Browse content similar to Episode 18. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Today on The Big Questions, globalisation - | 0:00:02 | 0:00:03 | |
will it make the world a better place for all of us? | 0:00:03 | 0:00:06 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:16 | 0:00:18 | |
Good morning! I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. | 0:00:19 | 0:00:23 | |
Today we're back at Oasis Academy, MediaCityUK in Salford | 0:00:23 | 0:00:26 | |
to debate one very big question - will globalisation make the world | 0:00:26 | 0:00:30 | |
a better place? | 0:00:30 | 0:00:31 | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | 0:00:31 | 0:00:34 | |
Right. In the days of empire, Britain ran a global economy. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:42 | |
Now we are increasingly at the mercy of one that is outside | 0:00:42 | 0:00:46 | |
the control of any nation state or international body. | 0:00:46 | 0:00:50 | |
Globalisation has put the world's biggest multinational corporations | 0:00:50 | 0:00:54 | |
into the driving seat of international trade, | 0:00:54 | 0:00:57 | |
technological progress and worldwide prosperity. | 0:00:57 | 0:01:01 | |
The companies and the people who own shares in them or work | 0:01:01 | 0:01:05 | |
for them may be doing very nicely, | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
but it's harder to share their huge wealth through tax across | 0:01:07 | 0:01:10 | |
the wider societies where they operate, | 0:01:10 | 0:01:12 | |
or to get them to pay for the costs | 0:01:12 | 0:01:14 | |
they impose on the environment or the benefits they take | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
from spending by governments | 0:01:17 | 0:01:18 | |
on education, health and infrastructure. | 0:01:18 | 0:01:21 | |
Well, to debate whether globalisation is good for all of us, | 0:01:21 | 0:01:24 | |
we have assembled an array - what an array - | 0:01:24 | 0:01:26 | |
of distinguished economists, pioneering environmentalists, | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
seasoned writers and commentators | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
and campaigners for workers' rights, | 0:01:31 | 0:01:32 | |
and against exploiting global poverty. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:35 | |
And you can join in too on Twitter or online by logging onto... | 0:01:35 | 0:01:39 | |
And follow the links to the online discussion. | 0:01:42 | 0:01:44 | |
Lots of encouragement, contributions from our excellent audience | 0:01:44 | 0:01:48 | |
here in Salford, which was once the hub of global trade | 0:01:48 | 0:01:51 | |
in the days of empire. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:53 | |
Will globalisation make the world a better place? | 0:01:53 | 0:01:57 | |
I wonder if we're at a transitional point in human history, | 0:01:57 | 0:02:00 | |
Guy Standing, because of course in the 19th century | 0:02:00 | 0:02:04 | |
the industrial proletariat - oppressed, exploited - | 0:02:04 | 0:02:09 | |
Marxism was a response to that cry of rage, do you think there | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
are any comparisons, are we at a similar transitional point? | 0:02:13 | 0:02:16 | |
There are comparisons. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:18 | |
I think today we are in the middle point of a global transformation. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:23 | |
The early phase of globalisation, | 0:02:23 | 0:02:26 | |
what you have described as globalisation, began in the 1980s | 0:02:26 | 0:02:30 | |
with what we economics professors call "neoliberalism". | 0:02:30 | 0:02:35 | |
It wasn't called that then. | 0:02:35 | 0:02:37 | |
But it was dominated by an ideology of believing in free markets, | 0:02:37 | 0:02:43 | |
privatisation, commodification and the dismantling of institutions | 0:02:43 | 0:02:49 | |
that stood against the market, | 0:02:49 | 0:02:51 | |
what we call social solidarity institutions. | 0:02:51 | 0:02:54 | |
And that period, | 0:02:54 | 0:02:55 | |
where Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan were the instruments | 0:02:55 | 0:03:00 | |
of putting that into force, | 0:03:00 | 0:03:02 | |
gradually gave way to a domination by the big financial corporations, | 0:03:02 | 0:03:08 | |
the Goldman Sachses and the JP Morgan | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
and so on in Wall Street, and at the same time, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
it's not quite correct to say that this | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
has been out of control by international institutions. | 0:03:18 | 0:03:22 | |
What happened is, the architecture of globalisation changed. | 0:03:22 | 0:03:27 | |
I've worked in Geneva for many years, and | 0:03:27 | 0:03:30 | |
it moved from a point where the World Trade Organisation was | 0:03:30 | 0:03:35 | |
one of the midwives of globalisation to the point where Wipo - | 0:03:35 | 0:03:40 | |
the World Intellectual Property Organization - has gradually | 0:03:40 | 0:03:44 | |
been used to entrench intellectual property rights. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:48 | |
So we've actually moved from that neoliberalism | 0:03:48 | 0:03:52 | |
into a period of what I call rentier capitalism, | 0:03:52 | 0:03:55 | |
where the returns to property ownership are triumphant | 0:03:55 | 0:03:59 | |
over free markets, and in particular, | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
intellectual property rights have multiplied hugely since 1995, | 0:04:02 | 0:04:07 | |
giving billions and billions of dollars, | 0:04:07 | 0:04:10 | |
euros or pounds to the plutocratic corporations that own | 0:04:10 | 0:04:14 | |
the patents and the copyrights and so on, | 0:04:14 | 0:04:16 | |
and taking things out of the market, so at the moment, | 0:04:16 | 0:04:19 | |
it's a lie to say we have a free-market economy, | 0:04:19 | 0:04:22 | |
but to conclude the point, I think globally... | 0:04:22 | 0:04:27 | |
globalisation has benefited millions and millions of people, | 0:04:27 | 0:04:31 | |
raising their incomes, | 0:04:31 | 0:04:33 | |
but in Western Europe and in Britain in particular, | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
we have actually seen declining real wages, stagnant real wages... | 0:04:36 | 0:04:40 | |
-OK. -..and declining living standards. | 0:04:40 | 0:04:42 | |
I want to take it to the last point. | 0:04:42 | 0:04:44 | |
It's so fascinating what you said, and we've got so much to get into, | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
and there are so many profound implications to all of this. | 0:04:47 | 0:04:52 | |
Linda Yueh, just on that last point of Guy's, | 0:04:52 | 0:04:57 | |
take it to the streets, take it out to our viewers, globalisation, | 0:04:57 | 0:05:01 | |
in what ways have they won - or will win - | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
and in what ways are they the losers? | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
I think for people in Britain | 0:05:10 | 0:05:11 | |
there have been benefits from globalisation, | 0:05:11 | 0:05:13 | |
but there are also those who have been left behind by this process. | 0:05:13 | 0:05:16 | |
So globalisation, if you think of it as opening up | 0:05:16 | 0:05:19 | |
to the transmission of ideas, of people, | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
of resources across national borders, I think there are reasons | 0:05:22 | 0:05:26 | |
to think we have benefited from, say, technology from America. | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
Well, for instance, take the iPhone, or any smartphone. 20 years ago... | 0:05:30 | 0:05:35 | |
-It's revolutionised the world. -Exactly. | 0:05:35 | 0:05:37 | |
20 years ago, Nicky, only a fifth of the Western world had access | 0:05:37 | 0:05:43 | |
to a mobile phone, 1% of the developing world. | 0:05:43 | 0:05:46 | |
Today, I would venture a guess everyone here | 0:05:46 | 0:05:48 | |
has some type of mobile phone and device, | 0:05:48 | 0:05:51 | |
so I think in that way, an American product made in China, | 0:05:51 | 0:05:55 | |
or a Finnish product that's been made in Eastern Europe, | 0:05:55 | 0:05:59 | |
I think we have benefited from that, | 0:05:59 | 0:06:00 | |
but that's not to say that everyone has benefited equally, | 0:06:00 | 0:06:05 | |
because globalisation is tied up | 0:06:05 | 0:06:07 | |
with structural change in the economy. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:09 | |
So we've had deindustrialisation, | 0:06:09 | 0:06:12 | |
we've had issues around those who have benefited more | 0:06:12 | 0:06:17 | |
from this process, owners of capital, I would agree with that, | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
and those who have felt their incomes squeezed and are | 0:06:20 | 0:06:24 | |
working in sectors in which Britain no longer produces as much, | 0:06:24 | 0:06:28 | |
and I think for globalisation and for us to reap the benefits | 0:06:28 | 0:06:34 | |
of globalisation, I think we have to address | 0:06:34 | 0:06:36 | |
those who are left behind. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:37 | |
But not to forget that we in Britain, | 0:06:37 | 0:06:40 | |
especially after Brexit, talk a lot about being global, | 0:06:40 | 0:06:43 | |
being open, because being the world's fifth biggest economy | 0:06:43 | 0:06:47 | |
requires being a stakeholder in this global system | 0:06:47 | 0:06:51 | |
and actually working to improve it. | 0:06:51 | 0:06:52 | |
And just very quickly, in the rest of the world, | 0:06:52 | 0:06:55 | |
thinking about audiences beyond Britain, | 0:06:55 | 0:06:58 | |
a billion people have been lifted out of poverty since 1990. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:01 | |
We are actually at a historic point, | 0:07:01 | 0:07:03 | |
where one in ten of the people in the world live in extreme poverty, | 0:07:03 | 0:07:08 | |
on less than 1.90 a day, | 0:07:08 | 0:07:09 | |
adjusted for what a dollar buys in that country. | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
We have actually not been at this point before, | 0:07:13 | 0:07:15 | |
and that has to do with the opening up of the emerging markets, | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
like China, India, Eastern Europe. | 0:07:18 | 0:07:21 | |
So I think, overall, | 0:07:21 | 0:07:23 | |
we are living through a tremendous period of change, | 0:07:23 | 0:07:25 | |
and I think for all of us in this country, | 0:07:25 | 0:07:27 | |
it is about how we can put in institutions to manage that change | 0:07:27 | 0:07:31 | |
so it can be shared more equitably and have more buy-in in the future. | 0:07:31 | 0:07:34 | |
And Katy Wright from Oxfam, it's lifted people out of poverty | 0:07:34 | 0:07:37 | |
in a way we could not have imagined, more than anything | 0:07:37 | 0:07:39 | |
ever has or will, and that's a tremendous positive of it, | 0:07:39 | 0:07:43 | |
but if I go back to our friend Karl Marx, | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
who we mentioned earlier on, | 0:07:46 | 0:07:48 | |
he did talk about the spread of capitalism across the globe | 0:07:48 | 0:07:52 | |
in search of new markets, that has absolutely happened, | 0:07:52 | 0:07:56 | |
what he didn't predict was what I've just said, | 0:07:56 | 0:07:58 | |
that so many people would be lifted out of poverty. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:01 | |
How do you see it? | 0:08:01 | 0:08:03 | |
I think that absolutely has to be accepted and recognised | 0:08:03 | 0:08:08 | |
that you need drivers of economic growth if people are going to | 0:08:08 | 0:08:11 | |
