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Good morning. Great to see you. Welcome to The Big Questions live | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
from the West London Academy. On Wednesday the judge told the nine | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
Asian man convicted in the Rochdale grooming and multiple rape case | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
that they had treated the victims as though they were worthless and | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
beyond any respect and one of the factors leading to that was the | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
fact they were not part of their community or religion. Our first | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
big question, should the Pakistani community put its own house in | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
order? Mohammed Shafique says the elders of the community have | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
ignored the problems for years and refuse to see it as their job to | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
change attitudes. Parliament is currently | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
investigating the investigators. Are private eyes too free to | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
intrude on what should be private matters, like whether a client's | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
husband is having an affair? And is it right to spy on your | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
spouse? Rebecca Jane spied on her former husband herself and then set | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
up a business to investigate other people's straying partners. | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
The General Medical Council has issued draft guidance on how | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
doctors should handle their personal beliefs at work. Should | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
doctors be forced to act against conscience? Dr Richard Scott | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
believes it is wrong that he is facing professional sanction | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
because he discussed whether faith in Christ might help the patient. | :01:42. | :01:51. | |
Welcome to The Big Questions. The police in Rochdale news that | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
Asian men had been grooming vulnerable young girls for sex | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
since 2008 when a 15 year-old victim told them what had happened | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
to her. It took until May, 2011, when Nazir Afzal was appointed | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
Chief Crown Prosecutor for the North West before the law did | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
anything about it. He said that imported cultural baggage played a | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
role in this terrible crime. The convicted men all thought that | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
women are lesser beings. Should the Pakistani community put its own | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
house in order? It is a question that has been debated one way or | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
another this week. Lots of people are uncomfortable with this | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
question, Mohammed Shafique. Is it a fair question? Yes, it is. The | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
facts are that out of 77 recent convictions, 67 a Pakistani man. | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
80% of sexual offenders in terms of online crooning of Wight. We have | :02:47. | :02:56. | |
to put it into context. -- online grooming are white people. So why | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
is this anything to do with the Pakistani community? As a community | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
we have to reflect why it is that there are people among us that big | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
that white girls are worthless and they can use and abuse them in this | :03:07. | :03:16. | |
abhorrent way. Just white girls? actually think it is a race issue. | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
I have been stopped many times in the community... I live in Rochdale, | :03:20. | :03:27. | |
unlike some people commentating on this. I live in the community and I | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
can tell you that there is a problem with a minority of people | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
who think that white girls are worthless. Let's explore this a | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
little bit more. British Pakistanis have been saying exactly what you | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
are saying. Some have been agreeing with you. And a man who has been | :03:47. | :03:55. | |
working in this area who you know has used the expression of cultural | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
dissonance. They come from a socially conservative, rural | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
culture with no emphasis on sexual gratification, into a liberal, | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
perhaps over sexualise culture, our own culture. Explain that. You said | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
before that we don't talk about sex. That is a problem. We don't show | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
affection. My mother and my late father, if they were in the same | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
room, would not show affection to each other, and as a community we | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
have got this baggage. I would caution what that man said. That is | :04:31. | :04:41. | |
this. Previous cases of second and third generation Pakistani men, | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
they were actually born in the UK. Placing too much emphasis on the | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
cultural baggage is quite dangerous. Is there any cultural baggage here? | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
Are we unfairly targeting a community? A vile, degenerate | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
person who will prey on innocent girls does not take race into | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
account. They go after girls, simple. Saying they go after white | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
girls any is bang out of order because you are turning it into a | :05:08. | :05:17. | |
race issue when it clearly is not. It is a race issue. It is not. It | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
is important to realise this. You are diverting from the at all | :05:21. | :05:28. | |
problem, which is that we have file, degenerate men calming young girls. | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
-- the actual problem. Because they are Pakistani they are not more | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
likely to do this. They picked up a web they could, which so happened | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
to be white gills. Some have gone after Bangladeshi girls. It does | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
not matter who they are, they do not think about race. I think race | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
is a central issue to this. I am not going to talk about speculation. | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
If you look at the facts, 77 recent convictions, of which 67 of | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
Pakistani men. As a member of the Pakistani community, we have to be | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
honest and open. One of the things that I called for in the Times | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
newspaper this week was for the leaders to speak out openly and for | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
the police to report to the main mosque in Rochdale, making some | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
powerful points. We have got to deal with this. You can look at it | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
the other way. Young white girls are more likely to be out on the | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
streets at night, so some people might think that white communities | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
have to get their act together. suppose that was the second part of | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
my argument in my piece. As a community, we have to reflect on | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
why white girls are wandering the streets at 3 o'clock in the morning. | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
Absolutely. This is victim blaming. You cannot look at young, | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
vulnerable girls... I take your point, that communities have to put | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
their house in order. Every community has to get their house in | :06:55. | :07:02. | |
order. If it is cultural, the culture that affects young girls | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
and enables sexual predators to abuse them is called patriarchy and | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
sexism. There is no culture in this world where girls are valued on a | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
