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Today on The Big Questions: Dealing with Israel. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Today we're live from Leicester Grammar School. | :00:00. | :00:31. | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | :00:32. | :00:32. | |
On Tuesday, Mrs May held talks at Downing Street | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
with her opposite number in Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu. | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
Increasing trade and investment with Israel was high on the agenda. | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
The day before, the Knesset, Israel's parliament, | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
passed a bill legalising settlements on privately owned Palestinian | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
land on the West Bank, in direct contradiction of a UN | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
Mrs May was clear that Britain opposes settlement activity | :00:53. | :01:00. | |
and believes the two-state solution is the best way to bring | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
Should we trade with Israel now the settlements | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
I've been doing debates on this issue for 30 years now. And it's | :01:09. | :01:22. | |
never that quiet. It's very, very impassioned on both sides. We shall | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
attempt to proceed in a civilised direction. From war on want, many | :01:26. | :01:34. | |
say, are you serious? We had trade deals with Saudi Arabia, China, | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
Russia, the United Arab Emirates, some of the worst human rights | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
abusers on the planet. None of them are a democracy like Israel is, how | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
can you possibly justify this? I think there's a major issue the UK, | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
they should be putting UK rights and international law at the centre of | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
all of its trade negotiations with all countries. Should we stop | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
trading with all those countries? It is a question to be brought up. We | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
can't talk about trade without talking about human rights and | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
international law. It is important for the UK to take action right now, | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
move beyond words and suspend its trade relations with Israel because | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
of its systematic violations of international law. If we do that, at | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
a time when we need friends, stop trading with international human | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
rights abusers, we would go out of business. When you continue trading | :02:30. | :02:31. | |
with human rights abusing regimes like Israel, you're basically | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
incentivising human rights abuse. You are giving a green light to save | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
violations of international law, doing things like building | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
settlements, demolishing Palestinian homes is OK. We might say on the | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
side, we don't like it when you do that, as Theresa May did, but | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
incentivising them with trade and especially the arms trade, the UK | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
Government has approved over ?100 million worth of arms exports to | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
Israel in 2016 alone. That is used in violence against Palestinians. It | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
is a double standard to say settlements on one hand but -- no | :03:11. | :03:12. | |
settlements but giving alms to the country that is building them. You | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
referred to Israel. Paul, good morning, a former tank commander | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
with the IDF, a couple of things we need to ask it. And then we will | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
hear from the audience, hands, enough already. Ryvka Referred to | :03:26. | :03:33. | |
Israel as a human rights abuser, how would you respond? That needs to be | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
qualified. By Freedom, Israel is recognised as the only free country | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
in the Middle East. It has a very strong democracy, it has a Supreme | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
Court. It is not subservient to the executive. They will decide whether | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
it is legal or not. There is a huge social housing crisis amongst | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
Palestinians and Israelis. These towns are expanding, they need to | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
expand. It is a controversial issue. You can disagree. At the same time, | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
if the UK disagreed with every country, every political decision, | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
they would not be dealing with China, with India over Kashmir, | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
Turkey over Northern Cyprus, and the opposite | :04:14. | :04:13. | |
would be true. It's not like Spain would cease dealing with the UK over | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
Gibraltar, or Argentina would cease dealing with the UK over the | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
Falkland Islands. We need to put this into perspective, settlements | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
are one issue. Since 1967, that needs to be dealt with in a much | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
larger framework of a peace agreement with the Palestinians | :04:35. | :04:41. | |
requiring it. They want to build a home in a state for themselves. More | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
than they want to destroy and boycott Israel. When that priority | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
changes, peace can be achieved. APPLAUSE | :04:47. | :04:54. | |
Let's go to the audience. Right behind Paul. Good morning. Your | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
microphone is coming! This gentleman here. We are in an age where Trump | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
wants to build walls and impose travel bans and impose restrictions | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
based on their religion and identity. Surely what we want to be | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
doing is reaching out to countries. Reaching out to communities. Israel | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
for example? And to engage and challenge, constructively and to say | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
this is wrong but also, we recognise you are a democracy, we want to work | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
with you. We want to build those trade links, those partnerships, | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
improve relationships for the people in the world, rather than being | :05:32. | :05:32. | |
isolationist. You keep saying it's a democracy. | :05:33. | :05:41. | |
It's not a democracy, it's a democracy similar to South Africa in | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
apartheid times. There are so many people which are disenfranchised, | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
they don't have any say in the running of Israel and they keep | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
saying it is a democracy. It has women's rights, gay rights, union. | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
That is one angle. It is the biggest concentration camp in the world. | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
It's almost a prison. Paul? I need to be very careful bringing the | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
points back and forth so it is fair. Be careful with the terminology you | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
use, that is harmful. What is recognised internationally as a | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
democracy. As we said, we have all the minorities as heads of Supreme | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
Court, doctors, heads of hospitals, heads of universities. Minorities | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
from across the board, Arabs, Christians, etc. This is recognised | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
as a beacon as what could be seen as a free country that all the rest of | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
the countries can see that this is what we want to have, this is the | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
beacon, this is your ultimate. Gentlemen, there is a point you | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
made, the first speaker. Leon. I want to point to you, Professor good | :06:48. | :06:56. | |
morning. How are you? Very well thank you. I am shocked that you | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
have a juicy Palestinian question and the crisis in the middle East to | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
a housing problem. You said it's a housing problem that exists for | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
Israelis and Palestinians. You are expanding these towns because there | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
is a housing crisis that needs to be addressed. It's the continued | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
colonisation of Palestine. Nor demolishing houses. You are chasing | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
and removing, let's call it out for what it is -- you are demolishing | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
