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Today on The Big Questions: cyber warfare from Russia; arming | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. | :00:08. | :00:30. | |
Today we're live from Leith Academy in Edinburgh. | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
On Tuesday, the Queen opened the new National Cyber | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
Over the last three months, 188 attacks have seen "significant | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
losses of personal data, significant intrusions | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
by hostile state actors, and significant reconnaissance | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
against critical national infrastructure", the centre's | :00:58. | :00:58. | |
And he picked out Russian cyber attacks on "critical | :00:59. | :01:06. | |
national industries and political and democratic processes | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
Is Russian cyber warfare undermining the West? | :01:09. | :01:21. | |
Giles, how much of a threat is President Putin's Russian to us? | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
It's like the bad old days of the Cold War. It's very familiar, those | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
of us who have seen what's happening in the past, very familiar process. | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
Different leadership in the country but all these years later, many | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
things happening today that have been happening before. What are they | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
trying to do, what is their aim? The real aim of the Russian state is to | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
increase its own prestige to its own people, to the rest of the world and | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
the power that it exerts over its neighbours. In order to do that it | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
wants to make sure that any potential opposition abroad is | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
negated, that they manage to get governments and individuals in power | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
who they favour and part of the reasons why they are trolling for | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
information and these sorts of things is because I think they are | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
looking for compromising material and various other things which | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
Ulster and then their position. Dr Tara McCormack, international cyber | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
relations expert at Leicester University, we have a gangster state | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
trying to undermine our liberal values and western democracy? No, in | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
a nutshell, the accusations boiled down to the argument that Russia is | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
trying to interfere in the democratic process of the United | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
States of America by putting in power, as my colleague has said, | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
favourable... But that's not true. Clinton lost the election fair and | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
square. Before the e-mails were released, opinion polls showed | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
Donald Trump is a serious contender. At the American media been doing its | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
job, it would have been saying, how is it possible that the Democratic | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
candidate is so unpopular that this crazy man is a serious contender? | :03:17. | :03:24. | |
It's a blame game? Absolutely. In Europe, the ADF in Germany has | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
gained votes because of Angela Merkel's policies. And some bought | :03:29. | :03:37. | |
from President Putin? The problems in Europe, Marine Le Pen... Kurt | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
fielders, the National front, they are not gaining votes because of | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
anything Russia is doing. They are gaining votes there and square | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
because of problems within those countries and I would like to point | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
out, social, political, economic problems we know about. Marine Le | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
Pen is an interesting example, the political machine is financed by | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
Moscow friendly banks, supposedly loans, 3 million euros, whether | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
that's adding bullets or not it's adding to their political efficiency | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
is a party because they are a party which supports the removal of | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
sanctions against Russia. To me it's a no-brainer, whether it's impact on | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
other they are attempting to change the way that the French people are | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
going to vote. Whether they are successful is not the issue. I be a | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
threat? I will tell you what is the threat. It is claiming our political | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
problems on Russia. That is the real threat... | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
APPLAUSE It entirely lets our democratic | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
elite of the hook because they can say, not us, it's Russia. And I | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
think this is crucial, it delegitimise us every person in | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
America who voted for Donald Trump, basically being told and simply | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
confirming what he said, they are being told, your vote wasn't a vote | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
against the political establishment... Into diversionary | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
tactic? Ben Nimmo, isn't there a case of its the Reds under the bed | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
again? New bogeyman. The Bond villain with a laptop. You need to | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
be curve for the bad and let's be clear. We are not talking about | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
Russia as a country, it is a huge, diverse and welcoming country, but | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
as a government, it's illegally invaded and annexed Crimea, it's | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
followed an undeclared war in Ukraine, it provided the weapon | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
which shot down the Malaysia Airlines MH 370, it was involved in | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
the hacking of the Democratic National Convention... And a plot to | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
murder the President of Montenegro, in the paper today? I saw it in the | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
papers but have no background. There is a pattern of disruptive | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
behaviour, on top of that, in much bigger issue for the democracy as a | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
whole, I would think it is an information crisis, we are seeing | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
more disinformation from more people on more channels than at any time in | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
human history. Part of that is fed by the Russian government and the | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
Russian propaganda machine, a great part is not an thing you look at | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
propaganda you need to think, is the problem the lie that is being sold | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
or is that the people who are believing it and spreading it, and | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
genuinely think they are doing the right thing? If they believe they | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
are spreading a story which is true, they are doing for anybody does in | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
dialogue, the problem is the source, if people have a grievance and they | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
believe that lie because it matches the grievance, you have got to | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
