Episode 10 The Big Questions


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Episode 10

Nicky Campbell presents topical debate from University of Sussex, Brighton. Topics include should the people have the final say on the terms of Brexit.


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Today on The Big Questions:

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Should the people have the final

say on the Brexit deal?

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And, who should decide

whether a child's life-sustaining

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treatment should be stopped?

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Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell,

welcome to The Big Questions.

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Today we're live from

the Attenborough Centre

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at the University of Sussex.

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Welcome, everybody,

to The Big Questions.

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Here we go...

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The debate over who should

have the final say over the Brexit

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deal continues to rumble on.

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This week the campaign group Best

for Britain launched a legal

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challenge to make the government

concede a second vote on Brexit.

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This comes on top of the private

member's bill tabled by the Labour

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MP Geraint Davies calling

for a second referendum on whatever

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the Brexit deal turns out to be,

plus a call from Caroline Lucas,

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co-leader of the Greens,

for a people's poll on the final

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deal because of its possible effect

on Northern Ireland.

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Last year, Gina Miller's private

action against the Government

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secured the right of Parliament

to a final vote on the Brexit deal.

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But given the ever-changing

demographics of the UK,

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where those who were most likely

to have voted for Brexit are being

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steadily replaced by young people,

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who overwhelmingly favoured staying

in the EU,

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we ask,

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"Should the people have the final

say on the terms of Brexit?"

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From Best for Britain, Chief

Executive, Eloise Todd, let's be

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honest, that's arguable... (!)...

What is it about leave that you do

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not understand, because the people

have voted.

The people voted in 2016

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for an idea of what Brexit might be

by 2018 is looking really different,

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it is only now that we are starting

to see what the invasion might be

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for the country as a whole and for

families. We were told we would have

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great opportunities of trading with

the US, looks more like steel

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tariffs, trade wars, chlorinated

chicken. We were told we would have

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a boost for the NHS, actually,

doctors and nurses are leaving, and

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we do not have the financial input

we were expecting. We were also told

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we would be able to take back

control but the deal being

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negotiated by the government looks

an awful lot like staying in except

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without the power to make those

decisions! We think because those

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things are looking so different, the

people of this country needs to

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finish this off and they need to

have a say on the new deal.

APPLAUSE

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The vote was on whether we stay or

go, it was not on the precise deal.

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Exactly, that is exactly why we need

to have a vote now, it is only now

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that the terms are becoming clear,

how could people have voted with all

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the information they needed at hand.

It remains to be seen... It is

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interesting in the newspapers that

there is so much about the way in

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which Cambridge analytical work with

the Trump election and there will be

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some analysis in terms of weather

that had implications for the Brexit

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vote but regardless of that, we need

to look at what is on the table

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right now, the government is only

now just getting a position

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together. -- Cambridge Analytica.

People have a right to know what the

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invitations are and let's face it,

how money people in this country

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would trade peace in Northern

Ireland for a Brexit vote, that is

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not something that was on the table!

That is an important part of this,

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and we will be addressing that

shortly. Chloe, former head of

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social media at about leave, Chloe

Westley, it is now emerging exactly

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what this may mean, we did not know

that before, the precise details of

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the deal are going to have an effect

on generations to come. -- at Vote

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Leave. Surely we need to have the

chance to say whether we want this

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particular deal or not.

These calls

for a second referendum, it is a

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plot to stop Brexit backs by the big

banks, Tony Blair, the political

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elite, and...

The political elite?

Tony Blair, John Major, the Brussels

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elite, Alistair Campbell, a lot of

the big businesses, what possible

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motivation with the EU how to

negotiate a good deal with us if

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they knew that they could give us a

terrible deal and then we would vote

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to stay in the EU anyway, all this

talk about democracy, it is

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nonsense, you just want to stop

Brexit, just be open about that.

I

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like a silence! LAUGHTER

There is no answer, there is no

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answer.

I think you will find there

probably is from some other people

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who believe they have an answer, but

a lot of people would agree with

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what you have said, why not put it

to a popular vote, because there is

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nothing undemocratic about that.

I

thought that we did.

We did, in June

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2016, and the general election.

In

2016, two years ago, we were told

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this was the final say, politicians

could not make up their mind, they

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had to the public to decide. They

were told... Many different things,

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we were told that this would create

absolute economic havoc and people

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still voted to leave, what was

promised... What was promised... We

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were promised there would be a

punishment budget straight after the

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referendum, unemployment would

increase by 800,000. It has gone

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down. Interest rates would go up.

There would be an economic

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catastrophe, it has not happened.

The doom mongers have egg on their

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face, MEN Arena, you cannot keep

going with referendums until Mr

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Mandelson is happy. -- Femi. .

Have

we got everything we wanted from the

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negotiations in Brussels, how well

do you think they are going, does it

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look like they are going well, Army

times have we ask for things and the

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EU has said, no, sorry, that is part

of the single market, you wanted

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out, you don't get that. If you ask

anybody on the street, nobody thinks

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these negotiations are going well,

so did people in 2016 vote for a bad

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deal? Did they vote for that? People

keep arguing, you cannot say what

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people did not know what they voted

for, who in 2016 could have

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predicted the outcome of two years

of negotiations in a process that no

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one has ever done before! The people

vote for whatever future these

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negotiations come out for?

They did

vote for specific things, it was

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made quite clear that voting to

leave the European Union would be

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coming out of the single market and

the customs union, that was in the

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government funded booklet.

Sorry,

sorry am a listen...

Was it made

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clear? It was made clear by Michael

Gove, Boris Johnson, David

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Cameron...

George Osborne...

Allow

me to quote Daniel Hannan,

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absolutely nobody is talking about

sacrificing our place in the single

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market, that is what he said!

Let me

quote the electorate, who have been

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blindsided by this, the number of

people who want a second referendum

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or second vote, at the end of last

year, YouGov at it at 18%, talk

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about the question of single market

membership, customs market

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membership, one region in the UK

according to Ipsos Mori backs

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staying in the customs union, that

is London, for obvious reasons. You

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have to come clean about this, since

referendum, 20 odd months of this

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very vocal, very elitist section of

the Remain campaign screaming about

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"Brexit", the temerity of the people

devote leave, backing calls for MPs

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to intervene, launching legal

challenges, the fact the very same

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people are now saying you believe in

democracy so much that you want us

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to have a second say... We don't buy

it, and...

Why don't you believe in

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democracy, why don't you trust

democracy, Tom

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democracy, why don't you trust

democracy, Tom, if you think the

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deal is going to be so good and the

British people will understand how

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good the deal is, and we are heading

towards the sunny uplands, why don't

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you put it to them, because you must

trust the British people on this

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one, or, do you not trust them?

I

voted leave because I am a Democrat

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and the European Union limits

democracy. It is quite clear that

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elites have always tried to use

avail of democracy to bury

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anti-democratic means. Couple of

examples, whenever...

