Episode 13 The Big Questions


Episode 13

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and the ageless wisdom of ancient beliefs.

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Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.

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Today we're live from Patcham High School in Brighton.

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Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

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This Wednesday Mrs May pulled the trigger on Article 50,

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the UK's formal application to leave the European Union.

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Now the wrangling starts to decide the precise terms of Britain's

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divorce from the EU and of any future relationship between us

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The UK will no longer be a member of the European single market,

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that's a direct consequence of the Leave side

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But Mrs May has also ruled out a so-called "soft" Brexit,

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where the UK would have access to the European Economic Area,

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just as Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein do in return

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for accepting freedom of movement, agreeing to play by the EU's rules

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Mrs May is opting for a "hard" Brexit, a "clean" one,

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a "real" one some would say, arguing this fits with Vote Leave's

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mantra of "take back control" and is the only way to halt freedom

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of movement from EU countries into the UK.

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But the Referendum did not ask the British people if they wanted

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The options posed were just leave or remain in the European Union.

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And the Conservative Party's manifesto, on which it was elected

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in 2015, as well as promising the right to vote on EU membership,

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also made much of the advantages of the Single Market to the UK:

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"Our commitment to you", it said, is to "reclaim power from Brussels"

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and "safeguard British interests in the Single Market".

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"We are clear about what we want from Europe," it went on,

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Yes to working together when we are stronger

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Does Mrs May have a mandate for a hard Brexit?

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Lucy? You worked with the stronger in Europe campaign. There you are.

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People voted to leave. For Brexit. Deal with it. As you say, they did

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vote to leave but the question on the ballot paper was do you want to

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remain or leave, not where do you want to go after so I think there is

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not a mandate for any kind of Brexit because the terms were not part of

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the referendum campaign. If you asked a lot of different Leave

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campaigners they set out a lot of different visions, some said let's

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stay in the single market and others said let's leave, if you asked a lot

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of people who voted to leave, if they were clear it meant leaving the

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single market and the customs unit, the potential issues which would

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come with that, would people be clear that is what they voted for? I

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don't think so. Matt, do you want another referendum? I think that is

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immaterial, I think it would be wise if we decided that Britain was

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hurtling off a cliff edge it would be nice to have the idea that we

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could apply the brakes. I do not understand the argument which is

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currently going about messages about enemies with them, the front page of

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the Daily Mail, the hard right of the Tory party is debate is over,

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democracy is a point of singularity never to be revisited after the 23rd

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of June. We know that democratic vote, I except many good reasons

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people voted why the dead... A lot of people voted on the basis of lies

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and misinformation and duplicity. I think once we know what the reality

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is and the consequences it would be entirely sensible and democratic for

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people to have an option to have a say again, either by referendum or

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general election. APPLAUSE What about this business of people

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voting on the basis of lies, do you think that is patronising? I think

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incredibly so, when people talk about people lying, what they talk

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about is the perceived gullibility of the public, thinking the public

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were duped into doing this. I think that is the underlying message, the

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idea that the belief in the Roxy is so strong they want to ask us again

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to get the right answer next time is completely undemocratic. Is there a

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mandate for hard Brexit, it's the biggest democratic mandate in

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British political history, people voted with their eyes wide open...

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52-48. That is how democracy works. If the question was about leaving

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the single market what do you think the answer would have been? It was

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clear, both sides told us it would mean leaving the single market. The

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principle that laws that govern this country should be made in this

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country, self-determination, you cannot have that within the single

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market. I will tell you where the condescension and patronising

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element of this is coming is from the people who are telling British

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people to shut up and put up, we have voted, move on. You did not

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shut up and put up after 1975 when he lost the first referendum. This

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is not the first one, it is the second. People have a right to

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debate and dissent and it's so condescending of three is made to

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pretend there is such a thing of the will of the British people. How long

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until we get the right answer? I think we are, I am against

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referendums, but generally speaking these are hugely complex issues and

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I don't feel qualified to have a say and I do not feel the confidence the

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British public knew what they were getting into. We are going to hear

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about the economy, nobody knows, that is the truth, nobody knows how

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this will play out so I argue when we do now let's have the chance to

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say again. Tom we might not know how this plays out for an awfully long

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time, that is the thing. Young people voted overwhelmingly to stay,

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73% of 18-24 -year-olds, this is about our children and grandchildren

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as well. Is there a mandate for Theresa May for those who will be

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alive when the true effects of this hit them? In terms of Brexit, it is

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a gift to young people whether they realise it or not. You have the

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chance to take part in a real democracy where you can determine

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the future of society. They should be dancing in the street. I think

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when it comes down, the point I want to make, is people talk about young

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people and Scotland and effectively it's an attempt to break up the vote

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and the electorate which is not how majoritarian democracy works. You

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see it when people talk about 40% voting remain, it's the equivalent

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of having a general election next week, the Conservatives win 70% and

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Theresa May says we will run the country five days a week, Jeremy

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Corbyn can have it on the weekend. I can see from your body language you

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do not like what you are hearing. No, I think the point about the

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Leave campaign was they had so many different positions, it was not at

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all clear we would definitely leave the single market. Does Theresa May

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have a mandate for the Brexit she is pushing through? No, there was no

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mandate because of that lack of clarity. It was not fought on

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specific terms, this is what it will look like. If you ask the leader of

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the Leave campaign, they had to get people over the line, they had to

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get people to vote to Leave. The rest of it is up to the politicians.

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That is what is disappointing for people like me who were on the

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Remain campaign and I cleared about what happens to the future of this

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country, what does the deal look like, how do we make sure trade is

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as free and frictionless as it was and nobody had a clear answer during

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the campaign and nobody does now either. There is no mandate because

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there was not that clarity. We are going to go to the audience, so many

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hands, that is what we like to see, those people who allegedly did not

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know what they were voting for. People who did not understand it.

