Episode 19 The Big Questions


Episode 19

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Good morning and welcome to The Big Questions, live from Hutchesons'

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Grammar School in Glasgow. I'm Nicky Campbell. This weekend Syria

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stands on the brink of a catastrophic civil war which would

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kill hundreds of thousands of people in sectarian strife. Our

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first Big Question: Is it immoral not to intervene in Syria? Ausama

:00:42.:00:44.

Monajed, from the Syrian National Council, says the world can no

:00:44.:00:47.

longer stand by and watch more children being slaughtered as they

:00:47.:00:51.

were at Houla. The coalition government say, "We're all in this

:00:51.:00:54.

together" but their reforms to the benefits system are hitting some

:00:54.:00:58.

families harder than others. Here in Scotland politicians are looking

:00:58.:01:01.

for a way to protect their constituents from the worst of the

:01:01.:01:05.

Westminster-imposed cuts. Our next Big Question: Should benefits be

:01:05.:01:09.

different in Scotland? The Scottish National Party MSP, Humza Yousaf,

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says it's wrong that Scots should suffer from reforms they did not

:01:12.:01:17.

support at the ballot box. Will your street be hanging out the

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bunting and toasting Her Majesty's health this afternoon? Or are you

:01:22.:01:25.

planning an escape from the Jubilee jamboree? Our last Big Question: Is

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the Jubilee showing Britain at its best? Charles Kennedy is here to

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lead the Royal tributes. And comedian Janey Godley defends the

:01:32.:01:42.
:01:42.:01:44.

party poopers. Welcome everyone to The Big Questions. APPLAUSE

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With Kofi Annan's peace plan for Syria in tatters, Britain, France

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and the United States of America have all stood on the sidelines,

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wrung their hands and agreed "something must be done" but not

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without the backing of the United Nations, which everyone knows that

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Russia and China will veto. Around 10,000 people have already died in

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the conflict since March last year. Is it immoral not to intervene in

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Syria? From the Syrian National Council, Ausama Monajed, what

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should the world do? I think that intervention is inevitable. It is

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immoral not intervene. We cannot watch the Syrians being slaughtered

:02:31.:02:36.

on our TV screens. This law intensity conflict can drag on for

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years, given that the regime is in full control of the intelligence,

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the army, of the public and the posts and the opposition can no

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longer go back home and surround to oppression and dictatorship.

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Will there be more deaths as a result of intervention? Some argue

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that the ultimate effect would be more death and destruction? Without

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intervention, there will be a more chaotic situation and more deaths,

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of course. We can stop Civil War by intervening now and stop these

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cronies from destroying the country and killing as many Syrians as they

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wish to stay in power and maintain their grip on power.

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APPLAUSE Charles Kennedy, we remember, of

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course, Rwanda and the dereliction of duty there, we remember Bosnia

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with the UN peacekeepers with their hands tied as the slaughter went on.

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We did intervene in Kosovo to save lives, partly as a result of

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abdication of moral responsibility as some saw in Bosnia, surely this

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is the example to save civilian lives, where we have to do

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something? It is. It sounds dreadful to say this, there is no-

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one watching the programme, with not 110% sympathy to the points

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that are being made, but without the sanctions of the United Nations

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you cannot pick and choose. I was the Lib Dem ladder during Iraq. We

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took a stand, people agreed or disagreed with it, but you need the

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sanctions from the United Nations. You mention, Russia, China, but

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also the United States. President Obama is not going to do something

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pre-emptive, or something expeditionary, shall we say.

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Is that because it is a difficult time in the cycle? Precisely.

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Without the leader of the United States, in terms of personal and

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hardware, you will not be able to achieve anything.

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What about civilian enclaves? I mean children are being slaughtered.

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It is aing, but we cannot be selective. You cannot make a moral

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case, to come back to the question, you cannot make a moral case for

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saying we can ignore or flout international legallities when it

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suits us. There was no UN security resolution

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in 1998. We have now a coalition D- that was a touchy point to do with

:05:25.:05:35.
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the Russians. We have to define I legally? If you cannot carry the

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United States, Russia and China... The question we have to ask

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ourselves is that why are we in the West putting sons and daughters at

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risk? Where are the Arab countries? Those countries have trillions of

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dollars of wealth, yet are silent, that is what is immoral.

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So they should be doing something? Reverend Sally Foster-Fulton, we

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have a situation that here one side is, of course, the Government, they

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are armed by Russia, they have Migs, they have surface-to-air missiles,

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entire towns in Russia are dependant on the arms trade to

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Syria, so Putin is not going to change his mind, is he? You have

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hit the nail on the head. This is a complex, deep issue. Of course we

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have a moral obligation to intervene anywhere where our

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brothers and sisterss in this global community, where people

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struggle and live on fear. But, the big question that we

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really have to grapple with is what is the best way forward? Now,

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historically, humanity has gone, any time there is violence we have

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met violence with more violence. Look at where that has led us. At

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least we could limit the damage, it would get too dark, the arms would

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be too tired to hold the sword, now, with a push of a button, without

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seeing the people we are harming we can anigh late them. We have to

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think hard about the stance, the world we live in, should violence

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be met with violence. What do you mean by intervention?