par with poise and I would like to say this. Why did nobody talk about | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
the endemic sexual abuse of children and adult women by the | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
clergy as a white problem? There is no such thing as a Pakistani | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
problem. Well, it was spoken about as a Catholic problem. People said | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
the Catholic Church needed to get its act together. But we did not | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
talk about white men abusing white children, but men abusing children. | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
There is no question that some police have been reluctant to act | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
on these cases involving Pakistani child abusers because they are | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
feared they will be labelled racist. That is something for white people | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
to look at. If we are so scared about being called racist that we | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
allow 15 year-old girls to be prostituted and raped, then there | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
is something wrong with white people as well. You have been on | :08:03. | :08:10. | |
this for a long time, writing about this for a long time, haven't you? | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
Is there any cultural baggage here, Andrew? Firstly, let's get the | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
facts right. The vast majority of child sex offenders in this country | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
of white men acting on their own. If you look at offences where the | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
victims of pre-pubescent, where the victims of boys, where it runs in | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
the family, then it is usually white men acting alone. What is | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
different about this, and when the Government ordered an assessment | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
last year of St grooming, they found that in a country that is 6% | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
Asian, at 46% of all offenders were Asian. When it came to grips, it | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
was over half in cultures that are 6% Asian. -- when it came two | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
groups. This has become normalised group activity. They have not been | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
cases of groups of white men being convicted. This is not organised | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
crime gangs in Rochdale, they were respected members of the community. | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
This activity was carried out between work colleagues, friends, | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
relatives, with girls being shared around. You could not do that in | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
the white community. There are an awful lot of paedophiles, but if | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
you share that with colleagues and friends, somebody would say there | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
is something wrong. That is the mindset that needs to be challenged. | :09:29. | :09:37. | |
What is that minds that? -- minds that? It is the mindset that has | :09:37. | :09:45. | |
normalised the abuse of young girls. It is not a mindset that is | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
acceptable within a small subsection of the criminal section | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
of the Pakistani community. It is the Pakistani community that has to | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
sort themselves out. You feel strongly about that? You are saying | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
it is the Pakistani modus operandi to abuse children. It is a criminal | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
sub-sector. It is a criminal problem within society, not the | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
Pakistani community. That is how we have to look at it. If you are | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
focusing on ways, then we are diverting from the fact of what | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
support mechanisms do we have in place for young girls? -- focusing | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
on race. What is actually wrong in society that we all need to deal | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
with? It is not saying that you Pakistanis have a problem and you | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
have to deal with it, come back next year. We all have to deal with | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
it. I will come back to you in the second. I do think that one reason | :10:38. | :10:47. | |
why these girls were all white is because the Asian girls are better | :10:47. | :10:56. | |
protected by their families. If it were that this gang had got | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
involved with Asian girls, they may have finished up with their throat | :11:00. | :11:08. | |
cut. That is not true. Can I finish? I spent 16 years working on | :11:08. | :11:16. | |
this sort of thing as a Member of Parliament. I worked on cases 10 | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
years ago. It was identical to what has actually been put before us | :11:20. | :11:27. | |
this last week. Why are they have Greater Manchester police are | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
saying they did not know anything about this, I don't know because I | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
knew about it 10 years ago. -- why on earth? There was a reluctance to | :11:36. | :11:45. | |
talk about it. We have to take into account of the fact that there is | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
much use my own part of the Pakistani community. -- Maggie | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
Smith. They have that in all cultures. It is bang out of order | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
to focus on the Pakistani community. What about the pain culture in the | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
white community? I am sorry, can I just tell you something that | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
happened in Bradford? To get women Asian councillors we had to have a | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
rule that stopped the Asian meant selecting more men to contest their | :12:16. | :12:24. | |
seats. -- Asian men. We now have five excellent women Labour | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
councillors who are Asian. Let's get back to the victims. You want | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
to talk about the victims. I agree with what he was saying and I | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
respect the work that you have done on this issue because it needs to | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
be exposed. But the problem I have with the idea that Asian girls are | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
better protected in the home is that most child sexual abuse occurs | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
in the home. This is hidden. It is endemic. We have a problem with the | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
devaluing of girls in every single culture. I do think there are | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
problems in certain cultures where there is a fundamentalist religion | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
and it is worse for women, but I would not so those girls are | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
protected in the home. They are not on the streets, but many are abused | :13:10. | :13:17. | |
in the home. The problem is the focus on the word community. There | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
is no homogenous Pakistani community, any more than there is a | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
white community, and Asian community. The frame of the | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
question is that the Pakistani house should get its house in order, | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
which is silly. People do not want to police their own communities. | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
That is the top of the police and the social services and the CPS to | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
deal with this issue. And they have failed, no doubt about it. The idea | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
that the Community should police itself opens them up to more abuse. | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
Then you have got local community leaders, just like the case you | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
mentioned in the Jewish community in New York, at and in that case | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
the Orthodox rabbi leaders themselves went to the police and | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
said they would deal with that problem in their own community. | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
