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The route to happiness, and forgiving the people who hurt us. | :00:00. | :00:29. | |
Good morning, I'm Niki Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
Today we're live from the Michaelston Community | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
This week the Dutch held a general election. | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
Geert Wilder's far-right Party of Freedom won 20 seats and was only | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
beaten by the centre-right People's Party, led by | :00:44. | :00:51. | |
Prime Minister Mark Rutte, which gained 33 seats. | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
But Mr Rutte had to emulate some of the populist sentiments espoused | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
Next month the Front National's leader, Marie le Pen's | :00:57. | :01:07. | |
anti-immigration and anti-Muslim ideas will be put to the test in | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
Polls predict she will go through to the second round in May. | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
And in September Alternatif fur Deutschland, the German far right, | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
will challenge Mrs Merkel's reign as Chancellor. | :01:19. | :01:19. | |
Populist parties and policies have been gaining ground here too, | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
with the Brexit vote and, in Wales, Ukip's seven seats | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
The idea that ordinary people have been exploited by a privileged | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
liberal elite seems to have taken hold across the continent. | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
Are Europe's powerless taking control? | :01:35. | :01:43. | |
David Goodhart, you have written an interesting book about this. You can | :01:44. | :01:55. | |
expand some of the ideas. It is the dispossessed, be ignored, the | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
neglected, the marginalised, the powerless kicking back. What are | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
they kicking back against? It is true, but not a single Populist | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
party is in government across Europe, unless you include Poland | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
and Hungary, as some people do. Populism does represent a partly | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
legitimate reaction to the over domination of our politics by quite | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
a large group of people, most of them perfectly decent people, in my | :02:25. | :02:36. | |
book I call them The Anywheres. They tend to be well educated. They have | :02:37. | :02:47. | |
been to a good university and so on. They have dominated the political | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
agenda to a certain extent. The expansion of higher education and | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
the less good options people who don't take the higher education | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
path. And the Middle status jobs that people used to enjoyed that are | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
not there so much. Large-scale immigration, have freedom of | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
movement, people can take advantage of it if they are highly educated. | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
You are a lawyer and you can go and work in Berlin for a couple of | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
years. One third of all people working in food manufacturing come | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
from Eastern Europe and that has happened in the last ten years. You | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
see it as a threat and competition. What about the social agenda, social | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
progress that has happened? Most people in some ways, go along with | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
that. Some people might call it a contradiction in terms, but | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
something I call decent populism. If you look at the rise of | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
liberalisation on race, gender and sexuality, the vast majority of | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
people in this country, including the more subtle communitarian, go | :03:56. | :04:05. | |
along with those changes. There is some pretty hard-core authoritarian | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
populism represented by Geert Wilders, extreme anti-Islamic agenda | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
and then you have more mainstream and decent populace, I will include | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
Ukip in that. But the argument now is how we give the somewhere is a | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
legitimate voice. They feel and have been to some extent, excluded from | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
the political agenda. But the big thing among society, the The | :04:32. | :04:39. | |
Anywheres, and you can see an argument going on between those who | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
say, we have screwed up and got this wrong. We have not been representing | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
the views and interests of the large part of our population. And those | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
who say no, these are the Barbarians. The outcome of the | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
debate and the future of politics depends on it. You mention Ukip, | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
John Rees-Evans, who are the people left behind, why are they | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
antipathetic to the liberal consensus? Frankly because the elite | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
liberal, highly educated people who think they represent the ordinary | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
people and who often campaign this fiercely to help ordinary people, | :05:24. | :05:25. | |
frankly don't understand ordinary people. You do? I think Ukip is most | :05:26. | :05:33. | |
in touch with the ordinary people and that was proved on the 23rd of | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
June last year. On the 22nd of June, three quarters of our allegedly | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
representative elected people in parliament came out in favour of | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
remaining in the European Union. The next day, we proved quite clearly, | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
the majority of people in this country want people out. You've got | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
kicked in the backside in Stoke? That is obvious. How would you | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
characterise the beliefs of the ordinary people who are at odds with | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
the liberal elite, what do they believe, what do they think? They | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
want to be left alone to work hard, to support their family, run their | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
own country and not be interfered with by, you know, foreign agendas. | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
The ordinary British person respects other nations, is friendly to | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
foreigners coming here, wants to treat people decently, but believes | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
our elected representatives whose salaries they pay and who they | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
elect, have a primary responsibility, and moral | :06:40. | :06:41. | |
responsibility to look after the interests primarily of the people of | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
this country and not the people of other countries. Do you want to come | :06:46. | :06:54. | |
in here? I agree there is a disconnect between political elite | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
and everyone else, and I think that has happened over the years, but the | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
answer isn't to say, they are wrong, they are right and this division | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
between the elite and everyone else is to say, what is underlying that | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
isn't an understanding of immigration and what is happening, | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
but economic anxiety, what has happened is you call them a liberal | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
elite and they focus on a progressive agenda in terms of gay | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
marriage and equality, which is a good thing, but they have ignored | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
issues of economic equality. They have ignored that they have | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
continuously cut taxes for corporations, they are hitting the | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
poorest the most. Why are some people who are uncomfortable with | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
changes in our society, why are they uncomfortable, why haven't they | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
