Episode 9 The Big Questions

Good morning. Welcome to The Big Questions, from Manor Church of

England School in York. I'm Nicky Campbell. Eric Pickles, the

Communities Secretary, has a plan to bring us all closer together

across class, colour and creed with shared British values. Our first

big question - should we promote a united British identity? The poet

Benjamin Zephaniah says Britain's strength is that it is a blend of

different cultures who share only one valued - belief in democracy.

On Friday, Iran voted for a new parliament.

President Ahmadinejad's candidates are regarded as moderates compared

to those supporting Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei. With

tensions already heightened with Israel and the West over Iran's new

club for -- nuclear potential, our next big question - is Iran a real

threat? And finally, should we listen to

the angels? The author Lorna Byrne sees angels wherever she goes and

believes they are using her to send a message to the world. Welcome to

The Big Questions this morning. Now, separate lives, differing

values being tolerated across Britain's diverse faith, ethnic and

social mix is soon to be a thing of the past. The Government will do

its best to promote freedom of speech, freedom of worship,

democracy and the rule of law as fundamental British values to be

accepted by all. Should we promote a united British identity? Douglas

Murray, how can you construct a narrative that unites under one

umbrella, if you like, on a rainy day, a hedge fund manager in

Weybridge with the young Muslim man in Bradford? It would be hard to

create that from scratch. Fortunately, we are not doing it

from scratch. You can create a shared British identity through our

shared culture and history. If you teach that well, it is something

which anyone can feel part of. aspect of that history do you

emphasise? All sorts of things, the good and bad. There is a feeling

that at some points in the past, we might have only celebrated the good

things in our culture. Others would say we have only celebrated the bad.

You have to teach people pride and awareness of pitfalls. What is the

pride, invention, industry, culture? People fill pride in

different things. Some feel pride in our sporting achievements,

others in our cultural achievements. Most feel a bit of all these things.

But when people talk about a shared British identity, they tend to

assume that you are excluding people somehow. The key thing is

that you have a core culture on which all sorts of people pursue

different things around it, but they know what the core is. Then

what is the core? The court in this case is British identity, British

achievements, writing, philosophy, art, architecture. That is a lot of

things. Britain, by definition, is multicultural. The Celts, the Picts,

all the early tribes that came here came with a different culture. Even

the Romans brought a culture. So the new cultures that come now are

doing what Britain has done, and we should be embracing them because

that is what is at the core of being British. If Eric Pickles said

he wanted to come up with an idea of what Britishness is, could you

imagine? A group of men sitting in suits around a table. You should

not have to invent something. You just have to identify it. What

about empire? At empire would be part of it. You would teach the

good and bad things about empire. No one believes in that concept of

Britishness, but what is disturbing is that David Cameron and Eric

Pickles, ahead of the election on May 3rd, are trying to turn up the

noise on this debate in an attempt to attract audiences of... Who

knows what their views are. Why do we need this? There are a number of

reasons. Embracing multiculturalism is great. But we should not promote

faith based identity politics or people being treated differently

because of their faith, their race or their culture. That is what has

happened over the last ten or 15 years. I have seen the brunt of

that. David Cameron and Eric Pickles are trying to undo what has

been done over the last ten years, where people have been dealt with

according to their faith etc, and they have been living separate

lives, not mixing. I am not talking about assimilation, but integration.

People have not been able to speak English, yet been born here. What

about the way people dress who come from Pakistan, for example? When

immigrants come to this country, it is natural that they bring with

them a particular culture. My uncle's had been here since the

'20s. I remember looking at photos of the immigrants that came over.

They were dressing in a manner that would help them integrate into

society. Now, the people who are Pakistani or Bangladeshi are more

Pakistani than people in Pakistan. A few years ago, a British man

would have been represented by a man in a bowler hat. You do not see

that now. It changes. I know somebody who, years ago, got

married when she was 18. Her husband died when she was 20, and

she stayed in mourning, covered in black, for all her life. And she

lived to be 80 or something. That would have been seen as British

culture. It is not any more. Should Kiran Bali be wearing a tweed two-

piece, then? For we celebrate the diversity we have in this country.

But what is missing is They do That binds us together. How do we get

that? With a sense of belonging through the British values of

freedom of speech, the rule of law, democracy, all those things which

are prevalent among the religions as well. And English, being the

common light bridge, will serve to bridge the gaps between communities.

But we have another language. Forget about Hindi and Urdu. There

has to be a common language, English. What about Brummie?

