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Today on The Big Questions: Trade v human rights, | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
gender-neutral language, and what's Easter really about? | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
Today we're live from Netherhall School in Cambridge. | :00:11. | :00:30. | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
This week, Mrs May and her ministers have fanned out across globe | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
in search of new business for post-Brexit Britain | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
from customers outside the European Community. | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
The Prime Minister has been in Saudi Arabia, | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
her Chancellor has been in India, and Liam Fox has been telling | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
the president of the Philippines that we enjoy shared values. | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
Saudi Arabia treats women as second class citizens | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
and executes people for being gay or for not believing in God. | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
They've also been accused of war crimes for bombing | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
Yet Saudi Arabia is Britain's largest trading partner | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
And just the day before meeting the International Trade Secretary, | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
Liam Fox, Philippine President Duterte told an audience of young | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
school children he was angry and would kill people | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
Thousands have died since his election last year | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
And Duterte has said he doesn't give a BLEEP about human rights. | :01:27. | :01:36. | |
Should we trade with countries that abuse human rights? | :01:37. | :01:46. | |
Jordan, it is perfectly straightforward from a moral | :01:47. | :01:54. | |
perspective. We are doing business with a country killing thousands in | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
Yemen. Barbaric human rights records of torture, execution of games, | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
women cannot marry, they cannot travel, they cannot access higher | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
education without the permission of a man. Two women were detained and | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
72 days without charge in Saudi Arabia for driving. Why are we | :02:18. | :02:25. | |
dealing with these people? When you put it in those terms, it is not a | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
place I would want my daughter to spend time but it is also a | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
complicated set of relationships between governments. Trade is just | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
one of those levers. We have a defence and security arrangement | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
with Saudi Arabia and others, we share intelligence. The judgment | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
made by the authorities is that keeps us safer. If we look at the | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
economic arguments as well, in the UK, 140,000 jobs in the defence | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
industries exist in part because of our ability to trade overseas. | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
Directly, 14,004 Saudi Arabia. For some people, that is not important, | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
it is about the moral imperative, but in the complicated world we live | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
in, broader, systemic issues about relationships need to be taken | :03:21. | :03:28. | |
account of. Has a Ronan human rights -- has the human rights values we | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
hold made a difference in Saudi Arabia? It is very difficult to | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
tell. In the Middle East you tend to see a very conservative... This | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
change is clay seal. Yes, and it is very narrow, leadership. Just two | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
layers below you see young folk with Western values, we see more people | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
educated than we have seen in the West, just here in Cambridge there | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
are a number of Saudi graduates who are women. Andrew Smith, 140,000 | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
jobs. It is one of the most brutal, repressive regimes in the world, | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
utterly complicit in the destruction of Yemen. In the two years since | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
that began, the UK has sold ?3 billion of weapons. I have no doubt | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
that is what the Prime Minister was doing there. In terms of jobs, jobs | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
involving arms exports account for 0.2% of jobs in the economy. We do | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
not want to see mass unemployment, we want to see these skills put to | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
good use in good, productive, sustainable industries, not those | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
that depend on war and conflict to turn a profit. It is not just those | :04:46. | :04:53. | |
jobs, there are outer rings and outer rings beyond that of related | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
industries. The arms industry is a keystone industry, not just | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
components but technology and engineering beyond that. We've got | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
to use the right figures. According to the area of space -- Aerospace | :05:07. | :05:14. | |
groups it is 55,000 jobs. We need to use the right figure. That is only | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
one third of the figures used regularly by government which | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
includes procurement as well. In terms of the cost, we've got to | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
think about what message it sent out. The message it sends to the | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
Saudi regime was total support for its brutal rule. The message it sent | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
out to those in Saudi prisons, those being tortured for their beliefs, | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
was that their human rights do not matter. Isn't that the moral | :05:41. | :05:48. | |
message? You just carry on, we want your money. My understanding was she | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
was very robust, polite but robust in terms of her expectations in | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
relation to the broader relationship between the two governments. It is | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
important to remember that quite often this subject is projected as | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
dodgy salesmen selling arms. That is not true. This is a significant | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
government to government relationship, heavily controlled, | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
companies sell weapons to the British government and the British | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
government trade with countries. Financial services. Indeed. These | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
are very fine judgments, nuanced judgments. It is not nuanced when | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
you're thrown off a roof for being gay. Correct. I would not want my | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
daughter to spend significant time in Saudi Arabia and I have a lot of | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
respect for Andrew's position but this is a real world, complicated | :06:48. | :06:55. | |
set of problems. Can we get away from it being complicated? I've got | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
a degree, explain it to me. It is not complicated. We are selling | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
weapons to people who are using it to abuse human rights. It does not | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
matter how much money we make, I could make a lot of money as a hired | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
assassin, it does not make it all right. It is not complicated, it is | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
