Episode 3 The Big Questions


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Episode 3

Nicky Campbell presents live from Bradford. Topics include: Is the system still stacked against women? Does prison work? And, should religion have any role in politics?


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Today on The Big Questions: sexism, prisons and religion in politics.

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Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.

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Today we're live from Appleton Academy in Bradford.

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Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

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On Friday Donald Trump became president of the United States

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of America, having beaten Hillary Clinton in the electoral

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college, although not in the popular vote.

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Yesterday millions of women across the world took

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to the streets in protest, calling for women to have parity

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and equity at all levels of leadership in society.

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And this week, in the Swiss Alps, at Davos,

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the World Economic Forum brought together the most powerful movers

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and shakers in business, finance, and governance to discuss the state

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Prime Minister Theresa May was there, but she was part

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of a minority group - only a fifth of the

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Is the system still stacked against women?

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Well, Aisha Ali-Khan from Shipley, feminist zealot, so-called because I

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think the MP Philip Davies referred to you as zealots, so you took it

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and ran with it? We owned it, basically, we thought, this is what

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we will be branded as, we might as well only at. It's great to have a

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zealot on the programme, it's not the first time! Listen, what does

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victory by a man whose apparent views about women, what is it with

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these apparent views about women, what does it tell you about where we

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are in the struggle for equality? I think with Trump's election, I think

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we've gone backwards massively. I think if we can have somebody in the

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White House with views that are so degrading to women, and the comments

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that he's made over the years, not just obviously during the election

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campaign, but previously as well which then came to light during the

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election campaign. If somebody like that, with his views, is in the

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White House today, I don't know what hope we have for women across the

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world. Belinda is gearing up here. This is just one dinosaur, isn't it?

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Hang on the second, I will be going around the audience shortly. This is

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just one dinosaur. The universities are full of young women. The march

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of progress goes on and the promised land will be reached, surely? The

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sad thing is that it's not just one politician or one person or one

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reader. We have so many similar minded people over the world. Look

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at Philip Davies, his comments around equality, women and so on, he

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has an issue with women who want equality,... Do you think those

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views are prevalent, widespread, common amongst men, still? I think

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the danger is that these men have platforms with which they can

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disseminate these views to a much wider audience. Last night we had

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Piers Morgan who took to his Twitter account and he branded feminists

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rabid feminists, women at work protesting. Protests are really

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inconsistent because I've not seen any protests against the Saudi

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government even though people know for years women have not been

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allowed to drive or do anything. We have so many amazing feminists, so

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many amazing women who are protesting. And these are obviously,

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I recognise the fact that women in Saudi Arabia, and not just in

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Islamic countries, who are being discriminated against, who do not

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have the same access to education, health care. That's part of the

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struggle, obviously. Belinda. I think the important thing is that

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we're talking about feminism in this country, we are talking about women

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in this country, we should not be using the terrible situations of

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women and men in developing countries to boost the feminist

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campaign. Speaking personally as a woman, I don't feel I have ever

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experienced disadvantage. Ayew a feminist? Absolutely not, no.

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Strongly opposed to feminism. And this idea, are things stacked

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against women? When I look around me, the evidence is pointing to

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actually things stacked against men. If you look at the education system,

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all the way through, boys are disadvantaged in relation to girls,

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resulting in 33% more women ending up at university resulting in the

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fact that up to the age of 35 women are actually earning slightly more

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than men. There are all kinds of ways. But women have to do so much

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better and achieve so much more to get to the same level. That is a

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complete myth, that is a complete myth. The reason why women are not

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at the same level in politics is because of choices we make. We

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prioritise our families and our private lives more than men do. We

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are not talking about inequality. Do you want to come in, Jackie? I was

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rather taken aback by the passion. I feel a lot of passion about the lack

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of parity, the lack of equality. But it's a myth? I think the myth is

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that we have equality, parity. I think we still have a long way to

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go. I think there's been great strides in terms of women in

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society, women in organisations, there's been focused on developing

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women in more senior roles at leadership levels, but we still have

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a long way to go. Belinda says it's because of the choices that women

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make. I think we do have choices and I think feminism isn't against

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choice. The idea of feminism is that we have the opportunity to choose to

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eat what we want to do, whether we want to work, whether we don't want

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to work, whether we have careers, whether we don't. It's all about

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choice. There are a couple of things there. I don't think feminism is

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about choice, it's actually put women in a situation where now we

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are much more compelled to work than ever we were before. We are forced

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to go out and leave our children in child care and much earlier ages.

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And let's look at the facts, who lives five years longer? Women do.

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Who constitute the majority of homeless, about 95%, men do. In all

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these different areas. Who constitutes 79% of the suicide rate?

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Who gets sentenced for longer times? Men do. Who gets less funding on

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health care? Men do. It's hard to find one area where women are

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disadvantaged in relation to men. I think it's really unfortunate to

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conflict things like homelessness statistics and the length of prison

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sentences solely on the grounds of gender. The things we talked about

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so far around women and men are all happening in a context that is all

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happening in a context. And directly strongly disagree with a lot of the

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points that you have made around education. The idea is when I buy my

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niece and nephew clothes, I can buy a superman outfit or a Little

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Princess outfit, and it begins even before the womb. We are so

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conditioned. And in our parliament we have 29% of the MPs are female.

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20% of the Conservative MPs, chosen by committee is full of women. At

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every level across our society, statistically and anecdotally we

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still do not have equality, and to suggest that as a feminist I should

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only care about women in this country is deeply offensive. Allow

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me, if I may, to go to the audience. After your opening salvo which was

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absolutely fascinating, lots of hands went up. Good morning. My

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point is, there is a quality to certain levels up to middle

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management level, I think we are talking about, employment or even if

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we are talking about political roles. The gap really widens when it

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gets to leadership level. And what I've observed, and I've talked to

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hundreds of women on this subject is, often it's because other women

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are judgment or about other women. There is discrimination. But when we

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get to a certain level we pull up the ladder is behind us and that's

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really unhelpful and that is why changes and happening as quickly in

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my opinion. Good morning, are you a feminist? Yeah, I am a strong

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feminist and I'm actually quite shocked, it is quite worrying to

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hear people still today misinterpreting feminism. For me

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feminism is literally just all about equality. It really annoys me when

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you have misogynists such as Philip Davies saying that, yeah, but men

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have higher suicide rates. We completely agree, that's feminism.

