Episode 18 The Big Questions

AUDIENCE APPLAUDS

Thank you, good morning.

Welcome to The Big Questions live from the West London Academy in Northolt.

I'm Nicky Campbell.

Parents are usually delighted

when their children want to follow the family's faith.

But it's often a different matter when a teenager or young adult

chooses a new religious direction, especially

if the organisation they have chosen to follow has a charismatic leader,

very different beliefs, or results in total separation from the family.

In other words, they fear their beloved child has been

recruited into what some would call "a cult".

So this morning we're asking just one very Big Question -

is there a difference between a cult and a religion?

To debate it, we have some distinguished scholars,

current members of several new religious movements,

campaigners against cult techniques, concerned parents

and people whose lives have been changed for ever.

And they will be encouraged by our very lively London audience.

As always you can join in too.

Just log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions

where you'll find links to continue the discussion online.

So how would you categorise the following?

Opus Dei, the Children of God,

the Church of Scientology, the Unification Church,

Branch Davidian, Jews for Jesus...

Their members may think of them as a religion,

but their critics have called them cults.

Is there a difference between a cult and a religion?

We've got Glenn Carter here. Hi, Glenn.

Head of the Raelian movement in this country,

so it's the equivalent of having the Archbishop of Canterbury on.

Let's just go through your beliefs just to remind people.

You believe that we're all descended from aliens,

who came to Earth, known as the Elohim?

Elohim, yes. I believe that life here was created by human beings,

by scientists.

-Right, and Jesus and Mohammed...

-Were prophets.

..and Buddha and Moses were all prophets who came from the Elohim?

Yes, yes.

And you... Your founder, Claude Vorilhon - Rael -

he was not abducted,

you wouldn't use the word abducted, he was contacted by aliens.

What happened?

He was contacted, he went to a place

and he was given a message to share with humanity.

Make no profit out of it, to make no money, just to publish the book

and give it away, which is what he's been doing for 40 years.

And the message is?

That life here was created by human beings,

just like we, as a scientific society going forward

and beginning to learn how to create life ourselves...

Cloning's big in your belief.

Cloning... However... Creating unique life forms from scratch,

using genetic techniques.

We will, as we evolve, in our scientific development,

go out to other planets and create... Like we have a biosphere, in Britain

and we'll go out and create unique indigenous life to a planet somewhere. That's what happened here.

-So we will be the Elohim of the future?

-Exactly.

-And that is the never-ending cycle.

-Right, OK.

For you, immortality is through cloning?

All we believe is that there is no ethereal God,

no mysticism in that respect,

so what we believe is that there is only an afterlife if science creates one,

we don't do our... We're not evangelical at all.

People come to us, they find a book in a bookshop, or they search us out online.

But if they come, they come to help

other people find that message if they wish to,

not for a reward of eternal life

because we don't believe there is one, unless science creates one.

And how do you feel about the derision and the contempt

that you get from, established religions, mainstream religions?

I actually feel, I feel a great deal of compassion for the mind

that behaves in that way, to be honest with you.

I feel sorry for people who hate without understanding,

who condemn without really researching and trying to understand

what I believe, and that it's benevolent, it's not in any way

aggressive to anybody.

As I say, we don't go out and grab people, induct people,

people stay with their families, they live their lives.

I'm an actor, I've been an actor for 30 years...

How has it affected your career since you were known as a Raelian?

Since I became publicly known as a Raelian,

I went from being possibly the top 1 or 2% earners in my area of acting,

to being pretty much unemployable, for doing nothing.

I was the same person ten years before that,

but I haven't worked to the degree I used to work for ten years now.

Really?

But that is a level of discrimination which I don't think is intentional,

I don't say people say, "He's in a cult,

"therefore he shouldn't be allowed to work."

I think people are fearful and they say...

What I hear is,

"Oh, he's not necessarily a good member of a company."

So some things go... Francesca, is this...? People are derisive of beliefs like this.

Some would argue it's no different from believing in a virgin birth

-or a resurrection, or...

-I think there's no difference at all between a cult and a religion

in terms of what it's doing for the members of those religious groups.

-No difference?

-No. The main... It's...

People think a cult is something that's different from the norm,

but what's one religion to judge another religion? It's about size.

Size matters and I think it's about size,

and as long as people aren't harming other people...

I mean, that's another accusation that's made to cults -

that they're harmful -

but then, mainstream religions can be harmful.

What about all the academic material?

I'm referring to academic material because you're a member of the academic community

that supports the argument

that cults are using psychological coercion.

We know what these techniques are,

we know what the end result is and the impact on the human mind.

-Ian, Ian.

-Free choice is removed.

One second. Are the Raelians dangerous?

They represent a group about which we're very concerned

and I would equate them with the Moonies.

You mentioned the Jews for Jesus earlier

and that I would see in a different category altogether and not a problem.

But for legal reasons, I have to word things in a particular way

because these groups have a tiresome habit of suing.

-I was...

-Could you say what the problem with Raelians is so that we understand why

you have a concern about them?

Em...

-I have to...

-Cos I know nothing about them!

-I have to word things very carefully...

-Of course.

..because I might have to prove certain things I could say in a court of law.

-But what is it...?

-What I can say is that the same concerns

that families have that call me when they have loved ones

who've become involved in one of the groups

about which we're concerned,

in terms of those loved ones becoming alienated,

changing for the worse and so on,

are the same things we've heard about people who've become involved in the Raelians.

-Can I interrupt?

-I've talked to people who are ex-members and they take time to recover.

What you're actually using there are psychological, manipulative techniques

to turn the opinion of an audience against...

-I don't expect you...

-You're saying "I could offer information but I can't just in case,

"but take it from me, I'm a scholar, that you and those people are bad."

What you haven't done is say anything that's real,

you've passed an opinion and used manipulative techniques to do that,

and yet I'm sat here being honest with you.

Be honest with me.

Glenn, thank you. Ian. Rabbi in a minute.

Let me talk about the group represented by our friend next door to you.

