Episode 9 The Big Questions


Episode 9

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Today on The Big Questions...

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The arms industry - a matter

of pride or a matter

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of shame for Britain?

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And obesity - whose fault

is it if you're too fat?

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APPLAUSE

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Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell.

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Welcome to The Big Questions.

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Today we're live from

Lliswerry High School

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in Newport, South Wales.

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Welcome, everybody,

to The Big Questions.

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APPLAUSE

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Britain is very good

at making weapons, armoured

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vehicles, fighter planes,

bombs and ammunition.

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So good that we're the second

biggest arms dealer in the world,

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outgunned only by the USA.

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This week, there's been a very

important customer in town -

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Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman

of Saudi Arabia.

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Lunch with the Queen,

dinner with the Prince

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of Wales and Prince William,

and a meeting with the Prime

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Minister at Chequers have all been

aimed at getting him to sign a deal

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to buy 48 Typhoon jet fighters,

amongst other things.

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The deal is good news for the 5,000

BAE Systems employees

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in Lancashire that assemble them.

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But protesters against

the Saudi Prince were more concerned

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at the Saudi-led bombardment

and blockade of Yemen and its

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ensuing humanitarian disaster.

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Should Britain be proud

of its arms trade?

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Brad, is the arms trade immoral?

I

think arms in themselves are immoral

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and the question we talk about,

pride in what? One of the things the

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arms trade will always do this if

you start to critique it, they will

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immediately say you are bringing

into question the pride of the

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worker, nobody I know who critiques

the arms trade wants to bring into

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question the integrity of the

workers. They can only produce arms,

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I do not think that. What we have to

bring into question is that arms and

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the consequences. Whenever we think

about guns in America, start with

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the shootings at schools, the same

with the arms trade. These weapons

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are designed to kill.

We need an

army and the Army needs to be

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killed.

Do we need an army? We start

this understanding of politics which

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big guns -- which begins with the

fact that humans are naturally

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violent, we know in the

20th-century, we know that... Can we

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not think of a different type of

politics? I think human beings...

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APPLAUSE

Philip Dunne, lots to get our teeth

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into, let me ask you about Saudi

Arabia, why are we sucking up to a

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regime which has caused thousands of

deaths in the Yemen, it flogs

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atheist bloggers, stages public

beheadings, kills homosexuals,

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spreads extremism across the

world...

I will answer that in the

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second. I must pick up Brad's

comments...

Do the Saudi Arabia

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point first.

Should we haven't

military? -- should we have a

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military?

Saudi Arabia first.

2007,

the crown princes at it, to

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encourage him in the work he is

doing in modernising his nation, the

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first leader of that most important

country in the Gulf, a key UK ally

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in trying to get to grips with

decades of internal repression and

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corruption and trying to introduce

moderate Islam, rather than the

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extreme version they have been

having, trying to modernise the

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economy, he has tried to do a lot of

good stuff very quickly. It is

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absolutely right we should welcome

him to this country, to try to

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encourage him in what he is doing,

and the package you referred to

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about the defence potential, it was

a small element of a much bigger

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programme of economic cooperation.

It is not a small element of the

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people in Yemen suffering, being

killed by the Saudi bombing. It is

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really about whitewashing the Saudi

war crimes and unfortunately that is

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what we see in the UK's relationship

with Saudi Arabia, it is based

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largely around the arms trade and we

know what the arms are being used

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for, for war crimes, for attacks on

civilians, attacks on

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infrastructure. As long as the UK is

selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, we

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are complicit in the violence and we

have to put an end to it.

The Army

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point. We need to have an army.

I do

not think that is the question at

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hand, actually.

We have plenty of

time, I would like to address that,

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Brad said we do not necessarily need

one.

In an ideal world, no one wants

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to see a world with the conflict we

have right now and we should keep

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our eye on that aim. In the

meantime, there are specific things

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we can do to reduce and to stop some

of the worst humanitarian crises,

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some of the worst crimes happening

in this world, and that arms trade

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is fuelling war and conflict around

the world and the UK is playing a

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central role in that so the first

thing we should be doing is ending

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the arms trade to countries like

Saudi Arabia, many other countries,

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committing war crimes, we know what

the arms are being used for, we

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cannot let them go in that way.

I am

sure we will come onto this, but the

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court threw out the allegation that

there was clear evidence of

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humanitarian...

It is clear.

It was

thrown out by the court. The

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question web Brad started us off,

why do we have an army? We have an

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army to defend the country from

threat and the threats are multiple

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and growing, staked on state

threats, we thought following the

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cold war much of that was behind us,

it is evident we cannot, and we are

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seeing now threats coming daily,

every minute, threats coming across

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the internet affecting all of our

lives potentially, and much of those

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threats are dealt with with military

capability.

Attacks on civilians in

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Yemen and other places, for our

security, that is preposterous.

The

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attack in Salisbury last weekend,

British military scientists who

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developed the diagnostic tests which

helped stamp out the Ebola virus...

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And also in the 50s, developed nerve

agents as well.

Getting back to the

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topic of defence exports and

capability, defence industry

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supports the military in this

country and the innovation and are

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indeed that comes with that, from

space, which helped to generate our

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GPS, huge civilian crossover which

would not exist -- R&D.

The idea

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that an army existed defend a nation

is an art model. It is international

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peacekeeping, so called humanitarian

and peacekeeping, in terms of the

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arms trade...

They cannot do it with

chocolate is. There is a fundamental

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contradiction.

On the one hand

saying we need to go to Iraq and

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liberate them, and then they will

sell arms to regime is going

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precisely against the democratic

movement of the Arab Spring.

We end

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up with Isis.

There is a fundamental

conflict. The fundamental question,

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you are right, the question about

the Army is an existential question,

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it is a fundamental aim which we

should all try to achieve because

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rather than saying, let us

monopolise violence, let us put

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violence itself constantly on trial,

but the arms trade is the starting

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point, what does it mean to

demilitarise the world?

James

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McLaren.

It is to establish the

aspect of the world order to

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establish and maintain armies and

Armed Forces, it will happen, and

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while you have that, you will have

an arms trade.

The challenge is to

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make sure it is properly regulated,

controlled unchallenged. Is it,

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James?