adapted and gone on with the general flow? Faiza Shaheen, do you want to | :07:48. | :07:58. | |
answer that? Some people are not comfortable, we need the | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
conversation. What is the conversation? People say this to me, | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
I am worried about immigration and I think it is taking jobs. It is | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
understanding why it is. My answer is, tell me about your workplace, | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
what has happened? Tell me about your neighbourhood, what has | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
happened? Sometimes the isn't a story about immigration, sometimes | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
there is. A very often, these people are coming in and undercutting | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
wages. But when you look at who is allowing that to happen, it is the | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
bosses. It is a misplaced anger. Are they misinformed? It was the bankers | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
that crashed the economy, we have to remember why this stuff has | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
happened. It is because of an economic liberal elite, not just | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
progressive. John, come back in. Say you have a company and you are | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
competing in your industry against your competitors and you have this | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
situation where the government has allowed our labour market to be | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
massively oversaturated, driven down wages. You have got to compete, you | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
want to drop your operating costs. You may be the most patriotically is | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
on in the country, but it is deliberately possible to pay more to | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
a local person than it is to be someone from abroad. The government | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
has said we will control immigration, not oversaturated the | :09:31. | :09:40. | |
job's market. I didn't get a chance to make my point. Patriotically | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
employers... Patriotically employers? Patriotically employers, | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
the type that Faiza Shaheen is saying the cause of the employment | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
of foreigners rather than locals, if the government controlled | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
immigration we would be on a more even playing field. You cannot blame | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
the bosses, they don't control immigration. We are setting the | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
debate up in an narrow way, but there is only one answer, the | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
dispossessed taking control? No, they are giving more control over to | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
those who have fundamentally exploited them. The election of | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
Donald Trump in the United States of America is about many things. Is he | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
going to drain the swamp, make circumstances better for the | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
American worker or is he going to self and rich? Is the exploitative? | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
Creme De La Creme he is exploitative. When we remove | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
political economy from the arguments, we make it about | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
constraining the circumstances of the debate. Are people being conned? | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
People are frustrated they exist in a precarious existence. There are | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
much greater problems they face and they look to the wrong arguments. | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
They look to the wrong causes and they look to symptoms of their | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
exploitation, they don't look to the global financial crisis. People are | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
being fooled, people are being conned and people are being | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
exploited? People like this gentleman here. You can put your | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
hand down now. A couple of years ago a Tory MP was sacked more or less | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
for calling somebody a pleb. Why don't people talking like this just | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
call us plebs, because I am a populist. The way people are talking | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
like this, that I have lived through some halcyon world for the last 50 | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
years of my life since I started voting. It hasn't been like that. | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
These politicians, they have led us down roads from the very beginning. | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
It started in 64 when I voted to join the Common market and I was | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
told a pack of lies then. It carried on with Harold Poulsen further on, | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
the pound in your pocket when the pound was being devalued. Do you | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
think they are lying to you? Of course they are, the way they talk | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
down to, it is unbelievable. David Goodhart, that has distilled how | :12:26. | :12:33. | |
people feel? A lot of people that run the political parties, the | :12:34. | :12:35. | |
openness of the kind that has evolved over the last 20, 25 years, | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
much more globalisation, European Union, freedom of movement, all of | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
these things work for some people and don't work so well for other | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
people. What Faiza Shaheen saying about employers, perfectly | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
illustrates the rise of populism because people on the left say to | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
people know, you don't feel that, look at this. They keep wanting to | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
change the subject, which is why people think the centre-left parties | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
don't represent them. You are right about employers. The national social | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
contracts in employment have become disregarded. The amount of money | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
employers spend on training in the last 20 years has fallen by one | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
third. There is a reserve army of labour they can just take from | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
continental Europe. Do you realise how many construction | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
apprenticeships began last year? Just 8000. We are meant to be | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
building millions of houses and we are not educating and training | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
people to do it. We have moved from the situation in the 1970s where we | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
had a trade surplus of 20 million and now we have a trade deficit of 5 | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
billion. To tell people we are not seeing decline, people are seeing | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
it. But are they blaming that decline on the international | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
financial markets? Are they blaming it on the super-rich who are | :14:05. | :14:06. | |
exploiting them? Or, are they blaming the people close by? We all | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
want to buy cheap goods that are made elsewhere? Of course we should | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
be doing something about globalisation, but the story that | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
has emerged is about those people that have lost, turning against each | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
other. When we talk about the pilots, it is not just the white | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
working class, the white working class is multiracial. Cleaning, | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
caring and those are low paid jobs. Instead of this group coming | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
together and saying, we want more representation, we want to make sure | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
policies of their two protectors and we don't have zero hours | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
contracts... We have taken so much out of politics. | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
We're doing an enquiry into the growth of technocracy. So many | :14:55. | :15:08. | |
