see it as an
opportunity. Even if these people
are disillusioned, what evidence do
you have that they can be
rehabilitated and they don't just go
into the prison system and cause
more people to become disillusioned
We have got the
process in the UK, like Prevent, who
are doing with these issues and
people who are at risk, and people
who are arrested and imprisoned, and
their rehabilitation programmes
taking place where we have seen
success. The important thing is to
learn from this and make sure we
don't just lock them up and pretend
like we don't know why these people
went down this path. There is a lot
of information from a psychological
standpoint that we need to
understand. From our point of view
as an organisation, we manage a
network of form extremists who
provide resources for us, and we
have tested messaging at risk
individuals using the insight we
have gained from these individuals,
and seen that we can see some
positive impact on at risk
individuals if you use that
information to dissuade them.
got to leave it there. Thank you
very much. We should see this as an
opportunity? Very interesting to
hear him talking about the cycle of
recruitment happening again. Luke,
an opportunity to learn from
jihadists returning and we don't
want it to happen again.
what you might stand to learn. These
people will be deeply unreliable
witnesses, as we say in the law.
They will have motivation to give
unreliable information. I am not
convinced that we stand to learn an
enormous amount from someone coming
back from a war zone who has
committed themselves to destroying
our values. The idea that that
learning process should take
precedence over taking them out of
the picture completely betrays a
complete moral cowardice.
that history will repeat itself if
we don't learn from the situation.
We need to win the war with Isis
first and the idea that we would
spend our time learning about their
psychology before defeating them
shows bizarre priorities.
would you assess the risk we face
from these returning jihadists?
have got to face the fact that we
cannot stop people coming back. We
have been unable to stop people
coming back. They are already here.
Of course we have got to learn from
them and understand what turned them
to that ideology, but also we have
got to deal with the people who are
real threat and the risk these
people face. We are at the beginning
of this terrorism problem. It is not
going to go away. We are going to
have very large-scale terrorist
going to be the case. So can't we
learn from these people to stop it
Of course. But what
do we do with those people who will
not be changed? We do not have the
police and security services to
monitor those people who are already
here, so how can we deal with an
influx of more people?
How big is the risk? Are you
worried? I am very worried. I have
been worried for a long time about
the risk of terrorism and
large-scale vehicle bombs which kill
hundreds if not thousands of people.
We could have seen that just a few
weeks ago in Barcelona when they
intended to make a large vehicle
bomb which could have killed
hundreds if not thousands of people.
These things are going to happen
unfortunately at some stage in our
future and we have got to protect
ourselves and make sure that those
people who are the highest risk are
not allowed to come harm us.
is a balancing between human rights
and the risk to our country. How do
you get that balance right?
Absolutely that it is interesting
that Chris is talking about stopping
people coming back. Surely we want
to do the opposite? People who have
gone to fight on Isis's behalf, we
want them to come back. If they have
been groomed, if they have been
naive in the reasons why they have
gone, they didn't understand the
consequences, we want them to come
back and we want to encourage them
to reintegrate into society. When we
have divisive rhetoric about kill
them all, that is not helpful.
they know what they were getting
into, we all do.
It is easy to say
that sitting on the sofa. But how
people groomed when they are
vulnerable, perhaps with mental
health issues? They may have grown
up in a world where they don't
understand nuances that we can talk
about. It is easy to say they knew
what they were getting into and that
is the reality.
When they come back, they will have
the same problems and we will have
to deal with them on the streets and
have terrorist attacks.
Not if we rehabilitate them.
says they should be let back in, the
British judicial system should throw
the whole weight of the law at them
to show it will not be tolerated.
Daniela says we need to stop the
problem at the beginning, education
is key in helping people we seek
falling under the spell. Peter says
they should face treason
charges, dual nationality, strip
them of British nationality, deport
them back to where they have come
from and banned them from coming
Maureen says we cannot treat them
harshly enough, they are barbaric
animals and if they are happy to
live by the sword they can be happy
to die by it. They do not deserve to
be tried under the British system.
Maureen says live by the sword, die
by the sword. You confident we can
find a solution?
