Episode 12 The Big Questions


Episode 12

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Today on The Big Questions: Fuelling the fires of terrorism and breaking

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Today we're live from St Edward's School in Oxford.

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Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

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Since Wednesday afternoon our screens, newspapers and social media

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have been dominated by just one story ? the mayhem wreaked

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by Khalid Masood on the streets of Westminster with a hired car

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50 people were injured, seven of them critically.

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Five people have died, including Masood, who was shot by the police.

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It was an appalling and devastating crime.

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But so far nobody actually knows why Masood did this.

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He didn't say anything, he didn't post any messages on social media,

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Islamic State claimed responsibility, hailing Masood

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as a soldier of Islamic State but there is no evidence he was

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He had a criminal record for assaults, he had

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served time in prison, and that may be where

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MI5 investigated him some years ago but he wasn't

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Yet everyone has assumed Masood was an Islamist

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And acres of newsprint and hours of television every day since have

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been devoted to speculating on the motives behind his actions.

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If it was attention and publicity he was after, he got it in spades.

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Back in 1985 Mrs Thatcher said, "We must try to find ways to starve

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the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity

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And she banned us from hearing the voices of the IRA

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or Sinn Fein politicians, like Gerry Adams

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Are we right to give terrorists the oxygen of publicity?

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Peter Hitchens, from the mail on Sunday, you have written a column

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today and you have said we have become a nation of weepers laying

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flowers, lowering flags, writing candles, while not thinking at all.

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What do you mean? Well, I mean that we immediately put a grid on

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something and so this is what it is. Within minutes of the outrage, the

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police were saying the act was inspired by Islamic State. They had

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no objective evidence of that at all. So far as I know they still

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don't. My own view of this is that there is an enormous number of

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possible explanations but one thing is consistently ignored. If you put

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the class of events wider than just Islamic ones, you take in and is

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bearing brave it, the school shootings, the rampage killings that

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happen frequently in United States, with no Islamic influence what at

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all, what you invariably find is that the person involved has a past

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of petty criminality involving the use almost invariably of mind

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altering drugs illegal or legal. It seems to me that this is an

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important subset of crime. I am not saying that all people who take

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drugs do this, and people like about what I say and I have got to protect

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myself. I am not saying that all people who take drugs become

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terrorists and I am not trying to excuse Islamist fundamentalists from

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evil intent where they have it, because that would also be observed.

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I am saying that if we look at something like the record of Masood,

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you see a petty criminal who began early in his life to take mind

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altering drugs. You might find a better explanation of why he did

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this, rather than clamping onto it immediately the grid of Islamic

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extremism and going into top panic mode. He converted. But what about

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the coverage itself? The coverage is invariably useful on the point of

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the media is to uncover things and huge numbers of things have been

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uncovered about Masood in the past few days which we wouldn't have

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known, all thanks to media diligence. The point is whether we

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make sense of it or not. I called Scotland Yard when they named Masood

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and I said can you give me his full criminal record? And they wouldn't

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tell me. He is dead. To this day, his full criminal record has not

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been revealed because they were not interested in that. They were

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interested in the Islamist connection rather than his record of

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crime. It may be that he is just a criminal committing a horrible

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crime. Maybe he is just a criminal committing a horrible crime. There

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was this assumption that he was somehow linked to Islamic State, and

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they clearly made a big amount of that saying he was one of their

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soldiers. Aren't we playing into their hands? The reason why people

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assume that he was doing this or was at least inspired by Islamic State

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is because it is something that Islamic State has called upon people

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around the world to do, using exactly this kind of methodology.

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Islamic State have said for some years that since various cells in

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the west have found it hard to get hold of the technology to make bombs

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in recent years, they have been disrupted from doing so, and in the

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UK it is very hard to get hold of Kalashnikov rifles for example, Isis

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have called on people who follow their message to carry out attacks

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using vehicles, very low grade attacks with nice, this sort of

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thing. That is why. It fits the pattern of Isis inspired attacks and

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we will find out some more of what motivated him in the days and weeks

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and months to come. As for the question of publicity, this is a

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huge question which we are always wondering about. This was a good

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week to wonder about terrorism and our attitude towards it in general.

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Martin McGuinness, responsible for more depth than anybody else in the

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UK in recent decades, -- more deaths, he died and he was eulogised

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in the House of Commons and 24 hours later the House of Commons was

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attacked by another kind of terrorism, but I think this is a

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very bad sign for this country, that the way in which we treat the

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terrorists of the past tells us how we will treat the terrorists of the

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future. I am glad that was such a powerful point in the studio! You

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have got your fans! This should really worry us. During the IRA

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campaign people said we would never give in to terror. All MPs and

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policemen and all the others said the same thing again this week but

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the record shows in this country that we can give into terror and we

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have. So the whole issue of media coverage, as it were, by comparison

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with that fundamental societal problem is relatively easy to solve.

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So we are playing their game? Why is it wrong, Mohammed? Let's go over

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the basic principle. Two men behind bars. One looked down and saw mud

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and the other looked up and saw stars. What you will find with

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organisations like the right wing organisations, they always pick up

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the worst, like Douglas. What we had this week was a fantastic unity of

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every community coming together and reflecting the grief of a nation and

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innocent people being murdered. We had bravery from police officers and

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we had passers-by helping out. We can focus on the bad or the good and

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the good is that if this is all they can do they are not getting very

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far, the terrorists, are they? There is something else that seems to

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match the tempo of Isis, which was the killing of Jo Cox. He actually

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killed an MP and only two MPs said it was an attack on democracy and

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nobody else echo that. Lots of people said it was an attack on

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democracy. From MPs and prominent individuals, I think mostly the

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Labour Party said so. The point here is that many individuals come out to

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do acts of terrorism, and there was not as much focus on Thomas Mair as

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there was an other terrorist attacks that have occurred in the UK. That

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is quite simple why that was, because there was an impending court

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case. In this case there is no impending court case because he was

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shot dead. There is a lot of speculation. Do you think they are

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comparable, the murder of Jo Cox and what happened the other day? No, and

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we are doing it again. We are avoiding the common denominator in

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these attacks. Of course terrorism comes from all different areas. But

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we are talking about Islamic terrorism in its own right and there

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is nothing wrong with that and we should be able to. Thomas Mair is

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Islamic? You said the comment nominator. I am talking about the

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apparently random attacks like the one we saw in London last week that

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we are putting down to a random criminal. How many random criminals