incredibly simple. Why are we letting have access to weapons when | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
they are going to kill innocent people with them? We need to stop. I | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
will be with you in a second. I want to bring Davies in. You are sitting | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
beside Kate, who has entered the fray. You can turn to your left. I'm | :07:33. | :07:43. | |
always on the left. Let me make a bold prediction and save the that a | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
majority of the people watching this programme get it, on the one hand, | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
these things are true, it is a very problematic country, but they | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
understand that on the other hand Britain has needs in the world, they | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
are very reality -based things around conflict, with the | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
intelligence sharing with the Saudis has saved lives, Saudi stability is | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
a factor in the Middle East at the same time as these grievous things | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
go on... Is that the same as saying, you used the phrase, Britain has her | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
needs. We were discussing prostitution on this programme a | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
couple of weeks ago. You may laugh but isn't there an analogy, you're | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
going to a brothel where women are being abused because you have your | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
needs. There is not an analogy at all because the country cannot deal | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
on the basis of the personal in the same way as you deal in | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
international affairs. The British government has shown a fantastic | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
example of this in action. Michael Gove cancelled a contract with the | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
Saudi prison system because it is a part of Saudi Arabia that is deeply | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
problematic and we should not engage in. The government still sells | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
weapons because Saudi Arabia does have an important need to fulfil in | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
the region. Therefore, we are in a relationship that is conducive. The | :09:14. | :09:24. | |
Saudi regime is committing war crimes and we know that for a fact. | :09:25. | :09:32. | |
The bombing in Yemen has resulted in thousands of deaths. It is actually | :09:33. | :09:43. | |
against the policy. The truth is, the UK has been providing military | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
support to the Saudi regime for years. It is not a phenomenon on | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
that is new. It has allowed these human rights abuses to continue. The | :09:53. | :10:01. | |
UK is just as complicit and that is why we need to totally reformulate | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
the way that the trade regime is imagining. If we don't sell it, | :10:06. | :10:13. | |
China would sell them. They care nothing of human rights. Do we not | :10:14. | :10:20. | |
have some kind of impact? The UK Government is showing that it cares | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
nothing about human rights by exporting these weapons to Saudi | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
Arabia and Israel. Like Israel? Indeed. Would you like -- would you | :10:32. | :10:42. | |
compare them? War crimes are war crimes and it should be prohibiting | :10:43. | :10:50. | |
the export of these weapons to countries committing war crimes. | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
That would lead us on to a massive debate and I want to acknowledge | :10:56. | :11:04. | |
that with our viewers at home. Last time we were on, we had that. But I | :11:05. | :11:15. | |
mark what you said with interest. A number of politicians who come to | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
hold the position of Secretary of State for Defence have said, I will | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
profoundly review the relationship we have with Saudi Arabia and we | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
will probably withdraw some of our licences. As soon as those | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
politicians from both sides of the debate have arrived in office | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
they've reviewed the relationships and kept it. That is a matter of | :11:37. | :11:45. | |
record. It is disingenuous. Part of the problem with arms trade is there | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
is so little transparency so that one of the things we've seen, there | :11:50. | :11:59. | |
is evidence of governments ministers knowing of war crimes being | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
committed and approving those exports anyway. We need | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
transparency. Who would you deal with? You mentioned Israel. Many | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
will argue it is a democracy. Other people have mentioned China. Maybe | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
we cannot trade with China. Beyond that, in terms of human rights | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
abuses, who else, who would you trade with? It is a question of how | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
we approach our trade relations with any country. Protection for workers, | :12:39. | :12:46. | |
human rights, instead of corporations, it is something we | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
have as a policy where we approach all of these things at the centre. | :12:53. | :13:03. | |
Did you have your hand up? Is there any evidence that trade sanctions | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
improve human rights in these countries? Not so much a question | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
but I am utterly shocked by the fact that we're still talking about | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
funding either regimes or trading with countries who have a really | :13:20. | :13:28. | |
horrible record of human rights, the key question is, a lot of countries, | :13:29. | :13:36. | |
we should move away from that discourse which is about needing | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
business, when we see how many people are displaced and the refugee | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
crisis we deal with nowadays, people lending at the bottom of the | :13:47. | :13:48. | |
Mediterranean Sea. Surely we've got to think carefully as to what sort | :13:49. | :13:56. | |
of world we want to live in. We should still export arms to | :13:57. | :14:05. | |
countries... We would be crying outrage but we are not crying out | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
rage long enough in my opinion. Anyone else? | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
Good morning. Quick point? We keep hearing about human rights | :14:15. | :14:23. | |
violations, but human rights according to which organisation? | :14:24. | :14:25. | |
Different countries have different understandings of what human rights | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
means. So you are saying there should be relativism and other | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
countries should have different human rights values? According to | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
what frameworks are we talking about human rights? International | :14:40. | :14:41. | |
humanitarian frameworks. Let's hear from that lady. We condemn children | :14:42. | :14:50. | |
who witness bullying and don't speak out. Providing weapons to bully | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
people and cause mass wars, we are just as bad as the children who | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
don't speak out. What is the strategic thinking behind having | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
this relationship? The one with Saudi Arabia. What some of the | :15:06. | :15:14. | |
people have been saying about war crimes is not correct. Look at it | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
like this. You want to stop some of the terrible things you see on your | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
television screens, about the Syrian civil war, whatever else. You don't | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
want to send your own troops to die to do it and you need allies. Allies | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
are not perfect. United Kingdom has had to fight against radical Islam | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
