Episode 17 The Big Questions


Episode 17

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Good morning. Great to see you. Welcome to The Big Questions live

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from the West London Academy. On Wednesday the judge told the nine

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Asian man convicted in the Rochdale grooming and multiple rape case

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that they had treated the victims as though they were worthless and

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beyond any respect and one of the factors leading to that was the

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fact they were not part of their community or religion. Our first

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big question, should the Pakistani community put its own house in

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order? Mohammed Shafique says the elders of the community have

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ignored the problems for years and refuse to see it as their job to

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change attitudes. Parliament is currently

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investigating the investigators. Are private eyes too free to

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intrude on what should be private matters, like whether a client's

:01:10.:01:15.

husband is having an affair? And is it right to spy on your

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spouse? Rebecca Jane spied on her former husband herself and then set

:01:19.:01:24.

up a business to investigate other people's straying partners.

:01:24.:01:27.

The General Medical Council has issued draft guidance on how

:01:27.:01:31.

doctors should handle their personal beliefs at work. Should

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doctors be forced to act against conscience? Dr Richard Scott

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believes it is wrong that he is facing professional sanction

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because he discussed whether faith in Christ might help the patient.

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Welcome to The Big Questions. The police in Rochdale news that

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Asian men had been grooming vulnerable young girls for sex

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since 2008 when a 15 year-old victim told them what had happened

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to her. It took until May, 2011, when Nazir Afzal was appointed

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Chief Crown Prosecutor for the North West before the law did

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anything about it. He said that imported cultural baggage played a

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role in this terrible crime. The convicted men all thought that

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women are lesser beings. Should the Pakistani community put its own

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house in order? It is a question that has been debated one way or

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another this week. Lots of people are uncomfortable with this

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question, Mohammed Shafique. Is it a fair question? Yes, it is. The

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facts are that out of 77 recent convictions, 67 a Pakistani man.

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80% of sexual offenders in terms of online crooning of Wight. We have

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to put it into context. -- online grooming are white people. So why

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is this anything to do with the Pakistani community? As a community

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we have to reflect why it is that there are people among us that big

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that white girls are worthless and they can use and abuse them in this

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abhorrent way. Just white girls? actually think it is a race issue.

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I have been stopped many times in the community... I live in Rochdale,

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unlike some people commentating on this. I live in the community and I

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can tell you that there is a problem with a minority of people

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who think that white girls are worthless. Let's explore this a

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little bit more. British Pakistanis have been saying exactly what you

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are saying. Some have been agreeing with you. And a man who has been

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working in this area who you know has used the expression of cultural

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dissonance. They come from a socially conservative, rural

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culture with no emphasis on sexual gratification, into a liberal,

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perhaps over sexualise culture, our own culture. Explain that. You said

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before that we don't talk about sex. That is a problem. We don't show

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affection. My mother and my late father, if they were in the same

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room, would not show affection to each other, and as a community we

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have got this baggage. I would caution what that man said. That is

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this. Previous cases of second and third generation Pakistani men,

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they were actually born in the UK. Placing too much emphasis on the

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cultural baggage is quite dangerous. Is there any cultural baggage here?

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Are we unfairly targeting a community? A vile, degenerate

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person who will prey on innocent girls does not take race into

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account. They go after girls, simple. Saying they go after white

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girls any is bang out of order because you are turning it into a

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race issue when it clearly is not. It is a race issue. It is not. It

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is important to realise this. You are diverting from the at all

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problem, which is that we have file, degenerate men calming young girls.

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-- the actual problem. Because they are Pakistani they are not more

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likely to do this. They picked up a web they could, which so happened

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to be white gills. Some have gone after Bangladeshi girls. It does

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not matter who they are, they do not think about race. I think race

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is a central issue to this. I am not going to talk about speculation.

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If you look at the facts, 77 recent convictions, of which 67 of

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Pakistani men. As a member of the Pakistani community, we have to be

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honest and open. One of the things that I called for in the Times

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newspaper this week was for the leaders to speak out openly and for

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the police to report to the main mosque in Rochdale, making some

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powerful points. We have got to deal with this. You can look at it

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the other way. Young white girls are more likely to be out on the

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streets at night, so some people might think that white communities

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have to get their act together. suppose that was the second part of

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my argument in my piece. As a community, we have to reflect on

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why white girls are wandering the streets at 3 o'clock in the morning.

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Absolutely. This is victim blaming. You cannot look at young,

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vulnerable girls... I take your point, that communities have to put

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their house in order. Every community has to get their house in

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order. If it is cultural, the culture that affects young girls

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and enables sexual predators to abuse them is called patriarchy and

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sexism. There is no culture in this world where girls are valued on a

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par with poise and I would like to say this. Why did nobody talk about

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the endemic sexual abuse of children and adult women by the

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clergy as a white problem? There is no such thing as a Pakistani

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problem. Well, it was spoken about as a Catholic problem. People said

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the Catholic Church needed to get its act together. But we did not

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talk about white men abusing white children, but men abusing children.

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There is no question that some police have been reluctant to act

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on these cases involving Pakistani child abusers because they are

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feared they will be labelled racist. That is something for white people

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to look at. If we are so scared about being called racist that we

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allow 15 year-old girls to be prostituted and raped, then there

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is something wrong with white people as well. You have been on

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this for a long time, writing about this for a long time, haven't you?

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Is there any cultural baggage here, Andrew? Firstly, let's get the

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facts right. The vast majority of child sex offenders in this country

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of white men acting on their own. If you look at offences where the

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victims of pre-pubescent, where the victims of boys, where it runs in

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the family, then it is usually white men acting alone. What is

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different about this, and when the Government ordered an assessment

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last year of St grooming, they found that in a country that is 6%

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Asian, at 46% of all offenders were Asian. When it came to grips, it

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was over half in cultures that are 6% Asian. -- when it came two

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groups. This has become normalised group activity. They have not been

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cases of groups of white men being convicted. This is not organised

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crime gangs in Rochdale, they were respected members of the community.

