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Today on The Big Questions: taxes and fair shares; taking | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
offence; and facing death with and without God. | :00:07. | :00:25. | |
Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
Today we're live from Oasis Academy MediaCityUK in Salford. | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
Promises about tax always play a big part in elections. | :00:36. | :00:44. | |
Pledges not to increase VAT, National Insurance or income taxes | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
in the Tories' 2015 manifesto came back to haunt the Chancellor, | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
Philip Hammond, when he tried to balance his recent budget. | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
We'll find out next week whether that pledge still stands. | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, has warned all those earning ?80,000 | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
a year or more that they may be paying more tax | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
And their leaked manifesto promises various rises in spending that | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
And the LibDems are saying everyone should pay 1% more tax to fund | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
But is there a limit to what is fair? | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
Is it right to take more than 50% in tax? | :01:19. | :01:29. | |
Pfizer Sheehan, would you do it, whether it is mixed, a little bit of | :01:30. | :01:37. | |
money, revenue neutral, people change their behaviour, would you do | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
it anyway on a point of moral principle? It should raise more | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
money, even where it wasn't, it's because people are avoiding tax and | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
that's another issue. I wouldn't give people lower tax because they | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
are avoiding tax, giving people a reward. I understand but it | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
behaviour changes and you can't change it, but Ulster be avoidance, | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
look at France, 75% tax on super-rich raising about 100 and six | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
-- 160 million euros, as far as I remember it the national deficit was | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
80 billion. The darling of the centre-left, Emmanuel Macron said it | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
was Kubot without the sunshine. The issue is, why are people changing | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
their behaviour and I think tax gets a bad rap. If we didn't have texts | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
-- taxes, public resources, schools hospitals and roads would suffer. | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
Places they don't have tax resources, it's scary, tax is the | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
price we pay personal life society and people avoiding it is an issue. | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
I think it's especially fared to give, charge people with higher | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
incomes higher,... Is it morally right? Yes, because we've seen | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
inequality grew somewhat, the top 1%, if we take together and it did | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
they take a bigger share of that, the top 10% per instance back in the | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
late 70s took about 1.9% more than the bottom 10% now it's nine times | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
as much, we know FTSE bosses get 108 times the average worker in the | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
company earns. They earn more. What's happened is we have seen a | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
shift towards income going, the top five and 1%, the rest of us get | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
more, we get less, so it stagnates. It's a correction to the levels of | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
the quality we have. Caroline... I don't think you're going to agree. | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
I'm not. But what about the moral issue? If you've done as well as | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
that in society it's not an attack on wealth, success, it's basically | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
saying PA little bit more, help us all be a community about it, more | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
for roads, social care, hospitals, schools... What really worries me. | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
We are all in this together. Absolutely. But what worries me as | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
the rate goes up the billionaires can do something about it but the | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
guys who earn a little bit more, workers and Sabres, they are the | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
ones who will be faced with 50% tax and I don't think that's fair. But | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
what I do think, we ought to stay start thinking about the existing | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
tax system which allows them, enables them to avoid the tax. At | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
the moment we have a very silly system in the UK for by if you are a | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
non-domicilliary you can put your money outside the UK, there are | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
incentives for keeping it abroad and in that situation, I think -- don't | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
think it's right. I think we should have a tax incentive that makes the | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
billions come to Britain and that's what we need to do. We July to load | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
the top rate of tax? I would. I'm not a policy maker but what I want | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
to see is lower the rate of tax for the simple reason that everyone will | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
feel richer and they will then spend more and if they spent more... I | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
would say around 35%. When they spend more they benefit Britain and | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
businesses in Britain. That's my plan B. Lydia, 35%, do you think | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
you'd get more money from that for the Exchequer? Remember if we can | :05:17. | :05:25. | |
get money to move we get it in taxation, we get it in VAT. Lydia. | :05:26. | :05:33. | |
Pfizer Sheehan hit the nail on the head, taxes this site shall, | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
inequality is the driver. Society is very unequal, having the rich pay | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
more tax equalises things. So when society is an equal... In Fort Wayne | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
doesn't equalise things that doesn't raise much revenue, which is the | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
argument on the other side and you would actually raise more revenue | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
for the reasons that Caroline alluded to, RUC in it's a point of | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
moral principle? No, I'm not. I'm considering evidence, I think there | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
is fairly strong evidence that more equal societies tent to do better. | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
Amber also evidence that more equal societies tend to do better whether | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
those societies are more equal of the gross income level or at the net | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
income level. So I think that's a really interesting point. Perhaps | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
tax is not really the issue. It's a collective psychological impact, in | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
a sense? Any thoughts, audience? Gentlemen in the pink shirt. I think | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
perhaps it depends on the circumstances. Right now, speaking | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
as a student many of my friends, I'm from Gibraltar, my tuition fees is | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
ordered but many of my friends and people of my generation, students | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
will be saddled with debt. We see across the road from here, the | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
homelessness in Greater Manchester and it's part of the mayoral debate, | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
40 million people looking for homes, public services are stretched to the | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
limit, if there is ever a time to raise taxes on the wealthiest in the | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
nation it's probably now. Anyone else? Are you worried it reaches a | :07:10. | :07:17. | |
rate for by its, this is the argument, it's so punitive you get | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
less money? This is a lack of care... We are beyond that. I would | :07:22. | :07:30. | |
say is the limit, around 70% maximum. But I think technically we | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
can go about 50 now. When you say 70% and I just have to say, Angelus | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
