Episode 13 The Big Questions

Good morning. Welcome to The Big Questions live from Manchester. I

Nicky Campbell. Yesterday, restaged by the EDL in Denmark to launch a

counter-jihad movement was attended by only 300 people from five

countries. 4,000 demonstrated against them. But many said the

meeting had more strategic said -- significance than suggested. A

Tommy Robinson, the leader of the deal, says he will continue to

expose the threat from Islamism to the culture of the UK and Europe.

The average age of turning to prostitution is just 15, despite it

being illegal to pay for sex with somebody younger than 18. She

looked older is often a defence. It is being looked at whether to raise

the age to 21. Should it be illegal to pay for sex with a young adult?

Helen Wood turned to prostitution at the age of just 19 which led to

a liaison with Wayne Rooney. Welcome, everybody to The Big

Questions. At yesterday's meeting of anti-

Islamist groups in Essien was labelled a damp squib in the papers

this morning, but those who launched a counter-demonstration

said we should not underestimate. The trial of Anders Behring Breivik

begins in two weeks. Good morning. On a previous rally, this was at

Tower Hamlets, I just want to see where you are coming from. You said,

every single Muslim watching this, on 7/7 comedy got away with killing

and maiming British citizens. You got away with it. You had better

understand that we have built a network from one end of this

country to the other, and we will not tolerate it and the Islamic

community will feel the full force of the English Defence League if we

see any of our citizens killed or hurt on British soil again. Yeah.

Basically, we were highlighted as we have done from day one, protest

peacefully and bring it to the media attention. That does sound

peaceful. That sounds very threatening. It is not a threat, it

is a promise. It is, we will continue to deal with it. Nobody is

dealing with the Islamic groups. We have more extremists than ever

before. What do you mean by a "full forced"? I mean by taking to the

streets. What do you mean by "every single Muslim"? I mean, every

single Muslim in the community. Stop brushing it under the carpet

and pretending it is not there. People think you're just a bunch of

thugs. I stood up on stage and we had a break-in point in our

movement where we had neo-Nazis trying to get on the hour bandwagon.

I called them up and then I head- butted him. He was shouting abuse.

When I got back to the coach, I was confronted by another 30 Nazis. I

get weekly death threats from them. Are you an anti-Nazi movement?

Nazis and it Islamism is the key opposite side of a coin. -- they

are the same sides of a coin. has been said, they are trying to

do something and they have politicised a whole generation of

youngsters. Used to be in the BNP, but knew? Yes. In 2004. Before I

joined the BMP, did not know that non-white people could not join. --

the b n people stop you thought it was a multi-racial organisation?

