Episode 9 The Big Questions


Episode 9

Similar Content

Browse content similar to Episode 9. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Today on The Big Questions: Sex in the classroom,

:00:00.:00:10.

pictures of us the police have on file, and slashing

:00:11.:00:12.

the human birth rate to save other species.

:00:13.:00:28.

Today, we're live from the Students' Union at Northumbria University

:00:29.:00:35.

Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

:00:36.:00:38.

On Wednesday, the Education Secretary, Justine Greening,

:00:39.:00:44.

announced that all schools, including academies and private

:00:45.:00:47.

schools, must provide age-appropriate sex

:00:48.:00:48.

From the age of four, all children will be taught

:00:49.:00:56.

about relationships between adults and what is appropriate

:00:57.:00:58.

behaviour between children, and between adults and children.

:00:59.:01:04.

And in secondary schools, sex education lessons will cover

:01:05.:01:06.

today's fastest growing risks - sexting, cyber-bullying

:01:07.:01:08.

Should porn be on the school curriculum?

:01:09.:01:19.

Clare McGlynn, law school, Durham University. What is it about the

:01:20.:01:27.

modern world, how things have changed which means schools really

:01:28.:01:31.

have to refocus and address this? The guidance schools have on sex and

:01:32.:01:36.

relationships education is 16 years old, completely out of date. We

:01:37.:01:39.

welcome the government's announcement this week. We need to

:01:40.:01:42.

give guidance and help to our young people to talk about what you

:01:43.:01:46.

mentioned, consent and sexual relationships. We need to talk about

:01:47.:01:50.

this online world that is so new to all of them and that many parents

:01:51.:01:56.

don't understand. About 16, online pornography, cyber bullying.

:01:57.:01:59.

Importantly, we need to give them this guide of -- about sex sting.

:02:00.:02:06.

This is part of a broader strategy to reduce the prevalence about

:02:07.:02:08.

sexual harassment and violence against women and girls. APPLAUSE

:02:09.:02:13.

On this particular issue, cyber bullying and sexting and porn, this

:02:14.:02:20.

is about equipping children to deal with the world as it is, not the

:02:21.:02:24.

world as you would like it to be or the world as it was. Absolutely. I

:02:25.:02:28.

don't think anyone would disagree that we need to equip children.

:02:29.:02:32.

There are some questions around what's actually going to be in the

:02:33.:02:36.

curriculum, we don't know yet, the content hasn't been published. As

:02:37.:02:39.

soon as the announcement was made, there was quite a strong campaign to

:02:40.:02:44.

remove the parental opt out. Quite a campaign to say that the religious

:02:45.:02:48.

protection and protection of religious education should be

:02:49.:02:52.

removed. Isn't there a problem that those who would opt out and take

:02:53.:02:55.

their children out of these classes are perhaps disproportionately the

:02:56.:02:58.

very parents who would be less likely to address these issues at

:02:59.:03:01.

home? That's possible. The question is, how do we empower parents to

:03:02.:03:06.

have this conversation? The evidence is very clear that parents want to

:03:07.:03:09.

have these conversations with their children. And children would prefer

:03:10.:03:12.

to have those conversations with their parents as well. Parents don't

:03:13.:03:17.

know what to say, they don't know how to have conversations in terms

:03:18.:03:20.

of online threats. Their children are much more technologically savvy,

:03:21.:03:26.

they don't know how to deal with it. One of the things I will be

:03:27.:03:29.

campaigning for while this debate is going on is, what are we doing to

:03:30.:03:33.

empower parents as well as empowering students? And also, what

:03:34.:03:37.

are we doing to secure the family? The biggest influence on any child

:03:38.:03:42.

when they are growing up is their family. I don't actually see

:03:43.:03:45.

anything in these proposals that say we will be talking about building

:03:46.:03:50.

strong families. The government's own evidence... In what sense?

:03:51.:03:54.

Stronger, traditional families? Strong families where adults love

:03:55.:03:59.

their children, children learn to love and be loved, trust and be

:04:00.:04:03.

trusted. Places that are safe for their children. Should there be a

:04:04.:04:07.

parental opt out? I don't think so. We need to think about the child's

:04:08.:04:12.

rights. What about religious sensibilities? This is for the

:04:13.:04:16.

children. We owe our children the education and guidance they need to

:04:17.:04:19.

deal with consent, sexual relationships and the online world.

:04:20.:04:22.

We can't let parents opt out of this because we need to give the skills

:04:23.:04:26.

to the child. If we are going to reduce sexual harassment and sexual

:04:27.:04:32.

violence, you can't opt out of that. Everyone needs to know about

:04:33.:04:35.

consent. Everyone needs to understand what is necessary in

:04:36.:04:38.

consent and sexual relationships, we can't have an opt out. I think you

:04:39.:04:42.

absolutely have to have a parental opt out simply because the child is

:04:43.:04:48.

the child of the parent. The parent should have as much control as

:04:49.:04:50.

possible over their children and should decide these things. To say

:04:51.:04:56.

the state should have the ability to override parents, whether it is

:04:57.:05:00.

religious reasons or personal reasons, to take their child out of

:05:01.:05:03.

sexual education is frightening. That is a frightening prospect to

:05:04.:05:06.

say the state should have more control about what their children

:05:07.:05:09.

are taught rather than their parents. It is actually about

:05:10.:05:12.

collective response of the leading role of us to educate our children

:05:13.:05:16.

and young people on these issues. We can't have parents just opting out

:05:17.:05:20.

of these choices. What about the sex culture? Rape culture that people

:05:21.:05:33.

talk about, male violence in our schools and society generally. This

:05:34.:05:38.

comprehensive evidence was put before the cross-party select

:05:39.:05:43.

committee. It is a problem and the best place is starting in education

:05:44.:05:47.

in our schools. This is part of a really gross panic about the levels

:05:48.:05:50.

of sexual harassment. We don't have a huge levels of sexual harassment

:05:51.:05:54.

at school, we are talking about teaching, four-year-olds about adult

:05:55.:06:01.

issues. This new call for greater sex education with things about

:06:02.:06:04.

pornography and sexting and relationships is about making sex a

:06:05.:06:11.

big deal for kids that they are panicked and frightened before they

:06:12.:06:15.

need to be. Liz, you are moving so much in your chair, I am worried for

:06:16.:06:19.

the safety of the furniture! Audience in a second. The reality

:06:20.:06:25.

is, we deliver relationship and sex education to 24,000 children and

:06:26.:06:28.

young people each year. More than 2000 parents as well. The reality is

:06:29.:06:34.

very, very few parents actually withdraw their children from

:06:35.:06:38.

relationship and sex education. Especially when they understand what

:06:39.:06:42.

it covers. We send out letters to say that we will be working with

:06:43.:06:47.

three-year-olds, up to 18-year-olds. And from aged four, we will be

:06:48.:06:52.

covering issues such as pornography, sexting. Such as that. This brings

:06:53.:06:57.

loads of parents in because it's like, panic, what on earth are you

:06:58.:07:01.

going to be doing? Over to the experts? Yeah. When they see the

:07:02.:07:06.

age-appropriate resources that we use, parents are completely at ease.

:07:07.:07:11.