things have been taken out of the... Technocrats are inevitably anywhere | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
people. People with the instincts of the highly educated, the preferences | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
of the highly educated. This has not a democracy. People are saying, we | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
want some of it back. We mention Trump. What is it you like about | :15:22. | :15:30. | |
Donald Trump? The fact is, what you said... I would like to ask about | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
Donald Trump? What she said is correct, what Faiza said is correct. | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
We are not looking at the real enemy and we are arguing amongst herself. | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
Organisations like Gideon's educates people about this. I have read a | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
couple of his white papers. What they teach is that one of the causes | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
in the reduction in employment is the automated tendency, this is | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
about Trump. OK. He has an automated tendency. What is it you like about | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
him? We have not got a lot of time. Because he wants to reduce | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
regulation. If you take away regulations, you're harming the | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
people, that is what people think. That is nonsense. You take away | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
regulations and you give small businesses the opportunity is to | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
compete. Does he represent the ordinary man and woman? He is | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
fighting for them. He knows how to create jobs and make money. You do | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
not have to like the man. But you have to acknowledge she knows how to | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
create jobs. He knows how to make money critically affect -- pretty | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
effectively as well. Michael is over here. I do not think Trump's | :16:45. | :16:52. | |
admissions are promising. We have international economies and national | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
politics. One camp is to make things at the level of the nation state, to | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
return power to politics. This is the Trumps, the Ukips of the world. | :17:05. | :17:13. | |
The power is no longer there. Trump's solution, opening coalmines | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
again, that is the past, not the future. We need to be more | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
imaginative if we want a better tomorrow. This gentleman, hello. | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
People like Trump and Theresa May to an extent in this country, Theresa | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
May has seen an opportunity with a very weak opposition in the Labour | :17:32. | :17:39. | |
Party, the votes have been haemorrhaging to Ukip. She is trying | :17:40. | :17:47. | |
to take over the reins from Ukip. Her rhetoric is about trying to | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
increase the Tory vote might rather than what is good for the | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
dispossessed. She talks about the just about managing. The black | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
T-shirt. Good morning. We have heard a lot about misplaced anger. I agree | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
with those sort of sentiment but how do we deal with this? We have heard | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
about all these facts and figures, alternative facts, fake news as it | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
is called, bandied around. I am a teacher. I think the key to this is | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
to get young people to think critically about what they're | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
hearing and seeing. I have brought some of my students here today. That | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
is what we do, we think critically, so they are resilient to some of the | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
so-called facts and figures. It a vital lesson. Absolutely. | :18:37. | :18:37. | |
APPLAUSE Have people been lied to? I think | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
that we should trust people to be able to think critically about what | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
they are being told. But the idea that the solution is education, that | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
somehow if we just educate children to be able to see through the other | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
side, which is all lies, and Arisaig, which is the truth, that we | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
will solve the problems. Your point is important. We have depoliticise | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
the massive range of what used to be the bread-and-butter of politics. | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
And older left-wing idea was that any cook can govern, there is this | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
idea that politics and economic sets something that every day people | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
should be able to understand. Now we have outsourced those questions to | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
technocrats. That is not enough people any more. Instead of | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
understanding that, the left has dumbed down. The conversation is | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
about symbolic things, about language. It is not speaking to | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
everyday people. I completely agree. Lots of these questions, any | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
economics and politics, it has been siphoned away from people. We're not | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
having that conversation in. I would agree about the lack of | :19:52. | :19:53. | |
representation among MPs from people from working-class backgrounds. | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
Black communities are heavily underrepresented in government. I | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
think we agree on that point. My point is that this narrative of | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
divide and rule, blaming the immigrants, is not helping. We need | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
to think about how we come together. The left would say, Syriza are good, | :20:11. | :20:18. | |
Kadima are bad. It is the wrong sort of populism. I do not speak for the | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
left. The left is lots of different people, as is the right. My point is | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
we do not have the political leaders that will come forward and really | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
tell us the story of how we can work. And we do work. This is the | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
world you do not see. Working-class people are growing up together, | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
going to school together, people are marrying each other. That is not the | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
Liberal elite. We see that in working-class communities as well. | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
It is about the pace of change. Those people who feel comfortable | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
with change, because they have achieved identities, done well at | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
school, they have successful careers. They can deal with it. Lots | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
of people see rapid change as a kind of loss. What kind of change the | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
scene, not just economically, social change? This is not so much about | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
material things. This is about no longer feeling your valued by | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
society. All the value has gone on the cognitive elite, people who well | :21:23. | :21:29. | |
in exams. It is also about group attachments. People do not feel | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
gripped attachments. They do not play such a high value a national | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
citizenship because they do not need it so much. For a lot of people, it | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
is part of the security and familiarity that people want. Is | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
this generational, because disproportionately older people | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
voted for Brexit? I do not think so. James Tredwell. Surely it is about | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
both. We are having these old comparisons of left and right. One | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
of the themes about the left, the political left and right, is how | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