Reverend, let's bring you in. Eric Pickles said the separate lives

strategy has failed. I think people live separate lives because it is

natural. There is no policy of separate nurse. People gravitate to

people who are like them and they live in their own comfort zone.

That is the reality we face. It is where we come together. It is

Englishness that I am concerned about. I work in Bradford with a

new immigrant groups, asylum- seekers, refugees and others. I am

appalled at the fact that there is no hope -- help for people to

access services. People are isolated because they cannot speak

English, and they are living in these sort of enclaves. Individuals

like me are doing voluntary work. The councils are not doing enough.

There is no government policy of helping people, except to

understand what makes a Britain. We can talk about democracy... I know

a young chap who was born in this country. He went to a school which

was predominantly Pakistani heritage people, 99%. He went to

university and only mix with people from Pakistan who worked for his

father, Pakistani best customers. He left the company after having a

problem with his father. I got him a job somewhere else in mainstream

society, and he could not survive in that job. He signs on now. This

is someone who was born here. Limiting life and job prospects. Do

you think somebody wearing a niqab, for example, should be reading the

9 o'clock news on TV? If she wants to. But I would have a problem

taking my family to a restaurant of the waiters were wearing a

balaclava. I think we get hung up on trivialities. In terms of how we

dress, how do you define what stress is? What this gentleman said

will be a government strategy, not just scaremongering or using it for

political ends. If there is a genuine concern, we should see that

strategy coming out. Do you think these things are happening

naturally? You were saying that when you go to Kashmir, you feel

British. At the end of the day, you pick up the norms, the conventions

and the way of doing things. You only realise that when you go out.

You mentioned Brummies. We talk about Lancashire and Yorkshire and

cricket and football. There will be slight differences. You said

earlier that when you see people jumping queues, you get angry. That

is a very British thing. I found this out the hard way. I went back

to visit my grandfather, who lived in this country for 50 years. He

just wanted a warm place to retire. We do not have those in Yorkshire!

At the airport, there was an elderly Pakistani gentleman behind

me who started kicking off. People over there accept this. It is just

normal that people jump the queue. And it is who you know. It might

happen in small cases in this country, but it is not common. We

do not accept it. Asian people, when they go to Pakistan, they tell

people about this. They say, we love it in Britain. We don't get

this. But when we come here, we have to go to influential people to

get things done. In Britain, we don't have to do that. Benjamin

Zephaniah, what is a better idea to foster a sense of unity? What about

the Queen? What about her? Does she not transcend? Is she not a

unifying force? I feel very British. If I go to Jamaica, they look at me

by the way I walk. I don't even have to talk. They just see my body

language, and they know I am British. But I would like to do

away with the Queen. Does that make me less British? Definitely.

course it does not. There has been a tradition of republicanism in

this country for years. This is a constitutional monarchy. Does that

make him less British? Yes, it does. It is outrageous on national

television to say to get rid of the Queen. That is our Queen in this

country you are talking about, sunshine. Sunshine? How dare you!

How can you have people on your programme Call Me Sunshine? If you

were to insult at the head of state anywhere else, you would be in

trouble. Don't insult the head of state at. But it is the beauty of

this country that you are not allowed -- you are allowed to not

like the Queen. What about the Levellers? You are allowed to have

Union Jack T-shirts. The threat about being British is the same

discussion that is coming up. It is a problem that may be created in

the future. I think people in this country should not be defined by

their race, their gender or their culture. It will be a diverse

British community. I think religion or language is a problem. If we

want to all have a common language called English, why does the

British government Cup English courses for people who enter the

UK? There should be support for people to learn the language. There

is no support. They have to pay. Benjamin, our friend over their

highlighter something interesting. He called me sunshine. I know, and

I apologise if you were offended. But freedom of speech is vital,

isn't it? He didn't give me any. You have it now. Even when the

Queen and the monarchy were German, white, even back then, there was

multiculturalism in this country. Not so long ago, the East End of

London was a poor Jewish area. There were parts of the East End of

London which were a poor German area. There were poor Polish areas

when people came from those countries, they gathered together

for security because they had people who understood them. Once

they lifted themselves out of poverty, they moved out. That is

what needs to be addressed in these This is about class, isn't it?

