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and the ageless wisdom of ancient beliefs. | :00:00. | :00:28. | |
Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. | :00:29. | :00:30. | |
Today we're live from Patcham High School in Brighton. | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
This Wednesday Mrs May pulled the trigger on Article 50, | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
the UK's formal application to leave the European Union. | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
Now the wrangling starts to decide the precise terms of Britain's | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
divorce from the EU and of any future relationship between us | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
The UK will no longer be a member of the European single market, | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
that's a direct consequence of the Leave side | :01:00. | :01:01. | |
But Mrs May has also ruled out a so-called "soft" Brexit, | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
where the UK would have access to the European Economic Area, | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
just as Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein do in return | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
for accepting freedom of movement, agreeing to play by the EU's rules | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
Mrs May is opting for a "hard" Brexit, a "clean" one, | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
a "real" one some would say, arguing this fits with Vote Leave's | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
mantra of "take back control" and is the only way to halt freedom | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
of movement from EU countries into the UK. | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
But the Referendum did not ask the British people if they wanted | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
The options posed were just leave or remain in the European Union. | :01:37. | :01:47. | |
And the Conservative Party's manifesto, on which it was elected | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
in 2015, as well as promising the right to vote on EU membership, | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
also made much of the advantages of the Single Market to the UK: | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
"Our commitment to you", it said, is to "reclaim power from Brussels" | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
and "safeguard British interests in the Single Market". | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
"We are clear about what we want from Europe," it went on, | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
Yes to working together when we are stronger | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
Does Mrs May have a mandate for a hard Brexit? | :02:18. | :02:25. | |
Lucy? You worked with the stronger in Europe campaign. There you are. | :02:26. | :02:37. | |
People voted to leave. For Brexit. Deal with it. As you say, they did | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
vote to leave but the question on the ballot paper was do you want to | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
remain or leave, not where do you want to go after so I think there is | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
not a mandate for any kind of Brexit because the terms were not part of | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
the referendum campaign. If you asked a lot of different Leave | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
campaigners they set out a lot of different visions, some said let's | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
stay in the single market and others said let's leave, if you asked a lot | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
of people who voted to leave, if they were clear it meant leaving the | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
single market and the customs unit, the potential issues which would | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
come with that, would people be clear that is what they voted for? I | :03:21. | :03:28. | |
don't think so. Matt, do you want another referendum? I think that is | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
immaterial, I think it would be wise if we decided that Britain was | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
hurtling off a cliff edge it would be nice to have the idea that we | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
could apply the brakes. I do not understand the argument which is | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
currently going about messages about enemies with them, the front page of | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
the Daily Mail, the hard right of the Tory party is debate is over, | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
democracy is a point of singularity never to be revisited after the 23rd | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
of June. We know that democratic vote, I except many good reasons | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
people voted why the dead... A lot of people voted on the basis of lies | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
and misinformation and duplicity. I think once we know what the reality | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
is and the consequences it would be entirely sensible and democratic for | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
people to have an option to have a say again, either by referendum or | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
general election. APPLAUSE What about this business of people | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
voting on the basis of lies, do you think that is patronising? I think | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
incredibly so, when people talk about people lying, what they talk | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
about is the perceived gullibility of the public, thinking the public | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
were duped into doing this. I think that is the underlying message, the | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
idea that the belief in the Roxy is so strong they want to ask us again | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
to get the right answer next time is completely undemocratic. Is there a | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
mandate for hard Brexit, it's the biggest democratic mandate in | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
British political history, people voted with their eyes wide open... | :05:07. | :05:15. | |
52-48. That is how democracy works. If the question was about leaving | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
the single market what do you think the answer would have been? It was | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
clear, both sides told us it would mean leaving the single market. The | :05:27. | :05:35. | |
principle that laws that govern this country should be made in this | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
country, self-determination, you cannot have that within the single | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
market. I will tell you where the condescension and patronising | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
element of this is coming is from the people who are telling British | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
people to shut up and put up, we have voted, move on. You did not | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
shut up and put up after 1975 when he lost the first referendum. This | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
is not the first one, it is the second. People have a right to | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
debate and dissent and it's so condescending of three is made to | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
pretend there is such a thing of the will of the British people. How long | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
until we get the right answer? I think we are, I am against | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
referendums, but generally speaking these are hugely complex issues and | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
I don't feel qualified to have a say and I do not feel the confidence the | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
British public knew what they were getting into. We are going to hear | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
about the economy, nobody knows, that is the truth, nobody knows how | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
this will play out so I argue when we do now let's have the chance to | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
say again. Tom we might not know how this plays out for an awfully long | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
time, that is the thing. Young people voted overwhelmingly to stay, | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
73% of 18-24 -year-olds, this is about our children and grandchildren | :06:57. | :07:05. | |
as well. Is there a mandate for Theresa May for those who will be | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
alive when the true effects of this hit them? In terms of Brexit, it is | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
a gift to young people whether they realise it or not. You have the | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