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Let's investigate some of that. There is a moral and ethical debate

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about having a mandate and a lot of people Mark Littlewood, Ipsos Mori

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polling says 33% voted to leave because of immigration. David Davis

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said this week immigration may go up. You have a certain criteria as

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to who you would allow into the country without questions, who would

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that be? I would change the system so if you had a job offer of say

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?50,000 it's a decent paying job and we would be confident you will be a

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net contributor to the tax system. You are definitely in. 50,000?

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50,000. If it is a lower level, an average wage, you can come in but

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you might not qualify for the benefits the indigenous population

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qualify for. No housing benefit until you have contributed such and

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such in income tax, you might only be able to access the NHS and tell

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you contribute... What about all these different industries,

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agriculture, hotels, catering, about them? They would fit in the second

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category, as long as these people are coming in without being a net

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drain, I am liberal on immigration. In an ideal world I would have

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audits but we do not live in an ideal world. To get the debate back

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on track we have to address peoples concerns and concerns are whether

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there is a drain on public services. There is an easy way to solve that,

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if you are coming in with loads of money and paying huge of tax you can

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have services, but if you're coming in with less your qualifications for

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benefits will not start immediately. That's not an immigration policy you

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can have as a member of the EU but you can outside. Yeah. You looked

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exasperated. I am exasperated by the ideology which is playing out. What

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sort of ideology is it? Is it hard right? It feels hard right to me. I

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think it's a message the right-wing press has been pushing for ten

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years, the Daily Mail has been this Pavlovian experiment about

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migration, it is a net benefit to this country. When I hear things

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about the categorisation, ?50,000 you are in, ?25,000 you are in but

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you cannot see a GP, that does not seem very British to me, it is not

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the values I signed up to as a British person. I think we live in

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an open society and this is the split, we have seen a move away from

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the traditional spectrum to different attitudes of open to

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Europe, open to globalisation is. Cultural attitudes and sentimental

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attitudes. The communities who voted to leave in the greatest numbers are

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the most fragile in our nation. In the north-east were they voted to

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leave in great numbers their economy is most fragile. In the South East

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in London it will be fine. So the people who voted for at most will

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the most? They will suffer the most. Does Theresa May have a mandate for

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a hard Brexit, a real Brexit, whatever you want to call it? I

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think it boils down to two Basic questions, first of all is the vote

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of the majority, if it is a simple majority, enough to enforce such a

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thing as Brexit and put it on a whole country even though 45% of the

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voters did not go for it. 40% did not go for it, what Tom was saying,

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and majority system. My question would be if democracy should work

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that way, then it is a tyranny of the majority. The other thing is

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when it comes to if there is a mandate, if there is enough

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information and we have to deal with the post-truth error and

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misinformation which has been spread all over the country regarding the

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question. All that money for the health service we always hear about.

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Anyone else? Quick point. The gentleman talks about the points

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system which already exists for International so there is tier one,

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tear two, that can be adjusted and modified to the European system as

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well. For investors, workers, law skills, medium skills, higher

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skills. Does Theresa May have a mandate? I think so. Anyone else? I

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believe Theresa May does have a mandate for it because the majority

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of us who were voting for Leave voted on the basis of two things,

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one that would be controlled migration, the second was that we

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would trade with the whole world and trading with the whole world means

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just that, it does not mean trading with European Union exclusively. We

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can make a deal with the European Union, they need us as much as we

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need them. Why can't we have a deal with Australia, Canada, other

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countries we used to have a deal with? If I can add one thing, as you

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can hear from my accent I am European, I was born in the Czech

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Republic and I believe that the idea of great Europe is wonderful but

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it's not enforceable because people are doing things for their own

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benefit, for their own mandate and I feel a lot of people here who are

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saying we should have left European Union, those people don't have

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enough faith in their own British culture.

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Do we have faith in... Let me put this to you, do we have faith in the

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people who are leading the negotiations? We saw the Article 50,

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some people are saying they forgot to mention Gibraltar, they forgot to

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mention the other land border. Oh, dear! Oops! Some people are saying,

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well, we need the very best calibre of negotiating. How much faith do

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you have in David Davies and Liam Fox and Boris Johnson? This

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Government had to change its Budget after three days. Do you think we

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have the best people? I think we should remain sceptical, shall we

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say? The most important period country has faced the decades. We

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should hope that politicians make sure they have the right people in

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the room to be able to do this. What is really striking about the Brexit

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vote is you have this huge radical progressive blow for democracy,

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which is completely against what the leaders of the political class

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wanted. The two most powerful politicians in this country

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campaigned for Remain and are probably shocked they had to deal

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with this. We have duties this out in the long-term. We voted against

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technocracy and it is left for technocrats to deal with this.

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Article 50 was passing through both the House of Commons and the

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unelected House of Lords, and despite the fact that the vast

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majority of the people backed Remain, they rolled over in the face

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of the democratic mandate, the weight of that was really bearing on

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their backs, that is positive, we need to make sure the negotiations

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are completed properly and that they uphold what the 17.4 million people

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voted for. There is a very interesting

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development, this mantra, that is almost hypnotic mantra of take back

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control. We have never had less controlled. We saw all the party

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poppers going from the Leave campaign, Independence Day at all of

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that and then Donald Tusk said, sorry, it will not work like that

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and you are one against 27. When we were arguing with Spain about

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Gibraltar it was as versus Spain, in the future it will be us versus 27

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EU member states. Much, much weaker. Margaret Thatcher knew it was to be

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-- was better to be arguing take -- case at the table than outside the

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table. You can't waive your handbag at an empty chair. There is not even

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an empty chair, there is nothing. Double the distance, half the trade,

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that is the basic rule. We're talking about possibly WTO tariffs

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with our neighbours 20 miles across the Channel in return for which we

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have a spurious idea free trade... You want to see what is on the table

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and want another referendum? If I put an offer in on a house and it

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turns out to be sitting on a sinkhole, I want the opportunity to

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tear up the contract. The whole nation needs a psychotherapist.

