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Today on The Big Questions: Misrepresenting Islam, | :00:07. | :00:08. | |
reincarnation, and marriage - is it what you make it? | :00:09. | :00:24. | |
Today we're live from Heartlands Academy in Birmingham. | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
The activities of Islamist extremism across the globe have killed many | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
more Muslims than people from other faiths, as we saw yet again | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
earlier this month, when 80 worshippers were killed and 250 | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
injured by an Islamist suicide bomber at the Sufi Muslim shrine, | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
Last week Pope Francis declared that Muslim | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
Just as no-one puts the blame on Christianity when Christians | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
engage in violent or criminal activities, so neither | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
should Islam be blamed for the crimes of Islamists. | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
Good morning, everyone. Sammy Yacoub, who is guilty of | :01:11. | :01:24. | |
misrepresenting Islam? -- Salma Yaqoob. Who does it? I think right | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
now it is a bit of an industry. Research done by a Californian | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
university found that millions of dollars a year are paid out to | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
people paying them to run these kind of stories. What kind of stories? | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
Saying negative things about Muslims. The issue you referred to | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
was a reality. The people that carry out these atrocities, it is their | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
responsibility and of course it is right to talk about it. Can I stop | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
you there? You are immediately blaming the west. But you asked me a | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
question. Shouldn't you say that the people who misrepresent Islam are | :02:03. | :02:10. | |
the people that join Isis? The people who slaughtered the | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
cartoonists... You are actually interrupting me halfway through that | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
very sentence. I was talking about that very issue. The people that | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
carry out these atrocities they first, primarily and mainly | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
responsible. For me as a that is very important. Here in Birmingham | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
we have organised protests in Muslim communities, saying not in our name, | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
and we reject these people who carry out this kind of violence. But the | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
Pope has a point. When violent activities occur, we shouldn't blame | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
a whole religion. That was an atrocity in Pakistan and my family's | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
roots are in Pakistan and of course I feel strongly about what is | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
happening there, but you haven't mentioned that this very weak | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
hundreds of Muslims in Burma have been killed by Buddhists. I wouldn't | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
say this about Buddhism, of course I wouldn't. There are people around | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
the globe, in a Iraqi and Afghanistan, where millions of | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
Moslems were killed, but they still would not blame Christianity. The | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
soldiers themselves may have claimed that faith, many of them. It is | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
wrong to blame a whole religion. Does it mean that all religions are | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
progressive? No. It doesn't mean they are all reactionary? No. It is | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
a spectrum. You will see extremist and all backgrounds, atheists and | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
religious, and it is important to say that. Sadia Hameed, is it | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
important people say they are doing it in the name of a faith? Yes. I do | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
think we need to start talking about some of harmful elements of Islam. | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
In the Koran it does advocate violence and rape even. And we are | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
not addressing that. We are doing Muslim is a disservice, really. We | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
do misrepresent Muslims, but Islam is not misrepresented. There are | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
very violent and harmful passages within the Koran. Talking about | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
slavery? Yes, and social and sexual and domestic violence. But the study | :04:19. | :04:26. | |
has shown there is a two to one ratio of Ireland versus peaceful... | :04:27. | :04:34. | |
Did Muhammad have sex slaves? Yes, and his followers, and it is still | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
advocated today. I think last week of the week before Doctor Jonathan | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
Brown was talking about slavery within Islam and he was talking | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
about how they feed their slaves and they sheltered them. There is sex | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
trafficking in the modern day. We don't excuse it. I think for Sadia | :04:54. | :05:03. | |
Hameed to quote the Koran without knowing it at all is unfair. I | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
didn't interrupt you. There are verses that talk about war and | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
peace. It also that marriage and relationship. In the life of the | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
Prophet, it is not true that he had sex slaves. He had been married to | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
many women. Most of his wives were divorcees, and elderly people, and | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
at that time, in those days, people were not given protection in that | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
way in the patriarchal society they lived in. The grant is very explicit | :05:31. | :05:40. | |
about relationships. -- the Koran. When we confuse the verses of | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
warfare, which of course appear in the Koran, against our notion of | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
peas and justice of violence, of course it creates confusion. It | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
requires interpretation, doesn't it? But who says your interpretation is | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
right and somebody else's is wrong? I am not saying mine is right. I am | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
saying it is very simple. In the Arabic language there is a common | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
dictionary you can pick up and understand and it is about common | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
sense. It is a language that is very rich with a long history. There is a | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
science of interpretation so you cannot interpret willy-nilly the | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
sayings of the Prophet. Refer to the part, contextualise it in the time | :06:22. | :06:27. | |
you live, and back it up with science most importantly. If your | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
God wants peace in the world and he gives you a book, I would expect it | :06:34. | :06:40. | |
to say very explicitly be peaceful. It does. It shouldn't take any | :06:41. | :06:47. | |
interpretation to pick those bits out. The points you raise is very | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
important, Nicky. Do we misrepresent? And we do by giving | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
the wrong understanding. The word Islam means peace, and the entire | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
lifestyle is one who submits to peace. I think we have got to make a | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
very important distinction between Islamist extremism and Muslim people | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
in general. The two are very different. We need to focus on the | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
extremists, who as you rightly said her primarily targeted fellow | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
Muslims, who don't conform to their particular interpretation of Islam. | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
With regard to whether atrocities and outrages should be labelled as | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
