Episode 7 The Big Questions


Episode 7

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Today on The Big Questions: cyber warfare from Russia; arming

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Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.

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Today we're live from Leith Academy in Edinburgh.

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Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

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On Tuesday, the Queen opened the new National Cyber

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Over the last three months, 188 attacks have seen "significant

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losses of personal data, significant intrusions

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by hostile state actors, and significant reconnaissance

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against critical national infrastructure", the centre's

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And he picked out Russian cyber attacks on "critical

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national industries and political and democratic processes

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Is Russian cyber warfare undermining the West?

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Giles, how much of a threat is President Putin's Russian to us?

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It's like the bad old days of the Cold War. It's very familiar, those

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of us who have seen what's happening in the past, very familiar process.

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Different leadership in the country but all these years later, many

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things happening today that have been happening before. What are they

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trying to do, what is their aim? The real aim of the Russian state is to

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increase its own prestige to its own people, to the rest of the world and

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the power that it exerts over its neighbours. In order to do that it

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wants to make sure that any potential opposition abroad is

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negated, that they manage to get governments and individuals in power

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who they favour and part of the reasons why they are trolling for

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information and these sorts of things is because I think they are

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looking for compromising material and various other things which

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Ulster and then their position. Dr Tara McCormack, international cyber

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relations expert at Leicester University, we have a gangster state

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trying to undermine our liberal values and western democracy? No, in

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a nutshell, the accusations boiled down to the argument that Russia is

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trying to interfere in the democratic process of the United

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States of America by putting in power, as my colleague has said,

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favourable... But that's not true. Clinton lost the election fair and

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square. Before the e-mails were released, opinion polls showed

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Donald Trump is a serious contender. At the American media been doing its

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job, it would have been saying, how is it possible that the Democratic

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candidate is so unpopular that this crazy man is a serious contender?

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It's a blame game? Absolutely. In Europe, the ADF in Germany has

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gained votes because of Angela Merkel's policies. And some bought

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from President Putin? The problems in Europe, Marine Le Pen... Kurt

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fielders, the National front, they are not gaining votes because of

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anything Russia is doing. They are gaining votes there and square

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because of problems within those countries and I would like to point

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out, social, political, economic problems we know about. Marine Le

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Pen is an interesting example, the political machine is financed by

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Moscow friendly banks, supposedly loans, 3 million euros, whether

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that's adding bullets or not it's adding to their political efficiency

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is a party because they are a party which supports the removal of

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sanctions against Russia. To me it's a no-brainer, whether it's impact on

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other they are attempting to change the way that the French people are

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going to vote. Whether they are successful is not the issue. I be a

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threat? I will tell you what is the threat. It is claiming our political

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problems on Russia. That is the real threat...

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APPLAUSE It entirely lets our democratic

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elite of the hook because they can say, not us, it's Russia. And I

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think this is crucial, it delegitimise us every person in

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America who voted for Donald Trump, basically being told and simply

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confirming what he said, they are being told, your vote wasn't a vote

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against the political establishment... Into diversionary

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tactic? Ben Nimmo, isn't there a case of its the Reds under the bed

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again? New bogeyman. The Bond villain with a laptop. You need to

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be curve for the bad and let's be clear. We are not talking about

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Russia as a country, it is a huge, diverse and welcoming country, but

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as a government, it's illegally invaded and annexed Crimea, it's

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followed an undeclared war in Ukraine, it provided the weapon

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which shot down the Malaysia Airlines MH 370, it was involved in

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the hacking of the Democratic National Convention... And a plot to

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murder the President of Montenegro, in the paper today? I saw it in the

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papers but have no background. There is a pattern of disruptive

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behaviour, on top of that, in much bigger issue for the democracy as a

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whole, I would think it is an information crisis, we are seeing

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more disinformation from more people on more channels than at any time in

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human history. Part of that is fed by the Russian government and the

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Russian propaganda machine, a great part is not an thing you look at

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propaganda you need to think, is the problem the lie that is being sold

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or is that the people who are believing it and spreading it, and

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genuinely think they are doing the right thing? If they believe they

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are spreading a story which is true, they are doing for anybody does in

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dialogue, the problem is the source, if people have a grievance and they

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believe that lie because it matches the grievance, you have got to

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address the grievance, not the light. Confirmation bias?

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Absolutely. Look at the grievance. A couple of you want to speak. We were

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talking about the weapon that shop down the Malaysia Airlines, that and

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a couple of things made you raise... We have a lot of allegations. Is

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that just an allegation? I'm afraid it is and that is a problem. Yes, it

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is, and when we talk about the hacking or the fishing exercise that

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got protesters e-mails,... Just an allegation? If you read industry

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reports on that that was traced to a cosy Berrer hacking group. That is

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not the case. Those are still allegations. Propaganda? Even if

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that is so, there is a problem in terms of political positions that we

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disagree with our being friend is propaganda. Russia today, it's not

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hiding, it's called Russia today... We have the man from Sputnik news to

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talk to! These are political positions. Different angles,

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perceptions. Political argument. Nikolai Gorshkov, I want to bring

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him in, editor of Sputnik news. We hear about this, elections coming

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up, trying to undermine the opponents of Marine Le Pen and

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undermining the opponent of Kurt fielders, anything that will

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ultimately put a politician in place will be antenatal and anti EU. If I

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may say so provocatively, your puppet masters, they bombed table

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of? When I say the moral road as North Korea, the leader there, his

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half-brother killed this week... Assassinations. We are journalists,

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we are a newsagency and we are given an opportunity to see other angles,

