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Good morning and welcome to The Big Questions, live from Hutchesons' | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
Grammar School in Glasgow. I'm Nicky Campbell. This weekend Syria | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
stands on the brink of a catastrophic civil war which would | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
kill hundreds of thousands of people in sectarian strife. Our | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
first Big Question: Is it immoral not to intervene in Syria? Ausama | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
Monajed, from the Syrian National Council, says the world can no | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
longer stand by and watch more children being slaughtered as they | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
were at Houla. The coalition government say, "We're all in this | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
together" but their reforms to the benefits system are hitting some | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
families harder than others. Here in Scotland politicians are looking | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
for a way to protect their constituents from the worst of the | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
Westminster-imposed cuts. Our next Big Question: Should benefits be | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
different in Scotland? The Scottish National Party MSP, Humza Yousaf, | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
says it's wrong that Scots should suffer from reforms they did not | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
support at the ballot box. Will your street be hanging out the | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
bunting and toasting Her Majesty's health this afternoon? Or are you | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
planning an escape from the Jubilee jamboree? Our last Big Question: Is | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
the Jubilee showing Britain at its best? Charles Kennedy is here to | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
lead the Royal tributes. And comedian Janey Godley defends the | :01:32. | :01:42. | |
:01:42. | :01:44. | ||
party poopers. Welcome everyone to The Big Questions. APPLAUSE | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
With Kofi Annan's peace plan for Syria in tatters, Britain, France | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
and the United States of America have all stood on the sidelines, | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
wrung their hands and agreed "something must be done" but not | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
without the backing of the United Nations, which everyone knows that | :01:56. | :02:06. | |
:02:06. | :02:06. | ||
Russia and China will veto. Around 10,000 people have already died in | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
the conflict since March last year. Is it immoral not to intervene in | :02:10. | :02:20. | |
Syria? From the Syrian National Council, Ausama Monajed, what | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
should the world do? I think that intervention is inevitable. It is | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
immoral not intervene. We cannot watch the Syrians being slaughtered | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
on our TV screens. This law intensity conflict can drag on for | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
years, given that the regime is in full control of the intelligence, | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
the army, of the public and the posts and the opposition can no | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
longer go back home and surround to oppression and dictatorship. | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
Will there be more deaths as a result of intervention? Some argue | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
that the ultimate effect would be more death and destruction? Without | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
intervention, there will be a more chaotic situation and more deaths, | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
of course. We can stop Civil War by intervening now and stop these | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
cronies from destroying the country and killing as many Syrians as they | :03:14. | :03:22. | |
wish to stay in power and maintain their grip on power. | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
APPLAUSE Charles Kennedy, we remember, of | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
course, Rwanda and the dereliction of duty there, we remember Bosnia | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
with the UN peacekeepers with their hands tied as the slaughter went on. | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
We did intervene in Kosovo to save lives, partly as a result of | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
abdication of moral responsibility as some saw in Bosnia, surely this | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
is the example to save civilian lives, where we have to do | :03:53. | :03:59. | |
something? It is. It sounds dreadful to say this, there is no- | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
one watching the programme, with not 110% sympathy to the points | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
that are being made, but without the sanctions of the United Nations | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
you cannot pick and choose. I was the Lib Dem ladder during Iraq. We | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
took a stand, people agreed or disagreed with it, but you need the | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
sanctions from the United Nations. You mention, Russia, China, but | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
also the United States. President Obama is not going to do something | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
pre-emptive, or something expeditionary, shall we say. | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
Is that because it is a difficult time in the cycle? Precisely. | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
Without the leader of the United States, in terms of personal and | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
hardware, you will not be able to achieve anything. | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
What about civilian enclaves? I mean children are being slaughtered. | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
It is aing, but we cannot be selective. You cannot make a moral | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
case, to come back to the question, you cannot make a moral case for | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
saying we can ignore or flout international legallities when it | :05:11. | :05:19. | |
suits us. There was no UN security resolution | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
in 1998. We have now a coalition D- that was a touchy point to do with | :05:25. | :05:35. | |
:05:35. | :05:38. | ||
the Russians. We have to define I legally? If you cannot carry the | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
United States, Russia and China... The question we have to ask | :05:43. | :05:50. | |
ourselves is that why are we in the West putting sons and daughters at | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
risk? Where are the Arab countries? Those countries have trillions of | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
dollars of wealth, yet are silent, that is what is immoral. | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
So they should be doing something? Reverend Sally Foster-Fulton, we | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
have a situation that here one side is, of course, the Government, they | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
are armed by Russia, they have Migs, they have surface-to-air missiles, | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
entire towns in Russia are dependant on the arms trade to | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
Syria, so Putin is not going to change his mind, is he? You have | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
hit the nail on the head. This is a complex, deep issue. Of course we | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
have a moral obligation to intervene anywhere where our | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
brothers and sisterss in this global community, where people | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
struggle and live on fear. But, the big question that we | :06:42. | :06:50. | |
really have to grapple with is what is the best way forward? Now, | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
historically, humanity has gone, any time there is violence we have | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
met violence with more violence. Look at where that has led us. At | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
least we could limit the damage, it would get too dark, the arms would | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
be too tired to hold the sword, now, with a push of a button, without | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
seeing the people we are harming we can anigh late them. We have to | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
think hard about the stance, the world we live in, should violence | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
