Episode 4 The Big Questions


Episode 4

Nicky Campbell presents the Big Questions live from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow. The guests and audience debate whether Scotland is still owed a say over Brexit.


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Transcript


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Triggering Brexit - who should get a say?

:00:00.:00:07.

Money for nothing - on the state and slavery,

:00:08.:00:09.

Today we're live from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow.

:00:10.:00:31.

Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

:00:32.:00:36.

This week, the Supreme Court announced its long-awaited decision

:00:37.:00:43.

over Brexit - the UK Parliament must be allowed a vote to trigger Article

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50 before formal negotiations can begin with the European Union.

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But while giving a voice to MPs in Westminster,

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the court quashed legal hopes of a similar vote in

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the Scottish Parliament or the Northern Irish

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Now, cast your mind back to 2014 and you may recall that membership

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of the European Union was an interesting factor

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It emerged that should Scotland leave the UK,

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it would have to reapply for membership of the EU

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In the event, 55% voted to remain in the UK and 45%

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And this year, 62% in Scotland voted to stay in the EU and 38% to leave.

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Given this unexpected change of circumstances, morally,

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is Scotland still owed a say over Brexit?

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It's a very interesting part of this whole debate. These are interesting

:01:37.:01:45.

times in which we live. Sam, is this about the UK now or is it about

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Scotland? I think it's absolutely about the UK and this decision has

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to be made plaintively as part of the United Kingdom. Scotland chose

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to remain part of the United Kingdom and to have international affairs,

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memberships of foreign organisations made collectively as the UK, so

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Scotland should have a say. But it's 59 MPs in Westminster should be the

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ones making that decision. The possibility of another referendum on

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Europe, and put your hands up if you want to say anything, what sort of

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assay should Scotland have? There will be debate on whether Article 50

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should be triggered, great repeal Bill deciding whether to retain bits

:02:29.:02:35.

of EU law into UK law and the final deal that Theresa May manages to

:02:36.:02:39.

negotiate in Brussels. So there will be a say at all stages in the

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parliamentary process. Scottish citizens have a right to elect those

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MPs. The decision was made to stay in the United Kingdom and the

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decision was made to leave the European Union and that's a double

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bolt, and that means it's all about the UK? That's right. OK, people of

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Scotland, good morning full stop put your hands up, what do you want to

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say about this? Lady in the red. Unfortunately I was off work for

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five months after an operation so I got to see all the news bits that

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came across during the Brexit debate. The fact is a lot of

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communities in England and some in Scotland have been left behind since

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97, since Margaret Thatcher in the 80s, and people have watched

:03:27.:03:28.

children remain unemployed for a long time, grandchildren starting to

:03:29.:03:32.

remain unemployed and are frightened, and I think that gave

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impetus to the Brexit Fred. You want change? I do. The political parties

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have left these communities behind, they haven't helped them, and it's

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the same in America. What's the answer? If I had that I'd be Prime

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Minister. But it's the same in America, the bottom line, a lot of

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the communities that voted for Donald Trump are still communities

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where they have lost their main industry and that has never been

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helped. These people have also been left behind and their reaction is to

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vote for someone like Donald Trump. So taking it home, is the answer

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another independence referendum? The lady, there. Not at all, because we

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voted to stay part of the union and leave the EU and that's exactly what

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the Democrats should be listening to, that's what we voted for. At

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Hang on, you've got the Supreme Court which was under a lot of

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pressure from parts of the popular press, they came to that considered

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and meticulously judged opinion, they looked at everything stop blue

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which the sill Convention, all which we

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understood to be a pretty tungsten, muscular piece of machinery that

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meant Westminster could not dabble in Scottish Parliament affairs

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really, actually it means pretty well nothing. Like much of the

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entrenchment of Scottish parliament it could be abolished overnight

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right now if Westminster felt like it. So ultimately it is about the UK

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Parliament? We've learned something from that knock-back, the weakness

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of the mechanism we were told powerful. The next thing is, do the

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people who work the Nissan, are they part of the UK? Because they've got

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an opt out. What about the people of the City of London? We understand

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they are getting a little opt out organised. If there is not a deal

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done for Ireland the peace process will falter. Gibraltar probably

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needs an opt out. There are deals being done all over the place but

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the one place not being given a look in is the one place that voted

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sizeable to stay in the EU, Scotland. Membership of the European

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Union has always been that the UK is the member state, not Scotland. Why

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can everybody else have an opt out? It's not an opt out. They are being

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consulted and the government will take into account the interests. The

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City of London will remain in Europe. Theresa May has promised to

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make a deal that tries to deal with all the different interests as part

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of the United Kingdom. Except ours. No single interest can get

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everything they want. I think you are being quite unfair. One of

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Theresa May's first actions when she became Prime Minister was to come to

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Scotland to meet Nicola Sturgeon. They are meeting tomorrow as well.

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David Mundell net with my grassland Derek McInnes, there is an ongoing

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dialogue, Scotland is very much part of negotiations. But David Cameron

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during the independence campaign, he said, look, if you vote for

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independence, when it comes to joining the euro, you're going to

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have to go to the back of the queue, so people voted under a false

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pretence. No, I don't think so. And that remains the case today. We've

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had two clear, fair, decisive and legal referendums. On the first one

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the people of Scotland voted to remain in the union. As part of that

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United Kingdom they decided to leave. Don't worry John, I've got my

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eye on you and I know you are going to burst out of the traps any

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second, I can hardly hold you back. Guy Standing, you wanted to come in?

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The first thing is, as somebody who was profoundly against the folly of

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the referendum, it is one of the worst mistakes are British

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government has ever made. The EU referendum? The referendum on Brexit

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was a folly. We have to remember that only 67% of the Scottish

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electorate actually voted at all, lower than the rest of the United

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Kingdom. And in a sense, logically, if you had a separate vote in

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Scotland from the vote that should be taking place in the house of

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parliament, in the Commons, you would be giving the Scots a double

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vote. Because Scottish MPs, most of whom are SNP, will have a vote on

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Article 50 and the rest of it in the House of Commons. And I profoundly

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hope that they will all stand up and vote against going for Article 50.