across the world with allies that are not perfect. Saudi Arabia is a | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
source of radical Islam. Absolutely. And there is the problem of duality | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
with one of the things they do in spreading ideology and the things | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
they do in providing a modicum of stability in the Middle East | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
fighting against the spread of the Iranian revolution in that way. But | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
at the end of the day unless you are willing to send your own troops to | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
go into all these different theatres, you are going to have to | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
work with allies that are not perfect. I am convinced that your | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
viewers understand that the morality that this country has and the west | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
as God, which is better, unquestionably better, the quest for | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
democracy and justice, has got to live in accordance with the | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
realities of a very imperfect world. -- the west has got. Saudi Arabia | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
does provide a modicum of stability in the Middle East. Do you provide | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
that -- do you buy that? It doesn't provide stability for journalists | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
who are tortured and it doesn't provide stability for women. Saudi | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
Arabia is one of the most oppressive regimes in the world. I want to come | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
back to the point about intelligence Schering. We are UN bound to share | :16:45. | :16:53. | |
intelligence with Saudi Arabia. If there was any suggestion from a | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
panel that Saudi Arabia would not share intelligence on the grounds | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
that they could not buy billions of pounds of weapons every year, and | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
they would knowingly allow terrorism to happen on the streets of London | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
because we were not selling them weapons, anyone who thinks anything | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
like that has a low opinion of the regime than I do. I just want to | :17:10. | :17:18. | |
move on to the Philippines. Roderigo du tout, Liam Fox said he shares our | :17:19. | :17:19. | |
values. -- President to Duterte. He has killed millions of | :17:20. | :17:39. | |
people. How does a mass murderer share our values? I don't think he | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
does but I do think that Liam Fox had a job to do in terms of forging | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
relationships and there is a very complicated reality in forging those | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
relationships. I personally don't think that Duterte shares our values | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
and that cannot be said to be the case. Why do we condemn people like | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
Robert Mugabe who are of no use to us but just as Venus? These are the | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
double standards that ruin our reputation across the world. That is | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
the problem. It is not double standards. It is strategic decisions | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
about the needs of this country and plurality. The audience might not | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
like it but the people in the country understand that we have | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
strategic needs and we want to bring them in unison with our values. One | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
man's double standard is another's strategic decision. Is this | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
complicated? Should we trade with countries? The answer it is a | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
separate discussion and we have got to be very careful as we enter the | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
post-Brexit world and we earn our place in the world that we don't | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
engage in a race to the bottom in the name of trade. But the broader | :18:43. | :18:50. | |
question is should we trade with countries that abuse human rights? I | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
used to be the correspondent in China, the four years, for the Daily | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
Telegraph. I covered lots of human rights abuses. The Nobel Peace Prize | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
laureate is still in jail in China. But when China opened up we made a | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
Faustian bargain. We agreed to trade with China and it has not delivered | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
the reforms that we hoped. But it has transformed lives in China, | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
trade. It is not that long ago. 1959 to 1961, 40 million Chinese died in | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
a famine. So if you look at it that way, trade has brought incredible | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
things. Environmental degradation but incredible benefits. Should we | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
trade with the United States? That country had a state sanctioned | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
torture programme in Guantanamo Bay. This is very complicated stuff. I | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
firmly believe that trade is not a panacea but it does bring real | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
benefits to people around the world and it brings us closer together | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
because it makes our interests much more deeply entwined and it actually | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
makes it harder for countries to fall apart. We are seeing that now | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
with the United States. The positive aspect of globalisation. I think | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
that trade can be and should be a positive thing and the way we make | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
sure it is... It is true that trade impacts on all of us, in other | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
countries and here. We need all the friends we can get? We can make sure | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
that we keep high standards, environmental standards, health and | :20:18. | :20:29. | |
safety standards, protection for workers and human rights at the core | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
of our trade and that is how we can ensure that trade has a positive | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
effect on all of us in this country and abroad. If we start saying that | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
those things need to be add-ons if we can cram it into the trade | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
agreement, that is how you ensure there will be a race to the bottom. | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
We need to re-vision how we approach trade. Thank you all very much | :20:45. | :20:45. | |
indeed. If you have something to say | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
about that debate log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
where you'll find links to join We're also debating live this | :20:52. | :20:52. | |
morning from Cambridge would gender-neutral language | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
be better for mankind? And have we lost the real | :21:00. | :21:01. | |
meaning of Easter? So get tweeting or emailing on those | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
have about the show. This week, columnists | :21:08. | :21:15. | |
in tabloids and broadsheets alike were fulminating | :21:16. | :21:17. | |
against the University of Hull. Students on a religious activism | :21:18. | :21:19. | |
course had supposedly been told they would lose marks if they didn't | :21:20. | :21:27. | |
write in gender-neutral language. For example, they shouldn't write | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
about what he or she might do but rather what they would do, | :21:33. | :21:34. | |
even if there's only one So I am not a he but | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