chance to take part in a real democracy where you can determine | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
the future of society. They should be dancing in the street. I think | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
when it comes down, the point I want to make, is people talk about young | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
people and Scotland and effectively it's an attempt to break up the vote | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
and the electorate which is not how majoritarian democracy works. You | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
see it when people talk about 40% voting remain, it's the equivalent | :07:43. | :07:51. | |
of having a general election next week, the Conservatives win 70% and | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
Theresa May says we will run the country five days a week, Jeremy | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
Corbyn can have it on the weekend. I can see from your body language you | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
do not like what you are hearing. No, I think the point about the | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
Leave campaign was they had so many different positions, it was not at | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
all clear we would definitely leave the single market. Does Theresa May | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
have a mandate for the Brexit she is pushing through? No, there was no | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
mandate because of that lack of clarity. It was not fought on | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
specific terms, this is what it will look like. If you ask the leader of | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
the Leave campaign, they had to get people over the line, they had to | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
get people to vote to Leave. The rest of it is up to the politicians. | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
That is what is disappointing for people like me who were on the | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
Remain campaign and I cleared about what happens to the future of this | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
country, what does the deal look like, how do we make sure trade is | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
as free and frictionless as it was and nobody had a clear answer during | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
the campaign and nobody does now either. There is no mandate because | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
there was not that clarity. We are going to go to the audience, so many | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
hands, that is what we like to see, those people who allegedly did not | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
know what they were voting for. People who did not understand it. | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
Let's investigate some of that. There is a moral and ethical debate | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
about having a mandate and a lot of people Mark Littlewood, Ipsos Mori | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
polling says 33% voted to leave because of immigration. David Davis | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
said this week immigration may go up. You have a certain criteria as | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
to who you would allow into the country without questions, who would | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
that be? I would change the system so if you had a job offer of say | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
?50,000 it's a decent paying job and we would be confident you will be a | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
net contributor to the tax system. You are definitely in. 50,000? | :10:01. | :10:08. | |
50,000. If it is a lower level, an average wage, you can come in but | :10:09. | :10:16. | |
you might not qualify for the benefits the indigenous population | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
qualify for. No housing benefit until you have contributed such and | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
such in income tax, you might only be able to access the NHS and tell | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
you contribute... What about all these different industries, | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
agriculture, hotels, catering, about them? They would fit in the second | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
category, as long as these people are coming in without being a net | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
drain, I am liberal on immigration. In an ideal world I would have | :10:45. | :10:52. | |
audits but we do not live in an ideal world. To get the debate back | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
on track we have to address peoples concerns and concerns are whether | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
there is a drain on public services. There is an easy way to solve that, | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
if you are coming in with loads of money and paying huge of tax you can | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
have services, but if you're coming in with less your qualifications for | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
benefits will not start immediately. That's not an immigration policy you | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
can have as a member of the EU but you can outside. Yeah. You looked | :11:19. | :11:31. | |
exasperated. I am exasperated by the ideology which is playing out. What | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
sort of ideology is it? Is it hard right? It feels hard right to me. I | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
think it's a message the right-wing press has been pushing for ten | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
years, the Daily Mail has been this Pavlovian experiment about | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
migration, it is a net benefit to this country. When I hear things | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
about the categorisation, ?50,000 you are in, ?25,000 you are in but | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
you cannot see a GP, that does not seem very British to me, it is not | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
the values I signed up to as a British person. I think we live in | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
an open society and this is the split, we have seen a move away from | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
the traditional spectrum to different attitudes of open to | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
Europe, open to globalisation is. Cultural attitudes and sentimental | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
attitudes. The communities who voted to leave in the greatest numbers are | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
the most fragile in our nation. In the north-east were they voted to | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
leave in great numbers their economy is most fragile. In the South East | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
in London it will be fine. So the people who voted for at most will | :12:40. | :12:47. | |
the most? They will suffer the most. Does Theresa May have a mandate for | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
a hard Brexit, a real Brexit, whatever you want to call it? I | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
think it boils down to two Basic questions, first of all is the vote | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
of the majority, if it is a simple majority, enough to enforce such a | :13:03. | :13:11. | |
thing as Brexit and put it on a whole country even though 45% of the | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
voters did not go for it. 40% did not go for it, what Tom was saying, | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
and majority system. My question would be if democracy should work | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
that way, then it is a tyranny of the majority. The other thing is | :13:29. | :13:36. | |
when it comes to if there is a mandate, if there is enough | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
information and we have to deal with the post-truth error and | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
misinformation which has been spread all over the country regarding the | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
question. All that money for the health service we always hear about. | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
Anyone else? Quick point. The gentleman talks about the points | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
system which already exists for International so there is tier one, | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
tear two, that can be adjusted and modified to the European system as | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
well. For investors, workers, law skills, medium skills, higher | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
skills. Does Theresa May have a mandate? I think so. Anyone else? I | :14:26. | :14:36. | |
believe Theresa May does have a mandate for it because the majority | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
of us who were voting for Leave voted on the basis of two things, | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
