Episode 10 The Big Questions

Thank you very much. Good morning. Welcome from the Manor Church of

England School in York. One of the stranger developments in Christian

faith is more people believed in the literal truth of the Bible

today than they did 50 years ago, or 100 years ago, or even 200 years

ago. Other than the Commandments that Moses brought down the

mountain, the verses of the Bible used to be regarded as man-made,

divinely inspired but not the words of God. Sections of all three

Abraham make face up at odds. -- faiths are at odds. This morning

we're asking one big question - is fundamentalism undermining faith?

We have distinguished scholars and people from many faiths. We have a

very lively audience in York. As always, you can join in as well.

Just log on to the website where you will find links to places. You

can continue to discuss this online. His fundamentalism undermining --

undermining faith? Professor Linda Woodhead, why is fundamentalism, do

you believe, dangerous? Fundamentalism is a very modern

thing. It only arises in a modern period. It is a misconception that

it comes from the past and it is just the past repeating itself. It

is not. It wants to be clear and simple and wants to purify. It is

like melting down gold. It wants to find a simple truth and we can

think we have got it and they have not got it. It is like advertising.

It inherently breeds this us and them. We have the truth, we're the

only ones who have it. That is dangerous. Is it growing? Yes, and

know. In this country, evangelicalism is growing. It is

like a Nis. The problem is it is not that the fundamentalists are in

huge numbers, they influence all sorts of religion. If you take the

Catholic Church or the Church of England they have become much more

conservative since the 70s. That is the real problem. That is

interesting. It is this clinging to literalism which is a recent

phenomenon. How did they 150 years ago see the Bible? Was it very

different way? I would like to call it back dualism or positivism in a

way. These are completely clear facts. There is no dispute. It is

clear to everyone. It is modern. In the past, there were many more

understandings. There were layers you could read the Bible at - a

literal one and an allegorical one. It took a lifetime to absorb the

scriptures. Now you can instantly understand what it is. You are

either with us or against us, like the George Bush thing. Absolutely.

Mark Mullins, dying to cumin. You are an evangelical Christian. You

believe the Bible is little, inherent and historical. Yes.

Earth was created in six days. No are live till he was 950. Moses

parted the Red suit. Yes. This is like a check list. -- Red Sea.

Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt? Yes, that is right. Jesus

said, watch out! Learn a lesson from this. The ever-changing

message in the Bible is that we must leave this world - the desires

of this world - to follow the path that God has set for each one of us.

Week might leave our sin behind by putting our faith in the Lord Jesus

Christ. That is an inference from a message. Does it mean that

historically it happened? It is hysterical because the Bible is

based on the true accounts of what took place in the Old Testament and

the New Testament. How can anyone live to 950? It is quite simple,

they do not die until they are 950. My father would not have guessed he

would still be alive at 98 but he is. Human lifespan is unpredictable.

All we know it is it will come to an end. All we know in the early

days of the Bible is the situation they lived was different. In the

West, the circumstances we have men are much better than they are in

Africa. The average age is greater. This is just being purist, isn't

it? It is reading it as though it is an historical document. The

Bible is made up of all sorts of Sean Rowe us - poetry and history.

-- genres. What of the simple and sincere faith he is addressing?

was just wondering, what is going on where some one thinks, this is

definitely truth? I can find not many things that I believe are

definitely true. I do not want a binary view of the world. There is

right and wrong and good and evil. Jesus said, I am the way, the truce

and the life. He has put up a standard. Quoting the gospel to me

it will not work! Why ever not? You are asking me why I believe in

binary, true and false. The reason I do is that Jews is believed there

was one way to his father and that was through him. -- Jesus believed.