Socio-economic. To a great extent, yes. People that come into this

country tend to be at the lower socio-economic class and then over

decades and centuries they come up. To an extent, it is true that there

has always been immigration in this country and in the last 60 years

there has been much more. Some of these debates are more febrile than

they were then. The amount of Huguenots that came to this country

over the course of a century was the same number of people that were

in a grating to Britain in a few months under New Labour. --

emigrating to Britain. It is a different case and we do not

necessarily have to pretend that away. Although we have immigration,

there has always been a sense of identity in this country. That

should not be ignored and it should not be pretended away. People are

saying that Britain has always been a country with no identity that is

British. We do. People feel it. A lot of damage is done when you tell

people that they do not have an identity or the right to an

identity. I was born and educated in this country and my identity is

precisely not having that identity. Britishness is not having that

identity. That might be fine for you but not for other people. Lots

of people want to feel an identity and pride. They may not want to

celebrate not having an identity like you, but having one. That is

Britishness. What is wrong with encouraging the pride of being

British? People that are indulging in an to national activities are

dangerous. What is dangerous? unBritish to think like that.

unBritish to have an idea of being British? An interesting paradox!

When you are abroad you have that feeling of Britishness because you

sometimes know what it is. But it is complicated. The idea of British

people wandering around being proud to be British is not very British.

You should not pretend that people do not have an identity and do not

feel it. Another thing worth considering is that historic... Of

what we have here is pretty unique. Very few countries have this level

of tolerance and decency. That is not accidental. It is because

people have fought this through before in this country. There is a

tradition of philosophy and a religious tradition that has been

accepting of people. We should know about it if we are going to

celebrate it. If you get somebody to come up with an idea of what it

is to be British, you will lose it. You are not coming up with it. It

will evolve. There is a difference between evolving a British identity

over time and celebrating multiculturalism and actively

promoting that people live separately. There is a massive

difference. Every time I have somebody to tell me what is

Britishness, and to put it in a sentence, they can never do it. The

things that made me proud of being British are different, probably, to

the things that make you proud of being British. There will be some

commonality. Yes, there will be some things in common. Freedom of

speech. And all of law. Democratic process. -- rule of law. These are

the similarities and we should focus on them. What freedom of

speech? Freedom of speech means that this gentleman can upset this

monarchist. That is fine. The Gentleman is right on one thing, it

is run around the world to be in a country and so that you do not for

the head of state and for that to beat fine but it is fine in this

country. There is a long tradition of being anti- monarchy and it is

part of it. It is not a value of only being British. Living in this

country, either obey the law of this country. My identity is not

being British, Asian, black. It is being human. If I come from another

country and so that I am British, it will give lots of opportunity to

the racists in this country to grow up. This is another threat. It is

very damaging to the white people to be British or non-British.

Everybody should be entitled equally. There is so much

discrimination, especially against women. You have just said that to

obey the law. In this country women have the right to vote. How do they

get the right to vote? By disobeying the law.

Thank you all very much indeed. Give Benjamin and Douglas and

everybody around of applause. If you would like to have your say,

please log on to our website. You will find links to places where you

can continue discussing it online. We are also debating live this

morning from the Manor Church of England School whether Iran is a

real threat and if we should listen to the angels. Tell us what you

think about those topics and send us your ideas for future debates

and any comments you would like to make about the programme.

Tomorrow Binyamin Netanyahu visits Barack Obama for a very important

meeting. Top of the agenda is Iran and whether tougher sanctions or an

Israeli attack is the best way of dealing with their nuclear

ambitions. The rest of the world will be holding its breath. Is Iran

a real threat? Douglas Murray? it is. It is a regional destabilise

in the Middle East and it finds terrorist groups, Hamas, Hezbollah.

It has destabilised the Lebanon. To that extent, yes, it is a threat.

Some people believe that if you like what they are doing now,

you'll love it when they are also a nuclear power. To that extent, yes,

of course. It has a long history going back 30 years now, since the

revolution. The Israeli assassination of Iranian nuclear

scientists, is that not terrorism? I would just say that it is unwise

to assume that it is Israelis carrying that up. Nobody knows.

Somebody killed was a member of the green movement in Iran last week.

There are a lot of things going on in the Middle East and lots of

entries that really do not want Iran to become a nuclear power. --

lots of countries. We should not assume. In a second, Benjamin.

is not just Israelis that have a problem with Iran becoming nuclear.