one that would be controlled migration, the second was that we | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
would trade with the whole world and trading with the whole world means | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
just that, it does not mean trading with European Union exclusively. We | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
can make a deal with the European Union, they need us as much as we | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
need them. Why can't we have a deal with Australia, Canada, other | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
countries we used to have a deal with? If I can add one thing, as you | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
can hear from my accent I am European, I was born in the Czech | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
Republic and I believe that the idea of great Europe is wonderful but | :15:27. | :15:34. | |
it's not enforceable because people are doing things for their own | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
benefit, for their own mandate and I feel a lot of people here who are | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
saying we should have left European Union, those people don't have | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
enough faith in their own British culture. | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
Do we have faith in... Let me put this to you, do we have faith in the | :15:55. | :16:03. | |
people who are leading the negotiations? We saw the Article 50, | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
some people are saying they forgot to mention Gibraltar, they forgot to | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
mention the other land border. Oh, dear! Oops! Some people are saying, | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
well, we need the very best calibre of negotiating. How much faith do | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
you have in David Davies and Liam Fox and Boris Johnson? This | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
Government had to change its Budget after three days. Do you think we | :16:30. | :16:36. | |
have the best people? I think we should remain sceptical, shall we | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
say? The most important period country has faced the decades. We | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
should hope that politicians make sure they have the right people in | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
the room to be able to do this. What is really striking about the Brexit | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
vote is you have this huge radical progressive blow for democracy, | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
which is completely against what the leaders of the political class | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
wanted. The two most powerful politicians in this country | :17:04. | :17:05. | |
campaigned for Remain and are probably shocked they had to deal | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
with this. We have duties this out in the long-term. We voted against | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
technocracy and it is left for technocrats to deal with this. | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
Article 50 was passing through both the House of Commons and the | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
unelected House of Lords, and despite the fact that the vast | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
majority of the people backed Remain, they rolled over in the face | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
of the democratic mandate, the weight of that was really bearing on | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
their backs, that is positive, we need to make sure the negotiations | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
are completed properly and that they uphold what the 17.4 million people | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
voted for. There is a very interesting | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
development, this mantra, that is almost hypnotic mantra of take back | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
control. We have never had less controlled. We saw all the party | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
poppers going from the Leave campaign, Independence Day at all of | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
that and then Donald Tusk said, sorry, it will not work like that | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
and you are one against 27. When we were arguing with Spain about | :18:05. | :18:14. | |
Gibraltar it was as versus Spain, in the future it will be us versus 27 | :18:15. | :18:16. | |
EU member states. Much, much weaker. Margaret Thatcher knew it was to be | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
-- was better to be arguing take -- case at the table than outside the | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
table. You can't waive your handbag at an empty chair. There is not even | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
an empty chair, there is nothing. Double the distance, half the trade, | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
that is the basic rule. We're talking about possibly WTO tariffs | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
with our neighbours 20 miles across the Channel in return for which we | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
have a spurious idea free trade... You want to see what is on the table | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
and want another referendum? If I put an offer in on a house and it | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
turns out to be sitting on a sinkhole, I want the opportunity to | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
tear up the contract. The whole nation needs a psychotherapist. | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
Never mind a group hug. We have got one! We have a psychotherapist. Do | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
you think people were stupid? Were they bamboozled and misled? It is | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
not what I think, the evidence is very clear they were misled. Mob | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
rule is a well-known phenomenon, people follow the mob. When the | :19:22. | :19:30. | |
Liverpool eight was destroyed, uprising, it does not that was | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
right. It is hardly a mob uprising. This is not the equivalent of a mob, | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
it was a ballot. This is what democracy is. They were asked in the | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
ballot whether we should leave or remain in the European Union. The | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
people who campaigned to leave were not the people who would deliver | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
Brexit. They were completely independent group. I am interested | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
in the idea that some people may be eligible to come to Britain earning | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
less than ?50,000 on certain conditions. They won't have access | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
to A, for instance. I tell you what, they can work in A, they can | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
nurse Bacon Doctor... APPLAUSE | :20:15. | :20:22. | |
-- they can nurse, and they can doctor. Tom, you are in your 20s, | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
the disproportionate amount of people over the age of 65 who voted | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
for Brexit are not the people who will be around, with every respect, | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
to see the long-term consequences for the country. I dare say it is a | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
very convenient argument to try to undermine the vote. It involves us | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
all and everyone should vote on an equal basis, that is the great thing | :20:46. | :20:58. | |
about democracy, take it or leave it. Over the last couple of months | :20:59. | :21:00. | |
you have seen the anti-democratic comment, which I always believed was | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
there but never really saw up close, you hear phrases like mob rule, the | :21:04. | :21:05. | |
tyranny of the majority. It is incredible. Look at the derision | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
poured upon anybody who questions it in some of the papers. They are | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
called enemies of the people and all sorts. I want to talk about the | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
Leave boaters in relation to this. Since the Brexit vote we have been | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
caught racist, stupid, xenophobic, we did not know what we were voting | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
for, various schemes were cooked up to try to stop this from happening | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
and we got angry and were referred to as the mob. If anyone has been | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
derided, and mind, told they are reckless or stupid, it is the people | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