eyes nearly popped out of her head. What's wrong with 70% from people | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
who have the broadest shoulders? We have a big social care crisis. We | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
do, there is a novel lot of benevolence amongst the wealthiest | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
in society. Setting aside fiscal discussions about net benefits and | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
whether it's going to raise tax, wealth has become a Deidre word in | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
this country. -- dirty word. What we want to promote, as the mother of | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
students, and aspirational culture, they feel they work hard, hopefully | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
they will have a fulfilling life and contribute to society, hopefully | :08:16. | :08:17. | |
have a job that gives them enough solvency to enjoy life and make the | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
right moral choices with the money they earn but if they are | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
consistently browbeat -- browbeaten by the notion that it is wrong to | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
earn a decent amount of money and somehow, as you said before, you | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
pre-faced this by saying the largest amount of tax comes from those who | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
earn the most ready... More to come. I think it's a poor lesson to young | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
people. We want them to aspire, not just from a monetary position at | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
from an emotional and social welfare position. We are not ever telling | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
them wealth is a dirty word. 90% of tax comes from the top 50% in | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
society, various levels and statistics so what about that? The | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
object to the wealthy, people being wealthy? We don't want a society | :09:01. | :09:07. | |
that can be oppressive but at the same time levels of wealth | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
inequality that we have in this country, especially attached to | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
housing, a lot of young people can't afford to buy a house and they can't | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
get on the wealth ladder and so we have levels of inequality that hurt | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
aspiration, hurt social mobility. I think there's a right balance we can | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
reach and we are not there right now, we've gone from being one of | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
the most equal countries to being one of the most unequal high-income | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
countries. It was 60% under Mrs Thatcher. There are levels, I agree | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
that become punitive but 50% is not bad and I think given for we are in | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
terms of inequality in public services, young people aren't having | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
a chance and also the levels of them to generation inequality, people | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
above 40 plus have so much wealth income than those in younger | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
generations we should rebalance and the best thing is when you get | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
people on lower to middle income is more money and more ability to spend | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
they are more likely to spend it than the rich. You don't want to | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
give tax cuts to the rich because they say that. The poor spend it. | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
Alex from the taxpayers Alliance, that's a very potent point about | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
future generations. Our children and grandchildren, will does not have | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
the quality-of-life that so many of us were lucky to have had. We need | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
to invest in their future by paying more tax, don't we? There is a | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
number of points. The first is that if you think, should be taxed more | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
than 50% of peoples earnings, this is that because it happens, the 60p | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
rate of income tax, the personal allowance... What is the optimum | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
rate? Depends what you want. If you are talking strictly about revenue | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
raising, you probably are looking at some work between ?40.45, revenue | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
raising highest but I don't think the aim of the tax system should be | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
to raise as much revenue. If you want less of something tax it more, | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
if you want less wealthy tax and more, less wealthy rich people in | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
high income jobs to come to your country tax them more. It's better | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
to have lower rates to get more of these people here paying tax and | :11:16. | :11:17. | |
doing all these things in the first place. Is there proof that happens? | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
Plenty of proof, look at the 1970s... What sort of people come, | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
those who have expensive accountants... Get through a very | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
the kit system. Quite, the system is far too, Decatur but the reason why | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
people hire expensive accountants and try to avoid taxes because the | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
rates are so high, if that was 20% instead of 52%, there would be less | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
incentive for people to avoid it. Does it indicate a lack of | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
benevolence? There is less incentive, need to avoid it, the | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
rates are less punitive. The more that we tax, the more people will | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
try to avoid and the more we have anti avoidance measures and stuff | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
like that, more and more resentment comes into the system, more people | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
avoided, we are in a constant downward spiral, people constantly | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
resent the system. Let me ask Don Foster about this. It's a completely | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
backward argument, we have two children, one behaves well, one | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
misbehaves, we don't try and bribe the other child into behaving well | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
while ignoring the one who does behave well. I think rather than say | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
we have to teach aspiration, which is a big problem because we have a | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
rigid class system, we need to take responsibility so we have to ask, | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
how much money do people need? The top 1% have far more money than they | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
could ever use, they have ordered extensively and we have to crack | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
down on wealth avoidance and we have to raise revenue by raising taxes. | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
And we have to do that until we have a better social care system, that | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
NHS and we have to teach people to be democratic... Inheritance tax? | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
Wealth tax? Top rate of income tax up? They all have to go up, we have | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
to address intergenerational inequality which comes down to | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
housing, assets and the passing of love from generation to generation. | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
It's a small number of people hit by inheritance tax and they aren't hit | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
to the extent that my claim to be so I think we need to properly address | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
wealth inequality, doing that by revenue raising. You are taxing | :13:30. | :13:37. | |
people twice, and you? With inheritance tax. You are taxing | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
people twice. You are, because it's wealth that they've earned. Is it | :13:42. | :13:50. | |
fair? Yes, yes it is. Tax them twice, tax them again, tax them | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
again... I was just going to say, you're a really good writer, if you | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
wrote a book that were to be a massive JK Rowling bestseller and | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
made zillions you'd be quite happy to give more than 50% of it away? I | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
would, I have a small number of friends who are enough to put them | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
in the top 1% and they are happy to pay the full amount of tax and I | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
