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Today on The Big Questions: Fuelling the fires of terrorism and breaking | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
Today we're live from St Edward's School in Oxford. | :00:08. | :00:31. | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | :00:32. | :00:40. | |
Since Wednesday afternoon our screens, newspapers and social media | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
have been dominated by just one story ? the mayhem wreaked | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
by Khalid Masood on the streets of Westminster with a hired car | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
50 people were injured, seven of them critically. | :00:52. | :00:59. | |
Five people have died, including Masood, who was shot by the police. | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
It was an appalling and devastating crime. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
But so far nobody actually knows why Masood did this. | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
He didn't say anything, he didn't post any messages on social media, | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
Islamic State claimed responsibility, hailing Masood | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
as a soldier of Islamic State but there is no evidence he was | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
He had a criminal record for assaults, he had | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
served time in prison, and that may be where | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
MI5 investigated him some years ago but he wasn't | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
Yet everyone has assumed Masood was an Islamist | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
And acres of newsprint and hours of television every day since have | :01:40. | :01:47. | |
been devoted to speculating on the motives behind his actions. | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
If it was attention and publicity he was after, he got it in spades. | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
Back in 1985 Mrs Thatcher said, "We must try to find ways to starve | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
And she banned us from hearing the voices of the IRA | :02:05. | :02:12. | |
or Sinn Fein politicians, like Gerry Adams | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
Are we right to give terrorists the oxygen of publicity? | :02:15. | :02:23. | |
Peter Hitchens, from the mail on Sunday, you have written a column | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
today and you have said we have become a nation of weepers laying | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
flowers, lowering flags, writing candles, while not thinking at all. | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
What do you mean? Well, I mean that we immediately put a grid on | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
something and so this is what it is. Within minutes of the outrage, the | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
police were saying the act was inspired by Islamic State. They had | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
no objective evidence of that at all. So far as I know they still | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
don't. My own view of this is that there is an enormous number of | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
possible explanations but one thing is consistently ignored. If you put | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
the class of events wider than just Islamic ones, you take in and is | :03:10. | :03:18. | |
bearing brave it, the school shootings, the rampage killings that | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
happen frequently in United States, with no Islamic influence what at | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
all, what you invariably find is that the person involved has a past | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
of petty criminality involving the use almost invariably of mind | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
altering drugs illegal or legal. It seems to me that this is an | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
important subset of crime. I am not saying that all people who take | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
drugs do this, and people like about what I say and I have got to protect | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
myself. I am not saying that all people who take drugs become | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
terrorists and I am not trying to excuse Islamist fundamentalists from | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
evil intent where they have it, because that would also be observed. | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
I am saying that if we look at something like the record of Masood, | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
you see a petty criminal who began early in his life to take mind | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
altering drugs. You might find a better explanation of why he did | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
this, rather than clamping onto it immediately the grid of Islamic | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
extremism and going into top panic mode. He converted. But what about | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
the coverage itself? The coverage is invariably useful on the point of | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
the media is to uncover things and huge numbers of things have been | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
uncovered about Masood in the past few days which we wouldn't have | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
known, all thanks to media diligence. The point is whether we | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
make sense of it or not. I called Scotland Yard when they named Masood | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
and I said can you give me his full criminal record? And they wouldn't | :04:43. | :04:51. | |
tell me. He is dead. To this day, his full criminal record has not | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
been revealed because they were not interested in that. They were | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
interested in the Islamist connection rather than his record of | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
crime. It may be that he is just a criminal committing a horrible | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
crime. Maybe he is just a criminal committing a horrible crime. There | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
was this assumption that he was somehow linked to Islamic State, and | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
they clearly made a big amount of that saying he was one of their | :05:16. | :05:17. | |
soldiers. Aren't we playing into their hands? The reason why people | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
assume that he was doing this or was at least inspired by Islamic State | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
is because it is something that Islamic State has called upon people | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
around the world to do, using exactly this kind of methodology. | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
Islamic State have said for some years that since various cells in | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
the west have found it hard to get hold of the technology to make bombs | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
in recent years, they have been disrupted from doing so, and in the | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
UK it is very hard to get hold of Kalashnikov rifles for example, Isis | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
have called on people who follow their message to carry out attacks | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
using vehicles, very low grade attacks with nice, this sort of | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
thing. That is why. It fits the pattern of Isis inspired attacks and | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
we will find out some more of what motivated him in the days and weeks | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
and months to come. As for the question of publicity, this is a | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
huge question which we are always wondering about. This was a good | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
week to wonder about terrorism and our attitude towards it in general. | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
Martin McGuinness, responsible for more depth than anybody else in the | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
UK in recent decades, -- more deaths, he died and he was eulogised | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
in the House of Commons and 24 hours later the House of Commons was | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
attacked by another kind of terrorism, but I think this is a | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
very bad sign for this country, that the way in which we treat the | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
terrorists of the past tells us how we will treat the terrorists of the | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
future. I am glad that was such a powerful point in the studio! You | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
have got your fans! This should really worry us. During the IRA | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
campaign people said we would never give in to terror. All MPs and | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
policemen and all the others said the same thing again this week but | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
the record shows in this country that we can give into terror and we | :07:07. | :07:14. | |
have. So the whole issue of media coverage, as it were, by comparison | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
with that fundamental societal problem is relatively easy to solve. | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
So we are playing their game? Why is it wrong, Mohammed? Let's go over | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