address the grievance, not the light. Confirmation bias? | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
Absolutely. Look at the grievance. A couple of you want to speak. We were | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
talking about the weapon that shop down the Malaysia Airlines, that and | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
a couple of things made you raise... We have a lot of allegations. Is | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
that just an allegation? I'm afraid it is and that is a problem. Yes, it | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
is, and when we talk about the hacking or the fishing exercise that | :07:08. | :07:15. | |
got protesters e-mails,... Just an allegation? If you read industry | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
reports on that that was traced to a cosy Berrer hacking group. That is | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
not the case. Those are still allegations. Propaganda? Even if | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
that is so, there is a problem in terms of political positions that we | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
disagree with our being friend is propaganda. Russia today, it's not | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
hiding, it's called Russia today... We have the man from Sputnik news to | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
talk to! These are political positions. Different angles, | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
perceptions. Political argument. Nikolai Gorshkov, I want to bring | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
him in, editor of Sputnik news. We hear about this, elections coming | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
up, trying to undermine the opponents of Marine Le Pen and | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
undermining the opponent of Kurt fielders, anything that will | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
ultimately put a politician in place will be antenatal and anti EU. If I | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
may say so provocatively, your puppet masters, they bombed table | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
of? When I say the moral road as North Korea, the leader there, his | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
half-brother killed this week... Assassinations. We are journalists, | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
we are a newsagency and we are given an opportunity to see other angles, | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
more context, background. On the website, for example, we worked just | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
like any other media, we are part of the media set up, we may be | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
newcomers to the scene but the Masters? No, why should anyone be a | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
puppet master? It is demeaning the people of the world, of any country, | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
assuming you can actually influence their opinion to such an extent that | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
they would vote against their own best interests. So, it's not the | :09:15. | :09:22. | |
case. Undermining, talking about undermining governments, bubbly one | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
of the best examples of undermining the government was the so-called | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
event in 1924, a letter purportedly written by the leader of the | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
Communist International, urging British Communists and labour to | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
work against... You are going back a bit. It brought down the Labour | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
Government. Alex, you are looking cynical. In a second, Giles has come | :09:49. | :09:56. | |
straight in to say something. I am an historian, I know the story of | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
that letter and I know for a fact the Labour Government was doomed | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
before the letter came out. Can we bring it into the present? I also | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
know, but you see, the lies that come out now, these are the lies, | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
this story is continually being retold. That letter was so accurate | :10:13. | :10:20. | |
that actually, the Communist Party headquarters reprimanded the people | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
in Moscow for actually writing a letter like that. What we actually | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
have to realise is that lies from the past and present are repeated so | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
many times as my more modern colleagues will agree and as a | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
result of that, people just believe them, they move on and they add up. | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
That was the Soviet modus operandi and we see a lot of reflection is | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
now in what's happening. Alex, what do you say to our friend? The notion | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
that Sputnik in Russia today are another news organisation, you can | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
understand why they want you to believe that but it isn't true, its | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
foundational charter exists to propagate the interests and point of | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
view of the Russian state. It's an instrument... Where does it say so? | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
In your foundation charter. What we see, it works, it spreads rumours, | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
it suggests Russia today and Sputnik they suggest the independence | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
referendum in Scotland in 2014 was rigged, no evidence to support this | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
whatsoever but it's a way of undermining the legitimacy of | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
western institutions. What you also get and you see it from useful | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
idiots, some of them in this room today, there is no truth, different | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
opinions. Everything is a point of view and we can't really be sure, we | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
are certainly no better than them, we can't make any value judgments. | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
This is how the Russian media operation works because it's done in | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
a way to devalue the very concept of truth itself and thereby devaluing | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
the concept... That phrase useful idiots is right from the height of | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
the 1930s, people who went to Stalinist Russia and all they got | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
was the smell of fresh paint because they were taken to various places. | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
Who are the useful idiots in Mr Newall? There is one here. I'm | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
afraid that reveals... No evidence of wrongdoing by Russia. Absolutely | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
not. I'm afraid... They didn't shoot down a Malaysian airline, it's just | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
scaremongering. Absolutely not. My point is... | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
APPLAUSE Would anyone in the audience like | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
to... Just one second, I will be with you. Good morning. How are you | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
doing? I am good, thank you. Demonstrated quite clearly there | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
were fake news agencies said up by Russia and America to influence the | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
American election. That is not the case. You maybe have to concede the | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
American electorate were radicalised by the state rubber gander. That's | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
absolutely not the case. Can I jumping? What is the founding | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
document? If the presidential decree signed by President Putin on the 9th | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
of December 2013, your parent company, it says in paragraph four | :13:11. | :13:12. | |