If you're going to ask about

this country, my view is, yes,

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but... The reason I say that, in

2002, the then Labour government

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introduced the export controls that,

the first time legislation around

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arms sales had been reintroduced

since 1931, a stepping stone. Since

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then, we have got much better in

this country with a cross

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participation of government

departments to make sure our exports

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are undertaken legitimately and

appropriately.

Still arming Saudi

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Arabia, Egypt...

16,000 export

licences go unchallenged every year.

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No one is challenging us about

selling operational patrol boats.

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The. We will come back to what is

admittedly a very debatable area of

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arms exports, to Saudi Arabia, but

at the strategic level, arms sales

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will take place.

It about the

regulations.

Andrew Smith. UK

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fighter jets are right now dropping

bombs over Yemen. If the UK

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Government, it has been totally

complicit in it. This week we have

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seen how low the Government is

prepared to sink to sell weapons to

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a dictatorship.

If you did not have

those bombs, you would have Russian

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analogue unguided cluster munitions

doing it. You would not have

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oversight in the Saudi chain of

command of what actually is going

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on.

This is where there is a rank

hypocrisy at the heart of the

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foreign policy based on talking

about imports of human rights and

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democracy while also arming and

supporting brutal regime is. Even

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mentioning Russia, for example, the

UK was exporting weapons to Russia

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until 2014, and we are exporting to

China as we speak, all around the

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world, to regime is we would all

agree have inflicted terrible brutal

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assaults on human rights...

You

represent a lot of people working in

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the arms industry as well, are they

conflicted when they realise where

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the end product, the end

destination, if you like, of their

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labours are going?

They care about

the end destination, but the choices

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in terms of the use of the arms for

politicians the regime 's that

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actually have them. We as a union

take the view that military

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deployment is the responsibility of

politicians and the government, but

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once the Armed Forces are deployed

on civilians and support, they are

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entitled to the best resources to

support them. There has been an

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interesting iteration of the debate

already, the arms trade, but we are

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rapidly talking about manufacture of

arms in any form, at all. I think

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whilst people can have deep concerns

about the use of arms

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internationally exported, the idea

that people do not want us to

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manufacture arms to at least defend

national interests, but as a whole

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other debate. Critically, we are

talking about hundreds of thousands

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of jobs here and I have no qualms

about pointing that out. These are

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jobs that are vital to

communities...

High quality.

One of

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the things that I think Brad touches

on, not a single product for defence

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workers, it needs to be calm and

evidence -based, the debate, because

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history tells us defence

diversification is not particularly

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successful. We talk about it but the

case studies do not show much in the

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way of success. Defence

diversification would be happening

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at a time when more than one part of

our economy is looking at the

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question of transition, a lot of

members in energy, often an adjacent

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sector to defence, changes from

large power stations to renewable...

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A whole chain of industry is

involved and there is a simple limit

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to the extent to which we can

diversify quickly.

What would these

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people do, Ryvka Barnard?

It is a

really important question and what

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we need is decision-makers to be

putting attention to that question

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very specifically.

What is the

answer?

Everyone should have access

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to good jobs providing good

livelihoods and it is a question of

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political will, we need to be

forward-looking and visionary.

Where

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would you put that expertise?

We

need to look at what is the

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investment in industry that could

create and sustain thousands and

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thousands of jobs?

What might it be?

Not leading to the destruction and

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death that the arms trade is.

Renewable energy is one. It is a

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question of political will, not

necessarily a question of

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feasibility and we need more studies

and careful attention to this.

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Renewables is the source of jobs

which is quoted by every group

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interested in diversification. We

will have to create a lot of

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renewables jobs to soak up the

displaced jobs.

It is a very urgent

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issue in our world.

We hear about

the industrial military complex,

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real relationships between

politicians and arms manufacturers,

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when you were ministers for defence

procurement, I'm sure you had a lot

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of meetings with arms manufacturers?

We have a very significant industry

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in this country, as Mike says,

employing many people.

People are

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worried about those relationships.

Many are providing and doing

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multiple things. They did at the

moment for GKN, a major motor

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component manufacturer, and also in

aerospace and defence. Much of the

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key issue is innovation that comes

out of investing primarily initially

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for military purposes and carrying

over which would not happen if we

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did not have a defence purpose.

Hands up, a word on the

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relationships and what people worry

about, a symbiotic relationship

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between the politicians and the arms

industry, is that a genuine concern?

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The arms industry is a very small

part of the economy, export jobs

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account for 0.2% of jobs in the

country, a very loud voice and

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power. It does employ extremely

skilled people and we want the

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skills put into more positive areas

of engineering to have a more

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positive impact, not an industry

which leads to war and conflict.

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Such us, renewables?

Renewables

would be one area, we need to look

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at other areas, what can the

Government do to grow the areas? The

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arms trade as a huge amount of

political support and logistical

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support from Whitehall and the

emphasis needs to be put elsewhere.

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Is there a genuine concern between

the relationship between politicians

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and the arms industry or is Philip

Dunne right, are they necessary?

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There has to be a real concern. The

Royal family has been seeing to be

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involved in arms promotion.

We have

become embedded and people listen to

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it.

With the war in Yemen, where is

the diplomatic way to start that?

We

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can talk about the war in Yemen if

you like.

Let's talk about the

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influence we can wield in those

situations, bringing Saudi Arabia on

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that progressive past. Some people

argue that... I will come to you in

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a minute. Who is proud of our arms

industry in the audience? That's

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come to you if you are. He was

ashamed of our arms industry?

You

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are proud of it. At the end of the

day, it is fair. 142,000 people are

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employed in it. It is beneficial to

the country in general.

A lot of

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jobs. Anyone else want to say

anything?

Morning. Nobody here would

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want, given the choice, nobody here

would want to arm any nation. It

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would be fantastic if we didn't have

a need for arms. As we do, like the

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gentleman in front of me mentioned,

we have to live in the world as it

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is and be pragmatic about things.

There are certain areas that take us

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to Amman where they are repressing

freedom of association and that is

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not a good idea.

We should

scrutinise what we sell. To buy the

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argument that if we were not selling

arms to these people than the would?