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of the same faith are we going to have before we look at the elephant

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in the room and it has been in the media all week? We will never know

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what can possibly have driven him and the only thing not a possibility

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is religious belief and the fact that a person has been involved in

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crime or taken drugs does not exclude them... Lots of people have

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said it is Islamic. They have not. The Prime Minister in the comments

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this week told is very matter that this was a perversion of great

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faith. She didn't offer scriptural backing for that and you said it

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with no analysis or investigation of Scripture. But we are looking at the

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motivation of the individuals. In the past couple of years we have had

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two events in this country, one the Leytonstone tube station stabbing,

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and the other the Russell Square stabbing in London, which were

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initially attributed to Islamic fanaticism and it was later

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perfectly clear beyond any doubt that the person involved was

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actually crazy. The Leytonstone stabber according to psychiatrists

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actually believed that Tony Blair was his guardian angel. This is not

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a person who can be taken seriously as a political act. And if you look

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also at various events attributed to Islam, particularly the Nice killer,

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he never attended the mosque, he at pork, he was an atheist according to

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his brothers, who was a boozer and a petty criminal, and the same or

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similar of the man who drove the truck in Berlin. An arsonist, petty

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criminal and a thief. If you are looking for the origins of these

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things, it doesn't mean that none of his adversaries is Islamic but some

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of them are not. Other people want to come in. Isn't it hugely

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counter-productive for what you want to say about this religion and what

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you believe this religion leads to if you all the sudden jump on single

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atrocity and say it is because of this religion? I am not suggesting

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we jump on every atrocity. I am saying we need to include religion

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in the list of possibilities of what drives these people. They are not

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all the same, but we cannot honestly discuss this without an examination

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and an analysis of the religious scriptures. I also want to know what

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these people are saying themselves. Police in Germany declare somebody

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to be mentally ill but why? What are they doing to conclude they are

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mentally ill? We have a right to know this and what these people are

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saying and doing before they carry out these acts. We haven't heard

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from Rashad Ali, but I am bearing in in mind your contributions for the

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future! This conversation demonstrates the issues. Nobody has

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a problem with discussing the issues. The issue is the editorials.

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It is the way the facts are presented by people with a

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particular agenda. They can horseshoe anything into that agenda.

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Or the speculation. We saw the media responses and we saw good responses

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from the BBC this time, measured and weighted responses to what happened.

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We have seen people speculating about who this person was. Channel 4

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News? And others released information without fact checking

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simple things. They literally rang up solicitors to verify if this

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person was around and it turned out the individual named is in prison.

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Other people contacted the family and they said he is definitely in

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prison. Not him. We had a phenomenon where people with a particular

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agenda wanted to pursue it and other people reacted on social media,

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which is way quicker than institutional medias. That is

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because it doesn't do any checking. You actually have really poor

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journalism coming out, which is what the problem is. When you remove the

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journalistic instinct, people Will Satch rack and verify things before

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putting them out, and when we did have that, it is less

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sensationalist. -- people will fact check. It is less emotionally

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driven. It is much less emotionally charged. But it was an emotionally

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charged event given the tremendous amount of tragedy that came from it

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but also the inspiring acts of humanity that we saw as well and the

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nature of the attack on democracy and then all the human stories

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emerging over the following days. It is good to know about those act of

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humanity and the human beings behind the tragedy. Those who were

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slaughtered. That is an important part, don't you think so? I actually

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agree with Rashad Ali's point of view as somebody who works in the

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media. I am evidently Muslim and I am both -- of both words. It is

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really important that you do your job as a journalist and you do it

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well and that goes back to accuracy. There was misinformation put out

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this week and the problem is that social media is so quick. So when

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certain outlets and networks have taken their time to fact check and

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get the accuracy and they have delivered to the public that news,

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that is our duty first and foremost as journalists to do a job and do it

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well. It is across all sectors, broadcast, print, digital, online.

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We abide by editorial guidelines and it is so important because when we

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don't it undermines our credibility and the work that we do. It really

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does. It makes a mockery of the job that we do. Our job is to serve the

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public and to give the correct information.

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There is a photograph of the woman with the hijab on social media

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crossing Westminster Bridge and from afar it looked like she was ignoring

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the tragedy. But if you actually looked at the close a photograph, it

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was of her face and she was extremely distraught, possibly

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falling for help, or to tell her friends and family. She has issued a

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statement. She has, and the photographer has released the other

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photographs. She had helped people. Anybody in that frame of mind at

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that position, I cannot imagine them walking away. Douglas, don't you

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think this is hugely counter-productive because then you

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are adding to the feeling in communities that they are being

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persecuted and being stigmatised and that adds to their agenda, the

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demonisation of Britain. So it is a feedback loop. I don't think we have

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got into that. Has it been happening? What are you talking

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about the EDL for? I am talking about our society as a whole. Our

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society, our media as a whole, there has not been any crazy response to

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this. The media, by and large, has done its job. It has been fairly

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restrained. I agree there is a time, definitely, for all of the

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discussions that have come up. But on this thing about motive, we

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should not attribute motives until we know. We should certainly look

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into the cases where drugs have been involved. I think it is long overdue

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to consider that. I also think we are long overdue to consider the

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role that religion can play in these attacks as well. These things are

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not mutually exclusive. Many people have carried out Islamist attacks

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and have been eating pork and drinking and so one, and they do

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what they do precisely as an act of religious purification. That is very

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common. The 9/11 hijackers went to strip bars and all that kind of

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thing. These things are not exclusive. It is a complex picture

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that leads somebody to carry out this sort of thing. We should be

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having a wide-ranging discussion on it and thankfully on this programme

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we can. Quite often in the media we do not have as wide ranging

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discussion and our politicians in particular are clearly terrified of

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aspects of this discussion. OK, we are open and honest, we have a frank

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exchange of views but what are our politicians are scared of saying?