be met with violence. What do you mean by intervention? | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
How do you save the lives? definition is key. There is no | :07:30. | :07:37. | |
point asking a question, saying is it immoral not to intervene? I | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
could say is it immoral not to drop bombs on women and in order to | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
protect other women and children? In wars people die. With this type | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
of intervention we can still hurt people. This is not a choice of | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
bombs and bullets on the one hand. Ausama Monajed says, with every | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
sympathy, no-one here does not have that, but we cannot sit back. | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
Watching this on our screens, but if we are dropping bombs we are | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
still watching with arms followeded. We could be intensifying a conflict, | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
adding to the death toll. Going to Libya with where we have moved on, | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
there are now 250 different militias. We have moved on. We | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
cannot go into Middle East countries, arming a bunch of people | :08:29. | :08:36. | |
we know little about. So this is the lesser of several | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
evils? My level of several evils is diplomacy. | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
Will diplomaty work? There is no diplomat kal solution for. This | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
there a military solution? It is to stop... This is a point. They are | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
prepared to kill millions of Syrians. It is not right to compare | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
two sides. You are stopping aggressors from aggressor -- from | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
aggression. I don't want my taxpayer money to | :09:09. | :09:16. | |
go to the Free Syrian Army to go into another village to kill people. | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
What the Free Syrian Army is doing is protecting civilians. | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
From launching attacks on civilians, from snipers killing children and. | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
More than 15,000 women and children have been killed. We have more than | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
1,of00 cases of rape. The a-- 1,6 hundreds cases of rape. The regime | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
will carry on. They are prepared to kill as many as they can in their | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
power. Russia and China are influential. It is like Egypt back | :09:51. | :10:00. | |
in the day for Russia. So strategic. Any victory, and Russia would | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
consider the collapse of the Syrian regime as a victory for the West. | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
That is the key way that Russia is objecting. Intervention has | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
different forms in different ways, Turkey was prepared to take the | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
lead, but the United States thought it was not the right time, probably | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
because of the election cycle. Speaking as an ex-military | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
officer... What is the ethical position? I think, my view is that | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
we have now got to the point where doing nothing is not an option. | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
We cannot really just stand by and watch the awful things that we have | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
seen over the past few weeks happening in Syria. There are huge | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
practical problems, of course there are. As Charles Kennedy has pointed | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
out, without the UN resolution it becomes very difficult. Without US | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
participation it is difficult they have the essential resources | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
required to do that. The USA is shifting its military focus to the | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
Pacific, but I do think that there come as point where you have to say | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
enough is enough and intervene. It is never easy. | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
How does that manifest itself? have to protect the innocents. That | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
is the moral function of military forces. | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
So by that we kill more people? may not have to kill people. The | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
primary aim is to protect those who cannot protect themselves. To | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
protect the weak from the strong. If... That sounds like a noble | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
purpose, but how do we do that? We have to put in ground troops? | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
To separate the warring factions. When did we become the equaliser of | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
the world. Who are we to keep going in sorting out everyone's fights. I | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
am appalled by the deaths in Syria, but we don't have a history of | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
working this out right. We are in the middle of two other conflicts | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
we have not finished, so I don't think we are good equalisers at | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
this. So turn our backs on it? There must | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
be another way. I would say intervention is not the | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
answer. It would only exacerbate the situation. Look at Afghanistan, | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
Iraq, and also Libya. NATO intervened there. 30,000 more | :12:23. | :12:30. | |
civilians lives' were killed once NATO had intervened. Also it just | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
adds fuel to the fire. APPLAUSE | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
I think there is hypocrisy here. In Libya, the politicians came in, | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
this is a moral case, we are stopping a slaughter, a massacre | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
happening. What is the difference with Syria? Why not intervene in | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
Syria? We don't have the reserves. That is it. George Osbourne said | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
after Libya, let's get the oil contracts for the oil companies! | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
The Syrian regime have a different level of weaponry, superyore to | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
Colonel Gaddafi. -- suepeer yore. | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
There are lots of Syrian opposition groups, you accept? There are lots | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
of jihadists? That is overstated. We see the narratives being created | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
in the West as an excuse not to intervene. | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
Is that what what it is, propaganda? We have seen what | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
happens when you go into a foreign country with Western troops and | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
think that you can take sides. should not ply what happened in | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
Iraq. You would like the Libyan model in | :13:51. | :13:59. | |
Syria? Libya threatened Europe's national security, it had the | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
energy reserves. I think that the gentleman had a | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
good point about hypocrisy. One of the reasons we are not discussing | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
this is that Syria are not Western allies. Nobody called for | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
intervention against irbl when they are slaughtering Palestinians. -- | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
Israel when they are slaughtering Palestinians. | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
Is there hypocrisy, a double standard? The whole of foreign | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
policy and diplomacy, who said we don't have permanent friends, we | :14:35. | :14:43. | |
just have permanent interests? There is a way that the world works, | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
but another practical point, as Stuart was saying, I have sympathy | :14:46. | :14:53. | |
with the point he is making, but as he knows better than me being ex- | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