Similar to the Catholic Church? Exactly. If you make it into a | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
community, cultural thing, you are making it worse. You are saying | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
that the community leaders have to deal with it. So it is counter- | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
productive? We have to take a step back at look at the facts. I hear | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
what you are all saying, but the reality is that we have got a | :14:26. | :14:34. | |
problem. Let me finish. When you say the facts, that is not true. | :14:34. | :14:43. | |
Let me finish. I have listened to you quietly. Not that quietly! | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
point is that we have got a problem. Looking at the facts, I am not | :14:47. | :14:55. | |
going to look at speculation of people arrested. 77 people arrested, | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
67 Pakistani men. We have to look at the wider context. This week we | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
saw eight men convicted of child abuse in Edinburgh. So does the | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
Scottish Community need to get their house in order? No mention | :15:09. | :15:16. | |
whatsoever in their newspapers. We have to be careful how we deal with | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
this. I have understood that we have got a problem. The Pakistani | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
community in Rochdale has been very vocal. You have been accused of | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
playing into the hands of the BNP. They were due to come to Rochdale | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
yesterday and they have not turned up. I think this is a direct result | :15:33. | :15:43. | |
:15:43. | :15:47. | ||
By dealing with this issue now, we have stopped the BNP... Why is he | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
in some ways giving them...? Because he is making it into a race | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
issue. If you say that, and you're suddenly pointing to a bunch of | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
Scottish guys in Scotland, that is also a race issue. If you're then | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
talking about Irish Catholics abusing young kids, why is it not | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
an Irish Catholic issue? It is a male issue. Across a lot of | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
communities, the culture is, we're going to abuse, and then once the | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
kids get abused, then they hide it. So, the idea that it is a cultural | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
issue... There are conservative elements in any culture. If you get | :16:26. | :16:33. | |
a situation where the people in those communities, the so-called | :16:33. | :16:40. | |
community leaders, are protected, that is a problem in itself. | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
reason this is a cultural problem is because, unlike I suspect what | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
happened in Edinburgh, here, you have people who, in the opinion of | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
professionals close to that case, had a schizophrenic existence, | :16:55. | :17:03. | |
where conduct which would be unthinkable... Let him finish. | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
conduct somehow became morally acceptable with corrupted white | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
girls. It is not just white girls, it is what is available. And in | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
this country, out on the streets, it does tend to be white girl's who | :17:15. | :17:22. | |
are scene. The fact is, I am working with a family in the West | :17:22. | :17:30. | |
Midlands... I am working with a family which is a Sikh family, | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
whose daughter has been through exactly the same process, an | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
absolutely desperate process. I do think there are hidden stories | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
which have not come out yet, but I do think, I'm afraid, if you have | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
an attitude that something is permissible with one section of | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
this society, and not permissible with your own, and I am not saying | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
that is a majority. You make a generalisation, and then you say it | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
is a minority. Look, most Muslim women in the UK are abused by | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
Muslim men. You know why? Simply because most rape happens within | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
families. So the idea that somehow they see one group of women as | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
untouchable, it is just completely idiotic. Some of the women abused | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
in these cases were Bangladeshi women. So, the idea that they are | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
specifically picking out Englishwomen and trying to rake | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
them is silly, because, if they had the opportunity to exploit Muslim | :18:29. | :18:37. | |
women or Pakistani women, they would do it. This is what I was | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
trying to say, the communities in our northern towns would jump on | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
such characters very quickly indeed if it was found out that they were | :18:46. | :18:55. | |
having relationships of this type. It would be self-policing. Yes, it | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
would be self-policing, and I am not in favour of that. Let me | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
finish what I'm saying, for goodness sake. What has been said | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
goodness sake. What has been said already is that we have to look to | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
the communities themselves, not to police, but just to change | :19:11. | :19:20. | |
attitudes. That's all I am asking. But there have been several cases | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
where cases of rape by people from those communities have been hidden | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
away, so this idea that if Muslim women get raped by Muslim men, that | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
they would get their throat cut, or that the men would police their own | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
communities, is silly, because actually, there have been loads of | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
cover-ups within the communities, even within madrassas. There was a | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
report about 10 years ago, with a bunch of Muslim clerics saying, we | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
have child abuse within our communities, and we need to deal | :19:49. | :19:59. | |
:19:59. | :20:03. | ||
with the problem. So, there is a lot of cover-up. Good morning to | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
you... Good morning. I think it is dangerous to create an atmosphere | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
where you're using race as a determining factor when you're | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
talking about criminality. These are criminals, and it has been said | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
by a number of people that we need to focus on their criminality. Yes, | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
there are Common, shared values amongst these criminals which got | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
them working together to do what they did. However, you cannot label | :20:27. | :20:37. | |
whole community by that. Over here, let's go to you. I agree with what | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
you're saying, but these things are multi-faceted, so at the same time, | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
you cannot ignore the race issue. There is clearly an issue within | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
that community, the facts are that 67 convictions have been made in | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
that community. I come from Derby, and there have been convictions in | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
Derby, and there are issues within that community, you cannot just | :21:00. | :21:09. | |
ignore them. This kind of thing could happen anywhere, couldn't it? | :21:09. | :21:17. | |
Of course it could, and it probably does. We talk about child sex abuse, | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
but what they are also doing is actually passing the girls around | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
for money. There are men who are willing to pay for sex from a child. | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
And raped them repeatedly, it is just horrific, let's not lose sight | :21:29. | :21:37. | |
of that. A simple freedom of information request shows that out | :21:37. | :21:46. | |
of 53 grooming cases, five cases were Asian, the rest were white. | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