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This activity was carried out between work colleagues, friends,

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relatives, with girls being shared around. You could not do that in

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the white community. There are an awful lot of paedophiles, but if

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you share that with colleagues and friends, somebody would say there

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is something wrong. That is the mindset that needs to be challenged.

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What is that minds that? -- minds that? It is the mindset that has

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normalised the abuse of young girls. It is not a mindset that is

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acceptable within a small subsection of the criminal section

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of the Pakistani community. It is the Pakistani community that has to

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sort themselves out. You feel strongly about that? You are saying

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it is the Pakistani modus operandi to abuse children. It is a criminal

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sub-sector. It is a criminal problem within society, not the

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Pakistani community. That is how we have to look at it. If you are

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focusing on ways, then we are diverting from the fact of what

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support mechanisms do we have in place for young girls? -- focusing

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on race. What is actually wrong in society that we all need to deal

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with? It is not saying that you Pakistanis have a problem and you

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have to deal with it, come back next year. We all have to deal with

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it. I will come back to you in the second. I do think that one reason

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why these girls were all white is because the Asian girls are better

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protected by their families. If it were that this gang had got

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involved with Asian girls, they may have finished up with their throat

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cut. That is not true. Can I finish? I spent 16 years working on

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this sort of thing as a Member of Parliament. I worked on cases 10

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years ago. It was identical to what has actually been put before us

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this last week. Why are they have Greater Manchester police are

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saying they did not know anything about this, I don't know because I

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knew about it 10 years ago. -- why on earth? There was a reluctance to

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talk about it. We have to take into account of the fact that there is

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much use my own part of the Pakistani community. -- Maggie

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Smith. They have that in all cultures. It is bang out of order

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to focus on the Pakistani community. What about the pain culture in the

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white community? I am sorry, can I just tell you something that

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happened in Bradford? To get women Asian councillors we had to have a

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rule that stopped the Asian meant selecting more men to contest their

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seats. -- Asian men. We now have five excellent women Labour

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councillors who are Asian. Let's get back to the victims. You want

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to talk about the victims. I agree with what he was saying and I

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respect the work that you have done on this issue because it needs to

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be exposed. But the problem I have with the idea that Asian girls are

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better protected in the home is that most child sexual abuse occurs

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in the home. This is hidden. It is endemic. We have a problem with the

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devaluing of girls in every single culture. I do think there are

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problems in certain cultures where there is a fundamentalist religion

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and it is worse for women, but I would not so those girls are

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protected in the home. They are not on the streets, but many are abused

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in the home. The problem is the focus on the word community. There

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is no homogenous Pakistani community, any more than there is a

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white community, and Asian community. The frame of the

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question is that the Pakistani house should get its house in order,

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which is silly. People do not want to police their own communities.

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That is the top of the police and the social services and the CPS to

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deal with this issue. And they have failed, no doubt about it. The idea

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that the Community should police itself opens them up to more abuse.

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Then you have got local community leaders, just like the case you

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mentioned in the Jewish community in New York, at and in that case

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the Orthodox rabbi leaders themselves went to the police and

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said they would deal with that problem in their own community.

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Similar to the Catholic Church? Exactly. If you make it into a

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community, cultural thing, you are making it worse. You are saying

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that the community leaders have to deal with it. So it is counter-

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productive? We have to take a step back at look at the facts. I hear

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what you are all saying, but the reality is that we have got a

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problem. Let me finish. When you say the facts, that is not true.

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Let me finish. I have listened to you quietly. Not that quietly!

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point is that we have got a problem. Looking at the facts, I am not

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going to look at speculation of people arrested. 77 people arrested,

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67 Pakistani men. We have to look at the wider context. This week we

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saw eight men convicted of child abuse in Edinburgh. So does the

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Scottish Community need to get their house in order? No mention

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whatsoever in their newspapers. We have to be careful how we deal with

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this. I have understood that we have got a problem. The Pakistani

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community in Rochdale has been very vocal. You have been accused of

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playing into the hands of the BNP. They were due to come to Rochdale

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yesterday and they have not turned up. I think this is a direct result

:15:33.:15:43.
:15:43.:15:47.

By dealing with this issue now, we have stopped the BNP... Why is he

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in some ways giving them...? Because he is making it into a race

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issue. If you say that, and you're suddenly pointing to a bunch of

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Scottish guys in Scotland, that is also a race issue. If you're then

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talking about Irish Catholics abusing young kids, why is it not

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an Irish Catholic issue? It is a male issue. Across a lot of

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communities, the culture is, we're going to abuse, and then once the

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kids get abused, then they hide it. So, the idea that it is a cultural

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issue... There are conservative elements in any culture. If you get

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a situation where the people in those communities, the so-called

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community leaders, are protected, that is a problem in itself.

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reason this is a cultural problem is because, unlike I suspect what

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happened in Edinburgh, here, you have people who, in the opinion of

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professionals close to that case, had a schizophrenic existence,

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where conduct which would be unthinkable... Let him finish.

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conduct somehow became morally acceptable with corrupted white

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girls. It is not just white girls, it is what is available. And in

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this country, out on the streets, it does tend to be white girl's who

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are scene. The fact is, I am working with a family in the West

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Midlands... I am working with a family which is a Sikh family,

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whose daughter has been through exactly the same process, an

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absolutely desperate process. I do think there are hidden stories

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which have not come out yet, but I do think, I'm afraid, if you have

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an attitude that something is permissible with one section of

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this society, and not permissible with your own, and I am not saying

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that is a majority. You make a generalisation, and then you say it

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is a minority. Look, most Muslim women in the UK are abused by

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Muslim men. You know why? Simply because most rape happens within

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families. So the idea that somehow they see one group of women as

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untouchable, it is just completely idiotic. Some of the women abused

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in these cases were Bangladeshi women. So, the idea that they are

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specifically picking out Englishwomen and trying to rake

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them is silly, because, if they had the opportunity to exploit Muslim

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women or Pakistani women, they would do it. This is what I was

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trying to say, the communities in our northern towns would jump on

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such characters very quickly indeed if it was found out that they were

