Episode 4 The Big Questions


Episode 4

Nicky Campbell presents from Northumbria Students' Union, Newcastle. The panel discuss whether the left has a problem with anti-Semitism and if porn is damaging to society.


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Transcript


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Today on The Big Questions,

anti-Semitism and the left,

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the true cost of porn,

and safe spaces to take drugs.

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APPLAUSE

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Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell.

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Welcome to The Big Questions.

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Today we're live from the Students'

Union at Northumbria University

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in Newcastle upon Tyne.

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Welcome, everybody,

to The Big Questions.

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APPLAUSE

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Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day

with this year's theme

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being the power of words.

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And words like anti-Semitic

and anti-Zionist have been

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particularly troubling

to the Labour Party over

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the past couple of years.

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Now, since the recent elections

to Labour's National

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Executive Committee,

there have been words

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bandied about the new head

of the Disputes Committee,

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Momentum director,

Christine Shawcroft.

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She's been criticised after she only

gave two cases involving

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anti-Semitism a warning last week.

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Does the left have a problem

with anti-Semitism?

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You left the Labour Party.

Why? Because I am half Jewish,

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married to a Jewish woman and we

have a Jewish son and we felt the

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Labour Party was no longer the place

that we thought it had been. We have

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been Labour voters our entire lives,

trade union members...

Where is your

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evidence?

It is a good question. A

lot of the debate about

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anti-Semitism is complex and I do

not expect everyone in the audience

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or at home to understand what can be

a really complex debate but it is

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not that complex if you boil it

down. I have brought along evidence.

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Always good to have evidence rather

than just opinions. Evidence put on

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social media by either Labour Party

members or Labour Party offices or

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even Labour Party elected

representatives. A Labour Party

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member, also, by the way, a member

of one of the groups that Naomi

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represents, Free Speech On Israel,

the Holocaust and the phoney 6

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million, I know the official version

regarding systematic...

That is

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not... That does not represent the

organisation.

That is evidence. A

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post from a Labour member.

One more.

Back to 2015, David Cameron is part

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of the Zionist elite group of morons

obliged to feet the Zionist Jew

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masters.

Come back on that. Whenever

we do any debate like this, it is so

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divisive, it sometimes turns into a

shout fest. I will try to be done in

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the middle. I want to give everyone

a fair shot. Accusations there, we

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have seen the social media stuff, it

is horrible, take it back to the

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central question, does the left have

a problem with anti-Semitism?

There

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is a problem with anti-Semitism in

our society, as there was a problem

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with rising racism of many different

kinds. The evidence shows Muslims

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are a much more vulnerable target

Alan Jews and the Roma gypsies are

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even more vulnerable -- more

vulnerable target than the dues.

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vulnerable target than the dues. 7%

of Brits have negative opinions

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about Jews, 40% have negative

opinions about Roma, 30% about

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Muslims. It is horrendous, rising

and terrifying, the right is on the

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rise.

What about the left?

I will

get into that. The problem we have

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on the left is that we are being

asked to redefine anti-Semitism. I

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am sure everyone knows what

anti-Semitism is, hostility,

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prejudice against Jewish people.

Allow me, if I may, focus on this as

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a question, if you say that I am not

in any way racist about someone's

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ethnicity or about Jewish people,

but I do not think the state of

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Israel should exist as it currently

exists, is that anti-Semitic?

It is

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not because Israel is not a person.

You can only be racist against an

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individual. I do not deny, however,

that much of the language some

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people ignorantly use...

Denying

self determination... On this

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particular point, denying self

determination...

No, why would it

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be? If I were to say about any other

group in the world, I am not sure,

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are they really are a nation? The

case of Jews, my four grandparents

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came from eastern Europe, Russia,

Poland, Germany, Ukraine, no

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connection with the Middle East,

many Jews lived in Middle Eastern

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countries, Arabic speaking Jews,

they share an Arabic culture, people

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in New York love bagels, are we a

nation?

That is debatable. It is not

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the Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi show.

I

will come back in a moment. And

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Sheila and Chris too. The notion

about saying the state of Israel

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does not have a right to exist...

I

did not say that. I said the right

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to self-determination is something

one can debate.

Is that

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anti-Semitism?

On the left... If you

want to wear a badge that says, I am

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not anti-Semitic, but, of all the

people in the world, I refuse to

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grant the rights and respect the

right of self-determination to the

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Jews alone, then wear the badge with

pride if that is where you are. That

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is what it is. It is no less than

that.

That is a mischaracterisation.

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It is really important. For people

watching at home, decent, British

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people who have not spent their

lives in the wars on the extreme

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left, this is confusing and it is

really confusing if you get someone

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who is Jewish to say, it is not

anti-Semitic to do X, Y, Z. It is

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important everyone watching

understands the voices of people

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like Naomi with her tiny group, they

represent an extremely...

I am the

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wrong kind of Jew, Saul.

Let me

carry on. I respect your right to

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have your view. Jews are clueless

group.

We are not all Zionists --

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Jews are a large group.

The Jewish

leadership council, the Chief Rabbi,

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liberal synagogues, reformed...

Let

us take it to the Labour Party. Is

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there not a parallel here, Anna

Turley? If you criticise Israel...

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None of this is criticising Israel.

This is where the line is, the

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criticism of Israel itself, where it

seeps into anti-Zionism,

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anti-Semitism. If I may, thank you.

Sorry.

I understand the emotive

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nature of all of this, of course. Is

it not the same, if you criticise

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Israel, it is not anti-Semitism? It

is perfectly legitimate to criticise

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Islam as a religion but it is not

Islamophobia. There is an absolute

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parallel.

I am heartbroken to hear

Saul and other members of the Jewish

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community who have lost faith in the

Labour Party. Over 100 years history

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of standing up to prejudice.

Are

they right to lose faith?

Our values

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have always been about tackling

prejudice, racism, making sure

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everyone has freedom of speech and

tolerance. I believe in those values

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and that is the kind of society I

want to build. I am heartbroken to

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see the rise of anti-Semitism. But I

do believe there is an issue on the

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left. There is no problem with

criticising Israel's domestic

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policy, foreign policy, settlements,

human rights. We are free and at

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liberty to criticise any government

around the world but we have to

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think carefully about the language

we use and that is what Holocaust

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Memorial Day is about because as

soon as you lift it out of criticism

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of government policy into

anti-Semitic tropes we have seen

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around wealthy Jew...