They understand that the world that we are moving into is very, very

:07:12.:07:15.

different from when they were at school. Casper, why are you shaking

:07:16.:07:19.

your head? I would definitely want to opt out for my children. I

:07:20.:07:24.

actually think the agenda behind a lot of this stuff that is being

:07:25.:07:29.

suggested to be taught, and is being taught, is a really degraded notion

:07:30.:07:33.

of what it is to be human. It implies that all men are a problem a

:07:34.:07:37.

lot of the time. It problem ties is normal sexual behaviour. It is

:07:38.:07:43.

really outrageous. It is disturbing. What do you mean it makes problem...

:07:44.:07:52.

To thinking that way. What do you mean it problematizes is normal

:07:53.:07:54.

sexual behaviour? Basically, it encourages young

:07:55.:08:00.

people to see everybody else as a potential threat. To see all sexual

:08:01.:08:07.

activity as potentially dangerous. It's a really unhealthy way of

:08:08.:08:11.

looking at the world. Look at all the child abuse cases in the past

:08:12.:08:14.

which are horrific and horrendous. Any right minded person is brought

:08:15.:08:21.

to tears reading about it. Dan, let me throw that, from the Catholic

:08:22.:08:25.

Herald, I don't mean to beat Italy point at you for that reason, but

:08:26.:08:30.

the Catholic Church has had huge problems -- I don't mean to

:08:31.:08:33.

particularly point. Maybe if children were empowered and knew

:08:34.:08:36.

what it was right and wrong to touch, what was right, what was

:08:37.:08:40.

wrong, what somebody should not be doing to you, taught from a very

:08:41.:08:43.

early age, that would have stopped some of these horrors in the past

:08:44.:08:47.

visited on them by clerics? You are right, we can't do enough to

:08:48.:08:50.

safeguard children and the Catholic Church is one of the institutions

:08:51.:08:54.

which has bailed out that. In the past when it comes to sex education,

:08:55.:08:59.

not a one agrees about the guidance -- which has failed in that in the

:09:00.:09:04.

past. One of the leading guidance on sex education, as part of their

:09:05.:09:07.

definition of sexual healthy development include 413-year-old

:09:08.:09:10.

having sex with those of a similar age and develop mental

:09:11.:09:13.

13-year-olds. You may agree with that but a lot of parents would want

:09:14.:09:18.

to opt out of that. That is why it should go back to the parents and

:09:19.:09:21.

not too what are often quite radical agenda being pushed. Radical

:09:22.:09:27.

agendas, we will get onto alleged radical agendas, actual radical

:09:28.:09:32.

agendas in the second -- in a second. Good morning. Is this

:09:33.:09:37.

appropriate in school at an early age? Going back to a point raised

:09:38.:09:43.

earlier, I am surprised to hear from a young girl in myself that she

:09:44.:09:46.

doesn't believe there is sexual harassment in this day and age.

:09:47.:09:49.

There certainly is. International women's day is coming up and in

:09:50.:09:53.

preparation a teacher at my school asked a group of girls together to

:09:54.:09:58.

ask about our opinions. Our daily experience of the sexual harassment,

:09:59.:10:02.

does it exist, and it certainly does exist. Good education at a very

:10:03.:10:07.

early stage and in primary school and secondary school, would it

:10:08.:10:13.

militate against that? Certainly. People who believe that teaching

:10:14.:10:18.

about porn at school will somehow people will then imitated is

:10:19.:10:22.

certainly not true. If you believe that porn is dangerous, there is

:10:23.:10:28.

more reason to teach about it. You can't educate ourselves out of a

:10:29.:10:33.

social problem. We really have to take a step back and see that there

:10:34.:10:38.

is such a hype and panic around sexual harassment and sexual

:10:39.:10:42.

assaults. Which is inflating stats and is untrue. The biggest losers in

:10:43.:10:46.

this conversation are women and young girls that are taught sex

:10:47.:10:50.

education in this very panicked, very frightened we. It teaches them,

:10:51.:10:56.

as Casper said, to see all sexual relations as problematic. They are

:10:57.:11:00.

taught to tick box for things like consent in a very unnatural way,

:11:01.:11:05.

which makes them grow up to be women who encounter sexual relations as a

:11:06.:11:08.

potential threat, as a problem, rather than a great part of life. An

:11:09.:11:12.

emotional formalised codification. Absolutely. Good morning. It was

:11:13.:11:19.

quite interesting how one of you was going on about making good families.

:11:20.:11:22.

I find it important that schools should be a safe place for children.

:11:23.:11:26.

Especially if you are from a broken family, from divorced parents. And

:11:27.:11:30.

both parents don't have that communication to talk to one

:11:31.:11:36.

another. About sex education. And it is left completely by itself. You

:11:37.:11:41.

have children who have no support from parents who don't want to talk

:11:42.:11:44.

to one another about sex education. And they only see school as a safe

:11:45.:11:49.

place, a safe environment where they have this, kind of, antagonistic

:11:50.:11:53.

behaviour at home. So they rely on their teachers. People who they see

:11:54.:12:00.

five times a week. For the good part of eight hours a day. They rely on

:12:01.:12:04.

teachers. Especially from a very young age. It's incredibly important

:12:05.:12:09.

to have sexual education in schools. APPLAUSE

:12:10.:12:13.

Whilst it is important to have this, this ought to be done in very close

:12:14.:12:23.

cooperation with parents. If parents feel that they are left out of this

:12:24.:12:28.

initiative, I don't like it can work. OK. I completely agree with

:12:29.:12:34.

that. I called you lose early on. You went on regardless, which is

:12:35.:12:38.

exactly the right thing -- I called you Liz. What is appropriate for a

:12:39.:12:42.

three-year-old, teaching a three-year-old or a four-year-old?

:12:43.:12:47.

And how that is done. When we go into primary schools, we work with

:12:48.:12:51.

the nursery children first. It is a little session, about ten minutes.

:12:52.:12:57.

We show them little drawings, little cartoon boy and cartoon girl, to

:12:58.:13:01.

explain that boys' bodies are different to girls' bodies, their

:13:02.:13:04.

bodies are private and nobody should touch them unless they want them to.

:13:05.:13:08.

And we go through the four area that nobody should touch unless they want

:13:09.:13:13.

them to, the mouth, the chest, always have a Venus and girls have a

:13:14.:13:18.

joiner and bare bottom. We get them to do the action and they think that

:13:19.:13:24.

is great fun. -- always have a penis and girls have a vagina. Parents

:13:25.:13:31.

liked seeing the resources. Why are you looking horrified? This is a

:13:32.:13:34.

terrible intrusion onto the innocence of children. Children

:13:35.:13:40.

played doctors. It is a great thing. Adults exploit innocent children.

:13:41.:13:44.

We're not talking about adults, we're talking about children's

:13:45.:13:48.

interactions with themselves. The previous point about educating

:13:49.:13:52.

children about where they should not be touched, a small three-year-old

:13:53.:13:56.

will not be able to stop an adult. Can I just say, nothing takes away

:13:57.:14:01.

children's innocence. It does if you say this is bad. From sexual abuse.

:14:02.:14:07.

Kids play! The great thing about kids, they figure out a lot on their

:14:08.:14:12.

own. They figured out a lot on their own and between each other. They

:14:13.:14:15.

played doctors and nurses, all this kind of stuff, lines are drawn and

:14:16.:14:19.

they work it out between themselves. You are damning parents' ability to

:14:20.:14:26.

take care of their children. Surprising to see people very

:14:27.:14:28.

concerned about the family of children, the nine children --

:14:29.:14:34.

denying children the power to protect themselves. When people say

:14:35.:14:38.

that should be for the parents, there is nothing about educating

:14:39.:14:41.

children in schools that stops parents from educating them at home.