The Unification Church?

The Unification Church was involved in a landmark case in 1980.

It finished up in the High Court where the Moonies sued the Daily Mail.

The Daily Mail won the case.

The Daily Mail had accused the Moonies

of what it described as brainwashing and breaking up families,

and it proved its case in the High Court.

-GLENN: Brainwashing is impossible!

-We're not talking about an academic debate here,

-we're talking about something proven in the legal system...

-OK, Simon.

If we're going to go back in time a bit...

One of the interesting things

is Reverend Moon told the British leadership

"Don't sue on this, it's a waste of time, it's not going to..."

A mistake was made.

We lost the court case, but, and then they got

the government to set up a commission to investigate our charitable status,

and they did way more work on that

than they did on the court case, on the libel case.

In their final conclusion there was no case to be had for our charitable status.

Let me finish! I've forgotten who it was from the anti new religious movement...

You won't say the C word, will you?

..who spoke in the libel case,

but certainly an MP made an apology in the House of Commons

for what he said in the libel case about our movement,

and interestingly enough, just about a couple of years ago, we buried the hatchet with the Daily Mail.

We've buried the hatchet with a lot of media organisations

that we've had a lot of misunderstanding with.

I think new religious movements can be a bit like,

a little bit obnoxious teenagers, sometimes -

they're not very good at communicating everything they're trying to get across, but...

All right. Listen, we'll come to you a little bit more later on, Simon. I want to investigate exactly

what the difference is between a religion and a cult.

-Aren't religions, Rabbi Schochet, just successful cults?

-No.

A religion in the first instance

is predicated on the belief in a deity

and a cult, in the first instance,

is predicated usually on the belief in a particular man

who concocted something which he then chose to define as a religion

and invariably then preys on people, the vulnerable in particular,

looks to lure them in.

It's often about being able to create a certain kind of power,

money base and whatever else besides.

-FRANCESCA:

-On that basis...

-Let me just say this. That's the essential difference...

Exactly the same!

That's the essential difference between a religion and a cult.

I'll only say this on that basis -

I think it's wrong that you should have been discriminated against

in your work on account of your personal beliefs,

that shouldn't have happened, for whatever the reasons, fear or whatnot.

My single issue with any cult or any person's individual belief,

is when you go out there and you look to lure other people,

whether out of other faiths or out of no faith,

and get them to try and embrace your belief.

-Did you believe the Jews...

-So the Labour Party.

Wait, wait!

Like the Labour Party, he said. You believe the Jews for Jesus do this, don't you?

Jews for Jesus do this in a very big way.

-Jews for Jesus, that's you.

-Jews for Jesus are a bunch of Jewish people

who have come to see that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

We believe as you all know, the classic Christian belief,

that Jesus died for our sins, rose from the dead,

this is what we believe, and we're like, "Who would I share this with?"

I'd share it with my people, with other Jewish people just like me.

I believe he's the Jewish Messiah, if somebody doesn't want to talk to me, I don't lure them.

I stand on the street, I wear a big T-shirt so everyone knows exactly what I believe,

and I say, "Hey, what do you think about Jesus?

"If you don't want to talk, don't. If you want to talk, let's do that."

But I don't stand on the street and stop, I don't know, vulnerable Christians

or whoever else and say, "Hey, what do you think about Judaism?"

I don't look to lure them into my faith.

-That's your choice.

-I grant you that, that's why I say anything that essentially takes away

other people's critical thinking and particularly,

and I know a lot about Jews for Jesus over the years,

I've encountered so many of them,

particularly those who are vulnerable and have their minds, if you like,

ensnared in some kind of brainwashing technique.

What's different about bringing up a child in your religion

and the fact that they're born in that religion,

they grow up in that religion, they know nothing else?

In what way is their mind not ensnared, in a sense?

They are always left with an open mind to be able,

and there are many - sadly, if you like -

Jews who walk away from their Jewish faith.

I know again categorically

that Jews for Jesus uses clear brainwashing techniques -

befrienders, what have you, things that are done to ensnare them.

You believe you've got good news, don't you?

Yeah, I just hang out with people in coffee shops - Starbucks, Costa, these are my offices.

This is why I hang out with people,

I don't really use a technique other than, you know, the Bible, I suppose.

-If the Bible's...

-Jews for Jesus is a deceptive term.

-Really?

-That's one of the problems.

-Why is it a deceptive term?

Because to be Jewish you don't believe in Christ, OK?

So Jews for Jesus is a deception

that Jewish people can retain their Judaism

while believing in Jesus Christ

and they use many deceptive techniques.

They have people that they say are rabbis who were never rabbis,

and were never Jewish,

and they target the Jewish community during vulnerable times such as Christmas

when it's very alienating to be Jewish,

it's like the entire world is Christian.

They run advertisements at those times to reach people who might be in pain.

Are they dangerous?

Are they dangerous? They're dangerous to particular people if they alienate them

from their families and if they are using a deceptive techniques.

-If we ever use a deceptive technique, I'd love somebody to let me know.

-The name, the name itself.

OK, well, let me ask you this question.

Jesus is Jewish. All the disciples were Jewish.

If he IS the Jewish Messiah,

what could be more Jewish than believing in Jesus?

I mean, what could be more Jewish?

APPLAUSE

You disagree he's the Messiah. You disagree that he died to cover your failings, fine!

-You need to give Rabbi Schochet a leaflet.

-LAUGHTER

Cristina, while we're on the subject of Jesus,

I'd like to quote the Bible to you, a book of which you are a big fan.

Jesus said, and this was Matthew - Chapter 10, Verse 37...

"He that loveth father and mother more than me, is not worthy of me

"and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

That's a pretty cultish message from Jesus, isn't it?

The very interesting thing was,

when I was looking at cults for a very different idea,

I realised that the description of the classical cult

is to have a charismatic leader...

-Jesus.

-Jesus. Who is...

-Mohammed.

-Mohammed.

..who is saying to his followers,

"This is a radical teaching and you've got to leave your family.