who voted Brexit in the first place. APPLAUSE | :21:39. | :21:40. | |
Thank you very much. If you have something to say | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, | :21:44. | :21:45. | |
and follow the link to where you can We're also debating live this | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
morning in Brighton: Has the time come to | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
decriminalise sex work? And, do we underestimate | :21:53. | :21:54. | |
the wisdom of the ancients? Get tweeting or emailing on those | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may have | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
about the programme. There has been much discussion | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
in recent years, including on The Big Questions, | :22:06. | :22:07. | |
of the so-called Nordic model of dealing with the sex industry, | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
where the clients may be charged with an offence but the sellers of | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
sex are not acting against the law. Indeed, the SNP has adopted this | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
system as one of its policies. But the Greens and the Lib-Dems have | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
long argued for a different way. They want to decriminalise | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
sex work altogether. And the Lib Dems want to quash any | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
historical convictions for prostitution or kerb-crawling, | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
for instance, and to categorise any future crimes against sex | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
workers as hate crimes. This would mean it would no longer | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
be an offence for a man or woman But it would be an offence | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
to treat someone differently Has the time come to | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
decriminalise sex work? Clear multidimensional is to this, | :22:52. | :23:08. | |
let's start with the moral one, the premise that it is wrong to sell | :23:09. | :23:17. | |
sex. We will come to Tanya is well -- as well, first, and Nikki Adams | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
from The English Collective Of Prostitutes. Where are you? I have | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
got you. What about this notion that the morale of the of the law in | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
forms what happens, or the law makes a judgment about plurality? Is it | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
wrong to sell sex? First ball, I absolutely do not think it is | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
immoral to sell sex, but in terms of that role of the law, the law | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
clearly has an influence on morale tea, on social attitudes, but that | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
should not be the primary function of the criminal law. Those of us | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
that advocate decriminalisation are interested in | :23:57. | :24:08. | |
safety, people selling sex? How do we reduce the harm associated with | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
that practice. Which we will come to, and I want to talk about the | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
premise of whether it is immoral to do it? What would you like on it | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
too? We should not single it out as more immoral than any other form of | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
labour. Such as? Whatever job you do, nursing, which might involve | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
quite intimate physical contact, lots of physical labour. All of the | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
jobs we do involve using our bodies and minds. I don't think sexual | :24:31. | :24:38. | |
labour is somehow more immoral than any other thing. I think there are | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
lots of things that are immoral but are not criminal. Cheating on your | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
spouse, for example, most of us would probably agree it is immoral | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
but that does not mean criminal law is a way to address that. Nikki? The | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
moral framework of it, first all? Some people would say government | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
sell horrendous arms which kill thousands of people to awful | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
regimes, that is legal. That is a good point in terms of comparing it | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
to other activities, but it also depends on your value system and | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
some of us would definitely say that the poverty that means that sex work | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
is one of the best options compared to other forms of employment is the | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
real in morale Oti, that should be urgently addressed. | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
APPLAUSE We are living in a time when many of | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
the Government policies are increasing the levels of sex work. | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
Levels of prostitution, particularly for women, particularly for mothers. | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
There is a lot of evidence from the North of England that benefits | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
anxious, for example, have led to a 166% increase in prostitution in | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
Sheffield. If people want to get hot under the collar about injustice and | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
in morale Oti, let's tackle that. If you are serious about trying to | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
reduce prostitution, that would be a good way to start. Dr Heather | :26:00. | :26:07. | |
Brunskell-Evans, just on this point that we sell arms to dangerous | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
regimes, the government prop bets from the sale of dangerous drugs | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
like alcohol and tobacco, what is it about the morale at its sex being | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
transactional that you believe is wrong? Is it inevitably | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
exploitative? I think it is inevitably exploitative but I do not | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
think it is a moral of people to sell sex. I think the morality is in | :26:29. | :26:36. | |
stigmatising people who sell sex, largely it is not an equal | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
opportunity, it is who sell sex and men who buy. Since the | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
industrialisation of prostitution from the Victorian period, women | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
have been really stigmatised, it is women who are largely in the lower | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
socioeconomic category who do sell sex, and they should not be | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
stigmatised. I think it is a slur on our society that we still sick -- | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
stigmatise people. Decriminalising the act of selling sex, would that | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
lessen the stigma or do you believe the way ahead is to criminalise | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
those who buy sex? Which is the best system which would make people | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
safer? This is a programme about morality, and I think the way in | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
order to address the immorality of the exploitation of women through | :27:31. | :27:38. | |
prostitution and the violence and the murder which is inevitably | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
attached to it is to criminalise the buyers. The problem with this | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
discussion is we tend to focus on the women, it is important now we | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
are in the 21st-century, we should start placing the ways in which we | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
stigmatise women into the context that it is men who are buying it. If | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
men did not make the demand there would be no market for the selling. | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
APPLAUSE This is a very progressive point of | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
view that my position holds, because it is not about bringing more laws, | :28:16. | :28:24. | |
we have enough laws. But the law has a normative function, it has a | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
punitive function but it also has a normative function. The law to | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
criminalise the buyers means that eventually we would change our value | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
