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Today on The Big Questions... | 0:00:01 | 0:00:04 | |
The arms industry - a matter
of pride or a matter | 0:00:04 | 0:00:06 | |
of shame for Britain? | 0:00:06 | 0:00:10 | |
And obesity - whose fault
is it if you're too fat? | 0:00:10 | 0:00:17 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:22 | 0:00:26 | |
Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:27 | |
Welcome to The Big Questions. | 0:00:27 | 0:00:29 | |
Today we're live from
Lliswerry High School | 0:00:29 | 0:00:31 | |
in Newport, South Wales. | 0:00:31 | 0:00:32 | |
Welcome, everybody,
to The Big Questions. | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:35 | 0:00:41 | |
Britain is very good
at making weapons, armoured | 0:00:41 | 0:00:43 | |
vehicles, fighter planes,
bombs and ammunition. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:47 | |
So good that we're the second
biggest arms dealer in the world, | 0:00:47 | 0:00:50 | |
outgunned only by the USA. | 0:00:50 | 0:00:56 | |
This week, there's been a very
important customer in town - | 0:00:56 | 0:00:58 | |
Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman
of Saudi Arabia. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:00 | |
Lunch with the Queen,
dinner with the Prince | 0:01:00 | 0:01:03 | |
of Wales and Prince William,
and a meeting with the Prime | 0:01:03 | 0:01:05 | |
Minister at Chequers have all been
aimed at getting him to sign a deal | 0:01:05 | 0:01:09 | |
to buy 48 Typhoon jet fighters,
amongst other things. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:15 | |
The deal is good news for the 5,000
BAE Systems employees | 0:01:15 | 0:01:17 | |
in Lancashire that assemble them. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:19 | |
But protesters against
the Saudi Prince were more concerned | 0:01:19 | 0:01:21 | |
at the Saudi-led bombardment
and blockade of Yemen and its | 0:01:21 | 0:01:23 | |
ensuing humanitarian disaster. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:25 | |
Should Britain be proud
of its arms trade? | 0:01:25 | 0:01:33 | |
Brad, is the arms trade immoral? I
think arms in themselves are immoral | 0:01:35 | 0:01:40 | |
and the question we talk about,
pride in what? One of the things the | 0:01:40 | 0:01:46 | |
arms trade will always do this if
you start to critique it, they will | 0:01:46 | 0:01:51 | |
immediately say you are bringing
into question the pride of the | 0:01:51 | 0:01:53 | |
worker, nobody I know who critiques
the arms trade wants to bring into | 0:01:53 | 0:01:59 | |
question the integrity of the
workers. They can only produce arms, | 0:01:59 | 0:02:05 | |
I do not think that. What we have to
bring into question is that arms and | 0:02:05 | 0:02:10 | |
the consequences. Whenever we think
about guns in America, start with | 0:02:10 | 0:02:14 | |
the shootings at schools, the same
with the arms trade. These weapons | 0:02:14 | 0:02:18 | |
are designed to kill. We need an
army and the Army needs to be | 0:02:18 | 0:02:22 | |
killed. Do we need an army? We start
this understanding of politics which | 0:02:22 | 0:02:27 | |
big guns -- which begins with the
fact that humans are naturally | 0:02:27 | 0:02:35 | |
violent, we know in the
20th-century, we know that... Can we | 0:02:35 | 0:02:46 | |
not think of a different type of
politics? I think human beings... | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
APPLAUSE
Philip Dunne, lots to get our teeth | 0:02:48 | 0:02:54 | |
into, let me ask you about Saudi
Arabia, why are we sucking up to a | 0:02:54 | 0:02:58 | |
regime which has caused thousands of
deaths in the Yemen, it flogs | 0:02:58 | 0:03:06 | |
atheist bloggers, stages public
beheadings, kills homosexuals, | 0:03:06 | 0:03:09 | |
spreads extremism across the
world... I will answer that in the | 0:03:09 | 0:03:16 | |
second. I must pick up Brad's
comments... Do the Saudi Arabia | 0:03:16 | 0:03:24 | |
point first. Should we haven't
military? -- should we have a | 0:03:24 | 0:03:30 | |
military? Saudi Arabia first. 2007,
the crown princes at it, to | 0:03:30 | 0:03:37 | |
encourage him in the work he is
doing in modernising his nation, the | 0:03:37 | 0:03:44 | |
first leader of that most important
country in the Gulf, a key UK ally | 0:03:44 | 0:03:47 | |
in trying to get to grips with
decades of internal repression and | 0:03:47 | 0:03:54 | |
corruption and trying to introduce
moderate Islam, rather than the | 0:03:54 | 0:03:57 | |
extreme version they have been
having, trying to modernise the | 0:03:57 | 0:04:01 | |
economy, he has tried to do a lot of
good stuff very quickly. It is | 0:04:01 | 0:04:07 | |
absolutely right we should welcome
him to this country, to try to | 0:04:07 | 0:04:12 | |
encourage him in what he is doing,
and the package you referred to | 0:04:12 | 0:04:15 | |
about the defence potential, it was
a small element of a much bigger | 0:04:15 | 0:04:21 | |
programme of economic cooperation.
It is not a small element of the | 0:04:21 | 0:04:25 | |
people in Yemen suffering, being
killed by the Saudi bombing. It is | 0:04:25 | 0:04:29 | |
really about whitewashing the Saudi
war crimes and unfortunately that is | 0:04:29 | 0:04:33 | |
what we see in the UK's relationship
with Saudi Arabia, it is based | 0:04:33 | 0:04:38 | |
largely around the arms trade and we
know what the arms are being used | 0:04:38 | 0:04:42 | |
for, for war crimes, for attacks on
civilians, attacks on | 0:04:42 | 0:04:48 | |
infrastructure. As long as the UK is
selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, we | 0:04:48 | 0:04:52 | |
are complicit in the violence and we
have to put an end to it. The Army | 0:04:52 | 0:04:58 | |
point. We need to have an army. I do
not think that is the question at | 0:04:58 | 0:05:05 | |
hand, actually. We have plenty of
time, I would like to address that, | 0:05:05 | 0:05:10 | |
Brad said we do not necessarily need
one. In an ideal world, no one wants | 0:05:10 | 0:05:14 | |
to see a world with the conflict we
have right now and we should keep | 0:05:14 | 0:05:18 | |
our eye on that aim. In the
meantime, there are specific things | 0:05:18 | 0:05:22 | |
we can do to reduce and to stop some
of the worst humanitarian crises, | 0:05:22 | 0:05:29 | |
some of the worst crimes happening
in this world, and that arms trade | 0:05:29 | 0:05:33 | |
is fuelling war and conflict around
the world and the UK is playing a | 0:05:33 | 0:05:37 | |
central role in that so the first
thing we should be doing is ending | 0:05:37 | 0:05:40 | |
the arms trade to countries like
Saudi Arabia, many other countries, | 0:05:40 | 0:05:45 | |
committing war crimes, we know what
the arms are being used for, we | 0:05:45 | 0:05:48 | |
cannot let them go in that way. I am
sure we will come onto this, but the | 0:05:48 | 0:05:53 | |
court threw out the allegation that
there was clear evidence of | 0:05:53 | 0:05:57 | |
humanitarian... It is clear. It was
thrown out by the court. The | 0:05:57 | 0:06:05 | |
question web Brad started us off,
why do we have an army? We have an | 0:06:05 | 0:06:10 | |
army to defend the country from
threat and the threats are multiple | 0:06:10 | 0:06:16 | |
and growing, staked on state
threats, we thought following the | 0:06:16 | 0:06:18 | |
cold war much of that was behind us,
it is evident we cannot, and we are | 0:06:18 | 0:06:23 | |
seeing now threats coming daily,
every minute, threats coming across | 0:06:23 | 0:06:30 | |
the internet affecting all of our
lives potentially, and much of those | 0:06:30 | 0:06:34 | |
threats are dealt with with military
capability. Attacks on civilians in | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
Yemen and other places, for our
security, that is preposterous. The | 0:06:38 | 0:06:48 | |
attack in Salisbury last weekend,
British military scientists who | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
developed the diagnostic tests which
helped stamp out the Ebola virus... | 0:06:52 | 0:06:58 | |
And also in the 50s, developed nerve
agents as well. Getting back to the | 0:06:58 | 0:07:03 | |
topic of defence exports and
capability, defence industry | 0:07:03 | 0:07:07 | |