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We have to live in the real world

and look after our own interests.

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Our own strategic interests. It is

kind of a soft power, isn't it?

The

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term, security, and the phrase

strategic interests get used to

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cover up what really is politicians

and arms dealers getting together

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and making a profit actually. Where

is the strategic interest for war

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crimes in Yemen for the killing of

civilians, thousands of civilians,

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many of whom are children? How does

that meet any strategic interest of

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the UK?

One of the operational tasks

of the British navy which has been

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in place for the last 15 years or

so, has been to keep through our

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minesweeping vessels the channels

between the Gulf and outside the

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golf open from harassment from

Iranians attempts to block those

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channels. That provides the vast

majority of our gas resource, which

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comes out of the Gulf and oil into

this country and other countries

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around the world. That activity is

being provided by the British

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military in conjunction with our

allies and in particular your

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countrymen in the US. If we weren't

doing that, there would be a serious

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risk of disruption of supplies to

the energy of this country. How many

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lives? No lives have been lost

through that.

What do you mean, what

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is the cost?

There is a cost of war

and a cost of conflict.

It is not

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conflict, it is preventing conflict.

People are being killed in Yemen or

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other places.

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other places.

We are missing how the

real world works. That is how the

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real world works. The war in Yemen

is a legitimate war. It is not being

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prosecuted as it should be but you

are not helping the people of Yemen

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who are suffering so much if you

remove what are highly capable

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munitions with people who are able

to use them and advise on them with

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the unguided, horrible weapons we

are seeing used in Syria if you want

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to replace British munitions with

Russian barrel bombs or Syrian

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barrel bombs that will not help the

Yemen people.

There is something the

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arms trade does in terms of the

Logic applied to this industry and

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nothing else. Our refill of Columbia

started to say, we are proud of our

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cocaine industry? We know it kills

people. We can regulate it better

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but another nation will produce

cocaine so we might as well produce

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it. If we apply the logic that, why

do we apply this logic. In that

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kills people? This is the logic we

need to be happening.

What about the

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cocaine analogy?

The Constitution of

Armed Forces bears no relationship

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whatsoever to the cocaine industry.

That is another rabbit hole

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compensation.

People in Yemen are

injuring one of the worst

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humanitarian crises in the world. In

2017 50,000 children died of

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preventable causes. We have seen 1

million people being affected with

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cholera in Yemen following a

breakdown of health infrastructure

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up and down the country. This does

not suggest the Saudi intervention

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is doing any that things were ever

told it would. It suggests Saudi

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forces are not being moderated by UK

influence. What about Iran? They are

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playing a negative role in the

region full is we do not support

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selling weapons to Iran. We do not

support selling arms to Iran, nor

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selling more arms into a region

which Reddy has quite enough arms

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and quite enough conflict.

Is the

international response to Yemen

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good? No, it is not. Would the

removal of UK armaments to that

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debate make any difference? No, it

would not.

It would make it worse.

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It would make a difference?

Absolutely it would. The arms are

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fuelling the conflict and causing

civilian deaths. It would absolutely

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interrupted the conflict. Instead of

focusing energy on arming the

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aggressor in that situation, we

would be able to redirect resources

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into looking at the humanitarian

crisis.

What about getting on the

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phone to Putin?

It is as those they

are the only two possibilities. It

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is an over syndication of how

international politics works. It is

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not as simple as one or the other,

as though that is the end of the

0:22:380:22:42

conversation. We need to be

accountable in this country for what

0:22:420:22:46

our government does, and the

decisions that the Government is

0:22:460:22:49

making here. The arms trade with

Saudi Arabia and other repressive

0:22:490:22:53

regimes around the world has two

end.

OK.

Yes. Hello. Good morning.

0:22:530:22:59

We should be accountable. Why can't

we make a stand and say we care more

0:22:590:23:06

about human rights than making

money?

What about jobs?

What about

0:23:060:23:09

all the jobs? I know the jobs White

human are sacrificed.

If it is about

0:23:090:23:18

jobs versus human rights committee

is not a true choice.

It is being

0:23:180:23:21

presented in that way in the context

of a debate. The UK at his two

0:23:210:23:26

international treaties and has a

strong record on transparency. The

0:23:260:23:32

current events in the Middle East

and Saudi Arabia require the most

0:23:320:23:36

careful investigation and suspension

in relation to that particular

0:23:360:23:41

aspect of the arms trade. We get

very close when we moved from the

0:23:410:23:45

arms trade to manufacture of weapons

more generally. People in this

0:23:450:23:50

country don't expect national

security be expected. To give is the

0:23:500:23:53

rule of law and the space to have

debates like this. Arms provide the

0:23:530:24:01

rule of law ultimately. They provide

circumstances in which we can have

0:24:010:24:03

these debates.

If you don't mind...

I will come to you to come to that.

0:24:030:24:11

Let me just go to the audience.

I am

not sure it should be a clear-cut

0:24:110:24:16

thing as to whether we should be

proud of our arms industry in

0:24:160:24:20

general. We can give our military

defence without having to sell 48

0:24:200:24:27

Typhoon jets to Saudi Arabia. We are

still saving some jobs and we don't

0:24:270:24:31

need to fuel the anti-human rights

countries but we can still provide

0:24:310:24:35

our country defence.

We have to be

realistic. Coming back to what this

0:24:350:24:41

gentleman said, about keeping the

avenues to bring things back into

0:24:410:24:51

the Suez Canal. I have been on two

cruises in Dubai, Muscat, by

0:24:510:24:59

Somalia, by Saudi Arabia, through

the Suez Canal. When you see on the

0:24:590:25:03

map, Saudi Arabia is a very big part

and to be able to protect us, we

0:25:030:25:13

have had frigates there. They have

to protect against Somalia. There is

0:25:130:25:17

a Japanese frigate there to keep the

Suez Canal open.

You need arms to do

0:25:170:25:22

that?

We have to trust the

politicians who know the full

0:25:220:25:27

details to be there.

The human

rights abuses of people in Yemen is

0:25:270:25:31

not contingent on us having a safe

holiday in the Suez Canal. We have

0:25:310:25:35

to relate these questions much more

broadly and reducing it to economic

0:25:350:25:41

official way of justifying violence.