lift themselves out of poverty, and as Linda said, | 0:08:11 | 0:08:13 | |
we have seen people being lifted out of poverty. | 0:08:13 | 0:08:16 | |
But there are several things to say. | 0:08:16 | 0:08:19 | |
The first is, you're talking about lifting someone up from | 0:08:19 | 0:08:23 | |
1.90 a day to just over that, and then you say, | 0:08:23 | 0:08:25 | |
"Right, they're out of poverty, job done." | 0:08:25 | 0:08:27 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:08:27 | 0:08:29 | |
A colleague of mine is just back from working with | 0:08:29 | 0:08:33 | |
an Oxfam programme in Myanmar, | 0:08:33 | 0:08:35 | |
so he's talking to four sisters and a cousin | 0:08:35 | 0:08:38 | |
who work in one of Myanmar's export processing zones, | 0:08:38 | 0:08:41 | |
so making garments in the garment industry. | 0:08:41 | 0:08:43 | |
They live in a room, | 0:08:43 | 0:08:45 | |
you can't ignore the smell of sewage outside their tiny room in the city. | 0:08:45 | 0:08:49 | |
They're earning 2.80 a day, | 0:08:49 | 0:08:51 | |
which isn't enough to live on, especially if they get sick. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:54 | |
But they don't get sick leave, | 0:08:54 | 0:08:55 | |
they've nothing to pay for medicines, they work six hours a day | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
11 days a week, so they give their whole lives for this 2.80 a day, | 0:08:59 | 0:09:04 | |
which is called an opportunity - which it is, in relative sense. | 0:09:04 | 0:09:09 | |
And this isn't an accident, | 0:09:09 | 0:09:11 | |
this is exactly how these industries are designed to work. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:15 | |
-And it's the garments we are happy to buy, isn't it? -Exactly. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:18 | |
And also, they know how we are living more than ever before, | 0:09:18 | 0:09:21 | |
don't they? Because they see it in the way we communicate now. | 0:09:21 | 0:09:25 | |
Well, absolutely, there is this idea - go to the city, | 0:09:25 | 0:09:27 | |
-get this opportunity... -And they want those opportunities. | 0:09:27 | 0:09:31 | |
Of course they do, because it's better than nothing, | 0:09:31 | 0:09:34 | |
but there's a fascinating excerpt from the Asian Development Bank - | 0:09:34 | 0:09:38 | |
so an organisation that is supposed to help people get out of poverty, | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
and it's talking about Cambodia's export processing zones, | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
and saying, "These jobs are absolutely fitted for women. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
"They have the nimble fingers and patience for these kind | 0:09:48 | 0:09:50 | |
"of tasks and they don't strike and disrupt production." | 0:09:50 | 0:09:53 | |
You can imagine that being said about children here | 0:09:53 | 0:09:56 | |
in Manchester 200 years ago, working in the factories, | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
and this is the explicit policy, and it comes... | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
Globalisation and opening up, absolutely a good thing, | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
but when it's married to these kind of policies | 0:10:05 | 0:10:07 | |
that Guy was talking about, | 0:10:07 | 0:10:08 | |
wrapped up in the neoliberalism agenda, | 0:10:08 | 0:10:11 | |
that's when you get... | 0:10:11 | 0:10:13 | |
It's basically a really missed opportunity when it could | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
have taken a lot more people out of poverty. | 0:10:15 | 0:10:17 | |
I think we should be very, very careful about saying, | 0:10:17 | 0:10:20 | |
"Well, that's just a billion people." | 0:10:20 | 0:10:22 | |
A billion people who can send their children to a better school, | 0:10:22 | 0:10:25 | |
who can plan for the future, who can put money away in case they | 0:10:25 | 0:10:28 | |
get sick when they couldn't have done that before. | 0:10:28 | 0:10:30 | |
I think we have to be very careful about treating people | 0:10:30 | 0:10:33 | |
like statistics, because they're not, they're real people. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:36 | |
I really, really disagree with Guy's numbers, actually. | 0:10:36 | 0:10:38 | |
I think if you look at the data, the official data, | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
the UK has become much richer in the last 30 years. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:44 | |
We have become about twice as rich as we were, in real terms, | 0:10:44 | 0:10:47 | |
in inflation-adjusted terms, | 0:10:47 | 0:10:49 | |
and that doesn't even account for how much cheaper things are, | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
because wages and incomes and living standards are both about | 0:10:52 | 0:10:54 | |
how much you earn and what you can buy with that, | 0:10:54 | 0:10:57 | |
and we know that trade is best for people at the bottom. | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
Trade is profoundly good, it's most good, | 0:11:00 | 0:11:02 | |
for people at the bottom of society, | 0:11:02 | 0:11:04 | |
because it means that better food is available to them | 0:11:04 | 0:11:07 | |
for less money, better clothes are available to them for less money, | 0:11:07 | 0:11:10 | |
and the data is really, really striking. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:13 | |
Come back quickly on that, Guy. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:14 | |
Guy, if you would just let me finish. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:16 | |
People at the bottom are about 70% better off, | 0:11:16 | 0:11:19 | |
or 170% better off than they would be without trade. | 0:11:19 | 0:11:22 | |
People at the top are only about 30% better off | 0:11:22 | 0:11:24 | |
than they would be without trade. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
Trade is for the poor, and it's lifting not just the poor | 0:11:26 | 0:11:28 | |
in the developing world up, but the poor in our country up as well. | 0:11:28 | 0:11:32 | |
SCATTERED APPLAUSE | 0:11:32 | 0:11:34 | |
-This could be an interesting discussion. -Well, I hope so! | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
I think that most of us here would be in favour of globalisation | 0:11:37 | 0:11:43 | |
in terms of opening up markets, | 0:11:43 | 0:11:46 | |
which has certainly increased the growth rate | 0:11:46 | 0:11:49 | |
of China and India and so on. | 0:11:49 | 0:11:51 | |
I think if you look at the case of Britain, | 0:11:51 | 0:11:53 | |
and across the world, in fact, what's been happening is that | 0:11:53 | 0:11:57 | |
the share of income being created | 0:11:57 | 0:11:59 | |
going to capital has been shooting up, | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
the share going to labour has been shooting down. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:03 | |
And if you look at the United States, Germany, France, | 0:12:03 | 0:12:08 | |
I've just come from Spain, | 0:12:08 | 0:12:10 | |
average real wages have been stagnant for 30 years. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:15 | |
-That's not true. -It's a fact. -Look at the official data, | 0:12:15 | 0:12:18 | |
go onto the ONS website and they will tell you you're wrong. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:21 | |
I assure you. And what has been happening | 0:12:21 | 0:12:23 | |
is an extraordinary phenomenon, is that when | 0:12:23 | 0:12:25 | |
productivity goes up, it used to be the case that average wages went up. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:29 | |
But in numerous countries, | 0:12:29 | 0:12:31 | |
productivity has been going up and real wages have been stagnating. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:35 | |
So we have an income distribution problem... | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
Why is that happening, then? | 0:12:38 | 0:12:40 | |
We'll get Sam back in a minute, but in a nutshell? | 0:12:40 | 0:12:42 | |
In a nutshell, the returns to property - financial property, | 0:12:42 | 0:12:47 | |
intellectual property and physical property - have been going up, | 0:12:47 | 0:12:51 | |
the tax rates on profits have been going down, | 0:12:51 | 0:12:55 | |
whereas the returns to labour have been going down, | 0:12:55 | 0:12:58 | |
and it is partly to do with the technological revolution | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
that's taking place, partly to do with labour market flexibility, | 0:13:01 | 0:13:07 | |
which has weakened the bargaining position of people | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
relying on wages for their earnings. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:12 | |
OK, Sam, do you want to come back in a minute? | 0:13:12 | 0:13:14 | |
But, Rose, I see you were bouncing to come in there. | 0:13:14 | 0:13:17 | |
I'd like to pick up on the two examples of the goods that | 0:13:17 | 0:13:19 | |
are available to us, which is the clothing and the mobile phones. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:23 | |
For example, with the clothing, the downward pressure on wages | 0:13:23 | 0:13:28 | |
is really affecting people in many different countries. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:32 | |
In Myanmar, they're competing particularly with Cambodia | 0:13:32 | 0:13:37 | |
to lower wage costs in order to produce the clothing cheaply, | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
so you get this race to the bottom, which is a key factor | 0:13:41 | 0:13:46 | |
in globalisation, and as well as having lower labour costs, | 0:13:46 | 0:13:51 | |
you've got tremendous public expenditure on | 0:13:51 | 0:13:55 | |
the infrastructure to support these corporations, | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
like these special economic zones in Myanmar. I gather there's | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
a new one coming, even bigger, and it will be public expenditure, | 0:14:01 | 0:14:04 | |
with lucrative contracts to the corporations to build the ports, | 0:14:04 | 0:14:08 | |
the roads, the warehouses, etc. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:11 | |
So you've got the public sector supporting globalisation | 0:14:11 | 0:14:16 | |
but often getting very low wages in return, | 0:14:16 | 0:14:18 | |
and with the mobile phones you have got... | 0:14:18 | 0:14:21 | |
Tends to be scouring the globe for low-cost minerals, | 0:14:21 | 0:14:25 | |
where it can be the case now that the tax incentives | 0:14:25 | 0:14:29 | |
and the other subsidies to the corporations that are | 0:14:29 | 0:14:32 | |
extracting the minerals, they can be not...just not making | 0:14:32 | 0:14:36 | |
a revenue from the exports, but can actually be making a net loss. | 0:14:36 | 0:14:39 | |
And then you've got downward pressure on wages, | 0:14:39 | 0:14:42 | |
terribly, as well. | 0:14:42 | 0:14:43 | |
And huge environmental issues as well. | 0:14:43 | 0:14:45 | |
Linda, this is bad for a lot of people, | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
but what about the argument that it's better than it was before | 0:14:48 | 0:14:52 | |
and it's better than it otherwise would have been? | 0:14:52 | 0:14:54 | |
I think that's exactly probably the position that | 0:14:54 | 0:14:57 | |
a lot of economists would say - | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
that the opening up of the global economy... | 0:15:00 | 0:15:02 | |
Just think about the opposite scenario where you had | 0:15:02 | 0:15:05 | |
a world divided by the Iron Curtain, | 0:15:05 | 0:15:07 | |
you had a world where countries looked inward | 0:15:07 | 0:15:11 | |