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Never mind a group hug. We have got one! We have a psychotherapist. Do

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you think people were stupid? Were they bamboozled and misled? It is

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not what I think, the evidence is very clear they were misled. Mob

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rule is a well-known phenomenon, people follow the mob. When the

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Liverpool eight was destroyed, uprising, it does not that was

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right. It is hardly a mob uprising. This is not the equivalent of a mob,

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it was a ballot. This is what democracy is. They were asked in the

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ballot whether we should leave or remain in the European Union. The

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people who campaigned to leave were not the people who would deliver

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Brexit. They were completely independent group. I am interested

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in the idea that some people may be eligible to come to Britain earning

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less than ?50,000 on certain conditions. They won't have access

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to A, for instance. I tell you what, they can work in A, they can

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nurse Bacon Doctor... APPLAUSE

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-- they can nurse, and they can doctor. Tom, you are in your 20s,

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the disproportionate amount of people over the age of 65 who voted

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for Brexit are not the people who will be around, with every respect,

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to see the long-term consequences for the country. I dare say it is a

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very convenient argument to try to undermine the vote. It involves us

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all and everyone should vote on an equal basis, that is the great thing

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about democracy, take it or leave it. Over the last couple of months

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you have seen the anti-democratic comment, which I always believed was

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there but never really saw up close, you hear phrases like mob rule, the

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tyranny of the majority. It is incredible. Look at the derision

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poured upon anybody who questions it in some of the papers. They are

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called enemies of the people and all sorts. I want to talk about the

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Leave boaters in relation to this. Since the Brexit vote we have been

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caught racist, stupid, xenophobic, we did not know what we were voting

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for, various schemes were cooked up to try to stop this from happening

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and we got angry and were referred to as the mob. If anyone has been

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derided, and mind, told they are reckless or stupid, it is the people

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who voted Brexit in the first place. APPLAUSE

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Thank you very much. If you have something to say

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about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

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and follow the link to where you can We're also debating live this

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morning in Brighton: Has the time come to

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decriminalise sex work? And, do we underestimate

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the wisdom of the ancients? Get tweeting or emailing on those

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topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may have

:21:58.:22:00.

about the programme. There has been much discussion

:22:01.:22:05.

in recent years, including on The Big Questions,

:22:06.:22:07.

of the so-called Nordic model of dealing with the sex industry,

:22:08.:22:10.

where the clients may be charged with an offence but the sellers of

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sex are not acting against the law. Indeed, the SNP has adopted this

:22:15.:22:19.

system as one of its policies. But the Greens and the Lib-Dems have

:22:20.:22:23.

long argued for a different way. They want to decriminalise

:22:24.:22:27.

sex work altogether. And the Lib Dems want to quash any

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historical convictions for prostitution or kerb-crawling,

:22:31.:22:34.

for instance, and to categorise any future crimes against sex

:22:35.:22:37.

workers as hate crimes. This would mean it would no longer

:22:38.:22:43.

be an offence for a man or woman But it would be an offence

:22:44.:22:47.

to treat someone differently Has the time come to

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decriminalise sex work? Clear multidimensional is to this,

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let's start with the moral one, the premise that it is wrong to sell

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sex. We will come to Tanya is well -- as well, first, and Nikki Adams

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from The English Collective Of Prostitutes. Where are you? I have

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got you. What about this notion that the morale of the of the law in

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forms what happens, or the law makes a judgment about plurality? Is it

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wrong to sell sex? First ball, I absolutely do not think it is

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immoral to sell sex, but in terms of that role of the law, the law

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clearly has an influence on morale tea, on social attitudes, but that

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should not be the primary function of the criminal law. Those of us

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that advocate decriminalisation are interested in

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safety, people selling sex? How do we reduce the harm associated with

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that practice. Which we will come to, and I want to talk about the

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premise of whether it is immoral to do it? What would you like on it

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too? We should not single it out as more immoral than any other form of

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labour. Such as? Whatever job you do, nursing, which might involve

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quite intimate physical contact, lots of physical labour. All of the

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jobs we do involve using our bodies and minds. I don't think sexual

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labour is somehow more immoral than any other thing. I think there are

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lots of things that are immoral but are not criminal. Cheating on your

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spouse, for example, most of us would probably agree it is immoral

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but that does not mean criminal law is a way to address that. Nikki? The

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moral framework of it, first all? Some people would say government

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sell horrendous arms which kill thousands of people to awful

:25:01.:25:06.

regimes, that is legal. That is a good point in terms of comparing it

:25:07.:25:11.

to other activities, but it also depends on your value system and

:25:12.:25:15.

some of us would definitely say that the poverty that means that sex work

:25:16.:25:20.

is one of the best options compared to other forms of employment is the

:25:21.:25:25.

real in morale Oti, that should be urgently addressed.

:25:26.:25:28.

APPLAUSE We are living in a time when many of

:25:29.:25:32.

the Government policies are increasing the levels of sex work.

:25:33.:25:37.

Levels of prostitution, particularly for women, particularly for mothers.

:25:38.:25:41.

There is a lot of evidence from the North of England that benefits

:25:42.:25:46.

anxious, for example, have led to a 166% increase in prostitution in

:25:47.:25:51.

Sheffield. If people want to get hot under the collar about injustice and

:25:52.:25:56.

in morale Oti, let's tackle that. If you are serious about trying to

:25:57.:25:59.

reduce prostitution, that would be a good way to start. Dr Heather

:26:00.:26:07.