houses. It is ethnic cleansing going on in these areas that have gone on | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
for decades. I will put that point to Tom. Go on, come back on it. It's | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
really important to have a debate but we need to be so careful with | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
our language. We want to have a civilised debate here. Using words | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
like concentration camps and ethnic cleansing is really offensive. | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
APPLAUSE To all people who have actually | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
suffered. That extreme genocide and persecution. Please don't use | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
language like concentration camps because it is not concentration | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
camp. It is a fact, these people have been disenfranchised. With the | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
building settlements, the Palestinian houses are being | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
demolished. Let me put a point to you that Leon made. Trade means | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
links, diplomacy, influence, it means you can make progress. | :08:18. | :08:27. | |
Zimbabwe, we have sanctions on Zimbabwe. We have absolutely zero | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
influence. We cannot help the people who are suffering egregious league | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
at the hands of Robert Mugabe and his thugs. The only way we get to | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
Zimbabwe is through the back channels of South Africa and that is | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
difficult enough. Would you want to create a situation where you have no | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
influence, no trading links with Israel? You said you have been | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
covering this topic for 30 years and the number of settlers in the West | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
Bank has increased by 100,000, now 700,000 people. It will reach 1 | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
million unless we do something to stop it. If people really are | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
interested in peace, you need to look at the situation of the | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
Palestinians, who didn't choose to be occupied. To have their land | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
taken. To have another state created in our homeland. I speak as a | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
Palestinian. We didn't choose that. This is about the rights of the | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
Palestinian people. Paul talked about housing, building houses. It | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
ludicrous. These houses are built for only one type of person. A | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
Jewish Israeli. Not for Palestinians. If Israel were serious | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
about solving the housing crisis, why doesn't it open up the | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
settlements out to Palestinians? Even better, not build on someone | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
else's land. APPLAUSE All? | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
You've never had a state. We want to help you create a safe propriety of | :09:43. | :09:51. | |
67 it was owned by the Jordanians. They did not allow you to own your | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
own land. Prior to that the British and the Ottomans. This land is | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
called disputed for that fact. Do Palestinians exist as a people, do | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
you think? Do you recognise us as a people? Absolutely. You should have | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
a stake in live alongside us. You should put down your arms. Why don't | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
you put trash on the Israeli government to leave our land? Let me | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
intervene right there. -- put pressure on. Tom, is this not the | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
situation now with the settlements having been legitimised in the | :10:25. | :10:33. | |
Knesset, does that not put a massive wall up to the possibility of a two | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
state solution? Massively counter-productive. This is a | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
proposed law and we will see if it gets to the Supreme Court because | :10:44. | :10:45. | |
Israel has strong checks and balances on its democracy. It is | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
concerning that we think the presence of Jewish people in the | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
West Bank in some way negates their being able to have a Palestinian | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
state. Why is it assumed this Palestinian state has to be free of | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
Jewish people? Why can't they have a Jewish minority? Just like Israel | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
has an Arab and Muslim minority? We can't criminalise an entire | :11:09. | :11:10. | |
community because they ended up on the wrong side of the Armistice | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
line. There are about half a million people there, they are not going | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
anywhere. It's better that we learn for the two sites to be able to | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
accept a minority within one another's countries. Ryvka? It is | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
important for us to recognise that the settlements, like people have | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
referred to, it's been a policy of the state of Israel for decades, | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
now. The reason why settlements exist in the West Bank is not | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
because they ended up on the wrong side of the Armistice line. It's a | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
policy of expansion and colonisation as somebody has mentioned. It is | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
against international law. That is undisputed. It is against UK policy. | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
As a consumer, would you boycott products from Israel? Absolutely. | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
How do you feel when you use Google, they have a major research and | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
development centre in Israel? How do you feel? It's less about an | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
individual consumer. You said you definitely would do that. If you had | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
a list of choices would you radically transform your habits? The | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
important thing is for the UK Government to take action in line | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
with its own policy. The UK foreign policy recognise the settlements as | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
illegal under international law. It's important for the UK to act on | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
that policy. We talked a bit about engagement and you raise the | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
question of whether the UK would have more influence through | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
engagement. Viewers remember Margaret Thatcher's days in relation | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
to South Africa. The policy was constructive engagement. In | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
retrospect it is recognise that actually prolonged apartheid and it | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
allowed apartheid to deepen. Constructive engagement as a policy | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
was rubbished after apartheid fell. Finally, because of economic | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
pressure like sanctions. It's important for us to recognise that | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
as an important tool that the UK Government has. It is time to move | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
beyond words and condemnation into action. APPLAUSE | :13:06. | :13:07. | |
Paul? I like to bring something constructive | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
into it. The blame game is not going to get us to be still. I want to see | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
the Palestinian authority take more control over its own people and over | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
the peace process. We are wanting the Palestinian state more than it | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
wants to destroy and denigrate the Israeli state. There is goodwill | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
around the world and in Israel to help you do that. But you must | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
remember that with all the wars that came in that Israel has to defend | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
itself. It has given back Gaza. Israeli has conceded. What about the | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
gentleman's point that a proportion of our audience, I will put that to | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
him, a proportion of our audience will be wondering, the point | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
represented by that gentleman. Taking land from people, land that | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
is not yours. How do you respond to that? Firstly, this is disputed | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