Controlling

the media. The banking dynasty. They

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are creeping back into social media.

What is anti-Zionism?

It is a

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difficult definition. If you are

believing the state of Israel, you

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are Zionist. Emily Thornberry said

Jeremy Corbyn believes in the right

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of Israel to exist. It is party

policy to believe in the two-state

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solution.

Do you believe in Israel's

right to exist?

But it can be used

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as a term of abuse.

If you believe

in Israel's right to exist and

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self-determination, are you a

Zionist, Chris?

I believe in its

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right to exist, you could have an

idea about whether the declaration

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was a good idea, but Israel is a

fact of life and we have to

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accept... I do think we have got to

the nub of the problem. Two issues

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become conflated, the abuse you find

trawling through the internet...

It

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does not take long to find.

And

discussion about... It is now one of

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the most right wing regimes that

Israel has ever had. In the process

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of setting up an apartheid state and

I think we ought to be allowed to

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talk about that.

APPLAUSE

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They have colonised the West Bank

illegally. They are beginning to

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ethnically cleanse east Jerusalem

and they have herded many of the

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Palestinians into Gaza. I have heard

plenty of Jewish people use the word

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apartheid state. Plenty of people in

Israel oppose what is going on.

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Those of us is not in Israel should

be a -- should be allowed to use the

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same terms without being accused of

anti-Semitism. The two most critical

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people in the House of Commons, most

critical about this, Harry Cohen,

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and another, also Jewish.

They call

them self hating Jews. The audience,

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right back with you, Sheila, in a

second, I will go round a few

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people. Good morning. Something

Chris Mullin said.

That accusation

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that Israel is an apartheid state,

minorities in Israel constitute

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nearly 20% of the population and

have exactly the same rights as

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Jews.

Sadly not true. I cannot live

in certain towns. They cannot drive

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on certain roads.

This is exactly

the kind of thing... The

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interruptions, they confirm the

truth and the questions that we are

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debating here today.

Why does it

confirm the truth?

Saying something

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people like Chris Mullin and Naomi

disagree with, they interrupt

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straightaway. My son has lived in

Israel for over a year, he has lived

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effectively in an Arab section,

generally Arab because it is an

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older section, mixture of Christian

Arabs, Muslims, Jews...

Taking it

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back. Does the left have a problem

with anti-Semitism?

Yes.

I would

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like to say the Labour Party in its

current form can be the most

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critical government of Israel's

apartheid policies against the

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Palestinians and this clearly scares

the pro-Israeli advocates who do not

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believe there is an issue. From my

time in Palestine, I was appalled at

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the way Palestinians were treated at

the hands of the Israeli government

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and the soldiers. I witnessed and I

spoke to mothers forced to give

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birth at Israeli checkpoints, 350

Palestinian children currently

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illegally incarcerated in Israeli

prisons against the UN Charter. I am

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a lawyer, I have read the Geneva

convection, it forbids Israel from

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using collective punishment -- the

Geneva Convention. How uncomfortable

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does it make you feel? They made me

feel uncomfortable. I'm not denying

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there was a problem with

anti-Semitism. However, the Home

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Affairs Committee report released

recently stated that the majority of

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anti-Semitism is coming from far

right wing groups and behaviour

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associated with that. On one hand,

anti-Zionism, people say it comes

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from the left, anti-Semitism from

the right, you want to come in,

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Sheila? Getting away from the state

of Israel, anti-Semitism has been on

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the left for a long time, in all

political parties in this country

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and generally amongst the populace.

1905, that aliens act was introduced

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because the social Democratic

Federation in the east and rising up

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against what they saw as people

coming into the country, some people

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say Karl Marx showed anti-Semitism.

I do not want to concentrate on the

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left because it is everywhere but we

need to understand the language and

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the stereotypes are absolutely in

Jewish history. In the 80s, I was in

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a group against anti-Semitism

because of anti-Semitism in the

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women's liberation movement, there

was a representation of Israeli

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soldiers as blond haired and

jackbooted, I do not want to talk

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about the exact accusations of now,

but it makes no sense to try to not

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look at Andy -- at anti-Semitism in

the Labour Party. We do not expect

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it on the left.

I would not in any

way describe myself as a friend of

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Israel, I am a supporter of the

Palestinian cause. As an antifascist

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campaigner over the decades, I would

say back in the 80s, anti-Semitism

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was very clearly a far right

phenomenon and it was in the Tory

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party and in sections of the left as

well and communist and so on. In the

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last few years, and you can monitor

it on social media, that

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anti-Semitism has shifted left and

that... I do not know what is

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happening in the Labour Party, but

last year, people were identifying

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themselves as supporters of Jeremy

Corbyn before the election, there

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were a lot of anti-Semitic tweeting

from people identifying themselves

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as voters of Jeremy Corbyn. They may

be confused. Not everyone backing

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him is a socialist and so on.

Absolutely, there has been a shift

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from the far right to the left of

these ideas.

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In terms of issues on anti-Zionism

and Zionism and the right of states

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to exist n international law there's

no such right. The state of Israel

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does

Have the right to exist,

France, there's no such right

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enshrined in international law. It

is a problem on the left. I've been

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campaigning on this issue for a

number of years.

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number of years. I believe whilst

the institute for Jewish policy

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research says the issue on the left

there is broadly a denial

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anti-Semitism is an issue. There's a

dismissive attitude towards people

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who raise this. Not treating it with

the sensitivity it needs. The left

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really need to educate themselves on

how to recognise and tackle this

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issue as best as possible and be

proper allies to our Jewish

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compatriots.

Can we talk about the

profession of racism. Anti-Semitism

0:17:300:17:37

is a form of racism. What frightens

me as a form of due.

It is not about

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being a due. Not a matter of birth,

not a political view. You

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interrupted me so I'll interrupt

you.

Do not deny her ethnicity.

It

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has nothing to do with it.

Jewish

people need to be very wary of

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rising racism. It affects them

alongside all other victims of

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vulnerable minorities. I want to

look at the way historically dues

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have approached this terrifying

racism and this is over centuries,

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dating back to medieval

Christianity, a lot of it. We had a

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choice at the end of the 19th

Century. Were dues going to adopt a

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new model, political Zionism, which

was very much a minority ideology at

0:18:240:18:30

the end of the 19th Century. Or were

we going to decide we would fight

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alongside others who fight injustice

in society. There was a split. The

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Zionist movement decided to look for

an imperial patron to find a state

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where dues could go...