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How do you save the lives? definition is key. There is no

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point asking a question, saying is it immoral not to intervene? I

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could say is it immoral not to drop bombs on women and in order to

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protect other women and children? In wars people die. With this type

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of intervention we can still hurt people. This is not a choice of

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bombs and bullets on the one hand. Ausama Monajed says, with every

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sympathy, no-one here does not have that, but we cannot sit back.

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Watching this on our screens, but if we are dropping bombs we are

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still watching with arms followeded. We could be intensifying a conflict,

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adding to the death toll. Going to Libya with where we have moved on,

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there are now 250 different militias. We have moved on. We

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cannot go into Middle East countries, arming a bunch of people

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we know little about. So this is the lesser of several

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evils? My level of several evils is diplomacy.

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Will diplomaty work? There is no diplomat kal solution for. This

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there a military solution? It is to stop... This is a point. They are

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prepared to kill millions of Syrians. It is not right to compare

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two sides. You are stopping aggressors from aggressor -- from

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aggression. I don't want my taxpayer money to

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go to the Free Syrian Army to go into another village to kill people.

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What the Free Syrian Army is doing is protecting civilians.

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From launching attacks on civilians, from snipers killing children and.

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More than 15,000 women and children have been killed. We have more than

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1,of00 cases of rape. The a-- 1,6 hundreds cases of rape. The regime

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will carry on. They are prepared to kill as many as they can in their

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power. Russia and China are influential. It is like Egypt back

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in the day for Russia. So strategic. Any victory, and Russia would

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consider the collapse of the Syrian regime as a victory for the West.

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That is the key way that Russia is objecting. Intervention has

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different forms in different ways, Turkey was prepared to take the

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lead, but the United States thought it was not the right time, probably

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because of the election cycle. Speaking as an ex-military

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officer... What is the ethical position? I think, my view is that

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we have now got to the point where doing nothing is not an option.

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We cannot really just stand by and watch the awful things that we have

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seen over the past few weeks happening in Syria. There are huge

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practical problems, of course there are. As Charles Kennedy has pointed

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out, without the UN resolution it becomes very difficult. Without US

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participation it is difficult they have the essential resources

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required to do that. The USA is shifting its military focus to the

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Pacific, but I do think that there come as point where you have to say

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enough is enough and intervene. It is never easy.

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How does that manifest itself? have to protect the innocents. That

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is the moral function of military forces.

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So by that we kill more people? may not have to kill people. The

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primary aim is to protect those who cannot protect themselves. To

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protect the weak from the strong. If... That sounds like a noble

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purpose, but how do we do that? We have to put in ground troops?

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To separate the warring factions. When did we become the equaliser of

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the world. Who are we to keep going in sorting out everyone's fights. I

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am appalled by the deaths in Syria, but we don't have a history of

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working this out right. We are in the middle of two other conflicts

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we have not finished, so I don't think we are good equalisers at

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this. So turn our backs on it? There must

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be another way. I would say intervention is not the

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answer. It would only exacerbate the situation. Look at Afghanistan,

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Iraq, and also Libya. NATO intervened there. 30,000 more

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civilians lives' were killed once NATO had intervened. Also it just

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adds fuel to the fire. APPLAUSE

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I think there is hypocrisy here. In Libya, the politicians came in,

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this is a moral case, we are stopping a slaughter, a massacre

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happening. What is the difference with Syria? Why not intervene in

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Syria? We don't have the reserves. That is it. George Osbourne said

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after Libya, let's get the oil contracts for the oil companies!

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The Syrian regime have a different level of weaponry, superyore to

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Colonel Gaddafi. -- suepeer yore.

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There are lots of Syrian opposition groups, you accept? There are lots

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of jihadists? That is overstated. We see the narratives being created

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in the West as an excuse not to intervene.

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Is that what what it is, propaganda? We have seen what

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happens when you go into a foreign country with Western troops and

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think that you can take sides. should not ply what happened in

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Iraq. You would like the Libyan model in

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Syria? Libya threatened Europe's national security, it had the

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energy reserves. I think that the gentleman had a

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good point about hypocrisy. One of the reasons we are not discussing

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this is that Syria are not Western allies. Nobody called for

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intervention against irbl when they are slaughtering Palestinians. --

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Israel when they are slaughtering Palestinians.

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Is there hypocrisy, a double standard? The whole of foreign

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policy and diplomacy, who said we don't have permanent friends, we

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just have permanent interests? There is a way that the world works,

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but another practical point, as Stuart was saying, I have sympathy

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with the point he is making, but as he knows better than me being ex-

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military, now without the sanction of a United Nations resolution, the

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military planners in this country or any other country, they have to

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decide if we are going to bomb there or there, they themselves

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could end up in the international court in the Hague, guilty of war

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crimes if they don't have the legality behind them.

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Illegal wars? Exactly. Tony Blair is still being hounded as he was at

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the Leveson Inquiry over accusations he was a war criminal

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because he launched an illegal war. If we go beyond the moral aspects,

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I believe there is a talk for intervening, but the practical

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aspects, Britain cannot do it on their own.

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We are already intervening, you are talking about a point of morality.