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more context, background. On the website, for example, we worked just

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like any other media, we are part of the media set up, we may be

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newcomers to the scene but the Masters? No, why should anyone be a

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puppet master? It is demeaning the people of the world, of any country,

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assuming you can actually influence their opinion to such an extent that

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they would vote against their own best interests. So, it's not the

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case. Undermining, talking about undermining governments, bubbly one

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of the best examples of undermining the government was the so-called

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event in 1924, a letter purportedly written by the leader of the

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Communist International, urging British Communists and labour to

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work against... You are going back a bit. It brought down the Labour

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Government. Alex, you are looking cynical. In a second, Giles has come

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straight in to say something. I am an historian, I know the story of

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that letter and I know for a fact the Labour Government was doomed

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before the letter came out. Can we bring it into the present? I also

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know, but you see, the lies that come out now, these are the lies,

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this story is continually being retold. That letter was so accurate

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that actually, the Communist Party headquarters reprimanded the people

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in Moscow for actually writing a letter like that. What we actually

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have to realise is that lies from the past and present are repeated so

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many times as my more modern colleagues will agree and as a

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result of that, people just believe them, they move on and they add up.

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That was the Soviet modus operandi and we see a lot of reflection is

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now in what's happening. Alex, what do you say to our friend? The notion

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that Sputnik in Russia today are another news organisation, you can

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understand why they want you to believe that but it isn't true, its

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foundational charter exists to propagate the interests and point of

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view of the Russian state. It's an instrument... Where does it say so?

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In your foundation charter. What we see, it works, it spreads rumours,

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it suggests Russia today and Sputnik they suggest the independence

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referendum in Scotland in 2014 was rigged, no evidence to support this

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whatsoever but it's a way of undermining the legitimacy of

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western institutions. What you also get and you see it from useful

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idiots, some of them in this room today, there is no truth, different

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opinions. Everything is a point of view and we can't really be sure, we

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are certainly no better than them, we can't make any value judgments.

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This is how the Russian media operation works because it's done in

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a way to devalue the very concept of truth itself and thereby devaluing

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the concept... That phrase useful idiots is right from the height of

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the 1930s, people who went to Stalinist Russia and all they got

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was the smell of fresh paint because they were taken to various places.

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Who are the useful idiots in Mr Newall? There is one here. I'm

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afraid that reveals... No evidence of wrongdoing by Russia. Absolutely

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not. I'm afraid... They didn't shoot down a Malaysian airline, it's just

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scaremongering. Absolutely not. My point is...

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APPLAUSE Would anyone in the audience like

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to... Just one second, I will be with you. Good morning. How are you

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doing? I am good, thank you. Demonstrated quite clearly there

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were fake news agencies said up by Russia and America to influence the

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American election. That is not the case. You maybe have to concede the

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American electorate were radicalised by the state rubber gander. That's

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absolutely not the case. Can I jumping? What is the founding

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document? If the presidential decree signed by President Putin on the 9th

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of December 2013, your parent company, it says in paragraph four

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that the purpose of this newsagency is to communicate the state policy

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the Russian Federation abroad. OK? Compare that with the BBC charter

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which says the purpose of the BBC is to be independent and impartial.

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Then look at your reporting. Good example, second ever break last, I

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do this all the time, Donald Tusk presents his proposals for how to

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keep Britain in the EU, the vote league campaign issues a press

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release on it, there are main campaign issues a press release,

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Reuters in their reporting quoted both press releases, Sputnik courted

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the leave press release and not remain press release. Look at the

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coverage over the last two weeks, last week the BBC did a feature on

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Sputnik and the allegations that it was a propaganda outlet which quoted

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you saying that we are not. That is balanced journalism. Is the BBC

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blame us? No. Let me finish. Selective reporting? I am being

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devils advocate. OK. The BBC quoted the allegations against Sputnik and

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the response, the week before, Sputnik France ran a feature on

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allegations of propaganda and bias by the French media in favour of

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Emmanuel Micron, only one person was quoted in that story, a political

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opponent of his who was accusing French journalists of going to a

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Moscow rally and putting on his T-shirts. No French journalist was

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interviewed in that... And if I may say, it said on Sputnik that he was

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backed by a cold, very rich gay lobby. , phobic as well? I think

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that was a French parliamentarian. A quote. You make coverage of any

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issue over the time, nit-picking, individual reports. Look at it all

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the time. And then you will see there is Allen and with Brexit, we

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had a radio programme coming out of here from Edinburgh. And it was

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given enough time to all sides of the argument. This is the new Cold

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War. Coming back on Brecht -- Brexit, editorials referred to the

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EU as a crumbling edifice, relentlessly pummelling member

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states, undermining democracy and workers' rights. That was Sputnik's

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editorials in the month before Brexit. Not one but many. How much

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of a threat through cyber warfare is Vladimir Putin's Russia? If you look

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in terms of hacking secrets, that is happening on all sides. If British

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intelligence is not trying to get Russia's secrets, what are they

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playing at? They are not doing their job. Western powers have constantly

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intervened in other elections. Whether it is backing a military

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coup in Chile or otherwise. Interference happens. Did it

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influence the American election? The one big accusation is leaking

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Democratic Party e-mails. It was true that the Democratic party

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establishment was gaming the nomination process to make sure

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Hillary Clinton won. That is anti-democratic as far as I am

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concerned. I am not concerned about e-mails. We are all at it, this is

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Rob's point. Is there moral equivalence? Not at all. Because