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First of all, they are scared of seeing that actually, the amount of

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people claiming this week that we will not allow this to change our

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society, who thought it would? And thought that a guy with a knife in a

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car was going to bring down democracy? But Douglas, one of the

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things that has happened ever since the terrorist attacks during the

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Tony Blair Giroud is that the government have used attacks as a

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pretext to take away important liberties. Benjamin Franklin said

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long ago, if you sacrifice your liberty for temporary security you

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will end up having neither liberty nor security but the government has

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flagrantly ignored this. More intrusion, more snooping. That has

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changed our society. Politicians are very afraid of people discovering

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how very little power they have to prevent these attacks, less than

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they pretend they have, and they actually cannot do the things that

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they say they can. But what do you think about what we heard from so

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many people, we will not be cowed? I think it is a very good thing that

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people think and say that. But I think some of the response to this,

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this was not the Blitz. This was not a sustained night after night

:19:51.:19:55.

campaign. It was one attack, brutal, horrible, in the heart of London,

:19:56.:20:00.

but to that extent, emotionally, and I agree with what Peter says, we

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have to be careful to not overstate. But when a policeman is killed, it

:20:07.:20:13.

strikes at the heart of society. But Nicky, a lot of us here lived

:20:14.:20:16.

through the IRA bombing campaigns, and we remember piles of dead horses

:20:17.:20:21.

and dead human beings in Hyde Park and Regent Park on the same day.

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Actually, we didn't going into lockdown or half-mast or a minute's

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silence mode. We thought, OK, these people are our enemies and we will

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put up with that. Our government lets us down by giving in to the IRA

:20:35.:20:39.

bombers and giving them what they wanted, and going to the funeral of

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Martin McGuinness. They are contradicting what they're saying,

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Douglas, because on one hand you are saying we do not want to cower to

:20:48.:20:50.

the terrorists and singing their agenda and yet the first thing

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anyone uses is the word Islam. Listen, I was at Scotland Yard that

:20:55.:21:02.

date, and to qualify as an Islamist incident a pass to fit a certain

:21:03.:21:06.

criteria. It was discussed earlier on but no one mentioned why this was

:21:07.:21:11.

classed as an Islamic incident. Otherwise it would have just been a

:21:12.:21:16.

homicide. There are certain criteria. If he said the word Allah

:21:17.:21:21.

Akbar, that would clearly have been an Islamist incident. If he had had

:21:22.:21:27.

the flag of Isis, it would have clearly been so. He did not leave a

:21:28.:21:31.

note, he did not say anything. The only thing that makes this a

:21:32.:21:35.

counter-terrorism thing... He was a Muslim? Not even that. We do not

:21:36.:21:40.

know if he was a practising muscle. He was clearly not a very good

:21:41.:21:44.

Muslim. What does that mean? He was taking cocaine, he was into wife

:21:45.:21:50.

bashing, all of those things. If he was a muscle, he would not be taking

:21:51.:21:57.

cocaine Andrew King a goal. -- or taking alcohol. The reason he was

:21:58.:22:08.

attacked was because he had targeted the centre of government. You have

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given us your view, which is that it is nothing to do with Islam and

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other people will view that it is. But I am suggesting that as a

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society, we take time to work out people's motives. It is clear that

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in your case, you would not want it to be ascribed to an Islamic person,

:22:23.:22:26.

even if it turned out that he had a copy of the Koran in the car, you

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would say it had nothing to do with Islam. But there are people who

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would say that it is something to do with Islam, even if it clearly has

:22:34.:22:37.

nothing to do with Islam. But in this whole thing, my simple point is

:22:38.:22:40.

that we should be looking at motives and at the moment there are parts of

:22:41.:22:44.

the anti-terrorism and counterterrorism strategy where the

:22:45.:22:47.

government and politicians are very worried about treading on it, and we

:22:48.:22:55.

saw it in Theresa May's comments this week where she immediately

:22:56.:22:58.

ruled one aspect of this whole thing out. I want to go to the audience to

:22:59.:23:01.

get comments about the way that this has been covered. Good morning. I

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wanted to say, when it actually happened, I was almost, not in fear,

:23:10.:23:12.

but I wondered how quickly it would be that the word Islam or muscle

:23:13.:23:17.

would mentioned in the report. And it did not take long. -- Islam or

:23:18.:23:25.

Muslims. Does it give the oxygen of publicity to Islamic State, who

:23:26.:23:32.

claimed some connection? Is it counter-productive, the way the

:23:33.:23:36.

media covers it? Now we have the 24-hour media, so perhaps it is

:23:37.:23:41.

exacerbated. They do cover it, and all the papers cover it. I think

:23:42.:23:45.

with social media, they have to because it is all out there very

:23:46.:23:48.

quickly anyway. People are making comments on social media, that way.

:23:49.:23:55.

That was my thing. I was waiting for it. It was amazing how quick it

:23:56.:24:00.

happened. I don't think you can ignore it as it is such a big event

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but the fact is, I was quite pleased with how the media reacted with a

:24:05.:24:08.

positive message. They showed individual acts of bravery and

:24:09.:24:16.

things like the cartoon of Big Ben with big muscles, rather than fear

:24:17.:24:20.

and cowardice. It was a positive message, the fact that it will not

:24:21.:24:23.

change the way that we act and London and the UK will carry on. As

:24:24.:24:29.

humans, it is innate to want to seek simple answers to incredibly complex

:24:30.:24:33.

questions. I think what happens in the media a lot is that people want

:24:34.:24:36.

to jump on one thing because that makes it easy to understand. If we

:24:37.:24:42.

as a media and as society looked on things as a mental health issue,

:24:43.:24:46.

mental health services are pulling in this country and it is difficult

:24:47.:24:50.

for people to access those services. That is somewhere where we need to

:24:51.:24:54.

look to make change in society and make things better. Abdulla, what

:24:55.:25:04.

did come out of this and it was a good thing to focus minds is that 13

:25:05.:25:08.

terrorist plots, serious plots have been thwarted since the killing of

:25:09.:25:15.

Lee Rigby. I'm sure you want to pay tribute to our intelligence

:25:16.:25:17.

services. Yes, but today's discussion is about the press and

:25:18.:25:20.

the media. One of the problems is these regulation and the constant

:25:21.:25:30.

reiteration that goes beyond how the IRA attacks were covered. I must

:25:31.:25:33.

remind everyone that the IRA killed more British people every year

:25:34.:25:37.

during the troubles than any Al-Qaeda or Islamic State inspired

:25:38.:25:43.

attacks. What you mean by quote unquote? They are Islamic State

:25:44.:25:53.

inspired. I mean to say ascribed to Muslim attacks. The ones that claim

:25:54.:25:58.

to be. This is the issue, because what is the objective of terrorists?

:25:59.:26:04.

The objective is not necessarily to kill all infidels. We do not see

:26:05.:26:09.

terrorism in South America or South Africa or Switzerland or the

:26:10.:26:13.