:14:42.:14:44.

They are really saying, I don't want my children to know about this. I

:14:45.:14:49.

won't tell them, I don't want you to tell them because I feel it is

:14:50.:14:53.

mysterious and scary. They probably are not going to find out about it,

:14:54.:14:57.

they will not look into it. If they tell you about it they will be

:14:58.:15:00.

interested and find out about porn, sex doing -- sexting and

:15:01.:15:07.

relationships. They will find out about porn. Casper.

:15:08.:15:13.

It is scary to tell a child they should be worried about a person

:15:14.:15:19.

touching them? Or grid that is an adult responsibility, three-year-old

:15:20.:15:24.

can protect themselves. It is not about a child being able

:15:25.:15:28.

to protect themselves, it is the child having the knowledge to go to

:15:29.:15:31.

an adult and seeing it as inappropriate.

:15:32.:15:37.

APPLAUSE If the parents were doing such a

:15:38.:15:40.

good job without the state then we would not have some of the scandals

:15:41.:15:42.

we have seen. This is adding to what parents do

:15:43.:15:46.

and protecting young people, it should be encouraged. Education is

:15:47.:15:49.

about giving the knowledge skills for people to go into the world,

:15:50.:15:53.

being aware of sexual expectation is some of the knowledge they need.

:15:54.:15:57.

There is an issue with the underpinning ideology of a lot of

:15:58.:16:02.

the campaigning. We skated over that, what is the underpinning

:16:03.:16:07.

ideology? You are from Christians in Education. The underpinning ideology

:16:08.:16:13.

is that there is no right or wrong, good or bad, society should do as it

:16:14.:16:17.

wishes and let's teach children to defend themselves. When we teach

:16:18.:16:20.

children how to cross the road we do not teach them about different cars,

:16:21.:16:25.

we teach them that can stop at a red light and they can cross safely. Why

:16:26.:16:30.

are we not talking about moral red lights amongst adults if society?

:16:31.:16:35.

Give some examples. I have not seen anything about teaching young people

:16:36.:16:46.

about abstinence, faithfulness and exclusivity within marriage. Why are

:16:47.:16:48.

we not teaching those? John, you made a strange phase. I apologise if

:16:49.:16:51.

it was nothing to do with what was said.

:16:52.:16:55.

Children have rights completely separate to the parents, it has been

:16:56.:16:59.

touched on already that sometimes parents do a terrific job and I

:17:00.:17:02.

think the programmes described can help parents in that, but children

:17:03.:17:07.

have rights completely separate to parents, and I think probably the

:17:08.:17:12.

programme talked about here is to enforce children's' writes as

:17:13.:17:16.

separate individuals. What was it like for you, growing up in Ireland?

:17:17.:17:22.

My own case was happy enough but Ireland generally, we had enormous

:17:23.:17:27.

problems with abuse, particularly among religious orders and so on, it

:17:28.:17:32.

was a huge com huge problems. Religious control of education in

:17:33.:17:36.

Ireland meant that lots of people were abused and there was no

:17:37.:17:40.

reporting system, children were disabled from reporting and there

:17:41.:17:44.

was a whole generation of broken adults out of that system. Would

:17:45.:17:48.

knowledge have been power? Absolutely. How can knowledge be

:17:49.:17:58.

power? There is a difference... Knowing to tell an adult... An adult

:17:59.:18:04.

to abuse as a child usually it's in -- intimidates, lies, tells them

:18:05.:18:08.

they are at fault and not to tell, all of these things you see in

:18:09.:18:13.

actual abuse cases. You will not protect a child by telling them this

:18:14.:18:17.

stuff and you are not allowing... That is a sinister manifestation of

:18:18.:18:23.

something they pretend is love, that happens quite often. Let's take it

:18:24.:18:33.

back to abstinence. You are missing the point about what is damaging

:18:34.:18:35.

about teaching people in this way. Children will have a terrible view

:18:36.:18:38.

of adults. Lots of people say fidelity and abstinence and

:18:39.:18:42.

constancy, should that be taught? These are part of a discussion about

:18:43.:18:47.

relationships. There are some real misunderstandings here. This is not

:18:48.:18:50.

about telling children what to do. The worst thing you can do as

:18:51.:18:54.

children is as as adults say this is what you need to do and how you do

:18:55.:18:58.

it. It is giving them a forum to discuss issues, the young women

:18:59.:19:03.

themselves are asking us to give them these opportunities. The bottom

:19:04.:19:07.

line is that if we do not educate them they are going online, looking

:19:08.:19:12.

at pornography online, as many do, it is deeply racist, deeply sexist,

:19:13.:19:17.

often violent, sexual lies as young girls and does not give a healthy

:19:18.:19:21.

view of sexual relationships. It is distorted. -- Id sexual lies as

:19:22.:19:27.

young girls. If we do not educate them, they will get this distorted

:19:28.:19:31.

view of what is going on. APPLAUSE

:19:32.:19:37.

Who decides what the content is? Who decides what children should and

:19:38.:19:40.

should not know? That is what worries me. The Internet the sides,

:19:41.:19:45.

hence the sexting, pornography, cyber bullying. It is decided for

:19:46.:19:52.

them. We really need to stick up for parents, we get a lot of parent

:19:53.:19:56.

bashing. When people are given sex education, my own family are very

:19:57.:20:03.

good at talking about sex education, there are other families that are

:20:04.:20:06.

not and that is where school needs to step in. You are saying but some

:20:07.:20:10.

parents are abusing their children by not teaching them about sex ads,

:20:11.:20:14.

whether that is religious parents or parents who want to hang back and

:20:15.:20:20.

let their children because well -- by not teaching them about sex

:20:21.:20:24.

education. They are very important and special family units in which

:20:25.:20:27.

parents have control over their children, it is worrying. I grant

:20:28.:20:35.

you the last word. How do we allow kids to be kids? All of us working

:20:36.:20:41.

together, schools, parents and specialist organisations working

:20:42.:20:44.

together to keep children safe. The one thing we seem to have made the

:20:45.:20:49.

assumption about in the debate here is that where children are abused it

:20:50.:20:54.

is adults. One out of every three children that are sexually abused is

:20:55.:20:59.

abused by another child. It is educating children to speak out to

:21:00.:21:04.

trusted adults, whether at home or at school. Thank you all very much

:21:05.:21:08.

indeed. APPLAUSE

:21:09.:21:08.