It is black and white. I want to go the right way which would take me

to heaven. I hope you will come with me. And what would happen to

me? What would happen to it every sinner, which is, every sinner who

does not put their trust in Jesus will be judged on Nursing. I want

to know, what happens next? Let's say, I am a sinner. What will you

do to me? I will do nothing to you. I will pray for you. Jesus says,

those who do the will of my father. It is how we behave. It is not

about taking certain boxes. It is not good enough to do that. You

need to live your life in the wake of his teaching. My father's house

has many mansions. We have gospels that contradict each other all over

the place. Different times, saying different things. What Church are

you from? You believe the Bible is a literal truth. There are no

Muslims in heaven who have not accepted Jesus? You have to accept

Jesus. Before I accepted Jesus Christ, I could think how she is

thinking. It does not make sense and it does not bother me. When

Jesus Christ comes into your life, you see something different. That

is when you can understand. I know where I used to be and where I am

now. When they are talking about the Bible, I can support him by

saying, it is a fact. I can understand it clearly. Why did

Jesus abandon those who do not accept him? No, Jesus does not

abandon everyone. I die for anyone. Whosoever I will welcome into my

kingdom. It is welcome. And to live the life. Is this what Linda means

by it is them and us? Indeed so. I share many believes. I believe the

Bible is true. What do you mean true? What is it for a collection

of documents that includes songs, stories and poems? What is it

Foreign poem to be true? It is different to say a collection of

propositions is true. It contains many different sorts of things.

When we read these things, we must do it in community, in our

tradition and using our minds and reason. There can be rational

Christianity's. The message is true in a sense. We can read a piece of

fiction and there is a truth in that? There is absolute truth in

the Bible. Linda used a good word - Thatcherism. We do not read it with

a factual missed approach. -- factualism. Siegfried Sassoon wrote

a poem about the First World War. He wrote a poem about a fact. The

fact you write it in poetic form does not make it any less true.

What is the danger in s? What does it lead to? I believe it leads to

exclusion and lack of nuance. When I hear about Jesus calling me a

sinner - I have not been called A Senna for so long, it is amazing.

When you call me a sinner, I feel frightened with what comes with it.

What comes next is, so what do you do to the other? It is about, who

is the Beth in this discussion. If we are sitting together and

listening, it is interesting and delightful. What I want to know and

I'm scared about vandalism. It is about what happens to the other.

am feeling very confused. I am hearing what Linda says and am

saying that is fine. I disagree with both of you. My point of view

as a modern Orthodox Jew, I engage with secular studies and science. I

believe the five books of Moses were given by God. In my own

tradition, we believe there are 70 different interpretations of every

text. We have exclusive salvation rests here who say they have the

one truce and that is what will save you. The rest of you are

damned. I am trying to claim authenticity. 200 years ago, the

point of view of mark would not be authentic. I'm not going to

surrender might authenticity. less modern Orthodox Jew would not

recognise Rabbi Laura as a rabbi, would they? Is she a rabbi? Is she

a rabbi? It is not yes or no number Macro. Is she a rabbi? -- at no.

recognised -- I recognised Laura as a reformed rabbi. Let me be very

clear about this. We both know there is a different qualification

to being an orthodox rabbi to being a Reform rabbi. Laura might say the

components are becoming a Reform rabbi are better and I am going to

say it vice-versa. I am trying to connect this back to a truce. To be

called a sin and not a rabbi within I can stand up for myself. It was a

bit of a politician's answer, I've got to say. Coming back to truth,

what's the thing is, what I want to say is about the voicings we are

hearing and about the question whether fundamentalism is

undermining faith. To have a point of view, the question is how it

comes out in action. One of my concerns about the rise that

Professor Linda talked about in fundamentalism here and a different

rise is that it is impacting on how people are treating, for instance,

women. The gender separation of women and what's happening is

changing and it concerns me. Is this a reaction, do you think,

this fundamentalism, against the march of feminism? Absolutely.

do? Absolutely uniform across fundamentalism. It's patriarchal.

