Episode 20 Sunday Morning Live

Welcome to Sunday Morning Live.

I'm Sean Fletcher.

On today's programme, a senior

cabinet minister resigns and other

MPs are under investigation.

But are we taking sexual

harassment seriously enough?

Celebrities gather to launch

a new scheme to provide

meals for the homeless -

James Bond movie star Naomie Harris

tells us why it's needed.

The idea of not having a roof over

your head, not having a warm meal in

your stomach, I just think in a

country as advanced as Britain

nobody should have two suffer that.

And poet Benjamin Zephaniah

reveals why he's been

studying Tai Chi in China.

You are not a body that has a spirit

or a soul. You are a soul that has a

body.

All that coming up.

And Emma Barnett is here ready

to sample your views.

Morning, Emma.

Morning, Sean.

We want you to be

part of our debates.

You can contact us by

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hear your views on the items

in the programme.

Martin Luther rocked the church

establishment 500 years ago -

and we'll be discussing

whether there needs

to be a new Reformation.

And we meet a young painter,

paralysed from the neck

down after an accident,

who has become an

inspiration to others.

Now any opportunity that comes to

me, I just say yes.

At least I can say I tried it.

First, it started in Hollywood,

but now the sexual harassment focus

has shifted to the House of Commons.

Defence Secretary Sir

Michael Fallon, one

of the most senor members

of the Government, has resigned.

And MPs from both Labour

and the Conservative parties

are under investigation over alleged

inappropriate behavior,

which they deny.

Tomorrow, the Prime Minister meets

opposition leaders to discuss

the introduction of a new grievance

procedure for Parliamentary

staff and MPs.

One backbencher said the scandal

was turning into a witch hunt.

But Labour MP Harriet Harman

responded that "it

isn't a witch hunt,

it's long overdue".

A short time ago on the Andrew Marr

show, Home Secretary Amber Rudd was

adamant they needed to be radical

changes in the way harassment is

dealt with.

What we have seen is the

abuse of power, in particular, and

the widespread cultural change that

needs to take place as we recognise

that. We will be recognising that.

We are going to be making changes

and it has to be -- it has to stop.

Joining us now to

give their views are

Sophie Walker, the leader

of the Women's Equality Party.

India Willoughby is a TV presenter.

Naomi Firsht is a journalist.

And Musa Okwonga

is a poet and writer.

Sophie, are you surprised by the

amount of revelations we have had?

No, not at all. This country voted

last year to take back control.

Women are taking back control now of

their bodies. They are refusing the

idea that this was ever acceptable.

It wasn't acceptable 15 years ago,

it is not acceptable now. And this

classic diversion into a discussion

about witch witch-hunt and hysteria

is just that. It is a diversion from

the fact that men know where to draw

the line. And they are not harassing

anybody who can fire them. They are

not harassing anybody in positions

of authority. That also reveals that

what this is about is a major

imbalance of power between men and

women.

People say it is a witchhunt

because it is trial by Twitter,

trial by the Internet, before people

can give their side of the story?

No, what is happening is we are

using words we have had for

centuries whenever women challenge

the idea that popular powerful or

even ordinary men could also be

harassers and sexual abusers. They

say they are mad, they are liars,

this Be happening. When you look at

the specifics of these cases, these

are people who have reported, and in

most cases been told it is dealt

with, it has been dismissed, be

careful about your careers or be

careful what will happen to you

next... We have seen these women

being taken apart in the media. The

idea that these are women who are

looking for attention or somehow

victimising themselves given the way

that they are greeted is folly.

Naomi, Harriet Harman says it is

long overdue. Men will clean up

their act, they will sort themselves

out and this sort of behaviour won't

happen?

There is a bit of a trial by

Twitter going on. That is quite apt.

This is becoming a bit hysterical.

We are seeing more panic. What

worries me is that we are seeing

this conflation of very serious

allegations. These need to be dealt

with very seriously. We are also

seeing allegations of someone

touching someone's knee. Somebody

sending a text message that is at

worst sexually flirtatious. That is

not sexual harassment. We should not

be lumping these things together.

That denigrate serious crime like

rate. -- rape. It criminalises

innocent behaviour. Like flirty text

messages, which is not sexual

harassment. We need to draw the

line.

Criminalising normal

behaviour?

This isn't so much as a

witchhunt than the tip of an

iceberg. It is a great opportunity

to have this conversation not just

in Hollywood in Westminster but in

relation to our own industry, spoken

word.

As a man do you fear you are

being lumped in with this?

No, I

don't feel that. Unsolicited

advances, sexual harassment are all

branches of the century. They exist

on a continuum. Word-macro happens

when power is wielded a woman to the

nth degree. -- rape.

I don't think

you can say a 30 text messages on

the same level as a rape allegation.

You might get a flirty text message,

somebody groping you on the tube,

summary asking you out to dinner to

discuss a promotion. More than

likely you will get all of those,

this is about the two minute of the

fact. When we say that this is OK,

we also say that the stuff at the

other end is OK. And frankly, we are

living in a country where 11 rapes

are reported an hour, one in four

women have experience of domestic

abuse. 50% or more of women have

experienced sexual harassment at

work. We have to call this what it

is. Violence against women and girls

and it happens every layer of our

society.

India, Ruth Davidson said

it is time to clear out the stables

with some pretty big shovels.