territory with Palestinians and Jewish people living on it. Please | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
allow me to speak. It isn't disputed territory. When the Israelis left | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
Gaza, every inch of Gaza, the Palestinian land, gave it back and | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
said create a state. We are legally greenhouses, businesses. What was | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
created was a mini terrorist state would only the development of bombs | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
and warfare. The problem is that if Israel does the same thing | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
immediately and retracts from the West Bank, we will have the same | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
extremist ideology coming out of there. We cannot trust and rely | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
without a strong security presence. We cannot trust and rely on these | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
states like Hamas to automatically become democratic and allow gays and | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
Christians to flourish. It will not happen. Kamel, I will be with you, | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
you will have the next voice on the front row and so will Ibrahim. Tom | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
will be back. More audience comments. Leon Camier had a good | :14:57. | :14:58. | |
save. The gentleman at the back? It is important to realise, I | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
believe, after the United Kingdom has voted to leave the European | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
Union, and other factors coming into the 21st-century, that Britain is no | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
longer the global player in the world that it was in post-colonial | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
period after 1945 at the end of the Second World War. What should we do? | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
The diminishing power, we haven't got over responsibility to police | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
the world in the same way and we haven't got the capability. What do | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
we do about Israel? We shouldn't boycott them in any sense at all. | :15:32. | :15:38. | |
In respect of trading with places like Dubai, Saudi Arabia, United | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
Arab Emirates, even trading with Pakistan. Israel is democratic and | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
free as the gentleman said. I take your point. Expressed well by | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
yourself. Good morning. This is about trade. My concern is that the | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
Brexit boat will lead to our leaders, Prime Minister Theresa May | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
and others, only doing deals with countries that are abusing human | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
rights behind their hands, whispering it instead of saying it | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
forcefully, because we need friends. The foreign policy that Robin Cook | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
wished for is not going to happen because we are in no position to | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
criticise others. Is there such a thing as an ethical foreign policy? | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
I think there should be. Professor, you wanted to come back? In the age | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
of Trump, it seems that trade trumps human rights and that is something | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
we should all oppose and oppose strongly. Paul talked about the | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
Palestinians taking more control of their people and so on. Let me give | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
you an example. Under the Oslo accord, an area called area C, the | :16:47. | :16:53. | |
most fertile part of Palestine, apparently under Israeli security | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
and administrative control, it was to be passed over. It isn't being | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
passed over. A number of Israeli ministers say it should be annexed. | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
They actually have no interest in a Palestinian state emerging. The | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
Prime Minister was only advice yesterday, going to Washington next | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
week, two words you should not use, you should not utter two Woods, | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
Palestinian and state. So if there is no Palestinian state, I would | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
very much like to hear what the solution is? There are almost an | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
equal number of Palestinians and Jewish people in that area. What is | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
the solution and has strategically important is a Israel to this | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
country? It is very strategically important in terms of counterterror | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
but that is by the bye and I think the issue here is the moral issue | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
and the issue of human rights. We are being very selective in how we | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
are talking about human rights. Israel are targeted for boycotts and | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
they say they respect international law, but they are not calling for | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
boycotts on other countries with similar issues. Many people in this | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
audience are more angry about the building of Jewish houses in the | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
West Bank than they are about the abuse of Palestinian rights by | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
Palestinians. If your starting point is constantly on human rights, | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
wouldn't you call out the Palestinian authorities for torture | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
and harassment of Palestinians and journalists and detention without | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
trial? If we have silence on all of this, the focus is exclusively on | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
finding reasons to boycott and demonise the world's only Jewish | :18:34. | :18:41. | |
state. We are talking about Palestinian rights and freedom. What | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
the other side is talking about is simply sustaining the status quo. | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
The status quo has led us to a situation where there is a lot of | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
unhappiness and anger and abuse of the Palestinians by the Israeli | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
state. We need to be free for there to be peace in Palestine. Ibrahim | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
Mogra, from the Muslim Council of Britain, do you recognise Israel's | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
right to exist? Within internationally recognised borders, | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
yes. I think we have brought Israel into our embrace far more than I | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
would have liked to see. They are participants in the European | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
football competitions and the Eurovision Song Contest and we don't | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
even share a border with them. In response to your point about | :19:29. | :19:38. | |
isolating Israel, we have actually remained in at least cultural and | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
political contact with them. The important thing here is that | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
international law has got to be applied equally across the board. It | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
is not about Israel, whether it is Saudi Arabia, Pakistan was | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
mentioned, the Gulf states were mentioned, China, which ever state | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
it is. As human beings, if we subscribe to international law, if | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
we fail to apply the UN resolutions equally across the board, what are | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
we showing to the world? That democracy is selective. That | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
powerful nations will pick on the weaker nations. That self-interest | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
and national interest will Trump all the other global interests. So the | :20:20. | :20:28. | |
question is are we applying the same yardstick as a measure to different | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
behaviours of government? We have gone into Iraq and Libya because | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
their leaders were corrupt and dictatorial, as they were, but they | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
flaunted UN security resolutions. How many resolutions has Israel | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
overlooked over time? We have got to leave it there because we have other | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
things to debate but your point came across loud and clear. Not that | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
everybody watching will agree with it. It is a perilous line, this | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
debate, always, but I think that was pretty calm. Everyone? Yes? OK, | :21:00. | :21:12. | |