All sorts of fundamentalism believe men and women are not just

different but unequal and that men should have control, I would say

domination, and there's a very strong homosexuality drive in all

of it. It's very much about a particular model about purification,

a pure masculinity. That's very much at the heart of fundamentalism,

more forms. Alex is back. What about those trying to struggle with

all churches and movements which have accepted women bishops, rim

Rabbi, including my own. I know it's not very minister, but there

are four rim Orthodox ordained Rabbis. It's a struggle. Is it

discriminatory? Are the Orthodox Jewish being discriminatory against

women? I don't think they are. They are looking at building their tra

diss on centuries of Jewish law -- traditions. It's an intellectual

struggle between those who'll shut down, any attempts of the past to

ordain women, and now precedents versus those, perhaps like me,

looking at ways of promoting women into leadership and recognising

them there. The reform movement's only been ordaining Rabbis since

1972. OK. Mr Khalid, we'll be with you in

a moment. Some of this is familiar to you guys, I know that. Laura,

come back? The women who've been ordained have been privately

ordained, they do nothing in public and there is a deep and deepening

concern... In the Orthodox? Judaism but not only there. Hang on.

Against women speaking out in public so there is a move to stop

women speaking in politic where a young lady will see nothing as an

insult in comparison what's's happening. At least let me correct

that. There are women speaking out in public. The women who've been

ordained have Rabbi roles or leadership roles within their

synagogue, I can't let that go. You know that in Riverdale they are...

It's apologetics. I'm not apologising. We come from different

denominations and as a result I recognise you from that

denomination and you should recognise me. We are struck wling

that issue and promoting women into leadership roles. -- struggling

with that issue. In some circumstances in fundamentalism

Judaism, women are being stopped singing in public, they are not

allowed to go into same zones in public as men. That is really the

concerning issue because... It's modern Orthodox... You are proving

the point! Alex, I'm going to shuffle along to another great

religion now. You will have another chance later on because I know you

want to come back. Khalid and Haras. Is some of this stuff familiar to

you? That es exactly what I was thinking. I'm hearing the same

debate within the Muslim community. We have the same sort of issues, we

are tackling the same sort of problems. For me, really, it's as

soon as we make religion into just rituals and into dogma that we

twoish impose on others, that's where the problem starts -- wish to

impose on others, that's where the problem starts. We really need to

be able to have space and space within our communities and in the

public sphere to be able to discuss openly to be able to understand, to

be able to challenge our scholars so that we can progress as a

community and as a faith. There's a great deference and sometimes

unquestioning deference towards scholars, oh, we have to ask them

about that, they say this and that, why are the scholars necessarily

right? Absolutely. We understand that scholars have studied quite a

lot, but being a scholar is not, just from a Muslim perspective, not

just about understanding Islamic law. It's a whole lot more than

that. You have to be a part player in society. You have to be able to

contextualise what you are learning. So the best scholars, the most

relatable scholars are those that can understand the context in which

we live and be able to relate to that. But also it's very important

that the scholars recognise what the purpose of any law or any

decision is. Going back to the original question Nicky, is

fundamentalism a danger to faith. I think it's a serious danger and

it's something we haven't talked about which is terrorism and

extremism. Fundamentalism, the caix of them and us, the way that you or

some extremists regard the other as somebody that is a viable target

for terrorist activities, whoever they are, and that can be within

the same faith or outside... It's said as though there is a

supremacy about them? Absolutely. There is a concept in Islam which

raised its ugly head a couple of hundred years ago, or maybe a bit

before that as well. That's the concept of saying that anybody who

does not agree with the way that I interpret - that's the key word

interpret the Koran - is not a Muslim or is not somebody that I

actually should treat in the same manner as I can treat a Muslim. He

or sh she is a target. We hear this all the time, she's not a proper

Muslim. We had a hint of that earlier on didn't we maybe as well?

We did, and for me, it's a disgrace, quite honestly. We are ourselves

and we stand before God ourselves. It's not in my mind that I should

judge somebody else. There's... Hold fire. Something

inspires me, there are as many parts to God as there are breaths

to man and that's something that I buy into and try and live my life

to. You would say there's only one path to God, wouldn't you, Abdullah

Hassan, and I know that I think it's mandatory for women to wear a

head covering for example? A hijab, yes. If they don't? Can I just add

a few comments? In a minute. I want the answer the question. Do it my

way, my way's the only way, that's what we have been talking about!