supports the military in this
country and the innovation and are | 0:07:07 | 0:07:12 | |
indeed that comes with that, from
space, which helped to generate our | 0:07:12 | 0:07:19 | |
GPS, huge civilian crossover which
would not exist -- R&D. The idea | 0:07:19 | 0:07:28 | |
that an army existed defend a nation
is an art model. It is international | 0:07:28 | 0:07:34 | |
peacekeeping, so called humanitarian
and peacekeeping, in terms of the | 0:07:34 | 0:07:44 | |
arms trade... They cannot do it with
chocolate is. There is a fundamental | 0:07:44 | 0:07:48 | |
contradiction. On the one hand
saying we need to go to Iraq and | 0:07:48 | 0:07:54 | |
liberate them, and then they will
sell arms to regime is going | 0:07:54 | 0:07:57 | |
precisely against the democratic
movement of the Arab Spring. We end | 0:07:57 | 0:08:02 | |
up with Isis. There is a fundamental
conflict. The fundamental question, | 0:08:02 | 0:08:07 | |
you are right, the question about
the Army is an existential question, | 0:08:07 | 0:08:11 | |
it is a fundamental aim which we
should all try to achieve because | 0:08:11 | 0:08:15 | |
rather than saying, let us
monopolise violence, let us put | 0:08:15 | 0:08:19 | |
violence itself constantly on trial,
but the arms trade is the starting | 0:08:19 | 0:08:23 | |
point, what does it mean to
demilitarise the world? James | 0:08:23 | 0:08:29 | |
McLaren. It is to establish the
aspect of the world order to | 0:08:29 | 0:08:39 | |
establish and maintain armies and
Armed Forces, it will happen, and | 0:08:45 | 0:08:47 | |
while you have that, you will have
an arms trade. The challenge is to | 0:08:47 | 0:08:50 | |
make sure it is properly regulated,
controlled unchallenged. Is it, | 0:08:50 | 0:08:52 | |
James? If you're going to ask about
this country, my view is, yes, | 0:08:52 | 0:08:55 | |
but... The reason I say that, in
2002, the then Labour government | 0:08:55 | 0:09:00 | |
introduced the export controls that,
the first time legislation around | 0:09:00 | 0:09:04 | |
arms sales had been reintroduced
since 1931, a stepping stone. Since | 0:09:04 | 0:09:08 | |
then, we have got much better in
this country with a cross | 0:09:08 | 0:09:13 | |
participation of government
departments to make sure our exports | 0:09:13 | 0:09:16 | |
are undertaken legitimately and
appropriately. Still arming Saudi | 0:09:16 | 0:09:21 | |
Arabia, Egypt... 16,000 export
licences go unchallenged every year. | 0:09:21 | 0:09:30 | |
No one is challenging us about
selling operational patrol boats. | 0:09:30 | 0:09:38 | |
The. We will come back to what is
admittedly a very debatable area of | 0:09:38 | 0:09:44 | |
arms exports, to Saudi Arabia, but
at the strategic level, arms sales | 0:09:44 | 0:09:49 | |
will take place. It about the
regulations. Andrew Smith. UK | 0:09:49 | 0:09:54 | |
fighter jets are right now dropping
bombs over Yemen. If the UK | 0:09:54 | 0:10:03 | |
Government, it has been totally
complicit in it. This week we have | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
seen how low the Government is
prepared to sink to sell weapons to | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
a dictatorship. If you did not have
those bombs, you would have Russian | 0:10:11 | 0:10:16 | |
analogue unguided cluster munitions
doing it. You would not have | 0:10:16 | 0:10:23 | |
oversight in the Saudi chain of
command of what actually is going | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
on. This is where there is a rank
hypocrisy at the heart of the | 0:10:26 | 0:10:30 | |
foreign policy based on talking
about imports of human rights and | 0:10:30 | 0:10:34 | |
democracy while also arming and
supporting brutal regime is. Even | 0:10:34 | 0:10:38 | |
mentioning Russia, for example, the
UK was exporting weapons to Russia | 0:10:38 | 0:10:44 | |
until 2014, and we are exporting to
China as we speak, all around the | 0:10:44 | 0:10:48 | |
world, to regime is we would all
agree have inflicted terrible brutal | 0:10:48 | 0:10:51 | |
assaults on human rights... You
represent a lot of people working in | 0:10:51 | 0:10:59 | |
the arms industry as well, are they
conflicted when they realise where | 0:10:59 | 0:11:02 | |
the end product, the end
destination, if you like, of their | 0:11:02 | 0:11:09 | |
labours are going? They care about
the end destination, but the choices | 0:11:09 | 0:11:12 | |
in terms of the use of the arms for
politicians the regime 's that | 0:11:12 | 0:11:17 | |
actually have them. We as a union
take the view that military | 0:11:17 | 0:11:22 | |
deployment is the responsibility of
politicians and the government, but | 0:11:22 | 0:11:26 | |
once the Armed Forces are deployed
on civilians and support, they are | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
entitled to the best resources to
support them. There has been an | 0:11:30 | 0:11:34 | |
interesting iteration of the debate
already, the arms trade, but we are | 0:11:34 | 0:11:39 | |
rapidly talking about manufacture of
arms in any form, at all. I think | 0:11:39 | 0:11:44 | |
whilst people can have deep concerns
about the use of arms | 0:11:44 | 0:11:48 | |
internationally exported, the idea
that people do not want us to | 0:11:48 | 0:11:52 | |
manufacture arms to at least defend
national interests, but as a whole | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
other debate. Critically, we are
talking about hundreds of thousands | 0:11:55 | 0:11:59 | |
of jobs here and I have no qualms
about pointing that out. These are | 0:11:59 | 0:12:04 | |
jobs that are vital to
communities... High quality. One of | 0:12:04 | 0:12:09 | |
the things that I think Brad touches
on, not a single product for defence | 0:12:09 | 0:12:17 | |
workers, it needs to be calm and
evidence -based, the debate, because | 0:12:17 | 0:12:22 | |
history tells us defence
diversification is not particularly | 0:12:22 | 0:12:25 | |
successful. We talk about it but the
case studies do not show much in the | 0:12:25 | 0:12:30 | |
way of success. Defence
diversification would be happening | 0:12:30 | 0:12:32 | |
at a time when more than one part of
our economy is looking at the | 0:12:32 | 0:12:36 | |
question of transition, a lot of
members in energy, often an adjacent | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
sector to defence, changes from
large power stations to renewable... | 0:12:40 | 0:12:47 | |
A whole chain of industry is
involved and there is a simple limit | 0:12:47 | 0:12:51 | |
to the extent to which we can
diversify quickly. What would these | 0:12:51 | 0:13:00 | |
people do, Ryvka Barnard? It is a
really important question and what | 0:13:00 | 0:13:03 | |
we need is decision-makers to be
putting attention to that question | 0:13:03 | 0:13:07 | |
very specifically. What is the
answer? Everyone should have access | 0:13:07 | 0:13:11 | |
to good jobs providing good
livelihoods and it is a question of | 0:13:11 | 0:13:15 | |
political will, we need to be
forward-looking and visionary. Where | 0:13:15 | 0:13:18 | |
would you put that expertise? We
need to look at what is the | 0:13:18 | 0:13:23 | |
investment in industry that could
create and sustain thousands and | 0:13:23 | 0:13:26 | |
thousands of jobs? What might it be?
Not leading to the destruction and | 0:13:26 | 0:13:31 | |
death that the arms trade is.
Renewable energy is one. It is a | 0:13:31 | 0:13:37 | |
question of political will, not
necessarily a question of | 0:13:37 | 0:13:39 | |
feasibility and we need more studies
and careful attention to this. | 0:13:39 | 0:13:45 | |
Renewables is the source of jobs
which is quoted by every group | 0:13:45 | 0:13:49 | |
interested in diversification. We
will have to create a lot of | 0:13:49 | 0:13:53 | |
renewables jobs to soak up the
displaced jobs. It is a very urgent | 0:13:53 | 0:13:56 | |
issue in our world. We hear about
the industrial military complex, | 0:13:56 | 0:14:03 | |
real relationships between
politicians and arms manufacturers, | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
when you were ministers for defence
procurement, I'm sure you had a lot | 0:14:06 | 0:14:11 | |
of meetings with arms manufacturers?