military, now without the sanction of a United Nations resolution, the | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
military planners in this country or any other country, they have to | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
decide if we are going to bomb there or there, they themselves | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
could end up in the international court in the Hague, guilty of war | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
crimes if they don't have the legality behind them. | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
Illegal wars? Exactly. Tony Blair is still being hounded as he was at | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
the Leveson Inquiry over accusations he was a war criminal | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
because he launched an illegal war. If we go beyond the moral aspects, | :15:32. | :15:40. | |
I believe there is a talk for intervening, but the practical | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
aspects, Britain cannot do it on their own. | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
We are already intervening, you are talking about a point of morality. | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
It surely must be immoral to be putting in weapons and arms into an | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
unsafe conflict zone. Our memories are sho so short we have forgotten | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
what happened with the Mujahideen, we trained them up, now they are | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
kicking our backsides, now our sons and daughters are put in danger in | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
Afghanistan. But the nat is isolation? It does | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
not need to be a Western intervention. The intervening | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
forces would leave with the weapons, and not have the weapons left in | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
the country. So the forces go in and do what? | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
Destroy the capabilities of the Bashar al-Assad regime launching | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
attacks and coordinating military campaigns against civilians. | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
That sounds easy And creating a safe zone for military defectors to | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
go to. Then what? There is the assumption | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
that intervention stops things, that we will say we are coming and | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
everything will stop. This will not happen. All that we will be aed of | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
is colonisation, going in doing what we do not understand. The | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
Islamic world, Dubai will then unite against us and divide monks | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
itself. This is more complicated than justing there is a moral case | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
there. Is a moral case for the Syrian government to stop what they | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
are doing, for the rebels to try other solutions. There are all | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
sorts of moralcations to be made, but the moral case for intervention | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
is not clear. It would not stop the thing as people assume that it | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
might. If you lived in Houla and were a | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
villager there, and your children, wife had been slaughtered, had | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
their throats cut, what would you want the world to do? I would want | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
the world to stop Bashar al-Assad from killing my people, but what is | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
the best way to do that? Is sending in bombers better? If I were a | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
villager in an Alawite village bombed by the West in response, | :17:59. | :18:06. | |
what is the best way? With all respect, that is a simple approach. | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
There is a side that says you drop bombs and then the world is a | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
better place Military operations can comprise of a spectrum from | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
basic peacekeeping to what you are talking about, general war and | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
armed conflict. I think that the primary purpose for military | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
intervention would be to stop the fighting. Secondly to separate the | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
warring factions and to protect those who cannot protect themselves, | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
and then to allow the Syrian people to sort out politically by debate | :18:38. | :18:45. | |
what to do in the future. But the SNC is a big opposition | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
group but it does not represent all Syrians. | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
How to appease the Russians? They have a Naval Base, a listening post. | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
Which is very important to them. They have a weapons contract to the | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
order of �2.5 billion. That is a big diplomatic problem. | :19:06. | :19:13. | |
A huge political problem for Putin. Huge. We are getting on our high | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
horses about the Russians. Let's talk about morality, let's talk | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
about consistency. You do what you can do. We have the | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
situation for, example, of North Korea. The atrocities there are | :19:29. | :19:37. | |
unspeakable. China... Human rights in China? | :19:38. | :19:46. | |
cannot do anything? Can we? We can't cross the street and save | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
our brothers and sisters and their children there, we can't. Is this | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
not a situation where we can't do anything? When was the last time | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
that a current affairs programme like this, for example or Newsnight, | :19:59. | :20:08. | |
whatever it may be, the Andrew Marr Show discuss the situations in | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
Zimbabwe? Yet, wheel back, it was all over the place, terrible things | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
were happening, I guess that they still are. | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
The best way forward is to back the peace plan the UN and Kofi Annan, | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
shaky as it is, we have to support it. The only way there will be | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
lasting peace is to get those involved in it around the table to | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
come up with their own answer. If we go in as the military, it is | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
like putting a cap on a spring that will pop back with a vengians. We | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
have to let them handle it themselves. As painful as it is. | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
So what is feasible? But that is a failure. The regime would stop its | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
atrocities against people, they would pull troops from outside of | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
the cities and villagers, point two is to release the political | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
prisoners, 2,012 have been arrested. We have to demonstrate freely in | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
the streets, this none of this has happened. That was supposed to | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
happen. Then to enter the negotiations of the regime and the | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
regime does not want to negotiate, so the Kofi Annan plan is not | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
working as the regime does not want it to. | :21:26. | :21:34. | |
Ausama Monajed, will... They have issued statements... Ausama Monajed | :21:34. | :21:41. | |
will Bashar al-Assad end up in the dock? There have been different | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
options offered. How will end up? Similar to Colonel | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
Gaddafi's regime. We have to leave it there. | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
If you'd like to have your say about that debate, log on to | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, where you'll find links to where you can | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
continue the discussion online. We're also debating live this | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
morning from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow. "Should benefits | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
be different in Scotland?" And, Is the Jubilee showing Britain at its | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