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Ironically the fact that men have high suicide rate is because of the

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fact they don't feel comfortable expressing themselves. The whole

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point of feminism, the whole point behind feminism is to deconstruct

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this kind of gender expectations so many feel comfortable to express

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their emotions so men, if it's their choice, and let's say for example

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you have a couple and a man has a lower paying job than the female,

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that they feel comfortable being a househusband. That is actively

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supporting feminism. And these statistics you are coming out with,

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I completely agree with the lady with the purple hair, it should not

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be seen in a vacuum. You have intersections with race, class, and

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to say that there are white working class men out there, I completely

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agree, but it's not just based on gender. Why are you rolling your

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eyes at what she is saying? There are some basic points which

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undermine this whole argument. As women and men, biology doesn't make

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as equal, it makes us different. And because of that, if I may, I did

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listen to you, it means that women biologically may have to make

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different choices. Even if they have childcare from the day after they

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deliver a baby, they might be in a hormonal cauldron that makes them

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make different choices to the ones they perceive they might make. The

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other thing about living in a meritocracy is that it should be the

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best man or women for the job. So female quotas or short lists, I

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don't want to be chosen for a job because of that, I want to be the

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best person for that job. It may be because of lifestyle choices, or

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because they are not good enough, that women are not getting the

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positions of. But how do you address the inequality? Aisha? The numbers

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do not lie. Fortune 500 companies, only 4.4 have female CEOs. Maybe

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they're not good enough! Internationally, across the world,

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and what she said is spot on, yesterday the female zealots raised

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over ?100,000 on the day in donations, half of which are going

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to Women's Aid, and half are going to a charity that helps prevent male

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suicide. So we are not against men, we support men, we support everybody

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who is disadvantaged, discriminated against. One of the big issues is

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there is a problem of raising awareness for the issues men and

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boys have an feminist organisations have systematically been undermining

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this process. For example, York University, 2005, men stay was

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marked as an important point in time -- men's day. But a group of 200

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almost only female feminists took it off the agenda, they protested

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against it. This is a good example of it and that is the problem. Women

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have bigger issues but we need to have a balanced view. In response to

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you, the problem is that when we raise these issues like male

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suicide, rough sleepers, 95% of people who die at work are all men

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and do the nasty work that feminists don't talk about, but when we raise

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those issues you say, we need to see it in a different context, but why?

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Why do we need to put it in a different context and when we talk

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about female issues? I work in the prison system so to tell me I don't

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know about male suicide and homelessness is very unfortunate.

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Professor Jackie Ford, I do want to hear from the men in the audience in

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just a second, don't worry, David, I will be with you, I'm doing my very

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best here. What about the point from Angela that in a true meritocracy it

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is absolutely just on your merits, your talents, your abilities, and

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the fact that there aren't more women at the top as CEOs of the top

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companies, she said it might just be because they are not good enough?

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Well they are not good enough if you only class the norms of behaviour as

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masculine norms. Privilege and in a hidden way what we value here are

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masculine characteristics and behaviour is. What are they?

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Rationality, aggressiveness, ruthlessness, these are what are

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going to be rewarded in our leadership roles. We talk about this

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great heroic charismatic leaders. Ruthlessness and aggression? Rather

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than a more collective approach to leadership which gets a lot of

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mileage, of entertaining issues. Are those feminine characteristics? They

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might be. I'm suggesting that both men and women can have masculine and

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feminine characteristics. What are the strengths? We draw also on

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communal behaviours, draw on emotion, recognise passion, and

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views about other issues, allow people to speak, and not get talked

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over. Some of those are the issues. I do my best! It wasn't personal!

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Bishop Toby? I came in as a bishop before there were women bishops and

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now, thank God, there are women bishops. It took much too long but

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it has made such a difference to the way we work together so it is in all

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of our interests. Women bishops, a triumph, Belinda? I'm not supportive

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of women bishops. I think it... I'm not in favour of women bishops. Why

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not? I feel it is important, we need to get more men, actually, into the

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church, and there is a reason that we have male leadership... It is

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full of men! What about the traditional roles, as you would

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perhaps have it, have men been emasculated? Have women become

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de-feminised? I think what feminism has done has made women appear to be

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more feminine and more victim like than they ever were before. When I

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see, recently I heard this thing about, if you have got problems with

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your day, you -- with your date, you go to the bar and ask for a

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particular drink and they understand the problem. When I was young, we

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could deal with these problems and I feel feminism has made women feel

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much weaker and more helpless than they were before. This is dangerous,

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because... I agree. Your attitude is dangerous because what you are

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talking about is something we should have stamped out years ago. You are

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saying that women, because we want to keep ourselves safe, have no

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right to expect a safety from society around us. I don't

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understand why that is relevant. I think what feminism is doing is

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creating hostilities between men and women... Mary! Wait a minute, Mary?

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I class myself as a feminist, and I've seen, during my life, how

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feminism has actually enabled women to progress and get to where they

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want to. What I think feminism is about is actually about choice. It

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is about women being able to go out to work, have careers, and also the

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other side of it, I think, is also about men having choice. In my

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capacity as a member of the European Parliament, we have done a lot of

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work on worklife balance and there is more and more of the need for

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that, and there are more men who actually would prefer all wish to

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spend more time at home with their families. And, for me, that is what

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it is about. I must come back to this question about quotas for

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women. Women are just as good as men and we have to get that in our

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heads. APPLAUSE.