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It surely must be immoral to be putting in weapons and arms into an

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unsafe conflict zone. Our memories are sho so short we have forgotten

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what happened with the Mujahideen, we trained them up, now they are

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kicking our backsides, now our sons and daughters are put in danger in

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Afghanistan. But the nat is isolation? It does

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not need to be a Western intervention. The intervening

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forces would leave with the weapons, and not have the weapons left in

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the country. So the forces go in and do what?

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Destroy the capabilities of the Bashar al-Assad regime launching

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attacks and coordinating military campaigns against civilians.

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That sounds easy And creating a safe zone for military defectors to

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go to. Then what? There is the assumption

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that intervention stops things, that we will say we are coming and

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everything will stop. This will not happen. All that we will be aed of

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is colonisation, going in doing what we do not understand. The

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Islamic world, Dubai will then unite against us and divide monks

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itself. This is more complicated than justing there is a moral case

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there. Is a moral case for the Syrian government to stop what they

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are doing, for the rebels to try other solutions. There are all

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sorts of moralcations to be made, but the moral case for intervention

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is not clear. It would not stop the thing as people assume that it

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might. If you lived in Houla and were a

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villager there, and your children, wife had been slaughtered, had

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their throats cut, what would you want the world to do? I would want

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the world to stop Bashar al-Assad from killing my people, but what is

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the best way to do that? Is sending in bombers better? If I were a

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villager in an Alawite village bombed by the West in response,

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what is the best way? With all respect, that is a simple approach.

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There is a side that says you drop bombs and then the world is a

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better place Military operations can comprise of a spectrum from

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basic peacekeeping to what you are talking about, general war and

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armed conflict. I think that the primary purpose for military

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intervention would be to stop the fighting. Secondly to separate the

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warring factions and to protect those who cannot protect themselves,

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and then to allow the Syrian people to sort out politically by debate

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what to do in the future. But the SNC is a big opposition

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group but it does not represent all Syrians.

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How to appease the Russians? They have a Naval Base, a listening post.

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Which is very important to them. They have a weapons contract to the

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order of �2.5 billion. That is a big diplomatic problem.

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A huge political problem for Putin. Huge. We are getting on our high

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horses about the Russians. Let's talk about morality, let's talk

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about consistency. You do what you can do. We have the

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situation for, example, of North Korea. The atrocities there are

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unspeakable. China... Human rights in China?

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cannot do anything? Can we? We can't cross the street and save

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our brothers and sisters and their children there, we can't. Is this

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not a situation where we can't do anything? When was the last time

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that a current affairs programme like this, for example or Newsnight,

:19:59.:20:08.

whatever it may be, the Andrew Marr Show discuss the situations in

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Zimbabwe? Yet, wheel back, it was all over the place, terrible things

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were happening, I guess that they still are.

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The best way forward is to back the peace plan the UN and Kofi Annan,

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shaky as it is, we have to support it. The only way there will be

:20:26.:20:29.

lasting peace is to get those involved in it around the table to

:20:30.:20:34.

come up with their own answer. If we go in as the military, it is

:20:34.:20:40.

like putting a cap on a spring that will pop back with a vengians. We

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have to let them handle it themselves. As painful as it is.

:20:45.:20:51.

So what is feasible? But that is a failure. The regime would stop its

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atrocities against people, they would pull troops from outside of

:20:54.:21:00.

the cities and villagers, point two is to release the political

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prisoners, 2,012 have been arrested. We have to demonstrate freely in

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the streets, this none of this has happened. That was supposed to

:21:13.:21:16.

happen. Then to enter the negotiations of the regime and the

:21:17.:21:21.

regime does not want to negotiate, so the Kofi Annan plan is not

:21:21.:21:26.

working as the regime does not want it to.

:21:26.:21:34.

Ausama Monajed, will... They have issued statements... Ausama Monajed

:21:34.:21:41.

will Bashar al-Assad end up in the dock? There have been different

:21:41.:21:45.

options offered. How will end up? Similar to Colonel

:21:45.:21:48.

Gaddafi's regime. We have to leave it there.

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If you'd like to have your say about that debate, log on to

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bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, where you'll find links to where you can

:21:54.:21:56.

continue the discussion online. We're also debating live this

:21:56.:21:59.

morning from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow. "Should benefits

:21:59.:22:02.

be different in Scotland?" And, Is the Jubilee showing Britain at its

:22:02.:22:06.

best? Tell us what you think about those topics, or send us any

:22:06.:22:14.

general comments you'd like to make about the programme. At the last

:22:15.:22:17.

General Election, Scotland sent 41 Labour MPs to Westminster and 6

:22:17.:22:22.

Scottish Nationalists, versus just 11 Lib Dems and one Tory. So it's

:22:22.:22:25.

not surprising that Scots find many of the policies of the coalition

:22:25.:22:27.

government hard to stomach, especially the reform of the

:22:27.:22:32.

welfare system. But the Scottish Parliament can only huff and puff

:22:32.:22:35.

about its dissent unless, or until, they vote for independence or are

:22:35.:22:43.

given more financial freedoms under devolution. Last week the Labour

:22:43.:22:46.

and the SNP members flexed their muscles by voting for a Bill to

:22:46.:22:51.

protect people in Scotland from the ravages of UK-wide cuts to benefits.

:22:51.:22:59.