Interesting thoughts. If you have something to say

:21:09.:21:11.

about that debate log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

:21:12.:21:13.

and follow the link to where you can We're also debating live this

:21:14.:21:16.

morning in the Students' Union at Northumbria University,

:21:17.:21:20.

is your image public property? And does the planet need the Vatican

:21:21.:21:23.

to accept contraception? Get tweeting or emailing on those

:21:24.:21:27.

topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may have

:21:28.:21:30.

about the programme. The Police National Database,

:21:31.:21:36.

which covers England and Wales, is storing pictures and videos

:21:37.:21:39.

of people they may have questioned, arrested, or observed

:21:40.:21:41.

at demonstrations or festivals, many of whom were never

:21:42.:21:43.

convicted of any offence. 19 million items are from

:21:44.:21:49.

custody images alone. With DNA evidence and fingerprints,

:21:50.:21:53.

the police are legally obliged to automatically destroy any records

:21:54.:21:56.

they hold of people found And in 2012, the High Court ruled

:21:57.:21:58.

that keeping images of innocent Yet, despite this ruling,

:21:59.:22:05.

the police continued to amass Now the Home Secretary has ruled

:22:06.:22:10.

that images of innocent people should be deleted

:22:11.:22:17.

but only if the person concerned specifically

:22:18.:22:20.

asks for this to happen. The snag is that many of us have no

:22:21.:22:24.

idea whether our image Paul, Lord Scriven, you have been

:22:25.:22:44.

campaigning on this for a long time. Who is on this database? We don't

:22:45.:22:49.

know, that is the issue. If you have been into custody, false arrest, or

:22:50.:22:55.

the court found you innocent, you are on, because the guidance that

:22:56.:22:59.

just comes out says that the database and the software they are

:23:00.:23:03.

using does not have the ability to wipe you offer. The software does

:23:04.:23:07.

not know if you are innocent or guilty so you remain on, there are

:23:08.:23:12.

millions of people. They are scanning Facebooked, scanning people

:23:13.:23:15.

who have been to festivals who have been uploaded. Why should people be

:23:16.:23:20.

worried? The whole basis of British law is you are innocent until proven

:23:21.:23:26.

guilty. I have no problem with the police using good detective

:23:27.:23:31.

techniques and appropriate images, but to say that the Government has a

:23:32.:23:35.

right to have your face on a database which is not just used by

:23:36.:23:40.

the police but many other Government agencies because of the fact you

:23:41.:23:45.

have been to a festival or they have been scanning your face page or you

:23:46.:23:49.

were wrongly arrested and uploaded onto the system, that they can keep

:23:50.:23:56.

and use it for enquiring about a crime or about... You could get a

:23:57.:24:01.

photograph of every single person in this audience by googling it,

:24:02.:24:05.

looking online, you could probably get that of anyone within two or

:24:06.:24:09.

three minutes, it is out there. There is a difference between you

:24:10.:24:14.

and I as an individual citizen going on to Google and uploading something

:24:15.:24:19.

on Facebook, and the state holding millions of innocent images for the

:24:20.:24:24.

purpose of its own use. That is the issue.

:24:25.:24:29.

APPLAUSE You are a body language and

:24:30.:24:34.

deception detection expert, a former cop, why is this useful?

:24:35.:24:38.

Digital policing for a digital age? In terms of gathering evidence, I

:24:39.:24:42.

would agree that capturing people's images carte blanche is not really a

:24:43.:24:47.

good idea, but I think if people have been convicted of offences, for

:24:48.:24:51.

example DNA came in many years ago, it is something we accept now. A lot

:24:52.:24:56.

of offences come to light now, historically, that otherwise would

:24:57.:25:01.

not have been convicted. It has got a place, providing it is regulated

:25:02.:25:07.

and not used, again, just to capture innocent people's images, that could

:25:08.:25:12.

be potentially dangerous. How reliable is it, even DNA, which is

:25:13.:25:17.

amazing, there could be mistakes with contamination, lots of people

:25:18.:25:22.

look like each other? There are lots of systems at the moment in terms of

:25:23.:25:27.

capturing biometric characteristics, fingerprints, we all use

:25:28.:25:30.

fingerprints on phones, biometrics and things like that are very much

:25:31.:25:34.

out there in part of normal society at the moment. If you were a

:25:35.:25:39.

criminal, how would you circumvent this, 3D masks are coming out? I saw

:25:40.:25:46.

that in the press. For most systems there will be a loophole, but it

:25:47.:25:49.

comes down to the fact that if you are not engaged in terrorism or

:25:50.:25:54.

crime, you generally have nothing to worry about, providing the system is

:25:55.:25:58.

regulated. You have nothing to worry about? Have you got something to

:25:59.:26:03.

worry about? I worry about my relationship with the state and the

:26:04.:26:07.

police treating me as a potential criminal. I am not a potential

:26:08.:26:14.

criminal, I hope I am not. In this instance, my right to privacy and

:26:15.:26:18.

not to be treated as a suspect, but also it is not actually effective

:26:19.:26:22.

for the police to have a bigger database, it does not make it

:26:23.:26:27.

better. The DNA database this year has been more successful than ever

:26:28.:26:31.

because it is not clogged up with millions of innocent people that the

:26:32.:26:34.

police do not need their information. Police don't need my

:26:35.:26:39.

photograph. To have it does nothing to improve their detection rates.

:26:40.:26:46.

APPLAUSE I look at it from a legal point of

:26:47.:26:51.

view, we have a right to privacy, article eight of the European

:26:52.:26:55.

Convention on human rights, it is qualified because if it is necessary

:26:56.:26:58.

in a democratic society for the state to interfere which, in this

:26:59.:27:03.

case, could be the police, to prevent or detect crime, it is

:27:04.:27:06.

qualified. The High Court ruling in 2012, that

:27:07.:27:11.

is untrue. Article eight, they said if you are innocent or convicted,

:27:12.:27:25.

the police, the state, cannot use your image in that way. The

:27:26.:27:28.

guidelines that have just come out say that the Home Secretary has

:27:29.:27:30.

said, whether you are innocent or guilty and you don't ask that your

:27:31.:27:33.

image to be taken off that you may not know, they will store it for up

:27:34.:27:36.

to ten years and use it in the same way as a convicted person. The issue

:27:37.:27:39.

is not police using it, I believe it has a role, the issue is that people

:27:40.:27:42.

not convicted of anything are having their face used by the state and

:27:43.:27:44.

presumed guilty rather than innocent, that is the issue.

:27:45.:27:50.

I think the issue, I agree, if the person is arrested, I don't like

:27:51.:27:54.

that wrongful arrest, the person arrested with insufficient evidence

:27:55.:27:58.

to charge... That is the classic argument, nothing to hide, nothing

:27:59.:28:04.

to fear? Is a person is arrested and there was insufficient evidence to

:28:05.:28:07.

charge and they are acquitted in court and they have no other

:28:08.:28:10.

offences, I agree, destroy the image. There are individuals who

:28:11.:28:16.

have a criminal background who are still being investigated, it is

:28:17.:28:21.

useful. People failing to answer bail, it is useful. It is useful for

:28:22.:28:26.

identification purposes. Our faces change, I look at people my age,

:28:27.:28:31.

some have lost their hair, we all change, it is useful. That is why

:28:32.:28:36.

you constantly need to update? Your face is not as private as your DNA

:28:37.:28:41.

or fingerprint. People adding photographs taken at music

:28:42.:28:44.

festivals, they are not aware that is happening. I can't justify why

:28:45.:28:51.

they are doing that. Let's go to the audience, good morning. Your face is

:28:52.:28:56.

on a TV screen! That may be useful, but I would

:28:57.:29:01.

prefer if my pers -- my permission was sought, that is the big

:29:02.:29:05.

difference. No matter how useful something maybe, if someone is

:29:06.:29:09.

aware, at least, that their image is used, that is a lot more helpful.

:29:10.:29:13.