Brunskell-Evans, just on this point that we sell arms to dangerous

:26:08.:26:12.

regimes, the government prop bets from the sale of dangerous drugs

:26:13.:26:15.

like alcohol and tobacco, what is it about the morale at its sex being

:26:16.:26:20.

transactional that you believe is wrong? Is it inevitably

:26:21.:26:24.

exploitative? I think it is inevitably exploitative but I do not

:26:25.:26:28.

think it is a moral of people to sell sex. I think the morality is in

:26:29.:26:36.

stigmatising people who sell sex, largely it is not an equal

:26:37.:26:41.

opportunity, it is who sell sex and men who buy. Since the

:26:42.:26:47.

industrialisation of prostitution from the Victorian period, women

:26:48.:26:54.

have been really stigmatised, it is women who are largely in the lower

:26:55.:26:59.

socioeconomic category who do sell sex, and they should not be

:27:00.:27:05.

stigmatised. I think it is a slur on our society that we still sick --

:27:06.:27:09.

stigmatise people. Decriminalising the act of selling sex, would that

:27:10.:27:15.

lessen the stigma or do you believe the way ahead is to criminalise

:27:16.:27:21.

those who buy sex? Which is the best system which would make people

:27:22.:27:26.

safer? This is a programme about morality, and I think the way in

:27:27.:27:30.

order to address the immorality of the exploitation of women through

:27:31.:27:38.

prostitution and the violence and the murder which is inevitably

:27:39.:27:43.

attached to it is to criminalise the buyers. The problem with this

:27:44.:27:48.

discussion is we tend to focus on the women, it is important now we

:27:49.:27:55.

are in the 21st-century, we should start placing the ways in which we

:27:56.:27:58.

stigmatise women into the context that it is men who are buying it. If

:27:59.:28:03.

men did not make the demand there would be no market for the selling.

:28:04.:28:09.

APPLAUSE This is a very progressive point of

:28:10.:28:15.

view that my position holds, because it is not about bringing more laws,

:28:16.:28:24.

we have enough laws. But the law has a normative function, it has a

:28:25.:28:28.

punitive function but it also has a normative function. The law to

:28:29.:28:34.

criminalise the buyers means that eventually we would change our value

:28:35.:28:40.

system around and make its problematic for men to buy sex from

:28:41.:28:44.

women who they don't know, they don't know whether they have been

:28:45.:28:49.

trafficked... That is a really interesting point, to criminalise

:28:50.:28:54.

the buyers, Niki, is there a danger that thereby you are making it

:28:55.:28:59.

disproportionately people who do not care about the risks of being

:29:00.:29:05.

criminalised? Maybe more violent people? It is a massively dangerous

:29:06.:29:10.

thing to do. At the moment the law forces sex workers to work in very

:29:11.:29:15.

risky situations, you are working on the street, running from the police,

:29:16.:29:19.

you can't work together with others from premises, which is at least ten

:29:20.:29:24.

times safer than on the street. If you criminalise clients, clients

:29:25.:29:27.

insist on being anonymous, you cannot screen them in the same way.

:29:28.:29:32.

In Sweden, where they brought in the Nordic model, sex workers complained

:29:33.:29:44.

that first of all it has not meant they are to criminalised, they still

:29:45.:29:48.

suffer under the law and are prosecuted if they set up working

:29:49.:29:50.

with another woman from premises. Also the stigma and two crewmen --

:29:51.:29:53.

and criminal eyes Asian has got much worse. Laura Lee is doing a legal

:29:54.:29:56.

case and has made that point, since the law has changed in Northern

:29:57.:29:59.

Ireland, clients will not call you from their mobile phone any more.

:30:00.:30:03.

They will call you from a hotel phone because they are determined to

:30:04.:30:07.

be anonymous. Watch it be the priority is to listen to what sex

:30:08.:30:11.

workers are saying, that improves their own safety. We work very hard

:30:12.:30:16.

to keep ourselves safe. We try to work with other people and often

:30:17.:30:21.

risk being prosecuted for working together and any of the criminal law

:30:22.:30:27.

is sabotaging those impacts. Do you want to stop the injury? --

:30:28.:30:31.

industry? I do. Can we explore that a bit

:30:32.:30:45.

more, you have enormously important experience in Ipswich where five

:30:46.:30:49.

prostitutes were killed, you have help women get out of prostitution

:30:50.:30:53.

and have done amazing things. Is this an industry which can ever be

:30:54.:30:58.

stopped? Is it not down to the basic sexual desires, there will always be

:30:59.:31:10.

a demand? That's quite a complex question isn't it. That's fine! In

:31:11.:31:23.

Ipswich we followed more or less the Nordic model. Criminalising the

:31:24.:31:31.

buyer. Yes, I agree that as it stands the law is not perfect and

:31:32.:31:34.

could be improved in terms of the safety of women. Who are operating

:31:35.:31:42.

at the moment. But in Ipswich we chose not to criminalise the women

:31:43.:31:46.

and we did not prosecute any women during the whole of the five years I

:31:47.:31:53.

was involved and the men were identified. We are talking about

:31:54.:31:59.

street work to start with. The men were identified and letters were

:32:00.:32:04.

sent to them. Shamed effectively? Privately shamed or maybe if the

:32:05.:32:12.

letter landed on the kitchen table where somebody, a wife someone did

:32:13.:32:16.

not know this was happening, maybe there were shamed. But not publicly.

:32:17.:32:25.

And, but at the same time of course, it was absolutely essential to have

:32:26.:32:30.

the services in place for women so we were not abandoning the women, we

:32:31.:32:35.

were there to help them out of prostitution. And when we worked

:32:36.:32:41.

with them we had police officers who knew them very well and who

:32:42.:32:45.

contacted them. When we worked with them they were very keen, most of

:32:46.:32:52.

them, the majority of them, I would say 98%, wanted exit from

:32:53.:33:02.

prostitution. I agree that poverty drives women into prostitution and

:33:03.:33:06.

the state has a responsibility to make sure women are not forced

:33:07.:33:13.

through poverty to act in that way. But we help these women off the

:33:14.:33:20.

streets. Fantastic work... I will come to you in a minute... What

:33:21.:33:28.