think we need to... JK Rowling is happy to pay her full amount, we | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
need to look at these people as role models... You haven't asked... I'm | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
sorry, did I call you Naomi? This is all very taxing, if I may say so. | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
The problem is we not talking about giving it away, were talking about | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
it being taken of people and countries with lower tax rate is, | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
the United States, in some states tax is about as high as it is in the | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
UK but generally speaking they are lower, about twice as philanthropic, | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
three times as people in the UK, the average American giving $15 a week | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
to charity. The poorest gives more than the wealthiest. What you're | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
doing by taxing and redistributing like this, you are effectively | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
raising the morale of the state above that of the individual and I | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
find that quite offensive and it's not as if the state is completely | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
benevolent. Politicians have their client groups and they have key | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
voters and they have key constituencies, it's not as if all | :15:15. | :15:16. | |
this money is going on lovely things that we can all agree with, but | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
that's trusting politicians. They are going to spend it on things that | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
we wanted to be spent on, I put the kid Spender done, but don't spend it | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
on that, even more, Decatur. More thoughts from the audience? | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
Just going back to the issue of inheritance tax, I have been | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
fortunate, I have been able to retire early from the public sector | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
and help my children. I am hoping that either for the next seven years | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
so they do not end up the charge on that inheritance tax. You have to be | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
careful, there is a lot of direct taxation and a lot of indirect | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
taxation. If you pass the house onto them no... I have been able to | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
assist them in buying houses themselves, I am doing my to give | :16:08. | :16:16. | |
them their inheritances early without the worry of not seeing them | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
able to achieve what they want to achieve. The lady beside our friend | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
from Gibraltar? With me, I can understand as a student and also I | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
graduated 18 months ago, I am setting up my own business... How | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
much debt do you have at the moment? It is quite substantial. With me, | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
what I want to do is have the ability to earn that money back from | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
my own business. I am of the opinion that if... As I say, I can | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
understand why people think it should be increased but at the same | :16:47. | :16:54. | |
time we should reward people who earn money, their own money their | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
own way, rather than taxing excessively above 50%. That is just | :16:58. | :16:59. | |
my opinion. APPLAUSE | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
Faiza, how do you have a tax system that encourages entrepreneurialism | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
and encourages people... Lots of us work hard, if they are lucky enough | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
to work hard and to make a lot of money and create a lot of jobs and | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
wealth, what is your incentive? Weedy progressive systems and we do | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
not want extreme levels, being 70, 75, 80%, they become a disincentive. | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
But for the most part we have a progressive system. Even in the US, | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
Bill Gates set up Microsoft when tax rates were double what they are now. | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
Questions about Microsoft, globally. Questions asked. There is something | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
important about the deal you make is a government, if you tax people | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
more, what you do. We have seen the top 1% in top 5% give more is that | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
we have seen the fall in middle-income jobs, we should be | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
investing back into the economy so that others can pay more tax. We | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
keep hearing that employment has gone up but the tax rate has gone | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
down because so many people are on low incomes. So what you do to plug | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
the gap in the economy should be the question. Some people pay 90% of | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
tax. But if you boost the economy you have more jobs. If you cap it | :18:17. | :18:24. | |
too high, you drain the people... We have not seen that. At extreme | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
levels you would see that, not at 50%. We have had 50% tax, there is a | :18:29. | :18:35. | |
quirk in the system now and people are leaving. Businesses would leave | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
if they did not happen educated workforce, good roads, a good health | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
system that staff could rely on, that is when businesses would leave. | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
APPLAUSE When you are dealing with businesses | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
you are talking about a system of tax that pays 19%. 19% | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
incorporation, you keep your money in your company and do not take it | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
out as income. If you take it out as income you are taxed at 45, 50, 60%, | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
you do not do it. It is terribly important that we have more | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
equality, that is why I will say bring the rate down, don't raise it | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
up for Corporation Tax, if you do that we will drive businesses out of | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
the country for the various reasons that you say that we have a safe and | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
secure country and a fantastic workforce. Khalil, as a Muslim, 10% | :19:24. | :19:34. | |
during come those two... Sorry? Is it 2.5%? I was talking about the old | :19:35. | :19:42. | |
ties! 2.5%. What, principally, do you think about taking more than | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
half of what someone earns? Some people say it is a moral duty, the | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
right thing to do is agree, some people say it is unethical and | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
immoral because you are discouraging people to work hard? Where are you? | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
The system of redistribution of wealth, the important thing here is | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
that when you live in a democracy it is not just about having a free | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
vote, it is about transparency. There have been great arguments on | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
the panel about how you use the money. What is important is when you | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
are setting the tax rate you have transparency in how that is | :20:17. | :20:26. | |
distributed. In my view it is important to recognise that the | :20:27. | :20:28. | |
economic crisis for many people and many families is not over. What we | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
need from all of the political parties when making a tax policy is | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
to understand how it will be used and have it will benefit the | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
population of the country. Thank you very much indeed for your | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
contributions, all of you. I look forward to hearing far more from all | :20:41. | :20:42. | |
of you later as we proceed. If you have something to say | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
about that debate log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, | :20:47. | :20:48. | |
where you'll find links to join We're also debating live this | :20:49. | :20:50. | |
morning from Salford: Do we have a right | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
not to be offended? And is death easier | :20:55. | :20:56. | |
if you believe in God? So, get tweeting or emailing | :20:57. | :20:58. | |
on those topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