As I said at the
beginning it is extremely complex,
anybody working in this space needs
to acknowledge that. We need to
acknowledge and be very careful
about taking very simple narratives
on this, because it is very complex.
Well one reaction is to keep
ourselves safe, I think we need to
realise that forgoing our values and
human rights and the rule of law
will not keep us safe in the long
run. When we make these kinds of
decisions about the policies that
the Government will employ to keep
the British citizens safe, we need
to think about not only immediate
issues but the long run.
Certainly we are at war in a
non-international armed conflict
with Isis. That allows those people
participating in the hostility, it
allows us a right to potentially
kill those people. But what we also
need to recognise is that, for
example, there is territory in Iraq
and Syria being taken back over by
the government and people are
potentially surrendering, there are
opportunities where people say I am
no longer here. We just killing
everyone that? There needs to be a
complexity of tools used, one of
them as people returning. If there
is any opportunity to prosecute the
individuals, they should be.
But there needs to be space for
people to potentially go through
de-radicalisation, if that is an
opportunity that can be taken
Chris, you painted a
bleak picture before?
disagree with any of that, they are
people in the battlefield, they
should be killed, that is the way of
the world, unfortunately. When they
come back, and they already have, we
have to deal with them. But
legislation in the Western free
democratic societies does not allow
others to deal with people this way
inclined, it just does not.
Even when they go to prison they are
released very quickly and they are a
major threat to society.
Thank you to the panel, very
He started out as a worker in a nuts
and bolts factory and ended up
singing for presidents and the Pope.
Along the way, Russell Watson picked
up the nickname The Voice.
Now he's playing the voice
of God in Heaven on Earth,
a new musical about Adam and Eve.
Samanthi Flanagan went
to meet Russell to ask him
about playing the Almighty,
and the part faith
plays in his life.
Let's go back to the beginning, you
started your working life in a nuts
and bolts factory in Salford, and
now you are about to be the voice of
God, you have come a long way!
quite a transition!. Everything that
has happened in my life, with regard
to my career, was almost stumbled
upon. I remember the night I was out
with my friends, it was 1990 and it
was The Railway In, a few pints of
beer. Go long, Russell, get up and
That was a radio talent
Yes, next thing I know I
have won, I am walking into the
factory, the shop floor, where I had
been for eight or nine years, that
as it is, I am leaving, I am going
to be a singer!
You had a real nuts and bolts
training in the working men's clubs
I did nine years in the
working men's clubs, it was a long,
hard battle and a slog and a lot of
the time I felt like I was banging
my head against the proverbial brick
wall and I was not going to get
The big break came when you are
asked to sing at a big football
match, Manchester United, tell me
To walk out on that her fans look
around and hear the crowd on the
bows, a few weeks before I had been
singing in a working men's club to
30 or 40 people -- to hear the crowd
and the buzz.
-- and when I
hit the top notes of Nessun Dorma,
the crowd was cheering, I just
Those moments were just the start.
You have sown in front of world
leaders, a private audience with
Pope John Paul?
They build it as a
private audience with Pope John Paul
II, 3500 specially invited
dignitaries and around 500 people...
Million people watching across
Europe, a private audience. --
around 500 million people watching
in Europe. I could not believe I was
there, amazing. From my perspective
at the time it was a massive thrill,
but at that particular moment in
time, my career was rolling and I
was selling millions of records all
over the world...
# In a restless world, like this is.
# Love has ended before it's begun.
I was in a place where, if I'm being
honest, I wasn't really taking my
spirituality, my religion, that
serious. That's me being honest.
Then, of course, a few years later
when the wheels came off the wagon,
then I turn to spirituality.
The opera singer Russell Watson is
undergoing emergency surgery to
treat a tumour which is bleeding
into his brain.
It was only after I had recognised
how close I was to death that I
realised there are more important
things in life than being number one
and being the bestseller. And that
is when I took my step into faith
and religion and belief.
Now, looking back with hindsight, if
it hadn't happened, I wouldn't be
the person I am today, and the
person I am today is a better person
than the one that existed ten years
We mention that you have sown in
front of many important people on
earth, you have also had your voice
broadcast into space?