that the purpose of this newsagency is to communicate the state policy | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
the Russian Federation abroad. OK? Compare that with the BBC charter | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
which says the purpose of the BBC is to be independent and impartial. | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
Then look at your reporting. Good example, second ever break last, I | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
do this all the time, Donald Tusk presents his proposals for how to | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
keep Britain in the EU, the vote league campaign issues a press | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
release on it, there are main campaign issues a press release, | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
Reuters in their reporting quoted both press releases, Sputnik courted | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
the leave press release and not remain press release. Look at the | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
coverage over the last two weeks, last week the BBC did a feature on | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
Sputnik and the allegations that it was a propaganda outlet which quoted | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
you saying that we are not. That is balanced journalism. Is the BBC | :14:04. | :14:12. | |
blame us? No. Let me finish. Selective reporting? I am being | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
devils advocate. OK. The BBC quoted the allegations against Sputnik and | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
the response, the week before, Sputnik France ran a feature on | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
allegations of propaganda and bias by the French media in favour of | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
Emmanuel Micron, only one person was quoted in that story, a political | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
opponent of his who was accusing French journalists of going to a | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
Moscow rally and putting on his T-shirts. No French journalist was | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
interviewed in that... And if I may say, it said on Sputnik that he was | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
backed by a cold, very rich gay lobby. , phobic as well? I think | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
that was a French parliamentarian. A quote. You make coverage of any | :14:57. | :15:05. | |
issue over the time, nit-picking, individual reports. Look at it all | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
the time. And then you will see there is Allen and with Brexit, we | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
had a radio programme coming out of here from Edinburgh. And it was | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
given enough time to all sides of the argument. This is the new Cold | :15:22. | :15:37. | |
War. Coming back on Brecht -- Brexit, editorials referred to the | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
EU as a crumbling edifice, relentlessly pummelling member | :15:46. | :15:47. | |
states, undermining democracy and workers' rights. That was Sputnik's | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
editorials in the month before Brexit. Not one but many. How much | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
of a threat through cyber warfare is Vladimir Putin's Russia? If you look | :16:00. | :16:07. | |
in terms of hacking secrets, that is happening on all sides. If British | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
intelligence is not trying to get Russia's secrets, what are they | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
playing at? They are not doing their job. Western powers have constantly | :16:16. | :16:25. | |
intervened in other elections. Whether it is backing a military | :16:26. | :16:36. | |
coup in Chile or otherwise. Interference happens. Did it | :16:37. | :16:43. | |
influence the American election? The one big accusation is leaking | :16:44. | :16:53. | |
Democratic Party e-mails. It was true that the Democratic party | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
establishment was gaming the nomination process to make sure | :16:59. | :17:06. | |
Hillary Clinton won. That is anti-democratic as far as I am | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
concerned. I am not concerned about e-mails. We are all at it, this is | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
Rob's point. Is there moral equivalence? Not at all. Because | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
when we bombed Libya it is good? When you have Russia today putting | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
out a programme that even they had to take off which was talking about | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
TM death squads dismembering children in Ukrainian villages. -- | :17:31. | :17:39. | |
Kiev death squads. That the Ukrainians had taken that the oldest | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
to commit genocide. This is dangerous propaganda and as far as | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
moral equivalence is concerned, there are two grades on which we | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
should look at any country, the amount of foreign development aid | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
they give and the corruption index. Those are very clear. If you're | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
going to talk about development aid that is given, this is not arms aid, | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
the US gives 30 billion a year. In this country we give 10 billion a | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
year. Then go on with corruption index. The international corruption | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
index, generally recognised, 176 countries. All the way down, ten is | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
the UK and Germany. 18 is the United States. 130, below Pakistan, that is | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
Russia. It is early days for capitalism there! It fell into the | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
hands of the gangsters. Let me ask you this. Look how many refugees | :18:43. | :18:51. | |
Russia takes. I want to explore, with Naomi, the human rights | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
situation with Amnesty International. We are talking about | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
a country that has sponsored State doping, the lakes we have seen since | :19:03. | :19:13. | |
China and East Germany. It has just decriminalised domestic violence. | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
How bad is the human rights record? It is very bad. Amnesty produces an | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
annual report which looks at the human rights violations of every | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
country in the world. Certainly, in Russia they are IQs courts -- a huge | :19:28. | :19:34. | |
cause for concern. The persecution of journalists within Russia are | :19:35. | :19:43. | |
terrible, any dissent. And their involvement in Syria, propping up a | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
regime that looks like it has been involved in war crimes. When it | :19:48. | :19:56. | |
reported on the murder of prisoners, Russia was saying it was fake news. | :19:57. | :20:06. | |
All these dark arts is being used to dismiss without any kind of evidence | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
is real, credible reports of human rights abuses happening around the | :20:12. | :20:22. | |
world including in Syria. We hear references as too, what is the | :20:23. | :20:29. | |
evidence? The human rights observers that claim to have extensive | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
networks, but what are these contacts? How do they contact them? | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
The landlines are working perfectly well in Syria, they can contact | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
anybody? Who are these people and what is the credibility of them? A | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
lot of those accusations and allegations are untrue. If there is | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
a war situation, crimes are being committed, they are being | :20:58. | :20:59. | |
investigated as well. Everybody makes mistakes. It is a civil war | :21:00. | :21:10. | |
with foreign interference. A lot of claim and counterclaim is | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
unsupported by evidence and what we are asking for is evidence. We've | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
been supporting people who chopped limbs off. There are no good actors | :21:20. | :21:28. | |