We have a very significant industry | 0:14:11 | 0:14:15 | |
in this country, as Mike says,
employing many people. People are | 0:14:15 | 0:14:22 | |
worried about those relationships.
Many are providing and doing | 0:14:22 | 0:14:27 | |
multiple things. They did at the
moment for GKN, a major motor | 0:14:27 | 0:14:35 | |
component manufacturer, and also in
aerospace and defence. Much of the | 0:14:35 | 0:14:39 | |
key issue is innovation that comes
out of investing primarily initially | 0:14:39 | 0:14:45 | |
for military purposes and carrying
over which would not happen if we | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
did not have a defence purpose.
Hands up, a word on the | 0:14:48 | 0:14:53 | |
relationships and what people worry
about, a symbiotic relationship | 0:14:53 | 0:14:57 | |
between the politicians and the arms
industry, is that a genuine concern? | 0:14:57 | 0:15:02 | |
The arms industry is a very small
part of the economy, export jobs | 0:15:02 | 0:15:07 | |
account for 0.2% of jobs in the
country, a very loud voice and | 0:15:07 | 0:15:12 | |
power. It does employ extremely
skilled people and we want the | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
skills put into more positive areas
of engineering to have a more | 0:15:16 | 0:15:20 | |
positive impact, not an industry
which leads to war and conflict. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:28 | |
Such us, renewables? Renewables
would be one area, we need to look | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
at other areas, what can the
Government do to grow the areas? The | 0:15:31 | 0:15:36 | |
arms trade as a huge amount of
political support and logistical | 0:15:36 | 0:15:39 | |
support from Whitehall and the
emphasis needs to be put elsewhere. | 0:15:39 | 0:15:43 | |
Is there a genuine concern between
the relationship between politicians | 0:15:43 | 0:15:48 | |
and the arms industry or is Philip
Dunne right, are they necessary? | 0:15:48 | 0:15:54 | |
There has to be a real concern. The
Royal family has been seeing to be | 0:15:54 | 0:16:04 | |
involved in arms promotion. We have
become embedded and people listen to | 0:16:04 | 0:16:12 | |
it. With the war in Yemen, where is
the diplomatic way to start that? We | 0:16:12 | 0:16:21 | |
can talk about the war in Yemen if
you like. Let's talk about the | 0:16:21 | 0:16:30 | |
influence we can wield in those
situations, bringing Saudi Arabia on | 0:16:30 | 0:16:34 | |
that progressive past. Some people
argue that... I will come to you in | 0:16:34 | 0:16:40 | |
a minute. Who is proud of our arms
industry in the audience? That's | 0:16:40 | 0:16:45 | |
come to you if you are. He was
ashamed of our arms industry? You | 0:16:45 | 0:16:50 | |
are proud of it. At the end of the
day, it is fair. 142,000 people are | 0:16:50 | 0:16:56 | |
employed in it. It is beneficial to
the country in general. A lot of | 0:16:56 | 0:17:01 | |
jobs. Anyone else want to say
anything? Morning. Nobody here would | 0:17:01 | 0:17:09 | |
want, given the choice, nobody here
would want to arm any nation. It | 0:17:09 | 0:17:14 | |
would be fantastic if we didn't have
a need for arms. As we do, like the | 0:17:14 | 0:17:19 | |
gentleman in front of me mentioned,
we have to live in the world as it | 0:17:19 | 0:17:24 | |
is and be pragmatic about things.
There are certain areas that take us | 0:17:24 | 0:17:33 | |
to Amman where they are repressing
freedom of association and that is | 0:17:33 | 0:17:38 | |
not a good idea. We should
scrutinise what we sell. To buy the | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
argument that if we were not selling
arms to these people than the would? | 0:17:42 | 0:17:48 | |
We have to live in the real world
and look after our own interests. | 0:17:48 | 0:17:55 | |
Our own strategic interests. It is
kind of a soft power, isn't it? The | 0:17:55 | 0:18:00 | |
term, security, and the phrase
strategic interests get used to | 0:18:00 | 0:18:04 | |
cover up what really is politicians
and arms dealers getting together | 0:18:04 | 0:18:08 | |
and making a profit actually. Where
is the strategic interest for war | 0:18:08 | 0:18:13 | |
crimes in Yemen for the killing of
civilians, thousands of civilians, | 0:18:13 | 0:18:17 | |
many of whom are children? How does
that meet any strategic interest of | 0:18:17 | 0:18:21 | |
the UK? One of the operational tasks
of the British navy which has been | 0:18:21 | 0:18:29 | |
in place for the last 15 years or
so, has been to keep through our | 0:18:29 | 0:18:34 | |
minesweeping vessels the channels
between the Gulf and outside the | 0:18:34 | 0:18:37 | |
golf open from harassment from
Iranians attempts to block those | 0:18:37 | 0:18:45 | |
channels. That provides the vast
majority of our gas resource, which | 0:18:45 | 0:18:50 | |
comes out of the Gulf and oil into
this country and other countries | 0:18:50 | 0:18:57 | |
around the world. That activity is
being provided by the British | 0:18:57 | 0:19:01 | |
military in conjunction with our
allies and in particular your | 0:19:01 | 0:19:06 | |
countrymen in the US. If we weren't
doing that, there would be a serious | 0:19:06 | 0:19:10 | |
risk of disruption of supplies to
the energy of this country. How many | 0:19:10 | 0:19:17 | |
lives? No lives have been lost
through that. What do you mean, what | 0:19:17 | 0:19:21 | |
is the cost? There is a cost of war
and a cost of conflict. It is not | 0:19:21 | 0:19:28 | |
conflict, it is preventing conflict.
People are being killed in Yemen or | 0:19:28 | 0:19:33 | |
other places. | 0:19:33 | 0:19:40 | |
other places. We are missing how the
real world works. That is how the | 0:19:40 | 0:19:44 | |
real world works. The war in Yemen
is a legitimate war. It is not being | 0:19:44 | 0:19:50 | |
prosecuted as it should be but you
are not helping the people of Yemen | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
who are suffering so much if you
remove what are highly capable | 0:19:54 | 0:19:58 | |
munitions with people who are able
to use them and advise on them with | 0:19:58 | 0:20:03 | |
the unguided, horrible weapons we
are seeing used in Syria if you want | 0:20:03 | 0:20:07 | |
to replace British munitions with
Russian barrel bombs or Syrian | 0:20:07 | 0:20:12 | |
barrel bombs that will not help the
Yemen people. There is something the | 0:20:12 | 0:20:17 | |
arms trade does in terms of the
Logic applied to this industry and | 0:20:17 | 0:20:21 | |
nothing else. Our refill of Columbia
started to say, we are proud of our | 0:20:21 | 0:20:27 | |
cocaine industry? We know it kills
people. We can regulate it better | 0:20:27 | 0:20:31 | |
but another nation will produce
cocaine so we might as well produce | 0:20:31 | 0:20:35 | |
it. If we apply the logic that, why
do we apply this logic. In that | 0:20:35 | 0:20:45 | |
kills people? This is the logic we
need to be happening. What about the | 0:20:45 | 0:20:51 | |
cocaine analogy? The Constitution of
Armed Forces bears no relationship | 0:20:51 | 0:20:56 | |
whatsoever to the cocaine industry.
That is another rabbit hole | 0:20:56 | 0:20:59 | |
compensation. People in Yemen are
injuring one of the worst | 0:20:59 | 0:21:05 | |
humanitarian crises in the world. In
2017 50,000 children died of | 0:21:05 | 0:21:10 | |
preventable causes. We have seen 1
million people being affected with | 0:21:10 | 0:21:14 | |
cholera in Yemen following a
breakdown of health infrastructure | 0:21:14 | 0:21:18 | |
up and down the country. This does
not suggest the Saudi intervention | 0:21:18 | 0:21:21 | |
is doing any that things were ever
told it would. It suggests Saudi | 0:21:21 | 0:21:25 | |
forces are not being moderated by UK
influence. What about Iran? They are | 0:21:25 | 0:21:31 | |
playing a negative role in the
region full is we do not support | 0:21:31 | 0:21:35 | |
selling weapons to Iran. We do not
support selling arms to Iran, nor | 0:21:35 | 0:21:41 | |
selling more arms into a region
which Reddy has quite enough arms | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
and quite enough conflict. Is the
international response to Yemen | 0:21:44 | 0:21:50 | |
good? No, it is not. Would the
removal of UK armaments to that | 0:21:50 | 0:21:54 | |
debate make any difference? No, it
would not. It would make it worse. | 0:21:54 | 0:21:59 | |
It would make a difference?