the basic principle. Two men behind bars. One looked down and saw mud | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
and the other looked up and saw stars. What you will find with | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
organisations like the right wing organisations, they always pick up | :07:38. | :07:47. | |
the worst, like Douglas. What we had this week was a fantastic unity of | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
every community coming together and reflecting the grief of a nation and | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
innocent people being murdered. We had bravery from police officers and | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
we had passers-by helping out. We can focus on the bad or the good and | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
the good is that if this is all they can do they are not getting very | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
far, the terrorists, are they? There is something else that seems to | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
match the tempo of Isis, which was the killing of Jo Cox. He actually | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
killed an MP and only two MPs said it was an attack on democracy and | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
nobody else echo that. Lots of people said it was an attack on | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
democracy. From MPs and prominent individuals, I think mostly the | :08:35. | :08:42. | |
Labour Party said so. The point here is that many individuals come out to | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
do acts of terrorism, and there was not as much focus on Thomas Mair as | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
there was an other terrorist attacks that have occurred in the UK. That | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
is quite simple why that was, because there was an impending court | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
case. In this case there is no impending court case because he was | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
shot dead. There is a lot of speculation. Do you think they are | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
comparable, the murder of Jo Cox and what happened the other day? No, and | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
we are doing it again. We are avoiding the common denominator in | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
these attacks. Of course terrorism comes from all different areas. But | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
we are talking about Islamic terrorism in its own right and there | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
is nothing wrong with that and we should be able to. Thomas Mair is | :09:33. | :09:40. | |
Islamic? You said the comment nominator. I am talking about the | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
apparently random attacks like the one we saw in London last week that | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
we are putting down to a random criminal. How many random criminals | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
of the same faith are we going to have before we look at the elephant | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
in the room and it has been in the media all week? We will never know | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
what can possibly have driven him and the only thing not a possibility | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
is religious belief and the fact that a person has been involved in | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
crime or taken drugs does not exclude them... Lots of people have | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
said it is Islamic. They have not. The Prime Minister in the comments | :10:13. | :10:14. | |
this week told is very matter that this was a perversion of great | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
faith. She didn't offer scriptural backing for that and you said it | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
with no analysis or investigation of Scripture. But we are looking at the | :10:23. | :10:33. | |
motivation of the individuals. In the past couple of years we have had | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
two events in this country, one the Leytonstone tube station stabbing, | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
and the other the Russell Square stabbing in London, which were | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
initially attributed to Islamic fanaticism and it was later | :10:46. | :10:47. | |
perfectly clear beyond any doubt that the person involved was | :10:48. | :10:55. | |
actually crazy. The Leytonstone stabber according to psychiatrists | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
actually believed that Tony Blair was his guardian angel. This is not | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
a person who can be taken seriously as a political act. And if you look | :11:05. | :11:13. | |
also at various events attributed to Islam, particularly the Nice killer, | :11:14. | :11:24. | |
he never attended the mosque, he at pork, he was an atheist according to | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
his brothers, who was a boozer and a petty criminal, and the same or | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
similar of the man who drove the truck in Berlin. An arsonist, petty | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
criminal and a thief. If you are looking for the origins of these | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
things, it doesn't mean that none of his adversaries is Islamic but some | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
of them are not. Other people want to come in. Isn't it hugely | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
counter-productive for what you want to say about this religion and what | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
you believe this religion leads to if you all the sudden jump on single | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
atrocity and say it is because of this religion? I am not suggesting | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
we jump on every atrocity. I am saying we need to include religion | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
in the list of possibilities of what drives these people. They are not | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
all the same, but we cannot honestly discuss this without an examination | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
and an analysis of the religious scriptures. I also want to know what | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
these people are saying themselves. Police in Germany declare somebody | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
to be mentally ill but why? What are they doing to conclude they are | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
mentally ill? We have a right to know this and what these people are | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
saying and doing before they carry out these acts. We haven't heard | :12:36. | :12:50. | |
from Rashad Ali, but I am bearing in in mind your contributions for the | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
future! This conversation demonstrates the issues. Nobody has | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
a problem with discussing the issues. The issue is the editorials. | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
It is the way the facts are presented by people with a | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
particular agenda. They can horseshoe anything into that agenda. | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
Or the speculation. We saw the media responses and we saw good responses | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
from the BBC this time, measured and weighted responses to what happened. | :13:20. | :13:27. | |
We have seen people speculating about who this person was. Channel 4 | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
News? And others released information without fact checking | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
simple things. They literally rang up solicitors to verify if this | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
person was around and it turned out the individual named is in prison. | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
Other people contacted the family and they said he is definitely in | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
prison. Not him. We had a phenomenon where people with a particular | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
agenda wanted to pursue it and other people reacted on social media, | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
which is way quicker than institutional medias. That is | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
because it doesn't do any checking. You actually have really poor | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
journalism coming out, which is what the problem is. When you remove the | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
journalistic instinct, people Will Satch rack and verify things before | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
putting them out, and when we did have that, it is less | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
sensationalist. -- people will fact check. It is less emotionally | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
driven. It is much less emotionally charged. But it was an emotionally | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
charged event given the tremendous amount of tragedy that came from it | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
but also the inspiring acts of humanity that we saw as well and the | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
nature of the attack on democracy and then all the human stories | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
emerging over the following days. It is good to know about those act of | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
humanity and the human beings behind the tragedy. Those who were | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
slaughtered. That is an important part, don't you think so? I actually | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
agree with Rashad Ali's point of view as somebody who works in the | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