You remove the ethical question. I

0:25:410:25:44

am not saying that overnight all of

these populations would become

0:25:440:25:48

unemployed but I do think the

research in investment, millions

0:25:480:25:53

goes into research and development

in the military. Why is it we have

0:25:530:25:57

this model where all the money for

research and developers goes into

0:25:570:26:02

the military diagram for power? That

is a political choice.

I'm afraid

0:26:020:26:09

that has to be counted. The conflict

in Yemen was not started by us

0:26:090:26:14

supplying arms to Saudi Arabia. It

was a civil war that had been going

0:26:140:26:17

on for four years. It was a request

to the Saudis by the legitimate

0:26:170:26:21

government of the yen -- the Yemen

for an intervention to try to bring

0:26:210:26:27

it to an end. The rebels were

starting to use Iranians missiles to

0:26:270:26:32

fire into Saudi Arabia. It was a

legitimate intervention. The

0:26:320:26:36

allegation it has led to war crimes

are serious allegations which were

0:26:360:26:39

put by people on your side of the

argument. Took the British

0:26:390:26:44

government to court and

Parliamentary committees agreed it

0:26:440:26:46

was appropriate for the courts to

make a decision as to whether or not

0:26:460:26:50

international he managed Terry and

laws have been broken. The courts

0:26:500:26:54

decided quite clearly that was not

the case. -- humanitarian laws.

The

0:26:540:27:02

regime in Yemen has a right to be

able to defend itself.

Do they not?

0:27:020:27:10

None of that has anything to do with

the UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia or

0:27:100:27:15

other places. There is a political

map we must pay attention to and

0:27:150:27:20

look at. Absolutely. That is the

argument we are making. When the

0:27:200:27:25

arms trade is at the centre of that

analysis, or at the centre of the

0:27:250:27:30

conversation, at the centre of

investment, we cannot have an open

0:27:300:27:34

and transparent conversation about

it because it is being dominated by

0:27:340:27:37

the sort of need for more arms

constantly. Our politicians are not

0:27:370:27:42

going to be making honest decisions

about this if they are being wined

0:27:420:27:46

and dined by the arms industry

constantly which is unfortunately

0:27:460:27:49

the case with many of the

politicians.

To go to court is the

0:27:490:27:55

highest level of scrutiny you can

have. The court agreed it had

0:27:550:28:00

happened but also what has happened

is the Saudis definitely have an

0:28:000:28:04

operational problem in the use of

some of the munitions they have. No

0:28:040:28:07

doubt about that. The UK Government

has offered more training and advice

0:28:070:28:12

on it and it is giving that to them.

There was a point made earlier about

0:28:120:28:16

why research and develop and is so

important. The reason is that is how

0:28:160:28:20

we have been able to generate the

next level of weapons technology

0:28:200:28:23

which we are able to discriminate.

In writing capable hands there is

0:28:230:28:28

not collateral damage you would have

had in previous conflicts we're not

0:28:280:28:32

bearing that in mind.

Just finally,

by having trade contacts with these

0:28:320:28:38

countries and seeing it and framing

it in the way of self power, this is

0:28:380:28:46

a big part of this and you will have

a say on this, can we exert an

0:28:460:28:51

influence and bring countries,

because the Prince is a progressive

0:28:510:28:56

prince, a reforming prince, can we

encourage that by having dialogues

0:28:560:28:59

that go in tandem with these sales?

Absolutely not. It is a myth

0:28:590:29:04

actually. You cannot have influence

and to stop violence for example

0:29:040:29:12

while giving alms to the perpetrator

of violence.

Theresa May is raising

0:29:120:29:18

issues with him.

Not while providing

him with weapons. Not just him, it

0:29:180:29:23

is actually a long problem with

Saudi Arabia and many other

0:29:230:29:26

repressive regimes around the world.

You don't stop violence by giving

0:29:260:29:31

weapons to the perpetrator of

violence. It has never happened and

0:29:310:29:34

it is not how it works.

We have to

leave it there. I'm so sorry. If you

0:29:340:29:41

have any views on obesity, please be

free to come in on the next debate.

0:29:410:29:46

Thank you very much indeed.

0:29:460:29:49

You can join in all this

morning's debates by logging

0:29:490:29:52

on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions

and following the link

0:29:520:29:53

to the online discussion.

0:29:530:29:54

Or you can tweet using #bbctbq.

0:29:540:30:02

I always look at that after the

show.

0:30:030:30:05

Tell us what you think

about our next Big Question too.

0:30:050:30:08

Is obesity a matter

of personal responsibility?

0:30:080:30:10

And if you'd like to apply

to be in the audience

0:30:100:30:12

at a future show, you can email

[email protected]

0:30:120:30:14

We're in Brighton next week,

then Glasgow on March 25th.

0:30:140:30:17

After the Easter break,

we'll be in York on April 8th

0:30:170:30:21

to make two editions -

the usual live programme

0:30:210:30:23

in the morning, then we're recording

a one-hour special on the future

0:30:230:30:26

of the National Health

Service in the afternoon.

0:30:260:30:34

Britain needs to go on a diet,

according to the head

0:30:360:30:39

of Public Health England,

Duncan Selbie.

0:30:390:30:41

"Children and adults routinely

eat too many calories,

0:30:410:30:44

and it's why so many are overweight

or obese," he said this week.

0:30:440:30:48

He wants a 20% reduction

in the calories contained

0:30:480:30:51

in foods like pizzas,

ready meals, processed

0:30:510:30:56

meats, and takeaways

over the next six years.

0:30:560:30:59

If food manufacturers

don't heed his advice,

0:30:590:31:02

he'll ask the Government

to legislate, just as they have

0:31:020:31:06

done with the sugar tax

on sweetened soft drinks,

0:31:060:31:09

which comes into force next month.

0:31:090:31:13

No one is forced to consume sugary

drinks or eat fatty foods.

0:31:130:31:16

It's a matter of personal

taste and choice.

0:31:160:31:18

Is obesity a matter

of personal responsibility?