Absolutely it would. The arms are | 0:21:59 | 0:22:04 | |
fuelling the conflict and causing
civilian deaths. It would absolutely | 0:22:04 | 0:22:13 | |
interrupted the conflict. Instead of
focusing energy on arming the | 0:22:13 | 0:22:18 | |
aggressor in that situation, we
would be able to redirect resources | 0:22:18 | 0:22:22 | |
into looking at the humanitarian
crisis. What about getting on the | 0:22:22 | 0:22:27 | |
phone to Putin? It is as those they
are the only two possibilities. It | 0:22:27 | 0:22:34 | |
is an over syndication of how
international politics works. It is | 0:22:34 | 0:22:38 | |
not as simple as one or the other,
as though that is the end of the | 0:22:38 | 0:22:42 | |
conversation. We need to be
accountable in this country for what | 0:22:42 | 0:22:46 | |
our government does, and the
decisions that the Government is | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
making here. The arms trade with
Saudi Arabia and other repressive | 0:22:49 | 0:22:53 | |
regimes around the world has two
end. OK. Yes. Hello. Good morning. | 0:22:53 | 0:22:59 | |
We should be accountable. Why can't
we make a stand and say we care more | 0:22:59 | 0:23:06 | |
about human rights than making
money? What about jobs? What about | 0:23:06 | 0:23:09 | |
all the jobs? I know the jobs White
human are sacrificed. If it is about | 0:23:09 | 0:23:18 | |
jobs versus human rights committee
is not a true choice. It is being | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
presented in that way in the context
of a debate. The UK at his two | 0:23:21 | 0:23:26 | |
international treaties and has a
strong record on transparency. The | 0:23:26 | 0:23:32 | |
current events in the Middle East
and Saudi Arabia require the most | 0:23:32 | 0:23:36 | |
careful investigation and suspension
in relation to that particular | 0:23:36 | 0:23:41 | |
aspect of the arms trade. We get
very close when we moved from the | 0:23:41 | 0:23:45 | |
arms trade to manufacture of weapons
more generally. People in this | 0:23:45 | 0:23:50 | |
country don't expect national
security be expected. To give is the | 0:23:50 | 0:23:53 | |
rule of law and the space to have
debates like this. Arms provide the | 0:23:53 | 0:24:01 | |
rule of law ultimately. They provide
circumstances in which we can have | 0:24:01 | 0:24:03 | |
these debates. If you don't mind...
I will come to you to come to that. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:11 | |
Let me just go to the audience. I am
not sure it should be a clear-cut | 0:24:11 | 0:24:16 | |
thing as to whether we should be
proud of our arms industry in | 0:24:16 | 0:24:20 | |
general. We can give our military
defence without having to sell 48 | 0:24:20 | 0:24:27 | |
Typhoon jets to Saudi Arabia. We are
still saving some jobs and we don't | 0:24:27 | 0:24:31 | |
need to fuel the anti-human rights
countries but we can still provide | 0:24:31 | 0:24:35 | |
our country defence. We have to be
realistic. Coming back to what this | 0:24:35 | 0:24:41 | |
gentleman said, about keeping the
avenues to bring things back into | 0:24:41 | 0:24:51 | |
the Suez Canal. I have been on two
cruises in Dubai, Muscat, by | 0:24:51 | 0:24:59 | |
Somalia, by Saudi Arabia, through
the Suez Canal. When you see on the | 0:24:59 | 0:25:03 | |
map, Saudi Arabia is a very big part
and to be able to protect us, we | 0:25:03 | 0:25:13 | |
have had frigates there. They have
to protect against Somalia. There is | 0:25:13 | 0:25:17 | |
a Japanese frigate there to keep the
Suez Canal open. You need arms to do | 0:25:17 | 0:25:22 | |
that? We have to trust the
politicians who know the full | 0:25:22 | 0:25:27 | |
details to be there. The human
rights abuses of people in Yemen is | 0:25:27 | 0:25:31 | |
not contingent on us having a safe
holiday in the Suez Canal. We have | 0:25:31 | 0:25:35 | |
to relate these questions much more
broadly and reducing it to economic | 0:25:35 | 0:25:41 | |
official way of justifying violence.
You remove the ethical question. I | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
am not saying that overnight all of
these populations would become | 0:25:44 | 0:25:48 | |
unemployed but I do think the
research in investment, millions | 0:25:48 | 0:25:53 | |
goes into research and development
in the military. Why is it we have | 0:25:53 | 0:25:57 | |
this model where all the money for
research and developers goes into | 0:25:57 | 0:26:02 | |
the military diagram for power? That
is a political choice. I'm afraid | 0:26:02 | 0:26:09 | |
that has to be counted. The conflict
in Yemen was not started by us | 0:26:09 | 0:26:14 | |
supplying arms to Saudi Arabia. It
was a civil war that had been going | 0:26:14 | 0:26:17 | |
on for four years. It was a request
to the Saudis by the legitimate | 0:26:17 | 0:26:21 | |
government of the yen -- the Yemen
for an intervention to try to bring | 0:26:21 | 0:26:27 | |
it to an end. The rebels were
starting to use Iranians missiles to | 0:26:27 | 0:26:32 | |
fire into Saudi Arabia. It was a
legitimate intervention. The | 0:26:32 | 0:26:36 | |
allegation it has led to war crimes
are serious allegations which were | 0:26:36 | 0:26:39 | |
put by people on your side of the
argument. Took the British | 0:26:39 | 0:26:44 | |
government to court and
Parliamentary committees agreed it | 0:26:44 | 0:26:46 | |
was appropriate for the courts to
make a decision as to whether or not | 0:26:46 | 0:26:50 | |
international he managed Terry and
laws have been broken. The courts | 0:26:50 | 0:26:54 | |
decided quite clearly that was not
the case. -- humanitarian laws. The | 0:26:54 | 0:27:02 | |
regime in Yemen has a right to be
able to defend itself. Do they not? | 0:27:02 | 0:27:10 | |
None of that has anything to do with
the UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia or | 0:27:10 | 0:27:15 | |
other places. There is a political
map we must pay attention to and | 0:27:15 | 0:27:20 | |
look at. Absolutely. That is the
argument we are making. When the | 0:27:20 | 0:27:25 | |
arms trade is at the centre of that
analysis, or at the centre of the | 0:27:25 | 0:27:30 | |
conversation, at the centre of
investment, we cannot have an open | 0:27:30 | 0:27:34 | |
and transparent conversation about
it because it is being dominated by | 0:27:34 | 0:27:37 | |
the sort of need for more arms
constantly. Our politicians are not | 0:27:37 | 0:27:42 | |
going to be making honest decisions
about this if they are being wined | 0:27:42 | 0:27:46 | |
and dined by the arms industry
constantly which is unfortunately | 0:27:46 | 0:27:49 | |
the case with many of the
politicians. To go to court is the | 0:27:49 | 0:27:55 | |
highest level of scrutiny you can
have. The court agreed it had | 0:27:55 | 0:28:00 | |
happened but also what has happened
is the Saudis definitely have an | 0:28:00 | 0:28:04 | |
operational problem in the use of
some of the munitions they have. No | 0:28:04 | 0:28:07 | |
doubt about that. The UK Government
has offered more training and advice | 0:28:07 | 0:28:12 | |
on it and it is giving that to them.
There was a point made earlier about | 0:28:12 | 0:28:16 | |
why research and develop and is so
important. The reason is that is how | 0:28:16 | 0:28:20 | |
we have been able to generate the
next level of weapons technology | 0:28:20 | 0:28:23 | |
which we are able to discriminate.
In writing capable hands there is | 0:28:23 | 0:28:28 | |
not collateral damage you would have
had in previous conflicts we're not | 0:28:28 | 0:28:32 | |
bearing that in mind. Just finally,
by having trade contacts with these | 0:28:32 | 0:28:38 | |
countries and seeing it and framing
it in the way of self power, this is | 0:28:38 | 0:28:46 | |
a big part of this and you will have
a say on this, can we exert an | 0:28:46 | 0:28:51 | |
influence and bring countries,
because the Prince is a progressive | 0:28:51 | 0:28:56 | |
prince, a reforming prince, can we
encourage that by having dialogues | 0:28:56 | 0:28:59 | |
that go in tandem with these sales?