"You've got to leave everything that feels comfortable and that you know.

"And you must go forth and you will find that you are alienated from your surroundings."

So all of that sounds like a cult or it sounds like a religion.

But the thing that none of us has mentioned is values.

What religion asks you to do is to live by

your day-by-day values.

Values that are transcendental...

You know, ask yourself,

when somebody says to you, "Are you a member of a cult or are you a member of a religion?"

Ask yourself, "What do I do for others?"

Cos that's what religion asks.

What cults ask is, "What are you doing for me, your leader?

"What are you doing for us, our little group?"

Let me bring Francesca back, then I'll come to you Livingstone. Francesca, respond to that point.

The difference, the clear difference that Cristina has identified.

I think it's very hard to say that religions rather than cults ask,

"What do you do for other people?"

There are a lot of "cultic" movements

that do an awful lot of charity work, for example.

I don't think that's a fair distinction to draw.

Charity is not... When talking about other people...

The main point is about perceptions of damage

and it's outside perceptions of damage

versus inside perceptions of damage...

-CRISTINA:

-What d'you mean...?

-I'm about to tell you.

Is the person within this religious group being damaged somehow

psychologically, physically, sexually?

And you can't draw a distinction there either

between a religion and a cult.

For example, we all know that...

It's people that are dangerous, not necessarily religions per se

or cults per se.

It's the people within them.

If you've got someone on a power trip

within a Christian church or a Jewish community,

you may as well have a person

who's on a power trip in any other kind of way.

APPLAUSE

In a minute. Cristina.

Except that with a religion

you have a much wider body which will rein in the power-crazed people.

A religion and a cult, the main difference is size.

-That's the main difference.

-Not at all, not at all.

Some cults are very small, as well.

We had a clear thing there. The main difference is size.

You'll all get a chance.

It's a long programme on one topic, don't worry.

But Livingstone's been trying to come in and I want to speak to him.

I want everyone to hear his story.

-Livingstone, you were at Waco?

-That's correct.

In that 51-day siege you lost members of your family in the fire,

you then served 14 years for your role in defending...

Well, actually we we're...

David Koresh was the man defending his mission.

You believed that he was a prophet. He saw an angel, didn't he?

That's correct, on a visit to Jerusalem in 1985

and that's how he came by the message that was the essence of our group,

which takes me back to something that Cristina said.

I understand the values part that you spoke of

and we embrace those too.

But it was the pursuit of the truth, the knowledge of God,

that was the principal driving force.

What was David Koresh like? Give us an idea.

Well, much like you.

LAUGHTER

I doubt it.

You don't play the guitar, that's the only difference, huh?

They say these leaders are charismatic, these cult leaders are charismatic.

-Not in the sense of those stereotypes.

-No, OK.

He's no different than your person who is sincerely trying to find God

and you're putting your entire being in that effort.

If that makes you charismatic, then, OK.

OK, OK, but people followed him because the message was important?

No, no, it's not HIM that was followed.

-It's the message.

-The truth.

-The truth.

The same truth that those who were there,

the members who were there, was the same truth that David followed.

David was merely the point of reference through which that truth was given,

by reason of the fact that he had that initial experience

by which the truth came.

Now we can go into a dissection of that.

From that, you get a better understanding of what David's about.

You very much believe that message is as true now as it was then

and it's an eternal truth, and we are in the end times?

Indeed.

You don't look back and say,

"That was madness," you absolutely stand by everything?

Absolutely.

There is no reason for...

As a matter of fact, the events that have unfolded since then, in the 20 years since Waco,

have corroborated all that we held true.

In terms of what's going on in the world right now

and what is to come as a result of the events that are now unfolding.

So it encompasses a world view that extends way into the future -

the Messianic Kingdom that will go on for another thousand years

and from then, we go into eternity itself.

This is a hope. The hope for mankind in the present situation.

Now, only as you can see it in the context of the truth that we held,

can you really understand why the events of 1993

turned out the way they did.

Why did they have to separate themselves into a compound? Why was that necessary?

Well, it's no different to going to a university.

You're children come and they go and they go to university.

Except that we're dealing with spiritual truths.

What about the guns that were stockpiled at Waco?

I understand. I knew you would come to that.

It seems relevant. Why were the guns there?

Well, for one, we were called that we would be attacked.

So the objective of the guns was as a deterrent.

Now, you've got to understand in the context...

You were called that you'd be attacked?

Well, part of our message dealt with prophecy.

You were attacked by the agency because of the guns.

Now called the Tobacco and Firearms Agency.

That's what they said.

David wasn't a very good prophet, was he?

He couldn't prophesy what actually happened.

-That's unfair.

-But, in fairness...

No, in fairness here, we're talking about...

If you're going to make a statement like that

and then just jump to something else, let me address it.

When you say David was not a good prophet...

I'm just picking up on a single issue that you mentioned.

Most of this as far as I'm concerned, is irrelevant

because I would fight for your right to believe

whatever you choose as long as you choose it.

The issue is, what is the difference between a cult and a religion?

We're talking about the difference...

Was this a cult?

We're talking about a group there that was certainly of concern

and I would have had the same concerns about it

as I did at the time,

as I do about the other groups that we've referred to earlier today.

We're talking about a difference here between conversion

and coercion.

Rabbi, you talked about the problems associated with evangelism,

and proselytising.

My understanding is that the word "proselyte" meant someone who'd converted to Judaism originally,

but that practice did cease by and large

in the majority of the Jewish community a few hundred years ago.

There are still some that do proselytise but only within the Jewish community.

There's nothing wrong with proselytising, there's nothing wrong with sharing your perspective...

Sharing the message.

..and giving people a chance to exercise free choice.

What we're concerned with is that cults

remove free choice and do so very effectively

through the use of techniques of psychological coercion.

You keep using that phrase, "They remove your blah, blah, blah."

The thing is, you don't actually know that.

I mean, I run the Raelian movement in this country

and we don't do anything other than what we're doing now, which is debate.