Added not know he was a not see. For him saying, we are morons. I

watched him on Question Time. dangerous do you believe the EDL

is? I think Tommy and his organisation are extremely

dangerous. They peddle hate and myths at a time when we have seen

spikes in Islamophobia and raised raid. We see attacks across the

UK... Have you been threatened? have been threatened and had lied

cases. I have been threatened with violence myself. This is not about

me, though. As a society, we have your organisation, which is

paddling hate, which is hurting, alienating and you are denigrating

cor communities. It has be made very, very clear. This is about

Islam. I am not sure you can even be fine Islamism. Some of my best

friends are Muslims. I don't hate all Muslims. Muslim is the first

step to extreme Islam. I have always said that. When it comes to

paddling hate. When you say you were threatened on Twitter, I have

been in hospital with bruising to my brain, I have had eight stitches

in my lip. My children have been threatened. So don't tell me about

being threatened. Do you not think for a second you are part of an

organisation, and you win in Denmark yesterday and you are

bedfellows with people saying that they want to outlaw he job and

export Muslims and pay them to have government! -- to have governments

send them away. The people that show it to a greater or lesser

extent some of the concerns that Tommy took -- attempts to

articulate, do they not count? think they are important but we

have a major problem in this country, in that there has been no

a proper debate about Islam. Almost every Muslim I have met, Islam is

shown to be inclusive... What about extremist sects? This is the United

Kingdom. We are talking about Muslims and Islam in the United

Kingdom, which is inclusive and tolerant and supportive and

encouraging of other faiths. In Islam, we say there is no

compulsion in religion. It is not about oppression, it is actually

about providing freedom for people. And not the kind of fear of York

Organisation pedals. If there will be 1,000 sitting at home who don't

see things integrating. -- there will be thousands of people sitting

at home who don't see things integrating. You are not talking

about political extremism. You are talking about all Muslims. I am not

talking about Muslims. I am talking about Islam. But you think all

Muslims are likely extremists? can you say that? I have just told

you... I have just said some of the best people I've met growing up are

Muslim. Islam is a seventh century ideology. It is not just me

thinking it is failing... Let him finish. The fastest growing parties

across Europe are anti-Islamist parties. It needs to evolve and

modernise and you can't call me a worship -- a fascist or racist for

pointing out this ideology. significant of the EDL? Are a

changing the discourse in the country? There are significant and

they represent the grievances in society. But many watching the show

may be concerned about the way in which organisations like EDL tend

to have a lot of slippage in the way they talk about Islam. So they

talk about militant Islam but they it openly talk about Muslims as

well. We have to be very precise in our terminology. When we look at

the evidence and the survey and the research being done, the majority

of Muslims do not endorse terrorism or violence. The vast majority feel

strongly attached to their country and their neighbourhood. And the

vast majority of Muslims in this country do not endorse things like

honour killings. But under Sharia law, women are treated as second-

rate citizens. You will get 50% less than a man in a law court.

That is not on. What I find really interesting... What I find

interesting about your organisation is, I was looking at your website

yesterday, and you are trying to say you are a human rights

organisation. I find that quite farcical. Basically, organisation

pedals hate and misinformation. Last month, two Asian men were

beaten to a pulp by men who claimed they were sympathising with

extremism. It was discussed in court. They have gone to prison.

Two weeks ago in Salford, a black woman was walking in broad daylight,

2pm, pushing her child in a pram and a man racially abused her and

used sexual language and threw acid at her. Racism is very much a

reality of people's lives. If the other side of this is, it to the

Muslim community need to do more to separate themselves from their

extremist wings? There are young men who want to cure their fellow

Britons. -- to kill. What you think about the poppy-burners? I think

they are extremists, just like you are an extremist. You talk about

human rights. The European Court of Human Rights did an in-depth study

and a -- and they've found that Sharia law was incompatible with

modern views and law. Why do your members wear toy pig masks and

carry bacon? And you have dressed up as Anders Behring Breivik?

misquoted me. I was using the noise that a frog makes because I look

like a frog. What are these pig masks about? I don't know. I don't

wear those. The point is, within society, you are worried about this

country becoming more and more Islam and you are worried about

that happening in Europe because of fear. Fear that does not need to

exist. If you understood the Islamic contribution to the society

in arts, society, music, literature, maths... But Christian populations

across the world are being massacred... You cannot be

misguided by the actions of a few individuals. We are talking about

the far right. Can you define that to me? There are two key things

that far-right groups share. Firstly, they undermined what

liberal democracy is all about. It accepts that a plurality of views

is littered -- legitimate and we should support them and allow them.

What many people would feel is that your organisation and the way in

which she campaigned is automatically discounting the views

of Muslims and the rise of Muslims to hold those used. Secondly, what

far-right groups share... I am sure you would say you are not the same

as the American Nazi Party because there is much variation in those

parties. But they share a rejection of human equality and I would guess

many watching the show would feel your organisation is no longer

talking about militant Islam. You are just talking about Muslims.

You so far right. We have got a Sikh division, a Jewish division...

Sorry. Matthew is an expert from the far-right. You were brought up

in Kettering. No, I wasn't! What is the population of Muslims where you

grew up? Where you grew up, there has been no Muslims or immigration.

When your children go to a school where other age children's fathers

are teaching them hatred and those views, then you can be an expert.