best? Tell us what you think about those topics, or send us any | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
general comments you'd like to make about the programme. At the last | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
General Election, Scotland sent 41 Labour MPs to Westminster and 6 | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
Scottish Nationalists, versus just 11 Lib Dems and one Tory. So it's | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
not surprising that Scots find many of the policies of the coalition | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
government hard to stomach, especially the reform of the | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
welfare system. But the Scottish Parliament can only huff and puff | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
about its dissent unless, or until, they vote for independence or are | :22:35. | :22:43. | |
given more financial freedoms under devolution. Last week the Labour | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
and the SNP members flexed their muscles by voting for a Bill to | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
protect people in Scotland from the ravages of UK-wide cuts to benefits. | :22:51. | :22:59. | |
Should benefits be different in Scotland? Well, Humza Yousaf, it is | :22:59. | :23:07. | |
interesting, as an SNP MSP, you look the polling, one of the things | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
that the coalition Government has planned legislating on which is | :23:13. | :23:19. | |
popular are the welfare reforms 74% agreed the Government pays too much | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
in benefits. That does not... the current welfare system working | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
in Scotland? No, the system across the United Kingdom, that is not | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
working. It is fundamentally flawed. To that extent I can have sympathy | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
with trying to change it. The problem is that the changes being | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
made are punishing the worst off. The disabled in our community. That | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
is not the way to go. In Scotland we tend to go a different path to | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
the United Kingdom in a number of different affairs. Education for | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
people in Scotland is free at University. South of the border | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
barriers are being erected. The NHS south of the bored ter is a two- | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
tier system. We are keeping it public. If we had control over we | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
have we -- welfare we would do things different. It would be more | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
simple it would make work pay and lift people out of poverty. That is | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
what you want if you control the powers here you can start from | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
scratch. You can have the benefit of hindsight, but I want it get to | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
the crux of the matter, the problem with welfare reforms and the | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
austerity that is coming from the UK Government, is that on the one | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
hand they are told they have no money, so they increase fees. Don't | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
have money so they increase prescription charges, they don't | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
have money so they have it make welfare reforms, but on the other | :24:40. | :24:48. | |
hand, they somehow manage to find �100 billion to re new Trident. | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
So where are you finding the money from? We are saying that in | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
Scotland we pay 9 .4% of tax money for a population of 8%. So we are | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
paying our way. There are ways to find money. The difference is in | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
Scotland we do it differently. Those that are best-placed to make | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
the decisions about Scotland are the Scottish people. They would | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
look for the interest. We don't need a UK Government that we did | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
not vote for telling us what, how we should live in our society. | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
We were having a conversation earlier, you said that there were a | :25:21. | :25:31. | |
lot of people in Scotland or on welfare in the country this should | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
not be? Do you believe of the idea of the deserving and undesever -- | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
undeserving? I am sure there are feckless people and worthy people | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
who are in deep trouble and need help. That is not the argument, the | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
money it is �21 billion for social support in Scotland, out of a | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
budget of �6 billion, we have to keep it capped -- �66 billion. I | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
want to bring it back to Scotland, the one thing to bring back is the | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
taxation that pays for that welfare. Holyrood is unacceptable, the | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
accountability of the MPs spending that money is not there. | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
The one in five Scottish homes that are workless, and families where | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
generations have never worked is this the way to affect cultural | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
change? Would be a wonderful change in Scotland. The SNP as they have | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
said, that we have had 60 years and not much has changed in Glasgow. I | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
remember when I was a boy here it was exactly the same. We still had | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
the same people who were on welfare, nobody worked in the families. The | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
welfare system has failed us.. The way we are doing it is wrong. We | :26:44. | :26:51. | |
have to solve that. APPLAUSE As a socialist and as a citizen, I | :26:51. | :26:56. | |
think that the welfare state is non-negotiable. The settlement | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
after the Second World War was that Britain protects the vulnerable, | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
that is why we had the welfare state and the NHS it exists to stop | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
people falling through the bottom of society. Now the economy, such | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
as it is... But people are falling through the bottom and have stayed | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
from generation to generation? Do you think people are taking the | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
micky on welfare? I'm sure there are, but far fewer than we suppose. | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
I think that the people taking the micky are the people running our | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
society, frankly, who have put people in this poverty. We have had | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
generations of people on welfare, it is because of the failure of | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
free market capitalism. The idea... The poor are poorer | :27:38. | :27:44. | |
because the rich are richer is nonsense. But that is what it looks | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
like. That is nonsense that the poor are poor because the rich are | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
rich. What you want to do is to have a social welfare system that | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
is redistributing. That is up to you if you have the tax you want | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
socialism. Others want a safety blanket at the bottom. Which in | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
1944 is what was invented. The Act let people not fall out of the | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
bottom, as you say. Somewhere between the two we need a | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
resolution. The point is that Scotland could have ideas on how to | :28:13. | :28:20. | |
do this. Personally, I would like to devolve welfare down, below | :28:20. | :28:27. | |
Holyrood, down to local councils and little community groups, into | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
mutuals. It is the mechanics society, the working men's society, | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
the way that welfare was organised people in communities looked after | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