have about the show. On Tuesday, the Irish police | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
dropped their investigation into claims Stephen Fry made | :21:08. | :21:09. | |
blasphemous remarks on a television Fry asked why he should "respect | :21:10. | :21:11. | |
a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
a world full of injustice." People have said much worse on this | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
programme over the past decade. But in Jakarta, Indonesia, | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
blasphemy has landed the Christian governor in prison, | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
after he suggested some imams had misused Koranic verses | :21:32. | :21:33. | |
to discriminate against Christian These days some students want | :21:34. | :21:35. | |
trigger warnings if a law lecturer plans to discuss a rape case | :21:36. | :21:46. | |
or a literature professor wants to analyse a gruesome play, | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
like Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus. And woe betide you if someone | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
insists they are neither male nor Do we have a right | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
not to be offended? Dawn, what's all this? What's all | :21:59. | :22:19. | |
this? When I was at university, a little while ago, I didn't want safe | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
spaces, I want a dangerous basis, I wanted challenges. We debated with | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
Communists, fascists, we didn't have is amiss in those days... I'm sure | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
you did extra measure my I joke, but not at Aberdeen University. We | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
relished that. What is the problem? We always focus on the most extreme | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
examples. I left university in 2010 and we had a big debate while I was | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
there about whether or not to remove the no platform policy for the BNP. | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
The debate was about the fact that we were a membership organisation, a | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
students union, and lots of the Jewish and Muslim students, lots of | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
the black and Asian students said that if fascists were entered into | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
their organisation we would not... They would not feel safe. We have to | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
look at the fact that everybody should be free to express political | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
opinions, up to a point where it discriminates against others. You | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
happy by Peter Tatchell and Germaine Greer who are no platform, people | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
who have fought all the way for the rights of others Daesh you have | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
people like Peter Tatchell and Germaine Greer. These great human | :23:32. | :23:38. | |
rights campaigners. Douglas Carswell from Ukip is banned from one | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
university and is an elected representative. When you have Peter | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
Tatchell and Jermaine Greer getting no platform, Islamist 's with | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
poisonous to views do not have no platform, there is not a level | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
playing field and makes no sense. A lot of the issues here are conflated | :23:57. | :24:05. | |
them not being invited to a specific debate... Trigger warnings. I would | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
not personally no platform Peter Tatchell Douglas Carswell, but there | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
is an argument against some very extreme Islamists, some very extreme | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
fascists. You have to look at whether people feel safe in their | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
organisations, their private spaces. Everybody should have the right to | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
be heard in public spaces, we were discussing Nick Griffin at | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
university, Nick Griffin not being invited to the University of Warwick | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
campus did not stop him from standing on the street and is | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
posting any views he wanted. We have to look at, for instance... When he | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
was on Question Time he made a fool of himself coming he was tested. But | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
it could have gone the other way and he could have roused applause. One | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
journalist said we were expecting Oswald Mosley and we got David | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
Brent. Adam, is it a case of trusting people? You can understand | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
Dawn's argument, someone has maybe left home for the first time, in a | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
university environment, it might stifle their confidence in | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
expressing their opinions because they have somebody so unpleasant | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
that? I exactly agree, university should be a dangerous space. The | :25:19. | :25:26. | |
University in the press is often described as a home from home, | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
universities make those points. It is not a comfy home surrounding, it | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
is a dangerous place where ideas should be tested. Within this debate | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
everybody claims to support free speech, that is the problem, they | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
say I support free speech but... But this is the exception. Where is your | :25:43. | :25:52. | |
but? There is no but. Free speech is to be absolute, so you often find | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
yourself to spending people who you disagree with entirely. A Holocaust | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
denier? If you silence people, you lose the opportunity to defeat these | :26:03. | :26:04. | |
ideas. APPLAUSE | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
You lose the opportunity to engage with them and put them down, which | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
is really important for society, more broadly. As activists and | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
citizens we should be debating and discussing things in order to build | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
a better future for everyone. That is the point of free speech. On this | :26:21. | :26:27. | |
show we have had the BNP when they had elected representatives, we have | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
had Anjem Choudary, all manner of Islamists, Tommy Robinson from the | :26:33. | :26:33. | |
EDL. People can play but we would argue it was in | :26:34. | :26:54. | |
context and there was a proper reason for it. Any thoughts from the | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
audience? The guy in the grey shirt? The right to not be offended begins | :26:58. | :26:59. | |
and ends with your right to not listen. You can't stop someone | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
else's mouth, only your own ears. You have to think for yourself. | :27:03. | :27:03. | |
APPLAUSE Stephen, does anything go with free | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
speech? I believe so. I suppose it might direct incitement to violence, | :27:11. | :27:12. | |
but how would you classify incitement? It is treating the | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
public as infants that can be incited into committing violence at | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
an instruction. We have all heard the expression it is taken, not | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
given, it is entirely subjective. What I find deeply offensive might | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
not faze the next person, vice versa. Where do you draw the line | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
and who do you trust to draw it? Given things I hear people getting | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
offended about, I trust nobody to draw that line. Who needs a safe | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
space? Possibly a group that might have a good shout for this is former | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
Muslims, they are ostracised by the larger community, it can be a great | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
risk to their personhood if they come out against Islam, vocally. I | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
speak to a lot of former Muslim groups... The guy behind you is not | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
happy at all. I work at a university. At the University I work | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
for an ex-Muslim group came up to the campus and I was asked to sit in | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
and observe, this is nonsense that ex-Muslims are somehow scared and | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
the idea that... It is not Muslims, Muslims are the most attacked people | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
in the press by everyone. You can't open a newspaper, turn on the | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