in Syria, but what you have is the classic example of the way that | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
Russia's propaganda outlets work. There is no such thing as the truth. | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
You cannot know what is going on and anyone in the West who tells you | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
what is going on is lying to you. It is a way of undermining the very | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
concept of truth. You call yourself a journalist. You are not a | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
journalist. Your organisation is not a journalistic outlet. It is a | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
propaganda front 20 -- propaganda front to put forward the opinions of | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
the Russian regime. It is a disgrace and journalists who stand up to it | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
have the unfortunate habit of ending up dead. You raise the very good | :22:09. | :22:17. | |
point. Where is the moral outrage about the fact that we support and | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
arm Al-Qaeda groups in Syria? That is not propaganda, that is not | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
weapon icing disinformation, that is a fact. It is a moral equivalence | :22:29. | :22:37. | |
and it is as cheap as it is lazy. That was absolutely fascinating, | :22:38. | :22:38. | |
thank you. You might well logon. We are debating whether police | :22:39. | :23:00. | |
should be armed and whether God sees soma -- homosexuality as a sin. Get | :23:01. | :23:08. | |
in touch with thoughts about the programme. A new survey published | :23:09. | :23:19. | |
this week with the Metropolitan Police force found growing support | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
for the police to carry firearms or teasers. 75% of those questioned | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
wanted all officers to be issued with teasers. But in more than 40% | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
of the incidents in London, the teasers were drawn on black or mixed | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
race people despite their making up less than 16% of the population. | :23:42. | :23:51. | |
Should more police be armed? We were talking in our last debate about the | :23:52. | :23:59. | |
cyber threat. We are taking it onto the streets, aren't we? There's a | :24:00. | :24:11. | |
lot of danger. I had a phone in on five live. It is terrifying. Who | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
would want to be a policeman on the front line? When we talk about this, | :24:15. | :24:25. | |
people think about terrorism, it is the trump card. People think about a | :24:26. | :24:33. | |
ticking time bomb. It is not the reality of it. Violent crime as | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
well. Yes, there are armed response units. There is an over | :24:42. | :24:55. | |
representation. Armed response units can only use guns or teasers in very | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
specific circumstances. When life or serious injury is at an imminent | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
threat. And the risk is that the more police officers have guns or | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
teasers, the criteria will be expanded. Those who are most likely | :25:13. | :25:23. | |
to campaign for restrictions are armed police themselves. They are | :25:24. | :25:32. | |
more regularly deploying these weapons and that feeds into their | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
judgment. They know the scenario is that, and whether they should draw | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
or not. Police on the beat will not have the same kind of training. They | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
will not be deploying in the same kind of weird and their judgment | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
will not be as good as specified trade policeman. Unfortunately | :25:54. | :26:03. | |
there's quite a of factual inaccuracy in what Naomi has said | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
although clearly there needs to be understanding. Were you an armed | :26:09. | :26:18. | |
officer? I was, for six years. There needs to be a proper debate in | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
relation to black and minority ethnic people. We been having that | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
the big four years. Absolutely. The bottom line is my members have to | :26:31. | :26:38. | |
deal with these incidents. They are the people running towards danger | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
when everyone else is running away and it is absolutely vital that as a | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
society, who actually are very supportive of the police service, | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
make sure their officers are equipped to deal with what they | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
face. In relation to the training issue that Naomi Reyes, saying that | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
by deploying more officers with teasers there would be a degradation | :26:59. | :27:00. | |
of training, that is absolute nonsense. I don't know why you're | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
seeing it is not because we have been saying this should be a greater | :27:08. | :27:15. | |
role out of taser. The standards needs to be maintained. The British | :27:16. | :27:23. | |
police service has the highest level of training with this of any in the | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
UK. Who are these officers campaigning against that having | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
better protection? Once we talked to, I'm not saying they are | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
campaigning but they know the actual tactical situation on the ground. | :27:41. | :27:50. | |
Teasers are torture equipment. We cannot all go out and buy one. Why | :27:51. | :28:02. | |
are you laughing? I find it extraordinary. We need to look at | :28:03. | :28:10. | |
the reality. It is what they face on a daily basis. The question is | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
whether we need more armed police officers and I think the argument at | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
the moment is that we do. Is the terror threat something to do with | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
it? If you look at the terror threat, it is likely we will face | :28:28. | :28:35. | |
some of the atrocities. Can you think of an atrocity we've had in | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
this country over the last 20 years that if there had been an armed | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
response unit closer at hand, lives would have been saved? You could | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
pick on a number of incidents, the very real one was Derek Bird, one | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
man, one shot gun in Cumbria. That would be a situation. Not terrorism. | :28:58. | :29:05. | |
The public have to understand that at this moment in time we are facing | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
a terrible threat to our country and that is, I was giving an interview | :29:12. | :29:22. | |
about the terrible situations in Paris and here we are, everybody | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
within the police service and a lot of the public recognise we need are | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
pleased to be able to do their job. At the moment we got 3% of our | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
police officers trained up to carry firearms. In Scotland it is even | :29:37. | :29:44. | |
less. And it was said they don't need any further roll-out in | :29:45. | :29:46. | |
Scotland because it will not actually a the threat -- not address | :29:47. | :29:56. | |
the threat of terrorism. It seems to me the question is, how do you deal | :29:57. | :30:04. | |
with conflict? We try to engage with the issues of conflict rather than | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
the reaction. I struggled to find any circumstance in which adding | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
weapons to a place of conflict improves the situation. What it will | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
do is put more officers in a situation where they are asking the | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
question, do I use my weapon as opposed to how do I deal with a | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
situation? Split second. The thing about the gun, not the person they | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
