Episode 6 The Big Questions

Today on The Big Questions:

Is Britain still racist?

And higher education.

Is it delivering for

students and society?

Good morning.

I'm Nicky Campbell.

Welcome to The Big Questions.

Today we're live from

St Edward's School in Oxford.

Welcome, everybody,

to The Big Questions.

Wednesday's announcement that

Cheddar Man, a Mesolithic

hunter-gatherer who lived

here 10,000 years ago,

was dark-skinned with blue eyes

turned upside down many people's

ideas about early Britons.

Pale skin and fair hair

didn't appear in Europe

until after the arrival

of farming, around 3000 years

later than Cheddar Man.

No-one knows how the dark-skinned

and fair-skinned Britons

viewed each other then

or even if they would have met.

But today we do know that the colour

of a person's skin does

affect their chances in life.

A recent survey by NatCen

for the Runnymede Trust found 26%

of the sample admitted

to being racially prejudiced.

18% thought that some races

or ethnic groups are born

with less intelligence and 44%

thought that some races

are naturally harder

working than others.

But while people of colour are more

likely to end up in prison,

white working-class boys

are still at the bottom

of the heap educationally.

And as Beyonce's dad remarked this

week, it's easier for those black

female artists with lighter

skin to become a success

than it is for their darker sisters.

Is Britain still racist?

Afua

Afua, you have written this

fascinating book Brit-ish, which has

caused a lot of stirrer and

interesting debate and conversation

but this is the question that you

have got to be asked. Middle-class

girl, private school, successful

journalist, how has racism effect

you?

I am glad you added the facts

in your intro because it has freed

me up from the need to insist that

racism does affect society. Whatever

statistics you take, a quarter of

people of another ethnic heritage

have been abused by a manager, half

of ethnic minority families are

living in poverty, the list is

endless. I have written this book

because I have had a very privileged

life. I am not a victim. I have had

so many opportunities and everywhere

I have gone in society, the media,

the bar, working in development, I

have seen structural unfairness

against people of colour. Everywhere

I have looked. And I feel it is the

responsibility for me to use my

platform to speak about these

things. If I don't... This is a

class based society. You need to

have privileged like me in most

cases to be able to access platforms

like this where we are sitting right

now. I am speaking about what I see

affecting all of us, whatever our

race, because we all live in a

structural racialised society.

What

about used African people, Asians

and the Chinese?

In my book I am

calling for a more detailed talk

about race. We are not all the same.

BAME is not one ethnic group.

South-east Asian people are

overrepresented at consultant level

in the NHS. It is important to

differentiate these experiences and

at the moment I am sorry to say that

we have a very simplistic approach.

We say that white working-class boys

are not doing well in schools in

coastal and rural areas. That means

we have overcome racism and the only

prejudice in society is class based.

Is anyone saying we have overcome

racism when we say that?

We have got

to have this conversation.

I thought

that was the nuance we were looking

for?

It is. I have not experienced

what the generation above me

experience, being chased down the

street by people with baseball bats

and being called offensive racial

slur words.

slur words. That has not been my

reality.

It has gone, hasn't it?

It

has not. Since Brexiter specially

there has been a spike in overt acts

of racism. But that has not been my

experience. My experience is a much

more insidious and harder to

articulate racism which is based on

400 years of history which does not

disappear overnight.

Thank you.

Professor Swaran Singh, so much to

go on here! So little time. 400

years of history. What do you think

about this? Some people see there is

identity politics here. You're

feeling of inferiority against

another person's and that is what

some people are saying about this.

What is your interpretation of that?

Simplistic?

It is. I was assaulted

by three white men. Since then I

have seen structural and individual

racism. And I have also seen the

enormous progress Britain has made.

I could either judge Britain by the

handful of bad experiences I have

had or the millions of ordinary

everyday interactions with ordinary,

everyday, white, British citizens.

The question is whether Britain is

racist. Compared to what? Compared

to a utopian mythical society where

nothing bad ever happens to anyone?

Britain is probably racist. Compared

to another society that has ever

existed, Britain is one of the

fairest in society. Racism certainly

exists and racist people certainly

exist but you can't judge this

society wholescale. And you cannot

use group differences and give a

simplistic answer. You can't say it

must be because of race. There are

multiple factors. And identity

politics, it is the student politics

of narcissism and being

self-centred.

The student politics

of narcissism? I saw you shuffling

in your chair!

It is ironic to say

it is narcissistic politics when

your whole answer was I have had

good experiences in Britain. Looking

at racism, you have got to look at

the collective. You can't find any

statistic that doesn't have a racial

bias in it, not one. We could go for

an hour. This does tell us when

we're having a debate about whether

Britain is racist. Of course it is.

You want to compare to other

countries and that is not the board.

The point is that racism is in the

DNA of this country let me finish.

Let me explain. Let me explain DNA.