a they or an it. So no firemen, chairmen, | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
policewomen or stunt women. Would gender-neutral language | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
be better for mankind? A stimulating, provocative question. | :21:50. | :22:11. | |
Emma, you are neither male nor female, right? I identify as | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
non-binary sty and neither male nor female and in correspondents I use | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
that day or them pronoun. So you think that gender roles damage | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
society and we need to think about language carefully. Yes. Things are | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
codified in the language we use that we use language to construct society | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
and what is true is a huge variance of gender presentation and gender | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
identity in humankind. Not simply men and women. Yes, humankind, not | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
mankind. I wouldn't say mankind because humankind is more accurate. | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
In the same way as me using they and them is more accurate descriptor as | :22:48. | :22:57. | |
my identity. What about Homo sapiens? I very rarely used | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
scientific language in my life. It means wise man. We need to look at | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
the abolition of language to support gender neutrality and that is for a | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
number of reasons. Firstly it stops the assumption that the most | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
important people in the room are men or that the only people in the room | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
are men. And it does include that wider spectrum of gender. There is a | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
wonderful quote where gender and language should be comfortable and | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
fair. She is referring to German which is one of the most strictly | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
gender codified languages in Europe. What happens in German? German has a | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
grammatical gender and agenda pronominal system. They have | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
gendered pronouns and nouns, supported by the wider grammar of | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
the language. But actually the German date is encouraging | :23:44. | :23:45. | |
lecturers, professionals and industry to use gender neutral | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
language. -- the German state. Like the university of Hull, universities | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
in Germany are using gender neutral language because it includes | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
everyone and gives that space for trans people that are neither male | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
nor female. This is a question of sensitivity. Courtesy is all very | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
well but you are encouraging people to use certain words. My problem is | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
when language is policed. If we think about the first series of Star | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
Trek, it opened with to boldly go where no man had gone before, and | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
then it was to bother go where no one has gone before. Nobody cared. I | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
am bothered by the split infinitive! But nobody cares about gender | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
neutralisation. Nobody cares about that sort of stuff. They don't. What | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
they really care about... Put your hand up if you care. They are mad! | :24:40. | :24:48. | |
Let me make my point. Those things, it humankind, mankind, they are | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
interchangeable, synonymous. We are talking about people, a minority of | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
activists, who seek to have people disciplined or sacked because they | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
are imposing certain language. That is the imposition of light which are | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
not the revolution. It depends on the context. You might want to use | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
gender neutral language to self-described as you might then | :25:12. | :25:13. | |
tell your employer and friends that and if they continue to use the | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
wrong lag which, that is a mark of disrespect towards the person and a | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
lack of willingness to engage. -- the wrong language. They should be | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
disciplined in a can professional context. You hear what they said, | :25:27. | :25:37. | |
would that be the correct use of language? Yes, the singular they has | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
existed for a very long time. But it would be rude? Yes, I think that is | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
dehumanising but some people might self select to use it but in general | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
that is dehumanising. The suffragettes would be appalled about | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
this, wouldn't they? They want women to be noticed and out there. They | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
want women to achieve and for other women to know that they have | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
achieved. It is really about self-determination, isn't it? People | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
should decide how they are going to identify. But I don't know how you | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
are going to identify. Then I will tell you. I tell you my name and you | :26:12. | :26:24. | |
call me by the name that I give you and I could give you my gender | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
pronoun. It is pretty simple and it doesn't need to be such a | :26:28. | :26:29. | |
complicated thing. I think it is very important to respect the way | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
people identify. But it isn't simple. The gender neutral pronouns | :26:33. | :26:34. | |
that are being invented, they are being imposed on people. But | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
language is evolving and is not static. Sure, but the distinction I | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
am trying to make is between language evolving and pushing | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
something onto people. But there is no distinction. Over time language | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
changes and there were terms used a couple of years ago that were used | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
to refer to people of mixed race such as mulato are nowadays people | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
don't understand the term and quite rightly because it was obnoxious | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
that we have got rid of it. As time goes on, we have the freedom to | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
choose. People argue about political correctness but this is grammatical | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
incorrectness. But there are places where it is very important. You | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
mentioned the term chairman. Companies still refer to as chairman | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
and that is not necessary. It sends a message out to young women that | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
they are not qualified to apply for the job. It may be a very subtle | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
message and it might not be what the person intends but can we do better? | :27:38. | :27:44. | |
Yes. Should we? Yes. Brilliant. What about people who are non-binary, | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
gender fluid? We are all male and female. Yes, of course. We are all | :27:49. | :27:56. | |
male and female. Transgender people? There is a tiny minority of people | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
with intersex conditions. Add a tiny minority of people who have some | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
condition with a female brain and the male body. Apart from this, we | :28:07. | :28:13. | |
are all male and female. The attempt to suggest that there is a third | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