It is

the same problem. If you get men and

women in close proximity, there will

always be flirting, affairs and

confusion over what signals are

given. Who would be a man at the

moment? Certainly not me. There is

an arrogance of biology at play

here. At the end of the day men are,

or male species throughout biology,

are the predators, women are seen

often as the more submissive side.

That is putting people in a box,

isn't it?

I think it is true.

I'm

not a predator.

Maybe not a predator

but the dominant species. I think it

is blown out of context. Nobody in

this panel will approve the likes of

Harvey Weinstein what he has been up

two. But when we are talking about

somebody touching somebody's need

ten years ago and they lose their

job, what are we going to do? Are we

going to prosecute people for

bear-baiting?

He was forcing himself

on people. He wasn't touching

people's needs. -- knees. It was a

deeply cynical move.

We're not going

into that.

I'm joined now by the former

Tory MP Edwina Currie.

Good morning.

Hello, Emma.

There has

been a picture painted throughout

the week of Westminster, people in

late-night bar is hanging out, far

from home. Why does there seem to be

so much six and flirting in the

Palace of Westminster?

That was

probably a more accurate picture 40

years ago, or 30 years ago when I

first went in there as a young

member of Parliament. Not least

because in those days there were

only 23 women members of Parliament.

I don't recognise that picture now.

I have to say there is a script

flying around, and we have heard a

bit of it already, but says there

are two species of humanity. One is

men, one is women, and the men are

automatically predators and the

women are automatically victims. I

don't buy into that. It is not a

version of the House of Commons I

recognise and it is not a

description of the House of Commons

to date. Most of the people in there

are young. Most of the people in

there, most of the MPs, have come in

since 2010. There are very few older

and experienced MPs. And I really

felt for the Cabinet Minister,

Michael Fallon, who resigned this

week on the basis of a complete

scrap of rumour. It was absolute

nonsense. It was supposed to have

taken place in 2002. There was

another bid in the paper today, took

place in 2003. The journalist

concerned said he attempted to kiss

her at the end of a lunch. Was this

in public? The moment you start to

examine some of the allegations that

have resulted in good men resigning,

being put under pressure to resign,

they vanish into the air. It is not

all sunshine. There isn't an

iceberg.

Not all of them do. You are

not a current MP. It has been said

by political correspondents that

there is a generational divide,

actually, with some of the older

members of parliament being the ones

coming on this sort of scrutiny. You

cannot sit there and deny that all

of the allegations coming from

researchers who have at the moment

no system in place, the Prime

Minister has said this, to report

their MPs, you cannot deny all of

their experiences?

With due respect,

I can give -- do also to things if

you give me a moment. The list that

came out this week, more than 40

members of Parliament, many of those

allegations are ancient, going back

not ten years but 15 years or more.

Some of those are consensual.

Consent comes into a lot of this.

Some of these are not MPs at all.

The rape allegation, which is

serious, was about somebody who is

not an MP but is a party activist in

the Labour Party. You have to treat

the serious allegations seriously.

As the Prime Minister has set

herself, go to the police. You don't

go to the press. If it is serious,

go to the police. Journalists can

publish any rumour about anybody as

long as they don't name them. That

is what has been going on.

That is

your take on it.

Thank you. Edwina says there is no

iceberg. Good men shouldn't be

losing their jobs based on rumours?

The word good is a dangerous word.

Bit flirtatious.

I work in the

spoken word community. My friends

have been overwhelmed with stories

of rape, in some cases of child

grooming by people are -- active in

the artistic community. Really this

to me is a grave problem. And I

reject the idea...

You are talking

about as if that is a major issue in

your demographic. Are you telling me

that among artistic people there is

a massive problem?

My point being

that this issue exists across

industries. It exists in the legal

world. I was a corporate lawyer by

training. I have a good friend who

lost her job through six

discrimination. It is a broad issue.

It is a structural problem.

I'm

really worried about the rhetoric I

am hearing about women, the

suggestion that all women are

victims or going to be victims. I

have been working in various

industries a decade now. This is not

my experience of work. This is not

my experience of the women I know.

Why would you call them hysterical?

I'm calling what is happening now

hysteria. I don't buy this idea that

all women are potential victims of

sexual harassment.

Who said that?

We

have to understand the context. I

think it is really important to note

that a parliament were sexual

harassment claims this big, is the

same Parliament that has been

cutting funding to domestic violence

refuges, pushing through austerity

policies that are making women

disproportionately poorer and

hurting them disproportionately,

that has not been dealing with the

on affordability of childcare and a

total lack of social care. And all

of these things are part of the same

continuum, which is failing to

understand the huge power imbalance

between men and women that we have

to tackle if we are to end this.

Let's see what men and women are

saying at home.

Yes, Natalie says it is all about

people learning to behave properly

with respect. All of my female

friends have been grabbed and groped

at work. We are finally seeing it as

a part of society we don't have to

put up with. Becky says men are

starting to see what women ever to

live with for years. But now

hopefully men see what we deal with

and can help to stop it. But Paula

says there needs to be a sense of

balance. I worry that some good men,

and they do exist, would be caught

up in this when they have done

nothing wrong. Debbie says it is an

absolute witchhunt. My son is

worried if these tortures somebody's

arm he will be labelled a crazed six

pest. Some men should be called out

but not -- but most don't.