Helen said about out of prostitution, why wouldn't you, that

:33:29.:33:32.

focuses us on the question of is it inevitably exploitative? Some people

:33:33.:33:39.

are nodding, can I ask you what you would like to say? OK, so, I would

:33:40.:33:46.

like to use an exercise that a survivor took me through and this is

:33:47.:33:49.

for people in the audience to look around and look at the men around

:33:50.:33:57.

you, she said look at the men around you. Imagine yourself having to be

:33:58.:34:03.

always, half of the men, imagine women and men here in the audience,

:34:04.:34:07.

you need to be with half of the men here in the audience regardless of

:34:08.:34:11.

what you feel about them one day and the second half the next day and

:34:12.:34:15.

these men can do to you whatever they want, call whatever may may

:34:16.:34:22.

want... That is not true... Whatever they want because they paid money

:34:23.:34:29.

and that is what prostitution is. Is it always exploitative? Is it very

:34:30.:34:40.

often? Of course it is. The big percentage of women that came to

:34:41.:34:44.

prostitution after being sexually abused in childhood, the entrance to

:34:45.:34:54.

prostitution from age 14... No... This is not a student graduating,

:34:55.:34:58.

having a Ph.D. And thinking shall I go into my career or? These are

:34:59.:35:05.

women that have no other choice... Anyone else? Arguably you get two

:35:06.:35:15.

ends of the scale with sex work, you get the ones who are very pure and

:35:16.:35:25.

then you get the ones which can pay millions, like sports stars... Be

:35:26.:35:31.

careful of naming names! Football stars and things that have been

:35:32.:35:35.

accused of using prostitutes. Arguably those six workers are in

:35:36.:35:44.

the industry to make money and it is their choice. Do you believe it is a

:35:45.:35:51.

choice Mark Littlewood? That has to be how you start, it is a choice but

:35:52.:35:57.

we should not say it is always exploitative. We trust adults to

:35:58.:36:02.

engage in consensual activities of all sorts and we should assume this

:36:03.:36:06.

is consensual unless there is a specific evidence. Even if you find

:36:07.:36:14.

sex work or prostitution this tasteful, there is a clear rule, if

:36:15.:36:18.

you force things underground they get worse. I think you have to look

:36:19.:36:27.

at it in the context of other jobs, you have this range of experience,

:36:28.:36:32.

some people like their jobs, most people hate them, 60% of British

:36:33.:36:35.

workers dislike their jobs and would prefer to be doing something else

:36:36.:36:40.

and it is probably the same sex workers. It's not true, the figures

:36:41.:36:46.

about the high levels of abuse, the only way people are able to put that

:36:47.:36:49.

forward is they do not compare, they do not ask other people, they do not

:36:50.:36:54.

ask the nurses or factory workers how many were abused as children, it

:36:55.:36:59.

is only sex workers who are asked that question. The determining thing

:37:00.:37:04.

has to be safety. At the moment women in our group are being

:37:05.:37:08.

prosecuted when they come forward to report violence and that has to

:37:09.:37:13.

stop. Decriminalising has been shown to work where you can transform the

:37:14.:37:16.

relationship with the police so you can demand protection. Quick

:37:17.:37:23.

question from the audience. I trained as a nurse and I have

:37:24.:37:29.

experience working as a nurse, I have been shouted at and spat at and

:37:30.:37:32.

I have had various forms of excrement thrown at me, nobody tried

:37:33.:37:37.

to penetrate me because I was at work and certainly not five, six,

:37:38.:37:41.

seven different people I did not know. Who are you to say that one is

:37:42.:37:49.

better than the other? I would prefer to be doing sex work than

:37:50.:37:52.

other forms of work, I do not want to be an Arms trade and I would not

:37:53.:37:59.

want my daughter to be. We have a strange relationship with sex in the

:38:00.:38:02.

UK and the Western world and that is part of the root of this. A number

:38:03.:38:07.

of points have come up today one I want to make which has not been made

:38:08.:38:10.

is that over 10% of prostitutes in the UK are not women, 10% are men

:38:11.:38:16.

and transsexuals, this is not purely a women's issue although I accept

:38:17.:38:22.

the argument about poverty and infrastructure. I looked at American

:38:23.:38:26.

research asking prostitutes why they were doing it and the most common

:38:27.:38:30.

answer was they liked it. There is an assumption... That was a

:38:31.:38:37.

particular piece of research but we make an assumption, those of us who

:38:38.:38:42.

choose not to be prostitutes make value judgments about prostitutes

:38:43.:38:46.

which I do not think are merited. One other point, I work in mental

:38:47.:38:51.

health... Mental health we look at stigma and marginalisation, the

:38:52.:38:57.

answer we have come out with is talk about it, the answer to get away

:38:58.:39:02.

from stigma is to talk to others. If we stigmatise and marginalise sex

:39:03.:39:06.

work people will not talk about it and cannot get the help and support

:39:07.:39:11.

they need. The lady at the back, when he said the main reason is

:39:12.:39:16.

because I like it your hand shot up, is that why? Any woman, man or

:39:17.:39:21.

anything else who wants to sell their body and enjoys it should be

:39:22.:39:25.

allowed to, first of all. The question I have is why do we breed a

:39:26.:39:31.

culture, why do we have a society which breeds the need and

:39:32.:39:35.

desperation to turn to sex work, not just prostitution. Every society in

:39:36.:39:43.

the history of humanity. You would not believe the number of students

:39:44.:39:49.

who consider stripping, sugaring, prostitution, various forms of sex

:39:50.:39:54.

work. It is not just prostitution. The question I have is why do we

:39:55.:39:58.

breed a culture where people feel they are so desperate that they need

:39:59.:40:04.

to and have no other options. Do you want to come back on that Helen? I

:40:05.:40:09.

would like to come back on many of these points. Sadly they do not have

:40:10.:40:13.

time but that was a powerful point from the lady. The lady was saying

:40:14.:40:19.

that people should be allowed to sell their bodies in whichever

:40:20.:40:25.

format that is, pole dancing, prostitution, whatever. The Nordic

:40:26.:40:30.

model argues people should be allowed to sell their bodies in

:40:31.:40:35.

whichever form they want to. But not allowed to buy sex? Absolutely. I

:40:36.:40:41.

think, of course when men are involved in prostitution, as

:40:42.:40:48.

prostituted people, the majority of the people who buy sex are men.