We got a call
from Nasa, as you do. We thought it
was a wind-up at first. One of our
probes is about to go past Pluto and
we would like to beam a signal of
Russell up to the probe to wake the
probe up... I was like, fantastic. I
sang the theme tune from Star Trek
Enterprise and they wanted to use
that to wake up the probe.
New Horizons, your adventure, Pluto,
awaits. Safe travels. God bless.
# It's been a long road.
# Getting from there to here.
So I proudly announced on social
media that my voice would be heard
furthest from planet Earth than any
other boys in the history of
mankind. And somebody tweeted back,
and that's where Richard stay!
From Earth to space to the heavens,
you are now going to be playing the
voice of God in a new stage musical?
I like the way you did that
there was method.
It is a new arena tour of a musical
called Heaven on Earth, it starts
next month in Birmingham. The
singers is the dancers have started
working together, it is a big cast.
And the story, in essence, is about
Adam and Eve, that story, to me, was
a story of a father and his
children, and that is something that
I can relate very well too. And that
is how I initially undertook the
role, it is not necessarily of this
booming voice. Sometimes he can be
very quiet... And then, of course,
there is the booming, angry voice!
When Adam finally betrays him and
eats from the forbidden tree...
Hasn't had any effect on your own
interpretation of your faith or
relationship with God? -- has it
My faith, my interpretation of
God, I believe there is a God and I
hope there is somewhere after life
for us to go. I hope that, but I am
not categorically certain that there
That is faith.
Russell, thank you.
It has been
a real pleasure, thank you.
Russell Watson - the voice of God.
Still to come on Sunday
How a Christian group is trying
to take the spooks out of Halloween.
I thought it would be interesting to
have different shapes, just to
convey a different message.
Are young people being
exploited at work?
A proposal before Parliament
at the moment seeks to limit unpaid
internships to a maximum
of four weeks.
Up to 15,000 graduates and others
a year are estimated to be
on unpaid work experience.
And young people figure
prominently among those working
on zero-hours contracts.
That's where employees work only
when they are needed by employers -
such as delivery companies -
often at short notice.
Around 300,000 16 to 24-year-olds
are on those terms.
Are we looking at valuable work
experience and efficient ways
of working or exploitation?
Joining me now are Mags Dewhurst,
vice-president of the Independent
Workers' Union of Great Britain,
Adam Henderson, a consultant
on millenial workers, Raef Bjayou,
a businessman and former contestant
on The Apprentice, and still
with us is Luke Gittos.
Adam, flexible working should give
you much more freedom than a 95, the
is you don't have a guarantee of
when your next job would be. Do
young people prefer that job
It is all to do with
choice. If you have chosen to become
an entrepreneur and go out on your
own and take the terms of your work
based on your talent and what you
want to do then, yes, it is really
great, but if you are forced to do
it because are no full-time jobs
available and you are having to work
during the day at one job and in the
evening at another and the weekend
at another just to scrape a living,
there is a difference in terms of
the flexibility. Choice is key.
your experience, do more young
people prefer the flexibility?
Again, it comes down to whether they
have chosen it or not. From a
millennial perspective, they want
flexible working, with three
quarters saying that is really
important to them, but at the same
time it is on their terms than they
are doing it as part of a better
worklife balance as opposed to just
doing it to bring in enough money to
fade -- feed themselves or put a
roof over their heads.
went to a tribunal to win the right
to be recognised as a worker, you
are a cycle career, meaning you
qualify for basic rights and the
minimum wage. But the broader issue,
what is at the root of your
I think my main concern is
there is now a shift taking place,
and although I agree with some of
what Adam said it is not really
about a generational choice. I think
flexibility is being offered to
people in lieu of other perks that
would normally be a decent wage,
enough to live on, enough to save,
enough for a pension, and for rent,
enough to cover the cost of actually
doing the job. All of those things
were offered to people decades ago
with proper self-employment, that
was seen as the cost benefit ratio,
but now it is becoming the norm and
it is flooding into all these
different sectors and I am worried
that unscrupulous employers are
taking advantage of people by saying
we are going to pay you just about
the National Minimum Wage but you
can work whenever you want, but make
sure you work at these times because
this is the only time he will make
money. I am afraid that is not good
Luke, our employers having their
cake and eating it? The current
system is undermining the basic
rights of people and job security?