Interesting, looking to the future,

in ten years' time when we have this

conversation, Sophie, will this be

seen as a watershed moment question

mark

for me, certainly, I hope this

is the point where people realise

the UK feminist political not a

niche issue but fundamental to way

we do politics.

I'm worried about

the effect this is going to have on

men and women's relationships in the

workplace. I mean, let's not forget

that people date their colleagues

and marry their colleagues, people

flirt at work and they enjoy banter.

This kind of topic always lends

itself to ending up with more

regulation and I feel like we will

end up in a place where any

interaction between men and women in

the workplace is going to be

regarded as suspicious and that's

not a workplace I want to work in.

In ten years' time, I'm going to get

you together and see who is right!

Thank you.

Poet and performer Benjamin

Zephaniah once described himself

as an angry young man.

Now he says he's an angry old man,

riled about the injustices

in society that he still sees.

There is an epic in my ear, though

the novel in my navel, there is a

classic here somewhere.

You knew at

quite an early age that he wanted to

be a poet, about eight, is that

right?

Yes, I always knew I wanted

to be a poet, even before I knew

what that was.

Where did it come

from? Orange maggot it was about the

love of words. I did not even know

the word poem or poet, I just knew I

loved the way that words rhymed,

I'm

love the way word could have a

different rhythm or meaning

depending on how you said it. Be

nice to your turkey this Christmas.

Don't eat it, keep it alive, it

could be your mate and not on your

plate, said, yellow, Turkey, man,

I'm on your side. There was a period

when I was... I got in trouble with

the law and all that kind of thing

so poetry really did save me. I've

got lots of friends who are turkeys

and all of them fear Christmas day

and they said, Ben, man, I want to

enjoy it. It is a Jamaican turkey!

When you were growing up, your mum

was a Christian, was it an important

part of your life? Width very

important, we were in church all the

time. They were churches with very

charismatic preachers.

I think they

were poetic.

You grew up with your

Christian background and then you

move to raster Ferrari. What

prompted that? -- you moved to Dan

Bunn.

You can be political and

spiritual at the same time, Christie

de started me on the path and

Rastafari continued that and I've

got to a place now where I believe

in God without religion, God before

religion, if you like. I just

believe that God manifests her

through nature and through

meditation, we can get close to God.

Actually, we don't get close to God,

we become one with God.

Talk to me a

bit about meditation because I know

that is important to you, tai chi,

you spend a lot of time in China.

Tell me about where the interest has

come from.

It slows you down. It

calms you down. When you are so

relaxed because you have to be

really relaxed when you are doing

tai chi, there is something about

the consciousness that you have that

makes you realise that you are not a

body that has a spirit or soul, you

are a soul that has a body.

I read

you started writing poetry because

you did not like poetry.

Yes.

What

did you mean by that?

What I meant

was, there was a lot of poetry I was

getting at school that I just did

not identify with, you know. Some of

it was great poetry but it was the

way it was presented to me, and it

was, you know, there's no other way

of putting this, it was dead white

men. I wanted to create poetry that

was different from that. Here, the

past and future meet. This is no

ordinary street. Goodness gracious,

lo and behold, the greatness of the

Soul Road.

You said you were an

angry young man. Are you still

angry?

Yes, I suppose I'm an angry

old man, now, still angry. I'm

surprised I'm still so angry. I

thought... There are so many issues

I thought would have been dealt with

by now. If you look at what people

are talking about right now as we

speak, the kind of abuse against

women in the workplace, wherever it

is, in politics, in the arts or

whatever, if you'd had asked me like

20 years ago, would we be here now,

I would say absolutely not, there

was a big feminist movement in the

70s, we were going to deal with

this. I just can't believe we are

back here. I cannot believe we are

talking about race almost every day

in the media and we talk about

dividing into religious groups and

nationalistic groups and all this

kind of thing. I thought the world

was coming together. I really

thought we were just going to have a

lovefest now. Black is not the

problem. Mother country, get it

right, and just for the record, some

of my best friends are white.

Back

in 2003, you rejected an OBE. Can

you tell me about that?

I don't

really like talking about it because

I always say it is something I

didn't do, I didn't take it, order

of the British Empire, as soon as

you stop reading my poetry, you will

see that I'm against empire. How can

I say that I'm against slavery and

the link to Empire and then attach

it to my name? The day I should have

got my OBE, I was in a book shop in

east London talking to children.

That is where my heart is. Oh, no,

bless myself, clever Trevor's scored

a goal, so he runs up the pitch and

wriggles his botty...

Are you

searching for stroke charity or is

that something you have achieved?

I

have -- searching for spirituality.

I'm not searching any more. In the

80s I used to go to Jerusalem and

Jordan, all these places of

pilgrimage, to try to find myself

and all that kind of stuff. Now I

can find myself wherever I am. I'm

not on a spiritual quest any more.

What I really want now is... I look

at the world and I just want to make

the world a better place.

That

sounds good to me.

I tried.

Perhaps

we could end with a line of your

poetry that you think reflects where

you are at right now. Your attitude.

A line of poetry? Thunder makes me

wonder, lightning makes me like, the

world's a mess but there is hope,

that is why I write.

Benjamin Zephaniah.

Still to come on Sunday

Morning Live...

the Muslim community action

group and how you can

qualify to join them.

You don't need to have a beard to be

part of Bearded Broz or be a Muslim,

we are just a scheme for people who

thought we wanted to do something

for our community.

Have you walked past a homeless

person on the street recently

and wondered whether you should

give them money?