Should benefits be different in Scotland? Well, Humza Yousaf, it is

:22:59.:23:07.

interesting, as an SNP MSP, you look the polling, one of the things

:23:07.:23:13.

that the coalition Government has planned legislating on which is

:23:13.:23:19.

popular are the welfare reforms 74% agreed the Government pays too much

:23:19.:23:22.

in benefits. That does not... the current welfare system working

:23:22.:23:27.

in Scotland? No, the system across the United Kingdom, that is not

:23:27.:23:32.

working. It is fundamentally flawed. To that extent I can have sympathy

:23:32.:23:36.

with trying to change it. The problem is that the changes being

:23:36.:23:40.

made are punishing the worst off. The disabled in our community. That

:23:40.:23:44.

is not the way to go. In Scotland we tend to go a different path to

:23:44.:23:47.

the United Kingdom in a number of different affairs. Education for

:23:47.:23:51.

people in Scotland is free at University. South of the border

:23:51.:23:57.

barriers are being erected. The NHS south of the bored ter is a two-

:23:57.:24:03.

tier system. We are keeping it public. If we had control over we

:24:03.:24:09.

have we -- welfare we would do things different. It would be more

:24:09.:24:12.

simple it would make work pay and lift people out of poverty. That is

:24:13.:24:16.

what you want if you control the powers here you can start from

:24:16.:24:20.

scratch. You can have the benefit of hindsight, but I want it get to

:24:20.:24:24.

the crux of the matter, the problem with welfare reforms and the

:24:24.:24:28.

austerity that is coming from the UK Government, is that on the one

:24:28.:24:32.

hand they are told they have no money, so they increase fees. Don't

:24:32.:24:36.

have money so they increase prescription charges, they don't

:24:36.:24:40.

have money so they have it make welfare reforms, but on the other

:24:40.:24:48.

hand, they somehow manage to find �100 billion to re new Trident.

:24:48.:24:52.

So where are you finding the money from? We are saying that in

:24:52.:24:57.

Scotland we pay 9 .4% of tax money for a population of 8%. So we are

:24:57.:25:01.

paying our way. There are ways to find money. The difference is in

:25:01.:25:04.

Scotland we do it differently. Those that are best-placed to make

:25:04.:25:07.

the decisions about Scotland are the Scottish people. They would

:25:07.:25:11.

look for the interest. We don't need a UK Government that we did

:25:11.:25:17.

not vote for telling us what, how we should live in our society.

:25:17.:25:21.

We were having a conversation earlier, you said that there were a

:25:21.:25:31.

lot of people in Scotland or on welfare in the country this should

:25:31.:25:37.

not be? Do you believe of the idea of the deserving and undesever --

:25:37.:25:42.

undeserving? I am sure there are feckless people and worthy people

:25:42.:25:48.

who are in deep trouble and need help. That is not the argument, the

:25:48.:25:53.

money it is �21 billion for social support in Scotland, out of a

:25:53.:25:59.

budget of �6 billion, we have to keep it capped -- �66 billion. I

:25:59.:26:03.

want to bring it back to Scotland, the one thing to bring back is the

:26:04.:26:08.

taxation that pays for that welfare. Holyrood is unacceptable, the

:26:08.:26:13.

accountability of the MPs spending that money is not there.

:26:13.:26:17.

The one in five Scottish homes that are workless, and families where

:26:17.:26:21.

generations have never worked is this the way to affect cultural

:26:21.:26:26.

change? Would be a wonderful change in Scotland. The SNP as they have

:26:26.:26:31.

said, that we have had 60 years and not much has changed in Glasgow. I

:26:31.:26:35.

remember when I was a boy here it was exactly the same. We still had

:26:35.:26:39.

the same people who were on welfare, nobody worked in the families. The

:26:39.:26:44.

welfare system has failed us.. The way we are doing it is wrong. We

:26:44.:26:51.

have to solve that. APPLAUSE As a socialist and as a citizen, I

:26:51.:26:56.

think that the welfare state is non-negotiable. The settlement

:26:56.:26:59.

after the Second World War was that Britain protects the vulnerable,

:26:59.:27:04.

that is why we had the welfare state and the NHS it exists to stop

:27:04.:27:07.

people falling through the bottom of society. Now the economy, such

:27:07.:27:12.

as it is... But people are falling through the bottom and have stayed

:27:12.:27:16.

from generation to generation? Do you think people are taking the

:27:16.:27:21.

micky on welfare? I'm sure there are, but far fewer than we suppose.

:27:21.:27:25.

I think that the people taking the micky are the people running our

:27:25.:27:29.

society, frankly, who have put people in this poverty. We have had

:27:29.:27:33.

generations of people on welfare, it is because of the failure of

:27:33.:27:38.

free market capitalism. The idea... The poor are poorer

:27:38.:27:44.

because the rich are richer is nonsense. But that is what it looks

:27:44.:27:48.

like. That is nonsense that the poor are poor because the rich are

:27:48.:27:52.

rich. What you want to do is to have a social welfare system that

:27:52.:27:57.

is redistributing. That is up to you if you have the tax you want

:27:57.:28:01.

socialism. Others want a safety blanket at the bottom. Which in

:28:01.:28:07.

1944 is what was invented. The Act let people not fall out of the

:28:07.:28:10.

bottom, as you say. Somewhere between the two we need a

:28:10.:28:13.

resolution. The point is that Scotland could have ideas on how to

:28:13.:28:20.

do this. Personally, I would like to devolve welfare down, below

:28:20.:28:27.