close together they have become. Where is the political | :22:07. | :22:08. | |
representation for what would have been the old side of the left to | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
say, what we need is national investment, we do not need | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
austerity, we need a different set? Even now, to represent old-style | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
social democracy, the welfare state, it is made out as if it is from | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
North Korea. There has been an absolute conversion that makes | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
neoliberalism and neoliberal capitalism the only economic system. | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
Is there a way back? It is not neoliberalism. When investment has | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
happened, it has not necessarily connected to the people who should | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
have benefited. That is where Faiza is right, it is the level of | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
understanding that our politicians have of meeting the needs of the | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
people they are serving. The last word. There are real issues for us | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
to be grappling with. People do not like the changes that are coming in | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
the future. Tony Blair was on the Andrew Marr programme this morning. | :23:06. | :23:14. | |
Is there a way back for the Blairite Centre? I hope not. | :23:15. | :23:16. | |
If you have something to say about that debate, | :23:17. | :23:18. | |
log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
We're also debating live this morning in Cardiff: Does | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
Get tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
ideas or thoughts you may have about the programme. | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
Tomorrow, it's International Happiness Day. | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
Don't worry, being happy is not being made compulsory...yet. | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
But governments are increasingly interested in measuring | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
their nation's happiness levels and probing why some countries | :23:49. | :23:50. | |
Denmark tops the league table of happiest countries. | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
The UK is 23rd out of 157 nations, beaten by the Scandinavians, | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
the Dutch, Austria, Germany, Belgium, Ireland, the North | :24:03. | :24:04. | |
Americans and even some South American countries. | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
And the UK itself has happiness high and low spots, | :24:08. | :24:21. | |
with the Welsh borough of Blaenau Gwent, here | :24:22. | :24:23. | |
in South Wales, having one of the biggest gaps between people | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
Liverpool, Sunderland and Rotherham are similarly miserable. | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
Well, researchers have found that the regions in Britain | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
with the highest "wellbeing inequality" were more likely | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
This will link to first debate. Michael, when you're talking about | :24:43. | :24:58. | |
happiness, you said earlier run, it is a positive conscious state. The | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
easiest way to understand happiness is anything which feels good to you. | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
Unhappiness is anything which feels bad. Elation and contentment are | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
different types of positive states, anger and fear are different kinds | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
of unhappy states. We all have those at different times of the day. I | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
like being with my family, walking the dog, playing my guitar. It makes | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
me happy. When I am playing my guitar, the rest of the family are | :25:26. | :25:37. | |
not happy. Yes, we should be looking at how to maximise happiness | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
overall. How do you do that? Where we can really start is by trying to | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
understand what happiness is, and how it works. The standout fight | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
from the happiness literature, we have been collecting data on this | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
for the last 60 years. The most surprising thing is that happiness | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
has not increased. Self-reports of how satisfied people are with their | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
lives, it has not increased. It has not the crease? It has not | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
increased. It has stayed flat. Despite the fact we are much richer, | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
much healthier, we live longer, despite what you might read in the | :26:09. | :26:09. | |
daily Mail, we are safer than ever before, | :26:10. | :26:29. | |
we have better technology. We have everything which we think should | :26:30. | :26:31. | |
make life better, apart from happiness. That should prompt us to | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
as questions about what is going on. What do we do about this? The | :26:35. | :26:36. | |
government are taking this seriously. They are setting out | :26:37. | :26:38. | |
think-tanks, they are going into schools, they are talking about | :26:39. | :26:40. | |
mindfulness in schools? Allgood? It sounds really good, and that is part | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
of the reason we are talking about it now. Who's going to say, we | :26:44. | :26:45. | |
should make everybody miserable. No one say that. I find it interesting. | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
You would almost take the boxes of the claims that people make. I have | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
wrote a book about it. Why have they become so powerful and why are they | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
made in the same over over? One of those is the so-called paradox of | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
prosperity. Happiness levels has stayed the same in spite of | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
increased technology, all these things that should make us happy, | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
increased wealth. But they never say, in spite of the fact that in | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
the United States blacks can drink out of the same water fountain, | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
still no happier, women have more freedom, still no happier. They do | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
not make that argument. Why do we always choose those particular | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
things? It reflects the fact we do not have a positive vision for | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
society any more. We are disoriented from those things that used to be, | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
wealth, well for the population, it will set people free, generalising. | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
That is something that the left and right used to agree on. Could | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
capitalism deliver the goods, that was the disagreement. Now it is | :27:52. | :27:53. | |
difficult to think of a left-wing position that sees wealth in a | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
positive way. The debate about prosperity becomes a bipartisan | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
thing. Most people can agree on it. It depends on this view of | :28:06. | :28:08. | |
happiness. Acquired characteristics? My parents got an eight on the | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
happiness scale. I was born in the 1980s, so I should be and nine. | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
Absolutely not. Everyone is born into a world that is new to them. | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
You do not build on the happiness level. Does GDP have something to do | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
with it, the wealth of the nation? People get over obsessed with GDP. | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
In the 1960s, Robert Kennedy said, GDP measures everything except the | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
things that make our existence worthwhile. It is not a big-screen | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
television, it is a work in the forest? It as a whole range of | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
things. When we are constructing policy, we try to compartmentalise. | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
People do not existing categories. People'slives are diverse. A whole | :28:53. | :29:04. | |
range of things make you happy, the impact on the quality of your life. | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
Are obsessive focus on GDP, the figures we need to increase, the | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