The Vale of

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democracy for anti-democratic means.

We can all accept that in the same

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way that you don't think you should

try the same person over and over

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again in the hopes that you

prosecute them is more justice,

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putting the same question over and

over again until you get the right

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answer that is not democracy.

We

have a representative of the

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political elites... (!)... LAUGHTER

The idea that

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the idea that Nigel Farage is not

the political elite, that is

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hilarious.

Caroline Lucas.

I think,

what happened in the referendum is

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people voted for departure, they

were unable to vote on destination

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because it was not made clear, it is

as if people were promised a

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wonderful mansion and yet what they

have ended up with is a bit of a

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shack with dodgy wiring and the

bombing doesn't work and it is fair

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enough in that scenario. --

plumbing. Do you want to have a look

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at the final deal, see what this

place will look like? If people like

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it, fine, have it, if they don't,

people should have the right to stay

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inside the European Union and not

move house. The consequences of

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leaving are becoming clearer by the

moment, and I and so negative

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because you have investment down,

inflation up, the NHS bleeding from

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people leaving it, the number of

nurses coming into it down by over

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90%...

APPLAUSE

That is some very big negatives.

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That is before we get to Northern

Ireland. I really worry about

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that...

Let's focus on that in a

moment, because it deserves a

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section of the debate on its own, if

you don't mind, there is another

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couple of issues. Who was it he

said, don't be so negative. Do you

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think that Remainers are being far

too negative? Should we hold hands

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and marched together?

Absolutely, we

should be unified, the country made

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a decision, now we need... Now we

need to enact the decision.

37% of

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the country made a decision.

Rather

than trying to fight the referendum

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again...

INAUDIBLE

You are trying to stop Brexit, glad

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to see you were honest, it is good

to see is honesty.

Can I ask you for

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some honesty. I will be with you in

a moment, Femi, because you wanted

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to talk about demographics and the

ageing population, the young

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people's region has been stolen...

In the phrase you people use... But

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if the phrase had been to stay in

the European Union, would you have

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stopped campaigning to leave?

I

would always have campaigned as I

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have done for nearly two decades.

Would you have campaigned for a

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second referendum?

We would not be

given the time of day, we had this

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despite Brexit, when things going

well, it would

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would you have campaigned for a

second referendum?

We would not have

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been able to have the airtime, this

debate... I would of course have

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continued in what I'm doing because

I passionately believe the British

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people...

If you had the chance of a

second referendum, you would have

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really stepped up to the plate.

We

would not be given one, once someone

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votes against the European Union,

they are made to vote again, to vote

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the right way, and then not given a

say. That is how democracy works in

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the European Union. You have to

support the European Union. What we

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need to do, we have had a vote, we

need to move forward together and

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find any future that the country

going towards.

A future for our

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children, our grandchildren, the

future for you, Femi, what is shot

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ageist point about old people voting

for this. -- what is your ageist

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point.

Isn't it undemocratic that we

currently have a Tory government, we

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voted for Labour in the 2000s, why

are we allowed to change our minds?

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Isn't the basis of democracy that we

can change our minds, we know that

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in the 18 to 24-year-old age group,

70%, remain. Under 55, possibly

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under 65, voted remain. By anyone's

mats, in five years' time, we have a

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population the majority of whom

voted to remain yet they will be

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stuck with Brexit. We'll "Brexit" be

complete then? -- mathematics. Can

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you negotiate trade deals with

hundreds of countries in five years?

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Can you make all your own laws?

Religious Labour country, given that

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one law going through Parliament

takes a year.

APPLAUSE

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Brexit will not be complete, any

when you complete...

By the time we

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have a population that voted against

it, and yet that is their future and

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our future.

Five years, ten years

down the time... There will be a

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population down the road that is

saddled with something they do not

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want.

Yes. It has been put at 2020,

financial Times, 2021, within two

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years, one year of the Brexit

leaving the EU, we have a population

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that voted against it.

It may turn

out to be really good that the

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country.

This is the most ugly

argument I have heard, you are

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suggesting young people should have

two votes, rather than everybody

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else, this is the front to -- you

can play demographic games just for

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the sake of Brexit not happening.

This is an affront to democracy.

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Once in a generation opportunity to

settle this question, we were told.

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And secondly, the point that you

really have directed nice, if we

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have a second referendum, why would

people take it seriously? The elite

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has already said, we know that you

have had your say, try again. I

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would not blame anyone who would not

intervene. I know that that is

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essentially what you are counting

on.

Does he represent the elite?

I

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am saying, elitist.

This notion

that... That a vote on the terms of

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Brexit would thwart the word of the

people, that it would be a big

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establishment coup... The will of

the people cannot be faulted by a

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vote of the people! -- cannot be

thwarted!

APPLAUSE

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an you are saying that people can

been manipulated into voting another

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way, why would a vote on the terms

of Brexit be any different?

A second

0:14:340:14:38

referendum...

It is almost a given

that we will know the outcome of the

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negotiations.

We did not know that

then. Nothing democratic about

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holding a second referendum.

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If there were a second referendum,

what would the result to be?

Who

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knows at that point? I would fight

that referendum tooth and nail.

That

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would indicate the will of the

people. Would you be confident that

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the Brexit side would win that?

About this is the problem. At the

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same time a lot of the polls suggest

people are not changing their minds

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about Brexit...

This is what

happened when they voted against the

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Lisbon Treaty in Ireland, they voted

against the Lisbon Treaty and they

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browbeat them. They are effectively

told the people that their voice

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does not matter.

This is very

different.

In a second I want to see

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what the audience thing. I am sorry

I did not have the chance to speak

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to you earlier.

Go on?

My opinion is that if there

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were to be a second referendum, I

very much hope that the result would

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go the same way. Then maybe MPs,

celebrities, members of the public

0:15:540:16:01

that can't, won't, don't want to

access the result of the first

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referendum will then have to. And

then let's move on and get on with

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it.

Do you think there is an

argument for put up or shut up? Go

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for it, let's have the votes, it

will go our way yet again and then

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you can just get on with it and go

with it? You will never have another

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chance, Mr Mandelson?

I would not

advocate having another referendum.

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As this gentleman said, we have had

it, it was once-in-a-lifetime,

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that's it. Let's get over it. If

people do not like the results, use

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what power you have. If you are an

MP, for example, make sure we get

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the best possible deal that we can

when we leave. Channel your energies

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into that, not just fighting each

other and not letting it drop.

Which

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is what Robert said.

Any more?

I think the issue to

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consider it is a lot of people voted

for Leave on the principles of the

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NHS. Where is the £350 million a

week going to the NHS that we were

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so blatantly promised by multiple

members of the electorate when the

0:17:100:17:16

British public voted Leave? I was 16

at the time of the votes, I was not

0:17:160:17:20

given an opportunity to share my

opinion. The only way I could

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contribute was to campaign, share my

opinions with older people. Why is

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my future...? I was an informed

16-year-old, more informed than lots

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of the population.