It is the Bahrainis, the Saudis, the people that are diametrically

opposed in terms of theology and ideology, controlling the sacred

places in Saudi Arabia. They are the people that have more to lose

than the Israelis and they are the people that are really worried. If

Iran escalates in terms of nuclear weapons, or what is to stop them

getting them? You work for press to be. I do not work for them. I have

a production company that produces programmes for them and did work

for them in Tehran. This is the BBC and I work for the production

company. It is funded by the Iranian state. Ahmadinejad has said

some extraordinary things. Of 9/11, for example, he spoke of the myth

of the Holocaust and said that 9/11 was orchestrated by people in the

American Government. Can this man be trusted in any way? I think the

way of using personalities to discuss the idea that his country

will go to war of is another one in the next few months, as Tony Benn

says, issues and not personalities. It is not just Barack Obama and

Ahmadinejad. Replying to that point, you can say that Iran is not a

nuclear threat. Barack Obama says so, the President of united States

says so. It is lovely to hear somebody that works for that

television station siting the press secretary as an authority. Recently

were not doing that. Why believe this defence secretary when he says

something that you agree with but you would not otherwise? And not a

grin. That is the general consensus among policy makers. -- I am not

agreeing. That is not the consensus at all. It is not the consensus. It

is your opinion. I am taking statements by... By certain people.

The US national intelligence services. We could all quite the

opposite. The rhetoric coming from the Iranian regime is not positive.

It sent jitters across the international community. The regime

is not doing any favours to itself. It needs to build confidence to

reassure us that we have got nuclear facilities and they will

not be used for weapons. That is all that it will take. Unless they

do otherwise it will escalate into war. They are malicious date in the

heart of the Middle East with nuclear weapons, and that is how

they are viewed by others. -- a militia state. David Cameron is

arming them to kill their own populations. The rest of the

developing world sees Britain and the united States as arming this

proxy state called Israel. It is strange that we have countries in

the Middle East, Pakistan, a country of origin and for my

parents, who are struggling to feed the people and have real issues in

their countries, but all they can think about is arming themselves

with nuclear weapons. There are some real issues. Nobody would

disagree with that. Peter Jenkins? I am frustrated by this discussion

because there is no evidence that Iran has taken the decision to

manufacture nuclear weapons. The leaders of Israel have been trying

to persuade the rest of the world for 20 years now, ever since 1992,

that Iran is a threat. But there is no evidence that it is trying to

manufacture nuclear weapons. There is no evidence that it has given

radioactive material to its friends in the level none, the Hizbollah.

That would have been end natural thing to do. -- in the Lebanon.

That would have been a natural thing to do. The leaders of Iran

are rational. Which leaders? Ahmadinejad? A even he is rational.

He is a rabble rouser, a populist, a demagogue. We know these people

and we even have them in Britain. The Holocaust, and? Iranians are

very intelligent and by and large a rational people. They know the

world would be united in condemning it and taking action against them

if they were to cross the threshold and bridge their Non-Proliferation

treaty obligations and start manufacturing weapons. At the

moment they are on good terms with Russia and China and most of the

countries in the developing world, contrary to Western rhetoric which

says they are isolated. They are not isolated. You are a former

ambassador of the National Atomic Agency. Why do they not allow the

inspectors to go where they want to go? The agency inspects countries

according to an agreement, a legal agreement. Iran has always allowed

the agency inspectors to go where it is entitled to go under that

legal agreement. The one area in which they have so far made

difficulties relate to allegations which were not covered by that

legal agreement. Iran for the moment is claiming that those

allegations are not true. In reality, probably some of those

allegations are true. But Iran does not want to make an avowal until it

is given some reason to be confident that if it makes an

avowal, it will not be incriminating itself. Only the week

before last, the agency went into Iran and were forbidden to visit

certain sides. They asked to visit the site which they are not

entitled to visit. I think they should be allowed to go there and I

am confident that Iran will allow them to. It is a military site. It

is not on area with nuclear material. I am glad that you know

that! Well, I do know that. But the agency has not had the opportunity

to find that out because they are not being allowed to visit by the

regime. The idea that the regime in Iran is rational. Not talking about

Ahmadinejad at the moment. The Supreme Leader has repeatedly

called for the eradication, the annihilation is the turn he uses,

of a UN member state. Israel. No other country in the world is led

by a leadership that continually calls for the eradication, the

annihilation, of our whole people. Most Middle East dictated in the

Arab world say things like that. The Liberal Democrat peer was

thrown out of the party this week for saying something like that.

you want her to have nuclear weapons?! A new twist to the

coalition! They don't have nuclear weapons. What we have outlined

before is that most people in the Middle East feels that Israel

cannot last in its current configuration. There will be a one

state solution. They will live together. Peter Douglas, then we

will come back to you. This kind of rhetoric, calling for the

elimination not of the state of Israel but the current regime that

governs it, then... What is the difference? Let me finish my point.