Islamic or not, when it came to the Crusades, it would be absurd to say | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
they had nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity was the | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
motivation of those crusades and those atrocities against the Muslim | :07:36. | :07:44. | |
world, and likewise a very small minority of Muslims are misusing and | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
abusing, or in some places they would be following interpretation of | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
the Koran, and doing things in the name of Islam, and we should not | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
deny the connection. Let's not deny the cultural here. Islam is not just | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
one thing. It is hundreds of thousands of different types and too | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
often it is put in one box and that this incredibly similar stick. An | :08:10. | :08:18. | |
ICM poll shocked people. The theories about 9/11, that Jewish | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
people did it, and some people think it is a creditable poll, but 50% of | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
Muslims thought that homosexuality should be illegal. Illegal? But I | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
would contend that is not necessarily to do with Islam but to | :08:33. | :08:40. | |
do with cultures within Islam. Cultures that practice Islam from | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
less socially progressive societies, no? They don't tolerate | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
homosexuality within Islam. A lot of religions don't tolerate | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
homosexuality. Right from a very young age, being told it is not | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
acceptable within Islam, they are going to grow up into adults | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
thinking it is not an acceptable lifestyle. Now we do have, as the | :09:01. | :09:09. | |
Council of ex-Muslims, we do have people who come to us who are | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
homosexual, who have had to leave the faith, because the entire | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
community, their entire families have turned their backs on them. | :09:19. | :09:27. | |
What about people who abandon their faith? If Islam was so peaceful, we | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
wouldn't have people coming to us telling us their lives were at risk | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
and we wouldn't have honour killings and forced marriages and those | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
things still happen. Let's hear from Salma Yaqoob on that. Is there a | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
problem in Islam within apostasy? I think there is a problem in all | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
religions and belief systems when it comes to orthodoxy, who claims the | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
mainstream and who claims the fringes. We have talked about | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
homosexuality. But can we not leave other religions with less bother and | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
threat? No, because an exception is being made, and it is important to | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
contextualise. Your whole life you have been campaigning for gay rights | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
and you are not given in an Islamic country campaigning for gay rights, | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
and we see Donald Trump using right conservatism is backed by the | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
right-wing Christian churches in America, attacking the progressive | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
rights of gay and lesbian people. This is not a uniquely Muslim | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
cultural issue and that is what I take exception to. Peter? On this | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
point, most Muslims get it fundamentally wrong. The Koran has | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
no explicit condemnation of demisexuality and it prescribes no | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
punishments. That is based on an interpretation that leads many | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
Muslims to condemn homosexuality. If you believe in the Koran, the Koran | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
itself says this is the word of Allah and it requires no | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
interpretation and no perdition. It is not in the Koran that | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
homosexuality is explicitly wrong and it prescribes no punishments, | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
and so Muslim south no authority to condemn LGBT people. Sacred texts | :11:06. | :11:13. | |
are being interpreted by different people through their own cultural | :11:14. | :11:23. | |
prison. Or prism. Some thoughts from the audience. Apostasy, what are | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
your thoughts on that? There are many examples historically during | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
the time of the Prophet where people did decide to leave the faith and | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
said it wasn't part of them and they lived in absolute harmony with the | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
Muslim is at that time. What I think is happening... Can I ask you a | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
question? You obviously have great knowledge and faith. You can | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
understand somebody in the so-called Islamic State being fed the line | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
from the Koran on apostates if they turn back, take hold of them and | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
kill them wherever you find them. They might say that means what it | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
says. That has been taken out of its historical essence and context. That | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
is the problem, isn't it? What Islamic State are doing is taking | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
Koranic interpretation in a literal and puritanical sense. Arabic has | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
many layers. When you interpret Arabic. I work in counter extremism | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
in Birmingham and I run an organisation where we tackle | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
radicalisation and we provide the evidence to show where | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
contextualisation of the Koran can cause more damage. What we are not | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
seeing today is the fact that cultural infiltration within the | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
faith has caused a huge amount of problems when it comes to | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
interpretation and the actual expressions of faith as we are | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
seeing it today. That needs to be removed. People need to go down and | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
understand what is representative of the faith and what is not. Thank | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
you. A couple more points. David and then at the back. Ajmal, always | :13:06. | :13:16. | |
wanting to take part, but we have two more good ones coming up. About | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
cultural issues, when you look at Islam, every part of the world you | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
look at, you have Muslims in all part of the world, including white | :13:26. | :13:32. | |
English. It is about the culture. Islam is opposed to supersede | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
culture. If you go to Africa, Gambia, Senegal, you see Muslims | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
openly practising witchcraft and voodoo which violate Islam and then | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
you go to Pakistan and you see people who practice on a killing and | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
stuff. But that is not Islamic. We Muslims here are struggling to fight | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
and explain to our co-workers and friends that these are not Islamic. | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
They are cultural issues. Every point that has been made here, Islam | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
is not the problem. It is Muslims misrepresenting Islam. | :14:08. | :14:15. | |
I have got a list of people who want to talk. That point leads us quite | :14:16. | :14:24. | |
nicely onto this because we are talking about specific cultural | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
influences and how that influences how people practice a religion and | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