gender is, as far as I am concerned, and ideological and political | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
project. It doesn't exist. The words male and female have existed | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
throughout history. Throughout the world. Men are people with he needs | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
his, women are people with joining us. It is as simple as that. I | :28:32. | :28:38. | |
refuse to refer to this woman, who is clearly a woman as they, because | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
that would be an ideological, political system. How can you say | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
that? Because she is! Everybody watching this programme can see that | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
she is a woman. That is definitely your problem. No! You are asking me | :28:55. | :29:03. | |
to engage in an ideological, political system which I disagree | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
with. I think we are male or female. But choosing what somebody is called | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
is not imposing an ideological system. I am off for a cup of tea! | :29:13. | :29:21. | |
It is just not true to say that on a biological level we are only male or | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
female. Being intersex, which is a combination of 32 different ways of | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
chromosomes being defined is as common as being red haired but that | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
is physiological. Gender is socially created and it is separate to your | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
body. You may have a female perceived body and be female and you | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
may not. I do not present in masculine or androgynous way because | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
I question the idea that to be non-binary I have got to masculine | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
eyes my appearance. To say that you refuse to use my pronouns or refer | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
to me as a gender that I am as one of the greatest acts of disrespect | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
that I am forced to ensure on a daily basis. You have no empathy and | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
respect for people like me and the wider trans community and that | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
diminishes my respect for you as an individual. | :30:08. | :30:37. | |
Occasionally there are those who are more difficult to identify but it | :30:38. | :30:45. | |
refers to another situation. Someone must agree with Michael Grubb who | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
wants to say something? You're in the grey jumper? Do they want to say | :30:49. | :30:58. | |
something? I am a female. It is my belief system and that is fine. The | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
idea that you're seeing if this person chooses to say that they are | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
they that you cannot engage with that because of your belief system, | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
we live in a culture where lots of people have lots of different | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
beliefs, as is very clear on today's show. We cannot say I have this | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
belief system and therefore I am going to impose it on everyone. You | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
cannot do that. They have a particular... There you go! They | :31:28. | :31:37. | |
have a belief system. You cannot impose yours on them. In a minute. I | :31:38. | :31:55. | |
am not sure what to say. I don't mind. Call me anything you want. We | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
are complicating things too much. Somebody once said politicians treat | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
symptoms and leaders treat disease. If the problem we are concerned with | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
is gender inequality, let's fix equal rights for women in the | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
workplace, not stigmatise people who are transgender. We are placing too | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
much weight on something that is petty in my opinion. We need to | :32:21. | :32:30. | |
focus on more important things. Is this worth personning the barricades | :32:31. | :32:47. | |
for? You've had marriage proposals from it, you've had a lot of respect | :32:48. | :32:59. | |
when you ridiculed religion. I did not ridicule it I made a point about | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
the fallacy. You are sensitive about gender but not about religion. You | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
don't want to offend anyone about gender. I completely disagree with | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
you. I am firm about gender and I am a massive campaign against gender | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
discrimination, all of this stuff. One of the powerful things about it | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
is I can send in my CV and put my initial at the top and I have not | :33:27. | :33:36. | |
got to write Mr or Mrs. Their are-2-mac things. There is what | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
should be very small, do we address people in the way that they want to | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
be addressed? You have said I am disrespectful to religion. It is | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
suggested. If somebody says to me, I am Reverend Jones, I call them | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
reverence. That is what they want to be called. So I call them that. If | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
somebody says they want to be called they are Ms or Mickey, I call them | :34:08. | :34:16. | |
what they want to be called. Oh well put. It is a matter of courtesy. | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
Courtesy is extremely important and if people are in a dialogue with | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
gender constructs we need to respect really come from. But we need to be | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
allowed to ask questions, is there a relevance between personhood and | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
biology? Am I going to start feeling that womanhood is being abolished in | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
the way that I understand it if I cannot refer to myself as she? Who | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
is talking about you not being able to refer to yourself? The whole | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
point is it should be fluid and fear, this is not about everyone | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
being gender neutral. It does not take anything away from you and if | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
it does that poses meaningful questions. It is not like the French | :35:04. | :35:13. | |
Revolution. This is actually a matter of choice. There is something | :35:14. | :35:24. | |
further behind. We all know if you want to abuse people you must first | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
abuse the language. Is it an abuse of language or a revelation of the | :35:28. | :35:38. | |
human person. If there an importance to male and female or not and if we | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
cannot have that conversation in a respectful way we might be including | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
the abolition of male and female as we understand it. Is the project to | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
create neutrality dangerous in some way? If we cannot ask that question | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
without being shouted down that is alarming. Are we dealing with the | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
abolition of man and women in a profound way? I think we are. There | :36:05. | :36:11. | |
are lots of useful things about not presenting as male or female in a | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
job application. But... This idea that there is an imposition. Some | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
people might say councils are universities are doing it. Some | :36:24. | :36:31. | |
people might be afraid to embark on a sentence and walk-through | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
eggshells in case they say the wrong thing. It is not liberating, it is | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
constricting, isn't it? It is liberating for people who are | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
vulnerable. People who are afraid of saying the wrong thing and using the | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