media. I am evidently Muslim and I am both -- of both words. It is | :15:00. | :15:08. | |
really important that you do your job as a journalist and you do it | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
well and that goes back to accuracy. There was misinformation put out | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
this week and the problem is that social media is so quick. So when | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
certain outlets and networks have taken their time to fact check and | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
get the accuracy and they have delivered to the public that news, | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
that is our duty first and foremost as journalists to do a job and do it | :15:32. | :15:38. | |
well. It is across all sectors, broadcast, print, digital, online. | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
We abide by editorial guidelines and it is so important because when we | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
don't it undermines our credibility and the work that we do. It really | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
does. It makes a mockery of the job that we do. Our job is to serve the | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
public and to give the correct information. | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
There is a photograph of the woman with the hijab on social media | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
crossing Westminster Bridge and from afar it looked like she was ignoring | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
the tragedy. But if you actually looked at the close a photograph, it | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
was of her face and she was extremely distraught, possibly | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
falling for help, or to tell her friends and family. She has issued a | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
statement. She has, and the photographer has released the other | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
photographs. She had helped people. Anybody in that frame of mind at | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
that position, I cannot imagine them walking away. Douglas, don't you | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
think this is hugely counter-productive because then you | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
are adding to the feeling in communities that they are being | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
persecuted and being stigmatised and that adds to their agenda, the | :16:47. | :16:54. | |
demonisation of Britain. So it is a feedback loop. I don't think we have | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
got into that. Has it been happening? What are you talking | :17:00. | :17:07. | |
about the EDL for? I am talking about our society as a whole. Our | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
society, our media as a whole, there has not been any crazy response to | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
this. The media, by and large, has done its job. It has been fairly | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
restrained. I agree there is a time, definitely, for all of the | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
discussions that have come up. But on this thing about motive, we | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
should not attribute motives until we know. We should certainly look | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
into the cases where drugs have been involved. I think it is long overdue | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
to consider that. I also think we are long overdue to consider the | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
role that religion can play in these attacks as well. These things are | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
not mutually exclusive. Many people have carried out Islamist attacks | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
and have been eating pork and drinking and so one, and they do | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
what they do precisely as an act of religious purification. That is very | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
common. The 9/11 hijackers went to strip bars and all that kind of | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
thing. These things are not exclusive. It is a complex picture | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
that leads somebody to carry out this sort of thing. We should be | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
having a wide-ranging discussion on it and thankfully on this programme | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
we can. Quite often in the media we do not have as wide ranging | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
discussion and our politicians in particular are clearly terrified of | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
aspects of this discussion. OK, we are open and honest, we have a frank | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
exchange of views but what are our politicians are scared of saying? | :18:29. | :18:35. | |
First of all, they are scared of seeing that actually, the amount of | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
people claiming this week that we will not allow this to change our | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
society, who thought it would? And thought that a guy with a knife in a | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
car was going to bring down democracy? But Douglas, one of the | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
things that has happened ever since the terrorist attacks during the | :18:56. | :18:57. | |
Tony Blair Giroud is that the government have used attacks as a | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
pretext to take away important liberties. Benjamin Franklin said | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
long ago, if you sacrifice your liberty for temporary security you | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
will end up having neither liberty nor security but the government has | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
flagrantly ignored this. More intrusion, more snooping. That has | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
changed our society. Politicians are very afraid of people discovering | :19:21. | :19:28. | |
how very little power they have to prevent these attacks, less than | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
they pretend they have, and they actually cannot do the things that | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
they say they can. But what do you think about what we heard from so | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
many people, we will not be cowed? I think it is a very good thing that | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
people think and say that. But I think some of the response to this, | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
this was not the Blitz. This was not a sustained night after night | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
campaign. It was one attack, brutal, horrible, in the heart of London, | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
but to that extent, emotionally, and I agree with what Peter says, we | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
have to be careful to not overstate. But when a policeman is killed, it | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
strikes at the heart of society. But Nicky, a lot of us here lived | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
through the IRA bombing campaigns, and we remember piles of dead horses | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
and dead human beings in Hyde Park and Regent Park on the same day. | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
Actually, we didn't going into lockdown or half-mast or a minute's | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
silence mode. We thought, OK, these people are our enemies and we will | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
put up with that. Our government lets us down by giving in to the IRA | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
bombers and giving them what they wanted, and going to the funeral of | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
Martin McGuinness. They are contradicting what they're saying, | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
Douglas, because on one hand you are saying we do not want to cower to | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
the terrorists and singing their agenda and yet the first thing | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
anyone uses is the word Islam. Listen, I was at Scotland Yard that | :20:55. | :21:02. | |
date, and to qualify as an Islamist incident a pass to fit a certain | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
criteria. It was discussed earlier on but no one mentioned why this was | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
classed as an Islamic incident. Otherwise it would have just been a | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
homicide. There are certain criteria. If he said the word Allah | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
Akbar, that would clearly have been an Islamist incident. If he had had | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
the flag of Isis, it would have clearly been so. He did not leave a | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
note, he did not say anything. The only thing that makes this a | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
counter-terrorism thing... He was a Muslim? Not even that. We do not | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
know if he was a practising muscle. He was clearly not a very good | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
Muslim. What does that mean? He was taking cocaine, he was into wife | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
bashing, all of those things. If he was a muscle, he would not be taking | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
cocaine Andrew King a goal. -- or taking alcohol. The reason he was | :21:58. | :22:08. | |
attacked was because he had targeted the centre of government. You have | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