it muddies the water. Look at countries like Iran and Turkey, they | :14:35. | :14:42. | |
used to be secular, not in the irreligious sense, but secular | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
countries where women used to go about, they did not have to cover | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
their faces, many people find it obscene and dehumanising, they were | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
very different societies from how they are now. Turkey, led by a man | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
who is a creationist, he thinks all creatures were created just as they | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
appear now on the earth, clamping down on human rights. What went | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
wrong? To be honest, I am personally tired of this dichotomy of culture | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
versus authentic interpretation. We have been talking about this for the | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
last ten minutes. Almost every single contribute talked about the | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
importance and significance of culture and the ways in which our | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
cultural particularities determine our interpretive strategies but not | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
its single person talked about the importance of the political | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
structure. I do not think the Muslim world right now requires a | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
theological revolution. The Muslim world requires political reform. | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
Some of the ideas you are talking about, we may waste many weeks | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
talking about narrative, this is the correct interpretation, that is an | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
incorrect interpretation, but it is irrelevant. The question we need to | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
ask is why in 2017 some of the ideas that the vast majority of Muslims | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
regard as problematic, why they managed to find political agency? | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
Why do they manage to be effective? What paved the way for them to | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
become transformative politically? It is not about competing | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
perspectives. It is not about competing interpretations. It is | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
about the prevailing political structure which unfortunately | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
unleashed these ideas. I compare it with anti-Semitism in Europe. It | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
unfortunately has been part and parcel of European history for a | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
very long time. But you have seen different manifestations of | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
anti-Semitism in different historical phases. Europe did not | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
all of a sudden become more anti-Semitic in the 30s when we saw | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
the atrocities of the horror Holocaust. -- the Holocaust will | :16:58. | :17:05. | |
stop it was a political problem. Political institutionalisation of | :17:06. | :17:07. | |
it. It set the stage for the atrocities. That is what is | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
happening right now. Political distortions. This is completely | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
ignored and we waste our time about it being a wrong interpretation and | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
correct, and we are not paying attention actually to the cause of | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
the problem and we are obsessively only looking at the symptoms. | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
APPLAUSE Excellent point. Christopher, your | :17:33. | :17:40. | |
book sounds fascinating. You have not paid me to say that. The author | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
of The Islamic Enlightenment. When we look back, we see great | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
scientists, we saw great scientists in Islam 1000 years ago who predated | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
Darwin's fairy of evolution. It was called by Charles Draper at the | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
time, the Mohammed theory. -- theory of evolution. Fantastic geometric | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
art and actual art representation of people and of animals which is | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
frowned on now. The great mathematicians. Is this question | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
legitimate? What went wrong? It is a question that comes up again and | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
again, it is a legitimate question and I agree that we have to look at | :18:27. | :18:34. | |
the political and historical reasons behind it and we should not obsess | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
over what the Koran says. For the individual believer, that is | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
important, but in the grander scheme of things, history is what counts | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
will stop history tells us that not only 1000 years ago in Baghdad and | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
Persia and across the Middle East, there was a great efflorescence, | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
upsurge, of knowledge, and the contribution made by Islamic | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
cultures to human knowledge, not Islamic knowledge, it is beyond | :19:03. | :19:04. | |
question. The other thing that the great black hole is in our | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
historical understanding comes in the 19th century and early 20th | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
which is when modern ideas entered the Middle East and wired to an | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
extraordinary extent absorbed and taken on board -- were too. We have | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
discussed slavery this morning, it disappeared within a matter of | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
decades in the Middle East. The venerable old Islamic institution | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
effectively disappeared. The segregation of men and women ... | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
1964, slavery disappeared in Saudi Arabia. That is an aberration and | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
Saudi Arabia did not exist in the time I am talking about. The | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
advances in the 19th century in the Middle East were immense. There were | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
two revolutions, both of which, no one knows about them in the West, a | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
revolution in Turkey and in Iran, they brought in parliamentary | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
systems of government, before the First World War, the first Turkish | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
constitution, 1876. What went wrong? To my mind, a lot of what went wrong | :20:11. | :20:19. | |
is in instead -- is external stimulus. The Brits invaded Egypt, a | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
very nasty revolution going on which would have meant the British control | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
and British influence over Egypt would have been greatly reduced. In | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
1914, it came to a head with the First World War which obliterated | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
the region physically. We do not talk about the number of dead in the | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
Middle East in the First World War, but it was absolutely extraordinary. | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
It left behind famine and the complete obliteration of borders. | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
After that, Britain and France carved up part of the region and the | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
other part of the region, in order to avoid being swallowed up Colonial | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
league, it found these very strong secularising regime is... -- | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
Colonial leaf. Can I borrow this down as a jumping point? There has | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
been based of the cetacean and because of the external geopolitical | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
influences, the Islamic world has stopped generating and is merely | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
reacting? Would that be fair? I think the default mould of catch-up | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
and how we react to things entry from the West has taken over. -- | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