It is complicated, the aspects which
embrace choice are good that this
generation, the millennial
generation, who spend more time in
education, broke Sample, can fit
owning money around doing a degree,
part-time education or similar --
who spend more time in education,
for example, and can fit owning many
around. But some employers take
advantage, we need better employers
and better jobs. But the way we talk
about zero-hours contracts often
paints millenials or young people in
the workplace as victims of these
awful companies forcing them to work
flexibly and it is a lot more
complicated than that. Often if you
want to live a flexible life,
flexible working can be good. It is
just as exploitative to force people
to go to work when there is no work
to do, which often happens in
salaried work. People can go to work
even though they don't really need
to be there. Flexible working take
something out of that.
about the zero others, what about
work experience and unpaid
We have serious obstacles not just
to agree about to education already.
-- not just to a career. I don't
think we need any other economic
barriers. What I find peculiar that
the debate over whether interns
should or should not be paid, if we
are simply saying that those of us
who think all interns should be
paid, and the social mobility
commission says there should be a
period four weeks, we think that if
you do an honest day's work, you
should have paid to you an honest
day's salary. Whether it is three
weeks, four, or six months.
is an option to to learn about the
job and you are not as good about a
It is an opportunity
to live. I am not suggesting the
salary should be pegged to a fully
fledged employee, but I am
suggesting it is fair. Companies are
founded on principles and one of
them is that they pay for services
of value. If you are suggesting that
you're in turn is of value and is
carrying out work that is valuable,
then they need to be paid for it. --
your intern. And if the work is of
no value, you shouldn't be engaging
with them in the first place.
With me now is Robyn Vinter,
who runs a news website aimed
at young people under 30,
the so-called millenials.
Unpaid interns form an important
part of your staff, so why do you
There is a broad range of
things, really. Mostly because I
can't afford to have a full team of
people. Partly it is because I
started in an internship. I want to
give that same kind of opportunities
to other people as well.
How long do
people work for you with no pay?
Three weeks. We have put a strict
limit on it three weeks. We think
that is enough time for them to
learn about the business and learn
what they need to do, and not to
take too much advantage of them and
take too much out of their career,
Are you surprised that
you have ended up using them?
felt very strongly from the start
that I was going to make sure that
everybody who works for me will be
paid, interns and everybody else,
and a lot of people told me that was
not sustainable and you need to
start off with people who will work
for free. Yeah. Then I started to
realise that actually that is true.
There is a definite line between
between them getting a lot out of it
as well. That is one thing.
been surprised sometimes that when
you do give young people
opportunities, have you been
surprised by their response?
started strongly thinking that
millenials needed more opportunities
and students just need to be given
the chance, that is definitely true
of some people. But some of them I
have been very surprised. People
have applied for an internship and I
have said come along, what days are
you free? And they don't reply. One
person replied, and then when I
confirmed that it was unpaid, he
said I don't work for free.
googled him just to see. I thought
he might be the son of an earl or
something. Michael -- I googled him
and he was not famous so good luck
to him. Some reality is that you
have learned from setting up your
own business. Disillusionment with
young people. It sounds like she has
had bad experiences with young
people. Some people accuse the
younger generation of not having as
much graft as older generations.
What is your experience?
collision of generations has been
around since the dawn of time. My
experience from my work in PR and
marketing is that there are some
great millenials, as there are some
not great millenials, but that is
the same and true of other
generations as well. I think they
get a very bad rap, and I think one
of the reasons for that is the world
of work is changing. It really is
changing at a page that I don't
think we had in our minds at all. --
at a pace. Millenials are beginning
to realise that they feel they have
been taken advantage of, many of
them, and they are consciously aware
of what they should be entitled to.
I think that has been misconstrued
as being too precious for the
workplace, for lack of a better
And that is not acceptable. Is
there a problem with unpaid
internships? You can only do that if
you can afford it and if mum and dad
can pay the rent. If you have not
got that money, you will not do an
I think you are
selling working-class young people
short. People can strive. People are
capable of doing an unpaid
internship and making it work.