That's a dilemma we'll

be discussing shortly.

First, let's hear about a scheme

launched this week in London

to direct people sleeping rough

to a place where they

can get a hot meal.

Comedians Lee Mack and Sean Lock

were at the launch event

to offer their backing,

along with actress Naomie Harris,

star of the James Bond films

and Pirates of the Caribbean.

I went along too,

in a supporting role.

Earlier this week, a group of

well-known celebrities gathered in

central London to help launch a new

website called NextMeal with the aim

of helping the capital's homeless

find the nearest place to get some

hot food.

Normally, I get applause

when I walk out.

APPLAUSE

Movie star Naomie Harris, best known

for playing Miss Moneypenny in the

latest James Bond films, was at the

launch.

For me, the idea of not

having a roof over your head, not

having a warm meal in your stomach,

you know, I just think they're

rather think that in a country as

advanced as Britain, nobody should

have to suffer that.

The website is

the brainchild of Martin Stone, who

runs a soup kitchen at his church in

Muswell Hill. What exactly does the

website do?

It holds data on all the

provision for, you know, soup

kitchens, advice and support, in

London, so it tells you what

provision is there, what is open now

and it will help you at the instant

of your need.

Comedian Sean Lock is

one of Martin's neighbours and got

involved after he was approached to

help in Martin's soup kitchen.

I

obviously said, I will come up and

help out at some point. I didn't

mean it, obviously. I want to say at

this point, I'm not a good person, I

don't do lots of good charity work.

People knock on my door for

charities and I always have the same

excuse, I'm putting my kids to bed,

I does go, sorry, I'm putting my

kids to bed, even if it's 10:30am on

Saturday. I'm not one of the world's

roll your sleeves up, go out and do

good in the world. I mean to but I

never quite get round to it. I

always find a reason not to do it

but I went up there and did it.

Did

washing up?

Yes, washing up,

serving, collecting plate, chatting

to some of the homeless people who

go to the soup kitchen. My approach

was, "I've done that", like a

parachute jump. But I thought I

could not do this anyway but Martin

said there was another way to help,

he'd created this website, NextMeal,

based in London at the moment and a

lot of people said, what? Homeless

people have phones? Yes, they do. I

got involved with being to help out

in that way rather than the standard

of my washing-up.

And I'd see the

standard of his washing-up.

It's

pretty poor.

Fellow comedian Lee

Mack is on board.

I come here as

pretty much the Newby amongst

everyone because we first met when I

was on a James Bond film with you.

LAUGHTER

The scheme is also aimed at the

wider public and could offer an

alternative way they can help when

encountering someone who is sleeping

rough.

I am the person, really, that

the campaign is aimed at. I have

done the three things you could do,

give money, don't give money, or you

give money and then wonder if you've

done the right thing. When Sean

mentioned it, I wondered what the

correct thing was, what you are

supposed to do and coming here

today, I realised it is not that

black and white. It is not yes you

should or shouldn't give. It is the

third option if you choose to take

it, which is to say, "This will get

you a hot meal".

I think it's very

hard to walk past someone who is

asking if the money and seems to be

in need but the wonderful thing

about helping in the soup kitchen

that I learned was in fact, there

are many places like that in London.

There's no need for anyone in London

to ever go without a meal. Breakfast

is being served all the time, lunch

and dinner. You can have three

meals, hot meals in a day in London

at any time.

To publicise the

website, Londoners are encouraged to

hand out special information cards

to the homeless.

Even if you just

tell people there is a place called

NextMeal, a website, it is fairly

civil to remember.

And the other way

to do it is produced them by magic

and that is why I'm a light

entertainer.

You can actually do it!

You make these judgments, you start

making these judgments and you look

at the person, maybe not as a

person, you look at somebody and

think, is it a scam or is it

genuine? If it is genuine, do they

need the money for drugs or alcohol?

You went to this sort of labyrinth

of moral choices. What it does is...

I don't know the right word to use,

people who are not homeless, walking

past, it lets them know about this

huge network of volunteers, of

charities, not just charities, just

people providing free food to

homeless people in London.

The launch of the new

project, NextMeal.

Let's discuss the broader

problems presented by people

sleeping rough now.

How should we help the homeless?

Joining me now are Matt Broomfield,

a writer and activist.

Jon Kuhrt, Chief Executive

of the West London Mission charity.

And Poppy Noor, a journalist

who used to be homeless.

Matt, starting with you. We have

heard about the dilemma in the film

that people face when I pass

somebody who is homeless. Do you

give or not? What do you say?

As Lee

Mack said, it is not a black and

white issue but the message we are

handed from the government and media

is often that we must not give, we

must create a hostile environment

for homeless people on the street,

such that they feel the only option

they can follow is to go elsewhere

for help but in fact, I think, the

reasons people on the streets are

much more complicated and structural

than simply the fact somebody might

give them 50p as they sit outside

Tesco. You could as easily kill

someone by walking past and not

giving them money as you could by

giving them money, in that sense,

and it is important to tackle these

issues on a wider scale and at the

same time, to take people seriously,

when they say they need money, to

believe them and give them the kind

of dignity and respect they deserve

of handing them what they ask for.

So you say give money?

Yet, I think

so. Have a conversation.

80% of

people, it is estimated in London,

who are on the streets, have an

addiction of some sort. People will

think you are just giving money to

feed the addiction.