let's do the next one! If you have something to say about that debate, | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
please go online and follow the link. We are live from Leicester | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
Grammar School. Has the time come to raise taxes to cover social care and | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
is monogamy bad for marriage? Get tweeting and emailing on those | :21:28. | :21:29. | |
topics and sent as any other thoughts you have about the | :21:30. | :21:30. | |
programme. This week, the National | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
Health Service has been Hospitals have been | :21:35. | :21:36. | |
failing to meet patient targets for waiting in A, | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
waiting for cancer treatments, waiting on trolleys, and waiting | :21:40. | :21:41. | |
for ambulances to arrive. A key factor has been the inability | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
to discharge patients no longer in need of medical treatment, | :21:46. | :21:56. | |
that awful phrase bed blockers, because of the lack of social | :21:57. | :21:58. | |
care in the community. And while the number of people over | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
65 has risen by more than 15%, budgets for adult social care | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
run by local councils Now local councils, who need to win | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
a local referendum to raise council taxes by more than 5%, | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
are raising or introducing charges for burials, parking, | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
planning applications, And the councils with the biggest | :22:18. | :22:18. | |
social care problems tend to be Has the time come to raise taxes | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
to cover social care? Dawn, social affairs journalist, | :22:24. | :22:36. | |
this has been coming down the track for years. We knew it was coming | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
down the track. It has been coming for ages. Because it doesn't suit | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
the electoral cycle and it will cost boats, nobody has really done | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
anything to counteract it and deal with it. What do we need to do? We | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
need to invest very heavily. We also need to look at social care in the | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
same way that we look at the NHS. Instead of everybody having a very | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
localised and different response to social care, I think we should bring | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
in a social care standards and say that everybody deserves the same | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
social care, like we do with the NHS. If I go into an NHS hospital in | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
London, I should get the same care as somebody in Liverpool, and | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
everybody should get the same social care regardless of what they earn. | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
How do we pay for it? I think we have got to raise taxes. By raising | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
the tax free allowance, people who were relatively well off were given | :23:26. | :23:34. | |
a little more money. But what we have seen is the poorest in society | :23:35. | :23:36. | |
being massively hit by cuts at one of those cuts is the end of the | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
council tax benefit. The very poorest in society now have got to | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
pay council tax. Which taxes should we be putting up? I think we should | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
put up the tax-free alliance. -- allowance. Council tax is | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
regressive. People struggle to pay it. Councils bring in burial charges | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
so people cannot afford to bury their children often. Councils spent | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
days on end every week in court trying to get poor people into court | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
with a summons for a ?60 council tax charge. I think council tax is the | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
wrong way to do it. We need to look at national Insurance being raised | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
or raising the tax-free allowance. We need to fund social care like we | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
fund the NHS and we need to find the NHS more. We need an awful lot of | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
money here, don't we? We do need a lot of money for social care but we | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
do not need to raise taxes. If there is one way of making sure people | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
will oppose a policy it is to do something that means raising taxes. | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
The big question in our society today is how do we look after each | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
other? And this is the question that social care is meant to answer and | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
yet it is the most do value and, most do prioritised, underfunded of | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
any of our domestic policies. Why is that? Why do we need to raise | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
taxation? More taxes paid now than for the last 30 years. The point is | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
that we need a different funding structure for social care if it is | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
either going to be the preventative service that stops wasting money and | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
damaging lives that it can be. We need to do that and we need to do it | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
by looking to the NHS. We need to have a social care system that can | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
be connected with the NHS because it is no longer needs and means tested. | :25:22. | :25:29. | |
Instead it is funded out of general taxation. It is free at the point of | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
delivery and it is available to everybody, as most ordinary people | :25:35. | :25:36. | |
think until they try and get social care. Hello. Good morning, everyone. | :25:37. | :25:47. | |
We have already paid for this structure called the National Health | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Service, whether you call it social care. We have paid for it once, from | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
when we have worked all our lives. We have then paid for it again when | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
we bailed out the bankers. But we haven't paid enough. I accept that. | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
However we still need to do a little bit more but why is it always we? | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
Why is it always the people who are the most vulnerable who have got to | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
bail out the ones who don't need that money? We should have more | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
money in the pot but where will it come from? So I agree with the | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
gentleman here. We do need to look after each other a little bit better | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
than we have in the past, however I am sick and tired, literally, of us, | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
the vulnerable people, the sick, the elderly, the disabled, the children, | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
always having to provide the solution and always having to | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
provide the money every time to bail out social care because it is a | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
social care system that is falling apart. We can't do it any more. We | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
have had enough. No more. No more what? No more bailing out anybody | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
else any more. There has got to be another way? Why do we think having | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
decent social care will cost more? Why would it cost more to prevent | :27:06. | :27:21. | |
elderly people needing more intervention? It is denied because | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
the budget have dropped drastically. I was at Manchester council the | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
other day and the budget has been cut by 40% which has a knock-on | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
effect on the social care budget. Councils have been tasked with this | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
and they are trying their best to provide social care to everybody who | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
needs it, but actually in my borough, Lambert, 70% of people | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
requesting social care are denied it. Social carers deserve to be well | :27:44. | :27:51. | |
paid. It is shocking the amount that they get given what they do and the | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
commitment with which they do it. But economists will tell you that | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
raising the minimum wage made social care far more expensive. But did it | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
really? Why don't we think of this as we should? People say that social | :28:06. | :28:08. | |
care is not like rocket science and I say it is much more complicated! | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