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I would like to say I am a declared non-feminist because I think a lot

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of the current feminist arguments are spoiling for an argument. That

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campaign about getting Jane Austen on a bank note, I want the same

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number of banknotes as my male colleague, I don't care whose basic

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is, it could be Mickey Mouse as far as I'm concerned. I went to school

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amongst the alumna of my old school, they were suffragettes. We were

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encouraged to aim high, powered through any ceiling, the first

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female bishop in the country went to my old school, Lee B Lane, I went to

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school with her. There was no suggestion even back then, several

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years ago, that she was in anyway held back. I can't speak on her

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behalf. So this notion that somehow we are being arm locked because

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society is clipping our wings, I think it is nonsense. If there are

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concerns such as sexual objectification of women, heinous

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conduct towards women, it is a concern for all society, and as far

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as Donald Trump is concerned, he was elected by a majority. Peter,

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quickly, then we will have some hands up in the audience. I think

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feminism is a beautiful thing, one of the most profound and insightful

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things understandable inhumanity. The ethics of care that feminism

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brings us, I think it is a way of understanding both men and women,

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the lady who spoke behind as putted beautifully, absolutely fantastic,

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and as an man I would say I think feminism is fantastic and I think we

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should have more feminism, it is very important. And to go back to

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one point, the feminisation of poverty, since the 70s there have

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been more and more women impoverished, going without food to

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feed their children, you are missing the point. Think about what the

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world was like before feminism... Feminism in principle sounds really

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good. I think all of us, all humanity, men and women, we all have

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sons and daughters, we care about both genders. The problem I think is

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with the sort of extreme feminist activist who undermine initiatives

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to raise awareness, and I have just given and it -- given a good example

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of it, and there are many. You have only seen from the sideline the

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positive news stories but people who look into these issues, called

:20:45.:20:50.

anti-feminist, they can show you exactly what sort of things are

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going on. We have to leave it there, thank you all very much indeed for

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that, thank you. APPLAUSE.

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It was considered and consensual and it was just... If you have got

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something to say about the debate, log onto bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions

:21:10.:21:13.

and follow the link, where you can join in the discussion online or

:21:14.:21:14.

contribute on Twitter. We're also debating

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live this morning at Bradford's Appleton Academy -

:21:17.:21:18.

does prison work? And, should religion have

:21:19.:21:20.

any role in politics? So get tweeting or emailing on those

:21:21.:21:22.

topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may

:21:23.:21:25.

have about the show. Last November, the Justice

:21:26.:21:31.

Secretary, Liz Truss, promised prisons were going to get

:21:32.:21:33.

their biggest overhaul A couple of days later

:21:34.:21:35.

there was a riot at Bedford Prison involving 200 inmates,

:21:36.:21:41.

followed a month later by another riot of 240

:21:42.:21:43.

prisoners at HMP Birmingham. Reductions in prison staffing,

:21:44.:21:49.

gang violence, and psychoactive This week the House

:21:50.:21:51.

of Commons Select Committee on Justice began examining

:21:52.:21:54.

the Government's plans. Many critics say the biggest

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question they need to address Let's address that one. Sara, as you

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mentioned earlier on, working in prisons in the field of criminal

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Justice, men touring women in custody as well. We have got more

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prisoners in this country than any other in Western Europe, and, as a

:22:21.:22:29.

whole, only Russia and Turkey have more. Some of these statistics are

:22:30.:22:35.

stark and astonishing. Why is this happening? Well, we have got double

:22:36.:22:40.

the number of people in prison now than we had 20 years ago. Crime

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rates are going down? So much of this is directly the result of

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policy. As Bob Neill, chair of the Justice select committee, said at

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the start of the fetching on Wednesday, the wide consensus now is

:22:54.:22:56.

the prison system we have is in crisis and that is significant, the

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Conservative chair of the Justice select committee saying that. We

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know it doesn't work, by any measure, not for victims of crime,

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not for society, certainly not for the people in it when you have the

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scale of rioting and frequency of rioting, which is unprecedented

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since Strangeways 25 years ago. Peter, it is a while since you were

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in but it was pretty bad then, and you were just failing beforehand

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that it is even worse now? Yes, my first sentence was at 14 years old,

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I was a regular attendant. Not at any point was prison a deterrent or

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an event -- and intervention. Since getting released and working in the

:23:42.:23:45.

community with people that are getting out of prison, the stories

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I'm hearing now, it is getting scarier and scarier. The challenges

:23:51.:23:53.

people are facing about settling into the community after release

:23:54.:23:57.

from prison, showing the work that is taking place in the custody

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setting is not supporting them to get to a point to manage themselves

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in the community, which then encourages the cycle of offending

:24:06.:24:09.

again and back into prison. Is it just too brutal, do we need to

:24:10.:24:19.

change our society? I'm not sure it is brutal, there are examples around

:24:20.:24:21.

the world, good practice in custody settings, initiatives I'm aware of

:24:22.:24:23.

where people studying in universities and the community go

:24:24.:24:26.

into prison to study alongside prisoners, breaking down barriers

:24:27.:24:30.

and stigma that people carry. There are intervention is going on but I

:24:31.:24:34.

think, on the whole, there is not enough and it is not consistent

:24:35.:24:38.

enough, those community support networks are not consistent enough.

:24:39.:24:46.

I provide a mentoring service to address how people identify

:24:47.:24:50.

themselves, if we can get people to see themselves as somebody who can

:24:51.:24:53.

fit in with society, that is not just an offender or substance

:24:54.:24:56.

misuse, then we can raise their aspirations. And today, you will be

:24:57.:25:02.

interested in this, in Norway prisoners are allowed all manner of

:25:03.:25:08.

comforts, much more lenient, in a way that would send some of our

:25:09.:25:14.

popular press apoplectic. But the reoffending rate here is 60%, the

:25:15.:25:24.

reoffending rate in Norway is 20%. Well, you can do anything you want

:25:25.:25:29.

with statistics. If that is what they say, that is what they say.

:25:30.:25:36.

More lenient regime 's? As far as I am concerned, prison has four

:25:37.:25:40.

functions. Yes, there is rehabilitation, we want to feel

:25:41.:25:43.

people have learned something from the sobering experience prison and

:25:44.:25:46.

come out as a better person who hopefully won't reoffend. We hope it

:25:47.:25:51.

will be a deterrent. But we also hope it will keep members of the

:25:52.:25:54.

public safe. The fourth thing is anybody who has committed certainly

:25:55.:25:58.

a violent crime should have their liberty taken away from them in a

:25:59.:26:03.

way that makes them the punishment. A very simple comparison, if you

:26:04.:26:08.

jump a red light you have to do a speeding course, get points on your

:26:09.:26:11.

license, you feel it, and afterwards, if you have been done

:26:12.:26:15.

for speeding, you tend to watch the plot a bit more. It has to be made

:26:16.:26:19.

to feel that, thankfully I have not been inside... The loss of liberty

:26:20.:26:26.

in a much more lenient regime in Norway has a 20% reoffending rates.