Absolutely not. It is a myth | 0:28:59 | 0:29:04 | |
actually. You cannot have influence
and to stop violence for example | 0:29:04 | 0:29:12 | |
while giving alms to the perpetrator
of violence. Theresa May is raising | 0:29:12 | 0:29:18 | |
issues with him. Not while providing
him with weapons. Not just him, it | 0:29:18 | 0:29:23 | |
is actually a long problem with
Saudi Arabia and many other | 0:29:23 | 0:29:26 | |
repressive regimes around the world.
You don't stop violence by giving | 0:29:26 | 0:29:31 | |
weapons to the perpetrator of
violence. It has never happened and | 0:29:31 | 0:29:34 | |
it is not how it works. We have to
leave it there. I'm so sorry. If you | 0:29:34 | 0:29:41 | |
have any views on obesity, please be
free to come in on the next debate. | 0:29:41 | 0:29:46 | |
Thank you very much indeed. | 0:29:46 | 0:29:49 | |
You can join in all this
morning's debates by logging | 0:29:49 | 0:29:52 | |
on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions
and following the link | 0:29:52 | 0:29:53 | |
to the online discussion. | 0:29:53 | 0:29:54 | |
Or you can tweet using #bbctbq. | 0:29:54 | 0:30:02 | |
I always look at that after the
show. | 0:30:03 | 0:30:05 | |
Tell us what you think
about our next Big Question too. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
Is obesity a matter
of personal responsibility? | 0:30:08 | 0:30:10 | |
And if you'd like to apply
to be in the audience | 0:30:10 | 0:30:12 | |
at a future show, you can email
| 0:30:12 | 0:30:14 | |
We're in Brighton next week,
then Glasgow on March 25th. | 0:30:14 | 0:30:17 | |
After the Easter break,
we'll be in York on April 8th | 0:30:17 | 0:30:21 | |
to make two editions -
the usual live programme | 0:30:21 | 0:30:23 | |
in the morning, then we're recording
a one-hour special on the future | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
of the National Health
Service in the afternoon. | 0:30:26 | 0:30:34 | |
Britain needs to go on a diet,
according to the head | 0:30:36 | 0:30:39 | |
of Public Health England,
Duncan Selbie. | 0:30:39 | 0:30:41 | |
"Children and adults routinely
eat too many calories, | 0:30:41 | 0:30:44 | |
and it's why so many are overweight
or obese," he said this week. | 0:30:44 | 0:30:48 | |
He wants a 20% reduction
in the calories contained | 0:30:48 | 0:30:51 | |
in foods like pizzas,
ready meals, processed | 0:30:51 | 0:30:56 | |
meats, and takeaways
over the next six years. | 0:30:56 | 0:30:59 | |
If food manufacturers
don't heed his advice, | 0:30:59 | 0:31:02 | |
he'll ask the Government
to legislate, just as they have | 0:31:02 | 0:31:06 | |
done with the sugar tax
on sweetened soft drinks, | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
which comes into force next month. | 0:31:09 | 0:31:13 | |
No one is forced to consume sugary
drinks or eat fatty foods. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:16 | |
It's a matter of personal
taste and choice. | 0:31:16 | 0:31:18 | |
Is obesity a matter
of personal responsibility? | 0:31:18 | 0:31:21 | |
Ashley, good morning. We need to do
something, we need to ban junk food | 0:31:21 | 0:31:29 | |
advertising, this sugar tax, a fact
tax, teach people to limit calories | 0:31:29 | 0:31:35 | |
-- | 0:31:35 | 0:31:40 | |
-- fat tax. Something must be done.
I would disagree with that. A lot of | 0:31:41 | 0:31:49 | |
what is propose would make things
worse. There is a need to temper | 0:31:49 | 0:31:53 | |
some of the hyperbole with which the
issue is being communicated. It will | 0:31:53 | 0:31:59 | |
only make sense of speaking of it as
an academic if it is a | 0:31:59 | 0:32:07 | |
life-threatening disease, it is not.
Very very thin people and very, very | 0:32:07 | 0:32:13 | |
fat people. There is a slightly
decreased risk of mortality in the | 0:32:13 | 0:32:18 | |
so-called overweight category. There
is a lot of moralism and I think | 0:32:18 | 0:32:21 | |
this issue is a way of communicating
aesthetic and moral and behavioural | 0:32:21 | 0:32:27 | |
judgments, how people should think,
act and behave through a medicalised | 0:32:27 | 0:32:33 | |
vocabulary because policymakers have
lost the vocabulary to communicate | 0:32:33 | 0:32:35 | |
with the public in any other way.
Kathleen, you do not think there is | 0:32:35 | 0:32:39 | |
any need for sugary drinks? You
would ban them? I think they should | 0:32:39 | 0:32:44 | |
be banned. I do not think there is
any feasible reason to have a two | 0:32:44 | 0:32:51 | |
litre drink that can pack 1000
calories in a 500 millilitres | 0:32:51 | 0:32:57 | |
serving, it is ridiculous. You do
not have to drink it all at once. | 0:32:57 | 0:33:03 | |
No, but why would you choose to have
14 sugars in your cup of coffee? It | 0:33:03 | 0:33:09 | |
is the same thing. Why put it in a
drink when there is no need. How | 0:33:09 | 0:33:14 | |
would you stop people drinking it?
This is where we get to the morally | 0:33:14 | 0:33:21 | |
ambiguous area. We are there! People
have the choice of what they are | 0:33:21 | 0:33:29 | |
going to put in the body,
absolutely. However, we have to | 0:33:29 | 0:33:33 | |
admit and understands that we do
live in what is... It is a state run | 0:33:33 | 0:33:43 | |
education system, everything is led
by the Government and the way we | 0:33:43 | 0:33:47 | |
live our lives and that access to
education we receive and everything | 0:33:47 | 0:33:50 | |
else is given to us by our
government. When it comes to sugary | 0:33:50 | 0:33:55 | |
drinks especially, should parents
have the right to serve their | 0:33:55 | 0:34:00 | |
children that much sugar when we
know... Should they? When we know | 0:34:00 | 0:34:06 | |
the health ramifications of that...
Should they have that right? | 0:34:06 | 0:34:14 | |
Personally, I don't think so. I do
not think any parent in their right | 0:34:14 | 0:34:18 | |
mind should be feeding an infant
something... What about an ice | 0:34:18 | 0:34:28 | |
cream? Come on! Ice cream is a
treat. A drink is a treat. You do | 0:34:28 | 0:34:34 | |
not have a drink as a treat, you
have them daily. When we are talking | 0:34:34 | 0:34:39 | |
about the consumption of sugary
drinks, you generally find those | 0:34:39 | 0:34:43 | |
people who have the sugary drinks,
it builds an almost addiction so | 0:34:43 | 0:34:47 | |
they drink more and children, we are
seeing dental problems. This is what | 0:34:47 | 0:34:53 | |
I am talking about, how it has
become a way of talking about a lot | 0:34:53 | 0:34:59 | |
of preoccupations, a lot of
ambivalence about parenting in | 0:34:59 | 0:35:01 | |
society right now, there is a
distrust of pounds has been able to | 0:35:01 | 0:35:10 | |
exercise has an ability -- there is
a distrust of parents being able to | 0:35:10 | 0:35:15 | |
exercise responsibility for the next
generation, this idea of a hapless | 0:35:15 | 0:35:19 | |
parent pumping sugar into their
children. I absolutely agree with | 0:35:19 | 0:35:22 | |
you. We enlist children into this as
a way of saying, people can make the | 0:35:22 | 0:35:29 | |
choice to live their lives as they
choose, but think of the children. | 0:35:29 | 0:35:35 | |
If we remove the children from the
equation, we know cigarettes are | 0:35:35 | 0:35:40 | |
very harmful and alcohol, cigarettes
and alcohol are taxed extremely | 0:35:40 | 0:35:45 | |
highly... They are not banned. They
are put out of the financial reach | 0:35:45 | 0:35:50 | |
of a lot of people. You bring in
this question, is it only the poor | 0:35:50 | 0:35:56 | |
people who will suffer from the
sugar tax? Is it only the property | 0:35:56 | 0:36:04 | |
stricken -- poverty stricken
parent... The taxes will not do | 0:36:04 | 0:36:08 | |
anything, it is symbolic politics,
the sense we know the causes of the | 0:36:08 | 0:36:13 | |
obesity problem, we know what to
do... Why not just get rid of the | 0:36:13 | 0:36:18 | |
sugary drink substance that we know
causes harm? Getting a very hard | 0:36:18 | 0:36:24 | |
time, the food industry, in all
this, get rid of half of their | 0:36:24 | 0:36:27 | |
products, they are seen as some
people... Cocaine mentioned in the | 0:36:27 | 0:36:32 | |
last debate, some people look on
them as drug dealers. I think this | 0:36:32 | 0:36:36 | |
is because the Government does not
feel it can do much about physical | 0:36:36 | 0:36:42 | |
activity, it is a rise of sedentary
lifestyles and jobs in particular | 0:36:42 | 0:36:47 | |
that has gone along with the rise of
obesity but it can do something | 0:36:47 | 0:36:52 | |
about the food industry. We see
tobacco style regulations being put | 0:36:52 | 0:36:56 | |
forward, junk food brand on
television, health warnings... Are | 0:36:56 | 0:37:01 | |
they a good thing? Absolutely not.