rather than engaging externally, so I completely agree, | 0:15:11 | 0:15:16 | |
there are huge distributional impact, | 0:15:16 | 0:15:18 | |
especially on wages, in traded sectors, | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
and I think of course the job isn't done on poverty. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:24 | |
I think that line is quite arbitrary about extreme poverty, | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
but it is also worth stressing that this kind of progress | 0:15:27 | 0:15:31 | |
has been possible through globalisation and the combination | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
of many, many other things, including technology, | 0:15:34 | 0:15:39 | |
but that doesn't mean that we should say it's all good or bad. | 0:15:39 | 0:15:45 | |
For every good economic gain, | 0:15:45 | 0:15:47 | |
we have to think about the consequences, the left behind, | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
the downward wage pressure, the impact on the environment. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:54 | |
All of those things pose a policy challenge as to how | 0:15:54 | 0:15:58 | |
you address that, but we should never think the world today | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
is not as good as it was in the 1980s, | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
before the real opening up of many, many economies in the world - | 0:16:04 | 0:16:09 | |
with a couple of exceptions. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:10 | |
I'm not going to say everyone is there, North Korea, for instance, | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
has not opened up, and that might be an example of a country... | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
We probably shouldn't spend too much time on it! | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:16:19 | 0:16:21 | |
There are countries that haven't opened up. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
David, I will come to you in a second. | 0:16:23 | 0:16:26 | |
But, Tom, I suppose what some people are crying for here is - | 0:16:26 | 0:16:29 | |
what's the word? - compassionate capitalism? | 0:16:29 | 0:16:33 | |
Compassionate globalisation, or is that a contradiction in terms? | 0:16:33 | 0:16:37 | |
Well, I think it's just not really what we should be focused on. | 0:16:37 | 0:16:40 | |
One of the big problems, especially in relation to the Third World, | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
is this obsession with things like sustainability. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:46 | |
Sustainable development, and the form that often takes | 0:16:46 | 0:16:49 | |
is by various intergovernmental bodies trying to suppress | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
the things which generate wealth, | 0:16:52 | 0:16:54 | |
which generate new industrial revolutions, | 0:16:54 | 0:16:56 | |
and I think one of the big problems that happens in this debate | 0:16:56 | 0:16:59 | |
is that what gets grouped together as globalisation is seen as | 0:16:59 | 0:17:02 | |
this kind of deterministic, impersonal force, | 0:17:02 | 0:17:04 | |
-whereas a lot of the economic problems... -Inexorable as well. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:07 | |
Exactly. And a lot of the economic problems we experience, | 0:17:07 | 0:17:09 | |
either in Britain or in countries around the world, | 0:17:09 | 0:17:12 | |
have a lot more to do with what's going on domestically, | 0:17:12 | 0:17:14 | |
and are a matter, whether it's in terms | 0:17:14 | 0:17:16 | |
of agitating for more wages or, in this country, | 0:17:16 | 0:17:19 | |
I think the big issue we need to confront is | 0:17:19 | 0:17:22 | |
reckoning with our flat-lining productivity and low pay. | 0:17:22 | 0:17:25 | |
It just treats all these things as if they are deterministic, | 0:17:25 | 0:17:28 | |
impersonal forces that we have no control over whatsoever. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:31 | |
Both sides of the debate sometimes assume that it's | 0:17:31 | 0:17:34 | |
entirely outside forces which shape this, whereas I think we need to, | 0:17:34 | 0:17:37 | |
particularly post-Brexit, | 0:17:37 | 0:17:39 | |
we've got an opportunity to bring that discussion back home. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:41 | |
So, David, have we taken back control here, | 0:17:41 | 0:17:46 | |
or are we kind of a cork bobbing on the sea? | 0:17:46 | 0:17:50 | |
-Well, a bit of both. -NICKY LAUGHS | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
I think globalisation is not a force of nature, | 0:17:52 | 0:17:58 | |
it is a man-made process, lots of man-made processes that have | 0:17:58 | 0:18:03 | |
been going on, and of course, it creates great dilemmas. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:08 | |
The dilemma that we have already talked about, | 0:18:08 | 0:18:10 | |
the fact that it's made everybody richer, | 0:18:10 | 0:18:12 | |
it's made the poor particularly a lot richer in recent years, | 0:18:12 | 0:18:16 | |
with extreme poverty falling to below 10% of the global population. | 0:18:16 | 0:18:20 | |
These are enormous achievements, but it has also, | 0:18:20 | 0:18:25 | |
particularly in the rich world, | 0:18:25 | 0:18:27 | |
changed the atmosphere pretty dramatically. | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
And the group that has done least well out of globalisation | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
are people on middle and low incomes in rich countries, | 0:18:34 | 0:18:37 | |
and that is where European and American populism has risen from. | 0:18:37 | 0:18:43 | |
And what has been going on is, | 0:18:43 | 0:18:45 | |
we have moved into a much more intrusive form of globalisation. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:50 | |
We've had different forms of globalisation going back | 0:18:50 | 0:18:53 | |
hundreds of years, as you said right at the beginning, | 0:18:53 | 0:18:56 | |
the British Empire was a form of globalisation. | 0:18:56 | 0:18:59 | |
But if you look back at the 1970s, | 0:18:59 | 0:19:01 | |
we had something called the Gatt rules. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
And this was mainly between rich countries, | 0:19:04 | 0:19:06 | |
it was mainly for manufacturing goods, there were lots of | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
national vetoes to the international rules | 0:19:09 | 0:19:11 | |
-that were laid down. -General agreements on tariffs and trade. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:14 | |
We then moved to the WTO and it became much more intrusive | 0:19:14 | 0:19:17 | |
-on national sovereignty. -Yes. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:19 | |
And at the same time, we have the same thing in Europe. | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
We echoed and reflected a similar process in the European Union. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:25 | |
It became much more intrusive, with the single market, | 0:19:25 | 0:19:29 | |
with enlargement in particular, which, I think, in retrospect, | 0:19:29 | 0:19:32 | |
it turns out to have been an enormous mistake | 0:19:32 | 0:19:34 | |
and is the reason why we are now leaving the European Union, | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
even though, ironically, | 0:19:37 | 0:19:38 | |
Britain was one of the great promoters of enlargement. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:40 | |
Let me just give you one example of how it has intruded on things | 0:19:40 | 0:19:45 | |
that people thought of as part of their national sacred control. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:51 | |
It's immigration and freedom of movement. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:55 | |
Going back to post-colonial immigration, in the post-war period, | 0:19:55 | 0:19:58 | |
it wasn't popular to begin with but people got used to it, | 0:19:58 | 0:20:02 | |
and in the '80s and '90s, there was a kind of settlement, | 0:20:02 | 0:20:07 | |
a kind of agreement that the political class | 0:20:07 | 0:20:10 | |
reduced the numbers and the population accepted it. | 0:20:10 | 0:20:15 | |
And that is what happened. Numbers came down quite sharply | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
in the '80s and '90s. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
Now, we move to the European immigration, | 0:20:20 | 0:20:22 | |
starting in 2004, we were expecting 15,000 people a year to come, | 0:20:22 | 0:20:25 | |
in fact, about a million and a half people came | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
over a four or five year period. Many, many more than expected... | 0:20:28 | 0:20:31 | |
And Tony Blair acknowledges his own mistakes. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:33 | |
And people looked to Parliament to say, "We don't like this, | 0:20:33 | 0:20:35 | |
"we're not against immigration, we just don't want it on this scale." | 0:20:35 | 0:20:39 | |
And Parliament was unable to do anything about it, | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
and that is the dilemma, that we have a much more intrusive form | 0:20:42 | 0:20:46 | |
of globalisation and so much has been taken out of politics. | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
So much has been depoliticised and handed over to technocrats. | 0:20:50 | 0:20:53 | |
There is a huge elephant in the room here that people have | 0:20:53 | 0:20:56 | |
sort of hinted at, which is technological change. | 0:20:56 | 0:20:58 | |
We are living through the largest technological change | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
in history since the Industrial Revolution, | 0:21:01 | 0:21:03 | |
and almost nobody is aware of how much it's changing our lives. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:06 | |
One estimate says that nine out of the ten manufacturing jobs | 0:21:06 | 0:21:09 | |
that are destroyed are not destroyed by globalisation or trade, | 0:21:09 | 0:21:14 | |
they are destroyed by technology, by us being able to | 0:21:14 | 0:21:16 | |
roboticise manufacturing, and in fact, | 0:21:16 | 0:21:18 | |
the UK manufactures more than it ever has, | 0:21:18 | 0:21:21 | |
we just do it with far fewer workers. | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
But the reason that's so important is because in our history | 0:21:23 | 0:21:26 | |
we have misinterpreted change like this and we have tried to stop it | 0:21:26 | 0:21:30 | |
and thrown up tariffs, and exactly what that did was hurt the poor. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:33 | |
And at the end of the 19th century, | 0:21:33 | 0:21:36 | |
that's what drove the demand for communism, | 0:21:36 | 0:21:38 | |
for fascism and for all of the things that we are facing at | 0:21:38 | 0:21:40 | |
the moment that we really, really don't want to come back. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:43 | |
-We have... -We have to recognise it's technology | 0:21:43 | 0:21:45 | |
driving this change and that is inexorable, | 0:21:45 | 0:21:47 | |
that's something we can't stop. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:49 | |
I want to hear from the audience, | 0:21:49 | 0:21:50 | |
then we're going to talk about the cultural challenges, | 0:21:50 | 0:21:52 | |
which you've led us onto nicely, | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
talking about the immigration over the years. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:56 | |
Does anybody want to say something? You wanted to say something about... | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