Is it mandatory for women to wear the Islamic hijab? From an Islamic

perspective, and this is the mainstream view of the majority of

the scholars, throughout the world, Muslim women, they have to cover

their head and wear the hijab. They'll be... I'm not in a position

to look down upon them or rebuke them or sensor them, I encourage

them to wear the hijab. Or God will judge them? This is a personal are

laitionship between them and God. - - relationship. I'm not in a

position to tell them to wear the hijab, I would like them to observe

the hijab because this is what Islam says, but if they do not wish

to - it's a matter of choice. phrase "I would like them to wear

hijab", it's got nothing to do with you or I as to what a Muslim woman

wears on her head. That's her decision. Much of what Khalid said,

we have to understand that there are certain principles that do not

change. In Islam, we have the five pillars of Islam. We have to

believe in God, pray and so on and so forth. I said to him, principled

were never changed. There were other issues which are between them

they'll change the time and place and context. Certain things in

Islam will not change. The hijab, the issue of hijab women need to

cover, this will not change. This is... Just because I follow a view,

does not make me a fundamentalist. To two back, what does that mean.

People will say because I pray I'm extremist or fundamentalist. But I

don't agree with that. You say that scholars are divided on this, but...

Can I finish this point? I thought you had, sorry. The principles in

Islam have not changed within communities, but most of the things

do change. The issue of the hijab will not change. Are all schools of

Islam saying that women should wear the hijab? Are all responses...

Let's get Khalid in. Wait, wait, Khalid, come back? I understand

what you are saying, but you have gone from the five pillars of Islam

to hijab. That's the jump that I struggle with. I understand that

the majority of scholars consider hijab to be compulsory. I can

understand that. There are people who would discuss that. That

discussion should be allowable and it may be that in time people,

because the verse that you have taken ant hijab, it's interpreted,

OK. It's interpreted and something... Can I answer the

question... Can I speak for a moment? After Khalid. So all I'm

saying is that from jumping from the five pillars where I agree with

you totally to hijab or to something else, OK, is not quite in

the same bracket. I think there is discussion among scholars about the

hijab. I gave an example of the five pillars, I could have

mentioned about stealing, lying, the principle will not change so I

could have mention odd they are things but we don't have time

obviously. I think a woman can answer that question regarding

hijab. Yvonne, you have been on an incredible journey. Give her a

round of applause, she's here today. One thing with you that I noticed

because we worked together years ago on Carlton Television before

you went to Afghanistan and you reverted to Islam. You don't shake

a man's hand any more, why is that? No, that was something that I

looked into. At first I did, but some men are hand shakers, others

aren't. So I would extend my hand and they would go like that. Then I

wouldn't and they would go like that and in the end I decided the

easiest thing to do is not to shake anybody's hand and go for the least

line of resistance. Is that in the Koran or anything? Yes. I'm not a

scholar, I am learning about Islam. But one thing that Islam has is a

rotten public perception. The outside, people looking outside

look and see the press subjugated silent woman when they see a woman

with the hijab. The problem is, Islam has been hijacked by male

dominated cultures. We see it across Britain. You look at the

breakdown of mosque mitttys, they're nearly all men. You look at

all the Sounds familiar... listened to you and had sympathy

there. You look at all the Muslim males with the organisations

speaking for women. I did look into the hijab, it was more than a year

that I put on a hijab. It is simple. There's one rule for women and that

is to dress modestly and cover your head. You used to dress modestly

when I knew you before? My little black dress is now a big black

dress, that's the main difference. But the rules and regulations

governing what men should wear, there's a great big long list and

yet everybody will focus on the hijab. It's so wrong to do to just

focus on this one piece. Do you want to come in here? Yes, it's

really interesting what Yvonne is saying and similar concerns to what

I've had over the years. 13 years as a Member of Parliament for

Keighley, 20, probable more than 20% now Muslim, mainly Pakistani,

some Bangladeshis and I have great concern and have great -- had great

concern about men and their views of women monopolise the thinking

both inside and outside of the mosque. But that's not Islamic.

