Nicky Campbell presents topical debate from University of Sussex, Brighton. Topics include should the people have the final say on the terms of Brexit.
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Today on The Big Questions: | 0:00:09 | 0:00:11 | |
Should the people have the final
say on the Brexit deal? | 0:00:11 | 0:00:13 | |
And, who should decide
whether a child's life-sustaining | 0:00:13 | 0:00:15 | |
treatment should be stopped? | 0:00:15 | 0:00:23 | |
Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell,
welcome to The Big Questions. | 0:00:31 | 0:00:34 | |
Today we're live from
the Attenborough Centre | 0:00:34 | 0:00:35 | |
at the University of Sussex. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:37 | |
Welcome, everybody,
to The Big Questions. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:44 | |
Here we go... | 0:00:47 | 0:00:48 | |
The debate over who should
have the final say over the Brexit | 0:00:48 | 0:00:51 | |
deal continues to rumble on. | 0:00:51 | 0:00:52 | |
This week the campaign group Best
for Britain launched a legal | 0:00:52 | 0:00:54 | |
challenge to make the government
concede a second vote on Brexit. | 0:00:54 | 0:01:01 | |
This comes on top of the private
member's bill tabled by the Labour | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
MP Geraint Davies calling
for a second referendum on whatever | 0:01:04 | 0:01:07 | |
the Brexit deal turns out to be,
plus a call from Caroline Lucas, | 0:01:07 | 0:01:10 | |
co-leader of the Greens,
for a people's poll on the final | 0:01:10 | 0:01:12 | |
deal because of its possible effect
on Northern Ireland. | 0:01:12 | 0:01:18 | |
Last year, Gina Miller's private
action against the Government | 0:01:18 | 0:01:20 | |
secured the right of Parliament
to a final vote on the Brexit deal. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
But given the ever-changing
demographics of the UK, | 0:01:23 | 0:01:27 | |
where those who were most likely
to have voted for Brexit are being | 0:01:27 | 0:01:30 | |
steadily replaced by young people, | 0:01:30 | 0:01:34 | |
who overwhelmingly favoured staying
in the EU, | 0:01:34 | 0:01:41 | |
we ask, | 0:01:41 | 0:01:44 | |
"Should the people have the final
say on the terms of Brexit?" | 0:01:44 | 0:01:50 | |
From Best for Britain, Chief
Executive, Eloise Todd, let's be | 0:01:50 | 0:01:54 | |
honest, that's arguable... (!)...
What is it about leave that you do | 0:01:54 | 0:02:00 | |
not understand, because the people
have voted. The people voted in 2016 | 0:02:00 | 0:02:05 | |
for an idea of what Brexit might be
by 2018 is looking really different, | 0:02:05 | 0:02:09 | |
it is only now that we are starting
to see what the invasion might be | 0:02:09 | 0:02:14 | |
for the country as a whole and for
families. We were told we would have | 0:02:14 | 0:02:19 | |
great opportunities of trading with
the US, looks more like steel | 0:02:19 | 0:02:23 | |
tariffs, trade wars, chlorinated
chicken. We were told we would have | 0:02:23 | 0:02:25 | |
a boost for the NHS, actually,
doctors and nurses are leaving, and | 0:02:25 | 0:02:29 | |
we do not have the financial input
we were expecting. We were also told | 0:02:29 | 0:02:35 | |
we would be able to take back
control but the deal being | 0:02:35 | 0:02:38 | |
negotiated by the government looks
an awful lot like staying in except | 0:02:38 | 0:02:41 | |
without the power to make those
decisions! We think because those | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
things are looking so different, the
people of this country needs to | 0:02:44 | 0:02:47 | |
finish this off and they need to
have a say on the new deal. APPLAUSE | 0:02:47 | 0:02:55 | |
The vote was on whether we stay or
go, it was not on the precise deal. | 0:02:55 | 0:03:00 | |
Exactly, that is exactly why we need
to have a vote now, it is only now | 0:03:00 | 0:03:05 | |
that the terms are becoming clear,
how could people have voted with all | 0:03:05 | 0:03:08 | |
the information they needed at hand.
It remains to be seen... It is | 0:03:08 | 0:03:14 | |
interesting in the newspapers that
there is so much about the way in | 0:03:14 | 0:03:18 | |
which Cambridge analytical work with
the Trump election and there will be | 0:03:18 | 0:03:21 | |
some analysis in terms of weather
that had implications for the Brexit | 0:03:21 | 0:03:26 | |
vote but regardless of that, we need
to look at what is on the table | 0:03:26 | 0:03:31 | |
right now, the government is only
now just getting a position | 0:03:31 | 0:03:34 | |
together. -- Cambridge Analytica.
People have a right to know what the | 0:03:34 | 0:03:38 | |
invitations are and let's face it,
how money people in this country | 0:03:38 | 0:03:42 | |
would trade peace in Northern
Ireland for a Brexit vote, that is | 0:03:42 | 0:03:47 | |
not something that was on the table!
That is an important part of this, | 0:03:47 | 0:03:50 | |
and we will be addressing that
shortly. Chloe, former head of | 0:03:50 | 0:03:58 | |
social media at about leave, Chloe
Westley, it is now emerging exactly | 0:03:58 | 0:04:02 | |
what this may mean, we did not know
that before, the precise details of | 0:04:02 | 0:04:07 | |
the deal are going to have an effect
on generations to come. -- at Vote | 0:04:07 | 0:04:10 | |
Leave. Surely we need to have the
chance to say whether we want this | 0:04:10 | 0:04:13 | |
particular deal or not. These calls
for a second referendum, it is a | 0:04:13 | 0:04:17 | |
plot to stop Brexit backs by the big
banks, Tony Blair, the political | 0:04:17 | 0:04:25 | |
elite, and... The political elite?
Tony Blair, John Major, the Brussels | 0:04:25 | 0:04:30 | |
elite, Alistair Campbell, a lot of
the big businesses, what possible | 0:04:30 | 0:04:34 | |
motivation with the EU how to
negotiate a good deal with us if | 0:04:34 | 0:04:38 | |
they knew that they could give us a
terrible deal and then we would vote | 0:04:38 | 0:04:41 | |
to stay in the EU anyway, all this
talk about democracy, it is | 0:04:41 | 0:04:46 | |
nonsense, you just want to stop
Brexit, just be open about that. I | 0:04:46 | 0:04:51 | |
like a silence! LAUGHTER
There is no answer, there is no | 0:04:51 | 0:04:57 | |
answer. I think you will find there
probably is from some other people | 0:04:57 | 0:05:00 | |
who believe they have an answer, but
a lot of people would agree with | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
what you have said, why not put it
to a popular vote, because there is | 0:05:03 | 0:05:08 | |
nothing undemocratic about that. I
thought that we did. We did, in June | 0:05:08 | 0:05:14 | |
2016, and the general election. In
2016, two years ago, we were told | 0:05:14 | 0:05:19 | |
this was the final say, politicians
could not make up their mind, they | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
had to the public to decide. They
were told... Many different things, | 0:05:22 | 0:05:27 | |
we were told that this would create
absolute economic havoc and people | 0:05:27 | 0:05:31 | |
still voted to leave, what was
promised... What was promised... We | 0:05:31 | 0:05:35 | |
were promised there would be a
punishment budget straight after the | 0:05:35 | 0:05:39 | |
referendum, unemployment would
increase by 800,000. It has gone | 0:05:39 | 0:05:43 | |
down. Interest rates would go up.
There would be an economic | 0:05:43 | 0:05:47 | |
catastrophe, it has not happened.