system around and make its problematic for men to buy sex from | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
women who they don't know, they don't know whether they have been | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
trafficked... That is a really interesting point, to criminalise | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
the buyers, Niki, is there a danger that thereby you are making it | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
disproportionately people who do not care about the risks of being | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
criminalised? Maybe more violent people? It is a massively dangerous | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
thing to do. At the moment the law forces sex workers to work in very | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
risky situations, you are working on the street, running from the police, | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
you can't work together with others from premises, which is at least ten | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
times safer than on the street. If you criminalise clients, clients | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
insist on being anonymous, you cannot screen them in the same way. | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
In Sweden, where they brought in the Nordic model, sex workers complained | :29:33. | :29:44. | |
that first of all it has not meant they are to criminalised, they still | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
suffer under the law and are prosecuted if they set up working | :29:49. | :29:50. | |
with another woman from premises. Also the stigma and two crewmen -- | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
and criminal eyes Asian has got much worse. Laura Lee is doing a legal | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
case and has made that point, since the law has changed in Northern | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
Ireland, clients will not call you from their mobile phone any more. | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
They will call you from a hotel phone because they are determined to | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
be anonymous. Watch it be the priority is to listen to what sex | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
workers are saying, that improves their own safety. We work very hard | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
to keep ourselves safe. We try to work with other people and often | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
risk being prosecuted for working together and any of the criminal law | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
is sabotaging those impacts. Do you want to stop the injury? -- | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
industry? I do. Can we explore that a bit | :30:32. | :30:45. | |
more, you have enormously important experience in Ipswich where five | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
prostitutes were killed, you have help women get out of prostitution | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
and have done amazing things. Is this an industry which can ever be | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
stopped? Is it not down to the basic sexual desires, there will always be | :30:59. | :31:10. | |
a demand? That's quite a complex question isn't it. That's fine! In | :31:11. | :31:23. | |
Ipswich we followed more or less the Nordic model. Criminalising the | :31:24. | :31:31. | |
buyer. Yes, I agree that as it stands the law is not perfect and | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
could be improved in terms of the safety of women. Who are operating | :31:35. | :31:42. | |
at the moment. But in Ipswich we chose not to criminalise the women | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
and we did not prosecute any women during the whole of the five years I | :31:47. | :31:53. | |
was involved and the men were identified. We are talking about | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
street work to start with. The men were identified and letters were | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
sent to them. Shamed effectively? Privately shamed or maybe if the | :32:05. | :32:12. | |
letter landed on the kitchen table where somebody, a wife someone did | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
not know this was happening, maybe there were shamed. But not publicly. | :32:17. | :32:25. | |
And, but at the same time of course, it was absolutely essential to have | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
the services in place for women so we were not abandoning the women, we | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
were there to help them out of prostitution. And when we worked | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
with them we had police officers who knew them very well and who | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
contacted them. When we worked with them they were very keen, most of | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
them, the majority of them, I would say 98%, wanted exit from | :32:53. | :33:02. | |
prostitution. I agree that poverty drives women into prostitution and | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
the state has a responsibility to make sure women are not forced | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
through poverty to act in that way. But we help these women off the | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
streets. Fantastic work... I will come to you in a minute... What | :33:21. | :33:28. | |
Helen said about out of prostitution, why wouldn't you, that | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
focuses us on the question of is it inevitably exploitative? Some people | :33:33. | :33:39. | |
are nodding, can I ask you what you would like to say? OK, so, I would | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
like to use an exercise that a survivor took me through and this is | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
for people in the audience to look around and look at the men around | :33:50. | :33:57. | |
you, she said look at the men around you. Imagine yourself having to be | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
always, half of the men, imagine women and men here in the audience, | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
you need to be with half of the men here in the audience regardless of | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
what you feel about them one day and the second half the next day and | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
these men can do to you whatever they want, call whatever may may | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
want... That is not true... Whatever they want because they paid money | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
and that is what prostitution is. Is it always exploitative? Is it very | :34:30. | :34:40. | |
often? Of course it is. The big percentage of women that came to | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
prostitution after being sexually abused in childhood, the entrance to | :34:45. | :34:54. | |
prostitution from age 14... No... This is not a student graduating, | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
having a Ph.D. And thinking shall I go into my career or? These are | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
women that have no other choice... Anyone else? Arguably you get two | :35:06. | :35:15. | |
ends of the scale with sex work, you get the ones who are very pure and | :35:16. | :35:25. | |
then you get the ones which can pay millions, like sports stars... Be | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
careful of naming names! Football stars and things that have been | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
accused of using prostitutes. Arguably those six workers are in | :35:36. | :35:44. | |
the industry to make money and it is their choice. Do you believe it is a | :35:45. | :35:51. | |
choice Mark Littlewood? That has to be how you start, it is a choice but | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
we should not say it is always exploitative. We trust adults to | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
engage in consensual activities of all sorts and we should assume this | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
is consensual unless there is a specific evidence. Even if you find | :36:07. | :36:14. | |
sex work or prostitution this tasteful, there is a clear rule, if | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
you force things underground they get worse. I think you have to look | :36:19. | :36:27. | |
at it in the context of other jobs, you have this range of experience, | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
some people like their jobs, most people hate them, 60% of British | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
workers dislike their jobs and would prefer to be doing something else | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
and it is probably the same sex workers. It's not true, the figures | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
about the high levels of abuse, the only way people are able to put that | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
forward is they do not compare, they do not ask other people, they do not | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