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when we bombed Libya it is good? When you have Russia today putting

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out a programme that even they had to take off which was talking about

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TM death squads dismembering children in Ukrainian villages. --

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Kiev death squads. That the Ukrainians had taken that the oldest

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to commit genocide. This is dangerous propaganda and as far as

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moral equivalence is concerned, there are two grades on which we

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should look at any country, the amount of foreign development aid

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they give and the corruption index. Those are very clear. If you're

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going to talk about development aid that is given, this is not arms aid,

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the US gives 30 billion a year. In this country we give 10 billion a

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year. Then go on with corruption index. The international corruption

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index, generally recognised, 176 countries. All the way down, ten is

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the UK and Germany. 18 is the United States. 130, below Pakistan, that is

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Russia. It is early days for capitalism there! It fell into the

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hands of the gangsters. Let me ask you this. Look how many refugees

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Russia takes. I want to explore, with Naomi, the human rights

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situation with Amnesty International. We are talking about

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a country that has sponsored State doping, the lakes we have seen since

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China and East Germany. It has just decriminalised domestic violence.

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How bad is the human rights record? It is very bad. Amnesty produces an

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annual report which looks at the human rights violations of every

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country in the world. Certainly, in Russia they are IQs courts -- a huge

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cause for concern. The persecution of journalists within Russia are

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terrible, any dissent. And their involvement in Syria, propping up a

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regime that looks like it has been involved in war crimes. When it

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reported on the murder of prisoners, Russia was saying it was fake news.

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All these dark arts is being used to dismiss without any kind of evidence

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is real, credible reports of human rights abuses happening around the

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world including in Syria. We hear references as too, what is the

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evidence? The human rights observers that claim to have extensive

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networks, but what are these contacts? How do they contact them?

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The landlines are working perfectly well in Syria, they can contact

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anybody? Who are these people and what is the credibility of them? A

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lot of those accusations and allegations are untrue. If there is

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a war situation, crimes are being committed, they are being

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investigated as well. Everybody makes mistakes. It is a civil war

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with foreign interference. A lot of claim and counterclaim is

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unsupported by evidence and what we are asking for is evidence. We've

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been supporting people who chopped limbs off. There are no good actors

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in Syria, but what you have is the classic example of the way that

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Russia's propaganda outlets work. There is no such thing as the truth.

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You cannot know what is going on and anyone in the West who tells you

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what is going on is lying to you. It is a way of undermining the very

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concept of truth. You call yourself a journalist. You are not a

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journalist. Your organisation is not a journalistic outlet. It is a

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propaganda front 20 -- propaganda front to put forward the opinions of

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the Russian regime. It is a disgrace and journalists who stand up to it

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have the unfortunate habit of ending up dead. You raise the very good

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point. Where is the moral outrage about the fact that we support and

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arm Al-Qaeda groups in Syria? That is not propaganda, that is not

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weapon icing disinformation, that is a fact. It is a moral equivalence

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and it is as cheap as it is lazy. That was absolutely fascinating,

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thank you. You might well logon. We are debating whether police

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should be armed and whether God sees soma -- homosexuality as a sin. Get

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in touch with thoughts about the programme. A new survey published

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this week with the Metropolitan Police force found growing support

:23:20.:23:22.

for the police to carry firearms or teasers. 75% of those questioned

:23:23.:23:28.

wanted all officers to be issued with teasers. But in more than 40%

:23:29.:23:36.

of the incidents in London, the teasers were drawn on black or mixed

:23:37.:23:41.

race people despite their making up less than 16% of the population.

:23:42.:23:51.

Should more police be armed? We were talking in our last debate about the

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cyber threat. We are taking it onto the streets, aren't we? There's a

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lot of danger. I had a phone in on five live. It is terrifying. Who

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would want to be a policeman on the front line? When we talk about this,

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people think about terrorism, it is the trump card. People think about a

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ticking time bomb. It is not the reality of it. Violent crime as

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well. Yes, there are armed response units. There is an over

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representation. Armed response units can only use guns or teasers in very

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specific circumstances. When life or serious injury is at an imminent

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threat. And the risk is that the more police officers have guns or

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teasers, the criteria will be expanded. Those who are most likely

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to campaign for restrictions are armed police themselves. They are

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more regularly deploying these weapons and that feeds into their

:25:33.:25:36.

judgment. They know the scenario is that, and whether they should draw

:25:37.:25:42.

or not. Police on the beat will not have the same kind of training. They

:25:43.:25:46.

will not be deploying in the same kind of weird and their judgment

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will not be as good as specified trade policeman. Unfortunately

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there's quite a of factual inaccuracy in what Naomi has said

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although clearly there needs to be understanding. Were you an armed

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officer? I was, for six years. There needs to be a proper debate in

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relation to black and minority ethnic people. We been having that

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the big four years. Absolutely. The bottom line is my members have to

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deal with these incidents. They are the people running towards danger

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when everyone else is running away and it is absolutely vital that as a

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society, who actually are very supportive of the police service,

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make sure their officers are equipped to deal with what they

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face. In relation to the training issue that Naomi Reyes, saying that

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by deploying more officers with teasers there would be a degradation

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of training, that is absolute nonsense. I don't know why you're

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seeing it is not because we have been saying this should be a greater

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role out of taser. The standards needs to be maintained. The British

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police service has the highest level of training with this of any in the

:27:24.:27:29.

UK. Who are these officers campaigning against that having

:27:30.:27:36.

better protection? Once we talked to, I'm not saying they are

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campaigning but they know the actual tactical situation on the ground.