communicate with, the example you gave was not a threat to the country | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
it was sadly ill health situation and as a consequence... | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
The reality is somewhat different and I will give that reality check | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
now. In England and Wales, certainly the last 12 months, police have | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
attended around 14,000 armed incidents and have only ever drawn | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
and used their weapons on zero they are not trigger-happy, when we face | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
a serious threat, Lee Rigby, in London, it took armed officers 15 | :31:06. | :31:13. | |
minutes to get there and look elsewhere, the way the terrorists | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
are evolving, the last attack was in a rural area, if that happens in | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
England and Wales or Scotland and it is not in one of the big | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
conurbations what do the public expect police to do? You're talking | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
about more armed response teams, people sitting around most of the | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
time twiddling their thumbs hopefully, but they can get to the | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
Isle of Skye quickly. Can I come back? In a second, a gentle man had | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
his hand up, any other points... We should put more trust in the police. | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
If they say they need more armed officers, it's a highly skilled | :31:50. | :31:50. | |
job... APPLAUSE | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
We should trust them. At the back, hello. Good morning, I take a | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
pragmatic view on this, when I was a volunteer at the Commonwealth Games, | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
we had armed police officers regularly on duty, two of them and | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
when I first saw the guns I was scared but as time went on I felt | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
more reassured because adult protected. In terms of everyday | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
policing I would not in favour of regular armed police but in major | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
situations like the Commonwealth Games or any other major event, I | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
think it's the sensible thing to have armed police on the beat. | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
APPLAUSE Thanks for your fantastic | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
volunteering work in that amazing Commonwealth Games, you did an | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
amazing job. We are used to it. Our friend says we are used to it, we | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
see it in the House of Commons, add airports, the Scottish Parliament, | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
Alex Massie, what is the problem? A significant difference between that | :32:44. | :32:45. | |
kind of policing and those adventurer talking about and the | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
routine arming of the bobby on the beat. The lack of firearms in | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
British police has almost been the defining feature of British policing | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
for 200 years and I think changing that now for no real good reason, | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
certainly not on the bike at any evidence that it is necessary, would | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
be an extremely unfortunate and retrograde move. It would say | :33:09. | :33:10. | |
something rather troubling about our society and the relationship between | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
the citizen and the police force and that's something that is actually | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
quite important. I think this applies to not just firearms with | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
police but also the use of tasers, if you aren't the police as a | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
routine matter, you will encourage the escalation of force... A kind of | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
answers? And people will die. Don't worry. Don't worry, I know it's | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
frustrating. I am looking forward to hearing it, I got the auctioneers | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
nod from them. I wanted to throw into question, you talked about the | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
quality of training and the quality of the best in the world, how are | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
you going to maintain the quality if you are massively increasing the | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
quantity? Something we see Thai and and again. Let Steve on that. -- | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
time and again. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, look at | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
the regime, make sure it's maintained, it's a stance we have | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
insured has been maintained and we recognise that. We are not in the | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
realm of getting a taser out of the cupboard, saying to someone do | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
that... But I must come back with a couple of comments in relation to | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
Alex. He talks about arming the bobby on the beat and we are not | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
talking about that at all. The service doesn't want it, the public | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
doesn't want it and I don't want to see it, I want to see a bobby on the | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
beat, I don't know where he's been. We've lost 22,000 police officers, | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
there aren't officers on the beat, what you have or officers who have | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
to respond from one job to the next to the next and when they respond, | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
because there is no resilience in the service, they need to have | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
tactical options to deal with... Norway, gone in the car? Whether it | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
be a gun in the car or a taser in the car, tactical options and the | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
understanding of what you will be faced with, it's ridiculous sending | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
the scarce resource of a police officer without the options to deal | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
with that. It's all very well turning up and saying that guy has a | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
knife, I need to colonise specialist team but I will keep him chatting, | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
it doesn't work like that. Three questions, one about authority | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
versus consent, having someone wandering around, routinely being | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
able to pull a gun on you, means the relationship changes between the | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
police force and the people they are policing. Secondly, does it make us | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
safer? For every benefit we might get in terms of being able to arrest | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
an individual who is also armed, there is the threat of the arms | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
race, criminals will routinely armed themselves knowing that they are | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
going to face armed officers. Does it make us feel safer? Mike... The | :35:50. | :35:58. | |
third thing, does it make us feel safer and I am sorry, I'm interested | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
in the comments about the Commonwealth Games, when I go to a | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
major airport and they see police with machine guns I don't feel | :36:06. | :36:07. | |
safer. APPLAUSE | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
The last thing I would want a police officer to do is start using it in a | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
