Episode 14 The Big Questions


Episode 14

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Today on The Big Questions: Trade v human rights,

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gender-neutral language, and what's Easter really about?

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Today we're live from Netherhall School in Cambridge.

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Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

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This week, Mrs May and her ministers have fanned out across globe

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in search of new business for post-Brexit Britain

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from customers outside the European Community.

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The Prime Minister has been in Saudi Arabia,

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her Chancellor has been in India, and Liam Fox has been telling

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the president of the Philippines that we enjoy shared values.

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Saudi Arabia treats women as second class citizens

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and executes people for being gay or for not believing in God.

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They've also been accused of war crimes for bombing

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Yet Saudi Arabia is Britain's largest trading partner

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And just the day before meeting the International Trade Secretary,

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Liam Fox, Philippine President Duterte told an audience of young

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school children he was angry and would kill people

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Thousands have died since his election last year

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And Duterte has said he doesn't give a BLEEP about human rights.

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Should we trade with countries that abuse human rights?

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Jordan, it is perfectly straightforward from a moral

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perspective. We are doing business with a country killing thousands in

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Yemen. Barbaric human rights records of torture, execution of games,

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women cannot marry, they cannot travel, they cannot access higher

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education without the permission of a man. Two women were detained and

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72 days without charge in Saudi Arabia for driving. Why are we

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dealing with these people? When you put it in those terms, it is not a

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place I would want my daughter to spend time but it is also a

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complicated set of relationships between governments. Trade is just

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one of those levers. We have a defence and security arrangement

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with Saudi Arabia and others, we share intelligence. The judgment

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made by the authorities is that keeps us safer. If we look at the

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economic arguments as well, in the UK, 140,000 jobs in the defence

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industries exist in part because of our ability to trade overseas.

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Directly, 14,004 Saudi Arabia. For some people, that is not important,

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it is about the moral imperative, but in the complicated world we live

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in, broader, systemic issues about relationships need to be taken

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account of. Has a Ronan human rights -- has the human rights values we

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hold made a difference in Saudi Arabia? It is very difficult to

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tell. In the Middle East you tend to see a very conservative... This

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change is clay seal. Yes, and it is very narrow, leadership. Just two

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layers below you see young folk with Western values, we see more people

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educated than we have seen in the West, just here in Cambridge there

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are a number of Saudi graduates who are women. Andrew Smith, 140,000

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jobs. It is one of the most brutal, repressive regimes in the world,

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utterly complicit in the destruction of Yemen. In the two years since

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that began, the UK has sold ?3 billion of weapons. I have no doubt

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that is what the Prime Minister was doing there. In terms of jobs, jobs

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involving arms exports account for 0.2% of jobs in the economy. We do

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not want to see mass unemployment, we want to see these skills put to

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good use in good, productive, sustainable industries, not those

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that depend on war and conflict to turn a profit. It is not just those

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jobs, there are outer rings and outer rings beyond that of related

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industries. The arms industry is a keystone industry, not just

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components but technology and engineering beyond that. We've got

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to use the right figures. According to the area of space -- Aerospace

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groups it is 55,000 jobs. We need to use the right figure. That is only

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one third of the figures used regularly by government which

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includes procurement as well. In terms of the cost, we've got to

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think about what message it sent out. The message it sends to the

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Saudi regime was total support for its brutal rule. The message it sent

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out to those in Saudi prisons, those being tortured for their beliefs,

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was that their human rights do not matter. Isn't that the moral

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message? You just carry on, we want your money. My understanding was she

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was very robust, polite but robust in terms of her expectations in

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relation to the broader relationship between the two governments. It is

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important to remember that quite often this subject is projected as

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dodgy salesmen selling arms. That is not true. This is a significant

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government to government relationship, heavily controlled,

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companies sell weapons to the British government and the British

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government trade with countries. Financial services. Indeed. These

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are very fine judgments, nuanced judgments. It is not nuanced when

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you're thrown off a roof for being gay. Correct. I would not want my

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daughter to spend significant time in Saudi Arabia and I have a lot of

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respect for Andrew's position but this is a real world, complicated

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set of problems. Can we get away from it being complicated? I've got

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a degree, explain it to me. It is not complicated. We are selling

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weapons to people who are using it to abuse human rights. It does not

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matter how much money we make, I could make a lot of money as a hired

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assassin, it does not make it all right. It is not complicated, it is

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incredibly simple. Why are we letting have access to weapons when

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they are going to kill innocent people with them? We need to stop. I

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will be with you in a second. I want to bring Davies in. You are sitting

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beside Kate, who has entered the fray. You can turn to your left. I'm

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always on the left. Let me make a bold prediction and save the that a

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majority of the people watching this programme get it, on the one hand,

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these things are true, it is a very problematic country, but they

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understand that on the other hand Britain has needs in the world, they

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are very reality -based things around conflict, with the

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intelligence sharing with the Saudis has saved lives, Saudi stability is

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a factor in the Middle East at the same time as these grievous things

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go on... Is that the same as saying, you used the phrase, Britain has her

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needs. We were discussing prostitution on this programme a

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couple of weeks ago. You may laugh but isn't there an analogy, you're

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going to a brothel where women are being abused because you have your

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needs. There is not an analogy at all because the country cannot deal

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on the basis of the personal in the same way as you deal in

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international affairs. The British government has shown a fantastic

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example of this in action. Michael Gove cancelled a contract with the

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Saudi prison system because it is a part of Saudi Arabia that is deeply

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problematic and we should not engage in. The government still sells

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weapons because Saudi Arabia does have an important need to fulfil in

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the region. Therefore, we are in a relationship that is conducive. The

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Saudi regime is committing war crimes and we know that for a fact.