0:31:180:31:21

Ashley, good morning. We need to do

something, we need to ban junk food

0:31:210:31:29

advertising, this sugar tax, a fact

tax, teach people to limit calories

0:31:290:31:35

--

0:31:350:31:40

-- fat tax. Something must be done.

I would disagree with that. A lot of

0:31:410:31:49

what is propose would make things

worse. There is a need to temper

0:31:490:31:53

some of the hyperbole with which the

issue is being communicated. It will

0:31:530:31:59

only make sense of speaking of it as

an academic if it is a

0:31:590:32:07

life-threatening disease, it is not.

Very very thin people and very, very

0:32:070:32:13

fat people. There is a slightly

decreased risk of mortality in the

0:32:130:32:18

so-called overweight category. There

is a lot of moralism and I think

0:32:180:32:21

this issue is a way of communicating

aesthetic and moral and behavioural

0:32:210:32:27

judgments, how people should think,

act and behave through a medicalised

0:32:270:32:33

vocabulary because policymakers have

lost the vocabulary to communicate

0:32:330:32:35

with the public in any other way.

Kathleen, you do not think there is

0:32:350:32:39

any need for sugary drinks?

You

would ban them? I think they should

0:32:390:32:44

be banned. I do not think there is

any feasible reason to have a two

0:32:440:32:51

litre drink that can pack 1000

calories in a 500 millilitres

0:32:510:32:57

serving, it is ridiculous.

You do

not have to drink it all at once.

0:32:570:33:03

No, but why would you choose to have

14 sugars in your cup of coffee? It

0:33:030:33:09

is the same thing. Why put it in a

drink when there is no need.

How

0:33:090:33:14

would you stop people drinking it?

This is where we get to the morally

0:33:140:33:21

ambiguous area.

We are there!

People

have the choice of what they are

0:33:210:33:29

going to put in the body,

absolutely. However, we have to

0:33:290:33:33

admit and understands that we do

live in what is... It is a state run

0:33:330:33:43

education system, everything is led

by the Government and the way we

0:33:430:33:47

live our lives and that access to

education we receive and everything

0:33:470:33:50

else is given to us by our

government. When it comes to sugary

0:33:500:33:55

drinks especially, should parents

have the right to serve their

0:33:550:34:00

children that much sugar when we

know...

Should they? When we know

0:34:000:34:06

the health ramifications of that...

Should they have that right?

0:34:060:34:14

Personally, I don't think so. I do

not think any parent in their right

0:34:140:34:18

mind should be feeding an infant

something...

What about an ice

0:34:180:34:28

cream?

Come on! Ice cream is a

treat.

A drink is a treat.

You do

0:34:280:34:34

not have a drink as a treat, you

have them daily. When we are talking

0:34:340:34:39

about the consumption of sugary

drinks, you generally find those

0:34:390:34:43

people who have the sugary drinks,

it builds an almost addiction so

0:34:430:34:47

they drink more and children, we are

seeing dental problems.

This is what

0:34:470:34:53

I am talking about, how it has

become a way of talking about a lot

0:34:530:34:59

of preoccupations, a lot of

ambivalence about parenting in

0:34:590:35:01

society right now, there is a

distrust of pounds has been able to

0:35:010:35:10

exercise has an ability -- there is

a distrust of parents being able to

0:35:100:35:15

exercise responsibility for the next

generation, this idea of a hapless

0:35:150:35:19

parent pumping sugar into their

children.

I absolutely agree with

0:35:190:35:22

you.

We enlist children into this as

a way of saying, people can make the

0:35:220:35:29

choice to live their lives as they

choose, but think of the children.

0:35:290:35:35

If we remove the children from the

equation, we know cigarettes are

0:35:350:35:40

very harmful and alcohol, cigarettes

and alcohol are taxed extremely

0:35:400:35:45

highly...

They are not banned.

They

are put out of the financial reach

0:35:450:35:50

of a lot of people. You bring in

this question, is it only the poor

0:35:500:35:56

people who will suffer from the

sugar tax? Is it only the property

0:35:560:36:04

stricken -- poverty stricken

parent...

The taxes will not do

0:36:040:36:08

anything, it is symbolic politics,

the sense we know the causes of the

0:36:080:36:13

obesity problem, we know what to

do...

Why not just get rid of the

0:36:130:36:18

sugary drink substance that we know

causes harm?

Getting a very hard

0:36:180:36:24

time, the food industry, in all

this, get rid of half of their

0:36:240:36:27

products, they are seen as some

people... Cocaine mentioned in the

0:36:270:36:32

last debate, some people look on

them as drug dealers.

I think this

0:36:320:36:36

is because the Government does not

feel it can do much about physical

0:36:360:36:42

activity, it is a rise of sedentary

lifestyles and jobs in particular

0:36:420:36:47

that has gone along with the rise of

obesity but it can do something

0:36:470:36:52

about the food industry. We see

tobacco style regulations being put

0:36:520:36:56

forward, junk food brand on

television, health warnings...

Are

0:36:560:37:01

they a good thing?

Absolutely not.

Very damaging to those...

Why? There

0:37:010:37:08

is no such thing as junk food.

No

legal definition. We have food high

0:37:080:37:14

in fat, sugar and salt and it is a

huge range of products. We would not

0:37:140:37:20

see Nigella Lawson's Christmas

adverts until after the watershed if

0:37:200:37:24

this ban came in, sugary drinks,

chocolate bars, bacon, cheese,

0:37:240:37:28

orange juice... That would be bad

for business and consumers and the

0:37:280:37:36

media, not the BBC, but the

commercial stations, the so-called

0:37:360:37:39

junk food brand...

It is a tale of

two industries, the arms industry

0:37:390:37:47

and the food industry, tremendously

important this country.

It is,

0:37:470:37:51

similar in the sense because people

are blaming...

One comes quickly,

0:37:510:37:55

the other comes slowly.

What is

going on currently and what will

0:37:550:37:59

happen over the next three, four

years, with this crazy policy of

0:37:590:38:04

reducing calories in food by 20%, we

will see products getting much less

0:38:040:38:08

tasty, and we will see them get

smaller because a lot of them, you

0:38:080:38:14

cannot reformulate them to make them

healthier, you have to make them

0:38:140:38:17

smaller. People are blaming it on

Brexit, smaller chocolate bars, it

0:38:170:38:22

is Public Health England's targets,

it is a rip-off, very bad for

0:38:220:38:27

consumers, not doing anything for

obesity.