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We'll see what will happen. But I do think this double vote issue is

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something that should be taken into account. I think the big problem is

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that the UK constitution isn't fit for purpose for the political

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reality that exists now. Even unionists in Scotland believe

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Scotland should have a say in the Brexit vote. What does a say mean?

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It's about power. You referred to both David Cameron and Theresa May.

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First visit she made as Prime Minister was to come and tell Nicola

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Sturgeon and Scotland that we were equal partners. The UK judges

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unanimously batted the Scottish issue back to the politicians

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because they know they can't deal with it. What should have happened

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in Britain is that we should be like Australia where an Australian

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referendum, each state, all states have to vote in a referendum, if one

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state objects or votes no, for instance, it doesn't go through.

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There is no English Parliament, that's the problem. I know, that's

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why I'm saying the constitution is not fit for purpose. But there is a

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political reality here, and the politicians know that, and we are

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stuck in a real morass at the moment. And probably the solution is

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Theresa May should possibly go to the country and say, let's have

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indie rest 2, because Scotland is obviously not happy that

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# IndyRef America to. David, I don't think you are up for IndyRef two,

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but who is up for that, here? Do you think it would go through?

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Potentially would on the basis that the first IndyRef, we started with

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10% and got up to 45%. Said the wind is in your sales. Has Brexit helped,

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and the Supreme Court judgment of Scotland being excluded?

:10:36.:10:40.

Potentially. All the Unionist parties were sitting there saying,

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you want to be part of the EU, vote to stay, and now we are not part of

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the EU. We were given the vote on false pretences. Lets get a word

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from you, and then John Curtice. I think the IndyRef idea is a good

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one, there was so much misleading information leading up to the Brexit

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campaign, Scottish people should have the right to make an informed

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judgment. John Curtis, couple of things for you before we get the

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current state of Play and opinion on independence as to whether this has

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given further impetus to Indyref two and the march towards an independent

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Scotland. It just struck me that Simon said the UK constitution is

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not fit for purpose. European, the EU rules and regulations, do they

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take account of a nation which is part of the member state having a

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say in its own future after that nation secedes from the European

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Union? The answer is that Article 50 says that a notification for Article

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50 has to be in accordance with the country's constitutional procedures.

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The European Union in effect will suspect the procedures of the member

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state if it wishes to leave. The fact that the European Union is, on

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occasion, willing to listen to some state governments, as illustrated in

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the row about the trade agreement with Canada when the while in

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Parliament was at least in theory in position to stop that deal.

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Basically the European Union says it's up to the member states to

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decide for itself. Not the substate? It is up to them to decide how it is

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going to leave and what are the rules under which it decides. If it

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is a powerful substate it can decide. The tiny Faroe Islands opted

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out of the EU when Denmark joined in 1973 and that's because they had a

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powerful enough government, it could sign international treaties. Spain

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will have no truck with substate is for obvious reasons. But it has been

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done, there are lots of exceptions. To come back to your big question

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which is about the possibility of a second independence referendum. The

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truth is that neither side in this debate is in a comfortable position.

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The first thing one needs to understand, yet it is true that 55%

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of people in Scotland voted in favour of staying inside the UK, but

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you have to understand that only 55% voted to stay. In effect that

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referendum failed to solve or to settle the issue of whether or not

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Scotland should remain in the UK. The only consequence of that

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referendum was to make Scotland a much more problematic member of the

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UK than it previously had been, so that is the difficulty on the

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Unionist side. And the fact we leaving the European Union is a bit

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of an embarrassment given the arguments were used in the campaign.

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The trouble on the nationalist side, trying to link a second independence

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referendum and a yes vote to Brexit is that what we now know is that one

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in three of those people who voted to leave the United Kingdom, yes to

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independence, actually voted to leave the European Union. And the

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nationalist movement in Scotland is not united on the issue of Brexit.

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What we have discovered is that there are some people who are

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sufficiently upset about the UK leaving the European Union that they

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would now back in independent Scotland, but they have been matched

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by an equal number of people who are now sufficiently happy about the

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prospect of the UK leaving the EU that they would now stick with the

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UK rather than a Scotland which would wish to remain in the EU. The

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net effect is that we are still at a 55-45 vote. Some have changed their

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views, but both sides, the unionist and nationalist communities, are

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divided as a result of Brexit. Interesting. What a brain!

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APPLAUSE A lot of people watching, everyone

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in the UK, they would not have appreciated that particular... Not a

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fact you have a brain! That particular statistic, really

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interesting. David, leader of Ukip in Scotland, this is... This

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programme is not about so much the political and legal, this is about

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the moral, the rights and wrongs. Scotland is a nation, Scotland has

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been cast adrift by English nationalism and they are no longer

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going to be part of the EU. Scotland has to have a concrete palpable say

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in its own future. I agree with a lot of what Professor John Curtice

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said. You will not win a referendum on it. More importantly, the EU,

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when Nicola Sturgeon had her summit, we are quite good chums, I had a

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chat with him, he said, we cannot remain in the EU, Scotland entered

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the EU as part of the UK, it must leave as part of the UK and then

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reapply. It will have to reapply after Turkey and goodness knows who.

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We have a 7 billion deficit thanks to the SNP. Wait, what do you mean?

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Listen, what do you mean by reapply after Turkey? There are certain

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human rights standards Turkey will not qualify for four decades. If at

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all. Scotland will. We will have to reapply. We do not have...