We haven't

time for the whole narrative.

People

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need to under ginned there is an

extensive movement, a socialist Bunt

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movement, a mass party in Poland.

People died fighting the Nazis as

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anti-Zionists. When people use the

fact dues suffered in the past to

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justify what Israel does to the

Palestinians. They have a right

0:19:070:19:13

toself determination. Israeli racism

needs to be challenged.

Excuse me.

0:19:130:19:18

While we haven't the time in this

debate, we hear this phrase, the

0:19:180:19:24

word Holocaust applied to what

happened to the Palestinian people.

0:19:240:19:28

I didn't say that.

You see it all

the time. Does anyone say that's an

0:19:280:19:33

appropriate word? Does anyone here

say that's appropriate?

No,

It is

0:19:330:19:41

deliberately insulting and demeaning

to Jewish people?

0:19:410:19:48

to Jewish people?

Holocaust denial

interpretations...

This is against

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people from...

Naomi. Whatever you

think about the plight of

0:19:520:19:59

Palestinian people by any

international definition it is

0:19:590:20:00

nowhere near being a Holocaust but

people use the word all the time.

It

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is really depressing in any debate

around Israel and Palestine, the

0:20:050:20:11

language is inappropriate. Used to

historical victim status is used to

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justify against the Israeli state to

say they are just doing this,

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they're justified because of this,

they use it as an excuse to carry

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out what they are doing. This is

anti-Semiticic language. We are

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discussing a really sensitive issue.

We have to be very thoughtful, take

0:20:310:20:35

the situation as it is and apply the

highest rigorous standards of

0:20:350:20:40

looking at the Israeli state as we

do around the world.

Do we do that?

0:20:400:20:45

Some people do, no doubt. There is a

small problem on the left. I think

0:20:450:20:50

it is rather less than the problem

on the ride and perhaps society as a

0:20:500:20:53

whole. There are two new dimensions

in the last few years or in the case

0:20:530:20:59

of digital media. The rise of

digital media make it easy to

0:20:590:21:08

express prejudice, including

anti-Semitism. The second factor, it

0:21:080:21:12

has only arisen in the last three or

four years, there are some on the

0:21:120:21:17

right of the political spectrum who

see this as yet another stick with

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which to bash Jeremy Corbyn. You saw

it...

Chris, let me come in there.

0:21:210:21:31

It is a really key point. We have an

ethnic minority, dues represent 0.7%

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of the population in this country.

199.7% of people in the population

0:21:380:21:44

are not dues. Most people have never

met one. That tiny ethnic minority

0:21:440:21:49

puts up its hand and the process a

profoundly disturbing and

0:21:490:21:56

uncomfortable. The people I thought

were on my side, I'm hearing some of

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those voices, not all, but some of

those voices that are saying and

0:22:000:22:05

doing things which are expressly

anti-Semetic. What you would expect

0:22:050:22:10

there, how you would expect the left

to respond with any other ethnicity

0:22:100:22:15

is go back to anti-racist first

principles. Listen, think about the

0:22:150:22:20

language and make sure you use the

MacPherson principles about treating

0:22:200:22:25

something as if it is a racist

incident.

That's not being applied?

0:22:250:22:30

No, what's happened there, Chris is

a great example of it there, saying

0:22:300:22:35

when dues like me stand up and say

there is anti-Semitism coming from

0:22:350:22:39

the left, you don't stop, listen,

think about the language and take it

0:22:390:22:44

as face value, you say we're lying

because we want to do down and bring

0:22:440:22:47

down Jeremy Corbyn and the left.

Would you do that about any other

0:22:470:22:51

ethnic group? I think not.

If it was

happening with any other, we would.

0:22:510:22:56

We have to leave it there. I've been

doing debates like this, on this

0:22:560:23:01

topic for 30 years. There will be

another chance. Thank you all very

0:23:010:23:04

much.

0:23:040:23:05

If you have something

to say about that debate,

0:23:050:23:07

log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

and follow the link to where you can

0:23:070:23:10

join in the discussion online.

0:23:100:23:12

Or contribute on Twitter.

0:23:120:23:15

We're also debating live this

morning at Northumbria

0:23:150:23:16

University's Students' Union,

is porn damaging to society?

0:23:160:23:22

And should there be licensed safe

places to take drugs?

0:23:220:23:26

So, get tweeting or emailing

on those topics now,

0:23:260:23:29

or send us any other ideas

or thoughts you may

0:23:290:23:31

have about the show.

0:23:310:23:34

You might suppose the use of online

pornography is largely confined

0:23:370:23:39

to the privacy of people's homes,

but more than 40% of businesses have

0:23:390:23:43

to regularly reprimand a high

percentage of their employees

0:23:430:23:48

for watching porn at work.

0:23:480:23:50

So, it's not just in the Houses of

Parliament that these things go on.

0:23:500:23:54

Britain ranks second

in the world for traffic to one

0:23:540:23:57

of the world's leading porn sites,

only beaten by the USA.

0:23:570:24:00

I'll spare you the details

of the precise types of porn

0:24:000:24:04

Brits like to watch,

but the words lesbian, mothers,

0:24:040:24:08

step sister and mature

feature heavily in the most

0:24:080:24:13

searched for sites.

0:24:130:24:14

Is porn damaging to society?

0:24:140:24:22

Sheila Jeffreys from Object scop

women are not Sex Objects. Damaging

0:24:220:24:27

to society. Adults watching,

partaking in porn, it is a free

0:24:270:24:33

society. It is part of the whole

march of sexual emancipation and

0:24:330:24:36

liberation?

Pornography is not a

private pursued people get up to in

0:24:360:24:41

their bedrooms. It as huge and

massive industry. Back in the 1970s

0:24:410:24:45

I was in the first anti-pornography

group in this country. It's changed

0:24:450:24:49

hugely since then. Got more and more

violent. Pornography is men's free

0:24:490:24:54

speech. They speak with each other

through the harm they do to women's

0:24:540:24:58

body. Women in pornography have to

take painkillers, mussel relaxants.

0:24:580:25:06

It affects the women in it. I see it

as a form of violence against those

0:25:060:25:10

women. It has huge effects on

society in general. In primary

0:25:100:25:15

school we've a massive amount of

sexual assault from boys on girls.