The doom mongers have egg on their | 0:05:47 | 0:05:51 | |
face, MEN Arena, you cannot keep
going with referendums until Mr | 0:05:51 | 0:05:59 | |
Mandelson is happy. -- Femi. . Have
we got everything we wanted from the | 0:05:59 | 0:06:04 | |
negotiations in Brussels, how well
do you think they are going, does it | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
look like they are going well, Army
times have we ask for things and the | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
EU has said, no, sorry, that is part
of the single market, you wanted | 0:06:10 | 0:06:15 | |
out, you don't get that. If you ask
anybody on the street, nobody thinks | 0:06:15 | 0:06:19 | |
these negotiations are going well,
so did people in 2016 vote for a bad | 0:06:19 | 0:06:24 | |
deal? Did they vote for that? People
keep arguing, you cannot say what | 0:06:24 | 0:06:28 | |
people did not know what they voted
for, who in 2016 could have | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
predicted the outcome of two years
of negotiations in a process that no | 0:06:32 | 0:06:36 | |
one has ever done before! The people
vote for whatever future these | 0:06:36 | 0:06:39 | |
negotiations come out for? They did
vote for specific things, it was | 0:06:39 | 0:06:43 | |
made quite clear that voting to
leave the European Union would be | 0:06:43 | 0:06:47 | |
coming out of the single market and
the customs union, that was in the | 0:06:47 | 0:06:51 | |
government funded booklet. Sorry,
sorry am a listen... Was it made | 0:06:51 | 0:06:55 | |
clear? It was made clear by Michael
Gove, Boris Johnson, David | 0:06:55 | 0:07:00 | |
Cameron... George Osborne... Allow
me to quote Daniel Hannan, | 0:07:00 | 0:07:06 | |
absolutely nobody is talking about
sacrificing our place in the single | 0:07:06 | 0:07:08 | |
market, that is what he said! Let me
quote the electorate, who have been | 0:07:08 | 0:07:13 | |
blindsided by this, the number of
people who want a second referendum | 0:07:13 | 0:07:17 | |
or second vote, at the end of last
year, YouGov at it at 18%, talk | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
about the question of single market
membership, customs market | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
membership, one region in the UK
according to Ipsos Mori backs | 0:07:24 | 0:07:28 | |
staying in the customs union, that
is London, for obvious reasons. You | 0:07:28 | 0:07:32 | |
have to come clean about this, since
referendum, 20 odd months of this | 0:07:32 | 0:07:38 | |
very vocal, very elitist section of
the Remain campaign screaming about | 0:07:38 | 0:07:41 | |
"Brexit", the temerity of the people
devote leave, backing calls for MPs | 0:07:41 | 0:07:46 | |
to intervene, launching legal
challenges, the fact the very same | 0:07:46 | 0:07:51 | |
people are now saying you believe in
democracy so much that you want us | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
to have a second say... We don't buy
it, and... Why don't you believe in | 0:07:55 | 0:08:00 | |
democracy, why don't you trust
democracy, Tom | 0:08:00 | 0:08:05 | |
democracy, why don't you trust
democracy, Tom, if you think the | 0:08:05 | 0:08:07 | |
deal is going to be so good and the
British people will understand how | 0:08:07 | 0:08:09 | |
good the deal is, and we are heading
towards the sunny uplands, why don't | 0:08:09 | 0:08:14 | |
you put it to them, because you must
trust the British people on this | 0:08:14 | 0:08:17 | |
one, or, do you not trust them? I
voted leave because I am a Democrat | 0:08:17 | 0:08:24 | |
and the European Union limits
democracy. It is quite clear that | 0:08:24 | 0:08:27 | |
elites have always tried to use
avail of democracy to bury | 0:08:27 | 0:08:31 | |
anti-democratic means. Couple of
examples, whenever... The Vale of | 0:08:31 | 0:08:36 | |
democracy for anti-democratic means.
We can all accept that in the same | 0:08:36 | 0:08:41 | |
way that you don't think you should
try the same person over and over | 0:08:41 | 0:08:43 | |
again in the hopes that you
prosecute them is more justice, | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
putting the same question over and
over again until you get the right | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
answer that is not democracy. We
have a representative of the | 0:08:49 | 0:08:55 | |
political elites... (!)... LAUGHTER
The idea that | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
the idea that Nigel Farage is not
the political elite, that is | 0:09:01 | 0:09:03 | |
hilarious. Caroline Lucas. I think,
what happened in the referendum is | 0:09:03 | 0:09:10 | |
people voted for departure, they
were unable to vote on destination | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
because it was not made clear, it is
as if people were promised a | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
wonderful mansion and yet what they
have ended up with is a bit of a | 0:09:18 | 0:09:21 | |
shack with dodgy wiring and the
bombing doesn't work and it is fair | 0:09:21 | 0:09:24 | |
enough in that scenario. --
plumbing. Do you want to have a look | 0:09:24 | 0:09:29 | |
at the final deal, see what this
place will look like? If people like | 0:09:29 | 0:09:34 | |
it, fine, have it, if they don't,
people should have the right to stay | 0:09:34 | 0:09:38 | |
inside the European Union and not
move house. The consequences of | 0:09:38 | 0:09:42 | |
leaving are becoming clearer by the
moment, and I and so negative | 0:09:42 | 0:09:48 | |
because you have investment down,
inflation up, the NHS bleeding from | 0:09:48 | 0:09:53 | |
people leaving it, the number of
nurses coming into it down by over | 0:09:53 | 0:09:57 | |
90%... APPLAUSE
That is some very big negatives. | 0:09:57 | 0:10:02 | |
That is before we get to Northern
Ireland. I really worry about | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
that... Let's focus on that in a
moment, because it deserves a | 0:10:05 | 0:10:10 | |
section of the debate on its own, if
you don't mind, there is another | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
couple of issues. Who was it he
said, don't be so negative. Do you | 0:10:13 | 0:10:17 | |
think that Remainers are being far
too negative? Should we hold hands | 0:10:17 | 0:10:22 | |
and marched together? Absolutely, we
should be unified, the country made | 0:10:22 | 0:10:25 | |
a decision, now we need... Now we
need to enact the decision. 37% of | 0:10:25 | 0:10:32 | |
the country made a decision. Rather
than trying to fight the referendum | 0:10:32 | 0:10:37 | |
again... INAUDIBLE
You are trying to stop Brexit, glad | 0:10:37 | 0:10:41 | |
to see you were honest, it is good
to see is honesty. Can I ask you for | 0:10:41 | 0:10:45 | |
some honesty. I will be with you in
a moment, Femi, because you wanted | 0:10:45 | 0:10:51 | |
to talk about demographics and the
ageing population, the young | 0:10:51 | 0:10:54 | |
people's region has been stolen...
In the phrase you people use... But | 0:10:54 | 0:11:01 | |
if the phrase had been to stay in
the European Union, would you have | 0:11:01 | 0:11:04 | |
stopped campaigning to leave? I
would always have campaigned as I | 0:11:04 | 0:11:07 | |
have done for nearly two decades.
Would you have campaigned for a | 0:11:07 | 0:11:11 | |
second referendum? We would not be
given the time of day, we had this | 0:11:11 | 0:11:16 | |
despite Brexit, when things going
well, it would | 0:11:16 | 0:11:20 | |
would you have campaigned for a
second referendum? We would not have | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
been able to have the airtime, this
debate... I would of course have | 0:11:24 | 0:11:29 | |
continued in what I'm doing because
I passionately believe the British | 0:11:29 | 0:11:33 | |
people... If you had the chance of a
second referendum, you would have | 0:11:33 | 0:11:37 | |
really stepped up to the plate. We
would not be given one, once someone | 0:11:37 | 0:11:42 | |
votes against the European Union,
they are made to vote again, to vote | 0:11:42 | 0:11:46 | |
the right way, and then not given a
say. That is how democracy works in | 0:11:46 | 0:11:50 | |
the European Union. You have to
support the European Union. What we | 0:11:50 | 0:11:54 | |
need to do, we have had a vote, we
need to move forward together and | 0:11:54 | 0:11:58 | |
find any future that the country
going towards. A future for our | 0:11:58 | 0:12:02 | |
children, our grandchildren, the
future for you, Femi, what is shot | 0:12:02 | 0:12:05 | |
ageist point about old people voting
for this. -- what is your ageist | 0:12:05 | 0:12:12 | |
point. Isn't it undemocratic that we
currently have a Tory government, we | 0:12:12 | 0:12:17 | |
voted for Labour in the 2000s, why
are we allowed to change our minds? | 0:12:17 | 0:12:22 | |
Isn't the basis of democracy that we
can change our minds, we know that | 0:12:22 | 0:12:26 | |
in the 18 to 24-year-old age group,
70%, remain. Under 55, possibly | 0:12:26 | 0:12:33 | |
under 65, voted remain. By anyone's
mats, in five years' time, we have a | 0:12:33 | 0:12:38 | |
population the majority of whom
voted to remain yet they will be | 0:12:38 | 0:12:41 | |
stuck with Brexit. We'll "Brexit" be
complete then? -- mathematics. Can | 0:12:41 | 0:12:46 | |
you negotiate trade deals with
hundreds of countries in five years? | 0:12:46 | 0:12:49 | |
Can you make all your own laws?
Religious Labour country, given that | 0:12:49 | 0:12:54 | |
one law going through Parliament
takes a year. APPLAUSE | 0:12:54 | 0:12:57 | |
Brexit will not be complete, any
when you complete... By the time we | 0:12:57 | 0:13:02 | |
have a population that voted against
it, and yet that is their future and | 0:13:02 | 0:13:06 | |
our future. Five years, ten years
down the time... There will be a | 0:13:06 | 0:13:10 | |
population down the road that is
saddled with something they do not | 0:13:10 | 0:13:14 | |
want. Yes. It has been put at 2020,
financial Times, 2021, within two | 0:13:14 | 0:13:19 | |
years, one year of the Brexit
leaving the EU, we have a population | 0:13:19 | 0:13:24 | |
that voted against it. It may turn
out to be really good that the | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
country. This is the most ugly
argument I have heard, you are | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
suggesting young people should have
two votes, rather than everybody | 0:13:31 | 0:13:34 | |
else, this is the front to -- you
can play demographic games just for | 0:13:34 | 0:13:40 | |
the sake of Brexit not happening.