:27:41.:27:50.

Teasers are torture equipment. We cannot all go out and buy one. Why

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are you laughing? I find it extraordinary. We need to look at

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the reality. It is what they face on a daily basis. The question is

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whether we need more armed police officers and I think the argument at

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the moment is that we do. Is the terror threat something to do with

:28:22.:28:27.

it? If you look at the terror threat, it is likely we will face

:28:28.:28:35.

some of the atrocities. Can you think of an atrocity we've had in

:28:36.:28:39.

this country over the last 20 years that if there had been an armed

:28:40.:28:43.

response unit closer at hand, lives would have been saved? You could

:28:44.:28:50.

pick on a number of incidents, the very real one was Derek Bird, one

:28:51.:28:57.

man, one shot gun in Cumbria. That would be a situation. Not terrorism.

:28:58.:29:05.

The public have to understand that at this moment in time we are facing

:29:06.:29:11.

a terrible threat to our country and that is, I was giving an interview

:29:12.:29:22.

about the terrible situations in Paris and here we are, everybody

:29:23.:29:25.

within the police service and a lot of the public recognise we need are

:29:26.:29:30.

pleased to be able to do their job. At the moment we got 3% of our

:29:31.:29:36.

police officers trained up to carry firearms. In Scotland it is even

:29:37.:29:44.

less. And it was said they don't need any further roll-out in

:29:45.:29:46.

Scotland because it will not actually a the threat -- not address

:29:47.:29:56.

the threat of terrorism. It seems to me the question is, how do you deal

:29:57.:30:04.

with conflict? We try to engage with the issues of conflict rather than

:30:05.:30:08.

the reaction. I struggled to find any circumstance in which adding

:30:09.:30:13.

weapons to a place of conflict improves the situation. What it will

:30:14.:30:16.

do is put more officers in a situation where they are asking the

:30:17.:30:21.

question, do I use my weapon as opposed to how do I deal with a

:30:22.:30:27.

situation? Split second. The thing about the gun, not the person they

:30:28.:30:30.

communicate with, the example you gave was not a threat to the country

:30:31.:30:35.

it was sadly ill health situation and as a consequence...

:30:36.:30:42.

The reality is somewhat different and I will give that reality check

:30:43.:30:48.

now. In England and Wales, certainly the last 12 months, police have

:30:49.:30:53.

attended around 14,000 armed incidents and have only ever drawn

:30:54.:31:00.

and used their weapons on zero they are not trigger-happy, when we face

:31:01.:31:05.

a serious threat, Lee Rigby, in London, it took armed officers 15

:31:06.:31:13.

minutes to get there and look elsewhere, the way the terrorists

:31:14.:31:17.

are evolving, the last attack was in a rural area, if that happens in

:31:18.:31:21.

England and Wales or Scotland and it is not in one of the big

:31:22.:31:24.

conurbations what do the public expect police to do? You're talking

:31:25.:31:29.

about more armed response teams, people sitting around most of the

:31:30.:31:32.

time twiddling their thumbs hopefully, but they can get to the

:31:33.:31:38.

Isle of Skye quickly. Can I come back? In a second, a gentle man had

:31:39.:31:43.

his hand up, any other points... We should put more trust in the police.

:31:44.:31:49.

If they say they need more armed officers, it's a highly skilled

:31:50.:31:50.

job... APPLAUSE

:31:51.:31:53.

We should trust them. At the back, hello. Good morning, I take a

:31:54.:31:59.

pragmatic view on this, when I was a volunteer at the Commonwealth Games,

:32:00.:32:04.

we had armed police officers regularly on duty, two of them and

:32:05.:32:07.

when I first saw the guns I was scared but as time went on I felt

:32:08.:32:10.

more reassured because adult protected. In terms of everyday

:32:11.:32:15.

policing I would not in favour of regular armed police but in major

:32:16.:32:18.

situations like the Commonwealth Games or any other major event, I

:32:19.:32:22.

think it's the sensible thing to have armed police on the beat.

:32:23.:32:26.

APPLAUSE Thanks for your fantastic

:32:27.:32:29.

volunteering work in that amazing Commonwealth Games, you did an

:32:30.:32:32.

amazing job. We are used to it. Our friend says we are used to it, we

:32:33.:32:38.

see it in the House of Commons, add airports, the Scottish Parliament,

:32:39.:32:43.

Alex Massie, what is the problem? A significant difference between that

:32:44.:32:45.

kind of policing and those adventurer talking about and the

:32:46.:32:49.

routine arming of the bobby on the beat. The lack of firearms in

:32:50.:32:54.

British police has almost been the defining feature of British policing

:32:55.:32:58.

for 200 years and I think changing that now for no real good reason,

:32:59.:33:02.

certainly not on the bike at any evidence that it is necessary, would

:33:03.:33:08.

be an extremely unfortunate and retrograde move. It would say

:33:09.:33:10.

something rather troubling about our society and the relationship between

:33:11.:33:14.

the citizen and the police force and that's something that is actually

:33:15.:33:18.

quite important. I think this applies to not just firearms with

:33:19.:33:23.

police but also the use of tasers, if you aren't the police as a

:33:24.:33:26.

routine matter, you will encourage the escalation of force... A kind of

:33:27.:33:33.

answers? And people will die. Don't worry. Don't worry, I know it's

:33:34.:33:39.

frustrating. I am looking forward to hearing it, I got the auctioneers

:33:40.:33:45.

nod from them. I wanted to throw into question, you talked about the

:33:46.:33:49.

quality of training and the quality of the best in the world, how are

:33:50.:33:53.

you going to maintain the quality if you are massively increasing the

:33:54.:33:56.

quantity? Something we see Thai and and again. Let Steve on that. --

:33:57.:34:03.

time and again. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, look at

:34:04.:34:06.

the regime, make sure it's maintained, it's a stance we have

:34:07.:34:11.

insured has been maintained and we recognise that. We are not in the

:34:12.:34:16.

realm of getting a taser out of the cupboard, saying to someone do

:34:17.:34:20.

that... But I must come back with a couple of comments in relation to

:34:21.:34:24.