:40:49.:40:55.

There are men who sell sex as well. The person at the back indicated

:40:56.:40:59.

that students are selling sex in one form or another. It is largely

:41:00.:41:03.

female students, not male students so we had to come back to this as a

:41:04.:41:11.

gender issue. A structural issue of gender relations. In the time

:41:12.:41:17.

available, do forgive me, but you mentioned the Nordic model, and we

:41:18.:41:22.

have the model of New Zealand some people have called it,

:41:23.:41:24.

decriminalising it, the legalisation, people talk about

:41:25.:41:30.

parts of Germany and the Netherlands, forgive me for coming

:41:31.:41:34.

for Tanya as we close because you mentioned the Nordic model and she

:41:35.:41:38.

was from her body language and face saying this is never going to work

:41:39.:41:42.

and it is wrong, what is wrong with it? Criminalising people who buy

:41:43.:41:50.

sex? For many of the reasons Nikki already mentioned, it's the risk of

:41:51.:41:57.

safety to sex workers, if clients are commoner lysed have fewer

:41:58.:42:01.

clients. The once you have other one is not worried about breaking the

:42:02.:42:05.

law, you will have a lower income, you might have to have to agree to

:42:06.:42:08.

services you might otherwise not agree to. The Swedish model is

:42:09.:42:18.

extremely successful. No, their own research does not bear that out.

:42:19.:42:23.

Talking about how successful the Swedish model is, it has major --

:42:24.:42:32.

made it safer. It's extremely dangerous... THEY TALK OVER EACH

:42:33.:42:41.

OTHER Often have PTSD... We are going to have have to bring it to a

:42:42.:42:55.

close. Apologies, I wanted to pick up on the notion of the Swedish

:42:56.:43:00.

system, thank you all very much indeed. We are going to discuss

:43:01.:43:03.

wisdom. High time I think. You can join in all this

:43:04.:43:06.

morning's debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions

:43:07.:43:08.

and following the link Or you can tweet using

:43:09.:43:10.

the hashtag #bbctbq. about our last Big Question,

:43:11.:43:15.

too ? do we underestimate And if you'd like to apply to be

:43:16.:43:19.

in the audience at a future show you We're in Cambridge next week,

:43:20.:43:24.

then after a two week break for Easter and the London Marathon

:43:25.:43:28.

we're back from York on April 30th for two shows,

:43:29.:43:30.

the usual live edition in the morning and a pre-recorded

:43:31.:43:32.

special in the afternoon Then we're in Salford on May 14th

:43:33.:43:35.

also for two programmes. Spring is a very crowded season

:43:36.:43:43.

on the world's religious calendars. The Christian Easter was long

:43:44.:43:46.

preceded by the Pagan Ostara, when the Green Man god awakens

:43:47.:43:51.

from his winter sleep. Zoroastrians celebrate

:43:52.:43:53.

Jamsheedi Noruz, which dates back to the prophet Zarathushtra himself,

:43:54.:43:55.

3500 years ago in Ancient Persia. The Hindus fling paint

:43:56.:44:02.

at each other on Holi, to welcome the spring and celebrate

:44:03.:44:05.

Krishna, who was born Where mankind has lived,

:44:06.:44:08.

since ancient times there have also been complex,

:44:09.:44:13.

mystical and powerful And today their very longevity

:44:14.:44:15.

grants them additional power. Do we underestimate

:44:16.:44:21.

the wisdom of the ancients? Dr Chenta Kang, consultant

:44:22.:44:33.

psychiatrist, a Hindu priest, good morning. Let's knock something out

:44:34.:44:41.

of the park here, with ancient Scriptures, when people start

:44:42.:44:45.

arguing they prove science, it kind of discredits the religion because

:44:46.:44:49.

there are often some howlers as well, we should concentrate on the

:44:50.:44:54.

wisdom, human nature, how we live and think and behave towards each

:44:55.:44:58.

other and those little epithets. Tell us about the Bhagavad-Gita?

:44:59.:45:08.

Its message is simple and similar to message of others, the message of

:45:09.:45:16.

the agents is connect with that part of yourself that is separate from

:45:17.:45:20.

what society imposes on that. Then we can connect with each other.

:45:21.:45:26.

Inequality on that level is not about financial differences,

:45:27.:45:29.

position, power, name and fame, we connect more deeply because we find

:45:30.:45:36.

stillness. In a being, away from the madness and the mania of the world?

:45:37.:45:42.

Some of our biggest obstacles are our own mind. It gets in the way of

:45:43.:45:46.

proper behaviour and proper thinking. We don't take time and

:45:47.:45:57.

space to filter and sift to that. It does not matter if we are a

:45:58.:46:01.

politician or taking care of our family, we will be tripped up. All

:46:02.:46:07.

this was written by men for men? It was not. Chapter one, verse 40 of

:46:08.:46:16.

Bhagavad-Gita, oh, Krishna, descendant of racially, when

:46:17.:46:19.

unrighteousness prevails then the women of the family become degraded.

:46:20.:46:24.