crowded place. The reality is the threat that our men and women in the | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
police face, first and foremost, those officers carry firearms in | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
this country and I've alluded to the fact there isn't many of them, they | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
are all volunteers. We are looking to increase the officers carrying | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
firearms are about 1000... Here's the thing, tasers, why is it that | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
black and minority ethnic people are disproportionately targeted, why is | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
that? It depends on where you look from, look in London, I've worked | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
there, and I've worked in rural North Yorkshire. The figures are | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
stark. You can compare different figures but that's polluting the | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
point which is we have got to go back, our country is facing the | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
greatest threat since the Second World War, are we in the police | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
service able to deal with that threat? If a terrorist starts | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
walking down the street and don't say it won't happen, the | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
intelligence is there to say it is men and women are telling us we | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
would really, really struggled to cope and then... Would you have shot | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
the killers of Lee Rigby? Use the police officers, Lee Rigby, they | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
turned up, they were waiting, it took 15 minutes to get there, the | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
terrorists were waiting, the police did what they do to stop them, like | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
any other police service in the world, they rendered first aid and | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
saved their lives, you won't see that anywhere else in the world. The | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
point about black and ethnic minority people, that's polluting | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
the point... It isn't at all, it grows goes to the issue and the crux | :37:48. | :37:55. | |
of trust. Every black and ethnic minority male friend of mine has, or | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
a close black friend of theirs has, the levels of trust in different | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
communities is very different. And what you will see, is an escalation | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
of grievance and potential harm happening. With something like Lee | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
Rigby, it was an atrocious murder, he was dead before police arrived, | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
including non-armed police. The murders hacked him to death and then | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
asked passers-by to phone the police for them. That's the thing with | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
these incidents, them having guns or tasers wouldn't have stop that from | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
happening,... No, they didn't... The passers by to whom they were | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
speaking, we didn't know their situation. They were talking to | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
them, trying to talk those murderers down which actually stopped anyone | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
else being harmed. Hello. The question about the black and | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
minority ethnic people, it never seems to get answered, it happens in | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
England, eventually it will arrive in Scotland but no want seems... The | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
question is there all the time but no one comes up with answers. What | :39:00. | :39:07. | |
is your answer? What... I don't have an answer, I am asking the question. | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
Every statistic that comes out, they are getting stunned with a taser, | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
whatever happens in England will take 5-10 years to eventually | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
arrived in Scotland and we can see it happening here, something and | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
someone needs to stop asking the questions and answers. | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
APPLAUSE We are going to leave it there. An | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
excellent point on which to leave it. Thank you somewhat. | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
You can join in all this morning's debates by logging | :39:40. | :39:41. | |
on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and following the link | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq. | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
Tell us what you think about our last Big Question too - | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
We're in Birmingham next week, Newcastle upon Tyne on March 5th | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
Over ten series of The Big Questions we have returned time and time again | :40:00. | :40:11. | |
The first is whether women should be consecrated as bishops. | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
This has now been resolved as a yes in the Church of England, | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
despite the scriptural reservations of many of its members and clergy. | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
The second is how the Churches of England and Scotland should deal | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
with gays and lesbians who are called to the ministry, | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
especially whether they should be allowed to enter the holy state | :40:31. | :40:32. | |
of matrimony with someone of the same sex. | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
On this, the answer has been a firm no in both churches. | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
They may become civil partners with their beloveds | :40:41. | :40:42. | |
And in the Church of England they may not have | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
And neither shall gay or lesbian members of their congregations | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
be allowed to marry in the sight of God. | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
This week a report to the Church of England General Synod | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
by a committee of bishops on gay marriage recommended continuing | :40:58. | :41:05. | |
don't tell' strategy over the sex life of its vicars and curates | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
Everybody saw this as a shallow compromise that would fool | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
What a story you have, Jamie, you are a gay evangelical stop | :41:13. | :41:29. | |
absolutely. What is it, and oxymoron, a contradiction in terms? | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
What is going on? Many people don't believe that evangelical people | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
believe that the Bible is clear that homosexuality is not a sin. The | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
Bible is clear. The Bible is perfectly clear that God is love and | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
where God is, there is love and when we see two people... | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
APPLAUSE When we see two people who love each | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
other and want to commit to each other and want to have a | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
relationship which is blessed before God, before their friends and | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
family, that is something to be celebrated. I believe we can see the | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
fruit of that, the couples I know who are in these permanent and I | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
hope one day I will be two, relationships, bear such joy and | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
happiness and peace, all the fruits of the Spirit and I believe... What | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