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The bombing in Yemen has resulted in thousands of deaths. It is actually

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against the policy. The truth is, the UK has been providing military

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support to the Saudi regime for years. It is not a phenomenon on

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that is new. It has allowed these human rights abuses to continue. The

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UK is just as complicit and that is why we need to totally reformulate

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the way that the trade regime is imagining. If we don't sell it,

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China would sell them. They care nothing of human rights. Do we not

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have some kind of impact? The UK Government is showing that it cares

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nothing about human rights by exporting these weapons to Saudi

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Arabia and Israel. Like Israel? Indeed. Would you like -- would you

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compare them? War crimes are war crimes and it should be prohibiting

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the export of these weapons to countries committing war crimes.

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That would lead us on to a massive debate and I want to acknowledge

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that with our viewers at home. Last time we were on, we had that. But I

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mark what you said with interest. A number of politicians who come to

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hold the position of Secretary of State for Defence have said, I will

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profoundly review the relationship we have with Saudi Arabia and we

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will probably withdraw some of our licences. As soon as those

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politicians from both sides of the debate have arrived in office

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they've reviewed the relationships and kept it. That is a matter of

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record. It is disingenuous. Part of the problem with arms trade is there

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is so little transparency so that one of the things we've seen, there

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is evidence of governments ministers knowing of war crimes being

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committed and approving those exports anyway. We need

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transparency. Who would you deal with? You mentioned Israel. Many

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will argue it is a democracy. Other people have mentioned China. Maybe

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we cannot trade with China. Beyond that, in terms of human rights

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abuses, who else, who would you trade with? It is a question of how

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we approach our trade relations with any country. Protection for workers,

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human rights, instead of corporations, it is something we

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have as a policy where we approach all of these things at the centre.

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Did you have your hand up? Is there any evidence that trade sanctions

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improve human rights in these countries? Not so much a question

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but I am utterly shocked by the fact that we're still talking about

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funding either regimes or trading with countries who have a really

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horrible record of human rights, the key question is, a lot of countries,

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we should move away from that discourse which is about needing

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business, when we see how many people are displaced and the refugee

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crisis we deal with nowadays, people lending at the bottom of the

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Mediterranean Sea. Surely we've got to think carefully as to what sort

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of world we want to live in. We should still export arms to

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countries... We would be crying outrage but we are not crying out

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rage long enough in my opinion. Anyone else?

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Good morning. Quick point? We keep hearing about human rights

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violations, but human rights according to which organisation?

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Different countries have different understandings of what human rights

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means. So you are saying there should be relativism and other

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countries should have different human rights values? According to

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what frameworks are we talking about human rights? International

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humanitarian frameworks. Let's hear from that lady. We condemn children

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who witness bullying and don't speak out. Providing weapons to bully

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people and cause mass wars, we are just as bad as the children who

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don't speak out. What is the strategic thinking behind having

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this relationship? The one with Saudi Arabia. What some of the

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people have been saying about war crimes is not correct. Look at it

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like this. You want to stop some of the terrible things you see on your

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television screens, about the Syrian civil war, whatever else. You don't

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want to send your own troops to die to do it and you need allies. Allies

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are not perfect. United Kingdom has had to fight against radical Islam

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across the world with allies that are not perfect. Saudi Arabia is a

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source of radical Islam. Absolutely. And there is the problem of duality

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with one of the things they do in spreading ideology and the things

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they do in providing a modicum of stability in the Middle East

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fighting against the spread of the Iranian revolution in that way. But

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at the end of the day unless you are willing to send your own troops to

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go into all these different theatres, you are going to have to

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work with allies that are not perfect. I am convinced that your

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viewers understand that the morality that this country has and the west

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as God, which is better, unquestionably better, the quest for

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democracy and justice, has got to live in accordance with the

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realities of a very imperfect world. -- the west has got. Saudi Arabia

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does provide a modicum of stability in the Middle East. Do you provide

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that -- do you buy that? It doesn't provide stability for journalists

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who are tortured and it doesn't provide stability for women. Saudi

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Arabia is one of the most oppressive regimes in the world. I want to come

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back to the point about intelligence Schering. We are UN bound to share

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intelligence with Saudi Arabia. If there was any suggestion from a

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panel that Saudi Arabia would not share intelligence on the grounds

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that they could not buy billions of pounds of weapons every year, and

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they would knowingly allow terrorism to happen on the streets of London

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because we were not selling them weapons, anyone who thinks anything

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like that has a low opinion of the regime than I do. I just want to

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move on to the Philippines. Roderigo du tout, Liam Fox said he shares our

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values. -- President to Duterte. He has killed millions of

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people. How does a mass murderer share our values? I don't think he

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does but I do think that Liam Fox had a job to do in terms of forging

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relationships and there is a very complicated reality in forging those

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relationships. I personally don't think that Duterte shares our values

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and that cannot be said to be the case. Why do we condemn people like

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Robert Mugabe who are of no use to us but just as Venus? These are the

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double standards that ruin our reputation across the world. That is

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the problem. It is not double standards. It is strategic decisions

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about the needs of this country and plurality. The audience might not

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like it but the people in the country understand that we have

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strategic needs and we want to bring them in unison with our values. One

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man's double standard is another's strategic decision. Is this

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complicated? Should we trade with countries? The answer it is a