:26:27.:26:30.

What is your conclusion other than saying, oh, statistics can say

:26:31.:26:33.

anything? My conclusion is still the fact is that prison, first of all

:26:34.:26:39.

people who commit violent crime need to be taken off the streets will

:26:40.:26:43.

stop how do you stop them committing violent crime when they come out?

:26:44.:26:47.

Some people you can hopefully rehabilitate but some people will be

:26:48.:26:53.

sobered up by the experience of prison. I would have thought

:26:54.:26:56.

somebody locked up would not want to go through it again, but if they are

:26:57.:27:01.

given an iPad, Amazon orders, a la carte food, whatever, it will not

:27:02.:27:06.

encourage them to not reoffend. I'm sorry, but prisons are exceptionally

:27:07.:27:10.

painful irrespective of the conditions that a person lives in.

:27:11.:27:15.

Prisons are about the waste of life and the consciousness of time, the

:27:16.:27:21.

sense of loss, the estrangement from family members. These are all

:27:22.:27:26.

absolutely fundamental and essential to how a prison works. You may well

:27:27.:27:33.

have other aspects, for example around austere regimes, punitive

:27:34.:27:37.

regimes, you may have restrictions in terms of access to all sorts of

:27:38.:27:41.

things like educational resources, but prisons are profoundly painful.

:27:42.:27:46.

That is why we have such a high rate of death in prison. We have,

:27:47.:27:54.

apparently, one of the highest rates ever in prison deaths. Last year,

:27:55.:28:00.

113 prisoners in England and Wales killed themselves. There are still

:28:01.:28:05.

57 awaiting classification so that number will go up. Since 1990, more

:28:06.:28:12.

than 1900 self-inflicted deaths. To top regimes work as a deterrent?

:28:13.:28:17.

There is no evidence a tougher regime will lead to the slightest

:28:18.:28:21.

decrease. In fact, what works is when we try to help people. Belinda?

:28:22.:28:28.

The evidence suggests that the longer people are in prison, the

:28:29.:28:31.

less likely they are to reoffend, and the number of deaths going up I

:28:32.:28:37.

think has coincided with slightly greater liberalisation. What you

:28:38.:28:40.

have happening is the prisoners themselves have more freedom but the

:28:41.:28:46.

really hard and ones I think our ruling get over the perhaps slightly

:28:47.:28:50.

more... There is a lot more bullying because there could be a slight, I

:28:51.:28:56.

don't know if a vacuum of authority is the right word, but a stronger

:28:57.:28:59.

regime would prevent the bullying that happens inside prisons which

:29:00.:29:02.

probably contributes towards the rates of suicide.

:29:03.:29:10.

If you want to look at what works you don't even have to go abroad.

:29:11.:29:17.

There is an intensive therapeutic community here. The highest rates of

:29:18.:29:24.

prison deaths including self-inflicted deaths directly

:29:25.:29:26.

correlates in a benchmarking exercise, you can see it drop off,

:29:27.:29:30.

presents become more overcrowded, they are understaffed, the rates of

:29:31.:29:35.

violence, assaults on staff and suicide go a long, it is that

:29:36.:29:42.

simple, the equation. As for a la carte food? ?1.81 is what prisoners

:29:43.:29:47.

spend on a whole day's food. The idea there is plenty to do, many

:29:48.:29:50.

people are currently in cells for 23 hours a day. That is why there are

:29:51.:29:57.

riots. The huge increase in violence and self-inflicted deaths. The

:29:58.:30:01.

chairman of the prison officers Association, good morning. I've

:30:02.:30:05.

listened to some of that debate and I've got to say that presents an

:30:06.:30:09.

oppressive any more, people have this view that prisons have prison

:30:10.:30:14.

officers going round giving someone a clunk when they step out of line,

:30:15.:30:21.

it does not work like that any more. You have wings in closed

:30:22.:30:24.

establishment of 200 prisoners where they've got three members of staff

:30:25.:30:27.

try to control that, there's no way three members of staff can be

:30:28.:30:31.

oppressive and maintain the levels of discipline that people are trying

:30:32.:30:36.

to allude to. What you have got is prisons run on prison officers that

:30:37.:30:41.

have away and ability of controlling and managing people without having

:30:42.:30:44.

to show force unless someone steps out of line. If there were fewer

:30:45.:30:49.

prisoners the whole thing would be easier to manage? Overcrowding is a

:30:50.:30:53.

problem, and we put people who should be in mental hospitals in

:30:54.:30:57.

prisons nowadays because we cut the funding to the NHS. So there is a

:30:58.:31:04.

concern around the population we are housing within prisons, and there

:31:05.:31:08.

are interventions for those people. They are not sufficient, I agree

:31:09.:31:20.

that to -- too time is spent behind doors. Because you do not have the

:31:21.:31:24.

numbers, you have prisoners maintaining order and they are not

:31:25.:31:27.

the people you want controlling orders, and that causes the drugs

:31:28.:31:31.

and violence and all the problems in prisons. In the long-term if we

:31:32.:31:35.

control it it will benefit society and prisons. Hello. In my view a

:31:36.:31:43.

punitive prison system does not work. Therefore we need to take a

:31:44.:31:48.

much more liberal approach. And believe it or not, there are

:31:49.:31:52.

countries in the world that servers perfectly good examples. I would

:31:53.:31:56.

also like to advocate for the Norwegian prison system as a model.

:31:57.:32:01.

Their prisons are not overcrowded, their main objective is to

:32:02.:32:04.

reintegrate those who have been excluded from society back into

:32:05.:32:09.

society. And they have one of the lowest recidivism rates in Europe

:32:10.:32:13.

and indeed around the world at 20%. Compare that to hear at 55%. Over

:32:14.:32:21.

there? I have been to prison, I served a nine-year prison sentence.

:32:22.:32:28.

