Episode 19 Sunday Morning Live

Welcome to Sunday Morning Live.

I'm Sean Fletcher.

On today's programme: As fighters

for so-called Islamic State

filter back into the UK,

we ask how tough should we be

on British jihadists?

Unpaid internships and

zero-hours contracts.

Are young people being

exploited at work?

And singer Russell Watson, starring

in a new musical about Adam and Eve,

tells us how to sound like God.

Well, sometimes he can be very

quiet. And then of course there is

the booming angry voice.

All that coming up and Emma Barnett

is here ready to sample your views.

Morning, Emma.

Morning, Sean.

We want you to be

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Jewish families are being encouraged

to respect the Sabbath

and a new poll suggests that

an increasing number of Christians

don't keep Sunday special.

Is it time to claim

back the day of rest?

And Mehreen Baig explores forest

bathing, a new way to de-stress.

It is actually quite nice.

As the so-called Islamic State

crumbles in Syria and Iraq,

security forces are concerned

about what risk those who fought

or are still fighting for

the extremist organisation present.

Foreign Office minister Rory Stewart

caused headlines earlier this week

when he said that the only way

of dealing with fighters

on the ground will be,

in almost every case,

to kill them.

But what about those

who return here?

Around half of the estimated 850

people from the UK who went out

to support the jihadists are thought

to be back already.

How tough should we be

on British jihadists?

Joining us now to give their views

are Chris Phillips, former head

of the National Counter Terrorism

Security Office, Yasmine Ahmed,

director of Rights Watch UK,

Sirena Bergman, a journalist,

and Luke Gittos,

a lawyer and a writer.

These are British citizens we are

talking about. Shouldn't we be

giving them a second chance?

They

are not British citizens. They have

elected to join a fighting foreign

force and I think we need to

recognise that we are at war with

Islamic State. They have elected to

go to war not just against us but

against our values. I think there

are problems with denying them

British citizenship but to call them

British citizens and to assume that

they are entitled to the same due

process protections as you and I is

completely bizarre. It is completely

strange that politicians are

obsessed with due process. British

citizens who have been accused of

terrorism in the past have had their

civil liberties stripped away from

them for years and it is only now

when we start talking about blowing

up people who have demonstrably gone

to fight for a foreign army, that we

are talking about due process. I

think this moment is very strange

and it speaks to moral cowardice. If

you have the opportunity to take out

foreign fighters, do it.

Talking

about British values, we don't have

the death penalty. Why are we

talking about killing them?

There is

a clear difference between the death

penalty and killing someone with

whom you are at war and we need to

make that distinction. Isis are

organisation with whom we are at

war, I repeat, and to apply the same

due process protections to foreign

competitions as we were too is the

citizen accused of a crime in this

country is bizarre. -- as we would

to citizens accused of a crime in

this country is bizarre.

We have got

to make tough choices, so surely it

is the right thing to do?

The first

thing to say is it is a convex issue

and nobody can deny that. It is

important to say that as British

society, we have certain values that

we must uphold, and that is what

distinguishes us from other people.

Luke says they are not British

citizens.

They are values that

should be universal values and part

of those values is about

transparency and the government

being transparent and accountable

about its policies. What I think

it's really problematic is the

government essentially saying it

will be very difficult to prosecute

these people when they come back to

the UK. And this is very ambiguous

and where we need transparency, so

potentially we could kill anybody

who is supportive of Isis in Syria.

We have got to leave the door open

that people might return. And

definitely there is prosecution that

is an option and other options when

people return. But we have also got

to know that it is incredibly

important as a society to live up to

our own values and one of those

values is complying with the rule of

law. While you are correct that we

are in a non-international armed

conflict with Syria in Iraq, it does

not mean that anybody there can be

killed. When we start losing our own

values, there is not much to

distinguish us. One further point

out like to make. Constantly within

this debate there is this idea that

national security and human rights

are juxtaposition and they cannot

sit together. But if you look

consistently to the past, you will

see that in fact human rights

reinforces security. Security

Council's counterterrorism committee

said that when you take measures

that are not in line with human

rights, it can drive people to

extremism.

So it creates a problem.

If southerly has gone to fight for

so-called Islamic State, they have

signed up to a brutal ideology. Some

people at home will be watching and

they will feel that these people

should not be allowed back in our

country.

That is a separate issue

and when I do not agree with either

but the idea we would kill them that

they stem from an ideology that we

think is reprehensible leads to a

slippery slope. We can't decide some

people should be stripped of their

civil liberties purely because we

don't agree with the reasons behind

their crimes.

But it is a brutal

ideology. We are not just talking

about criminals here. Serious issues

and serious things. And attempting

to set up a state.

That is true. And

one of the arguments was that

terrorist organisations are trying

to take us back to a seventh century

state and they have announced their

right to British citizenship. But

what is it we are doing if we are

arguing we should just kill people

because we think they might have

committed crimes that it would be

difficult to trying them? Surely

what we are doing is equally

regressive and problematic? If we

strip those values from people we

don't agree with, how long before

they are stripped from people we

just don't agree with?

The idea that

Isis is comparable to any other

organisation is bizarre.

Isis has

declared war on western values. The

sooner we recognise that we should

be defending western values and

violently where necessary, that is a

good thing.