given us your view, which is that it is nothing to do with Islam and | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
other people will view that it is. But I am suggesting that as a | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
society, we take time to work out people's motives. It is clear that | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
in your case, you would not want it to be ascribed to an Islamic person, | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
even if it turned out that he had a copy of the Koran in the car, you | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
would say it had nothing to do with Islam. But there are people who | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
would say that it is something to do with Islam, even if it clearly has | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
nothing to do with Islam. But in this whole thing, my simple point is | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
that we should be looking at motives and at the moment there are parts of | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
the anti-terrorism and counterterrorism strategy where the | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
government and politicians are very worried about treading on it, and we | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
saw it in Theresa May's comments this week where she immediately | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
ruled one aspect of this whole thing out. I want to go to the audience to | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
get comments about the way that this has been covered. Good morning. I | :23:02. | :23:09. | |
wanted to say, when it actually happened, I was almost, not in fear, | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
but I wondered how quickly it would be that the word Islam or muscle | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
would mentioned in the report. And it did not take long. -- Islam or | :23:18. | :23:25. | |
Muslims. Does it give the oxygen of publicity to Islamic State, who | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
claimed some connection? Is it counter-productive, the way the | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
media covers it? Now we have the 24-hour media, so perhaps it is | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
exacerbated. They do cover it, and all the papers cover it. I think | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
with social media, they have to because it is all out there very | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
quickly anyway. People are making comments on social media, that way. | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
That was my thing. I was waiting for it. It was amazing how quick it | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
happened. I don't think you can ignore it as it is such a big event | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
but the fact is, I was quite pleased with how the media reacted with a | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
positive message. They showed individual acts of bravery and | :24:09. | :24:16. | |
things like the cartoon of Big Ben with big muscles, rather than fear | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
and cowardice. It was a positive message, the fact that it will not | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
change the way that we act and London and the UK will carry on. As | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
humans, it is innate to want to seek simple answers to incredibly complex | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
questions. I think what happens in the media a lot is that people want | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
to jump on one thing because that makes it easy to understand. If we | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
as a media and as society looked on things as a mental health issue, | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
mental health services are pulling in this country and it is difficult | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
for people to access those services. That is somewhere where we need to | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
look to make change in society and make things better. Abdulla, what | :24:55. | :25:04. | |
did come out of this and it was a good thing to focus minds is that 13 | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
terrorist plots, serious plots have been thwarted since the killing of | :25:09. | :25:15. | |
Lee Rigby. I'm sure you want to pay tribute to our intelligence | :25:16. | :25:17. | |
services. Yes, but today's discussion is about the press and | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
the media. One of the problems is these regulation and the constant | :25:21. | :25:30. | |
reiteration that goes beyond how the IRA attacks were covered. I must | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
remind everyone that the IRA killed more British people every year | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
during the troubles than any Al-Qaeda or Islamic State inspired | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
attacks. What you mean by quote unquote? They are Islamic State | :25:44. | :25:53. | |
inspired. I mean to say ascribed to Muslim attacks. The ones that claim | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
to be. This is the issue, because what is the objective of terrorists? | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
The objective is not necessarily to kill all infidels. We do not see | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
terrorism in South America or South Africa or Switzerland or the | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
Republic of Ireland but we do see a desire to scare the British public | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
and the French public and the American public to secure political | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
goals. Al-Qaeda and Isis do not have the power to scare people in John | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
O'Groats and Lands End, but the media, which reiterates these | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
attacks and speculate... Were you not scared returning to the question | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
I asked, by the fact that there have been 13 terrorist plots thwarted | :26:38. | :26:45. | |
since 2013? And also thousands of people on the intelligence services | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
watchlist up and down the country, in a publishing of 60 million that | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
is not a lot but it is an awful lot of people who are inspired by this. | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
Do you want to come back to what he is saying? I am happy that terror | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
attacks have been prevented and I hope that we see no terror attacks | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
from any group ever again, but today's discussion is really about | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
whether terror attacks, or terrorists, should be given the | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
oxygen of publicity. Publicity or infamy is only a form of celebrity | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
and we do not want to give these terror attacks the celebrity that | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
they should not enjoy. I want to speak in a minute about the IRA and | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
your coverage of that, and the coverage of IRA atrocities in the | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
past. What is the alternative to the oxygen of publicity? Are we expected | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
to ignore these things altogether? What is it we are actually looking | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
for here? I don't think we are giving it the correct coverage at | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
all. It has been described as a single terror act in London, but how | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
many attacks have been across Europe in the last couple of years? And | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
what have they got in, Can we not use our common-sense | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
and sit down and look at the religion that is possibly driving | :27:58. | :28:06. | |
this. When the IRA were doing what they did, did everyone scramble to | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
find an excuse? They were criminals, they were involved in drug abuse, | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
they were mentally ill, or to the accepted they were Irish Republicans | :28:16. | :28:17. | |
with an Irish Republican aim? If there is no problem with Islamic | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
scripture inspiring bits, then let's look at it. Why are we not looking | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
at it? If it is not Islamic structure, then we have no problem. | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
Wait a minute, wait a minute. Surely the point is that you establish the | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
facts, you get the facts right, you infer from the facts what may have | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
happened and then you report what did happen. That is what I am asking | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
for but I do not think that is happening. You are saying we should | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
start with conclusions. I am not. I am saying we want the truth. You are | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
making assumptions. I want religious fervour to be included in the list | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
of reasons that made this man who he was. Peter, and a second. You were | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
looking like you were not agreeing with that. I agreed to parts but not | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
all of that. When you speak about journalism and accuracy, of course. | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
We all want the truth. It is not just you, it is me. So let me tell | :29:16. | :29:24. | |