I think it is

facile and almost quite cruel to say

that the way an addiction is fed is

by either somebody handing that

money or someone asking for it and

taking it. As we know, the causes

and drivers of addiction are much

more structural and long-term and at

that point when someone is on the

street and asking for money, you

know they are going to get it

somehow, whether they are begging

for hours into the night or whether

they are committing crime, doing

dangerous sex work. They will get

the money.

People think the money is

leading the addiction in helping to

keep them in that state.

I don't

think that is true. The way to help

someone with an addiction is not,

you know, if someone in your family

had an addiction, you wouldn't just

cut them off. You would offer them

support.

Would you give them money

to feed the addiction?

I don't like

the language of feeding the

addiction, the addiction is fed by

the poverty and their surroundings.

The thing is, social injustice is a

huge problem and that is what is

driving the rising numbers of

homeless people. But I just think

that the actual addiction is that

people face are fed by mindless, or

people seeking to be compassionate

but it's not being effective and we

should be kind and seeking to come

alongside people. That is what the

mission is all about, trying to help

people come off the streets but the

people who work on the front line,

I've been working with homeless

people for over 20 years, and Matt

is just wrong, that actually, the

addictions are fed by people handing

over cash and it gets in the way of

helping those people come off the

streets. Being on the street is so

dangerous.

Once you give the money, it is their

money.

Is all about understanding

the terribly warping effects

addiction has. It has affected my

family as well. Matt said if a

member of your family was affected.

My cousin was struggling with heroin

addiction for 20 years. It did him

no good to have money, the money

that he scrounged off people, did

him no good. That caused damage. He

died this Christmas. It was the

terrible reality that so many people

face. The tragic reality is that

people are struggling through a

whole range of issues and we have to

focus on how we help them to come

off the streets.

It is a very

complex picture, isn't it? Not all

people who beg are homeless and vice

versa. It is more complicated.

Yes,

first of all I would ask how you

find out that 80% of people begging

on the street are addicted to drugs.

There are a lot of different forms

of homelessness. People don't

necessarily sit in one place and

beg. They may travel back and forth

on bass -- on buses. It is not all

about people asking for money for

the next hit. You might be as in my

situation young and vulnerable and

you can't live at home any more.

There is a broader question. In

between somebody being homeless and

has not been given money, if there

aren't enough services, if the right

places for people to go, and

homelessness is rising massively and

there aren't enough places for

everybody, if we stopped giving to

everybody, not everybody will find a

bed that night. There is a question

about how we decide how people

should deal with their misery,

they're cold and discomfort, and how

they should live their lives in that

situation.

I'm joined now by someone

who once was homeless,

and is now a member of the House

of Lords - John Bird, founder

of The Big Issue magazine.

Good morning.

Good morning.

You have

written previously that people

should not give cash to those on the

street. Do you still have that view?

I have had all sorts of views. I

started by believing it was better

to give the people on the streets

because there wasn't enough revision

from all the organisations. I moved

on to changing my mind and saying

that actually it's not a good idea

to keep people on the streets. What

I think the real problem is the fact

that if you don't give the people on

the street, is the provision there

for them to get off the streets? My

argument, the reason I went into the

House of Lords, is to dismantle

poverty, to stop poverty from

happening, preventing property. --

poverty. All of the debates are

always around accepting the fact

that people should street -- Street

on the streets. And should be added

begging. I would go back to removing

people from the street and putting

them in a place of safety. As far as

my experience is concerned, most of

the people I know on the streets are

either having mental health problems

or will for as long as they are on

the streets. This is a national

health issue. This is not just

about, can we do this, can we do

that? It is a real big issue. The

big issue, what are we going to do

about those poor people who are

dying before us? What I want is the

government to put money into places

of safety. Not the old mental

institutions. When they close down

in 1985, the streets filled up

almost immediately. I want to extend

this argument. The A&E department

has moved to our streets. And I

really regret that.

In the meantime,

when people are walking past those

who are homeless, perhaps today,

what should they do? They are at

with your power.

I'm sorry, it is up

to you. I agree with the chap who

says it is not black and white. I

agree with him. This is not black

and white. You have to try to engage

with that person. I always talk to

homeless people. I give money to

homeless people when I can help

them. But the problem is, the reason

I started the big issue was because

I wanted to lift people out of

begging, because begging screws your

mind.

Thank you. You have been

getting in touch. Erin says if she

see someone on the street when she

is grabbing lunch, she doesn't

hesitate to pick some lunch up for

them. Human interaction, that goes a

long way. Stewart says there are

loads of empty buildings all over

the country, give the property

owners in a 100% business rape

relief that if they allow empty

buildings to be used as shelters.

Another one from Sara Ogilvie says

the problem is some of the homeless

are Thomas. They are beggars looking

for money to get going. Yes, the

genuine ones do need help, but who

is genuine and it was not? And other

wants to help people wants to help

themselves. You can get off the

streets with hard work and

determination. I know, I did it. Now

I want to help those who wanted.

Nathan says scrap foreign aid until

there is no more homelessness. We

seem to care about others than

helping are wrong. Why do we vote?

For our own downfall. Thank you.

One of the things John Bird

mentioned was that if we are told

not to directly give to someone who

is homeless, we should not give that

as an excuse not to give at all.

That is the problem, people say, it

is not my problem.