We debate, and talk about ourselves

and run campaigns against things like paedophilia,

against bad behaviour and the oppression of human beings,

and yet you're sat there saying that

we're concerned about groups like this.

I'm concerned about you and I could just as easily

cast aspersions over your good name by saying I've heard things about you

that I'm not prepared to say in this programme,

but I've heard things about your sexual habits.

What I'm saying is, those things...

That's outrageous to say something like that.

What I'm saying is, those things are easy to say,

they're not very easy to back up.

That is exactly the technique...

It is very easy to back up the whole issue that cults use psychological coercion.

That is exactly the technique that you are using over my philosophy.

Professor.

Wait a minute, Professor. We have - without casting any more aspersions about each other -

Professor, we have something really fascinating there from Livingstone.

It was all about truth. This is the truth.

And is there something in that that various groups,

whether they be a religion or a cult,

we can get the situation where they think they have a monopoly on the truth?

That's what we're getting at.

One second, let's get Professor on this.

Well, most of the time I would say that all organisations

have the propensity to be manipulative or to damage people

and it's about organisational practices, not about beliefs.

Groups are on a continuum,

not all of them end up with mass suicides, thankfully,

not all organisations,

but the fact is that on occasions the belief system, if it does take over people psychologically,

and there is evidence for that in the literature...

It doesn't happen in all religious groups,

it doesn't happen in all groups that are on the cultic spectrum,

but when it does happen, as with the Branch Davidians,

-it can have catastrophic effects on individuals...

-I've got to address...

There's a statement that Christ made 2000 years ago.

I and the Father are one.

In the pursuit of truth and of God, it is designed to bring us

into a being or a state of being that is in harmony with the Divine.

Now if the world and everything about the world

is out of kilter with God,

then obviously those who pursue that

are going to seem by the world to be...different.

Francesca, are the problems here inherent in people taking things in the Bible literally?

With every respect to Livingstone,

Revelations is the true word of God as far as he's concerned.

Yeah, I mean, I think the point about monopoly is right...

-On truth?

-Exactly.

Some people think they have an exclusive access

to this divine truth that's revealed in the Bible,

but the Bible is a very contradictory collection of texts.

Francesca, I don't believe you believe that.

-I do believe that!

-I don't believe you.

-She's an academic.

-I know what I'm talking about.

-That's problematic!

THEY LAUGH That's problematic.

-Cole Moreton...

-I feel sorry for you.

Cole Moreton, isn't it fascinating hearing Livingstone?

-It really is. It's fairly clear...

-From a guy who was at Waco?

I'd be fascinated to spend an hour talking to Livingstone on his own

about what happened at Waco and the ramifications of that.

I think what's really interesting in the wider debate here

is that we're in a culture at the moment,

a society where people on the whole, en masse, have said,

"We don't want to belong, we don't want to be part of an organisation.

"Even the Church of England, which is about as mild as it gets in the religious spectrum,

"we don't want to be part of that"

and yet within that circle,

there are groups that are getting bigger and bigger

because they're preaching certainty

and the ones that are attracting the most attention are the ones that are absolutely giving you certainty.

Now I understand that, because as a teenager I embraced a group

that was absolutely about certainty,

and some days I'm nostalgic for it, frankly.

I wish I could go back and know exactly who I was and what I was trying to do.

That was a missionary group. What's missing? What's lacking?

You wake up in the morning and you know exactly what you're doing,

where you're going, what you believe in and what you're meant to do about it.

That's tremendously liberating actually. And I'm nostalgic for it.

I don't believe many of the things upon which that was based at the time,

but I'm nostalgic for the sense of purpose.

You could say that about some of the great monotheistic religions -

the precepts are laid out, you know what to do and how to do it. Francesca, you're nodding.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's not really that easy. I mean...

I've got a faith with absolutes in it and there's a theology around it,

but I don't wake up every morning feeling completely purposeful.

-And I think...

-Perhaps you ought to look for another one, then.

LAUGHTER

Well, can I answer that?

-Can I answer that?

-Of course you can.

I just signed up for a course at...

Holy Trinity Brompton's theology course.

I am a Pastor. I've got a congregation of 165 people.

For the Unification Church of...

I haven't got any formal theological training...

I can see a lot of the things that the established Church has done

and is doing,

are things that I don't have in my organisation

and I think there's a lot for us to learn from the established faiths,

and there's things the established faiths can learn from newer faiths.

You know, we're sitting here, like, in the Houses of Parliament,

with a line down the middle,

and I think a personal relationship with God

is too precious and important

for us to start playing power politics with his name.

You talk about power politics.

I hope you won't think me impertinent,

but the Reverend Moon is being accused - your founder - of being the ultimate power junkie,

because he became a very...

He saw God, he saw Jesus or was it an angel?

He had a personal experience of Jesus around Easter

when he was a Sunday School teacher, as a teenager.

And Jesus told him the truth,

that he had to relay to the rest of the world...

He had a conversation with him and from that,

various revelations came out.

From those revelations, he became a very wealthy man, didn't he?

Em, well, the movement's a big worldwide movement,

he's personally not a person of wealth, I don't think, no.

That's... That's one of the...

The Archbishop of Canterbury is much richer

in terms of the body and size of his organisation,

so I think that's a really unfair...

When he had children - the Reverend Moon and his wife -

his children were the first ever to be born without original sin, is that right?

GIGGLING IN AUDIENCE

I mean, I didn't come on the programme

to have people sit behind me sniggering.

People need to understand the beliefs.

-You know...

-Answer the question, then.

His children were the first to be born ever without original sin.

-We have a theology...

-Three of them committed suicide.

-Three of the kids committed suicide?

-We have a theology

about the message that he got from Jesus.

Jesus asked him to continue his work,

that he went on a path - if you want to study it you can study it -

that was an incredible path, and he has a vision

to create the family that was lost...

Children who are without original sin and he kicked that off.

But children, you know, people have their own responsibility.

His children are far from perfect, there's been lots of mistakes

and our movement is far from perfect.