television without Muslims being attacked. In the last five minutes I | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
have heard about Islamist them used by almost everyone who has spoken. | :28:32. | :28:47. | |
Which Islamist people are you speaking to? That is offensive to | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
me. Do I had to sit here and take it? If you are an Islamist that you | :28:52. | :28:53. | |
have certain views on homosexuals, for example, if you are LGBT you | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
might find that offensive, but is it not better to debate that Islamist, | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
if I might use that term? I have had to listen to many anti-Muslim | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
comments, but there is a line. What about anti-LGBT comments? Stephen? | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
You made a point about Muslims having to put up with anti-Muslim | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
abuse, ex-Muslims have to put up with that. There are misconceptions | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
about you based on skin colour or your Arabic sounding name or | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
whatever, that is projected onto ex-Muslims, and they have the added | :29:22. | :29:23. | |
ostracisation from their own communities. Angela, would you sit | :29:24. | :29:32. | |
on a platform with a Holocaust denier? Given...? Absolutely not. | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
Absolutely not, because... Is a second-generation, both my parents | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
are survivors, my father over for and a half years in different camps, | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
including concentration camps, my mother questioned at gunpoint by the | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
Gestapo aged ten, I cannot tolerate the term Holocaust denier, because | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
Holocaust happened, it is not open to debate, you cannot debate if it | :29:57. | :30:06. | |
happened or not. It is one example, sorry, Angela, that you cannot use. | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
It is not the same as flat earth, it happened in 1939 to 1945. Excuse me, | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
you cannot deny facts. I feel really strongly. In that sense, there is no | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
debate. As far as debate goes I would like to say that I'm open to | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
free speech with a limit of... There is a limit. | :30:25. | :30:34. | |
I don't think individual psychology and emotional harm our bigger | :30:35. | :30:43. | |
principles of make-up foundation of society, I don't think it's the name | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
of mine to go out and offend people, I don't think it's good to | :30:48. | :30:49. | |
pointlessly offend people and in many ways this debate has become | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
toxic... This debate? The broader free-speech debate. The general | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
debate. The name-calling. Free speech is calling no platform | :31:03. | :31:10. | |
snowflakes, being quite aggressive, -- I think what we need to | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
understand is that free speech is a vehicle to enable us to progress as | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
a society and it is also the bedrock of freedom. All freedoms. As a | :31:21. | :31:28. | |
Moslem, the bedrock for society, we've made progress because of | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
free-speech kicking against clerical power and authoritarian power and | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
getting two where we are, the freedom to save what we want and | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
that much cherished freedom, the freedom to ridicule which said early | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
British and European thing, people who are against it, something of a | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
cultural imposition but your community has suffered greatly and | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
you feel that you have been slandered. Yes, my community has | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
suffered as a result of blasphemy laws and we might come to that as | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
the conversation progresses... In other countries. Free speech is... | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
He's shaking his head again, that fella. Sorry, carry on. Free-speech | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
is important, a fundamental right that should be protected but with | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
every right comes a level of responsibility, it's not something I | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
make up, we see that everywhere. On this programme today you wouldn't be | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
able to use abusive language, we have norms and rules that protect | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
against that, even the UK Human Rights Act... You might add to ten | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
o'clock, and I don't mean ten o'clock this morning. The UK Human | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
Rights Act has by our Parliament and our democratically elected leaders | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
talks about freedom of expression in article ten budget talks about it in | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
the context of morality, the context of responsibility. It's important, | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
absolutely important that we protect the right of spree speech but we do | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
it in a way that doesn't impose on minorities or the week... The | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
measure of democracy and the measure of our freedom is not how much we | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
are able... What exactly, we have a right, Chris Hitchens, Sunday said I | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
find that offensive and his next question was, your point is... It's | :33:14. | :33:28. | |
interesting, you identify as an Amadi muslin and it's one of the | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
largest persecuted sections of the Muslim community. Asad Shah, the | :33:32. | :33:40. | |
shopkeeper in Glasgow, held by a fellow Muslim because of his belief | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
and proclamations about faith, once you justify this offence culture you | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
provide people with rhetorical tools and justification to take matters | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
into their own hands. What we are not saying it's you can't have free | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
debate and discussion, it is absolutely important that you are | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
able to challenge what I believe, what a Jew believes, a Hindu or a | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
Christian, I defend that right, people should be able to save what | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
they want to see in order to get to the truth but when you start to use | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
free speech in order to ridicule and to insult and hurt and harm without | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
purpose, that does not benefit society. Look, I am born in a | :34:22. | :34:29. | |
century... I am born in a century... Whose truth, this is a thing? | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
Ridicule. We glory in ridicule, one at a time, Angela has been trying to | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
come in. You have been jumping up and down in your chair. You said | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
absolutely you would not... A Holocaust denier, if I can use that | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
term. She eloquently made the point that I was going to makes or I won't | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
repeat it, setting aside that it's humongous Lee offensive to Jewish | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
people or anybody who believes that shouldn't... To humanity. The | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
bleakest moment in the annals of human history but the problem is | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
what we have touched upon in this debate, there is a default position | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
in society, this generation outrage and the moral high ground is | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
overcrowded with people who are sort of ready to take offence if they | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
don't agree with you. Obviously we have social restraints about | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
incitement to racial hatred, sexual objectification of women, | :35:23. | :35:29. | |
xenophobia... But if I say Germany instead of chairperson, someone | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
leaps down my throat. Trivialising it a bit? I'm not, the issue has | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
become trivialised by those who object to the fact that the idea | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
that a wall. For example is somehow offensive to me. I wish I got more | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
wolf whistles! All, Don Foster doesn't like that, it's great, I can | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
see the expressions. Stephen in a second. I find it funny that someone | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