I have been into category B, category a and two categories C and

:32:29.:32:33.

D. I was told different things in category a presence, you are going

:32:34.:32:37.

to come through the same door again, there's nothing out there for you.

:32:38.:32:41.

Different prison officers have different approaches. There were

:32:42.:32:44.

mechanisms and things for me to get involved and do rather than sitting

:32:45.:32:48.

in a room watching a wall and wondering when my food will be

:32:49.:32:52.

happening. The only way it's going to work is if there are more

:32:53.:32:55.

category D prisons where people can act surely go whilst they are in

:32:56.:33:00.

their knowing, if I get there, I can do something that will give me a

:33:01.:33:03.

chance to do something and get on with my life. Having a support

:33:04.:33:07.

mental, like the Prince's Trust who supported me from day one, they gave

:33:08.:33:11.

me the help and support even to this day, to say, we are there for you,

:33:12.:33:17.

we are not letting you go. Probation service can help but there are too

:33:18.:33:23.

many people to look out for. How do you feel when people say it is cushy

:33:24.:33:26.

being inside prison? I'd say come inside and have a look. You've got

:33:27.:33:34.

inmates who are getting food and what they are doing straightaway is

:33:35.:33:39.

physically throwing it at officers and saying, what is this? Give us

:33:40.:33:44.

food that is proper. That's the only thing they can afford. Do deterrents

:33:45.:33:48.

work? There's no doubt it would be beneficial to all of society if

:33:49.:33:52.

people could leave prison and unable themselves to make a useful

:33:53.:33:56.

contribution to society again. And education in prison shouldn't be

:33:57.:34:00.

seen as some kind of reward. You said earlier on when you were hoping

:34:01.:34:04.

that people would not want to go back there. So presumably I can

:34:05.:34:08.

infer from that, you think deterrence works? I think deterrents

:34:09.:34:14.

do work. If you are made to feel you are in a situation where you don't

:34:15.:34:20.

want to repeat against a .31 US states, can I just say, with the

:34:21.:34:21.

death penalty, have . The kind of people who commit that

:34:22.:34:32.

level of crime that necessitates the death crime are the kind of people

:34:33.:34:34.

that are programmed to keep reoffending anyway. OK, you can all

:34:35.:34:41.

touch and shake your head is. We are not all tutting. There is an

:34:42.:34:47.

absolute tsunami of statistics and surveys being thrown across the room

:34:48.:34:52.

here, we don't know what the criminal mentality is. Is this not

:34:53.:34:56.

dispassionate logic? We can all think about vengeance and righteous

:34:57.:35:01.

indignation. These are actually facts and statistics. Do we know how

:35:02.:35:06.

many prison officers are on duty? How many prison officers per capita

:35:07.:35:09.

are there in Norway? We don't know the broader picture. This is just an

:35:10.:35:17.

attempt to make it objectively, to you, it really does seem that you

:35:18.:35:22.

are quite unpleasant, your unpleasant desire to punish people

:35:23.:35:25.

is making you ignore the statistics that you have heard. More liberal

:35:26.:35:33.

prison regimes that give people opportunities make society safer by

:35:34.:35:37.

reducing the crime when those people come out of prison, you've just

:35:38.:35:40.

heard that, it seems really strange that you can't process it. I do

:35:41.:35:45.

think it is very risky comparing two different countries. I mean, Norway

:35:46.:35:49.

is an incredibly wealthy country. And it is a very different society.

:35:50.:35:57.

So is America. I think Norway has got a stronger economy because of

:35:58.:36:00.

its links with oil, it's got very strong welfare. I just think, I

:36:01.:36:07.

would be cautious. I'm sure there is a lot to be learned from the

:36:08.:36:11.

Norwegian system. I'm not coming down too much on one side or the

:36:12.:36:14.

other but I think we have to be very cautious comparing two countries.

:36:15.:36:21.

Bishop Toby. Some people are just irredeemable, are they not? I wonder

:36:22.:36:33.

if they are? I mean, who are we to say that somebody is or somebody

:36:34.:36:37.

isn't? The point is most of the people in prison are going to come

:36:38.:36:40.

out and the question is, are we going to enable them to live as our

:36:41.:36:45.

brother here has said in a way that is going to be positive for us all,

:36:46.:36:50.

or are we going to put them in a place where they will have to go

:36:51.:36:53.

straight back again. We haven't really talked about the economy in

:36:54.:36:57.

this. How much does it cost to repair, say, Birmingham, after that

:36:58.:37:03.

riot? If the money spent in repairing that prison could have

:37:04.:37:07.

been put in a few more prison officers to be working with you to

:37:08.:37:11.

enable that not to happen, isn't that better use of the money? To

:37:12.:37:16.

come in there, I think the debate has been reduced to staffing.

:37:17.:37:20.

Prisons have always been places of violence, suffering and death, since

:37:21.:37:26.

their inception in the 1770s. Prisons have always failed in terms

:37:27.:37:30.

of rehabilitation. Dozens are failed institutions. We cannot teach people

:37:31.:37:34.

how to be free in captivity. Two wrongs do not make a right. Our

:37:35.:37:42.

first debate was, is the system stacked against women? It is said as

:37:43.:37:48.

well that the prison system, the criminal justice system is stacked

:37:49.:37:51.

against women, is that right? Well, absolutely. Belinda is making a face

:37:52.:38:02.

beside you. I enjoy being sat here. We have a system built by men,

:38:03.:38:07.

designed by men, for men. There are just many, many things, for example

:38:08.:38:13.

when the system was rearranged, nobody thought what happens when

:38:14.:38:17.

women have babies in prison, if you look statistically of women in

:38:18.:38:22.

primary care before entering, the impact on family, and you get people

:38:23.:38:28.

in prisons that do not think about employment, that a woman would need

:38:29.:38:33.

a job and you get out. The whole journeyed there are different

:38:34.:38:36.

points. She's champing at the bit. I don't know where to begin. One point

:38:37.:38:42.

is that there is a lot more spent per woman in prison than per man in

:38:43.:38:46.

prison, women are much better funded in prison. For the same crime, men

:38:47.:38:58.

get much longer prison sentences. If you look closely at the data, for

:38:59.:39:02.

the same crime, men are likely to get longer prison sentences, they

:39:03.:39:07.

are also more likely to get sent to prison and more likely to have to

:39:08.:39:10.

sit through their prison sentences. There are also issues a family.