Because they are out of touch with reality. Are too many politicians

out of touch with what he receives Clearly, one of the reasons that

groups like EDL across Europe is growing is partly a feeling that

left-wing parties that should have been representing the working

classes no longer understand what it is like to live in a

multicultural society. Tommy can say he lives in Luton and he knows

what it is like, and in Westminster you have no idea but the question

is whether we are complacent. For all the bluster that EDL can

present each week, and they get lots of media coverage, there is

not many of them. Most of them or online, on Facebook and forums, but

they cannot get more than 400 people in the streets. Look at the

BNP in the UK, it calls 2% or 1%, and across the rest of Europe, it

is polling 20%. There never has been, maybe in the Thirties there

was a brief shining moment, but there has been no tradition of

electoral success for far-right parties in this country. A lot of

that has to do with the system that we have. We are just as concerned

about the far right issues and they do not think those issues should be

discounted, they need to be talked about. That is probably the only

point of convergence that we would have. In Britain particularly,

because of the failure of parties like the BNP and the National Front,

we have tended to be extra dismissive about the far right. We

have dismissed it as a lunatic fringe to do not deserve to have

their grievances talk about, and I do not think that is right. It is

because people do not want to vote for groups like the BNP. The

average person the joins the English Defence League is an

average man. There is quite a lot of crossover. The reality is that

the type of narratives these parties offer are very similar.

Jamie's study has shown that EDL supporters are concerned about

immigration generally. I think many people are. I have a huge problem

with the way this debate is being defined because the implication

seems to be that there needs to be proactive steps taken by government

to stop people from expressing their opinions. You cannot say this

because I do not agree with you, and every opportunity the EDL is

taking to express themselves, the reaction is so strong to this.

Actually, what we should be asking is, why does the EDL exist in the

first place? Why is it that these people feel so disenfranchised that

they have to look to the EDL rather than local councillors? There is a

deficit here in terms of representing these people's views.

Whether you agree with them or not, we live in a democracy and the idea

is that people are able to express their opinions, whatever they may

be. That is fair enough. And there are people who have these concerns

to a greater or lesser extent. It will volunteers. -- We are all

volunteers. There are legitimate issues that need to be discussed on

race, immigration, all those issues. Across Europe, these issues are

being manipulated by mainstream parties. They are not. There is

definitely an increase in far-right activity. When you say far right,...

Led to finish. -- let her finish. There needs to be an accurate

debate. Let us talk accurately. Let's not used misinformation.

would you like, and this is an important question, what would you

like the Muslim communities in this country, and they come in many

different forms, what would you like them to do? Integrate and

assimilate. To find that. He cannot call everyone who opposes Islam far

right. What you mean by integrate and assimilate? How would that

look? If you go to Luton, half my mates are West Indians. How come

the Jews, the Sikhs, the West Indians are integrated? There is no

commotion. 38 goals on Friday in court in Oxford, 12 Muslim men

and... Sexual perverts come in all races. When will Muslims take to

the streets in outrage against this -- their fellow Muslims? The first

issue is this. If they are criminals, they are criminals and

their ethnicity and race and religion has nothing to do with it.

Secondly, within Islam we have women's rights, we have men's

rights and we have rights for children. We are very moral and

quite conservative. Your idea of the simulation would -- and mean

that I should not have a beard, wear a hat or walk around like this.

No one has said what needed to be said. In my home town, there have

been four armed robberies by people wearing burkas. What would she like

-- how would you like these people to behave differently? All these

organisations that you are affiliated with either give money

to charities that fund extremism or Islamist organisations. There is no

evidence of that. That is a slander. You are not affiliated with the

Islamic Forum of Europe, named as an Islamist organisation? The fact

of the matter is that this issue is about complacency with your

organisation. We can argue about the definition of far right is, but

we have scholars and studies saying that the rhetoric and language used

by your organisation is in parallel with the anti-Semitism that came in

the 1930s before the Holocaust. will have another chance. There

were lots of pro Israeli flags at the demonstration yesterday, which

is an interesting phenomenon. think the debate is characteristic.