You would have

had a God in Scotland.

I might have

0:17:350:17:39

been a lot more informed that 16

then a lot of adults in the country

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and was denied the opportunity...

More informed than the adults who

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had been inside the European Union,

who voted to remain into it in 1975,

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it has evolved into something we do

not like and have change their minds

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and want to come out, want a future

outside the European Union. Most of

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the global growth in the world will

happen outside the EU. Why do you

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think you know better than people

who have experienced the EU? What

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happened to young people that you

are willing to side with the

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political interests of organisations

like Goldman Sachs who cooked the

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books on the Euro? Young people are,

in your case, slavishly following

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what the European Union says and

signing up to what they say, rather

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than challenging the elites and

questioning the power?

I think it is

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very easy to dismiss young people

because we have not had as much

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experience as Older People.

You just

said you knew more than older

0:18:360:18:40

people.

That is a misconstruing of

what I said, I said I might have

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been more informed than some of the

adults, not all of them, but some,

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who voted on Brexit. With my

knowledge of what the Brexited

0:18:490:18:54

Tameka Brexit negotiations could

have meant then, it was unfortunate

0:18:540:18:57

I was denied the opportunity to

vote. As a young person who will

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have to deal with the consequences

of Brexit, whichever way they go, I

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think it is only fair that I have a

chance to share my boys. I think it

0:19:040:19:09

is very important that the British

people know what they decide on when

0:19:090:19:12

we leave the EU. -- I think it is

only fair that I have a chance to

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share my voice.

If I give you a

contribution with no partiality, I

0:19:170:19:22

am completely impartial, it was a

brilliant contribution and thank you

0:19:220:19:25

for making a -- I thank you for your

contribution with no partiality. You

0:19:250:19:32

had stood your ground against Robert

Olds, a doughty and experienced

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campaigner. You are a member of The

Bruges Group, named after a speech

0:19:370:19:44

by Margaret Thatcher who invented

the single market? She would have

0:19:440:19:48

been a Remainer?

Margaret Thatcher

was leaving the EU. She campaigned

0:19:480:19:54

in 1975 to remain but later changed

her mind. In her book, she was quite

0:19:540:20:01

clear. I knew Margaret Thatcher, I

know she was for Leave because she

0:20:010:20:07

wanted this country to decide its

own future.

You knew Margaret

0:20:070:20:11

Thatcher and we are apparently the

elite?! This is hilarious. It is now

0:20:110:20:15

the political elites delivering

Brexit. Both major parties right now

0:20:150:20:19

are pro-Brexit, there is not a big

voice for staying in beyond the two

0:20:190:20:25

big parties.

The two major parties

have manifestos to get on and leave.

0:20:250:20:30

The people of this party,

consistently since the election last

0:20:300:20:34

year where Theresa May clearly lost

a mandate for the extreme Brexit she

0:20:340:20:37

has been peddling but pushing

anyway, the people are nudging in

0:20:370:20:41

favour of staying in.

That is not

true.

0:20:410:20:43

ALL TALK AT ONCE

0:20:430:20:50

ALL TALK AT ONCE

Over 80% of the

voters voted for parties pledging to

0:20:500:20:53

take Britain out of the EU and the

single market.

0:20:530:20:56

Because we have a two party system.

Those were the manifestos.

You say

0:20:560:21:01

you speak for all young people, only

9% of people under 25 voted for the

0:21:010:21:06

Lib Dems. The rest of us voted for

the main parties promising to

0:21:060:21:10

deliver Brexit. People have voted

twice to come out of the EU, why

0:21:100:21:14

won't you listen?

ALL TALK AT ONCE

A tactical vote

0:21:140:21:19

last year against the Conservative

Party.

0:21:190:21:23

It is this conflict between what

they think and what their

0:21:230:21:27

constituents think and what their

manifesto has said, it is difficult?

0:21:270:21:32

There are plenty of people in the

Labour Party who want to remain, and

0:21:320:21:36

plenty of people who voted Labour

thinking Labour wanted to remain.

0:21:360:21:39

Jeremy Corbyn has been taking this

rather dodgy line between trying not

0:21:390:21:43

to offend too many people either

side. To suggest the general

0:21:430:21:47

election result was a mandate for

the extreme Brexit that Theresa May

0:21:470:21:51

is still pursuing is a fantasy.

What

is an extreme Brexit?

Out of the

0:21:510:21:57

single market, out of the customs

union, voting to break up the

0:21:570:22:01

Northern Ireland peace agreement.

That is extreme. If we had a Prime

0:22:010:22:04

Minister who wanted to bring the

country together, she could have

0:22:040:22:08

pursued the so-called no Wayne

Mardle when you are still inside the

0:22:080:22:11

single market. There was no mandate

for the extreme Brexit she is

0:22:110:22:15

pursuing. I have heard Dan Hannan,

the MEP from the Conservative Party,

0:22:150:22:20

regularly saying, as Femi said,

there is no reason to lead the

0:22:200:22:24

single market. -- to leave the

single market. The leaders of the

0:22:240:22:29

Leave campaign never set out,

deliberately, what Leave would look

0:22:290:22:32

like. It is very different from the

Scottish referendum. The people who

0:22:320:22:39

wanted independence set out a big

manifesto of what it would look like

0:22:390:22:41

so you knew the details. This was

deliberately not done in this vote

0:22:410:22:44

so that people could play at how

they want. Rather than calling it a

0:22:440:22:48

second referendum, we need a vote on

the final deal. It is voting on the

0:22:480:22:52

detail...

There were lots of imponderables

0:22:520:22:57

about the Scottish referendum. The

pound, the future of oil, the future

0:22:570:23:03

with the EU.

The idea there is no

mandate for hard Brexit or, as I

0:23:030:23:08

like to call, Brexit, is just for

the birds. 17.4 million people voted

0:23:080:23:11

to leave the EU, the most people who

have ever voted for everything ever

0:23:110:23:16

in this country.

Not all of those

voted to leave the market.

0:23:160:23:19

ALL TALK AT ONCE

The slogan for the

Leave campaign was to take back

0:23:190:23:26

control, which you cannot if you are

in the single market and Customs

0:23:260:23:29

union.

Their idea of a mandate for the

0:23:290:23:31

second referendum or pulling is out

of the European Union is ridiculous.

0:23:310:23:35

It is not a second referendum.

According to YouGov, about 18% want

0:23:350:23:41

a second referendum under 16% want

stop it entirely. This is not

0:23:410:23:47

Leavers versus Remainers macro, this

is Democrats against anti-democrat.