This is an affront to democracy. | 0:13:40 | 0:13:46 | |
Once in a generation opportunity to
settle this question, we were told. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:48 | |
And secondly, the point that you
really have directed nice, if we | 0:13:48 | 0:13:52 | |
have a second referendum, why would
people take it seriously? The elite | 0:13:52 | 0:13:56 | |
has already said, we know that you
have had your say, try again. I | 0:13:56 | 0:14:00 | |
would not blame anyone who would not
intervene. I know that that is | 0:14:00 | 0:14:04 | |
essentially what you are counting
on. Does he represent the elite? I | 0:14:04 | 0:14:08 | |
am saying, elitist. This notion
that... That a vote on the terms of | 0:14:08 | 0:14:14 | |
Brexit would thwart the word of the
people, that it would be a big | 0:14:14 | 0:14:19 | |
establishment coup... The will of
the people cannot be faulted by a | 0:14:19 | 0:14:21 | |
vote of the people! -- cannot be
thwarted! APPLAUSE | 0:14:21 | 0:14:29 | |
an you are saying that people can
been manipulated into voting another | 0:14:30 | 0:14:34 | |
way, why would a vote on the terms
of Brexit be any different? A second | 0:14:34 | 0:14:38 | |
referendum... It is almost a given
that we will know the outcome of the | 0:14:38 | 0:14:44 | |
negotiations. We did not know that
then. Nothing democratic about | 0:14:44 | 0:14:52 | |
holding a second referendum. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:59 | |
If there were a second referendum,
what would the result to be? Who | 0:14:59 | 0:15:04 | |
knows at that point? I would fight
that referendum tooth and nail. That | 0:15:04 | 0:15:08 | |
would indicate the will of the
people. Would you be confident that | 0:15:08 | 0:15:12 | |
the Brexit side would win that?
About this is the problem. At the | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
same time a lot of the polls suggest
people are not changing their minds | 0:15:16 | 0:15:21 | |
about Brexit... This is what
happened when they voted against the | 0:15:21 | 0:15:25 | |
Lisbon Treaty in Ireland, they voted
against the Lisbon Treaty and they | 0:15:25 | 0:15:31 | |
browbeat them. They are effectively
told the people that their voice | 0:15:31 | 0:15:35 | |
does not matter. This is very
different. In a second I want to see | 0:15:35 | 0:15:40 | |
what the audience thing. I am sorry
I did not have the chance to speak | 0:15:40 | 0:15:43 | |
to you earlier.
Go on? My opinion is that if there | 0:15:43 | 0:15:49 | |
were to be a second referendum, I
very much hope that the result would | 0:15:49 | 0:15:54 | |
go the same way. Then maybe MPs,
celebrities, members of the public | 0:15:54 | 0:16:01 | |
that can't, won't, don't want to
access the result of the first | 0:16:01 | 0:16:06 | |
referendum will then have to. And
then let's move on and get on with | 0:16:06 | 0:16:11 | |
it. Do you think there is an
argument for put up or shut up? Go | 0:16:11 | 0:16:16 | |
for it, let's have the votes, it
will go our way yet again and then | 0:16:16 | 0:16:21 | |
you can just get on with it and go
with it? You will never have another | 0:16:21 | 0:16:27 | |
chance, Mr Mandelson? I would not
advocate having another referendum. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:33 | |
As this gentleman said, we have had
it, it was once-in-a-lifetime, | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
that's it. Let's get over it. If
people do not like the results, use | 0:16:36 | 0:16:41 | |
what power you have. If you are an
MP, for example, make sure we get | 0:16:41 | 0:16:47 | |
the best possible deal that we can
when we leave. Channel your energies | 0:16:47 | 0:16:52 | |
into that, not just fighting each
other and not letting it drop. Which | 0:16:52 | 0:16:55 | |
is what Robert said.
Any more? I think the issue to | 0:16:55 | 0:17:01 | |
consider it is a lot of people voted
for Leave on the principles of the | 0:17:01 | 0:17:06 | |
NHS. Where is the £350 million a
week going to the NHS that we were | 0:17:06 | 0:17:10 | |
so blatantly promised by multiple
members of the electorate when the | 0:17:10 | 0:17:16 | |
British public voted Leave? I was 16
at the time of the votes, I was not | 0:17:16 | 0:17:20 | |
given an opportunity to share my
opinion. The only way I could | 0:17:20 | 0:17:25 | |
contribute was to campaign, share my
opinions with older people. Why is | 0:17:25 | 0:17:29 | |
my future...? I was an informed
16-year-old, more informed than lots | 0:17:29 | 0:17:35 | |
of the population. You would have
had a God in Scotland. I might have | 0:17:35 | 0:17:39 | |
been a lot more informed that 16
then a lot of adults in the country | 0:17:39 | 0:17:43 | |
and was denied the opportunity...
More informed than the adults who | 0:17:43 | 0:17:49 | |
had been inside the European Union,
who voted to remain into it in 1975, | 0:17:49 | 0:17:53 | |
it has evolved into something we do
not like and have change their minds | 0:17:53 | 0:17:57 | |
and want to come out, want a future
outside the European Union. Most of | 0:17:57 | 0:18:02 | |
the global growth in the world will
happen outside the EU. Why do you | 0:18:02 | 0:18:06 | |
think you know better than people
who have experienced the EU? What | 0:18:06 | 0:18:09 | |
happened to young people that you
are willing to side with the | 0:18:09 | 0:18:17 | |
political interests of organisations
like Goldman Sachs who cooked the | 0:18:17 | 0:18:19 | |
books on the Euro? Young people are,
in your case, slavishly following | 0:18:19 | 0:18:23 | |
what the European Union says and
signing up to what they say, rather | 0:18:23 | 0:18:27 | |
than challenging the elites and
questioning the power? I think it is | 0:18:27 | 0:18:32 | |
very easy to dismiss young people
because we have not had as much | 0:18:32 | 0:18:36 | |
experience as Older People. You just
said you knew more than older | 0:18:36 | 0:18:40 | |
people. That is a misconstruing of
what I said, I said I might have | 0:18:40 | 0:18:44 | |
been more informed than some of the
adults, not all of them, but some, | 0:18:44 | 0:18:49 | |
who voted on Brexit. With my
knowledge of what the Brexited | 0:18:49 | 0:18:54 | |
Tameka Brexit negotiations could
have meant then, it was unfortunate | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
I was denied the opportunity to
vote. As a young person who will | 0:18:57 | 0:19:01 | |
have to deal with the consequences
of Brexit, whichever way they go, I | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
think it is only fair that I have a
chance to share my boys. I think it | 0:19:04 | 0:19:09 | |
is very important that the British
people know what they decide on when | 0:19:09 | 0:19:12 | |
we leave the EU. -- I think it is
only fair that I have a chance to | 0:19:12 | 0:19:17 | |
share my voice. If I give you a
contribution with no partiality, I | 0:19:17 | 0:19:22 | |
am completely impartial, it was a
brilliant contribution and thank you | 0:19:22 | 0:19:25 | |
for making a -- I thank you for your
contribution with no partiality. You | 0:19:25 | 0:19:32 | |
had stood your ground against Robert
Olds, a doughty and experienced | 0:19:32 | 0:19:37 | |
campaigner. You are a member of The
Bruges Group, named after a speech | 0:19:37 | 0:19:44 | |
by Margaret Thatcher who invented
the single market? She would have | 0:19:44 | 0:19:48 | |
been a Remainer? Margaret Thatcher
was leaving the EU. She campaigned | 0:19:48 | 0:19:54 | |
in 1975 to remain but later changed
her mind. In her book, she was quite | 0:19:54 | 0:20:01 | |
clear. I knew Margaret Thatcher, I
know she was for Leave because she | 0:20:01 | 0:20:07 | |
wanted this country to decide its
own future. You knew Margaret | 0:20:07 | 0:20:11 | |
Thatcher and we are apparently the
elite?! This is hilarious. It is now | 0:20:11 | 0:20:15 | |
the political elites delivering
Brexit. Both major parties right now | 0:20:15 | 0:20:19 | |
are pro-Brexit, there is not a big
voice for staying in beyond the two | 0:20:19 | 0:20:25 | |
big parties. The two major parties
have manifestos to get on and leave. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:30 | |
The people of this party,
consistently since the election last | 0:20:30 | 0:20:34 | |
year where Theresa May clearly lost
a mandate for the extreme Brexit she | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
has been peddling but pushing
anyway, the people are nudging in | 0:20:37 | 0:20:41 | |
favour of staying in. That is not
true. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:43 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE | 0:20:43 | 0:20:50 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE Over 80% of the
voters voted for parties pledging to | 0:20:50 | 0:20:53 | |
take Britain out of the EU and the
single market. | 0:20:53 | 0:20:56 | |
Because we have a two party system.
Those were the manifestos. You say | 0:20:56 | 0:21:01 | |
you speak for all young people, only
9% of people under 25 voted for the | 0:21:01 | 0:21:06 | |
Lib Dems. The rest of us voted for
the main parties promising to | 0:21:06 | 0:21:10 | |
deliver Brexit. People have voted
twice to come out of the EU, why | 0:21:10 | 0:21:14 | |
won't you listen?