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APPLAUSE There is no central bank. We will

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have to accept the euro which is a catastrophe. Some countries will

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crash out in the next year or so. The euro is very unstable. We would

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have to accept the euro. We would have to have an international border

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50 miles from Edinburgh. Not a good idea. We do four times as much

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business with the rest of the UK than we do with the EU. Presidential

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is said we have no chance, we have to leave, we decided in the

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referendum on Scottish independence to remain British. We subsequently

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decided to, in a different way, with the EU, but it was 60-40. That is a

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good proportion of the Scottish population who do not want to be in

:17:27.:17:31.

the EU. It is not a big victory, as Professor John Curtice said. This

:17:32.:17:37.

notion of Scotland being a part of the single market and the rest of

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the UK not being, that is just fanciful. That is unworkable. It is

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not. It works in lots of different countries to have different levels

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of integration with Europe. All of the Nordic countries have everything

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from Finland in the Euro and in Europe to Iceland out of both of

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them and they have had one travel area for 40 years before Schengen

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was devised. If you have a will politically, you can find it. It is

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not present in the UK. The thing to say about what has been analysed by

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John and what David picked up on, it is probably right Europe is not the

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burning issue that will bring them to want another independence

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referendum, but what is possibly is that if we are ignored on as big an

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issue about trade and relations with Europe and everything that comes

:18:32.:18:34.

with that, completely ignored to date in the negotiations, what hope

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have we to be heard on anything else? Professor? The moral issues, I

:18:40.:18:48.

appreciate the politics is compelling. It is a moral issue, are

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we being heard? When we talk about democracy, little scientists used

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the term deliberative democracy, democracy is the way in which we

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settle things by discussion. That is fundamental to what a democracy is

:19:10.:19:13.

about. The second thing, Liberal Democrat C, we respect the rights of

:19:14.:19:20.

minorities -- liberal democracy. Both of those have been absent in

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most of the Brexit debate. People treat it as a settled issue. I am

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horrified by the Bill currently in Parliament which does not say it

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will be subject to discussion, it does not say Parliament will discuss

:19:35.:19:38.

the issues, it says all power will be invested in the Prime Minister.

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That is all it says. I think we have to worry here that not just that

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Scotland is not being consulted, the population is not being engaged in

:19:52.:19:55.

the process. What a feather John Curtis was describing is a nation

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divided -- Professor John Curtice. We can probably agree. Let us have a

:20:02.:20:07.

process of discussion and resolution that protects the minorities. You

:20:08.:20:14.

are right that we need discussion and consultation. The issue is about

:20:15.:20:19.

whether there is a veto. On specifically Article 50, there will

:20:20.:20:23.

be days of debate in Parliament, MPs will have their chance to have a

:20:24.:20:27.

say. The bill specifically is about simply giving ministers the power to

:20:28.:20:31.

trigger Article 50, not about the future relation with the EU, it is a

:20:32.:20:37.

very specific thing. It is important not to exaggerate. Do you think

:20:38.:20:42.

anyone will be consulted on any other aspect on this? Why don't you

:20:43.:20:47.

accept the democratic will of the majority? We voted as Great Britain.

:20:48.:20:55.

Did the referendum say, we want to be in or out of the single market?

:20:56.:21:02.

The president made it very clear. That is one Guy. One more president

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reference and you are out. He is the most influential figure in the

:21:09.:21:14.

European Union. How long is his post? He is gone now! Simon, there

:21:15.:21:25.

will be a white paper, what is the problem with that? How many days

:21:26.:21:31.

will they spend discussing it? Three to five days. The maestro treaty was

:21:32.:21:36.

discussed for 42 days in the House of Commons. The Government is trying

:21:37.:21:42.

to ram this through, a battle has been won here by the forces of the

:21:43.:21:46.

right who have always hated Europe. They are backed up by the rabidly

:21:47.:21:53.

right wing anti EU predominantly UK press and 37% of our restricted

:21:54.:22:02.

franchise voted for an advisory referendum in a parliamentary

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democracy and all of these facets do not fix together to provide a

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solution people will accept and be happy... I am a supporter of Labour

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and a member and Jeremy Corbyn is wrong about this, there should be a

:22:18.:22:22.

free vote and I would urge all Labour MPs to vote with their

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conscience. Thank you. Let us not confuse the Bill and the white

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paper. I wonder what Mr Schulz thinks about this next debate? I

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know he watches every week! If you have something

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to say about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

:22:44.:22:45.

and follow the link to where you can We're also debating live this

:22:46.:22:48.

morning from Hutchesons' Should the state give

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everyone a basic income? And should today's generation

:22:53.:22:55.

make amends for slavery? So, get tweeting or emailing

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on those topics now, or send us any other ideas

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or thoughts you may 87 years ago, the great economist,

:23:00.:23:01.

John Maynard Keynes, wrote a book called The Economic Possibilities

:23:02.:23:12.

for our Grandchildren. One of his startling predictions

:23:13.:23:20.

was that in the future - that's now - rising living standards

:23:21.:23:24.

would mean we could all choose to be working much less,

:23:25.:23:30.

perhaps just 15 hours a week, We all know what happened instead -

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some people are working much longer hours, others have no work at all,

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and globalisation is taking advantage of the cheapest places

:23:38.:23:40.

in the world to produce everything. Now other economists are suggesting

:23:41.:23:45.

that if everyone was given a basic income by the state,

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the workload and the profits from capitalism could be

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shared out more evenly. Well, Finland is trying this out,

:23:53.:23:54.

and here in Glasgow, a local councillor wants this city

:23:55.:24:01.

to give it a whirl too. Should the state give

:24:02.:24:04.

everyone a basic income? Basic income, how would this work?

:24:05.:24:19.

Everybody would get this, right? The idea is every individual, man, woman

:24:20.:24:26.

and child, a lesser amount, should receive each month a basic amount

:24:27.:24:30.

and that is to be decided by Parliament, as a right.

:24:31.:24:37.

Unconditional in behavioural terms. The reasons for supporting a basic

:24:38.:24:41.

income are threefold, fundamentally. Can I just stop you? Why should

:24:42.:24:45.

everyone get it question what footballers, barristers... Let me

:24:46.:24:51.

explain in a second when I have said the philosophical and moral

:24:52.:24:54.

justification. The first is, the wealth and income of all of us in

:24:55.:25:00.

society is far more to do with the contributions of previous

:25:01.:25:03.

generations. We have a collective wealth much more than anything we do

:25:04.:25:07.

ourselves. If you allow private inheritance, we should have a

:25:08.:25:13.

return, a social dividend, to the collective wealth of society. It is

:25:14.:25:17.

a right. That is an idea associated with Thomas Paine, socialists and so

:25:18.:25:25.

on, going back a long way. There is a strong philosophical tradition.

:25:26.:25:29.