Brief comments about globalisation, what it means to you. Yes. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
Well, I speak as a trade unionist, | 0:22:02 | 0:22:04 | |
and rather than the corporate argument, I am more concerned | 0:22:04 | 0:22:08 | |
about the wellbeing of the workforce internationally. | 0:22:08 | 0:22:12 | |
I'm pretty active within the TUC, | 0:22:12 | 0:22:14 | |
and the British TUC have been very effective in working with | 0:22:14 | 0:22:18 | |
the ILO and addressing the exploitation of labour, | 0:22:18 | 0:22:22 | |
even the exploitation of the environment | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
right throughout the world. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:26 | |
And you mentioned earlier, Nicky, | 0:22:26 | 0:22:28 | |
you quoted Marx, I think Marx is right in many ways, | 0:22:28 | 0:22:32 | |
stand up for all, all for one and all for all, | 0:22:32 | 0:22:36 | |
I think we should do that. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
This argument is now an international argument. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
We have seen even in our own country, zero-hour contracts, | 0:22:42 | 0:22:46 | |
the exploitation, | 0:22:46 | 0:22:47 | |
complete lack of health and safety and the very basics that we take... | 0:22:47 | 0:22:51 | |
I just want to move on, has globalisation made that worse? | 0:22:51 | 0:22:53 | |
Is it exacerbating all those problems? | 0:22:53 | 0:22:55 | |
I think globalisation, having exploited even | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
the indigenous peoples in the countries like South America... | 0:22:59 | 0:23:02 | |
Anyone else? Just a quick... | 0:23:02 | 0:23:04 | |
We'll go for you first, then I'll come to you later on. Quick point. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:09 | |
Yes, the downside of globalisation has to be | 0:23:09 | 0:23:12 | |
multinational corporations. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
The downside of this, they are, as the gentleman said, | 0:23:15 | 0:23:19 | |
they are exploiting the labour, child labourers, | 0:23:19 | 0:23:23 | |
the people who are losing in globalisation. | 0:23:23 | 0:23:27 | |
In terms of multicultural companies, | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
those people who are actually making the nice leather Nike shoes, | 0:23:29 | 0:23:35 | |
pair of shoes. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
And these people are really losing, | 0:23:38 | 0:23:40 | |
and if you see that Nike is the winner, the consumer also is | 0:23:40 | 0:23:45 | |
the winner of the globalisation, but those people in the very bottom... | 0:23:45 | 0:23:49 | |
Yeah, because of these corporations, and we will address this, | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
because they are incredibly... | 0:23:52 | 0:23:53 | |
I mean, they're more powerful than many countries. | 0:23:53 | 0:23:56 | |
-Can I...? -I want to move it on if I may, Guy. | 0:23:56 | 0:24:00 | |
Because we want to talk about the cultural issues... | 0:24:00 | 0:24:03 | |
I just wanted to make a point about the technological revolution. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
-We... -We've past that one? | 0:24:06 | 0:24:08 | |
I tell you what, we might come back to it when we talk about | 0:24:08 | 0:24:10 | |
solutions in the future, which is going to be our last section. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
-Keep that thought, if you would. -I'll keep it. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:16 | |
So, yeah, Maya, we haven't heard from you yet. | 0:24:16 | 0:24:18 | |
Let's talk about those cultural challenges, | 0:24:18 | 0:24:20 | |
the globalisation of people, if you like. | 0:24:20 | 0:24:25 | |
People going around the world through history | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 | |
has made the world go round, hasn't it? | 0:24:28 | 0:24:31 | |
But there are people in this country, | 0:24:31 | 0:24:33 | |
and David was speaking about it, | 0:24:33 | 0:24:35 | |
who have seen rapid change in front of their eyes, | 0:24:35 | 0:24:38 | |
and they have also been sneered at | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
by the liberal intelligentsia as racists. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
I think that's a bit of a crude analysis | 0:24:43 | 0:24:45 | |
of what's actually happened. | 0:24:45 | 0:24:46 | |
I think the whole immigration debate needs to be put in | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
a broader context in which migrants have been consistently scapegoated. | 0:24:49 | 0:24:53 | |
We've seen migrants blamed for low pay, | 0:24:53 | 0:24:55 | |
crumbling public services, and what's actually going on, | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 | |
all the evidence shows, from the LSE to the OECD, | 0:24:58 | 0:25:01 | |
that migrants aren't a significant factor in low pay and that | 0:25:01 | 0:25:04 | |
it's underinvestment in our public services | 0:25:04 | 0:25:06 | |
that's leading them to collapse. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:08 | |
So I think that there are a number of things going on with | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
people's cultural anxiety, I think that is a real thing, | 0:25:11 | 0:25:14 | |
I'm not denying that it is, and we need to look at | 0:25:14 | 0:25:16 | |
the other factors alongside immigration. | 0:25:16 | 0:25:18 | |
But just to talk about immigration first, | 0:25:18 | 0:25:20 | |
I think the whole immigration debate needs to be recognised. | 0:25:20 | 0:25:25 | |
Zubaida Haque from the Runnymede Trust has talked about this - | 0:25:25 | 0:25:28 | |
that anti-immigration sentiment is not always correlating with | 0:25:28 | 0:25:31 | |
the numbers of immigrants in the country. | 0:25:31 | 0:25:32 | |
So if you go back to 1978, you will see that when net immigration | 0:25:32 | 0:25:37 | |
was zero, 70% of people in Britain said that they felt their culture | 0:25:37 | 0:25:42 | |
was being swamped by migrants. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:44 | |
So what that tells us is, | 0:25:44 | 0:25:45 | |
we need to be recognising that anti-immigration sentiment | 0:25:45 | 0:25:48 | |
is very deeply entrenched in this country, | 0:25:48 | 0:25:50 | |
-and we need to be addressing... -Well, is it? | 0:25:50 | 0:25:52 | |
Because we have had a lot of attitudinal change | 0:25:52 | 0:25:54 | |
on many social issues since 1978 | 0:25:54 | 0:25:57 | |
which goes against that particular tide. | 0:25:57 | 0:25:59 | |
So, can you compare like with like? | 0:25:59 | 0:26:01 | |
Well, I think that what we can look at is the fact that there | 0:26:01 | 0:26:04 | |
has consistently been a hostile environment to migrants. | 0:26:04 | 0:26:07 | |
If you look at government policy from the 1960s, there was | 0:26:07 | 0:26:09 | |
a concerted effort to keep migrants of colour out of this country. | 0:26:09 | 0:26:12 | |
So what I'm saying is not that we should be ignoring | 0:26:12 | 0:26:15 | |
people's concerns, often deeply legitimate concerns, | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
but we should be recognising that instead of just | 0:26:18 | 0:26:20 | |
calling people racist, we should be addressing why there is prejudice. | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
That's not to say that everyone who is anti-immigration is racist, | 0:26:23 | 0:26:26 | |
but it is to recognise that there is an element of racism | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
and prejudice within that anti-migrant feeling, | 0:26:28 | 0:26:31 | |
and I think that we need to be addressing that, | 0:26:31 | 0:26:33 | |
trying to break down difference as opposed to reinforcing it, | 0:26:33 | 0:26:36 | |
because people all over the world have far more in common | 0:26:36 | 0:26:39 | |
than a lot of this discourse would have us believe. | 0:26:39 | 0:26:41 | |
Douglas, you've written about the cultural challenges, | 0:26:47 | 0:26:50 | |
what would you say to Maya? | 0:26:50 | 0:26:52 | |
I entirely disagree. | 0:26:52 | 0:26:54 | |
I think you would be hard pushed to find a single country in | 0:26:54 | 0:26:57 | |
the world that has been as tolerant | 0:26:57 | 0:26:59 | |
and as welcoming of migration as this one. | 0:26:59 | 0:27:02 | |
I cannot think of one anywhere in the world. | 0:27:02 | 0:27:07 | |
I've travelled widely, not just in our continent but across the world, | 0:27:07 | 0:27:10 | |
and I can assure you that if the numbers that came into | 0:27:10 | 0:27:12 | |
this country over the post-war period | 0:27:12 | 0:27:14 | |
up until now had gone into any other country in the world | 0:27:14 | 0:27:17 | |
that we would be seeing a very different response. | 0:27:17 | 0:27:19 | |
And I think this is a knee-jerk assault on the British people | 0:27:19 | 0:27:24 | |
which is continuing and should stop. | 0:27:24 | 0:27:26 | |
We were talking earlier about some of the economic implications. | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
The economic implications of globalisation include | 0:27:29 | 0:27:31 | |
the possibility that people born in this country, er, the same time | 0:27:31 | 0:27:35 | |
as somebody in this country has a child, | 0:27:35 | 0:27:38 | |
they are competing with dozens of other children around the world | 0:27:38 | 0:27:42 | |
to get to the lifestyle and benefits that people across the world | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
would dream of and which people in this country think | 0:27:45 | 0:27:48 | |
is their birthright, and that's changing. | 0:27:48 | 0:27:50 | |
And that's going to change across all sorts of parts | 0:27:50 | 0:27:53 | |
of the developed world, and one of the things that makes that change | 0:27:53 | 0:27:56 | |
far, far more painful is the idea that it will happen | 0:27:56 | 0:27:59 | |
simultaneously with an assault on their identity, | 0:27:59 | 0:28:04 | |
because people can potentially take the stagnation of wages, | 0:28:04 | 0:28:08 | |
they can potentially take living standards questions, | 0:28:08 | 0:28:10 | |
but if the same time you say, "Oh, and by the way, | 0:28:10 | 0:28:13 | |
"maybe we don't always say you're racists, but we sort of imply it," | 0:28:13 | 0:28:18 | |
then I think you're going to build up a lot of problems for the future. | 0:28:18 | 0:28:22 | |
And by the way, very quickly, on your 1970s point, one of the things | 0:28:22 | 0:28:26 | |
about migration is, it takes a long time for that effect to happen. | 0:28:26 | 0:28:28 | |
If you look at the opinion polls on migration in this country | 0:28:28 | 0:28:32 | |
that followed the influx after the Blair government, | 0:28:32 | 0:28:35 | |
it took time for people's attitudes to harden on migration, | 0:28:35 | 0:28:39 | |
precisely because the impact of that migration takes time to happen. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:44 | |
So as well as misrepresenting the facts, | 0:28:44 | 0:28:46 | |
I think you just have to be extremely careful not to say | 0:28:46 | 0:28:50 | |
this country, which as I say is the most tolerant in the world, | 0:28:50 | 0:28:54 | |
is in fact the most bigoted, | 0:28:54 | 0:28:55 | |
because if you travel anywhere around the world | 0:28:55 | 0:28:57 | |
you will see a very different picture. | 0:28:57 | 0:28:59 | |
I would just like... I think Douglas makes a very important point there. | 0:28:59 | 0:29:02 | |
This point about tolerance, as far as I'm concerned, | 0:29:02 | 0:29:04 | |
is part of the problem. | 0:29:04 | 0:29:05 | |
For decades, people have been told to put up with people | 0:29:05 | 0:29:08 | |