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having relationships of this type. It would be self-policing. Yes, it

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would be self-policing, and I am not in favour of that. Let me

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finish what I'm saying, for goodness sake. What has been said

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goodness sake. What has been said already is that we have to look to

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the communities themselves, not to police, but just to change

:19:11.:19:20.

attitudes. That's all I am asking. But there have been several cases

:19:20.:19:23.

where cases of rape by people from those communities have been hidden

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away, so this idea that if Muslim women get raped by Muslim men, that

:19:29.:19:33.

they would get their throat cut, or that the men would police their own

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communities, is silly, because actually, there have been loads of

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cover-ups within the communities, even within madrassas. There was a

:19:42.:19:46.

report about 10 years ago, with a bunch of Muslim clerics saying, we

:19:46.:19:49.

have child abuse within our communities, and we need to deal

:19:49.:19:59.
:19:59.:20:03.

with the problem. So, there is a lot of cover-up. Good morning to

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you... Good morning. I think it is dangerous to create an atmosphere

:20:10.:20:13.

where you're using race as a determining factor when you're

:20:13.:20:15.

talking about criminality. These are criminals, and it has been said

:20:16.:20:20.

by a number of people that we need to focus on their criminality. Yes,

:20:20.:20:23.

there are Common, shared values amongst these criminals which got

:20:23.:20:27.

them working together to do what they did. However, you cannot label

:20:27.:20:37.

whole community by that. Over here, let's go to you. I agree with what

:20:37.:20:41.

you're saying, but these things are multi-faceted, so at the same time,

:20:41.:20:46.

you cannot ignore the race issue. There is clearly an issue within

:20:46.:20:51.

that community, the facts are that 67 convictions have been made in

:20:52.:20:56.

that community. I come from Derby, and there have been convictions in

:20:56.:21:00.

Derby, and there are issues within that community, you cannot just

:21:00.:21:09.

ignore them. This kind of thing could happen anywhere, couldn't it?

:21:09.:21:17.

Of course it could, and it probably does. We talk about child sex abuse,

:21:17.:21:20.

but what they are also doing is actually passing the girls around

:21:20.:21:26.

for money. There are men who are willing to pay for sex from a child.

:21:26.:21:29.

And raped them repeatedly, it is just horrific, let's not lose sight

:21:29.:21:37.

of that. A simple freedom of information request shows that out

:21:37.:21:46.

of 53 grooming cases, five cases were Asian, the rest were white.

:21:46.:21:50.

We're saying, let's extrapolate from the 67 cases, it is a

:21:50.:21:54.

Pakistani problem. How can you do that? We have research groups who

:21:54.:21:59.

have spent time on this, saying the data is not reliable enough to

:21:59.:22:04.

extrapolate it as a Pakistani problem. I have already said, if

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you look at online grooming, it is something like 95% white people, of

:22:09.:22:15.

all ages, of all backgrounds, from 18 to 80, Oxford dons to road

:22:15.:22:20.

sweepers. There is a very specific model going on, which has been

:22:20.:22:26.

going on for 20 years, in the north and the Midlands. We seem to have

:22:26.:22:29.

agreed that everybody would like to change the mindsets of the

:22:29.:22:34.

individuals who are doing this. We had the quote at the start of the

:22:34.:22:40.

programme, about forced marriage, it was said that some people are

:22:40.:22:43.

saying this is just going to be another stick to beat the Muslim

:22:43.:22:48.

community. I am saying, we should be carrying our own stick. In a

:22:48.:22:52.

society where the police, the social services, everybody in

:22:52.:22:57.

authority, is too scared to confirm what is going on, and admit that

:22:57.:23:01.

there is a need to understand it, then the only people who are really

:23:01.:23:11.
:23:11.:23:11.

going to get to grips with it are the brave people like Nazir Afzal

:23:11.:23:15.

who are standing up and saying, who are standing up and saying,

:23:15.:23:17.

this is wrong. We have to leave it there. If you would like to have

:23:17.:23:23.

your say about that debate, log on to the website, you will find links

:23:23.:23:27.

to the discussion online. We are also debating live this morning, is

:23:27.:23:30.

it right to spy on your spouse? And also, should doctors be forced to

:23:30.:23:34.

act against conscience? Tell us what you think about those topics,

:23:34.:23:38.

too. You can send us any general comments you would like to make as

:23:38.:23:48.
:23:48.:23:51.

It is spring, the wedding season, brides and grooms are promising to

:23:51.:23:57.

love each other in sickness and in health, for better for worse, and

:23:57.:23:59.

forsaking all others. But what if one of those promises has been

:23:59.:24:02.

broken? Is it your right to discover the truth, to hire

:24:02.:24:10.

somebody to spy on your spouse? Well, Rebecca Jane, a few years ago,

:24:10.:24:15.

you suspected your husband was having an affair - what happened?

:24:15.:24:19.

tried to hire private investigators, and I found them to be really cold

:24:19.:24:23.

and hard and wanted lots of money it off me. So I got my friends to

:24:23.:24:28.

help, we did it ourselves. Does the private investigator community need

:24:28.:24:35.

to get its act in order? But you found certain attitudes which you

:24:35.:24:40.

were uncomfortable within the way that they operate? Yes, I rang up,

:24:40.:24:44.

I poured out my heart, and they did not care in the slightest. They

:24:44.:24:47.

were just calculating the money, and it was it. And so I did not

:24:47.:24:55.

hire any of them. What did you do instead? We did the DIY detective

:24:55.:25:00.

thing, we spider on him, a lot, and we found out a lot as well. What

:25:00.:25:05.

did you find out? He was having liaisons with about five or six

:25:05.:25:10.

women, and I was seven months pregnant at the time. It was an

:25:10.:25:16.

amazing period of my life. I bet you were somewhat slightly upset.

:25:16.:25:24.

was not very thrilled. Five or six? Yes. And when you confronted him?

:25:24.:25:29.