The second reason, the moral reason, is that if people had a basic

:25:30.:25:32.

income, they would have a greater sense of freedom, what we call

:25:33.:25:38.

Republican freedom, in the sense that it would mean they have a

:25:39.:25:41.

greater ability to say no to arbitrate domination by figures,

:25:42.:25:46.

bureaucrats, fathers, husbands and others. And a greater ability to say

:25:47.:25:52.

yes if they wanted to do something paying a low-wage but they would

:25:53.:25:56.

like to do it but they cannot afford it. That sense of freedom is

:25:57.:26:02.

something that has been lost in the developments you have briefly

:26:03.:26:08.

described. Alec income in equalities and securities have multiplied --

:26:09.:26:13.

our income. A healthier society? We are not in a healthy society if a

:26:14.:26:18.

large majority of feeling quality insecure and it leads to the third

:26:19.:26:24.

justification. We need a good society in which everybody has basic

:26:25.:26:29.

security. The psychologists, the economists, they have shown that if

:26:30.:26:34.

people have basic security in a mental sense, psychological sense,

:26:35.:26:38.

they have better mental health, better mental bandwidth in other

:26:39.:26:43.

words, higher short-term IQ, they are able to make decisions more

:26:44.:26:48.

rationally and they are able to feel less stressed. That is a real need

:26:49.:26:56.

in a modern open society. The fourth thing which is not so moral but it

:26:57.:27:02.

is indicative of the crisis is that the income distribution system of

:27:03.:27:07.

the 20th century has broken down irretrievably. Our wages, our real

:27:08.:27:12.

wages, in Europe, in the US, Germany, France, the UK, they have

:27:13.:27:17.

been stagnant for 30 years. They have become more volatile. People

:27:18.:27:20.

are facing more insecurity. If we continue, we will see populists of

:27:21.:27:27.

the far right in particular playing on the fears and insecurities of a

:27:28.:27:30.

growing number of people and that means that because basic income has

:27:31.:27:38.

become more popular, it is not only robots, but the fear of far right...

:27:39.:27:44.

Automation, I want to come to that in a second. If you are driving a

:27:45.:27:50.

big company, by taxing them more, there might be more in automation so

:27:51.:27:53.

it might be counter-productive. Who likes this? I meant, I don't like

:27:54.:28:04.

it. OK, let me rephrase that? Who doesn't like it?

:28:05.:28:06.

LAUGHTER Why not? I think it is very much a

:28:07.:28:14.

socialist idea and with a lot of socialist ideas, they are not

:28:15.:28:22.

practical. If socialists understood economics, they would not be

:28:23.:28:26.

socialists. It is pretty much that simple. It is not a practical thing

:28:27.:28:38.

to do. Yeah? Mass inequality we have in society, that is the situation we

:28:39.:28:46.

have got, we have got individuals with money, it is not being

:28:47.:28:53.

distributed. Stress, as one of our guests alluded to, it is one of the

:28:54.:28:56.

biggest things. That stress people are in, it is crippling our society.

:28:57.:29:03.

Unhappy stressful society. Taking it back to the guy in the grey T-shirt.

:29:04.:29:08.

I do not think anyone has exactly what the issue was, it is not the

:29:09.:29:13.

sort of universal basic income, as I said, I think it is a nice idea and

:29:14.:29:17.

it would be great if everyone could do that, everyone would love it if

:29:18.:29:20.

it was feasible for everyone to have a set amount of income where they do

:29:21.:29:26.

not have to worry about rent, food bills, but I do not think it is

:29:27.:29:30.

something that is necessarily feasible and we have to look

:29:31.:29:33.

somewhere else for another idea. Do you like this idea?

:29:34.:29:37.

I do. I think most of us will accept the current welfare system is a

:29:38.:29:48.

bureaucratic nightmare. But when we're talking about relieving stress

:29:49.:29:53.

and anxiety, I have experienced some of that in Glasgow. I'm part of an

:29:54.:30:03.

organisation which does a tea run every Thursday night in Glasgow.

:30:04.:30:09.

Speaking to the folk who come along, I hear the stories of some of the

:30:10.:30:12.

sanctions that they have had. There are no stories that I have heard

:30:13.:30:21.

that did not appear in I, Daniel Blake. If I can take the point about

:30:22.:30:26.

sanctions, you want to try this in Glasgow. Let's follow the point so

:30:27.:30:29.

articulately expressed by that lady, there. You have to also think about

:30:30.:30:37.

individuals basic needs. If you are thinking about the extra needs that

:30:38.:30:39.

might pertain in a certain household you will still have to have an

:30:40.:30:43.

assessment, won't you? There has to be in and -- there must be an

:30:44.:30:51.

acknowledgement that some people live more expensive lives. If there

:30:52.:30:54.

was a disability you would have to make an assessment. You back into

:30:55.:31:00.

the bureaucratic morass. Nothing approaching what we

:31:01.:31:07.

. Nothing approaching what we have now. I am a socialist. One of the

:31:08.:31:14.

books I cherish is a book signed by Nye Bevan, it sits in my office. And

:31:15.:31:22.

he oversaw rapid expansion of the welfare system, the birth of the

:31:23.:31:29.

NHS, the start of a mass house-building programme. And he did

:31:30.:31:36.

it motivated by that thought that this, the fear people particularly

:31:37.:31:41.

experienced during the great depression, what coloured the

:31:42.:31:44.

thinking of many of the people of his generation. I think it is one of

:31:45.:31:49.

the great tragedies of our time, the welfare system, rather than removing

:31:50.:31:56.

fear has become the cause of it. Let me ask you... It is pernicious but

:31:57.:32:03.

it is more than that, it is about rights, it is about Masters and

:32:04.:32:06.

servants. Too often when people approach the welfare system for

:32:07.:32:11.

support they feel like they are approaching a master. Let me ask you

:32:12.:32:16.

this, the current benefits bill is about 217 billions pound. The

:32:17.:32:19.

estimated cost of this would be ?304 billion. That's a lot of difference,

:32:20.:32:31.

isn't it? ?90 billion difference. Who calculated that? Those are

:32:32.:32:36.

estimated costs I was looking at earlier. How would you pay for that?