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separate discussion and we have got to be very careful as we enter the

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post-Brexit world and we earn our place in the world that we don't

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engage in a race to the bottom in the name of trade. But the broader

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question is should we trade with countries that abuse human rights? I

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used to be the correspondent in China, the four years, for the Daily

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Telegraph. I covered lots of human rights abuses. The Nobel Peace Prize

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laureate is still in jail in China. But when China opened up we made a

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Faustian bargain. We agreed to trade with China and it has not delivered

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the reforms that we hoped. But it has transformed lives in China,

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trade. It is not that long ago. 1959 to 1961, 40 million Chinese died in

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a famine. So if you look at it that way, trade has brought incredible

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things. Environmental degradation but incredible benefits. Should we

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trade with the United States? That country had a state sanctioned

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torture programme in Guantanamo Bay. This is very complicated stuff. I

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firmly believe that trade is not a panacea but it does bring real

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benefits to people around the world and it brings us closer together

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because it makes our interests much more deeply entwined and it actually

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makes it harder for countries to fall apart. We are seeing that now

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with the United States. The positive aspect of globalisation. I think

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that trade can be and should be a positive thing and the way we make

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sure it is... It is true that trade impacts on all of us, in other

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countries and here. We need all the friends we can get? We can make sure

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that we keep high standards, environmental standards, health and

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safety standards, protection for workers and human rights at the core

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of our trade and that is how we can ensure that trade has a positive

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effect on all of us in this country and abroad. If we start saying that

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those things need to be add-ons if we can cram it into the trade

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agreement, that is how you ensure there will be a race to the bottom.

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We need to re-vision how we approach trade. Thank you all very much

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indeed. If you have something to say

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about that debate log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions

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where you'll find links to join We're also debating live this

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morning from Cambridge would gender-neutral language

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be better for mankind? And have we lost the real

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meaning of Easter? So get tweeting or emailing on those

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topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may

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have about the show. This week, columnists

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in tabloids and broadsheets alike were fulminating

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against the University of Hull. Students on a religious activism

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course had supposedly been told they would lose marks if they didn't

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write in gender-neutral language. For example, they shouldn't write

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about what he or she might do but rather what they would do,

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even if there's only one So I am not a he but

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a they or an it. So no firemen, chairmen,

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policewomen or stunt women. Would gender-neutral language

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be better for mankind? A stimulating, provocative question.

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Emma, you are neither male nor female, right? I identify as

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non-binary sty and neither male nor female and in correspondents I use

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that day or them pronoun. So you think that gender roles damage

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society and we need to think about language carefully. Yes. Things are

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codified in the language we use that we use language to construct society

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and what is true is a huge variance of gender presentation and gender

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identity in humankind. Not simply men and women. Yes, humankind, not

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mankind. I wouldn't say mankind because humankind is more accurate.

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In the same way as me using they and them is more accurate descriptor as

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my identity. What about Homo sapiens? I very rarely used

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scientific language in my life. It means wise man. We need to look at

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the abolition of language to support gender neutrality and that is for a

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number of reasons. Firstly it stops the assumption that the most

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important people in the room are men or that the only people in the room

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are men. And it does include that wider spectrum of gender. There is a

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wonderful quote where gender and language should be comfortable and

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fair. She is referring to German which is one of the most strictly

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gender codified languages in Europe. What happens in German? German has a

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grammatical gender and agenda pronominal system. They have

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gendered pronouns and nouns, supported by the wider grammar of

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the language. But actually the German date is encouraging

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lecturers, professionals and industry to use gender neutral

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language. -- the German state. Like the university of Hull, universities

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in Germany are using gender neutral language because it includes

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everyone and gives that space for trans people that are neither male

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nor female. This is a question of sensitivity. Courtesy is all very

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well but you are encouraging people to use certain words. My problem is

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when language is policed. If we think about the first series of Star

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Trek, it opened with to boldly go where no man had gone before, and

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then it was to bother go where no one has gone before. Nobody cared. I

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am bothered by the split infinitive! But nobody cares about gender

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neutralisation. Nobody cares about that sort of stuff. They don't. What

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they really care about... Put your hand up if you care. They are mad!

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Let me make my point. Those things, it humankind, mankind, they are

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interchangeable, synonymous. We are talking about people, a minority of

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activists, who seek to have people disciplined or sacked because they

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are imposing certain language. That is the imposition of light which are

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not the revolution. It depends on the context. You might want to use

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gender neutral language to self-described as you might then

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tell your employer and friends that and if they continue to use the

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wrong lag which, that is a mark of disrespect towards the person and a

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lack of willingness to engage. -- the wrong language. They should be

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disciplined in a can professional context. You hear what they said,

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would that be the correct use of language? Yes, the singular they has

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existed for a very long time. But it would be rude? Yes, I think that is

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dehumanising but some people might self select to use it but in general

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that is dehumanising. The suffragettes would be appalled about

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this, wouldn't they? They want women to be noticed and out there. They

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want women to achieve and for other women to know that they have

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achieved. It is really about self-determination, isn't it? People

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should decide how they are going to identify. But I don't know how you

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are going to identify. Then I will tell you. I tell you my name and you

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call me by the name that I give you and I could give you my gender

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pronoun. It is pretty simple and it doesn't need to be such a

:26:28.:26:29.

complicated thing. I think it is very important to respect the way

:26:30.:26:32.

people identify. But it isn't simple. The gender neutral pronouns

:26:33.:26:34.

that are being invented, they are being imposed on people. But

:26:35.:26:42.