He went into utter denial, a bit like a lot of my clients' partners

:25:29.:25:34.

do now. But we had some decent evidence, and probably to this day

:25:34.:25:38.

he will deny it until he is blue in the face. What kind of evidence did

:25:38.:25:43.

you go there then, and what do you go the now? We do surveillance a

:25:43.:25:49.

lot, and that is what we did back then as well. But I also owned his

:25:49.:25:52.

mobile phone, so I was able to check who he was ringing, when he

:25:52.:25:58.

was telling me that his battery had died and everything. Have you ever

:25:59.:26:04.

listened to a voicemail message, Mr Murdoch?! I have nothing to do with

:26:04.:26:10.

the News of the World. Have you ever bugged the telephone? No.

:26:10.:26:16.

you ever read a text message? do you mean? Would you for example

:26:16.:26:21.

have read his text messages at the time? Yes, but I owned his

:26:21.:26:25.

telephone. It is interesting, because we do not know what we are

:26:25.:26:30.

able to do, and what we are not able to do. Absolutely, people

:26:30.:26:33.

misunderstand that there are laws and it is criminal to do certain

:26:33.:26:38.

things. You cannot break into your husband or wife's e-mails, even if

:26:38.:26:43.

you have the home computer together. If you go into his password and

:26:43.:26:47.

look at his e-mails, that is illegal. If you look at people's

:26:47.:26:52.

text messages, that is illegal. If they leave it open and you happen

:26:52.:27:02.
:27:02.:27:02.

to glance at it, that's OK. There was a case about a year ago which

:27:03.:27:08.

set the boundaries for us lawyers. We cannot use 99% of what private

:27:09.:27:17.

detectives go and find out these days. The thing is that if you

:27:17.:27:21.

break into your husband's briefcase and take out those documents and

:27:21.:27:24.

then come to your lawyer, put them on the desk and say, look what I

:27:24.:27:30.

have found, the lawyer has to say, I cannot even look at ease. What

:27:30.:27:37.

about going through his pockets? What if you put it in the wash and

:27:37.:27:46.

then go through the pockets? you cannot even look at it! You're

:27:46.:27:54.

not allowed to do that? No, because of we have this human rights act,

:27:54.:27:58.

which says they have a right to privacy. And we have been given

:27:58.:28:02.

directives about what we can and cannot use. If you put a tracker on

:28:02.:28:09.

a car, it is a bit of a grey area. What can you do, then? You know, it

:28:09.:28:17.

is really difficult. Surveillance is one of the easiest things.

:28:17.:28:25.

Watching somebody going into a flat or something? There's a lot less

:28:25.:28:29.

definite boundaries in that kind of thing. But there are a lot of

:28:29.:28:33.

things which we cannot do. We have to constantly speak to the Data

:28:33.:28:36.

Protection people. At the end of the day, you need to think about

:28:36.:28:41.

why this is happening. This is not the fault of our clients. This is

:28:41.:28:49.

the fault of somebody else, potentially, until proved otherwise.

:28:49.:28:55.

And Christmas is your busiest time? Before Christmas is the quietest

:28:55.:29:02.

time, and after Christmas is most definitely the busiest. Terry

:29:02.:29:08.

Prendergast, chief executive of Marriage Care, coming from a

:29:08.:29:12.

Christian perspective - you think this is deceitful, don't you?

:29:12.:29:17.

deceitful, I can understand why people do it. But for me it is a

:29:17.:29:20.

classic example of the solution becoming part of the problem. The

:29:20.:29:26.

difficulty I think we have in our culture is, we do not teach people

:29:26.:29:32.

how to build relationships. In hiring a private detective, what do

:29:32.:29:35.

you want to achieve, do you want evidence which give you the courage

:29:35.:29:39.

to confront your partner or do you want evidence to actually break the

:29:39.:29:43.

relationship up? If it is about confronting your partner about what

:29:43.:29:53.
:29:53.:29:53.

he is doing, or she, then I think that my suggestion would be, cut

:29:53.:29:57.

out the middleman and save yourself hundreds of pounds and do the

:29:57.:30:00.

confrontation yourself. I know it is very difficult. We have loads

:30:00.:30:05.

and loads of people who have been coming to our organisation for help

:30:05.:30:08.

over more than 60 years, and infidelity is one of the biggest

:30:08.:30:14.

hurdles to get over. A personal, intimate relationship is probably

:30:14.:30:18.

one of the most difficult decisions you make in your life. At that

:30:18.:30:22.

point you're under the influence of a Class A drug called Romans, so

:30:22.:30:27.

none of us are able to make a rational decision. -- called

:30:27.:30:31.

romance. It is at that point that people will often try to find

:30:31.:30:41.
:30:41.:30:45.

This is true, I agree with you, but our clients on in no way naive. We

:30:45.:30:49.

deal with barristers, people of exceptionally high intelligence. If

:30:49.:30:52.

they could talk to their partners, and their partners would come

:30:52.:30:55.

straight out with everything that was going on, they would not call

:30:55.:31:02.

us up. There is mediation between this. I agree for some people to

:31:02.:31:05.

talk directly to their partner and confront them is incredibly

:31:05.:31:10.

uncomfortable. But by going to a relationship counsellor, if someone

:31:10.:31:17.

that can mediate between a couple... As a psychologist, I watch what

:31:17.:31:21.

people are saying, how they are saying it, body language, I can

:31:21.:31:25.

work closely with a couple to tease out information that they have

:31:25.:31:32.

tried to deny it up until that point. If you go straight from I

:31:32.:31:36.

cannot confront them to a private investigator... I cannot think of a

:31:36.:31:43.

single couple that has done this and come out happy with the results.

:31:43.:31:47.