There are rules in

international law.

There are rules

and we should comply with them.

By

killing everyone? Let him finish.

Those rules do not prevent us from

striking Isis fighters, they just

don't.

I find it personally

effective that it is a western value

to strip people of civil liberties

and killed them simply because their

crimes in your judgment are worse

than other people's.

Of course

Isis's crimes are worse than other

people's. It is bizarre to me that I

have got to convince people that

Isis with killing.

That is bizarre.

Chris is a former counterterrorism

officer. You might think it is

easier to stop worrying about these

people. Is it right to kill them

before they get here?

Absolutely.

The thing about the internet is

nobody went to join Isis without

knowing exactly what they were up

to. They were up for killing people,

throwing people off blocks of flats,

beheading people, setting people on

fire. They went to join an

organisation into mass murder.

But

these are young people who may have

been groomed.

That is their choice.

They have chosen to go to a place

putting themselves in danger, a war

zone. If they die over there, so be

it. What we need to be careful of

here is pontificating about the

difficulties of prosecuting and the

enormous difficulties of actually

finding out what has happened in

Syria. It will take generations to

find out who committed crimes. In

the meantime we are talking about

allowing people back to our country

to live next door to you, who may

have committed mass murder. And we

have got to be aware that terrorism

is not going to go away. This will

be with us for generations to come.

We will talk about the implications

of jihadists returning here in a

moment but ever had a guest who can

move this on. -- Emma has a guest.

With me now is Zahed Ammanullah,

who works for an organisation that

carries out research and analysis

to try and develop ways

to counter extremism.

What do you think should happen to

British citizens who have gone out

to so-called Islamic State?

What is

being lost in the discussion is that

many of these people who are coming

back, if we can detain or arrest

them for assisting Isis, there is a

huge opportunity there to find out

what their radicalisation process

was and what we can learn to prevent

this happening again. Isis might be

on the back foot but the phenomenon

of streamers and will continue and

we should understand it. --

extremism will continue. Why did it

resonate with them? We have got to

be clinically objective about this

and really understand what will work

to prevent other people from

succumbing to this in the future.

What makes you think that they will

share that information with you? To

be clear, do you think they should

come back, be prosecuted, and then

somebody like yourself goes to

interview them?

Absolutely. Many of

these people have already committed

crimes in terms of assisting a

terrorist organisation materially.

And murder. Of course. Of the

systems we have, they deserve due

process, but if we are able to

understand their motivations...

Anecdotally, a lot of these people

coming back are disillusioned and

they are willing to cooperate. We

have seen models in other parts of

Europe, like Denmark, where this

process has been tested. A lot of

people have given information that

has been useful in determining how

to dissuade other young people in

the future from going down the same

path.

That is the process you would

favour at many people getting in

touch think they don't want to go

down that route. You see it as an

opportunity. Even if these people

are disillusioned, what evidence do

you have that they can be

rehabilitated and they don't just go

into the prison system and cause

more people to become disillusioned

and radicalised?

We have got the

process in the UK, like Prevent, who

are doing with these issues and

people who are at risk, and people

who are arrested and imprisoned, and

their rehabilitation programmes

taking place where we have seen

success. The important thing is to

learn from this and make sure we

don't just lock them up and pretend

like we don't know why these people

went down this path. There is a lot

of information from a psychological

standpoint that we need to

understand. From our point of view

as an organisation, we manage a

network of form extremists who

provide resources for us, and we

have tested messaging at risk

individuals using the insight we

have gained from these individuals,

and seen that we can see some

positive impact on at risk

individuals if you use that

information to dissuade them.

I have

got to leave it there. Thank you

very much. We should see this as an

opportunity? Very interesting to

hear him talking about the cycle of

recruitment happening again. Luke,

an opportunity to learn from

jihadists returning and we don't

want it to happen again.

Think about

what you might stand to learn. These

people will be deeply unreliable

witnesses, as we say in the law.

They will have motivation to give

unreliable information. I am not

convinced that we stand to learn an

enormous amount from someone coming

back from a war zone who has

committed themselves to destroying

our values. The idea that that

learning process should take

precedence over taking them out of

the picture completely betrays a

complete moral cowardice.

He said

that history will repeat itself if

we don't learn from the situation.

We need to win the war with Isis

first and the idea that we would

spend our time learning about their

psychology before defeating them

shows bizarre priorities.

Chris, how

would you assess the risk we face

from these returning jihadists?

You

have got to face the fact that we

cannot stop people coming back. We

have been unable to stop people

coming back. They are already here.

Of course we have got to learn from

them and understand what turned them

to that ideology, but also we have

got to deal with the people who are

real threat and the risk these

people face. We are at the beginning

of this terrorism problem. It is not

going to go away. We are going to

have very large-scale terrorist

attacks, unfortunately.

That is

going to be the case. So can't we

learn from these people to stop it

happening again?

Of course. But what

do we do with those people who will

not be changed? We do not have the

police and security services to

monitor those people who are already

here, so how can we deal with an

influx of more people?

How big is the risk? Are you

worried? I am very worried. I have

been worried for a long time about

the risk of terrorism and

large-scale vehicle bombs which kill

hundreds if not thousands of people.