wrong terminology, that is OK. This is not asking people to be well | :36:49. | :36:56. | |
versed, it is asking you to embrace a piece of learning and knowledge, | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
accept that communities have existed forever and have been propped up by | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
language constructed in other parts of the world. Ask questions. Do your | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
own research. It is OK to make mistakes. The bad thing is to make a | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
mistake, refuse to accept that you've made it and refuse to learn. | :37:19. | :37:28. | |
You work for the Daily Telegraph. Next week you should convince your | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
editor to use gender neutral language. It generally does use | :37:34. | :37:43. | |
gender neutral language. Language is organic. It reflects the society | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
that it comes out of. Ultimately, is they going to stick? I doubt it. | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
That is not how most people see the world. We are kind of right on the | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
margin. I'm the father of two daughters. I think firefighter is | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
better than fireman. If my girls want to work in the Fire Service | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
that is terrific. I don't think we should get hung up. If you want to | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
tie yourself in knots, the arbiter of that will be, people will accept | :38:15. | :38:24. | |
it on the basis of common sense. Are quite happy, singular of they and | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
them has been in the English language for quite some time. It | :38:29. | :38:36. | |
takes more time to say and is a Frankenstein sentence. I love that | :38:37. | :38:52. | |
phrase. We must not lose sight of the fact that language refers to a | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
reality. As a writer I feel that is very important. I think there is | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
something very serious at stake, if we start eroding concept of male and | :39:03. | :39:10. | |
female, which is happening. Is it happening? If we get to a point | :39:11. | :39:18. | |
where the women's rights movement cannot talk about the experience of | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
women that is a problem but I don't see that being under threat. There | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
is much more of an issue out there right now with expectations about | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
men and women and I think it is better for men and women and | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
everyone who does not feel like they fit into those categories if we say, | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
let's not have a way that men and women behave, let's talk about how | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
people are, and wherever you are comfortable in that, great. Great | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
news for people who have been excluded from jobs. We've got to | :39:50. | :39:59. | |
leave it there. We are going to talk about Easter next. You can join in | :40:00. | :40:08. | |
the debates online. Tell us what you think about our last question. Have | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
we lost the meaning of Easter. You can e-mail us. It is Easter next | :40:14. | :40:22. | |
Sunday and the London Marathon takes place the following Sunday but we | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
are back on the 30th of April and you can apply to be in the audience | :40:26. | :40:33. | |
for the live edition of our pre-recorded special on | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
humanitarianism. Then we will be in Salford for a programme on | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
globalisation. And London on May the 28th. That is for a special on | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
genetic engineering. Who would have thought an Easter egg | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
hunt could become so controversial? The Prime Minister even | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
interrupted her sales mission to Saudi Arabia to chastise Cadbury | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
and the National Trust for downplaying the significance | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
of Easter in promotions for egg hunts on Trust | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
properties next weekend. The Archbishop of York said | :41:06. | :41:06. | |
it was like spitting on the grave of the firm's Christian | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
founder, John Cadbury. But Cadbury was a Quaker, | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
who do not celebrate either And the name Easter derives | :41:13. | :41:20. | |
from the Germanic Pagan goddess Eostre, whose lights at dawn may | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
or may not have been carried by hares but who certainly | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
represented spring fecundity. Yet to many Christians, | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
Easter, which commemorates the resurrection of Jesus Christ, | :41:34. | :41:35. | |
is the most important Have we lost the real | :41:36. | :41:37. | |
meaning of Easter? I will start with you, Sarah. I saw | :41:38. | :41:49. | |
you trying to come in and I did not have a chance to come to you. It is | :41:50. | :42:08. | |
about fecundity, basically. Your -- it is a lovely manifestation of | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
fertility and fecundity. Our question is writing off the back of | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
it? In Easter there has always been a celebration of spring and renewal. | :42:18. | :42:25. | |
Many scholarly debates and for hundreds of years it has been used | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
at the resurrection day. But what it brings in the Christian sense is the | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
renewal of humankind. Nature is a renewed in springtime. But Easter is | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
the biggest invitation that has been issued to humankind which is to be | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
called into the life of God. So the resurrection when Jesus comes back | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
from the dead, he does not just come back as a human person who is divine | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
comedy comes back as what we will be. It is a sign of who we will | :42:58. | :43:08. | |
become. So it is either of no significance or it is the most | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
significant of all. The rising of the pagan god is the original so you | :43:15. | :43:23. | |
can see how this tags onto it. There is a prefiguring in pagan tradition | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
of Christian celebration but there is also Passover. The most important | :43:30. | :43:39. | |
thing about it, obviously if you're French or Spanish you would be | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
calling it something else, which refers to that. The important thing | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
about it is Christ is sacrificed so that we can enter into the life of | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
God. The dues were taken into freedom. You know the four cups that | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
are drunk at the Passover feast... Can we come back to that? If we do, | :44:05. | :44:14. | |
I will hold you to that thought. Let's not go into the origins. I | :44:15. | :44:23. | |
know that you disagree with these. Should it be about Jesus dying on | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
the cross? The point is as human beings we look at our natural world | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
around us and we see the natural cycles of birth, death and rebirth. | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
All the fates have a concept of that and a celebration of that. Easter | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
happens to be the Christian version of that. There are other pagan | :44:44. | :44:51. | |
faiths that celebrate this renewal of life. It seems that we should | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
celebrate that we have these same concepts. | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
Rather than involving ourselves in squabbling over who is festival | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
proceeded who's and which came first, the chicken or the egg? Is | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
fecundity and fertility imported? At this time of year, the earth is | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