Iran's leaders have been doing this since 1980 but for 12 years between

1980 and 1992, Israel's leaders were trying to have an alliance

with Iran. So for 12 years, Israel's leaders were not the least

bit disturbed by that rhetoric. It is only since 1992 that they have

chosen to fight that rhetoric It is extraordinary to claim that

it is the fault of the Israelis when a neighbouring state denies

that the horror cursed -- Holocaust occurred, and then to have the

leadership of that state call for the eradication of the people who

are the descendants of the survivors of that Holocaust, and

for that state, while doing these things, to be disobeying all

international obligations and to be, in the eyes of many people,

pursuing a weapon eyes to nuclear capability. It is extraordinary,

when those things are going on, that anyone would think it is

Israel's fault for misreading Iran. On many TV channels, we know that

you are playing with language. It is widely cited that there is this

eradication debate. It is you who is playing with language. We are

BBC One, a channel where the chairman of the board of governors

was fired during the Iraq war. We are getting into another war.

are referring to Ofcom rules. wanted press TV to pay a fine of

�100, which they refused to pay, so there were real seasons for the

banning. Let's not get into that debate. Benjamin Zephaniah. But we

say something for the Common woman and the common man here. I missed

one moment, in a sense. When you started talking, you started saying

as a fact all these bad things about Iran. When Nicky mentioned

the assassinations of Iranians, he said, -- you said, that may not

have happened. You miss her bad. I said it would be unwise to think

that we know who is doing that. you know all this other negative

stuff about Iran. Other people in the region may have an interest in

doing that. I said it would be unwise to assume. All I would say

to Britain is to speak to people who have lived and worked in Iran.

I have never met this man in my life, but he sounds reasonable. He

understands the place. I have met an ambassador, and they give me a

completely different view from the view you give me. I have met

Iranian punks stand Rastafarians. I saw the map last night of all the

American bases around Iran. Hundreds of them, looking at Iran,

and Iran is a threat to us? Diana, what is the regime like the human

rights? That was exactly my point. Iran is a threat to whom? Iran is

most threatening its own people within the country. It violates

human rights, it discriminates against women. There is a part by

gender and sex for separation. They execute political activists. It is

violating human rights within the country. Is it a threat to the

region? But Iran never attacked any countries around the world during

the last hundred years. Unfortunately, nuclear weapons are

in the hands of many irresponsible people around the world, including

Iran and many other countries. Haras Rafiq, you are worried by a

religious aspect? President Ahmadinejad so has a particular

strain of Shia Islam which believes that the end times are imminent. If

you have somebody who believes that, you believe that if you join the

dots with a nuclear weapon, there is a problem. We have to make the

caveat that some people who want to be the next President of the United

States quite also want the end times to be promised, but is this a

worry for you? It is not just the Shia people, but there are many

sects within Islam that think we are in the end times. President

Ahmadinejad is a member of the Shia religion. Yes. What worries me is

that if Iran gets nuclear-weapons, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain and

everybody else will want them. Pakistan has got them. Pakistan is

a problem. But Israel has got them. Apparently present can many has

said nuclear-weapons are not Islamic -- Ayatollah Khamenei has

said they are not Islamic. Does that we are sure you? I don't know.

What happens in the future? Anything could happen in Pakistan

at this moment in time. They have nuclear weapons. We have extremism

and terrorism running through Pakistan. If those nuclear weapons

get into the hands of those people, we have a problem. There is no

meaningful dialogue with the Iranian regime. All three of you

are warmongering. Ahead of a war. These kind of statements are part

of this general media drift towards war which we saw in 2003. On the

domino effect, you need to bear in mind that countries like Saudi

Arabia and all Iran's neighbours are also parties to the Non-

Proliferation regime. If they were to start manufacturing nuclear

weapons, there would be in breach of the international community --

commitments. How would the US reacted that? Were Israel to attack

around, it would be in very serious breach of the UN Charter. It would

be an act of aggression. You are only allowed to attack another

state out of self-defence. In the absence of any evidence that Iran

is manufacturing nuclear-weapons... I like Iran and the Iranian people.