Unpaid internships are the great
social leveller. They mean people
can compete in a meritocracy.
is absolutely ridiculous!
only way to get a job at a newspaper
to do an unpaid internship in
London, a working-class child in the
north of England is going to
struggle much more than somebody,
rich kid from west London.
that is true, it is absolutely true.
But the problem is we are now
denying them the opportunity to
struggle and to make it work for
themselves. I think that is
patronising and wrong. In law
especially, my industry, working
class kids will not get the
opportunity to prove themselves as
competent and forthright because
they will not have the same network,
the same opportunity. If you
formalise unpaid internships, they
won't exist. Small firms like us, if
you make us pay our interns, we just
can't offer it.
Young people are
online a lot. What are they saying?
Bobby says I did many months of
unpaid work when I left university
and I found it deeply satisfying and
I got a pudding in my chosen
industry and when I moved up to paid
work I appreciated it more. -- I got
a footing. Linda says there are
sacrifices to be made and if you
will not show willing at work for
free, somebody else will happily.
Naomi says that working for free
makes you appear worthless. Only
people with a rich mummy and daddy
can enter certain industries. Donna
says if you work for free, you drive
down the wages that can be earned
across the board. People need to
show solidarity with each other.
Thank you for your messages. Naomi
says only people with a rich mummy
and daddy can do the internships.
Respond to that.
With all due
respect, Luke, I think what you are
saying is ridiculous! It is not
patronising. It is trying to level
the playing field. It is massively
advantageous to some people and
massively disadvantageous to other
people. And that is a class thing, a
gender thing, a race thing, a
massive intersection between all of
these things. Of course there are no
answers for voluntary organisations,
charities and small businesses. --
nuances. But we have seen across the
board that young people are doing
more work for less money than the
generations before them. That means
that the entire economy is shifting
into a low wage economy, which has a
section of massive unpaid labour.
Something needs to be done about
I am afraid we are out of time
on this so you have had the final
word and I am glad that none of you
is on work experience here. Thank
Mindfulness, which aims to improve
resilience and mental health
by encouraging people to slow down
and pay attention to the moment,
has become very fashionable.
One group in Yorkshire has gone
a step further and you can now
de-stress with the help
of the trees.
It's all part of a Japanese-inspired
movement called forest bathing,
as Mehreen Baig discovered.
There are not many things more
relaxing than a day spent in the
countryside. Now a movement from
Japan has harnessed this natural
relaxant. It is known as Forest
bathing. But why travel halfway
around the world when you can do it
right here on your doorstep? I have
heard of bathing as a way to relax
and usually it involves hot water
and bubbles. But far from a warm
bath, right now I am in the middle
of a chilly forest. In Yorkshire. To
find out what it is all about, I am
meeting Emma Douglas who leads
Forest bathing sessions here. What
is Forest bathing?
It is a mercy
yourself in a wooded environment.
The Japanese term directly
translated to English is Forest
bathing. They have found that the
trees give off essential board oils
that reduce stress, aid with sleep
and pain. There is a huge benefit.
And who is it for? Absolutely
anybody can benefit. Throughout the
week Faith encourages everybody to
leave the worries of daily life and
join her on a walk through the
Check your arms and your legs
and your head.
To begin the session,
we need to loosen up.
We are going
to start with mindful walking.
Mindful walking, that seems simple
enough. It is actually really
pretty. To really connect with
nature, we are recommended to get
really stuck in. I invite you to
take off your shoes and socks. Now a
spot of paddling. And Faith turns it
up a notch and asks us to befriend a
Pick a tree, any tree, and
hang out with it for five minutes.
Just pick one.
I picked that one
because it looks lonely.
I am so terrible at shutting off. I
am touching the tree and I am
looking at my nails. It is so
peaceful. It is much more peaceful
than I expected it to be. I don't
know. I'm finding it really hard to
shut off and I find it a bit weird
to get to know a tree. It is
actually quite nice! I am not sure
if I have got the hang of this yet.
To understand more, I am going to
talk to someone who found forest
bathing a life changing experience.