Alex. He talks about arming the bobby on the beat and we are not

:34:25.:34:27.

talking about that at all. The service doesn't want it, the public

:34:28.:34:31.

doesn't want it and I don't want to see it, I want to see a bobby on the

:34:32.:34:37.

beat, I don't know where he's been. We've lost 22,000 police officers,

:34:38.:34:40.

there aren't officers on the beat, what you have or officers who have

:34:41.:34:45.

to respond from one job to the next to the next and when they respond,

:34:46.:34:50.

because there is no resilience in the service, they need to have

:34:51.:34:54.

tactical options to deal with... Norway, gone in the car? Whether it

:34:55.:34:59.

be a gun in the car or a taser in the car, tactical options and the

:35:00.:35:03.

understanding of what you will be faced with, it's ridiculous sending

:35:04.:35:07.

the scarce resource of a police officer without the options to deal

:35:08.:35:10.

with that. It's all very well turning up and saying that guy has a

:35:11.:35:14.

knife, I need to colonise specialist team but I will keep him chatting,

:35:15.:35:19.

it doesn't work like that. Three questions, one about authority

:35:20.:35:22.

versus consent, having someone wandering around, routinely being

:35:23.:35:27.

able to pull a gun on you, means the relationship changes between the

:35:28.:35:30.

police force and the people they are policing. Secondly, does it make us

:35:31.:35:35.

safer? For every benefit we might get in terms of being able to arrest

:35:36.:35:41.

an individual who is also armed, there is the threat of the arms

:35:42.:35:46.

race, criminals will routinely armed themselves knowing that they are

:35:47.:35:49.

going to face armed officers. Does it make us feel safer? Mike... The

:35:50.:35:58.

third thing, does it make us feel safer and I am sorry, I'm interested

:35:59.:36:02.

in the comments about the Commonwealth Games, when I go to a

:36:03.:36:05.

major airport and they see police with machine guns I don't feel

:36:06.:36:07.

safer. APPLAUSE

:36:08.:36:13.

The last thing I would want a police officer to do is start using it in a

:36:14.:36:16.

crowded place. The reality is the threat that our men and women in the

:36:17.:36:21.

police face, first and foremost, those officers carry firearms in

:36:22.:36:26.

this country and I've alluded to the fact there isn't many of them, they

:36:27.:36:30.

are all volunteers. We are looking to increase the officers carrying

:36:31.:36:34.

firearms are about 1000... Here's the thing, tasers, why is it that

:36:35.:36:41.

black and minority ethnic people are disproportionately targeted, why is

:36:42.:36:45.

that? It depends on where you look from, look in London, I've worked

:36:46.:36:49.

there, and I've worked in rural North Yorkshire. The figures are

:36:50.:36:53.

stark. You can compare different figures but that's polluting the

:36:54.:36:58.

point which is we have got to go back, our country is facing the

:36:59.:37:01.

greatest threat since the Second World War, are we in the police

:37:02.:37:07.

service able to deal with that threat? If a terrorist starts

:37:08.:37:11.

walking down the street and don't say it won't happen, the

:37:12.:37:14.

intelligence is there to say it is men and women are telling us we

:37:15.:37:17.

would really, really struggled to cope and then... Would you have shot

:37:18.:37:23.

the killers of Lee Rigby? Use the police officers, Lee Rigby, they

:37:24.:37:27.

turned up, they were waiting, it took 15 minutes to get there, the

:37:28.:37:30.

terrorists were waiting, the police did what they do to stop them, like

:37:31.:37:35.

any other police service in the world, they rendered first aid and

:37:36.:37:38.

saved their lives, you won't see that anywhere else in the world. The

:37:39.:37:44.

point about black and ethnic minority people, that's polluting

:37:45.:37:47.

the point... It isn't at all, it grows goes to the issue and the crux

:37:48.:37:55.

of trust. Every black and ethnic minority male friend of mine has, or

:37:56.:38:00.

a close black friend of theirs has, the levels of trust in different

:38:01.:38:05.

communities is very different. And what you will see, is an escalation

:38:06.:38:09.

of grievance and potential harm happening. With something like Lee

:38:10.:38:14.

Rigby, it was an atrocious murder, he was dead before police arrived,

:38:15.:38:19.

including non-armed police. The murders hacked him to death and then

:38:20.:38:22.

asked passers-by to phone the police for them. That's the thing with

:38:23.:38:28.

these incidents, them having guns or tasers wouldn't have stop that from

:38:29.:38:35.

happening,... No, they didn't... The passers by to whom they were

:38:36.:38:38.

speaking, we didn't know their situation. They were talking to

:38:39.:38:44.

them, trying to talk those murderers down which actually stopped anyone

:38:45.:38:49.

else being harmed. Hello. The question about the black and

:38:50.:38:52.

minority ethnic people, it never seems to get answered, it happens in

:38:53.:38:55.