If I liked their culture. There is a lot of history around the Persian

culture. I do not want Israel to attack Iran. I want peace and

stability in the region. Because what happens in the region has an

impact elsewhere. Then who are the warmongers? In the Middle East? How

long have we got? Fists we have dictators and regimes.

Ahmadinejad a warmonger? He tries to be. Whether he is actually

blowing hot air or not, I don't know. Yes? Anybody's extreme view,

I do not understand the meaning of extreme this. -- extremeness. Islam

does not kick -- tell anyone to kill anyone. They should not kill a

fly, never mind a human being. It is only the evil people who are

killing people. It is nothing to do with Islam. Islam is getting a bad

name because of these evil people. I don't care where they are from.

The problem is that it is not the Muslim community, it is the

extremists who are to blame. They make all the changes in the world.

One of the problems is Iran is the rule of the extremists. They have

got power. In this country, we have got extremists. We are facing this

problem even in small things. Like allowing a Sharia court to operate

in the UK. All of those activities are linked. Steve is from a local

church. You have been praying for somebody in Iran? Yes, a pastor has

been held for a long time in Iran for leading a Christian church,

which is illegal. This week, he was executed by the government of Iran.

Today in church, we will be praying for the nation of Iran and for

those who have suffered the loss because of this terrible travesty.

Because of a man's faith, he can be put to death. A lot of the media

were saying he was going to be executed and were erroneously

reported. But it is Iranian people who are saying this. The idea that

Christians and Jews are not allowed to practise in Iran is observed. If

I can mention press TV again it's Sykes, the editors are Jewish says.

The so is this man dead or not? has been reported. There are double

standards here. In Iran, a woman was charged with adultery, and I

understand she was killed. Stoned to death. There was outrage in this

country. Around the same time in Saudi Arabia, a woman was beheaded

because somebody said she put a curse on them and she was a witch.

Not a word from Britain. Haras Rafiq? There was some noise about

that. Not as much. David Cameron was shaking hands and hugging the

Saudi Arabians. Douglas Murray, what about that issue of double

standards? It is absurd to think that there is only one problem in

the region. If you pick up any of these chords in the Middle East,

they lead to major problems. Saudi Arabia pumps its Wahhabi propaganda

around the world and has polluted a mainstream top of Islam to the

terrible detriment of Muslims worldwide. And from Iran, you have

seen this ideology which has funded terrorist groups around the region.

It is absurd to think that there is only one problem or that because

you have several problems, you should not deal with one.

liberation movement is fighting for the voiceless in at least while

Britain supports Saudi Arabia and arms the Zionists with their

nuclear weapons. It was not a liberation movement that

assassinated Rafiq Hariri. There is another serious problem in the

region, the occupation of Palestinian land on the West Bank

by the state of Israel. That is a debate we have had before and will

no doubt have again. And it is connected to this one. But one last

question, Douglas, about the meeting tomorrow between Benjamin

Netanyahu and President Obama. gather the speech President Obama

is giving tonight, he will stress that America will not allow Iran to

become a new theorised state and they will stop it from being so

before it can declare its nuclear success. I think that will, to some

extent, dampen fears in the region, because it will mean the Israelis

will not feel they have to do this alone. It is nothing -- the

president Obama will realise the Iranians are trying to do what they

For you can continue the discussion online.

Send us your views about our last big question - should we listen to

the angels? If you'd like to be in the audience at a future show, you

can e-mail [email protected]. We will be back next week with a

special edition asking just one very big question: is

fundamentalism undermining faith? Then we will be in Leicester on the

18th, and Birmingham the week after that.

You may think you can say about 60 or 70 people around me, who are all

getting on tremendously well. But one of our guests, the author Lorna

Byrne, can see many more beings than that. She says everyone here

is accompanied by an angel. We are just not prepared to listen to them.

Should we listen to the angels? Welcome to the programme. Your book

has been tremendously successful. It was a Sunday Times bestseller.

You have lectured all around the world. If what can you see right

now? I suppose one thing to tell you or, I see the wonderful

audience here. But as well, I see your guardian angel physically

behind each and every one of you. It doesn't matter what religion or

what nationality you are or whether you believe or not. Even if you say

you don't believe in God, you have a guardian angel that God has given

you as a gift for. To me, the message is for people to be kinder

to each other and nicer. I hear from so many young people,

especially young men, saying that now they realise they have a

guardian angel. Which is no bad thing. So there are guardian angels

and other Rangers as well? Yes, I see other angels as well. I am

looking at the audience so that I will not be distracted too much.