Professor Nadim Haboubi, a

0:38:270:38:33

consultant, chairman of the Welsh

obesity society, a matter of choice?

0:38:330:38:36

It is not. Absolutely not. Obesity

the disease,, A complex disease. I

0:38:360:38:45

see thousands of patients over the

last many years, so many reasons why

0:38:450:38:53

they are wood-macro, genetics,

environmental, social, they are

0:38:530:38:56

desperate to lose weight, so many

factors that have made them obese --

0:38:560:39:04

they are obese. It is about

activity, not just food, it is about

0:39:040:39:08

sedentary lives, these people need

help. Help from wire? Health

0:39:080:39:12

professionals, the media. -- help

from where? The Government. Who had

0:39:120:39:20

the power to coordinate all of this

in order to combat the silent

0:39:200:39:23

killer, the disease, obesity? Only

the government. I think the

0:39:230:39:31

government should... I am one of

those who advocate there should be

0:39:310:39:35

tax on junk food because junk food

now is very affordable, that is why

0:39:350:39:43

I practice in the hottest obesity

spot in the UK.

What is junk food?

0:39:430:39:52

Anything high in calories, fat,

sugar and salt.

A little does you

0:39:520:39:57

good, now and again, once a week?

Wait a minute.

They can is one of

0:39:570:40:02

the great joys of life.

It is a

killer. -- acre Babb is one of the

0:40:020:40:07

great joys of life. You have to run

three miles to burn it off.

If that

0:40:070:40:16

is the deal, that is the deal!

You

want to translate food into this

0:40:160:40:23

biochemical thing, but only so much

good in your mouth as the powers

0:40:230:40:27

deem acceptable, but that is not

what food is about, it is a social

0:40:270:40:32

thing, a cultural thing, continuity

between generations, enjoyment, all

0:40:320:40:37

of this hectoring people, it turns

off a huge portion of the population

0:40:370:40:41

from the political class because it

offers nothing to people accept...

0:40:410:40:46

The future will be terrible, we will

take away your small pleasures, that

0:40:460:40:50

sort of thing, people are, like, no,

thanks.

The people having take away

0:40:500:40:56

several times a day, is that a

choice? Why are they doing that?

0:40:560:41:01

They need help.

I would like to add

in the, Professor Haboubi, I think

0:41:010:41:09

obesity.

Can I introduce you? Holly

MacGillivray, plus size model,

0:41:090:41:17

positive body campaigner.

It is one

of the only accepted prejudices

0:41:170:41:23

still out there. I do not have a

moral obligation to be smaller, to

0:41:230:41:27

go on a diet, to fit into your idea

of what I should look like and

0:41:270:41:32

which...

APPLAUSE

0:41:320:41:36

And once again, we are making

stereotypes.

Do you think I eat a

0:41:360:41:41

takeaway every day, Professor

Haboubi?

Did I say that?

You said,

0:41:410:41:47

these people, I am wood-macro, I am

not eating a takeaway every night --

0:41:470:41:53

I am obese.

I said it is complicated

by many factors, not caused only by

0:41:530:42:01

eating junk food, so many things.

Emotional things, psychological

0:42:010:42:07

things. I deal with the subject in

an individualised manner.

What do

0:42:070:42:12

you think of the body positive idea?

The bigger you are, the more

0:42:120:42:18

unhealthy you are, whether you like

it or not. If you are well and

0:42:180:42:21

healthy at the age of 20, if you are

not diabetic now, you are

0:42:210:42:27

prediabetic, maybe...

I agree, of

course, the bigger you are, the more

0:42:270:42:31

and healthy you are, I am not

ignorant of science, I totally

0:42:310:42:34

understand, if you eat too many

calories, your waistband will

0:42:340:42:38

expand. However, it is not that

simple.

Cancer is more common in

0:42:380:42:46

those who are obese.

This narrative

of we are eating too many calories,

0:42:460:42:54

it makes a nice, simple public

health message, but the science is

0:42:540:42:59

not that straightforward, it is

extraordinarily complicated. Say we

0:42:590:43:02

will reduce the calories in the

food, a huge amount of the science

0:43:020:43:06

is going the other direction, that

means we will probably put more

0:43:060:43:10

carbohydrate in the food and people

will get more hungry or reduce

0:43:100:43:13

portion sizes, Hector even more, bad

morality, making it difficult to

0:43:130:43:22

have good policy advice.

How do you

manage the problem of obesity?

0:43:220:43:30

Ashley, answer his question.

I do

not think there is a problem of

0:43:300:43:33

obesity. The number has not

increased since 2002.

The diagnosis

0:43:330:43:40

of diabetes has doubled over the

last 20 years.

There are children

0:43:400:43:45

under the age of ten...

Children

under the age of ten, you walk along

0:43:450:43:52

the streets, any high street, you

can see three, four-year-olds who

0:43:520:43:57

are clinically obese, what would you

do about it?

We are trying to say

0:43:570:44:03

there is a certain look which is fit

and healthy and actually other

0:44:030:44:08

people, would put them on trial for

the way they look, and that to me is

0:44:080:44:12

ethically compromised. Most of... A

lot of the most physically looking

0:44:120:44:18

healthy specimens which I know has

friends have had serious mental

0:44:180:44:21

health issues, the correlation

between health and the way your body

0:44:210:44:26

looks... It connects even to the

question, I do not want to defend

0:44:260:44:31

Donald Trump, but some of the body

shaping associated with Donald Trump

0:44:310:44:36

has been abhorrent -- body shaming.

People who look a certain weight,

0:44:360:44:42

calling them somehow disease. We

need to get out of the medicalise

0:44:420:44:49

language...

Sarah? I completely

agree that it is not supposed to be

0:44:490:44:54

about how people look.