:32:37.:32:40.

You save money on the prison system and you look at the tax system. What

:32:41.:32:44.

would you do about the tax system? If you want to tackle inequality you

:32:45.:32:49.

have to do something about assets tax being distributed. Big

:32:50.:32:55.

companies? One of the discussions in Scotland is around land taxes and I

:32:56.:32:58.

think that is a key part of this. One of the key drivers of inequality

:32:59.:33:02.

in my lifetime has been the concentration of asset wealth in

:33:03.:33:05.

fewer and fewer hands and that needs to be tackled as well. Does this

:33:06.:33:13.

work? The question of how you pay for it is quite critical for basic

:33:14.:33:19.

income. The moral judgments are extremely strong, the practical

:33:20.:33:21.

arguments are strong, we have seen it work with Child benefit. Paying

:33:22.:33:26.

for it is the issue. We cannot take this to a good and ?17 billion or

:33:27.:33:31.

however we calculated move that into basic income, because that covers

:33:32.:33:35.

older people and and sickness and a large number of other things. All

:33:36.:33:41.

the schemes that I've seen make assumptions about taking money away

:33:42.:33:46.

from people who got benefits. Nearly all of those schemes leave poor

:33:47.:33:51.

people know better off, some of them, including the citizen incomes

:33:52.:33:54.

trust scheme, actually make poorer people worse off. The second problem

:33:55.:33:59.

related to this is the sheer size of what's needed. If you've got, let's

:34:00.:34:04.

save the Scottish Greens proposal suggests we'll need ?140 billion in

:34:05.:34:10.

tax. If you've got ?140 billion to spend on a fairer tax system which I

:34:11.:34:14.

wouldn't necessarily be averse to, how do you spend it? Would you want

:34:15.:34:18.

to spend it on this when we're not poor people better off, and not

:34:19.:34:24.

rather put it into health or education or public sector? What

:34:25.:34:31.

about investment... In a second. What about higher tax for the big

:34:32.:34:38.

companies and the dangers some would argue of leading it abroad and jobs

:34:39.:34:44.

in this country dwindling? I'm not sure that that's a moral argument,

:34:45.:34:48.

that's about the practicalities of how much money raised by tax. Let's

:34:49.:34:55.

be clear, the way in which basic income works, what makes it fair is

:34:56.:34:58.

that everybody is paying tax as well. The difficulty you've got, I'm

:34:59.:35:04.

afraid, is that in some cases the poorest people and people on the

:35:05.:35:09.

lowest incomes to pay tax in a way that would not be sustainable. If

:35:10.:35:13.

those problems could be resolved, I would be much more supportive. I

:35:14.:35:18.

think it's important to realise that this is a nonsense. What, this

:35:19.:35:27.

programme? What are you saying? It is a nonsense saying you have two

:35:28.:35:32.

lower benefits for other groups. Why? This can be conceived as a

:35:33.:35:35.

scheme that you build up by building a capital fund and realising that at

:35:36.:35:42.

the current state, not only is our welfare system a total mess that

:35:43.:35:45.

acts as a disincentive for people to take low-wage jobs, but, for

:35:46.:35:50.

example, suddenly we are able to afford to pay out ?375 billion in

:35:51.:35:58.

quantitative easing to give to the banks. How can you say we can't

:35:59.:36:03.

afford it when we are doing that sort of thing? In this country we

:36:04.:36:08.

have cut corporation tax. It used to be 52%, then it was cut to 28%. In

:36:09.:36:15.

other words they only pay 28%. Now it has been lowered to 20%. The

:36:16.:36:22.

government says it is lowering it to 17%. We may become a tax haven.

:36:23.:36:29.

Exactly. Don't tell me we can't afford a basic income when we giving

:36:30.:36:35.

this a way in subsidies. David? So long as we are in the European Union

:36:36.:36:38.

the idea of it is completely ridiculous because you'd have

:36:39.:36:43.

everybody turning up on our door stop, you know that and I know that.

:36:44.:36:49.

No, no, no. We coming out of the European Union anyway. You can't do

:36:50.:36:55.

this, where do you get the money from? It's just simply not

:36:56.:36:58.

practical, it is airy fairy nonsense. I have shown in my book

:36:59.:37:11.

that you can afford it. For example we have a care crisis, right? I'm

:37:12.:37:24.

all for reform. Wait a minute everyone! Everyone is talking across

:37:25.:37:30.

each other and people at home can't hear what is going on, you can't

:37:31.:37:32.

hear each other and I can't hear myself think and if it carries on

:37:33.:37:39.

I'm leaving. Leslie. The caring thing, at the moment there are lots

:37:40.:37:42.

of people that would like to do caring jobs but they can't afford to

:37:43.:37:45.

do that because it's such low wages, they then get into the benefits

:37:46.:37:50.

trap. There are all sorts of reasons. Now the way we have got

:37:51.:37:54.

care friend at the moment, we can't afford to be putting out the full

:37:55.:37:58.

paid nurses, doctors and so on that could deal with people. Can I ask

:37:59.:38:04.

you something? This is a pump primer for people to have the freedom to do

:38:05.:38:07.

caring things and that's what we need. Can I ask you something? In an

:38:08.:38:14.

independent Scotland, presumably you would like to have a system like

:38:15.:38:20.

this, universal basic income, in an independent Scotland within the

:38:21.:38:22.

European Union you would also buy into freedom of movement, so would

:38:23.:38:28.

everybody who came to this country from Bulgaria, Estonia, wherever,

:38:29.:38:31.

come to Scotland, would they be entitled to this basic income, yes

:38:32.:38:36.

or no? Here's the strange thing, if Glasgow gets the go-ahead it's going

:38:37.:38:39.

to have a pilot. Fife is having a pilot. Who else question mark

:38:40.:38:43.

Barcelona, Amsterdam, Finland. All those countries are in the EU. So

:38:44.:38:51.

freedom of movement would be entitled to the universal basic

:38:52.:38:54.

income? At the moment that is the case because you have a means tested

:38:55.:38:59.

system. If you had a basic income system, whatever rules you or we

:39:00.:39:02.

might like to apply, you could apply a simple rule by saying only when

:39:03.:39:07.

people have been in the country for several years with they qualify for

:39:08.:39:12.

the basic income, and treat the needs of migrants separately. Is

:39:13.:39:15.

that a good system? Only when they have been in the country in for a

:39:16.:39:22.

few years. I'm rather liberal when it comes to matters of immigration.