0:23:470:23:51

The thing about Brexit, this

energised a section of the

0:23:510:23:56

electorate who had not made their

voices heard for a very long time,

0:23:560:23:59

who felt completely passed by

politics. They recognise this as an

0:23:590:24:03

opportunity...

Do you support

proportional representation, a feral

0:24:030:24:08

goat?

UK bringing in another point

to finish.

Is Brexit does not

0:24:080:24:12

happen, if there is a stitch up, a

waiter is avoided, you will destroy

0:24:120:24:16

the idea of democracy in this

country for a generation. -- a

0:24:160:24:20

stitch up, a way it is avoided.

If

this poll is somehow

0:24:200:24:26

anti-democratic, will he supports

proportional representation, there

0:24:260:24:30

voting? That is how you get to hear

people the whole year round. The

0:24:300:24:33

reason so many people took part in

the Brexit votes is that they knew

0:24:330:24:37

it would count for once, it has not

in successive... I would love to

0:24:370:24:41

know if you would like people's vote

to camp the whole time around?

What

0:24:410:24:46

is the difference between a

referendum and the People's poll?

I

0:24:460:24:50

am using the words People's poll

because I want to get away from the

0:24:500:24:55

idea that we are rerunning the same

question from June 20 16. The

0:24:550:24:58

question on the ballot paper will be

on the detail...

It is another

0:24:580:25:01

referendum asking a different

question.

That is why do not like

0:25:010:25:05

the word second referendum, it

sounds like rerunning the first

0:25:050:25:10

referendum.

It has the option to

keep this in the EU, despite people

0:25:100:25:14

voting...

Before we start signing

proper trade deals with President,

0:25:140:25:18

what is his name, president at our

day, the mass murdering president of

0:25:180:25:23

the Philippines, Liam Fox says we

share common values. Before we

0:25:230:25:30

signed deals with human rights

abuses and murder across the world,

0:25:300:25:36

shouldn't we take stock?

We should

take stock of what the British

0:25:360:25:39

people voted for when it was clearly

explained that voting to leave the

0:25:390:25:43

EU would mean coming out of the

single market and the customs union.

0:25:430:25:47

The British people want free trade,

they always have. They have always

0:25:470:25:51

been open-minded to the rest of the

world and the global future. Talking

0:25:510:25:55

about trade deals with other

countries is instinctive to Britain.

0:25:550:25:58

Going back over 100 years there were

free trade Hall set up around the

0:25:580:26:03

country in Manchester... People want

to be open to the rest of the world,

0:26:030:26:09

that is where the future lies, not

the EU.

Wasn't it is likeable,

0:26:090:26:15

located by Matt? Eloise?

Does the

future lie with people like Trump,

0:26:150:26:19

trading with them, who will put up

trade tariffs when it suits them,

0:26:190:26:23

really hurting industries in this

country? We have been sold a pup

0:26:230:26:27

when it comes to the opportunities

beyond the EU for trade. You had to

0:26:270:26:30

listen to the Japanese ambassador in

Downing Street who

0:26:300:26:43

said companies will leave this

country if it is no longer

0:26:460:26:48

profitable to trade. The car

industry is under threat, so many

0:26:480:26:51

other manufacturing industries are

under threat if we are threatening

0:26:510:26:53

to come out of the single market.

Manufacturing has increased since

0:26:530:26:55

the referendum, exports have

increased.

It is not Project Fear,

0:26:550:26:57

people were not told the realities

about the opportunities for us. We

0:26:570:27:00

could be in the EE you as one of the

most impactful, influential leaders

0:27:000:27:06

there, writing legislation for other

countries and ourselves in issues

0:27:060:27:09

that we care about... We could be in

the EU as.

If we went back in, the

0:27:090:27:16

bitterness and resentment among

those people who sincerely believe

0:27:160:27:19

we should not be in their because of

the whole project, can you imagine?

0:27:190:27:25

The sense of betrayal...

What about

if in ten years' time we are rooted

0:27:250:27:32

to the bottom of the economic

strata, like we are now. What if it

0:27:320:27:36

gets worse and what if there is the

joblessness and the NHS...

The

0:27:360:27:41

joblessness that young people have

in southern Europe because of the

0:27:410:27:46

European Union, young people are out

of work in some countries as much

0:27:460:27:50

as...

It is because they are in the

euro.

We should show solidarity to

0:27:500:27:56

young people on the continent who

have suffered.

Another country said

0:27:560:28:03

they were in with a load of opt

outs, now they are out they want a

0:28:030:28:07

lot of opt ins.

This is the whole

question about the negotiation. I do

0:28:070:28:12

not think the negotiations are going

well, I do not think they can go

0:28:120:28:16

well insofar as the EU is not

interested in making a good deal of

0:28:160:28:19

us. It is interested in humiliating

us for the sake of making sure no

0:28:190:28:23

other member states bowled for the

door. This fantastic study before

0:28:230:28:28

Christmas, led by the very venerated

pollster John Curtice, found that

0:28:280:28:34

although people are very pessimistic

about the short-term economic

0:28:340:28:38

outcomes of Brexit, they wanted to

happen because they are Democrats.

0:28:380:28:42

Democracy is at stake, you are

trying to subvert it.

I am so sorry,

0:28:420:28:48

we have to leave it there, with a

rosy vision of the future. Will we

0:28:480:28:52

be a wealthier country in ten years'

time as a result of this?

We will be

0:28:520:28:57

free to decide alone future, that is

the most important.

Wealthier?

0:28:570:29:03

Hopefully.

Thank you all very much

indeed.

0:29:030:29:04

If you have something

to say about that debate,

0:29:040:29:07

log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

then follow the link

0:29:070:29:09

to where you can join

in the discussion online.

0:29:090:29:11

Or contribute on Twitter.

0:29:110:29:12

Next, here at Sussex University's

Attenborough Centre,

0:29:120:29:13

we'll be debating whether doctors

or parents should decide

0:29:130:29:16

when to withdraw life-sustaining

treatment for children.

0:29:160:29:18

But before that, make a note

of this email address -

0:29:180:29:20

[email protected] -

if you'd like to apply

0:29:200:29:22

to be in the audience

at a future programme.

0:29:220:29:25

We're in Glasgow next Sunday then,

after a break for Easter,

0:29:250:29:28

we're in York on April eighth

for two shows, the usual live

0:29:280:29:31

edition in the morning

and a pre-recorded special

0:29:310:29:33

on the National Health

Service in the afternoon.

0:29:330:29:35

It's a similar pattern on April 29th

from Salford, where the special

0:29:350:29:38

will probe masculinity.

0:29:380:29:43

And on May 13th from Birmingham,

it's two shows again,

0:29:430:29:46

with a special on robotics

and artificial intelligence.

0:29:460:29:54

Everyone applauds the advances

in medicine that have enabled many

0:29:580:30:01

more children to survive premature

births, congenital abnormalities

0:30:010:30:03

and serious illnesses.