I don't hold my movement up to be the answer to,

you know, world salvation,

but I think our faith has a lot to contribute

and I think if we could get away from a bit of the antagonism,

if I could have a bit of time in Starbucks with Ian,

like our friend over here does with his friends...

-You're on, we'll meet.

-OK.

I've been leading, the last four years, the Unification movement in the UK

and one of my main policies has been transparency.

I've put all our accounts up on the web,

I've put my own wage up there,

I've put all the things that...

And I think if we get a bit more transparent with each other

and really know what each other's lives are like...

You know, when I walked into church this morning, the girl from my music team

told me about an illness her father has, er, and...

cos I could see she wasn't happy...

That's what real people in real religions are dealing with.

Communities, families, helping people to grow,

helping people to change their lives so that they can be happier...

Does that extend to a duty of care

to every single member of your organisation?

Like Ian, I have spoken to countless ex-members

of the Unification Church or movement,

who talk of being isolated from their families,

talk about the way in which the church took over their lives,

the fact that if they try and leave, people try and...

-When was this?

-Well, countless examples, over many decades.

In the last 10, 20 years?

Yes, absolutely.

If you're saying your movement's reforming, that's a great thing.

-If you're looking after your members.

-It is.

In that case, would you allow psychologists such as myself to work with your church...

I'd love it, I'd love it.

..to test whether members are actually functioning healthily like all organisations...

I will come to you in a minute, Livingstone.

That offer's been accepted. Let's hear from other people.

Gentleman at the back, what would you like to say?

One of the things I've noticed, I'm an atheist,

but I saw a quote by Buddha

and it would deal with all the cults hands down.

It says, "Do not believe anything because you see it,

"because you read it in a religious book,

"because religious teachers say so, and includes 'because I say so.' "

In other words, Buddha said,

"If I say something stupid, it's stupid.

"Do not follow ANYTHING, always use your own common sense,

"your own reason,

"your own sense of fairness. Do not believe anything,"

and in regards to truth, well, there's a TV show,

it's called Myth Busters,

where they go and test out things like...

Can a mouse scare an elephant?

Get an elephant, get a mouse

and go prove every single thing you SAY, once and for all.

So there's no accepted truths.

It's the same as don't smoke, because all your friends do.

It's the same principle with religions, and like you said,

it's just a case of size, or is the leader dead or not?

Thank you. Yes, sir?

As a Muslim,

we define religion as...

I meant, like the Rabbi did say,

around the creator.

This creator is everlasting, he has no beginning, he has no end.

He is the creator of everything in existence.

-Do you think Islam started as a cult?

-No.

It wouldn't have because before Islam,

there were other religions before Islam.

-Do you think it started as a cult?

-No, I don't.

You know that only two years ago the Governor of Tennessee

was trying to brand Muslims as part of a cult.

And I think that what we haven't discussed yet is how threatened

organised religions and atheists like Francesca,

feel by new religions.

Why do they feel threatened?

They feel threatened because things are really askew as you put it.

The economy's in a total state of collapse,

global economy is doing badly,

people are without work, people are without hope,

and we are latching on to anything that offers spiritual guidance.

OK, gentleman here.

I want to talk to Livingstone about Branch Davidians.

One thing you forgot to mention was the sexual abuse that went on in Waco.

I mean, David Koresh would come down and talk to his congregation

about the young children he'd sexually abused that day.

I don't know how you can condone that.

Your name is?

I don't have to tell you my name.

It's on the record, Livingstone. He sexually abused children at Waco.

I don't know how you can still say you're a Branch Davidian.

-Livingstone.

-Nicky, I didn't really come here for that.

I didn't know he was going to say it.

-That's the problem. You didn't come here for that.

-Let me finish.

He has one man who says what he heard from Jesus,

you've got another man who heard what he heard from Jesus,

he's got another man with his own interpretation from Jesus.

-Will the real one please stand up?

-IAN:

-That's why we need to look at the methodology...

Livingstone.

-I wanted to come back...

-Please.

..to the issue of cults and religion.

I understand what you're saying and I understand how you might even perceive that.

But it's not as you perceive it. And here's the thing.

Did you question the person that put that in your mind?

-You're telling me sexual abuse didn't go on, in Waco?

-No, no.

I'm not trying to tell you that, what I'm trying to say to you...

You know it went on there.

-Livingstone, let me ask you, did sexual abuse go on at Waco?

-No.

-No?

-No.

-Look me in the eye and say that

-No.

OK.

-Now let me finish.

-There were several witnesses.

-Hold on.

I don't necessarily believe it, but he looked me in the eye and said it.

Did you question the persons that put that in your mind?

There are several witnesses to it.

David Koresh would regularly sexually abuse young children at Waco

and he would come down to his congregation and he would talk about it.

He said he was justified to do it because of his religion.

When David Koresh actually presents that with you, to you,

and it turns out that your belief was incorrect...

-He can't, he's dead.

-No, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

When he actually presents that to you,

and it turns out that your belief was incorrect,

are you prepared to take the consequences for that?

Yes, it's on FBI records.

That's all I'm here to find.

Listen, the accusations... Let me say this,

you absolutely believe this gentleman will have to take the consequences of saying that

about a man who was sent as a prophet from God, that's fascinating.

Sexual abuse is often seen, and sexual exploitation,

as at the very heart of many of these movements,

these new religions,

or some of them that have been referred to as cults by some people.

And Juliana, growing up in the Children of God,

you went through hell, didn't you?

Yes.

I just want to take you back to the whole question

that we're actually here to discuss,

which is the difference between cult and the new religious movement.

Before that, for people who don't know,

cos you know everything about the Children of God,

-you were born into the Children of God.

-Yes.

Many at home might not be so well acquainted.

David Berg, another man who saw Jesus, or was visited by an angel...

It's the standard fare.

They all think they are the mouthpiece of God

and they all have a handle on the Almighty's will,

and everybody sort of follows him as the figurehead of God

-and so, you know, with that...