:39:11.:39:15.

People talk about 17,000 children without their mothers, this

:39:16.:39:18.

statistic is likely to be grossly exaggerated because it would suggest

:39:19.:39:21.

that each woman has got ten children. There are 150,000 children

:39:22.:39:27.

whose fathers are in prison. One thing they do with men, they will

:39:28.:39:31.

use as a punishment, they will say, you can't see your children because

:39:32.:39:34.

you've been bad. They would never do that with women. They absolutely do

:39:35.:39:40.

that with women. The reason why we are seeing an increasing number of

:39:41.:39:45.

people in prison, there is a constant thrust from society to

:39:46.:39:49.

punish more and more people but at the same time there's a constant to

:39:50.:39:57.

protect women. Our prison system heaves with injustice, and women

:39:58.:40:04.

from BME backgrounds, LGBT backgrounds, are disconnected

:40:05.:40:08.

against the board, it is set up, there is often a massive income

:40:09.:40:14.

inequality. Many people in our prisons are victims and my opening

:40:15.:40:18.

gambit was about, if prisons are going to work, they've got to work

:40:19.:40:21.

for victims which include some of the people. Thank you all very much

:40:22.:40:25.

indeed. You can join in all this

:40:26.:40:27.

morning's debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/thebiquestions

:40:28.:40:29.

and following the link Or you can tweet using

:40:30.:40:31.

the hashtag #bbctbq. Tell us what you think

:40:32.:40:34.

about our last Big Question too - should religion have

:40:35.:40:37.

any role in politics? And if you'd like to apply

:40:38.:40:40.

to be in the audience at a future show, you

:40:41.:40:43.

can email [email protected] We're in Glasgow next week,

:40:44.:40:48.

Southampton on February 5th This week, Christian churches around

:40:49.:40:51.

the world begin marking the 500th anniversary of the Protestant

:40:52.:41:04.

reformation in Europe. Martin Luther pinned his 95

:41:05.:41:08.

Articles to the church doors The two most senior bishops

:41:09.:41:10.

in the Church of England, the Archbishops of Canterbury

:41:11.:41:17.

and York, have called on the Church to repent its part

:41:18.:41:20.

in the Reformation, and to remember the many who died or were

:41:21.:41:23.

persecuted, both Roman Catholics and Anglicans, all in the name

:41:24.:41:33.

of the same Lord, Jesus Christ. In those times, Cardinals

:41:34.:41:36.

of the Catholic church or the archbishops of the Church

:41:37.:41:38.

of England were at the very heart of power in each

:41:39.:41:41.

Tudor monarch's court. And even now, 26 Church of England

:41:42.:41:44.

bishops still have seats Yet all the world's great

:41:45.:41:47.

faiths now have followers in today's United Kingdom,

:41:48.:41:50.

and only 49% of Britons say they are Christians,

:41:51.:41:53.

while 42% claim they have no religion at all, according

:41:54.:41:58.

to a 2015 YouGov poll. Should religion have

:41:59.:42:00.

any role in politics? There we are. Why did I know you

:42:01.:42:13.

were coming to me? The new White House is full of fundamentalist

:42:14.:42:17.

evangelical Christians, young earth creationists who believe that Jesus

:42:18.:42:21.

is coming soon, and they want it to happen soon, people who don't

:42:22.:42:25.

believe in climate change or don't care because it is a case of the end

:42:26.:42:31.

times, the rapture. They should not be allowed anywhere near power,

:42:32.:42:35.

these people. Are you asking? I'm not making a speech. Religious

:42:36.:42:44.

people in politics, that's an example, Bishop Toby, they shouldn't

:42:45.:42:49.

be allowed anywhere near it. One of the really terrible things about

:42:50.:42:54.

Donald Trump speech at his inauguration was when he asked God

:42:55.:43:00.

to bless that. But I do think that if religion is a part of some of,

:43:01.:43:04.

the source of our deepest motivations, our hopes, then it's

:43:05.:43:07.

got to be able to have a place in politics. Are you worried about some

:43:08.:43:11.

of those people at the centre of power? Of course I'm worried. They

:43:12.:43:16.

are religious people. Do you say we will keep religion out of question

:43:17.:43:19.

mark who else are you going to keep out question much everybody who has

:43:20.:43:21.

a view about something because you don't like it? The point is we bring

:43:22.:43:27.

into politics everybody we are, and if we are religious we have to be

:43:28.:43:29.

able to bring that into politics, to. I'm so sorry, I wanted to come

:43:30.:43:35.

to you in the last debate because I know you had something to say.

:43:36.:43:40.

Politics and religion are two massively different ideas, one is a

:43:41.:43:43.

leap of faith and of love and passion while the other is logic

:43:44.:43:49.

with passion removed. These are two massively different ideologies. Also

:43:50.:43:52.

when we look at religion in politics you can only look at the recent 70

:43:53.:43:58.

years, George Bush being fuelled by God in the invasion of Iraq, and the

:43:59.:44:02.

Holocaust, Hitler being motivated by his hatred of the dues. They are so

:44:03.:44:08.

separate. When you try to put politics and religion, what

:44:09.:44:12.

interpretation of that religion do you look at and who interprets it?

:44:13.:44:17.

Let's throw that Mary. People are passionate, without religion we

:44:18.:44:23.

would not, in this country, have had some of the great social movements,

:44:24.:44:29.

caring for the sick, in the past, lots of great social movements were

:44:30.:44:32.

driven by people's faith. I couldn't agree more. Right, next question!

:44:33.:44:40.

That is all very good, and I also agree with the idea that you can't

:44:41.:44:46.

keep people out of politics. We live in a democracy and in a democracy

:44:47.:44:52.

everybody over the age of 18 in this country should be able to enter

:44:53.:44:56.

politics if they wish to, that is a fundamental thing about democracy.

:44:57.:45:01.