Republic of Ireland but we do see a desire to scare the British public

:26:14.:26:17.

and the French public and the American public to secure political

:26:18.:26:22.

goals. Al-Qaeda and Isis do not have the power to scare people in John

:26:23.:26:25.

O'Groats and Lands End, but the media, which reiterates these

:26:26.:26:31.

attacks and speculate... Were you not scared returning to the question

:26:32.:26:37.

I asked, by the fact that there have been 13 terrorist plots thwarted

:26:38.:26:45.

since 2013? And also thousands of people on the intelligence services

:26:46.:26:48.

watchlist up and down the country, in a publishing of 60 million that

:26:49.:26:51.

is not a lot but it is an awful lot of people who are inspired by this.

:26:52.:26:55.

Do you want to come back to what he is saying? I am happy that terror

:26:56.:26:59.

attacks have been prevented and I hope that we see no terror attacks

:27:00.:27:05.

from any group ever again, but today's discussion is really about

:27:06.:27:10.

whether terror attacks, or terrorists, should be given the

:27:11.:27:14.

oxygen of publicity. Publicity or infamy is only a form of celebrity

:27:15.:27:17.

and we do not want to give these terror attacks the celebrity that

:27:18.:27:24.

they should not enjoy. I want to speak in a minute about the IRA and

:27:25.:27:28.

your coverage of that, and the coverage of IRA atrocities in the

:27:29.:27:33.

past. What is the alternative to the oxygen of publicity? Are we expected

:27:34.:27:37.

to ignore these things altogether? What is it we are actually looking

:27:38.:27:41.

for here? I don't think we are giving it the correct coverage at

:27:42.:27:45.

all. It has been described as a single terror act in London, but how

:27:46.:27:49.

many attacks have been across Europe in the last couple of years? And

:27:50.:27:52.

what have they got in, Can we not use our common-sense

:27:53.:27:57.

and sit down and look at the religion that is possibly driving

:27:58.:28:06.

this. When the IRA were doing what they did, did everyone scramble to

:28:07.:28:10.

find an excuse? They were criminals, they were involved in drug abuse,

:28:11.:28:15.

they were mentally ill, or to the accepted they were Irish Republicans

:28:16.:28:17.

with an Irish Republican aim? If there is no problem with Islamic

:28:18.:28:23.

scripture inspiring bits, then let's look at it. Why are we not looking

:28:24.:28:29.

at it? If it is not Islamic structure, then we have no problem.

:28:30.:28:34.

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Surely the point is that you establish the

:28:35.:28:38.

facts, you get the facts right, you infer from the facts what may have

:28:39.:28:41.

happened and then you report what did happen. That is what I am asking

:28:42.:28:45.

for but I do not think that is happening. You are saying we should

:28:46.:28:50.

start with conclusions. I am not. I am saying we want the truth. You are

:28:51.:28:56.

making assumptions. I want religious fervour to be included in the list

:28:57.:28:59.

of reasons that made this man who he was. Peter, and a second. You were

:29:00.:29:06.

looking like you were not agreeing with that. I agreed to parts but not

:29:07.:29:12.

all of that. When you speak about journalism and accuracy, of course.

:29:13.:29:15.

We all want the truth. It is not just you, it is me. So let me tell

:29:16.:29:24.

you for myself, and I can speak perhaps on behalf of 99% of the

:29:25.:29:27.

British Mars in public, that generally none of us know the motive

:29:28.:29:32.

is behind people who carry out these acts. I myself are very much part of

:29:33.:29:36.

the society, I am born and raised a Londoner and I am and observant

:29:37.:29:43.

Muslim. You do not see somebody like me carrying out these acts inspired

:29:44.:29:49.

by my faith. And people are analysing scripture. It is not the

:29:50.:29:53.

crown of the biblical scripture, you seem to be quite hung up on the fact

:29:54.:29:57.

that this is a Koranic scriptural point. Scripture is open to

:29:58.:30:06.

interpretation. If they are not quoting scripture, why are we

:30:07.:30:09.

bringing scripture into this? Because a lot of them caught the

:30:10.:30:14.

verses that say find the infidels, root them out and kill them. Douglas

:30:15.:30:22.

wanted to come in. This is a great example of it right here. Saba

:30:23.:30:30.

thinks that none of the terrorists ever caught the Koran. Let me give

:30:31.:30:33.

you an example, the killers of Lee Rigby. Michael Adebolajo, on his

:30:34.:30:38.

body, when the police arrested him, he had a note in his pocket, to his

:30:39.:30:42.

young daughter, explaining why he did what he did. You can see a

:30:43.:30:47.

facsimile on the BBC website and there are footnotes of Koranic

:30:48.:30:51.

verses that he thinks justify his actions. That is the beginning...

:30:52.:30:56.

Let me finish. Everyone is talking... Let me just finished my

:30:57.:31:03.

point. That would seem to be there for a very clear occasion, never

:31:04.:31:06.

mind the thousands of others we could list, a very clear occasion in

:31:07.:31:10.

this country where one of our soldiers was murdered on our streets

:31:11.:31:13.

where clearly scripture had something to do with that. The

:31:14.:31:16.

problem that a lot of us have is that we are willing to discuss the

:31:17.:31:20.

drugs bits, we are willing to discuss the foreign policy bit and

:31:21.:31:24.

all this, but why are you not willing to concede that there is a

:31:25.:31:29.

religious element sometimes? Listen, here is my plan. I will speak to

:31:30.:31:35.

Peter in a minute but we will take it to what happened in Ireland over

:31:36.:31:40.

the troubles. I don't want to make it theological.

:31:41.:31:45.

It is not theological. The one point that we haven't mentioned which is

:31:46.:31:51.

crucial to all of this is the radicalisation of people in prisons.

:31:52.:31:55.

I have seen people that don't practice coming out of prison as

:31:56.:32:00.

red-hot radicals. I am sure you have seen people coming out of prison as

:32:01.:32:03.

convert and you celebrate their conversion as well. It can go either

:32:04.:32:08.

way. The point is what is happening? We have put them into a state

:32:09.:32:12.

institution that should be a safe zone. And they are coming out as

:32:13.:32:18.

Isis recruits. Some have got to be separated from the other prisoners

:32:19.:32:26.

so the toxicity doesn't spread. But hang on. We have not heard from

:32:27.:32:29.

Peter Bush. Good morning to you. Welcome! What do you think, Peter,

:32:30.:32:37.

of the coverage of this? The department of war studies at King's

:32:38.:32:40.