mode. There was a strong sense that what comes in from the West does not | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
necessarily mean it is Western or anti-testicle to Islamic culture, it | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
is perfectly possible it is the human heritage of humankind -- | :21:40. | :21:51. | |
antithetical. It was much easier to advocate Darwinism at the turn of | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
the 20th century in Cairo than it is today. Something has seriously gone | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
wrong. I agree. But I think we need to look to our 20th century for the | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
reasons and they are mostly political. How interesting. | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
APPLAUSE Which country, Salma, you nodding | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
through that, which country do you believe, Muslim majority country, | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
which shows Islam at its best in the world? That is a really difficult | :22:22. | :22:30. | |
one. I do not think that there is an Islamic State and nor do I think | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
there should be an Islamic State. There are countries where people | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
happen to be majority Muslim. If you were to ask me the same question, | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
for example, which is the best Christian country? There might be | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
majority Christian countries, but I would not necessarily think like | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
that. You can say which country is the best secular country, you can | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
easily say that. The most religiously tolerant. That places | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
like Indonesia which are the most populous Muslim countries but most | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
people would think of Saudi Arabia. The politics, it is countries like | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
Saudi Arabia who are propped up by our country and by the US and they | :23:12. | :23:19. | |
actually do export violent extremist interpretations of religion. That | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
has been used as a political way to control their own population as well | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
as legitimising their existence. There is a dangerous mix of politics | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
and theology in countries like Saudi Arabia which I totally accept and I | :23:35. | :23:42. | |
am totally opposed to. Which... In Bosnia, majority Muslim country, in | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
Europe, people lived side-by-side with their Christian neighbours. | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
This has been going on for five centuries, 500 years, native | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
people... Slobodan Milosevic. He carried out a Christian crusade but | :23:59. | :24:06. | |
even now we should say, we should not blame Christianity. There was a | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
genocide of Muslims in the heart of Europe. These are important | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
political issues. Palestine and Israel, land or resource, people use | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
the excuse of identity politics in the guise of religion to carry out | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
those atrocities. A last question and a quick thought and answer, | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
which is the best country in the world today to be a Muslim? I would | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
say the UK. There we are. APPLAUSE | :24:33. | :24:42. | |
England or Scotland or Wales. If you have something to say about that | :24:43. | :24:43. | |
debate, log ... to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
and follow the link to where you can join in the discussion online | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
or contribute on Twitter. We're also debating live this | :24:51. | :24:52. | |
morning from Heartlands Academy in Birmingham - | :24:53. | :24:54. | |
have we all been here before? So get tweeting or emailing on those | :24:55. | :24:56. | |
topics now or send us any other ideas or thoughts you may | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
have about the show. Friday was the Great Night of Shiva, | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
or Maha Shivaratri, commemorating when the Hindu god Shiva | :25:05. | :25:13. | |
is believed to have saved It's a festival dedicated | :25:14. | :25:15. | |
to overcoming darkness and ignorance But it's also a moment when Hindus | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
believe their worship of Lord Shiva might help them attain moksha, | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
their release from reincarnation, the eternal cycle | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
of death and rebirth. Not to this school, we haven't! | :25:30. | :25:42. | |
Seriously, Suraj, George Harrison would have been 74 this week and he | :25:43. | :25:50. | |
was a devout follower of Krishna and in one of his songs, keep me free | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
from birth, is that the ultimate aim, to stop the cycle of | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
reincarnation? I think it is important to look at it from the | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
Hindu angle because people's interpretation of Hinduism or their | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
recognition of it is that it is reincarnation and we have hundreds | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
of gods and thousands of gods, it is a very mature religion in the sense | :26:15. | :26:21. | |
that we have monotheism, people of non-religion, people who do... It is | :26:22. | :26:28. | |
a broad church. That is entirely the wrong term! What is universal is | :26:29. | :26:36. | |
they believe in the end of the knowledge and they all have their | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
interpretation, reincarnation is central and the theme is that we are | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
spiritual beings on a material existence and in that sense, it | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
chimes across all of the major religions. Have you been here | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
before? We have. The purpose is to end the cycle of birth and death by | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
getting moksha. We have been here before from the Hindu angle, we have | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
been around and around through different beings. Do you have any | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
sense of the beings? I read that maybe you fell out with Krishna. | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
Tell me about that, that sense you have of why you are here. | :27:14. | :27:22. | |
Personally, I followed the Harry Krishna movement. I am on earth, I | :27:23. | :27:30. | |
am not with Krishna, where I should be, which is a translation... Why | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
are you not with him? Because I wanted my own independence and free | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
will and I was granted that by God out of his kindness and I have come | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
here now to come out of the cycle of rebirth and re-death. The importance | :27:48. | :27:56. | |
is on the human body. Reincarnation again, people have interpretation it | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
is just human reincarnations. Spiritual being is eternal. The | :28:02. | :28:08. | |
dinosaurs were here for 170 million years on our planet. When there were | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
no people here, why dinosaurs being reincarnated as dinosaurs? What was | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
going on then? It is a very complex issue and essentially that is the | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
theory of evolution... Believe you me, the dinosaurs were here and | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
there were no people. Before there were people, what happened? We can | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
only go back 5000 years because Hinduism has been around 5000 years. | :28:39. | :28:48. | |
They do have everything written, it means the end of knowledge and we | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
have all of the information. We have added to the knowledge. We have. We | :28:53. | :28:58. | |
have information on pregnancy and things like that. You have looked | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
into this, what do you think of it? I wanted to say two things. There is | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
no reference to reincarnation. People, when they die, there are | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
various interpretations of where they go in these beautiful poems, in | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