numbers go up and everyone will be happy, of course, it is about the | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
economy, but not just about the economy. There is this | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
disorientation towards what that actually means. It reflects the | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
depoliticisation of the economic ground. Leave that up to the | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
technocrats. You worry about your family and your little microcosm. | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
GDP really does matter. People trying to deflect attention from | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
that, when the economy does not grow, who pays? It is not the only | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
thing that matters. How can we construct public policy | :29:40. | :29:56. | |
that recognises that nuances? It is an impossible dream, something that | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
makes one group content will make another pretty miserable? If you | :30:03. | :30:11. | |
limit the use of motor cars, a lot of environmentalists would say, yes, | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
get in there. People trying to get to work, people on the school run, | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
petrol heads would be very arrestable. Indeed. I was hoping we | :30:20. | :30:29. | |
would stick to your guitar playing. Relating to what was going on, we | :30:30. | :30:36. | |
can think about GDP, a big picture measure of how society is doing. | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
When we can think about the distribution of happiness in it. You | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
began by talking about Denmark, routinely top of the world happiness | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
index. What is it about Denmark we don't have. Denmark is one of the | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
most equal countries in the world. So you are talking about something | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
which you can reliably say people have a stake in. And traditionally | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
thinking about public goods and the kind of society they are, which is | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
more collectivist than ours has now become. Denmark has a way of | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
thinking about a shared project, it is not trouble-free, it doesn't iron | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
out your difficulties, but it is more meaningful to talk about | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
happiness in Denmark because it's not so unequally distribution | :31:28. | :31:35. | |
culling distributed in society. In Wales, why do people feel like they | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
have been left behind or get a raw deal? Because they live in a | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
society, firstly where there are huge disparities in wealth between | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
them and others at the other end of the scale. There is a very poor | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
public conversation. Is it pretty much coveting what other people | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
have? It will feel relative, you will be happier in a society where | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
you are in the same game as everybody else. But somebody who is | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
not in the same game, but happiness has gone? It is about a society that | :32:10. | :32:18. | |
places a huge amount of emphasis on your individual success being tied | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
to your place in the consumer marketplace. If you fail to have the | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
latest items, you don't have a value. That creates a continuing, | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
nagging dissatisfaction for people, they continually feel that... I | :32:33. | :32:40. | |
don't think that is a problem. We Prodl attire is the dissatisfaction | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
and the feelings. Happy people quote Karl Marx, house might be great or | :32:46. | :32:56. | |
small, as long as other houses are equally small. Then people were in a | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
castle and then it is reduced to a halt and we say, Karl Marx says | :33:04. | :33:12. | |
don't covet other people, but what Karl Marx is saying is that cattle | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
could be yours, go out and take it. The happiness people, I love that. | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
Where would we be without sadness as well? We would have no arts, where | :33:24. | :33:30. | |
would Marcy B. Liz, I know you want to talk, you work in companies to | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
try to get people to focus on well-being, content must | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
unhappiness? I will be accused of being part of this happiness people | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
think. I agree with the fact that GDP will focus on economic growth | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
per se, we need economic growth when growth is needed, there is a | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
brilliant economist who say, we have an economy grows whether or not we | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
thrive. We an economy where we thrive, whether or not it grows. It | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
feels like a small shift, but it is huge. At the moment, everything we | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
do, health, economy, the private sector and the public sector is | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
judged on whether or not it contributes to economic growth. In | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
some spaces we need economic growth, in Blaenau Gwent, people desperately | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
need growth in economy that benefits them. But we should all be judging | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
ourselves, each other, our businesses and politicians by | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
whether or not they are doing the sorts of things that help us to | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
thrive as individuals or communities. It is an everybody | :34:38. | :34:45. | |
thing. We need to make that shift. Gideon, there are people who think | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
this is a load of... Careful what word I use here, baloney, they think | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
it is a bit mind-numbing. If this can raise our content levels to | :34:57. | :35:04. | |
Denmark, that is a good thing? Broadly, I would agree. We have to | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
be careful on how simple we think that is. What we did to promote one | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
group's happiness will be at the expense of another. It is not a | :35:15. | :35:30. | |
fluffy thing. What it recognises is that actually we have a piece of | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
legislation in Wales which recognises well-being. Don't talk | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
about happiness per say, but happiness and well-being is | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
intrinsically linked. We have the well-being of future generations | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
act. We have to think about the social, economic and environment and | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
cultural situations. So you can put that in public policy-making terms. | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
You cannot legislate to make your inner being happy, but you can take | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
decisions in a way... What do you want to do that he cannot do now to | :36:05. | :36:11. | |
make is happier? If you think about the way we construct towns and | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
villages. Will we do it in a way that will build a whole load of | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
concrete monstrosities that don't have access to public space | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
facilitate community interaction or engagement. Which don't have | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
environmentally friendly public transport links. Or, will we | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
construct them in a way that thinks about those different facets and | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
relate back to well-being and happiness. That is what they were | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
doing when they built Milton Keynes. The lady on the back row, it is | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
great to be in Wales, a lot others Celtic people are not happy unless | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
we are sad. Good morning. Are you one of the happiness people? I think | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
I am a pragmatist, a realist. Whilst people don't have employment, food | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
on the table and people don't feel safe and they don't have any meaning | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