I do not think the deal is that they can they do not think it will

get much bigger. It represents grievances the people have and the

idea of getting out and doing something is quite appealing, but

the fact is that the way the media landscape has changed in the last

five or 10 years has meant that Tommy is always reading stories

about Sharia law being about to be introduced, and other people are

reading stories about EDL, and it becomes very polarised. Because the

EDL is predominantly an online organisation that sends each

other's -- cents each other links, it is group think. Men the of us

are guilty of group think. -- many of us. I think it is unfortunate

that the far right are getting all the press when it comes to

criticism of Islam. I think there is a lot that needs to be

criticised in a free democracy about Islam. But Islamists in

particular. The main problems icy or that embedded in Islamic

theology and culture is the idea of Jihad. It has been going on for

1500 years. With respect, we have debated this on many occasions. My

question this morning, are we too complacent about the far right?

think we are too complacent about the far right of Islamism. I think

politicians are sparking the fires. Jack Straw, many of the mainstream

politicians are discussing issues like grooming, extremism, and

defined -- I find that organisations like the EDL jump on

those issues. The discussion is, are we too complacent in tolerating

BTL? The public space has already been given to these organisations

and the rhetoric from the politicians gives these movement's

credibility. -- the EDL. I wonder what do you think about this. Is it

good to have Mr Robinson on this morning so that we can examine and

analyse and assess what he is saying? You wanted to ban them at

one stage. If you and your family ever want to come and meet my

family, you're more than welcome. Let me just finish. I have no

hatred for you. While we're sat here, most of us can hear a protest

going on outside. They attacked a lady. She was spat on. In his eight

people. -- it is eight people. Winston Churchill was a famous

Islamophobia. I think it is important that you're here and that

we have this debate. It is important that we have a discourse

to challenge these things. I have a problem that if the Government

decides that organisations who are not conducive to the public good,

whether it is Muslims against Crusades or any other organisation,

if the Government decides to ban them, and I have a copy of a letter

that I wrote to the Home Secretary. James Brokenshire wrote back to me

and said that they had decided not to prescribe the English dispense

League. Why five members... Anders Breivik made it very clear that he

had influence and links with the EDL. On page 1438 of his manifesto

he said EDL is anti- racist, anti- Nazi and naive fools. And on page

1242 he said that he had met with an shared ideology with...

problem I have, if 38 Muslim Corus had been raped her in the last

three weeks, country would be on fire. The country would have been

on fire. I am from Oxford. Everybody's DRS... Your daughters

are not being raped, ours are. are making more or noise than the

people outside. I am from Oxford and there is a case going on at the

moment, Thames Valley Police are investigating grooming of young

women. A similar case. 11-year-old children, our daughters. Can I just

speak? Thank you very much. There has been a similar case in Rochdale.

Some supporters of the EDL showed up at Liverpool Crown Court where

the case is going to court, and that trial had to be temporarily

halted. A barrister rang me. Does the EDL short but cases were white

men have been grinning Corus? men are not allowed to sit outside

A* -- grooming Corus. I am totally anti- fascist, 100%. I got arrested

last year for throwing eggs at this lot. I am not against you guys as

an organisation advocating love for everyone. That is what I'm about.

But there is an elephant in the room. Even the Asian community, and

this is not an Islamic issue... but it is an Islamic issue. How old

was the Prophet Mohammed when he had sex with a child? They are

represented and the grooming of young girls and unfortunately, that

has been statistically shown. The Asian communities are working with

those men to sort out those issues. John Mann, MP. And we should not

shy away from issues any more... Any more than we should shy away

from problems with the Catholic Church and Catholic priests. They

are hijacking it. There are many problems. The EDL is a tiny

organisation and I think that they would be far better off, is that Mr

Robinson? If instead of Saughton -- starting aggressive marches, if he

accepted the dinner Invite, I think that would be a better way...

have got this extraordinary celebrity edition of Come Dine With

Me coming up here. Look in's Labour-run council... Are you

serious about the offer? I have a meeting next week with an a man.