We could have seen that just a few

weeks ago in Barcelona when they

intended to make a large vehicle

bomb which could have killed

hundreds if not thousands of people.

These things are going to happen

unfortunately at some stage in our

future and we have got to protect

ourselves and make sure that those

people who are the highest risk are

not allowed to come harm us.

There

is a balancing between human rights

and the risk to our country. How do

you get that balance right?

Absolutely that it is interesting

that Chris is talking about stopping

people coming back. Surely we want

to do the opposite? People who have

gone to fight on Isis's behalf, we

want them to come back. If they have

been groomed, if they have been

naive in the reasons why they have

gone, they didn't understand the

consequences, we want them to come

back and we want to encourage them

to reintegrate into society. When we

have divisive rhetoric about kill

them all, that is not helpful.

But

they know what they were getting

into, we all do.

It is easy to say

that sitting on the sofa. But how

people groomed when they are

vulnerable, perhaps with mental

health issues? They may have grown

up in a world where they don't

understand nuances that we can talk

about. It is easy to say they knew

what they were getting into and that

is the reality.

When they come back, they will have

the same problems and we will have

to deal with them on the streets and

have terrorist attacks.

Not if we rehabilitate them.

Natalie

says they should be let back in, the

British judicial system should throw

the whole weight of the law at them

to show it will not be tolerated.

Daniela says we need to stop the

problem at the beginning, education

is key in helping people we seek

falling under the spell. Peter says

they should face treason

charges, dual nationality, strip

them of British nationality, deport

them back to where they have come

from and banned them from coming

back.

Maureen says we cannot treat them

harshly enough, they are barbaric

animals and if they are happy to

live by the sword they can be happy

to die by it. They do not deserve to

be tried under the British system.

Maureen says live by the sword, die

by the sword. You confident we can

find a solution?

As I said at the

beginning it is extremely complex,

anybody working in this space needs

to acknowledge that. We need to

acknowledge and be very careful

about taking very simple narratives

on this, because it is very complex.

Well one reaction is to keep

ourselves safe, I think we need to

realise that forgoing our values and

human rights and the rule of law

will not keep us safe in the long

run. When we make these kinds of

decisions about the policies that

the Government will employ to keep

the British citizens safe, we need

to think about not only immediate

issues but the long run.

Certainly we are at war in a

non-international armed conflict

with Isis. That allows those people

participating in the hostility, it

allows us a right to potentially

kill those people. But what we also

need to recognise is that, for

example, there is territory in Iraq

and Syria being taken back over by

the government and people are

potentially surrendering, there are

opportunities where people say I am

no longer here. We just killing

everyone that? There needs to be a

complexity of tools used, one of

them as people returning. If there

is any opportunity to prosecute the

individuals, they should be.

But there needs to be space for

people to potentially go through

de-radicalisation, if that is an

opportunity that can be taken

advantage of.

Chris, you painted a

bleak picture before?

I don't

disagree with any of that, they are

people in the battlefield, they

should be killed, that is the way of

the world, unfortunately. When they

come back, and they already have, we

have to deal with them. But

legislation in the Western free

democratic societies does not allow

others to deal with people this way

inclined, it just does not.

Even when they go to prison they are

released very quickly and they are a

major threat to society.

Thank you to the panel, very

interesting.

He started out as a worker in a nuts

and bolts factory and ended up

singing for presidents and the Pope.

Along the way, Russell Watson picked

up the nickname The Voice.

Now he's playing the voice

of God in Heaven on Earth,

a new musical about Adam and Eve.

Samanthi Flanagan went

to meet Russell to ask him

about playing the Almighty,

and the part faith

plays in his life.

Let's go back to the beginning, you

started your working life in a nuts

and bolts factory in Salford, and

now you are about to be the voice of

God, you have come a long way!

It is

quite a transition!. Everything that

has happened in my life, with regard

to my career, was almost stumbled

upon. I remember the night I was out

with my friends, it was 1990 and it

was The Railway In, a few pints of

beer. Go long, Russell, get up and

sing!

That was a radio talent

contest?

Yes, next thing I know I

have won, I am walking into the

factory, the shop floor, where I had

been for eight or nine years, that

as it is, I am leaving, I am going

to be a singer!

You had a real nuts and bolts

training in the working men's clubs

of England?

I did nine years in the

working men's clubs, it was a long,

hard battle and a slog and a lot of

the time I felt like I was banging

my head against the proverbial brick

wall and I was not going to get

anywhere.

The big break came when you are

asked to sing at a big football

match, Manchester United, tell me

about that.

To walk out on that her fans look

around and hear the crowd on the

bows, a few weeks before I had been

singing in a working men's club to

30 or 40 people -- to hear the crowd

and the buzz.

And when

-- and when I

hit the top notes of Nessun Dorma,

the crowd was cheering, I just

filled up.

Those moments were just the start.

You have sown in front of world

leaders, a private audience with

Pope John Paul?

They build it as a

private audience with Pope John Paul

II, 3500 specially invited

dignitaries and around 500 people...

Million people watching across

Europe, a private audience. --

around 500 million people watching

in Europe. I could not believe I was

there, amazing. From my perspective

at the time it was a massive thrill,

but at that particular moment in

time, my career was rolling and I

was selling millions of records all

over the world...