Looking after people properly with complex needs, looking after all the | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
groups mentioned behind me, and if we do it properly, not only is it | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
symbolic of a decent and respectable society, but why should it cost | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
more? Nobody had even try to find out if it costs more. I am on your | :28:27. | :28:35. | |
team, here to argue that we should not be raising taxes, but one area | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
of agreement we can find is that local councils have an unfair amount | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
of pressure put on them to cut from social care. When we see things like | :28:42. | :28:43. | |
the triple-lock being protected for electoral reasons, it is very hard | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
to see how that 6 million per year is going towards protecting the | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
triple-lock when social care is attacked. Pensioners vote | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
disproportionately, of course. Certainly. But as you pointed out, | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
the UK is facing its heaviest tax burden of 30 years and the state is | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
taking 30% of British national income every year, and it is | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
spending roughly 45% because of the deficit. Sorry to be tedious, I | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
should make that apology more often! How do we pay for it? There are some | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
practical things we can do. We need to stop protecting the vote blogs | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
and put the billions towards things like the triple-lock into more | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
impressive areas like social care. We need to do is roll more power to | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
local councils. -- we need to devolve more power to local | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
councils. The triple-lock is on pensions, by the way. And business | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
rates. But we can do more. Or sales tax for local councils and I would | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
devolve corporation tax to local councils. Get the money into the | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
local councils so that we can care for our neighbours, the people next | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
to us, and do it properly, but raising taxes right now is not an | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
option. But a regressive tax hits the poor hardest. I would stay away | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
from VAT personally and I would look more at business rates. Thank you. I | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
know you want to come in, but I just want to hear from the audience first | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
of all. You have had your hand up for some time. | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
I disagree we should evolve more power to local councils, that is why | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
we have patchy provision all over the UK right now. Currently, if you | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
have over ?23,000 worth of assets, you are funding all your social care | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
yourself. Because you have to. That's 40% of people. 30% of people | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
are not getting any care whatsoever. What's happening to them? People are | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
saying they don't want taxes raised but I don't see what other option we | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
have. Surrey has a far higher proportion of self funders. They are | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
very affluent. Right behind you. Me? Your time has come. How do we pay | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
for this? I think somebody already said we | :30:52. | :31:00. | |
already paid for it. Do you know, I'm sick and tired of hearing every | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
day in the newspapers, TV about people getting old. LAUGHTER | :31:07. | :31:14. | |
Tell me about it! It's either you die Young or you get old. We are | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
getting older, more of us. Knocking on these elderly people. Ageing | :31:20. | :31:29. | |
community, ageing this. Yeah. Their relatives fought in two world wars | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
to build this country. Now that they need help from this country, they | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
are being put on the back burner. They are being put in cold | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
corridors, four hours and hours. Heartbreaking, isn't it? They are in | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
pain, waiting to be seen. What's going on? What about the people of | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
this country? I'm going to put that to Cristina. This is their country, | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
they helped to build it, they should get number one care. APPLAUSE | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
Let me put this to Cristina. People in this country never -- people who | :32:06. | :32:12. | |
came into this country never put a penny into this country. Their | :32:13. | :32:19. | |
relatives fought hard, husbands, sons, uncles, fought in the war, | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
some never came back. People just come in through the gate getting | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
everything and they are being penalised for being old? This is a | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
disgrace on Britain. Put the Great back into Great Britain and Purdue | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
are people first. Well done to Trump. Well done to Trump America | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
and its people first. This contribution has taken an | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
interesting turn! Can I... Can I please... It's a disgrace! It's a | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
disgrace! That was impassioned. I'm ashamed of everybody. Give her a | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
round of applause. Lots of points. I want to pick you up on one if I may. | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
We need to look at ourselves, Cristina? Absolutely. It's what our | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
cultural values. Those "Bed blockers" are people whom the NHS | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
cannot bring back home because there is no one home, there is no one | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
there for them. There's no child who they've raised and loved. There's no | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
sibling. There's no neighbour. That's the problem. What we are | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
looking at here is social care. We shouldn't think about it just in | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
terms of is its local taxes, is it the central government that should | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
help us? It's us. We owe our older generation the same that we owe our | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
younger generation. Which is care. Absolute devotion dedication and | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
that old-fashioned world, self-sacrifice. You realise what | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
you're saying? People in their 70s, as the minister fails to appreciate | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
recently, people in the late 60s and 70s looking after people in their | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
late and 90s. Known. We are, actually. We're talking as if we | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
don't live in a world where the work - life balance isn't bananas and | :34:09. | :34:10. | |
women are no longer sitting at home working, sometimes working two jobs | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
families. Like mine are spread all over the UK because they can't live | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
in the South -- families like mine. One last thing, the real wonder of | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
the original NHS was that it was part a new welfare state. It was | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
built on changing the distribution of taxation. We've gone back in | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
exactly the opposite direction. If you pay PAYE you pay a large amount | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
of tax, large corporation, offshore person, someone who knows lots of | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
fiddles and the means to avoidance and evasion are legion. And having | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
introduced by government of the government. We are wasting, it's | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
estimated, 200- ?300 billion on private finance initiatives. This is | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
destroying us as communities. Playing on the never-never. | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
Cristina, you didn't finish your point. Can I speak? Please finish | :35:00. | :35:06. | |
your point. I don't think it's about money. Money needs someone to make | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
priorities. It's not just about money. It's about what you value. I | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
fear what we are saying to one another is that we only value what | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
we make out of society, rather than what we can bring to society. Our | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