They can have a choice in the matter. Moving along to you in the

:29:14.:29:17.

brown jacket. The problem would be false

:29:18.:29:21.

positives. With an increasing amount of civilian population you run the

:29:22.:29:25.

risk of having false positives. The other notorious bad fact about

:29:26.:29:29.

facial mapping is it can't do contrasting in darker tone in skin,

:29:30.:29:33.

if you're going to implement something that takes away freedom

:29:34.:29:37.

and miscarriages of justice, surely there is no reason to involve

:29:38.:29:41.

innocent people into it? If you have ten people lined up and the picture

:29:42.:29:46.

is all with an ethnic minority, surely there is nine times out of

:29:47.:29:52.

ten a chance for false positives? It is not guaranteed you will come up

:29:53.:29:53.

with the culprit. A couple more audience members

:29:54.:29:58.

first. As a person who chance Harry Krishna

:29:59.:30:09.

mantras, I've come to understand that 24-7 surveillance by Krishna or

:30:10.:30:13.

God. That's not a problem, sometimes I am comforted by it because I

:30:14.:30:16.

understand he loves me and he's my friend. The issue we have with state

:30:17.:30:23.

surveillance is that that trust that the state is our well wish is being

:30:24.:30:28.

eroded. Dodgy dossiers, wiki leaks, etc. Divine Big Brother is one thing

:30:29.:30:37.

that the state, Kim Jong learned in the sky... Fine that erosion of

:30:38.:30:40.

public trust is a problem because it morphs into our own relationships

:30:41.:30:45.

between each other. It creates paranoia and distrust amongst

:30:46.:30:49.

people. Spiritual practice has a role to play in mitigating that. It

:30:50.:30:55.

helps us to understand that we are all connected and we are loved

:30:56.:30:58.

amongst each other. Interesting link with the first debate, sowing the

:30:59.:31:02.

seeds of paranoia. It is not paranoia if you are being watched

:31:03.:31:06.

and monitored, is it? Are they not out to get you? It is absolutely

:31:07.:31:11.

true. The vision of the police and the state as a friendly Big Brother.

:31:12.:31:14.

That it's OK if you have nothing to hide, nothing to fear. That's a

:31:15.:31:20.

terrifying concept. Any freethinking member of society would absolutely

:31:21.:31:23.

stand up for the fact that I am innocent until proven guilty. This

:31:24.:31:27.

could prove your innocence as well. It could go the other way. We are

:31:28.:31:31.

increasingly living in a culture which is much more comfortable with

:31:32.:31:34.

putting your picture on Facebook, putting a picture on the intranet.

:31:35.:31:38.

That is one thing when it is in your own personal control but the

:31:39.:31:43.

police... They must have hundreds of pictures of me because I've been on

:31:44.:31:46.

many demonstrations. That makes me feel nervous. The police have a

:31:47.:31:51.

history of not exactly being to the line and write about using images.

:31:52.:31:54.

They have a history of fitting crimes. We can't ignore that. This

:31:55.:32:01.

is a worrying concept. -- and being right about using images. There can

:32:02.:32:06.

be a degree of paranoia about state observation. It is not just about

:32:07.:32:10.

photographs. A recent piece of legislation came out late last year.

:32:11.:32:14.

It was highly scrutinised in my view. But this is about people

:32:15.:32:19.

worrying about what's on their social media. Andrew at MI5 18

:32:20.:32:27.

months ago before the Parliamentary committee said we haven't got the

:32:28.:32:30.

resources to monitor everybody's social media. It's about risk.

:32:31.:32:37.

Journalists, it's a very good resource for journalists, social

:32:38.:32:41.

media. When a story comes out about somebody, they are straight in

:32:42.:32:46.

there. There are photographs of them from social media all over the

:32:47.:32:51.

newspapers. The police still police by consent in this country. We still

:32:52.:32:56.

have that notion. But where is the consent from the millions of people

:32:57.:32:59.

on this database that are being used? There is no consent. It is a

:33:00.:33:06.

bit trite to say the police at the moment police by consent. There is

:33:07.:33:10.

no consent. I worry that it is undermining confidence in the

:33:11.:33:14.

police. I come from South Yorkshire where the police has been undermined

:33:15.:33:18.

by bad policing. I believe this will... Rotherham. This will lead to

:33:19.:33:22.

bad policing. From what the young man said. There is an issue about

:33:23.:33:28.

racial profiling in terms of facial imaging. It has proven that people

:33:29.:33:33.

with dark pigments and darker skin, facial software gets it wrong. Only

:33:34.:33:37.

one test has been done on a database of 1 million faces. Everyone says

:33:38.:33:43.

this is about 90% perfect. The examples have been done on databases

:33:44.:33:49.

of between 12,000 at 20,000 people. The one case that has been done in

:33:50.:33:53.

America which is on 1 million shows it goes down to only 33%

:33:54.:33:57.

effectiveness. There is an issue about the technology not being

:33:58.:34:01.

effective. Compounded by the fact that there are millions of people on

:34:02.:34:06.

here. If you have somebody that is suspected of being involved,

:34:07.:34:08.

terrorism things like that, the states have already got the systems

:34:09.:34:12.

in operation and I agree it is by no means foolproof, things like

:34:13.:34:17.

polygraph. It is not evidential. It just eludes to certain behaviours.

:34:18.:34:21.

But if it may be helps to prevent something happening, it's got to be

:34:22.:34:28.

a good thing, hasn't it? If I am on a plane and there is somebody taken

:34:29.:34:32.

off that plane that is suspected and it's been detected through facial

:34:33.:34:35.

recognition, you know, again, you've got to have the evidence but surely

:34:36.:34:41.

it's a good thing? What if they are wearing a burqa? Are you saying that

:34:42.:34:44.

the assumption in our society should be that they should show their

:34:45.:34:51.

faces? Not necessarily. If there is intelligence, for example, I would

:34:52.:34:53.

to a conference recently and I saw this software first-hand. It is not

:34:54.:35:00.

perfect. But if people have been tagged for intelligence, they are

:35:01.:35:03.

suspected of being involved in offences, this software was actually

:35:04.:35:10.

quite accurate in picking out... Tagging the delegates. Saying

:35:11.:35:13.

imagine you I suspect, walk towards us in a group and it facially trips

:35:14.:35:19.

it, red flags them. It all comes down to the fact that, for me, it

:35:20.:35:25.

has to be evident regulated. Not everybody should be on this

:35:26.:35:28.

database. It is a dangerous concept. But people that have been convicted

:35:29.:35:33.

are suspected. It's a good thing. But it is the old point, isn't it,

:35:34.:35:39.

Carol, they might have these photographs, they might be collating

:35:40.:35:43.

all of this information, but it's like the Stasi, the Soviets Soviet

:35:44.:35:50.

Union. -- the Soviet Union. I went to work towards the end of the

:35:51.:35:55.

soviet union. There is so much stuff, for practical purposes, you

:35:56.:35:58.

cannot wade through it. That is one thing we have to think about. We are

:35:59.:36:04.

infringing on rights. We are encroaching upon this idea of

:36:05.:36:06.

trusting the police and policing by consent. We have to do that in a

:36:07.:36:13.

balanced fashion. To say, what are the benefits? Are we benefiting from

:36:14.:36:17.

this? Is it an effective use of police resources to have a database

:36:18.:36:21.

with 90 million if mostly they will get false positives? Or if it will

:36:22.:36:26.

impact on police. I disagree horribly with the idea that because

:36:27.:36:31.

it's your image, that it's less intrusive -- disagree homely. The

:36:32.:36:36.

police officer can't see my DNA profile and then start questioning

:36:37.:36:38.

me or suspect me of something because my but they can because of

:36:39.:36:44.

my face. I can't hide that. If a police officer sees my photograph

:36:45.:36:48.

because I've been supporting the NHS at the weekend at a march and they

:36:49.:36:53.

see me at a shop and is triggered something in their mind that she's

:36:54.:36:58.

on the police database... That impacts on their behaviour. Would

:36:59.:37:01.

you be happy if the police were to take photographs of everybody on a

:37:02.:37:07.