Luton's Labour-run council, when we asked them to facilitate a meeting

between us and the Muslim leaders, they said no. I am concerned with

engaging with the merits of the debate rather than the issue, which

is, are we allowed to express ourselves? He is expressing itself

-- and sulphur. In terms of what is happening at the moment, as a

result of 30 or 40 years of multicultural thinking, it is now

prohibited to even challenge certain basic things. I do not

agree with the way the debate is Under the Prevention of Terrorism

Act, if you insight terror, under the Communications Act, the law

makes it clear and distinct what is lawful and what is not. But I do

not suggesting by saying we are being complacent that the EDL is an

organisation that should be banned? No... You did have a Facebook

petition. If they were banned or any organisation were banned, that

causes its own problems. After Anders Behring Breivik killed

virtually 100 people, an absolute monster who loved EDL... Hold on a

minute! My point was, he shared an ideology, and if the Government

bans all organisations which share ideology with extremist

organisations, the EDL have gone over that line. Some people will be

able to hear the shouting outside where we are today. Are some people

on the left doing this counter- productive? On your Facebook

profile, you say your views are left, far left? I say I am

progressive. The point is, there on militant fascists contributing to

problems in towns and cities and that is an elephant in the room

that is not discussed. Should the EDL be banned? No it. I think it

should be heard. But at some point, the organisation has to take some

responsibility for his reporting, as do some sections of the British

media. Tabloids reported that two thirds of young British men endorse

honour killings. They had to apologise, didn't they? Yes. If we

look beyond the data, it is a completely different story. This is

a European-wide movement, this counter-jihad movement, as it is

called, where does the money come from? Across Europe? If your cat

stays like the Netherlands, it is privately backed. -- if you look at

states like the Netherlands. Others are political parties who are

democratically registers. If the English Defence League goes into

elections, they will have to comply with electoral law. A let's get a

microphone for him. There were jihad it just means struggle. I

would love to sit down with you and discuss that. I would like you to

understand how I contribute to society as a Muslim because my

religion asks me to do that. So let's sit down, have a coffee and

have a chat. Thank you all very much for taking part in that debate.

If you would like to have your say, go on to a wore site. You will find

links to continue the conversation online. We are also debating in

Manchester, should it be illegal to pay for sex with a young adult? We

are back after Easter from Brighton on 15th April and the wheel

recording two shows from Bristol on 29th April and two from West London

on the 13th of May. The MP for Bassetlaw has already

spoken. John Mann is piloting a Private Members' Bill through

Parliament to make it a crime to have sex with a prostitute under

the age of 21. Teenage prostitutes mainly work from the streets, the

most dangerous place to be. Many end up in care and on heroin.