government might feel like that, I certainly don't and I bet nobody in | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
this room feels like that. When you go to a hospital ward and you see | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
rows and rows of elderly people all by themselves and then you ask, do | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
you have any children? They say, yes, but they haven't come to visit. | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
Do you have any siblings? Yes, but they don't visit. I could give you | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
the exact opposite picture. I would base my picture on research, not | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
going round one place. Which taxes would you raise? First of all, an | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
important point which hasn't been made yet is that society really | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
needs to come to terms with the changing demography. The number of | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
older people in society is growing fast. To put some figures on it, | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
since 1980, the number of people above the age of 90 has tripled. In | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
the next 20 years, the number of -- number of people over 80 will more | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
than double. This will cause a major impact to both the health services | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
and social services. With increasing in age, we will get more frail | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
people. What's the solution? The solution is that there has been | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
identified a care gap in terms of funding. | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
Either the funding has to be diverted from other areas. Other | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
areas of spending are equally important. Education, defence, | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
policing. Where do we get it from? Which areas do we take from? If the | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
politicians decide and then informed public needs to decide as well. If | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
that gap cannot be closed by diverting other funds, then the only | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
way is to raise some taxes. Which other funds can use it, as a man who | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
knows this area and this stuff and understand the economy? Where would | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
you identify the best place to actually take some money from? | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
That's... Up for debate for politicians. At health care | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
professionals, I'm not a health economist but what we can do is | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
point out the deficiencies and what happened at the ground level. When | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
the social care budget is reduced. I've been working in the NHS now for | :37:30. | :37:35. | |
over 31 years. I've never seen it so bad. The amount of pressure on staff | :37:36. | :37:42. | |
at the front door is enormous. People are under enormous pressure. | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
And things can only get worse. Ibrahim, are you seeing... We know | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
the traditional prevalent attitude in cultures... Generation upon | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
generation living together, looking after each other, enjoying the | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
wisdom of the elder generation. It's the wonderful quid pro quo of love, | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
isn't it? Yes. Are you seeing something happening in Muslim | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
communities where people are being put in homes? Are you seeing that | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
happening? It's beginning to happen. It's a very sad development. As a | :38:17. | :38:24. | |
segment of British society, nevertheless, we are still... | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
Impacted upon, like everybody else. Despite our religious teachings. | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
It just worries me if the establishing of Muslim care homes | :38:33. | :38:39. | |
becomes... The norm. And we see more and more of that. | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
Muhammad, peace be on him, said he who does not show kindness to young | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
one that does not recognise the dignity and honour of elders is not | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
one of us. We are not part of the human communities. We have two | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
revisit how we set up our homes and families. Within my own extended | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
family, there was a time when we had four generations living in one home. | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
Younger couples are now husband and wife, both working, having grandma | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
and grandad at home to look after the little ones to raise them. | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
Incredibly enriching. To pass on the culture. It's not possible for | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
everyone in a world which, Cristina, that's an excellent point and we've | :39:27. | :39:28. | |
heard it before and we hear that again and again. That's not the real | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
world for 70 people, is it? We have been talking about houses where you | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
have one person living in a huge house all by herself or all by | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
himself. And what better way of trying to, you know, re-stoke a | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
social capital than to open the house and have a young family come | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
in, to live in? Possibly a refugee to come and live in? Have you done | :39:55. | :40:02. | |
that? No. It's very funny. A friend of mine has just done this. Come on! | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
The real world! Hold on, the real world! We are talking about a | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
housing crisis. Why? Why is a housing crisis? Because all we care | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
about with housing is that it costs a lot! Housing crisis is another | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
debate. All of these crises are coming at us because we were | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
admitted to the elephant in the room. Last word. That the NHS is | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
fundamentally in crisis because no one will consider reform. We haven't | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
built enough homes. That is the option of health care all houses for | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
the British people. That is the elephant in the the room that we | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
need to talk about. Thank you for your contributions. | :40:40. | :40:40. | |
You can join in all this morning's debates by logging | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and following the link | :40:44. | :40:44. | |
And you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq. | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
Tell us what you think about our last big question too. | :40:49. | :40:50. | |
And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
We're in Edinburgh next week, Birmingham on February 26th, | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
and Newcastle-upon-Tyne the week after that. | :41:01. | :41:07. | |
It's World Marriage Day today, honouring the partnership of husband | :41:08. | :41:09. | |
and wife and their faithfulness to each other as the | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
But across the globe, monogamy is not the most popular option. | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
Six times as many societies, over 1,000, allow men | :41:20. | :41:21. | |
Although only four allow women to have more than one husband. | :41:22. | :41:29. | |
You run Polygam.com and second wife .com. He would like another wife? | :41:30. | :41:50. | |
Yeah, why not? Thank you for joining us this week! LAUGHTER | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
We have a bit more time than that. Why do you want another wife? It's | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
my nature, the honourable guest over there said he is gay and he fought | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
for his rights. In the similar manner, I believe I was born | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
polygamists. It's my nature that I would like to have a larger family, | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
more children, more wives. What does your current number one why think | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
about this? She's a bit hesitant in all honesty. LAUGHTER | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
Is she? Is she? That's a lot to do with the perception of everybody | :42:22. | :42:23. | |
else, what they would think about her. When I sat down to get married | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
and we discussed this and I put forward my thoughts. From a | :42:27. | :42:28. | |
religious point of view it's absolutely acceptable. That's how we | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
regulate our relationship. What about the inevitable jealousy? It | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
does exist, it absolutely exists. How do I put this? LAUGHTER | :42:40. | :42:48. | |
It's my turn? I don't mean like it's my turn to ask a question... | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