0:25:150:25:20

That wasn't happening before. In

Parliament, it is affecting

0:25:200:25:25

democracy. Women MPs are having a

huge amount of sexual abuse against

0:25:250:25:29

them. Diane ablot got one letter in

green pen a week. She now has

0:25:290:25:34

thousands and thousands of racists

but also I'vically viciously sexist,

0:25:340:25:39

including rape and death threats

towards herself. The state of women

0:25:390:25:44

is enormously harmful.

It would be

discourteous of me not to take your

0:25:440:25:51

point at this particular as a porn

porn actress. Kelly. When Sheila

0:25:510:26:00

started your hand went up.

The part

Sheila was saying about the abuse of

0:26:000:26:06

the girls in the industry. Can I ask

have you been in the industry

0:26:060:26:11

yourself, Sheila?

No I haven't. I do

know women who have, quite a few.

0:26:110:26:15

They've talked to me about it.

Being

in the industry, if you haven't been

0:26:150:26:20

in it yourself you don't know what

goes on in there. There's no need to

0:26:200:26:24

take painkillers.

Is the it

degrading?

Only if it was you

0:26:240:26:29

wouldn't be in the industry, would

you?

Are people treated respectfully

0:26:290:26:33

within that?

They are, yes. You've

got your boundaries, safe words.

Has

0:26:330:26:39

it any damaging effect on people who

watch it?

No. Back in the eighties

0:26:390:26:46

and nineties, it wasn't free. So it

wasn't that damaging to society, or

0:26:460:26:51

not at all. Now it is readily

available on the free porn porn

0:26:510:26:55

sites. Porn porn in itself isn't

damaging, it is the free porn porn

0:26:550:27:01

sites which means it gets into the

wrong hands that is making it

0:27:010:27:05

damaging because it is getting into

the wrong hands.

Do you think people

0:27:050:27:10

are too young watching it? Rosy, you

have astudied this. Is it degrading,

0:27:100:27:18

damaging bad for society?

I don't

believe it is. It has driven a huge

0:27:180:27:24

technological advancement. It has

helped drive internet, Wye if I,

0:27:240:27:31

DVD, importantographers are often

the first people to take advantage

0:27:310:27:35

of these new technologies, making

sure they can be rolled out into

0:27:350:27:39

wider society use. That's one major

advantage of it.

It is a secondary

0:27:390:27:43

effect, isn't it?

The way producers

utilise...

Let's talk about people.

0:27:430:27:51

Porn and people.

Degradation is a

hugely subjective term. It is not up

0:27:510:27:57

to anybody else to tell people what

they should and shouldn't find

0:27:570:28:02

degrading. It is up to the

individual to decide what their

0:28:020:28:06

reaction is to what they are

viewing. They can then choose to

0:28:060:28:12

accept it, reject it, not view it if

they don't want to and take personal

0:28:120:28:17

responsibility for that are

viewership.

There's not a lot of

0:28:170:28:20

choice. Women do not chose to be

affected by pornography. The

0:28:200:28:25

children in school. Young girls who

have to do anal sex. One fifth of

0:28:250:28:30

young people under 25 do that. The

women find it very, very painful.

0:28:300:28:34

They do not wish to do it. It is

constructing sexual practice, the

0:28:340:28:40

status of women, the abuse women

get. It is not just about private

0:28:400:28:43

choice. We have to look at how this

extraordinary industry, a propaganda

0:28:430:28:49

of woman hatred, is what I call it.

Carry on Jerry.

I often here this

0:28:490:28:57

from anti-porn advocates. People try

anal sex.

If people are offended by

0:28:570:29:03

some of the terms we are using.

We'll try to proceed with a Mody

0:29:030:29:11

comof BBC censorship. In what way is

it good for society, pornography?

0:29:110:29:16

Before I jump on that, can I say,

I've, my book, I've dealt with

0:29:160:29:23

object. They present themselves as a

women's human rights organisation.

0:29:230:29:29

Actually, Object were brought to my

attention by a friend who was is a

0:29:290:29:33

stripper. These women have turned up

to our workplace and started

0:29:330:29:37

screaming abuse at us as we go to

work. Now they are lobbying Hackney

0:29:370:29:43

and Tower Hamlets council to close

down our workplace. They stay they

0:29:430:29:48

are stopping us being abused. They

refuse to speak to us.

Object?

They

0:29:480:29:58

do not engage with women in the

industry has they claim to.

You

0:29:580:30:02

believe they are bogus in that

respect? What are the positives of

0:30:020:30:06

porn?

In terms of the evidence, then

absolutely, the evidence

0:30:060:30:12

overwhelmingly suggests porn has

overall been beneficial to society

0:30:120:30:17

rather than harmful. So,

notwithstanding Sheila's anecdotal

0:30:170:30:22

comments on children abusing each

other in playgrounds and that kind

0:30:220:30:26

of thing... ...

5,500 sexual assault

over three years.

Though coincides

0:30:260:30:35

with a steep decline in the West and

Britain and in America of violent

0:30:350:30:39

crime and sex Sewell violence. In

America, sexual violence has

0:30:390:30:45

declined according to FBI stats.

0:30:450:30:51

The House of Commons committee

looked at sexual assault in schools

0:30:510:30:57

and did make the connection with

pornography in terms of the sexual

0:30:570:31:01

practice with an organ we will not

speak of, the research on that does

0:31:010:31:07

say the boys themselves say it was

pornography that made them do it and

0:31:070:31:09

it is enormously harmful to the

girls.

There is quite a bit of

0:31:090:31:13

evidence. These studies are very

politicised...

I don't think so.

0:31:130:31:19

This is not a problem with

pornography, this is a problem with

0:31:190:31:22

the failings of our sexual education

system.

0:31:220:31:24

APPLAUSE

People are not given...

To navigate

0:31:240:31:31

the current sexual landscape.

Does

it give young men, for example, a

0:31:310:31:36

certain view of women?

No.

In the

audience, good morning.

Is it

0:31:360:31:43

damaging to society. Sex is a form

of human expression. What is more

0:31:430:31:47

damaging is not the fact... Since

man could scrawl on cave walls,

0:31:470:31:52

there has been pornography. Look at

the Elgin marbles...

Way before

0:31:520:31:59

that.

What is more damaging as

people telling people what their

0:31:590:32:05

morality should be.

I think we are

discussing the personal side of

0:32:050:32:11

pornography and what you want to

choose as an adult. A bit at the

0:32:110:32:16

moment on Facebook of a two-year-old

who approaches Alexa, the machine

0:32:160:32:21

that tells you what is happening in

your house, he says to the machine,

0:32:210:32:27

where is my game? He names a game,

Alexa assumes he has asked Phil

0:32:270:32:32

porn...