says we have social restraints which stop object occasion of women and | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
xenophobia and they write for the Daily Mail! I absolutely loathe that | :36:04. | :36:11. | |
argument, it's a cheap, get out of jail card. It's true. It may be but | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
you did nude the strength of your argument by saying I'll batter her | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
over the head with one of the newspapers you write for the cause | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
that way I don't have to take such a responsibility for anything else I | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
say. I'm entitled as an individual to have my point of view my point of | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
view is deeply offended by racial hatred, to racism, xenophobia, | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
sexual objectification of women. You are hypocritical. I'm not, you are | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
denying me the power of free-speech on a national television | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
programme... I can hear you. You are sat here lives as a situation of | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
censorship. I can't hear myself think. Stephen, this is the point | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
that was raised, whose truth is it anyway? Exactly, people have truth | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
that they try and base in science, for instance and people take it on | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
faith and there's all these multiple truths, I class a lot of them as | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
untruths myself but how do you compete for space in that way if you | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
get more power to run than the other? That's my opinion, there is | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
no ultimate truth and we should be open to challenge any sacred Kalb | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
numb at how many people hold it and how much it might hurt her feelings | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
if you do challenge. What about Holocaust and iris? Something as | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
ridiculous as that. There are other examples. -- deniers. My only | :37:33. | :37:43. | |
concern, Holocaust Nile is burly sinister in the fact it's | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
conspiratorial nature and if you tell people you can say that they | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
push it underground computer get to know where these people are. Denying | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
reality, something that happened. Religion is denying a reality as | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
well. I am going to collect your jacket. I think a religion is based | :38:05. | :38:12. | |
on faith and we are going to come to that in a minute. Don't worry, | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
Naomi. Faith is not something that can be proven. Faith in God is not | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
something that can be proved and it's a denial of reality, it's an | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
idea. It's man-made and it is a man-made idea. That's a question of | :38:30. | :38:36. | |
opinion. So we can debate it. And we should. It's important that we do. | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
You should be able to sit Moses didn't exist, Abraham didn't exist, | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
Mohamed existed, Jesus existed, we should be able to say that. Gentle | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
man in the jacket. Talking about free speech is an argument but | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
bottom line you shouldn't forget in this country and probably many | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
others in the world, people have died of -- died to preserve the | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
right of free speech. Have they died to provide the right to Richard | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
Tyseley and hatefully inside -- insult someone? It covers a broad | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
spectrum of thing, with free-speech, responsibility, the right to free | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
speech comes a responsibility to use it sensibly. | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
APPLAUSE Stephen, what is sensible? I think | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
free-speech has to cover everything from highbrow philosophy to gutter | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
tumour to insults to fence, the whole thing or it doesn't cover | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
anything, really. Free-speech has to be an absolute, we've had loads of | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
examples, the extreme example, the chair man, chairwoman... But Luke | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
looks plan? Taking away free speech from one person, you take it away | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
from anyone but it also as an individual speaker, it's | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
intellectually lazy to shut people up in order to win the argument. How | :40:01. | :40:09. | |
do you know your ideas are true if you never happened challenged? Do | :40:10. | :40:16. | |
you think it's a good way of testing and pushing and squeezing and going | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
through the scientific test of your own ideas? It's not a good way. It's | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
an affirmation of what you believe, a good way to test what you believe? | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
No, if you have beliefs that are never challenged and you never have | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
to defend them, you can never learn and develop your ideas. You stay | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
stagnant and you become intellectually lazy and there's no | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
proof, a lot of people who call themselves progressives in | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
university, they are the antithesis in my mind to what is progressive. | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
Thank you all very much. I know, many of you still raring to go. We | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
have time, joining the debate this morning. | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
You can join in all this morning's debates by logging | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions then follow the link | :41:12. | :41:13. | |
Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq | :41:14. | :41:16. | |
Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too - | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
Is death easier if you believe in God? | :41:20. | :41:21. | |
And if you'd like to be in the audience at a future show, | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
email [email protected] We're in Peckham in South London on May | :41:25. | :41:26. | |
28th for the final two programmes of this series. | :41:27. | :41:28. | |
There will be the usual live programme in the morning | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
and in the afternoon we're recording a special | :41:32. | :41:33. | |
They say there are two certainties in life and we have already | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
debated one of them, taxes, so now it's time | :41:40. | :41:41. | |
It comes to us all in the end but some people have it | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
much harder than others, they must face the fact they are | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
There's a documentary on this tomorrow night on BBC2 | :41:50. | :41:56. | |
called A Time to Live, and this shows people who found | :41:57. | :41:58. | |
a new intensity and joy in living, despite, perhaps because, | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
Academic research suggests facing death is easier for atheists | :42:02. | :42:08. | |
Is death easier if you believe in God? | :42:09. | :42:21. | |
Well, Doctor Elaine Sugden, good morning. How are you? Call offer of | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
talking about dying. A difficult thing to do but very important. -- | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
joint author. This is interesting, people with strong faith and | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
atheists have the fewest problems, why would that be? I think the first | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
thing to say is you are absolutely right, death is a great equaliser, | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
we are all going to die, like it or not, we try and put it off and | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
doctors try and put it off, quite rightly. Life is good, we want as | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
much of it as we can but within limits. We get onto the quality of | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
livestock, we don't want to be prolonged so long and people kept | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
alive in frailty and in a way that is not compatible with good life. | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
But to get onto the question of faith, I think it's quite right. -- | :43:16. | :43:22. | |
the quality of life. If you firmly believe that God is there and in | :43:23. | :43:30. | |
control and he's got something for you after this life or if you firmly | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
believe that as an atheist, there is no God and that this life is the | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