their own it could be the chump, yourself, anyone. The women's | :28:40. | :28:48. | |
society ! That would help as opposed to the | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
working men's! I think it is clear from what people say that there is | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
something needed in the reform of welfare. We have heard people argue | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
for that. We have a process driven from Westminster. It has not been | :29:00. | :29:09. | |
applied in Scotland yet. It does not come into effect... Until April | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
of 2013. What the process reform has brought forward are the changes | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
that Humza Yousaf is asking for. I believe that Scotland has a great | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
deal to gain from the same process. We have all of the same problems, | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
but perhaps on a different scale. We have an element of fraud in the | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
system where people are claiming benefits they are not entitled to. | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
But more importantly, what we have to do is take the poor unfortunate | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
people who have been dumped by successive governments, own | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
benefits simply to get them out of the way back into work for the | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
benefit for the economy and for the benefit of the people themselves | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
who suffer all of the indignities of being unemployed. | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
That is difficult to disagree with, that of course we want to get | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
people back into work, but the strength of feeling in Scotland | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
about the welfare issue, the reforms is rare for the SNP and the | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
Labour Party to join forces. That alone goes to show just how | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
damaging these can be. To say that they don't come into effect next | :30:14. | :30:20. | |
year, technically they don't, but speaking to the organisations, the | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
groups,... Shelter Scotland support the reforms? All of them? Go to the | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
carers in society taking care of the vulnerable, they are saking in | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
their boots and want the Scottish Parliament to step up and do what | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
they can. I can't believe that indig nation that people are | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
defrauding the system. We have watched MPs defraud the system for | :30:42. | :30:51. | |
the longest time! Let's get a handle on that! Oh, woe betide | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
somebody defrauds the social system! We only have one MP in the | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
system, he is unimpeachable. Uncorruptable. Listen, Charles | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
Kennedy, we mention... Humza Yousaf make as good point. | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
Politicians with the surname of Kennedy have not got a good record | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
here. We are not talking about sex! Let's | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
address the issue of governments over the years having tried to do | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
something about this. It used to be called thinking the unthinkable | :31:21. | :31:28. | |
when Tony Blair came to power and put Frank Field into charge of this. | :31:28. | :31:34. | |
Can we reform it, if you do, can it be painless? No it cannot be | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
painless. I think that, when I started out nearly 30 years ago now | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
in Parliament, one of the issues that I was involved with as a young | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
MP at that point was the welfare state. | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
The health service and the benefits, so on. Everyone could see the | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
iceberg coming out of the mist which was that we were an ageing | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
society, that was going to accelerate, the demography of the | :32:00. | :32:06. | |
situation was what they used to call in that phrase "the inverted | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
pyramid" less taxpayers, smaller families and more to support. You | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
don't have to be a Nobel Prize winner to figure out there is a | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
problem here, Mission Control! I don't think that the problem would | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
be solved, myself, coming back to the question, by devolving more | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
here. I will give an example, pensions, how on earth are you | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
going to disentangle pensions and inheritance on a purely Scottish | :32:34. | :32:42. | |
basis from a UK tax-funded basis, which it has been through | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
generations. I don't think it can be done. | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
You have concerns about this? only speak for the whole of the UK. | :32:50. | :32:58. | |
I started Pat's Petition six months ago. The nature of the percentage | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
of fraud, that was one of the things that the government brought | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
out, to reform benefits for the disabled people because of the | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
fraud rate. That is 0.5%, the lowest rate of fraud next to old | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
age pensioners, but we don't talk about pensioners cheating the | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
system. Unless they are in the House of | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
Lords! I'm work ong that one! much less are you going to get, | :33:25. | :33:31. | |
Pat? What are the fears about the changes? They did talk about when | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
they first brought it in being a complex system. Then the recession | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
came, the bankers, I say broke the society. | :33:40. | :33:48. | |
That was Fred Good win, Alex Salmond's friend! It was a Labour | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
government... Carry on. Now we have a recession, we are | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
told there is no money. The Government has everything handed to | :33:54. | :34:02. | |
them on a plate. They keep cutting and cutting. What concerns us as a, | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
I'm a disabled person, what concerns us is the impact that the | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
social works, the benefits, the housing, the legal aid, the | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
Citizens Advice Bureau, everything falling on disabled people's | :34:15. | :34:22. | |
shoulders, the whole lot coming all in one go. We have looked for a | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
community impact assess model and how it will affect people across | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
the country. As a blind person how does it | :34:30. | :34:37. | |
affect you, you are a carer to? will have to go through | :34:37. | :34:44. | |
reassessment. I was judged registered blind in 1997, I did not | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
have to be reassessed. That was it. How stressful is the process of | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
reassessment? We are frightened. You are going to lose the | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
disability allowances that mean we can have a quality of life that | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
everybody in this audience will probably take for granted. Why do | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
you believe you will lose your benefit? Because they have | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
changed... As we heard from Humza Yousaf we don't don't have the | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
detail. We have the details. There has been | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
a run on the new assessment process. It has been done in Burnley and | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
Aberdeen. The information coming from that to those of us who are | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
politicians on the ground is that there has been fear and concern, | :35:31. | :35:40. | |
but in practise it has worked. How can you have an assessment done | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
by ATUS when it is a tick box. It does not take notice of the person, | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
the healthcare professional. There is no room on the box system for | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