some of them, your eyes go to the sun, your breath goes to the wind | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
and you disperse. Basically, when you die, you followed the first man | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
to die who then went to this heaven where it was very pleasant and there | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
were lovely trees and music and water running. The greatest God, | :29:38. | :29:46. | |
they ruled the heavens. Subsequently, the death poems about | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
what happens at death, how you cremate or there is a very beautiful | :29:53. | :30:01. | |
burial hymn. There is no reference to health. There is a deep dark hole | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
where you get sent. Is this a cultural... We have to move on. Is | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
it a cultural belief? It grew historically, this idea. People | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
thought, if we are going to live on the Earth, we will die again, | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
re-death. We had a whole lot of changes occurring in the tradition | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
and the development of very strong mystical traditions. | :30:31. | :30:38. | |
David, you are past life regression therapist. You were an Irish boy who | :30:39. | :30:49. | |
drowned on a boat on the way to Atlantic. That was one of my lives. | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
And you were a smuggler in Devon. How did this come out? I went into a | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
regression and I explored what happened will stop the smuggler was | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
one where people feared me. I was part of a gang in the West Country | :31:06. | :31:16. | |
in England. People feared me. You have still got the beard! It is | :31:17. | :31:24. | |
interesting. Maybe you are here as a reaction to that, as part of your | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
learning process. What made you realise that they feared you or made | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
you think that? During the regression I was aware of myself | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
sneering at people around me a lot. I was aware of how they behaved. | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
Eventually I was captured by soldiers and I was eventually | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
killed. In another life, I was a general in a Persian army, where I | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
was one of those going over the top first personalities. I inspired | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
people and empowered people. When was this? Probably over 1000 years | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
ago. I didn't follow the dates. I don't particularly because my motive | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
is for therapy. You know roughly when. Excuse me. A general in the | :32:12. | :32:20. | |
Persian army. We offer here I was Cleopatra, I was an Egyptian slave | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
girl, the French revolution is popular. But you were a boy on a | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
boat drowning. A normal, common person. Most regressions are normal, | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
common things, where there is a particular issue they are working | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
on. Alison, come in on this from the humanist society. Your thoughts? | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
This is a very real experience. For David it is a very real experience | :32:49. | :32:56. | |
and Pussy Riot Sam as well. -- and for surround some aren't... Those | :32:57. | :33:07. | |
images are incredibly real for these people. If you can picture your | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
front door, you can beat it imperfect reality. It isn't there in | :33:11. | :33:18. | |
front of you. -- you can picture it in perfect reality. The human brain | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
is very powerful. I can see why these people think these experiences | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
are very real but I would argue that they are not. There is no evidence. | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
There is evidence? Yes. I want to hear from the audience in a minute. | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
University of the junior has done field cases for 50 years. This is | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
peer reviewed scientific evidence? Going round the world talking to | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
children who have spontaneous recall of what appears to be past life, and | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
they verify the details. Children talk about their other mummies, the | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
house they lived in, whatever, they goes and they check it. This is | :34:01. | :34:09. | |
revolutionary stuff. With science and mounting evidence, there would | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
be a possibility of a Nobel Prize because it would change all of our | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
thinking. The gentleman there. Let's get some more thoughts on this about | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
whether we have been here before. Good morning. Let's take an example, | :34:22. | :34:37. | |
as humans, we can bite everyone. A snake can only bike two people but | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
humans can bike in such a way that we destroy the whole body. -- bite. | :34:42. | :34:49. | |
We have the intensity of lots and lots of animals inside us. As | :34:50. | :34:59. | |
humans, we tend to bark as dogs. That person is bad, all that stuff. | :35:00. | :35:12. | |
And how shall I say? Without meditating in. 'S name, we are like | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
the snake, biting other people. This life is an amalgamation of loads and | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
loads of lives. I have got you. The accumulation of knowledge. The lady | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
in the blue shirt? Do you think we have been here before? No, I don't | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
think so. There is a reason why we associate reincarnation with | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
religion. With religion, we need to believe in something. And I think | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
believing that we can come back and we have been here before gives us a | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
purpose, a justification for some actions. It might be memories, it | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
might be dreams, something we are thinking about, but we haven't been | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
here before. Almost wishful thinking. Justifying our actions, | :35:55. | :36:04. | |
justifying our memories, but I don't think it is anything greater. Bishop | :36:05. | :36:13. | |
David, good morning. The thing is sometimes people speak in different | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
accents and different voices and even different languages. What is | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
going on? The Christian viewpoint generally speaking, and the Islamic | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
and the Jewish one, is that we are here in this life, we sort out our | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
future in this life, our spirit leads to a future life, not a | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
comeback. From my experience of people doing this, there is a | :36:39. | :36:41. | |
psychological effect but we would say there is a spiritual deception. | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
That is a demonic lie, where spirits are speaking to their spirits. That | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
is where you get spiritualism from. Even though they speak in these | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
languages, it doesn't mean it is genuine. It is the devil's work. If | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
you want to see it like that. But there is evidence. How can you | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
explain that a child who barely talks is talking about their other | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
mummy and you can check it out? It is called the imagination. But when | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
there are facts that check it out it is more than imagination. I am very | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
open minded. I accept that there are aspects of life that we don't yet | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
have scientific understanding. But I don't believe in reincarnation or | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
past life regression and I don't believe there is any scientific | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
evidence bases. There is no credible, corroborated scientific | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
evidence to say that reincarnation or past life regression exists. Is | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