in their life, when communities are destroyed and weak into fourth | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
generations... People are starving in East Africa? Blaenau Gwent, there | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
are the food banks, Cardiff, all over South Wales, austerity is | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
biting really hard. You cannot have happiness, you cannot have happiness | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
if your fundamental basic human needs are not being met and that is | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
a political issue. John Rees-Evans, what about this idea of people | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
feeling they stifled. I know you say political has gone mad. What | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
concerns me about this conversation, that is we are looking at | :37:49. | :37:50. | |
circumstances as the cause of whether or not people are happy. | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
Circumstances are important, but what is much more important is | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
relationships. I know of somebody who has said that if he divorced his | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
wife, he would be ?3500 better off each year. I think it is incredibly | :38:06. | :38:12. | |
upsetting to me. This is because of government benefits and whatever. | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
Legislation doesn't do anything to encourage people to stay married. | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
The traditional values of this country what I believe have been | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
responsible for our success, our prosperity. Family break-up... Is it | :38:26. | :38:34. | |
same-sex relationships, relationships in communities. What | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
is the type of relationship most people can identify with? Most | :38:40. | :38:47. | |
people like marriage. Having positive relationships, healthy | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
relationships is what makes us happy I merrily. Circumstances become a | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
distant second. My have difficulty with the definition of happiness. An | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
averaged out positive feeling, over a long period of time, I could | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
understand. But maintaining relationships requires us to do | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
things we don't feel good about. Doing our duty, working late at | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
night to make sure we finish a project... Is a traditional marriage | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
the bedrock of society... I thought you might respond like that. | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
Relationships are important and do affect our happiness at an | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
individual level. Well-being, taking it alongside measures of economic | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
growth, it reminds us what it is for. Policymakers forget what it is | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
for. It is not just about growing and it's not just about a segment of | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
the population getting more money, it is about thinking overall what is | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
happening. Are we creating the right environment for all people to | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
flourish and have the chance of happiness? Last word, Michael. Are | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
you happy with that debate? It has shown some of the things which are | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
significant. There is this thought that if you focus on happiness, in | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
means you are not caring about misery and people'slives. Stepford | :40:12. | :40:20. | |
wives? What the literature is meant to shine a light on, you get a story | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
of how inter-personal relationships are important, employment and | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
unemployment is a driver of unhappiness. Open spaces? Yes, what | :40:33. | :40:41. | |
comes out significantly is not the material things of the interpersonal | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
relationships, it is mental health, so our relationships with ourselves. | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
Not sidestepping anything of what she is talking about. That is the | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
danger, it redefines inequality as a subjective things. And that is the | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
debate over. Thank you very much indeed. | :41:02. | :41:02. | |
You can join in all this morning's debates by logging | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and following the link | :41:08. | :41:09. | |
Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too ? | :41:14. | :41:16. | |
And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
We're in Oxford next week, Brighton on April 2nd, | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
Some of you may have heard or seen Thordis Elva and Tom Stranger | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
discussing their book 'South of Forgiveness' on radio | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
During a teenage romance in 1996, Tom, then 18, | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
Now they both want people to understand the shame, blame, | :41:45. | :41:55. | |
silence, and suffering they each went through and the difference | :41:56. | :41:57. | |
forgiveness, decades later, has brought to each of them. | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
Natalie, could you forgive, in that sense, in that way, somebody who has | :42:01. | :42:18. | |
raped you? I think, the first thing is, in your introduction you said | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
about the shame and the pain they both went through, which immediately | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
says the pain of the rapist on the pain of the person who was raped are | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
equal and something we should be caring about equally, when one has | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
inflicted that on another. We have to be aware of that. Incredible | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
thing about their story, the reason it has airtime, is not sadly about | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
Thordis and her choices, for once a man has said I raped somebody and | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
saying up -- standing up and saying that. We shouldn't be applauding | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
that, it is horrific. Do you respect him for that? No, he is a rapist. | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
One of the big issues, women are socialised to be forgiving, be kind | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
and caring and not have anger. One of the things that is liberating for | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
women is anger, rage and fearlessness. What I would say, my | :43:13. | :43:19. | |
personal experience is, I did forgive. You were in an abusive | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
relationship? Yes. Why and how did you forgive? When I talk about rage | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
and anger, women are not given access or permission to rage and | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
anger. We are socialised into having to forgive and socialised into | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
saying, that is what you should do. We see women who forgive and kind | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
loving and a better class of women and that is how this story has | :43:45. | :43:52. | |
panned out between Thordis Elva and Tom Stranger. That is not a model I | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
want to put out. Forgiveness can be liberating, but actually forgiveness | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
can be a tool or weapon. For the majority of women it becomes a | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
weapon to further perpetuate the suffering they have been subjected | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
to. But it can be liberating. In my experience, it has been liberating | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
but I wouldn't want to make it a model for how I live my life. What | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
does it mean in your experience to forgive? Do you communicate that | :44:22. | :44:30. | |
forgiveness to the other person, or are you internalising something, now | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
I will move on and deal with it in a certain way? When I was with my | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
ex-husband I thought forgiveness was accepting what ever he did to me, | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
accepting his behaviour and then it will change if I love him enough. | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
For a lot of women, that is the journey they have been none. | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