I have a guardian angel? You have a beautiful guardian angel. Not my

editor in my hippies? No. What does my guardian angel look like? Your

guardian angel is of a male appearance. Only four guardian

angels have a human appearance. They may be male or female, but

they do that for us. Are they be? Yes. As Douglas have a guardian

angel? Douglas does have a guardian angel. I know he does not believe,

but that does not matter. Does his guardian angel look happy?

guardian angel is looking down on him and is quite contented with him.

You have to remember, I have never seen any guardian angel being

annoyed with us. They seem to Never Give Up On Us. They keep

encouraging us. You must remember that your guardian angel, would you

believe in God or not, is a gift from God to guide you through your

life. Your guardian angel will never overstepped the boundaries of

your free will. I see them talking to people. How do we get that

guidance? We do we hear them. But a lot of the time, I'm afraid we

don't listen. We kind of half hitter side. But today, everybody

is talking about wonderful subjects. You have seen an angel. Tell me

about it. I more than one occasion, yes. When my second daughter was

born, my wife had had a difficult pregnancy the first time, and we

were praying that she would have a short Labour, only gas and air, and

that it would just last four hours, a normal delivery. The midwife came

into the room and said that we needed to be thinking about 24

hours for the Labour. I want you to ask for an epidural and we will

have the forceps ready. We had been praying for nine months a different

way. We just prayed to the Lord, what was this about? At that very

second, issued person appeared in the room. I was not looking for an

angel. -- a huge person appeared. He was 10 ft tall, no wings, looked

masculine. Wearing something like armour. He stood at the foot of the

bed that my wife was in with his hands laid out and the booming

voice filled the room, saying that this angel has awaited his charge

since the dawn of time. I suppose it was at that moment that I

started to believe in guardian angels. And you saw one on the M62

as well. Yes, when I was quite young, 19 or 20. 1920? You don't

look that old! 19 or 20! I was a young driver. I was not very

confident and I hit some mist and fog. It was the worst I had ever

seen and I did not know what to do so I stopped the car. I saw a

figure running past me. I thought what is that? He was running,

wearing shorts and a T-shirt, running along and 62 in the fog,

and it seemed very dangerous. -- along the M62. I wanted to know

where he was and so I drove the car slowly forward and caught a glimpse

of him in front of me. He started walking. I thought that I could not

hit anything if he walked in front of me so I drove at his speed.