ALL TALK AT ONCE A tactical vote | 0:21:14 | 0:21:19 | |
last year against the Conservative
Party. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
It is this conflict between what
they think and what their | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
constituents think and what their
manifesto has said, it is difficult? | 0:21:27 | 0:21:32 | |
There are plenty of people in the
Labour Party who want to remain, and | 0:21:32 | 0:21:36 | |
plenty of people who voted Labour
thinking Labour wanted to remain. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
Jeremy Corbyn has been taking this
rather dodgy line between trying not | 0:21:39 | 0:21:43 | |
to offend too many people either
side. To suggest the general | 0:21:43 | 0:21:47 | |
election result was a mandate for
the extreme Brexit that Theresa May | 0:21:47 | 0:21:51 | |
is still pursuing is a fantasy. What
is an extreme Brexit? Out of the | 0:21:51 | 0:21:57 | |
single market, out of the customs
union, voting to break up the | 0:21:57 | 0:22:01 | |
Northern Ireland peace agreement.
That is extreme. If we had a Prime | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
Minister who wanted to bring the
country together, she could have | 0:22:04 | 0:22:08 | |
pursued the so-called no Wayne
Mardle when you are still inside the | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
single market. There was no mandate
for the extreme Brexit she is | 0:22:11 | 0:22:15 | |
pursuing. I have heard Dan Hannan,
the MEP from the Conservative Party, | 0:22:15 | 0:22:20 | |
regularly saying, as Femi said,
there is no reason to lead the | 0:22:20 | 0:22:24 | |
single market. -- to leave the
single market. The leaders of the | 0:22:24 | 0:22:29 | |
Leave campaign never set out,
deliberately, what Leave would look | 0:22:29 | 0:22:32 | |
like. It is very different from the
Scottish referendum. The people who | 0:22:32 | 0:22:39 | |
wanted independence set out a big
manifesto of what it would look like | 0:22:39 | 0:22:41 | |
so you knew the details. This was
deliberately not done in this vote | 0:22:41 | 0:22:44 | |
so that people could play at how
they want. Rather than calling it a | 0:22:44 | 0:22:48 | |
second referendum, we need a vote on
the final deal. It is voting on the | 0:22:48 | 0:22:52 | |
detail...
There were lots of imponderables | 0:22:52 | 0:22:57 | |
about the Scottish referendum. The
pound, the future of oil, the future | 0:22:57 | 0:23:03 | |
with the EU. The idea there is no
mandate for hard Brexit or, as I | 0:23:03 | 0:23:08 | |
like to call, Brexit, is just for
the birds. 17.4 million people voted | 0:23:08 | 0:23:11 | |
to leave the EU, the most people who
have ever voted for everything ever | 0:23:11 | 0:23:16 | |
in this country. Not all of those
voted to leave the market. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:19 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE The slogan for the
Leave campaign was to take back | 0:23:19 | 0:23:26 | |
control, which you cannot if you are
in the single market and Customs | 0:23:26 | 0:23:29 | |
union.
Their idea of a mandate for the | 0:23:29 | 0:23:31 | |
second referendum or pulling is out
of the European Union is ridiculous. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:35 | |
It is not a second referendum.
According to YouGov, about 18% want | 0:23:35 | 0:23:41 | |
a second referendum under 16% want
stop it entirely. This is not | 0:23:41 | 0:23:47 | |
Leavers versus Remainers macro, this
is Democrats against anti-democrat. | 0:23:47 | 0:23:51 | |
The thing about Brexit, this
energised a section of the | 0:23:51 | 0:23:56 | |
electorate who had not made their
voices heard for a very long time, | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
who felt completely passed by
politics. They recognise this as an | 0:23:59 | 0:24:03 | |
opportunity... Do you support
proportional representation, a feral | 0:24:03 | 0:24:08 | |
goat? UK bringing in another point
to finish. Is Brexit does not | 0:24:08 | 0:24:12 | |
happen, if there is a stitch up, a
waiter is avoided, you will destroy | 0:24:12 | 0:24:16 | |
the idea of democracy in this
country for a generation. -- a | 0:24:16 | 0:24:20 | |
stitch up, a way it is avoided. If
this poll is somehow | 0:24:20 | 0:24:26 | |
anti-democratic, will he supports
proportional representation, there | 0:24:26 | 0:24:30 | |
voting? That is how you get to hear
people the whole year round. The | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
reason so many people took part in
the Brexit votes is that they knew | 0:24:33 | 0:24:37 | |
it would count for once, it has not
in successive... I would love to | 0:24:37 | 0:24:41 | |
know if you would like people's vote
to camp the whole time around? What | 0:24:41 | 0:24:46 | |
is the difference between a
referendum and the People's poll? I | 0:24:46 | 0:24:50 | |
am using the words People's poll
because I want to get away from the | 0:24:50 | 0:24:55 | |
idea that we are rerunning the same
question from June 20 16. The | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 | |
question on the ballot paper will be
on the detail... It is another | 0:24:58 | 0:25:01 | |
referendum asking a different
question. That is why do not like | 0:25:01 | 0:25:05 | |
the word second referendum, it
sounds like rerunning the first | 0:25:05 | 0:25:10 | |
referendum. It has the option to
keep this in the EU, despite people | 0:25:10 | 0:25:14 | |
voting... Before we start signing
proper trade deals with President, | 0:25:14 | 0:25:18 | |
what is his name, president at our
day, the mass murdering president of | 0:25:18 | 0:25:23 | |
the Philippines, Liam Fox says we
share common values. Before we | 0:25:23 | 0:25:30 | |
signed deals with human rights
abuses and murder across the world, | 0:25:30 | 0:25:36 | |
shouldn't we take stock? We should
take stock of what the British | 0:25:36 | 0:25:39 | |
people voted for when it was clearly
explained that voting to leave the | 0:25:39 | 0:25:43 | |
EU would mean coming out of the
single market and the customs union. | 0:25:43 | 0:25:47 | |
The British people want free trade,
they always have. They have always | 0:25:47 | 0:25:51 | |
been open-minded to the rest of the
world and the global future. Talking | 0:25:51 | 0:25:55 | |
about trade deals with other
countries is instinctive to Britain. | 0:25:55 | 0:25:58 | |
Going back over 100 years there were
free trade Hall set up around the | 0:25:58 | 0:26:03 | |
country in Manchester... People want
to be open to the rest of the world, | 0:26:03 | 0:26:09 | |
that is where the future lies, not
the EU. Wasn't it is likeable, | 0:26:09 | 0:26:15 | |
located by Matt? Eloise? Does the
future lie with people like Trump, | 0:26:15 | 0:26:19 | |
trading with them, who will put up
trade tariffs when it suits them, | 0:26:19 | 0:26:23 | |
really hurting industries in this
country? We have been sold a pup | 0:26:23 | 0:26:27 | |
when it comes to the opportunities
beyond the EU for trade. You had to | 0:26:27 | 0:26:30 | |
listen to the Japanese ambassador in
Downing Street who | 0:26:30 | 0:26:43 | |
said companies will leave this
country if it is no longer | 0:26:46 | 0:26:48 | |
profitable to trade. The car
industry is under threat, so many | 0:26:48 | 0:26:51 | |
other manufacturing industries are
under threat if we are threatening | 0:26:51 | 0:26:53 | |
to come out of the single market.