Forgiveness for me, understanding forgiveness started by owning how | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
terrible what he did to me was over a period of four years. Saying it is | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
horrendous and it will affect me for the rest of my life and making it | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
visible, the pain of that. Forgiveness is a form of denial. | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
We need to be looking at them or longer term thing. Forgiveness is | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
not nullifying quantities -- the consequences of someone's behaviour | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
towards me. There are consequences. It is not about me communicating | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
that he is forgiven, it is about me not wishing him harm, but putting | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
safeguards in place to prevent him from hurting me. Finn, you are | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
nodding. Do you agree? Could you forgive someone in the same way that | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
Thordis has? The story of Thordis Elva is her own personal, individual | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
journey. She states that in some ways that has helped her to feel | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
more free. I suppose I am also interested in how we can free the | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
whole of society from epidemic levels of male violence against | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
women and children, because an estimated 80,000 rapes every year | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
take place, over 400,000 sexual assaults, two women every week in | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
this country murdered by a violent male partner. Forgiving is about | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
self-help. It is a journey of self help. We should support women to do | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
that and feel in control of themselves and their lives. I do not | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
agree with scrutinising women even more than they are already | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
scrutinised. As well as self-help, we need help from society, we need | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
to heal the problems and fractures in society that cause these | :46:36. | :46:37. | |
horrendous crimes in the first place. Why is there this epidemic as | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
you put it? Because women are unequal. And men are socialised to | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
have entitlement or women's bodies, to be allowed to do that, and that | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
is perpetuated by a wider societal structure, which undermines women's | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
sense of agency. That is what Tom Stranger said. He felt that as a | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
man, it was a victory for him, he had a right over his girlfriend's | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
body because he was dating her. They had been out on a night out, they | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
had been drinking alcohol, and he would not be a proper young man if | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
he did not have sex with her at the end of the night. He said himself he | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
felt pressured, that he did not enjoy it greatly, but he felt that | :47:26. | :47:37. | |
is what he was supposed to do, and it was what he deserved, as if the | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
body of that woman was his birthright. That was his own words. | :47:41. | :47:42. | |
Society allows that to happen. If you look at the other things that | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
are defined as hate crimes, disability, race, misogyny is not a | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
hate crime. On a daily basis, all of the women in this audience will have | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
encountered some form of sexism, whether that is catcalling, | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
something going on in work, a whole range of things. Is that not quite a | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
leap from what we are talking about? THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
It is not. Could you forgive a terrorist? I also believe in | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
rehabilitation, giving people chances. I agree with Tom Stranger | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
speaking about what he has done. Can I picked up on that point. Peter, | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
you were chief executive of the prison Fellowship. You visit people | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
in prisons. Could you forgive someone who killed your child? It is | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
a question I have asked myself a lot. I work with people who go into | :48:31. | :48:41. | |
prison who have forgiven people who have killed their children. I think | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
of a couple. They have been on this programme. They are amazing people. | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
We kept a week, they have managed to go on that journey of forgiveness. I | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
think they do it, because when we forgive, we look at the future, and | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
we say, the past is the past, it needs punishing and dealing with, we | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
do not see it did not happen, but we look to the future and say, I do not | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
want to hold the sense of revenge in my heart. Does it not | :49:10. | :49:22. | |
leave the person that you forgive, let them off the hook? It does the | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
opposite. You cannot forgive unless you first admit that something that | :49:27. | :49:28. | |
needs forgiving has happened. You must never minimise or try and take | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
it away, say it did not matter in any way whatsoever. You say, this is | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
horrible, but I will still choose to forgive. It requires a degree of | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
remorse from the individual, as well. Not necessarily. We will come | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
back to you in a minute, Peter. It requires a degree of remorse? In | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
order to make that step towards forgiveness, someone needs to say, I | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
have also done something pretty spectacularly wrong. I will hold my | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
hands up to that. As a criminologist, I come across a lot | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
of offenders and not all of them are willing to do that. I have concerns | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
when you have government saying, we will force offenders to say sorry. | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
That takes away the self recognition. Do you get fake | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
remorse? I think you do. Some people are incredibly good at playing the | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
system. A famous example, an Austrian serial killer who had been | :50:24. | :50:30. | |
convicted of murder and came out. Who was it? He was an Austrian | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
serial killer. He expressed Morrison became a famed penal reform | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
correspondent. When he was doing that and talking about the level of | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
the Morsi showed, he went on to kill more women before taking his own | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
life. He built his reputation in part, at least, by expressing fake | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
remorse. That is one of the problems. It is very difficult to | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
subjectively get the extent with remorse, whether someone believes | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
what they are saying. You have to define terms. Forgiveness can come | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
in different ways. In the Christian faith, you talk about divine | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
forgiveness, someone asking forgiveness from God, and that is | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
freely given in terms of love. What you're talking about is a two-way | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
restorative relationship. That is good. It affects the other person | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
and gives them a chance to move on in their life. You can also forgive | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
without ever talking to somebody. It is not a transaction? No. With a | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