Absolutely. We

should be giving and we should be

involved in this issue. And we

should be angry about how rough

sleeping has increased in the last

five years. It is a scandal. And

giving time and thoughtfully

encouraging people to make use of

the services that are available.

There is a shortage of hostel beds,

there is a shortage of affordable

housing. There isn't a shortage of

food. As Naomie Harris said, there

are places where people can go. I

would urge people when engaging with

someone who is sleeping rough, there

is a phone number people can form

where the outreach services can be

connected, but also to go to the

churches, the Centre is available

locally, where they can start making

the steps to come off the streets.

Poppy, you were nodding during John

Bird's interview. You spend time on

the street yourself.

I haven't. I

lived in hostels. There are lots of

different types of homelessness.

That is why you have to judge had on

a case to case basis. -- judge it.

Not everybody will want the money

for drugs. There could be loads of

reasons why they are asking.

You can

either be the kind of person who

gets to the end of the week and

thinks, no -- good, nobody fooled me

today by being a fake homeless

person. Or maybe you say, maybe

somebody did trick me but I know

that I helped.

I am afraid we are out of time.

Thank you all very much.

Now to a group of unique

volunteer workers.

The Bearded Broz began as a group

of friends clearing up

rubbish in Birmingham.

Since then, with their hi-vis

waistcoats and high energy approach,

they've become a familiar

and welcome sight around

the West Midlands.

Despite the name, having a beard

isn't a criteria for entry -

so Mehreen Baig was able to spend

a day as an honorary Bro.

Meet The Bearded Broz. They began as

Muslim volunteers who got together

in the summer to clear rubbish left

on the streets during the Birmingham

bin strike.

Ideally what you should

be doing is going to the tip.

Since

then, they have swelled in numbers

and taken on other projects like

tidying up city parks. And everyone

is welcome to join.

You don't need

to have a beard. You don't have to

be Muslim. We were just a scheme of

people who thought, let's do

something for our community. It is

not going to stop here.

One of the

schemes are helped to run is a food

bank for needy families. Imran, one

of the founders, is manning the

phones today.

Thanks, brother. God

bless. Bye-bye. What we have is a

refugee family, two children, a

three-year-old and 11-year-olds.

They haven't got any food. They have

been without money since September.

Social services have recommended we

help these people.

This must be

difficult because you are faced with

the stories on a regular basis?

Absolutely. It is heartbreaking. A

lot of our volunteers, a lot of

people are left in tears.

This is

where the food is kept? Sugar,

biscuits, pasta or writes.

The

family is mum and dad and two

children. They will get four these.

That would be sufficient for seven

to eight days. Rice pudding is

extremely good for kids.

Soup is

good. It is winter. It is cold. That

will warn them up.

Yeah. What you

see here now you will not see

tomorrow.

Some people so close to

home are having this for breakfast,

lunch and dinner every day. It

really highlights how grateful we

can be and it is quite unsettling.

It makes you think about all the

food you have wasted. All of the

food you have moaned about. I'm

sorry, I'm going to cry. Imran works

hard but feels it is a duty.

In

Muslim is not a Muslim if he goes to

bed satisfied while his neighbour

goes hungry.

Name-macro deliver

emergency passes around the city day

and night. -- The Bearded Broz. Have

you ever had people, where you have

turned up on the doorstep, and they

have seen that you are a Muslim and

they are quite nasty?

No. We have

gone to the door and their like, my

God, I didn't know Muslims like you

existed. I think people have a very

narrow minded tunnel vision of

Muslims. And I think this sort of

thing really brings it home to say,

hold on, not everybody is the same.

Inbee Park the team is going strong.

No time for a chat.

Surrey! I

thought I was running the show.

Some

volunteers joined The Bearded Broz.

Contacted him. I came out the next

day.

Imran has done a lot for us. We

are trying to give back and see what

-- what we can do to help.

It feels

great to be here to help Imran. At

the end of the day he helped me, so

off I can help him, all the better,

really.

I am trying really hard to

turn my life around. This gives me

out of trouble.

When I have been in

this situation people and help me.

It is nice to stop other people from

getting themselves in big trouble

and ending up on drugs.

Now read is

one of the founders of the group.

Within nine to five job, fitting in

volunteer work is a challenge.

I

say, I'm just popping out for a few

minutes. Then a clearer view

streets. It is like being Superman.

You put your high visibility jacket

on, you run round the corner, and

you do your work. It is not easy.

You guys have done really well.

Nature is natural and having rubbish

about is making it look untidy and

it is not very nice. People like us

need to clean it up.

We are the

decent people. Let's carry on

cleaning. There is plenty of litter

but it can hold hidden dangers.

You

have to be careful where you step on

what you pick up. You pick up a

crisp packet then there could be a

couple of needles in there.

Name-macro may be relatively small

but they are doing a big job by

pulling the community closer

together.

-- The Bearded Broz. I'm

really happy that other people are

coming to this and they are saying,

this is our community and we are

going to do something about it. As

you can see, it's across the board.

The community cohesion is there.

This is what I almost -- always

dreamt of and we have got it.

This week marked 500 years

since the German scholar and monk,

Martin Luther, started

the Reformation by hammering

95 theses to the door

of the Castle Church in Wittenberg.

Luther felt the Catholic Church had

moved away from the teaching of God

and was corrupt.

His actions set in motion the

formation of the Protestant Church.