there any evidence at all? There is very interesting work done with | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
children, especially people like Stevenson who did a lot of work with | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
children in India particularly, who remembered other families, and they | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
have actually met each other. There is a certain amount of evidence of | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
that sort. The other thing we haven't touched on in this | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
discussion is the ethical thing. This has been described as the | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
world's most logical way of looking at the problem of suffering. | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
Absolutely logical. If you behave in a certain way, then you are going to | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
have to pay back. There is an automatic cause and effect system, | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
just as if you put your hand in a hot stove, you will get burned. I | :38:30. | :38:37. | |
think it is a very logical thing. One woman told me that the reason | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
she had had polio and was lame was because she had done something wrong | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
in a previous life and a mystical person told exactly what it was. | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
That got Glenn Hoddle the sacked as England manager when he tried to | :38:51. | :38:58. | |
articulate that. That was seen as terribly shocking at the time, | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
blaming things on a previous life. Do we get another chance in hell? | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
You have worked in therapy, haven't you? I am a psychotherapist. For me, | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
what is interesting is a belief system that helps you to be more | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
conscientious and conscious of what you do and don't do in this life... | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
If you feel there will be a consequence, and it is not just | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
about the number of years that you are here. Yes, as a Muslim, I | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
believe in an afterlife and I am not going to look to science to justify | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
that. There are some things that are not measurable and they are unseen. | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
Things described in the Bible, the Koran, other religious scripture is, | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
there is a leap of faith involved. And we have a choice in that. We | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
have a choice to believe and not to believe. The test is whether it | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
makes you a better human being, not whether you believe in God or not. | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
If you believe we are here not just to serve ourselves but for the | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
people. It makes society better. Yes. And if you believe in that, all | :40:00. | :40:08. | |
power to you, good. And if you have a desire to be in heaven or a desire | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
to be reborn in a better state, my only issue with the idea of | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
reincarnation is the victim blaming element. If you are poor, disabled, | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
suffering... Because you don't have a memory of what you did, so how can | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
you learn? I agree with you in terms of bringing about a better society. | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
But when you look at it in terms of reincarnation, it is not the end | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
goal. We need to look at the purpose of reincarnation. It is to break out | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
of the cycle of life and death. We don't want another life. We want to | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
go back to God and achieve self-realisation. It is about being | :40:49. | :40:50. | |
better people and being compassionate to other people. If we | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
are not creating more compassionate society is then we failing. I really | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
respect that. Where it is constructive, fantastic. | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
Unfortunately ideas like this can be used to justify institutionalised | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
hierarchies. Every religion can. Yes, that is why it is important to | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
unpack that and contextualise it. The caste system, it is not | :41:15. | :41:25. | |
referenced in any Hindu, any Hindu scripture, it is like comparing the | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
idea of a gently to crusades and Islam and terrorism. The caste | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
system has no justification in any of our texts. Thank you very much. | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
You can join in all this morning's debates by logging | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and following the link | :41:43. | :41:43. | |
Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq. | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
Tell us what you think about our last big question too. | :41:48. | :41:49. | |
And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
We're in Newcastle-upon-Tyne next week, Canterbury on March 12th, | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
On Tuesday, a heterosexual couple lost the latest | :41:58. | :42:05. | |
round in their battle with the courts to be allowed | :42:06. | :42:07. | |
Rebecca Steinfeld and Charles Keidan said they wanted to formalise | :42:08. | :42:14. | |
their relationship in a social institution "which is modern, | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
which is symmetrical and that focuses on equality, | :42:18. | :42:19. | |
which is exactly what a civil partnership is". | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
They're now taking their case to the Supreme Court. | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
But is marriage still the patriarchal institution it once was? | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
Or is marriage today what you make it? | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
Peter, what is your problem with this? Well, right from the get go... | :42:35. | :42:44. | |
I have asked him that many times! When the Labour government in 2003 | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
proposed civil partnerships for same-sex couples, it was to block | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
the growing demand for same-sex marriage. It was to buy off the LGBT | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
community but I stood with my colleagues from the Outrage group, | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
the LGBT campaign group, against the prohibition of opposite sex civil | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
partnerships. From the beginning, we said if there are going to be civil | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
partnerships, they have got to be open to everyone. And in those days, | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
ironically, it was only a gay organisation that stood for equal | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
civil partnerships and we have been fighting that cause ever since. I am | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
so glad that this latest court judgment narrowly lost. It came very | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
close to winning. All the judges accept that it was discrimination | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
and it was not sustainable. The government has got to end this | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
discrimination in the near future. I am just sad that the majority was | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
two to one against rather than in favour. Since gay people can get | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
married, why not end civil partnerships for gay people? Have | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
the full shilling. Why not? Because there are some gay and straight | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
people who don't like the institution of marriage. Why not? | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
Some people feel it has a sexist, patriarchal history. They think that | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
civil partnerships are more modern, egalitarian, more suited to the | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
modern age. Whether you agree with them or not, I think people should | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
have the right to make that choice. If civil partnerships exist, as a | :44:13. | :44:14. | |