College London. Is it important over the days to hear the human stories,

:32:41.:32:47.

the tragedies and the heroism, which is what unfolded in newspapers apart

:32:48.:32:53.

from the analysis? Is it right, the way this has been covered? That part

:32:54.:32:56.

was certainly right, to tell both sides of the story and to get as

:32:57.:33:00.

wide a view as possible, but where you have got to be careful, I think,

:33:01.:33:04.

and we have listened to this discussion here so far, is when you

:33:05.:33:09.

think about oxygen and publicity, part and parcel of the idea of

:33:10.:33:12.

terrorism and what is really behind it is attention seeking. To affect

:33:13.:33:19.

more people with the act of violence and the people who were actually

:33:20.:33:27.

there -- than the people who actually there in that part of

:33:28.:33:32.

London. And when you talk about media coverage and the way you cover

:33:33.:33:35.

it, you have got to be careful not to follow some kind of script about

:33:36.:33:41.

the act of violence itself. It is not just the media action but the

:33:42.:33:44.

people who give voice in the media, who talk and want to talk in the

:33:45.:33:49.

media, be that from a political point of view or the politicians in

:33:50.:33:55.

general. For example, clearly something that many people would

:33:56.:34:03.

call a symbolic place was attacked. But we decide whether this place is

:34:04.:34:08.

symbolic. Parliament. Do we say this was an act of terrorism against

:34:09.:34:13.

democracy? That is our decision. Our reaction is very important in this

:34:14.:34:17.

case. It could have happened in Epping Forest or something. Would we

:34:18.:34:21.

have reacted the same way? This is the choice. We have got to step

:34:22.:34:30.

back, I think, and think about it and makes the decision whether we

:34:31.:34:34.

want to follow the certain script that this person wants us to follow.

:34:35.:34:41.

We talk about an attack on us all and so on and so forth. Or do we try

:34:42.:34:47.

to stick to the facts and the simple story and try to unravel what is

:34:48.:34:52.

behind it and then draw conclusions? Social media has changed the game.

:34:53.:34:56.

Peter, and more contributions from the audience in just a second,

:34:57.:35:01.

please. Social media has changed the game. But in Northern Ireland, I

:35:02.:35:05.

remember, and I have spoken to you about this before. You followed

:35:06.:35:09.

Gerry Adams around America and at every press conference that Gerry

:35:10.:35:12.

Adams gave you were his worst nightmare. There was Peter Hitchens

:35:13.:35:18.

at the back! You could see Mr Adams thinking, oh gosh! The thing is that

:35:19.:35:26.

we had that period when Mrs Thatcher said do not give them the oxygen of

:35:27.:35:31.

publicity and we had the ludicrous situation when actors were dubbing

:35:32.:35:38.

the voices of Mr Adams and Martin McGuinness, occasionally subverted

:35:39.:35:46.

by leaving in coughing that belonged to Mr Adams. It was a good job for

:35:47.:35:51.

the actors but it was ludicrous. It was futile and it illustrates the

:35:52.:35:55.

great difficulty of what wonders about this. One of the French

:35:56.:36:00.

newspapers, Le Monde, tried to stop using the names of the perpetrators

:36:01.:36:03.

and was turned on by the rest of the French media for failing to take the

:36:04.:36:07.

thing seriously. We all have a difficulty. We can't ignore this

:36:08.:36:12.

stuff. We have got to give it a lot of coverage because it is a big

:36:13.:36:15.

event but the question is how we cover it and whether we do so

:36:16.:36:21.

intelligently. And anything is a discussion -- another thing is a

:36:22.:36:24.

discussion of what is in the minds of other people. I was an extremist,

:36:25.:36:30.

Trotskyist, full of utopian garbage. I didn't kill anybody. The gap

:36:31.:36:35.

between being a fanatic and being a killer is considerable and what we

:36:36.:36:40.

are not looking at is this. When you look at Martin McGuinness, what he

:36:41.:36:45.

did personally, we don't know, but he certainly ordered large numbers

:36:46.:36:48.

of deaths. What happens to someone to make him do that? The roots of

:36:49.:36:53.

fanaticism are not just a matter of belief, they are matter of believing

:36:54.:36:57.

so strongly that what you think is right that you kill or in some cases

:36:58.:37:01.

being so disinherited by the collapse of your reason that he will

:37:02.:37:06.

do very violent things. The difficulty is in telling which is

:37:07.:37:11.

which. There is no question that Islamic fanaticism has been involved

:37:12.:37:18.

in a lot of terrorist attacks, 7/7 and 9/11, beyond any doubt, but it

:37:19.:37:21.

doesn't mean that all events have got to be fitted into that. Do you

:37:22.:37:26.

celebrate the peacemaker, Martin McGuinness? I celebrate that he

:37:27.:37:30.

changed and I don't think the British authorities gave in to the

:37:31.:37:33.

IRA. I think the IRA gave into the of law. Who dismantled their

:37:34.:37:41.

intelligent system? Who dismantled the RUC? Is prisoners were released?

:37:42.:37:52.

-- whose prisoners were released? The keyword here is proportion. We

:37:53.:37:56.

have got to report what goes on with the IRA and with Masood but we don't

:37:57.:38:00.

have to overindulge and yes it has been astonishing that there have

:38:01.:38:08.

been many more deaths than the four people on Westminster Bridge, even

:38:09.:38:12.

though that is horrifying. But it strikes that our hearts, doesn't it?

:38:13.:38:16.

Of course. But we don't need the back story of every single witness

:38:17.:38:21.

and have ten pages four days per week. One of the problems is the

:38:22.:38:25.

media itself. We used to have half an hour on the Six O'Clock News and

:38:26.:38:30.

Ten O'Clock News and now the media needs the terrorists feed into their

:38:31.:38:33.

news. There is some kind of unhealthy relationship between those

:38:34.:38:40.

who create the news and the media who actually need it to keep it

:38:41.:38:46.

going 24 hours. We can look at the media as the media of what people

:38:47.:38:50.

want. The truth is why does the media focus on certain stories for

:38:51.:38:54.

long periods of time? Because that is the British public is in. And

:38:55.:39:00.

partly it does shape attitudes but it is also a reflection of what is

:39:01.:39:05.

happening. We need explanations, we need somebody to blame. Yes, but we

:39:06.:39:11.

were having this conversation earlier. 200 people were killed in

:39:12.:39:18.