LAUGHTER I mean, "It's my turn to night". | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
With every relationship, relates the relationship is regulated with | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
Scripture. -- this relationship is regulated. You must abide it | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
unequally with all of your spouses. Timetable, fridge magnet? -- you | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
must divide all of your time equally. In the US I see a lot of | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
these relationships within the Christian sects, they are adopting | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
that role, that model. All in the same house? No, not necessarily. But | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
possibly? Possibly if everybody can sense. The house has to be quite big | :43:26. | :43:34. | |
to accommodate them. It's difficult. What it comes down to... If someone | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
were to be excluded, would it be, apologies for this, would it be | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
acceptable for everybody to... Sleep in the same... No. Moral standards. | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
Moral standards? You're talking about moral standards? LAUGHTER | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
Yes, Cristina talked about raising taxes in the last debate, we raise | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
our moral standards. It would never even come across for me to throw my | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
parents into a home. I would chuck my parents out before that. Coming | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
back to here, what polygyny and I stand for is bigger, stronger | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
families. So we don't come to a situation where people don't have a | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
support structure. We don't segregate ourselves into | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
individuals. We stay as communities. I will be back with you. Harry | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
Benson, research director at the marriage foundation. Whatever works | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
for you? There are comedic possibilities there. I had a laugh. | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
The oldest jokes known to humanity there in. But if it works to fore U | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
and around the world, what's the problem? What people choose to do in | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
private is their own business but don't bring other people into it and | :44:46. | :44:47. | |
certainly don't bring children into it. APPLAUSE | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
It's blindingly obvious, really. Monogamy is marriage. . One | :44:54. | :45:00. | |
relationship, monogamy. Marriage is terrific for monogamy because it | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
reconciles our two competing demands of human nature where we have the | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
need for reliable love on the one hand. But we also have our | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
fundamentally selfish nature on the other hand. | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
When we commit to a marriage, we are offering reliable love to someone | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
else and they offer it to us, and we get our needs are met and | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
relationships basically work. They do because we have set out a clear | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
plan for our future together. That is the whole deal of marriage. When | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
you set out a plan for your future together, you get all the good | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
things that make the relationship work coming into play. We care for | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
one another. This might cut divorce rates. Divorce | :45:46. | :46:00. | |
rates have falling for 25 years. Marriage is working very well. That | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
is because people are not getting married. That is nonsense. The | :46:05. | :46:06. | |
divorce rate is the proportion of people who get married. Look at how | :46:07. | :46:08. | |
marriage actually works. If you are married before you have your baby, | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
eight out of ten parents will still be together by the time their | :46:12. | :46:13. | |
children are sitting the GCSEs. Only three out of ten will still be | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
together if they are not married before they have a baby. That is the | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
difference between the two and it is true across the social spectrum and | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
across the developed world. This is a universal human issue. Committed | :46:24. | :46:31. | |
people get married. It is very difficult to extricate the truth | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
from statistics like that. You know that. You want to come back on that? | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
You mentioned that monogamy is basically two people but a few years | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
ago we didn't even recognise that gentleman's union. Society will | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
catch up with this and I am here to voice that there are groups of | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
people who want to live this way and as liberal people we have no right | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
to impose our thought onto them. Would it be a problem for you if you | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
had your four wives and some of them had a same-sex relationship with | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
each other. Would that improve cohesion within the household? That | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
wouldn't happen within my household. No, it wouldn't. I've got you. Carry | :47:14. | :47:22. | |
on. I am a professional researcher. I maybe wrong about this. I have yet | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
to see a piece of research that looks at the triangular relationship | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
between three adults that gives the same kind of reliability of love | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
that you get between two. Doesn't. You don't get the stability for | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
children. Do what you like but don't bring children into it. Children are | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
the biggest benefactors of such a relationship. Recent research | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
conducted by the Canadian government where everybody was voicing that | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
such relationships are harmful found the contrary. It benefits children | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
more. The Canadian government, not me. Right, OK. Go on. I am 18, so I | :48:01. | :48:09. | |
don't have enough experience to comment on marriage but you have got | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
to start from somewhere! Thank you! I would like to ask the gentleman | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
over there. You want a second wife. Are you willing to accept it if your | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
wife has a second husband? Let's be honest, no. Are you aware of the | :48:26. | :48:33. | |
phrase what is good for the goose is good for the gander? Is that truly | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
polygamy or you just satisfying your own needs? Let's not forget this is | :48:40. | :48:49. | |
an open discussion, that Britain is a very democratic country. If we | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
allow polygamy in this country, what impact would that have on countries | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
who have worse human records? Would women get more abused in these | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
countries because they can point at Britain and say, look, the model of | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
democracy, they allow a man to have two wives but they don't allow women | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
to have two husbands? What a great audience we have got to date! Wait a | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
minute, everyone. Calm down. It is getting a little bit too shouted. | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
Your house will be like that in a few years! I know what you are going | :49:31. | :49:40. | |
to state, Cristina. Is this a good thing? I don't think it is a good | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
thing for women to think it takes four women to satisfy one man and a | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
family to be built around one man saying his needs need to be | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
satisfied. That is not what families are about and it is not what | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
marriage is about and it is not the kind of role modelling I would like | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
children to see. I think the role modelling that we want is to have a | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
joint partnership, where there is a tremendous amount of self-sacrifice | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
on both sides. A tremendous amount of duty and response ability on both | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
sides. And none of this self gratification, lording it over four | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
women. I mean, come on! At no point have I said that this is for | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