violent relationship, someone who has been hurt badly, that maybe the | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
best thing. Is forgiveness the right for that? | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE Yes. That is the thing, a | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
recognition that is for the individual. Forgiveness is to give | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
and receive. I would say reconciliation is what you're | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
talking about, when both parties come together. Forgiveness is about | :52:00. | :52:05. | |
an attitude to that person. Go on. I am a counsellor. I have a | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
wide-ranging age group of clients but I mainly work with children who | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
have been victimised in some way. The key for them to start moving | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
forward is to recognise that the event that happened, and no longer | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
see themselves as a victim. Once they have given up that role, the | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
person who carried out the act is no longer the perpetrator of their | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
status. Maybe after that we can start looking at forgiveness if it | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
is going to help them to move on. APPLAUSE | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
Self-definition. Anyone else? The removal of shame is important. If a | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
victim feels shame or responsibility themselves, that is bad for them. I | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
totally take on board that. There is a process that you have to | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
necessarily go through that recognises that you're not | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
responsible. Whether that requires you to forgive the individual that | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
has perpetrated a crime? What is wrong with saying that | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
someone has been victimised. We need to take the stigma away from lots of | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
crimes and especially sexual violence. If someone can go into | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
work in the morning and say, I was mugged the other week, I had this | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
amount stolen, that is terrible, I hope it goes all right. We would not | :53:27. | :53:34. | |
say, I am not a victim. Friends of mine, they have been debating this, | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
who have been sexually abuse, they do not want to be called victims. | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
They are survivors. Yes, they live to see another day, they are | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
survivors. We also need to acknowledge that they are victims of | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
crime. We need to remove the stigma that surrounds that. The shame that | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
women are meant to feel is part of the burden that they alone have to | :53:57. | :54:03. | |
carry. It takes away from their happiness. What about children of | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
whatever gender who are abuse? I agree. Anthony, we heard from Peter, | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
a man who is inspired by his faith. He was talking about the forgiveness | :54:13. | :54:19. | |
of Jesus. Jesus forgive. Yes, but it is far more complex than we have | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
been saying. The issue is not just about gender. It seems to me that | :54:26. | :54:35. | |
forgiveness is overrated. Most people would quote the words of | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
Jesus on the cross, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
do. That is a great example of unilateral forgiveness, they would | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
argue. It is not an example of forgiveness, it is an example of | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
Jesus claims -- Jesus praying for the good of those who were telling | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
him. He did not pray for anyone. He prayed that in the course of time | :55:00. | :55:07. | |
God would forgive. It is a prayer that lays aside Justice in terms of | :55:08. | :55:15. | |
what God is doing. But divine forgiveness, as with human | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
forgiveness, is always proceeded with repentance, genuine sorrow that | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
is lived out. As has been rightly said, how do we know what genuine | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
repentance is? There is a fantastic book by an American, it is called | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
Faking It, in which the author describes how clever people are in | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
faking repentance. Repentance has to be demonstrated, it has to be | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
appropriate, it has to be modelled over a long period of time. Within | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
that context, there can be a movement towards forgiveness. You | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
mention justice. Too often people do not see justice. If we are talking | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
about women and children and the difficulties they face in taking | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
cases forward, the low numbers we have for rape convictions in this | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
country, Justice holds people back, not just as individuals, but the | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
whole of society is held back by not giving justice to who have been | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
victimised. How would you increase the number of rate convictions in | :56:19. | :56:20. | |
this country? I would improve the police. -- rape convictions. There | :56:21. | :56:28. | |
are problems around the number of people who report rape. There has | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
been problems with the police designating rapes as no crime. The | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
CPS does not take cases forward based on stereotypical assumptions | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
about women's sexuality. What was she wearing, had she been drinking? | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
We are still dealing with these stereotypes. You have been listening | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
with great interest. What do you think? I think there is an issue | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
right now around moral panic, all around rape. Do you understand the | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
definition of that? Yes, and I am really sorry. How do you come up | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
against that? What do you mean by moral panic? I think there is a | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
tendency now to suddenly, I do not disagree that rape is a horrible | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
thing, but there is a tendency to make the barriers around what | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
constitutes harassment fuzzy. We build up this idea that there is a | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
massive epidemic of male violence, but what has been defined as male | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
violence is a little funny. That is because there is an epidemic of male | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
violence. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE | :57:40. | :57:49. | |
Excuse me, everybody. Ashley. That is why I was afraid to | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
say anything. When I was a teenager, walking down the street in the days | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
of Britney Spears, with the tummy tuck, ID cards would go by and | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
whistle. One of my friends turned around and said, thank you. I said, | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
you're not supposed to like that. There is a little bit of bad faith | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
around these things. We are supposed to be really offended by male | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
attention, but actually, some women in male attention. You have changed | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
what you're talking about. Ladies and gentlemen, what I need to do, I | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
need to try and get in touch with the BBC and get an extension on this | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
debate. We have just entered some fascinating territory but we are out | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
of time. Thank you very much indeed for your contributions this morning. | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter. | :58:41. | :58:42. | |
Next week we're in Oxford, so do join us then. | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
But for now, it's goodbye from Cardiff and have a great Sunday. | :58:46. | :58:49. |