The prison reform movement, abolition of the Atlantic slave

:45:02.:45:05.

trade... Exactly, we will have people in legislatures and

:45:06.:45:09.

governments who have political views, and that is absolutely fine,

:45:10.:45:12.

but it is what you do with them, and a lot of good has come from people

:45:13.:45:15.

who have done that, absolutely right. But it is when these things

:45:16.:45:19.

come together and there are difficulties that you have to do

:45:20.:45:24.

then look at what your Government, for instance, is about, and the

:45:25.:45:27.

difficulty comes when people try to oppose and do things against the

:45:28.:45:34.

Government which has been elected by a democratic election. On

:45:35.:45:36.

conscientious objection, that is a good thing? Not necessarily, some of

:45:37.:45:45.

the things where the wisdom is that conscientious objection is right,

:45:46.:45:50.

such as reductive -- reproductive rights and abortion, abortion is

:45:51.:45:53.

accepted in this country and if you have a move to change that

:45:54.:45:57.

legislation I don't think there should be conscientious objection.

:45:58.:46:00.

If you are religious and don't agree with it and you are in Government,

:46:01.:46:03.

you have to think yourself about how you deal with that. I think that is

:46:04.:46:09.

the right point that Mary and the Bishop have made, we live in a

:46:10.:46:13.

liberal democracy, individuals will always have their religious or

:46:14.:46:17.

humanist beliefs, or nonreligious beliefs, which will compound them to

:46:18.:46:19.

do certain things one way or another, that is good, you listed

:46:20.:46:24.

social reform that religious people were involved in, you could do the

:46:25.:46:27.

same with people with no religious belief as well. People do things

:46:28.:46:32.

because of their beliefs, that is fine. Groups lobby as well, churches

:46:33.:46:37.

lobby, that is fine as well. The problem comes when people take

:46:38.:46:41.

religion into Government and start legislating on the basis of it and

:46:42.:46:45.

bring religion together with power. You mentioned some of the people now

:46:46.:46:54.

in donald-macro's White House, it is implementing those things will all,

:46:55.:47:02.

you see that all over the world. We have such religious diversity in

:47:03.:47:05.

this country, do we not have to do something to reflect that in the

:47:06.:47:09.

House of Lords, not just having 26 Church of England... It is all about

:47:10.:47:13.

representation. If there needs to be 26 people in the House of Lords

:47:14.:47:17.

representing fatal and nonfatal, there must be a better way to do it.

:47:18.:47:25.

Having non-quez-macro Or saying, we have got 25% of the senses Kristian,

:47:26.:47:31.

25% non-believers, we could quote that if we wanted to. There is no

:47:32.:47:37.

clear distinction between religion and politics, religion is an

:47:38.:47:40.

improvement of the South, politics is an improvement Society, and the

:47:41.:47:43.

improvement of the Selt should help you improve society which helps you

:47:44.:47:47.

prove yourself, so one improves the other, there no clear definition.

:47:48.:47:55.

Very difficult to know... One of the issues here, the faith leaders that

:47:56.:47:59.

politicians listen to have not been democratically elected, and I agree,

:48:00.:48:04.

we don't have a problem that people have religious opinions and bring

:48:05.:48:07.

that into politics, the problem is these faith leaders, for example the

:48:08.:48:14.

Pope, does not represent the opinion of most Catholics who use

:48:15.:48:17.

contraception, so the problem is when established religion comes in

:48:18.:48:21.

and get privileges. It is also a consequence of the change of

:48:22.:48:25.

religious authority where in previous generations they were

:48:26.:48:29.

looked up to buy a lot of adherents of tradition whereas now, given the

:48:30.:48:33.

Internet and the way society has changed, religious authority itself

:48:34.:48:36.

is very different. Let's go to the audience. My Judaism drives forward

:48:37.:48:42.

my beliefs and the way I work in this world. You will not find any

:48:43.:48:47.

key piece of legislation in any country that isn't based on some

:48:48.:48:50.

religious principle. I am not allowed to murder somebody, it is

:48:51.:48:54.

against the law. Where does that come from? The ten Commandments. It

:48:55.:49:04.

predated the ten Commandments! Fine, but it is certainly codified in

:49:05.:49:08.

those instructions given to us as human beings as how to act with each

:49:09.:49:11.

other. Religion drives these things forward, it is what makes people go

:49:12.:49:16.

into politics and not just do things because they want the power, they do

:49:17.:49:18.

it because they believe that they want to change the world. Human

:49:19.:49:24.

beings' behaviour read the Bible, not the other way round. We could

:49:25.:49:32.

get into a long discussion about who wrote the Bible! I'm happy to accept

:49:33.:49:35.

it could be that the Bible was written by human beings, but who

:49:36.:49:40.

inspired that? Who was the thinking behind it, where did it come from?

:49:41.:49:44.

Read the Bible, re-creation is close to Darwin's theory of evolution,

:49:45.:49:48.

there is no separation between scientific laws and religious laws.

:49:49.:49:52.

You can bring them together and so long as you don't act in the

:49:53.:49:56.

extreme... It makes evolutionary sense not to kill somebody in your

:49:57.:50:03.

own tribe. I don't this is ready disagree but it is worth pointing

:50:04.:50:06.

out that politics today and the world we are living in today and the

:50:07.:50:09.

political questions we face are more complicated than those faced by the

:50:10.:50:12.

writers of the Bible, you did not have to deal with the potential

:50:13.:50:16.

destruction of the planet by climate change or the need for complicated

:50:17.:50:21.

states to deal with hyper diversity in religious and other terms or

:50:22.:50:24.

reconcile questions on a much larger global scale that we have to

:50:25.:50:28.

reconcile today like justice, equality and fairness and so on,

:50:29.:50:32.

Andy Powell as human beings hold over our destiny which is greater

:50:33.:50:36.

than in the past. -- and the power human beings hold. So one of the

:50:37.:50:40.

problems that I mentioned earlier is when you start ignoring these and

:50:41.:50:43.

giving inappropriate answers, so those states in the world that are

:50:44.:50:48.

completely religious like Saudi Arabia or Iran, or those states

:50:49.:50:51.

where religion is very much a part of the state but the state is not

:50:52.:50:56.

completely religious, like Pakistan, I think tends to rank low on scales

:50:57.:51:00.

of justice of equality and social fairness in the world and that is

:51:01.:51:04.

partly because they are using religious ways of dealing with big

:51:05.:51:08.

questions which are old-fashioned. If we want to talk about the

:51:09.:51:15.