Manufacturing has increased since | 0:26:53 | 0:26:55 | |
the referendum, exports have
increased. It is not Project Fear, | 0:26:55 | 0:26:57 | |
people were not told the realities
about the opportunities for us. We | 0:26:57 | 0:27:00 | |
could be in the EE you as one of the
most impactful, influential leaders | 0:27:00 | 0:27:06 | |
there, writing legislation for other
countries and ourselves in issues | 0:27:06 | 0:27:09 | |
that we care about... We could be in
the EU as. If we went back in, the | 0:27:09 | 0:27:16 | |
bitterness and resentment among
those people who sincerely believe | 0:27:16 | 0:27:19 | |
we should not be in their because of
the whole project, can you imagine? | 0:27:19 | 0:27:25 | |
The sense of betrayal... What about
if in ten years' time we are rooted | 0:27:25 | 0:27:32 | |
to the bottom of the economic
strata, like we are now. What if it | 0:27:32 | 0:27:36 | |
gets worse and what if there is the
joblessness and the NHS... The | 0:27:36 | 0:27:41 | |
joblessness that young people have
in southern Europe because of the | 0:27:41 | 0:27:46 | |
European Union, young people are out
of work in some countries as much | 0:27:46 | 0:27:50 | |
as... It is because they are in the
euro. We should show solidarity to | 0:27:50 | 0:27:56 | |
young people on the continent who
have suffered. Another country said | 0:27:56 | 0:28:03 | |
they were in with a load of opt
outs, now they are out they want a | 0:28:03 | 0:28:07 | |
lot of opt ins. This is the whole
question about the negotiation. I do | 0:28:07 | 0:28:12 | |
not think the negotiations are going
well, I do not think they can go | 0:28:12 | 0:28:16 | |
well insofar as the EU is not
interested in making a good deal of | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
us. It is interested in humiliating
us for the sake of making sure no | 0:28:19 | 0:28:23 | |
other member states bowled for the
door. This fantastic study before | 0:28:23 | 0:28:28 | |
Christmas, led by the very venerated
pollster John Curtice, found that | 0:28:28 | 0:28:34 | |
although people are very pessimistic
about the short-term economic | 0:28:34 | 0:28:38 | |
outcomes of Brexit, they wanted to
happen because they are Democrats. | 0:28:38 | 0:28:42 | |
Democracy is at stake, you are
trying to subvert it. I am so sorry, | 0:28:42 | 0:28:48 | |
we have to leave it there, with a
rosy vision of the future. Will we | 0:28:48 | 0:28:52 | |
be a wealthier country in ten years'
time as a result of this? We will be | 0:28:52 | 0:28:57 | |
free to decide alone future, that is
the most important. Wealthier? | 0:28:57 | 0:29:03 | |
Hopefully. Thank you all very much
indeed. | 0:29:03 | 0:29:04 | |
If you have something
to say about that debate, | 0:29:04 | 0:29:07 | |
log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,
then follow the link | 0:29:07 | 0:29:09 | |
to where you can join
in the discussion online. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:11 | |
Or contribute on Twitter. | 0:29:11 | 0:29:12 | |
Next, here at Sussex University's
Attenborough Centre, | 0:29:12 | 0:29:13 | |
we'll be debating whether doctors
or parents should decide | 0:29:13 | 0:29:16 | |
when to withdraw life-sustaining
treatment for children. | 0:29:16 | 0:29:18 | |
But before that, make a note
of this email address - | 0:29:18 | 0:29:20 | |
if you'd like to apply | 0:29:20 | 0:29:22 | |
to be in the audience
at a future programme. | 0:29:22 | 0:29:25 | |
We're in Glasgow next Sunday then,
after a break for Easter, | 0:29:25 | 0:29:28 | |
we're in York on April eighth
for two shows, the usual live | 0:29:28 | 0:29:31 | |
edition in the morning
and a pre-recorded special | 0:29:31 | 0:29:33 | |
on the National Health
Service in the afternoon. | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
It's a similar pattern on April 29th
from Salford, where the special | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
will probe masculinity. | 0:29:38 | 0:29:43 | |
And on May 13th from Birmingham,
it's two shows again, | 0:29:43 | 0:29:46 | |
with a special on robotics
and artificial intelligence. | 0:29:46 | 0:29:54 | |
Everyone applauds the advances
in medicine that have enabled many | 0:29:58 | 0:30:01 | |
more children to survive premature
births, congenital abnormalities | 0:30:01 | 0:30:03 | |
and serious illnesses. | 0:30:03 | 0:30:05 | |
There are many children alive today
enjoying full and healthy lives | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
who would have died just
a decade ago. | 0:30:08 | 0:30:13 | |
This is undoubtedly a good thing,
but it has raised the expectation | 0:30:13 | 0:30:16 | |
that doctors not only can do
something but should do something | 0:30:16 | 0:30:18 | |
to prolong the life of a sick child. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:20 | |
Some of these tragic cases are now
ending up in the courts | 0:30:20 | 0:30:23 | |
when the parents want the doctors
to do more for their child than | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
the doctors feel is right for them. | 0:30:26 | 0:30:31 | |
Last year, Charlie Gard's parents
lost their case against | 0:30:31 | 0:30:33 | |
Great Ormond Street Children's
Hospital. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:34 | |
It caused a storm on Twitter
and even garnered support | 0:30:34 | 0:30:37 | |
from President Trump and Pope
Francis. | 0:30:37 | 0:30:44 | |
Last week, one-year-old
Isaiah Haastrup died | 0:30:44 | 0:30:45 | |
when the European Court
of Human Rights refused his parents' | 0:30:45 | 0:30:47 | |
appeal to keep him on life support. | 0:30:47 | 0:30:49 | |
And this week the case
of 22-month-old brain-damaged | 0:30:49 | 0:30:51 | |
Alfie Evans has been referred
to the Supreme Court for a decision | 0:30:51 | 0:30:54 | |
as to whether his life
support can be turned off. | 0:30:54 | 0:30:59 | |
On Thursday night, | 0:30:59 | 0:31:04 | |
Channel 4 showed the first of two
documentaries | 0:31:04 | 0:31:06 | |
filmed at Southampton
Children's Hospital | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
Intensive Care Unit, | 0:31:09 | 0:31:11 | |
where these difficult decisions have
to be faced by parents, | 0:31:11 | 0:31:14 | |
doctors and nurses every day. | 0:31:14 | 0:31:18 | |
In this clip we meet Tallulah, | 0:31:18 | 0:31:20 | |
who survived a very premature birth, | 0:31:20 | 0:31:22 | |
and her dad, James. | 0:31:22 | 0:31:30 | |
As a result of a premature birth,
she cannot breathe for herself, she | 0:31:35 | 0:31:39 | |
is kept alive on a life-support
machine which breeds for her, it is | 0:31:39 | 0:31:43 | |
uncertain if she will ever manage on
her own or how her brain will | 0:31:43 | 0:31:47 | |
develop. She was born at one lb,
five years ago she would have been | 0:31:47 | 0:31:54 | |
dead. She would not have had the
machines to keep her alive. We don't | 0:31:54 | 0:31:59 | |
know what ten years is going to
hold, we don't know what tomorrow is | 0:31:59 | 0:32:02 | |
going to hold. We just take every
day as it comes. Well, hello, I was | 0:32:02 | 0:32:14 | |
privileged to see a photograph of
your daughter this morning, the most | 0:32:14 | 0:32:17 | |
beautiful smile on her face,
beautiful little girl, what has she | 0:32:17 | 0:32:23 | |
been through? It has been ups and
downs from the word go, we have been | 0:32:23 | 0:32:28 | |
in hospital 26 months, we have only
been home since November but we have | 0:32:28 | 0:32:32 | |
been told she won't make it, she
will make it, it is working, it is | 0:32:32 | 0:32:38 | |
not working, in and out of comas...
I could not have expected this at | 0:32:38 | 0:32:42 | |
the start, I did not know anything
like this could happen to children | 0:32:42 | 0:32:46 | |
so young, until I was in the
situation. And then we are coping | 0:32:46 | 0:32:52 | |
with it each day now. What is she
like? She has her own personality, | 0:32:52 | 0:32:57 | |
she loves television, she claps and
sings along. She dances along, | 0:32:57 | 0:33:04 | |
sorry, two songs, she plays with her
little sister. She interacts with me | 0:33:04 | 0:33:08 | |
and Rhianna very well, she has a
good quality of life. She is | 0:33:08 | 0:33:14 | |
enjoying her time at home. Was it
right that yesterday, she was making | 0:33:14 | 0:33:20 | |
noises along to the Teletubbies?
Yes, she cannot quite speak, she | 0:33:20 | 0:33:24 | |
kind of croaks, almost squeaks, but
she does try to sing along to it. | 0:33:24 | 0:33:34 | |
And she has a track your to me, for
her life support? Yes, straight into | 0:33:34 | 0:33:40 | |
her throat, and 24-hour care, so we
have had two nights of cancelled | 0:33:40 | 0:33:47 | |
carers, so we have been up to
nights, pretty much, and then work, | 0:33:47 | 0:33:51 | |
and then here today. Thank you so
much for coming. On the programme, | 0:33:51 | 0:33:57 | |
some tough bits, apart from seeing
these beautiful children, and | 0:33:57 | 0:34:03 | |
focusing on the moral and ethical
issues, one particular one of those, | 0:34:03 | 0:34:06 | |
which was raised, was by some of the
doctors about resources. And the | 0:34:06 | 0:34:12 | |
amount of money that it costs to
keep some of these children live. | 0:34:12 | 0:34:18 | |
Given the fact that there is a
finite amount of money and other | 0:34:18 | 0:34:21 | |
children are not getting the support
they might get, who might have a | 0:34:21 | 0:34:26 | |
better chance of survival. Such a
difficult subject to broach, doctors | 0:34:26 | 0:34:30 | |
were tiptoeing towards it, when you
hear that debate, do you find it | 0:34:30 | 0:34:35 | |
callous, in a way? Everything does
cost, so all these machines do cost | 0:34:35 | 0:34:44 | |
a lot of money to run, but no one
can put a price on a family member | 0:34:44 | 0:34:48 | |
to live. At the end of the day, you
have little bits and bobs that she | 0:34:48 | 0:34:55 | |
will use every day that is quite
pricey, but it is all worth it. She | 0:34:55 | 0:35:00 | |
has a good quality of life. There is
no one that should live over someone | 0:35:00 | 0:35:06 | |
else. It doesn't work like that. It
needs to be addressed, but then | 0:35:06 | 0:35:13 | |
there is other places, such as
resources going out to people having | 0:35:13 | 0:35:18 | |
gastric bands fitted, Friday and
Saturday night down pubs and clubs, | 0:35:18 | 0:35:23 | |
the Ambulance Service there. All of
them that are self-inflicted. And | 0:35:23 | 0:35:30 | |
these children do not ask to be ill.