Holyrood, down to local councils and little community groups, into

:28:27.:28:32.

mutuals. It is the mechanics society, the working men's society,

:28:32.:28:35.

the way that welfare was organised people in communities looked after

:28:35.:28:40.

their own it could be the chump, yourself, anyone. The women's

:28:40.:28:48.

society ! That would help as opposed to the

:28:48.:28:52.

working men's! I think it is clear from what people say that there is

:28:52.:28:56.

something needed in the reform of welfare. We have heard people argue

:28:56.:29:00.

for that. We have a process driven from Westminster. It has not been

:29:00.:29:09.

applied in Scotland yet. It does not come into effect... Until April

:29:09.:29:13.

of 2013. What the process reform has brought forward are the changes

:29:13.:29:18.

that Humza Yousaf is asking for. I believe that Scotland has a great

:29:18.:29:22.

deal to gain from the same process. We have all of the same problems,

:29:22.:29:27.

but perhaps on a different scale. We have an element of fraud in the

:29:27.:29:31.

system where people are claiming benefits they are not entitled to.

:29:31.:29:35.

But more importantly, what we have to do is take the poor unfortunate

:29:35.:29:40.

people who have been dumped by successive governments, own

:29:40.:29:44.

benefits simply to get them out of the way back into work for the

:29:44.:29:47.

benefit for the economy and for the benefit of the people themselves

:29:47.:29:52.

who suffer all of the indignities of being unemployed.

:29:52.:29:55.

That is difficult to disagree with, that of course we want to get

:29:55.:29:58.

people back into work, but the strength of feeling in Scotland

:29:59.:30:04.

about the welfare issue, the reforms is rare for the SNP and the

:30:04.:30:08.

Labour Party to join forces. That alone goes to show just how

:30:08.:30:14.

damaging these can be. To say that they don't come into effect next

:30:14.:30:20.

year, technically they don't, but speaking to the organisations, the

:30:20.:30:26.

groups,... Shelter Scotland support the reforms? All of them? Go to the

:30:26.:30:30.

carers in society taking care of the vulnerable, they are saking in

:30:30.:30:34.

their boots and want the Scottish Parliament to step up and do what

:30:34.:30:38.

they can. I can't believe that indig nation that people are

:30:38.:30:42.

defrauding the system. We have watched MPs defraud the system for

:30:42.:30:51.

the longest time! Let's get a handle on that! Oh, woe betide

:30:51.:30:56.

somebody defrauds the social system! We only have one MP in the

:30:56.:31:01.

system, he is unimpeachable. Uncorruptable. Listen, Charles

:31:01.:31:06.

Kennedy, we mention... Humza Yousaf make as good point.

:31:06.:31:10.

Politicians with the surname of Kennedy have not got a good record

:31:10.:31:14.

here. We are not talking about sex! Let's

:31:14.:31:18.

address the issue of governments over the years having tried to do

:31:18.:31:21.

something about this. It used to be called thinking the unthinkable

:31:21.:31:28.

when Tony Blair came to power and put Frank Field into charge of this.

:31:28.:31:34.

Can we reform it, if you do, can it be painless? No it cannot be

:31:34.:31:38.

painless. I think that, when I started out nearly 30 years ago now

:31:38.:31:42.

in Parliament, one of the issues that I was involved with as a young

:31:42.:31:47.

MP at that point was the welfare state.

:31:47.:31:52.

The health service and the benefits, so on. Everyone could see the

:31:52.:31:55.

iceberg coming out of the mist which was that we were an ageing

:31:55.:32:00.

society, that was going to accelerate, the demography of the

:32:00.:32:06.

situation was what they used to call in that phrase "the inverted

:32:06.:32:10.

pyramid" less taxpayers, smaller families and more to support. You

:32:10.:32:14.

don't have to be a Nobel Prize winner to figure out there is a

:32:14.:32:19.

problem here, Mission Control! I don't think that the problem would

:32:19.:32:25.

be solved, myself, coming back to the question, by devolving more

:32:25.:32:29.

here. I will give an example, pensions, how on earth are you

:32:30.:32:34.

going to disentangle pensions and inheritance on a purely Scottish

:32:34.:32:42.

basis from a UK tax-funded basis, which it has been through

:32:42.:32:45.

generations. I don't think it can be done.

:32:45.:32:50.

You have concerns about this? only speak for the whole of the UK.

:32:50.:32:58.

I started Pat's Petition six months ago. The nature of the percentage

:32:58.:33:02.

of fraud, that was one of the things that the government brought

:33:02.:33:06.

out, to reform benefits for the disabled people because of the

:33:06.:33:13.

fraud rate. That is 0.5%, the lowest rate of fraud next to old

:33:13.:33:18.

age pensioners, but we don't talk about pensioners cheating the

:33:18.:33:20.

system. Unless they are in the House of

:33:20.:33:25.

Lords! I'm work ong that one! much less are you going to get,

:33:25.:33:31.

Pat? What are the fears about the changes? They did talk about when

:33:31.:33:35.

they first brought it in being a complex system. Then the recession

:33:35.:33:40.

came, the bankers, I say broke the society.

:33:40.:33:48.