-And there was a lot of child abuse in the movement.

There was, but, you know,

it's not something that people go into thinking,

"OK, I'm going to join a cult, I'm going to abuse children,

"I'm going to do this and this."

It's a steady conditioning that happens over a period of time.

I think there's a lot of scientific and psychological studies

that have been done on the effects of groupthink,

of when people are put into an isolated environment

with extremist ideas or beliefs,

what is possible for a normal human being to do to another human being.

I think everybody knows the standard,

the Stanford Prison Test or the Milgram's Obedience Test,

even Nazi Germany,

you know, what happened on a massive scale to an entire race of people,

but they were doctors who were slaughtering children,

they were, you know, people who would normally be in the caring professions.

It can happen to anyone, but the problem as I see it

is that there's so much hair-splitting over this idea that

"Oh, are they a new religious movement? What should we call them? A cult? A high demand organisation?"

It's drawing attention away from the bigger issue

which is, we need to look at

the effects of what their belief system...

Are they harming people, are they harming other people in the group?

Are they taking away people's liberty?

Are they controlling people's information?

Are they keeping people within...?

How old were you when you thought, "This is wrong?"

I honestly never believed, I was never a believer.

I never considered myself a member.

I was born into it without choice and this is...

There's a large demographic of children around the world born into these groups

who aren't given a full picture of the world...

When you saw that sexual abuse around you...

As you grew up and it happened to you,

why didn't you go to the authorities, were you a prisoner?

Well, yeah, you're kept within a compound, very much like Waco

-where you're behind walls.

-No, not very much like Waco.

-How do you know?

-I was there!

I was in mine, and you know, David Berg glorified David Koresh

and called you all martyrs.

Sure, sure.

David Berg called them martyrs?

And he said that we probably would suffer a similar fate as you.

I think this is key, actually.

What about the attitude to people in the Children of God to those who were not?

In other words, the rest of us.

Within these groups it's very much an "us versus them" mentality,

so, you know, you feel justified in feeling superior to everybody else

cos you have the truth and the answer.

-What did you call people who were not in the movement?

-Systemites.

-Systemites?

-Yeah.

The police were called Romans

and people who we thought we could convert into the group

were called Sheep, which is interesting because in society there's the sheep

and there's the shepherds.

There's the followers and there's the leader.

There's the controlled and there's the controlling.

-I'm sorry what was her name?

-Juliana.

-Juliana.

Juliana. What you've explained there, and what you experienced,

and I hope it hasn't had too negative an effect on you...

-Not at all.

-OK!

That does not characterise Waco.

That does not reflect how things were with us.

I don't know the exact dynamics of what went on, but that's not my point.

You made a comment.

How has it affected you?

OK, for me, it's been a journey towards

what I believe in my own person,

but I know that other kids from my social dynamic

have struggled much more than I did.

There's a very high suicide rate.

Just in the first two months of this year,

there was four suicides from my group, the youngest being 16.

They have a very difficult time adjusting into society

when they leave.

They're not given the mechanisms to adapt into society.

They're generally not given a good education,

certainly not a formal one that they can get a job with.

They're often denied medical care.

There's a whole environment where there's not enough

of the transparency within these groups.

There are no child protection policies in these groups

and this is where harm can happen.

You have survived.

Can we not just lump all of these groups together, cos I mean...?

Half of my congregation, they're all across the park at Imperial College.

Everyone's moved out of living in missionary centres.

Everyone's got their own house,

they've got a job, they work for a bank, they're a bus driver...

-Exactly the same in the Raelian movement.

-This is why I don't believe we should be lumped together,

we need to look at the effects of particular groups,

what is happening with them...

You can't say that all of them are harmful or negative.

Ian Haworth.

This issue of sexual abuse has come up.

Juliana has talked about that in the group she was in.

I actually challenged a member, a leader actually of that group,

the Children of God,

about the sexual abuse

and he said, "Oh, there's no sexual abuse here."

Another ex-member said later, "Well, of course, because we didn't define it as abuse.

"We said if we were having sexual relations with children,

"that was done in love and therefore it wasn't abuse."

I find this important.

Rabbi Schochet, what have the bad effects been, psychologically...

The brain is a very vulnerable organ, isn't it?

It is indeed. Let's be very clear.

There's a lot of banter here about having the monopoly on truth.

In essence, logically, rationally,

if you belong to any particular faith,

you have to obviously believe that that is absolute truth,

to the exclusion of all others,

otherwise you have no business believing in that faith in the first instance.

The problem is when it spills over into excess,

such that you then have disregard for people of other faiths,

and say, that if you're not a member of my faith,

then you are just not a good human being, you serve no purpose in life.

That's where it all goes wrong.

Essentially, if you go around over here amongst the front row,

when they're sitting in Waco as far as they're concerned,

unless I embrace that way of life, then essentially I'm damned to hell.

Frankly, as far as he's concerned if I don't embrace Jesus,

I'm damned to hell as well.

That's where there's the problem.

Is he damned to hell? He says you're not.

-It's...

-You don't believe in the New Testament.

I do, hang on a second. >

The thing is we all must recognise and this is where we start,

we all have to recognise we all fail, we're all messed up people,

none of us are perfect, right?

Now I believe that the only way

of having those failures covered over...

The only way?

Yeah, the only way is through Jesus. Right?

But I don't believe that Jesus is going to send me to hell if I don't believe in him.

Answer the question. If I don't embrace Jesus, what's my destiny?

If you continue living the life that you live, like anyone else...

This dissolute, sinful life that you live?

But all of us...

I've seen you drinking whisky.

And it was good too!

And I am just as messed up,

probably more messed up than the Rabbi, right?

In my life.

But the problem is I think that God sent out this way of mercy.

So it's not God that actually sends me to condemnation, I send myself.

You didn't answer my question.

And God's the one that saves.

Livingstone's going to answer your question,

then we're going to move onto a comparatively new religion,

which calls itself a church but is nothing to do with God.

Answers on a postcard. That's just in a minute.