We are talking about adults.

That is how pervasive it has become,

0:32:320:32:40

people who are not expecting it, not

looking for it, they can be affected

0:32:400:32:44

by it. We need to look at how we can

control it as a society.

Morning.

0:32:440:32:51

One of the problems is, I am not

against pornography per se, but one

0:32:510:32:56

of the things I would like to say

and maybe ask you because you are in

0:32:560:33:02

the porn industry, do you think it

gives young women in particular an

0:33:020:33:05

absolutely impossible ideal to look

up to because most women do not look

0:33:050:33:14

like porn stars and are they

aspiring to do so and is it

0:33:140:33:17

damaging?

No. Each to their own. I

didn't come into this industry

0:33:170:33:24

because I wanted to be like anybody

else. I am me, I work as me, I'll

0:33:240:33:32

come out and I am back to me. I'm

not aspiring to have people looking

0:33:320:33:36

like me.

You do not need to answer,

has it affected your relationships,

0:33:360:33:42

personal relationships? Your

emotional life? And your sex life?

0:33:420:33:46

It has made everything better.

I

would say accusations are thrown at

0:33:460:33:55

porn, but the rest of the media is

worse.

0:33:550:34:02

worse. In porn, you will see lots of

different bodies...

What is porn?

0:34:040:34:09

The gentleman behind me pointed out

porn has been around the tens of

0:34:090:34:15

thousands of years. There is an old

saying, what I like is erotica, what

0:34:150:34:20

you like is porn. It is a pejorative

term for erotica.

You work porn

0:34:200:34:26

addict until you had the dialogue

with God -- you were. Jesus helped

0:34:260:34:34

you.

It was in my early teens when I

experienced addiction to porn. My

0:34:340:34:38

first exposure was at that age of

eight. We are talking about adults,

0:34:380:34:42

you say, but that average age of

first exposure to adult material is

0:34:420:34:47

11. I think... That is probably an

old statistic.

Tell us about your

0:34:470:34:54

addiction.

It started with a Page 3

in a newspaper, we had an art

0:34:540:35:00

project in school, doing

papier-mache...

Is that porn?

It is

0:35:000:35:05

pornographic. It was a great way for

me, it awakened a curiosity in me, I

0:35:050:35:10

had never seen images like that

before. I was 13 years old when I

0:35:100:35:14

had that first experience and I

began to explore online and very

0:35:140:35:21

quickly the things I was looking at

became more extreme. I realised that

0:35:210:35:28

what started as curiosity began to

have a hold on my life, I reached a

0:35:280:35:31

point where I was no longer

something that I might do if I had a

0:35:310:35:37

bit of spare time.

Every day?

Every

spare moment I had. When I did not

0:35:370:35:42

have a spare moment, more often than

not, I was thinking about, when can

0:35:420:35:47

I grab a moment? Back in the days

when you had one computer in the

0:35:470:35:51

house.

There was a moment when you

felt like you were having a dialogue

0:35:510:35:55

with God?

I was 17, at a large youth

camp, 10,000 young people, there was

0:35:550:36:02

a speaker, I cannot remember much of

what he said, but the one thing that

0:36:020:36:06

stuck in my mind is he looked out

into the crowd, I felt like he was

0:36:060:36:12

looking at me, he probably wasn't,

as a 17-year-old lad, very insecure,

0:36:120:36:17

I had been feeling like this thing

that was going on in my life was not

0:36:170:36:21

good for me.

Made a connection?

He

shouted out, God can see it, I can

0:36:210:36:29

see it, and I was terrified because

he scared the life out of me and I

0:36:290:36:33

thought he could see this thing I

had been feeling ashamed of. He

0:36:330:36:38

called for people to stand and to

receive prayer. The various things,

0:36:380:36:43

addictions...

Did you look at any

porn after that?

You said you were a

0:36:430:36:50

virgin until you got married and you

felt guilty about the prospect of

0:36:500:36:55

premarital sex so your addiction to

porn is steeped in religious guilt.

0:36:550:37:03

That was cognitive dissonance in

your life, do you think that is the

0:37:030:37:06

point?

I have the utmost sympathy

for your story and I completely

0:37:060:37:11

understand that for some

individuals, pornography can disrupt

0:37:110:37:16

their lives and I definitely

recognise that.

Background is

0:37:160:37:20

relevant.

Definitely.

Social

context.

Definitely. What I think is

0:37:200:37:27

the wider problem here is the fact

that parents do not take

0:37:270:37:31

responsibility. In their children

from viewing this material. It is so

0:37:310:37:34

easy to install an online computer

filter system. It is easy to put an

0:37:340:37:43

app on a child's mobile phone to

stop them accessing this material.

0:37:430:37:47

APPLAUSE

It was curiosity for you.

Taking it

0:37:470:37:52

to adults again, because that is a

whole other massive issue, hugely

0:37:520:37:57

important and worrying, but does

this change their expectations of

0:37:570:38:00

what young men expect from young

male

women, pornography?

I do not

0:38:000:38:05

believe it does. There are studies

coming out increasingly suggesting

0:38:050:38:10

that pornography viewership in men

can lead to more gender equality and

0:38:100:38:18

attitudes, better openness and

communication with their partners.

0:38:180:38:20

The positives of pornography?

Morning.

I went to a boys only

0:38:200:38:26

boarding school. The way the guys...

My mum told me to respect women. I

0:38:260:38:35

remember 70% of the boys, we had

cleaners who were women, the way

0:38:350:38:39

they treated them was appalling. If

you look at the background, the way

0:38:390:38:43

they talk about them, it was based

on the pornography they watched at

0:38:430:38:47

home. We had no access at school.

They will go home, fantasise, come

0:38:470:38:51

back to school and tell everyone. As

you grow up, in our 20s, they would

0:38:510:38:58

go into relationships, oh, my God,

this girl, she does not do this, she

0:38:580:39:05

does not have, for example, multiple

orgasms, like what they had grown up

0:39:050:39:10

to expect by watching pornography.

They ended up with numerous

0:39:100:39:15

relationships not because... When

you watch pornography, they do not

0:39:150:39:18

see the emotional side that happens

when you are having sex, it was all

0:39:180:39:23

about the act.