That was Fred Good win, Alex Salmond's friend! It was a Labour

:33:48.:33:51.

government... Carry on. Now we have a recession, we are

:33:51.:33:54.

told there is no money. The Government has everything handed to

:33:54.:34:02.

them on a plate. They keep cutting and cutting. What concerns us as a,

:34:02.:34:07.

I'm a disabled person, what concerns us is the impact that the

:34:07.:34:11.

social works, the benefits, the housing, the legal aid, the

:34:11.:34:15.

Citizens Advice Bureau, everything falling on disabled people's

:34:15.:34:22.

shoulders, the whole lot coming all in one go. We have looked for a

:34:22.:34:26.

community impact assess model and how it will affect people across

:34:26.:34:30.

the country. As a blind person how does it

:34:30.:34:37.

affect you, you are a carer to? will have to go through

:34:37.:34:44.

reassessment. I was judged registered blind in 1997, I did not

:34:44.:34:50.

have to be reassessed. That was it. How stressful is the process of

:34:50.:34:55.

reassessment? We are frightened. You are going to lose the

:34:55.:35:00.

disability allowances that mean we can have a quality of life that

:35:00.:35:04.

everybody in this audience will probably take for granted. Why do

:35:04.:35:09.

you believe you will lose your benefit? Because they have

:35:10.:35:14.

changed... As we heard from Humza Yousaf we don't don't have the

:35:14.:35:18.

detail. We have the details. There has been

:35:18.:35:24.

a run on the new assessment process. It has been done in Burnley and

:35:24.:35:28.

Aberdeen. The information coming from that to those of us who are

:35:28.:35:31.

politicians on the ground is that there has been fear and concern,

:35:31.:35:40.

but in practise it has worked. How can you have an assessment done

:35:40.:35:45.

by ATUS when it is a tick box. It does not take notice of the person,

:35:45.:35:49.

the healthcare professional. There is no room on the box system for

:35:49.:35:55.

personal information. There is one lady assessed. She did pottery. On

:35:55.:35:59.

the interview she said that she managed pottering, there was

:35:59.:36:05.

nothing on that assessment to take into account that individual

:36:05.:36:09.

person's needs... So it is blunt and imprecise.

:36:09.:36:12.

What is interesting about the discussion is we are talking about

:36:12.:36:16.

the administration of the welfare system it goes back to the

:36:16.:36:21.

nationalised method. It is not ever going to work because it is a far

:36:22.:36:26.

too big. We have to move to other ways of organisation to make this

:36:26.:36:30.

happen and break down the money. Get the money going to individual

:36:30.:36:35.

people. For the Conservative MSP to suggest

:36:35.:36:39.

it is not impact on Scotland demonstrates his ignorance of some

:36:39.:36:44.

of the different legislation within Scotland. There are 32 local

:36:44.:36:48.

authorities who are having to plan with regards to housing and

:36:48.:36:54.

homelessness now. They are looking to chaos and bankruptcy, given the

:36:54.:36:56.

homelessness responsibilities. It will be a complete nonsense for you

:36:56.:37:01.

to say that. The system failing in Scotland is the system put in place

:37:02.:37:07.

by previous governments over generations. The reforms taking

:37:07.:37:11.

place would have been administered had it not been for the fact that

:37:11.:37:14.

the Scottish Parliament rejected the opportunity to pass the powers

:37:14.:37:18.

back to Westminster. Now we have to quickly create a process in

:37:18.:37:22.

Scotland which is designed to paper over the cracks created by that

:37:22.:37:26.

decision. It is happening now.

:37:26.:37:36.
:37:36.:37:36.

If the result of this, Humza Yousaf, is a more generous, a less cut

:37:36.:37:41.

benefit system in Scotland, would thereby the responsibility of

:37:41.:37:46.

benefit tourism? People from other parts of the European Union coming

:37:46.:37:49.

to Scotland as they will not go to England is that ridiculous? It is,

:37:49.:37:55.

but the point is about the detail that the gentleman is making...

:37:55.:38:03.

Hang on, why is that ridiculous? Hold on if you are a citizen of the

:38:03.:38:09.

European Union and we are, and so is everything else in the European

:38:09.:38:14.

Union then you have equal entitlement.

:38:14.:38:24.
:38:24.:38:28.

All On Red -- ALL SPEAK AT ONCE People from Scotland don't go to

:38:28.:38:31.

other parts of the European Union because they have better benefits.

:38:31.:38:35.

That does not happen, but the point is, the point that the gentleman

:38:35.:38:41.

was making which was correct, you have a UK Government that I sass

:38:41.:38:46.

they can't so shave -- to shave off �2 50 million from the disability

:38:46.:38:51.

welfare, you don't give the detail, it is natural that people assume

:38:51.:38:55.

the worst. If you know there are cuts coming your way, you will suem

:38:55.:38:59.

the worst and put in place the structures for that. You cannot

:38:59.:39:05.

hold that against people. Kitty? The welfare reforms are not

:39:05.:39:11.

just about disability benefit, but a raft of other things. The idea of

:39:11.:39:17.

a universal benefit which is coming along. That is surely a good one.

:39:17.:39:21.