ask the nurses or factory workers how many were abused as children, it | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
is only sex workers who are asked that question. The determining thing | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
has to be safety. At the moment women in our group are being | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
prosecuted when they come forward to report violence and that has to | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
stop. Decriminalising has been shown to work where you can transform the | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
relationship with the police so you can demand protection. Quick | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
question from the audience. I trained as a nurse and I have | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
experience working as a nurse, I have been shouted at and spat at and | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
I have had various forms of excrement thrown at me, nobody tried | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
to penetrate me because I was at work and certainly not five, six, | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
seven different people I did not know. Who are you to say that one is | :37:42. | :37:49. | |
better than the other? I would prefer to be doing sex work than | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
other forms of work, I do not want to be an Arms trade and I would not | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
want my daughter to be. We have a strange relationship with sex in the | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
UK and the Western world and that is part of the root of this. A number | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
of points have come up today one I want to make which has not been made | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
is that over 10% of prostitutes in the UK are not women, 10% are men | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
and transsexuals, this is not purely a women's issue although I accept | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
the argument about poverty and infrastructure. I looked at American | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
research asking prostitutes why they were doing it and the most common | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
answer was they liked it. There is an assumption... That was a | :38:31. | :38:37. | |
particular piece of research but we make an assumption, those of us who | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
choose not to be prostitutes make value judgments about prostitutes | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
which I do not think are merited. One other point, I work in mental | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
health... Mental health we look at stigma and marginalisation, the | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
answer we have come out with is talk about it, the answer to get away | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
from stigma is to talk to others. If we stigmatise and marginalise sex | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
work people will not talk about it and cannot get the help and support | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
they need. The lady at the back, when he said the main reason is | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
because I like it your hand shot up, is that why? Any woman, man or | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
anything else who wants to sell their body and enjoys it should be | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
allowed to, first of all. The question I have is why do we breed a | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
culture, why do we have a society which breeds the need and | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
desperation to turn to sex work, not just prostitution. Every society in | :39:36. | :39:43. | |
the history of humanity. You would not believe the number of students | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
who consider stripping, sugaring, prostitution, various forms of sex | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
work. It is not just prostitution. The question I have is why do we | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
breed a culture where people feel they are so desperate that they need | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
to and have no other options. Do you want to come back on that Helen? I | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
would like to come back on many of these points. Sadly they do not have | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
time but that was a powerful point from the lady. The lady was saying | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
that people should be allowed to sell their bodies in whichever | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
format that is, pole dancing, prostitution, whatever. The Nordic | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
model argues people should be allowed to sell their bodies in | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
whichever form they want to. But not allowed to buy sex? Absolutely. I | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
think, of course when men are involved in prostitution, as | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
prostituted people, the majority of the people who buy sex are men. | :40:49. | :40:55. | |
There are men who sell sex as well. The person at the back indicated | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
that students are selling sex in one form or another. It is largely | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
female students, not male students so we had to come back to this as a | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
gender issue. A structural issue of gender relations. In the time | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
available, do forgive me, but you mentioned the Nordic model, and we | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
have the model of New Zealand some people have called it, | :41:23. | :41:24. | |
decriminalising it, the legalisation, people talk about | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
parts of Germany and the Netherlands, forgive me for coming | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
for Tanya as we close because you mentioned the Nordic model and she | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
was from her body language and face saying this is never going to work | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
and it is wrong, what is wrong with it? Criminalising people who buy | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
sex? For many of the reasons Nikki already mentioned, it's the risk of | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
safety to sex workers, if clients are commoner lysed have fewer | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
clients. The once you have other one is not worried about breaking the | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
law, you will have a lower income, you might have to have to agree to | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
services you might otherwise not agree to. The Swedish model is | :42:09. | :42:18. | |
extremely successful. No, their own research does not bear that out. | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
Talking about how successful the Swedish model is, it has major -- | :42:24. | :42:32. | |
made it safer. It's extremely dangerous... THEY TALK OVER EACH | :42:33. | :42:41. | |
OTHER Often have PTSD... We are going to have have to bring it to a | :42:42. | :42:55. | |
close. Apologies, I wanted to pick up on the notion of the Swedish | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
system, thank you all very much indeed. We are going to discuss | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
wisdom. High time I think. You can join in all this | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
morning's debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions | :43:07. | :43:08. | |
and following the link Or you can tweet using | :43:09. | :43:10. | |
the hashtag #bbctbq. about our last Big Question, | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
too ? do we underestimate And if you'd like to apply to be | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
in the audience at a future show you We're in Cambridge next week, | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
then after a two week break for Easter and the London Marathon | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
we're back from York on April 30th for two shows, | :43:29. | :43:30. | |
the usual live edition in the morning and a pre-recorded | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
special in the afternoon Then we're in Salford on May 14th | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
also for two programmes. Spring is a very crowded season | :43:36. | :43:43. | |
on the world's religious calendars. The Christian Easter was long | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
preceded by the Pagan Ostara, when the Green Man god awakens | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
from his winter sleep. Zoroastrians celebrate | :43:52. | :43:53. | |
Jamsheedi Noruz, which dates back to the prophet Zarathushtra himself, | :43:54. | :43:55. | |
3500 years ago in Ancient Persia. The Hindus fling paint | :43:56. | :44:02. | |
at each other on Holi, to welcome the spring and celebrate | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