BMP much? They haven't done anything wrong by being on a BMP March. If

:37:08.:37:12.

they have committed crimes or suspected of committed crimes, the

:37:13.:37:17.

police have measures they can date. Or in March of jihadis. The police

:37:18.:37:21.

are given powers in society. They are allowed to abrogate our rights

:37:22.:37:24.

in certain instances but we don't give them every power under the sun.

:37:25.:37:28.

David, do you think they are certain demonstrations... I do, without

:37:29.:37:34.

doubt. There are some groups who are maybe bordering on being described

:37:35.:37:41.

groups under the terrorism act. That will be... We are talking about

:37:42.:37:45.

people like Anshan Choudhury. A group like that. Some of those

:37:46.:37:49.

people have never committed a crime that you want to film them. The

:37:50.:37:52.

police have the right, if somebody is suspected of about to commit a

:37:53.:37:57.

crime, they can monitor them. That's within the law. Let me ask you

:37:58.:38:01.

again, people on rallies supporting somebody like an jam Choudhury,

:38:02.:38:05.

there might be 25 people. You have seen them with placards, should you

:38:06.:38:09.

not be filming those people? Absolutely not. If the police have

:38:10.:38:13.

determined that the lower case march is lawful.

:38:14.:38:16.

If the law says that it is lawful, people have the right to march. If

:38:17.:38:23.

there are individuals who the police know of, who are potential suspects,

:38:24.:38:28.

under the law, they are able to do that. It becomes a very slippery

:38:29.:38:32.

slope if you start saying some marches are good, some aren't. Is it

:38:33.:38:36.

legitimate to say he is newcomer he hasn't been on a March before, let's

:38:37.:38:42.

keep an eye on him? It is people's democratic right to protest. On

:38:43.:38:45.

certain marches like certain groups like David said, I think there are

:38:46.:38:50.

under certain circumstances, the police film things for intelligence

:38:51.:38:52.

circumstances. It is not right. You either have a

:38:53.:38:59.

right to do that without being filmed or monitored or you don't.

:39:00.:39:05.

You can't make an argument for freedom, but not for freedom for

:39:06.:39:08.

others. This is what the police does, this technology is the way I

:39:09.:39:14.

see it, more advanced version of stopping and searching. Targeting

:39:15.:39:17.

certain groups. The police are taking pictures and videos, there

:39:18.:39:22.

was a hilarious example, frightening, people tweeting a

:39:23.:39:25.

police of Michael McIntyre from a helicopter in sky. And that was a

:39:26.:39:32.

wake-up call. What they do is they target demonstrations, they target

:39:33.:39:35.

areas they think crime should happen. Very problematic in terms of

:39:36.:39:39.

racial profiling. This says certain people need to be watched. If you

:39:40.:39:44.

believe in freedom of expression and people's right to privacy and the

:39:45.:39:46.

belief that you are innocent until proven guilty, no matter if you are

:39:47.:39:51.

on an Antrim shroud it march or NHS March, you can't have a freedom

:39:52.:39:57.

but... Let me know. I'm going to curtail your freedom of speech.

:39:58.:40:00.

LAUGHTER Thank you all very much for taking

:40:01.:40:01.

part in that. If you have something to say

:40:02.:40:06.

about that debate log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

:40:07.:40:08.

and follow the link to where you can We are in Canterbury next week,

:40:09.:40:25.

Cardiff on March 19 and Oxford after that.

:40:26.:40:27.

This week, the Vatican held a conference on the

:40:28.:40:29.

Half of all the species alive today could be extinct

:40:30.:40:33.

by the end of this century, unless steps are taken

:40:34.:40:35.

to improve conservation and to change humans' behaviour.

:40:36.:40:37.

One of the most contentious issues is the growth

:40:38.:40:39.

At the time of Christ, around 300 million people

:40:40.:40:44.

Today there are 7.4 billion people, and experts say with 250,000 net

:40:45.:40:49.

added every day now, the world's population

:40:50.:40:51.

will reach 11 billion by the end of this century.

:40:52.:40:56.

The Pontifical Academy of Sciences, which organised the conference,

:40:57.:41:00.

says that in 1970 humans were using around 70% of the earth's

:41:01.:41:03.

Yet 800 million people are chronically malnourished

:41:04.:41:13.

and 100 million are on the verge of starvation at any one time.

:41:14.:41:21.

Huge problems you can read about in your newspaper this morning.

:41:22.:41:24.

Changes must be made, they say, or there will be a sixth mass

:41:25.:41:27.

Does the planet need the Vatican to accept contraception?

:41:28.:41:36.

Karen, 11.2 billion by the end of the century. On this Little Rock

:41:37.:41:43.

spinning in this part of this universe. Can the cannot cope? The

:41:44.:41:47.

answer to the question is that we really don't know. We are taking a

:41:48.:41:52.

big gamble with the future lives and well-being billions of people, many

:41:53.:41:57.

of whom are life already. Children today have a good chance of being

:41:58.:42:00.

alive at the end of the century of see whatever it is we have created

:42:01.:42:05.

for them come to fruition. Where will the resources come from?

:42:06.:42:08.

Exactly. People often say we already produce enough food for 10 billion

:42:09.:42:12.

people. I haven't yet seen people say 11 billion. This is perfectly

:42:13.:42:17.

possible, the numbers, as much as 13 billion is well within the range of

:42:18.:42:21.

certainty. For the UN's projections. No one is saying... They are saying

:42:22.:42:26.

we already produce quite a lot of food and we will be fine. What they

:42:27.:42:29.

don't mention is that we are producing food in an unsustainable

:42:30.:42:34.

manner. We are producing food in a way that destroys productive

:42:35.:42:37.

capacity of the earth. Some techno optimists might say, we will figure

:42:38.:42:41.

something out. We might. I certainly hope we will. But we just don't

:42:42.:42:46.

know. We are pretty clever, some of us. We are pretty clever but we

:42:47.:42:49.

certainly don't know it will happen and we don't know if we will solve

:42:50.:42:53.

this problem. The population is not set in stone, the trajectory is not

:42:54.:42:56.

set in stone, people can change their minds about how many children

:42:57.:42:59.

to have. A lot of people today are not using contraception. Not because

:43:00.:43:04.

they want to have a lot of children, but because they feel it's wrong.

:43:05.:43:08.

They've been told it's wrong. It's full got to decide how many children

:43:09.:43:12.

to have. They are often feeling internal turmoil because they would

:43:13.:43:15.

like to provide for the children they already have. So we are in

:43:16.:43:19.

trouble? It is trouble for them. They feel unsupported by their

:43:20.:43:23.

culture religious leaders. In their wish to have a smaller family. So we

:43:24.:43:30.

could so easily make people's lives better and reduce this enormous risk

:43:31.:43:33.

to human beings and to our life. It's not coincident that we've lost

:43:34.:43:38.

more than half of wildlife -- coincidence that we've lost. As the

:43:39.:43:42.

same time as human population doubling. Lots of coincidences. Dan

:43:43.:43:47.

from the Catholic Herald, we actually... You might not

:43:48.:43:51.

particularly care for the wild or for wildlife, but we need animals.