0:30:030:30:05

There are many children alive today

enjoying full and healthy lives

0:30:050:30:08

who would have died just

a decade ago.

0:30:080:30:13

This is undoubtedly a good thing,

but it has raised the expectation

0:30:130:30:16

that doctors not only can do

something but should do something

0:30:160:30:18

to prolong the life of a sick child.

0:30:180:30:20

Some of these tragic cases are now

ending up in the courts

0:30:200:30:23

when the parents want the doctors

to do more for their child than

0:30:230:30:26

the doctors feel is right for them.

0:30:260:30:31

Last year, Charlie Gard's parents

lost their case against

0:30:310:30:33

Great Ormond Street Children's

Hospital.

0:30:330:30:34

It caused a storm on Twitter

and even garnered support

0:30:340:30:37

from President Trump and Pope

Francis.

0:30:370:30:44

Last week, one-year-old

Isaiah Haastrup died

0:30:440:30:45

when the European Court

of Human Rights refused his parents'

0:30:450:30:47

appeal to keep him on life support.

0:30:470:30:49

And this week the case

of 22-month-old brain-damaged

0:30:490:30:51

Alfie Evans has been referred

to the Supreme Court for a decision

0:30:510:30:54

as to whether his life

support can be turned off.

0:30:540:30:59

On Thursday night,

0:30:590:31:04

Channel 4 showed the first of two

documentaries

0:31:040:31:06

filmed at Southampton

Children's Hospital

0:31:060:31:09

Intensive Care Unit,

0:31:090:31:11

where these difficult decisions have

to be faced by parents,

0:31:110:31:14

doctors and nurses every day.

0:31:140:31:18

In this clip we meet Tallulah,

0:31:180:31:20

who survived a very premature birth,

0:31:200:31:22

and her dad, James.

0:31:220:31:30

As a result of a premature birth,

she cannot breathe for herself, she

0:31:350:31:39

is kept alive on a life-support

machine which breeds for her, it is

0:31:390:31:43

uncertain if she will ever manage on

her own or how her brain will

0:31:430:31:47

develop.

She was born at one lb,

five years ago she would have been

0:31:470:31:54

dead. She would not have had the

machines to keep her alive. We don't

0:31:540:31:59

know what ten years is going to

hold, we don't know what tomorrow is

0:31:590:32:02

going to hold. We just take every

day as it comes.

Well, hello, I was

0:32:020:32:14

privileged to see a photograph of

your daughter this morning, the most

0:32:140:32:17

beautiful smile on her face,

beautiful little girl, what has she

0:32:170:32:23

been through?

It has been ups and

downs from the word go, we have been

0:32:230:32:28

in hospital 26 months, we have only

been home since November but we have

0:32:280:32:32

been told she won't make it, she

will make it, it is working, it is

0:32:320:32:38

not working, in and out of comas...

I could not have expected this at

0:32:380:32:42

the start, I did not know anything

like this could happen to children

0:32:420:32:46

so young, until I was in the

situation. And then we are coping

0:32:460:32:52

with it each day now.

What is she

like?

She has her own personality,

0:32:520:32:57

she loves television, she claps and

sings along. She dances along,

0:32:570:33:04

sorry, two songs, she plays with her

little sister. She interacts with me

0:33:040:33:08

and Rhianna very well, she has a

good quality of life. She is

0:33:080:33:14

enjoying her time at home.

Was it

right that yesterday, she was making

0:33:140:33:20

noises along to the Teletubbies?

Yes, she cannot quite speak, she

0:33:200:33:24

kind of croaks, almost squeaks, but

she does try to sing along to it.

0:33:240:33:34

And she has a track your to me, for

her life support?

Yes, straight into

0:33:340:33:40

her throat, and 24-hour care, so we

have had two nights of cancelled

0:33:400:33:47

carers, so we have been up to

nights, pretty much, and then work,

0:33:470:33:51

and then here today.

Thank you so

much for coming. On the programme,

0:33:510:33:57

some tough bits, apart from seeing

these beautiful children, and

0:33:570:34:03

focusing on the moral and ethical

issues, one particular one of those,

0:34:030:34:06

which was raised, was by some of the

doctors about resources. And the

0:34:060:34:12

amount of money that it costs to

keep some of these children live.

0:34:120:34:18

Given the fact that there is a

finite amount of money and other

0:34:180:34:21

children are not getting the support

they might get, who might have a

0:34:210:34:26

better chance of survival. Such a

difficult subject to broach, doctors

0:34:260:34:30

were tiptoeing towards it, when you

hear that debate, do you find it

0:34:300:34:35

callous, in a way?

Everything does

cost, so all these machines do cost

0:34:350:34:44

a lot of money to run, but no one

can put a price on a family member

0:34:440:34:48

to live. At the end of the day, you

have little bits and bobs that she

0:34:480:34:55

will use every day that is quite

pricey, but it is all worth it. She

0:34:550:35:00

has a good quality of life. There is

no one that should live over someone

0:35:000:35:06

else. It doesn't work like that.

It

needs to be addressed, but then

0:35:060:35:13

there is other places, such as

resources going out to people having

0:35:130:35:18

gastric bands fitted, Friday and

Saturday night down pubs and clubs,

0:35:180:35:23

the Ambulance Service there.

All of

them that are self-inflicted. And

0:35:230:35:30

these children do not ask to be ill.

So, I don't know why we are

0:35:300:35:35

questioning the money going out to

the children. They don't ask for any

0:35:350:35:40

of this help or care, they are the

ones getting it.

APPLAUSE

0:35:400:35:48

Peter, you featured in the

programme, Dr Peta Coulson-Smith,

0:35:510:35:57

University of Southampton, clinical

ethics, James was so articulate with

0:35:570:36:03

that, and any of us would do

anything we possibly could to extend

0:36:030:36:06

the life of our child in that

situation, various different

0:36:060:36:12

situations, what about this debate

about resources, which comes up

0:36:120:36:15

again and again and again, people

like you, tiptoeing towards it, but

0:36:150:36:20

you also say it is important to

discuss it, why is it important?

I

0:36:200:36:26

think there are no easy answers in

any of this debate. As a doctor, as

0:36:260:36:34

a paediatrician, at the bedside,

resources do not come into the

0:36:340:36:40

equation, the NHS, the beauty of the

NHS is that it is free at the point

0:36:400:36:44

of delivery. Really, I think part of

the issue is the fact we cannot talk

0:36:440:36:49

about it in the hospitals. It is

something that has to happen at a

0:36:490:36:53

national and political level, and we

need to have strategies to develop

0:36:530:37:00

answers about this. The costs are

increasing...

Three quarters of a

0:37:000:37:05

million, that is the cost.

For

somebody with long-term ventilation

0:37:050:37:11

with a track your to me, as you

mentioned, around £500,000 a year.