Commandments, thou shalt not kill, bear full swing this, steel, those

:51:16.:51:20.

are three basic that predate religion, they essentially you don't

:51:21.:51:23.

need to be religious to take those things into your morality, so what

:51:24.:51:26.

is special about people who might have a belief in a supernatural

:51:27.:51:32.

divine being that qualifies them in anyway to be part of a political

:51:33.:51:36.

process? They are talking about eternity, not the political cycle.

:51:37.:51:41.

The question is, is it based in the way our society is and our world is?

:51:42.:51:46.

As a Christian, I would say that is the case because God made it that

:51:47.:51:49.

way, so if we are living according to those, we are living according to

:51:50.:51:53.

the grain of the way God made it, so that is the point. I'm a person of

:51:54.:52:01.

faith, it is all about the next thing, I live in this world, I can

:52:02.:52:05.

see the problems Andrew is talking about about global injustice, if the

:52:06.:52:10.

journey of faith was you find faith and then you die, basically, because

:52:11.:52:14.

it is about rapture and the next world, that is not what it is, it is

:52:15.:52:19.

working out those values, all kinds of different fates uphold justice

:52:20.:52:24.

and equality and so much is about interpretation because I would

:52:25.:52:26.

absolutely not align myself with many of the things that happened at

:52:27.:52:31.

the inauguration so much is about interpretation but at its best...

:52:32.:52:34.

You are just criticising someone else's religion now! This is how

:52:35.:52:42.

divisive religion can be! This is true! Religion and politics are

:52:43.:52:47.

about serving communities, about others and getting rid of your own

:52:48.:52:50.

power to empower other people's power. Melinda, we have not heard

:52:51.:52:54.

from you for a while, your eyes sparkling with a need to come in on

:52:55.:52:58.

this. Should religion have a role in politics? I think religion does have

:52:59.:53:06.

a role in politics because we are motivated, if you do have a faith,

:53:07.:53:12.

often it is that which drives you forward, and whatever you might

:53:13.:53:18.

believe, you were saying about thou shalt not kill, and maybe this is

:53:19.:53:23.

what God has said, it perhaps gives an extra authority to it, I'm not

:53:24.:53:31.

sure about that, but I think our religion plays an important role in

:53:32.:53:36.

the individual conscience which then influences how we act in politics.

:53:37.:53:42.

I'm also a person of faith, and we can have maybe the same religious

:53:43.:53:45.

belief but we might have very different ways of putting that into

:53:46.:53:50.

practice. So I think that religion does influence individuals and

:53:51.:53:57.

individuals influence politics. Theresa May is the daughter of a

:53:58.:54:01.

vicar, maybe she will bring some of that... She gave a good answer to

:54:02.:54:04.

this question Roger was asked, even though I don't agree with a lot of

:54:05.:54:07.

her policies like the expansion of state schools, -- of faith schools,

:54:08.:54:13.

when she was asked, she said, I do have religious beliefs but in that

:54:14.:54:16.

country we tend to keep these things to ourselves, and that was a good

:54:17.:54:21.

answer! Merhi, I would as do the question but it is all stacked

:54:22.:54:25.

against women here! What I would like to say, we have talked about

:54:26.:54:30.

people with faith and bringing fates to politics, and of course as you

:54:31.:54:34.

said in your introduction, 42% of people in this country don't have a

:54:35.:54:38.

religious faith and I think it is important to get through this idea

:54:39.:54:42.

that you have morality dependent on religion. It isn't. Most people,

:54:43.:54:47.

apart from maybe some of the people we are talking about in prison in

:54:48.:54:50.

the earlier debate, the vast majority of people across the world

:54:51.:54:56.

have morals, morality, have a basis for their lives and how they live

:54:57.:55:00.

them which is what we all agree as a moral basis and there is a consensus

:55:01.:55:04.

about what that is. It doesn't actually depend on a religious

:55:05.:55:10.

faith. Look at somewhere like Pakistan with the blasphemy law and

:55:11.:55:17.

the religious laws there. Massively, massively anti-human rights law and

:55:18.:55:23.

it needs to be repealed, absolutely. Going back to the marches yesterday,

:55:24.:55:27.

a lot of the concerns that a lot of women had, especially in America, is

:55:28.:55:32.

this idea that Trump is surrounded by these men who basically don't

:55:33.:55:35.

believe in abortion, don't believe in the right to the woman to have

:55:36.:55:40.

control over her body and her reproductive choices... A lot of

:55:41.:55:44.

Catholics watching would take the same stance, driven by their stance,

:55:45.:55:48.

and they have every right to believe it. Everybody has a right to

:55:49.:55:51.

practice their religion as they see fit, I have no concerns about that.

:55:52.:55:55.

Many people I speak to have no concerns about that either, but what

:55:56.:55:59.

is concerning is when you have people in power dictating policy

:56:00.:56:03.

which will then impact not just men but women in America, this is one of

:56:04.:56:07.

the reasons why so many of us wanted to stand in solidarity with women

:56:08.:56:12.

who are now seeing all the choices and changes made under Obama, all

:56:13.:56:15.

the improvements, now being taken back brick by brick. Obama had a

:56:16.:56:22.

very interesting quote... I don't think we have got time for an

:56:23.:56:27.

interesting quote! We are at the end! But thank you all very much

:56:28.:56:30.

indeed for your participation, thank you!

:56:31.:56:31.

As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.

:56:32.:56:34.

Next week we're in Glasgow, so do join us then.

:56:35.:56:36.

But for now, it's goodbye from Bradford and have a great Sunday.

:56:37.:56:40.

We will see you very soon. Thanks once again to our excellent audience

:56:41.:56:44.

here. APPLAUSE.

:56:45.:57:02.

To break someone physically... Agh! ..is not a problem.

:57:03.:57:07.

Nicky Campbell presents the Big Questions live from Bradford's Appleton Academy and asks:

Is the system still stacked against women?

Does prison work?

And, should religion have any role in politics?