Mosul as the result of an attack and the US have said it was them but it

:39:19.:39:22.

did not have the same coverage and that is because there is not the

:39:23.:39:27.

same appetite for that coverage. It is still there for people who want

:39:28.:39:32.

to look at it. So it is a commercial consideration? Yes. Obviously 24

:39:33.:39:38.

hour news pushes this and there is a lot of speculation because of it.

:39:39.:39:42.

There are things about that which are unhealthy but it is nothing like

:39:43.:39:49.

as unhealthy as, looking back to the past and our attitude to terrorist

:39:50.:39:54.

activities in the past and present, when the IRA killed many soldiers,

:39:55.:40:01.

what did we end up doing? We put the people who orchestrated that

:40:02.:40:03.

campaign at the heart of government and that is much sicker than the

:40:04.:40:07.

idea that anybody 20 years from now associated with ragged back row

:40:08.:40:11.

could be put into power, which is much more of a societal sickness

:40:12.:40:20.

than 24 hour news. -- people associated with Masood could be put

:40:21.:40:27.

into power. Has this debate been self-defeating because it has given

:40:28.:40:31.

unnecessary oxygen to those people who would destroy us or has it been

:40:32.:40:36.

responsible and the right way to cover? I think overall it has been

:40:37.:40:40.

quite responsible however there have been some tabloids and the news that

:40:41.:40:48.

has gone out, as we are all aware, that has been misinformation. Things

:40:49.:40:53.

like Birmingham being the jihadist capital of England, that is not

:40:54.:40:58.

helpful, unless it is backed up by evidence. It is. It is not the

:40:59.:41:03.

capital, it is the second. London is the capital of terrorism in the UK

:41:04.:41:08.

and Birmingham is second. Debatable. No, if you look at the statistics

:41:09.:41:11.

released earlier this month, it proves that. I have got to come in

:41:12.:41:16.

on confession which we are going to discuss in a moment. If anyone has

:41:17.:41:20.

got anything to confess, that is coming up. Thank you.

:41:21.:41:25.

You can join in all this morning's debates by logging

:41:26.:41:27.

on to bbc.co.uk/TheBigQuestions and following the link

:41:28.:41:29.

Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.

:41:30.:41:32.

Tell us what you think about our last big question too.

:41:33.:41:34.

Should the secrecy of the confessional be sacrosanct?

:41:35.:41:36.

And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you

:41:37.:41:40.

We're in Brighton next week and Cambridge on April 9th.

:41:41.:41:44.

Then, after a break for Easter and the London Marathon,

:41:45.:41:46.

we're back from York on May 30th for two shows, the usual live

:41:47.:41:49.

programme in the morning, plus we're recording a special

:41:50.:41:51.

So do email the audiencetbq address if you fancy taking part

:41:52.:41:59.

Confession is said to be good for the soul.

:42:00.:42:06.

Telling God your sins, perhaps through the medium of a priest,

:42:07.:42:08.

expressing contrition, and making amends for them

:42:09.:42:11.

is an essential part of faith and is as old as the Bible.

:42:12.:42:15.

And the same idea underlies modern psychotherapy too.

:42:16.:42:18.

If you can't come to terms with what you have done,

:42:19.:42:21.

you can never move on, or lighten the burden of your past.

:42:22.:42:24.

But where does this leave your confessor, the person you have

:42:25.:42:27.

If he's a Catholic priest, the answer is clear.

:42:28.:42:33.

He can never tell anyone - not his bishop, not the local

:42:34.:42:36.

police, not the partner you may have betrayed -

:42:37.:42:38.

But should all confessors follow the same rules?

:42:39.:42:45.

Are there times when the enormity of what they have been told requires

:42:46.:42:48.

disclosure, perhaps to a potential victim or to the police?

:42:49.:42:51.

Should the secrecy of the confessional be sacrosanct?

:42:52.:42:56.

Rabbi Romain, you have written a very interesting book on this and I

:42:57.:43:05.

will come to you in a second, and I want your response to Doctor Peter

:43:06.:43:15.

Petkoff, from Regent's Park College. If over the years some priests had

:43:16.:43:17.

taken information from the confessional and gone to the police,

:43:18.:43:22.

think of the misery that people would not have had to go through.

:43:23.:43:26.

Think of the torture that people who were abused would not have had to

:43:27.:43:32.

live with all their lives. Think of all the people who would not have

:43:33.:43:37.

been killed by terrorism. To keep it in the confessional is surely, and

:43:38.:43:49.

unarguably wrong. Of course you can make this argument using a

:43:50.:43:58.

particular moral paradigms. If our moral requirement is the pursuit of

:43:59.:44:02.

truth and if that requires breaking a particular confidentiality

:44:03.:44:04.

agreement we therefore have got to break it, and this has been

:44:05.:44:11.

historically the position of utilitarians who have argued that a

:44:12.:44:14.

breach of confidence in certain situations should be allowed. It

:44:15.:44:18.

into the morality pretty simple? But there is the other argument that we

:44:19.:44:24.

maintain confidentiality because that is what gentlemen do. If we

:44:25.:44:27.

have promised to keep a secret, we keep it. But can the law in

:44:28.:44:36.

particular create a balance, not only in relation to confessionals,

:44:37.:44:42.

but in relation to a number of other things? If somebody comes to a

:44:43.:44:45.

priest and says I have got a sexual interest in children and I am acting

:44:46.:44:49.

upon it, I want your help on this, would you go to the police? I am not

:44:50.:44:57.

a priest. Should the police be told by the priest? If he had a Catholic

:44:58.:45:03.

priest and he has the choice between losing his priesthood and being as

:45:04.:45:10.

communicated for breaking a specific ecclesiastical law or to save a

:45:11.:45:14.

child, it is a personal choice he has, for me. It is not an

:45:15.:45:19.

institutional choice. With that be a difficult choice? I am quite

:45:20.:45:24.

appalled that it is even a choice in the first place. Obviously

:45:25.:45:26.

confession is about to be handled with care and sensitivity but

:45:27.:45:30.

actually if somebody is going to harm others or themselves then there

:45:31.:45:33.

is no religious doubt whatsoever that you do have to break

:45:34.:45:39.

confidentiality. Is a but those are made. You have to

:45:40.:45:54.

put human needs in front of rituals. There is a big difference between

:45:55.:45:59.

praying away a missed confession, and sins against human beings. They

:46:00.:46:04.

cannot be prayed away. You have to rectify them. If someone came to me

:46:05.:46:07.

as a rabbi and said I am a paedophile and I cannot control

:46:08.:46:10.