After spending seven months on
active service in Iraq, Ken was
diagnosed with post-traumatic stress
disorder didn't kick in for me for a
long time. While you are on tour,
the training kicks in, and it is
when you come back to family life
that it is difficult to adjust after
being in that situation for so long.
When you started this, how bad was
My wife and daughter
moved out. I was constantly angry. I
didn't care about anything. I didn't
want to leave the house. I didn't
sleep at all. In 2015I went to see
my GP, he was incidentally ex-forces
and he got me straightaway. He said
I needed to speak to someone and
from there, I started the forest
bathing. I am so much more relaxed
and, within myself. I am back with
my wife and daughter now thanks to
the help I got through forest
It is amazing to hear how
far Ken has come. For him, spending
the time being mindful around nature
seems to have really benefited his
situation. I have enjoyed my time in
the woodland learning about forest
bathing. While I might find other
ways of relaxing a bit more
appealing, for the people here, it
really does seem to work.
Mehreen Baig chilling in Yorkshire.
Sticking with the theme
of getting away from it all,
this weekend Jewish families
are being encouraged
to make a special effort
to mark their Sabbath.
Shabbat UK is a celebration
of the Jewish day of rest and aims
to highlight the importance
of spending time with loved
ones and the community,
rather than being at work or online.
But it's not just an issue
for Jewish families.
A new survey suggests that
an increasing number of Christians
feel that four of the 10
commandments are no longer relevant,
including the need to keep
the Sabbath day holy.
With shops and DIY stores open,
less than one in three believe
in preserving Sunday
as a day of peace.
So is it important for all of us
to have a dedicated day
of rest and reflection,
or is the idea of the Sabbath
incompatible with modern lifestyles?
Here to discuss that
are Angela Epstein,
a broadcaster and writer,
Kathy Lette, a novelist,
Rev George Hargreaves,
a Christian campaigner,
and re-joining the panel
is journalist Sirena Berman.
Let's put aside the fact that we are
working on a Sunday! Are we losing
something if we lose the national
day of rest, the Sunday?
never a day of rest for women. Even
though we make up 50% of the
workforce, we were always doing 99%
of the childcare and has worked. If
you think of the Sunday roast, you
get up and you peel the vegetables.
I have cooked herds of beef, flocks
of lambs, schools of salmon, and it
is exhausting and I am totally
against going back to the day for
men and the day on for women.
should come back to my house because
I do the Sunday roast! Is it
unrealistic to expect everybody to
have the same day as a rest day?
As a Jewish person, my sabbath is,
if you like, Sundown to symptom.
Friday night to Saturday night I
have what you would call a digital
detox, no phones, no telly, we go to
synagogue, we have family meals, you
see friends and it is a trust, it
has been like that the generations
and it is almost like the Almighty,
if you buy into that, which I very
much do, had the great foresight to
realise that time would come when
humanity would evolve, when we
couldn't cope without plugging it in
or buying it. My favourite time of
the week is Friday afternoon,
everything gets switched off. What I
would say, ironically, even though I
have a 25 hour digital detox, I miss
Sunday being a day of rest, because
I'm very British as well as being
very Jewish. Shopping and trekking
around the town centre is the
default activity now. Before it was
like there was nothing else to do
except go to the park, go to the
countryside, have time with the
family. By 13-year-old will say can
we maybe go to the shops or
whatever. I say can we go to the
park? She is going, really?! We have
those quasi-American conversations.
Sirena, we talk about worklife
balance. Having a Sunday as a rest
day gives us that it forces us to
Arguably not, as was very
eloquently explained by Kathy. What
we need to think about in terms of
worklife balance is how the world
works today, not these regressive
ideas of looking back decades to the
past. Today it has been proven over
and over that flexible working,
remote working is so beneficial to
society as a whole, it makes people
more productive and happy and allows
us to develop a worklife balance in
our own terms, not on the terms of
the people perhaps looking at their
very specific situation.
very few people have Sunday as a
rest day, even Christians do not
I want to see the data.