democratic principle of all being equal before the law, they should be | :44:15. | :44:15. | |
open to everyone, I think. Marriage itself, as a humanist | :44:16. | :44:31. | |
celebrant, it is what you make it. It is not off-the-shelf, it is | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
tailor-made. Made to suit you. Yes. I think I would want to answer the | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
question to say yes and no. The no part of it is very much in line with | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
what Peter has been talking about, the patriarchy of the history of | :44:46. | :44:53. | |
marriage, barnacles on human relationships, it emerged | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
historically under conditions where the subjugation of part of the | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
population, broadly women, was brought about by broadly men. Women | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
became like chattels to be owned by another human being. The answer, is | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
marriage what you make it, in relation to that aspect of the | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
definition of marriage, definitely the answer is no, you cannot make it | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
what you want to make it because it is an institution. If we take | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
marriage in the common-sense understanding of human beings | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
choosing to make a relationship with each other, to bond with each other, | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
the answer is most definitely, yes, marriage is what you make it. All of | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
those antiquated laws have been thrown out of the window. Even with | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
a formal religious marriage, you are to each other what you want to be to | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
each other. No, I don't think so. It is not free for you to choose. No. | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
We are living with each other by consent, civil partnership which is | :45:53. | :46:01. | |
a legality, secular wedding which is a foul and faith which is a | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
covenant. The whole of the concept of our law, even today, and the | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
marriage act, it is marriage is only marriage where there is consummation | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
of sexual intercourse between two and so the civil partnership | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
actually excludes that because... Marriage can be about cherishing | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
each other, mutual comfort, it does not have to be about six. The law of | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
the land, you're not married if you cannot consummate the marriage if | :46:28. | :46:39. | |
there are no sexual relations, the marriage can be annulled. You cannot | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
say there are just four aspects to marriage. Bonding between human | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
beings, committing publicly in front of your community, friends family, | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
it goes back way beyond any religion. In the Bible, he went in | :46:52. | :47:01. | |
and knew her, had intercourse. That was the marriage. I want to talk | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
about briefly if I can talking about marriage before it was a social and | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
state contract, looking at it in terms of the human species. This | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
business of humans relating to each other, striving and yearning for the | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
best possible human relationships they can build, witnessed by public | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
community, their families, it goes back, there is evidence for it in | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
prehistory, those types of ceremonies, those rituals, they are | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
very deep. They make covenants with each other, not just illegal | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
agreement, you get the car and I get the television. They make them. | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
Isn't marriage legitimate if there has never been sexual relations? | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
Under British law, no. Under biblical law... Compassion comes in, | :47:48. | :47:54. | |
two disabled people, compassion comes in. Compassion? You say, you | :47:55. | :48:02. | |
do not fulfil the law. The law is marriage must be consummated. I am | :48:03. | :48:10. | |
on about the law. You have a disabled couple who cannot | :48:11. | :48:12. | |
physically consummate their marriage, you out of compassion with | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
a...? Why does the compassion fail when it is a same-sex couple? Your | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
faith will tell you if you can do that. Same-sex people cannot | :48:24. | :48:30. | |
consummate a marriage. Neither can two disabled people. Why is it | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
different? Ajmal Masroor, are there certain obligations within an | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
Islamic marriage, clearly defined roles? Daesh it is defined by a | :48:41. | :48:48. | |
partnership between man and woman, consensually, of course, partnership | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
in the sense of partners of two equals, to create a safe space for | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
people to grow, emotionally, spiritually, most of us concentrate | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
on physically and the other two are missed out. Creating a space where | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
love and compassion and mercy can flourish. It is a space where you | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
can be reflective. You can be who you want to be. You make the | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
marriage work or fail. People fail marriages because they do not invest | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
time. There is this amazing idea that marriage will be completely | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
formed in the heavens and dropped on your lap. Do you believe in falling | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
in love? Of course. You may not fall in love. Full out of love? You may | :49:26. | :49:32. | |
not be in love and be married. It is not all about love. Is it better to | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
have a few relationships before you get married? Is that fornication? In | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
Islam, you're not allowed to have sexual relations outside of | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
marriage. You should get married to settle down and start a family. The | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
most important principle is that it creates a safe space in which | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
tranquillity, peace, happiness and partnership can grow, children can | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
grow, the future progeny can grow, but more importantly, in marriage, | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
where we fail is we do not communicate well, we do not evaluate | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
our marriage well and we do not look at one another, we look at what we | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
need rather than what we want to offer. Speak for yourself! One of | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
the most important thing is young people fail, they want, me, me, me. | :50:19. | :50:28. | |
The selfish culture is destroying marriage. Marriage is about | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
spiritual connection between two people. Love is not material, it is | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
not tangible. If you cannot spiritually connect, there is a | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
problem. Love should grow with time. What does spiritually connect mean? | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
Can you quantify love for me? It is spiritual. I love my wife every day, | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
more. Some days I may feel rotten and I don't love anybody. I'm | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
allowed to do that. There is also a false dichotomy within our own | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
understanding of marriage and that is you marry to take -- you married | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
to stay together for ever. Rolling contract, every ten years. Maybe, | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
you should renew it. Would you like to renew yours? I don't know. Yes! | :51:10. | :51:17. | |
What are you saying? You can indeed do that. With humanist ceremonies, | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