# In a restless world, like this is.

# Love has ended before it's begun.

I was in a place where, if I'm being

honest, I wasn't really taking my

spirituality, my religion, that

serious. That's me being honest.

Then, of course, a few years later

when the wheels came off the wagon,

then I turn to spirituality.

The opera singer Russell Watson is

undergoing emergency surgery to

treat a tumour which is bleeding

into his brain.

It was only after I had recognised

how close I was to death that I

realised there are more important

things in life than being number one

and being the bestseller. And that

is when I took my step into faith

and religion and belief.

Now, looking back with hindsight, if

it hadn't happened, I wouldn't be

the person I am today, and the

person I am today is a better person

than the one that existed ten years

ago.

We mention that you have sown in

front of many important people on

earth, you have also had your voice

broadcast into space?

We got a call

from Nasa, as you do. We thought it

was a wind-up at first. One of our

probes is about to go past Pluto and

we would like to beam a signal of

Russell up to the probe to wake the

probe up... I was like, fantastic. I

sang the theme tune from Star Trek

Enterprise and they wanted to use

that to wake up the probe.

New Horizons, your adventure, Pluto,

awaits. Safe travels. God bless.

# It's been a long road.

# Getting from there to here.

So I proudly announced on social

media that my voice would be heard

furthest from planet Earth than any

other boys in the history of

mankind. And somebody tweeted back,

and that's where Richard stay!

LAUGHTER

From Earth to space to the heavens,

you are now going to be playing the

voice of God in a new stage musical?

I like the way you did that

explanation

there was method.

It is a new arena tour of a musical

called Heaven on Earth, it starts

next month in Birmingham. The

singers is the dancers have started

working together, it is a big cast.

And the story, in essence, is about

Adam and Eve, that story, to me, was

a story of a father and his

children, and that is something that

I can relate very well too. And that

is how I initially undertook the

role, it is not necessarily of this

booming voice. Sometimes he can be

very quiet... And then, of course,

there is the booming, angry voice!

When Adam finally betrays him and

eats from the forbidden tree...

Hasn't had any effect on your own

interpretation of your faith or

relationship with God? -- has it

had?

My faith, my interpretation of

God, I believe there is a God and I

hope there is somewhere after life

for us to go. I hope that, but I am

not categorically certain that there

is.

That is faith.

Yes.

Russell, thank you.

It has been

a real pleasure, thank you.

Russell Watson - the voice of God.

Still to come on Sunday

Morning Live...

How a Christian group is trying

to take the spooks out of Halloween.

I thought it would be interesting to

have different shapes, just to

convey a different message.

Are young people being

exploited at work?

A proposal before Parliament

at the moment seeks to limit unpaid

internships to a maximum

of four weeks.

Up to 15,000 graduates and others

a year are estimated to be

on unpaid work experience.

And young people figure

prominently among those working

on zero-hours contracts.

That's where employees work only

when they are needed by employers -

such as delivery companies -

often at short notice.

Around 300,000 16 to 24-year-olds

are on those terms.

Are we looking at valuable work

experience and efficient ways

of working or exploitation?

Joining me now are Mags Dewhurst,

vice-president of the Independent

Workers' Union of Great Britain,

Adam Henderson, a consultant

on millenial workers, Raef Bjayou,

a businessman and former contestant

on The Apprentice, and still

with us is Luke Gittos.

Adam, flexible working should give

you much more freedom than a 95, the

is you don't have a guarantee of

when your next job would be. Do

young people prefer that job

security?

It is all to do with

choice. If you have chosen to become

an entrepreneur and go out on your

own and take the terms of your work

based on your talent and what you

want to do then, yes, it is really

great, but if you are forced to do

it because are no full-time jobs

available and you are having to work

during the day at one job and in the

evening at another and the weekend

at another just to scrape a living,

there is a difference in terms of

the flexibility. Choice is key.

In

your experience, do more young

people prefer the flexibility?

Again, it comes down to whether they

have chosen it or not. From a

millennial perspective, they want

flexible working, with three

quarters saying that is really

important to them, but at the same

time it is on their terms than they

are doing it as part of a better

worklife balance as opposed to just

doing it to bring in enough money to

fade -- feed themselves or put a

roof over their heads.

Mags, you

went to a tribunal to win the right

to be recognised as a worker, you

are a cycle career, meaning you

qualify for basic rights and the

minimum wage. But the broader issue,

what is at the root of your

concerns?

I think my main concern is

there is now a shift taking place,

and although I agree with some of

what Adam said it is not really

about a generational choice. I think

flexibility is being offered to

people in lieu of other perks that

would normally be a decent wage,

enough to live on, enough to save,

enough for a pension, and for rent,

enough to cover the cost of actually

doing the job. All of those things

were offered to people decades ago

with proper self-employment, that

was seen as the cost benefit ratio,

but now it is becoming the norm and

it is flooding into all these

different sectors and I am worried

that unscrupulous employers are

taking advantage of people by saying

we are going to pay you just about

the National Minimum Wage but you

can work whenever you want, but make

sure you work at these times because

this is the only time he will make

money. I am afraid that is not good

enough.

Luke, our employers having their

cake and eating it? The current

system is undermining the basic

rights of people and job security?

It is complicated, the aspects which

embrace choice are good that this

generation, the millennial

generation, who spend more time in

education, broke Sample, can fit

owning money around doing a degree,

part-time education or similar --

who spend more time in education,

for example, and can fit owning many

around. But some employers take

advantage, we need better employers

and better jobs. But the way we talk

about zero-hours contracts often

paints millenials or young people in

the workplace as victims of these

awful companies forcing them to work

flexibly and it is a lot more

complicated than that. Often if you

want to live a flexible life,

flexible working can be good. It is

just as exploitative to force people

to go to work when there is no work

to do, which often happens in

salaried work. People can go to work

even though they don't really need

to be there. Flexible working take

something out of that.

Raef, talking

about the zero others, what about

work experience and unpaid

internships?

We have serious obstacles not just

to agree about to education already.

-- not just to a career. I don't

think we need any other economic

barriers. What I find peculiar that

the debate over whether interns

should or should not be paid, if we

are simply saying that those of us

who think all interns should be

paid, and the social mobility

commission says there should be a

period four weeks, we think that if

you do an honest day's work, you

should have paid to you an honest

day's salary. Whether it is three

weeks, four, or six months.

But it

is an option to to learn about the

job and you are not as good about a

fellow worker.

It is an opportunity

to live. I am not suggesting the

salary should be pegged to a fully

fledged employee, but I am

suggesting it is fair. Companies are

founded on principles and one of

them is that they pay for services

of value. If you are suggesting that

you're in turn is of value and is

carrying out work that is valuable,

then they need to be paid for it. --

your intern. And if the work is of

no value, you shouldn't be engaging

with them in the first place.

With me now is Robyn Vinter,

who runs a news website aimed

at young people under 30,

the so-called millenials.

Unpaid interns form an important

part of your staff, so why do you

use them?

There is a broad range of

things, really. Mostly because I

can't afford to have a full team of

people. Partly it is because I

started in an internship. I want to

give that same kind of opportunities

to other people as well.

How long do

people work for you with no pay?

Three weeks. We have put a strict

limit on it three weeks. We think

that is enough time for them to

learn about the business and learn

what they need to do, and not to

take too much advantage of them and

take too much out of their career,

basically.

Are you surprised that

you have ended up using them?

Yes. I

felt very strongly from the start

that I was going to make sure that

everybody who works for me will be

paid, interns and everybody else,

and a lot of people told me that was

not sustainable and you need to

start off with people who will work

for free. Yeah. Then I started to

realise that actually that is true.

There is a definite line between

between them getting a lot out of it

as well. That is one thing.

Have you

been surprised sometimes that when

you do give young people

opportunities, have you been

surprised by their response?

Yes, I

started strongly thinking that

millenials needed more opportunities

and students just need to be given

the chance, that is definitely true

of some people. But some of them I

have been very surprised. People

have applied for an internship and I

have said come along, what days are

you free? And they don't reply. One

person replied, and then when I

confirmed that it was unpaid, he

said I don't work for free.

I

googled him just to see. I thought

he might be the son of an earl or

something. Michael -- I googled him

and he was not famous so good luck

to him. Some reality is that you

have learned from setting up your

own business. Disillusionment with

young people. It sounds like she has

had bad experiences with young

people. Some people accuse the

younger generation of not having as

much graft as older generations.

What is your experience?

The

collision of generations has been

around since the dawn of time. My

experience from my work in PR and

marketing is that there are some

great millenials, as there are some

not great millenials, but that is

the same and true of other

generations as well. I think they

get a very bad rap, and I think one

of the reasons for that is the world

of work is changing. It really is

changing at a page that I don't

think we had in our minds at all. --

at a pace. Millenials are beginning

to realise that they feel they have

been taken advantage of, many of

them, and they are consciously aware

of what they should be entitled to.

I think that has been misconstrued

as being too precious for the

workplace, for lack of a better

word.

And that is not acceptable. Is

there a problem with unpaid

internships? You can only do that if

you can afford it and if mum and dad

can pay the rent. If you have not

got that money, you will not do an

unpaid internship.

I think you are

selling working-class young people

short. People can strive. People are

capable of doing an unpaid

internship and making it work.

Unpaid internships are the great

social leveller. They mean people

can compete in a meritocracy.

That

is absolutely ridiculous!

If the

only way to get a job at a newspaper

to do an unpaid internship in

London, a working-class child in the

north of England is going to

struggle much more than somebody,

rich kid from west London.

Of course

that is true, it is absolutely true.

But the problem is we are now

denying them the opportunity to

struggle and to make it work for

themselves. I think that is

patronising and wrong. In law

especially, my industry, working

class kids will not get the

opportunity to prove themselves as

competent and forthright because

they will not have the same network,

the same opportunity. If you

formalise unpaid internships, they

won't exist. Small firms like us, if

you make us pay our interns, we just

can't offer it.

Young people are

online a lot. What are they saying?

Bobby says I did many months of

unpaid work when I left university

and I found it deeply satisfying and

I got a pudding in my chosen

industry and when I moved up to paid

work I appreciated it more. -- I got

a footing. Linda says there are

sacrifices to be made and if you

will not show willing at work for

free, somebody else will happily.

Naomi says that working for free

makes you appear worthless. Only

people with a rich mummy and daddy

can enter certain industries. Donna

says if you work for free, you drive

down the wages that can be earned

across the board. People need to

show solidarity with each other.

Thank you for your messages. Naomi

says only people with a rich mummy

and daddy can do the internships.

Respond to that.

With all due

respect, Luke, I think what you are

saying is ridiculous! It is not

patronising. It is trying to level

the playing field. It is massively

advantageous to some people and

massively disadvantageous to other

people. And that is a class thing, a

gender thing, a race thing, a

massive intersection between all of

these things. Of course there are no

answers for voluntary organisations,

charities and small businesses. --

nuances. But we have seen across the

board that young people are doing

more work for less money than the

generations before them. That means

that the entire economy is shifting

into a low wage economy, which has a

section of massive unpaid labour.

Something needs to be done about

that.

I am afraid we are out of time

on this so you have had the final

word and I am glad that none of you

is on work experience here. Thank

you.

Mindfulness, which aims to improve

resilience and mental health

by encouraging people to slow down

and pay attention to the moment,

has become very fashionable.

One group in Yorkshire has gone

a step further and you can now

de-stress with the help

of the trees.

It's all part of a Japanese-inspired

movement called forest bathing,

as Mehreen Baig discovered.

There are not many things more

relaxing than a day spent in the

countryside. Now a movement from

Japan has harnessed this natural

relaxant. It is known as Forest

bathing. But why travel halfway

around the world when you can do it

right here on your doorstep? I have

heard of bathing as a way to relax

and usually it involves hot water

and bubbles. But far from a warm

bath, right now I am in the middle

of a chilly forest. In Yorkshire. To

find out what it is all about, I am

meeting Emma Douglas who leads

Forest bathing sessions here. What

is Forest bathing?

It is a mercy

yourself in a wooded environment.

The Japanese term directly

translated to English is Forest

bathing. They have found that the

trees give off essential board oils

that reduce stress, aid with sleep

and pain. There is a huge benefit.

And who is it for? Absolutely

anybody can benefit. Throughout the

week Faith encourages everybody to

leave the worries of daily life and

join her on a walk through the

trees.

Check your arms and your legs

and your head.

To begin the session,

we need to loosen up.

We are going

to start with mindful walking.

Mindful walking, that seems simple

enough. It is actually really

pretty. To really connect with

nature, we are recommended to get

really stuck in. I invite you to

take off your shoes and socks. Now a

spot of paddling. And Faith turns it

up a notch and asks us to befriend a

tree.

Pick a tree, any tree, and

hang out with it for five minutes.

Just pick one.

I picked that one

because it looks lonely.

I am so terrible at shutting off. I

am touching the tree and I am

looking at my nails. It is so

peaceful. It is much more peaceful

than I expected it to be. I don't

know. I'm finding it really hard to

shut off and I find it a bit weird

to get to know a tree. It is

actually quite nice! I am not sure

if I have got the hang of this yet.

To understand more, I am going to

talk to someone who found forest

bathing a life changing experience.

After spending seven months on

active service in Iraq, Ken was

diagnosed with post-traumatic stress

disorder.

Post-traumatic stress

disorder didn't kick in for me for a

long time. While you are on tour,

the training kicks in, and it is

when you come back to family life

that it is difficult to adjust after

being in that situation for so long.

When you started this, how bad was

your condition?

My wife and daughter

moved out. I was constantly angry. I

didn't care about anything. I didn't

want to leave the house. I didn't

sleep at all. In 2015I went to see

my GP, he was incidentally ex-forces

and he got me straightaway. He said

I needed to speak to someone and

from there, I started the forest

bathing. I am so much more relaxed

and, within myself. I am back with

my wife and daughter now thanks to

the help I got through forest

bathing.

It is amazing to hear how

far Ken has come. For him, spending

the time being mindful around nature

seems to have really benefited his

situation. I have enjoyed my time in

the woodland learning about forest

bathing. While I might find other

ways of relaxing a bit more

appealing, for the people here, it

really does seem to work.

Mehreen Baig chilling in Yorkshire.

Sticking with the theme

of getting away from it all,

this weekend Jewish families

are being encouraged

to make a special effort

to mark their Sabbath.

Shabbat UK is a celebration

of the Jewish day of rest and aims

to highlight the importance

of spending time with loved

ones and the community,

rather than being at work or online.

But it's not just an issue

for Jewish families.

A new survey suggests that

an increasing number of Christians

feel that four of the 10

commandments are no longer relevant,

including the need to keep

the Sabbath day holy.

With shops and DIY stores open,

less than one in three believe

in preserving Sunday

as a day of peace.

So is it important for all of us

to have a dedicated day

of rest and reflection,

or is the idea of the Sabbath

incompatible with modern lifestyles?

Here to discuss that

are Angela Epstein,

a broadcaster and writer,

Kathy Lette, a novelist,

Rev George Hargreaves,

a Christian campaigner,

and re-joining the panel

is journalist Sirena Berman.

Let's put aside the fact that we are

working on a Sunday! Are we losing

something if we lose the national

day of rest, the Sunday?

It was

never a day of rest for women. Even

though we make up 50% of the

workforce, we were always doing 99%

of the childcare and has worked. If

you think of the Sunday roast, you

get up and you peel the vegetables.

I have cooked herds of beef, flocks

of lambs, schools of salmon, and it

is exhausting and I am totally

against going back to the day for

men and the day on for women.

You

should come back to my house because

I do the Sunday roast! Is it

unrealistic to expect everybody to

have the same day as a rest day?

As a Jewish person, my sabbath is,

if you like, Sundown to symptom.

Friday night to Saturday night I

have what you would call a digital

detox, no phones, no telly, we go to

synagogue, we have family meals, you

see friends and it is a trust, it

has been like that the generations

and it is almost like the Almighty,

if you buy into that, which I very

much do, had the great foresight to

realise that time would come when

humanity would evolve, when we

couldn't cope without plugging it in

or buying it. My favourite time of

the week is Friday afternoon,

everything gets switched off. What I

would say, ironically, even though I

have a 25 hour digital detox, I miss

Sunday being a day of rest, because

I'm very British as well as being

very Jewish. Shopping and trekking

around the town centre is the

default activity now. Before it was

like there was nothing else to do

except go to the park, go to the

countryside, have time with the

family. By 13-year-old will say can

we maybe go to the shops or

whatever. I say can we go to the

park? She is going, really?! We have

those quasi-American conversations.

Sirena, we talk about worklife

balance. Having a Sunday as a rest

day gives us that it forces us to

have back?

Arguably not, as was very

eloquently explained by Kathy. What

we need to think about in terms of

worklife balance is how the world

works today, not these regressive

ideas of looking back decades to the

past. Today it has been proven over

and over that flexible working,

remote working is so beneficial to

society as a whole, it makes people

more productive and happy and allows

us to develop a worklife balance in

our own terms, not on the terms of

the people perhaps looking at their

very specific situation.

George,

very few people have Sunday as a

rest day, even Christians do not

believe it?

I want to see the data.

I am with Angela, if the Almighty

said let's have a day off, I think

we are looking at the owners' manual

for how we should live. If we do not

think about it necessarily from a

religious point of view, I am not

for legislating religious practice,

I am dead against it, but from a

practical point of view, I can

remember an old song which said I

Wish It Could Be Christmas Every

Day. It could actually be Christmas

for 52 days of the year...

So true.

If we just have Sunday off.

Closed-end Tesco and Sainsbury's, we

deal with it at Christmas...

All I

was

going to say is that Sunday rest has

become Sunday stress, what has

happened, nothing to do with

religion and legislating how

religiously you approach Sundays, I

do not suggest everyone has the

digital detox we have, but stepping

off the mouse wheel.

I like the

sound of 52 days of Christmas but I

am not sure that is in the Bible.

With me now is Matt Writtle,

a documentary photographer who has

just published a book of photos

of things we get up to on a Sunday.

You came back to the UK having lived

abroad and you notice things had

changed on a so-called day of rest?

What was the difference?

Retail, I

think. I think most of the difficult

thing that people struggle with now

is that shops are open and, like

your panellists said, there is the

opportunity to just go out and do

the shopping.

What are some of the

images you included in the

collection?

Unsurprisingly, the main

one was IKEA. They were very

generous and allowed me to go into

their Manchester store, I documented

people shopping in IKEA on Sunday.

Football is another massive change

since the invention of the Premier

League, people now go to watch

football games more on a Sunday than

on a Saturday. On the other side

there is the success of religion,

the Pentecostal church has seen a

dramatic increase in attendance

figures.

So people doing a range of

activities, with the exception of

the last photo not necessarily

relaxing or engaging in any way with

what they are thinking about, just

consuming?

I guess the traditions

are still there. People still do the

things they have done for

generations but I think there is a

gradual erosion of those moments

where we actually used to stop and

just reflect on the week we have

just had and the week we have

coming.

One of the photos particularly

resonated with me, thank you very

much, students lying in their own

squalor in front of the television!

There are photos of me that exist

like that, but not available now.

Kathy, looking at some of those

pictures, IKEA, it was women with

their children. You say women used

to work really hard when Sunday was

a rest day, it puts more pressure on

them?

Working mothers juggle so much

that we could be in the Cirque du

Soleil. Trying to fit in all your

shopping after work or on a

Saturday, it gives you the

opportunity to do it on a Sunday

afternoon, not cram everything else

in. My commandment is thou shall not

ball. When I moved to Britain and

all the shops were shut on a Sunday,

they were so boring, sometimes there

was so bored doing creative things

with Play-Doh I could see my plans

engaging in photosynthesis, at least

we could go to the shops, the

movies, whatever. It is liberating.

George?

When I was a child, I helped

my mum in the kitchen. It was not

just mum on Sunday, it was a family

thing.

Unita Halo!

Can you do three

hours on a Friday morning?!

We had a

big family, seven kids, we mucked

in. Mum was our manager. Christmas

is family time. What I'm saying

about Sunday, it could be Saturday

in a Jewish context, bringing

together the family. A situation

where it does not cost you more...

Kathy, it is not necessarily boring,

it is family time, it keeps families

together?

You can have family time,

but it is not have to be on a

Sunday. Friday night, movie and

popcorn, go to the park. Bring back

Sunday lunch if men do the cooking,

I use my smoke alarm as a time, I am

not want to do the cooking!

We are all about family time, this

isn't something that many people

have access to. Workers are younger,

people live further from siblings

and parents, people have children

much older. The idea that everyone

has to have Sundays off to allow the

people who have families to spend

the day with them is putting people

in a situation where...

George, this

gives a choice?

Look at a day off.

If you work anything tirelessly, it

will burst. We see that with mental

health problems, people are getting

stressed out. Take a chill pill,

whether 5pm on a Friday or Sunday

morning. I want to make this point,

I believe that God put this as a

Sabbath because it is the best idea,

I am not saying you do it because

God said, you do it because it is

the best idea.

Without question. I

have lots of non-Jewish friends and

colleagues who had jealously looked

at me and said, really, you turn

everything off on a Friday

afternoon? Of course I have missed

out on work and things I wanted to

go to, but the payoff is so much

greater, the feeling of regeneration

and regrouping.

We are working hard,

but let's see what the people

putting their feet apart home are

saying.

George says I thought we

should return to Sunday being

treated as sacred for a long time, I

remember them being undoubtedly

better, more respectable and happier

days than now. Fay says my husband

is a chef, people would lose their

marbles if he did not cook them

Sunday lunch. Our weekends are

whatever days off he has in the

week. Makes day trips quieter with

most people at work or school.

Elaine says there is nothing wrong

with people having a holy day,

whatever their religion, a day of

rest is from the big good for

everyone, but nobody has the right

to impose that on others by whatever

means possible.

Kathy, what would

you do today?

Going straight back to

bed. It is a day of rest. Men ask

what a woman wants in bed, the

answer is breakfast!

I am going to

church.

Probably sleep on the train

home, I will still regarded as a day

of rest and drag my daughter to the

park, rather than shopping.

I will

be working, Sundays on one of my

most convenient days to do my job

and I am pleased I have the freedom

to do that. I don't feel more stress

than anyone else, I imagine. I take

my day off when it is suitable for

me, different hours on different

days.

You are going home to cook

lunch?

I have to now!

Thank you all very much indeed.

On Tuesday, ghosts, ghouls,

skeletons and scary stuff will be

on parade as the traditional

Halloween fest gets under way.

Some people, though,

are uneasy at the idea

of celebrating demonic creatures

and children knocking

on doors asking for sweets.

Wendy Robbins has been to meet one

group who have come up

with an alternative.

Halloween is a time when children

all around the UK like to dress up

in masks and scary costumes.

And when night falls, it is time to

prowl the neighbourhood, surprising

people.

Trick or treat!

But in Abersoch in North Wales, they

are taking another approach.

Come

in.

It is part of a project from the

Christian charity Scripture Union to

give more meaning to Halloween. Some

of the traditional trimmings are

you, but with a different twist. Was

this your idea tab across on the

pumpkin?

Yes, I thought it would be

interesting to have different shapes

and convey a different message.

It symbolises tonight, the cross on

the pumpkin?

Yes, bringing different

aspects to Halloween and a different

point of view.

This year around 8000 light party

packs, as they are called, have been

distributed, and families in

Abersoch are doing their bit by

making lanterns.

I am rubbish at

Artem Kravets. I am hoping if I wear

this it will help me.

We need to do

some bending.

-- I am rubbish at

arts and crafts.

The parties offer

advice on games, crafting and

friendly competition.

Look at my lantern. Ten out of ten?!

Thank you, Charlie X the measure

marked so kind.

Some parents have chosen to join the

light party because they believe

modern day Halloween has taken on a

darker undertone.

I have nothing

against Halloween, but it is more

about scaring people. I like these

because it is an opportunity for

those who do not want to go to

Halloween.

Making lanterns has gone down a

treat with most of the children, but

some still can't resist the spooky

thrills. Who likes Halloween?

Me.

Me.

What do you like?

Wearing scary

costumes.

You get sweets for free.

That is a very good reason. What

about you?

Because it is very scary.

It is a wet evening in North Wales

but that has not dampened spirits.

To wrap the party, toasted

marshmallows around an open fire.

What do you hope people take away

tonight?

I hope they will have had

fun, but it is an opportunity to

talk about and show who God is,

share the light of Jesus, the love

of God and for people to think more

about who you might be.

I had a

funny moment when I spoke to some of

the children and I asked what they

liked about Halloween and they said,

it is scary, we want to be scared!

You will never take that away from

kids.

Know, and some of these will

probably go to a Halloween party as

well, but at least they have had the

choice, and when they are older they

can choose which one makes the most

impact and which one does not.

Wendy Robbins with a different take

on Halloween.

That's nearly all

from us for this week.

Many thanks to all our

guests and you at home

for your contributions.

Emma will be carrying

on the conversation online.

Yes, I'll be talking to novelist

and comedian Kathy Lette to find out

how she thinks we can make Sundays

more fun, and to discuss

her latest comedy tour.

Log on to

facebook.com/bbcsundaymorninglive

to join the conversation.

That's coming up online shortly.

In the meantime, from everyone

here in the studio and the whole

Sunday Morning Live team, goodbye.