and there's never been a concerted explanation to demystify difference. | 0:29:08 | 0:29:11 | |
So people have been told, "Put up with that person | 0:29:11 | 0:29:14 | |
"living down the street, | 0:29:14 | 0:29:15 | |
"they're different, they've come from a different country, | 0:29:15 | 0:29:18 | |
"maybe they cook a different cuisine..." | 0:29:18 | 0:29:20 | |
But can I ask you something, | 0:29:20 | 0:29:21 | |
because this comes to the heart of what | 0:29:21 | 0:29:22 | |
so many people are debating at the moment, and it's actually at | 0:29:22 | 0:29:25 | |
the heart of Douglas' book, | 0:29:25 | 0:29:26 | |
and we'll get his response to it in a moment. | 0:29:26 | 0:29:29 | |
What if they have a fundamentally different | 0:29:29 | 0:29:31 | |
set of values, social values? Because we have come through, well, | 0:29:31 | 0:29:34 | |
it's the 500th anniversary of the Reformation this year, | 0:29:34 | 0:29:37 | |
we've had that, we've had the Enlightenment, | 0:29:37 | 0:29:40 | |
the Age of Reason, it's been a long road to where we are today | 0:29:40 | 0:29:43 | |
for our, broadly speaking, liberal values. | 0:29:43 | 0:29:46 | |
What if people are inimical to those? | 0:29:46 | 0:29:48 | |
So firstly, we need to look at the fact that the history | 0:29:48 | 0:29:51 | |
of Britain is one of people coming in and out of the country. | 0:29:51 | 0:29:53 | |
So this idea that values exist in this kind of | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
hermetically sealed unit of the nation state | 0:29:56 | 0:29:58 | |
quite clearly isn't true. | 0:29:58 | 0:29:59 | |
If you look at David Olusoga's Black Britain, | 0:29:59 | 0:30:01 | |
you see that over 2,000 years | 0:30:01 | 0:30:02 | |
people have been coming in and out of | 0:30:02 | 0:30:04 | |
this country contributing ideas and to social change, | 0:30:04 | 0:30:07 | |
and what I would like to be answered on this question of social values - | 0:30:07 | 0:30:10 | |
what are the social values, | 0:30:10 | 0:30:12 | |
what are the social values we feel are at risk because of migration? | 0:30:12 | 0:30:15 | |
Let's pinpoint them, particularly because this is consistently | 0:30:15 | 0:30:18 | |
-talked about on the right and it's never quite clear. -I can do. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:21 | |
Firstly, on your point about the constant movement, actually, | 0:30:21 | 0:30:23 | |
the movement into these islands in particular | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
has been really minimal over... | 0:30:26 | 0:30:27 | |
What was the biggest event of the last millennium, | 0:30:27 | 0:30:30 | |
the Norman Conquest? | 0:30:30 | 0:30:31 | |
About a 5% population shift as a cause of the Norman Conquest. | 0:30:31 | 0:30:35 | |
So this idea that the movement has been perennial... | 0:30:35 | 0:30:37 | |
Also, the movement that you're talking about most of | 0:30:37 | 0:30:40 | |
the time is movement from France, with the Huguenots, for instance, | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
Protestant French people, | 0:30:43 | 0:30:44 | |
or movement from Ireland into what we now call mainland Britain. | 0:30:44 | 0:30:48 | |
That is not the same as somebody from Eritrea or Ghana | 0:30:48 | 0:30:52 | |
or Myanmar moving in to live in Salford, | 0:30:52 | 0:30:55 | |
it's a totally different movement and you should admit that. | 0:30:55 | 0:30:57 | |
So what's so different about people from Eritrea and Myanmar? | 0:30:57 | 0:31:00 | |
-My God... -Tell me specifically. -You can't have gone anywhere. | 0:31:00 | 0:31:03 | |
-Specifically. -You can't have gone anywhere if | 0:31:03 | 0:31:05 | |
you honestly have to ask that question. | 0:31:05 | 0:31:06 | |
-It is a simple statement... -Well, answer it for our benefit. | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
It is a simple statement of the obvious that countries | 0:31:09 | 0:31:11 | |
-and cultures have differences, it doesn't mean... -What cultures? | 0:31:11 | 0:31:14 | |
What are the cultural specificities? | 0:31:14 | 0:31:16 | |
OK, I'll give you like a history lesson. | 0:31:16 | 0:31:18 | |
-This country... -I don't need to be patronised. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:20 | |
..has throughout most of its history | 0:31:20 | 0:31:22 | |
been a, for instance, Christian country, | 0:31:22 | 0:31:25 | |
it has been... I'm not a practising Christian myself, | 0:31:25 | 0:31:27 | |
but it's been historically a Christian country, | 0:31:27 | 0:31:29 | |
particularly a Protestant Christian country. | 0:31:29 | 0:31:32 | |
-I mean, there's Christians in... -If I may just finish. | 0:31:32 | 0:31:34 | |
You see, you asked me to define something and then I try, | 0:31:34 | 0:31:37 | |
-and then you talk. -You're being very rude, Douglas. | 0:31:37 | 0:31:41 | |
I feel like you're being very rude. | 0:31:41 | 0:31:44 | |
In this country, | 0:31:44 | 0:31:46 | |
the institutions that epitomised our country were | 0:31:46 | 0:31:48 | |
an established monarchy, for instance, | 0:31:48 | 0:31:50 | |
the establishment of Parliament, | 0:31:50 | 0:31:51 | |
the establishment of the judiciary and of the law courts, | 0:31:51 | 0:31:54 | |
the establishment of the great educational institutions, | 0:31:54 | 0:31:57 | |
I could go on and on. | 0:31:57 | 0:31:59 | |
Now, you see, one of the problems is, whenever people say, | 0:31:59 | 0:32:02 | |
"What is this thing that you call Britain?" We have an identity. | 0:32:02 | 0:32:06 | |
It's forever being put on a psychiatrist's couch now | 0:32:06 | 0:32:08 | |
and being deconstructed, | 0:32:08 | 0:32:10 | |
but we have an identity just as other people have an identity. | 0:32:10 | 0:32:13 | |
We don't have to war or hate each other, | 0:32:13 | 0:32:15 | |
but we should recognise it exists. | 0:32:15 | 0:32:16 | |
OK, Maya, I will come back to you, just hold fire just a second. | 0:32:16 | 0:32:19 | |
Let's all... OK, Guy. | 0:32:19 | 0:32:21 | |
I just want to put in a stylised fact. | 0:32:21 | 0:32:23 | |
We actually, in this country, | 0:32:23 | 0:32:24 | |
do not have a very high percentage of migrants. | 0:32:24 | 0:32:28 | |
It's actually slightly less than the European average. | 0:32:28 | 0:32:31 | |
I happen to be a migrant who lives in Europe | 0:32:31 | 0:32:35 | |
and works in Europe, and I don't share your values, | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
I don't share your identity, I share many of the identities and values | 0:32:38 | 0:32:43 | |
of people with whom I live in Europe. | 0:32:43 | 0:32:46 | |
And I think this is complete nonsense, if I may say so, | 0:32:46 | 0:32:50 | |
because I think we're no more tolerant or less tolerant. | 0:32:50 | 0:32:54 | |
Some people are tolerant in this country, | 0:32:54 | 0:32:56 | |
we've absorbed many groups over the years, | 0:32:56 | 0:33:01 | |
but so have many other countries, and it's great. It's great. | 0:33:01 | 0:33:04 | |
-DAVID: -Well, no, it isn't great... | 0:33:04 | 0:33:06 | |
-David. -We now have a populist reaction against... | 0:33:07 | 0:33:12 | |
"It isn't great", you said. | 0:33:12 | 0:33:13 | |
No, it isn't. But you're also wrong, we're close to the top | 0:33:13 | 0:33:18 | |
in terms of numbers over the last 20 years or so. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:21 | |
-We're not. -We are. -13%. -No, it's more than that now. -It's not. | 0:33:21 | 0:33:26 | |
But anyway, we have had a very big change, | 0:33:26 | 0:33:30 | |
the immigrant and minority population in Britain was about | 0:33:30 | 0:33:34 | |
four million in the '90s, it is now closer to 11 million. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:39 | |
And in many places, this has led to a great change. | 0:33:39 | 0:33:42 | |
But at the same time, people in all places, at all times, | 0:33:42 | 0:33:45 | |
are hostile to large-scale immigration, | 0:33:45 | 0:33:47 | |
we just have to be realistic. | 0:33:47 | 0:33:49 | |
People prefer similarity and familiarity and stability | 0:33:49 | 0:33:52 | |
in their lives, and that's just a fact of life. | 0:33:52 | 0:33:55 | |
But at the same time that the numbers have been going up | 0:33:55 | 0:33:58 | |
and the anxiety and the wariness about it has been going up, | 0:33:58 | 0:34:01 | |
racial hostility, racist attitudes have been going down. | 0:34:01 | 0:34:04 | |
I've just written a book about the value divides in British society. | 0:34:04 | 0:34:07 | |
You look at the British social attitude surveys, on all the... | 0:34:07 | 0:34:10 | |
That's what I hinted at earlier on, our social attitudes have changed. | 0:34:10 | 0:34:13 | |
Absolutely. A huge liberalisation, a great liberalisation | 0:34:13 | 0:34:16 | |
has gone on over sexuality, over gender, and over race too. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:21 | |
And I think there's something else we have to remember. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:25 | |
I mean, we have an absolutely in-your-face globalisation. | 0:34:25 | 0:34:29 | |
It's one thing if your factory closes and moves to China | 0:34:29 | 0:34:33 | |
or Myanmar, that's one thing, | 0:34:33 | 0:34:35 | |
but when that happens, and then a whole different population from you | 0:34:35 | 0:34:40 | |
is imported in your country to compete with you in your own place, | 0:34:40 | 0:34:43 | |
that's a very, very big difference. | 0:34:43 | 0:34:45 | |
If I may, let me pick you up on something, I just want to | 0:34:45 | 0:34:48 | |
wind it back to something you said that about the fact | 0:34:48 | 0:34:51 | |
that we've had a huge liberalisation process in this country. | 0:34:51 | 0:34:54 | |
Would you say in Europe we have the world gold standard of human rights? | 0:34:54 | 0:34:58 | |
-Would we say we are the leaders... -Well, we started first. | 0:34:58 | 0:35:02 | |
I mean, our antidiscrimination rules, which we drew partly from | 0:35:02 | 0:35:05 | |
America in the mid-'60s, | 0:35:05 | 0:35:06 | |
they set the tone for much of what was happening. | 0:35:06 | 0:35:08 | |
Maya, how do we lead the rest of the world, | 0:35:08 | 0:35:10 | |
and bring them to our gold standard, our more... | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
provocative here, our more advanced human rights? | 0:35:13 | 0:35:16 | |
I don't agree with this idea that we're bringing the rest of the world | 0:35:16 | 0:35:19 | |
-and we were leading, if you look at the history... -Are we leading? | 0:35:19 | 0:35:22 | |
No, if you look at the history of the British Empire, | 0:35:22 | 0:35:24 | |
-it's a very bloody history. -I'm talking about now. | 0:35:24 | 0:35:27 | |
But now, I think that... | 0:35:27 | 0:35:28 | |
In terms of LGBT, in terms of women... | 0:35:28 | 0:35:30 | |
I think that racial attitudes actually, if you look at the British | 0:35:30 | 0:35:34 | |
social attitudes survey, there's increasing people who say | 0:35:34 | 0:35:37 | |
they are intolerant and don't like people of different races. | 0:35:37 | 0:35:40 | |
That's actually increasing. | 0:35:40 | 0:35:42 | |
There has been an upward blip in a long downward trend. | 0:35:42 | 0:35:45 | |
An upward blip because the change has been so radical around it. | 0:35:45 | 0:35:48 | |
We can't ignore that, | 0:35:48 | 0:35:49 | |
and to come back to Douglas's point originally, | 0:35:49 | 0:35:51 | |
we need to probe more, this idea that British society, | 0:35:51 | 0:35:55 | |
he listed the monarchy, Parliament, | 0:35:55 | 0:35:58 | |
that it's somehow under threat | 0:35:58 | 0:36:01 | |
from people from Eritrea, Ghana and Myanmar. | 0:36:01 | 0:36:03 | |
That's not clear to me how that's the case. | 0:36:03 | 0:36:05 | |
You've listed these institutions, but you haven't | 0:36:05 | 0:36:08 | |