On Tuesday, a group called the

Protestant Truth Society took out

a full page advert in

the Daily Telegraph saying that

Britain needs reformation today.

It suggested that, just

as in Luther's time,

today's society has turned away

from the teachings of the Bible.

So are they right -

do we need a new Reformation?

Here to discuss that

are Duncan Boyd, the Director

of the Protestant Truth Society,

who placed the advert

in the Telegraph.

Ariane Sherine, a comedian

and writer who was part

of the UK's first ever atheist

advertising campaign.

And Rabbi Jonathan Romain from

Maidenhead Synagogue is a writer

and interfaith campaigner.

Duncan, you are part of the society

that called for the new Reformation

this week. What is so wrong with

modern society that we need a

Reformation?

Well, we can see that

there are a lot of problems in

Britain today. We don't live in a

society which is without ethical

questions, without ethical problems.

People have many questions about

these things and the two other

debates that you've had on the

programme before on homelessness and

sexual harassment, raised ethical

questions so people have a question

about what is right and wrong. The

Protestant Reformation was important

because it said that the answer to

those questions are found in what

God says to us. There is an

objective standard of right and

wrong. That objective standard is

not set by us. It is set by God. If

you want to know what God says, what

the standard is, you need to read

his word.

Ariane, if we were more

religious, we would be a better,

more moral society?

Absolutely not,

absolutely not, religious people

don't have a monopoly on morality.

We live in a beautiful country and

it is so ethnically diverse and

socially progressive. We are more

liberal than ever. We have equal

rights for gay people to marry and I

believe this is something that

Duncan wanted to put in his advert,

that gay people shouldn't be allowed

to get married and I think that is

wrong. He says there are ethical

debate and he's coming down on the

wrong side of all of the debates,

for gay rights, abortion and

euthanasia, to name but three.

Jonathan, is an established church a

good or bad thing?

Actually, I think

it does quite well in two centres.

Firstly, it is a source for ethics,

not the only one by any means but it

is able to hold up truth to power

and able to hold an ethical

scorecard, even to government and

secondly, it's a very good at every

now and then expressing a national

will. It may not capture everybody's

mood on a Sunday morning but for

those big occasions, it has got the

right tools, Thanksgiving, a

coronation aura when it -- or a

wedding, expressing morning at a

funeral. We are at age 's pointed

today where frankly, in some ways,

the church has failed because

churches are emptying and it has

lost the country due to have 100

years ago but on the other hand,

people still have religious

inclinations and asked the big

questions. Who am I? Where am I

going? What is it for? Perhaps

Duncan is right, we need a

Reformation but the church needs to

look in the mirror and say, "What

are the good things and where have

we gone wrong?" Maybe the problem

is, people believe in the ethics and

morality but not necessarily the

doctrine.

We were let Duncan picked

up on that. But first, let's see

what people are saying ten. Jed

says, Brittany direct mission but

not in terms of our superstitious

past, we need to develop the new

enlightenment that is happening

naturally". Karen says, "Anything

that cap present the teachings of

the Bible in a modern, non-fusty way

can only be a good thing. If we can

no learn and live good lives from

the Bible 's word, surely we will

benefit?"

Duncan, what are you worried about

if we don't have a Reformation now?

Wright I think British society would

cover much more ugly place. People

will become more selfish.

I'm

agreeing with Jonathan that the

heart of the Christian faith is the

Christian gospel, so the heart of it

is a theological truth, Jesus Christ

was God incarnate. If you wish to

come to know the God who made you,

you need to repent of your sins and

put your faith in Jesus Christ, it

is called theological truth but I

think also the Ten Commandments, I

think are of abiding, universal

authority. The Ten Commandments are

regression of two other

commandments, when Christ was asked

by a Pharisee, what are the most

important commandments, he quoted

from Leviticus and Deuteronomy and

from Deuteronomy is, "You shall love

the Lord your God with all your

heart, all your mind, all your soul

and all your strength", and the

quote from Leviticus 19 is commie

"You shall love your neighbour as

yourself". If we all adhere to those

standards, we will have a better

society.

Ariane, you are shaking

head and if you had a Reformation, I

suppose you would get rid of

religion?

I think everyone has the

right to believe what they want but

these are problematic ideas, the

idea of sin, you believe in original

sin.

I do.

I have a six-year-old

daughter, she's wonderful, she's

never seen me on TV before so hello,

Lily, she's the most innocent,

funny, sweet girl and of course she

is naughty but this idea that

children are born evil and people

are born evil, I mean, I spent my

childhood being told by my dad that

I was bad and wrong and disgusting

and revolting and eventually I ended

in a -- in an abusive religion

should because that is what happens

when you tell people they are

worthless, when people grow up

believing they are inherently bad

and I think that is morally

reprehensible and the idea that

Christians have amorality --

monopoly on morality, look at Donald

Trump and the majority of the Tory

party are Christian and they are not

improving people's lives.

You are

created in the image of God and so

is your daughter. That means she is

of infinite value. You're quite

right, I believe in the doctrine of

original sin but it teaches two

things, one is that we are created

beings, God made us, we did not make

ourselves.

God made us and that

means your daughter is of infinite

value in the eyes of God. That it is

also true that the Bible teaches

that we have a corrupt nature. We

have a balance towards sin. It is

not saying your daughter is

worthless, original sin does not

teach that.