It is

problematic to say we need to move

0:44:540:44:58

away from medicalise language

because the issue is not about how

0:44:580:45:01

people look, it is about health. We

know that being overweight or obese,

0:45:010:45:06

the longer it goes on, the more it

is associated with disease outcomes

0:45:060:45:11

like cancer, heart disease,

diabetes. While it is true to say

0:45:110:45:15

that in the recent past we have not

seen rates of overweight and obesity

0:45:150:45:19

going up, they do not seem to be

going down either, more than six in

0:45:190:45:24

ten UK adults are overweight or

obese, three in ten children are, we

0:45:240:45:28

do need to do something.

What do we

need to do?

0:45:280:45:35

Some people say it is about eating

takeaways and about banning junk

0:45:350:45:40

food. Somewhat boring Lake Manyara

is in the middle for the people have

0:45:400:45:46

responsibility for what at the end

of the day they put on their trays.

0:45:460:45:51

You would banning advertising on

television?

What Cancer Research UK

0:45:510:45:59

would like to see is an extension to

the current laws we have. This

0:45:590:46:05

marketing is bad for children and we

have banned it during kids TV. Kids

0:46:050:46:08

don't just watch that, they spend

times their family. It would make

0:46:080:46:16

sense to extend regulations that we

have put into place to do.

They

0:46:160:46:23

sponsor some of the great sporting

events. There are huge problems.

0:46:230:46:27

Let's go through. Would you like to

say?

0:46:270:46:34

say?

Going on from the human level,

when you look at it on the ground,

0:46:340:46:39

people are not that motivated today.

I was thinking of a solution to it.

0:46:390:46:44

If people could all come together

and encourage one another to lose

0:46:440:46:49

weight and so on, you don't know

what goes on in their day-to-day

0:46:490:46:53

lives. You might -- they might have

something happen to them which makes

0:46:530:46:59

them depressed. Once they lose well

and gain weight and so on, only

0:46:590:47:05

together with everyone involved that

we can in Courage one another and to

0:47:050:47:10

lift ourselves back up again.

--

encourage. It starts with education.

0:47:100:47:16

There is not just one solution.

Education from children, up through

0:47:160:47:20

to adult food. Obesity is on the

rise and it is preventable, I think.

0:47:200:47:26

It does not matter what you look

like, it is about health and fitness

0:47:260:47:31

and we are living more extension we

lifestyles. There is a lot of fat

0:47:310:47:39

shaming out there but we are not

talking about that. You do see

0:47:390:47:42

people on the high street with

children and their parents and they

0:47:420:47:46

do follow the example of parents. I

am a parent now and I am a good

0:47:460:47:51

example, hopefully, to my child not

to be fatty food. It is not about

0:47:510:47:57

having takeaways seven days a week.

It is about moderation. If you

0:47:570:48:01

wanted about by the weekend then

have it as long as there is a

0:48:010:48:06

calorie deficit. On the flip side

have be careful of being too

0:48:060:48:12

educational to the fact they possess

over calories and numbers you have

0:48:120:48:16

to enjoy food for food because it is

about enjoyment as well.

The

0:48:160:48:24

question is, is obesity a matter of

personal responsibility question in

0:48:240:48:27

its most basic form, it is. We live

in an obesogenic environment.

What

0:48:270:48:37

does that mean?

Without proper

choice? When you look at takeaways

0:48:370:48:44

and chicken shops, how often does a

supermarket have a buy one get one

0:48:440:48:48

free offer on apples, compared with

ready meals which are high in salts

0:48:480:48:52

and facts and that kind of thing? On

a personal level we do all have a

0:48:520:48:58

responsibility. I am an example of

that. I had gym membership I was

0:48:580:49:02

using. I went to the gym one day

nearly two years ago and stood on

0:49:020:49:06

the scales and saw that my weight in

stones and lbs, rather than in

0:49:060:49:15

kilograms which meant nothing to me

at the time, and I saw I was 17

0:49:150:49:19

stone. I said to myself that is

going to stop.

Never the other would

0:49:190:49:23

have voted because they have their

headphones on.

I saw a programme

0:49:230:49:28

advertised on my local newspaper

website for the two days later I

0:49:280:49:31

joined that. A programme called fact

that book, I now coach in Somerset.

0:49:310:49:39

We promote an all-round approach.

--

football. What was the Association

0:49:390:49:48

of willpower like?

You're lucky if

you can afford to join a gym.

So

0:49:480:49:53

many people cannot do that. Exactly.

Now I do not have gym membership

0:49:530:49:58

because I go out running and that is

free. From the willpower point of

0:49:580:50:02

view, it was, to me, it was taking

that responsibility. It was looking

0:50:020:50:11

at... I don't promote any particular

kind of diet or anything like that.

0:50:110:50:16

What I say to the guys in my league

and we have leaks all around the

0:50:160:50:22

country, they need to make

sustainable life changes.

You tell

0:50:220:50:26

that to somebody who's pleasure in

life is a cigarette. You need to

0:50:260:50:32

make a sustainable life change that

is the difficult thing, isn't it?

0:50:320:50:40

One problem that play, it is like, I

went online the other day just

0:50:400:50:48

before I wrote a piece for the

Guardian and I do it a theoretical

0:50:480:50:55

shop for a family of four and I did

it over a period of 14 evenings. My

0:50:550:51:01

mission was to feed his family of

four for 14 evenings for the

0:51:010:51:06

cheapest I possibly could. After

going through all of the major

0:51:060:51:11

supermarkets, including a rather

well-known frozen food retailer, 75

0:51:110:51:15

chicken nuggets in batter £3. One

chicken breast to pounds 25p. A

0:51:150:51:22

cabbage 60p. Eight kilo of frying

chips, 79p. When parents can all

0:51:220:51:31

went anyone, especially when you

take single middle-aged men are a

0:51:310:51:36

perfect demographic because you find

many of them are living in one room

0:51:360:51:39

in shared houses with no cooking

facilities. How can it be a personal

0:51:390:51:48

responsibility?

What to do about the

79p bag of chips?

I would make the

0:51:480:51:53

bad stuff more expensive and the

good stuff cheaper.

How much would

0:51:530:51:57

it be in your world?

Still 79p

because that is all I can afford.