When they become degraded then undesirable offspring is a result.

:46:25.:46:32.

That is quite simple... It is not wisdom, it is misogyny. It is saying

:46:33.:46:37.

that if you do not look after women... Women have a lot of power

:46:38.:46:41.

in society, they are the first teacher of the child, if you do not

:46:42.:46:45.

take care of them they become than rubble, than rubble women are taken

:46:46.:46:53.

advantage of, -- there becomes a Nowell, vulnerable women are taken

:46:54.:47:02.

advantage of. Some were men are -- women are manipulated. Undesirable

:47:03.:47:06.

offspring? If you get pregnant if you do not want to. Don't people

:47:07.:47:11.

have abortions because of undesirable offspring? That is not

:47:12.:47:14.

the wisdom the ancients are trying to give us, but they say that if you

:47:15.:47:18.

find the quiet and the stillness with a new, separate from the

:47:19.:47:21.

busyness around you, connect with each other, all the polls of

:47:22.:47:28.

society, the need to connect, we do not depend on the external to do

:47:29.:47:33.

that. With many texts it is a case that there is a certain cherry

:47:34.:47:38.

picking going on, I like that, I don't like that, I'll interpret that

:47:39.:47:43.

one in a certain way. Emma, were these texts written by men for men,

:47:44.:47:49.

should we be wary of that? I am not a historical expert but I believe

:47:50.:47:58.

they were primarily written by the Brahmin class, which was educated

:47:59.:48:02.

and had some respect given to them for their religious understanding,

:48:03.:48:04.

and I think usually the women at that time would not have been

:48:05.:48:08.

educated so lots of the texts probably would not have been

:48:09.:48:13.

available for them to study to the same degree? What about the wisdom

:48:14.:48:17.

of the ancients? There is certainly wisdom that that wisdom can arise in

:48:18.:48:23.

many places and any circumstances. Yes, ancient texts might inspire

:48:24.:48:28.

some people, but not others. Others might be inspired by seeing human

:48:29.:48:35.

suffering or connecting with nature or seeing a painting, spending time

:48:36.:48:39.

in meditation or reflection. I think wisdom can come in many different

:48:40.:48:43.

forms. I think the important thing is that somebody decides to seek

:48:44.:48:48.

wisdom with a human life and ask these important questions which

:48:49.:48:52.

define our capability as humans. That is the most important thing.

:48:53.:48:58.

And then there are many ways to find the wisdom. Professor of ancient

:48:59.:49:01.

history at the University Manchester, isn't it the case that

:49:02.:49:07.

if you had, I don't know, Bob Dylan lyric and you said you found it in

:49:08.:49:11.

an ancient book, you don't need to be a weatherman to know which way

:49:12.:49:15.

the wind blows, you saw it in an ancient book and you would go, oh,

:49:16.:49:21.

that is brilliant, that is the wisdom of the ancients! Ayew as King

:49:22.:49:26.

whether... We imbue it with too much significance it comes from hundreds

:49:27.:49:31.

of thousands of years ago, but you could see it on a Hallmark greetings

:49:32.:49:36.

cards. You had to give the ancients respect. People who lived and

:49:37.:49:40.

conditions far more brutal than those we live under, who did that in

:49:41.:49:50.

a surge -- in a surge that the other speakers are talking about, finding

:49:51.:49:54.

ideas that are worth living for and then managed to express them in a

:49:55.:49:59.

way... Maybe 2000 years from now we will still be singing Bob Dylan. I

:50:00.:50:04.

am not saying we won't. But in a sense it is like creating a time

:50:05.:50:11.

capsule, the message in a bottle... Message In A Bottle, that is another

:50:12.:50:19.

one! You send your ideas into the world. If people are still

:50:20.:50:22.

protecting and cherry chewing it and playing with it and arguing with it

:50:23.:50:33.

2000 years later... It means something. It is not so much that

:50:34.:50:38.

other people could not have had a similar idea, but we have to have a

:50:39.:50:42.

little bit of respect for the people... That is the interesting

:50:43.:50:46.

thing, to see humanity thousands of years ago trying to make sense of it

:50:47.:50:51.

all. Emma, isn't that the inspiring thing? Absolutely, but I think we

:50:52.:50:56.

need to bear in mind that when these texts were written, most of the

:50:57.:51:02.

population was involved in subsistence agriculture, they did

:51:03.:51:10.

not have the time, opportunity or Google to study, to reflect, to

:51:11.:51:16.

meditate. Despite the busyness of our lives now, many people now have

:51:17.:51:20.

far more choice over how they spend their day. I appreciate not

:51:21.:51:24.

everybody does, but I spend a lot of time in the Himalayas, in developing

:51:25.:51:30.

countries, in rural, agricultural villages where nobody has any time

:51:31.:51:34.

to reflect on meditate because they are planting potatoes and hoping it

:51:35.:51:40.

will rain or not rain. I think that now, particularly in our culture,

:51:41.:51:45.

many people have the opportunity to gather this past wisdom and look at

:51:46.:51:49.

their current lives and become extraordinary spiritual

:51:50.:51:51.

practitioners for the benefit of all.

:51:52.:51:55.

APPLAUSE The time comes when we have to stop

:51:56.:52:01.

planting the potatoes is what you are saying?

:52:02.:52:05.

We have that chance. I would disagree... We are having no

:52:06.:52:09.

disagreement on this programme, I am not having it! At the idea that

:52:10.:52:15.

modern people are somehow more able... I did not say that. In the

:52:16.:52:25.

ancient world, women and children in ancient should editions often lived

:52:26.:52:31.

in cultures that were, in a sense, very dominating of women and

:52:32.:52:36.

children. -- women and children in ancient cultures and traditions.

:52:37.:52:42.