about fidelity? As opposed to the gender but, I think so much in this | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
debate has been about sex, it's been about promiscuity or lost, but it | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
should be about love. But that is what the Bible is extraordinary here | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
on and we need to celebrate that. APPLAUSE | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
David. What a story you have got! You were a gay activist in Sydney, | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
one of the great, vibrant, exciting, yet cities in the world, lucky | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
enough to have been there, amazing place. And you went to a pub in | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
Jesus spoke to you. Before I start, I want to say that God loves... We | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
will get onto that. I want to hear your story. What happened? As a | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
14-year-old I thought I was disqualified from the love of God | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
because I was a homosexual and I am here to see that as a blue didn't | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
like, God loves and accepts every single person but he doesn't a firm | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
everything in us. As well as beloved children made in his image. I was in | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
the pub, I had been a gay rights activist, involved in Mardi Gras, | :43:25. | :43:27. | |
involved in things that university and I met this person in the pub and | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
they asked me, have you experienced the love of God? I thought, I | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
thought it was all a Bible concept thing, there wasn't a real God who | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
loves me. And so this person prayed for me, I have the most incredible | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
experience of gods presence, like the Holy Spirit coming upon me and I | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
never experienced anything like this in my life, it turned my life upside | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
down. You felt the holy spread all over you? Yes, it turned by life | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
upside down, honestly, I was an atheist, I didn't believe in God. | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
Did you hear the voice of God, almost? I heard an internal voice in | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
my mind, my spirit, that said do you want me and I said yes. What | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
happened in France? In France? I had a moment, I felt God asked me, will | :44:14. | :44:21. | |
you give me your homosexuality? And I said, Lord, you died on the cross | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
for me, that's the real love we are talking about, the love of Jesus | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
Christ on the cross, first self sacrificial and then romantic, I | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
said, Lord, you can have anything you want, you can have my money, | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
material things... Sacrifice, like a non-or a priest? Obee Dean is, | :44:40. | :44:48. | |
sacrifice... Are you still gay? Same-sex attracted, I still feel | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
part of the gay community but often people like me, we are a minority | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
within a minority and our rights aren't being represented in the | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
Church and its quite sad for people like me, we face an incredible | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
pressure on us from both sides and I am here to represent thousands and | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
thousands of people I've met that are like me. Wouldn't you rather, | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
like Jane, be able to see in the script, and approval of your love | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
and you wouldn't be conflicted? I can't change scripture but in the | :45:17. | :45:17. | |
Church of England, There is the crux. We read Scripture | :45:18. | :45:32. | |
differently. I had a very similar experience to you and I heard God | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
say how much he loves me and how much I am there to respond but we | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
see Scripture differently and the church needs to be big enough to | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
embrace both of us. I respectfully that you do not believe you want to | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
enter into a committed lifelong sexual relationship but I believe | :45:50. | :46:01. | |
God is calling me to that. We see Scripture differently. The truth is | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
we won't know until we get to heaven, but I say, look at it. With | :46:07. | :46:15. | |
Scripture, a lot of people talk about Leviticus, what are you | :46:16. | :46:26. | |
citing? I believe where God is love, and love is God. I can give you a | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
lot of Scripture but it will not be very exciting. Ultimately, look at | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
the fruit. When I tried to live like David I ended up in hospital | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
fighting for my life. I deeply empathise. I think we have a very | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
similar experience and I think Jesus is in our lives but there are things | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
in our faith we are processing. We are coming to a place of | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
reconciliation and the really damaging thing is legalism, when | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
they don't know the grace and love of God but they only know law. There | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
is this idea of living under a law and trying to scrape up this ladder. | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
That is not the Christian gospel. It is that you believed by faith in | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
Christ, it is a free gift and through that you're transformed to | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
live a life of obedience and love with God and I came to a point where | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
I wanted to give him myself and I am not judging, that is not my place. | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
You cannot have a partner in life and sheer things. I don't need that. | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
I have an amazing community, I live with them and they are wonderful | :47:37. | :47:44. | |
friends of mine. I'm really intrigued by what you say, you've | :47:45. | :47:56. | |
given your sexuality. Does God believe homosexuality is a sin? Yes, | :47:57. | :48:04. | |
God sees the practice of homosexual six as a sin. It grieves him and it | :48:05. | :48:12. | |
angers him because he loves us and he wants us to have something | :48:13. | :48:19. | |
better. Surely he would like us to love each other? We are talking | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
about the issue of six. Jesus came to set us free from our sin. He gave | :48:27. | :48:33. | |
her alive -- gave his life so we could find a new way of life centred | :48:34. | :48:41. | |
in God and I agree, Grace is fundamental to the gospel and what | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
rescues us from sin. Jesus was absolutely clear and the Bible is | :48:46. | :48:52. | |
absolutely clear. The extreme liberals like Jane. Listen to that | :48:53. | :49:02. | |
language, extreme liberals. I apologised to viewers who just had | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
to hear him. God loves us and created us. On Tuesday I had a | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
lunchtime fringe meeting in memory of a young girl who committed | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
suicide because she believed what Jonathan said and she could not | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
accept what she was. These are young Christian youths whose lives are | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
being turned upside down in churches like yours. What is the purpose of | :49:27. | :49:35. | |
six? For children, basically. Jesus made absolutely clear. Not for | :49:36. | :49:43. | |
pleasure? For marriage and marriage is between a man and a woman for | :49:44. | :49:51. | |
life. He said, God made us male and female. God made us male and female | :49:52. | :50:02. | |