If

0:51:570:52:04

I can come back, and I will come

back to you in a minute because you

0:52:040:52:09

are Health Minister for a while. We

mentioned kebabs, on a Friday night,

0:52:090:52:17

after you have seen Scotland losing

the rugby and you're on your way

0:52:170:52:20

home, at the back. The nice thing

occasionally. Would you let yourself

0:52:200:52:25

have occasional treats like fish and

chips?

Definitely. I was out for a

0:52:250:52:30

curry last night. What I have done

through sustainable life changes I

0:52:300:52:34

have made is I have been able to

reduce my calorie intake throughout

0:52:340:52:38

the week to earn the curry, as such.

Exactly. I am one of those who

0:52:380:52:44

advocates activity. If you

0:52:440:52:52

advocates activity. If you want

this, the activity symbol would say

0:52:540:52:55

you would need to burn off this

amount. You would be surprised. 350

0:52:550:53:05

calories in a sandwich or whatever.

If you put next to it you need to

0:53:050:53:09

run a mile to burn it off, they

would probably go for something

0:53:090:53:15

without mayonnaise, for example.

As

a doctor, what do you think would

0:53:150:53:19

happen people burnt off 2000

calories a day? You would burn off

0:53:190:53:23

hundreds of calories in your sleep.

Nobody burns 3000 calories in a day.

0:53:230:53:31

-- 2000. A normal sedentary

lifestyle you would burn 2000

0:53:310:53:34

calories.

The most important single

need now is actually sedentary life.

0:53:340:53:45

You don't have to go for a run. If

you tell people they need to burn up

0:53:450:53:49

every calorie they consumed by

running they would die of starvation

0:53:490:53:53

in a week. Also with the world of

work and time, there is a huge issue

0:53:530:54:01

about lifestyle and demands of work

in terms of ability to focus on

0:54:010:54:05

these choices.

If we don't address

that we will continue to have this

0:54:050:54:09

problem.

That is what people should

care about. It is an aesthetic

0:54:090:54:14

thing. We not shaming people, it is

about your health and medical eyes

0:54:140:54:20

wave making those judgments. I don't

like the you look for your fact

0:54:200:54:24

body. I am concerned about your

health. You do not care about that.

0:54:240:54:29

You have no idea what is going in

that person's body. You do not like

0:54:290:54:36

it because they are fat.

Without

that shaming badly, I fully agree

0:54:360:54:42

with you. At that particular time I

was on water retention tablets are

0:54:420:54:46

my heart was really bad. I got out

of hospital for pneumonia is getting

0:54:460:54:50

infection after infection after

infection and I ballooned. When I

0:54:500:54:53

tried to speak, sensibly, about that

this is food poverty can this is

0:54:530:55:02

what is happening this is the

situation people are living in,

0:55:020:55:05

there are people living in single

rooms with one microwave, how are

0:55:050:55:08

they going to have billions of

vegetables? What I got was, you are

0:55:080:55:14

fat, you obviously don't go without

food. And this is the narrative that

0:55:140:55:18

people are throwing back.

Philip

Dunne, does the Government need to

0:55:180:55:25

go further?

This is what I was going

to touch on. There is a lot of talk

0:55:250:55:30

today in this very interesting

debate about education and

0:55:300:55:33

responsibility. I think education,

the Government does have a role

0:55:330:55:37

buying Courage in, as Duncan Selbie

in your introduction has done last

0:55:370:55:42

week, publication of calorific

content in stuff that people buy. --

0:55:420:55:48

encouraging. It might not answer

everything but I think the activity

0:55:480:55:52

register is quite good idea to give

that information to people as well.

0:55:520:55:56

There is an educational aspect the

Government has a role to play in and

0:55:560:56:06

the other is in responsibility. We

have introduced corporate

0:56:060:56:07

responsibility to the food chain

through requesting reduction in salt

0:56:070:56:10

on a voluntary basis which has been

very successful in bringing down

0:56:100:56:13

salt content by 20%. We are doing

the same with sugar content by

0:56:130:56:17

requesting reduction was sugar

content and with introducing a levy

0:56:170:56:22

on soft drinks. Maybe more can be

done in that area. The point that

0:56:220:56:25

was made by the Lady of their about

the wedding advertising jarring

0:56:250:56:31

children's slots, some of these

price promotions encouraging people

0:56:310:56:35

to meet more than a treat and

routinely, there is potentially a

0:56:350:56:39

role for trying to do what we have

done with tobacco for you mentioned

0:56:390:56:44

the advertising contribution made by

food manufacturers. Formula 1 is to

0:56:440:56:48

be almost entirely financed by

tobacco advertisers. We banned it

0:56:480:56:52

and make no difference. Television

companies pay for most of Formula 1

0:56:520:56:56

these days.

Chris... The question

is, is obesity personal

0:56:560:57:03

responsibility? If it is, there is

no need for government action. We

0:57:030:57:07

have not got into that question. I

think it is of the US that obesity

0:57:070:57:12

is not a personal thing. -- it is

obvious that obesity is not a

0:57:120:57:18

personal thing goes that we have

someone who has lost weight and

0:57:180:57:21

someone who is overweight and happy

being so. There is no need for

0:57:210:57:26

government action. People are obese

for an obvious reason, they are not

0:57:260:57:30

doing enough exercise, and they are

eating too much food. It is

0:57:300:57:38

perfectly feasible to make a trade

off. I don't want to go to the gym

0:57:380:57:42

and I want to eat tasty food and I

don't appreciate the Government

0:57:420:57:45

taxing and reformulating soft

drinks. It will not be possible to

0:57:450:57:56

buy proper Ribena shortly. There are

already diet drinks for those who

0:57:560:57:59

want them.

We have got to leave it

there but I think Ribena is a very

0:57:590:58:04

good idea for another debate on The

Big Questions. As always with those

0:58:040:58:10

debates will continue online and on

twitter.

0:58:100:58:12

Next week, we're in Brighton,

so do join us then.

0:58:120:58:19

Enjoy your little pleasure

throughout the day. Goodbye from

0:58:190:58:24

Newport and have a really wonderful

Mothering Sunday.

0:58:240:58:26

Nicky Campbell presents topical debate from Lliswerry High School, Newport. Should Britain be proud of its arms trade? Plus is obesity a matter of personal responsibility?


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