England, eventually it will arrive in Scotland but no want seems... The

:38:56.:38:59.

question is there all the time but no one comes up with answers. What

:39:00.:39:07.

is your answer? What... I don't have an answer, I am asking the question.

:39:08.:39:10.

Every statistic that comes out, they are getting stunned with a taser,

:39:11.:39:17.

whatever happens in England will take 5-10 years to eventually

:39:18.:39:20.

arrived in Scotland and we can see it happening here, something and

:39:21.:39:27.

someone needs to stop asking the questions and answers.

:39:28.:39:31.

APPLAUSE We are going to leave it there. An

:39:32.:39:34.

excellent point on which to leave it. Thank you somewhat.

:39:35.:39:39.

You can join in all this morning's debates by logging

:39:40.:39:41.

on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and following the link

:39:42.:39:44.

Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.

:39:45.:39:47.

Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too -

:39:48.:39:50.

And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you

:39:51.:39:55.

We're in Birmingham next week, Newcastle upon Tyne on March 5th

:39:56.:39:59.

Over ten series of The Big Questions we have returned time and time again

:40:00.:40:11.

The first is whether women should be consecrated as bishops.

:40:12.:40:16.

This has now been resolved as a yes in the Church of England,

:40:17.:40:19.

despite the scriptural reservations of many of its members and clergy.

:40:20.:40:23.

The second is how the Churches of England and Scotland should deal

:40:24.:40:26.

with gays and lesbians who are called to the ministry,

:40:27.:40:30.

especially whether they should be allowed to enter the holy state

:40:31.:40:32.

of matrimony with someone of the same sex.

:40:33.:40:36.

On this, the answer has been a firm no in both churches.

:40:37.:40:40.

They may become civil partners with their beloveds

:40:41.:40:42.

And in the Church of England they may not have

:40:43.:40:46.

And neither shall gay or lesbian members of their congregations

:40:47.:40:50.

be allowed to marry in the sight of God.

:40:51.:40:53.

This week a report to the Church of England General Synod

:40:54.:40:57.

by a committee of bishops on gay marriage recommended continuing

:40:58.:41:05.

don't tell' strategy over the sex life of its vicars and curates

:41:06.:41:08.

Everybody saw this as a shallow compromise that would fool

:41:09.:41:12.

What a story you have, Jamie, you are a gay evangelical stop

:41:13.:41:29.

absolutely. What is it, and oxymoron, a contradiction in terms?

:41:30.:41:33.

What is going on? Many people don't believe that evangelical people

:41:34.:41:37.

believe that the Bible is clear that homosexuality is not a sin. The

:41:38.:41:42.

Bible is clear. The Bible is perfectly clear that God is love and

:41:43.:41:47.

where God is, there is love and when we see two people...

:41:48.:41:50.

APPLAUSE When we see two people who love each

:41:51.:41:53.

other and want to commit to each other and want to have a

:41:54.:41:56.

relationship which is blessed before God, before their friends and

:41:57.:42:00.

family, that is something to be celebrated. I believe we can see the

:42:01.:42:03.

fruit of that, the couples I know who are in these permanent and I

:42:04.:42:09.

hope one day I will be two, relationships, bear such joy and

:42:10.:42:12.

happiness and peace, all the fruits of the Spirit and I believe... What

:42:13.:42:18.

about fidelity? As opposed to the gender but, I think so much in this

:42:19.:42:21.

debate has been about sex, it's been about promiscuity or lost, but it

:42:22.:42:27.

should be about love. But that is what the Bible is extraordinary here

:42:28.:42:32.

on and we need to celebrate that. APPLAUSE

:42:33.:42:39.

David. What a story you have got! You were a gay activist in Sydney,

:42:40.:42:45.

one of the great, vibrant, exciting, yet cities in the world, lucky

:42:46.:42:48.

enough to have been there, amazing place. And you went to a pub in

:42:49.:42:54.

Jesus spoke to you. Before I start, I want to say that God loves... We

:42:55.:42:59.

will get onto that. I want to hear your story. What happened? As a

:43:00.:43:04.

14-year-old I thought I was disqualified from the love of God

:43:05.:43:08.

because I was a homosexual and I am here to see that as a blue didn't

:43:09.:43:11.

like, God loves and accepts every single person but he doesn't a firm

:43:12.:43:18.

everything in us. As well as beloved children made in his image. I was in

:43:19.:43:24.

the pub, I had been a gay rights activist, involved in Mardi Gras,

:43:25.:43:27.

involved in things that university and I met this person in the pub and

:43:28.:43:32.

they asked me, have you experienced the love of God? I thought, I

:43:33.:43:37.

thought it was all a Bible concept thing, there wasn't a real God who

:43:38.:43:41.

loves me. And so this person prayed for me, I have the most incredible

:43:42.:43:45.

experience of gods presence, like the Holy Spirit coming upon me and I

:43:46.:43:49.

never experienced anything like this in my life, it turned my life upside

:43:50.:43:54.

down. You felt the holy spread all over you? Yes, it turned by life

:43:55.:43:59.

upside down, honestly, I was an atheist, I didn't believe in God.

:44:00.:44:04.

Did you hear the voice of God, almost? I heard an internal voice in

:44:05.:44:08.

my mind, my spirit, that said do you want me and I said yes. What

:44:09.:44:13.

happened in France? In France? I had a moment, I felt God asked me, will

:44:14.:44:21.

you give me your homosexuality? And I said, Lord, you died on the cross

:44:22.:44:25.

for me, that's the real love we are talking about, the love of Jesus

:44:26.:44:31.