personal information. There is one lady assessed. She did pottery. On | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
the interview she said that she managed pottering, there was | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
nothing on that assessment to take into account that individual | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
person's needs... So it is blunt and imprecise. | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
What is interesting about the discussion is we are talking about | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
the administration of the welfare system it goes back to the | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
nationalised method. It is not ever going to work because it is a far | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
too big. We have to move to other ways of organisation to make this | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
happen and break down the money. Get the money going to individual | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
people. For the Conservative MSP to suggest | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
it is not impact on Scotland demonstrates his ignorance of some | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
of the different legislation within Scotland. There are 32 local | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
authorities who are having to plan with regards to housing and | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
homelessness now. They are looking to chaos and bankruptcy, given the | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
homelessness responsibilities. It will be a complete nonsense for you | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
to say that. The system failing in Scotland is the system put in place | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
by previous governments over generations. The reforms taking | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
place would have been administered had it not been for the fact that | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
the Scottish Parliament rejected the opportunity to pass the powers | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
back to Westminster. Now we have to quickly create a process in | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
Scotland which is designed to paper over the cracks created by that | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
decision. It is happening now. | :37:26. | :37:36. | |
:37:36. | :37:36. | ||
If the result of this, Humza Yousaf, is a more generous, a less cut | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
benefit system in Scotland, would thereby the responsibility of | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
benefit tourism? People from other parts of the European Union coming | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
to Scotland as they will not go to England is that ridiculous? It is, | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
but the point is about the detail that the gentleman is making... | :37:55. | :38:03. | |
Hang on, why is that ridiculous? Hold on if you are a citizen of the | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
European Union and we are, and so is everything else in the European | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
Union then you have equal entitlement. | :38:14. | :38:24. | |
:38:24. | :38:28. | ||
All On Red -- ALL SPEAK AT ONCE People from Scotland don't go to | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
other parts of the European Union because they have better benefits. | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
That does not happen, but the point is, the point that the gentleman | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
was making which was correct, you have a UK Government that I sass | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
they can't so shave -- to shave off �2 50 million from the disability | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
welfare, you don't give the detail, it is natural that people assume | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
the worst. If you know there are cuts coming your way, you will suem | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
the worst and put in place the structures for that. You cannot | :38:59. | :39:05. | |
hold that against people. Kitty? The welfare reforms are not | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
just about disability benefit, but a raft of other things. The idea of | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
a universal benefit which is coming along. That is surely a good one. | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
For all there are people that defraud the system, there are those | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
who don't collect the benefit as they don't understand the system. I | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
think it would be detrimental. We have a fluid society in the UK. My | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
children live half in Scotland, half in England. If we start | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
separating it out, the idea was, sorry, to simplify, to have a | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
universal benefit. I can't see how a simplified benefit system | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
throughout the whole of the UK would be bad for people. At least | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
they could understand it and if you did not like it, you could complain. | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
At the moment it is so complicated. The highest rate of disability | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
allowance for a person is about �70 a week, the DLA care package. An | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
MSP is paid more than that to stay in a hotel in Edinburgh! APPLAUSE | :40:12. | :40:19. | |
We are going to leave it there. Ed I will come to you in the last | :40:19. | :40:29. | |
:40:29. | :40:30. | ||
debate. He knows the Royal family b. | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
-- very well. If you have views about that debate | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
just log on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and follow the links to | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
where you can continue the discussion online. It all began | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
back in March when the Queen and Prince Phillip visited Leicester, | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
Britain's most multi-cultural city. By the end of July, the 86-year-old | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
Queen and the 91-year-old Duke will have traversed the length and | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
breadth of her kingdom on her Diamond Jubilee tour. And today | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
they'll all be floating down the Thames on barges, probably in the | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
rain. Is the Jubilee showing Britain at its best? Now, Katie | :41:00. | :41:07. | |
Grant has presided over a remarkable er a... Me? You have, | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
you are a remarkable woman, you don't look your age at all! No, the | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
Queen, she has almost become a cultural icon? Yes, she has. What | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
is important about the Jubilee is people looking outside what they | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
see about us from the outside. I think it is a great thing that they | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
do see the best of British. The Pageant tri which is great. The | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
street parties, people getting together -- Pageantry. The | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
wonderful people in the Mall there twor two or three days. I think | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
that when people look at Britain they see a sense of joy. How can | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
that be bad? There is a chance for everyone to get together. Does she | :41:49. | :41:56. | |
preside over a union ified, multi- cultural kingdom? She does, not | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
always unified. But she is a constant? The Jubilee | :42:01. | :42:07. | |
givers us a chance to argue. We can all argue. We have free speech in | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
the country. People can argue about whether she is a good thing or bad | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
thing. I think that the monarchy is a good thing it is nice it is | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
something that we do well. Charles Kennedy, even a rabid lefty | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
like yourself is not going to argue against this? I will answer to | :42:24. | :42:34. | |
:42:34. | :42:35. | ||
being a Jacobite! No, I think, I agree. I think it is a plus. | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
I really do. The thing that strikes me, you know, | :42:41. | :42:48. | |
I'm not somebody who is terribly in favour of the hereditary principle | :42:48. | :42:56. | |
or that, but when the Honours comes around and it is the lollipop lady, | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