Don't we have a glass ceiling now?! Women and children have always made

:52:43.:52:46.

their contribution and there have always been women's traditions

:52:47.:52:49.

handed down through the generations that have incredible value. When

:52:50.:52:54.

Emma made the point about she is not a historian but you agree that the

:52:55.:52:59.

books were written by men, for men, women were not educated, at the time

:53:00.:53:02.

the Bhagavad-Gita was spoken and written down, the other person that

:53:03.:53:07.

Christian was speaking to, that wife, she was a treasure at the King

:53:08.:53:12.

Dylan very educated. -- the other person that Krishna was speaking to.

:53:13.:53:22.

She was, but would her hundred thousand staff have been educated?

:53:23.:53:33.

That Downton Abbey! The point I am trying to make is that I do not

:53:34.:53:37.

think we over credit ancient wisdom, I think we go the opposite way and

:53:38.:53:42.

throw out the baby with the bath water. What happens is that religion

:53:43.:53:48.

and ancient wisdom get separated, spirituality is separated from

:53:49.:53:50.

religion. Religion is a vehicle to because jewel, to connect with the

:53:51.:53:56.

inner comedy part of ourselves. Because we always shining a

:53:57.:54:00.

spotlight on the negativity and the human mistakes with wisdom, people

:54:01.:54:03.

through the wisdom out and we need to stop living in such a polarised

:54:04.:54:09.

society where there is a factual, scientific way and then the

:54:10.:54:14.

wishy-washy faith and religious way. They go hand in hand. In 5000, 6000,

:54:15.:54:23.

7000 years' time, they will look back at things, what will they say,

:54:24.:54:27.

Article 50, perhaps, they will look at that. What is the wisest thing

:54:28.:54:34.

you have ever come across? Just an example from the marvellous books

:54:35.:54:41.

and the inspiring books from your faith? Point are listeners... I am

:54:42.:54:47.

on the rage again, our listeners... Viewers to something? Never was

:54:48.:54:54.

there a time that I never existed, never will there be a time that I

:54:55.:54:58.

ceased to exist. If I have any fears about loss and gain, I should feel

:54:59.:55:04.

should. My loss and gain might be external, but my inner experience

:55:05.:55:13.

does not have too loose and gain. It is interesting... Never has there

:55:14.:55:16.

been a time that I did not exist, never will there be a time that I

:55:17.:55:21.

ceased to exist. I disagree, there was a time when I did not exist and

:55:22.:55:25.

I will cease to exist in a couple of decades. I was at a place in

:55:26.:55:30.

Hampshire just over 1000 years old, I reflected on the millennium of

:55:31.:55:34.

people who had crossed that threshold, their wishes and dreams,

:55:35.:55:38.

what their lives were like, it was a really interesting meditation but

:55:39.:55:43.

there was nothing that they had to tell me about living today, there

:55:44.:55:46.

was no particular wisdom that they offered me. The thing that worries

:55:47.:55:50.

me about the wisdom of the ancients, because I think we have to learn

:55:51.:55:55.

from history and the ancients, but there was an awful lot of stupid

:55:56.:55:58.

ancient people as well. LAUGHTER

:55:59.:56:04.

We tend to pick the bits that we like and discard the others, we

:56:05.:56:09.

don't hear about Socrates' next-door neighbour, we hear about Socrates.

:56:10.:56:14.

Mozart and Salieri. In the debate today we have heard many things that

:56:15.:56:17.

sound like papering over the cracks to me. That was a phrase introduced

:56:18.:56:25.

to us because landlords rented out apartments, they literally papered

:56:26.:56:28.

over the cracks. It is about the human condition. I think one of the

:56:29.:56:36.

things about wisdom that is underrated as collective wisdom.

:56:37.:56:40.

Often how it is viewed, whether ancient or present day, it is viewed

:56:41.:56:44.

in a very individualistic way. I am based at a women's centre, it is

:56:45.:56:49.

very collective, our organisation, and I am struck every day of my life

:56:50.:56:55.

how much more valuable and clarifying it is to be in that kind

:56:56.:57:00.

of collective environment, and I think the hierarchy has been

:57:01.:57:05.

throughout society really undermines us getting clarity on our lives and

:57:06.:57:11.

any kind of wisdom. There is an awful lot of ancient

:57:12.:57:15.

wisdom but an awful lot of ancient golf. We want today to be extremely

:57:16.:57:22.

sceptical and nervous about fake news -- there is also a lot of

:57:23.:57:27.

ancient guff. It is not just fake news, we had to be nervous about

:57:28.:57:30.

fake wisdom, there is an awful lot of it about. That is why it is up to

:57:31.:57:38.

you to find out. Fake wisdom? If you change the word religion for

:57:39.:57:42.

philosophy then I think a lot more of this becomes philosophy. People

:57:43.:57:45.

get uptight about religion. Ira member George Bush being asked to

:57:46.:57:50.

was his favourite philosopher, he was ridiculed for saying Jesus

:57:51.:57:54.

Christ. But take Christianity out of what Jesus Christ is said to have

:57:55.:57:57.

said and there is brilliant stuff the social order, being nice to each

:57:58.:58:02.

other, living as you would hope to. Call it philosophy and not religion,

:58:03.:58:09.

everybody is cool. Ehmer? If you put any of these books on the shelf

:58:10.:58:12.

under does not range you, it means nothing. And on that bombshell... It

:58:13.:58:21.

is about your heart and mind changing. Like a bird on a wire,

:58:22.:58:25.

like a drunken midnight choir, is good, Leonard Cohen.

:58:26.:58:27.

As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.

:58:28.:58:30.

Next week we're in Cambridge, so do join us then.

:58:31.:58:36.

Thank you for your contributions, I direct you to the hashtag #bbctbq,

:58:37.:58:41.

it is always good reading. But for now, it's goodbye from

:58:42.:58:43.

Brighton and have a great Sunday.

:58:44.:58:48.

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