I am with Angela, if the Almighty
said let's have a day off, I think
we are looking at the owners' manual
for how we should live. If we do not
think about it necessarily from a
religious point of view, I am not
for legislating religious practice,
I am dead against it, but from a
practical point of view, I can
remember an old song which said I
Wish It Could Be Christmas Every
Day. It could actually be Christmas
for 52 days of the year...
If we just have Sunday off.
Closed-end Tesco and Sainsbury's, we
deal with it at Christmas...
going to say is that Sunday rest has
become Sunday stress, what has
happened, nothing to do with
religion and legislating how
religiously you approach Sundays, I
do not suggest everyone has the
digital detox we have, but stepping
off the mouse wheel.
I like the
sound of 52 days of Christmas but I
am not sure that is in the Bible.
With me now is Matt Writtle,
a documentary photographer who has
just published a book of photos
of things we get up to on a Sunday.
You came back to the UK having lived
abroad and you notice things had
changed on a so-called day of rest?
What was the difference?
think. I think most of the difficult
thing that people struggle with now
is that shops are open and, like
your panellists said, there is the
opportunity to just go out and do
What are some of the
images you included in the
Unsurprisingly, the main
one was IKEA. They were very
generous and allowed me to go into
their Manchester store, I documented
people shopping in IKEA on Sunday.
Football is another massive change
since the invention of the Premier
League, people now go to watch
football games more on a Sunday than
on a Saturday. On the other side
there is the success of religion,
the Pentecostal church has seen a
dramatic increase in attendance
So people doing a range of
activities, with the exception of
the last photo not necessarily
relaxing or engaging in any way with
what they are thinking about, just
I guess the traditions
are still there. People still do the
things they have done for
generations but I think there is a
gradual erosion of those moments
where we actually used to stop and
just reflect on the week we have
just had and the week we have
One of the photos particularly
resonated with me, thank you very
much, students lying in their own
squalor in front of the television!
There are photos of me that exist
like that, but not available now.
Kathy, looking at some of those
pictures, IKEA, it was women with
their children. You say women used
to work really hard when Sunday was
a rest day, it puts more pressure on
Working mothers juggle so much
that we could be in the Cirque du
Soleil. Trying to fit in all your
shopping after work or on a
Saturday, it gives you the
opportunity to do it on a Sunday
afternoon, not cram everything else
in. My commandment is thou shall not
ball. When I moved to Britain and
all the shops were shut on a Sunday,
they were so boring, sometimes there
was so bored doing creative things
with Play-Doh I could see my plans
engaging in photosynthesis, at least
we could go to the shops, the
movies, whatever. It is liberating.
When I was a child, I helped
my mum in the kitchen. It was not
just mum on Sunday, it was a family
Can you do three
hours on a Friday morning?!
We had a
big family, seven kids, we mucked
in. Mum was our manager. Christmas
is family time. What I'm saying
about Sunday, it could be Saturday
in a Jewish context, bringing
together the family. A situation
where it does not cost you more...
Kathy, it is not necessarily boring,
it is family time, it keeps families
You can have family time,
but it is not have to be on a
Sunday. Friday night, movie and
popcorn, go to the park. Bring back
Sunday lunch if men do the cooking,
I use my smoke alarm as a time, I am
not want to do the cooking!
We are all about family time, this
isn't something that many people
have access to. Workers are younger,
people live further from siblings
and parents, people have children
much older. The idea that everyone
has to have Sundays off to allow the
people who have families to spend
the day with them is putting people
in a situation where...
gives a choice?
Look at a day off.
If you work anything tirelessly, it
will burst. We see that with mental
health problems, people are getting
stressed out. Take a chill pill,
whether 5pm on a Friday or Sunday
morning. I want to make this point,
I believe that God put this as a
Sabbath because it is the best idea,
I am not saying you do it because
God said, you do it because it is
the best idea.
Without question. I
have lots of non-Jewish friends and
colleagues who had jealously looked
at me and said, really, you turn
everything off on a Friday
afternoon? Of course I have missed
out on work and things I wanted to
go to, but the payoff is so much
greater, the feeling of regeneration
We are working hard,
but let's see what the people
putting their feet apart home are
George says I thought we
should return to Sunday being
treated as sacred for a long time, I
remember them being undoubtedly
better, more respectable and happier
days than now. Fay says my husband
is a chef, people would lose their
marbles if he did not cook them
Sunday lunch. Our weekends are
whatever days off he has in the
week. Makes day trips quieter with
most people at work or school.