:43:52.:43:58.

Because we need forests. Animals sustained forests. With no animals,

:43:59.:43:59.

there are forests. It's all about needing space, humans

:44:00.:44:07.

going into ever more areas. The ecosystems are so important. How

:44:08.:44:11.

much does it bother you that we are, for example, annihilating and

:44:12.:44:16.

destroying our closest relatives, the great apes, because of habitat

:44:17.:44:20.

destruction for palm oil? For biscuits, charcoal, does that

:44:21.:44:23.

trouble you? It is a huge issue both the future

:44:24.:44:33.

of the human race and the beauty of the. If there is a threat to the

:44:34.:44:38.

environment does not come from overpopulation, it comes from

:44:39.:44:41.

overconsumption. Look at fossil fuel emissions, and major threat to the

:44:42.:44:45.

environment. The average American produces the same amount of carbon

:44:46.:44:49.

emissions as 250 Ethiopians. The poorer half of the world's

:44:50.:44:54.

population produces 7% of the omissions. The problem is one with

:44:55.:44:58.

the ritual's consumption. Palm oil is a very good example. Sure. And,

:44:59.:45:05.

surprisingly enough, the rich world, instead of saying we need to look at

:45:06.:45:09.

how we consume and our society works has said that the real problem is

:45:10.:45:13.

poor people in Bangladesh being selfish and having more than three

:45:14.:45:18.

kids. I think we need to look urgently at what the West does.

:45:19.:45:22.

Those are the people that would be covered in the floods and suffer

:45:23.:45:25.

from famine, those will be the people... It is not a case of saying

:45:26.:45:29.

don't have any more children, it is saying that if we have too many

:45:30.:45:33.

children, you are the people who will suffer. Population growth is

:45:34.:45:36.

overwhelmingly in place is not creating the environment or

:45:37.:45:39.

problems, if we need to look urgently at the environment we need

:45:40.:45:45.

to look at... And a lot of people worried about overpopulation,

:45:46.:45:48.

population scientists like Stewart Brand who was very involved in the

:45:49.:45:51.

70s with the great panic about overpopulation, they say we got it

:45:52.:45:54.

completely wrong, we did not understand that the more people you

:45:55.:45:58.

have, the more creativity and ideas you have. They are now worried about

:45:59.:46:02.

under population, you will get to the middle of the century... Good

:46:03.:46:06.

luck with getting President Trump to halve the living standards of the

:46:07.:46:10.

American population. We asked him to appear on the programme but he does

:46:11.:46:19.

not like the BBC! John, the Pope said this is about greed, Dan put it

:46:20.:46:22.

very well, if we consumed less and properly managed agriculture,

:46:23.:46:26.

properly respected and protected the wild and the beautiful scent

:46:27.:46:31.

self-aware wild animals and dung beetles as well, and bumblebees, we

:46:32.:46:36.

would be all right. It is all about being sensible? Of course it is. I

:46:37.:46:41.

have to agree with Dan, consumption is a dagger at the heart of the

:46:42.:46:47.

natural world. However, consumption is one of the crunchers that we

:46:48.:46:51.

face. Population can never be extracted from this. For example, we

:46:52.:46:56.

have this idea and I think Dan referred to it as under population,

:46:57.:47:01.

the danger of under population. We are currently adding 80 million

:47:02.:47:05.

people a year to the world population, greater them the

:47:06.:47:08.

population of Great Britain, about the population of Germany being

:47:09.:47:11.

added to the world population every year. The strange thing is that

:47:12.:47:15.

according to UN figures, approximately 80 million people have

:47:16.:47:20.

unintended pregnancies every game. If we simply enabled people to

:47:21.:47:26.

control and manage their own fertility in the way that they wish

:47:27.:47:32.

and enable girls and young women to postpone first pregnancy and

:47:33.:47:35.

complete their education, we would offer an economic benefit to the

:47:36.:47:40.

poor... I want to come onto that in a moment, that first of all let's

:47:41.:47:44.

address the natural world. People say that the acidification of the

:47:45.:47:48.

ocean, the Wales, it is their planet. Look at what is happening in

:47:49.:47:52.

Africa. It is their planet, these wonderful species. Are enough people

:47:53.:47:57.

aware of the fact that these are very often sentience, self-aware

:47:58.:48:03.

animals with an inner life? When I started primary school in 1970, we

:48:04.:48:11.

had at that time 58% more wildlife in the world than today. It is

:48:12.:48:15.

collapsing at that rate. The reason I bring that up is that my kids are

:48:16.:48:19.

in primary school and they have asked me, well, look, if in your

:48:20.:48:24.

lifetime, that 40 year period, about two thirds of the animal world has

:48:25.:48:28.

been wiped out, what will happen when it comes to us when we are

:48:29.:48:33.

adults? When I am asked that question, the short answer is that

:48:34.:48:36.

if we continue on our current trajectory there will be no natural

:48:37.:48:45.

world by the time my kids are adults. It looks like an

:48:46.:48:47.

extraordinary statement, that is the trajectory. Population is part of

:48:48.:48:51.

that, overconsumption is, but they all work together. Do we respect the

:48:52.:48:56.

natural world enough, the sentience of some animals? Absolutely not,

:48:57.:49:01.

there is a wonderful book called Beyond Words which explores the rich

:49:02.:49:05.

psychological lives of intelligent creatures like, for example,

:49:06.:49:10.

elephants, amazing social creatures who live in long-standing families

:49:11.:49:15.

headed by matriarchs up to 60 years of age. We humans have not a clue

:49:16.:49:20.

about the natural world. We are terrific at expressing and

:49:21.:49:28.

articulating our own needs, desires and wants, but we are blundering

:49:29.:49:30.

like lumbering giants into the natural world. This is the ultimate

:49:31.:49:33.

own goal, if we destroy the natural world which, by the way, we are

:49:34.:49:39.

right on progress to do, if you insist Roy the natural world, human

:49:40.:49:43.

society would collapse, no two ways about it. -- if you destroy the

:49:44.:49:46.

natural world. APPLAUSE

:49:47.:49:53.

What about the resources, mining? We do not have the resources, they are

:49:54.:50:00.

finite. How will we cope? I don't buy any of that. What didn't you

:50:01.:50:08.

buy? Everything that was just sad. I don't believe in sentience being

:50:09.:50:13.

comparable to Allah sentience. There was recent peer-reviewed science,

:50:14.:50:17.

but we will move on from that. What about resources? -- I don't believe

:50:18.:50:27.

in sentience being comparable to our sentience. Silicon has only recently

:50:28.:50:34.

become a resource. I don't want to try to predict to the end of the

:50:35.:50:40.

century, that is ridiculous. When I think about what has changed in my

:50:41.:50:43.

lifetime I have no idea what will be the main resources we will be using

:50:44.:50:48.

for whatever purpose by the end of the century, which is quite good.

:50:49.:50:54.

The young kids of today will invent the world that will exist and 50, 70

:50:55.:50:57.

years. Will they look around and say there is no more wildlife, no weld

:50:58.:51:03.

animals, no ecosystems? That seems very, very unlikely. We are

:51:04.:51:11.

exploiting resources on those habitats. Oil exploration in the

:51:12.:51:16.