explained exactly what it is that is under threat from these people. | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
Let's go back to Douglas, because he has to answer that. | 0:36:11 | 0:36:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:36:14 | 0:36:16 | |
He's had a direct challenge there. | 0:36:16 | 0:36:19 | |
Then, Sam, I'm going to come to you and Linda... | 0:36:19 | 0:36:21 | |
I'm going to go Linda first, then Sam, | 0:36:21 | 0:36:22 | |
but, Douglas, answer that direct challenge from Maya. | 0:36:22 | 0:36:25 | |
You can do it on all sorts of things - historic attitudes, | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
or you can do it on, for instance, current social attitudes, | 0:36:28 | 0:36:31 | |
which I'll throw out as one example. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:33 | |
I'll take an example that Nicky just cited of tolerance. | 0:36:33 | 0:36:37 | |
I think we agree in Britain that we're a tolerant country. | 0:36:37 | 0:36:40 | |
We're meant to be tolerant, we try to be a tolerant country and so on. | 0:36:40 | 0:36:43 | |
Polling recently showed that the more immigration you have, | 0:36:43 | 0:36:45 | |
the less tolerance you have on certain issues, | 0:36:45 | 0:36:48 | |
not because we the British people have become intolerant, | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
but because people come with views of their own. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
Let me give you a quick example. | 0:36:53 | 0:36:55 | |
A poll carried out two years ago by YouGov, | 0:36:55 | 0:36:58 | |
asked people their opinions on homosexuality, | 0:36:58 | 0:37:01 | |
morally acceptable, or morally not acceptable? | 0:37:01 | 0:37:03 | |
Across the country as a whole, about 14% of the British people | 0:37:03 | 0:37:07 | |
said homosexuality was not morally acceptable. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
In London, it was double that. Why would that be? | 0:37:10 | 0:37:13 | |
Is it because London, the capital city, is just | 0:37:13 | 0:37:17 | |
a particular home of homophobia, or might it be, as I would suggest, | 0:37:17 | 0:37:21 | |
because people come into the country with attitudes of their own. | 0:37:21 | 0:37:23 | |
You may deprecate that, and I deprecate that, | 0:37:23 | 0:37:26 | |
but we should at least acknowledge it - you're trying to cover it over. | 0:37:26 | 0:37:29 | |
No, I think that actually, this poll... There's another poll | 0:37:29 | 0:37:33 | |
which shows actually, it asks about attitudes towards homosexuality and | 0:37:33 | 0:37:36 | |
same sex marriage and you actually find, apart from Scotland, | 0:37:36 | 0:37:39 | |
in one of the questions, London has better attitudes towards | 0:37:39 | 0:37:42 | |
homosexuality than the rest of the country. | 0:37:42 | 0:37:45 | |
But you know, Maya, they could be evangelical Christians, | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
there could be certain Muslim communities, | 0:37:48 | 0:37:50 | |
you know that attitudes are harder on that, that's... | 0:37:50 | 0:37:53 | |
Yes, but the point is that Douglas is citing this poll, | 0:37:53 | 0:37:56 | |
but there's counter evidence to that. | 0:37:56 | 0:37:58 | |
I just want to make a broader point, that, yes, there are some | 0:37:58 | 0:38:00 | |
attitudes that I don't agree with, such as homophobia. | 0:38:00 | 0:38:03 | |
I think that we should be challenging those. | 0:38:03 | 0:38:05 | |
If you go back to the late 1980s, | 0:38:05 | 0:38:06 | |
even Margaret Thatcher was saying that children were being taught | 0:38:06 | 0:38:10 | |
traditional moral values, and were also being | 0:38:10 | 0:38:13 | |
taught that they had "an inalienable right to be gay", | 0:38:13 | 0:38:16 | |
and that led to Section 28. | 0:38:16 | 0:38:18 | |
-The point is, social attitudes do change. -We've moved on. | 0:38:18 | 0:38:21 | |
Wait a minute, OK. | 0:38:21 | 0:38:22 | |
People will make up their own minds about what they're hearing in that | 0:38:22 | 0:38:27 | |
particular interesting exchange, and, Sam, I've got you in mind. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:30 | |
I'll move it over here as well. I'm trying my best. | 0:38:30 | 0:38:33 | |
Linda, what about the attitudes, human rights, | 0:38:33 | 0:38:37 | |
social attitudes across the world? | 0:38:37 | 0:38:40 | |
Are we heading... Is it linear? | 0:38:40 | 0:38:43 | |
Are we all heading in the same direction, do you think? | 0:38:43 | 0:38:46 | |
I think for a time | 0:38:46 | 0:38:48 | |
we thought we were heading towards a similar direction. | 0:38:48 | 0:38:52 | |
If you look at the UN Declaration of Human Rights, | 0:38:52 | 0:38:54 | |
I think there was quite a move, especially as emerging markets | 0:38:54 | 0:38:58 | |
integrated, to move into a greater tolerant set of attitudes and | 0:38:58 | 0:39:02 | |
values, to make sure human rights are respected around the world. | 0:39:02 | 0:39:08 | |
But, of course, | 0:39:08 | 0:39:09 | |
I think there are going to be issues around how people adjust to change. | 0:39:09 | 0:39:15 | |
I've seen it in America, I am both British and American. | 0:39:15 | 0:39:20 | |
And America has taken 200 year history very, very... | 0:39:20 | 0:39:24 | |
It is a country with a lot of immigrants that founded the nation. | 0:39:24 | 0:39:28 | |
But they all seem to tick the same box, don't they, in America? | 0:39:28 | 0:39:30 | |
Is it different? Because that's multiculturalism, people argue. | 0:39:30 | 0:39:34 | |
Everyone has their own culture, | 0:39:34 | 0:39:36 | |
but they have an overarching one which they all buy into. | 0:39:36 | 0:39:39 | |
But the downside, the negative of multiculturalism, | 0:39:39 | 0:39:43 | |
as some people would have it, is people coming here | 0:39:43 | 0:39:45 | |
and then building fortresses around their own culture. | 0:39:45 | 0:39:48 | |
There's a difference, isn't there? | 0:39:48 | 0:39:50 | |
There is, we hear "the melting pot of America" quite a lot, | 0:39:50 | 0:39:53 | |
so the question is, when you go into the melting pot, | 0:39:53 | 0:39:57 | |
do you melt into the collective, or do you retain... | 0:39:57 | 0:40:00 | |
-Multiple identity is possible. -It is. | 0:40:00 | 0:40:02 | |
I think that's probably why I raised that because I think it | 0:40:02 | 0:40:05 | |
actually takes... Because America 200 years ago, | 0:40:05 | 0:40:08 | |
was founded through migration from Britain, | 0:40:08 | 0:40:12 | |
you have a long period of adjustment with a lot of ups and downs, | 0:40:12 | 0:40:17 | |
and I am not suggesting at all that America has this solved, | 0:40:17 | 0:40:20 | |
because we see the problems, but we can also see, | 0:40:20 | 0:40:23 | |
it has already been mentioned, the 1960s Civil Rights Movement. | 0:40:23 | 0:40:27 | |
I think there have been steps forward, and steps back, into | 0:40:27 | 0:40:31 | |
how you can both be a tolerant society, | 0:40:31 | 0:40:35 | |
and have people believe in something called the American dream, | 0:40:35 | 0:40:39 | |
for lack of a better way of describing it. | 0:40:39 | 0:40:41 | |
We get this woolly thing here, "British values", | 0:40:41 | 0:40:44 | |
nobody quite knows what that is. | 0:40:44 | 0:40:47 | |
This debate is important because, like I said, it does take time. | 0:40:47 | 0:40:52 | |
I use America as an example because it is a nation which had to grapple | 0:40:52 | 0:40:57 | |
with this, from both integrating slaves, | 0:40:57 | 0:40:59 | |
and through then the early 20th century, | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
the migration of Chinese, the later migration of Vietnamese refugees, | 0:41:02 | 0:41:06 | |
it has had a lot of history in terms of trying to, as I say, | 0:41:06 | 0:41:11 | |
both assimilate, but allow people to retain their cultural identities. | 0:41:11 | 0:41:15 | |
There is no easy answer here, | 0:41:15 | 0:41:17 | |
but the most important thing is to have a dialogue and to make | 0:41:17 | 0:41:20 | |
sure that what the politicians are doing in terms of institutions | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
is bringing people along, and I see this in Europe as well. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:27 | |
It is a different movement at the moment, | 0:41:27 | 0:41:30 | |
but the European project is moving towards more political integration, | 0:41:30 | 0:41:34 | |
and the question we hear there a lot is the democratic deficit, | 0:41:34 | 0:41:38 | |
have they brought the people along into this new European identity? | 0:41:38 | 0:41:41 | |
I think, to me, that's why it is great we are having this debate. | 0:41:41 | 0:41:45 | |
Good. I promised to come to Sam, and I will be over there with Tom, | 0:41:45 | 0:41:49 | |
and we want to hear from the audience. | 0:41:49 | 0:41:50 | |
Any thoughts on migration from the audience very quickly? | 0:41:50 | 0:41:53 | |
-Sam, you have been giving me... -The reason I am so wound up... | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
I'll come to you in a minute, | 0:41:56 | 0:41:57 | |
but I've got to go to Sam because Sam has been giving me daggers. | 0:41:57 | 0:42:00 | |
Don't worry, sir, I will be with you. | 0:42:00 | 0:42:02 | |
The thing that is so important to note here is that the debate we are | 0:42:02 | 0:42:05 | |
having is not one that reflects what migration actually looks like now. | 0:42:05 | 0:42:09 | |
The waves of migration Douglas was talking about are over. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:11 | |
We do not have large-scale immigration from any Muslim | 0:42:11 | 0:42:14 | |
country into the UK. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:15 | |
All migrants who come to Britain from outside the EU | 0:42:15 | 0:42:18 | |
are either on high-skilled visas, or they are students. | 0:42:18 | 0:42:21 | |
There is virtually no low-skilled immigration into the UK. | 0:42:21 | 0:42:24 | |
-Except from the European Union. -So, when we talk about the EU, | 0:42:24 | 0:42:26 | |
which is where the unskilled labour comes from, | 0:42:26 | 0:42:29 | |
about half of that comes from Eastern Europe, | 0:42:29 | 0:42:31 | |
half of that comes from Western Europe, | 0:42:31 | 0:42:33 | |
most of the countries like Spain and Italy and Portugal and so on. | 0:42:33 | 0:42:36 | |
That's the debate that we should be having right now. | 0:42:36 | 0:42:39 | |
That's the kind of migration we can influence now. | 0:42:39 | 0:42:41 | |
The concerns Douglas is talking about, we should be talking about, | 0:42:41 | 0:42:43 | |
but that does not reflect what migration is about at the moment. | 0:42:43 | 0:42:46 | |
I think that's where David's discussion is much more relevant. | 0:42:46 | 0:42:49 | |
What's really important is to note that migrants from Europe | 0:42:49 | 0:42:53 | |
are extremely good in terms of paying money into the state | 0:42:53 | 0:42:57 | |
and not costing a lot to the state. | 0:42:57 | 0:42:58 | |
They subsidise the rest of us. | 0:42:58 | 0:43:00 | |
Borrowing is lower, taxes are lower... | 0:43:00 | 0:43:02 | |
Only the West European ones, Sam, | 0:43:02 | 0:43:04 | |
not the East and central European ones, that is more or less neutral. | 0:43:04 | 0:43:07 | |
The French and German bankers do subsidise, the others don't. | 0:43:07 | 0:43:11 | |
No, that's not the case. | 0:43:11 | 0:43:13 | |
Look at the famous Christian Dustmann paper... | 0:43:13 | 0:43:15 | |
Don't get me onto the famous Christian Dustmann paper! | 0:43:15 | 0:43:19 | |
Don't get me onto that! Carry on. | 0:43:19 | 0:43:21 | |
The reason that they do that is not because they are magic, | 0:43:21 | 0:43:23 | |
and the reason that you don't see this huge drag coming in | 0:43:23 | 0:43:26 | |