So, I don't know why we are | 0:35:30 | 0:35:35 | |
questioning the money going out to
the children. They don't ask for any | 0:35:35 | 0:35:40 | |
of this help or care, they are the
ones getting it. APPLAUSE | 0:35:40 | 0:35:48 | |
Peter, you featured in the
programme, Dr Peta Coulson-Smith, | 0:35:51 | 0:35:57 | |
University of Southampton, clinical
ethics, James was so articulate with | 0:35:57 | 0:36:03 | |
that, and any of us would do
anything we possibly could to extend | 0:36:03 | 0:36:06 | |
the life of our child in that
situation, various different | 0:36:06 | 0:36:12 | |
situations, what about this debate
about resources, which comes up | 0:36:12 | 0:36:15 | |
again and again and again, people
like you, tiptoeing towards it, but | 0:36:15 | 0:36:20 | |
you also say it is important to
discuss it, why is it important? I | 0:36:20 | 0:36:26 | |
think there are no easy answers in
any of this debate. As a doctor, as | 0:36:26 | 0:36:34 | |
a paediatrician, at the bedside,
resources do not come into the | 0:36:34 | 0:36:40 | |
equation, the NHS, the beauty of the
NHS is that it is free at the point | 0:36:40 | 0:36:44 | |
of delivery. Really, I think part of
the issue is the fact we cannot talk | 0:36:44 | 0:36:49 | |
about it in the hospitals. It is
something that has to happen at a | 0:36:49 | 0:36:53 | |
national and political level, and we
need to have strategies to develop | 0:36:53 | 0:37:00 | |
answers about this. The costs are
increasing... Three quarters of a | 0:37:00 | 0:37:05 | |
million, that is the cost. For
somebody with long-term ventilation | 0:37:05 | 0:37:11 | |
with a track your to me, as you
mentioned, around £500,000 a year. | 0:37:11 | 0:37:17 | |
And that is for basic care. If the
child then needed hospitalisation on | 0:37:17 | 0:37:24 | |
top of that, for a chest infection,
for instance, there would be another | 0:37:24 | 0:37:30 | |
cost as well. It is a really
difficult conversation. It is | 0:37:30 | 0:37:37 | |
something we as doctors | 0:37:37 | 0:37:43 | |
something we as doctors and as
ethicsists to not have answers, the | 0:37:44 | 0:37:47 | |
only way to do it is to have
discussions, that is why this | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
programme has been so great to
highlight this. -- ethicists. One of | 0:37:51 | 0:37:59 | |
the things that people are saying is
that there are children not being | 0:37:59 | 0:38:03 | |
treated who may have a better
prognosis, and they are not being | 0:38:03 | 0:38:07 | |
treated because some are, is that a
fact? It is difficult to answer that | 0:38:07 | 0:38:12 | |
in a sense, because there is no
direct consequence, when you are | 0:38:12 | 0:38:16 | |
delivering treatment for a child, on
an intensive care unit, there is no | 0:38:16 | 0:38:21 | |
direct consequence that you can see
as a doctor, but there is a | 0:38:21 | 0:38:27 | |
consequence, of course, that those
resources are being used for | 0:38:27 | 0:38:32 | |
something which is not going to
another area. And it feels quite | 0:38:32 | 0:38:39 | |
callous, speaking about it, in
financial terms, and I just think | 0:38:39 | 0:38:43 | |
that it is something that we all
need to discuss and think about, | 0:38:43 | 0:38:48 | |
where we want NHS resources to go,
because what we are talking about is | 0:38:48 | 0:38:52 | |
a subgroup of children, a very small
amount of children, that we are | 0:38:52 | 0:38:57 | |
talking about here. The numbers have
doubled, approximately, in the last | 0:38:57 | 0:39:01 | |
ten years, of children having
long-term ventilation. Should | 0:39:01 | 0:39:07 | |
doctors decide, all parents? Whether
to withdraw life-sustaining | 0:39:07 | 0:39:12 | |
treatment? Ultimately, I think
doctors to decide. But, the caveat | 0:39:12 | 0:39:19 | |
to that is that the parents views
are central to any decision that is | 0:39:19 | 0:39:26 | |
made. It is a collaborative
decision, it is something that | 0:39:26 | 0:39:31 | |
nobody wants to talk about, it is
something that is incredibly | 0:39:31 | 0:39:38 | |
difficult, and the child's best
interests are absolutely at the | 0:39:38 | 0:39:40 | |
forefront of every decision that is
made. | 0:39:40 | 0:39:51 | |
Lubna, location or son had his
life-support removed, did you feel | 0:39:52 | 0:39:56 | |
that it was a collaborative
decision? My son was five months old | 0:39:56 | 0:40:02 | |
when he passed away, when he was two
weeks old he got really sick, ended | 0:40:02 | 0:40:06 | |
up having an operation, at that
point they said to me he will not | 0:40:06 | 0:40:11 | |
make it, but he came back and he was
OK. And I think, for them to say | 0:40:11 | 0:40:17 | |
that to a parent, that your child is
not going to make it, no one wants | 0:40:17 | 0:40:23 | |
to hear that, no parent wants to
hear that. But just before he got | 0:40:23 | 0:40:28 | |
sick, the night before, I did say to
them, he is not well. They did not | 0:40:28 | 0:40:32 | |
listen to me. So the next day, when
they did realise he was not well, it | 0:40:32 | 0:40:38 | |
was quite late. But he was fine
after his operation. He made it off | 0:40:38 | 0:40:46 | |
the ventilator, as well,
unfortunately, he went back on it. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:51 | |
And when they said to me, he's not
going to make it, and if he does, | 0:40:51 | 0:40:56 | |
maybe he will be disabled, I said,
well, that is my child. I don't | 0:40:56 | 0:41:00 | |
care. I want him, do what you can.
At that point I said, could I gather | 0:41:00 | 0:41:09 | |
opinion from another doctor. But
they refused, they said, you will | 0:41:09 | 0:41:13 | |
get the same answer from everybody,
which I thought was unfair. Because | 0:41:13 | 0:41:19 | |
now, it is like, what if, what if
someone said something different. It | 0:41:19 | 0:41:23 | |
will always be there. I ended up
losing my child, because they then | 0:41:23 | 0:41:27 | |
decided that they were going to
withdraw care. And we had to make a | 0:41:27 | 0:41:34 | |
decision of what time and when.
Which I don't think was fair, | 0:41:34 | 0:41:40 | |
really, but, the doctors were
brilliant, but sometimes they should | 0:41:40 | 0:41:46 | |
listen to parents. I was his mother.