Elaine says there is nothing wrong
with people having a holy day,
whatever their religion, a day of
rest is from the big good for
everyone, but nobody has the right
to impose that on others by whatever
Kathy, what would
you do today?
Going straight back to
bed. It is a day of rest. Men ask
what a woman wants in bed, the
answer is breakfast!
I am going to
Probably sleep on the train
home, I will still regarded as a day
of rest and drag my daughter to the
park, rather than shopping.
be working, Sundays on one of my
most convenient days to do my job
and I am pleased I have the freedom
to do that. I don't feel more stress
than anyone else, I imagine. I take
my day off when it is suitable for
me, different hours on different
You are going home to cook
I have to now!
Thank you all very much indeed.
On Tuesday, ghosts, ghouls,
skeletons and scary stuff will be
on parade as the traditional
Halloween fest gets under way.
Some people, though,
are uneasy at the idea
of celebrating demonic creatures
and children knocking
on doors asking for sweets.
Wendy Robbins has been to meet one
group who have come up
with an alternative.
Halloween is a time when children
all around the UK like to dress up
in masks and scary costumes.
And when night falls, it is time to
prowl the neighbourhood, surprising
Trick or treat!
But in Abersoch in North Wales, they
are taking another approach.
It is part of a project from the
Christian charity Scripture Union to
give more meaning to Halloween. Some
of the traditional trimmings are
you, but with a different twist. Was
this your idea tab across on the
Yes, I thought it would be
interesting to have different shapes
and convey a different message.
It symbolises tonight, the cross on
Yes, bringing different
aspects to Halloween and a different
point of view.
This year around 8000 light party
packs, as they are called, have been
distributed, and families in
Abersoch are doing their bit by
I am rubbish at
Artem Kravets. I am hoping if I wear
this it will help me.
We need to do
-- I am rubbish at
arts and crafts.
The parties offer
advice on games, crafting and
Look at my lantern. Ten out of ten?!
Thank you, Charlie X the measure
marked so kind.
Some parents have chosen to join the
light party because they believe
modern day Halloween has taken on a
I have nothing
against Halloween, but it is more
about scaring people. I like these
because it is an opportunity for
those who do not want to go to
Making lanterns has gone down a
treat with most of the children, but
some still can't resist the spooky
thrills. Who likes Halloween?
What do you like?
You get sweets for free.
That is a very good reason. What
Because it is very scary.
It is a wet evening in North Wales
but that has not dampened spirits.
To wrap the party, toasted
marshmallows around an open fire.
What do you hope people take away
I hope they will have had
fun, but it is an opportunity to
talk about and show who God is,
share the light of Jesus, the love
of God and for people to think more
about who you might be.
I had a
funny moment when I spoke to some of
the children and I asked what they
liked about Halloween and they said,
it is scary, we want to be scared!
You will never take that away from
Know, and some of these will
probably go to a Halloween party as
well, but at least they have had the
choice, and when they are older they
can choose which one makes the most
impact and which one does not.
Wendy Robbins with a different take
That's nearly all
from us for this week.
Many thanks to all our
guests and you at home
for your contributions.
Emma will be carrying
on the conversation online.
Yes, I'll be talking to novelist
and comedian Kathy Lette to find out
how she thinks we can make Sundays
more fun, and to discuss
her latest comedy tour.
Log on to
to join the conversation.
That's coming up online shortly.
In the meantime, from everyone
here in the studio and the whole
Sunday Morning Live team, goodbye.
Sean Fletcher and Emma Barnett present thought-provoking debate and instant audience reaction on the big ethical talking points of the week, along with roving reports from around the UK.
How tough should we be on British jihadists? Sean and Emma lead debate. Also on the programme, singer Russell Watson explains what it is like being the voice of God for a new musical. And 'forest bathing' - why getting to know a tree can help you de-stress.