Let's talk about

Ariane's daughter or theology too

much. Jonathan, are you optimistic

religion can thrive in the future,

when we have this conversation,

looking back, will it be very

different?

I think religion has a

curious opportunity at the moment,

precisely because local pubs,

village halls and community centres

are growing but churches and other

religious institutions are

wonderfully placed to offer a place

of community and I think that is

what people want, community and

camaraderie and fellowship with an

ethical base. They are not really

into doctrine which is why churches

are emptying. It is almost as if

people want to believe but find they

can't believe what is on offer so

maybe the church, if you don't mind

me saying so, as do sort of change

horses a bit and concentrate on the

community and play to its strengths,

not some of its weaknesses.

Thank

you for joining us.

In 2009, 17-year-old

Henry Fraser was enjoying life.

He loved sport and was

a promising rugby player.

But an accident in Portugal

while on holiday with friends

changed everything, leaving him

paralysed from the neck down

and facing challenges

he could never have imagined.

Wendy Robbins went to meet Henry

to find out how he rebuilt his life

Eight years ago, everything in Henry

Fraser's life changed. An accident

left him paralysed from the neck

down. But that hasn't stopped him

from pursuing new goals and dreams.

Hi, Henry. How are you? VERY good,

thank you, how are you? Very well,

lovely colours. The injury that left

Henry paralysed was caused by a

split-second of bad luck while on

holiday with friends in Portugal.

I

woke up late, down to the beach,

very hot day, me and two other guys

went to run to the water to cool

down. I ran to what I thought was a

good depth and I dived forward but

where I dived, the sea bed was very

undulating and I dived in and banged

my head straight into the sea bed. I

opened my eyes to be looking down

and my arms were just dangling in

front of me, not able to move at

all. After that point, I thought

that was it for me. Two of my mates

dragged me onto the beach and from

then on, kind of, everything

changed.

His mum Francesco remembers

vividly the day she found out about

the severity of her son's injury.

I

remember the time, I got a call at

5:30am from one of the parents and

as soon as you hear it is one of the

parents of the boys your son is away

with, immediately just get that

feeling much your whole body just...

Is aware that something is not

right. He told us Henry had had an

accident. We just booked the next

flight out.

You must have been

terrified.

It's really weird. You

just go into motion, you just go

into the process. Once we got to

hospital and then found the

intensive care unit, we were waiting

and waiting and then the surgeon

comes in and he immediately told us

our son was quadriplegic and would

be for the rest of his life. So my

instant reaction was to scream and

he basically said, "Mrs Fraser, your

son needs you now more than ever, so

have control", and I did. OK.

Two

months after the accident, Henry

caught sight of his own reflection

for the first time.

I looked at it

and said, "That's not me". I had

lost four stone. I just lost it. I

was just crying, staring at the

ceiling, then kind of just thought,

"Well, there's no point in being

sad, it has happened, I may as well

just get on with it". From that day,

my mindset completely changed, from

that day, I could focus on what I

needed to focus on and avoid

anything negative or pointless or

anything that would not help me

progress.

Henry is determined to

make the most of the very few

movements he is capable of, using

the only working muscles he has at

the back of his neck and it is those

same neck muscles which now allow

him to express himself so

creatively. How did it start? What

made you think, "I'm going to put a

paintbrush in my mouth and paint

like that"?

It all started because I

had a sore on my back so I was stuck

in bed for a few weeks and was

getting really bored, and thought I

would find something to draw with,

something different to do. It

started that way, kind of, very

basic drawings, and then when I was

well enough to get out of bed, I

came downstairs and was using

pencils, and a few months after

that, I was given this easel so I

could use paint and paint brushes.

What do you get out of painting in

this way?

It kind of gives me a

freedom and an independence, I can

sit here without needing anyone to

come in and check on me and if I

need help -- I don't need help with

paint or changing brushes, sometimes

I can sit for hours in my own world,

doing what I want, what I love. That

is really why I love it and enjoy

doing it.

Life today couldn't be

more different from Henry's teenage

years in so many ways.

Before my

accident, I was very physically

strong but mentally weak, I used to

say. I turned down so many

opportunities I was given. I was too

scared to do them and I was too

scared of failing. Now any

opportunity that comes to me, I will

say yes, and if I fail, it doesn't

matter, at least I can say I tried.

Now he has a full life, juggling his

two passions, motivational speaking

and his art. You are an inspiration

now to so many other people but what

inspires you? What makes your life

meaningful?

I get to wake up and do

a job, and jobs that I really love

and really enjoyed and when I look

at my life in that way, I consider

myself very lucky. Honestly, I'm

never down about my situation. I

like trying to push myself now,

whether it be during physio or with

art. It has given me that joy, that

love for creating a painting and

drawing. If I hadn't had the

accident when I was going through

school, I would have given up art.

It has given me a gift because I

have been given some incredible

opportunity through my art. I had my

first ever public exhibition last

summer. The Times commissioned me to

do a piece for their front cover for

the Rugby World Cup two years ago.

I've met some incredible people

through it as well. It has kind of

taken over and given me so much.

Henry Fraser, an inspiration.

That's all from us for this week.

And for this series

of Sunday Morning Live.

We hope you've enjoyed

it as much as we have.

Many thanks to all our guests

today and throughout

the series, and you at home

for all of your contributions.

For the last time this year,

it's goodbye from everyone

here in the studio, and the whole

Sunday Morning Live team.

Goodbye.