As a mother, I know what my child is | 0:41:46 | 0:41:54 | |
going through... And you understand,
you are going to look after your son | 0:41:54 | 0:42:01 | |
for the rest of his life am a you
understand the invitations and | 0:42:01 | 0:42:06 | |
consequences because you are going
home with him. Yes. Do you think | 0:42:06 | 0:42:11 | |
because of that, the decision should
be with you? I think so, yes. What | 0:42:11 | 0:42:20 | |
was the moment like, when there was
nothing you could do... It is the | 0:42:20 | 0:42:24 | |
worst thing that can happen to a
parent, if they did give me an | 0:42:24 | 0:42:28 | |
option of getting another opinion,
and that opinion was the same as | 0:42:28 | 0:42:33 | |
what they said, it would have made
me feel better, does that make | 0:42:33 | 0:42:37 | |
sense? But I did not get that
option. So, for that, it is done | 0:42:37 | 0:42:46 | |
now, but I will never forget, he's
my baby. And I got five months with | 0:42:46 | 0:42:55 | |
him, that will never be enough for
any parent, it is the worst thing | 0:42:55 | 0:43:00 | |
that a mother can go through. | 0:43:00 | 0:43:07 | |
that a mother can go through. I
think a parent should get that | 0:43:07 | 0:43:11 | |
chance, they should decide what
happens with their child, basically. | 0:43:11 | 0:43:16 | |
Always? Of course. Steph Nimmo,
Daisy had her life-support removed, | 0:43:16 | 0:43:25 | |
seven years old. She was 12 when she
had the life-support removed. Seven | 0:43:25 | 0:43:30 | |
years old when she was referred to
palliative care. She was born with a | 0:43:30 | 0:43:34 | |
really rare genetic disease, we did
not know prenatally that she would | 0:43:34 | 0:43:39 | |
have this. Who should have the
decision? Let me start at that | 0:43:39 | 0:43:42 | |
question. I was lucky, I had a lot
longer with my daughter, and she | 0:43:42 | 0:43:47 | |
took us to the edge, many times, but
because we were referred to | 0:43:47 | 0:43:52 | |
palliative care very early on, there
was, as Peta said, there was | 0:43:52 | 0:44:00 | |
collaborative conversations, because
much of it is so difficult, you have | 0:44:00 | 0:44:04 | |
to take the emotion out of it. I was
Daisy's mother. Who can do that? It | 0:44:04 | 0:44:13 | |
is impossible, you have to bring
down a barrier because you | 0:44:13 | 0:44:15 | |
desperately want to do the right
thing for your child and some time, | 0:44:15 | 0:44:19 | |
doing the right thing for your tile
is actually being incredibly | 0:44:19 | 0:44:22 | |
selfless and letting them go. And
how can a parent make that decision | 0:44:22 | 0:44:27 | |
on their own? And didn't fact, I was
on my own at the end, my husband had | 0:44:27 | 0:44:33 | |
died before Daisy died, so during
all this journey, I was living with | 0:44:33 | 0:44:37 | |
this child that I knew was going to
die, then my husband died. And I was | 0:44:37 | 0:44:42 | |
aware that I was going to come to
this... If I had not been surrounded | 0:44:42 | 0:44:46 | |
by an incredible team of
professionals, and we could talk | 0:44:46 | 0:44:49 | |
through in the cold light of day
what would happen, what would it be | 0:44:49 | 0:44:52 | |
like? Daisy was on a form of
life-support called total parental | 0:44:52 | 0:44:58 | |
nutrition, she received all her
nutrition intravenously, through a | 0:44:58 | 0:45:02 | |
line into her bloodstream, 24/7, and
she was very aware of what was going | 0:45:02 | 0:45:07 | |
on, although she had a learning
disability, she had an incredible | 0:45:07 | 0:45:11 | |
quality of life, she had opinions on
things, she lived a very joyful | 0:45:11 | 0:45:17 | |
life, but I had always said to her
palliative consultant, when those | 0:45:17 | 0:45:21 | |
moments get compressed, when the
moments of joy gets compressed, I | 0:45:21 | 0:45:24 | |
know that we are coming to the end,
and... But we just did not know when | 0:45:24 | 0:45:28 | |
the end would be. As it was, it
happened quite quickly. For me, she | 0:45:28 | 0:45:33 | |
had a cardiac arrest, the doctors
said, we can keep resuscitating pots | 0:45:33 | 0:45:37 | |
are on dialysis... I said, no, we
have two let her go. -- keep | 0:45:37 | 0:45:43 | |
resuscitating, put her on dialysis. | 0:45:43 | 0:45:49 | |
I feel in many ways I was fortunate
because I had a lot longer with her, | 0:45:50 | 0:45:54 | |
but I also had many opportunities to
have very difficult conversations | 0:45:54 | 0:45:58 | |
with the palliative team, the team
who cared for her and grew to know | 0:45:58 | 0:46:02 | |
as both, at the end I felt it was
very much a collaborative decision, | 0:46:02 | 0:46:05 | |
it was just the right thing to do
for my child in the end. That they | 0:46:05 | 0:46:10 | |
must have been awful? It was
horrific. I was on my own, three | 0:46:10 | 0:46:15 | |
other children who had | 0:46:15 | 0:46:23 | |
other children who had already gone
through a huge loss of their dad. | 0:46:23 | 0:46:25 | |
But in a way I feel that I gave my
daughter a good death. We had | 0:46:25 | 0:46:28 | |
prepared for it, we had planned for
it. She was in pain and we let her | 0:46:28 | 0:46:31 | |
go. People ask if I would have her
back, no, because she would still be | 0:46:31 | 0:46:36 | |
in pain, still deteriorating, she
would no longer have the | 0:46:36 | 0:46:38 | |
quality-of-life that she had. She
had an amazing 12 years and gave as | 0:46:38 | 0:46:42 | |
an amazing 12 years, and thanks to
the NHS who kept her alive. When she | 0:46:42 | 0:46:47 | |
was first born we were told she
would probably not see a year, she | 0:46:47 | 0:46:51 | |
gave as 12 incredible years and
taught us so much about ourselves. I | 0:46:51 | 0:46:58 | |
felt it was her time, but, as I say,
the support of excellent palliative | 0:46:58 | 0:47:03 | |
care team allowed us... Allowed me
to be at peace with that decision at | 0:47:03 | 0:47:06 | |
the end, which was incredibly
important. But we can so much | 0:47:06 | 0:47:12 | |
understand Lubna 's situation, which
is different. There is no right or | 0:47:12 | 0:47:16 | |
wrong. I think it is really
important that we have these | 0:47:16 | 0:47:22 | |
conversations and we reflect that
actually sometimes children do not | 0:47:22 | 0:47:25 | |
make it out of the neonatal unit.
Medical prop -- medical science, I | 0:47:25 | 0:47:31 | |
think the doctor says in the
programme we can keep them alive but | 0:47:31 | 0:47:34 | |
not cure them. What about the
situation we brought up earlier and | 0:47:34 | 0:47:38 | |
Peter acknowledged, such a delicate
area and we want to tread so | 0:47:38 | 0:47:42 | |
carefully, quite properly and
rightly, because that whole issue of | 0:47:42 | 0:47:46 | |
NHS resources... As I say it now it
is a difficult thing to say. What | 0:47:46 | 0:47:55 | |
are your thoughts? I only say it
because the doctors in the programme | 0:47:55 | 0:48:01 | |
wants people to discuss it. And I
absolutely empathise with those | 0:48:01 | 0:48:05 | |
doctors, I thought the programme was
brilliant because the doctors don't | 0:48:05 | 0:48:09 | |
get the opportunity to show their
point of view, with all the social | 0:48:09 | 0:48:13 | |
media and the publicity around these
big cases of the doctors are not | 0:48:13 | 0:48:17 | |
allowed to comment. I think it is
really interesting for us to see the | 0:48:17 | 0:48:21 | |
dilemmas the doctors have, because
they absolutely car. But their hands | 0:48:21 | 0:48:25 | |
are tied, they have pressures. We
all know there is | 0:48:25 | 0:48:34 | |
all know there is huge pressure on
intensive care beds. Time and time | 0:48:36 | 0:48:38 | |
again, Daisy would be scheduled the
surgery, she always needed intensive | 0:48:38 | 0:48:40 | |
care after surgery, that there would
be no bed available and so the | 0:48:40 | 0:48:44 | |
surgery would be cancelled because
it is such a specialised area. There | 0:48:44 | 0:48:47 | |
was a great quote from one of the
doctors which summed it up | 0:48:47 | 0:48:51 | |
amazingly, he said very quietly and
very thoughtfully and there was a | 0:48:51 | 0:48:54 | |
lot of sadness when he said our
capacity to support life now exceeds | 0:48:54 | 0:48:59 | |
our ability to treat the underlying
disease. That is exactly it. Well we | 0:48:59 | 0:49:06 | |
are making incredible advances in
medical science, what we are not | 0:49:06 | 0:49:10 | |
catching up with is what we do want
these children leave. And it raises | 0:49:10 | 0:49:16 | |
the expectations of parents. Peter,
I do not know if you have a view, | 0:49:16 | 0:49:20 | |
the new phenomenon in this, the
social media campaigns, very often | 0:49:20 | 0:49:25 | |
the involvement of religious groups,
social media campaigns. -- Peta, I | 0:49:25 | 0:49:30 | |
do not know if you have a view.
President Trump got involved. Does | 0:49:30 | 0:49:34 | |
it cloud the issue? It makes it so
difficult for the parents. I put a | 0:49:34 | 0:49:40 | |
lot of trust and faith in the
medical team that surrounded me. It | 0:49:40 | 0:49:43 | |
is like when you're pregnant,
everybody wants to give you an | 0:49:43 | 0:49:46 | |
opinion on what you should and
should not do. You open up to the | 0:49:46 | 0:49:50 | |
world stage and the poor parents
stuck in the middle, you lose sight | 0:49:50 | 0:49:55 | |
of what is the right thing to do,
the emotion takes over. Charlie | 0:49:55 | 0:50:02 | |
Gard, some of the medics there, the
medical practitioners, had death | 0:50:02 | 0:50:08 | |
threats? The false hope that comes
through from the social media | 0:50:08 | 0:50:12 | |
campaigns is unbelievable. As you
know, it is a long process and you | 0:50:12 | 0:50:18 | |
know absolutely everything that is
going on. People in social media do | 0:50:18 | 0:50:23 | |
not know the ins and outs. The
doctors... I could not ask for | 0:50:23 | 0:50:27 | |
better care, I could not asked to be
informed more. But this false hope, | 0:50:27 | 0:50:31 | |
people putting in their two Panis,
it is giving a dream that is not | 0:50:31 | 0:50:35 | |
even bear in the first place, that
is why it is such a disgusting | 0:50:35 | 0:50:40 | |
treatment of the Paris -- everybody
is putting in their 2p worth. I do | 0:50:40 | 0:50:45 | |
not think it should be done.
Individual family should be kept in | 0:50:45 | 0:50:49 | |
the circle they are in. Be informed
as much as they ran and can't -- as | 0:50:49 | 0:50:54 | |
much as they are and come to a
decision and a way forward, just | 0:50:54 | 0:50:58 | |
them. Yeah.
APPLAUSE | 0:50:58 | 0:51:04 | |
Dr MacKenzie Graham, I want to
discuss with you this issue about | 0:51:04 | 0:51:08 | |
what is a quality of life?