:39:23.:39:30.

So I think that is something, I don't deny that is a difficult

:39:31.:39:34.

thing, but why I support a pilot in Glasgow is because we need to figure

:39:35.:39:38.

out how to work out the practicalities. You have heard from

:39:39.:39:44.

some people speaking against it that this is not practical, it's pie in

:39:45.:39:47.

the sky, people were saying that about the NHS and it has worked out

:39:48.:39:50.

rather well, I think, for all its flaws. What this is about, a

:39:51.:39:58.

comprehensive system, for me it's not about the rise of the robots,

:39:59.:40:02.

it's about the relationship between the individual and the state. And

:40:03.:40:06.

changing that relationship from the state being the master to setting

:40:07.:40:13.

people free. I'm fed up with the political right owning the word

:40:14.:40:17.

freedom, I want the political left and socialism to be about freedom

:40:18.:40:19.

and I think this can deliver freedom. If I can make one more

:40:20.:40:25.

point. We've only got 30 seconds left. The care system is in crisis

:40:26.:40:30.

and I'm glad this has come up, 60,000 carers in this city and they

:40:31.:40:35.

are expected to volunteer, they are forced into it effectively because

:40:36.:40:38.

they love people. And they are told that if they manage to care for 35

:40:39.:40:42.

hours a week they would be lucky enough to get 60 odd quid. That's

:40:43.:40:50.

not taxable, morally, -- that's not acceptable morally in any shape or

:40:51.:40:54.

form. I know you are something of a fan of Donald Trump, would you like

:40:55.:40:59.

to see us take a leaf out of his book and turn our backs on

:41:00.:41:05.

globalisation, Scotland first? I think Donald Trump is irrelevant to

:41:06.:41:11.

this. Globalisation, Donald Trump, isolation. The social system needs

:41:12.:41:16.

to reform, it's got to be sorted out, it's a mess, especially in

:41:17.:41:20.

Scotland, the SNP government made a dog 's dinner of it. We need to sort

:41:21.:41:24.

it out, nobody disagrees. What we want to see is people at the bottom

:41:25.:41:29.

end of the taxation system taken out, that's what we've been

:41:30.:41:33.

campaigning for. People on low incomes should be taken out of the

:41:34.:41:36.

taxation system altogether, that makes sense, that's logical. You

:41:37.:41:43.

still have a poverty trap problem. You don't deny that the unlimited

:41:44.:41:49.

number of people coming to the UK, you'd have queues at the border of

:41:50.:41:55.

people trying to get in. We are going to have to leave it there but

:41:56.:41:58.

we have a very interesting debate forthcoming. For now thank you very

:41:59.:42:05.

much indeed. Thank you for coming in and expressing so clearly what that

:42:06.:42:09.

was all about, very intriguing. Strong arguments on both sides.

:42:10.:42:12.

You can join in all this morning's debates by logging

:42:13.:42:15.

on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and following the link

:42:16.:42:16.

Or you can tweet using the hashtag #bbctbq.

:42:17.:42:19.

Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too.

:42:20.:42:22.

Should today's generation make amends for slavery?

:42:23.:42:24.

And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience

:42:25.:42:26.

at a future show, you can email audiencetbq@mentorn.tv.

:42:27.:42:28.

We're in Southampton next week, Leicester on February 12th

:42:29.:42:30.

235 years ago, 133 African slaves bound for Jamaica were deliberately

:42:31.:42:46.

drowned in the Caribbean by British sailors aboard the slave ship, Zong.

:42:47.:42:55.

They were chained together at the ankles, weighed down

:42:56.:42:58.

with metal balls and cast into the deep.

:42:59.:43:00.

The ship's owners could then claim compensation

:43:01.:43:02.

A few weeks ago, the Jamaican government chose the Zong massacre

:43:03.:43:11.

to represent the high human cost of slavery and to reassert its claim

:43:12.:43:15.

that the UK should formally apologise and make financial

:43:16.:43:18.

reparations for running a slave colony on the island for 200 years.

:43:19.:43:22.

Glasgow, where we are today, was just one of the ports to profit

:43:23.:43:25.

London, Bristol and Liverpool did too.

:43:26.:43:30.

Should today's generation make amends for slavery?

:43:31.:43:37.

And if so, how? Sandra, when we walk through the streets of Glasgow and

:43:38.:43:44.

many of the other great maritime cities of the United Kingdom, what

:43:45.:43:50.

kind of misery is etched in the Stones?

:43:51.:43:53.

If you look in the centre of Glasgow, you can see the proceeds of

:43:54.:44:03.

transatlantic slavery and how that benefited the economic growth of

:44:04.:44:07.

this city. It is interestingly mentioned London, Liverpool and

:44:08.:44:12.

Bristol. Both London and Liverpool have formally apologised for their

:44:13.:44:18.

contributions to the transatlantic slavery and placement of Africans.

:44:19.:44:24.

Can you make judgments on the past? Slavery is endorsed in the holy

:44:25.:44:30.

books, in the Bible, the Koran. Can we cast judgments on the past

:44:31.:44:37.

estimate absolutely. Even the debates we have had already today.

:44:38.:44:43.