growing and you can see the plants growing with renewed vigour, and | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
what we are doing as human beings is looking at the natural world and | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
seeing ourselves reflected in that. We want a new projects, to spring | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
clean, to celebrate life. You could have been John four cups, you see, I | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
did it, and you can bent on creme eggs. Will you be having an Easter | :45:43. | :45:51. | |
egg? Not sure. If you look at the southern hemisphere, Easter does not | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
begin spring. The idea of the spring equinox, the full moon, it happens | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
to work with European countries where Christianity evolved. And the | :46:01. | :46:09. | |
Middle East. In South Africa they are going into winter in April. What | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
I do want to say about Easter is that for Christians there is a | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
belief that new beginnings are possible in life after periods of | :46:20. | :46:21. | |
hardship and struggle and the dark Knight of the soul. There is a new | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
beginning in your life and used it symbolises the possibility that new | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
beginnings can happen and I think that is what Christians want people | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
to know and that is an important value to keep hold of in our | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
society. It is interesting to have a theological debate about where it | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
all comes from. I think most of your viewers at home are wondering when | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
they get their Easter egg. The fact is that Jesus did not emerge from an | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
egg and neither did any of the pagan deities. At a fundamental | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
evolutionary level! As long as these things are optional, fine. If people | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
want to celebrate by going to church, the synagogue, the mask, | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
pagan events, whatever they want to go to, fine. But the problem always | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
comes in when it becomes compulsory. You should do this or that. Like in | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
Saudi Arabia? Exactly. And like a lot of the places we have talked | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
about where religion is not optional and religion has always got to be | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
optional. If you want to spend the long weekend with your family eating | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
chocolate and hopping around the garden like a rabbit, I don't know | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
what it means but have a great time. And if you want to spend it doing | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
something else, it should be your choice. I find the pagan origins of | :47:37. | :47:43. | |
the word Easter very interesting because when you study anthropology | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
you notice how Christianity comes in to different cultures and they do | :47:49. | :47:55. | |
adopt the different culture, and translated Christianity into the | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
symbols of that culture. That has perhaps slightly happened in this | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
country. The fact is that we have had a Christian Easter for hundreds | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
of years. I also feel that Christianity is a fundamental part | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
of western civilisation. A lot of the things that we take for granted, | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
like Easter, but a lot of the things to do with human rights, they are | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
rooted in Christianity. And I do think that we should acknowledge our | :48:25. | :48:32. | |
Christian roots. Many of us don't have Christian roots. I think | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
western civilisation does have very Christian roots. Sexism is rooted in | :48:37. | :48:47. | |
Christianity. Christianity is... Wait a minute! We have been around | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
as a species for hundreds of thousands of years. What would you | :48:53. | :49:02. | |
like to say? Are you a quicker? -- Quaker. The reason that John Cadbury | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
would not have rolled in his grave is because Quakers believe that | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
every day is holy and Christmas and Easter are no more holy than the day | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
that we are on today. So chocolate everyday! The reason that the church | :49:18. | :49:26. | |
opens up the season of Lent... I don't think that lady has finished. | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
Sorry about that. The idea that every day is God's day means that we | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
should be living that way and respecting God in everyone every | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
day. What a better world that would make it. I wish we could leave it | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
there but we have got another nine minutes! I might have to talk about | :49:46. | :49:55. | |
the four cups! Peter? This is a really important point. What you are | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
hearing here is essentially a lament for the decline of the church. Less | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
than 5% of people in this country go to church. We are nominally | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
Christian country but actually we are not really. What you are hearing | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
here is a lament for the fact that not enough people go to church and | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
subscribe to belief in the resurrection and a narrow Christian | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
version of Easter. But to take the Lady's point here, if I bring my | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
family together and we enjoy the daffodils and the roast lamb and | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
hunting the odd Easter egg, does that bring more like or darkness to | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
the world? It brings more like that we should ultimately embrace that. | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
Which is not to say that the Christian side shouldn't celebrate | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
solemnly. The lady there with the brown top. Hello? I think we missed | :50:41. | :50:47. | |
the fundamental point. It is about putting your disco pants on and | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
sharing and celebrating commonality is because in society today it seems | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
to me that we concentrate more on what divides us than what brings us | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
together and that is what we need to be looking at. That is definitely a | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
theme that we have picked up on in the other debates as well. We are | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
imposing linguistics and let's just dispense with that. What is | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
important is what we are describing and talking about. What we have got | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
here amongst many of the faiths is a concept that we all share, the idea | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
of renewal of life and growth. Who doesn't want to celebrate that? | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
Whether you are atheist or of faith or otherwise. It relates back to | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
what you were saying about language. It is the language that we choose | :51:30. | :51:36. | |
for people as a matter of courtesy. Do you see the connection? There is | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
some connection in allowing space for everyone and however they wish | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
to practice their particular faith. There is often contention at the | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
heart of religious debate about to has the most right and who will | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