Are you a marriage guidance counsellor? I wish! You get

:31:47.:31:51.

everybody. They pour out their life stories, that is just the way that

:31:51.:31:55.

it is. If they could talk to one another, and they often have talked

:31:55.:31:59.

to each other and people go into denial, and it is not a perfect

:31:59.:32:03.

world. If they find out that they have been to a private investigator,

:32:04.:32:08.

they have every right legally and otherwise... Some people cannot go

:32:08.:32:12.

to a counsellor because the other partner will not go. What we always

:32:12.:32:16.

say to women in particular, when they want a private detective to

:32:16.:32:21.

find out, we always say it what are you going to do with the

:32:21.:32:27.

information? Are you going to leave your partner? Do you really want to

:32:27.:32:33.

know? Others will say yes, some will say they don't. It is

:32:33.:32:37.

fundamental in a relationship. The things that support any

:32:37.:32:41.

relationship, trust, respect, communication. That is all broken

:32:41.:32:46.

down. In a perfect world. No, in every world. In every relationship

:32:46.:32:49.

there should be that and there probably was at the beginning and

:32:49.:32:53.

you have to find it with your partner again somehow. I think the

:32:53.:32:58.

last possible resort in solving any relationship, whether it you talk

:32:58.:33:03.

to a friend, the church, a councillor, a coach, a psychologist,

:33:03.:33:09.

the last possible resort should be finding a private investigator.

:33:09.:33:14.

that is when they come to us. They are not bringing us up to find out

:33:14.:33:17.

if their partner is playing with fluffy bunnies in a field somewhere.

:33:17.:33:20.

They are ringing us up because there is a major serious problem

:33:20.:33:24.

and they have nowhere else to go. Do you think this is right

:33:24.:33:31.

ethically? We work with victims of press intrusion and there is a

:33:31.:33:34.

contentious issue about whether accessing emails on a family

:33:34.:33:39.

computer is unlawful. I have had different advice from what you said.

:33:39.:33:43.

What is in no doubt is that industrial scale fishing

:33:43.:33:46.

expeditions on ordinary members of the public and even celebrities and

:33:46.:33:49.

certainly their families is not lawful. That is a significant

:33:49.:33:54.

bridge and it is widespread of the Data Protection Act. -- significant

:33:54.:34:00.

breach. This was across all media group's 10 years ago, not just News

:34:00.:34:04.

International, and we don't believe that those practices ended when a

:34:04.:34:08.

particular investigator was raided. There is good evidence coming out

:34:08.:34:12.

today that there is a very big private investigation industry and

:34:12.:34:18.

we should all be alarmed. Rebecca Jane is not going to appear

:34:18.:34:22.

before the Leveson Inquiry! No, but we should be alarmed about the

:34:22.:34:26.

extent of the private investigator industry. They put Trojans on

:34:26.:34:30.

computers. Lawfully they say if it is a marital commuter, not the word

:34:30.:34:35.

computer of the husband, for example... I am just warning people

:34:35.:34:40.

that this is going on and this is one end of that industry. It goes

:34:40.:34:44.

into insurance companies using private investigators, and I think

:34:44.:34:54.

Parliament needs to look at this again. OK. Back there? Personally I

:34:54.:34:58.

believe that, like my friend did say, what is the motive in all

:34:58.:35:05.

these things? Is it divorce? What is the key thing? I believe people

:35:05.:35:10.

need to come to a place whereby they talk among themselves and the

:35:10.:35:15.

community leaders come together to mediate and know what is going on

:35:15.:35:23.

before these things are set up. The final outcome, you may not like it.

:35:23.:35:28.

Would you prefer not to know? actually answer that. The general

:35:28.:35:32.

motive when people ring us up, and it is a common misconception,

:35:32.:35:37.

people do want to stay together. They don't come to us and say they

:35:37.:35:40.

what evidence to leave their partner. It is unusual that they

:35:40.:35:44.

wanted for the divorce. Do people come to you because this is back

:35:44.:35:47.

upon his having an affair, and it was established that they were, and

:35:47.:35:53.

there has been a happy ending? a lot of people. Probably 60% of

:35:53.:36:01.

our clients. Are all of your clients women? No. Are the vast

:36:01.:36:06.

majority women? I think it is interesting with patriarchy.

:36:06.:36:11.

slightly more women. It is really difficult, and I have found as

:36:11.:36:13.

professionally, for people to sit down and talk about a relationship

:36:14.:36:17.

that has gone wrong. It is difficult and painful to do that.

:36:17.:36:21.

The problem for men is that we find it more difficult than women. For

:36:21.:36:26.

whatever reason. Exactly. And we live in a society that stigmatises

:36:26.:36:30.

relationship difficulties. Stigmatises relationships breaking

:36:30.:36:34.

down, despite the fact it is costing us 45 billion to the

:36:34.:36:38.

taxpayer. We are making no inroads at all and I think has meant we

:36:38.:36:47.

need to do something to understand that the people we live with a

:36:47.:36:51.

working and communicating in a different way. -- the many to do

:36:51.:36:56.

something. I think if you have this level of mistrust then things are

:36:56.:37:03.

seriously wrong. I think that is naive. Some people are not in a

:37:03.:37:08.

position that you are. Some people are so frightened they need to know

:37:08.:37:12.

the information. I'm not saying it is necessarily right, but they do

:37:12.:37:16.

need to know. What is very important, there is so much

:37:16.:37:20.

advertised on the internet, people downloading things to stop spying

:37:20.:37:24.

on their husbands and wives, their telephones and everything, they are

:37:24.:37:29.

illegal. -- to start spying. This is not funny, they could get into

:37:29.:37:34.

trouble, they could go to prison. They need to be educated.

:37:34.:37:40.

getting some electronic device? absolutely. I don't want to give

:37:40.:37:44.

you the impression that I think that the work that you are doing is

:37:44.:37:49.

in anyway questionable. I think they are private detectives are

:37:49.:37:53.

doing exemplary work that is a great public service. But for many

:37:53.:37:57.

women that have been cheated on, who desperately need to keep hold

:37:57.:38:02.

of half of the marital home, need to sort out child custody issues,

:38:02.:38:10.

then perhaps it is the only way that they can go. It is about trust.

:38:10.:38:14.

I think there is a right in any relationship, and I am listening to

:38:14.:38:17.

the practicalities and the legalities, and at the end of the

:38:17.:38:24.

day... Of men are not very communicative at many times. They

:38:24.:38:30.

tend to be the ones whose behaviour changes, especially when they are

:38:30.:38:36.

having an affair. How? You notice a significant difference. They might

:38:36.:38:40.

be troubled at work, they may not be well, they might have financial

:38:40.:38:44.

concerns that they do not want to discuss. They become withdrawn.

:38:44.:38:50.

could be gambling? I absolutely. Ladies' underwear? That is more

:38:50.:38:54.

likely to be an affair! But as a woman, your intuition tells you

:38:54.:38:58.

that a man's behaviour is changing but not necessarily because of an

:38:58.:39:01.

affair. You go to a private investigator and they find he is

:39:01.:39:05.

not having an affair. I don't know how you come back from that when

:39:05.:39:11.

you have made it that huge step. That is a very good point and it

:39:11.:39:17.

deserves some appreciation. What happens when your partner says to

:39:17.:39:20.

you that I hired a private investigator to see if you are

:39:20.:39:24.

having an affair and you are not! Let's go out for dinner! They never

:39:24.:39:30.

say that. These are secrets and lies. I will say that whenever we

:39:30.:39:34.

deliver a result, it people generally are happy in one way or

:39:34.:39:38.

another. Relieved that they are not going insane, because people are

:39:38.:39:42.

tortured every single day and they have nowhere else to turn. They

:39:43.:39:47.

have, but they choose to turn to you but carry on. They have

:39:47.:39:51.

generally tried it. I am sure your clients have not been to

:39:51.:39:57.

relationship boating before they come to you. That is ridiculous.

:39:57.:40:06.

relationship coaching. In how many couples where only one partner

:40:06.:40:11.

agrees to come in? I see it all the time. Somebody said why don't you

:40:12.:40:15.

go to the community leaders, most of us don't have community leaders

:40:15.:40:21.

any more. They go to their GP. All too often the other half will not

:40:21.:40:26.

come in. I agree. But I would like to see people coming to a

:40:26.:40:30.

relationship counsellor when they sense there is something wrong, or

:40:30.:40:35.

not right rather, as opposed to it having gone wrong. You are a

:40:35.:40:38.

relationship counsellor at so you want people to go to relationship

:40:38.:40:42.

counsellors. You are private detective and so you want people to

:40:42.:40:49.

go to detective! Can I correct something that is wrong? I don't

:40:49.:40:54.

think that people will face present in the case of spouses. There is

:40:54.:41:00.

nothing in terms of the misuse of data protection for that. I don't

:41:01.:41:05.

know of any spouse who would face present but I am saying that

:41:05.:41:10.

Parliament needs to look at it again. -- face prison. Not for

:41:10.:41:20.
:41:20.:41:21.

partners and spouses, but the industry. Thank you. You can log on

:41:22.:41:26.

to our website to follow the links to continue the discussion online.

:41:26.:41:31.

And now, it should doctors be forced to act against conscience?

:41:31.:41:35.

If you would like to be in the audience for a future show, you can

:41:35.:41:40.

email us. Next week, a pre-recorded special from London, debating just

:41:40.:41:46.

one big question. Is there a difference between a cult and a

:41:46.:41:50.

religion? We will be live from Glasgow for the last show of the

:41:50.:41:58.

series on the June 3rd. The draft guidelines on the General

:41:58.:42:04.

Medical Council contain rules to stop doctors talking about faith,

:42:04.:42:07.

make them recommend treatments like contraception and abortion but they

:42:07.:42:11.

believe are morally wrong, and to make sure doctors of the treatment

:42:11.:42:14.

to patients with lifestyles that they disapprove of like alcoholics

:42:14.:42:24.
:42:24.:42:24.

and drug takers. -- offer treatment. So should doctors be able to work

:42:24.:42:28.

against conscience? You are involved in a case that is on-going

:42:28.:42:35.

and we cannot divulge the details because of patient confidentiality.

:42:35.:42:38.

A patient with problems that conventional medicine had not

:42:38.:42:41.

solved and you suggested that Christ had helped you and you

:42:41.:42:46.

suggested that might help him. And everything hit the fan, didn't it?

:42:46.:42:53.

It did. But there was a complaint. Yes, by his mother, who was not in

:42:53.:42:56.

the consultation. The patient reflected back that I only spoke

:42:56.:43:01.

about uses, which was not accurate. We had had a lengthy consultation

:43:01.:43:06.

before that. First of all, I looked at his faith, different from mine,

:43:06.:43:10.

discovered it was not helping and said that over the years as a GP I

:43:10.:43:14.

had discovered that in my life and in the lives of my patients, that

:43:15.:43:17.

hundreds of people have been massively helped by taking on

:43:17.:43:22.

aspects of the Christian faith. Praying, going to church, becoming

:43:22.:43:25.

Christians. So why are offered him something that I was convinced

:43:25.:43:31.

would help her. -- I offered him. You are only the messenger, nobody

:43:31.:43:36.

is forced to do anything. I offered it, he did not like it, that is

:43:36.:43:41.

fine, and six weeks later I got a letter from the GMC. If you went to

:43:41.:43:47.

a confirmed atheist Dr, and he said that you are deluded and you think

:43:47.:43:52.

you have got an imaginary friend and you don't, were to be offended?

:43:52.:44:00.

He would be utterly wrong. -- would you be offended? Would he be

:44:00.:44:07.

utterly wrong to say that? He can share his view. But I don't agree.

:44:07.:44:11.

There is a variety of views on a community that I sit on, so I am

:44:11.:44:15.

not speaking for them, but your primary concern should be the care

:44:15.:44:20.

of the patient. What you are not allowed to do, and this is very

:44:20.:44:23.

clear, is impose your own personal beliefs, religious or political.

:44:23.:44:31.

Let me finish. This is important. We can pursue your point in a

:44:31.:44:36.

minute. You are not supposed to impose a personal beliefs on

:44:36.:44:41.

patients, especially when they are vulnerable. And you have said in

:44:41.:44:45.

interviews on the radio, including on Nicky Campbell's radio programme,

:44:45.:44:48.

that you have done this for hundreds if not thousands of

:44:48.:44:52.

patients. You said to this gentleman that you thought his fate

:44:52.:44:57.

could not help him and only Jesus could help people with this stuff.