end, then I think those people who firmly leave can face death probably | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
with more ecumenically., haven't faced death, I do know people, | :43:50. | :44:01. | |
mainly because I am a Christian, who are firmly believing Christians, | :44:02. | :44:03. | |
Bible believing Christians who have put their trust into the form of God | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
that appeared on earth in Jesus Christ and firmly believe that there | :44:11. | :44:17. | |
is another life, we don't know, we believe it's good, after this one. | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
Our people worried that it is not going to be good, there are those | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
worried about judgment? I think maybe these are the people in | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
between, the people who don't know. I think there must always go through | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
your mind what if? Maybe through my mind what if there isn't? Well, | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
that's fine, I wouldn't mind if this was the end. What if there is and I | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
am separated one way or another from those that I love? As well? | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
Separation honours, you never see them again but separation, the | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
concerned but in judgment you may not see each other? Yes, you mention | :44:56. | :45:02. | |
judgment and the Bible clearly talks about a time of judgment after death | :45:03. | :45:10. | |
when we are going to be judged for not necessarily just what we've done | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
in this life but whether we have committed, whether we believe in God | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
and whether we've committed our lives to Jesus Christ. And therefore | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
as he says, after that, with forgiveness and reconciliation with | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
God, and to live with him for ever, we don't know quite what that means. | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
A lot of people have not committed themselves to Jesus Christ and I | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
think, you have, Jacqueline. Let me just tell everyone, you are a | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
palette of cancer care patient, thank you for coming in. What are | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
your thoughts on facing death and where do you get your strength from? | :45:50. | :46:00. | |
I've been a lifelong Catholic, and in that time I've ignored God, I've | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
rejected him and I've taken him for granted. Over the years, my | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
experience has been that he's loved me more and more and enriched my | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
life more and more. For many years I've been carried on the blanket of | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
love and prayer by a lot of people, many of whom I don't know. In | :46:20. | :46:28. | |
September 2014 I became very ill and it turned out I had an unusual over | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
area and cancer had tangled itself with my bowel and stuck itself to my | :46:33. | :46:40. | |
blush at the -- bladder. Because everything was blocked by was in | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
imminent danger of death. I reached the point of being in imminent | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
danger of death about half a dozen times over the last two years and | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
nine months, and it's quite a scary place to go. But that blanket of | :46:53. | :47:03. | |
love and prior strengthened and uplifted me in the darkest times -- | :47:04. | :47:11. | |
blanket of love and prayer. Far from being afraid of dying, as those | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
times when it became most imminent, I felt a jolly and almost an | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
eagerness to go. That was mitigated by the sadness of leaving those that | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
I loved because I knew that I'd be cared for. I am convinced that there | :47:28. | :47:39. | |
is a God. A great, good, powerful God who loves us beyond all telling, | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
loves everyone of us. APPLAUSE | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
And nothing can separate us from that love, but we have free will, we | :47:47. | :47:56. | |
can choose to reject that love. Can I ask you, do you think some of the | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
atheists in the audience or watching at home are in for a pleasant | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
surprise? If I'm totally wrong and there is nothing but an endless | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
sleep beyond death, then I would be happy with that. There have been | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
times in my life when I would have committed suicide if I'd thought | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
that, simply to get to that. Not existing, just like we didn't before | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
we were born? There would be no painful suffering, no injustice, no | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
war. Is I am right, all the people who do not believe in God, and that | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
is a gift, faith is a gift from God. It is not something we choose. We | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
can act for it and pray for it but it is a free gift. But for those who | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
have no faith, I hope they're going to get a wonderful surprise. | :48:50. | :48:51. | |
APPLAUSE Thank you very much. | :48:52. | :49:01. | |
Stephen, you blog is The Godless Spellchecker, maybe when you are | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
lying there and the clock is ticking you will be The Godly Spellchecker. | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
That was inspiring. Thank you for calling on me to follow that! It is | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
possible. Death makes you behave in a rational ways, certainly the fear | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
of death. It would not necessarily indicate any truth in the claims. | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
When you ask if God makes death easier, we ask this because God is | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
linked to the afterlife. I don't think you are facing death in that | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
sense, you are pretending it is not happening, you are pretending the | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
lights go off, you are reawakening and you can speak to your grandma | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
and play with your childhood pets. Sorry to be pessimistic but if you | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
know there is an end point where you are facing oblivion, you might put | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
interesting things, while you still have time. I think there is still | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
that anyway because of the separation between this life and the | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
afterlife. Death teaches you about life, death teaches you to live. It | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
is very different... What if you have a crisis of faith when you are | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
on your deathbed and wonder if you have wasted your life? | :50:12. | :50:22. | |
There is nothing wrong with that, when big things happen, be it sad, | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
like a death, or a marriage or a birth, we wonder what we should do. | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
That is a good thing, it is not a sad thing. Surely... Surely it is | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
better to put -- to do that sooner rather than later. Jacqueline? On | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
one particular occasion I was so close to death that the chief | :50:41. | :50:43. | |
surgeon stood at the end of my bed at half past 12 at night and said to | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
my daughter, if she survives until morning, we will operate at seven | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
o'clock. When you are that close to death your mind is very focused and | :50:54. | :51:00. | |
you are not being deluded or distracted by other things. You are | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
simply looking at the matter of death. When you survive something | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
like that, life becomes very, very precious and you want to make the | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
absolute best of it. But make no mistake, death is a scary place to | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
go and very often is accompanied by intense pain. I have seen several | :51:23. | :51:33. | |
people die over my lifetime. Several of those deaths were quiet, peaceful | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
and of great consolation. Two at least were horrendous. I firmly | :51:40. | :51:49. | |
believe that either a conviction of no faith at all or an absolute | :51:50. | :51:57. | |
conviction of the love of God gives great strength at the moment of | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
death. Right in front of you is Carrie from the British Unionist | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