We're saying, let's extrapolate from the 67 cases, it is a | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
Pakistani problem. How can you do that? We have research groups who | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
have spent time on this, saying the data is not reliable enough to | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
extrapolate it as a Pakistani problem. I have already said, if | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
you look at online grooming, it is something like 95% white people, of | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
all ages, of all backgrounds, from 18 to 80, Oxford dons to road | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
sweepers. There is a very specific model going on, which has been | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
going on for 20 years, in the north and the Midlands. We seem to have | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
agreed that everybody would like to change the mindsets of the | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
individuals who are doing this. We had the quote at the start of the | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
programme, about forced marriage, it was said that some people are | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
saying this is just going to be another stick to beat the Muslim | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
community. I am saying, we should be carrying our own stick. In a | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
society where the police, the social services, everybody in | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
authority, is too scared to confirm what is going on, and admit that | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
there is a need to understand it, then the only people who are really | :23:01. | :23:11. | |
:23:11. | :23:11. | ||
going to get to grips with it are the brave people like Nazir Afzal | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
who are standing up and saying, who are standing up and saying, | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
this is wrong. We have to leave it there. If you would like to have | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
your say about that debate, log on to the website, you will find links | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
to the discussion online. We are also debating live this morning, is | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
it right to spy on your spouse? And also, should doctors be forced to | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
act against conscience? Tell us what you think about those topics, | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
too. You can send us any general comments you would like to make as | :23:38. | :23:48. | |
:23:48. | :23:51. | ||
It is spring, the wedding season, brides and grooms are promising to | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
love each other in sickness and in health, for better for worse, and | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
forsaking all others. But what if one of those promises has been | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
broken? Is it your right to discover the truth, to hire | :24:02. | :24:10. | |
somebody to spy on your spouse? Well, Rebecca Jane, a few years ago, | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
you suspected your husband was having an affair - what happened? | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
tried to hire private investigators, and I found them to be really cold | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
and hard and wanted lots of money it off me. So I got my friends to | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
help, we did it ourselves. Does the private investigator community need | :24:28. | :24:35. | |
to get its act in order? But you found certain attitudes which you | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
were uncomfortable within the way that they operate? Yes, I rang up, | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
I poured out my heart, and they did not care in the slightest. They | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
were just calculating the money, and it was it. And so I did not | :24:47. | :24:55. | |
hire any of them. What did you do instead? We did the DIY detective | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
thing, we spider on him, a lot, and we found out a lot as well. What | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
did you find out? He was having liaisons with about five or six | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
women, and I was seven months pregnant at the time. It was an | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
amazing period of my life. I bet you were somewhat slightly upset. | :25:16. | :25:24. | |
was not very thrilled. Five or six? Yes. And when you confronted him? | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
He went into utter denial, a bit like a lot of my clients' partners | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
do now. But we had some decent evidence, and probably to this day | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
he will deny it until he is blue in the face. What kind of evidence did | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
you go there then, and what do you go the now? We do surveillance a | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
lot, and that is what we did back then as well. But I also owned his | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
mobile phone, so I was able to check who he was ringing, when he | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
was telling me that his battery had died and everything. Have you ever | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
listened to a voicemail message, Mr Murdoch?! I have nothing to do with | :26:04. | :26:10. | |
the News of the World. Have you ever bugged the telephone? No. | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
you ever read a text message? do you mean? Would you for example | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
have read his text messages at the time? Yes, but I owned his | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
telephone. It is interesting, because we do not know what we are | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
able to do, and what we are not able to do. Absolutely, people | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
misunderstand that there are laws and it is criminal to do certain | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
things. You cannot break into your husband or wife's e-mails, even if | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
you have the home computer together. If you go into his password and | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
look at his e-mails, that is illegal. If you look at people's | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
text messages, that is illegal. If they leave it open and you happen | :26:52. | :27:02. | |
:27:02. | :27:02. | ||
to glance at it, that's OK. There was a case about a year ago which | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
set the boundaries for us lawyers. We cannot use 99% of what private | :27:09. | :27:17. | |
detectives go and find out these days. The thing is that if you | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
break into your husband's briefcase and take out those documents and | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
then come to your lawyer, put them on the desk and say, look what I | :27:24. | :27:30. | |
have found, the lawyer has to say, I cannot even look at ease. What | :27:30. | :27:37. | |
about going through his pockets? What if you put it in the wash and | :27:37. | :27:46. | |
then go through the pockets? you cannot even look at it! You're | :27:46. | :27:54. | |
not allowed to do that? No, because of we have this human rights act, | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
which says they have a right to privacy. And we have been given | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
directives about what we can and cannot use. If you put a tracker on | :28:02. | :28:09. | |
a car, it is a bit of a grey area. What can you do, then? You know, it | :28:09. | :28:17. | |
is really difficult. Surveillance is one of the easiest things. | :28:17. | :28:25. | |
Watching somebody going into a flat or something? There's a lot less | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
definite boundaries in that kind of thing. But there are a lot of | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
things which we cannot do. We have to constantly speak to the Data | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
Protection people. At the end of the day, you need to think about | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
why this is happening. This is not the fault of our clients. This is | :28:41. | :28:49. | |
the fault of somebody else, potentially, until proved otherwise. | :28:49. | :28:55. | |
And Christmas is your busiest time? Before Christmas is the quietest | :28:55. | :29:02. | |
time, and after Christmas is most definitely the busiest. Terry | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
Prendergast, chief executive of Marriage Care, coming from a | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
Christian perspective - you think this is deceitful, don't you? | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
deceitful, I can understand why people do it. But for me it is a | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