Where do we set the bar? Because if | 0:51:08 | 0:51:12 | |
a little child has a tactile world
of cuddles and smiles but can't | 0:51:12 | 0:51:22 | |
communicate and has tubes, that is a
quality of life for a human being? | 0:51:22 | 0:51:26 | |
In a certain respect we might think
that some of these young children... | 0:51:26 | 0:51:31 | |
Maybe their capacity for well-being
is diminished compared to what a | 0:51:31 | 0:51:35 | |
perfectly healthy Child could
experience, but you are right. | 0:51:35 | 0:51:39 | |
Unless it is a life of complete
suffering there is certainly some | 0:51:39 | 0:51:42 | |
value. Just being held by the
parents, they can feel tactile | 0:51:42 | 0:51:48 | |
pleasure. Things like that. Back
contributes to value. I wanted to | 0:51:48 | 0:51:54 | |
remark on something like Peta said,
the best interests of the child are | 0:51:54 | 0:52:00 | |
foremost. That is a values question,
to me, and I think that discussion | 0:52:00 | 0:52:07 | |
needs to happen between physicians
and parents, because physicians will | 0:52:07 | 0:52:12 | |
be the authority on clinical facts,
here's what you can expect with | 0:52:12 | 0:52:16 | |
respect to what your child's life
will be like. But I think it is up | 0:52:16 | 0:52:20 | |
to the parents to determine what
they feel, according to their own | 0:52:20 | 0:52:26 | |
values, what is necessary for their
child's quality of life, because we | 0:52:26 | 0:52:31 | |
will each judge that differently.
Because the parents have to support | 0:52:31 | 0:52:38 | |
the children, you guys are under a
tremendous burden. I get the sense | 0:52:38 | 0:52:42 | |
that maybe you were not quite
sure... It is not a burden, it is | 0:52:42 | 0:52:48 | |
our daughter, I don't like that
word. No, but there is so much | 0:52:48 | 0:52:51 | |
stress. It is so hard on a daily
basis. I have to... I have two | 0:52:51 | 0:53:02 | |
daughters, one of which is disabled.
My other half is the carer in the | 0:53:02 | 0:53:06 | |
daytime. I have to work a lot,
support them all, plus we had to go | 0:53:06 | 0:53:11 | |
with the other factors in this
thing. It is such a hard thing to do | 0:53:11 | 0:53:15 | |
on a daily basis, so I can see some
people that might not be able to | 0:53:15 | 0:53:19 | |
cope. They had to think of the
bigger picture and how they will be | 0:53:19 | 0:53:22 | |
in two years when you go home. Like
I said, our carers cancelled on is | 0:53:22 | 0:53:31 | |
the last two nights. No one but me
and Rhianna will have to stay awake | 0:53:31 | 0:53:34 | |
to look after her. Once you are out
of hospital you are very much on | 0:53:34 | 0:53:37 | |
your own, that is where Rick gets
hard. If I can, when we are talking | 0:53:37 | 0:53:41 | |
about what is the best interests of
a child, that is an extremely high | 0:53:41 | 0:53:46 | |
standard, doing the best possible
for a child. You have your other | 0:53:46 | 0:53:50 | |
children to consider so there will
be trade-offs between interests. | 0:53:50 | 0:53:54 | |
Providing the child is not suffering
an unacceptable level of harm, if we | 0:53:54 | 0:54:01 | |
think of it in terms... What if the
child is suffering and the doctors | 0:54:01 | 0:54:05 | |
say this is terrible, but the
parents want the child to stay | 0:54:05 | 0:54:09 | |
alive? I think that is where the
threshold is. I am not a parent but | 0:54:09 | 0:54:13 | |
based on what I am hearing I can
imagine that parents feel like this | 0:54:13 | 0:54:17 | |
is my child, I need to do everything
I can for this child because that is | 0:54:17 | 0:54:22 | |
my responsibility, I love this
child. If I were in that situation, | 0:54:22 | 0:54:30 | |
it would take some convincing. It
can make it very difficult to remain | 0:54:30 | 0:54:34 | |
as objective as you can in
emotionally fraught situations like | 0:54:34 | 0:54:38 | |
this. Provided there is not this
level of suffering, it is up to the | 0:54:38 | 0:54:42 | |
parents. But sometimes it needs to
be taken out of the hands of the | 0:54:42 | 0:54:46 | |
parents if the child is suffering.
As a leading politician, Caroline, | 0:54:46 | 0:54:54 | |
does the debate about NHS resources
and how much we put into the NHS and | 0:54:54 | 0:54:58 | |
how much we prioritise that
politically come into that? I think | 0:54:58 | 0:55:06 | |
it has to somewhere. It is an
incredibly difficult conversation, | 0:55:06 | 0:55:09 | |
even more difficult when you are
talking about specific cases rather | 0:55:09 | 0:55:13 | |
than more of an academic discussion,
but it has to come into it | 0:55:13 | 0:55:17 | |
somewhere. I think in terms of the
process, what Steph was describing | 0:55:17 | 0:55:26 | |
of the collaboration between
hospital staff and parents, that | 0:55:26 | 0:55:30 | |
needs to be strived for. But if
parents are disagreeing with the | 0:55:30 | 0:55:34 | |
medical profession over the future
of the Child and if we are to put | 0:55:34 | 0:55:38 | |
the well-being of the child and the
rights of the child at the heart, | 0:55:38 | 0:55:41 | |
then sometimes I can see the role of
the courts. I know this seems to be | 0:55:41 | 0:55:49 | |
very callous, but it is enormously
difficult. Sometimes it is the right | 0:55:49 | 0:55:57 | |
time to say goodbye and it is kinder
to let go. For a parent to make that | 0:55:57 | 0:56:04 | |
choice on the road is immensely
difficult. We are not in a world of | 0:56:04 | 0:56:10 | |
black-and-white, these are
judgments, shades of grey, they are | 0:56:10 | 0:56:13 | |
difficult, it is not just good guys
and bad guys, as you would hear on | 0:56:13 | 0:56:17 | |
social media. Everybody is trying to
do their best for your child. If | 0:56:17 | 0:56:21 | |
there was a disagreement between the
parents and the medical staff than I | 0:56:21 | 0:56:24 | |
think we should take it to the
courts. I think one of the doctors | 0:56:24 | 0:56:27 | |
said I would of course fight tooth
and nail to keep my child alive, but | 0:56:27 | 0:56:33 | |
I would want the doctors to make the
decision. I was just going to say | 0:56:33 | 0:56:37 | |
that I feel really sad to hear that
your experience was not this | 0:56:37 | 0:56:43 | |
collaborative approach and that you
feel like that decision... You were | 0:56:43 | 0:56:49 | |
not really part of that decision. I
would say that on the whole we get | 0:56:49 | 0:56:55 | |
it right, and I would say that on
the whole people are involved and | 0:56:55 | 0:57:00 | |
that was your experience. Do you
think the social media campaigns | 0:57:00 | 0:57:04 | |
with false distrust of doctors, and
suspicion? I really do. I think the | 0:57:04 | 0:57:09 | |
medical profession has been very
much demonised over the last few | 0:57:09 | 0:57:13 | |
years and that is why we embarked on
this programme with great | 0:57:13 | 0:57:16 | |
trepidation. We did not want to
compound that in any way. But I | 0:57:16 | 0:57:21 | |
think what it shows is a very
balanced view of children and | 0:57:21 | 0:57:27 | |
agreeing procedures, tracking
changes and some of the changes that | 0:57:27 | 0:57:35 | |
the parents, nursing staff and
doctors experience with these | 0:57:35 | 0:57:38 | |
children. I have seen lots of
campaign where there are headlines | 0:57:38 | 0:57:47 | |
such as Give The Child A Chance.
What you do not see is what the | 0:57:47 | 0:57:52 | |
level of suffering is. We do not see
the individual case. James said | 0:57:52 | 0:57:56 | |
really nicely earlier about we need
to see each child individually, | 0:57:56 | 0:58:04 | |
their own circumstances, situations,
family setup, everything. As | 0:58:04 | 0:58:08 | |
Caroline said, not the black and
white. Thank you all so much for | 0:58:08 | 0:58:12 | |
coming in and speaking so honestly,
it is such an important debate. I... | 0:58:12 | 0:58:18 | |
I will never forget that picture you
showed me a trailer this morning | 0:58:18 | 0:58:21 | |
with the snow behind her and such a
big, beaming, beautiful smile. She | 0:58:21 | 0:58:26 | |
is such a beautiful little girl.
Thank you very much indeed, James. | 0:58:26 | 0:58:30 | |
As always, the debates will continue
online and on Twitter. | 0:58:30 | 0:58:32 | |
Next week we're in Glasgow,
so do join us then. | 0:58:32 | 0:58:35 | |
But for now, it's goodbye
and have a great Sunday. | 0:58:35 | 0:58:37 | |
Thank you so much for watching. That
was your Big Questions. | 0:58:37 | 0:58:47 |
The Big Questions comes live from the University of Sussex in Brighton with Nicky Campbell asking:
Should the people have the final say on the terms of Brexit?
Should doctors decide when to withdraw life-saving treatment from children?