Another point, but

gentleman has raised in my mind, it

0:39:230:39:28

gives unrealistic expectations, but

in certain societies where sex is

0:39:280:39:36

taboo in female sexual expression

and sexuality is barely

0:39:360:39:39

acknowledged, this might be

something that allows someone in to

0:39:390:39:43

see that, yes, we have a sexuality

and we have a right...

That would be

0:39:430:39:50

marvellous if porn was anything like

that. Even today, we cannot talk

0:39:500:39:54

what is in the pornography, we

cannot talk about the body parts...

0:39:540:39:57

Sunday morning. We can talk about

the issues.

The problem is huge

0:39:570:40:04

numbers of people, mainly women,

have no idea what is in it.

20% of

0:40:040:40:10

the people who watch porn are women.

I suggest people look at the

0:40:100:40:14

descriptions of pornography online

for pornography you will do

0:40:140:40:18

streaming with, for instance, and it

is violent language against women,

0:40:180:40:25

the research shows more than half of

pornography has violence in it, like

0:40:250:40:29

slapping, that is quite interesting.

We will not find the lovely

0:40:290:40:33

pornography that will teach women

and men how to behave. There is some

0:40:330:40:36

research showing that even in

Southeast Asia now, there are young

0:40:360:40:40

boys watching pornography in special

cafes where they have pornography on

0:40:400:40:45

screens, creating very harmful

attitudes.

I would like to bring it

0:40:450:40:50

back, we touched on the issue of

simple porn addiction and sex

0:40:500:40:56

addiction, in psychological terms,

they do not exist, they are

0:40:560:41:00

diagnoses pushed by therapists who

seek to queue at them and they make

0:41:000:41:03

money. I liken porn addiction...

He

was addicted.

I likened the porn

0:41:030:41:13

addiction due to the gay...

You

believe it is nonsense?

0:41:130:41:22

Psychologists seem clear porn

addiction does not exist. There are

0:41:220:41:27

problematic behaviours around porn,

but no such thing as porn addiction.

0:41:270:41:32

There is research suggesting

religious people are much more

0:41:320:41:35

likely to be distressed by porn

usage. Jack described seeing Page 3

0:41:350:41:40

at age 13, this is that happens to

every boy, 12, 13, 11 hit puberty,

0:41:400:41:46

the arrival of your sexual awareness

that overtakes you, hormonal change

0:41:460:41:53

could you have no control over it.

If you are religious, brought up in

0:41:530:41:58

a religious society, go to an all

boys school, you are much more

0:41:580:42:01

likely to find this distressing and

worrying and not know how to deal

0:42:010:42:04

with it. As Rosie said, it comes

back to six education. In Jack's

0:42:040:42:10

case, it seems you come from a

religious background, it may have

0:42:100:42:14

shocked you a lot more -- sex

education.

We have not had a chance

0:42:140:42:20

to talk to Kelly. She is right

behind you?

Nice to meet you, Kelly.

0:42:200:42:26

That is a very interesting question.

I think one of the things that has

0:42:260:42:32

not been brought into this...

What

she is doing, is it morally wrong?

A

0:42:320:42:36

very good question. I think there

are effects of it which are wrong.

0:42:360:42:43

Yeah. I am not going to sit here and

condemn Kelly for doing the work you

0:42:430:42:48

do, Kelly, that is a choice you have

made. One of the things we need to

0:42:480:42:52

introduce into this debate that has

not been talked about...

Last word

0:42:520:42:55

and you have to move on.

The issue

of trafficking. There are people

0:42:550:43:00

like Kelly who have chosen to become

part of the porn industry, but 22%,

0:43:000:43:07

21-30,000,000 people who are

trafficked, it is for sexual

0:43:070:43:11

exploitation.

APPLAUSE

0:43:110:43:14

A big debate. Very, very important

debate to have.

0:43:140:43:20

You can join in all this

morning's debates by logging

0:43:200:43:22

on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

and following the link

0:43:220:43:24

to the online discussion.

0:43:240:43:25

Or you can tweet using

the hashtag #bbctbq.

0:43:250:43:27

Tell us what you think

about our last Big Question too.

0:43:270:43:30

Should there be licensed safe

places to take drugs?

0:43:300:43:32

And if you'd like to apply

to be in the audience

0:43:320:43:36

at a future show, you can email

[email protected]

0:43:360:43:39

We're in Southampton next Sunday,

Oxford on February 11th,

0:43:390:43:41

and Leicester the week after that.

0:43:410:43:44

Last week, Parliament debated

whether Britain should do more

0:43:480:43:50

to treat drug addiction as a health

issue, rather than

0:43:500:43:52

seeing it as a crime.

0:43:520:43:56

Ronnie Cowan, an SNP

Member of Parliament,

0:43:560:43:58

suggested drug consumption rooms

were part of the answer - supervised

0:43:580:44:02

places where illicit drugs could be

used under the supervision

0:44:020:44:04

of trained staff, as they are in

many other European countries.

0:44:040:44:08

There was a lot of support from MPs

across all parties, even though

0:44:080:44:11

the Government's Home Office

spokesperson was not

0:44:110:44:13

remotely convinced.

0:44:130:44:16

There's already a club on Teesside

where members can use

0:44:160:44:18

cannabis on the premises.

0:44:180:44:20

The local police are

apparently aware, but not,

0:44:200:44:26

concerned.

0:44:260:44:28

Should there be licensed safe

places to take drugs?

0:44:280:44:32

Where are you, Kirsten?

There you

are! How would it work? Supervised

0:44:320:44:42

drug consumption rooms are around

the whole world, about 100 of them,

0:44:420:44:48

they have existed for over 30 years.

Evidence for them is overwhelming.

0:44:480:44:53

What would happen is someone would

attend the service, like a health

0:44:530:44:57

service, with their own drugs, the

service does not provide them, and

0:44:570:45:01

inject the drug is under supervision

of trained staff and have access to

0:45:010:45:07

lots of other services and treatment

and goal setting meeting the

0:45:070:45:13

individual's needs.

They absolutely

save lives. They do save lives?

In

0:45:130:45:18

times when we have the highest rates

of drug-related deaths at the

0:45:180:45:23

moment, we should be looking at all

the evidence -based opportunities to

0:45:230:45:26

reduce deaths. They reduce the

incidence of blood-borne viruses

0:45:260:45:31

like hepatitis C and HIV and in

Glasgow where I am working at the

0:45:310:45:35

moment, there is a proposal for this

type of facility, particularly on

0:45:350:45:39

the back of an HIV outbreak at the

moment.