classic example of the solution becoming part of the problem. The | :29:20. | :29:26. | |
difficulty I think we have in our culture is, we do not teach people | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
how to build relationships. In hiring a private detective, what do | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
you want to achieve, do you want evidence which give you the courage | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
to confront your partner or do you want evidence to actually break the | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
relationship up? If it is about confronting your partner about what | :29:43. | :29:53. | |
:29:53. | :29:53. | ||
he is doing, or she, then I think that my suggestion would be, cut | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
out the middleman and save yourself hundreds of pounds and do the | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
confrontation yourself. I know it is very difficult. We have loads | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
and loads of people who have been coming to our organisation for help | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
over more than 60 years, and infidelity is one of the biggest | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
hurdles to get over. A personal, intimate relationship is probably | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
one of the most difficult decisions you make in your life. At that | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
point you're under the influence of a Class A drug called Romans, so | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
none of us are able to make a rational decision. -- called | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
romance. It is at that point that people will often try to find | :30:31. | :30:41. | |
:30:41. | :30:45. | ||
This is true, I agree with you, but our clients on in no way naive. We | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
deal with barristers, people of exceptionally high intelligence. If | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
they could talk to their partners, and their partners would come | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
straight out with everything that was going on, they would not call | :30:55. | :31:02. | |
us up. There is mediation between this. I agree for some people to | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
talk directly to their partner and confront them is incredibly | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
uncomfortable. But by going to a relationship counsellor, if someone | :31:10. | :31:17. | |
that can mediate between a couple... As a psychologist, I watch what | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
people are saying, how they are saying it, body language, I can | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
work closely with a couple to tease out information that they have | :31:25. | :31:32. | |
tried to deny it up until that point. If you go straight from I | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
cannot confront them to a private investigator... I cannot think of a | :31:36. | :31:43. | |
single couple that has done this and come out happy with the results. | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
Are you a marriage guidance counsellor? I wish! You get | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
everybody. They pour out their life stories, that is just the way that | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
it is. If they could talk to one another, and they often have talked | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
to each other and people go into denial, and it is not a perfect | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
world. If they find out that they have been to a private investigator, | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
they have every right legally and otherwise... Some people cannot go | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
to a counsellor because the other partner will not go. What we always | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
say to women in particular, when they want a private detective to | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
find out, we always say it what are you going to do with the | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
information? Are you going to leave your partner? Do you really want to | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
know? Others will say yes, some will say they don't. It is | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
fundamental in a relationship. The things that support any | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
relationship, trust, respect, communication. That is all broken | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
down. In a perfect world. No, in every world. In every relationship | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
there should be that and there probably was at the beginning and | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
you have to find it with your partner again somehow. I think the | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
last possible resort in solving any relationship, whether it you talk | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
to a friend, the church, a councillor, a coach, a psychologist, | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
the last possible resort should be finding a private investigator. | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
that is when they come to us. They are not bringing us up to find out | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
if their partner is playing with fluffy bunnies in a field somewhere. | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
They are ringing us up because there is a major serious problem | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
and they have nowhere else to go. Do you think this is right | :33:24. | :33:31. | |
ethically? We work with victims of press intrusion and there is a | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
contentious issue about whether accessing emails on a family | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
computer is unlawful. I have had different advice from what you said. | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
What is in no doubt is that industrial scale fishing | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
expeditions on ordinary members of the public and even celebrities and | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
certainly their families is not lawful. That is a significant | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
bridge and it is widespread of the Data Protection Act. -- significant | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
breach. This was across all media group's 10 years ago, not just News | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
International, and we don't believe that those practices ended when a | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
particular investigator was raided. There is good evidence coming out | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
today that there is a very big private investigation industry and | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
we should all be alarmed. Rebecca Jane is not going to appear | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
before the Leveson Inquiry! No, but we should be alarmed about the | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
extent of the private investigator industry. They put Trojans on | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
computers. Lawfully they say if it is a marital commuter, not the word | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
computer of the husband, for example... I am just warning people | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
that this is going on and this is one end of that industry. It goes | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
into insurance companies using private investigators, and I think | :34:44. | :34:54. | |
Parliament needs to look at this again. OK. Back there? Personally I | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
believe that, like my friend did say, what is the motive in all | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
these things? Is it divorce? What is the key thing? I believe people | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
need to come to a place whereby they talk among themselves and the | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
community leaders come together to mediate and know what is going on | :35:15. | :35:23. | |
before these things are set up. The final outcome, you may not like it. | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
Would you prefer not to know? actually answer that. The general | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
motive when people ring us up, and it is a common misconception, | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
people do want to stay together. They don't come to us and say they | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
what evidence to leave their partner. It is unusual that they | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
wanted for the divorce. Do people come to you because this is back | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
upon his having an affair, and it was established that they were, and | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
there has been a happy ending? a lot of people. Probably 60% of | :35:53. | :36:01. | |
our clients. Are all of your clients women? No. Are the vast | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
majority women? I think it is interesting with patriarchy. | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
slightly more women. It is really difficult, and I have found as | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
professionally, for people to sit down and talk about a relationship | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
that has gone wrong. It is difficult and painful to do that. | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
The problem for men is that we find it more difficult than women. For | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
whatever reason. Exactly. And we live in a society that stigmatises | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
relationship difficulties. Stigmatises relationships breaking | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
down, despite the fact it is costing us 45 billion to the | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
taxpayer. We are making no inroads at all and I think has meant we | :36:38. | :36:47. | |
need to do something to understand that the people we live with a | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
working and communicating in a different way. -- the many to do | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
something. I think if you have this level of mistrust then things are | :36:56. | :37:03. | |
seriously wrong. I think that is naive. Some people are not in a | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
position that you are. Some people are so frightened they need to know | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
the information. I'm not saying it is necessarily right, but they do | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
need to know. What is very important, there is so much | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
advertised on the internet, people downloading things to stop spying | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
on their husbands and wives, their telephones and everything, they are | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
illegal. -- to start spying. This is not funny, they could get into | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
trouble, they could go to prison. They need to be educated. | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
getting some electronic device? absolutely. I don't want to give | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
you the impression that I think that the work that you are doing is | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
in anyway questionable. I think they are private detectives are | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
doing exemplary work that is a great public service. But for many | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
women that have been cheated on, who desperately need to keep hold | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
of half of the marital home, need to sort out child custody issues, | :38:02. | :38:10. | |
then perhaps it is the only way that they can go. It is about trust. | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
I think there is a right in any relationship, and I am listening to | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
the practicalities and the legalities, and at the end of the | :38:17. | :38:24. | |
day... Of men are not very communicative at many times. They | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
tend to be the ones whose behaviour changes, especially when they are | :38:30. | :38:36. | |
having an affair. How? You notice a significant difference. They might | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
be troubled at work, they may not be well, they might have financial | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
concerns that they do not want to discuss. They become withdrawn. | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
could be gambling? I absolutely. Ladies' underwear? That is more | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
likely to be an affair! But as a woman, your intuition tells you | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
that a man's behaviour is changing but not necessarily because of an | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
affair. You go to a private investigator and they find he is | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
not having an affair. I don't know how you come back from that when | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
you have made it that huge step. That is a very good point and it | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
deserves some appreciation. What happens when your partner says to | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
you that I hired a private investigator to see if you are | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
having an affair and you are not! Let's go out for dinner! They never | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
say that. These are secrets and lies. I will say that whenever we | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
deliver a result, it people generally are happy in one way or | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
another. Relieved that they are not going insane, because people are | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
tortured every single day and they have nowhere else to turn. They | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
have, but they choose to turn to you but carry on. They have | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
generally tried it. I am sure your clients have not been to | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
relationship boating before they come to you. That is ridiculous. | :39:57. | :40:06. | |
relationship coaching. In how many couples where only one partner | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
agrees to come in? I see it all the time. Somebody said why don't you | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
go to the community leaders, most of us don't have community leaders | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
any more. They go to their GP. All too often the other half will not | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
come in. I agree. But I would like to see people coming to a | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
relationship counsellor when they sense there is something wrong, or | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
not right rather, as opposed to it having gone wrong. You are a | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
relationship counsellor at so you want people to go to relationship | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
counsellors. You are private detective and so you want people to | :40:42. | :40:49. | |
go to detective! Can I correct something that is wrong? I don't | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
think that people will face present in the case of spouses. There is | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
nothing in terms of the misuse of data protection for that. I don't | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
know of any spouse who would face present but I am saying that | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
Parliament needs to look at it again. -- face prison. Not for | :41:10. | :41:20. | |
:41:20. | :41:21. | ||
partners and spouses, but the industry. Thank you. You can log on | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
to our website to follow the links to continue the discussion online. | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
And now, it should doctors be forced to act against conscience? | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
If you would like to be in the audience for a future show, you can | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
email us. Next week, a pre-recorded special from London, debating just | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
one big question. Is there a difference between a cult and a | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
religion? We will be live from Glasgow for the last show of the | :41:50. | :41:58. | |
series on the June 3rd. The draft guidelines on the General | :41:58. | :42:04. | |
Medical Council contain rules to stop doctors talking about faith, | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
make them recommend treatments like contraception and abortion but they | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
believe are morally wrong, and to make sure doctors of the treatment | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
to patients with lifestyles that they disapprove of like alcoholics | :42:14. | :42:24. | |
:42:24. | :42:24. | ||
and drug takers. -- offer treatment. So should doctors be able to work | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
against conscience? You are involved in a case that is on-going | :42:28. | :42:35. | |
and we cannot divulge the details because of patient confidentiality. | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
A patient with problems that conventional medicine had not | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
solved and you suggested that Christ had helped you and you | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
suggested that might help him. And everything hit the fan, didn't it? | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
It did. But there was a complaint. Yes, by his mother, who was not in | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
the consultation. The patient reflected back that I only spoke | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
about uses, which was not accurate. We had had a lengthy consultation | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
before that. First of all, I looked at his faith, different from mine, | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
discovered it was not helping and said that over the years as a GP I | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
had discovered that in my life and in the lives of my patients, that | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
hundreds of people have been massively helped by taking on | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
aspects of the Christian faith. Praying, going to church, becoming | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
Christians. So why are offered him something that I was convinced | :43:25. | :43:31. | |
would help her. -- I offered him. You are only the messenger, nobody | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
is forced to do anything. I offered it, he did not like it, that is | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
fine, and six weeks later I got a letter from the GMC. If you went to | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
a confirmed atheist Dr, and he said that you are deluded and you think | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
you have got an imaginary friend and you don't, were to be offended? | :43:52. | :44:00. | |
He would be utterly wrong. -- would you be offended? Would he be | :44:00. | :44:07. | |
utterly wrong to say that? He can share his view. But I don't agree. | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
There is a variety of views on a community that I sit on, so I am | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
not speaking for them, but your primary concern should be the care | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
of the patient. What you are not allowed to do, and this is very | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
clear, is impose your own personal beliefs, religious or political. | :44:23. | :44:31. | |
Let me finish. This is important. We can pursue your point in a | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
minute. You are not supposed to impose a personal beliefs on | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
patients, especially when they are vulnerable. And you have said in | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
interviews on the radio, including on Nicky Campbell's radio programme, | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
that you have done this for hundreds if not thousands of | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
patients. You said to this gentleman that you thought his fate | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
could not help him and only Jesus could help people with this stuff. | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
-- is faith. If you have that view, and you can, then you should be a | :45:02. | :45:12. | |
:45:12. | :45:14. | ||
preacher, and not giving it in an First of all, you're not accurate. | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
I did not say it in the way that you phrased it. I stated that | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
Christianity, you might find, could help you more than your current | :45:21. | :45:31. | |
fate. The second point was, over the 13 years that I have been a GP, | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
I have seen hundreds and hundreds of patients massively helped by | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
fate, which is because in my view, and in their view, there is a God | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
who really cares for them. Statistics show that health is | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
massively helped by religion. The great majority of papers which have | :45:48. | :45:58. | |
been written on this subject have been about the Christian religion. | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
Sarah Jarvis, you have got a pained expression on your face. I have to | :46:02. | :46:08. | |
say, I find this quite shocking. It is clear that you're a caring | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
doctor. Yes, part of our job is to talk to our patients and to help | :46:13. | :46:19. | |
them. The fact is that first and foremost, we are there as doctors. | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
People come to see me as a doctor. If I am going to tell them that | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
something is right, then I need to be able to give them all the | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
information. We work on a lot of programmes, things like shared | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
decision-making, and all of it is about a partnership with your | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
doctor, and giving them the evidence. Are there any randomised | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
controlled tests, apart from anything else, on this subject?! | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
The fact is, I have got two partners in a practice, I have one | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
committed, practising Muslim as a partner, I have one lay preacher | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
and warned ordained vicar, they would never dream of bringing | :47:00. | :47:09. | |
religion into the consultation. That would be wrong. But they are | :47:09. | :47:16. | |
not doing their job properly. In my 30 years of general practice, I | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
trained up hundreds of medical students. One of the first things I | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
say to them actually is that even if you're an atheist or a person of | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
huge faith, religion is so important in the majority of your | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
patients' lives, that if you're not as comfortable in taking the | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
spiritual history of that patient, as you are of sexual history or | :47:37. | :47:43. | |
medication history, you are failing them. The students often look as | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
gobsmacked as Sarah, but in a week of practice, I have never had it | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
the case that religious issues have not been raised by patients. Where | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
are those patients going to go? am shocked by what I am hearing. | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
Are we going to the same doctors? Because I have 10 minutes maximum | :48:01. | :48:11. | |
with mine...! I do not want to go with a medical problem and have my | :48:11. | :48:21. | |
:48:21. | :48:21. | ||
religion questioned. There are other issues involved, which I | :48:21. | :48:27. | |
would like to get into. I know you're no longer practising as a GP, | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
Trevor Stammers, but supposing a 15-year-old girl came into you, and | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
she was in a steady sexual relationship with her boyfriend, | :48:35. | :48:41. | |
already having sex, and she what's contraception - would you give it | :48:41. | :48:48. | |
to her? -- she wants contraception. My views do not come first. Would | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
you give her contraception? It is the protection of the patient which | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
comes first. Would you give her contraception? If she is being | :48:58. | :49:04. | |
abused... I did not say that, that was not the scenario. Steady | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
relationship, would you give her contraception? She is going to be | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
unmarried, and if this GMC guidance is passed, I could lose my licence | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
to practise as a doctor, because I will not give contraception to an | :49:18. | :49:28. | |
:49:28. | :49:31. | ||
under rage, unmarried girl. Is that fair? -- under age. You're saying | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
he would never do it, even if it was in her best interests. I am | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
sudden, I would not do it without investigating how old the boyfriend | :49:40. | :49:50. | |
is, how many other sexual partners she has had. Most of those who came | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
back to me were girls who had been put on to contraception by other | :49:53. | :50:00. | |
doctors. I have worked for 21 years, and I'm like you did and still | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
working as a GP, and icy patients every day, and on a very regular | :50:04. | :50:10. | |
basis, I get 15-year-old scamming in - of course there are occasions | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
where they have been abused, but the sad fact is, and I do think it | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
is a sad fact, that the vast majority of them have been having | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
sex before they come to see me, and will continue to have sex. There | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
are absolutely clear guidelines - you have to do your best for the | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
patient. You have to make sure that they understand what you're saying, | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
