Episode 5 The Big Questions


Episode 5

Nicky Campbell presents debate from Oasis Academy Lord's Hill, Southampton. The panel discuss if women are holding themselves back and if evidence is a problem for religion.


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Transcript


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Today

on The Big Questions:

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Sexual equality.

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Do women hold themselves back?

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And the problems posed

by evidence for religions.

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Good morning.

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I'm Nicky Campbell.

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Welcome to The Big Questions.

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Today we're live from Oasis Academy

Lord's Hill in Southampton.

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Welcome, everybody,

to The Big Questions.

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It's not

just at the BBC that the relative

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status and pay of women has been

a hot topic in recent weeks.

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At Davos, that gathering

of the world's rich and powerful

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elite, only a fifth

of the attendees were female.

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Mentoring schemes and ways to stop

women being talked over at meetings

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or seeing their contributions

ignored or stolen by

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men were discussed.

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But there's nothing new there.

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And last Sunday,

at the Grammy Awards,

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only 17 out of 86 awards

went to women.

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The Grammys' male president caused

a furore when he said women had

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to step up if they wanted more

success in the music industry.

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Are women holding themselves back?

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Doctor Catherine Hakim, welcome. Key

issues in women's work. We are going

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to address the

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to address the whole #metoo

business, campaign that everybody is

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celebrating at the moment. It is

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celebrating at the moment. It is a

campaign, and you say that women can

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hold themselves back. What are the

key ways in which women are holding

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themselves back?

The key thing is

that women don't ask and that has

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been shown in study after study.

Women fail to ask for promotion,

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failed to put themselves forward for

promotion, fail to ask for pay

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rises, and don't negotiate in the

way that men do. Studies showing

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that men and women who graduate from

the same law school, they end up

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with very different salaries in

their very first job, and that is

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because young man right out of law

school did negotiate better salaries

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and the women just said thank you to

whatever was offered. That is what

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is happening throughout our careers.

Those women who are determined,

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careerist,

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careerist, committed to a lifetime

career, there is no problem for

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them. Look at Helen Morrissey, CEO

of Newton asset management for

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decades. One of the top earning

women in the country. But on the

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other hand, there is the case that

even today, women who are achieving

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in their particular occupation or

career are still judged more harshly

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than men and the absolutely classic

example of that is the Vice

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Chancellor of Bath university. She

doubled and tripled the size of the

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university in terms of student

numbers and income and turnover, and

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she was there for 15 years, and yet

she was criticised for having a

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remuneration package that recognised

her achievement is.

If she had been

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a man that would never have

happened.

That would never have

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happened to a man. When men achieve,

they are not criticised. When women

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achieve, they are subjected to a

degree of scrutiny and criticism and

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fault finding that is completely

unreasonable and unfair.

Who's fault

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is that, Professor Emma Rees?

I

think it is the fault of larger

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social structures. The workplace is

a microcosm of society more broadly.

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I do agree with one point that

Catherine made.

Just the one

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question

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question I -- just the one?

Just the

one. The individual can only exist

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within social structures. If we are

conditioning girls and boys from

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very young ages into certain modes

of behaviour as being appropriate,

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certain occupations as being

potentially ones that they can

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enter, then we are sending out a

very powerful message that becomes

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absorbed to the point where it

appears almost natural. But actually

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those gendered qualities, the kind

of language we use about men and

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women in the workplace, he is

assertive, she is bossy, for

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example.

He is ambitious and she is

ruthlessly ambitious?

Exactly that

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kind of thing. Those are not about

innate qualities. It is about how we

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regard from a very early age what we

think boys and girls are capable of.

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If you say to a young girl what do

you want to be when you grow up? She

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is unlikely to say astronaut,

firefighter, police officer, because

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she has been conditioned into

believing that some occupations

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simply will not be for her.

Who is

doing the conditioning? As the

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French recognising, the word

socialised is a result of mothers.

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Mothers are systematically treating

girl babies that boy babies

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differently. It has been shown in

research, even women who are trying

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really hard to treat them the same

and give them exactly the same

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upbringing, we have found that

mothers treat their boys

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differently.

Mothers are complicit

in this?

Mothers are the culprits.

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You are complicit in this debate

because of your language. You said

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that women fail in the workplace to

ask for promotion and they fail to

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ask for more money. Are you not

complicit in your very use of

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language itself? It sounds like

victim blaming to me.

That is the

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easy reaction to research evidence

that women do not put themselves

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forward for promotion. In the civil

service they actually had a scheme

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to encourage women to put themselves

forward for a promotion each time a

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competition was announced.

Why don't

they put themselves forward for

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promotion?

The main reason is that

actually we talk about women as if

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they are rolled the same and

homogenous. But actually there are

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three very different groups in the

workforce. There are careerist women

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who are really prioritising their

career over family and private life.

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They are about 20%. It is not at all

surprising that in the figures you

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were quoting just now, around 20% of

women are going to be in the top

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echelons of any occupational ladder

or career, music, politics, etc.

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Around 20% of women actually

prioritise family life. Yes, they

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have jobs between leaving school or

university, whatever, getting

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married and having children, and

they want those jobs to be good

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jobs, well-paid jobs, they are not

in any way lesser jobs. But then

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they probably drop out of the

workforce permanently after they

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have children. And then in between

you have got the people who try to

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have the best of both worlds. And it

is the people who want the best of

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both worlds who are very often

ambivalent, divided in their

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priorities. They want a career, they

want a good job, but they also want

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to prioritise the family and that is

where they are split.

The best of

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both worlds, what are you hearing?

I

am with Francesca absolutely about

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how we have got to be alert to the

nuances of language. To say that

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mothers are the culprits is

absolutely appalling.

Mothers bring

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up their children in a certain way

and mothers are victims, as you put

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it, or they behave the way that they

do because of the social construct

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in which they have grown up.

Absolutely. It is about the social

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construct and visualisation. It is a

terrible cliche but actually it is

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wonderful because I believe that! If

she can't see it, she can't be it.

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When she looks at the FTSE 100, she

will see only seven women CEOs

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currently. When she looks at

Parliament is worldwide, she will

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see only 19% of women involved in

those in a powerful way. We are not

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giving her the message from our

broader cultural and social place

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that actually more is able to be

achieved by her.

LO wants to come in

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here. Professor, I will come back in

a moment.

To answer the question,

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the majority of women don't hold

themselves back. The majority are

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self assured and confident and know

what they want from life. To say

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anything differently would be

insulting. I think what is holding

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women back is not social structures

and sexism, it is not the

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patriarchy, I actually think it is

the discussion about women's

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equality. Unfortunately I think it

is a contemporary feminist movement

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holding women back, in many ways.

This conversation sheds light on

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what it is doing. It says women are

oppressed by language. It says when

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they go into the boardroom, they

need schooling on how to speak up in

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meetings, as you said in the opening

thing, they are weak flowers who

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need a leg up, helping hand. Putting

out that message is far more

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damaging than worrying about how

many women are in the FTSE 100. Most

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of them don't care about the FTSE

100 because we are never going to

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get to that position in life. The

great that you need to see it to be

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it is really telling. It is this

focus on symbolism. A world that is

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really different from the majority

of women's lives. Contemporary

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feminists are very obsessed with the

pay gap, the myth of the pay gap,

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women's language, sexist language,

all this stuff that bypasses most

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women. Genuinely, unfortunately, it

is contemporary feminism and the

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discussion around it that is mostly

holding them back today.

It has not

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bypassed most women. It has a

material effect on their day-to-day

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function in broader culture. Of

course it does. Those economic

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decisions are coming from

predominantly men.

This is the

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interesting thing. I am sure we will

get onto a discussion about the K

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gap in relation to what has been

happening at the BBC and in

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Hollywood. -- is the pay gap. The

panic over extremely rich women

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earning varying degrees of hundreds

of thousands of pounds does bypass

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most women because we are not having

a genuine conversation about the

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lives of women and men,

working-class women and men.

Is it

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the fault feminism?

I am not saying

it is a fault of feminism. I am not

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saying that women are conspiring to

women over and that would be

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ridiculous. The narrative, that

women are weak, that they are

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oppressed by social structures, that

they are at a disadvantage to men,

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and there are very few social

structures that oppress women any

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more. The abortion law is the only

place where women are legally

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discriminated against.

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discriminated against.

So women are

fine essentially?

It is illegal to

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discriminate against women on the

basis of sex. Women are more free

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than they ever have been. That is a

fantastic fact. 100 years since some

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women got the vote and we are in a

fantastic place and yet we are still

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pretending that this is a terrible

world for us and I find that

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depressing.

So many points to pick

up on. The rest of the front row is

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wobbling! Professor, I will come to

you in a moment to talk about your

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research but can I come to you?

Would you mind? You were nodding all

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the way through what she was saying.

In the bowtie, just come forward.

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She was saying part of the problem

is feminism. Why were you agreeing

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so much?

Absolutely, I pretty much

agree with everything she just said.

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I am a feminist myself and I do

think men and women should be equal.

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I believe we have absolutely

achieved that. We have got to

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remember that our Prime Minister is

a woman and we have lots of women in

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the Cabinet and we have more women

in positions of power.

So we are

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there, we have arrived?

We have. And

now it is just down to individuals

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to work hard and achieve.

Your hand

went up.

It is OK to talk about the

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FTSE 100 and it is OK to talk about

women in positions of power in

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politics, but if you look at more

real-life examples, the teaching

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profession is dominated by women and

general classroom teachers, but if

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you go up to headteachers, a much

higher proportion are actually mail.

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It is OK to look wider, but you can

see is that we do not have equality.

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I will come to you, and you as well

because we will talk about the

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#metoo thing as well. Professor, you

have done this research. Binna

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Kandola, have women been conditioned

to be biased against their own sex?

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Your question originally was why

don't women put themselves forward.

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The response that came back was that

women fail to put themselves

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forward, so it was a women's fault.

Where women do put themselves

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forward, they are criticised for it,

so they are conditioned that if they

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put their head up, they will be

criticised for doing it and they

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will learn not to put themselves in

that position. In addition to that,

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the work we have done on the

leadership prototype, whether we

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realise it or not, when we think

about leaders, we think about a man.

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Is there an unconscious bias in

women towards male leaders.

Yes, men

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and women. When you think a better

leader, you think about a man.

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Characteristics we associate with a

leader, dominance, assertion, they

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are characteristics associated with

the stereotype of a man. The

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stereotypes of women, compassion,

care, empathy, men can be

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compassionate, caring and

empathetic, but those

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characteristics are least linked to

the leadership prototype. There will

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be a pro-male bias in men and women

when we think about leaders. It is a

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generational thing. It just kind

of... That stereotype has been

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around for a long time.

How do you

break it?

It takes a long time. You

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can break it. Discussions like this

help.

Delighted to be of assistance!

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There are things we can do when

making promotion decisions, we need

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to think

health fair we are being in

the decisions were making. Give us

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an extremely simple things we could

do, if we could be bothered, and we

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are not bothered enough.

Something

that was done in the civil service

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and was very effective was they had

a new rule that every single

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selection panel, whether for a new

job or promotion, had to have at

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least woman on it. Better to have

more than one because, of course,

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these panels have five, six or seven

people. As soon as they had one

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woman on every panel you were not

allowed to have a panel with no

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woman. You couldn't say they were

not available or she was on holiday

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or

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or whatever, you had to have a

woman. Immediately the promotion

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rate for women change.

That is

fascinating. John Evans, should we

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be pushing through quotas,

affirmative action? In the

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workplace, on the boards,

parliaments, wherever? 50/50?

The

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short answer is yes. You had to

understand the context, we all do.

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There has been 1000 years or more of

male dominance in this country.

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Unravelling all of that so women get

a fair deal is enormously difficult.

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A lot more than 1000 years.

Francesca is a biblical scholar, she

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will tell you! A long time.

They

have built up all sorts of things,

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strange things have been mentioned.

When you go for appointments, men

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characteristically talk about what

they are going to do, in normal

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parlance this is called boasting.

This is what I'm going to do. Women

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talk about what they have done. And

we have talked ourselves -- taught

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ourselves that what is important is

not achievement but what some people

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might call EXPLETIVE or boasting for

the future, that is very much a male

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characteristic. We sustained male

dominance by giving these strange

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things. You have to breakthrough.

That is the unconscious bias.

You

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have to breakthrough by giving

things like Luiters. There has been

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positive discrimination for men for

1000 years and more, let's have a

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bit of positive discrimination for

women as a corrective action to give

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a bit of fairness.

Honestly, if I

thought I had been asked here to

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talk today because I was a woman, I

would have walked out. I think it is

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deeply insulting to suggest that

gender should come into the question

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of a woman's position in her

appointment. Lego 's and quotas are

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basically saying that women need an

extra helping hand to get to the

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position that men are in. Mutch

leg-ups and quotas. With greatest

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respect to the professors, this

quack psychoanalysis about men and

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women as if men and women act in

certain ways, it is straying into

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biological determinism. Women do not

show signs of empathy, they are not

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scared of being bossy. I know some

of the other panellists were saying

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this, we are doing women a

disservice. I genuinely think we do

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women a disservice. Policy of

discrimination, women do not want

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that -- positive discrimination,

women do not want that.

But men are

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in control. Mill values decide who

will be appointed. Male values

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decide who will be a leader and a

follower. You had to do something to

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correct that. It is built in from

young. Even kids of six and seven,

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the girls are taught to say, even as

young as that, that the boys are

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more important. Try and buy a

birthday card for a young girl and

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you will find every one of them has

a particular view of young children.

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Don't laugh, don't try.

People

always go to the pink/ blue debate,

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it bores most of us, with the

greatest respect.

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APPLAUSE

It is not pink or blue, it is

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activity or passivity, it is who

should lead and who should follow.

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We have to break that particular

mould.

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You are of different generations,

maybe you have a different

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experience, a different life

experience. Ella, you are under 30.

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A brief response?

We are celebrating

100 years since some women got of

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the vote, we have come a long way.

The whole narrative of women being

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held back by language or the pink or

blue debate denies the fact that

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women have come a very long way

through struggle and battle and

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political debate and winning, and

being powerful. The idea that

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language will hold us back now is, I

think, frankly, historically

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illiterate.

We have a lot further to go and I

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think...

John, can you allow Clare

to talk? Honestly, typical male

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behaviour!

Male behaviour in a

feminist cause.

Don't you be

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assertive with me!

I think we have come an awful long

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year in the 100 -- an awful long way

in the 100 years since some women

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got the vote, but that does not mean

that women's outcomes are

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necessarily any better. Women are

more likely to live in poverty than

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men, we have heard stories about

harassment in the workplace, that is

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not equality. I think it is really

important that we think about how to

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change things, I am with John in

thinking about how we make a big

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change.

Grab a and push it forward,

quotas?

Grab it and push it forward.

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Quotas are a useful tool to push for

progress. They have been used in

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businesses, parliament. Even when

appointing Cabinet, choosing

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ministers. David Cameron, before the

2010 election, he said if I am

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elected a third of my Government

will be women. That is an informal

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quota. It is getting at an

expectation that we need to look a

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bit more representative.

That some

people watching will say it should

0:21:220:21:28

be about the best person, you have

heard this argument before, the best

0:21:280:21:33

person for the job. That is in the

interest of the company.

I think it

0:21:330:21:38

is a strategy to maintain the status

quo. 150 years ago when women were

0:21:380:21:43

campaigning for the votes, the

arguments would be they have the

0:21:430:21:46

wrong disposition or we should

keep... They are too emotional for

0:21:460:21:50

politics. You need the best person

for the job, that is a strategy to

0:21:500:21:57

keep things as they are. When you

look at Cabinet, when we did our

0:21:570:22:01

research on how do you become a

minister, you say how do you

0:22:010:22:06

become... What is the best way to

become a Cabinet minister? People

0:22:060:22:10

say you had to be a trusted and

loyal ally to the Prime Minister.

0:22:100:22:14

That is how a lot of ministers get

their job. That is not the best

0:22:140:22:18

person for the job. We need to get

rid of bad language.

The most

0:22:180:22:23

compliant person. Theresa May get

criticisms for being emotional is,

0:22:230:22:35

robotic, the Maybot. If she were a

man, would that be levelled at her

0:22:350:22:39

in the same way?

I think there is a

double standard when it comes to

0:22:390:22:44

women and women leaders. Theresa May

for example can be criticised

0:22:440:22:47

because she does not have children,

because she does not know about what

0:22:470:22:52

it is like to be a mother, she can

be criticised for everything.

By

0:22:520:22:58

other women, Andrea Leadsom, for

example.

There is a certain state

0:22:580:23:02

that if you are a woman in the

public eye you will be criticised,

0:23:020:23:07

it goes back to antiquity.

Catherine, respond to the quotas?

I

0:23:070:23:12

do not think they were, they

automatically lead people to think

0:23:120:23:16

she is only there because of the

quota. They have backfired in India.

0:23:160:23:23

The Untouchables, the policy was to

try to raise the Untouchables by

0:23:230:23:27

having a quota system, it backfired

in India, it does not work. We know

0:23:270:23:31

it does not work. It is not a good

idea. Helena Morrissey, one of the

0:23:310:23:36

top finance officers in the country,

she was against quotas and she

0:23:360:23:40

insisted that the way forward was a

voluntary way with the 30% club

0:23:400:23:46

which they initiated and has

achieved astonishing results. The

0:23:460:23:50

voluntary by far the best. Quotas as

far too rigid and blunt and not

0:23:500:23:57

politically acceptable to most

people.

The difficulty with targets

0:23:570:24:02

and quotas, if you establish targets

and quotas on gender, why not race?

0:24:020:24:09

Then how would you manage that?

Then

you get yourself into the

0:24:090:24:18

middle-class BM e-mail against the

white working... Then we start

0:24:180:24:21

shipping ourselves up.

On one topic

it sounds sensible, but if that

0:24:210:24:27

favours whites, then you have an

issue with race.

I am desperate to

0:24:270:24:33

correct a couple of things.

You

should come here more often.

Women

0:24:330:24:37

do not need a leg up, men have had a

leg up by having the shoulders

0:24:370:24:43

tapped. It happens in the clubs, it

happens all the Gulf, we are not

0:24:430:24:47

there. Men have had a leg up for a

very long time and we do not need

0:24:470:24:52

special treatment, we need equality.

And since when are we talking about

0:24:520:24:56

women being the only parents and

families? We are quite regressive in

0:24:560:25:00

a number of statements we have made.

That is changing, we are talking

0:25:000:25:05

historically but things are

changing.

Dads have careers.

The

0:25:050:25:09

inference is that result and Lee

things are changing. Audience? Good

0:25:090:25:14

morning.

0:25:140:25:19

morning.

Ella made the point that

language is not so significant any

0:25:210:25:24

more, but we have had a lot in the

news about Cyrille Regis and his

0:25:240:25:28

significance and impact on football

related to race. There is also to

0:25:280:25:36

language that you can't use that was

used in the 70s and 80s when he was

0:25:360:25:40

playing, and there are similar terms

used to keep women down, the whole

0:25:400:25:51

bossy/ strident, that kind of

language used about women.

What if a

0:25:510:25:56

woman is strident?

Then she is

criticised much more than an

0:25:560:26:00

assertive... Or it is taken as

natural for a man to act in that

0:26:000:26:05

way, but when women do it they are

criticised.

0:26:050:26:10

This whole idea about things that

are counter-productive, Catherine,

0:26:100:26:13

you believe

0:26:130:26:18

you believe that the #metoo movement

has been and is counter-productive.

0:26:200:26:25

What you mean?

The workplace is a

social environment as well somewhere

0:26:250:26:28

to get work done, there are always

social events or social time over

0:26:280:26:32

the coffee machine or whatever where

people are interacting in a

0:26:320:26:37

completely separate, private way.

Flirting and sexual interaction will

0:26:370:26:42

be an inevitable part of almost all

workplaces.

Which we discussed a

0:26:420:26:47

couple of weeks ago, but

specifically this growing #metoo

0:26:470:26:51

campaign, are things being

conflated?

What is happening is that

0:26:510:26:56

anything remotely sexual is treated

as completely out of bounds.

People

0:26:560:27:01

are talking about rate.

Rate is

occasionally part of it, but the

0:27:010:27:06

vast majority of the complaints are

things that are really quite minor

0:27:060:27:10

and trivial like a hand on a knee or

a date that did not go as well as

0:27:100:27:14

somebody wanted to.

-- people are

talking about rate.

Rate is

0:27:140:27:19

occasionally part of it.

0:27:190:27:25

occasionally part of it.

By

conflating rape with bad dates and

0:27:260:27:29

incompetent seductions, it is a

mess. What do you mean by things

0:27:290:27:32

that did not go as well as you would

have hoped?

0:27:320:27:40

have hoped?

There is an example of

the bad date, Aziz Ansari. She went

0:27:410:27:51

out of her way to leave her

boyfriend, seduces Manning get a

0:27:510:27:55

date with him and it did not go the

way she had expected to go in her

0:27:550:28:01

imagination. They didn't in fact

have six, but she decided because

0:28:010:28:05

they had been kissing anyway she did

not particularly like that it was

0:28:050:28:10

sexual assault. -- they didn't in

fact have sex. She only decided it

0:28:100:28:14

was sexual assault after a

discussion with her girlfriends

0:28:140:28:18

after the date and she posted this

on social media. This is the kind of

0:28:180:28:22

thing that is bringing the whole

movement, which originally had a

0:28:220:28:26

very good point, like Harvey

Weinstein, into disrepute. It is

0:28:260:28:31

just women grumbling about bad

dates. It is weakening the message,

0:28:310:28:38

ignoring the C of E -- the serious

problem to focus on trivia.

One of

0:28:380:28:45

the examples you gave, one of the

things she found objectionable from

0:28:450:28:48

what a report said was that he kept

sticking his fingers down her

0:28:480:28:51

throat. Whether you want to call a

sexual harassment, it is still a

0:28:510:28:58

very aggressive and invasive action

to take. Whilst I can understand

0:28:580:29:02

some of the points you are making, I

do not necessarily... I think it is

0:29:020:29:07

well worth some women who may feel

they have been sexually harassed or

0:29:070:29:11

sexually abused, it does not matter,

if it gets more people talking who

0:29:110:29:23

have been sexually abused or

harassed, it is worth it.

What about

0:29:230:29:32

telling people what I am going to

do, not what I have done...

Somebody

0:29:320:29:42

having their hands but many, she

said was a little thing, I find that

0:29:420:29:45

offensive, when you have it done ten

times at work, then you go to a new

0:29:450:29:51

job and your bottom is patted, these

little things add up.

Do you

0:29:510:29:54

understand the art and about #metoo

is counter-productive?

Not

0:29:540:29:58

massively.

-- do you understand the

argument?

Yes, I think #metoo has

0:29:580:30:04

not done much good for women. I

question the idea it is a movement.

0:30:040:30:08

If we took a poll on the streets of

Southampton, there are very few

0:30:080:30:12

women who would tell you they are

part of the #metoo movement. It

0:30:120:30:16

exists online, it is a hashtag, it

is not a feminist upsurge, people

0:30:160:30:20

are not signing up to parties.

How

does it portray women? About the

0:30:200:30:26

question is whether women hold

themselves back, I think the message

0:30:260:30:29

buying #metoo is

telling women to

hold themselves back, via sexual

0:30:290:30:35

interaction, CMN, telling them and

they had to define every negative...

0:30:350:30:39

The Aziz Ansari example is great, it

is a bad sexual experience, all of

0:30:390:30:44

us are probably had one at one

point, it has been told is a

0:30:440:30:48

traumatic event. We are encouraging

women to see the very minor

0:30:480:30:52

awkwardness in times of sexual

interaction as traumatic. That is

0:30:520:30:56

doing a disservice to the

seriousness of rape, sexual assault

0:30:560:31:00

and also women's power and strength.

There is nothing good about #metoo,

0:31:000:31:04

I think, and I think most women

would agree.

0:31:040:31:10

It is a good thing that so many

women are saying that happen to me

0:31:100:31:14

as well. That is a very powerful

thing. Many men and women are now

0:31:140:31:18

saying that the way I have been

treated in the past is not

0:31:180:31:21

acceptable. That means that we need

to change the culture in our society

0:31:210:31:25

in a really big way. One woman we

interviewed for the book we have

0:31:250:31:32

just done said it is like water

torture. It is dripped after drip

0:31:320:31:37

after drip of little sexual remarks,

little jokes, little nasty remarks,

0:31:370:31:44

insults, jokes that only men laugh

at. It is hateful.

Nobody here, I

0:31:440:31:51

don't think any sensible person

would defend bad behaviour, would

0:31:510:31:55

defend the idea that women have got

to put up with jokes and comments,

0:31:550:31:58

anything like that. We're not saying

it is part of life and get on with

0:31:580:32:02

it. But comparing the low level

behaviour we are talking about to

0:32:020:32:07

water torture shows the extreme

nature of this debate. #metoo has

0:32:070:32:09

blown wide open what we mean by that

term sexual harassment, for example.

0:32:090:32:16

Actually most women do not subscribe

to the #metoo thing. I have called

0:32:160:32:21

it a middle-class women's club. It

is journalists and celebrities

0:32:210:32:24

subscribing to this. People on

Twitter and not representative of

0:32:240:32:28

the nation.

Do you subscribe to it?

I think I do. I think we are in

0:32:280:32:34

danger of throwing the baby out with

the bath water if we say that these

0:32:340:32:39

minor, what people are referring to

as minor problems, discount the

0:32:390:32:45

entire campaign. Whatever it is that

you think about a hand on the knee,

0:32:450:32:49

if we say those things don't matter

and the whole campaign is

0:32:490:32:52

ridiculous, that is an error.

Anybody else want to comment over

0:32:520:32:55

here? Claire?

Thank you. I think it

is a movement and it is a movement

0:32:550:33:02

because it is changing things. What

was really interesting about the

0:33:020:33:05

whole incident with the Presidents

Club, for the first time since I can

0:33:050:33:11

remember, a whole load of really big

organisations just backed away from

0:33:110:33:15

it and said it is not something we

want to do. What that says to me is

0:33:150:33:19

that the mood is changing and it has

changed.

So this is not women

0:33:190:33:23

holding themselves back but marching

forward. It is of the unions have

0:33:230:33:27

changed, smoke-filled rooms full of

men

0:33:270:33:33

men protecting pay differentials on

their own self-esteem and women in

0:33:340:33:36

the workplace challenging their own

positions. Things have changed at

0:33:360:33:42

the TUC.

Things have changed. The

general secretary of the TUC is a

0:33:420:33:46

woman. Most unions have women as

general secretaries. The big ones

0:33:460:33:50

don't but many do.

It was a day of

the dinosaurs before.

We have all

0:33:500:33:55

been called that!

Have you been

called that?

Oh, yes. The fact of

0:33:550:34:00

the matter is that in the traits you

movement, equal rights, whether it

0:34:000:34:06

is to do with racist behaviour or

sexual behaviour, is now taken very

0:34:060:34:10

seriously. -- in the trade union

movement. A very large proportion of

0:34:100:34:16

people in trade unions are now

women. And they are now making the

0:34:160:34:21

policy, making the way forward. I

think this might be the basis of a

0:34:210:34:26

great surge of trade union

membership, which will be good for

0:34:260:34:30

women. And good for the country as a

whole.

How do we move forward,

0:34:300:34:34

Kevin?

I agree with much of what

John is saying, however the

0:34:340:34:39

policymakers who made the decisions,

the laws about gender equality, you

0:34:390:34:43

talk about the lived experience of

women in the workplace, that is

0:34:430:34:48

entirely different. I will give one

simple example, which is a woman I

0:34:480:34:54

know applying for therapy, who works

for a major unionised organisation,

0:34:540:34:58

a major UK employer, and she did

voluntary overtime at work, as a

0:34:580:35:04

result of which, in the canteen, her

chair was accidentally kicked over

0:35:040:35:08

while she was sitting on it, her

tray was accidentally knocked off

0:35:080:35:12

the table, people accidentally

bumped into her, her car was

0:35:120:35:16

accidentally bashed by another

vehicle, because over time it was a

0:35:160:35:20

province of men. What was a woman

doing taking them's work?

When was

0:35:200:35:26

this?

Last year. There is insidious,

invisible behaviour going on. I

0:35:260:35:33

agree with the drip drip notion that

goes on. I want to say something

0:35:330:35:37

very quickly about the work of

Professor Ryan. They said CVs to

0:35:370:35:43

businesses for executive roles. All

they did was change the name of the

0:35:430:35:48

person. When we talk about language,

the very name a person has is

0:35:480:35:52

crucially important. They said CVs

and they changed the name of the

0:35:520:35:57

person, and when the perceived name

was male, there were more likely to

0:35:570:36:00

get an interview than a female. And

finally, the work on the glass cliff

0:36:000:36:05

that they did, when they looked at

board level appointments, and they

0:36:050:36:08

looked at FTSE 100 companies with

women on the board, and they found

0:36:080:36:13

that women were more likely to be

appointed as director into a failing

0:36:130:36:17

company that was destined for

failure than on boards which were

0:36:170:36:20

thrusting forward and striving

forward. There is an in-built

0:36:200:36:25

unconscious bias. I believe we need

to change the behaviour of men.

Last

0:36:250:36:32

word, Professor, very quickly. One

sentence. If we need to change, as

0:36:320:36:36

Kevin argues, is that the way ahead,

taking the behaviour of men?

The

0:36:360:36:41

bias in leadership roles is in men

and women, so naturally we need to

0:36:410:36:45

talk to men but we need women in the

room as well. We need to look at all

0:36:450:36:50

of our bias is towards men for

leadership roles.

Final word,

0:36:500:36:56

Catherine?

I agree with you. The

problem is not men, it is women as

0:36:560:37:01

well. Women are just as prejudiced

against women as men are and that

0:37:010:37:04

has been shown in loads of research.

Thank you all very much for your

0:37:040:37:11

participation. And you're fine

thoughts and contributions and

0:37:110:37:15

exchanges.

0:37:150:37:18

If you have something to say

about that debate log on

0:37:180:37:20

to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

and follow the link to where you can

0:37:200:37:23

join in the discussion online

or contribute on Twitter.

0:37:230:37:28

Next at Oasis Academy Lord's Hill,

here in Southampton,

0:37:280:37:30

we'll be debating if evidence

is a problem for religions.

0:37:300:37:38

But before that, make a note

of this email address.

0:37:390:37:42

It's [email protected]

0:37:420:37:43

if you'd like to apply

to be in the audience at

0:37:430:37:45

a future programme.

0:37:450:37:47

We're in Oxford next Sunday,

Leicester on February 18th and Bath

0:37:470:37:50

the week after that.

0:37:500:37:55

70 years ago, an amazing

discovery in the Qumran Caves

0:37:550:37:58

by the Dead Sea was

announced to the world.

0:37:580:38:04

Ancient manuscripts,

written between 200 years BC and 68

0:38:040:38:07

years CE were found,

some in pottery jars,

0:38:070:38:09

some in thousands of fragments.

0:38:090:38:14

The scrolls turned out to be

the very earliest group

0:38:140:38:17

of Old Testament and other religious

writings ever found.

0:38:170:38:19

Some were written in Hebrew,

some in Aramaic, some in Greek.

0:38:190:38:22

They threw new light

on the Second Temple period

0:38:220:38:24

of the Jewish religion.

0:38:240:38:28

They revealed some of the day to day

prayers and religious rituals

0:38:280:38:31

of a specific community

which believed in ideas of end

0:38:310:38:34

times and a coming apocalypse.

0:38:340:38:38

Some of the writings

are about the times and places

0:38:380:38:41

when Jesus and his disciples

are said to have existed, but none

0:38:410:38:44

makes any reference to them at all.

0:38:440:38:45

Is evidence a problem for religions?

0:38:450:38:52

Francesca, on Google scholar.

Excellent! Very often there is a

0:38:520:38:58

problem that some people of faith

can start with their conclusions and

0:38:580:39:02

cherry pick the evidence to fit with

their conclusions and ignore the

0:39:020:39:07

evidence that contradicts them.

Absolutely. This has been the case

0:39:070:39:11

with the Christian Bible. We like to

think that the books collected in

0:39:110:39:16

that particular binding are somehow

authoritative, historically reliable

0:39:160:39:19

and coherent in their theology,

their ideology, etc. But actually we

0:39:190:39:25

have got numerous different Bibles.

The Roman Catholics have a different

0:39:250:39:29

Bible from eastern orthodox

Christians from Roman Catholics from

0:39:290:39:32

Protestants. The same thing was true

in the ancient world. There was no

0:39:320:39:39

such thing as a Bible at the time of

the Dead Sea scrolls but we did have

0:39:390:39:43

very diverse Jewish communities who

has usually diverse ideas about what

0:39:430:39:49

religious writings were

authoritative. The Dead Sea scrolls

0:39:490:39:51

are shown is that many texts that

later Jewish groups and Christian

0:39:510:39:55

things we didn't think were

authoritative very important to some

0:39:550:40:00

communities. The scrolls came all

over the southern area of what we

0:40:000:40:05

now call Israel Palestine. Some are

libraries in major cities. It shows

0:40:050:40:13

that they were very diverse but more

importantly it shows that some of

0:40:130:40:16

the things that Christians say about

Jesus, that he exclusively brought

0:40:160:40:20

to bear, the coming apocalypse, the

kingdom of God, they were views that

0:40:200:40:25

were very much mainstream to

different sort of Jewish groups than

0:40:250:40:28

people previously realised.

There

are 27 books in the New Testament?

0:40:280:40:36

Someone not included and somewhere.

In the books that were not included,

0:40:360:40:39

what do they say about Jesus? It

paints a different picture of Jesus

0:40:390:40:45

from that evidence.

Give us the

other Jesus. The other Jesus

0:40:450:40:48

includes cheese is being a right

little monster when he was a kid.

0:40:480:40:52

Some of the apocryphal Gospels that

were written not very long after the

0:40:520:40:57

new test -- New Testament Gospels,

they talk about him killing his

0:40:570:41:06

playmates, striking his teachers,

and Jesus that is so anti-sex that

0:41:060:41:11

he appears in the bedroom of a newly

married couple and tell them not to

0:41:110:41:14

perform this filthy intercourse. He

tells them that they must take their

0:41:140:41:21

families and parents. It is a very

different Jesus to the one that most

0:41:210:41:25

Christians in the west like to

promote.

The spin doctors got hold

0:41:250:41:29

of it and they created the Jesus

that is far more compatible.

I don't

0:41:290:41:34

think you have got to start with the

conclusion and then look at the

0:41:340:41:37

evidence.

Did you know about that

Jesus?

I did. I will speak a bit

0:41:370:41:42

about my story.

With the time we

have got, just address that point.

0:41:420:41:47

Most scholars, as Francesca will

know, think that the Gospel of Saint

0:41:470:41:51

Thomas is the only one outside the

canon that we have in the New

0:41:510:41:54

Testament that contains any

historical information about Jesus.

0:41:540:41:57

Most scholars in New Testament

scholarship will say that things

0:41:570:42:01

like the cross gospel, the gospel of

Peter, these are the apocryphal

0:42:010:42:05

Gospels, have no real historical

content but... This is mainstream

0:42:050:42:11

scholars. There is a Jewish scholar,

and he thinks the gospel of Thomas

0:42:110:42:19

has some accurate historical

information but he doesn't think any

0:42:190:42:21

of the others have historical

information. He goes with the

0:42:210:42:25

synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark and

Luke, and the Gospel of Thomas as a

0:42:250:42:28

supplement to that. I don't think

you have got to start with the

0:42:280:42:33

conclusion and go with the evidence.

My story is a looked at the evidence

0:42:330:42:36

before I was a Christian, the

evidence for Jesus's life, his

0:42:360:42:40

claims and his resurrection, and I

found that convincing. During my

0:42:400:42:45

time to medical school, that

convinced me further.

The historical

0:42:450:42:49

evidence for his resurrection?

There

is plenty of historical evidence for

0:42:490:42:54

his resurrection. These are things

we would expect to see if he was

0:42:540:42:57

raised from the dead that we would

not see otherwise. Appearing to his

0:42:570:43:00

disciples gone his sceptics, people

who persecuted Christianity like

0:43:000:43:03

simple and then converted. This is

relevant to the Dead Sea scrolls in

0:43:030:43:09

the following way...

Is this

evidence or stories?

I think your

0:43:090:43:15

definition of historical evidence is

different to mine.

This is

0:43:150:43:22

mainstream scholars.

I am a

mainstream scholar and I have a

0:43:220:43:26

different idea of evidence.

Not

really. If we look at New Testament

0:43:260:43:30

historians, they pretty much all so

that Jesus's disciples, like simple,

0:43:300:43:34

had ostensible appearances of Jesus

after his death.

But by his own

0:43:340:43:40

claim, he never met Jesus when he

was alive. Most of them agree that

0:43:400:43:44

his team was empty but scholars

doubt this.

He was a crucifixion

0:43:440:43:50

victim, and he wouldn't have been

buried. What the Dead Sea scrolls

0:43:500:43:54

show ask if you look at the Temple

scroll is that crucifixion victims

0:43:540:43:59

in the first century were

nevertheless buried, which supports

0:43:590:44:02

what the Bible says.

We are

delighted to have another scholar on

0:44:020:44:08

the show. It is vital that we do. Do

you think that some scholars are

0:44:080:44:14

subject to confirmation bias and

they see something that fits their

0:44:140:44:21

picture and decide to have it and

they see Jesus is approving of sex

0:44:210:44:25

and killing other children and

bringing them back to life in some

0:44:250:44:27

bizarre childhood trick and they

discard that? Is something going on

0:44:270:44:33

here?

I can tell you something that

is particularly amazing about

0:44:330:44:36

scholars working on the Dead Sea

scrolls. You can find scholars of

0:44:360:44:40

different kinds beating each other

out but what is amazing about

0:44:400:44:43

scholars of the Dead Sea scrolls, we

are Christians, Jewish,

0:44:430:44:48

non-believers, men and women, and

because the material is brand-new,

0:44:480:44:51

we are just taking delight between

us in puzzling what it might mean.

0:44:510:44:57

It is completely new evidence. You

find it is much more a case of

0:44:570:45:03

teamwork and a lot less polemics

against who has got the true

0:45:030:45:07

interpretation. And that makes it

very exciting.

0:45:070:45:14

Why are using it is new? It has been

out since 1947.

That is not true,

0:45:140:45:21

much of it has only been out since

the 1990s. The earliest publications

0:45:210:45:24

were in the 50s.

The Damascus

document from Egypt. It is the same

0:45:240:45:32

of some of the dead Sea Scrolls. The

dead Sea Scrolls give your picture

0:45:320:45:36

2000 years ago the reality...

Why

wasn't Jesus mentioned?

0:45:360:45:44

wasn't Jesus mentioned?

He is kind

of mentioned. He seems to know about

0:45:450:45:48

what was going on in Qumran and the

dead Sea Scrolls. You get the terms

0:45:480:45:54

sons of a are used by the

Qumranites, lots of phrases in the

0:45:540:45:58

dead Sea Scrolls appear in the new

Testament. He was aware of Qumran,

0:45:580:46:04

he might have been a member.

We have

no evidence.

We have.

That he was

0:46:040:46:13

there? No. Most of the first

Christians were Jewish, it came out

0:46:130:46:17

of a Jewish background.

They knew

the dead Sea scroll material.

That

0:46:170:46:23

is not what I said.

No, what I'm

saying is that Paul knew about the

0:46:230:46:27

writings of the dead Sea Scrolls but

the problem is we all seem to rely

0:46:270:46:31

on the dead Sea Scrolls as if they

were gospel, they were not.

I never

0:46:310:46:38

said anything of the kinds. I am

saying that we are misleading

0:46:380:46:46

ourselves if we think the Dead Sea

Scrolls are...

I know you have your

0:46:460:46:57

own views on the subject?

We will

never understand the Dead Sea

0:46:570:47:07

Scrolls or the Bible is unless you

understand the Egyptian factor.

I

0:47:070:47:11

suggest we look at the Dead Sea

Scrolls in order to understand the

0:47:110:47:14

dead Sea Scrolls.

The Egyptian

factor, ITV, Saturday night, I like

0:47:140:47:19

it.

You cannot understand the Dead

Sea Scrolls unless you looked Egypt.

0:47:190:47:23

That is your view.

I think you on

your way to saying something?

What I

0:47:230:47:31

want to say about the Dead Sea

Scrolls as we found copies thereof

0:47:310:47:34

what we now call the Bible, the Old

Testament part of the Christian

0:47:340:47:38

Bible and the Jewish Bible that over

1000 years earlier than the first

0:47:380:47:46

complete copies we have had. In

itself, it is fantastic. On the

0:47:460:47:50

whole, we can't really speak about

the Bible or the Dead Sea Scrolls

0:47:500:47:54

like Francesca was mentioning

because they are Scrolls, if you're

0:47:540:47:58

interested in texts, collecting

Scrolls, you can collect as many as

0:47:580:48:01

you want. You do not need to decide

what goes between the covers of a

0:48:010:48:06

book and what order it goes into.

What is a very important point to

0:48:060:48:11

make is that a lot of that text is

pretty similar to what we have now,

0:48:110:48:15

but there are also some small

differences between the text as we

0:48:150:48:20

have it now.

But Charlotte, does

evidence, hard evidence, really

0:48:200:48:25

matter? Are the deeper truth is not

the point?

I find when it comes to

0:48:250:48:30

the deeper truths about the Hebrew

Bible...

The deeper truths about

0:48:300:48:34

love and how to treat your fellow

humans, the general message?

The

0:48:340:48:39

general message I take from the

Hebrew Bible that the whole story is

0:48:390:48:44

a bit of a mess, it all went badly

wrong, the promises made to the

0:48:440:48:47

Kings and the priests were not

coming true, the country was lost,

0:48:470:48:52

the Excel...

Did Moses exist?

I do

not think in that form, no. As a

0:48:520:48:59

literary figure, yes.

But as an

actual person, you do not believe

0:48:590:49:07

Moses necessarily existed?

I don't.

Moses?

0:49:070:49:11

Yes.

I have studied one of these

Scrolls intensely, the copper

0:49:110:49:16

scroll, there are Greek letters

which spell out a name, there are

0:49:160:49:22

Egyptian hieroglyphics. You have not

looked at it, you don't know.

Excuse

0:49:220:49:27

me, how do you know I have not

looked at it?

If you looked Egypt,

0:49:270:49:32

they were waiting for three

messiahs, two messiahs.

0:49:320:49:37

Two messiahs mentioned in the Dead

Sea Scrolls, and a prophet.

Did

0:49:370:49:44

Jesus say he was the son of God?

We

don't know anything Jesus said.

0:49:440:49:50

Everything credited to him has come

to a severe texts. All sorts of

0:49:500:49:56

words...

According to some scholars

there is no evidence, he said he was

0:49:560:50:00

the son of man, quite a common

phrase.

A common phrase, it could

0:50:000:50:05

mean human, but it is quite a loaded

phrase. The proffered Ezequiel talks

0:50:050:50:10

about a high state is human. The son

of God was a royal title, it was

0:50:100:50:15

used of Kings, the Kings of

Jerusalem and the Kings of many

0:50:150:50:18

other ancient West Asian cultures.

It was a claim to semi-divinity.

One

0:50:180:50:24

example that most historians think

Jesus said, historians take a

0:50:240:50:28

critical approach and think Jesus

said some things in the gospel but

0:50:280:50:32

not others. Pretty much all new

Testament historians think that when

0:50:320:50:38

John the Baptist sent his followers

to Jesus and said are you the one

0:50:380:50:42

who is to come? You see the blind

see, the deaf hear, the dead raised,

0:50:420:50:51

go and tell them. He is quoting

Isaiah and Sam is coming he has

0:50:510:50:55

quoted that a little, rearrange that

a little. -- he is quoting Isaiah

0:50:550:51:02

and psalms. But there was another

passage which said God will send a

0:51:020:51:06

messiah whom heaven and earth will

obey, and when he does you will see

0:51:060:51:10

the dead raised, the lame walking,

the blind seeing and the deaf

0:51:100:51:14

hearing. This is Jesus is the

understanding he had of himself, he

0:51:140:51:20

thought of himself as God's Messiah

whom heaven and earth will obey. How

0:51:200:51:24

do you explain that self conception?

Is it because he is crazy? I have

0:51:240:51:29

done a lot of work in psychiatry and

that does not seem plausible. Is he

0:51:290:51:34

lying? You had no interest in

lying...

How do you know it was not

0:51:340:51:40

plausible he was crazy? I am not

suggesting for a second that he was,

0:51:400:51:44

but you dismiss that. CS Lewis talks

about this. There is no evidence he

0:51:440:51:48

was crazy? What is the evidence...?

I have walked... Worked with people

0:51:480:51:57

who have delusions that you are

Jesus.

He was always driving demons

0:51:570:52:02

out of people. What were they?

Scholars disagree. Some people think

0:52:020:52:07

it is their way of talking about

mental illness when they did not

0:52:070:52:10

have a strict job psychiatry, others

think there are such things as

0:52:100:52:14

demons. I am personally a little bit

agnostic on it. There are reputable

0:52:140:52:20

psychiatrist who believe in it.

In

Demons?

There are some.

0:52:200:52:28

Demons?

There are some.

You are a

psychiatrist?

Psychologist. We are

0:52:280:52:33

the living embodiment here of the

question, is evidence a problem for

0:52:330:52:37

religions? Clearly listening to

people... What is going on, it is a

0:52:370:52:44

major problem, because the

disagreements are so strong. One of

0:52:440:52:47

the questions for me is how do you

move from evidence to truth? One of

0:52:470:52:52

the things I observe is that people

of faith, religious people, tend to

0:52:520:52:58

move quite quickly from evidence

which is quite disparate to facts. I

0:52:580:53:03

recently watched Miriam Margulies in

America, a fascinating programme on

0:53:030:53:09

the BBC where she interviewed some

very fundamental people who had

0:53:090:53:13

absolute religious fact, I have

evidence that the Earth is only 5000

0:53:130:53:18

years old.

That is bonkers. I have

evidence which says evolution does

0:53:180:53:23

not even merit the word theory, it

is so papery and thin. They have

0:53:230:53:31

started with their conclusions.

The

problem with fundamentalists in

0:53:310:53:36

different religions is they move

from a very selective reading of a

0:53:360:53:39

select choice of cherry picked

information and say I have fact.

0:53:390:53:46

Sadly we live now in a world where

facts are so meaningless, so badly

0:53:460:53:53

abused, we are presented, as Kelly

and Conway famously said, with

0:53:530:53:56

alternative truths. Most people call

them lies but now you can say

0:53:560:54:04

evidence, facts, it is all

discredited.

With you in a minute,

0:54:040:54:09

Robert. Good morning.

Good morning!

I went to a catholic girls' School

0:54:090:54:16

in Southampton and I have to say

that a Catholic education is

0:54:160:54:19

probably one of the most confusing

things you can have. You go to your

0:54:190:54:23

science class and you are told you

cannot say anything unless you have

0:54:230:54:27

evidence for it, you go to your

history class and you are told you

0:54:270:54:32

had to think is that buyers, who

wrote it, why did they write it? You

0:54:320:54:36

have mass, and everything you have

learned in those lessons goes out

0:54:360:54:42

the window. You have to believe what

is there.

It is a different

0:54:420:54:50

evidential bar? I see, yes.

There is

not much space with the deeper

0:54:500:54:55

truths.

Robert, I know you are over

there. I do not think you have

0:54:550:55:01

spoken yet on the programme?

I

really do think that religion has

0:55:010:55:05

been around for a really, really

long time, there are so many

0:55:050:55:09

different religions going on, and I

think the evidence that has come up,

0:55:090:55:15

although it might disapprove certain

things and prove others, I really do

0:55:150:55:19

think that belief systems that have

been around for such a long time, I

0:55:190:55:23

really do think that the evidence

that is coming around to... I really

0:55:230:55:26

do not think it will make such an

impact that it will make much of a

0:55:260:55:30

difference.

Because they are too

solidified?

I think they are too set

0:55:300:55:35

in stone for them to change.

We had a mention of evolution and

0:55:350:55:42

how it works, Francesca, it evolves

under their religion is particularly

0:55:420:55:45

suited to a particular environment,

survival of the fittest, it survives

0:55:450:55:52

and flourishes and it is all about

what is happening at the time,

0:55:520:55:57

whether it is useful. Protestantism

and capitalism have been linked?

0:55:570:56:00

Absolutely. I think... The best way

to describe any kind of religion is

0:56:000:56:08

to say that religion is an aspect of

the sociality of what it is to be a

0:56:080:56:12

human being. Even the discussion we

had earlier this morning about

0:56:120:56:17

gender and feminism, all of these

debates are of their time in that

0:56:170:56:22

particular moment, religion is the

same.

The goddesses should have done

0:56:220:56:27

more to help themselves.

They help

themselves back.

It is the goddess

0:56:270:56:33

is

fault. You did a brilliant

programme on this, where did all the

0:56:330:56:40

goddesses go?

Monotheism emerged, we

ended up with a God in Judaism and

0:56:400:56:47

Christianity who is jealous and

intolerant and preferred the company

0:56:470:56:50

of circumcised men to his pantheon

of gods and goddesses, and with the

0:56:500:56:56

Protestant isolation of that

particular God than the roles of the

0:56:560:57:00

goddesses were almost written out of

the biblical traditions. They

0:57:000:57:04

re-emerge from time to time.

0:57:040:57:09

re-emerge from time to time.

Robert,

you agree with this, in some of the

0:57:110:57:14

Scriptures there is a lot of fake

news, we were talking about that

0:57:140:57:18

earlier?

Absolutely. Archaeology is

hard evidence that you can feel and

0:57:180:57:22

touch. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, in

the Temple scrolls which you know

0:57:220:57:27

about, and you, Charlotte, it

describes a temple 1600 qubits by

0:57:270:57:31

600 cubits wide. That is a huge

temple.

Was there a Ark?

No,

0:57:310:57:42

absolutely not. The Ark of the

covenant, different. The temple

0:57:420:57:47

scroll, why did it give those

dimensions? They are the dimensions

0:57:470:57:53

of the greatest temple...

Know, the

temple depicted as an idealised

0:57:530:57:59

temple.

Why? Why other measurement

is exactly the same as that of a

0:57:590:58:03

Temple?

I do not think they are.

Canales is a something about truth,

0:58:030:58:09

I was left hanging... Can I also say

something about truth? The Hebrew

0:58:090:58:16

Bible is a mess is not what I want

to be my main code.

30 seconds.

The

0:58:160:58:22

old Testament was written at

everything went wrong and it shows

0:58:220:58:26

that humans need to continue to

question how they have behaved and

0:58:260:58:29

what we are doing. There is no

truth, we need to reflect on our

0:58:290:58:34

actions.

We will continue to

question how we behave and reflect

0:58:340:58:38

on our actions next week.

0:58:380:58:39

Next week we're in Oxford,

so do join us then.

0:58:390:58:43

Thank you so much for watching.

0:58:430:58:44

But for now, it's goodbye

and have a great Sunday.

0:58:440:58:52

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