so a mother and father should hold fast, become one flesh with the | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
wife. That is where six fits into it. Which is better, a loving | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
relationship between two same-sex people who have commitment and | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
absolutely love each other and find fulfilment through the lives or a | :50:17. | :50:26. | |
loveless marriage? That is a completely false contradiction. Now | :50:27. | :50:33. | |
it is not. I will tell your story. As far as the Bible is concerned, | :50:34. | :50:40. | |
are six references to homosexuality and 3000 references to poverty. If I | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
was using the Bible as my moral order I know what I would spend my | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
time on. I also don't think the idea of God being some guy with a white | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
beard saying something is good and bad is anywhere near anything that | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
could be described as some kind of divinity. You were a minister. | :51:00. | :51:08. | |
Absolutely, but I'm on a journey and it is telling me that the way that | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
we have ordered ourselves is beyond our understanding of individuality, | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
and these things have undermined our ability to do the most fundamental | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
thing, be in love. Yesterday, I was at the funeral of a guide called | :51:26. | :51:37. | |
Gordon Aikman. He had MND, a terrible disease, he's hugely | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
changed our understanding of that and at his funeral his husband stood | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
up and made the most powerful eulogy I've ever heard in my life and I've | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
attended a lot of funerals because I used to be a minister. At that point | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
I understood the idea of love beyond just something that is in our brains | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
and ourselves as individuals. Something outside us, that we can | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
use to motivate ourselves to be the people we want to be. If you tell me | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
that can only happen in one situation, because of a moral order | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
that has been created by a is open to interpretation, I don't | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
particularly want to be part of that. What I want to do is live as I | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
saw Joel and Gordon live, in love and for others. Good morning. We've | :52:22. | :52:33. | |
got this very Victorian idea that we are somehow a brain on a stick. We | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
are bodies as well. We are at this stuff. Does God think homosexuality | :52:41. | :52:50. | |
is a sin? No. Does he think being left-handed is a sin? Being tone | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
deaf is a sin? We exist in this world, we are brains and bodies at | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
the whole part of us engages with our relationship with God. Why did | :52:59. | :53:07. | |
God create gay people? God created people. Why did he create gay | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
people? I don't think it's that simple. I studied theology at | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
Oxford. We are made in the image of God. I think he would himself in the | :53:17. | :53:28. | |
image of Jesus Christ. We must realise human beings are made in his | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
image and we fell. There are certain things that come from the power of | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
sin in our lives and we are born with flesh, it is the nature of sin. | :53:37. | :53:43. | |
I don't see my desire for a partner as sinful but the effect on me of | :53:44. | :53:50. | |
that sinful curse we've inherited is I have a sexual orientation I don't | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
believe is the will of God. It is all to do with sin? It is about | :53:57. | :54:05. | |
worship. My point is God did not just made man and women, he made | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
everything in between. It has scientifically been proven that | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
there are lots of different sexes, a spectrum, God made us all and loves | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
us also that is the physical one. The mental one and the spiritual | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
one, which I don't really understand, is the homosexual side. | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
God just loves us all. It is about two Sauls meeting. That is just the | :54:32. | :54:41. | |
body. Why did God create gay people? He wants to celebrate love. When you | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
say marriage is just for children what about those wonderful couples | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
who cannot have children or who are impotent? The six verses that talk | :54:51. | :54:59. | |
about homosexual acts are about power, about lost between two men | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
who don't desire each other. We need to go back and understand the | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
context, the Greek and Hebrew, but most of all, the narrative and the | :55:10. | :55:21. | |
Gospel. Then we can mirror our desire and the person we want to | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
commit to four life. The Bible is clear that all six outside of | :55:27. | :55:33. | |
marriage. But what does suffer not which to live mean? You're talking | :55:34. | :55:42. | |
about the old covenant. The Bible needs interpretation, certainly. | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
That is what she is doing. The reason that I say Jane is an extreme | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
liberal as this is very new in the life of the church. It has always | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
been clear to the Christian church that six is for marriage. We've had, | :56:00. | :56:10. | |
for the last 50 years, the sexual revolution which has caused enormous | :56:11. | :56:11. | |
damage. There are people who read the Bible, | :56:12. | :56:28. | |
deciding what they want it to say. What does that mean then? Suffer not | :56:29. | :56:38. | |
a witch. Well... There is suffering over this, young people who believe | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
God does not love them or they want to have love, it will drive many of | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
them to self harm. We had a report that said 42% of young people have | :56:49. | :56:57. | |
considered suicide. We need to own up to the horror and the harm we | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
did. We need to look freshly at celebrating who we are. Lady over | :57:04. | :57:16. | |
there. Your hand was up. I struggle with how this has had more of a | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
detrimental impact than the war fought over religion or the poverty. | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
I don't understand why God would be so concerned with what is going on | :57:28. | :57:35. | |
in our bedroom. You do get the impression God is like a tabloid | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
newspaper going on about it all the time. That is not God if you believe | :57:41. | :57:54. | |
in God. It has got a, done. My job now as I work with homeless folk and | :57:55. | :58:03. | |
a significantly large percentage are gay and it is a consequence of the | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
kind of conversations of people saying because of the God I see | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
under way I'd interpret the Bible, you are judged. No matter how much | :58:14. | :58:24. | |
you say I did not mean you, it comes across as, you are bad. They end up | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
not being able to have the conversations they need. Thank you | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
very much, we are going to leave it there. We've run out of time. Next | :58:34. | :58:44. | |
week we are in Burnley. Have a great Sunday, thanks for watching. | :58:45. | :58:58. | |
Donald Trump's first 100 days in the White House | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
are defining how he'll deal with the rest of the world. | :59:02. | :59:05. |