:44:57.:45:02.

-- is faith. If you have that view, and you can, then you should be a

:45:02.:45:12.
:45:12.:45:14.

preacher, and not giving it in an First of all, you're not accurate.

:45:14.:45:18.

I did not say it in the way that you phrased it. I stated that

:45:18.:45:21.

Christianity, you might find, could help you more than your current

:45:21.:45:31.

fate. The second point was, over the 13 years that I have been a GP,

:45:31.:45:35.

I have seen hundreds and hundreds of patients massively helped by

:45:35.:45:39.

fate, which is because in my view, and in their view, there is a God

:45:39.:45:45.

who really cares for them. Statistics show that health is

:45:45.:45:48.

massively helped by religion. The great majority of papers which have

:45:48.:45:58.

been written on this subject have been about the Christian religion.

:45:58.:46:02.

Sarah Jarvis, you have got a pained expression on your face. I have to

:46:02.:46:08.

say, I find this quite shocking. It is clear that you're a caring

:46:08.:46:13.

doctor. Yes, part of our job is to talk to our patients and to help

:46:13.:46:19.

them. The fact is that first and foremost, we are there as doctors.

:46:19.:46:23.

People come to see me as a doctor. If I am going to tell them that

:46:23.:46:27.

something is right, then I need to be able to give them all the

:46:27.:46:31.

information. We work on a lot of programmes, things like shared

:46:31.:46:35.

decision-making, and all of it is about a partnership with your

:46:35.:46:40.

doctor, and giving them the evidence. Are there any randomised

:46:40.:46:44.

controlled tests, apart from anything else, on this subject?!

:46:44.:46:49.

The fact is, I have got two partners in a practice, I have one

:46:49.:46:55.

committed, practising Muslim as a partner, I have one lay preacher

:46:55.:47:00.

and warned ordained vicar, they would never dream of bringing

:47:00.:47:09.

religion into the consultation. That would be wrong. But they are

:47:09.:47:16.

not doing their job properly. In my 30 years of general practice, I

:47:16.:47:20.

trained up hundreds of medical students. One of the first things I

:47:20.:47:25.

say to them actually is that even if you're an atheist or a person of

:47:25.:47:29.

huge faith, religion is so important in the majority of your

:47:29.:47:33.

patients' lives, that if you're not as comfortable in taking the

:47:33.:47:37.

spiritual history of that patient, as you are of sexual history or

:47:37.:47:43.

medication history, you are failing them. The students often look as

:47:43.:47:46.

gobsmacked as Sarah, but in a week of practice, I have never had it

:47:46.:47:51.

the case that religious issues have not been raised by patients. Where

:47:51.:47:56.

are those patients going to go? am shocked by what I am hearing.

:47:56.:48:01.

Are we going to the same doctors? Because I have 10 minutes maximum

:48:01.:48:11.

with mine...! I do not want to go with a medical problem and have my

:48:11.:48:21.
:48:21.:48:21.

religion questioned. There are other issues involved, which I

:48:21.:48:27.

would like to get into. I know you're no longer practising as a GP,

:48:27.:48:32.

Trevor Stammers, but supposing a 15-year-old girl came into you, and

:48:32.:48:35.

she was in a steady sexual relationship with her boyfriend,

:48:35.:48:41.

already having sex, and she what's contraception - would you give it

:48:41.:48:48.

to her? -- she wants contraception. My views do not come first. Would

:48:48.:48:52.

you give her contraception? It is the protection of the patient which

:48:52.:48:58.

comes first. Would you give her contraception? If she is being

:48:58.:49:04.

abused... I did not say that, that was not the scenario. Steady

:49:04.:49:09.

relationship, would you give her contraception? She is going to be

:49:09.:49:15.

unmarried, and if this GMC guidance is passed, I could lose my licence

:49:15.:49:18.

to practise as a doctor, because I will not give contraception to an

:49:18.:49:28.
:49:28.:49:31.

under rage, unmarried girl. Is that fair? -- under age. You're saying

:49:31.:49:37.

he would never do it, even if it was in her best interests. I am

:49:37.:49:40.

sudden, I would not do it without investigating how old the boyfriend

:49:40.:49:50.

is, how many other sexual partners she has had. Most of those who came

:49:50.:49:53.

back to me were girls who had been put on to contraception by other

:49:53.:50:00.

doctors. I have worked for 21 years, and I'm like you did and still

:50:00.:50:04.

working as a GP, and icy patients every day, and on a very regular

:50:04.:50:10.

basis, I get 15-year-old scamming in - of course there are occasions

:50:10.:50:14.

where they have been abused, but the sad fact is, and I do think it

:50:14.:50:17.

is a sad fact, that the vast majority of them have been having

:50:17.:50:22.

sex before they come to see me, and will continue to have sex. There

:50:22.:50:27.

are absolutely clear guidelines - you have to do your best for the

:50:27.:50:31.

patient. You have to make sure that they understand what you're saying,

:50:31.:50:36.

you have to make sure that you cannot persuade them to come in

:50:36.:50:40.

with a responsible adult, and very often, actually, I can persuade

:50:40.:50:47.

them to come back with their mum. But what about the fact that I

:50:47.:50:52.

should be under threat of losing my licence if, on consideration of all

:50:52.:50:57.

things, and it is not only religious people who have

:50:57.:51:03.

consciences, atheists do as well, and if I am a atheist doctor, and a

:51:03.:51:09.

patient comes to me about religious circumcision, if I say no, then I

:51:09.:51:15.

think that equally, these regulations should apply. Because

:51:15.:51:20.

the same rule applies. The rule is that you must be able to defend

:51:20.:51:26.

your actions. That's what the GMC says, and if you do not refer for

:51:26.:51:31.

religious circumspection, of course you could defend your actions. --

:51:31.:51:35.

religious circumcision. The question you were asked was,

:51:35.:51:39.