Should it be illegal to have sex with a young adult? Why should this

work, John Mann? I think it will work because... It won't solve all

problems, but we think he will change the culture that is there

and create a breathing space to allow more interventions with very

vulnerable young women and with young men as well. I come from this

having done a lot of work in my area on drugs and young people who

are on drugs, and a lot of work as well on young people who have been

thrown out of home or have left home. But it is not working at the

moment. That is the problem. There is this get out clause of "I

thought she was 18". So what about people who use these services to

have a less of their regard for serve but -- for law and this new

statute? I think if you raise the threshold, it gives the police the

ability to do something about it. And I think it will have an impact,

because I think it will impact on people's behaviour. Charlie, you're

shaking your head. I wish it would. I am one of the statistics are 60

times more likely to end up in prison, home this or on the game. I

had managed all three before I was 21 and no law would have stopped me

from walking the streets. Why was that? Because I needed milk and

nappies for my baby. And furthermore, I would not have got

off the streets if that had been the case because brothels in the

80s back then were not regulated as such, but there was a code of

conduct that said, if you are under age, you cannot work here, so why

would not even have got off the streets. -- so I would not. George

McCoy, you are the author of McCoy's British Massage Parlour

Guide. Would it trouble you if the girl were under 18? Yes. If she was

18 or over? No, I don't think so. If we are talking about the girls

on the streets, there on laws adequate to safeguard them as far

as the kerb-crawling laws, which stop men from doing that now. And

then draws in Parliament which have been visited by the economy

taskforce to make sure people are paying tax, that they are all the

right age, that they are not from abroad. There of girls who are 18

and 19 and then men who are 18 and 19 going off to Afghanistan and

coming back in a coffin. There has to be an age when you become

responsible for what you do and that has been decided at 18. So if

you're allowed to die for your country, why should you not be

allowed to sell your body? At least when you join the Army, it is your

free choice. Nobody is forcing you to sign up. You don't believe there

is autonomy here? I don't believe everybody is forced... I am aware

some women choose that but a vast majority don't. Don't label them

with the same brush. I am not, but I have worked for 16 years with

women working on the streets. I came into this work with no

preconceptions but I have not met a single one who wants to be on the

streets. The other week, two women came in and they wanted to own

their lives but the situations they were in were so bad, so serious...

But you are talking about the streets and this will affect indoor

sex workers. There is a low incidence of indoor sex workers

being attacked. I will come to that, but will this change things?

will help, because it is about criminalising demand. Not the women

on the streets. If we can reduce demand, and I would really ask that

if this goes through, the Government looks at resourcing,

because in that time of austerity, the number of services for women on

the streets. It has to be housing... Changing the law doesn't change

people's behaviour. We don't have Sharia law! I would like the

campaign and the policy to be based on evidence. I am from the

International Union of Sex Workers. We would like to see policy based

on evidence. One point is that the average age of entry into

prostitution is 15. We know that is not actually correct. There is a

lot of material out of the Home Office and other material as well.

The Home Office material often contradict itself. Generally, you

were looking at 20 plus but for outdoor sex work you are looking at

about 16. In terms of talking about who commits crimes of violence

against people in the sex industry, the evidence is that it is not

people paying for sex. Criminalising people who pay for

sex and to treat the people they are paying with respect and

consideration makes no difference in terms of tackling crimes of

violence against us. It sends the message that our consent, to

discriminate against the consent... When it reduced demand?

evidence from Sweden is that it will not. Hang on. Prostitution has

halved in Sweden. It has been massively reduced and it has had a

huge impact on the women and they have put support services in place.

I totally support you were doing and I promise you, I really do

think what you do it is amazing, especially bearing in mind you are

getting your funding cut. I have seen that with many different

projects. You were doing the work for the Government but it is

positive intervention with people in care that would make the

difference, to stop them getting into it rather than turning around

their lives when they are. When did you get into it and how? It was

redundancy. There was an option. I look now and I think, of course

there was an auction, now I am older. That is why the bill will

help but it won't change anything. If you are in a situation where you

need to provide for a child, you are going to have to find a means

of doing that. But if there was more support earlier on in life, I

think that would help. A massive point as well is how prostitution

is perceived. Everyone is so quick to judge and kind of point the

finger, but yet we have programmes that glamorise it. We have 15-year-

olds, that it has been statistically proven that a

prostitute themselves, but these kinds of girls watching programmes

like that in the bedroom think that if they go and sell their body for

sex, they can live on the River Thames and have designer clothes

and this, that and the other. they have a moral framework in

their family and home? Of course they do. If I had seen that, I

would not have seen it as such a bad thing. And it is an issue of

materialism. It used to be that women went into prostitution out of

desperation. I understand it from both points of view. I went into

which for money but had I been a bit younger and in support... I was

in care myself and if somebody had put me in a position where they

said we can do this for you instead of trapping me out on the streets...

But that is what I am saying. there were some intervention where

people sat you down and help you. It helps at a younger age to

structure your life. I want to explore this. Would it have helped

from the point of view from the men paying if it had been illegal when

you're 19 to pay for sex with somebody who was 19. Would that

have stopped him? No. It won't stop them anyway, even if the ban goes

in place. More importantly, I know there are girls in the industry

working poor are also below 18 and nobody is doing anything about it.