myself, I would say, you have to hand yourself then or I will come

:46:11.:46:14.

with you, or if you do not, then I will go on to the police. Frankly, I

:46:15.:46:19.

could not look the mother in the eye of his future victim and say, I knew

:46:20.:46:23.

what was going to happen but I did not tell you. APPLAUSE. Of course

:46:24.:46:31.

we're talking about different because what you are referring to is

:46:32.:46:37.

a confidential pastoral advice that you may giving private. What are you

:46:38.:46:43.

talking about? As far as conversion is concerned, in specific context,

:46:44.:46:49.

because not all Christian churches take the same view on confession,

:46:50.:46:55.

there are different degrees in which that is taken seriously. If we are

:46:56.:47:00.

talking about the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church is, confession

:47:01.:47:07.

is central to the Christian identity. It is sacrosanct? Changing

:47:08.:47:16.

it, removing it requires such complex institutional and

:47:17.:47:19.

theological change that it would prevent Christians from being able

:47:20.:47:23.

to fully... I think lives come before institutional change.

:47:24.:47:30.

Sometimes religious leaders have to have the courage to change, when the

:47:31.:47:36.

rules of the past are no longer relevant. Let me bring Chris in. Is

:47:37.:47:44.

it sacrosanct, confession, what goes on in there? For the catholic church

:47:45.:47:50.

is because forgiveness depends on the intermediate and nature of the

:47:51.:47:53.

priest. But we discussed this at the General Synod a few years ago in the

:47:54.:47:56.

light of the issue of paedophilia. The issue is this confession

:47:57.:48:03.

backward looking. Confession is about people with troubled souls,

:48:04.:48:07.

concerned about things, they go to confession to unburden themselves

:48:08.:48:10.

and talk about it and to seek forgiveness. It seems to me that

:48:11.:48:15.

unless they could go to somebody with whom they have absolute

:48:16.:48:20.

confidence will not disclose it, to whom else so what these people go?

:48:21.:48:24.

They will go to nobody. It seems to me that the position the priest is

:48:25.:48:27.

put in is to withhold forgiveness and absolution unless that person

:48:28.:48:34.

then goes, and he says to them, as the rabbi said, you need to go and

:48:35.:48:38.

tell this to the police. And what if he says I am not going to? You have

:48:39.:48:44.

to remain confidential because... I am going to do it again, that has to

:48:45.:48:49.

remain confidential? That is forward-looking, and then you work

:48:50.:48:52.

with them in terms of counselling and other things, but you do not

:48:53.:48:57.

disclose. I cannot stop my urges and I will do this again. Unquote no

:48:58.:49:09.

disclosure? No disclosure. I find that a pretty appalling attitude. I

:49:10.:49:11.

agree that if children are going to be harmed and we can do something

:49:12.:49:22.

about that, then we should act. What is going on here, we will expect

:49:23.:49:25.

doctors and councillors to break confidential to the agreements is

:49:26.:49:30.

there is a good reason, and we legally require it. But strangely,

:49:31.:49:37.

it is one law, it would appear, for those who are operating in the

:49:38.:49:40.

secular sphere, and then there is another law, with other requirements

:49:41.:49:45.

placed on those who are working within the religious sphere. As a

:49:46.:49:48.

political secularist, my feeling is that the should be a level playing

:49:49.:49:51.

field, the should not be one law for the religious and another for the

:49:52.:49:56.

nonreligious. What I think is important is that when you were

:49:57.:50:00.

talking about the IRA, that was an hero of the past. There is no

:50:01.:50:05.

updated legislation. For instance, whether it is a priest, a rabbi or

:50:06.:50:10.

an imam, if a young man comes up and says, I am off to Syria or I am off

:50:11.:50:13.

to drive around Westminster Bridge and I'm going to knock over a load

:50:14.:50:17.

of people, the counterterrorism act requires that person discloses that

:50:18.:50:20.

information otherwise they will be arrested. I think things have been

:50:21.:50:26.

upgraded a little bit. What is the legal situation, Chris? This has

:50:27.:50:29.

been discussed for hundreds of years, particularly over the issue

:50:30.:50:32.

of treason. It came up over the gunpowder plot and things like that.

:50:33.:50:38.

It has always been the case that the law of the church has been regarded

:50:39.:50:44.

as foundational in this matter, except when a matter comes into the

:50:45.:50:49.

matter of criminal. If criminal law is involved, there are other issues.

:50:50.:50:54.

I understand that. But my understanding is that unless they go

:50:55.:50:59.

to somebody who they know will not confide, they will not confide in

:51:00.:51:03.

anybody. -- the matter of criminal law. We're looking at a very extreme

:51:04.:51:07.

case. It is not really going to happen that somebody says, I'm going

:51:08.:51:11.

to do this and I'm going to confess to a priest. Somebody confesses to

:51:12.:51:15.

the priest because they are troubled by something and if they know that

:51:16.:51:22.

the priest might share it to... But we know that the child abuse

:51:23.:51:26.

cover-up happened for decades in the church. For decades. That

:51:27.:51:31.

confessional conversation will, I'm sure, have happened on very many

:51:32.:51:37.

occasions. Let me put it to you, Peter, because you mentioned the IRA

:51:38.:51:42.

earlier on, what is in the confessional and IRA bomber were to

:51:43.:51:49.

have said, and we know about the label on the proverb priests, was to

:51:50.:51:52.

have said in the confessional to his priest, I'm going to carry out this

:51:53.:51:56.

atrocity, and I hope my Lord and Father forgives me, Hail Mary,

:51:57.:52:00.

whatever, should that priest had gone to the police? I am a

:52:01.:52:05.

Protestant and I have no particular interest in this. I do not subscribe

:52:06.:52:09.

to the sacrament of confession. Looking at the argument, we seem to

:52:10.:52:12.

be approaching it as some people approach torture, by producing an

:52:13.:52:19.

example which is not realistic. I am utterly and completely opposed to

:52:20.:52:23.

torture. I do not believe it is sanctioned under any circumstances.

:52:24.:52:27.

The reply is always, what if there is a ticking time bomb. But there

:52:28.:52:32.

has never been such an episode. I do not believe, actually, that IRA

:52:33.:52:35.

terrorists went and told priests that they were going to kill people.

:52:36.:52:39.