For all there are people that defraud the system, there are those

:39:21.:39:25.

who don't collect the benefit as they don't understand the system. I

:39:25.:39:29.

think it would be detrimental. We have a fluid society in the UK. My

:39:29.:39:34.

children live half in Scotland, half in England. If we start

:39:34.:39:40.

separating it out, the idea was, sorry, to simplify, to have a

:39:40.:39:43.

universal benefit. I can't see how a simplified benefit system

:39:43.:39:47.

throughout the whole of the UK would be bad for people. At least

:39:47.:39:53.

they could understand it and if you did not like it, you could complain.

:39:53.:39:59.

At the moment it is so complicated. The highest rate of disability

:39:59.:40:05.

allowance for a person is about �70 a week, the DLA care package. An

:40:05.:40:12.

MSP is paid more than that to stay in a hotel in Edinburgh! APPLAUSE

:40:12.:40:19.

We are going to leave it there. Ed I will come to you in the last

:40:19.:40:29.
:40:29.:40:30.

debate. He knows the Royal family b.

:40:30.:40:33.

-- very well. If you have views about that debate

:40:33.:40:36.

just log on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and follow the links to

:40:36.:40:40.

where you can continue the discussion online. It all began

:40:40.:40:42.

back in March when the Queen and Prince Phillip visited Leicester,

:40:42.:40:45.

Britain's most multi-cultural city. By the end of July, the 86-year-old

:40:45.:40:48.

Queen and the 91-year-old Duke will have traversed the length and

:40:48.:40:51.

breadth of her kingdom on her Diamond Jubilee tour. And today

:40:51.:40:54.

they'll all be floating down the Thames on barges, probably in the

:40:54.:41:00.

rain. Is the Jubilee showing Britain at its best? Now, Katie

:41:00.:41:07.

Grant has presided over a remarkable er a... Me? You have,

:41:07.:41:13.

you are a remarkable woman, you don't look your age at all! No, the

:41:13.:41:19.

Queen, she has almost become a cultural icon? Yes, she has. What

:41:19.:41:22.

is important about the Jubilee is people looking outside what they

:41:22.:41:25.

see about us from the outside. I think it is a great thing that they

:41:25.:41:31.

do see the best of British. The Pageant tri which is great. The

:41:31.:41:36.

street parties, people getting together -- Pageantry. The

:41:36.:41:40.

wonderful people in the Mall there twor two or three days. I think

:41:40.:41:44.

that when people look at Britain they see a sense of joy. How can

:41:44.:41:49.

that be bad? There is a chance for everyone to get together. Does she

:41:49.:41:56.

preside over a union ified, multi- cultural kingdom? She does, not

:41:56.:42:01.

always unified. But she is a constant? The Jubilee

:42:01.:42:07.

givers us a chance to argue. We can all argue. We have free speech in

:42:07.:42:11.

the country. People can argue about whether she is a good thing or bad

:42:11.:42:15.

thing. I think that the monarchy is a good thing it is nice it is

:42:15.:42:19.

something that we do well. Charles Kennedy, even a rabid lefty

:42:19.:42:24.

like yourself is not going to argue against this? I will answer to

:42:24.:42:34.
:42:34.:42:35.

being a Jacobite! No, I think, I agree. I think it is a plus.

:42:35.:42:41.

I really do. The thing that strikes me, you know,

:42:41.:42:48.

I'm not somebody who is terribly in favour of the hereditary principle

:42:48.:42:56.

or that, but when the Honours comes around and it is the lollipop lady,

:42:56.:43:02.

the unsung heroes and the pleasure that gives to so many people at a

:43:02.:43:07.

local level, this are never going to be on national television, their

:43:07.:43:13.

name up in lights, irthink that is... The Queen herself over 60

:43:13.:43:18.

years, do you think she has done a remarkable job? I think she has.

:43:18.:43:26.

Can you think of anyone from Prime Ministers to Archbishops, anyone

:43:26.:43:34.

who has held such a prominent, global position public ally for 60

:43:34.:43:39.

years. She has hardly put a foot wrong.

:43:39.:43:44.

When the historians write, sad to say, one day, the reflections on

:43:44.:43:50.

this era, I think it will go down as a remarkable plus story.

:43:50.:43:53.

APPLAUSE You two! What on earth are you

:43:53.:43:59.

going to say! I think that she comes from a great immigrant family

:43:59.:44:02.

that came to this country and that is with great respect she has done

:44:02.:44:06.

well in that. I think it is wonderful we have the Greeks, the

:44:06.:44:11.

Germans, ul of them there, that is unification. I reckon in Glasgow,

:44:11.:44:16.

as I came here this morning, the swathes of bunting and Union Jacks

:44:17.:44:21.

missed me because the orange walk is not out today. So I never saw

:44:21.:44:25.

that but I'm not against, I'm not against the retrospective, I

:44:25.:44:29.

tonight think we should start hunting them down, the way we do

:44:29.:44:36.

MPs that screw with our taxes. On this day OK, there is old women

:44:36.:44:41.

who haved with drug addicts and prostitutes and helped women come

:44:41.:44:45.

off drugs and done this for many years. That is a great job. Being

:44:45.:44:51.

born into a job where you wear a nice frock, occasionally open a

:44:51.:44:57.

Teflon fact tri, I'm sure that is hard. My wee granny worked in a

:44:57.:45:07.
:45:07.:45:10.

fish factory, that was a hard job. APPLAUSE On this day of days! Katie

:45:10.:45:16.