Do they legitimise the

0:45:390:45:44

taking of hard drugs? Is there a

sense of... This is one of the

0:45:440:45:48

criticisms, a kind of validation?

0:45:480:45:53

They do enable drug use. They enable

safe drug taking under the

0:45:530:45:58

supervision of staff so if someone

were to overdose on the premises

0:45:580:46:03

there's staff available to help that

person.

Rather than in a derelict

0:46:030:46:07

building somewhere?

Exactly. It is

often seen as a controversial

0:46:070:46:10

service. In actual fact we already

provide sterile injektable equipment

0:46:100:46:18

to people knowing they'll perhaps

inject in an unsafe unhygienic

0:46:180:46:23

environment. Providing a sterile,

safe viern it is huge step.

You make

0:46:230:46:30

it all sound really nice. I used her

win for -- her herion for 17 years.

0:46:300:46:48

I was shocked at the topic, a safe

place to use doctoring. I thought,

0:46:480:46:53

if that was me back in the day, I

would probably be dead. Now the

0:46:530:46:57

Government ace saying, it is OK to

do what you do.

They are not.

That's

0:46:570:47:01

what it represents. If you think of

the mind of addict, that is what it

0:47:010:47:05

is saying. It is OK now to do what

you're doing, carry on and not only

0:47:050:47:10

that, we'll make it comfortable for

you. It's very dangerous.

We're not

0:47:100:47:15

talking about people using in their

own home environments, we're talking

0:47:150:47:19

about some of the most vulnerable

and marginalised people in our

0:47:190:47:23

communities.

0:47:230:47:28

communities. They've no self-esteem.

What supervised injecting facilities

0:47:310:47:37

do is encourage people to come in in

a non-judgmental environment. To

0:47:370:47:42

connect with people in a unique way

that cannot be achieved by any other

0:47:420:47:46

service.

What you mean is anyone

addicted to drugs, it is back to our

0:47:460:47:51

definition of what is pornography.

What are drugs. Alcohol, the biggest

0:47:510:47:57

scourge of our society.

The World

Health Organisation found out, 90%

0:47:570:48:03

of people who use drugs do not use

drugs problematic. It is the 10% of

0:48:030:48:08

problematic drug users. Within that,

the most vulnerable, as you say. You

0:48:080:48:12

were really lucky to have a home to

use drugs in.

No, that was cut off.

0:48:120:48:18

There were years of homelessness

innocence after. That it was hard

0:48:180:48:23

enough waiting to see if you're

going to score. This place you'll go

0:48:230:48:28

to with drugs, other addicts waiting

to go to go in so they can pounce on

0:48:280:48:35

you. You call this safe.

I hear you.

It is anecdotal. Not evidence-based.

0:48:350:48:46

I'm former drug substance abuser.

People go in here, they are treated

0:48:460:48:49

as human beings. Their problems are

looked at. All the other issues that

0:48:490:48:53

are dealt with. It is a first line

for treatment. A first line for

0:48:530:48:58

treatment.

There is a support

service. The needles are clean?

0:48:580:49:02

Yeah.

The drugs aren't cut with

terrible things?

Nobody's ever died

0:49:020:49:09

in a drug consumption room. Nobody's

ever become infected with HIV. When

0:49:090:49:15

you used drugs, we were using really

dangerously. At that point in my

0:49:150:49:19

life, when I was 19, there was

nothing that would stop me doing

0:49:190:49:22

what I was doing. But what happened

is when I got into recovery, which

0:49:220:49:30

is what I needed, not everybody

needs that, it only works for 7% of

0:49:300:49:36

the people. The rest of my friends

went to prison. My partner died of

0:49:360:49:41

HIV. He would never have died of HIV

if he'd had the service that's

0:49:410:49:46

offered here. We've had 150 cases in

Glasgow, the most vulnerable people,

0:49:460:49:54

people without homes, are being

diagnosed with HIV. This is just,

0:49:540:49:59

it's unbelievable that this can

still be happening. And there is

0:49:590:50:02

such a simple solution to...

That

would have happened with our without

0:50:020:50:06

this.

Nobody's ever been diagnosed

or caught a blood born virus.

You

0:50:060:50:15

would get the minority. There's

still a majority out. There my

0:50:150:50:18

concern is this is money we're

talking about. You're talking about

0:50:180:50:21

prevention. I want to talk about

cure. Put money into, I work in a

0:50:210:50:28

rehabilitation centre.

This is not,

Karen, is this money well spent?

I

0:50:280:50:32

think what we would be saying, I'm

from Addaction, a drug and alcohol

0:50:320:50:39

charity, we deliver front line

services every day, drug consumption

0:50:390:50:44

rooms in an ideal world should be

part of a treatment system. It is a

0:50:440:50:48

method, it is really strong

evidence-based, about 30% of people

0:50:480:50:55

coming through drug consumption

rooms move into treatment which is

0:50:550:50:57

what we want. However, there are two

big problems in society. Money is

0:50:570:51:01

one. Drug and alcohol treatments

have had significant cuts, about

0:51:010:51:06

25-40%. And two, the political will

to do it. Actually, it's been shut

0:51:060:51:10

down.

I'm going to ask Chris about

the political will in just a second

0:51:100:51:17

being a distinguished former

Parliamentarian. Rather than being a

0:51:170:51:23

former distinguished

Parliamentarian. Quick points from

0:51:230:51:25

the audience. In front with the

beard. You've got a beard.

I'm a big

0:51:250:51:33

fan of the consumption room prop

posals. Drug addiction's been around

0:51:330:51:36

since the beginning of time. It

won't go away. The only way to

0:51:360:51:41

address is it common-sense

approaches.

Do you run the cannabis

0:51:410:51:44

club?

I do.

You have a lot of your

clients here today! LAUGHTER

Thank

0:51:440:51:54

you for the support. We've been open

14 months over that time we've found

0:51:540:51:59

out we have a lot of people from all

walks of life from 18-72.

Is it a

0:51:590:52:05

cannabis I might have smoked at

university or I might not have? Or

0:52:050:52:09

is it... Is it the stronger strains

now that we're hearing about?

The

0:52:090:52:15

stronger strains, the weaker

strains. Everything is available to

0:52:150:52:19

be consumed within the club. We

don't supply it. The members bring

0:52:190:52:23

their own. They are happy to pay for

it.

This is crazy. Isn't it?