language is evolving and is not static. Sure, but the distinction I

:26:43.:26:48.

am trying to make is between language evolving and pushing

:26:49.:26:53.

something onto people. But there is no distinction. Over time language

:26:54.:26:57.

changes and there were terms used a couple of years ago that were used

:26:58.:27:04.

to refer to people of mixed race such as mulato are nowadays people

:27:05.:27:08.

don't understand the term and quite rightly because it was obnoxious

:27:09.:27:11.

that we have got rid of it. As time goes on, we have the freedom to

:27:12.:27:16.

choose. People argue about political correctness but this is grammatical

:27:17.:27:19.

incorrectness. But there are places where it is very important. You

:27:20.:27:23.

mentioned the term chairman. Companies still refer to as chairman

:27:24.:27:29.

and that is not necessary. It sends a message out to young women that

:27:30.:27:32.

they are not qualified to apply for the job. It may be a very subtle

:27:33.:27:37.

message and it might not be what the person intends but can we do better?

:27:38.:27:44.

Yes. Should we? Yes. Brilliant. What about people who are non-binary,

:27:45.:27:48.

gender fluid? We are all male and female. Yes, of course. We are all

:27:49.:27:56.

male and female. Transgender people? There is a tiny minority of people

:27:57.:28:02.

with intersex conditions. Add a tiny minority of people who have some

:28:03.:28:06.

condition with a female brain and the male body. Apart from this, we

:28:07.:28:13.

are all male and female. The attempt to suggest that there is a third

:28:14.:28:18.

gender is, as far as I am concerned, and ideological and political

:28:19.:28:23.

project. It doesn't exist. The words male and female have existed

:28:24.:28:26.

throughout history. Throughout the world. Men are people with he needs

:28:27.:28:31.

his, women are people with joining us. It is as simple as that. I

:28:32.:28:38.

refuse to refer to this woman, who is clearly a woman as they, because

:28:39.:28:45.

that would be an ideological, political system. How can you say

:28:46.:28:50.

that? Because she is! Everybody watching this programme can see that

:28:51.:28:54.

she is a woman. That is definitely your problem. No! You are asking me

:28:55.:29:03.

to engage in an ideological, political system which I disagree

:29:04.:29:09.

with. I think we are male or female. But choosing what somebody is called

:29:10.:29:12.

is not imposing an ideological system. I am off for a cup of tea!

:29:13.:29:21.

It is just not true to say that on a biological level we are only male or

:29:22.:29:25.

female. Being intersex, which is a combination of 32 different ways of

:29:26.:29:29.

chromosomes being defined is as common as being red haired but that

:29:30.:29:33.

is physiological. Gender is socially created and it is separate to your

:29:34.:29:38.

body. You may have a female perceived body and be female and you

:29:39.:29:42.

may not. I do not present in masculine or androgynous way because

:29:43.:29:45.

I question the idea that to be non-binary I have got to masculine

:29:46.:29:50.

eyes my appearance. To say that you refuse to use my pronouns or refer

:29:51.:29:56.

to me as a gender that I am as one of the greatest acts of disrespect

:29:57.:30:00.

that I am forced to ensure on a daily basis. You have no empathy and

:30:01.:30:03.

respect for people like me and the wider trans community and that

:30:04.:30:07.

diminishes my respect for you as an individual.

:30:08.:30:37.

Occasionally there are those who are more difficult to identify but it

:30:38.:30:45.

refers to another situation. Someone must agree with Michael Grubb who

:30:46.:30:48.

wants to say something? You're in the grey jumper? Do they want to say

:30:49.:30:58.

something? I am a female. It is my belief system and that is fine. The

:30:59.:31:04.

idea that you're seeing if this person chooses to say that they are

:31:05.:31:07.

they that you cannot engage with that because of your belief system,

:31:08.:31:12.

we live in a culture where lots of people have lots of different

:31:13.:31:15.

beliefs, as is very clear on today's show. We cannot say I have this

:31:16.:31:22.

belief system and therefore I am going to impose it on everyone. You

:31:23.:31:27.

cannot do that. They have a particular... There you go! They

:31:28.:31:37.

have a belief system. You cannot impose yours on them. In a minute. I

:31:38.:31:55.

am not sure what to say. I don't mind. Call me anything you want. We

:31:56.:31:59.

are complicating things too much. Somebody once said politicians treat

:32:00.:32:06.

symptoms and leaders treat disease. If the problem we are concerned with

:32:07.:32:12.

is gender inequality, let's fix equal rights for women in the

:32:13.:32:17.

workplace, not stigmatise people who are transgender. We are placing too

:32:18.:32:20.

much weight on something that is petty in my opinion. We need to

:32:21.:32:30.

focus on more important things. Is this worth personning the barricades

:32:31.:32:47.

for? You've had marriage proposals from it, you've had a lot of respect

:32:48.:32:59.

when you ridiculed religion. I did not ridicule it I made a point about

:33:00.:33:04.

the fallacy. You are sensitive about gender but not about religion. You

:33:05.:33:11.

don't want to offend anyone about gender. I completely disagree with

:33:12.:33:16.

you. I am firm about gender and I am a massive campaign against gender

:33:17.:33:22.

discrimination, all of this stuff. One of the powerful things about it

:33:23.:33:26.

is I can send in my CV and put my initial at the top and I have not

:33:27.:33:36.

got to write Mr or Mrs. Their are-2-mac things. There is what

:33:37.:33:40.

should be very small, do we address people in the way that they want to

:33:41.:33:47.

be addressed? You have said I am disrespectful to religion. It is

:33:48.:33:54.

suggested. If somebody says to me, I am Reverend Jones, I call them

:33:55.:34:00.

reverence. That is what they want to be called. So I call them that. If

:34:01.:34:07.

somebody says they want to be called they are Ms or Mickey, I call them

:34:08.:34:16.

what they want to be called. Oh well put. It is a matter of courtesy.