is because they're young. | 0:43:26 | 0:43:27 | |
They're not a burden on the pension system, or on the health system. | 0:43:27 | 0:43:30 | |
That's what is doing it. | 0:43:30 | 0:43:32 | |
Those people are like a blood transfusion to the economy, | 0:43:32 | 0:43:34 | |
-and they are keeping the rest of our taxes low. -OK, sir, I am so sorry. | 0:43:34 | 0:43:38 | |
We will have Tom in a second. | 0:43:38 | 0:43:40 | |
Look at the... Let's return to the global impact of globalisation, | 0:43:40 | 0:43:45 | |
and I think what's happened is that it has polarised the world. | 0:43:45 | 0:43:48 | |
We have been divided into rich and poor, | 0:43:48 | 0:43:51 | |
and that is not just about money, but human resource. | 0:43:51 | 0:43:54 | |
For example, if you look at... | 0:43:54 | 0:43:56 | |
We were just listening to American experience. | 0:43:56 | 0:43:59 | |
America is the biggest culprit. | 0:43:59 | 0:44:01 | |
It actually sucks the talent from across the world. | 0:44:01 | 0:44:04 | |
In the process, it leaves the poorer nation poorer. | 0:44:04 | 0:44:07 | |
But if people want to go there... | 0:44:07 | 0:44:09 | |
Well, I mean, as individuals, you'll always like to go | 0:44:09 | 0:44:12 | |
to where there are opportunities, where individuals are better. | 0:44:12 | 0:44:16 | |
Yes. | 0:44:16 | 0:44:17 | |
I mean, I migrated from India. | 0:44:17 | 0:44:19 | |
In the process, India lost a doctor and Britain gained a doctor. | 0:44:19 | 0:44:23 | |
So the inequality is that we now have seven doctors | 0:44:23 | 0:44:26 | |
for 10,000 people in India, | 0:44:26 | 0:44:28 | |
and we have 27 or 23 doctors in the States for 10,000 people. | 0:44:28 | 0:44:33 | |
So this kind of inequality is the real problem. | 0:44:33 | 0:44:37 | |
You can't just look at globalisation as an issue for Britain, | 0:44:37 | 0:44:41 | |
and tolerance or intolerance, but really, | 0:44:41 | 0:44:43 | |
there are people out there, more than one billion, | 0:44:43 | 0:44:46 | |
-who are really destitute and are losing out. -A very good point. | 0:44:46 | 0:44:50 | |
OK, Tom. Tom, if I may. | 0:44:50 | 0:44:52 | |
I want to move on and you will all get a chance on this, | 0:44:52 | 0:44:56 | |
I promise, but it is about how we deal with this challenge, | 0:44:56 | 0:44:59 | |
the continuing opportunities of globalisation. | 0:44:59 | 0:45:04 | |
It's capitalism in crisis. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:07 | |
I don't think it's necessarily the case that it is... | 0:45:07 | 0:45:09 | |
I think it is in crisis at the moment insofar as I think it's | 0:45:09 | 0:45:12 | |
a decaying capitalism which is propped up by the state, | 0:45:12 | 0:45:14 | |
effectively, whether it's through low interest rates, | 0:45:14 | 0:45:17 | |
things that Sam was talking about earlier, | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
dis-incentivise research and development. | 0:45:19 | 0:45:21 | |
I think one of the big problems is we have a zombie economy, | 0:45:21 | 0:45:24 | |
which effectively is incapable of generating the kind of | 0:45:24 | 0:45:27 | |
transformative change and the new technologies | 0:45:27 | 0:45:29 | |
that we have been talking about. | 0:45:29 | 0:45:31 | |
I think that, post-Brexit, the thing we have really got to look at | 0:45:31 | 0:45:34 | |
is the way in which we generate that at home. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:36 | |
So there's a lot of focus on trade deals, | 0:45:36 | 0:45:38 | |
and there's a lot of focus on whether it's with the EU, | 0:45:38 | 0:45:40 | |
or whether it's with other countries internationally, | 0:45:40 | 0:45:43 | |
and how we can make trade as easy as possible. | 0:45:43 | 0:45:45 | |
But if you haven't got anything to sell, if you haven't got | 0:45:45 | 0:45:48 | |
thriving viable industries, that doesn't get you very far. | 0:45:48 | 0:45:50 | |
The thing I disagree with Sam on is I don't think the private sector | 0:45:50 | 0:45:54 | |
is capable of generating the kind of research and development we need. | 0:45:54 | 0:45:57 | |
I think, not only is it hampered in so many ways, but I think it | 0:45:57 | 0:46:00 | |
has become incredibly risk averse as a consequence of that. | 0:46:00 | 0:46:04 | |
I think we need to take away the measures which are propping up | 0:46:04 | 0:46:06 | |
this zombie economy, | 0:46:06 | 0:46:08 | |
but we also need to put loads and loads of money, | 0:46:08 | 0:46:11 | |
I think we need to double and then double again the 0.5% of GDP that | 0:46:11 | 0:46:14 | |
goes into research and development to fund those new industries. | 0:46:14 | 0:46:17 | |
I think we have got a fantastic opportunity at the moment | 0:46:17 | 0:46:20 | |
insofar as there's so much that within the European Union actually | 0:46:20 | 0:46:23 | |
avoided these kinds of innovations, | 0:46:23 | 0:46:24 | |
the precautionary principle which is enshrined within EU regulations. | 0:46:24 | 0:46:28 | |
So we're not going to be in that previous phase, "a cork | 0:46:28 | 0:46:31 | |
bobbing on a rough sea", we're going to be able to navigate this? | 0:46:31 | 0:46:34 | |
I think so, and it's a case of looking at this, not as a question | 0:46:34 | 0:46:38 | |
of what are these outside forces that we are subject to? | 0:46:38 | 0:46:40 | |
There's a lot that we can tackle at home, | 0:46:40 | 0:46:43 | |
and I think that's what we really need to focus on. | 0:46:43 | 0:46:45 | |
On one side you have people saying, | 0:46:45 | 0:46:47 | |
whether it's Donald Trump talking about China as the reason | 0:46:47 | 0:46:50 | |
that manufacturing has hollowed out in the US is ridiculous, but | 0:46:50 | 0:46:53 | |
at the same time suggesting that our economic future is entirely reliant | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
on our agreement with the rest of the world, | 0:46:56 | 0:46:58 | |
misses the opportunity we have at home to really boost productivity | 0:46:58 | 0:47:00 | |
and get a new Industrial Revolution of the ground. | 0:47:00 | 0:47:03 | |
OK, in how to deal with this, then, | 0:47:03 | 0:47:04 | |
Katy, I knew it had to start somewhere. | 0:47:04 | 0:47:07 | |
The top 100 richest entities in the world, | 0:47:07 | 0:47:11 | |
69 are corporations. | 0:47:11 | 0:47:13 | |
You know, we are all working for them. | 0:47:13 | 0:47:16 | |
We are all the slaves of corporations. What do we do? | 0:47:16 | 0:47:20 | |
Yes, I mean it is the power balance. | 0:47:20 | 0:47:22 | |
-How do we get them to pay their taxes? -Well, exactly. | 0:47:22 | 0:47:25 | |
They are all over the place. | 0:47:25 | 0:47:26 | |
Exactly, and they know it, | 0:47:26 | 0:47:27 | |
and they know they have got the bargaining chip. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:29 | |
We had a really interesting presentation from a guy | 0:47:29 | 0:47:32 | |
who used to be the finance minister of Rwanda, so Rwanda's | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he describes being, you know, | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
the finance minister of a country and a corporation - | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
they fly in, say, "We'd like to invest in your country. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:44 | |
"By the way, we don't want to pay any tax, | 0:47:44 | 0:47:46 | |
"and then we want to pay reduced tax for 10 years. | 0:47:46 | 0:47:48 | |
"You've got an hour to decide and then we're flying to your neighbour, | 0:47:48 | 0:47:51 | |
"and they'll say yes, so," you know, "you'd better take the deal." | 0:47:51 | 0:47:54 | |
It is like a game show! | 0:47:54 | 0:47:55 | |
You know, it is absolutely that brutal, so we do need... | 0:47:55 | 0:47:59 | |
It was something Guy said right at the beginning. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:02 | |
It's not just that we have these economic forces, | 0:48:02 | 0:48:06 | |
we also have countries being told this is how you do development, | 0:48:06 | 0:48:10 | |
you must be completely open, | 0:48:10 | 0:48:12 | |
and it is that kind of logic that we have got to change. | 0:48:12 | 0:48:15 | |
You have got to see countries willing to club together, | 0:48:15 | 0:48:17 | |
saying actually, "You know what? | 0:48:17 | 0:48:19 | |
"We're not going to trade off against each other on our tax rates. | 0:48:19 | 0:48:22 | |
"We're going to say that as a group of East African countries | 0:48:22 | 0:48:24 | |
"we can't be played off against each other, we will pay tax." | 0:48:24 | 0:48:28 | |
But also, the answer is not just with big government. | 0:48:28 | 0:48:31 | |
We have to tackle corruption, don't we? | 0:48:31 | 0:48:33 | |
But the answer is also with people, | 0:48:33 | 0:48:34 | |
with peoples' rights to enter trade unions. | 0:48:34 | 0:48:37 | |
Take a company like Burger King, all over the world, giving us Whoppers. | 0:48:37 | 0:48:41 | |
Because they have... | 0:48:41 | 0:48:43 | |
Politicians give us whoppers! | 0:48:43 | 0:48:46 | |
For free! | 0:48:46 | 0:48:48 | |
But, you know, a company like Burger King, | 0:48:48 | 0:48:51 | |
same business model everywhere, but in Denmark, because of a collective | 0:48:51 | 0:48:55 | |
bargaining agreement, you get 20 an hour making those burgers. | 0:48:55 | 0:48:59 | |
In the US it is 8. | 0:48:59 | 0:49:00 | |
The same company and the same forces can be interacted very differently | 0:49:00 | 0:49:04 | |
with the policy environment, | 0:49:04 | 0:49:06 | |
so we've just got to reject this idea it's a force of nature. | 0:49:06 | 0:49:09 | |
The same with technology. | 0:49:09 | 0:49:11 | |
I'm sorry, technology is not some force of nature either, | 0:49:11 | 0:49:14 | |
and governments have a duty to think, "How are we going to interact | 0:49:14 | 0:49:17 | |
"with this growth of technology and make it work for our people?" | 0:49:17 | 0:49:21 | |
How are we going to do that? The growth of technology. | 0:49:21 | 0:49:24 | |
Well, I think every technological revolution leads to people | 0:49:24 | 0:49:28 | |
saying, "We're going to have mass unemployment." | 0:49:28 | 0:49:31 | |
Technology today is more advanced than at any time in history, | 0:49:31 | 0:49:34 | |
and we have many, many more jobs today | 0:49:34 | 0:49:38 | |
than at any time in history. | 0:49:38 | 0:49:40 | |
But what I was going to complement this last set of remarks was... | 0:49:40 | 0:49:45 | |
-From Katy? -..that in fact... By Katy. | 0:49:45 | 0:49:46 | |
..is that another elephant that's is in the room, if you like, | 0:49:46 | 0:49:51 | |
that's Sam's phrase, is that the intellectual property rights | 0:49:51 | 0:49:55 | |
regime that has been constructed in the last 20 years is that elephant. | 0:49:55 | 0:50:00 | |
What it's done is it's tripled the number of patents, | 0:50:00 | 0:50:04 | |
for example, that big corporations are taking out. | 0:50:04 | 0:50:06 | |
But if you've invented something... | 0:50:06 | 0:50:08 | |
No, but many of these are not inventions. | 0:50:08 | 0:50:12 | |
Many of these are the results of numerous people, | 0:50:12 | 0:50:16 | |
but the big corporations buy up thousands of patents | 0:50:16 | 0:50:21 | |
and they string them together - it's called hoovering. | 0:50:21 | 0:50:25 | |
They string them together and they can turn that | 0:50:25 | 0:50:28 | |
into billions and billions of dollars. | 0:50:28 | 0:50:30 | |
It is about control. Hoovering, David? | 0:50:30 | 0:50:32 | |
Wait, let me finish, please. | 0:50:32 | 0:50:34 | |
The hoovering of patents and copyright | 0:50:34 | 0:50:38 | |
is actually generating a phenomenal rentier economy, | 0:50:38 | 0:50:43 | |
where these patents give a monopoly income of 20 years. | 0:50:43 | 0:50:48 | |
So nobody else can produce that product once it's patented. | 0:50:48 | 0:50:52 | |
-OK... -In pharmaceuticals... -I will come to David. | 0:50:52 | 0:50:55 | |
Linda, what do you make of this? Hoovering. | 0:50:55 | 0:50:58 | |
I think the other term is "patent trolls" as well, | 0:50:58 | 0:51:02 | |
where you patent so that you prevent other people from doing that. | 0:51:02 | 0:51:06 | |
Moving ahead, what do you do, how do you control this? | 0:51:06 | 0:51:09 | |
I think every government has a responsibility to make sure | 0:51:09 | 0:51:13 | |
that what is happening in the economy benefits its people, | 0:51:13 | 0:51:18 | |
whether it is productivity, whether it is growth, whether it's wages. | 0:51:18 | 0:51:21 | |
-But no government can control that. -No, but you can do two things. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:24 | |
You can take global leadership in making sure that the institutions | 0:51:24 | 0:51:28 | |
are not dictated to by one powerful country. | 0:51:28 | 0:51:30 | |
Can I stop you there? What is global leadership? | 0:51:30 | 0:51:33 | |
Are we expecting politicians to think beyond the electoral cycle? | 0:51:33 | 0:51:37 | |
Clearly I'm less cynical than you, Nicky! | 0:51:37 | 0:51:39 | |
What I mean is, so, for instance, on trade, | 0:51:39 | 0:51:42 | |
we have seen essentially more protectionism | 0:51:42 | 0:51:44 | |
and people are sort of rolling back, and you can actually, as a nation, | 0:51:44 | 0:51:48 | |
say we think that opening up markets has been very good | 0:51:48 | 0:51:52 | |
over the past few decades, but there are problems to deal with. | 0:51:52 | 0:51:56 | |
In a sense, you tackle the institution. | 0:51:56 | 0:51:58 | |
Any country. It could be Britain, it could be China, | 0:51:58 | 0:52:01 | |
it could be any country doing this. | 0:52:01 | 0:52:03 | |
But I want to probably focus a bit on what countries could do | 0:52:03 | 0:52:06 | |
within their own nation, which I think is absolutely possible. | 0:52:06 | 0:52:11 | |
So the debate around how you deal with the fact that trade | 0:52:11 | 0:52:14 | |
and globalisation tends to benefit the economy as a whole | 0:52:14 | 0:52:18 | |
and disproportionately some, including corporations. | 0:52:18 | 0:52:21 | |
But there are always distributional consequences. | 0:52:21 | 0:52:24 | |
So, with those who are left behind, do you redistribute, | 0:52:24 | 0:52:28 | |
or do you undertake pre-distribution policies? | 0:52:28 | 0:52:31 | |
Redistribution is giving somebody help if they lose their job | 0:52:31 | 0:52:34 | |
because of either technology, automation taking their job, | 0:52:34 | 0:52:39 | |
or, you know, the country doesn't... | 0:52:39 | 0:52:42 | |
Pre-distribution - is that the way ahead? | 0:52:42 | 0:52:44 | |
Pre-distribution is about investing in education and skills | 0:52:44 | 0:52:47 | |
so you are more flexible to adapt. | 0:52:47 | 0:52:49 | |
This was the great contract, you know, go back to the 1990s, | 0:52:49 | 0:52:52 | |
we had this contract, the new Democrats, | 0:52:52 | 0:52:54 | |
Clinton, new Labour, Blair | 0:52:54 | 0:52:56 | |
they said accept globalisation and you have no fear - your job may go | 0:52:56 | 0:53:01 | |
but we'll retrain you for another job. | 0:53:01 | 0:53:03 | |
The truth is, it really didn't happen, | 0:53:03 | 0:53:05 | |
and this is one of the reasons why populism has emerged in, | 0:53:05 | 0:53:08 | |
you know, the early part of the 21st century, | 0:53:08 | 0:53:11 | |
because people felt that deal was not fulfilled. | 0:53:11 | 0:53:14 | |
Just pull the camera back, we need a more moderated globalisation, | 0:53:14 | 0:53:18 | |
with many more national vetoes. | 0:53:18 | 0:53:20 | |
The nation state is absolutely key here, and we underestimate... | 0:53:20 | 0:53:23 | |
Is that easier inside or outside Brexit for us? | 0:53:23 | 0:53:26 | |
I mean, I think in some ways, outside. | 0:53:26 | 0:53:29 | |
I mean, I was a reluctant Remain. | 0:53:29 | 0:53:31 | |
I said "outside Brexit", that made no sense at all. | 0:53:31 | 0:53:34 | |
I meant "with Brexit". | 0:53:34 | 0:53:36 | |
I was a reluctant Remain, but I do think, I mean, in certain ways... | 0:53:36 | 0:53:39 | |
Look, we are going to be constrained by global markets, | 0:53:39 | 0:53:42 | |
whether we are inside the European Union, or outside the EU. | 0:53:42 | 0:53:45 | |
But we're constrained by the European Union. | 0:53:45 | 0:53:47 | |
We are one voice amongst 28 when we are inside the European Union, | 0:53:47 | 0:53:50 | |
so I think we do... | 0:53:50 | 0:53:51 | |
But just think of the bigger picture of rich countries. | 0:53:51 | 0:53:53 | |
We have very different kinds of regimes. | 0:53:53 | 0:53:55 | |
Think of how different Japan is from the United States, from Germany. | 0:53:55 | 0:54:00 | |
We have the European model, the Japanese model, | 0:54:00 | 0:54:03 | |
we have a much more laissez-faire, liberal model, | 0:54:03 | 0:54:06 | |
and yet corporations have to adapt to all of these, | 0:54:06 | 0:54:09 | |
but we are making corporations the new bogeyman. They are not perfect. | 0:54:09 | 0:54:13 | |
But we can produce... | 0:54:13 | 0:54:14 | |
equally wealthy countries with really different regimes. | 0:54:14 | 0:54:17 | |
The nation state has more power than we think. | 0:54:17 | 0:54:19 | |
Let Douglas comment, he hasn't spoken for a while. | 0:54:19 | 0:54:22 | |
The other thing, just quickly, is that corporations and things, | 0:54:22 | 0:54:25 | |
they are not entities that are impossible to affect. | 0:54:25 | 0:54:28 | |
I was speaking to somebody from Silicon Valley recently, | 0:54:28 | 0:54:30 | |
one of the big tech firms there, who was saying, you know, | 0:54:30 | 0:54:33 | |
the way in which they have developed politically, for instance, | 0:54:33 | 0:54:36 | |
these are corporations with more money than a lot of countries. | 0:54:36 | 0:54:39 | |
But the way they've developed and their idea of politics, | 0:54:39 | 0:54:42 | |
is sort of teenage. | 0:54:42 | 0:54:43 | |
They've grown so fast that their hands have gone | 0:54:43 | 0:54:46 | |
a bit faster than their legs have extended and so on. | 0:54:46 | 0:54:50 | |
These are entities which are profoundly available | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
to be influenced by politics, by public sentiment, by public mood. | 0:54:53 | 0:54:57 | |
They are far more vulnerable to all of these things than we think. | 0:54:57 | 0:55:00 | |
People power. | 0:55:00 | 0:55:02 | |
I would like to come back to... The whole point of effective leadership | 0:55:02 | 0:55:06 | |
that isn't authoritarian and autocratic is to bring people | 0:55:06 | 0:55:09 | |
along with you and to be seen to support their interests | 0:55:09 | 0:55:13 | |
and their advancement. | 0:55:13 | 0:55:14 | |
One of the issues is, I think governments worldwide | 0:55:14 | 0:55:17 | |
and all the international bodies are just too... | 0:55:17 | 0:55:20 | |
They're kowtowing to corporations, and, yes, they're very powerful, | 0:55:20 | 0:55:23 | |
but the fact is that most of the jobs, and a lot of the economic job, | 0:55:23 | 0:55:27 | |
is still with small businesses and small enterprises. | 0:55:27 | 0:55:29 | |
That's actually the backbone of the economy. | 0:55:29 | 0:55:31 | |
If you do want to attract jobs, it's an absolute myth... | 0:55:31 | 0:55:34 | |
I mean, tax is important, as you were saying, | 0:55:34 | 0:55:37 | |
but corporations and firms are often calling your bluff | 0:55:37 | 0:55:41 | |
when they say they'll leave you if you don't reduce tax to this level, | 0:55:41 | 0:55:44 | |
because what they really care about is an educated, | 0:55:44 | 0:55:47 | |
healthy workforce, infrastructure which is publicly provided for, | 0:55:47 | 0:55:50 | |
therefore tax needs to be paid to provide it, | 0:55:50 | 0:55:53 | |
and political stability, | 0:55:53 | 0:55:55 | |
and an educated workforce. | 0:55:55 | 0:55:58 | |
So it's not this ruthless supposed competition of corporations. | 0:55:58 | 0:56:05 | |
It's actually incredibly heavily subsidised. | 0:56:05 | 0:56:07 | |
Just to go back, I think if we are to have globalisation | 0:56:07 | 0:56:11 | |
that people support, I dread to think of a model of globalisation | 0:56:11 | 0:56:14 | |
where we have free movement of goods and capital, | 0:56:14 | 0:56:17 | |
without a relatively free movement of people | 0:56:17 | 0:56:21 | |
because then I think people are going to feel very vulnerable... | 0:56:21 | 0:56:24 | |
I'll come to you in a minute, Linda. | 0:56:24 | 0:56:26 | |
But, Guy, the minimum basic income, | 0:56:26 | 0:56:28 | |
and you must do it in a very short time. One answer. | 0:56:28 | 0:56:31 | |
We are running out of time. | 0:56:31 | 0:56:33 | |
A very complex issue we've been working on for 35 years...! | 0:56:33 | 0:56:37 | |
-I know, but you are a very skilful man. -Very simple man. | 0:56:37 | 0:56:40 | |
I think our income distribution system has broken down. | 0:56:40 | 0:56:43 | |
I don't think our real wages will be rising much in the future | 0:56:43 | 0:56:47 | |
because of globalisation, | 0:56:47 | 0:56:49 | |
and I think the incomes going to the rentiers | 0:56:49 | 0:56:52 | |
and finance will go up and up. | 0:56:52 | 0:56:54 | |
The precariat, the group I write about, are growing in numbers | 0:56:54 | 0:56:59 | |
and experiencing growing insecurity, impoverishment and so on. | 0:56:59 | 0:57:02 | |
A basic income would be part of a new distribution. | 0:57:02 | 0:57:06 | |
You used the term pre-distribution. I don't feel comfortable with that. | 0:57:06 | 0:57:10 | |
But I actually believe in a basic income | 0:57:10 | 0:57:13 | |
for three philosophical reasons. | 0:57:13 | 0:57:15 | |
Make them quick. | 0:57:15 | 0:57:17 | |
I understand, I understand I'm under pressure. | 0:57:17 | 0:57:18 | |
-The first one... -We're all under pressure, that's globalisation. | 0:57:18 | 0:57:21 | |
-You're taking up my time! -You've only got two now! | 0:57:21 | 0:57:25 | |
-The first is social justice. -Right. | 0:57:25 | 0:57:27 | |
I go back to Thomas Paine in that regard, | 0:57:27 | 0:57:30 | |
saying it's a return on the collective wealth of society. | 0:57:30 | 0:57:34 | |
Second, I think it would enhance freedom. | 0:57:34 | 0:57:37 | |
-We all claim we believe in freedom. -And the third? | 0:57:37 | 0:57:41 | |
You can't have freedom if you're insecure. | 0:57:41 | 0:57:43 | |
The third one is that it would give basic security and | 0:57:43 | 0:57:46 | |
psychologists have shown that if you don't have basic security, | 0:57:46 | 0:57:50 | |
your mental IQ suffers and those are the philosophical reasons. | 0:57:50 | 0:57:53 | |
You've got 30 seconds to wrap it up for us, Linda. | 0:57:53 | 0:57:57 | |
Pre-distribution is a terrible term, but what it really means is | 0:57:57 | 0:58:02 | |
that the workforce today has to be properly skilled | 0:58:02 | 0:58:06 | |
with education and training and options, should the economy change. | 0:58:06 | 0:58:10 | |
In other words, instead of focusing on coming up with money | 0:58:10 | 0:58:15 | |
after the fact, redistribution, you have to make sure that this country, | 0:58:15 | 0:58:20 | |
not just the young people, | 0:58:20 | 0:58:21 | |
but people who have to move into new industries, | 0:58:21 | 0:58:24 | |
can get access to coding, programming, the internet, | 0:58:24 | 0:58:27 | |
has enabled them to do better, we must ensure that they can. | 0:58:27 | 0:58:30 | |
That's pre-distribution. | 0:58:30 | 0:58:32 | |
Give them all a round of applause. Brilliant. | 0:58:32 | 0:58:35 | |
As always, the debate continues on Twitter and online. | 0:58:35 | 0:58:37 | |
Join us next Sunday from London. | 0:58:37 | 0:58:39 | |
For now, goodbye from everyone in Salford. Thanks for watching. | 0:58:39 | 0:58:43 |