It's totally cultural and it really is in your area and in Jack Straw's

area that I cannot go and walk into a mosque and pray. It's absolutely

outrageous. They'll open the doors to Condoleezza Rice, she was

welcomed, but as a Muslim woman I couldn't go in and pray. This is

outrageous. One of the great similarities between Islam and

Judaism is the way that we work with law. One of the struggles for

us, as Jews and for Jewish women and progressive Jews, is being able

to be decision-makers as women. I want to ask you, you talk about

authority and scholars, what is the gender of people who make

decisions? I don't know, I would love to know. Can I make a point

before I answer the question? would like you to answer the

question. I agree with much of what Yvonne said and what the woman said

about men dominating. Before I was a pointer of the Imam, you know, it

was like I was too young and people were saying why are you an Imam, so

it's not only women. But to answer that question... You will always be

young but you will always be a man, that's the thing? It's true, I

agree with that, but many Muslim societies, men dominate and speak

for him, they say what they should wear, what they should eat and how

they should move about. We have many female scholars in the past

and they taught men so Islamic history, there we had the wife of

the Prophet Mohammed, the other female companions, they were the

first leaders to embrace that. Let's get back to the down bit. I

you believe if somebody accepts the science of for example evolution

which is I think it's something like 98.9% of the scientists in the

world accept broadly speaking you say they're not a proper Muslim.

This is a problem. I didn't say that. I thought you did. Let me

clarify. Evolution through Islam is going to the mainstream views quite

simple, but I don't believe in that. God created this. I wouldn't have

time to two into details, but if a person believes in that, this

person is going against a principle This is the point. If you agree

with something that is embraced by the vast majority of scientists,

you are not a proper Muslim? This is it. My worry is that these

minority views have now so it influenced mainstream religion but

a lot of people think religion is just about being an tedious, anti-

women, and his sexuality. -- anti- sexuality. When I ask my students,

who campaigned for abortion, etc, in this country? The Church of

England. We pushed forward for sexual liberalisation. People have

forgotten that will stop there has been a complete turnaround since

the 1960s. The Catholic Church has condemned this. People have not

been able to resist the voice of saying it is the one true way.

Fundamentalism has had a huge impact. I know this is what you

think as well - it is all about the perception of your religion.

Absolutely. You pick up any newspaper. In the media, the

stories we hear about Islam, fundamentalism, extremism, all

those words are bandied about. The mass population - most of us here

in Britain - get a lot of information about faith and Islam

from the media. It is a real issue. When fundamentalism causes that

sort of reaction and limits women from entering a mosque and taking

part in discussion, that is where we have issues. It is blocking a

face from exploring and being the best it can be. Fundamentalism

breeds intolerance. It breeds intolerance a game. It is a vicious

circle which goes round and round. -- intolerance again. How does this

manifest itself a what you have seen? I want to ask our Muslim

friends about what few they take about in the vast majority of

mosques in Bradford and Keith LEA, the a mums up pretty well and

educated? -- Imams are pretty well uneducated. This does lead to a

situation we are hearing off. There is a women's prayer room in

Keighley. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been used.

I wonder if we are able to get better educated people - who have

been educated in this country. any of them support you in your

campaign against forced marriages? Not open. It is cultural. It is

cultural. It is not in the Koran. It is cultural. I agree with you

110%. They cannot speak English. They do not know the society they

live in. They are told what to say and what not to say. It is changing

but there are areas where we have mosques with very intelligent

in English. People need to understand the context. Is it

cultural question I I do not believe it is culture. -- it is it

cultural? I believe that in Islam, what can testify a forced marriage

is that they give permission to the parents took choose for their

children because it is the best way for them. It is not about

translation. I disagree with that. The role of women as not an equal

citizen in Islam, as with other religions. Enablement is

substituted... Debt is nothing about forcing someone to marry

someone. -- there is nothing. can they not get them to condemn it

open the? As she said correctly, most of the demands -- Imams are

and do not speak English. I know it is true. I am in the community. It

is completely prohibited in Islam. I agree with you. There is nothing

that subjugate women in the way you have mentioned. In my view, people

theologically justify the fact that there is no such thing as rape in a

marriage. They theologically justify that people should not come

and pray in a mask. People well misuse anything. -- in a mosque.