Veranda National Park, you finish off the mountain drillers, they are

:51:17.:51:21.

self-aware creatures with an inner life, a right to be here. -- you

:51:22.:51:28.

finish off the mountain gorillas. I am not sure about that. About what?

:51:29.:51:34.

Whether they have a right to be year. Because nothing other than

:51:35.:51:38.

humans have a right to be here?! So the 500 million years before humans

:51:39.:51:42.

arrived, we have only been here 200,000 years, so apparently nothing

:51:43.:51:47.

mattered before humans arrived. An extraordinary conceit. May I take up

:51:48.:51:56.

the argument that we don't know what resources people will be using in

:51:57.:51:58.

future? I think we can be pretty sure we will still use freshwater

:51:59.:52:01.

for a lot of survival needs, people will still need food, they will

:52:02.:52:04.

still need livelihoods and sources of energy, all of those things are

:52:05.:52:09.

and a significant strain and it is quite irresponsible to say, oh, we

:52:10.:52:12.

will figure something out and continue as we are when we say it is

:52:13.:52:20.

just the trajectory of our culture and population. Aren't we too set on

:52:21.:52:31.

material comforts and benefits? It is extremely hard to change

:52:32.:52:35.

consumption. People say it is all about consumption. They all to

:52:36.:52:42.

suggest ways to do that. I don't want to underplay the importance of

:52:43.:52:45.

finding ways to reduce consumption but it is incredibly hard. But to

:52:46.:52:52.

make as though population does not matter is showing a tremendous lack

:52:53.:52:55.

of compassion not only to wildlife but to people, to human beings in

:52:56.:53:00.

countries experiencing fast population growth, where

:53:01.:53:03.

unemployment is rising... And for women, can I pick up the point that

:53:04.:53:08.

you started with? Dan, we have a situation here that we have a church

:53:09.:53:18.

run by men who have never known a woman telling women that they should

:53:19.:53:24.

have lots of children. Not at all, the Church nudges bishops in Rome,

:53:25.:53:27.

it is the biggest charitable organisation beyond any comparison

:53:28.:53:31.

on earth -- the church is not just bishops in Rome. It includes

:53:32.:53:35.

doctors, nurses, missionaries, many, many women. What about reproductive

:53:36.:53:41.

rights? The data I have shown suggests that there is a vast

:53:42.:53:44.

distribution of contraceptives across the developing world, often

:53:45.:53:48.

at the expense of the health care women need and the real needs of

:53:49.:53:58.

people in the developing world. For instance, there is an archbishop in

:53:59.:54:01.

Ghana... It is a sin to take... And Archbishop and Ghana said he ran a

:54:02.:54:04.

network of clinics and they could not get support from the major NGOs

:54:05.:54:06.

and agencies because they refuse to provide abortion and contraception,

:54:07.:54:11.

that is prioritising and ideology of population control over what people

:54:12.:54:14.

need. There are innumerable stories of medical staff who say women come

:54:15.:54:20.

to me needing penicillin for their sick children, needing malaria

:54:21.:54:24.

medication, they don't have it, what I have is shelves full of condoms

:54:25.:54:31.

because that is what the NGOs... Privileging and ideology? If we

:54:32.:54:34.

privilege the rights of women and girls, that is fine by me.

:54:35.:54:38.

APPLAUSE We need to alter the Vatican's view

:54:39.:54:42.

on contraception. It seems like a win-win, we might

:54:43.:54:46.

help the population but we would also help reduce poverty and also

:54:47.:54:49.

have a better economic situation, that is a win-win all round. There

:54:50.:54:56.

is no chance of this happening on contraception? Something simpler

:54:57.:54:59.

solecism can change, this is one of them. I don't think it should be a

:55:00.:55:04.

worry -- some things in pathology is cannot change. The church noses...

:55:05.:55:12.

Knows the causes of deprivation, wall, corrupt political structure.

:55:13.:55:16.

The Democratic Republic of Congo is threatened by war and resulting

:55:17.:55:21.

Common. Who is negotiating a peace deal? The church. Who is handing out

:55:22.:55:27.

a medical aids, educating, giving help to more people than any of

:55:28.:55:31.

institution? The Catholic Church, I think we should trust them. Trust

:55:32.:55:37.

the church is great, let's take the Philippines, the highest birth rate

:55:38.:55:42.

in Asia. In the Philippines, we have half a million illegal abortions are

:55:43.:55:46.

yet, 2500 Filipina women each year die as a result of illegal abortions

:55:47.:55:56.

-- half a million illegal abortions EGF. That is the result of the

:55:57.:56:01.

Catholic Church in the Philippines. It has resisted and taken 12 cases

:56:02.:56:04.

to the Supreme Court in the Philippines. The idea you can't get

:56:05.:56:07.

penicillin for your child because the shelves are heaving with condoms

:56:08.:56:14.

is... The Philippine medical Association say differently, they

:56:15.:56:17.

have opposed legislation in the Philippines to provide more

:56:18.:56:19.

contraception because this way that many macro would be better spent on

:56:20.:56:26.

maternal care. Who controls -- who controls the Philippine medical

:56:27.:56:29.

Association? I imagine Filipino doctors. Lots of people say on

:56:30.:56:34.

health grounds we need more funds for maternal care, many, many

:56:35.:56:38.

Filipinos oppose the introduction of contraception and abortion because

:56:39.:56:40.

they say it is a foreign eye geology are not what we need. On foreign

:56:41.:56:45.

ideologies, I am a little sceptical, maybe it is coming from Ireland, we

:56:46.:56:50.

were effectively a catholic state of the first 70 years of our

:56:51.:56:55.

independence, we sought the brunt of the church's interest in babies up

:56:56.:56:59.

to the moment of their birth. Beyond that point they lost interest in

:57:00.:57:01.

them. APPLAUSE

:57:02.:57:08.

The secular state in Ireland finally wrestled some control away from the

:57:09.:57:12.

Church and I personally find it tragic to see the same mistakes

:57:13.:57:15.

being made in countries like the Philippines right now that we in

:57:16.:57:20.

Ireland were the victims. At overlooks the huge contribution made

:57:21.:57:24.

by the Church, which is not equalled by any other body in the world. How

:57:25.:57:30.

do you keep population down? Do you need to, when so many population

:57:31.:57:35.

scientists say... Yes, we do. I hope you will not tell is 100 billion

:57:36.:57:40.

people will be fine, these are all possible worlds... The UN projection

:57:41.:57:45.

is wee peek at about 11 to 12 billion, that is the same until

:57:46.:57:55.

2300. -- the UN projection is that we peak ad. This is building a lot

:57:56.:57:58.

of assumptions that fertility will fall, they are extrapolating from

:57:59.:58:07.

current trends, I was quite interested in how you think that

:58:08.:58:11.

family planning is not something that women need, that what they need

:58:12.:58:15.

is medical care but they don't really need birth control. We will

:58:16.:58:19.

have to leave it there. Thank you all very much indeed. As always, the

:58:20.:58:23.

debates continue online and on Twitter.

:58:24.:58:24.

Next week, we're in Canterbury, so do join us then.

:58:25.:58:26.

But for now, it's goodbye from Newcastle and have a great Sunday.

:58:27.:58:29.

Thank you. APPLAUSE

:58:30.:58:46.

I attended Mr Delaney's funeral and a ghost appeared.

:58:47.:58:53.

I witnessed and participated in darkness that you cannot conceive.

:58:54.:58:59.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS