Episode 4 The Big Questions

Today on The Big Questions,

anti-Semitism and the left,

the true cost of porn,

and safe spaces to take drugs.

APPLAUSE

Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell.

Welcome to The Big Questions.

Today we're live from the Students'

Union at Northumbria University

in Newcastle upon Tyne.

Welcome, everybody,

to The Big Questions.

APPLAUSE

Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day

with this year's theme

being the power of words.

And words like anti-Semitic

and anti-Zionist have been

particularly troubling

to the Labour Party over

the past couple of years.

Now, since the recent elections

to Labour's National

Executive Committee,

there have been words

bandied about the new head

of the Disputes Committee,

Momentum director,

Christine Shawcroft.

She's been criticised after she only

gave two cases involving

anti-Semitism a warning last week.

Does the left have a problem

with anti-Semitism?

You left the Labour Party.

Why? Because I am half Jewish,

married to a Jewish woman and we

have a Jewish son and we felt the

Labour Party was no longer the place

that we thought it had been. We have

been Labour voters our entire lives,

trade union members...

Where is your

evidence?

It is a good question. A

lot of the debate about

anti-Semitism is complex and I do

not expect everyone in the audience

or at home to understand what can be

a really complex debate but it is

not that complex if you boil it

down. I have brought along evidence.

Always good to have evidence rather

than just opinions. Evidence put on

social media by either Labour Party

members or Labour Party offices or

even Labour Party elected

representatives. A Labour Party

member, also, by the way, a member

of one of the groups that Naomi

represents, Free Speech On Israel,

the Holocaust and the phoney 6

million, I know the official version

regarding systematic...

That is

not... That does not represent the

organisation.

That is evidence. A

post from a Labour member.

One more.

Back to 2015, David Cameron is part

of the Zionist elite group of morons

obliged to feet the Zionist Jew

masters.

Come back on that. Whenever

we do any debate like this, it is so

divisive, it sometimes turns into a

shout fest. I will try to be done in

the middle. I want to give everyone

a fair shot. Accusations there, we

have seen the social media stuff, it

is horrible, take it back to the

central question, does the left have

a problem with anti-Semitism?

There

is a problem with anti-Semitism in

our society, as there was a problem

with rising racism of many different

kinds. The evidence shows Muslims

are a much more vulnerable target

Alan Jews and the Roma gypsies are

even more vulnerable -- more

vulnerable target than the dues.

vulnerable target than the dues. 7%

of Brits have negative opinions

about Jews, 40% have negative

opinions about Roma, 30% about

Muslims. It is horrendous, rising

and terrifying, the right is on the

rise.

What about the left?

I will

get into that. The problem we have

on the left is that we are being

asked to redefine anti-Semitism. I

am sure everyone knows what

anti-Semitism is, hostility,

prejudice against Jewish people.

Allow me, if I may, focus on this as

a question, if you say that I am not

in any way racist about someone's

ethnicity or about Jewish people,

but I do not think the state of

Israel should exist as it currently

exists, is that anti-Semitic?

It is

not because Israel is not a person.

You can only be racist against an

individual. I do not deny, however,

that much of the language some

people ignorantly use...

Denying

self determination... On this

particular point, denying self

determination...

No, why would it

be? If I were to say about any other

group in the world, I am not sure,

are they really are a nation? The

case of Jews, my four grandparents

came from eastern Europe, Russia,

Poland, Germany, Ukraine, no

connection with the Middle East,

many Jews lived in Middle Eastern

countries, Arabic speaking Jews,

they share an Arabic culture, people

in New York love bagels, are we a

nation?

That is debatable. It is not

the Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi show.

I

will come back in a moment. And

Sheila and Chris too. The notion

about saying the state of Israel

does not have a right to exist...

I

did not say that. I said the right

to self-determination is something

one can debate.

Is that

anti-Semitism?

On the left... If you

want to wear a badge that says, I am

not anti-Semitic, but, of all the

people in the world, I refuse to

grant the rights and respect the

right of self-determination to the

Jews alone, then wear the badge with

pride if that is where you are. That

is what it is. It is no less than

that.

That is a mischaracterisation.

It is really important. For people

watching at home, decent, British

people who have not spent their

lives in the wars on the extreme

left, this is confusing and it is

really confusing if you get someone

who is Jewish to say, it is not

anti-Semitic to do X, Y, Z. It is

important everyone watching

understands the voices of people

like Naomi with her tiny group, they

represent an extremely...

I am the

wrong kind of Jew, Saul.

Let me

carry on. I respect your right to

have your view. Jews are clueless

group.

We are not all Zionists --

Jews are a large group.

The Jewish

leadership council, the Chief Rabbi,

liberal synagogues, reformed...

Let

us take it to the Labour Party. Is

there not a parallel here, Anna

Turley? If you criticise Israel...

None of this is criticising Israel.

This is where the line is, the

criticism of Israel itself, where it

seeps into anti-Zionism,

anti-Semitism. If I may, thank you.

Sorry.

I understand the emotive

nature of all of this, of course. Is

it not the same, if you criticise

Israel, it is not anti-Semitism? It

is perfectly legitimate to criticise

Islam as a religion but it is not

Islamophobia. There is an absolute

parallel.

I am heartbroken to hear

Saul and other members of the Jewish

community who have lost faith in the

Labour Party. Over 100 years history

of standing up to prejudice.

Are

they right to lose faith?

Our values

have always been about tackling

prejudice, racism, making sure

everyone has freedom of speech and

tolerance. I believe in those values

and that is the kind of society I

want to build. I am heartbroken to

see the rise of anti-Semitism. But I

do believe there is an issue on the

left. There is no problem with

criticising Israel's domestic

policy, foreign policy, settlements,

human rights. We are free and at

liberty to criticise any government

around the world but we have to

think carefully about the language

we use and that is what Holocaust

Memorial Day is about because as

soon as you lift it out of criticism

of government policy into

anti-Semitic tropes we have seen

around wealthy Jew...

Controlling

the media. The banking dynasty. They

are creeping back into social media.

What is anti-Zionism?

It is a

difficult definition. If you are

believing the state of Israel, you

are Zionist. Emily Thornberry said

Jeremy Corbyn believes in the right

of Israel to exist. It is party

policy to believe in the two-state

solution.

Do you believe in Israel's

right to exist?

But it can be used

as a term of abuse.

If you believe

in Israel's right to exist and

self-determination, are you a

Zionist, Chris?

I believe in its

right to exist, you could have an

idea about whether the declaration

was a good idea, but Israel is a

fact of life and we have to

accept... I do think we have got to

the nub of the problem. Two issues

become conflated, the abuse you find

trawling through the internet...

It

does not take long to find.

And

discussion about... It is now one of

the most right wing regimes that

Israel has ever had. In the process

of setting up an apartheid state and

I think we ought to be allowed to

talk about that.

APPLAUSE

They have colonised the West Bank

illegally. They are beginning to

ethnically cleanse east Jerusalem

and they have herded many of the

Palestinians into Gaza. I have heard

plenty of Jewish people use the word

apartheid state. Plenty of people in

Israel oppose what is going on.

Those of us is not in Israel should

be a -- should be allowed to use the

same terms without being accused of

anti-Semitism. The two most critical

people in the House of Commons, most

critical about this, Harry Cohen,

and another, also Jewish.

They call

them self hating Jews. The audience,

right back with you, Sheila, in a

second, I will go round a few

people. Good morning. Something

Chris Mullin said.

That accusation

that Israel is an apartheid state,

minorities in Israel constitute

nearly 20% of the population and

have exactly the same rights as

Jews.

Sadly not true. I cannot live

in certain towns. They cannot drive

on certain roads.

This is exactly

the kind of thing... The

interruptions, they confirm the

truth and the questions that we are

debating here today.

Why does it

confirm the truth?

Saying something

people like Chris Mullin and Naomi

disagree with, they interrupt

straightaway. My son has lived in

Israel for over a year, he has lived

effectively in an Arab section,

generally Arab because it is an

older section, mixture of Christian

Arabs, Muslims, Jews...

Taking it

back. Does the left have a problem

with anti-Semitism?

Yes.

I would

like to say the Labour Party in its

current form can be the most

critical government of Israel's

apartheid policies against the

Palestinians and this clearly scares

the pro-Israeli advocates who do not

believe there is an issue. From my

time in Palestine, I was appalled at

the way Palestinians were treated at

the hands of the Israeli government

and the soldiers. I witnessed and I

spoke to mothers forced to give

birth at Israeli checkpoints, 350

Palestinian children currently

illegally incarcerated in Israeli

prisons against the UN Charter. I am

a lawyer, I have read the Geneva

convection, it forbids Israel from

using collective punishment -- the

Geneva Convention. How uncomfortable

does it make you feel? They made me

feel uncomfortable. I'm not denying

there was a problem with

anti-Semitism. However, the Home

Affairs Committee report released

recently stated that the majority of

anti-Semitism is coming from far

right wing groups and behaviour

associated with that. On one hand,

anti-Zionism, people say it comes

from the left, anti-Semitism from

the right, you want to come in,

Sheila? Getting away from the state

of Israel, anti-Semitism has been on

the left for a long time, in all

political parties in this country

and generally amongst the populace.

1905, that aliens act was introduced

because the social Democratic

Federation in the east and rising up

against what they saw as people

coming into the country, some people

say Karl Marx showed anti-Semitism.

I do not want to concentrate on the

left because it is everywhere but we

need to understand the language and

the stereotypes are absolutely in

Jewish history. In the 80s, I was in

a group against anti-Semitism

because of anti-Semitism in the

women's liberation movement, there

was a representation of Israeli

soldiers as blond haired and

jackbooted, I do not want to talk

about the exact accusations of now,

but it makes no sense to try to not

look at Andy -- at anti-Semitism in

the Labour Party. We do not expect

it on the left.

I would not in any

way describe myself as a friend of

Israel, I am a supporter of the

Palestinian cause. As an antifascist

campaigner over the decades, I would

say back in the 80s, anti-Semitism

was very clearly a far right

phenomenon and it was in the Tory

party and in sections of the left as

well and communist and so on. In the

last few years, and you can monitor

it on social media, that

anti-Semitism has shifted left and

that... I do not know what is

happening in the Labour Party, but

last year, people were identifying

themselves as supporters of Jeremy

Corbyn before the election, there

were a lot of anti-Semitic tweeting

from people identifying themselves

as voters of Jeremy Corbyn. They may

be confused. Not everyone backing

him is a socialist and so on.

Absolutely, there has been a shift

from the far right to the left of

these ideas.

In terms of issues on anti-Zionism

and Zionism and the right of states

to exist n international law there's

no such right. The state of Israel

does

Have the right to exist,

France, there's no such right

enshrined in international law. It

is a problem on the left. I've been

campaigning on this issue for a

number of years.

number of years. I believe whilst

the institute for Jewish policy

research says the issue on the left

there is broadly a denial

anti-Semitism is an issue. There's a

dismissive attitude towards people

who raise this. Not treating it with

the sensitivity it needs. The left

really need to educate themselves on

how to recognise and tackle this

issue as best as possible and be

proper allies to our Jewish

compatriots.

Can we talk about the

profession of racism. Anti-Semitism

is a form of racism. What frightens

me as a form of due.

It is not about

being a due. Not a matter of birth,

not a political view. You

interrupted me so I'll interrupt

you.

Do not deny her ethnicity.

It

has nothing to do with it.

Jewish

people need to be very wary of

rising racism. It affects them

alongside all other victims of

vulnerable minorities. I want to

look at the way historically dues

have approached this terrifying

racism and this is over centuries,

dating back to medieval

Christianity, a lot of it. We had a

choice at the end of the 19th

Century. Were dues going to adopt a

new model, political Zionism, which

was very much a minority ideology at

the end of the 19th Century. Or were

we going to decide we would fight

alongside others who fight injustice

in society. There was a split. The

Zionist movement decided to look for

an imperial patron to find a state

where dues could go...

We haven't

time for the whole narrative.

People

need to under ginned there is an

extensive movement, a socialist Bunt

movement, a mass party in Poland.

People died fighting the Nazis as

anti-Zionists. When people use the

fact dues suffered in the past to

justify what Israel does to the

Palestinians. They have a right

toself determination. Israeli racism

needs to be challenged.

Excuse me.

While we haven't the time in this

debate, we hear this phrase, the

word Holocaust applied to what

happened to the Palestinian people.

I didn't say that.

You see it all

the time. Does anyone say that's an

appropriate word? Does anyone here

say that's appropriate?

No,

It is

deliberately insulting and demeaning

to Jewish people?

to Jewish people?

Holocaust denial

interpretations...

This is against

people from...

Naomi. Whatever you

think about the plight of

Palestinian people by any

international definition it is

nowhere near being a Holocaust but

people use the word all the time.

It

is really depressing in any debate

around Israel and Palestine, the

language is inappropriate. Used to

historical victim status is used to

justify against the Israeli state to

say they are just doing this,

they're justified because of this,

they use it as an excuse to carry

out what they are doing. This is

anti-Semiticic language. We are

discussing a really sensitive issue.

We have to be very thoughtful, take

the situation as it is and apply the

highest rigorous standards of

looking at the Israeli state as we

do around the world.

Do we do that?

Some people do, no doubt. There is a

small problem on the left. I think

it is rather less than the problem

on the ride and perhaps society as a

whole. There are two new dimensions

in the last few years or in the case

of digital media. The rise of

digital media make it easy to

express prejudice, including

anti-Semitism. The second factor, it

has only arisen in the last three or

four years, there are some on the

right of the political spectrum who

see this as yet another stick with

which to bash Jeremy Corbyn. You saw

it...

Chris, let me come in there.

It is a really key point. We have an

ethnic minority, dues represent 0.7%

of the population in this country.

199.7% of people in the population

are not dues. Most people have never

met one. That tiny ethnic minority

puts up its hand and the process a

profoundly disturbing and

uncomfortable. The people I thought

were on my side, I'm hearing some of

those voices, not all, but some of

those voices that are saying and

doing things which are expressly

anti-Semetic. What you would expect

there, how you would expect the left

to respond with any other ethnicity

is go back to anti-racist first

principles. Listen, think about the

language and make sure you use the

MacPherson principles about treating

something as if it is a racist

incident.

That's not being applied?

No, what's happened there, Chris is

a great example of it there, saying

when dues like me stand up and say

there is anti-Semitism coming from

the left, you don't stop, listen,

think about the language and take it

as face value, you say we're lying

because we want to do down and bring

down Jeremy Corbyn and the left.

Would you do that about any other

ethnic group? I think not.

If it was

happening with any other, we would.

We have to leave it there. I've been

doing debates like this, on this

topic for 30 years. There will be

another chance. Thank you all very

much.

If you have something

to say about that debate,

log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

and follow the link to where you can

join in the discussion online.

Or contribute on Twitter.

We're also debating live this

morning at Northumbria

University's Students' Union,

is porn damaging to society?

And should there be licensed safe

places to take drugs?

So, get tweeting or emailing

on those topics now,

or send us any other ideas

or thoughts you may

have about the show.

You might suppose the use of online

pornography is largely confined

to the privacy of people's homes,

but more than 40% of businesses have

to regularly reprimand a high

percentage of their employees

for watching porn at work.

So, it's not just in the Houses of

Parliament that these things go on.

Britain ranks second

in the world for traffic to one

of the world's leading porn sites,

only beaten by the USA.

I'll spare you the details

of the precise types of porn

Brits like to watch,

but the words lesbian, mothers,

step sister and mature

feature heavily in the most

searched for sites.

Is porn damaging to society?

Sheila Jeffreys from Object scop

women are not Sex Objects. Damaging

to society. Adults watching,

partaking in porn, it is a free

society. It is part of the whole

march of sexual emancipation and

liberation?

Pornography is not a

private pursued people get up to in

their bedrooms. It as huge and

massive industry. Back in the 1970s

I was in the first anti-pornography

group in this country. It's changed

hugely since then. Got more and more

violent. Pornography is men's free

speech. They speak with each other

through the harm they do to women's

body. Women in pornography have to

take painkillers, mussel relaxants.

It affects the women in it. I see it

as a form of violence against those

women. It has huge effects on

society in general. In primary

school we've a massive amount of

sexual assault from boys on girls.

That wasn't happening before. In

Parliament, it is affecting

democracy. Women MPs are having a

huge amount of sexual abuse against

them. Diane ablot got one letter in

green pen a week. She now has

thousands and thousands of racists

but also I'vically viciously sexist,

including rape and death threats

towards herself. The state of women

is enormously harmful.

It would be

discourteous of me not to take your

point at this particular as a porn

porn actress. Kelly. When Sheila

started your hand went up.

The part

Sheila was saying about the abuse of

the girls in the industry. Can I ask

have you been in the industry

yourself, Sheila?

No I haven't. I do

know women who have, quite a few.

They've talked to me about it.

Being

in the industry, if you haven't been

in it yourself you don't know what

goes on in there. There's no need to

take painkillers.

Is the it

degrading?

Only if it was you

wouldn't be in the industry, would

you?

Are people treated respectfully

within that?

They are, yes. You've

got your boundaries, safe words.

Has

it any damaging effect on people who

watch it?

No. Back in the eighties

and nineties, it wasn't free. So it

wasn't that damaging to society, or

not at all. Now it is readily

available on the free porn porn

sites. Porn porn in itself isn't

damaging, it is the free porn porn

sites which means it gets into the

wrong hands that is making it

damaging because it is getting into

the wrong hands.

Do you think people

are too young watching it? Rosy, you

have astudied this. Is it degrading,

damaging bad for society?

I don't

believe it is. It has driven a huge

technological advancement. It has

helped drive internet, Wye if I,

DVD, importantographers are often

the first people to take advantage

of these new technologies, making

sure they can be rolled out into

wider society use. That's one major

advantage of it.

It is a secondary

effect, isn't it?

The way producers

utilise...

Let's talk about people.

Porn and people.

Degradation is a

hugely subjective term. It is not up

to anybody else to tell people what

they should and shouldn't find

degrading. It is up to the

individual to decide what their

reaction is to what they are

viewing. They can then choose to

accept it, reject it, not view it if

they don't want to and take personal

responsibility for that are

viewership.

There's not a lot of

choice. Women do not chose to be

affected by pornography. The

children in school. Young girls who

have to do anal sex. One fifth of

young people under 25 do that. The

women find it very, very painful.

They do not wish to do it. It is

constructing sexual practice, the

status of women, the abuse women

get. It is not just about private

choice. We have to look at how this

extraordinary industry, a propaganda

of woman hatred, is what I call it.

Carry on Jerry.

I often here this

from anti-porn advocates. People try

anal sex.

If people are offended by

some of the terms we are using.

We'll try to proceed with a Mody

comof BBC censorship. In what way is

it good for society, pornography?

Before I jump on that, can I say,

I've, my book, I've dealt with

object. They present themselves as a

women's human rights organisation.

Actually, Object were brought to my

attention by a friend who was is a

stripper. These women have turned up

to our workplace and started

screaming abuse at us as we go to

work. Now they are lobbying Hackney

and Tower Hamlets council to close

down our workplace. They stay they

are stopping us being abused. They

refuse to speak to us.

Object?

They

do not engage with women in the

industry has they claim to.

You

believe they are bogus in that

respect? What are the positives of

porn?

In terms of the evidence, then

absolutely, the evidence

overwhelmingly suggests porn has

overall been beneficial to society

rather than harmful. So,

notwithstanding Sheila's anecdotal

comments on children abusing each

other in playgrounds and that kind

of thing... ...

5,500 sexual assault

over three years.

Though coincides

with a steep decline in the West and

Britain and in America of violent

crime and sex Sewell violence. In

America, sexual violence has

declined according to FBI stats.

The House of Commons committee

looked at sexual assault in schools

and did make the connection with

pornography in terms of the sexual

practice with an organ we will not

speak of, the research on that does

say the boys themselves say it was

pornography that made them do it and

it is enormously harmful to the

girls.

There is quite a bit of

evidence. These studies are very

politicised...

I don't think so.

This is not a problem with

pornography, this is a problem with

the failings of our sexual education

system.

APPLAUSE

People are not given...

To navigate

the current sexual landscape.

Does

it give young men, for example, a

certain view of women?

No.

In the

audience, good morning.

Is it

damaging to society. Sex is a form

of human expression. What is more

damaging is not the fact... Since

man could scrawl on cave walls,

there has been pornography. Look at

the Elgin marbles...

Way before

that.

What is more damaging as

people telling people what their

morality should be.

I think we are

discussing the personal side of

pornography and what you want to

choose as an adult. A bit at the

moment on Facebook of a two-year-old

who approaches Alexa, the machine

that tells you what is happening in

your house, he says to the machine,

where is my game? He names a game,

Alexa assumes he has asked Phil

porn...

We are talking about adults.

That is how pervasive it has become,

people who are not expecting it, not

looking for it, they can be affected

by it. We need to look at how we can

control it as a society.

Morning.

One of the problems is, I am not

against pornography per se, but one

of the things I would like to say

and maybe ask you because you are in

the porn industry, do you think it

gives young women in particular an

absolutely impossible ideal to look

up to because most women do not look

like porn stars and are they

aspiring to do so and is it

damaging?

No. Each to their own. I

didn't come into this industry

because I wanted to be like anybody

else. I am me, I work as me, I'll

come out and I am back to me. I'm

not aspiring to have people looking

like me.

You do not need to answer,

has it affected your relationships,

personal relationships? Your

emotional life? And your sex life?

It has made everything better.

I

would say accusations are thrown at

porn, but the rest of the media is

worse.

worse. In porn, you will see lots of

different bodies...

What is porn?

The gentleman behind me pointed out

porn has been around the tens of

thousands of years. There is an old

saying, what I like is erotica, what

you like is porn. It is a pejorative

term for erotica.

You work porn

addict until you had the dialogue

with God -- you were. Jesus helped

you.

It was in my early teens when I

experienced addiction to porn. My

first exposure was at that age of

eight. We are talking about adults,

you say, but that average age of

first exposure to adult material is

11. I think... That is probably an

old statistic.

Tell us about your

addiction.

It started with a Page 3

in a newspaper, we had an art

project in school, doing

papier-mache...

Is that porn?

It is

pornographic. It was a great way for

me, it awakened a curiosity in me, I

had never seen images like that

before. I was 13 years old when I

had that first experience and I

began to explore online and very

quickly the things I was looking at

became more extreme. I realised that

what started as curiosity began to

have a hold on my life, I reached a

point where I was no longer

something that I might do if I had a

bit of spare time.

Every day?

Every

spare moment I had. When I did not

have a spare moment, more often than

not, I was thinking about, when can

I grab a moment? Back in the days

when you had one computer in the

house.

There was a moment when you

felt like you were having a dialogue

with God?

I was 17, at a large youth

camp, 10,000 young people, there was

a speaker, I cannot remember much of

what he said, but the one thing that

stuck in my mind is he looked out

into the crowd, I felt like he was

looking at me, he probably wasn't,

as a 17-year-old lad, very insecure,

I had been feeling like this thing

that was going on in my life was not

good for me.

Made a connection?

He

shouted out, God can see it, I can

see it, and I was terrified because

he scared the life out of me and I

thought he could see this thing I

had been feeling ashamed of. He

called for people to stand and to

receive prayer. The various things,

addictions...

Did you look at any

porn after that?

You said you were a

virgin until you got married and you

felt guilty about the prospect of

premarital sex so your addiction to

porn is steeped in religious guilt.

That was cognitive dissonance in

your life, do you think that is the

point?

I have the utmost sympathy

for your story and I completely

understand that for some

individuals, pornography can disrupt

their lives and I definitely

recognise that.

Background is

relevant.

Definitely.

Social

context.

Definitely. What I think is

the wider problem here is the fact

that parents do not take

responsibility. In their children

from viewing this material. It is so

easy to install an online computer

filter system. It is easy to put an

app on a child's mobile phone to

stop them accessing this material.

APPLAUSE

It was curiosity for you.

Taking it

to adults again, because that is a

whole other massive issue, hugely

important and worrying, but does

this change their expectations of

what young men expect from young

male

women, pornography?

I do not

believe it does. There are studies

coming out increasingly suggesting

that pornography viewership in men

can lead to more gender equality and

attitudes, better openness and

communication with their partners.

The positives of pornography?

Morning.

I went to a boys only

boarding school. The way the guys...

My mum told me to respect women. I

remember 70% of the boys, we had

cleaners who were women, the way

they treated them was appalling. If

you look at the background, the way

they talk about them, it was based

on the pornography they watched at

home. We had no access at school.

They will go home, fantasise, come

back to school and tell everyone. As

you grow up, in our 20s, they would

go into relationships, oh, my God,

this girl, she does not do this, she

does not have, for example, multiple

orgasms, like what they had grown up

to expect by watching pornography.

They ended up with numerous

relationships not because... When

you watch pornography, they do not

see the emotional side that happens

when you are having sex, it was all

about the act.

Another point, but

gentleman has raised in my mind, it

gives unrealistic expectations, but

in certain societies where sex is

taboo in female sexual expression

and sexuality is barely

acknowledged, this might be

something that allows someone in to

see that, yes, we have a sexuality

and we have a right...

That would be

marvellous if porn was anything like

that. Even today, we cannot talk

what is in the pornography, we

cannot talk about the body parts...

Sunday morning. We can talk about

the issues.

The problem is huge

numbers of people, mainly women,

have no idea what is in it.

20% of

the people who watch porn are women.

I suggest people look at the

descriptions of pornography online

for pornography you will do

streaming with, for instance, and it

is violent language against women,

the research shows more than half of

pornography has violence in it, like

slapping, that is quite interesting.

We will not find the lovely

pornography that will teach women

and men how to behave. There is some

research showing that even in

Southeast Asia now, there are young

boys watching pornography in special

cafes where they have pornography on

screens, creating very harmful

attitudes.

I would like to bring it

back, we touched on the issue of

simple porn addiction and sex

addiction, in psychological terms,

they do not exist, they are

diagnoses pushed by therapists who

seek to queue at them and they make

money. I liken porn addiction...

He

was addicted.

I likened the porn

addiction due to the gay...

You

believe it is nonsense?

Psychologists seem clear porn

addiction does not exist. There are

problematic behaviours around porn,

but no such thing as porn addiction.

There is research suggesting

religious people are much more

likely to be distressed by porn

usage. Jack described seeing Page 3

at age 13, this is that happens to

every boy, 12, 13, 11 hit puberty,

the arrival of your sexual awareness

that overtakes you, hormonal change

could you have no control over it.

If you are religious, brought up in

a religious society, go to an all

boys school, you are much more

likely to find this distressing and

worrying and not know how to deal

with it. As Rosie said, it comes

back to six education. In Jack's

case, it seems you come from a

religious background, it may have

shocked you a lot more -- sex

education.

We have not had a chance

to talk to Kelly. She is right

behind you?

Nice to meet you, Kelly.

That is a very interesting question.

I think one of the things that has

not been brought into this...

What

she is doing, is it morally wrong?

A

very good question. I think there

are effects of it which are wrong.

Yeah. I am not going to sit here and

condemn Kelly for doing the work you

do, Kelly, that is a choice you have

made. One of the things we need to

introduce into this debate that has

not been talked about...

Last word

and you have to move on.

The issue

of trafficking. There are people

like Kelly who have chosen to become

part of the porn industry, but 22%,

21-30,000,000 people who are

trafficked, it is for sexual

exploitation.

APPLAUSE

A big debate. Very, very important

debate to have.

You can join in all this

morning's debates by logging

on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

and following the link

to the online discussion.

Or you can tweet using

the hashtag #bbctbq.

Tell us what you think

about our last Big Question too.

Should there be licensed safe

places to take drugs?

And if you'd like to apply

to be in the audience

at a future show, you can email

[email protected].

We're in Southampton next Sunday,

Oxford on February 11th,

and Leicester the week after that.

Last week, Parliament debated

whether Britain should do more

to treat drug addiction as a health

issue, rather than

seeing it as a crime.

Ronnie Cowan, an SNP

Member of Parliament,

suggested drug consumption rooms

were part of the answer - supervised

places where illicit drugs could be

used under the supervision

of trained staff, as they are in

many other European countries.

There was a lot of support from MPs

across all parties, even though

the Government's Home Office

spokesperson was not

remotely convinced.

There's already a club on Teesside

where members can use

cannabis on the premises.

The local police are

apparently aware, but not,

concerned.

Should there be licensed safe

places to take drugs?

Where are you, Kirsten?

There you

are! How would it work? Supervised

drug consumption rooms are around

the whole world, about 100 of them,

they have existed for over 30 years.

Evidence for them is overwhelming.

What would happen is someone would

attend the service, like a health

service, with their own drugs, the

service does not provide them, and

inject the drug is under supervision

of trained staff and have access to

lots of other services and treatment

and goal setting meeting the

individual's needs.

They absolutely

save lives. They do save lives?

In

times when we have the highest rates

of drug-related deaths at the

moment, we should be looking at all

the evidence -based opportunities to

reduce deaths. They reduce the

incidence of blood-borne viruses

like hepatitis C and HIV and in

Glasgow where I am working at the

moment, there is a proposal for this

type of facility, particularly on

the back of an HIV outbreak at the

moment.

Do they legitimise the

taking of hard drugs? Is there a

sense of... This is one of the

criticisms, a kind of validation?

They do enable drug use. They enable

safe drug taking under the

supervision of staff so if someone

were to overdose on the premises

there's staff available to help that

person.

Rather than in a derelict

building somewhere?

Exactly. It is

often seen as a controversial

service. In actual fact we already

provide sterile injektable equipment

to people knowing they'll perhaps

inject in an unsafe unhygienic

environment. Providing a sterile,

safe viern it is huge step.

You make

it all sound really nice. I used her

win for -- her herion for 17 years.

I was shocked at the topic, a safe

place to use doctoring. I thought,

if that was me back in the day, I

would probably be dead. Now the

Government ace saying, it is OK to

do what you do.

They are not.

That's

what it represents. If you think of

the mind of addict, that is what it

is saying. It is OK now to do what

you're doing, carry on and not only

that, we'll make it comfortable for

you. It's very dangerous.

We're not

talking about people using in their

own home environments, we're talking

about some of the most vulnerable

and marginalised people in our

communities.

communities. They've no self-esteem.

What supervised injecting facilities

do is encourage people to come in in

a non-judgmental environment. To

connect with people in a unique way

that cannot be achieved by any other

service.

What you mean is anyone

addicted to drugs, it is back to our

definition of what is pornography.

What are drugs. Alcohol, the biggest

scourge of our society.

The World

Health Organisation found out, 90%

of people who use drugs do not use

drugs problematic. It is the 10% of

problematic drug users. Within that,

the most vulnerable, as you say. You

were really lucky to have a home to

use drugs in.

No, that was cut off.

There were years of homelessness

innocence after. That it was hard

enough waiting to see if you're

going to score. This place you'll go

to with drugs, other addicts waiting

to go to go in so they can pounce on

you. You call this safe.

I hear you.

It is anecdotal. Not evidence-based.

I'm former drug substance abuser.

People go in here, they are treated

as human beings. Their problems are

looked at. All the other issues that

are dealt with. It is a first line

for treatment. A first line for

treatment.

There is a support

service. The needles are clean?

Yeah.

The drugs aren't cut with

terrible things?

Nobody's ever died

in a drug consumption room. Nobody's

ever become infected with HIV. When

you used drugs, we were using really

dangerously. At that point in my

life, when I was 19, there was

nothing that would stop me doing

what I was doing. But what happened

is when I got into recovery, which

is what I needed, not everybody

needs that, it only works for 7% of

the people. The rest of my friends

went to prison. My partner died of

HIV. He would never have died of HIV

if he'd had the service that's

offered here. We've had 150 cases in

Glasgow, the most vulnerable people,

people without homes, are being

diagnosed with HIV. This is just,

it's unbelievable that this can

still be happening. And there is

such a simple solution to...

That

would have happened with our without

this.

Nobody's ever been diagnosed

or caught a blood born virus.

You

would get the minority. There's

still a majority out. There my

concern is this is money we're

talking about. You're talking about

prevention. I want to talk about

cure. Put money into, I work in a

rehabilitation centre.

This is not,

Karen, is this money well spent?

I

think what we would be saying, I'm

from Addaction, a drug and alcohol

charity, we deliver front line

services every day, drug consumption

rooms in an ideal world should be

part of a treatment system. It is a

method, it is really strong

evidence-based, about 30% of people

coming through drug consumption

rooms move into treatment which is

what we want. However, there are two

big problems in society. Money is

one. Drug and alcohol treatments

have had significant cuts, about

25-40%. And two, the political will

to do it. Actually, it's been shut

down.

I'm going to ask Chris about

the political will in just a second

being a distinguished former

Parliamentarian. Rather than being a

former distinguished

Parliamentarian. Quick points from

the audience. In front with the

beard. You've got a beard.

I'm a big

fan of the consumption room prop

posals. Drug addiction's been around

since the beginning of time. It

won't go away. The only way to

address is it common-sense

approaches.

Do you run the cannabis

club?

I do.

You have a lot of your

clients here today! LAUGHTER

Thank

you for the support. We've been open

14 months over that time we've found

out we have a lot of people from all

walks of life from 18-72.

Is it a

cannabis I might have smoked at

university or I might not have? Or

is it... Is it the stronger strains

now that we're hearing about?

The

stronger strains, the weaker

strains. Everything is available to

be consumed within the club. We

don't supply it. The members bring

their own. They are happy to pay for

it.

This is crazy. Isn't it?

Let me

take it across here to the lady

there with the blue shawl. Good

morning. What I wanted to say was

addiction

We know as a medical

person, I know as well, addiction,

some people are prone to addiction.

Whether its alcohol, drugs or

whatever. It is a medical problem.

We need to have these places more of

these places so that they can be

counselled. Get the support they

need if they do want to get rid of

it. Exactly the right thing, right

attitude to take.

Thank you. In the

white shirt. Hello. The lady in the

white shirt. Too many white shirts

going on here.

I want to come back

to the financial argument. Drug

consumption rooms can reduce the

pressures on emergency services and

add anythings to hospitals. They

will increase demand on the services

treatment services so people can

access support. One of the

difficulties we have is these are

funded through two different

budgets. You might be saving in one

element but that money won't are

realised to put in extra support

services. We need to look at the way

we commission our services and the

way budgets are held.

Chris, you

were a former chair had a select

committee? You looked at drugs

policy?

Yes.

We've been talking

about this for decades. People say

we need an entirely new approach.

Some people wand decriminalisation.

Some people are arguing for places

like this. What stops us from moving

in a more liberal direction? Is it

the media?

The report published in

2001 or 2002, we recommended safe

injecting places. We took evidence

and witnesses from Switzerland where

it has worked very well. In my view,

that's a no-brainer. You're talking

about chaotic drug users. Heroin

mainly. You can only establish a

point of contact. If they have the

will, offer them another option.

Once you've got them in a controlled

space, the point you made earlier

about making sure they don't consume

con Tam Nated drugs and that

happened a lot around here

incidentally, been quite a lot of

deaths from it. It is a strong one.

The other thing is that the don't

throw their needles all over the

park or down various streets for

children to pick up. Of course,

there's a point about Aids as well.

We recommended at the time it was a

no-brainer. Why isn't there the

political will because mass

hysteria's organised by certain

sections of media, led by the Daly

mail usually, whenever the subject

is broached. And politicians are

afraid of that. Since politicians

depend on votes for a living, they

are particularly vulnerable to that.

One of the things we recommended and

it was a very minor recommendation,

was downgrading cannabis from a

class A to a Class B drug. That was

based on the science. Nothing to do

with... When we did, the Home

Secretary accepted that. And did it.

And extraordinary hysteria broke out

on that one issue.

It is strange,

there was a whole generation of MPs

who kind of should have known what

they were talking about because they

were all people who had done it as

well!

Not me, Governor! I have never

even smoked a cigarette.

I think it

was on LBC they interviewed all the

Labour Party candidates. This he'd

all done it except for Jeremy

Corbyn.

And me!

The question about

this is the failure of the state.

Political parties come into power.

As soon as any political party

controls the state, they have an

inability to be able to deal with

this issue effectively. The good

judgment is overborn by the fact

they feel as running the stale they

can't allow this. This should have

been done years ago. It is a state

failure.

I live in Durham where the

Chief Inspector of Durham

constabulary Mike Barton set up a

checkpoint scheme to reduce

low-level crime in relation to

drugs. I've nothing to do with class

A or the police. I have me own

demons which I play the 5th

amendment on. He, and his staff,

want to reduce low-level crime with

drug abuse and drug addiction. I

don't wish to misquote him. He wants

to attack, get at the highly

organised criminal gangs, take the

money way from drug supply, which is

the life blood. Which is why they do

it.

Fiona, we're coming to the end

here. Obviously we're talking about

chaotic and problem users. But there

are chaotic user of alcohol and

problem users of alcohol. People

debate this, shoot all these

opinions. Some of the people refuse

to acknowledge the most dangerous

drug in society.

Which is alcohol.

Yeah. Just to get back to your point

They're called public houses, the

safe places.

Drug consumption rooms.

They're called my front room on a

Friday night as well!

Mike Barton

also wants, the Chief Constable, I'm

his community adviser, he wants

heroin assisted treatment. He wants

safe consumption rooms.

Pete, last

word. 30 seconds.

I was saying, my

concern is there's a lot of money

going into this, enabling, I'm

sorry, that's what I call it,

enabling someone to carry on in

they're diction. Put the money into

residential rehabilitation centres.

We have to leave it there. Thank you

all very much. Thank you. See you

next week.

Next week, we're in Southampton,

so do join us then.

But for now, it's goodbye

and have a great Sunday.