Krishna, who was born Where mankind has lived, | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
since ancient times there have also been complex, | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
mystical and powerful And today their very longevity | :44:14. | :44:15. | |
grants them additional power. Do we underestimate | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
the wisdom of the ancients? Dr Chenta Kang, consultant | :44:22. | :44:33. | |
psychiatrist, a Hindu priest, good morning. Let's knock something out | :44:34. | :44:41. | |
of the park here, with ancient Scriptures, when people start | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
arguing they prove science, it kind of discredits the religion because | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
there are often some howlers as well, we should concentrate on the | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
wisdom, human nature, how we live and think and behave towards each | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
other and those little epithets. Tell us about the Bhagavad-Gita? | :44:59. | :45:08. | |
Its message is simple and similar to message of others, the message of | :45:09. | :45:16. | |
the agents is connect with that part of yourself that is separate from | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
what society imposes on that. Then we can connect with each other. | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
Inequality on that level is not about financial differences, | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
position, power, name and fame, we connect more deeply because we find | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
stillness. In a being, away from the madness and the mania of the world? | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
Some of our biggest obstacles are our own mind. It gets in the way of | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
proper behaviour and proper thinking. We don't take time and | :45:47. | :45:57. | |
space to filter and sift to that. It does not matter if we are a | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
politician or taking care of our family, we will be tripped up. All | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
this was written by men for men? It was not. Chapter one, verse 40 of | :46:08. | :46:16. | |
Bhagavad-Gita, oh, Krishna, descendant of racially, when | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
unrighteousness prevails then the women of the family become degraded. | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
When they become degraded then undesirable offspring is a result. | :46:25. | :46:32. | |
That is quite simple... It is not wisdom, it is misogyny. It is saying | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
that if you do not look after women... Women have a lot of power | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
in society, they are the first teacher of the child, if you do not | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
take care of them they become than rubble, than rubble women are taken | :46:46. | :46:53. | |
advantage of, -- there becomes a Nowell, vulnerable women are taken | :46:54. | :47:02. | |
advantage of. Some were men are -- women are manipulated. Undesirable | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
offspring? If you get pregnant if you do not want to. Don't people | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
have abortions because of undesirable offspring? That is not | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
the wisdom the ancients are trying to give us, but they say that if you | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
find the quiet and the stillness with a new, separate from the | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
busyness around you, connect with each other, all the polls of | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
society, the need to connect, we do not depend on the external to do | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
that. With many texts it is a case that there is a certain cherry | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
picking going on, I like that, I don't like that, I'll interpret that | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
one in a certain way. Emma, were these texts written by men for men, | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
should we be wary of that? I am not a historical expert but I believe | :47:50. | :47:58. | |
they were primarily written by the Brahmin class, which was educated | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
and had some respect given to them for their religious understanding, | :48:03. | :48:04. | |
and I think usually the women at that time would not have been | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
educated so lots of the texts probably would not have been | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
available for them to study to the same degree? What about the wisdom | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
of the ancients? There is certainly wisdom that that wisdom can arise in | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
many places and any circumstances. Yes, ancient texts might inspire | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
some people, but not others. Others might be inspired by seeing human | :48:29. | :48:35. | |
suffering or connecting with nature or seeing a painting, spending time | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
in meditation or reflection. I think wisdom can come in many different | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
forms. I think the important thing is that somebody decides to seek | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
wisdom with a human life and ask these important questions which | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
define our capability as humans. That is the most important thing. | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
And then there are many ways to find the wisdom. Professor of ancient | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
history at the University Manchester, isn't it the case that | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
if you had, I don't know, Bob Dylan lyric and you said you found it in | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
an ancient book, you don't need to be a weatherman to know which way | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
the wind blows, you saw it in an ancient book and you would go, oh, | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
that is brilliant, that is the wisdom of the ancients! Ayew as King | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
whether... We imbue it with too much significance it comes from hundreds | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
of thousands of years ago, but you could see it on a Hallmark greetings | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
cards. You had to give the ancients respect. People who lived and | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
conditions far more brutal than those we live under, who did that in | :49:41. | :49:50. | |
a surge -- in a surge that the other speakers are talking about, finding | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
ideas that are worth living for and then managed to express them in a | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
way... Maybe 2000 years from now we will still be singing Bob Dylan. I | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
am not saying we won't. But in a sense it is like creating a time | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
capsule, the message in a bottle... Message In A Bottle, that is another | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
one! You send your ideas into the world. If people are still | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
protecting and cherry chewing it and playing with it and arguing with it | :50:23. | :50:33. | |
2000 years later... It means something. It is not so much that | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
other people could not have had a similar idea, but we have to have a | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
little bit of respect for the people... That is the interesting | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
thing, to see humanity thousands of years ago trying to make sense of it | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
all. Emma, isn't that the inspiring thing? Absolutely, but I think we | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
need to bear in mind that when these texts were written, most of the | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
population was involved in subsistence agriculture, they did | :51:03. | :51:10. | |
not have the time, opportunity or Google to study, to reflect, to | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
meditate. Despite the busyness of our lives now, many people now have | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
far more choice over how they spend their day. I appreciate not | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
everybody does, but I spend a lot of time in the Himalayas, in developing | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
countries, in rural, agricultural villages where nobody has any time | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
to reflect on meditate because they are planting potatoes and hoping it | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