Rabbi Schochet, that judgment is left to God.

Not to him, not to me, not to any other human being.

Even Christ says, remember Matthew 7?

"Judge not, lest you be judged.

"For whatever judgment you make, be made to you."

Or is it left to your subjective interpretation of what God said?

Which can be very different to his subjective interpretation.

You judge my interpretation to be subjective?

That's your judgment of me.

That's why every movement and every cult and every religion

should be held up to scrutiny

and if there's objective criteria

by which to determine the authenticity of the faith, then great.

If not, it falls down.

I agree with you, I agree with you.

Wait a minute, everybody.

Let's move on, let's move on now. I'll get a chance to come back to you, hopefully.

Right, OK. If not in this life, in the next.

-John...

-You'll wait a long time.

-NICKY LAUGHS

-I know that, Glenn.

John, former Scientologist. Right.

What's the leaving like?

It's a very baffling experience, particularly,

and I think this may be something that defines a cult,

because of the attack that you receive from the group.

Because when you're expelled you're shunned, you're disconnected.

-APPLAUSE

-Now, let's just make it clear...

And if the Raelians don't do that, Glenn, then that's great.

We're not generalising, we're talking about this particular group.

And that's perfect. But I think what's not clear from what I'm hearing,

is people are saying here, what's happening with cults is this and this and this,

but I'm classed, in this meeting, as a cult. I'm telling you now...

We are identifying problematic techniques that are sometimes used,

and let's further explore those.

I agree with that, that's a valid thing.

But clarity's important.

-Can I perhaps interpose a definition?

-That'd be nice.

This is from the American Family Foundation in 1985.

"A cult, a totalist cult, to give it a full definition,

"is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive

"devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing

"and employing unethical, manipulative

-"or coercive techniques of persuasion and control..."

-That's the key bit.

"..designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders

"to the possible or actual detriment

"of members, their families, or the community."

And I'm not accusing anybody of being a cult.

I want to hear his story and I'll come to you if I can.

Right, OK.

So you had to pay quite a lot of money

to progress through the courses over a number of years.

I met somebody who'd given 2 million to Scientology

and who ended up in hospital.

And you eventually qualified,

you paid for courses to progress up the 26 levels

and you reached the level whereby you were made privy to the secret.

-Yes.

-What's the secret?

The secret is that we're all composed

of millions of little beings,

we're not individuals,

and so our thoughts and our feelings are confused by this.

The idea is to extract our souls

from these clusters of little beings.

-Thetans?

-Body Thetans, yes.

-Which came from an intergalactic war...

-Yes.

-AMERICAN ACCENT:

-75 million years ago, in this sector of the galaxy.

You're channelling L Ron Hubbard now, aren't you?

Very nearly, yeah.

So... Just supposing, let's take a leap of imagination.

Just supposing this is nonsense, this Thetan business.

Just supposing it's not true for one second.

Why do sane, rational, intelligent human beings buy it - literally -

and buy into it?

Well, it's a secret.

I'd been a member for seven years before this was put to me

so you know, I'd gone along that road a long way.

In fact, the day that I opened the pack to these materials,

I said, "This is like Colin Wilson's novel, The Mind Parasites,"

it didn't make sense to me.

But I said, "I've been on this road for seven years,

"I'll check it. I'll see."

And I still never did feel convinced and two years later I left.

And how long has it...? Are you still getting over it?

No, no.

It's nearly 30 years ago since I left,

but I think the problem with people who leave is

they often consider the emotional experiences they had

rather than questioning the truth of the teachings.

Scientology claims to be scientific.

So if you look at its tenets and discuss them openly,

you find it's not scientific.

L Ron Hubbard - he preached against drugs...

Yes, he himself admitted to having been a barbiturate addict,

in a lecture.

And he tried to cash prescriptions in East Grinstead in the '60s,

said he could give barbiturates to plants.

This is interesting, isn't it?

Cristina, you don't know what it's about until you're...

Well, everyone knows now, the secret's out, not here but previously.

-Read my book!

-That's one of the best plugs I've ever heard.

You don't know the secret until you're well into it, Cristina.

You don't really know what the beliefs are.

That is a very good magnet

for people who are feeling vulnerable and confused

-Mystery.

-The mystery.

The unfolding mystery, whereas...

-Seduced.

-Yes.

And yet, when viewing it from a distance,

Judge Laity in the mid-'80s,

described it as corrupt, sinister and dangerous.

Lots of strong words to use, and again we have to look at the methodology within a group.

Why is it that people take on board a particular world view?

If it's through free choice, fine.

If it's not, that's a serious problem.

George, we haven't heard from George yet. I'll come along. George.

I think throughout this programme

we've tended to polarise the discussion

and we've done it from the start -

what's the difference between a religion and a cult?

As if you've got religions there and cults there.

-LIVINGSTONE:

-I agree with this gentleman.

Cults brainwash you,

it's psychological coercion, it's the charismatic leader...

Francesca was saying right at the top

there is very little distinction if you look at it. It's just a matter of scale.

If you looked at the list that you put up at the beginning of the programme,

if you take something like Opus Dei,

now it's actually part of the Roman Catholic Church,

it's been approved by the Pope.

It's heavily criticised, yeah.

There's the Opus Dei Awareness Network...

Can you let me finish, please?

I'm just responding.

It is part of the Roman Catholic Church, OK, it's controversial

but that's precisely my point - which category do you put it in?

Is it part of religion, or is it something that's different?

And I think we've tended to say, "Well, religion...

"Mainstream religion has got sensible beliefs,

"cults have got these funny beliefs."

We haven't said that. Some people have said that, some people haven't said that.

I think you're being a little bit selective in your hearing.

In general, the conversation has been split between religion and cults,

and the conversation what's been said,

is a generalisation rather than actually address specific areas.

And quite frankly, I think this obscures what's really going on.

That is to say, if we're trying to find meaning,

but if we're just going to have a little circus here,

then we're having it.