Except he ended up running at about 50 mph. The thing that shocked me

was when I drove out of the fog bank, there was nobody in front of

me. Until that moment in time I had not thought it was an angel. Lots

of people have an experience like that, of seeing angels. I think

that is very wonderful. The message of the angels is being spread

around the world because they are giving so many messages. What is

their message? They have told you about various scenarios, haven't

they? A couple of those scenarios are too frightening for you to tell

us about, I know. Yes, I would not like those futures. We were talking

about Iran a few minutes ago and one of the messages from the way --

from the angels is that war is easy to make MPs is the hardest thing to

keep and we must keep on talking. - keeping the peace is the hardest

thing. Peter is applauding! I do agree in Luke Skywalker as well as

the angels, let's put it that way. The angels announced the birth and

resurrection of Jesus and they always want us to direct us to

Jesus, I believe. Even along the M62? Yeah so! Do you believe in

angels? You are the Catholic. brought up to believe in guardian

angels but when I reached the age of reason I became more sceptical

about that Catholic doctrine. I had black ice and 60 miles an hour on

the M4, skidded out of control and bounce like a pinball between the

barriers on either side. The car was totally written off and yet I

emerged intact, as you can sue. I did not see an angel, but my first

thought was... That sounds like an assassination attempt by the

Israelis! For conspiracy theories! My first thought was maybe I'd do

have a guardian angel after all. When you listen to these stories

about guardian angels, if you take away the religious aspect, they

would be in mental homes. I used to know the editor of a newspaper and

he used to come out of his room and say that he had just finished

talking to Bob Marley. He would have these conversations with Bob

Marley and everybody thought that he was mad. Because it is religious

you think it is all right to call them angels. I am not criticising,

I am just saying it is the state of our society. If somebody is not

religious, and they hear voices and they see people, they go into a

mental institution. But if I say that those people are sent from God,

and it is religious, I am just commenting, for me, what this lady

is saying is harmless. I'm interested in near-death

experiences. Everybody that has had a near-death experience says that

there is a God and something else, but it has nothing to do with

religion. Nothing to do with the way you dress, what you eat, but

there is something greater than us. And it is the same, whatever

country you are in. Go on? Before I come to you, let's just establish

this. We have a wide shot of the audience. And everybody else. Put

up your hands if you believe in angels. Has anybody else seen an

angel, in the audience? I have seen fairies. Some people will find this

difficult. You were going to come back then. It does not matter to me

whether people ridicule it. I see them physically and I have since

the moment I was born, every day. I know it is hard for people out

there in the world that can't see angels physically. I know that they

are real, normal and natural. I know everybody has a soul and God

is real. To me the most fascinating thing is that IOC angels physically

with everyone and it does not matter of what religion they are. -

- by sue I see angels. From a Muslim perspective there is the

dogma of faith and spirituality as well. We believe that there are at

least two angels with you at all times, one on the right and one on

the left. The one on the right actually writes down when you have

a good intention and when you do it, they write it down again. Do you

see two or one? I only ever see one guardian angel. You are wrong!

see a minimum of two. That is fine. The point that she is making is

very important. It does not matter from my perspective whether

somebody is somebody of fate, or not. They are still created by one

God. -- is somebody of faith. The creation of the angels, the Sol,

the spirit, it is irrelevant of what faith you are. There is free

will and we can decide what to do. What do you make of this, as an

atheist? I think it is a good idea for a book. That is why your book

is on the bestseller list and wine is not! -- mind is not! I could not

read or write. I am dyslexic. I cannot even say the word properly!

As a child, the angels would say that I would write about them and

God and I took no notice. When I was married one of my children told

me it was time to write. I could not understand how God expected me

to write a book when I was almost incapable of reading and writing.

He said that help would be sent and somebody did come along and buy me

a dictaphone. What do you think? seems to me, to an extent, whether

you believe that this is the case or not, that it is dangerous to

take advantage of the credulous and people's real fears. People have a

real fear of death, for instance. What do you see in it? P pulled do

have a real fear of death and they always will. -- people do have. If

you tell people they are looked after, it makes them feel better.

So people that believe in reason are always at a disadvantage

because we do not have fairy-tales and we cannot take advantage of the

credulous. We cannot claim that angels say banal things in our

spare time. Not only that. The story gives a lot of comfort to

some people, but I always bigger but those people that do not have

those experiences. I mean, I believe in angels but... What do

you mean? On the M62? You listen to these experiences and you have to

think they can be interpreted otherwise but I worry about those

that do not have that. If he had died that evening he would not be

saying anything about angels. Lots of people just die on the motorway.

And they did not say that the guardian angel let them down.

is the point. For every child rescued there are so many others.

People love lives of quiet desperation. I wish that we all had

an angel that can speak and top. Badgered is multiculturalism debate,

we are worried about living isolated lives of quiet desperation.

-- back to this multiculturalism debate. It is not about spirit. It

is about us getting involved and becoming the Messenger, the angel,

to help other people. Do you believe that angels can speak to

us? As Hindus we do not believe in angels. It is fascinating what has

been said about seeing angels and communicating them and with God. I

would be interested to know whether these angels were their thousands

of years ago at the time of Lord Krishna. Can they tell us that?

believe so. So they were serving Lord Krishna as angels? That is the

thing, icy everyone with a guardian angel. I see angels with everybody.

It does not matter. I know that the other man was saying that when

somebody is killed in a crash, where is the angel, but you have to

remember that the guardian angel is there. When we are born, we are

born to live but we have to die, too. We had a bit of a

confrontation earlier on, which Benjamin felt very uncomfortable

with. The gentleman there said something disobliging and Benton

and felt offended by it. -- Benjamin. What is guarded angels be

conferring on that incident? -- are of their guardian angels

conferring? No. I do not see guardian angels constantly speaking

to each other. He will never call a black man sunshine again. Seriously.

There are people that see other people, dead relatives. Do you know

about this? Do you see that as well? On occasions, God allows me

to see a soul, yes. Before my husband died, when he was very ill,

I saw his soul, out of his body. I felt very privileged to see that.

Some people can see their dead grandfather and relatives. I only

see the angels. I did see an angel ones. It was in a nightclub in

Birmingham but she was married! idea of us being the messengers of

God is really important. The good news, which angels are supposed to

announce, has got to be that we can be the answer to a lot of people's

needs. Thank you very much and have a good sermon this afternoon. We