0:37:110:37:17

And that is for basic care. If the

child then needed hospitalisation on

0:37:170:37:24

top of that, for a chest infection,

for instance, there would be another

0:37:240:37:30

cost as well. It is a really

difficult conversation. It is

0:37:300:37:37

something we as doctors

0:37:370:37:43

something we as doctors and as

ethicsists to not have answers, the

0:37:440:37:47

only way to do it is to have

discussions, that is why this

0:37:470:37:51

programme has been so great to

highlight this. -- ethicists.

One of

0:37:510:37:59

the things that people are saying is

that there are children not being

0:37:590:38:03

treated who may have a better

prognosis, and they are not being

0:38:030:38:07

treated because some are, is that a

fact?

It is difficult to answer that

0:38:070:38:12

in a sense, because there is no

direct consequence, when you are

0:38:120:38:16

delivering treatment for a child, on

an intensive care unit, there is no

0:38:160:38:21

direct consequence that you can see

as a doctor, but there is a

0:38:210:38:27

consequence, of course, that those

resources are being used for

0:38:270:38:32

something which is not going to

another area. And it feels quite

0:38:320:38:39

callous, speaking about it, in

financial terms, and I just think

0:38:390:38:43

that it is something that we all

need to discuss and think about,

0:38:430:38:48

where we want NHS resources to go,

because what we are talking about is

0:38:480:38:52

a subgroup of children, a very small

amount of children, that we are

0:38:520:38:57

talking about here. The numbers have

doubled, approximately, in the last

0:38:570:39:01

ten years, of children having

long-term ventilation.

Should

0:39:010:39:07

doctors decide, all parents?

Whether

to withdraw life-sustaining

0:39:070:39:12

treatment? Ultimately, I think

doctors to decide. But, the caveat

0:39:120:39:19

to that is that the parents views

are central to any decision that is

0:39:190:39:26

made. It is a collaborative

decision, it is something that

0:39:260:39:31

nobody wants to talk about, it is

something that is incredibly

0:39:310:39:38

difficult, and the child's best

interests are absolutely at the

0:39:380:39:40

forefront of every decision that is

made.

0:39:400:39:51

Lubna, location or son had his

life-support removed, did you feel

0:39:520:39:56

that it was a collaborative

decision?

My son was five months old

0:39:560:40:02

when he passed away, when he was two

weeks old he got really sick, ended

0:40:020:40:06

up having an operation, at that

point they said to me he will not

0:40:060:40:11

make it, but he came back and he was

OK. And I think, for them to say

0:40:110:40:17

that to a parent, that your child is

not going to make it, no one wants

0:40:170:40:23

to hear that, no parent wants to

hear that. But just before he got

0:40:230:40:28

sick, the night before, I did say to

them, he is not well. They did not

0:40:280:40:32

listen to me. So the next day, when

they did realise he was not well, it

0:40:320:40:38

was quite late. But he was fine

after his operation. He made it off

0:40:380:40:46

the ventilator, as well,

unfortunately, he went back on it.

0:40:460:40:51

And when they said to me, he's not

going to make it, and if he does,

0:40:510:40:56

maybe he will be disabled, I said,

well, that is my child. I don't

0:40:560:41:00

care. I want him, do what you can.

At that point I said, could I gather

0:41:000:41:09

opinion from another doctor. But

they refused, they said, you will

0:41:090:41:13

get the same answer from everybody,

which I thought was unfair. Because

0:41:130:41:19

now, it is like, what if, what if

someone said something different. It

0:41:190:41:23

will always be there. I ended up

losing my child, because they then

0:41:230:41:27

decided that they were going to

withdraw care. And we had to make a

0:41:270:41:34

decision of what time and when.

Which I don't think was fair,

0:41:340:41:40

really, but, the doctors were

brilliant, but sometimes they should

0:41:400:41:46

listen to parents. I was his mother.

As a mother, I know what my child is

0:41:460:41:54

going through...

And you understand,

you are going to look after your son

0:41:540:42:01

for the rest of his life am a you

understand the invitations and

0:42:010:42:06

consequences because you are going

home with him.

Yes.

Do you think

0:42:060:42:11

because of that, the decision should

be with you?

I think so, yes.

What

0:42:110:42:20

was the moment like, when there was

nothing you could do...

It is the

0:42:200:42:24

worst thing that can happen to a

parent, if they did give me an

0:42:240:42:28

option of getting another opinion,

and that opinion was the same as

0:42:280:42:33

what they said, it would have made

me feel better, does that make

0:42:330:42:37

sense? But I did not get that

option. So, for that, it is done

0:42:370:42:46

now, but I will never forget, he's

my baby. And I got five months with

0:42:460:42:55

him, that will never be enough for

any parent, it is the worst thing

0:42:550:43:00

that a mother can go through.

0:43:000:43:07

that a mother can go through. I

think a parent should get that

0:43:070:43:11

chance, they should decide what

happens with their child, basically.

0:43:110:43:16

Always?

Of course.

Steph Nimmo,

Daisy had her life-support removed,

0:43:160:43:25

seven years old.

She was 12 when she

had the life-support removed. Seven

0:43:250:43:30

years old when she was referred to

palliative care. She was born with a

0:43:300:43:34

really rare genetic disease, we did

not know prenatally that she would

0:43:340:43:39

have this.

Who should have the

decision? Let me start at that

0:43:390:43:42

question.

I was lucky, I had a lot

longer with my daughter, and she

0:43:420:43:47

took us to the edge, many times, but

because we were referred to

0:43:470:43:52

palliative care very early on, there

was, as Peta said, there was

0:43:520:44:00

collaborative conversations, because

much of it is so difficult, you have

0:44:000:44:04

to take the emotion out of it. I was

Daisy's mother.

Who can do that?

It

0:44:040:44:13

is impossible, you have to bring

down a barrier because you

0:44:130:44:15

desperately want to do the right

thing for your child and some time,

0:44:150:44:19

doing the right thing for your tile

is actually being incredibly

0:44:190:44:22

selfless and letting them go. And

how can a parent make that decision

0:44:220:44:27

on their own? And didn't fact, I was

on my own at the end, my husband had

0:44:270:44:33

died before Daisy died, so during

all this journey, I was living with

0:44:330:44:37

this child that I knew was going to

die, then my husband died. And I was

0:44:370:44:42

aware that I was going to come to

this... If I had not been surrounded

0:44:420:44:46

by an incredible team of

professionals, and we could talk

0:44:460:44:49

through in the cold light of day

what would happen, what would it be

0:44:490:44:52

like? Daisy was on a form of

life-support called total parental

0:44:520:44:58

nutrition, she received all her

nutrition intravenously, through a

0:44:580:45:02

line into her bloodstream, 24/7, and

she was very aware of what was going

0:45:020:45:07

on, although she had a learning

disability, she had an incredible

0:45:070:45:11

quality of life, she had opinions on

things, she lived a very joyful

0:45:110:45:17

life, but I had always said to her

palliative consultant, when those

0:45:170:45:21

moments get compressed, when the

moments of joy gets compressed, I

0:45:210:45:24

know that we are coming to the end,

and... But we just did not know when

0:45:240:45:28

the end would be. As it was, it

happened quite quickly. For me, she

0:45:280:45:33

had a cardiac arrest, the doctors

said, we can keep resuscitating pots

0:45:330:45:37

are on dialysis... I said, no, we

have two let her go. -- keep

0:45:370:45:43

resuscitating, put her on dialysis.