will rain or not rain. I think that now, particularly in our culture, | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
many people have the opportunity to gather this past wisdom and look at | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
their current lives and become extraordinary spiritual | :51:50. | :51:51. | |
practitioners for the benefit of all. | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
APPLAUSE The time comes when we have to stop | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
planting the potatoes is what you are saying? | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
We have that chance. I would disagree... We are having no | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
disagreement on this programme, I am not having it! At the idea that | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
modern people are somehow more able... I did not say that. In the | :52:16. | :52:25. | |
ancient world, women and children in ancient should editions often lived | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
in cultures that were, in a sense, very dominating of women and | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
children. -- women and children in ancient cultures and traditions. | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
Don't we have a glass ceiling now?! Women and children have always made | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
their contribution and there have always been women's traditions | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
handed down through the generations that have incredible value. When | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
Emma made the point about she is not a historian but you agree that the | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
books were written by men, for men, women were not educated, at the time | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
the Bhagavad-Gita was spoken and written down, the other person that | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
Christian was speaking to, that wife, she was a treasure at the King | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
Dylan very educated. -- the other person that Krishna was speaking to. | :53:13. | :53:22. | |
She was, but would her hundred thousand staff have been educated? | :53:23. | :53:33. | |
That Downton Abbey! The point I am trying to make is that I do not | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
think we over credit ancient wisdom, I think we go the opposite way and | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
throw out the baby with the bath water. What happens is that religion | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
and ancient wisdom get separated, spirituality is separated from | :53:49. | :53:50. | |
religion. Religion is a vehicle to because jewel, to connect with the | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
inner comedy part of ourselves. Because we always shining a | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
spotlight on the negativity and the human mistakes with wisdom, people | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
through the wisdom out and we need to stop living in such a polarised | :54:04. | :54:09. | |
society where there is a factual, scientific way and then the | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
wishy-washy faith and religious way. They go hand in hand. In 5000, 6000, | :54:15. | :54:23. | |
7000 years' time, they will look back at things, what will they say, | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
Article 50, perhaps, they will look at that. What is the wisest thing | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
you have ever come across? Just an example from the marvellous books | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
and the inspiring books from your faith? Point are listeners... I am | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
on the rage again, our listeners... Viewers to something? Never was | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
there a time that I never existed, never will there be a time that I | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
ceased to exist. If I have any fears about loss and gain, I should feel | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
should. My loss and gain might be external, but my inner experience | :55:05. | :55:13. | |
does not have too loose and gain. It is interesting... Never has there | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
been a time that I did not exist, never will there be a time that I | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
ceased to exist. I disagree, there was a time when I did not exist and | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
I will cease to exist in a couple of decades. I was at a place in | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
Hampshire just over 1000 years old, I reflected on the millennium of | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
people who had crossed that threshold, their wishes and dreams, | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
what their lives were like, it was a really interesting meditation but | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
there was nothing that they had to tell me about living today, there | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
was no particular wisdom that they offered me. The thing that worries | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
me about the wisdom of the ancients, because I think we have to learn | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
from history and the ancients, but there was an awful lot of stupid | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
ancient people as well. LAUGHTER | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
We tend to pick the bits that we like and discard the others, we | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
don't hear about Socrates' next-door neighbour, we hear about Socrates. | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
Mozart and Salieri. In the debate today we have heard many things that | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
sound like papering over the cracks to me. That was a phrase introduced | :56:18. | :56:25. | |
to us because landlords rented out apartments, they literally papered | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
over the cracks. It is about the human condition. I think one of the | :56:29. | :56:36. | |
things about wisdom that is underrated as collective wisdom. | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
Often how it is viewed, whether ancient or present day, it is viewed | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
in a very individualistic way. I am based at a women's centre, it is | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
very collective, our organisation, and I am struck every day of my life | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
how much more valuable and clarifying it is to be in that kind | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
of collective environment, and I think the hierarchy has been | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
throughout society really undermines us getting clarity on our lives and | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
any kind of wisdom. There is an awful lot of ancient | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
wisdom but an awful lot of ancient golf. We want today to be extremely | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
sceptical and nervous about fake news -- there is also a lot of | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
ancient guff. It is not just fake news, we had to be nervous about | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
fake wisdom, there is an awful lot of it about. That is why it is up to | :57:31. | :57:38. | |
you to find out. Fake wisdom? If you change the word religion for | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
philosophy then I think a lot more of this becomes philosophy. People | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
get uptight about religion. Ira member George Bush being asked to | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
was his favourite philosopher, he was ridiculed for saying Jesus | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
Christ. But take Christianity out of what Jesus Christ is said to have | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
said and there is brilliant stuff the social order, being nice to each | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
other, living as you would hope to. Call it philosophy and not religion, | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
everybody is cool. Ehmer? If you put any of these books on the shelf | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
under does not range you, it means nothing. And on that bombshell... It | :58:13. | :58:21. | |
is about your heart and mind changing. Like a bird on a wire, | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
like a drunken midnight choir, is good, Leonard Cohen. | :58:26. | :58:27. | |
As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter. | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
Next week we're in Cambridge, so do join us then. | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
Thank you for your contributions, I direct you to the hashtag #bbctbq, | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
it is always good reading. But for now, it's goodbye from | :58:42. | :58:43. | |
Brighton and have a great Sunday. | :58:44. | :58:48. |