:34:17.:34:23.

Courtesy is extremely important and if people are in a dialogue with

:34:24.:34:27.

gender constructs we need to respect really come from. But we need to be

:34:28.:34:33.

allowed to ask questions, is there a relevance between personhood and

:34:34.:34:37.

biology? Am I going to start feeling that womanhood is being abolished in

:34:38.:34:41.

the way that I understand it if I cannot refer to myself as she? Who

:34:42.:34:48.

is talking about you not being able to refer to yourself? The whole

:34:49.:34:54.

point is it should be fluid and fear, this is not about everyone

:34:55.:34:59.

being gender neutral. It does not take anything away from you and if

:35:00.:35:03.

it does that poses meaningful questions. It is not like the French

:35:04.:35:13.

Revolution. This is actually a matter of choice. There is something

:35:14.:35:24.

further behind. We all know if you want to abuse people you must first

:35:25.:35:27.

abuse the language. Is it an abuse of language or a revelation of the

:35:28.:35:38.

human person. If there an importance to male and female or not and if we

:35:39.:35:42.

cannot have that conversation in a respectful way we might be including

:35:43.:35:47.

the abolition of male and female as we understand it. Is the project to

:35:48.:35:54.

create neutrality dangerous in some way? If we cannot ask that question

:35:55.:35:58.

without being shouted down that is alarming. Are we dealing with the

:35:59.:36:04.

abolition of man and women in a profound way? I think we are. There

:36:05.:36:11.

are lots of useful things about not presenting as male or female in a

:36:12.:36:18.

job application. But... This idea that there is an imposition. Some

:36:19.:36:23.

people might say councils are universities are doing it. Some

:36:24.:36:31.

people might be afraid to embark on a sentence and walk-through

:36:32.:36:35.

eggshells in case they say the wrong thing. It is not liberating, it is

:36:36.:36:41.

constricting, isn't it? It is liberating for people who are

:36:42.:36:44.

vulnerable. People who are afraid of saying the wrong thing and using the

:36:45.:36:48.

wrong terminology, that is OK. This is not asking people to be well

:36:49.:36:56.

versed, it is asking you to embrace a piece of learning and knowledge,

:36:57.:37:03.

accept that communities have existed forever and have been propped up by

:37:04.:37:07.

language constructed in other parts of the world. Ask questions. Do your

:37:08.:37:12.

own research. It is OK to make mistakes. The bad thing is to make a

:37:13.:37:18.

mistake, refuse to accept that you've made it and refuse to learn.

:37:19.:37:28.

You work for the Daily Telegraph. Next week you should convince your

:37:29.:37:33.

editor to use gender neutral language. It generally does use

:37:34.:37:43.

gender neutral language. Language is organic. It reflects the society

:37:44.:37:48.

that it comes out of. Ultimately, is they going to stick? I doubt it.

:37:49.:37:53.

That is not how most people see the world. We are kind of right on the

:37:54.:37:57.

margin. I'm the father of two daughters. I think firefighter is

:37:58.:38:03.

better than fireman. If my girls want to work in the Fire Service

:38:04.:38:10.

that is terrific. I don't think we should get hung up. If you want to

:38:11.:38:14.

tie yourself in knots, the arbiter of that will be, people will accept

:38:15.:38:24.

it on the basis of common sense. Are quite happy, singular of they and

:38:25.:38:28.

them has been in the English language for quite some time. It

:38:29.:38:36.

takes more time to say and is a Frankenstein sentence. I love that

:38:37.:38:52.

phrase. We must not lose sight of the fact that language refers to a

:38:53.:38:57.

reality. As a writer I feel that is very important. I think there is

:38:58.:39:02.

something very serious at stake, if we start eroding concept of male and

:39:03.:39:10.

female, which is happening. Is it happening? If we get to a point

:39:11.:39:18.

where the women's rights movement cannot talk about the experience of

:39:19.:39:22.

women that is a problem but I don't see that being under threat. There

:39:23.:39:28.

is much more of an issue out there right now with expectations about

:39:29.:39:32.

men and women and I think it is better for men and women and

:39:33.:39:36.

everyone who does not feel like they fit into those categories if we say,

:39:37.:39:41.

let's not have a way that men and women behave, let's talk about how

:39:42.:39:46.

people are, and wherever you are comfortable in that, great. Great

:39:47.:39:49.

news for people who have been excluded from jobs. We've got to

:39:50.:39:59.

leave it there. We are going to talk about Easter next. You can join in

:40:00.:40:08.

the debates online. Tell us what you think about our last question. Have

:40:09.:40:13.

we lost the meaning of Easter. You can e-mail us. It is Easter next

:40:14.:40:22.