you for myself, and I can speak perhaps on behalf of 99% of the | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
British Mars in public, that generally none of us know the motive | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
is behind people who carry out these acts. I myself are very much part of | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
the society, I am born and raised a Londoner and I am and observant | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
Muslim. You do not see somebody like me carrying out these acts inspired | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
by my faith. And people are analysing scripture. It is not the | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
crown of the biblical scripture, you seem to be quite hung up on the fact | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
that this is a Koranic scriptural point. Scripture is open to | :29:58. | :30:06. | |
interpretation. If they are not quoting scripture, why are we | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
bringing scripture into this? Because a lot of them caught the | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
verses that say find the infidels, root them out and kill them. Douglas | :30:15. | :30:22. | |
wanted to come in. This is a great example of it right here. Saba | :30:23. | :30:30. | |
thinks that none of the terrorists ever caught the Koran. Let me give | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
you an example, the killers of Lee Rigby. Michael Adebolajo, on his | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
body, when the police arrested him, he had a note in his pocket, to his | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
young daughter, explaining why he did what he did. You can see a | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
facsimile on the BBC website and there are footnotes of Koranic | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
verses that he thinks justify his actions. That is the beginning... | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
Let me finish. Everyone is talking... Let me just finished my | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
point. That would seem to be there for a very clear occasion, never | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
mind the thousands of others we could list, a very clear occasion in | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
this country where one of our soldiers was murdered on our streets | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
where clearly scripture had something to do with that. The | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
problem that a lot of us have is that we are willing to discuss the | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
drugs bits, we are willing to discuss the foreign policy bit and | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
all this, but why are you not willing to concede that there is a | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
religious element sometimes? Listen, here is my plan. I will speak to | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
Peter in a minute but we will take it to what happened in Ireland over | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
the troubles. I don't want to make it theological. | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
It is not theological. The one point that we haven't mentioned which is | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
crucial to all of this is the radicalisation of people in prisons. | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
I have seen people that don't practice coming out of prison as | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
red-hot radicals. I am sure you have seen people coming out of prison as | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
convert and you celebrate their conversion as well. It can go either | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
way. The point is what is happening? We have put them into a state | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
institution that should be a safe zone. And they are coming out as | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
Isis recruits. Some have got to be separated from the other prisoners | :32:19. | :32:26. | |
so the toxicity doesn't spread. But hang on. We have not heard from | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
Peter Bush. Good morning to you. Welcome! What do you think, Peter, | :32:30. | :32:37. | |
of the coverage of this? The department of war studies at King's | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
College London. Is it important over the days to hear the human stories, | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
the tragedies and the heroism, which is what unfolded in newspapers apart | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
from the analysis? Is it right, the way this has been covered? That part | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
was certainly right, to tell both sides of the story and to get as | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
wide a view as possible, but where you have got to be careful, I think, | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
and we have listened to this discussion here so far, is when you | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
think about oxygen and publicity, part and parcel of the idea of | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
terrorism and what is really behind it is attention seeking. To affect | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
more people with the act of violence and the people who were actually | :33:20. | :33:27. | |
there -- than the people who actually there in that part of | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
London. And when you talk about media coverage and the way you cover | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
it, you have got to be careful not to follow some kind of script about | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
the act of violence itself. It is not just the media action but the | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
people who give voice in the media, who talk and want to talk in the | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
media, be that from a political point of view or the politicians in | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
general. For example, clearly something that many people would | :33:56. | :34:03. | |
call a symbolic place was attacked. But we decide whether this place is | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
symbolic. Parliament. Do we say this was an act of terrorism against | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
democracy? That is our decision. Our reaction is very important in this | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
case. It could have happened in Epping Forest or something. Would we | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
have reacted the same way? This is the choice. We have got to step | :34:22. | :34:30. | |
back, I think, and think about it and makes the decision whether we | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
want to follow the certain script that this person wants us to follow. | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
We talk about an attack on us all and so on and so forth. Or do we try | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
to stick to the facts and the simple story and try to unravel what is | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
behind it and then draw conclusions? Social media has changed the game. | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
Peter, and more contributions from the audience in just a second, | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
please. Social media has changed the game. But in Northern Ireland, I | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
remember, and I have spoken to you about this before. You followed | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
Gerry Adams around America and at every press conference that Gerry | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
Adams gave you were his worst nightmare. There was Peter Hitchens | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
at the back! You could see Mr Adams thinking, oh gosh! The thing is that | :35:19. | :35:26. | |
we had that period when Mrs Thatcher said do not give them the oxygen of | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
publicity and we had the ludicrous situation when actors were dubbing | :35:32. | :35:38. | |
the voices of Mr Adams and Martin McGuinness, occasionally subverted | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
by leaving in coughing that belonged to Mr Adams. It was a good job for | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
the actors but it was ludicrous. It was futile and it illustrates the | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
great difficulty of what wonders about this. One of the French | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
newspapers, Le Monde, tried to stop using the names of the perpetrators | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
and was turned on by the rest of the French media for failing to take the | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
thing seriously. We all have a difficulty. We can't ignore this | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
stuff. We have got to give it a lot of coverage because it is a big | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
event but the question is how we cover it and whether we do so | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
intelligently. And anything is a discussion -- another thing is a | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
discussion of what is in the minds of other people. I was an extremist, | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
Trotskyist, full of utopian garbage. I didn't kill anybody. The gap | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
between being a fanatic and being a killer is considerable and what we | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
are not looking at is this. When you look at Martin McGuinness, what he | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
did personally, we don't know, but he certainly ordered large numbers | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
of deaths. What happens to someone to make him do that? The roots of | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