you can organise to renew your vows. You can make a choice to say, I want | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
now to have a public ceremony with friends and family where we come | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
together at the end of ten years and we renew... I have been to a couple | :51:32. | :51:38. | |
of those and it is sometimes a bit of a sticking plaster. Let us renew | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
our vows. Very shortly after that, am I speaking out of turn? I am | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
sorry if those friends are watching the programme this morning! We say | :51:49. | :51:57. | |
that in our discipline, every seven years, ask your husband or wife, how | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
are we doing? Can we do things better? If you do not talk and you | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
get stagnant, you are made for disaster and misery. Going back to | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
what you said, in Islam, husband and wife are not equal. They are. In | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
Muslim societies, maybe they are not. Are you like that at home? Very | :52:20. | :52:28. | |
happy with my wife! If you have a falling out with your wife, you can | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
admonish her, stop having sexual relations with her, beat her. A wife | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
is not allowed to beat her husband. They treat the wife as if she is in | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
the area and as though she is a child. You admonish a child if they | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
have done something wrong. Rather than advocating a healthy adult | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
discussion, if you are having some kind of disagreement, they advocate | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
violence. Not only that, they also say... Back to the first debate, the | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
cultural reasons, you are only allowed to hit your wife with a | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
toothpick. There is a very clear... Bus in the Koran that says, it is a | :53:08. | :53:16. | |
metaphor, garment is a metaphor for partnership, not fights. -- there is | :53:17. | :53:24. | |
a very clear verse. The lady there. A couple of points. First, I find it | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
really hard but we cannot get behind the idea that we can progress from | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
something. Marriage is a patriarchal institution. I do not understand why | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
in a day that we are striving towards equality of all | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
descriptions, between men and women, between different sexualities, | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
different religions, different skin colours, all of that, why can't we | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
understand that marriage can progress? It can be a more equal | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
institution. Personally, I do not necessarily feel that marriage would | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
be anything other than equal. I certainly do not subscribe to the | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
patriarchal institution. The other point I want to make is that in | :54:08. | :54:15. | |
terms of disabled people being able to be married but not apparently | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
able to consummate, in legality, there are lots of different things | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
that come to mean some sort of sexual practice. Lots of different | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
things mean consummation? Not just one particular... It is all about | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
legally and spiritually. We not condemning. You may say the law is | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
an as. What is the definition of consummation? Penetrating six. That | :54:41. | :54:47. | |
is what it is under the law. Can I suggest we might think about | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
starting all over again? For those who want marriage or civil | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
partnerships... The first debate, you mean? | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
LAUGHTER Do the whole show again? The Daily | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
Politics... Start again. Wipe the slate clean. For those who are happy | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
with marriage and civil partnerships, fine, but they are the | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
same model, marriage by a different name. Let us start again with a new | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
framework. I would say that there should be an alternative to marriage | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
and civil partnerships for those who want it, namely that a person cannot | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
make any significant other in their life as next of kin or beneficiary | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
and it might be a partner, but if they are single, it might be a | :55:34. | :55:40. | |
lifelong best friend. Packs dodge? No. -- tax dodge. When it comes to | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
loving relationships, people should be able to pick and mix from a menu | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
of rights and responsible at ease to make a partnership agreement | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
tailor-made to their needs. That is to try to take into account that | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
nowadays people live in many different types of relationships. | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
Some partners live together, some think paying independence, some have | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
kids, some do not. Let people make their tailor-made partnership | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
agreements and if they have to go through a check list point by point, | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
I think they would think more seriously about their obligations | :56:16. | :56:17. | |
and commitments. APPLAUSE | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
Blue jumper, hello. I would like to ask, when somebody proposes to get | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
married in a church, the Anglican Church, the Methodist Church or the | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
Quakers, where I have come from, they have to have a discussion with | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
the Minister or vector, I really do find it hard to understand what type | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
of discussion they might have to have before they get married. -- | :56:43. | :56:54. | |
Victor. We do a nine week preparation course, talking about | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
sexuality, covenants... Sexuality is none of your business? It is. I am | :57:00. | :57:06. | |
very good at it. I don't doubt it, David. Sexuality is part of our | :57:07. | :57:13. | |
spirituality, if you do not hold it in your spirituality, it is secular. | :57:14. | :57:20. | |
It is not. Do you want to come in here, Salma? Defer to your learned | :57:21. | :57:27. | |
colleague. I have been through marriage and divorce and it was not | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
an easy thing to do. I believe in love. I believe in commitment. I am | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
a mum. It was the most difficult thing I have been through, I would | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
say. Reflecting on it, for me, marriage yes, it is about what to | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
people make it and what goes on in your house, but the real test is | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
what happens when things do not work, what rights are you left with? | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
That is why it is important about how we as a society do it. I think | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
the UK is fantastic for that. At least if you have a registered | :58:04. | :58:11. | |
marriage, your rights are clear. No one party gets discriminated against | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
and it reflects an Islamic approach. As a woman, I can enter the contract | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
with whatever condition I want to put. It is not about you have to be | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
this or that. But if someone does not adhere to that, what happens? If | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
someone is abusive? That is why it as a society is important to have | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
rules. We have to leave it there. Thank you for your participation. We | :58:37. | :58:43. | |
must leave each other there. Debates continue on Twitter. Next week we | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
are in Newcastle upon Tyne. See you then. | :58:50. | :58:52. |