Sunday and the London Marathon takes place the following Sunday but we

:40:23.:40:25.

are back on the 30th of April and you can apply to be in the audience

:40:26.:40:33.

for the live edition of our pre-recorded special on

:40:34.:40:37.

humanitarianism. Then we will be in Salford for a programme on

:40:38.:40:42.

globalisation. And London on May the 28th. That is for a special on

:40:43.:40:46.

genetic engineering. Who would have thought an Easter egg

:40:47.:40:49.

hunt could become so controversial? The Prime Minister even

:40:50.:40:52.

interrupted her sales mission to Saudi Arabia to chastise Cadbury

:40:53.:40:57.

and the National Trust for downplaying the significance

:40:58.:41:02.

of Easter in promotions for egg hunts on Trust

:41:03.:41:05.

properties next weekend. The Archbishop of York said

:41:06.:41:06.

it was like spitting on the grave of the firm's Christian

:41:07.:41:09.

founder, John Cadbury. But Cadbury was a Quaker,

:41:10.:41:12.

who do not celebrate either And the name Easter derives

:41:13.:41:20.

from the Germanic Pagan goddess Eostre, whose lights at dawn may

:41:21.:41:24.

or may not have been carried by hares but who certainly

:41:25.:41:27.

represented spring fecundity. Yet to many Christians,

:41:28.:41:33.

Easter, which commemorates the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

:41:34.:41:35.

is the most important Have we lost the real

:41:36.:41:37.

meaning of Easter? I will start with you, Sarah. I saw

:41:38.:41:49.

you trying to come in and I did not have a chance to come to you. It is

:41:50.:42:08.

about fecundity, basically. Your -- it is a lovely manifestation of

:42:09.:42:13.

fertility and fecundity. Our question is writing off the back of

:42:14.:42:17.

it? In Easter there has always been a celebration of spring and renewal.

:42:18.:42:25.

Many scholarly debates and for hundreds of years it has been used

:42:26.:42:29.

at the resurrection day. But what it brings in the Christian sense is the

:42:30.:42:37.

renewal of humankind. Nature is a renewed in springtime. But Easter is

:42:38.:42:44.

the biggest invitation that has been issued to humankind which is to be

:42:45.:42:50.

called into the life of God. So the resurrection when Jesus comes back

:42:51.:42:53.

from the dead, he does not just come back as a human person who is divine

:42:54.:42:57.

comedy comes back as what we will be. It is a sign of who we will

:42:58.:43:08.

become. So it is either of no significance or it is the most

:43:09.:43:14.

significant of all. The rising of the pagan god is the original so you

:43:15.:43:23.

can see how this tags onto it. There is a prefiguring in pagan tradition

:43:24.:43:29.

of Christian celebration but there is also Passover. The most important

:43:30.:43:39.

thing about it, obviously if you're French or Spanish you would be

:43:40.:43:44.

calling it something else, which refers to that. The important thing

:43:45.:43:50.

about it is Christ is sacrificed so that we can enter into the life of

:43:51.:43:57.

God. The dues were taken into freedom. You know the four cups that

:43:58.:44:04.

are drunk at the Passover feast... Can we come back to that? If we do,

:44:05.:44:14.

I will hold you to that thought. Let's not go into the origins. I

:44:15.:44:23.

know that you disagree with these. Should it be about Jesus dying on

:44:24.:44:29.

the cross? The point is as human beings we look at our natural world

:44:30.:44:35.

around us and we see the natural cycles of birth, death and rebirth.

:44:36.:44:40.

All the fates have a concept of that and a celebration of that. Easter

:44:41.:44:43.

happens to be the Christian version of that. There are other pagan

:44:44.:44:51.

faiths that celebrate this renewal of life. It seems that we should

:44:52.:44:58.

celebrate that we have these same concepts.

:44:59.:45:05.

Rather than involving ourselves in squabbling over who is festival

:45:06.:45:10.

proceeded who's and which came first, the chicken or the egg? Is

:45:11.:45:17.

fecundity and fertility imported? At this time of year, the earth is

:45:18.:45:22.

growing and you can see the plants growing with renewed vigour, and

:45:23.:45:27.

what we are doing as human beings is looking at the natural world and

:45:28.:45:30.

seeing ourselves reflected in that. We want a new projects, to spring

:45:31.:45:37.

clean, to celebrate life. You could have been John four cups, you see, I

:45:38.:45:42.

did it, and you can bent on creme eggs. Will you be having an Easter

:45:43.:45:51.

egg? Not sure. If you look at the southern hemisphere, Easter does not

:45:52.:45:57.

begin spring. The idea of the spring equinox, the full moon, it happens

:45:58.:46:00.

to work with European countries where Christianity evolved. And the

:46:01.:46:09.

Middle East. In South Africa they are going into winter in April. What

:46:10.:46:15.

I do want to say about Easter is that for Christians there is a

:46:16.:46:19.

belief that new beginnings are possible in life after periods of

:46:20.:46:21.

hardship and struggle and the dark Knight of the soul. There is a new

:46:22.:46:26.

beginning in your life and used it symbolises the possibility that new

:46:27.:46:29.

beginnings can happen and I think that is what Christians want people

:46:30.:46:34.

to know and that is an important value to keep hold of in our

:46:35.:46:38.

society. It is interesting to have a theological debate about where it

:46:39.:46:44.

all comes from. I think most of your viewers at home are wondering when

:46:45.:46:48.

they get their Easter egg. The fact is that Jesus did not emerge from an

:46:49.:46:52.

egg and neither did any of the pagan deities. At a fundamental

:46:53.:46:59.

evolutionary level! As long as these things are optional, fine. If people

:47:00.:47:03.

want to celebrate by going to church, the synagogue, the mask,

:47:04.:47:05.

pagan events, whatever they want to go to, fine. But the problem always

:47:06.:47:11.

comes in when it becomes compulsory. You should do this or that. Like in

:47:12.:47:17.

Saudi Arabia? Exactly. And like a lot of the places we have talked

:47:18.:47:20.

about where religion is not optional and religion has always got to be

:47:21.:47:24.

optional. If you want to spend the long weekend with your family eating

:47:25.:47:28.

chocolate and hopping around the garden like a rabbit, I don't know

:47:29.:47:31.

what it means but have a great time. And if you want to spend it doing

:47:32.:47:36.

something else, it should be your choice. I find the pagan origins of

:47:37.:47:43.

the word Easter very interesting because when you study anthropology

:47:44.:47:48.

you notice how Christianity comes in to different cultures and they do

:47:49.:47:55.

adopt the different culture, and translated Christianity into the

:47:56.:48:02.

symbols of that culture. That has perhaps slightly happened in this

:48:03.:48:06.

country. The fact is that we have had a Christian Easter for hundreds

:48:07.:48:11.

of years. I also feel that Christianity is a fundamental part

:48:12.:48:15.

of western civilisation. A lot of the things that we take for granted,

:48:16.:48:19.

like Easter, but a lot of the things to do with human rights, they are

:48:20.:48:24.

rooted in Christianity. And I do think that we should acknowledge our

:48:25.:48:32.

Christian roots. Many of us don't have Christian roots. I think

:48:33.:48:36.

western civilisation does have very Christian roots. Sexism is rooted in

:48:37.:48:47.

Christianity. Christianity is... Wait a minute! We have been around

:48:48.:48:52.

as a species for hundreds of thousands of years. What would you

:48:53.:49:02.

like to say? Are you a quicker? -- Quaker. The reason that John Cadbury

:49:03.:49:07.

would not have rolled in his grave is because Quakers believe that

:49:08.:49:11.

every day is holy and Christmas and Easter are no more holy than the day

:49:12.:49:17.

that we are on today. So chocolate everyday! The reason that the church

:49:18.:49:26.

opens up the season of Lent... I don't think that lady has finished.

:49:27.:49:31.

Sorry about that. The idea that every day is God's day means that we

:49:32.:49:35.

should be living that way and respecting God in everyone every

:49:36.:49:40.

day. What a better world that would make it. I wish we could leave it

:49:41.:49:45.

there but we have got another nine minutes! I might have to talk about

:49:46.:49:55.

the four cups! Peter? This is a really important point. What you are

:49:56.:49:59.

hearing here is essentially a lament for the decline of the church. Less

:50:00.:50:04.

than 5% of people in this country go to church. We are nominally

:50:05.:50:08.

Christian country but actually we are not really. What you are hearing

:50:09.:50:12.

here is a lament for the fact that not enough people go to church and

:50:13.:50:17.

subscribe to belief in the resurrection and a narrow Christian

:50:18.:50:21.

version of Easter. But to take the Lady's point here, if I bring my

:50:22.:50:24.

family together and we enjoy the daffodils and the roast lamb and

:50:25.:50:28.

hunting the odd Easter egg, does that bring more like or darkness to

:50:29.:50:33.

the world? It brings more like that we should ultimately embrace that.

:50:34.:50:37.

Which is not to say that the Christian side shouldn't celebrate

:50:38.:50:40.

solemnly. The lady there with the brown top. Hello? I think we missed

:50:41.:50:47.

the fundamental point. It is about putting your disco pants on and

:50:48.:50:50.

sharing and celebrating commonality is because in society today it seems

:50:51.:50:54.

to me that we concentrate more on what divides us than what brings us

:50:55.:50:58.

together and that is what we need to be looking at. That is definitely a

:50:59.:51:02.

theme that we have picked up on in the other debates as well. We are

:51:03.:51:08.

imposing linguistics and let's just dispense with that. What is

:51:09.:51:11.

important is what we are describing and talking about. What we have got

:51:12.:51:15.

here amongst many of the faiths is a concept that we all share, the idea

:51:16.:51:19.

of renewal of life and growth. Who doesn't want to celebrate that?

:51:20.:51:24.

Whether you are atheist or of faith or otherwise. It relates back to

:51:25.:51:29.

what you were saying about language. It is the language that we choose

:51:30.:51:36.

for people as a matter of courtesy. Do you see the connection? There is

:51:37.:51:39.

some connection in allowing space for everyone and however they wish

:51:40.:51:43.

to practice their particular faith. There is often contention at the

:51:44.:51:46.

heart of religious debate about to has the most right and who will

:51:47.:51:49.

ultimately succeed in whatever cosmic battle there is about life,

:51:50.:51:57.

death and rebirth. Ultimately it is giving people the linguistic

:51:58.:52:01.

flexibility to enjoy whatever practices they have, because it is

:52:02.:52:03.

counter-productive to have a continuing fight than to celebrate.

:52:04.:52:07.