fanaticism are not just a matter of belief, they are matter of believing | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
so strongly that what you think is right that you kill or in some cases | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
being so disinherited by the collapse of your reason that he will | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
do very violent things. The difficulty is in telling which is | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
which. There is no question that Islamic fanaticism has been involved | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
in a lot of terrorist attacks, 7/7 and 9/11, beyond any doubt, but it | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
doesn't mean that all events have got to be fitted into that. Do you | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
celebrate the peacemaker, Martin McGuinness? I celebrate that he | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
changed and I don't think the British authorities gave in to the | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
IRA. I think the IRA gave into the of law. Who dismantled their | :37:34. | :37:41. | |
intelligent system? Who dismantled the RUC? Is prisoners were released? | :37:42. | :37:52. | |
-- whose prisoners were released? The keyword here is proportion. We | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
have got to report what goes on with the IRA and with Masood but we don't | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
have to overindulge and yes it has been astonishing that there have | :38:01. | :38:08. | |
been many more deaths than the four people on Westminster Bridge, even | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
though that is horrifying. But it strikes that our hearts, doesn't it? | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
Of course. But we don't need the back story of every single witness | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
and have ten pages four days per week. One of the problems is the | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
media itself. We used to have half an hour on the Six O'Clock News and | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
Ten O'Clock News and now the media needs the terrorists feed into their | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
news. There is some kind of unhealthy relationship between those | :38:34. | :38:40. | |
who create the news and the media who actually need it to keep it | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
going 24 hours. We can look at the media as the media of what people | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
want. The truth is why does the media focus on certain stories for | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
long periods of time? Because that is the British public is in. And | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
partly it does shape attitudes but it is also a reflection of what is | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
happening. We need explanations, we need somebody to blame. Yes, but we | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
were having this conversation earlier. 200 people were killed in | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
Mosul as the result of an attack and the US have said it was them but it | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
did not have the same coverage and that is because there is not the | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
same appetite for that coverage. It is still there for people who want | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
to look at it. So it is a commercial consideration? Yes. Obviously 24 | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
hour news pushes this and there is a lot of speculation because of it. | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
There are things about that which are unhealthy but it is nothing like | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
as unhealthy as, looking back to the past and our attitude to terrorist | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
activities in the past and present, when the IRA killed many soldiers, | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
what did we end up doing? We put the people who orchestrated that | :40:02. | :40:03. | |
campaign at the heart of government and that is much sicker than the | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
idea that anybody 20 years from now associated with ragged back row | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
could be put into power, which is much more of a societal sickness | :40:12. | :40:20. | |
than 24 hour news. -- people associated with Masood could be put | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
into power. Has this debate been self-defeating because it has given | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
unnecessary oxygen to those people who would destroy us or has it been | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
responsible and the right way to cover? I think overall it has been | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
quite responsible however there have been some tabloids and the news that | :40:41. | :40:48. | |
has gone out, as we are all aware, that has been misinformation. Things | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
like Birmingham being the jihadist capital of England, that is not | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
helpful, unless it is backed up by evidence. It is. It is not the | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
capital, it is the second. London is the capital of terrorism in the UK | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
and Birmingham is second. Debatable. No, if you look at the statistics | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
released earlier this month, it proves that. I have got to come in | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
on confession which we are going to discuss in a moment. If anyone has | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
got anything to confess, that is coming up. Thank you. | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
You can join in all this morning's debates by logging | :41:26. | :41:27. | |
on to bbc.co.uk/TheBigQuestions and following the link | :41:28. | :41:29. | |
Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq. | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
Tell us what you think about our last big question too. | :41:33. | :41:34. | |
Should the secrecy of the confessional be sacrosanct? | :41:35. | :41:36. | |
And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
We're in Brighton next week and Cambridge on April 9th. | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
Then, after a break for Easter and the London Marathon, | :41:45. | :41:46. | |
we're back from York on May 30th for two shows, the usual live | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
programme in the morning, plus we're recording a special | :41:50. | :41:51. | |
So do email the audiencetbq address if you fancy taking part | :41:52. | :41:59. | |
Confession is said to be good for the soul. | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
Telling God your sins, perhaps through the medium of a priest, | :42:07. | :42:08. | |
expressing contrition, and making amends for them | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
is an essential part of faith and is as old as the Bible. | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
And the same idea underlies modern psychotherapy too. | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
If you can't come to terms with what you have done, | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
you can never move on, or lighten the burden of your past. | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
But where does this leave your confessor, the person you have | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
If he's a Catholic priest, the answer is clear. | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
He can never tell anyone - not his bishop, not the local | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
police, not the partner you may have betrayed - | :42:37. | :42:38. | |
But should all confessors follow the same rules? | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
Are there times when the enormity of what they have been told requires | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
disclosure, perhaps to a potential victim or to the police? | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
Should the secrecy of the confessional be sacrosanct? | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
Rabbi Romain, you have written a very interesting book on this and I | :42:57. | :43:05. | |
will come to you in a second, and I want your response to Doctor Peter | :43:06. | :43:15. | |
Petkoff, from Regent's Park College. If over the years some priests had | :43:16. | :43:17. | |
taken information from the confessional and gone to the police, | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
think of the misery that people would not have had to go through. | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
Think of the torture that people who were abused would not have had to | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
live with all their lives. Think of all the people who would not have | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
been killed by terrorism. To keep it in the confessional is surely, and | :43:38. | :43:49. | |
unarguably wrong. Of course you can make this argument using a | :43:50. | :43:58. | |
particular moral paradigms. If our moral requirement is the pursuit of | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
truth and if that requires breaking a particular confidentiality | :44:03. | :44:04. | |
agreement we therefore have got to break it, and this has been | :44:05. | :44:11. | |
historically the position of utilitarians who have argued that a | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
breach of confidence in certain situations should be allowed. It | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
into the morality pretty simple? But there is the other argument that we | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
maintain confidentiality because that is what gentlemen do. If we | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