the unsung heroes and the pleasure that gives to so many people at a | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
local level, this are never going to be on national television, their | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
name up in lights, irthink that is... The Queen herself over 60 | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
years, do you think she has done a remarkable job? I think she has. | :43:18. | :43:26. | |
Can you think of anyone from Prime Ministers to Archbishops, anyone | :43:26. | :43:34. | |
who has held such a prominent, global position public ally for 60 | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
years. She has hardly put a foot wrong. | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
When the historians write, sad to say, one day, the reflections on | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
this era, I think it will go down as a remarkable plus story. | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
APPLAUSE You two! What on earth are you | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
going to say! I think that she comes from a great immigrant family | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
that came to this country and that is with great respect she has done | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
well in that. I think it is wonderful we have the Greeks, the | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
Germans, ul of them there, that is unification. I reckon in Glasgow, | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
as I came here this morning, the swathes of bunting and Union Jacks | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
missed me because the orange walk is not out today. So I never saw | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
that but I'm not against, I'm not against the retrospective, I | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
tonight think we should start hunting them down, the way we do | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
MPs that screw with our taxes. On this day OK, there is old women | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
who haved with drug addicts and prostitutes and helped women come | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
off drugs and done this for many years. That is a great job. Being | :44:45. | :44:51. | |
born into a job where you wear a nice frock, occasionally open a | :44:51. | :44:57. | |
Teflon fact tri, I'm sure that is hard. My wee granny worked in a | :44:57. | :45:07. | |
:45:07. | :45:10. | ||
fish factory, that was a hard job. APPLAUSE On this day of days! Katie | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
Grant? It is, I know a joke. I know you are a stand-up comedian. And a | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
writer! You would not do it to anybody else, I have to say. | :45:20. | :45:27. | |
would! Your granny did a wonderful job. The Queen does a good job. | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
They don't do the same job. They don't, my granny had to apply for | :45:33. | :45:42. | |
her job, you are absolutely right. We can be tolerant and diverse, she | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
is everything from Brenda to Her Majesty. It is fantastic that we | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
have that institution, you can have a bev y for her or put the ermine | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
on it is a different thing. Alan I don't imagine you have | :45:58. | :46:07. | |
bunting up at your place? I may go to a barbeque. People are getting | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
together in their communities, this is good. We don't do enough of that | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
in our society. I just don't think that we need the Queen to do it. We | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
were talking about the benefit system, we are paying hundreds of | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
millions of taxpayers' money in a recession to celebrate the fact... | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
It is costing very little. You say that, but when there is a national | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
strike called, the Government are the first to say how much is this | :46:32. | :46:38. | |
harming the economy. Here we are having a Jubilee weekend where we | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
all take the time off, no-one is saying anything about that | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
Do you hold her in affection? have nothing against her. By I | :46:48. | :46:55. | |
don't agree with inherited wealth. In a modern demo accuratic | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
prefer President Boris Johnson? because of the word "President" | :46:59. | :47:06. | |
ahead of it, ewould have a say in the choosing of the state. You say | :47:06. | :47:15. | |
is the Jubilee showing Britain at its best? No it is showing Britain | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
as uneven, or the BBC light in the unfawning coverage. | :47:20. | :47:28. | |
What, right now? The BBC right now have an oasis... I am talking about | :47:28. | :47:32. | |
across the four days. The coverage of this is unbelievable. I escaped | :47:32. | :47:38. | |
to Scotland to get away from it. She has been on the thrown for 60 | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
years. Because nobody got a chance to | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
elect her in or out. If you want her on the thrown for 60 years, | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
then vote for her. Surely when we spent part of the | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
programme earlier, discussing the Head of State in Syria, you must | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
realise that we get good value for money. | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
That is a good example, Bashar al- Assad! Alex Salmond has been | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
converted. In an independent Scotland he wants to keep her as | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
the Head of State. So let's have a photo with the | :48:12. | :48:20. | |
Queen and Bashar al-Assad. You said pageantry, you also mentioned north | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
Korean death camps. The idea that we should base our constitution and | :48:25. | :48:34. | |
political system on the base of praj tri and tourism is absurd. | :48:34. | :48:40. | |
-- pageantry. Let's celebrate democracy and not | :48:40. | :48:50. | |
inherited privileges! We do. Did you give the Queen no credit | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
for anything? Of course I do. It is interesting you make it | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
personal about the Queen. This is her day? Let's have this | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
discussion when Charles is the king. I find it interesting that | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
monarchists say that they support the traditions, but when the polls | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
show that the people want the tradition to continue, they want | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
William to continue it. Why is Glasgow not, sorry I know you are | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
into this, I don't want to steal your moment, because it is a | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
cracking hobby! But why is Glasgow not celebrating the Jubilee as | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
much? And nobody talks about it. The problem is in Glasgow we have | :49:26. | :49:33. | |
the problem of sectarianism with the Union flag... It has different | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
baggage? If you have Union flags hanging out of the window, people | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
don't think that man really likes the Queen, you are thinking oh, the | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
orange walk is coming soon. That is the problem. We should have had the | :49:47. | :49:55. | |
royal standard as a flag if you wanted to portray it, it has no BNP | :49:55. | :50:02. | |
or connotations behind it. E d, let's personallise it, this is | :50:02. | :50:11. | |
her day, a word on ent Queen? know -- a word on the? I her as a | :50:11. | :50:17. | |
person. Not from the TV footage and so on. She is very down to earth, | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
she is committed to the job she is doing. Which other country in the | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
world can have a Head of State that's been in place for 60 years | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
and given steady, good counsel all of that time, regardless of whether | :50:30. | :50:37. | |
you are aist or not. I mean, unless you go to some of the dir takeships, | :50:37. | :50:44. | |
like... Like France, Germany, the United States? If you go to that | :50:44. | :50:52. | |
situation with a President, or Johnston or whatever, they are re- | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
elected every eight years. So, she rises above it? She a | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
apolitical above everyone and she is a steady influence in the | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
country, regardless of whether it is England and Wales, Scotland or | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