-- who are also. The police aren't doing anything. There are foreign

girls as well and nothing is done. The police know about several

places where body can go and pay for sex and the girls are working

there under-aged and they are actually working under false

pretences and passing the money on to other people. It is not even for

themselves. What makes you think this will change, John? It is not

to solve all problems, but... will it solve any? I think it will.

George said no to 16, 17. 18, yes. If the threshold is raised to 21,

that will affect the behaviour of some of them. Changing the law

doesn't change behaviour! Would it change your behaviour? I think you

have to bear in mind that if somebody finds that they have had

sex with somebody between 18 and 21 and it was illegal, what are they

going to do? They are just going to disappear. They are not going to

reported to the police. If the law were changed to 21, would you make

sure the girl was 21? I don't... How what would we? Would you ask

her and she would save...? Excuse me, how old are you? How do you

intend to enforce this? How do you know a girl isn't under the age of

The question would not have been applicable for a long time, but

when... So you don't know whether you have been with a girl that is

under-age? I very much doubt it. 15-year-old may have been exploited.

I want to see vulnerable people on the streets not being killed. But

changing the law does not change people's behaviour. We need

positive intervention to stop a Rhodes going on the game. -- girls.

Good morning. Any law that helps young women not to go in this

direction, to reduce the number of women indulging in immoral

behaviour has to be a good thing. I think this is a society thing, not

just a case of changing one wall. - - one law. From a religious

perspective, we need to create an environment in which the family is

very strong and there is no need for a woman to feel that she needs

to sell her body. I like selling my body. I am very good at what I do

and I like it. What is your problem? You had your religion and

I respect that. I have a different one. Unfortunately, that means that

I have control over my body. The minute that young women are removed

from their parents, they want to be in the driving seat. The social

workers try to tell them what to do and a rebel. The reason they get

groomed is because someone else sits in the back seat. That is how

they get groomed. Durrell's on the street, a massive amount of been in

care. -- girls. There is a tendency to want to legislate. As a lawyer,

as someone who has gone through the system, there is enough hole there

to protect people. You do not need to waste this energy. -- enough law.

There is male prostitution issues as well. Historically, prostitutes

are people who were the forerunners of the women's liberation movement.

They were the first women to use contraceptives and lipstick, to

dress up. All, George... Logical conclusion is that we end up like

Iran. I am sorry but the majority of women that are out on the

streets today are really struggling with abuse and exploitation. I do

not doubt that is the case. I am personally concerns... The vast

majority of indoor sex workers are not attacked. The two, it is

difficult to separate... Please, let her answer. Often the women go

indoors and outdoors. The girls who are on drugs and work on the street

are not suitable to work in parlours. Parlour's need regular

people who will turn up for chefs. Is the answer not ultimately to

legalise and properly regulate? no. OK, forget that. Changing the

law does not change behaviour. Proper regulation? Very simply, I

am totally in favour of early intervention. We have done a lot in

my area and than in the middle of trying to get that to happen. The

people I meet, young boys and young girls, who are involved in this, do

not want to do it. They are doing it because they have had major

problems in their lives. The interventions have not been good

enough. By raising VAT threshold, that create more space. Firstly, it

will mean that the behaviour of some clients will change. -- that

threshold. Do you seriously think it is a tidal wave of human nature?