-- the past? We learn from the past and it is what helps us change the

:44:44.:44:46.

future. Have we got anything to apologise for? Absolutely. It is not

:44:47.:44:54.

about as an individual having a link to slavery but we have reaped the

:44:55.:44:58.

rewards of slavery and colonialism in this country. The UN, the

:44:59.:45:04.

committee for the elimination of racial discrimination, they have

:45:05.:45:06.

said that the Scottish Government that those historical moments in our

:45:07.:45:11.

history should be compulsory within the education system and currently

:45:12.:45:17.

they are not. The slave trade, conservative estimates say 12

:45:18.:45:22.

billion people were taken from Africa, some of the more Afrocentric

:45:23.:45:28.

historians say it was a lot more, it could well be a lot more, what about

:45:29.:45:32.

the people driven off the land in Scotland, the Irish potato famine,

:45:33.:45:39.

the massive Arab slave trade and Africans trading Africans? It is a

:45:40.:45:46.

very complicated situation. What is not complicated is that slavery was

:45:47.:45:53.

about property and ownership. If you were an enslaved African, you had

:45:54.:45:56.

absolutely no rights, you were treated... Is completely different

:45:57.:46:03.

to any other kind of servitude happening at the same time. It is

:46:04.:46:11.

arguable. Michael Fry. Slavery was a terrible and horrible thing but the

:46:12.:46:15.

fact is that in the past, it was not against the law. There is nothing in

:46:16.:46:19.

the Bible, for example, that condemns slavery. The dues were

:46:20.:46:30.

slaves in Egypt and God sent the plate but it was because they were

:46:31.:46:37.

Egyptians. St Paul says that in Jesus Christ is neither slave nor

:46:38.:46:43.

free. It did not matter what your social status was. But it is not a

:46:44.:46:49.

condemnation of slavery. It accepts that slavery is a fact of life, as

:46:50.:46:55.

slavery was a fact of life until the 18th century. You are talking about,

:46:56.:47:01.

you jumped from the law and straight from legal situations to using a

:47:02.:47:08.

faith group, the Bible. When you think about slavery, you are correct

:47:09.:47:13.

when you say it was enshrined in law and that is the key thing, it was a

:47:14.:47:20.

loud, like it was OK to treat people inhumanely. I personally feel we

:47:21.:47:26.

have to understand that as a country we allowed that to happen and I

:47:27.:47:33.

think there is still a lot of... Michael. It was a global thing.

:47:34.:47:39.

Should the whole 21st-century, everyone living in the 21st century,

:47:40.:47:43.

apologised to everyone living in the 18th century? This is ridiculous.

:47:44.:47:49.

And what difference would it make? I think it would make a big

:47:50.:47:53.

difference, particularly looking at the city of Glasgow and the amount

:47:54.:47:57.

of people who are black minority ethnic who live in this city, just

:47:58.:48:02.

over 12% and it is growing, I think if we invested in the fact these

:48:03.:48:06.

people contributed and their ancestors, including my own,

:48:07.:48:09.

contributed to the history of Scotland, contributed to the

:48:10.:48:14.

Enlightenment, I think that is an important... What about other

:48:15.:48:22.

countries? Because of British pressure, partly, they made it

:48:23.:48:26.

illegal to have slavery in Saudi Arabia, in the Yemen, in the early

:48:27.:48:33.

60s. The Arab slave trade, there are many countries that should

:48:34.:48:36.

apologise, many countries who profited. We are in a very difficult

:48:37.:48:42.

situation. One of the issues of Scotland is, we talk about the

:48:43.:48:47.

Enlightenment, Scotland and the abolition movement, yes, the

:48:48.:48:50.

abolition movement helped to stop slavery, but it did not look for

:48:51.:48:55.

equality, it did not want the enslaved African people to be equal

:48:56.:48:59.

in human terms. That is something this generation has the opportunity

:49:00.:49:04.

to address. Human rights was in nascent form, the concept was barely

:49:05.:49:11.

recognised. Nice to have you back on the programme. I try my best to be

:49:12.:49:17.

fair and I accept everything, this is about Jamaica, the Caribbean, I

:49:18.:49:21.

would turn it around and say ?10 million Jamaica received from

:49:22.:49:24.

building prisons, perhaps that should be put into hospitals? When

:49:25.:49:29.

we spoke to a lot of Caribbean people, we did a survey and over

:49:30.:49:36.

2000 people said they would rather money, if there is money left in the

:49:37.:49:41.

pot, by the time it came to me, I would get 50p, that we would

:49:42.:49:45.

transfer that to hospitals, infrastructure in the Caribbean. We

:49:46.:49:48.

are talking about Jamaica specifically or the Caribbean, an

:49:49.:49:53.

apology was sort of received from Tony Blair but it was not quite, I

:49:54.:49:59.

am sorry. We all know legally, once you say sorry, the lawyers will come

:50:00.:50:04.

out. It cannot be done. I regret it happened. What about the... The

:50:05.:50:14.

massive scar on our society of what happened in the past, it casts a

:50:15.:50:18.

long shadow in the wake we perceive ourselves and in the way we regard

:50:19.:50:28.

the other. That is in the past. Why should the 20th-century young people

:50:29.:50:31.

have to apologise? What I would suggest people do when people ask

:50:32.:50:37.

people like me who work in the Caribbean community, this is what

:50:38.:50:43.

most of us would like, yes, an apology, and this is what we would

:50:44.:50:47.

do, build schools, infrastructure in the Caribbean, something like that,

:50:48.:50:51.

and you talk about history, the BBC had a brilliant programme last year

:50:52.:50:56.

about black history, that was fantastic. Things like that, we need

:50:57.:51:01.

to see them in schools. Education. We have museums in certain countries

:51:02.:51:07.

already, in areas, Liverpool, Bristol, that is the kind of

:51:08.:51:13.

thing... We are in complete agreement about that. If you go into

:51:14.:51:20.

the George Square, there are 12 statues there, all of the statues

:51:21.:51:24.

had a direct link or in direct link to slavery. Those people and even

:51:25.:51:30.

the streets in Glasgow, the plantation owners, the business

:51:31.:51:34.

owners, they are the people who are celebrated. It is about looking at

:51:35.:51:39.

it differently. It is not about saying not having that street names

:51:40.:51:42.

but giving the real history of who those people are. It is about

:51:43.:51:52.

acknowledgement and awareness. I find the moral stance quite

:51:53.:51:56.

appalling. I do not believe in this transfer of moral sponsor political.

:51:57.:52:02.

The SS guards in the concentration camps could have said to the Jewish

:52:03.:52:07.

children they were shovelling into the gas chambers if the children

:52:08.:52:12.

said, what have we done? They would say, you have done nothing, but you

:52:13.:52:17.

are morally responsible. That was the necessary argument. Do you

:52:18.:52:21.

believe in amoral transference of guilt to contemporary Germany? --

:52:22.:52:28.

amoral transference. It is not my subject area. I am here to talk

:52:29.:52:35.

about... It is a moral issue and part of it. David Coburn, the shame?