I also believe that if someone takes the sacrament of confession

:52:40.:52:42.

seriously, you will also believe that you will burn in hell if you

:52:43.:52:45.

abuse a child. It is unlikely that such a person is going to... Stop

:52:46.:52:52.

right there. The whole thing is a hypothesis, designed to attack a

:52:53.:52:57.

particular church. But terrorists told the police after they committed

:52:58.:53:00.

the authority, we know that. Should the police have then gone... So we

:53:01.:53:08.

have to formulate that. But today, they would be arrested. I'm not here

:53:09.:53:12.

to defend the Roman Catholic Church to which I do not belong. Nor am I

:53:13.:53:16.

particularly interested in the sacrament of confession. What I'm

:53:17.:53:19.

saying is that what is being advanced here is an extreme and

:53:20.:53:24.

unlikely hardcase hypothesis to attack, if I can just finish, to

:53:25.:53:28.

attack the practices of a particular church. And I do not find it

:53:29.:53:32.

particularly convincing. Let me give you a simple everyday case that is

:53:33.:53:35.

less extreme. One of my congregants came home and found her husband in

:53:36.:53:40.

bed with his secretary. Confidentially, she told me she was

:53:41.:53:44.

delighted and the reason was because actually he had been abusing her for

:53:45.:53:48.

years and years. She had never had the courage to say anything and she

:53:49.:53:51.

did not want to go public and now she had a legitimate reason, a

:53:52.:53:54.

respectable reason for the divorce. The problem started three years

:53:55.:53:58.

later when he actually went out with somebody else, and got engaged.

:53:59.:54:02.

Confidentially, I knew that he was an abuser. This second potential

:54:03.:54:06.

wife was a very feisty lady and I thought she could look after herself

:54:07.:54:10.

but on the other hand, a person who had abused once could be abused

:54:11.:54:17.

again. Should I break the confidence and tell the fiance that he was

:54:18.:54:21.

actually a wife beater? In the end I decided that she had a right to that

:54:22.:54:25.

information so I broke confidence and I did tell the fiance. There was

:54:26.:54:29.

an example where I think that actually you have to put the

:54:30.:54:32.

interests of other people first. Did she marry him? In the end, a few

:54:33.:54:38.

weeks later they split up. Which is a very good example but it is

:54:39.:54:43.

actually a very different thing. You wanted an everyday example and I

:54:44.:54:47.

gave it to you. The gentleman at the back, good morning and welcome. When

:54:48.:54:52.

you look at the Scriptures if you look at Romans 13 in the Bible, the

:54:53.:55:00.

King James, it says you must submit yourself to society. In Acts five it

:55:01.:55:02.

tells you quite specifically that you have to follow the law of the

:55:03.:55:07.

land. Where you see criminality or someone is doing something wrong,

:55:08.:55:10.

you have to submit to that biblically. Really, I see it is

:55:11.:55:16.

quite benign. When you are looking at the case of terrorism or whatever

:55:17.:55:19.

it is, if someone is committing a crime you have a duty of care to

:55:20.:55:25.

your other fellow human beings to react in the correct manner. I think

:55:26.:55:34.

the level of criminality here is important. Where it is a personal

:55:35.:55:38.

thing, as we saw with the rabbi, that can be quite a constructive

:55:39.:55:42.

thing, but when we come to the point that you are breaking the law, I

:55:43.:55:46.

think that obviously you have a duty to report that. Actually, there are

:55:47.:55:50.

laws that say, for example, you could be perverting the course of

:55:51.:55:53.

justice, you could be an accomplice to a crime if you do not report it.

:55:54.:55:57.

There are aspects of terror legislation where again if you do

:55:58.:56:01.

not report it, you are part of the problem. At that stage, everybody, I

:56:02.:56:07.

think, has a duty to report it. Looking at a person who is possibly

:56:08.:56:11.

giving this confession, you actually are helping them by doing that. I

:56:12.:56:15.

think that is a very important stage. APPLAUSE.

:56:16.:56:25.

All religious figures have a duty to uphold the sanctity of human life.

:56:26.:56:31.

By withholding that information, they are not doing what they are

:56:32.:56:35.

there to do. And if they are putting their own faith before the sanctity

:56:36.:56:41.

of human life, that is selfish. It is a fascinating discussion. You

:56:42.:56:45.

have put a hard case of a priest in a confessional knowing about a

:56:46.:56:48.

paedophile. Two widen that out, consider the number of people in our

:56:49.:56:53.

society who do not, who have not sworn they will keep secrets but

:56:54.:56:58.

have done. For personal reasons, community or social reasons, look at

:56:59.:57:01.

the number of people who must've known about Jamie Savile's abuse,

:57:02.:57:05.

for example. They kept silence, not because they were sworn to but

:57:06.:57:10.

because they felt the pressure. It is quite easy to think of this as

:57:11.:57:14.

the hardest problem for a catholic priest but as a society, a lot of

:57:15.:57:18.

people in our society cover up things, whilst moralising about

:57:19.:57:21.

things like catholic priests. And as a practising Catholic, one wonders

:57:22.:57:26.

what might be revealed in the confessional when he was in church.

:57:27.:57:31.

Any other comments? At the back, the lady there. I am sure that hiding

:57:32.:57:37.

things makes you an accomplice and makes you a criminal as well. It is

:57:38.:57:42.

a very serious issue when it comes to child abuse and stuff like that.

:57:43.:57:46.

If I could have been saved, as a sufferer myself, I would have loved

:57:47.:57:50.

it. I was formally Hindu and I am not religious any more for the same

:57:51.:57:54.

reason. People hide things when the moral of probation is that you are

:57:55.:57:59.

supposed to save the child, save people who are dying, because the

:58:00.:58:06.

impact is way more massive than you may be burning in hell after you are

:58:07.:58:10.

dead. It is ridiculous, you are ruining people's lives and they will

:58:11.:58:14.

have to live afterwards. It is not acceptable. We are running out of

:58:15.:58:18.

time, Chris. The issue here is that if you remove that, there is nobody

:58:19.:58:22.

that people who are troubled by these things can go to. Nobody. What

:58:23.:58:27.

sort of society is that? We are out of time. Thank you all very much

:58:28.:58:29.

indeed. Thank you. APPLAUSE. . As always, the debate will continue

:58:30.:58:38.

online and on Twitter. Next week we're in Brighton,

:58:39.:58:40.

so do join us then. But for now it's goodbye from Oxford

:58:41.:58:43.

and have a great Sunday. I've not given myself that time

:58:44.:59:08.

to sit down

:59:09.:59:11.

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