have promised to keep a secret, we keep it. But can the law in | :44:28. | :44:36. | |
particular create a balance, not only in relation to confessionals, | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
but in relation to a number of other things? If somebody comes to a | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
priest and says I have got a sexual interest in children and I am acting | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
upon it, I want your help on this, would you go to the police? I am not | :44:50. | :44:57. | |
a priest. Should the police be told by the priest? If he had a Catholic | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
priest and he has the choice between losing his priesthood and being as | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
communicated for breaking a specific ecclesiastical law or to save a | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
child, it is a personal choice he has, for me. It is not an | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
institutional choice. With that be a difficult choice? I am quite | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
appalled that it is even a choice in the first place. Obviously | :45:25. | :45:26. | |
confession is about to be handled with care and sensitivity but | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
actually if somebody is going to harm others or themselves then there | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
is no religious doubt whatsoever that you do have to break | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
confidentiality. Is a but those are made. You have to | :45:40. | :45:54. | |
put human needs in front of rituals. There is a big difference between | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
praying away a missed confession, and sins against human beings. They | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
cannot be prayed away. You have to rectify them. If someone came to me | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
as a rabbi and said I am a paedophile and I cannot control | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
myself, I would say, you have to hand yourself then or I will come | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
with you, or if you do not, then I will go on to the police. Frankly, I | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
could not look the mother in the eye of his future victim and say, I knew | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
what was going to happen but I did not tell you. APPLAUSE. Of course | :46:24. | :46:31. | |
we're talking about different because what you are referring to is | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
a confidential pastoral advice that you may giving private. What are you | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
talking about? As far as conversion is concerned, in specific context, | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
because not all Christian churches take the same view on confession, | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
there are different degrees in which that is taken seriously. If we are | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
talking about the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church is, confession | :47:01. | :47:07. | |
is central to the Christian identity. It is sacrosanct? Changing | :47:08. | :47:16. | |
it, removing it requires such complex institutional and | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
theological change that it would prevent Christians from being able | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
to fully... I think lives come before institutional change. | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
Sometimes religious leaders have to have the courage to change, when the | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
rules of the past are no longer relevant. Let me bring Chris in. Is | :47:37. | :47:44. | |
it sacrosanct, confession, what goes on in there? For the catholic church | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
is because forgiveness depends on the intermediate and nature of the | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
priest. But we discussed this at the General Synod a few years ago in the | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
light of the issue of paedophilia. The issue is this confession | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
backward looking. Confession is about people with troubled souls, | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
concerned about things, they go to confession to unburden themselves | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
and talk about it and to seek forgiveness. It seems to me that | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
unless they could go to somebody with whom they have absolute | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
confidence will not disclose it, to whom else so what these people go? | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
They will go to nobody. It seems to me that the position the priest is | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
put in is to withhold forgiveness and absolution unless that person | :48:28. | :48:34. | |
then goes, and he says to them, as the rabbi said, you need to go and | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
tell this to the police. And what if he says I am not going to? You have | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
to remain confidential because... I am going to do it again, that has to | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
remain confidential? That is forward-looking, and then you work | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
with them in terms of counselling and other things, but you do not | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
disclose. I cannot stop my urges and I will do this again. Unquote no | :48:58. | :49:09. | |
disclosure? No disclosure. I find that a pretty appalling attitude. I | :49:10. | :49:11. | |
agree that if children are going to be harmed and we can do something | :49:12. | :49:22. | |
about that, then we should act. What is going on here, we will expect | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
doctors and councillors to break confidential to the agreements is | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
there is a good reason, and we legally require it. But strangely, | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
it is one law, it would appear, for those who are operating in the | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
secular sphere, and then there is another law, with other requirements | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
placed on those who are working within the religious sphere. As a | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
political secularist, my feeling is that the should be a level playing | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
field, the should not be one law for the religious and another for the | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
nonreligious. What I think is important is that when you were | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
talking about the IRA, that was an hero of the past. There is no | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
updated legislation. For instance, whether it is a priest, a rabbi or | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
an imam, if a young man comes up and says, I am off to Syria or I am off | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
to drive around Westminster Bridge and I'm going to knock over a load | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
of people, the counterterrorism act requires that person discloses that | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
information otherwise they will be arrested. I think things have been | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
upgraded a little bit. What is the legal situation, Chris? This has | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
been discussed for hundreds of years, particularly over the issue | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
of treason. It came up over the gunpowder plot and things like that. | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
It has always been the case that the law of the church has been regarded | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
as foundational in this matter, except when a matter comes into the | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
matter of criminal. If criminal law is involved, there are other issues. | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
I understand that. But my understanding is that unless they go | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
to somebody who they know will not confide, they will not confide in | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
anybody. -- the matter of criminal law. We're looking at a very extreme | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
case. It is not really going to happen that somebody says, I'm going | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
to do this and I'm going to confess to a priest. Somebody confesses to | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
the priest because they are troubled by something and if they know that | :51:16. | :51:22. | |
the priest might share it to... But we know that the child abuse | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
cover-up happened for decades in the church. For decades. That | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
confessional conversation will, I'm sure, have happened on very many | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
occasions. Let me put it to you, Peter, because you mentioned the IRA | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
earlier on, what is in the confessional and IRA bomber were to | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
have said, and we know about the label on the proverb priests, was to | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
have said in the confessional to his priest, I'm going to carry out this | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
atrocity, and I hope my Lord and Father forgives me, Hail Mary, | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
whatever, should that priest had gone to the police? I am a | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
Protestant and I have no particular interest in this. I do not subscribe | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
to the sacrament of confession. Looking at the argument, we seem to | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
be approaching it as some people approach torture, by producing an | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
example which is not realistic. I am utterly and completely opposed to | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
torture. I do not believe it is sanctioned under any circumstances. | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
The reply is always, what if there is a ticking time bomb. But there | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
has never been such an episode. I do not believe, actually, that IRA | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
terrorists went and told priests that they were going to kill people. | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
I also believe that if someone takes the sacrament of confession | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
seriously, you will also believe that you will burn in hell if you | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
abuse a child. It is unlikely that such a person is going to... Stop | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
right there. The whole thing is a hypothesis, designed to attack a | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
particular church. But terrorists told the police after they committed | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
the authority, we know that. Should the police have then gone... So we | :53:01. | :53:08. | |
have to formulate that. But today, they would be arrested. I'm not here | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
to defend the Roman Catholic Church to which I do not belong. Nor am I | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
particularly interested in the sacrament of confession. What I'm | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
saying is that what is being advanced here is an extreme and | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
unlikely hardcase hypothesis to attack, if I can just finish, to | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
attack the practices of a particular church. And I do not find it | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
particularly convincing. Let me give you a simple everyday case that is | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
less extreme. One of my congregants came home and found her husband in | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
bed with his secretary. Confidentially, she told me she was | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
delighted and the reason was because actually he had been abusing her for | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
years and years. She had never had the courage to say anything and she | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
did not want to go public and now she had a legitimate reason, a | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
respectable reason for the divorce. The problem started three years | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
later when he actually went out with somebody else, and got engaged. | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
Confidentially, I knew that he was an abuser. This second potential | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
wife was a very feisty lady and I thought she could look after herself | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
but on the other hand, a person who had abused once could be abused | :54:11. | :54:17. | |
again. Should I break the confidence and tell the fiance that he was | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
actually a wife beater? In the end I decided that she had a right to that | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
information so I broke confidence and I did tell the fiance. There was | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
an example where I think that actually you have to put the | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
interests of other people first. Did she marry him? In the end, a few | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
weeks later they split up. Which is a very good example but it is | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
actually a very different thing. You wanted an everyday example and I | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
gave it to you. The gentleman at the back, good morning and welcome. When | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
you look at the Scriptures if you look at Romans 13 in the Bible, the | :54:53. | :55:00. | |
King James, it says you must submit yourself to society. In Acts five it | :55:01. | :55:02. | |
tells you quite specifically that you have to follow the law of the | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
land. Where you see criminality or someone is doing something wrong, | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
you have to submit to that biblically. Really, I see it is | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
quite benign. When you are looking at the case of terrorism or whatever | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
it is, if someone is committing a crime you have a duty of care to | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
your other fellow human beings to react in the correct manner. I think | :55:26. | :55:34. | |
the level of criminality here is important. Where it is a personal | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
thing, as we saw with the rabbi, that can be quite a constructive | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
thing, but when we come to the point that you are breaking the law, I | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
think that obviously you have a duty to report that. Actually, there are | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
laws that say, for example, you could be perverting the course of | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
justice, you could be an accomplice to a crime if you do not report it. | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
There are aspects of terror legislation where again if you do | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
not report it, you are part of the problem. At that stage, everybody, I | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
think, has a duty to report it. Looking at a person who is possibly | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
giving this confession, you actually are helping them by doing that. I | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
think that is a very important stage. APPLAUSE. | :56:16. | :56:25. | |
All religious figures have a duty to uphold the sanctity of human life. | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
By withholding that information, they are not doing what they are | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
there to do. And if they are putting their own faith before the sanctity | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
of human life, that is selfish. It is a fascinating discussion. You | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
have put a hard case of a priest in a confessional knowing about a | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
paedophile. Two widen that out, consider the number of people in our | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
society who do not, who have not sworn they will keep secrets but | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
have done. For personal reasons, community or social reasons, look at | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
the number of people who must've known about Jamie Savile's abuse, | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
for example. They kept silence, not because they were sworn to but | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
because they felt the pressure. It is quite easy to think of this as | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
the hardest problem for a catholic priest but as a society, a lot of | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
people in our society cover up things, whilst moralising about | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
things like catholic priests. And as a practising Catholic, one wonders | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
what might be revealed in the confessional when he was in church. | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
Any other comments? At the back, the lady there. I am sure that hiding | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
things makes you an accomplice and makes you a criminal as well. It is | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
a very serious issue when it comes to child abuse and stuff like that. | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
If I could have been saved, as a sufferer myself, I would have loved | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
it. I was formally Hindu and I am not religious any more for the same | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
reason. People hide things when the moral of probation is that you are | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
supposed to save the child, save people who are dying, because the | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
impact is way more massive than you may be burning in hell after you are | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
dead. It is ridiculous, you are ruining people's lives and they will | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
have to live afterwards. It is not acceptable. We are running out of | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
time, Chris. The issue here is that if you remove that, there is nobody | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
that people who are troubled by these things can go to. Nobody. What | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
sort of society is that? We are out of time. Thank you all very much | :58:28. | :58:29. | |
indeed. Thank you. APPLAUSE. . As always, the debate will continue | :58:30. | :58:38. | |
online and on Twitter. Next week we're in Brighton, | :58:39. | :58:40. | |
so do join us then. But for now it's goodbye from Oxford | :58:41. | :58:43. | |
and have a great Sunday. I've not given myself that time | :58:44. | :59:08. | |
to sit down | :59:09. | :59:11. |