Very damaging to those... Why? There | 0:37:01 | 0:37:08 | |
is no such thing as junk food. No
legal definition. We have food high | 0:37:08 | 0:37:14 | |
in fat, sugar and salt and it is a
huge range of products. We would not | 0:37:14 | 0:37:20 | |
see Nigella Lawson's Christmas
adverts until after the watershed if | 0:37:20 | 0:37:24 | |
this ban came in, sugary drinks,
chocolate bars, bacon, cheese, | 0:37:24 | 0:37:28 | |
orange juice... That would be bad
for business and consumers and the | 0:37:28 | 0:37:36 | |
media, not the BBC, but the
commercial stations, the so-called | 0:37:36 | 0:37:39 | |
junk food brand... It is a tale of
two industries, the arms industry | 0:37:39 | 0:37:47 | |
and the food industry, tremendously
important this country. It is, | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
similar in the sense because people
are blaming... One comes quickly, | 0:37:51 | 0:37:55 | |
the other comes slowly. What is
going on currently and what will | 0:37:55 | 0:37:59 | |
happen over the next three, four
years, with this crazy policy of | 0:37:59 | 0:38:04 | |
reducing calories in food by 20%, we
will see products getting much less | 0:38:04 | 0:38:08 | |
tasty, and we will see them get
smaller because a lot of them, you | 0:38:08 | 0:38:14 | |
cannot reformulate them to make them
healthier, you have to make them | 0:38:14 | 0:38:17 | |
smaller. People are blaming it on
Brexit, smaller chocolate bars, it | 0:38:17 | 0:38:22 | |
is Public Health England's targets,
it is a rip-off, very bad for | 0:38:22 | 0:38:27 | |
consumers, not doing anything for
obesity. Professor Nadim Haboubi, a | 0:38:27 | 0:38:33 | |
consultant, chairman of the Welsh
obesity society, a matter of choice? | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
It is not. Absolutely not. Obesity
the disease,, A complex disease. I | 0:38:36 | 0:38:45 | |
see thousands of patients over the
last many years, so many reasons why | 0:38:45 | 0:38:53 | |
they are wood-macro, genetics,
environmental, social, they are | 0:38:53 | 0:38:56 | |
desperate to lose weight, so many
factors that have made them obese -- | 0:38:56 | 0:39:04 | |
they are obese. It is about
activity, not just food, it is about | 0:39:04 | 0:39:08 | |
sedentary lives, these people need
help. Help from wire? Health | 0:39:08 | 0:39:12 | |
professionals, the media. -- help
from where? The Government. Who had | 0:39:12 | 0:39:20 | |
the power to coordinate all of this
in order to combat the silent | 0:39:20 | 0:39:23 | |
killer, the disease, obesity? Only
the government. I think the | 0:39:23 | 0:39:31 | |
government should... I am one of
those who advocate there should be | 0:39:31 | 0:39:35 | |
tax on junk food because junk food
now is very affordable, that is why | 0:39:35 | 0:39:43 | |
I practice in the hottest obesity
spot in the UK. What is junk food? | 0:39:43 | 0:39:52 | |
Anything high in calories, fat,
sugar and salt. A little does you | 0:39:52 | 0:39:57 | |
good, now and again, once a week?
Wait a minute. They can is one of | 0:39:57 | 0:40:02 | |
the great joys of life. It is a
killer. -- acre Babb is one of the | 0:40:02 | 0:40:07 | |
great joys of life. You have to run
three miles to burn it off. If that | 0:40:07 | 0:40:16 | |
is the deal, that is the deal! You
want to translate food into this | 0:40:16 | 0:40:23 | |
biochemical thing, but only so much
good in your mouth as the powers | 0:40:23 | 0:40:27 | |
deem acceptable, but that is not
what food is about, it is a social | 0:40:27 | 0:40:32 | |
thing, a cultural thing, continuity
between generations, enjoyment, all | 0:40:32 | 0:40:37 | |
of this hectoring people, it turns
off a huge portion of the population | 0:40:37 | 0:40:41 | |
from the political class because it
offers nothing to people accept... | 0:40:41 | 0:40:46 | |
The future will be terrible, we will
take away your small pleasures, that | 0:40:46 | 0:40:50 | |
sort of thing, people are, like, no,
thanks. The people having take away | 0:40:50 | 0:40:56 | |
several times a day, is that a
choice? Why are they doing that? | 0:40:56 | 0:41:01 | |
They need help. I would like to add
in the, Professor Haboubi, I think | 0:41:01 | 0:41:09 | |
obesity. Can I introduce you? Holly
MacGillivray, plus size model, | 0:41:09 | 0:41:17 | |
positive body campaigner. It is one
of the only accepted prejudices | 0:41:17 | 0:41:23 | |
still out there. I do not have a
moral obligation to be smaller, to | 0:41:23 | 0:41:27 | |
go on a diet, to fit into your idea
of what I should look like and | 0:41:27 | 0:41:32 | |
which...
APPLAUSE | 0:41:32 | 0:41:36 | |
And once again, we are making
stereotypes. Do you think I eat a | 0:41:36 | 0:41:41 | |
takeaway every day, Professor
Haboubi? Did I say that? You said, | 0:41:41 | 0:41:47 | |
these people, I am wood-macro, I am
not eating a takeaway every night -- | 0:41:47 | 0:41:53 | |
I am obese. I said it is complicated
by many factors, not caused only by | 0:41:53 | 0:42:01 | |
eating junk food, so many things.
Emotional things, psychological | 0:42:01 | 0:42:07 | |
things. I deal with the subject in
an individualised manner. What do | 0:42:07 | 0:42:12 | |
you think of the body positive idea?
The bigger you are, the more | 0:42:12 | 0:42:18 | |
unhealthy you are, whether you like
it or not. If you are well and | 0:42:18 | 0:42:21 | |
healthy at the age of 20, if you are
not diabetic now, you are | 0:42:21 | 0:42:27 | |
prediabetic, maybe... I agree, of
course, the bigger you are, the more | 0:42:27 | 0:42:31 | |
and healthy you are, I am not
ignorant of science, I totally | 0:42:31 | 0:42:34 | |
understand, if you eat too many
calories, your waistband will | 0:42:34 | 0:42:38 | |
expand. However, it is not that
simple. Cancer is more common in | 0:42:38 | 0:42:46 | |
those who are obese. This narrative
of we are eating too many calories, | 0:42:46 | 0:42:54 | |
it makes a nice, simple public
health message, but the science is | 0:42:54 | 0:42:59 | |
not that straightforward, it is
extraordinarily complicated. Say we | 0:42:59 | 0:43:02 | |
will reduce the calories in the
food, a huge amount of the science | 0:43:02 | 0:43:06 | |
is going the other direction, that
means we will probably put more | 0:43:06 | 0:43:10 | |
carbohydrate in the food and people
will get more hungry or reduce | 0:43:10 | 0:43:13 | |
portion sizes, Hector even more, bad
morality, making it difficult to | 0:43:13 | 0:43:22 | |
have good policy advice. How do you
manage the problem of obesity? | 0:43:22 | 0:43:30 | |
Ashley, answer his question. I do
not think there is a problem of | 0:43:30 | 0:43:33 | |
obesity. The number has not
increased since 2002. The diagnosis | 0:43:33 | 0:43:40 | |
of diabetes has doubled over the
last 20 years. There are children | 0:43:40 | 0:43:45 | |
under the age of ten... Children
under the age of ten, you walk along | 0:43:45 | 0:43:52 | |
the streets, any high street, you
can see three, four-year-olds who | 0:43:52 | 0:43:57 | |
are clinically obese, what would you
do about it? We are trying to say | 0:43:57 | 0:44:03 | |
there is a certain look which is fit
and healthy and actually other | 0:44:03 | 0:44:08 | |
people, would put them on trial for
the way they look, and that to me is | 0:44:08 | 0:44:12 | |
ethically compromised. Most of... A
lot of the most physically looking | 0:44:12 | 0:44:18 | |
healthy specimens which I know has
friends have had serious mental | 0:44:18 | 0:44:21 | |
health issues, the correlation
between health and the way your body | 0:44:21 | 0:44:26 | |
looks... It connects even to the
question, I do not want to defend | 0:44:26 | 0:44:31 | |
Donald Trump, but some of the body
shaping associated with Donald Trump | 0:44:31 | 0:44:36 | |
has been abhorrent -- body shaming.