ultimately succeed in whatever cosmic battle there is about life, | :51:50. | :51:57. | |
death and rebirth. Ultimately it is giving people the linguistic | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
flexibility to enjoy whatever practices they have, because it is | :52:02. | :52:03. | |
counter-productive to have a continuing fight than to celebrate. | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
My particular faith is Buddhism, as we celebrate the birth of blood at | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
this time again, so religions around the world are tied to this part of | :52:13. | :52:20. | |
the season. -- the birth of Buddha. To me it is much simpler than all of | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
this. Experts are becoming less important in this country. They are | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
saying that Christians between 2010 and 2050 will decrease to 45%. If | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
the true meaning of Easter is really the Christian meaning and companies | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
will target the 100%, then surely the meaning of Christianity will | :52:45. | :52:47. | |
also decline and that will happen across other Christian countries, | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
like the Netherlands and France. We will go over there. Hello. I do | :52:51. | :52:59. | |
believe that each holiday that comes from a religious holiday comes to | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
remind us about the spirituality that we have lost at which brings us | :53:05. | :53:11. | |
together. I think dividing us by Christians and Buddhism and | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
everything else is just culture. At the end of the day we are all | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
spiritual beings. When a holy day comes called Easter, it reminds you | :53:21. | :53:27. | |
to be kind, and... To look out for your fellow human beings? Why not do | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
what the Americans do with Christmas and have happy holidays? Instead of | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
happy Easter. Would you go with that. I don't think you would. I | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
wouldn't. This expression of looking out for your fellow human beings and | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
being kind to each other. This is rooted in Christianity, love your | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
neighbour as yourself. It is! It predates religion. No, it doesn't. | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
There are different parts of the world which don't have a Christian | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
basis and they don't have it actually the same moral structure -- | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
exactly the same moral structure. Even if it were the case that | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
Christian somehow behaved better because of this, the idea are | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
behaving better because you are terrified of an all-powerful deity, | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
that is not morality, that is fear. That is no way to behave. The Quaker | :54:21. | :54:31. | |
lady. Sorry to call you that! I don't know your name. My name is | :54:32. | :54:38. | |
Trish. Yes, I am getting that voice in my head telling me that. The | :54:39. | :54:48. | |
golden rule is found in almost every religion that predates Christianity | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
and is subsequently Christianity. Treating one another with respect as | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
if there is that of God in each person is the way we should be | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
living and respect for everyone is necessary. I am really surprised | :54:59. | :55:10. | |
that of the three debates this has been the most heated! Does anybody | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
really care? I am interested to know. Any Christian here, does | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
anybody care about chocolate eggs and a giant rabbit promoting | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
childhood obesity? Really, why does that matter? Because it might mask | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
the importance of that great invitation that we have received to | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
be brought out of the slavery of sin and into the light of Christ where | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
he gives us the power to enter into a divine life. I want to spread the | :55:40. | :55:48. | |
love. When consumerism becomes our God, that is a problem, and we just | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
want the story to be heard and the news to be known. I think if people | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
knew it, they would be at peace. Quiet, everyone. Andrew? I just want | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
to comment briefly on the irony of the fact that Theresa May was | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
defending the integrity of Easter eggs while she was trying to sell | :56:07. | :56:15. | |
weapons to a country that abuses human rights. Slam dunk! The fact of | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
the matter is that Jesus was crucified by an empire that cared | :56:23. | :56:29. | |
more about trade than human rights. So all things are interrelated, is | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
that what we are saying? Easter is not about bunnies and eggs and I | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
worked on a farm and there is nothing glamorous about them. | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
Cadbury is a great company but what I care about is an Easter Christian, | :56:41. | :56:47. | |
if I can call myself that, Cadbury is paying corporate tax and not | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
using child labour in the production of cocoa and that is what I care | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
about, not the bunnies. Even though I like bunnies. We are interweaving | :56:55. | :57:02. | |
all the debates and I am liking this. We will bring it all together | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
at the end. Can I quickly argue a point about what the lady at the | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
front was saying about moral behaviour and Christianity being | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
interlinked? Two points. Surely that is just human nature anyway? Also I | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
have known a lot of religious people use it as an excuse to justify | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
themselves, whether or not it is gossiping about their neighbours, or | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
if you go to a more extreme version where they just use religion as an | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
excuse. Religion and morality, we have been there before and we will | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
go there again and we have done a little bit today. John? 54 million | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
people die every year. About 3 million of those is through obesity | :57:45. | :57:54. | |
and type 2 diabetes. 650,000 people died violently every year. Only | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
130,000 of those through what we would conceive as warfare. That is | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
too many, agreed. But it seems to me that sugar may be more lethal for us | :58:06. | :58:12. | |
than gunpowder. Interesting point. How long have we got? Ten seconds on | :58:13. | :58:20. | |
the four cups. The fourth cup was brought into the land that is | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
promised. Jesus didn't drink it. He went out and he drank it and he was | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
crucified. That was the drinking of the fourth cup, he was crucified. | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
The good news is that in spite of sugar we all die and the news is | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
that we can live forever with God and that is the meaning of | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
Christianity. I am a man of my word! Thank you for watching. | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter. | :58:46. | :58:47. | |
We're not on next week because it's Easter but we'll be back from York | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
Have a great Sunday and enjoy your Easter. | :58:52. | :59:06. | |
PHONE RINGS 'Police emergency.' | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
Every two minutes, someone in Britain is reported missing. | :59:10. | :59:13. |