Ireland. She is the Queen of Britain. | :51:10. | :51:18. | |
Prince Philip by her side today? is a wit. Very much so. | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
APPLAUSE Has he got a wicked sense of | :51:20. | :51:28. | |
humour? Absolutely. I will give him an open spot on a | :51:29. | :51:36. | |
comedy gag! See how he does. No, I suppose because I live in | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
Crathie I happen to be in a position to meet the retrospective, | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
she will stop and speak to you if you are out on the golf course, | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
they all do. They are just like good neighbours. | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
That is the way they have always been. | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
You were nodding all the way through that so you think she has | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
done a wonderful job and this is a great cause for celebration? I do | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
think it is a great cause for celebration. There are not many | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
countries have the monarchy, the Queen. They are talking about the | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
tax and the money that has been spent, but they also bring a lot of | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
money into the country, tourism.That Is a point I would | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
like to make. On one of the News Channels on Friday night, they said | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
that the cost of this Jubilee celebrations in London, the Thames | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
Pageant today has been paid for by private donations. All of the rest | :52:37. | :52:44. | |
of the celebrations a -- amounts to �3 million. The comment made by the | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
commentator, the income generated is priceless. | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
That is lovely that she knows a lot of private donations it was | :52:54. | :53:00. | |
provided for by private donations, she knows such rich people. We have | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
one in four children in Scotland living in poverty, maybe private | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
donations would help them as Westminster. | :53:08. | :53:15. | |
We should go back to the origin of Jubilee, that was to free debts, | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
free slaves and give back the land to people that owned. To reflect on | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
what we did well and to put up our hands to say this is what we have | :53:24. | :53:31. | |
to do better. That, I wish we would Well, you said yourself that the | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
Queen is good value for money, there was a figure that was said | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
that there is like 66 pence mer per day, per person, but that is not | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
true if you add on the security and the grants and unpaid tax it comes | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
up to about �150 million a year. Now, if we were to have elected | :53:50. | :53:57. | |
President like the one in Ireland that would cost 5% of that, 95% of | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
that �150 million could be better spent. I think. | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
In reference to the question in terms of how it presents Britain at | :54:05. | :54:12. | |
its best, because we live in such a richly diverse and multiculture | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
nation that is Britain it would be good to join into the celebrations | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
that mark the cause of say the festivals such as for example | :54:21. | :54:27. | |
marking the cause of the months's long fast at the end which is Eid | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
and so on. But people do that, don't they? | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
they do, but to make more of a hype about it | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
You have been looking Grumpy! is not about the cost. I don't care | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
about the cost. He sounds like George Bush now! | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
is not about the cost. The cost is a red herring. The issue is the | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
symbolism. We live in a deeply unequal society. When you celebrate | :54:55. | :55:01. | |
the monarchy, you are celebrating inequality. A group of people | :55:01. | :55:07. | |
allowed to rule over us. Does she not rule over the waves? | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
As Head of State, as head of the Church of England, et cetera, we | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
are privilegeing small family of people who were not elected, who | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
are there simply by accident of birth. I don't think that is a good | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
thing to teach our children. That is a respectable republican | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
argument to put forward, but the question now simply to pose is | :55:28. | :55:35. | |
this: We are seeing wauf-to- wall coverage of the Jubilee as we are | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
of the Olympic torch, where are the mass protests saying down with the | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
Queen. They are here in the studio! Does | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
that not tell you something? Just because my argument is not popular, | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
does not make it wrong! If arcy is so popular, vote them N | :55:56. | :56:02. | |
Most people support it I like Katie's piece when she said | :56:02. | :56:08. | |
that the whole world has eyes on Britain, but I'm sorry, people in | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
Spain and Greece are not watching this coverage! They are watching it | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
in Australia! I was in America at the time of the Royal Wedding. I | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
was flicking through the television station, they were obsessed with it. | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
Is that the Britain, I know you are not keen on the concept of Britain | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
perse, but is that the country that you want the world to see? I wanted | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
to touch on that. We have to accept that Britain has been and is a four | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
different nation states and what makes people tick in Scotland does | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
not make people in other parts of the United Kingdom tick. The poll | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
that came out showed in England 75% of people in England were inspired | :56:47. | :56:54. | |
by the Queen, by their identity. That figure was only 40%, Robert | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
Burns was 85% about what makes you feel inspired to be Scottish. So | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
different things... Salmond is going to maintain the monarchy of | :57:05. | :57:13. | |
Scotland when he wants to have an independent nation, he wants the | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
Queen to stay. What is that saying? I think when a | :57:18. | :57:25. | |
country is ready to move fron the monarchy, -- move on from the | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
monarchy, taking Jamaica, this year, 50 years, they said OK, that the | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
people of Jamaica are ready to be independent. | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
If you are ready to be independent it is a different system? You are | :57:37. | :57:43. | |
looking uncomfortable now? I am not bothered about the face on coins, | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
the stamps, this is not about flags, anthems but the power to control | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
here in the best interests of Scottish people. There is a poll | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
that says that Scots respected Billy Connolly more than the Queen. | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
That was a recent poll. I think that a lot of people it is a | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
generational thing now. The older generation, and total respect... | :58:03. | :58:13. | |
:58:13. | :58:17. | ||
There you go, King Billy!? He has a different religion! Charles | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
Kennedy? We have in the course of the programme talked about two | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
issues, another country and a domestic, a huge issue facing us, | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
welfare. To both extents, the situation is broken, how can you | :58:31. | :58:37. | |
fix it, make it better? Sometimes in life it is worth saying if it | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
ain't broke, don't fix it. Thank you very That's it for this | :58:40. | :58:42. |