The battle goes on but it is a very complex issue. The key to it is

education and maternity. The Lord Mayor of Bradford at the moment is

a woman. Nobody talks about it. She is leading the way in her own way.

We have to get back to the mosques. It would have been wonderful if

just a couple off Imams had said that to force sons or daughters to

marry is not right. Just once. Maybe you are too young and you are

not revered and venerated like the older guys. Lesley Pilkington, you

mentioned the issue earlier on of homosexuality, which is a big

challenge. You have been in the news recently, Lesley, an

evangelical Christian. You believe every word of the Bible. You work

in the news because you were giving counselling... How would you

describe it? The young man came to me because he was depressed and

unhappy with being homosexual. It is a very controversial area. I

respect all the different points of view. As a fundamental Christian -

a Bible believing Christian - I believe in the whole council of God.

If people are depressed and unhappy with homosexuality, often it is

because they have a face. We work with the concept of sin and the

fact there is a way out. It is important to take the whole council

Do not look at me when you say saying. You have been typecast!

mentioned saying and what I am saying, and you were quite scared

about it. Actually it is a good thing. If someone is concerned, we

are all sinners. We are born in a sinful state. That is why we need

the Lord Jesus Christ who came to earth to pay the price for our

saying, for all of us, for the whole of mankind. I am not imposing

my fuse. I respect all of your views. If you are concerned about

your sin, it is a good thing. It is telling me that God is working in

your life. Your brand of Christianity is angry and hateful,

some safer stub if you come to me because you are depressed -- if

people are coming to you because they are depressed because they are

gay, some would say, it is not a problem, you are what you are.

thought this was right for me. I want to finish. If someone is happy

in that homosexuality, it is not my issue. Shouldn't you be making them

happy? They are saying it is not all right. If you are and you are

happy, it is fine. Thank you. you happy? I am happy and proud -

very happy. What I want to contribute, and linked to the

subject that is being discussed, I do not understand where people with

fundamental views, I do not understand the gospel of the Bible

that they read. I speak as a Christian. Chooses is what everyone

- homosexuals, women - everyone. -- Jesus. To be homosexuals does not

make cute a sinner. Those who hold extreme views are creating trouble

for Jesus. -- make you a sinner. Jesus is for everybody because he

came to cure our sinful condition. If we repent of our sin, he will

wipe away, like he has done for me, all those wrong thoughts -

including homosexual thoughts. they wrong? In the Bible, they are.

It is not sinful. You interpret it to be simple. It is natural to be

sinful. We can change our nature through Jesus. I will require you

to answer this question. When young men come to you and they think they

are gay, what do you say to them? From the Islamic perspective, it is

the mainstream Orthodox do Dom I am not asking that. I say, this is a

sin. It is a sin in Islam and we will deal with it. If someone had

said, I am engrossed in stealing, I would say, you have to take a step

back, get a job perhaps. One of his criminal, one is not? How would you

help that gay person stepped back from being a question I would

advise them and give them cancelling and advise them about

the message of God that it is a sin. It is a major sinful stub it does

not mean that I do not humanise that person. -- a major sin. I do

not censor that person. Is it insane that it is sinful to be

homosexuals? It is working its way to rout the community. Girls have

been brought in from Pakistan to be wives. She discovered her husband

is gay. What should she do? These Fundamentalism is undermining faith

because it starts from a position that we are born as sinners. I

start from the completely different position. A completely different

position. We are born with pure souls. From that, we move out. And

I want to be able to set a very different agenda, an agenda that

says that we are equal, men and women. Whatever sexuality. I agree

with you. Lesley? Abdullah, we are going to

let the women speak. If I may speak, please. May a woman speak? What's

happening in our nation is we are sidelining the whole issue of sin.