whether you would ever consider it to be in the interests of your

:51:39.:51:43.

patient to prescribe an under-aged girl who is having consensual sex

:51:43.:51:48.

appeal. If the answer to that is never, for conscientious reasons,

:51:48.:51:52.

which I respect, then you cannot act as a doctor, because you're not

:51:52.:51:56.

prepared to put the best interests of your patient first. If the whole

:51:56.:52:01.

of my job revolved around aiding and abetting, as I would see it

:52:01.:52:09.

from the point of view of my conscience, under-aged sex, and

:52:09.:52:14.

there was a lot of talk about girls getting groomed in the previous

:52:14.:52:19.

debate... I am saying 75% of young girls or more who came to see me

:52:19.:52:23.

were already using contraception when they got pregnant. It is not

:52:23.:52:27.

lack of access, it is lack of boundary setting. In which case we

:52:27.:52:33.

need better education about reliable, long acting contraception.

:52:33.:52:39.

The sexual education community has to get its act in order. Good

:52:39.:52:44.

morning. We live in a society which is completely sexualised. Surely if

:52:44.:52:48.

someone is coming to you, they are looking for help, looking to you to

:52:48.:52:51.

protect them. Surely as a doctor you should not be imposing your

:52:51.:52:59.

views on them, you should be the one that helps them. As a Muslim

:52:59.:53:02.

couple we did have consultations with committed Christian doctors

:53:02.:53:06.

and nurses, we have had conversations about God, and they

:53:06.:53:11.

encouraged more faith in God, and as a Muslim couple, we actually

:53:11.:53:16.

appreciated the advice. It is not bad medical practice, in contrary

:53:16.:53:19.

to what the GMC say, because they failed to realise that psychology

:53:19.:53:23.

is part of the healing process. And my second point is that even though

:53:23.:53:28.

I am British, and I have been in a Christian boarding school, I can

:53:28.:53:34.

see things as an outsider, because I am a Muslim Bangladeshi. And I

:53:34.:53:39.

can see a situation where Christians are getting isolated in

:53:39.:53:45.

our society, and even as a Muslim, I feel very sad. I have got the

:53:45.:53:50.

Margate Muslims behind me supporting me and what I do. This

:53:50.:53:56.

is crucial. At the end of the day, you're saying it is a stitch-up,

:53:56.:54:01.

let's have more religion. But at the end of the day, if you want

:54:01.:54:10.

religious advice, or spiritual guidance, go down to the church or

:54:10.:54:20.

the mosque. There is a clear separation of these issues. If I go

:54:20.:54:29.

to the doctor, and supposed to get medical advice. -- I am supposed.

:54:29.:54:32.

What if somebody came and said, I feel I am trapped in the wrong body,

:54:33.:54:37.

I feel I should be a woman, I want to fulfil what I really am, can you

:54:37.:54:43.

put me on a course of hormones to enable me to be a woman? I'd do do

:54:43.:54:48.

that, and it is difficult for me as a Christian. I also prescribe

:54:48.:54:51.

under-age contraception, but it is difficult to do that. You have to

:54:51.:54:55.

decide which battles you want to fight as a Christian. My primary

:54:55.:55:01.

concern is the patient, which is why I bring up spiritual things.

:55:01.:55:05.

it true you have said that you recommend the Alpha course to

:55:05.:55:09.

patients, and a quarter of them go on it and half of those are helped?

:55:09.:55:14.

Is it the job of a Dr ever to recommend an evangelical, quite

:55:14.:55:24.
:55:24.:55:27.

hard core... This is judgmental language. Well, it is evangelical!

:55:27.:55:33.

As a Christian organisation, one question we get asked very often is,

:55:33.:55:40.

we come from within the Catholic community originally, so will

:55:40.:55:45.

religion be involved? I say, no, people within our organisation are

:55:45.:55:49.

driven by personal fate, but we are very clear that you do not put your

:55:49.:55:59.
:55:59.:56:00.

personal baggage in front of clients. When I take my car to the

:56:01.:56:04.

menders, I do not know what is wrong with it. Patients often do

:56:04.:56:11.

not realise... The guy in the garage does not pray, does he?

:56:11.:56:15.

World Health Organisation have stated that health is a combination

:56:15.:56:20.

of the physical, mental and spiritual aspects. It is not for

:56:20.:56:24.

you to tell a patient what religion they should follow. That's the

:56:24.:56:31.

problem. I am a man of faith, and I think fate has been marginalised by

:56:31.:56:35.

secularist and humanist and atheist, and I am on the opposite side to

:56:35.:56:38.

them, but you have got to behave more responsibility, because if I

:56:38.:56:42.

went to my GP and she started giving me lectures about religion,

:56:42.:56:47.

I think I would be walking straight out. If you went to your surgery

:56:47.:56:52.

and your GP was a Muslim... She is, but I would still feel

:56:52.:56:58.

uncomfortable. It is not marginalisation or victimisation to

:56:58.:57:01.

say that religion should generally be kept out of the consulting room

:57:01.:57:11.

of the GPA. -- of the GP. That is not intolerance. The circular

:57:11.:57:14.

argument is that when you're delivering the public service, you

:57:14.:57:17.

need to do so without discrimination based on religion,

:57:17.:57:22.

employers must not discriminate, as I think your surgery does... As I

:57:22.:57:27.

understand it, you advertise for people to work in your surgery, and

:57:27.:57:32.

for them to be Christians, is that right? That is what it says on your

:57:32.:57:37.

website, is it not? We have six Christian partners, we have four

:57:37.:57:42.

non- Christian employed people. The majority of our staff are not

:57:42.:57:52.
:57:52.:57:53.

Christians. The GMC says in these draft guidelines... You're really

:57:53.:57:58.

worried about these guidelines. am, because they do discriminate

:57:58.:58:02.

against the religious. It specifically says, your patients

:58:02.:58:07.

may not trust you if you are religious. That, to me, is a

:58:07.:58:11.

discriminatory and sold. My patients may not trust me if I am

:58:11.:58:15.

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