Do you think the police would go against some of these men and get

them and make efforts to do so, in the current climate? They will look

upon it as, we have other things to do. In areas like mine, or the

police would act. If they felt that was going on. They would arrest the

men and charge them. That in itself would change the behaviour. It is

only one small part of dealing with the problem. I'm seeing lots of

Honourable young people. On the streets! There are 18 to 21-year-

old its... In this criminalising girls? We have seen what can work

to stop violence against sex workers. It is prioritised as a

hate crime in the Midlands, and they have achieved a 90% conviction

rate for crimes of violence against St sex workers. One of the things

we are campaigning for his for the roll-out of that model of policing

nationwide. That successfully targets crimes of violence. If you

talk to a wide range of specialist services, outside the framework on

the streets, and I accept that many of the Beyond the Streets project

work fairly well. Talking to projects over the last couple of

days, overwhelmingly they have said that this work, such a law, if

passed, would impede the work to support and protect people. It

would mean people are further marginalised and excluded. Into the

shadows. And the premises that included people under 21 would no

longer give them access. As a person of faith, the main thing in

this regard, the main cause of this, I think that marriage is the only

way to uplifted the status of humanity. What a lovely world we

would love them. This wonderful nirvana where religion is good and

no one is a hypocrite and everyone goes home to their wife. We should

look at the cause. If we're talking about a faithful marriage, fateful

marriage does not mean not fulfilling physical desires.

Faithful marriage really protects women socially, morally,

financially. Protects? It traps us! You have made a strong point.

this is very simplistic, but I would go back to the schools and

education and create more jobs for people so they do not feel that

they need to. Can I ask over here now, Charlie, you can go to that

special dinner party we're having later on! Helen, the girls that are

still doing this, what kind of money are they making? They are

making a lot of money. How much? Give us an idea. It is important,

because I know goals that are over 21 that will continue to do it for

as long as they can. What are they making? Up to �3,000 a week.

you're over 21, you are at a stage where you could make that decision

for yourself. What is more important is that there are Corus

of 21 and under that are not mentally stable and been forced

into doing it. There is an element of force behind that. But the money

still drives them. There are different angles to it. I do not

see the problem with somebody Under 21 doing it. If that is their

choice. If someone is being forced, and if they feel like there is no

option. The ban only comes in handy if the police actually enforces it.

But banning does not increase the choices people have, it does not

increase the opportunities. It does not increase the range of services

available. Actually, the majority of services do not take the view

that you do. This gentleman here. Society is what it is. Demand has

never diminished. The oldest profession and all that. I think we

should be concentrating on the girls who have been trafficked, and

brought into this country and manipulated by criminal gangs. We

have spoken about the voluntary aspect, or semi voluntary aspect of

the situation. Really, that is where the focus and attention has

got to be. Grooming and trafficking are two issues. Those are

vulnerable women. I am supporting what you're saying, in the main,

but the biggest problem is that everyone here, bar a couple of

people and people-watching, thinks that prostitutes are all the same,

that they are all vulnerable and on drugs and under 18s. There are

200,000 women actually in the UK working off internet portals right

now, choosing to do so. This is genuinely a personal choice,

autonomy? The indoor trade. There is separations. No answer says

otherwise. We have to recognise that there were so -- reports out

last year but said that the UK is the sex trafficking capital of the

world. We have 122 serious acts of sexual violence against women every

year. We did not have this 20 years ago. That is an immigration issue.

We have problems with approaching issues of sex and sexuality in the

West. Were did not have this problem in the '80s.

trafficking has always been around. Who is a tougher opponent, Charlie

or Tommy Robinson? We opened the floodgates and led to

many people in. I have worked directly with operation ramparts.

OK, do you see a lot of trafficked Corus? Trafficking is defined by

the Home Office as taking a lady to her place of work. -- girls. If you

want to work at a massage parlour and you do not fancy the idea of

your uncle coming into the parlour where you might work, you might

decide to work further away, say Preston. You will contact a parlour

in Preston and they will send their brother around to pick you up at

the station. He is guilty of trafficking you because he has

taken you to the parlour. Are the figures inflated? Of course. There

are no women in my area who were trafficked. I bet I could find one.

I will show you where to look. I promise you. There are five main

groups of people moving them around. The men and the young women that I

have dealt with our people who have had major problems. The majority

have been on heroin. That is why they are involved in this trade.

Not in the street trade, not in my area. What is needed in my area,

and has worked, his early intervention. What has not helped

is the fact that the trade is legal. We have helped it easier to get

people at 16 and 17, and younger, and get the interventions in. The

19 and 20 Urals, the same space should be there. -- 20 year-olds.

Thank you for braving the gauntlet this morning. Thank you for being a