My particular faith is Buddhism, as we celebrate the birth of blood at

:52:08.:52:12.

this time again, so religions around the world are tied to this part of

:52:13.:52:20.

the season. -- the birth of Buddha. To me it is much simpler than all of

:52:21.:52:26.

this. Experts are becoming less important in this country. They are

:52:27.:52:31.

saying that Christians between 2010 and 2050 will decrease to 45%. If

:52:32.:52:37.

the true meaning of Easter is really the Christian meaning and companies

:52:38.:52:44.

will target the 100%, then surely the meaning of Christianity will

:52:45.:52:47.

also decline and that will happen across other Christian countries,

:52:48.:52:50.

like the Netherlands and France. We will go over there. Hello. I do

:52:51.:52:59.

believe that each holiday that comes from a religious holiday comes to

:53:00.:53:04.

remind us about the spirituality that we have lost at which brings us

:53:05.:53:11.

together. I think dividing us by Christians and Buddhism and

:53:12.:53:14.

everything else is just culture. At the end of the day we are all

:53:15.:53:20.

spiritual beings. When a holy day comes called Easter, it reminds you

:53:21.:53:27.

to be kind, and... To look out for your fellow human beings? Why not do

:53:28.:53:30.

what the Americans do with Christmas and have happy holidays? Instead of

:53:31.:53:35.

happy Easter. Would you go with that. I don't think you would. I

:53:36.:53:40.

wouldn't. This expression of looking out for your fellow human beings and

:53:41.:53:45.

being kind to each other. This is rooted in Christianity, love your

:53:46.:53:48.

neighbour as yourself. It is! It predates religion. No, it doesn't.

:53:49.:53:55.

There are different parts of the world which don't have a Christian

:53:56.:53:59.

basis and they don't have it actually the same moral structure --

:54:00.:54:06.

exactly the same moral structure. Even if it were the case that

:54:07.:54:13.

Christian somehow behaved better because of this, the idea are

:54:14.:54:16.

behaving better because you are terrified of an all-powerful deity,

:54:17.:54:20.

that is not morality, that is fear. That is no way to behave. The Quaker

:54:21.:54:31.

lady. Sorry to call you that! I don't know your name. My name is

:54:32.:54:38.

Trish. Yes, I am getting that voice in my head telling me that. The

:54:39.:54:48.

golden rule is found in almost every religion that predates Christianity

:54:49.:54:52.

and is subsequently Christianity. Treating one another with respect as

:54:53.:54:55.

if there is that of God in each person is the way we should be

:54:56.:54:58.

living and respect for everyone is necessary. I am really surprised

:54:59.:55:10.

that of the three debates this has been the most heated! Does anybody

:55:11.:55:14.

really care? I am interested to know. Any Christian here, does

:55:15.:55:19.

anybody care about chocolate eggs and a giant rabbit promoting

:55:20.:55:23.

childhood obesity? Really, why does that matter? Because it might mask

:55:24.:55:28.

the importance of that great invitation that we have received to

:55:29.:55:34.

be brought out of the slavery of sin and into the light of Christ where

:55:35.:55:39.

he gives us the power to enter into a divine life. I want to spread the

:55:40.:55:48.

love. When consumerism becomes our God, that is a problem, and we just

:55:49.:55:52.

want the story to be heard and the news to be known. I think if people

:55:53.:55:58.

knew it, they would be at peace. Quiet, everyone. Andrew? I just want

:55:59.:56:03.

to comment briefly on the irony of the fact that Theresa May was

:56:04.:56:06.

defending the integrity of Easter eggs while she was trying to sell

:56:07.:56:15.

weapons to a country that abuses human rights. Slam dunk! The fact of

:56:16.:56:22.

the matter is that Jesus was crucified by an empire that cared

:56:23.:56:29.

more about trade than human rights. So all things are interrelated, is

:56:30.:56:33.

that what we are saying? Easter is not about bunnies and eggs and I

:56:34.:56:36.

worked on a farm and there is nothing glamorous about them.

:56:37.:56:40.

Cadbury is a great company but what I care about is an Easter Christian,

:56:41.:56:47.

if I can call myself that, Cadbury is paying corporate tax and not

:56:48.:56:51.

using child labour in the production of cocoa and that is what I care

:56:52.:56:54.

about, not the bunnies. Even though I like bunnies. We are interweaving

:56:55.:57:02.

all the debates and I am liking this. We will bring it all together

:57:03.:57:06.

at the end. Can I quickly argue a point about what the lady at the

:57:07.:57:10.

front was saying about moral behaviour and Christianity being

:57:11.:57:15.

interlinked? Two points. Surely that is just human nature anyway? Also I

:57:16.:57:22.

have known a lot of religious people use it as an excuse to justify

:57:23.:57:27.

themselves, whether or not it is gossiping about their neighbours, or

:57:28.:57:31.

if you go to a more extreme version where they just use religion as an

:57:32.:57:35.

excuse. Religion and morality, we have been there before and we will

:57:36.:57:40.

go there again and we have done a little bit today. John? 54 million

:57:41.:57:44.

people die every year. About 3 million of those is through obesity

:57:45.:57:54.

and type 2 diabetes. 650,000 people died violently every year. Only

:57:55.:57:59.

130,000 of those through what we would conceive as warfare. That is

:58:00.:58:05.

too many, agreed. But it seems to me that sugar may be more lethal for us

:58:06.:58:12.

than gunpowder. Interesting point. How long have we got? Ten seconds on

:58:13.:58:20.

the four cups. The fourth cup was brought into the land that is

:58:21.:58:24.

promised. Jesus didn't drink it. He went out and he drank it and he was

:58:25.:58:29.

crucified. That was the drinking of the fourth cup, he was crucified.

:58:30.:58:33.

The good news is that in spite of sugar we all die and the news is

:58:34.:58:36.

that we can live forever with God and that is the meaning of

:58:37.:58:40.

Christianity. I am a man of my word! Thank you for watching.

:58:41.:58:45.

As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.

:58:46.:58:47.

We're not on next week because it's Easter but we'll be back from York

:58:48.:58:51.

Have a great Sunday and enjoy your Easter.

:58:52.:59:06.

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:59:07.:59:09.

Every two minutes, someone in Britain is reported missing.

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