If we do that, we sideline the cross and Jesus. This is what's

happening and a really good way of doing that, bless your brother, but

doing that is saying homosexuality is not a sin. The way out to the

sinner has been paid by the Lord Jesus Christ, it's the way to

freedom. I'm shocked now because I do think we are sinful. But...

feel a but coming on. I don't know about you? Why this focus on

homosexuality? Is it relatively recent? Incredibly. It was never an

obsession of the church's or the mosque's previously. It's another

symptom of this, well if the modern world says X, we must say Y. I

don't think so. What about real sins? Child abuse? What about

bullying, child abuse, violence, domestic violence, these things

that affect millions of people and you are focusing on homosexuals.

are not focus on it. I'm giving you my opinion because others seek to

make it such a big issue. I'm simply saying that the historical

position, you say that history historically... If I may interrupt,

and far be it for me to ever do that, but it's because a law, it's

illegal, it's lawful, absolutely lawful to be homosexual and illegal

to discriminate against those who are. That's the point. What we've

got is human law against the law of the Bible, whereas in the past we

respected the law of the Bible and the law of the Bible on moral

issues was generally, not always, took a Christian and slave to ban

the slave trade in the early 1800s, but generally speaking, it's been

respected and it made the basis of the laws up until the 60s, it was

the Bible. Thst this male purity again, a particular model of what

it is to be a man which is threatened by homosexuality. Also

being a woman is threatened by being a lesbian. No, being a

homosexual woman or man is threatening to a particular strange

view. It's just wrong, Linda. Yvonne? I used to be a practising

Christian and studied Islam for two years before I decided that for me

it was right. The big turn off that I found with Christianity is this

original sin. We are all sinners. It isn't in Judaism or Islam and

also the scriptures are very anti- women and in the New Testament -

I'm not an expert on what's contained... Let's have a

revolution... Terminology, yes. I found that women are portrayed as

tempt ress, see ductive people, and in negative roles, and in Islam,

the Koran which we believe is the word of God which is why it hasn't

changed one word in 1400 years makes it perfectly clear, crystal

clear that women are equal in spirituality, worth and education.

Unfortunately, that has been hijacked by cultures. OK, the other

thing here is is the consequences of not abiding by a particular

creed as well, which is what we've already touched on, haven't we,

that you are either with us or against us, and if you are against

us, of course, you are for the hot place, aren't you, Mark? The only

way to have paradise is, you say through gee sis, the only way to

obtain paradise, you say, Abdullah, and I count you both as friends, is

through Islam -- through Jesus. I don't know about paradise and you

Alex. Would you be working hard to save Abdullah, for example? I would

treat Abdullah as he is, he's a man with a very good brain, he's a man

who's committed himself... As are you? Health and Safety a man

committing himself to a way of life what I disagree with. I would try

and befriend him and discuss with him... Jesus in And his claims, and

he'd discuss with me the claims of Mohammed and we'd see where our

conversation gets to. At the end of the day, it's his free will what he

does with what I tell him and if people reject the message of Jesus

Christ, well they will answer on a day of judgment. What will happen

to them? The Bible says all sinners will be judged by just God who will

do right. Which version is that? They will go to hell, a place of

eternal core chur. He's convinced you are going there? He hasn't read

the Bible, the Bible is speaking the truth. You need to read the

scriptures. ALL SPEAK AT ONCE -- eternal torture. Lesley? We have a

completely different take and thank you for this opportunity, we really

need to understand the differences. We have to respect the differences

but we have to understand them. What is the unique offer of the

Lord Jesus Christ, we have to understand that. Are you listening

Abdullah? He's fine. If he had the will of the whole mankind to

believe in him, he would have done so, but he made some of us

believers and some non-believers to test who among us are good in

character, so we can have a belief and understanding. Paradise is

through Islam though? Yes but there are two things here. It doesn't

mean that I treat another human being that way. I'm looking at

people, babies, infant death mortality born in a different

religion to Christianity or Islam. Somebody came to me once, a

Christian missionary said, you will suffer in hell, something akin to

the extermination camps. I said, what about the kids killed in the

extermination camps Jews, brought up in a Jewish environment who who

were taken off to the camps and he said, I'm sorry, their soul is not

safe, they've not found Jew suss. That's totally unacceptable. We all

believe, all our faiths believe we were created in the image of God

and therefore we should respect that image because not to do so is

to desecrate God. How devisive is this? It's all very well saying I

treat you as a human, I treat you as such but when you die you will

burn in hell. From my point of view, as a Jew, if you lead the right way,

whether you are Jewish, Islam, atheist, then tough same space in

the world to come as anybody else. That is a Jewish teaching. Joy

goes back to interpretation and fundamentalism, who am I, we, be we

Muslim, Jewish, Christian, whoever, to ever imagine that we could

actually guess what God's decision's going to be on somebody.