everybody. It is for certain individuals who are capable of doing | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
this. What makes you capable of doing this? It is my nature. What | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
does that mean? I can't explain it to you. That is how I was born. What | :50:32. | :50:39. | |
do you mean? Are you insatiable? I am just going to go back to my | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
websites. We have websites, like polygamy .com, open to everybody, | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
and we have 50% women signing up and not a single one was forced into | :50:50. | :50:56. | |
signing up. On second wife .com, we launched it for just Muslims, and it | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
is 25% women signing on. These women are often of the highest calibre, | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
well educated, in very high positions. And for whatever reason, | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
they signed up themselves. I like women of the highest calibre! No, we | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
judge. I will be honest, we do. These are not battered women. This | :51:16. | :51:24. | |
is the logically justified. -- do you think this is theologically | :51:25. | :51:32. | |
justified? In what sense? From God? For me, the Koran and the Bible. Of | :51:33. | :51:41. | |
the 24 mentioned profits, 33% of them had multiple wives. If it was | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
acceptable in the eyes of God for his profits, the best of his | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
creation, the best of the husbands, the best of everything, to have | :51:50. | :51:57. | |
it... Wait a minute! You would accept somebody having an affair and | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
if you don't bat an eyelid? Who here thinks it is theologically | :52:05. | :52:11. | |
justifiable in the audience? Ibrahim , do you know people in this | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
situation? Yes, I know a handful of people. Only one of them is still | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
happily married to his two wives. The rest have all had a really hard | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
time. What kind of hard time? There are not so many that I know, but in | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
the cases that I know, the first wife has left the husband. The | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
husband has been pressurised into leaving his second wife. We need to | :52:35. | :52:44. | |
explore the allowances within Sharia that chapter four verse three | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
mentions. With regard to the care of orphans, if you are fearful about | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
the welfare and the well-being of them, when inheritance could be | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
usurped by others, you marry their mother so that those orphans now | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
have a father figure who can safeguard their interests. If you | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
take a second, third and a fourth, be very mindful that you must treat | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
them fairly. That is open to interpretation. Some Muslim men | :53:12. | :53:24. | |
conveniently leave it there, but the verse carries on, it says if you | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
cannot treat them fairly and equally then marry only one. If you look at | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
Muhammad, peace be on him, he had many wives, but he remained married | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
to just one woman up until the age of 50. After that, when he became in | :53:40. | :53:51. | |
a position to be a prophet, statesman, and a political leader, | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
and at the same time a widower, he set an example and chose to marry | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
divorcees because they were not worthy of marriage in that culture. | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
He married widows because they were not regarded as worthy of marrying. | :54:05. | :54:11. | |
We have got to take this into context and interpreted properly. I | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
hear what you are saying. Some thoughts from the audience and I | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
have one about fairness. And the possibility of being fair. At the | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
back? I think the gentleman over there is selfish by nature. Which | :54:23. | :54:29. | |
one? He just wants to satisfy his own needs and he hasn't thought | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
whether his wife wants to have another wife, whether his kids want | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
another dad, because that is what it sounds like it is leading to. If it | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
is in your nature to have more than one thing, just have it. That is | :54:40. | :54:46. | |
complete rubbish. Me personally, the polygamy thing is not for me, but | :54:47. | :54:53. | |
what I find in society is that people are more fond of deception | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
than polygamy. There are lots of women out there who know their man | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
has got another wife, maybe another woman, not married, but honesty. At | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
the end of the day I might not agree with what you are saying but I | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
respect you because you are at least putting it out there and you can say | :55:12. | :55:18. | |
what you want. Transparency. How would you be sure that it is | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
absolutely fair? A man can try his absolute best but he will never be | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
at the pinnacle of fairness that he must still try. Would you prefer one | :55:28. | :55:36. | |
of your wives to the others? Even if there is a preference, you keep that | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
within yourself. You don't make it come out. You don't favour one over | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
the other. If you buy one house, you buy the other house of equal | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
stature. If you buy one a car, it doesn't have to be the exact same, | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
but you buy something to her liking. He has got it worked out! What is | :55:55. | :56:02. | |
the other option? You are in the first debate but we will let you | :56:03. | :56:11. | |
back. He says it is his nature, I could come across somebody who is a | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
paedophile by nature. Somebody else, it might be in their nature to sleep | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
with somebody every day. Just because it is in your nature, in | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
civilised society we have got to control that. Quick point? I made | :56:27. | :56:35. | |
some promises to my wife when I first got married and she made them | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
to me. It is about commitment and self-control. The idea of somebody | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
else entering our marriage, it would be a disaster. It is terrible, this | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
whole idea of having somebody else in a marriage. It is about love, | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
expression for each other, compromise, being together. But what | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
if your wife is OK with it? I know that mine would not be! Then it | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
doesn't apply to you. I hope my wife is watching this! If she is not | :57:03. | :57:10. | |
watching it now, you will make her watch it later! Probably. But I | :57:11. | :57:17. | |
trust. I know it will only be as the marriage and that is so important to | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
me and to so many people's marriages. The idea that you want | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
somebody else in your marriage, I'm sorry, but no. That is OK if it is | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
what works for you. But it is naive to think that people don't have | :57:33. | :57:34. | |
extra marital affairs. This is honourable and upfront. How many | :57:35. | :57:42. | |
wives? I am contemplating two and if it worked out really well, maybe a | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
third. When the reasons why this was set up, is because it was not easy | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
for me to do so because our society, they are laughing. 30 years ago they | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
laughed at that gentleman there and I am happy to take the brunt of it. | :57:56. | :58:04. | |
I have been mentioned a number of times. I don't think it is the same | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
as the gay marriage issue because that was about the union of two | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
people. In effect it is the same as opposite sex marriage but two | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
individuals. I would say it is about genuine consent. If there is genuine | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
consent amongst both parties, then I think it should be considered. What | :58:23. | :58:33. | |
is that Abba song? I do, I do, I do, I do! Thank you for your honesty | :58:34. | :58:35. | |
this morning. There we go. As always, the debates will continue | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
online and on Twitter. Next week we're in my home town, | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
Edinburgh, so do join us then. But for now, it's goodbye from | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
Leicester and have a great Sunday. | :58:45. | :58:49. |