0:45:430:45:49

I feel in many ways I was fortunate

because I had a lot longer with her,

0:45:500:45:54

but I also had many opportunities to

have very difficult conversations

0:45:540:45:58

with the palliative team, the team

who cared for her and grew to know

0:45:580:46:02

as both, at the end I felt it was

very much a collaborative decision,

0:46:020:46:05

it was just the right thing to do

for my child in the end.

That they

0:46:050:46:10

must have been awful?

It was

horrific. I was on my own, three

0:46:100:46:15

other children who had

0:46:150:46:23

other children who had already gone

through a huge loss of their dad.

0:46:230:46:25

But in a way I feel that I gave my

daughter a good death. We had

0:46:250:46:28

prepared for it, we had planned for

it. She was in pain and we let her

0:46:280:46:31

go. People ask if I would have her

back, no, because she would still be

0:46:310:46:36

in pain, still deteriorating, she

would no longer have the

0:46:360:46:38

quality-of-life that she had. She

had an amazing 12 years and gave as

0:46:380:46:42

an amazing 12 years, and thanks to

the NHS who kept her alive. When she

0:46:420:46:47

was first born we were told she

would probably not see a year, she

0:46:470:46:51

gave as 12 incredible years and

taught us so much about ourselves. I

0:46:510:46:58

felt it was her time, but, as I say,

the support of excellent palliative

0:46:580:47:03

care team allowed us... Allowed me

to be at peace with that decision at

0:47:030:47:06

the end, which was incredibly

important.

But we can so much

0:47:060:47:12

understand Lubna 's situation, which

is different.

There is no right or

0:47:120:47:16

wrong. I think it is really

important that we have these

0:47:160:47:22

conversations and we reflect that

actually sometimes children do not

0:47:220:47:25

make it out of the neonatal unit.

Medical prop -- medical science, I

0:47:250:47:31

think the doctor says in the

programme we can keep them alive but

0:47:310:47:34

not cure them.

What about the

situation we brought up earlier and

0:47:340:47:38

Peter acknowledged, such a delicate

area and we want to tread so

0:47:380:47:42

carefully, quite properly and

rightly, because that whole issue of

0:47:420:47:46

NHS resources... As I say it now it

is a difficult thing to say. What

0:47:460:47:55

are your thoughts? I only say it

because the doctors in the programme

0:47:550:48:01

wants people to discuss it.

And I

absolutely empathise with those

0:48:010:48:05

doctors, I thought the programme was

brilliant because the doctors don't

0:48:050:48:09

get the opportunity to show their

point of view, with all the social

0:48:090:48:13

media and the publicity around these

big cases of the doctors are not

0:48:130:48:17

allowed to comment. I think it is

really interesting for us to see the

0:48:170:48:21

dilemmas the doctors have, because

they absolutely car. But their hands

0:48:210:48:25

are tied, they have pressures. We

all know there is

0:48:250:48:34

all know there is huge pressure on

intensive care beds. Time and time

0:48:360:48:38

again, Daisy would be scheduled the

surgery, she always needed intensive

0:48:380:48:40

care after surgery, that there would

be no bed available and so the

0:48:400:48:44

surgery would be cancelled because

it is such a specialised area.

There

0:48:440:48:47

was a great quote from one of the

doctors which summed it up

0:48:470:48:51

amazingly, he said very quietly and

very thoughtfully and there was a

0:48:510:48:54

lot of sadness when he said our

capacity to support life now exceeds

0:48:540:48:59

our ability to treat the underlying

disease.

That is exactly it. Well we

0:48:590:49:06

are making incredible advances in

medical science, what we are not

0:49:060:49:10

catching up with is what we do want

these children leave.

And it raises

0:49:100:49:16

the expectations of parents. Peter,

I do not know if you have a view,

0:49:160:49:20

the new phenomenon in this, the

social media campaigns, very often

0:49:200:49:25

the involvement of religious groups,

social media campaigns. -- Peta, I

0:49:250:49:30

do not know if you have a view.

President Trump got involved. Does

0:49:300:49:34

it cloud the issue?

It makes it so

difficult for the parents. I put a

0:49:340:49:40

lot of trust and faith in the

medical team that surrounded me. It

0:49:400:49:43

is like when you're pregnant,

everybody wants to give you an

0:49:430:49:46

opinion on what you should and

should not do. You open up to the

0:49:460:49:50

world stage and the poor parents

stuck in the middle, you lose sight

0:49:500:49:55

of what is the right thing to do,

the emotion takes over.

Charlie

0:49:550:50:02

Gard, some of the medics there, the

medical practitioners, had death

0:50:020:50:08

threats?

The false hope that comes

through from the social media

0:50:080:50:12

campaigns is unbelievable. As you

know, it is a long process and you

0:50:120:50:18

know absolutely everything that is

going on. People in social media do

0:50:180:50:23

not know the ins and outs. The

doctors... I could not ask for

0:50:230:50:27

better care, I could not asked to be

informed more. But this false hope,

0:50:270:50:31

people putting in their two Panis,

it is giving a dream that is not

0:50:310:50:35

even bear in the first place, that

is why it is such a disgusting

0:50:350:50:40

treatment of the Paris -- everybody

is putting in their 2p worth. I do

0:50:400:50:45

not think it should be done.

Individual family should be kept in

0:50:450:50:49

the circle they are in. Be informed

as much as they ran and can't -- as

0:50:490:50:54

much as they are and come to a

decision and a way forward, just

0:50:540:50:58

them.

Yeah.

APPLAUSE

0:50:580:51:04

Dr MacKenzie Graham, I want to

discuss with you this issue about

0:51:040:51:08

what is a quality of life?

Where do we set the bar? Because if

0:51:080:51:12

a little child has a tactile world

of cuddles and smiles but can't

0:51:120:51:22

communicate and has tubes, that is a

quality of life for a human being?

0:51:220:51:26

In a certain respect we might think

that some of these young children...

0:51:260:51:31

Maybe their capacity for well-being

is diminished compared to what a

0:51:310:51:35

perfectly healthy Child could

experience, but you are right.