Association, a Pastoral care trainer. Do you think there is a | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
default position from some that you need to have a deathbed conversion, | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
have you seen that? Have you seen people in that situation who have | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
been given press or offered sacraments who really did not want | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
that? That's not right in front of you is Carrie from the British | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
Humanist Association. I totally respect where you are coming from, | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
those who have had faith in life will have faith in their death. | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
Those who believe it is the one life we have will be working through our | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
lives to make sure we fulfil it to the fullest we can to lead a good | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
life and that death is just a conclusion of that and we enter. | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
Where I have found it difficult is where I have seen faith brought to | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
people as if it is something they should have to have a conversion, | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
where it can be the best irrelevant and at worst very intrusive and | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
really quite offensive when somebody actually has their own belief | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
system, like I certainly have, that this is my life and I want to live | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
it to the fullest and to help people and I will end my life in this way | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
as well. My reflections will be upon what I hope will be life was spent. | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
APPLAUSE Faiza? Just reflecting on this, my | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
mother, sadly, passed away a couple of months ago. She was of the Muslim | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
faith, it really helped her, she came close to death several times | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
and it gave her strength in those times. For those of us dealing with | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
people that die and how health Dann faith helps that those times, I am | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
really jealous of those that definitely believe she is in heaven. | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
I have a lot of questions. When you know it, when you really believe | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
that they are somewhat better, I am sure it helps. How can it not? | :54:05. | :54:06. | |
APPLAUSE My mum passed away a few years ago | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
and when I think about her and look to hurt for guidance I look up, the | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
idea was I don't look down, I look to a place where I think she will | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
be. But her memories survive. Her memories around me and I suffuse my | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
children with her wisdom, I repeat the things that she said to me, I | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
want them to be inspired by the things that she did. I am Jewish, I | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
have a very firm belief in God, the Jewish view is that this world is | :54:33. | :54:45. | |
almost a waiting room for the world to come. Not to say that all the | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
things you say are not true, we should live a fulfilling life, be | :54:49. | :54:50. | |
good and kind for being in the moment, but there might be something | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
in the world to come that will reflect that. But there is no proof, | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
none of us can say whether that lady who spoke so beautifully and | :54:57. | :54:58. | |
courageously is right or that you are right. Faith and proofs are | :54:59. | :55:00. | |
mutually exclusive, we have to follow what is in our hearts and I | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
could not survive without my Jewish faith because of that. Not to be | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
disrespectful, but the lady over there said it is not a delusion. | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
Frankly, it is. I am sorry but to think that the absence of life in | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
your body means that you are going to go off into some other world and | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
live there, it can be proven, just because it can be disproven neither | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
does not mean we should believe it. Also what the lady was just saying | :55:31. | :55:37. | |
then, you have this expectation that you are going somewhere else and I | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
think was Richard Dawkins who said that this allows people to sort | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
of... Oh, well, this life does not matter and we don't have to care | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
about the embarrassment, when really we should, we should protect our | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
planet. I did not say that. I know you did not specifically say that | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
but that argument is made. Some people are of that opinion but many | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
people of faith would say that of course we had to care for each other | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
and the environment. Hang on a second, allow me to come to Elaine. | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
People of faith generally care enormously about people in this | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
society. What if you do not... Sorry, Elaine, what if you do not | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
have Jesus Christ, you have not found Jesus Christ? Should you be | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
worried? I think that is something for us all to consider, what is our | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
faith, what does it mean? Who is God? We need to look into that. We | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
are all intelligent people and can do that. The Christian faith is | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
simple. But I think also we are missing something here because we | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
need to be looking... We have started talking about people who had | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
died and peoples memories and whether it is a good death whether | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
there is pain. Our book was really about talking about dying, we need | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
to talk about faith, yes, but we also need to talk about people's | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
fulfilment of their lives, they might be going to die at 45 but have | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
they fulfilled their lives? What have they done? Can they look back | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
and feel good about their life, have they finished it? Have they had all | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
the medicine they should have, is it time to say...? Is everyone going to | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
be OK that people leave behind? That is what my father was worried about. | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
His last words were... I said I love you, dad. He said, and I love all of | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
you. I had a patient who died in her 40s and she made sure that her child | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
and her husband could run the house on their own. They did nothing | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
before. She put all her energies of the rest of her life into that. We | :57:48. | :57:56. | |
need to talk about it. People shut off, very rarely do people talk | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
about death. We need to, we need to talk about what we would want as if | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
we were facing death. Would we want to be resuscitating, would we want | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
to be kept alive if we had a bad/? We can do that, it is all in place. | :58:10. | :58:16. | |
-- if we had a bad stroke? Faith is a part of it, as a Christian it is | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
an enormous part of my life... And should we have the ability to be and | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
the law to be in place to allow us to slip away is another huge debate? | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
With seconds of the programme left, we do not have time to go into. But | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
on another occasion we will, and on previous occasions we have. Thank | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
you for your brilliant contribution, Jacqueline. Thank you very much | :58:40. | :58:40. | |
indeed. As always, the debates will continue | :58:41. | :58:41. | |
online and on Twitter. We're back from Salford next Sunday | :58:42. | :58:43. | |
for a special on globalisation, is it making the world | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
a better place? But for now, it's goodbye | :58:47. | :58:48. | |
and have a great Sunday. | :58:49. | :58:52. |