That is quite afraid. I will come

back to you. We have time and I have

the inclination and you have got the

voice! Look at all the guests.

Racism, Tony Sewell, is in the DNA

of this country?

The Cheddar Man is

in the DNA of this country, which is

interesting. One of the points that

has been made, which we have got to

look at, is the notion of progress.

I grew up in the same era as Cyrille

Regis, the same generation, and we

experienced day and night racism

coming at us. I run a charity called

Generating Genius, which is day and

night producing probably at the

moment in terms of statistics,

talking about numbers here, probably

more black girls now going into

higher education than in the top

results. We will probably be

outstripping and beyond comparison

with other groups at the highest

level. What is happening here? I

think you are in danger with this

kind of discourse that says that

Britain is racist therefore we

can't, you will just make the lives

of those children just the sense

that we can't progress. It takes

away the real power ad agency.

Agency, the words coming out of my

mouth. In a couple of weeks we

celebrate the 70th anniversary of

the Windrush generation. That group

that came from the Caribbean and was

asked to come over here. Massive

resilience of those people that

withstood racism and came out. What

was characteristic of that

generation, and if they were here

now and speaking, they wouldn't

recognise this notion of Britain

being racist. They would see a

massive improvement. Unless you are

inside that, unless you are dealing

with that, you can't move on, and

you can't progress.

Do you agree

with people who say there is native

heard going on here?

Absolutely. --

varies victimhood.

varies victimhood. There is

victimhood. I fight with people day

and night to come out that

mentality. It is like what you are

thinking is holding you back. That

is the framework. I interrupted

Kehinde on the DNA point. I am sure

you would like to pick up and

respond.

This is why I say DNA.

Written's wealth was established on

slavery, genocide and colonialism.

You can have a whole session on

that. It is. It is not just that.

Why did we come in these numbers, to

build the nation. They brought us

into the country just to do their

work. This is a really important

point. It is not victimhood to

understand that you are racially

oppressed if you are black in

Britain today. That is not

victimhood. Let me explain.

We have

high achievers.

Male unemployment is

at crisis levels for black youths.

Crisis points. We are doing well in

our nice clothes.

our nice clothes.

Imperial College,

we are overrepresented.

And they

can't get jobs.

A lot of students

can't get jobs.

There are two really

important jobs. Black graduates are

significantly less likely to get

jobs. We are making an argument for

resistance. That is not victimhood.

I am not a victim and I am not

saying anybody is.

saying anybody is.

In Sunderland

now, I could be sitting here, in

Liverpool, I am picking up some

areas, and the same argument would

be running.

There will be people who

are poor if we were never here.

Tony, Kehinde

are poor if we were never here.

Tony, Kehinde, I will be with you. I

would be good in the classroom,

wouldn't I? This film that you made.

The Psychosis of Whiteness. Some

people might think that is a racist

title.

It is a provocative title!

If

somebody made a film Psychosis Of

Blackness.

They Did Actually Write A

Book About That.

I Stand Corrected.

We Have Just Presented All The

Evidence. There Is No Evidence That

There Is Not Racism In Britain And

Things Have Improved, There Isn't.

Instead Of Looking At It And

Understanding It, We Have An

Irrational Discussion About I Had

This Great Experience And We Have

These Graduates. The Point Of This

Argument Is That Whiteness Is Not

Just A Rational Thing That You Can

Debate. For 400 Years We Have Been

On The Right Side Of The Debate And

Nothing Has Changed. The 40 Minute

We Will Talk In Circles Because We

Cannot Admit To The Elephant In A

Room Which Is That This Country Is

Racist.

You Just Said There Was 40%

Unemployment But What Other 60%

Doing? They Are In Employment. How

Does That Work?

That Is Ridiculous!

Sorry I am making a point.

That

stops young man from getting jobs.

So why isn't it stopping that 60%?

You could give me an answer as to

why it is not affecting them

uniformly?

This is becoming about

ideology and not identity and there

is a difference.

Now come in on that

point?

In a second. If you don't

mind, we will come to you. You work

in Leicester. Do you see racism?

I

grew up in Leicester. It is

parallel, our lives, but different.

I would have grown up poor. But with

literally no racism growing up

whatsoever, in school, around me,

not at all. I grew up in mixed

areas. Having lived in London, one

of the things I really noticed was

that people, ethnic minorities that

I knew, had adopted a US centric

idea of race. That meant that they

tended to jump to racism as there go

to. Having grown up in Leicester and

environment I had, I saw it as being

a range of different things that

might occur. There might be reasons

for negative interaction. I wouldn't

always go for racism because they

could be a perfectly good other

reason for that which they didn't

have.

I am going to come back to the

audience and I know Afua wants to

come back in. I am doing the best

that I can and it is never going to

be good enough. You had your hand

up. Quick points from everyone.

The

student newspaper I edit, we ran a

front page a few weeks ago and we

worked out to an investigation that

only two black students in the

horror of Oxford got firsts in the

final results, compared to 850 white

students. Part of the problem used

to be that Oxford was not one to

address that. They were unwilling to

confront the colonial past that you

looked at. Example there was a guy

trying to sue Oxford for not getting

a first, and it turned out the

reason he got her 2:1 was because he

studied Indian history and 13 out of

15 people got a low mark on it

because Oxford is not willing to

provide provision, where is it will

for medieval European history.

That

is an assertion. Good morning. That

is the microphone.

I am relating to

the gentleman, I couldn't get his

name. He came to this country 30

years ago. He had a bad experience

on the third day. I have come to

this country eight years ago to do

my masters. Taking on board your

point as well, there were only two

white people in my class and the

other 23 people were from different

countries coming in. When we are

saying that there is not a balance,

it is not just race. There are so

many other factors and we need to be

mindful of that. Race, gender,

background you come from, your

family's values, everything. Plus in

eight years, I have not faced racism

one bit. I am not from a privileged

background at all. I have not faced

racism one bit. I have not come from

a privileged background. I had to

pay for my education, three times

more than the home students pay. I

am a paying member of the society

for the last seven years and I will

be employed by a respectable company

and I

and I have a white boyfriend. It is

that kind of thing! You need to look

at it from a wider mindset. I am not

saying racism is not there. Of

course it is there. But think about

it comparatively. Living in India

for 22 years, I have seen a lot

worse.

It is, it's a caste system, and it

is based on privileged and not

privileged families. You cannot say

it is not racist,.

Something

frustrating about this discussion is

that we are presenting anecdote as

evidence. I think it is a dangerous

thing to do. For instance, you said

the generation did not experience

racism, what about a novel the

Lonely Londoners, a whole experience

about racism. Think about the

writing of Claudia Jones.

She is a

journalist, it is an anecdote.

I am

saying there is a whole counter

history. Give me one second... If we

look at how economic inequalitys are

functioning in society it is

exacerbating racial inequalities. We

have seen an increase in statutory

homelessness across the board, a 9%

increase in statutory homelessness

for white people but 91% for Asian

people. We've seen growth in youth

unemployment which outstripped

unemployment for white people. When

it fell for white people it grew for

people of colour. When we talk about

race, I don't really care about

interactions, I really don't care

about talking about who has been

mean to me. What I care about isn't

what people say to me but what

people pay me. When we draw together

an analysis of race and class we

stop looking at competing interests

between white working class people

and working class people of colour.

We look at shed technologies of

resistance.

Let's get some numbers,

it was about 2% of the population

went. I went on holiday and I had a

great time. Now it is not the case.

Those days have gone.

Sadly, yes.

But let me tell you, the graduation

numbers and the higher education

minister would probably back me on

this, in terms of real numbers of

graduates coming out of

universities, the ethnic minority

level is higher than it has ever

been, real-time. What you've got to

look at, then let me tell you about

numbers in terms of educational

achievements. The groups that were

traditionally failing in the past,

the shift is moving in a completely

different direction. We have

stubborn groups...

I'm afraid that

isn't true. That is factually

untrue.

Let me finish, we have

groups around castes, I would say.

West African girls are outstripping

everybody, in real numbers. I work

for Haringey at the moment, we are

doing a project and the numbers for

those West African girls are

outstripping everybody. They are

real examples...

Why is that

happening?

Because we are now in a

situation where we are looking at

almost a group that has a migrant

mentality, similar to the wind rush

mentality that looks at education

and the achievement and parents,

driving that.

Aspiration?

Yes. And

this is quite important. The work

that I did was one of the reasons

why the group, particularly

Afro-Caribbean boys, why they failed

so much. We never looked at that, we

were looking at race. We never

looked at the subculture.

Specifically what was going wrong in

the family. Now we have a real

comparison, other West African

cousins are doing much better than

they are.

Just blame the family...!

This is part of the problem with a

right-wing ideology.

Was it a

right-wing ideology?

Yes, I'm sorry.

Let me look at the evidence. The

problem is the schools, not the

families. Even universities.

Celebrate this wonder. In the

schools, go to graduation and you

are less likely to get a first or a

2:1 if you are not white. Take your

qualification that you are so happy

about in the job market committee

still cannot get a job.

Can I ask

something? Is there a danger that we

are constantly focusing on race like

this and it alienates some people

and some people think, actually, the

British Empire and the appalling

genocide of the Atlantic slave

trade, it has nothing to do with me?

And they feel a finger is being

pointed at them because they are

white? There are other Empires as

well. This is what human beings do.

They subjugate.

Let me ask the

question.

Then you can have a go at

me, human beings subjugate each

other. If we look through history,

the Soviet empire, the Arab empire,

the Ottoman Empire, the Nigerian

Empire, precolonial, Zimbabwe Empire

with Colonial. It is the in group,

it is the outgroup. It isn't unique

to white people over the last 400

years.

This is the whole problem

with this discussion. Rome has gone.

Slavery and colonialism still

happens.

The after-shocks?

The

legacy, when slavery ends you have

Clooney is, neocolonialism and

racism. Black people in this country

are still disadvantaged -- you have

colonialism. You cannot just ignore

the problem and say, it was in the

past.

CLAPPING

The problem with using terms like

"Whiteness" and saying that we are

stuck in 400 years of history, it is

a counsel of despair. It says

nothing will ever change and nothing

can be done. It is juvenile.

Why?

Why is it juvenile?

It is arrested

at a point from which you cannot

shift. It is racist. What can white

people do about their whiteness?

I

have some suggestions about what

white people can do...

What can you

ask your white colleagues to do?

If

I blame them for whiteness, what do

I expect from them? What can Britain

do to get rid of its whiteness?

This

is sad, because I think actually we

all want the same things. I think we

all want a society in which we

function on a meritocracy where it

is not classed based in

discrimination, gender-based, I'm

confident we all want that. But the

issue of race is faced with a unique

hostility. If I said anti-Semitism

is on the rise in Britain, which it

is, I cannot imagine any of you

shouting me down saying it

encourages a victim mentality in

Jewish people.

We have that debate

two weeks ago.

I'm invested in this

country, I live here. But the issue

with race is that we are presenting

facts that show we have a problem.

If you take the blame, if you take

whiteness out the equation, I do

think whiteness is important, by the

way, we have problems. Why is it so

difficult to sit and have a

conversation about how we overcome

those problems? You can't do that if

you pretend they don't exist.

Of

course we want to overcome those

problems but you cannot do that with

a complex problem with simplistic

solutions.

I agree, but...

When

saying is Britain racist, we should

be saying it isn't racist, I'm from

an immigrant family myself, the

question is, are some people in

Britain racist, and what should we

do about it?

I want to pick up on

something that you said, we cannot

take whiteness out of the

equation...

What does that mean?

From personal experience I think a

lot of white people don't understand

whiteness. I grew up thinking

whiteness was normal and neutral.

Ethnic minority identities were

something else. They were other,

they were alien. Whiteness was

constructed, like blackness.

Whiteness was construct it for the

imperial project of making British

people believe it was justifiable to

conquer and roll other countries

because Brown is, blackness, it was

savage. This is fact. That's recent

history, my mother was born in the

Empire, she was born in a colony.

Many of us here have parents born in

a colony where it was over ideology.

We have all inherited it. I want us

to understand this -- over ideology.

For a start, the whole race

identity, particularly in the USA,

the ideological stance they had, and

in South Africa, that was a more

rigid idea of race compared to what

was floating around in the UK. It

was a post hock rationalisation. In

Britain itself, it was a lot looser

than in the US. That adoption of the

US centric model, I feel it on

myself, I know my family's concept

of racism is completely different.

And in terms of what they thought on

race in India would have been

different in their towns and

villages because their concept of

racism was not accepted. They were

humanists in the first place. It was

outright rejected. The idea that

somehow I have to accept this

concept of race now,... That is the

problem.

You are right to say there

isn't a single colonial relation,

there are multiple relations. You

look at Britain's Empire, it wasn't

just between white and black. You

had an Asian petty bourgeoisie in

the Caribbean.

I'm talking about

villages here.

Give me a second. So

you have multiple colonial relations

and it plays out in how race works

in this country. That's why you do

not have a strict binary of race the

same way we find in the US. That

doesn't mean we didn't have

institutionally racist policies

which endure to this day. Except it

is under the auspices of colour

blind ideology. Being the right to

rent policy, since it was brought

in, criminalising landlords who let

to undocumented migrants, 44% of

landlords have said this has made

them less likely to let properties

to those that they perceive to be

migrants. It's the colour of your

skin. So here we have a racist

policy.

It is not a racist policy,

that's the point. It has a racist

outcome but the policy itself was

not designed to be racist. It's an

unintended consequence of something.

It can be racist if it is not

intended to be racist...

Hang on a

second. Hang on a second.

You are

denying the facts in front of your

eyes!

Let me take a step back and

just... OK, in the audience? Anyone?

Here it comes... Good morning!

Good

morning. What I wanted to say is

that when I first heard the French

parliament had out ruled the word

because there was no such thing as

"Race", I felt a rush of relief

because I too was carrying that

around, that I belonged to a race

and it is scientifically not true. I

feel like if more people, if this

becomes common knowledge, we then

take away the Cushing from under the

races.

That is the message of the

Cheddar Man, in a sense?

We can do

that. It was a stroke of genius, I

feel, for the French parliament to

do that.

France has no idea about

the level of racism... Kehinde

do that.

France has no idea about

the level of racism... Kehinde, kind

of on that point.

On the palate of

pigmentation, where does it stop? It

is a social construct, isn't it,

can't you self identify? And why

white, my black?

It isn't about

identity, France is a perfect

example. It's probably one of the

most racist countries in Europe. To

say we don't see race, it makes no

difference, we talk about identity

and funny, whiteness isn't an

identity, it is a politics. You can

be Asian or black and have this

psychosis of whiteness. I will say

this, if we are presenting very

clear evidence that there is racism,

and your answer is, let me finish...

Let him finish, Tarjinder

and your answer is, let me finish...

Let him finish, Tarjinder, please.

Every statistic surrounding race is

terrible. There are two answers. One

is racism and the other is that

white people are superior and that

is why there is so much privilege.

Considering it is a racist argument,

you probably don't want to go there!

Kehinde

you probably don't want to go there!

Kehinde, can black people be racist?

Yes, we can reinforce these ideas

yes. It's about the system, not

about like or dislike.

Can black

people be racist towards white

people?

It isn't an individual

thing, that is the worst way to

think about racism. It is about the

structure and the ideology, the

system and those things. Not about

whether you don't might Asian

people, that is not the question.

On

one hand you talk about nuance, then

the blanket term of whiteness.

CLAPPING

And if I don't agree with you, I'm

white?

white?

Ash, start again.

Why is it

that white people hate hearing the

word they invented for themselves?

They invented for themselves?

It is

true. If you look at it, it was

invented in the slavery feels.

But

it is a monolith, everybody thinking

the same way.

Historically it is a

fact. It is a fact. If you look

at...

at... Recently, The Invention Of The

White Race.

It is an anecdote.

It is

a history book. You can't call it an

anecdote. All human knowledge is an

anecdote. This is the well

researched historical book which

looks at the codification of

whiteness in legal terms. This was

basically invented to justify

horrific practices on the

plantations. And to justify a system

of political economy. When we say

that something is a social construct

that doesn't just mean it is fake.

It has real outcomes but it means it

can be unpicked through social

processes and that is what we are

talking about. I think we need to

start talking about what those

social processes that can unpick the

structure of whiteness at what they

might look like.

What about the

working class people in this country

who have been oppressed for so many

years by the same people who had the

plantations? They are not in that

monolith of evil white people.

And I

am talking about class solidarity

which is important.

Scientific

racism is bad for everybody. It was

used to justify black and Asian

people's inferiority. And it was

used to persuade white working class

people to accept horrific conditions

on the basis of inherited

inferiority. This is history and I

am pleased to say there are many

academics in the mainstream who

recognise this. This discussion is

not reflective of the level of

progress we have made, thank God. If

we were still here debating whether

whiteness exists, we would be so far

behind there would be no hope.

We

need to find some road ahead. How do

we head towards a better society,

are less racist society?

You don't

want to go there.

You don't?

He

wanted to be bad. He needs it to be

bad and I will tell you why. Because

his politics around recognition, in

order to be recognised, in order to

justify the ideas that he has, he

needs the sense that he will always

be a victim. Apparently it is bad.

That is bad for black people and

working class white people and I

will tell you why. What it doesn't

understand is where there is

progress, where there is agency,

where there is the ability to

change, where there is the ability

to go into yourself and make a

difference, that has been the power

that took us off the plantations in

the first place.

You can have agency

and politics at the same time. They

coexist.

coexist.

A lot of young people will

believe that they can't progress

because there is an ideology out

there.

Can I come to you for the

question again?

Believe doesn't

change incarceration rates. We

cannot inspire our way out of

poverty.

Let me ask... Wait a

minute, everybody. You are doing it

again. Let me ask you the question.

Not responded to him but the

question that brings us to a

conclusion. What do white people

need to do?

I think those comments

are ironic given that there are some

people because they are black and

they say what white people want to

hear, they get a platform.

That is

not me. What do white people need to

do?

My politics is all about what do

we need to do and how we need to

organise and resist. There are

plenty of things that we can do.

As,

what do white people need to do?

I

think there are policies that are

winnable and we can work together

towards them. We get rid of the

hostile environment immigration

policy which turns

policy which turns doctors,

teachers, landlords, into border

guards. We can get rid of that.

A

lot of other minority people are

against immigration at the level

that we have.

The last of the boat

syndrome. If you assimilate into a

racist ideology, you think you can

benefit from it but that is a load

of rubbish. People of colour need to

express more solidarity with each

other. At the things we can do is

address incarceration rates by

looking at non-custodial solutions

to non-violent crime. And a third

thing we can do, look at ethnic

minority education grants which have

since been got rid of under the

Conservative government. That was

effective at reducing the attainment

gap. And we can look at those types

of grants to look at geographical

disparities, class disparities,

things that overall benefit

everybody.

There are things you

don't take into account. Ethnicity

is something you don't take into

account.

I am so sorry. We have got

to finish that debate because we

have got more to discuss but it

segues into education quite nicely.

Afua

segues into education quite nicely.

Afua, it is a wonderfully

provocative book very interesting,

Brit-ish, and I appreciate you

coming to talk about it. A lot of

people spoke. People might not agree

with it but it is worth breeding

because it gets you thinking and

there is nothing wrong with that. --

it is worth rereading it.

You can join in all this

morning's debates by logging

on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions

and following the link

to the online discussion.

Or you can tweet using

the hashtag bbctbq.

Tell us what you think

about our last big question too.

Is the higher education

system fit for purpose?

And if you'd like to apply to be

in the audience at a future show you

can email [email protected].

We're in Leicester next week,

then Bath on February 25th,

and Edinburgh the week after that.

That is my hometown. Oh, dear! I

tell you!

Now that students are getting

in debt to the tune of up to £50,000

for a university education,

they are being far more critical

of exactly what they have bought.

This week, one Oxford history

graduate lost his bid to sue

the university because

he didn't get a first.

We heard about that earlier from one

of our audience contributors.

He blamed negligently inadequate

teaching and said this has had

a marked deleterious effect

on his subsequent legal career.

And students are demanding

compensation if their lecturers take

industrial action later this month.

Cancelled lectures,

tutorials and seminars

might blight their future

chances, they're arguing.

A university education is now

something young people invest

in heavily expecting a good return.

But on Monday, Robert Halfon, chair

of the Education Select Committee,

said the returns were now paltry

and between a fifth and a third

of students ended up in jobs that

didn't require a degree

in the first place.

Yet swathes of British industry says

it can't find the people

with the skills it needs

for the future.

Is the higher education

system fit for purpose?

Robert, you are here. Excellent. I

was very lucky. I got a grant. I'd

went to university and those are

very different days. Why is it not

fit for purpose now?

Between one

third and a fifth of students are

not getting good graduates skilled

jobs at the moment. We face the rise

of the robots. 28% of jobs done by

young people will be lost to robots

by 2030. How universities are not

doing enough on skills. We need to

do a lot more on apprenticeships. We

do not have enough disadvantaged

people getting into the best

universities and getting good job

outcomes at the end.

Is it all about

job outcome?

It must be about the

skills because we have the march of

the robots coming. We have a huge

problem in our country. We should be

putting money into apprenticeships

and degree apprenticeships and

withholding money from universities

who don't offer those. It is a shame

that we are approximate and Oxford

will not offer degree

apprenticeships. Cambridge have

announced an apprenticeship

programme only last week. We need to

dramatically change how we think

about higher education.

Is it

entirely about preparing young

people for the world of work? Isn't

it about expanding young people's

mines and giving them an experience?

Of course but if you want an

experience, go to Alton Towers.

That

diminishes it!

What university must

be about his intellectual

development and preparing you for

the world of work and skills because

that is the world we are about to

enter.

We have had some lines on

this programme over the years.

I

would like to make it very clear

that I agree with Robert that this

country needs to invest much more

heavily in apprenticeships. But it

isn't necessarily universities who

should be providing them. I would

also like to pick up on a point

which seems to me to be a

contradiction in Robert's speech,

which I have had the pleasure to

read. He talks about automation

removing a lot of jobs. Precisely

the kind of skills we need for we

don't know what they will be, the

jobs in the future, problem-solving

of kinds we can't imagine, it is the

mental agility that what you call

scathingly a full academic degree,

it is a mental agility that a degree

gives you, the scrutiny of sources,

production of your perception of

your own capacities and knowledge to

zero and then building back up

through the challenging of your

assumptions. It doesn't matter that

much what the subject is. And being

a Renaissance studies scholar, I am

often told it is airy fairy nonsense

but it is not the subject. When

students come to my seminars, they

think they will not be interested in

16th century culture but they are

fascinated by the processes. What is

true and what isn't? It is skills,

those are skills. Tell me what the

employer skills are?

You get

intellectual involvement in every

single degree you do. But where we

have a big problem in our country is

we are way behind, and this has been

going on for years, we are behind

many other countries in skills.

What

are the skills?

are the skills?

Manufacturing,

engineering, health care,

technology. We are about to face a

huge amount of automation and we

need to transform education system

to reflect that. All degrees,

including yours, every degree gives

people intellectual development as

you have described. But we need to

change the system to make sure that

our younger people can get to the

education and opportunities and job

prospects that they need but also

that the country needs.

I would just

like to come back to Nicky's point

because you say it is about job

security. One of the reports

produced by Nick's organisation

recently talks about which students

go into higher education and what

for. We talk about an impoverished

view of it, the only value being

financial benefit, which is an

individual benefit. But higher

education has been shown in a report

a while back called Too Good To

Fail, it has shown that are highly

educated populace Scott Speed is not

just to the prophet of the country

but its social cohesion, the lack of

prejudice in a country as well. That

takes us back to the earlier point.

Your view of education is very

limited. It seems to only be about

jobs. But students themselves in

this report say that we go in for

fascination. For enjoyment. For

interest.

You are taking a £50,000

alone. What is the purpose if you

don't want a good job at the end?

That is why students go to

university.

Let me bring Matteo in.

He has come to talk about this and I

want to give him a chance to do so.

And of people want to contribute.

80% of kids in Singapore go to

university and it is working for

them.

It is a different set-up. It

is more about the universities

themselves and the way they market

themselves that what they deliver.

Not too long ago the university was

free and you went for that reason,

to expand your mind and understand

more about your subject, whatever it

may be. Fine, yes, but nowadays with

tuition fees, it has become more

about employment and that is what

universities sell themselves as.

Come to university, get a degree and

a job and move on, and that is not

the case. We have been lied to in

that respect. Universities have not

moved forward.

That isn't right. We

have been lied to and it came from

the Tony Blair days principally. I

believe that was partly due to

getting people often employment

list. Let's say he has pure views

and it was about getting people into

education...

What would you say to a

young, working-class man or woman.

I

haven't finished.

Answer this and

then finish your point. It comes

from what you have just said. What

would you say to a young working

class man or woman who might be the

first person of his or her family

ever to get to university? Might

they be wasting their time?

I hear

your point and I say that is

irrelevant. What is relevant is that

the person takes the right fit for

their future life. What is the point

of going to university and ending up

with a to: or 2:2 which might be

challenged by their employer? I've

interviewed thousands of graduates

and I look at their character and

personality and if they have got a

2:2 they have got to explain to me

why they spent five years going

through A-levels and a degree only

to get a 2:2. Where is the sense of

achievement? How do they demonstrate

to me with a 2:2 just from their

education that they are actually

worth coming into my business.

Higher education is like marriage,

it works out for most people most of

the time. There are a few people for

whom it does not work out. Going to

university earns you more money

makes you less likely to become

employed...

There are a lot of

people it doesn't work for.

John...

I want to hear from Nick.

There's a

long list of benefits. They are not

all financial. You earn more, you

are more likely to have a well-paid

job. You are more likely to have

better mental health if you have

been to university and engaged in

your local community. You are less

likely to go to prison and live

longer. Many people meet their life

partners. I met the mother of my

children at university and my wife.

That may not necessarily be because

they went to university, there may

be other factors. It may not be

cause and effect.

The academic

comparisons, they take people who

could go to university but have

chosen not to and they compare them

to people who have been. You did

well going to university, the member

parliament has, I have. University

works out for most people most of

the time. I agree with many of the

things that Robert Halfon and the

rest of his committee does, I agree

with a lot of what he says but he is

slightly forgetting a modern

university, we are in Oxford, it

doesn't just have Oxford University

but they have Oxford Brookes where

they train nurses and teachers,

then...

But why should they not

offer apprenticeships? You earn

while you learn and you have no

debt. You get the skills that John

is talking about.

Let's hear from

the gentleman in the T-shirt.

Good

morning. I am shocked by what you

said.

Robert Halfon?

Yes, it's

awful. Every single person deserves

to go and do a degree and it is up

to that person to have the drive to

go and get that job. Even if it

means going to other jobs that they

don't want to do until they get them

back. So long as they have focus and

drive they will get there. You

should be focusing on discouraging

people from going and getting

degrees and brainwashing them into

thinking that they should just go

and get any job. You should think

about getting agriculture bringing

the YTS scheme back, a modern

version where people go and finish

school and go into a vacation, for

example, maybe it is electricity or

plumbing, building, or even retail.

I work in retail myself. You should

be looking at doing that. Not

discouraging people from going to

university. And trying to blame

teachers and universities.

Let me

take it to the audience a bit.

Good

morning. Debbie Williams. I didn't

go to university and we did really

well. We currently employ 24 people,

six of whom are apprentices. There's

a massive skills gap in the current

market and I believe people can go

to university of that is what they

choose and I believe apprenticeships

play a big part in meeting our

economy forward.

Absolutely.

So far we have focused on the idea

of the student has a customer.

That's a really unhealthy model for

thinking about education. Since the

£9,000 fees came in, there's been a

0.5 increase in dropout rates. They

are having to work while they do a

degree. Their workloads increase and

they are beset with economic

anxiety. Let me raise a point about

what university is like as an

employer. For my sins I am also a

lecturer in politics at Anglia

Ruskin. I'm proud to work in this

job but because of the contract I am

on, it works out that I am earning

sometimes under the minimum wage of

I have a lot of marking. We talk

about the quality of teaching but

you cannot get back kind of quality

-- that kind of quality on the cheap

but the vice Chancellor 's play has

skyrocketed. These conditions don't

rust effect academic staff, they

affect cleaners, porters, security,

catering staff. Rather than looking

at an education that is something

extracted by students as customers

by unwilling and incompetent

academics, let's look at unequal pay

structures in universities, and how

it negatively affects anyone who is

not academic.

At the moment, I feel

like I am on my own in this world. I

should be the Minister for money or

whatever for the government.

I run a

charity. Chancellor of the

Exchequer? Minister for Money!

Hundreds of students are put into

universities from disadvantaged

backgrounds. We use the Chelsea

football club model. Where students

begin with us when they are aged 14.

We have a relationship with the

university that means they adopt

them, and we work through them and

then they are attached to the

university and they get through on

that basis. For me, I think the

problem is that we are confusing two

things. I think the

things. I think the issue with

skills surrounds science and that

area. Convincing our young people

that that is an area they should go

into. Universities have to change

that game, it has to be one where

they are engaging students at a

younger level. This private school,

where we are in the studio at the

moment, it looks like a Cambridge

college. Our state schools do not

reflect that. There is a

disadvantage in the routes that we

have, getting to those top

universities.

I agree, I came to

Oxford from a comprehensive, and as

an academic, I will take the floor

for a second, my family two

generations ago were miners, I am a

success in that sense but

universities do need to engage lower

down, but we are. I am the Access

Officer, I hate that word, it

suggests normal people from state

schools are abnormal in a way that I

have worked with ten-year-olds. We

inspire early on. Could I move onto

Robert's point and the lady in the

audience? We all agree that this

country desperately needs to invest

in apprenticeships, no question. But

on Robert's proposal of imposing in

his ideal up to 50% of degrees in

universities is being degree

apprenticeships, that's a bit

problematic. If you are a young

student who lends technical skills,

great. Follow that route.

Absolutely. But I am slightly

worried by the fact that Rob thinks

he is helping particularly

underprivileged kids by

apprenticeship skills. You are

shutting down the possibility for

that kid to be a judge or a lawyer.

Some points from the audience now?

Thank you., is higher education fit

for purpose? We need to rewind it

back and say, is education fit for

purpose? Take it back to secondary

schools. I firmly believe that your

passions and abilities are in your

early teenage years. They were for

me and they were not exploited. It

was a generation ago, as you can

probably tell, they may be better,

that's cool, now, but people can

concentrate on their abilities a lot

younger. You should be asking

questions at universities about your

abilities and interests. I'm a

self-made man. My education didn't

help me in that at all. I've done it

myself, basically.

You are a

self-made man costume at

University

is vital to society. I absolutely

agree, who couldn't? But there is

more to life than university. What

we need to do is identify young

people's skills as early as

possible, somebody mentioned the YTS

scheme, I had a lot of YTSs in my

business which allowed them to find

out what job they wanted to do. We

need to put a lot more effort into

identifying people's skills, playing

to those skills and encouraging them

down the right route. Whether that

is university, to develop into

professional careers like judges and

lawyers and so one, or whether it is

skills. Whether it's a plumber or an

engineer. Only give you an

example...

Am afraid we don't have

time. We are running out of time.

As

I said, all degrees ensure

intellectual development which is

important but with the march of the

robots and with the skills we need

for the future, we need to change

how we look at things. In terms of

apprenticeships, about 25% of

apprenticeships come from the

poorest of areas in the country.

They are incredible educational

lands of opportunity. For many

people. You do apprenticeships,

there are legal apprenticeships,

there are a prince ships for every

single thing. We need to change how

we think of our system and the

skills we have.

Wait a minute, we

need to change...

We are talking

about education and university as if

it is the be all and end all of

education. The idea that a degree is

the pinnacle of where you can get.

Not at all, I said there were many

different routes.

We are thinking

about other routes for kids.

Someone

in the audience mentioned secondary

schools. When you go to secondary

schools, the only option that you

were often given by the careers

adviser was University or working in

a menial job. You are never given a

myriad of options.

myriad of options.

And amused by

this conversation. John's company

needs accountants, those who made

the telephones, designers, many of

whom have been to university. Nobody

is saying 100% of people should go

to university, and saying 70% but

nobody is saying 100%. For a lot of

people it isn't the right thing. But

we do need the best apprenticeships.

They now end with a degree. The

final destination is the same place.

Not a degree in Renaissance

studies...

What an easy Dick there!

I argued very strongly for the

mental agility

-- that was an easy dig there. I

argued very strongly for the mental

agility.

I feel bad now, I actually

agree, I was just poking around!

agree, I was just poking around! I

did history. Useless! Have a cup of

coffee afterwards. Felt hurt.

It's

all right, I can cope with it!

all right, I can cope with it!

No

snowflakes. That is the problem,

isn't it?

I don't think we have the

time to get into that discussion!

John Cooney you

-- John Cone you said you would give

an example? I was lucky, I had an

apprenticeship and it was a

phenomenal experience, through to

working on the factory, the day

release to

an two nights a week I had to really

grasp.

I had a qualification in that

work time. I came out fully

qualified. What better way to train!

Thank you for joining us, Leicester

next week. Thank you so much. Have a

great Sunday! APPLAUSE