People who look a certain weight, | 0:44:36 | 0:44:42 | |
calling them somehow disease. We
need to get out of the medicalise | 0:44:42 | 0:44:49 | |
language... Sarah? I completely
agree that it is not supposed to be | 0:44:49 | 0:44:54 | |
about how people look. It is
problematic to say we need to move | 0:44:54 | 0:44:58 | |
away from medicalise language
because the issue is not about how | 0:44:58 | 0:45:01 | |
people look, it is about health. We
know that being overweight or obese, | 0:45:01 | 0:45:06 | |
the longer it goes on, the more it
is associated with disease outcomes | 0:45:06 | 0:45:11 | |
like cancer, heart disease,
diabetes. While it is true to say | 0:45:11 | 0:45:15 | |
that in the recent past we have not
seen rates of overweight and obesity | 0:45:15 | 0:45:19 | |
going up, they do not seem to be
going down either, more than six in | 0:45:19 | 0:45:24 | |
ten UK adults are overweight or
obese, three in ten children are, we | 0:45:24 | 0:45:28 | |
do need to do something. What do we
need to do? | 0:45:28 | 0:45:35 | |
Some people say it is about eating
takeaways and about banning junk | 0:45:35 | 0:45:40 | |
food. Somewhat boring Lake Manyara
is in the middle for the people have | 0:45:40 | 0:45:46 | |
responsibility for what at the end
of the day they put on their trays. | 0:45:46 | 0:45:51 | |
You would banning advertising on
television? What Cancer Research UK | 0:45:51 | 0:45:59 | |
would like to see is an extension to
the current laws we have. This | 0:45:59 | 0:46:05 | |
marketing is bad for children and we
have banned it during kids TV. Kids | 0:46:05 | 0:46:08 | |
don't just watch that, they spend
times their family. It would make | 0:46:08 | 0:46:16 | |
sense to extend regulations that we
have put into place to do. They | 0:46:16 | 0:46:23 | |
sponsor some of the great sporting
events. There are huge problems. | 0:46:23 | 0:46:27 | |
Let's go through. Would you like to
say? | 0:46:27 | 0:46:34 | |
say? Going on from the human level,
when you look at it on the ground, | 0:46:34 | 0:46:39 | |
people are not that motivated today.
I was thinking of a solution to it. | 0:46:39 | 0:46:44 | |
If people could all come together
and encourage one another to lose | 0:46:44 | 0:46:49 | |
weight and so on, you don't know
what goes on in their day-to-day | 0:46:49 | 0:46:53 | |
lives. You might -- they might have
something happen to them which makes | 0:46:53 | 0:46:59 | |
them depressed. Once they lose well
and gain weight and so on, only | 0:46:59 | 0:47:05 | |
together with everyone involved that
we can in Courage one another and to | 0:47:05 | 0:47:10 | |
lift ourselves back up again. --
encourage. It starts with education. | 0:47:10 | 0:47:16 | |
There is not just one solution.
Education from children, up through | 0:47:16 | 0:47:20 | |
to adult food. Obesity is on the
rise and it is preventable, I think. | 0:47:20 | 0:47:26 | |
It does not matter what you look
like, it is about health and fitness | 0:47:26 | 0:47:31 | |
and we are living more extension we
lifestyles. There is a lot of fat | 0:47:31 | 0:47:39 | |
shaming out there but we are not
talking about that. You do see | 0:47:39 | 0:47:42 | |
people on the high street with
children and their parents and they | 0:47:42 | 0:47:46 | |
do follow the example of parents. I
am a parent now and I am a good | 0:47:46 | 0:47:51 | |
example, hopefully, to my child not
to be fatty food. It is not about | 0:47:51 | 0:47:57 | |
having takeaways seven days a week.
It is about moderation. If you | 0:47:57 | 0:48:01 | |
wanted about by the weekend then
have it as long as there is a | 0:48:01 | 0:48:06 | |
calorie deficit. On the flip side
have be careful of being too | 0:48:06 | 0:48:12 | |
educational to the fact they possess
over calories and numbers you have | 0:48:12 | 0:48:16 | |
to enjoy food for food because it is
about enjoyment as well. The | 0:48:16 | 0:48:24 | |
question is, is obesity a matter of
personal responsibility question in | 0:48:24 | 0:48:27 | |
its most basic form, it is. We live
in an obesogenic environment. What | 0:48:27 | 0:48:37 | |
does that mean? Without proper
choice? When you look at takeaways | 0:48:37 | 0:48:44 | |
and chicken shops, how often does a
supermarket have a buy one get one | 0:48:44 | 0:48:48 | |
free offer on apples, compared with
ready meals which are high in salts | 0:48:48 | 0:48:52 | |
and facts and that kind of thing? On
a personal level we do all have a | 0:48:52 | 0:48:58 | |
responsibility. I am an example of
that. I had gym membership I was | 0:48:58 | 0:49:02 | |
using. I went to the gym one day
nearly two years ago and stood on | 0:49:02 | 0:49:06 | |
the scales and saw that my weight in
stones and lbs, rather than in | 0:49:06 | 0:49:15 | |
kilograms which meant nothing to me
at the time, and I saw I was 17 | 0:49:15 | 0:49:19 | |
stone. I said to myself that is
going to stop. Never the other would | 0:49:19 | 0:49:23 | |
have voted because they have their
headphones on. I saw a programme | 0:49:23 | 0:49:28 | |
advertised on my local newspaper
website for the two days later I | 0:49:28 | 0:49:31 | |
joined that. A programme called fact
that book, I now coach in Somerset. | 0:49:31 | 0:49:39 | |
We promote an all-round approach. --
football. What was the Association | 0:49:39 | 0:49:48 | |
of willpower like? You're lucky if
you can afford to join a gym. So | 0:49:48 | 0:49:53 | |
many people cannot do that. Exactly.
Now I do not have gym membership | 0:49:53 | 0:49:58 | |
because I go out running and that is
free. From the willpower point of | 0:49:58 | 0:50:02 | |
view, it was, to me, it was taking
that responsibility. It was looking | 0:50:02 | 0:50:11 | |
at... I don't promote any particular
kind of diet or anything like that. | 0:50:11 | 0:50:16 | |
What I say to the guys in my league
and we have leaks all around the | 0:50:16 | 0:50:22 | |
country, they need to make
sustainable life changes. You tell | 0:50:22 | 0:50:26 | |
that to somebody who's pleasure in
life is a cigarette. You need to | 0:50:26 | 0:50:32 | |
make a sustainable life change that
is the difficult thing, isn't it? | 0:50:32 | 0:50:40 | |
One problem that play, it is like, I
went online the other day just | 0:50:40 | 0:50:48 | |
before I wrote a piece for the
Guardian and I do it a theoretical | 0:50:48 | 0:50:55 | |
shop for a family of four and I did
it over a period of 14 evenings. My | 0:50:55 | 0:51:01 | |
mission was to feed his family of
four for 14 evenings for the | 0:51:01 | 0:51:06 | |
cheapest I possibly could. After
going through all of the major | 0:51:06 | 0:51:11 | |
supermarkets, including a rather
well-known frozen food retailer, 75 | 0:51:11 | 0:51:15 | |
chicken nuggets in batter £3. One
chicken breast to pounds 25p. A | 0:51:15 | 0:51:22 | |
cabbage 60p. Eight kilo of frying
chips, 79p. When parents can all | 0:51:22 | 0:51:31 | |
went anyone, especially when you
take single middle-aged men are a | 0:51:31 | 0:51:36 | |
perfect demographic because you find
many of them are living in one room | 0:51:36 | 0:51:39 | |
in shared houses with no cooking
facilities. How can it be a personal | 0:51:39 | 0:51:48 | |
responsibility? What to do about the
79p bag of chips? I would make the | 0:51:48 | 0:51:53 | |
bad stuff more expensive and the
good stuff cheaper. How much would | 0:51:53 | 0:51:57 | |
it be in your world? Still 79p
because that is all I can afford. If | 0:51:57 | 0:52:04 | |
I can come back, and I will come
back to you in a minute because you | 0:52:04 | 0:52:09 | |
are Health Minister for a while. We
mentioned kebabs, on a Friday night, | 0:52:09 | 0:52:17 | |
after you have seen Scotland losing
the rugby and you're on your way | 0:52:17 | 0:52:20 | |
home, at the back. The nice thing
occasionally. Would you let yourself | 0:52:20 | 0:52:25 | |
have occasional treats like fish and
chips? Definitely. I was out for a | 0:52:25 | 0:52:30 | |
curry last night. What I have done
through sustainable life changes I | 0:52:30 | 0:52:34 | |
have made is I have been able to
reduce my calorie intake throughout | 0:52:34 | 0:52:38 | |
the week to earn the curry, as such.
Exactly. I am one of those who | 0:52:38 | 0:52:44 | |
advocates activity. If you | 0:52:44 | 0:52:52 | |
advocates activity. If you want
this, the activity symbol would say | 0:52:54 | 0:52:55 | |
you would need to burn off this
amount. You would be surprised. 350 | 0:52:55 | 0:53:05 | |
calories in a sandwich or whatever.
If you put next to it you need to | 0:53:05 | 0:53:09 | |
run a mile to burn it off, they
would probably go for something | 0:53:09 | 0:53:15 | |
without mayonnaise, for example. As
a doctor, what do you think would | 0:53:15 | 0:53:19 | |
happen people burnt off 2000
calories a day? You would burn off | 0:53:19 | 0:53:23 | |
hundreds of calories in your sleep.
Nobody burns 3000 calories in a day. | 0:53:23 | 0:53:31 | |
-- 2000. A normal sedentary
lifestyle you would burn 2000 | 0:53:31 | 0:53:34 | |
calories. The most important single
need now is actually sedentary life. | 0:53:34 | 0:53:45 | |
You don't have to go for a run. If
you tell people they need to burn up | 0:53:45 | 0:53:49 | |
every calorie they consumed by
running they would die of starvation | 0:53:49 | 0:53:53 | |
in a week. Also with the world of
work and time, there is a huge issue | 0:53:53 | 0:54:01 | |
about lifestyle and demands of work
in terms of ability to focus on | 0:54:01 | 0:54:05 | |
these choices. If we don't address
that we will continue to have this | 0:54:05 | 0:54:09 | |
problem. That is what people should
care about. It is an aesthetic | 0:54:09 | 0:54:14 | |
thing. We not shaming people, it is
about your health and medical eyes | 0:54:14 | 0:54:20 | |
wave making those judgments. I don't
like the you look for your fact | 0:54:20 | 0:54:24 | |
body. I am concerned about your
health. You do not care about that. | 0:54:24 | 0:54:29 | |
You have no idea what is going in
that person's body. You do not like | 0:54:29 | 0:54:36 | |
it because they are fat. Without
that shaming badly, I fully agree | 0:54:36 | 0:54:42 | |
with you. At that particular time I
was on water retention tablets are | 0:54:42 | 0:54:46 | |
my heart was really bad. I got out
of hospital for pneumonia is getting | 0:54:46 | 0:54:50 | |
infection after infection after
infection and I ballooned. When I | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
tried to speak, sensibly, about that
this is food poverty can this is | 0:54:53 | 0:55:02 | |
what is happening this is the
situation people are living in, | 0:55:02 | 0:55:05 | |
there are people living in single
rooms with one microwave, how are | 0:55:05 | 0:55:08 | |
they going to have billions of
vegetables? What I got was, you are | 0:55:08 | 0:55:14 | |
fat, you obviously don't go without
food. And this is the narrative that | 0:55:14 | 0:55:18 | |
people are throwing back. Philip
Dunne, does the Government need to | 0:55:18 | 0:55:25 | |
go further? This is what I was going
to touch on. There is a lot of talk | 0:55:25 | 0:55:30 | |
today in this very interesting
debate about education and | 0:55:30 | 0:55:33 | |
responsibility. I think education,
the Government does have a role | 0:55:33 | 0:55:37 | |
buying Courage in, as Duncan Selbie
in your introduction has done last | 0:55:37 | 0:55:42 | |
week, publication of calorific
content in stuff that people buy. -- | 0:55:42 | 0:55:48 | |
encouraging. It might not answer
everything but I think the activity | 0:55:48 | 0:55:52 | |
register is quite good idea to give
that information to people as well. | 0:55:52 | 0:55:56 | |
There is an educational aspect the
Government has a role to play in and | 0:55:56 | 0:56:06 | |
the other is in responsibility. We
have introduced corporate | 0:56:06 | 0:56:07 | |
responsibility to the food chain
through requesting reduction in salt | 0:56:07 | 0:56:10 | |
on a voluntary basis which has been
very successful in bringing down | 0:56:10 | 0:56:13 | |
salt content by 20%. We are doing
the same with sugar content by | 0:56:13 | 0:56:17 | |
requesting reduction was sugar
content and with introducing a levy | 0:56:17 | 0:56:22 | |
on soft drinks. Maybe more can be
done in that area. The point that | 0:56:22 | 0:56:25 | |
was made by the Lady of their about
the wedding advertising jarring | 0:56:25 | 0:56:31 | |
children's slots, some of these
price promotions encouraging people | 0:56:31 | 0:56:35 | |
to meet more than a treat and
routinely, there is potentially a | 0:56:35 | 0:56:39 | |
role for trying to do what we have
done with tobacco for you mentioned | 0:56:39 | 0:56:44 | |
the advertising contribution made by
food manufacturers. Formula 1 is to | 0:56:44 | 0:56:48 | |
be almost entirely financed by
tobacco advertisers. We banned it | 0:56:48 | 0:56:52 | |
and make no difference. Television
companies pay for most of Formula 1 | 0:56:52 | 0:56:56 | |
these days. Chris... The question
is, is obesity personal | 0:56:56 | 0:57:03 | |
responsibility? If it is, there is
no need for government action. We | 0:57:03 | 0:57:07 | |
have not got into that question. I
think it is of the US that obesity | 0:57:07 | 0:57:12 | |
is not a personal thing. -- it is
obvious that obesity is not a | 0:57:12 | 0:57:18 | |
personal thing goes that we have
someone who has lost weight and | 0:57:18 | 0:57:21 | |
someone who is overweight and happy
being so. There is no need for | 0:57:21 | 0:57:26 | |
government action. People are obese
for an obvious reason, they are not | 0:57:26 | 0:57:30 | |
doing enough exercise, and they are
eating too much food. It is | 0:57:30 | 0:57:38 | |
perfectly feasible to make a trade
off. I don't want to go to the gym | 0:57:38 | 0:57:42 | |
and I want to eat tasty food and I
don't appreciate the Government | 0:57:42 | 0:57:45 | |
taxing and reformulating soft
drinks. It will not be possible to | 0:57:45 | 0:57:56 | |
buy proper Ribena shortly. There are
already diet drinks for those who | 0:57:56 | 0:57:59 | |
want them. We have got to leave it
there but I think Ribena is a very | 0:57:59 | 0:58:04 | |
good idea for another debate on The
Big Questions. As always with those | 0:58:04 | 0:58:10 | |
debates will continue online and on
twitter. | 0:58:10 | 0:58:12 | |
Next week, we're in Brighton,
so do join us then. | 0:58:12 | 0:58:19 | |
Enjoy your little pleasure
throughout the day. Goodbye from | 0:58:19 | 0:58:24 | |
Newport and have a really wonderful
Mothering Sunday. | 0:58:24 | 0:58:26 |