Let me

0:52:230:52:30

take it across here to the lady

there with the blue shawl. Good

0:52:300:52:34

morning. What I wanted to say was

addiction

We know as a medical

0:52:340:52:40

person, I know as well, addiction,

some people are prone to addiction.

0:52:400:52:44

Whether its alcohol, drugs or

whatever. It is a medical problem.

0:52:440:52:47

We need to have these places more of

these places so that they can be

0:52:470:52:53

counselled. Get the support they

need if they do want to get rid of

0:52:530:52:58

it. Exactly the right thing, right

attitude to take.

Thank you. In the

0:52:580:53:03

white shirt. Hello. The lady in the

white shirt. Too many white shirts

0:53:030:53:10

going on here.

I want to come back

to the financial argument. Drug

0:53:100:53:15

consumption rooms can reduce the

pressures on emergency services and

0:53:150:53:18

add anythings to hospitals. They

will increase demand on the services

0:53:180:53:23

treatment services so people can

access support. One of the

0:53:230:53:28

difficulties we have is these are

funded through two different

0:53:280:53:30

budgets. You might be saving in one

element but that money won't are

0:53:300:53:35

realised to put in extra support

services. We need to look at the way

0:53:350:53:39

we commission our services and the

way budgets are held.

Chris, you

0:53:390:53:46

were a former chair had a select

committee? You looked at drugs

0:53:460:53:51

policy?

Yes.

We've been talking

about this for decades. People say

0:53:510:53:56

we need an entirely new approach.

Some people wand decriminalisation.

0:53:560:54:02

Some people are arguing for places

like this. What stops us from moving

0:54:020:54:07

in a more liberal direction? Is it

the media?

The report published in

0:54:070:54:13

2001 or 2002, we recommended safe

injecting places. We took evidence

0:54:130:54:19

and witnesses from Switzerland where

it has worked very well. In my view,

0:54:190:54:24

that's a no-brainer. You're talking

about chaotic drug users. Heroin

0:54:240:54:29

mainly. You can only establish a

point of contact. If they have the

0:54:290:54:36

will, offer them another option.

Once you've got them in a controlled

0:54:360:54:40

space, the point you made earlier

about making sure they don't consume

0:54:400:54:44

con Tam Nated drugs and that

happened a lot around here

0:54:440:54:47

incidentally, been quite a lot of

deaths from it. It is a strong one.

0:54:470:54:52

The other thing is that the don't

throw their needles all over the

0:54:520:54:57

park or down various streets for

children to pick up. Of course,

0:54:570:55:02

there's a point about Aids as well.

We recommended at the time it was a

0:55:020:55:07

no-brainer. Why isn't there the

political will because mass

0:55:070:55:12

hysteria's organised by certain

sections of media, led by the Daly

0:55:120:55:17

mail usually, whenever the subject

is broached. And politicians are

0:55:170:55:21

afraid of that. Since politicians

depend on votes for a living, they

0:55:210:55:27

are particularly vulnerable to that.

One of the things we recommended and

0:55:270:55:31

it was a very minor recommendation,

was downgrading cannabis from a

0:55:310:55:37

class A to a Class B drug. That was

based on the science. Nothing to do

0:55:370:55:41

with... When we did, the Home

Secretary accepted that. And did it.

0:55:410:55:50

And extraordinary hysteria broke out

on that one issue.

It is strange,

0:55:500:55:57

there was a whole generation of MPs

who kind of should have known what

0:55:570:56:01

they were talking about because they

were all people who had done it as

0:56:010:56:05

well!

Not me, Governor! I have never

even smoked a cigarette.

I think it

0:56:050:56:13

was on LBC they interviewed all the

Labour Party candidates. This he'd

0:56:130:56:19

all done it except for Jeremy

Corbyn.

And me!

The question about

0:56:190:56:22

this is the failure of the state.

Political parties come into power.

0:56:220:56:27

As soon as any political party

controls the state, they have an

0:56:270:56:32

inability to be able to deal with

this issue effectively. The good

0:56:320:56:38

judgment is overborn by the fact

they feel as running the stale they

0:56:380:56:42

can't allow this. This should have

been done years ago. It is a state

0:56:420:56:46

failure.

I live in Durham where the

Chief Inspector of Durham

0:56:460:56:52

constabulary Mike Barton set up a

checkpoint scheme to reduce

0:56:520:56:58

low-level crime in relation to

drugs. I've nothing to do with class

0:56:580:57:02

A or the police. I have me own

demons which I play the 5th

0:57:020:57:07

amendment on. He, and his staff,

want to reduce low-level crime with

0:57:070:57:14

drug abuse and drug addiction. I

don't wish to misquote him. He wants

0:57:140:57:17

to attack, get at the highly

organised criminal gangs, take the

0:57:170:57:23

money way from drug supply, which is

the life blood. Which is why they do

0:57:230:57:28

it.

Fiona, we're coming to the end

here. Obviously we're talking about

0:57:280:57:35

chaotic and problem users. But there

are chaotic user of alcohol and

0:57:350:57:39

problem users of alcohol. People

debate this, shoot all these

0:57:390:57:45

opinions. Some of the people refuse

to acknowledge the most dangerous

0:57:450:57:50

drug in society.

Which is alcohol.

Yeah. Just to get back to your point

0:57:500:57:56

They're called public houses, the

safe places.

Drug consumption rooms.

0:57:560:58:01

They're called my front room on a

Friday night as well!

Mike Barton

0:58:010:58:07

also wants, the Chief Constable, I'm

his community adviser, he wants

0:58:070:58:12

heroin assisted treatment. He wants

safe consumption rooms.

Pete, last

0:58:120:58:18

word. 30 seconds.

I was saying, my

concern is there's a lot of money

0:58:180:58:27

going into this, enabling, I'm

sorry, that's what I call it,

0:58:270:58:31

enabling someone to carry on in

they're diction. Put the money into

0:58:310:58:38

residential rehabilitation centres.

We have to leave it there. Thank you

0:58:380:58:41

all very much. Thank you. See you

next week.

0:58:410:58:44

Next week, we're in Southampton,

so do join us then.

0:58:440:58:47

But for now, it's goodbye

and have a great Sunday.

0:58:470:58:50

Nicky Campbell presents topical debate from Northumbria Students' Union, Newcastle. The panel discuss if the left has a problem with anti-Semitism, whether porn is damaging to society and if there should be official safe places to take drugs.


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