Christ on the cross, first self sacrificial and then romantic, I

:44:32.:44:34.

said, Lord, you can have anything you want, you can have my money,

:44:35.:44:39.

material things... Sacrifice, like a non-or a priest? Obee Dean is,

:44:40.:44:48.

sacrifice... Are you still gay? Same-sex attracted, I still feel

:44:49.:44:52.

part of the gay community but often people like me, we are a minority

:44:53.:44:56.

within a minority and our rights aren't being represented in the

:44:57.:44:59.

Church and its quite sad for people like me, we face an incredible

:45:00.:45:03.

pressure on us from both sides and I am here to represent thousands and

:45:04.:45:07.

thousands of people I've met that are like me. Wouldn't you rather,

:45:08.:45:12.

like Jane, be able to see in the script, and approval of your love

:45:13.:45:16.

and you wouldn't be conflicted? I can't change scripture but in the

:45:17.:45:17.

Church of England, There is the crux. We read Scripture

:45:18.:45:32.

differently. I had a very similar experience to you and I heard God

:45:33.:45:37.

say how much he loves me and how much I am there to respond but we

:45:38.:45:40.

see Scripture differently and the church needs to be big enough to

:45:41.:45:44.

embrace both of us. I respectfully that you do not believe you want to

:45:45.:45:49.

enter into a committed lifelong sexual relationship but I believe

:45:50.:46:01.

God is calling me to that. We see Scripture differently. The truth is

:46:02.:46:06.

we won't know until we get to heaven, but I say, look at it. With

:46:07.:46:15.

Scripture, a lot of people talk about Leviticus, what are you

:46:16.:46:26.

citing? I believe where God is love, and love is God. I can give you a

:46:27.:46:30.

lot of Scripture but it will not be very exciting. Ultimately, look at

:46:31.:46:35.

the fruit. When I tried to live like David I ended up in hospital

:46:36.:46:42.

fighting for my life. I deeply empathise. I think we have a very

:46:43.:46:48.

similar experience and I think Jesus is in our lives but there are things

:46:49.:46:53.

in our faith we are processing. We are coming to a place of

:46:54.:46:56.

reconciliation and the really damaging thing is legalism, when

:46:57.:47:03.

they don't know the grace and love of God but they only know law. There

:47:04.:47:08.

is this idea of living under a law and trying to scrape up this ladder.

:47:09.:47:13.

That is not the Christian gospel. It is that you believed by faith in

:47:14.:47:18.

Christ, it is a free gift and through that you're transformed to

:47:19.:47:21.

live a life of obedience and love with God and I came to a point where

:47:22.:47:26.

I wanted to give him myself and I am not judging, that is not my place.

:47:27.:47:31.

You cannot have a partner in life and sheer things. I don't need that.

:47:32.:47:36.

I have an amazing community, I live with them and they are wonderful

:47:37.:47:44.

friends of mine. I'm really intrigued by what you say, you've

:47:45.:47:56.

given your sexuality. Does God believe homosexuality is a sin? Yes,

:47:57.:48:04.

God sees the practice of homosexual six as a sin. It grieves him and it

:48:05.:48:12.

angers him because he loves us and he wants us to have something

:48:13.:48:19.

better. Surely he would like us to love each other? We are talking

:48:20.:48:26.

about the issue of six. Jesus came to set us free from our sin. He gave

:48:27.:48:33.

her alive -- gave his life so we could find a new way of life centred

:48:34.:48:41.

in God and I agree, Grace is fundamental to the gospel and what

:48:42.:48:45.

rescues us from sin. Jesus was absolutely clear and the Bible is

:48:46.:48:52.

absolutely clear. The extreme liberals like Jane. Listen to that

:48:53.:49:02.

language, extreme liberals. I apologised to viewers who just had

:49:03.:49:09.

to hear him. God loves us and created us. On Tuesday I had a

:49:10.:49:13.

lunchtime fringe meeting in memory of a young girl who committed

:49:14.:49:17.

suicide because she believed what Jonathan said and she could not

:49:18.:49:23.

accept what she was. These are young Christian youths whose lives are

:49:24.:49:26.

being turned upside down in churches like yours. What is the purpose of

:49:27.:49:35.

six? For children, basically. Jesus made absolutely clear. Not for

:49:36.:49:43.

pleasure? For marriage and marriage is between a man and a woman for

:49:44.:49:51.

life. He said, God made us male and female. God made us male and female

:49:52.:50:02.

so a mother and father should hold fast, become one flesh with the

:50:03.:50:06.

wife. That is where six fits into it. Which is better, a loving

:50:07.:50:12.

relationship between two same-sex people who have commitment and

:50:13.:50:16.

absolutely love each other and find fulfilment through the lives or a

:50:17.:50:26.

loveless marriage? That is a completely false contradiction. Now

:50:27.:50:33.

it is not. I will tell your story. As far as the Bible is concerned,

:50:34.:50:40.

are six references to homosexuality and 3000 references to poverty. If I

:50:41.:50:46.

was using the Bible as my moral order I know what I would spend my

:50:47.:50:52.

time on. I also don't think the idea of God being some guy with a white

:50:53.:50:56.

beard saying something is good and bad is anywhere near anything that

:50:57.:50:59.

could be described as some kind of divinity. You were a minister.

:51:00.:51:08.

Absolutely, but I'm on a journey and it is telling me that the way that

:51:09.:51:14.

we have ordered ourselves is beyond our understanding of individuality,

:51:15.:51:21.

and these things have undermined our ability to do the most fundamental

:51:22.:51:25.

thing, be in love. Yesterday, I was at the funeral of a guide called

:51:26.:51:37.