What's interesting about the debate is when I employed -

and I know nothing about this gentleman's sexual habits -

but when I employed exactly the same technique,

of casting aspersions without any evidence whatsoever,

I was called ridiculous.

And yet, when this is happening on the front row here,

it's thought of as, "Oh, yes, yes, these movements are dangerous."

But the fact is the techniques of criticism are from that side,

and they are all generalised.

There are one or two absolutely real, absolutely real...

Wait, wait. Let's explore technique in a second.

One of the techniques, a cultish practice.

We're not talking about groups per se being cults,

we're talking about cultish practices within groups

whether they be sects, parts of religions, or whatever.

You've had your hand up for so long.

You were talking about,

your definition first of all of what counts as a cult.

A lot of those words that you used are actually subjective,

that this is, you know, this is manipulative.

One person's manipulative is another person's selling technique.

Manipulation means having a hidden agenda.

It means that, literally, a hidden agenda.

And I'm sure that lots of people have experienced when they belong to

established religions and they don't...

They decide to marry somebody that is not of their faith

and their families get very upset and they don't speak to them,

and people won't have green carpets

because they're Protestant, aren't Catholic...

What's the difference? This was our original contention.

They use separation.

All groups, all groups.

Political parties, religions,

they all use the, "We know what's best, those people are doing it wrong."

APPLAUSE

Barbara.

Tell us about Tom, your son.

Right.

My son is involved with an organisation

that's based on the internet.

It's not a religion,

it's run by an atheist who lives in Canada, who is an entrepreneur.

He has set up a structure

which earns him a living from voluntary donations

and subscriptions to the podcasts,

the books that he produces.

It's about philosophy, isn't it?

That's right.

Politics, philosophy, so-called free thinking.

It's apparently the biggest philosophy show on the internet.

My son was studying philosophy and critical thinking when he was at school.

He was about 16 when he first came across this website.

I imagine he Googled "philosophy podcasts,"

and there was an introduction to philosophy by this man,

who is very charismatic

and says unusual things in quite a gripping way,

and he can tell you how to be free.

He can really help you achieve personal freedom.

All you have to do is listen to some of his podcasts,

starting at the beginning of two and a half thousand.

Read his books as well.

Voluntary donations, please, because we can't run this without you,

just had a bill for the server.

Erm... When you listen to the podcasts,

it's not so much about philosophy,

it's about how evil your parents were.

How you were abused as a child,

because you didn't ask to be born, that was an unequal relationship,

therefore it's an abusive relationship.

It's nothing to do with sexual abuse, physical abuse,

beating, whatever, even emotional abuse of raising a voice

or shouting at the child, or shouting that they're stupid.

It can be just asking them to clean their room,

asking them to tidy up, lay the table.

Very simple things, do your homework.

Things that parents say routinely to their children

as they're growing up.

That's abusive, apparently.

You should get abusive people out of your life,

you should only have voluntary relationships

and that means you should

cut yourself off from your parents.

How long's since you've seen Tom?

Four years. Four years this month, in fact.

Um... He's alive and well,

I'm not sure what part of the country he's in any more.

He's very much involved with this organisation still.

He's close friends with some of the inner circle

and I can't see him coming out of it

as long as this charismatic leader is still alive -

the advert for the show.

It's growing very popular across the world,

not just in America and Canada where it's largely based,

but also in the UK, Australia, Europe.

it's like an internet radio show,

so there's a weekly show, which is live on a Sunday evening,

there's podcasts as well.

I bet Rod can enlighten us further.

Barbara, it's an incredibly powerful story.

We were saying earlier on, the brain can be very malleable and vulnerable

and Tom, paradoxically, was studying critical thinking,

but all the critical faculties seem to just disintegrate in some...

Are we all vulnerable?

I think all people are vulnerable to being manipulated

and to also having their psychology taken over

by any group or organisation.

It can be a religious group or it can be a political group.

Why might this have particularly hit home with Tom?

Because it offers ultimate truths

and on their own there's nothing wrong with that,

but if that means cutting yourself off from your family,

cutting yourself off from your career,

giving your possessions away, if it takes over your life...

The evidence is now becoming very clear in the literature

that when groups take over in that way, when they become totalistic,

that has a serious psychological effect on individuals,

as well as destroying their life chances over the period during which they're involved,

and the question to that group

is the same to any other organisation in my view is,

what are you doing to look after your members?

Now, the fact is that the law doesn't apply equally at the moment

to voluntary organisations or to religions.

The Health and Safety at Work Act, for example, that has the duty of care...

Or multinational organisations.

And the fact is, that I welcome any organisation that says it's prepared

to open itself up to that scrutiny, that says that it will allow...

-Which Simon has to you this morning.

-I welcome that.

And the Raelians have as well.

But I would say that those groups that don't,

those groups that try and allow the argument to go forward,

that somehow their beliefs allow them to do anything to anybody,

those are the groups that I would describe as destructive cults

because they elevate belief beyond anything

and it actually doesn't matter any more

the effect that that has on people.

I agree with him, I think there's no system of checks and balances within these groups

and I think that people are afraid to step on the toes,

step on people's religious rights to religious freedom

and yet forget about the effect that...

You have the right to believe whatever you want,

but the moment that your belief infringes on another's rights...

Cole, I'll give you the last word. Your thoughts.

Well, my thoughts are there'll be people sitting at home thinking,

"Well, I sort of believe in God,

"and I'm looking for truth in my life,

"but what I've heard today

"is a great number of people are all saying,

" 'I've got the truth because Jesus told me individually.' "

And actually, what I look for in a belief system,

is a belief system that's about personal freedom,

but it's about community and belonging,

and allows me to express that and to also have an appreciation

for the people around me who might have different belief systems.

I've heard that this morning

from some of the people who are in this room

and I've not heard it from others, and those are the ones that concern me.

Thank you all very much indeed, thank you.

The debate continues on Twitter, online, we're not on next week because it's Whitsun.

We'll be in Glasgow June 3rd, for now goodbye from everyone here in London

and thank you very much for watching.

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