:52:36.:52:42.

Not my subject, I cannot understand that. I am not going to make

:52:43.:52:47.

comparisons with the Holocaust. I felt that is what the question was

:52:48.:52:52.

asking me to do and I am not in a position to do that. The

:52:53.:52:57.

transference of moral guilt. Slavery is an appalling thing and it still

:52:58.:53:02.

is and it is still happening and I think instead of worrying about what

:53:03.:53:05.

happened in the past, although you should never forget what happened in

:53:06.:53:10.

World War II, we should be worrying about modern-day slavery and we

:53:11.:53:15.

should look at the Taliban, for example, who want to win slave

:53:16.:53:20.

women. I am a feminist and I believe in ladies' writes. Leslie taught me

:53:21.:53:26.

about that at school. You were at school together? Yes. I want young

:53:27.:53:32.

girls to get the same opportunities to go to school and not be paid

:53:33.:53:36.

servants in the household. We worry about that. Until 1923 in North

:53:37.:53:42.

Africa, there was still slavery. It was the Royal Navy... The Atlantic

:53:43.:53:49.

slave trade was incomparably evil. The Royal Navy suppressed the slave

:53:50.:53:55.

trade. William Wilberforce in Parliament got rid of the slave

:53:56.:53:59.

trade. One of the first countries in the world. That should never be

:54:00.:54:03.

forgotten. Let me get people who have come here to specifically talk

:54:04.:54:06.

about this. What about the role of religion? Can you condemn people in

:54:07.:54:12.

the 18th century for believing the Bible? No, we cannot condemn them

:54:13.:54:19.

for believing the Bible. Slavery endorsed in the Bible. I would like

:54:20.:54:24.

to point out, using the fact that the slave trade happened in the

:54:25.:54:29.

Bible to justify it happening is out of place because the Bible as a holy

:54:30.:54:36.

book has to report it as it is. The fact some people... It does not

:54:37.:54:48.

justify it. Abraham and others... Hang on, New Testament as well? The

:54:49.:54:54.

fact all of these things happened in the Bible does not mean the Bible

:54:55.:55:00.

condones it. We can understand people for inferring it does.

:55:01.:55:05.

Slaves, about your earthly masters, in singleness of heart, as you obey

:55:06.:55:10.

Christ, in order to please them... This is disgusting. It is not

:55:11.:55:15.

condoning the slave trade. There are things we are doing today, today we

:55:16.:55:23.

do not see anything wrong with it, what was going on in their mind?

:55:24.:55:28.

That is what happened. In the Bible, the fact the Bible reported it, the

:55:29.:55:35.

downside of the people we refer to as the Saints, they had their dark

:55:36.:55:43.

side. Looking back, the slave trade was wrong then and it is still wrong

:55:44.:55:49.

today and it will be Brom tomorrow -- be wrong tomorrow. Hands up in

:55:50.:55:54.

the audience, gentlemen there in the black. Quick points. The thin end of

:55:55.:56:02.

a very big wedge. This happened eight generations ago. Nobody here

:56:03.:56:07.

is responsible for that. Around the same time of the Highland

:56:08.:56:10.

clearances, human being is were replaced by sheep. Not as brutal in

:56:11.:56:15.

anyway, but it was in its own way brutal. People were evicted and they

:56:16.:56:18.

would have died in the process. They came to the lowlands. Should

:56:19.:56:24.

Scotland be suing England for that? We have done terrible things, human

:56:25.:56:28.

beings. What would you like to say? I think we are quite wealthy a

:56:29.:56:34.

country and we got there based on a lot of the slave trade. I think we

:56:35.:56:39.

do owe a lot of what we have now to these nations that we have abused

:56:40.:56:44.

and I think that we do owe them something. The trend is wealth of

:56:45.:56:49.

this nation, much of it was built on the slave trade to this day. It was

:56:50.:56:56.

built on hard work and usually by people underpaid and sometimes in

:56:57.:57:00.

this country and in others. Tobacco, cotton. Thanks to Wilberforce and

:57:01.:57:07.

Parliament, the Royal Navy suppressed the slave trade. The US

:57:08.:57:11.

still had massive slavery. We were suppressing it. Britain can take a

:57:12.:57:18.

very high... Guy Standing. We must make an apology because the slave

:57:19.:57:22.

trade enriched our country, much of the wealth we have today is because

:57:23.:57:27.

of slavery. I also think we ought to be paying more attention to current

:57:28.:57:33.

day slavery and devoting more resources as a reflection of the

:57:34.:57:36.

moral commitment to fighting existing slavery. It is not

:57:37.:57:42.

appreciated how many contracts the British Government makes with

:57:43.:57:45.

countries that openly sanction having slavery.

:57:46.:57:48.

APPLAUSE One of the most beautiful findings

:57:49.:57:55.

we have had with our basic income pilots in developing countries is

:57:56.:58:01.

that it has enabled a number of people who have been slaves in debt

:58:02.:58:07.

bondage for generations to be able to fund the purchase of freedom and

:58:08.:58:12.

that is one of the most wonderful results we have seen in Africa and

:58:13.:58:18.

India. Michael Fry, ten seconds, how careful do we have to be about the

:58:19.:58:23.

definition of a slave? We have to be very careful indeed. For example,

:58:24.:58:28.

Glasgow was not built on the slave trade, it was built on trade with

:58:29.:58:34.

colonies which had slaves on their plantations. Thank you very much for

:58:35.:58:37.

that clarification. We have to leave it there.

:58:38.:58:39.

As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.

:58:40.:58:42.

Next week, we're in Southampton, so do join us then.

:58:43.:58:44.

But for now, it's goodbye from Glasgow and have a great Sunday.

:58:45.:58:47.

Nicky Campbell presents the Big Questions live from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow. In this show he asks:

Is Scotland still owed a say over Brexit? Should the state give everyone a basic income? And should today's generation make amends for slavery?