Gordon Aikman. He had MND, a terrible disease, he's hugely

:51:38.:51:40.

changed our understanding of that and at his funeral his husband stood

:51:41.:51:44.

up and made the most powerful eulogy I've ever heard in my life and I've

:51:45.:51:47.

attended a lot of funerals because I used to be a minister. At that point

:51:48.:51:52.

I understood the idea of love beyond just something that is in our brains

:51:53.:51:56.

and ourselves as individuals. Something outside us, that we can

:51:57.:52:01.

use to motivate ourselves to be the people we want to be. If you tell me

:52:02.:52:06.

that can only happen in one situation, because of a moral order

:52:07.:52:11.

that has been created by a is open to interpretation, I don't

:52:12.:52:14.

particularly want to be part of that. What I want to do is live as I

:52:15.:52:21.

saw Joel and Gordon live, in love and for others. Good morning. We've

:52:22.:52:33.

got this very Victorian idea that we are somehow a brain on a stick. We

:52:34.:52:40.

are bodies as well. We are at this stuff. Does God think homosexuality

:52:41.:52:50.

is a sin? No. Does he think being left-handed is a sin? Being tone

:52:51.:52:55.

deaf is a sin? We exist in this world, we are brains and bodies at

:52:56.:52:58.

the whole part of us engages with our relationship with God. Why did

:52:59.:53:07.

God create gay people? God created people. Why did he create gay

:53:08.:53:11.

people? I don't think it's that simple. I studied theology at

:53:12.:53:16.

Oxford. We are made in the image of God. I think he would himself in the

:53:17.:53:28.

image of Jesus Christ. We must realise human beings are made in his

:53:29.:53:32.

image and we fell. There are certain things that come from the power of

:53:33.:53:36.

sin in our lives and we are born with flesh, it is the nature of sin.

:53:37.:53:43.

I don't see my desire for a partner as sinful but the effect on me of

:53:44.:53:50.

that sinful curse we've inherited is I have a sexual orientation I don't

:53:51.:53:56.

believe is the will of God. It is all to do with sin? It is about

:53:57.:54:05.

worship. My point is God did not just made man and women, he made

:54:06.:54:09.

everything in between. It has scientifically been proven that

:54:10.:54:15.

there are lots of different sexes, a spectrum, God made us all and loves

:54:16.:54:19.

us also that is the physical one. The mental one and the spiritual

:54:20.:54:25.

one, which I don't really understand, is the homosexual side.

:54:26.:54:31.

God just loves us all. It is about two Sauls meeting. That is just the

:54:32.:54:41.

body. Why did God create gay people? He wants to celebrate love. When you

:54:42.:54:46.

say marriage is just for children what about those wonderful couples

:54:47.:54:50.

who cannot have children or who are impotent? The six verses that talk

:54:51.:54:59.

about homosexual acts are about power, about lost between two men

:55:00.:55:05.

who don't desire each other. We need to go back and understand the

:55:06.:55:09.

context, the Greek and Hebrew, but most of all, the narrative and the

:55:10.:55:21.

Gospel. Then we can mirror our desire and the person we want to

:55:22.:55:26.

commit to four life. The Bible is clear that all six outside of

:55:27.:55:33.

marriage. But what does suffer not which to live mean? You're talking

:55:34.:55:42.

about the old covenant. The Bible needs interpretation, certainly.

:55:43.:55:48.

That is what she is doing. The reason that I say Jane is an extreme

:55:49.:55:53.

liberal as this is very new in the life of the church. It has always

:55:54.:55:59.

been clear to the Christian church that six is for marriage. We've had,

:56:00.:56:10.

for the last 50 years, the sexual revolution which has caused enormous

:56:11.:56:11.

damage. There are people who read the Bible,

:56:12.:56:28.

deciding what they want it to say. What does that mean then? Suffer not

:56:29.:56:38.

a witch. Well... There is suffering over this, young people who believe

:56:39.:56:42.

God does not love them or they want to have love, it will drive many of

:56:43.:56:48.

them to self harm. We had a report that said 42% of young people have

:56:49.:56:57.

considered suicide. We need to own up to the horror and the harm we

:56:58.:57:03.

did. We need to look freshly at celebrating who we are. Lady over

:57:04.:57:16.

there. Your hand was up. I struggle with how this has had more of a

:57:17.:57:21.

detrimental impact than the war fought over religion or the poverty.

:57:22.:57:27.

I don't understand why God would be so concerned with what is going on

:57:28.:57:35.

in our bedroom. You do get the impression God is like a tabloid

:57:36.:57:40.

newspaper going on about it all the time. That is not God if you believe

:57:41.:57:54.

in God. It has got a, done. My job now as I work with homeless folk and

:57:55.:58:03.

a significantly large percentage are gay and it is a consequence of the

:58:04.:58:10.

kind of conversations of people saying because of the God I see

:58:11.:58:13.

under way I'd interpret the Bible, you are judged. No matter how much

:58:14.:58:24.

you say I did not mean you, it comes across as, you are bad. They end up

:58:25.:58:29.

not being able to have the conversations they need. Thank you

:58:30.:58:33.

very much, we are going to leave it there. We've run out of time. Next

:58:34.:58:44.

week we are in Burnley. Have a great Sunday, thanks for watching.

:58:45.:58:58.

Donald Trump's first 100 days in the White House

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are defining how he'll deal with the rest of the world.

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