0:51:350:51:39

Unless it is a life of complete

suffering there is certainly some

0:51:390:51:42

value. Just being held by the

parents, they can feel tactile

0:51:420:51:48

pleasure. Things like that. Back

contributes to value. I wanted to

0:51:480:51:54

remark on something like Peta said,

the best interests of the child are

0:51:540:52:00

foremost. That is a values question,

to me, and I think that discussion

0:52:000:52:07

needs to happen between physicians

and parents, because physicians will

0:52:070:52:12

be the authority on clinical facts,

here's what you can expect with

0:52:120:52:16

respect to what your child's life

will be like. But I think it is up

0:52:160:52:20

to the parents to determine what

they feel, according to their own

0:52:200:52:26

values, what is necessary for their

child's quality of life, because we

0:52:260:52:31

will each judge that differently.

Because the parents have to support

0:52:310:52:38

the children, you guys are under a

tremendous burden. I get the sense

0:52:380:52:42

that maybe you were not quite

sure...

It is not a burden, it is

0:52:420:52:48

our daughter, I don't like that

word. No, but there is so much

0:52:480:52:51

stress. It is so hard on a daily

basis. I have to... I have two

0:52:510:53:02

daughters, one of which is disabled.

My other half is the carer in the

0:53:020:53:06

daytime. I have to work a lot,

support them all, plus we had to go

0:53:060:53:11

with the other factors in this

thing. It is such a hard thing to do

0:53:110:53:15

on a daily basis, so I can see some

people that might not be able to

0:53:150:53:19

cope. They had to think of the

bigger picture and how they will be

0:53:190:53:22

in two years when you go home. Like

I said, our carers cancelled on is

0:53:220:53:31

the last two nights. No one but me

and Rhianna will have to stay awake

0:53:310:53:34

to look after her. Once you are out

of hospital you are very much on

0:53:340:53:37

your own, that is where Rick gets

hard.

If I can, when we are talking

0:53:370:53:41

about what is the best interests of

a child, that is an extremely high

0:53:410:53:46

standard, doing the best possible

for a child. You have your other

0:53:460:53:50

children to consider so there will

be trade-offs between interests.

0:53:500:53:54

Providing the child is not suffering

an unacceptable level of harm, if we

0:53:540:54:01

think of it in terms...

What if the

child is suffering and the doctors

0:54:010:54:05

say this is terrible, but the

parents want the child to stay

0:54:050:54:09

alive?

I think that is where the

threshold is. I am not a parent but

0:54:090:54:13

based on what I am hearing I can

imagine that parents feel like this

0:54:130:54:17

is my child, I need to do everything

I can for this child because that is

0:54:170:54:22

my responsibility, I love this

child.

If I were in that situation,

0:54:220:54:30

it would take some convincing.

It

can make it very difficult to remain

0:54:300:54:34

as objective as you can in

emotionally fraught situations like

0:54:340:54:38

this. Provided there is not this

level of suffering, it is up to the

0:54:380:54:42

parents. But sometimes it needs to

be taken out of the hands of the

0:54:420:54:46

parents if the child is suffering.

As a leading politician, Caroline,

0:54:460:54:54

does the debate about NHS resources

and how much we put into the NHS and

0:54:540:54:58

how much we prioritise that

politically come into that?

I think

0:54:580:55:06

it has to somewhere. It is an

incredibly difficult conversation,

0:55:060:55:09

even more difficult when you are

talking about specific cases rather

0:55:090:55:13

than more of an academic discussion,

but it has to come into it

0:55:130:55:17

somewhere. I think in terms of the

process, what Steph was describing

0:55:170:55:26

of the collaboration between

hospital staff and parents, that

0:55:260:55:30

needs to be strived for. But if

parents are disagreeing with the

0:55:300:55:34

medical profession over the future

of the Child and if we are to put

0:55:340:55:38

the well-being of the child and the

rights of the child at the heart,

0:55:380:55:41

then sometimes I can see the role of

the courts. I know this seems to be

0:55:410:55:49

very callous, but it is enormously

difficult. Sometimes it is the right

0:55:490:55:57

time to say goodbye and it is kinder

to let go. For a parent to make that

0:55:570:56:04

choice on the road is immensely

difficult. We are not in a world of

0:56:040:56:10

black-and-white, these are

judgments, shades of grey, they are

0:56:100:56:13

difficult, it is not just good guys

and bad guys, as you would hear on

0:56:130:56:17

social media. Everybody is trying to

do their best for your child. If

0:56:170:56:21

there was a disagreement between the

parents and the medical staff than I

0:56:210:56:24

think we should take it to the

courts.

I think one of the doctors

0:56:240:56:27

said I would of course fight tooth

and nail to keep my child alive, but

0:56:270:56:33

I would want the doctors to make the

decision.

I was just going to say

0:56:330:56:37

that I feel really sad to hear that

your experience was not this

0:56:370:56:43

collaborative approach and that you

feel like that decision... You were

0:56:430:56:49

not really part of that decision. I

would say that on the whole we get

0:56:490:56:55

it right, and I would say that on

the whole people are involved and

0:56:550:57:00

that was your experience.

Do you

think the social media campaigns

0:57:000:57:04

with false distrust of doctors, and

suspicion?

I really do. I think the

0:57:040:57:09

medical profession has been very

much demonised over the last few

0:57:090:57:13

years and that is why we embarked on

this programme with great

0:57:130:57:16

trepidation. We did not want to

compound that in any way. But I

0:57:160:57:21

think what it shows is a very

balanced view of children and

0:57:210:57:27

agreeing procedures, tracking

changes and some of the changes that

0:57:270:57:35

the parents, nursing staff and

doctors experience with these

0:57:350:57:38

children. I have seen lots of

campaign where there are headlines

0:57:380:57:47

such as Give The Child A Chance.

What you do not see is what the

0:57:470:57:52

level of suffering is. We do not see

the individual case. James said

0:57:520:57:56

really nicely earlier about we need

to see each child individually,

0:57:560:58:04

their own circumstances, situations,

family setup, everything.

As

0:58:040:58:08

Caroline said, not the black and

white. Thank you all so much for

0:58:080:58:12

coming in and speaking so honestly,

it is such an important debate. I...

0:58:120:58:18

I will never forget that picture you

showed me a trailer this morning

0:58:180:58:21

with the snow behind her and such a

big, beaming, beautiful smile. She

0:58:210:58:26

is such a beautiful little girl.

Thank you very much indeed, James.

0:58:260:58:30

As always, the debates will continue

online and on Twitter.

0:58:300:58:32

Next week we're in Glasgow,

so do join us then.

0:58:320:58:35

But for now, it's goodbye

and have a great Sunday.

0:58:350:58:37

Thank you so much for watching. That

was your Big Questions.

0:58:370:58:47

The Big Questions comes live from the University of Sussex in Brighton with Nicky Campbell asking:

Should the people have the final say on the terms of Brexit?

Should doctors decide when to withdraw life-saving treatment from children?