you have to make sure that you cannot persuade them to come in | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
with a responsible adult, and very often, actually, I can persuade | :50:40. | :50:47. | |
them to come back with their mum. But what about the fact that I | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
should be under threat of losing my licence if, on consideration of all | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
things, and it is not only religious people who have | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
consciences, atheists do as well, and if I am a atheist doctor, and a | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
patient comes to me about religious circumcision, if I say no, then I | :51:09. | :51:15. | |
think that equally, these regulations should apply. Because | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
the same rule applies. The rule is that you must be able to defend | :51:20. | :51:26. | |
your actions. That's what the GMC says, and if you do not refer for | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
religious circumspection, of course you could defend your actions. -- | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
religious circumcision. The question you were asked was, | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
whether you would ever consider it to be in the interests of your | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
patient to prescribe an under-aged girl who is having consensual sex | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
appeal. If the answer to that is never, for conscientious reasons, | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
which I respect, then you cannot act as a doctor, because you're not | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
prepared to put the best interests of your patient first. If the whole | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
of my job revolved around aiding and abetting, as I would see it | :52:01. | :52:09. | |
from the point of view of my conscience, under-aged sex, and | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
there was a lot of talk about girls getting groomed in the previous | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
debate... I am saying 75% of young girls or more who came to see me | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
were already using contraception when they got pregnant. It is not | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
lack of access, it is lack of boundary setting. In which case we | :52:27. | :52:33. | |
need better education about reliable, long acting contraception. | :52:33. | :52:39. | |
The sexual education community has to get its act in order. Good | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
morning. We live in a society which is completely sexualised. Surely if | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
someone is coming to you, they are looking for help, looking to you to | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
protect them. Surely as a doctor you should not be imposing your | :52:51. | :52:59. | |
views on them, you should be the one that helps them. As a Muslim | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
couple we did have consultations with committed Christian doctors | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
and nurses, we have had conversations about God, and they | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
encouraged more faith in God, and as a Muslim couple, we actually | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
appreciated the advice. It is not bad medical practice, in contrary | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
to what the GMC say, because they failed to realise that psychology | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
is part of the healing process. And my second point is that even though | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
I am British, and I have been in a Christian boarding school, I can | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
see things as an outsider, because I am a Muslim Bangladeshi. And I | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
can see a situation where Christians are getting isolated in | :53:39. | :53:45. | |
our society, and even as a Muslim, I feel very sad. I have got the | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
Margate Muslims behind me supporting me and what I do. This | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
is crucial. At the end of the day, you're saying it is a stitch-up, | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
let's have more religion. But at the end of the day, if you want | :54:01. | :54:10. | |
religious advice, or spiritual guidance, go down to the church or | :54:10. | :54:20. | |
the mosque. There is a clear separation of these issues. If I go | :54:20. | :54:29. | |
to the doctor, and supposed to get medical advice. -- I am supposed. | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
What if somebody came and said, I feel I am trapped in the wrong body, | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
I feel I should be a woman, I want to fulfil what I really am, can you | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
put me on a course of hormones to enable me to be a woman? I'd do do | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
that, and it is difficult for me as a Christian. I also prescribe | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
under-age contraception, but it is difficult to do that. You have to | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
decide which battles you want to fight as a Christian. My primary | :54:55. | :55:01. | |
concern is the patient, which is why I bring up spiritual things. | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
it true you have said that you recommend the Alpha course to | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
patients, and a quarter of them go on it and half of those are helped? | :55:09. | :55:14. | |
Is it the job of a Dr ever to recommend an evangelical, quite | :55:14. | :55:24. | |
:55:24. | :55:27. | ||
hard core... This is judgmental language. Well, it is evangelical! | :55:27. | :55:33. | |
As a Christian organisation, one question we get asked very often is, | :55:33. | :55:40. | |
we come from within the Catholic community originally, so will | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
religion be involved? I say, no, people within our organisation are | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
driven by personal fate, but we are very clear that you do not put your | :55:49. | :55:59. | |
:55:59. | :56:00. | ||
personal baggage in front of clients. When I take my car to the | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
menders, I do not know what is wrong with it. Patients often do | :56:04. | :56:11. | |
not realise... The guy in the garage does not pray, does he? | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
World Health Organisation have stated that health is a combination | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
of the physical, mental and spiritual aspects. It is not for | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
you to tell a patient what religion they should follow. That's the | :56:24. | :56:31. | |
problem. I am a man of faith, and I think fate has been marginalised by | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
secularist and humanist and atheist, and I am on the opposite side to | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
them, but you have got to behave more responsibility, because if I | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
went to my GP and she started giving me lectures about religion, | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
I think I would be walking straight out. If you went to your surgery | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
and your GP was a Muslim... She is, but I would still feel | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
uncomfortable. It is not marginalisation or victimisation to | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
say that religion should generally be kept out of the consulting room | :57:01. | :57:11. | |
of the GPA. -- of the GP. That is not intolerance. The circular | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
argument is that when you're delivering the public service, you | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
need to do so without discrimination based on religion, | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
employers must not discriminate, as I think your surgery does... As I | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
understand it, you advertise for people to work in your surgery, and | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
for them to be Christians, is that right? That is what it says on your | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
website, is it not? We have six Christian partners, we have four | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
non- Christian employed people. The majority of our staff are not | :57:42. | :57:52. | |
:57:52. | :57:53. | ||
Christians. The GMC says in these draft guidelines... You're really | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
worried about these guidelines. am, because they do discriminate | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
against the religious. It specifically says, your patients | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
may not trust you if you are religious. That, to me, is a | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
discriminatory and sold. My patients may not trust me if I am | :58:11. | :58:15. |