God said in the Koran very clearly, I'm a Muslim, he said every single

person is rewarded for the atoms' worth of good they do. It's very

interesting here also that... Having the right to make that

judgment is extraordinary you are saying? Absolutely. The other thing

is here, why do you want to convert Abdullah? Because I love it.

can't you just leave him alone? You have only just met him? As a

Christian, God puts his love in our hearts for fellow human beings

which is why we don't go out hating people, we love them and seek to

win them in the same way that Christ won us for. That's the real

love that a man has for his neighbour. Why did God make Muslims

or Jews or atheists? What are we here for? He's given us free will

to choose which way to go and he's given us the answer in the Bible.

Or she. God speak to you? What happened when God speak to you?

saying that I was ant Christian, I didn't go to church. All of a

sudden, I was in a state of drunkenness and I couldn't believe

it because I thought I was going mad. I wasn't a Christian, I didn't

go to church, but then I realised after a came home when I was sober,

I realised something is going on with me and my life. So the

following day, I still didn't believe that to maist, I thought

the last thing I wanted to be was to go to church -- myself. Did you

heard the voice of God? I heard a voice like you are speaking to me.

When you were sober? No, I was absolutely drunk. You are on the

same side, what are you saying? It's not... It's a choice you make.

Fine, God can pull people in. I think that all three faiths are

waiting for the Messiah, why can't we all wait together? It's a

different Messiah. Let's wait together. Is there a

fight Khalid for the heart and soul of your religion do you think at

the moment? Well, I think there's definitely a discussion. Obviously

our faith is particularly polarised at the moment because we have got

the real extremism, fundamentalism, terrorism, which is trying or it's

around and it's something that we have to have discourse with within

our community to make sure that everybody stays within, which is

quite a big area that we'd call the middle ground. But I think coming

back to your point about heaven and hell, you know, why do we want...

If we are condemning somebody else to hell, surely we are looking down

on them. I mean, I don't have place for that. As Haras said, God is

going to judge everybody. Or not, as the case may be. That's for God

alone to judge. In the Koran it also says that... In Why is that

irrational? If you believe in heaven or hell, that means God is

looking down upon everybody because he created heaven or hell. God also

says in the Koran that amongst the people, Christians, Jews, there are

good. Of course. We are not there to judge anybody else. What about

the demographic? What is happening with fundamentalism in this

country? Where will we be with it in 20 years? It's not necessarily

growing. There is an argument that fundamentalists have more children.

That's not necessarily true of Christian fundamentalists but might

be true of the Jewish community. is. We are not going to see this

country overrun by fundamentalism so again, I think the bigger

question is what will happen to the religious majority in this country

who don't really have a voice now but who are decent people with

absolute conviction. Muddled? are not. What's wrong with being

muddled? What I've just heard people saying is, if you don't

agree with me, you are wrong and you are saying and you're muddled

and I'm saying know. I believe my beliefs with absolute conviction

and try and live by them but I've got a very small brain, I don't

think I can understand everything and I think that other people might

possibility be right and I'm going to listen to them and I don't think

that our views are necessarily compatible. I'm stuck in the middle

between anti-modernists and liberals on the other side both who

say you have got it wrong. The more right wing we go, the more Cisse I

have a list of things that are sins and wrong if you don't comply, you

are not authentic and Orthodox and the Liberals will say, having this

debate, I agree with you, liberalism has to be more strorm

armed if it wants to come out. strong armed. We sorted that one

out. Give yourselves a round of applause. Thank you for taking part.