Grant? It is, I know a joke. I know you are a stand-up comedian. And a

:45:16.:45:20.

writer! You would not do it to anybody else, I have to say.

:45:20.:45:27.

would! Your granny did a wonderful job. The Queen does a good job.

:45:27.:45:33.

They don't do the same job. They don't, my granny had to apply for

:45:33.:45:42.

her job, you are absolutely right. We can be tolerant and diverse, she

:45:42.:45:46.

is everything from Brenda to Her Majesty. It is fantastic that we

:45:46.:45:52.

have that institution, you can have a bev y for her or put the ermine

:45:52.:45:58.

on it is a different thing. Alan I don't imagine you have

:45:58.:46:07.

bunting up at your place? I may go to a barbeque. People are getting

:46:07.:46:12.

together in their communities, this is good. We don't do enough of that

:46:12.:46:16.

in our society. I just don't think that we need the Queen to do it. We

:46:16.:46:20.

were talking about the benefit system, we are paying hundreds of

:46:20.:46:24.

millions of taxpayers' money in a recession to celebrate the fact...

:46:24.:46:28.

It is costing very little. You say that, but when there is a national

:46:29.:46:32.

strike called, the Government are the first to say how much is this

:46:32.:46:38.

harming the economy. Here we are having a Jubilee weekend where we

:46:38.:46:42.

all take the time off, no-one is saying anything about that

:46:42.:46:48.

Do you hold her in affection? have nothing against her. By I

:46:48.:46:55.

don't agree with inherited wealth. In a modern demo accuratic

:46:55.:46:59.

prefer President Boris Johnson? because of the word "President"

:46:59.:47:06.

ahead of it, ewould have a say in the choosing of the state. You say

:47:06.:47:15.

is the Jubilee showing Britain at its best? No it is showing Britain

:47:15.:47:20.

as uneven, or the BBC light in the unfawning coverage.

:47:20.:47:28.

What, right now? The BBC right now have an oasis... I am talking about

:47:28.:47:32.

across the four days. The coverage of this is unbelievable. I escaped

:47:32.:47:38.

to Scotland to get away from it. She has been on the thrown for 60

:47:38.:47:41.

years. Because nobody got a chance to

:47:41.:47:47.

elect her in or out. If you want her on the thrown for 60 years,

:47:47.:47:51.

then vote for her. Surely when we spent part of the

:47:51.:47:56.

programme earlier, discussing the Head of State in Syria, you must

:47:56.:47:59.

realise that we get good value for money.

:47:59.:48:04.

That is a good example, Bashar al- Assad! Alex Salmond has been

:48:04.:48:07.

converted. In an independent Scotland he wants to keep her as

:48:07.:48:12.

the Head of State. So let's have a photo with the

:48:12.:48:20.

Queen and Bashar al-Assad. You said pageantry, you also mentioned north

:48:20.:48:25.

Korean death camps. The idea that we should base our constitution and

:48:25.:48:34.

political system on the base of praj tri and tourism is absurd.

:48:34.:48:40.

-- pageantry. Let's celebrate democracy and not

:48:40.:48:50.

inherited privileges! We do. Did you give the Queen no credit

:48:50.:48:53.

for anything? Of course I do. It is interesting you make it

:48:53.:48:57.

personal about the Queen. This is her day? Let's have this

:48:57.:49:01.

discussion when Charles is the king. I find it interesting that

:49:01.:49:06.

monarchists say that they support the traditions, but when the polls

:49:06.:49:09.

show that the people want the tradition to continue, they want

:49:09.:49:13.

William to continue it. Why is Glasgow not, sorry I know you are

:49:13.:49:18.

into this, I don't want to steal your moment, because it is a

:49:18.:49:22.

cracking hobby! But why is Glasgow not celebrating the Jubilee as

:49:22.:49:26.

much? And nobody talks about it. The problem is in Glasgow we have

:49:26.:49:33.

the problem of sectarianism with the Union flag... It has different

:49:33.:49:37.

baggage? If you have Union flags hanging out of the window, people

:49:37.:49:42.

don't think that man really likes the Queen, you are thinking oh, the

:49:42.:49:47.

orange walk is coming soon. That is the problem. We should have had the

:49:47.:49:55.

royal standard as a flag if you wanted to portray it, it has no BNP

:49:55.:50:02.

or connotations behind it. E d, let's personallise it, this is

:50:02.:50:11.

her day, a word on ent Queen? know -- a word on the? I her as a

:50:11.:50:17.

person. Not from the TV footage and so on. She is very down to earth,

:50:17.:50:21.

she is committed to the job she is doing. Which other country in the

:50:21.:50:26.

world can have a Head of State that's been in place for 60 years

:50:26.:50:30.

and given steady, good counsel all of that time, regardless of whether

:50:30.:50:37.

you are aist or not. I mean, unless you go to some of the dir takeships,

:50:37.:50:44.

like... Like France, Germany, the United States? If you go to that

:50:44.:50:52.

situation with a President, or Johnston or whatever, they are re-

:50:52.:50:58.

elected every eight years. So, she rises above it? She a

:50:58.:51:02.

apolitical above everyone and she is a steady influence in the

:51:02.:51:05.

country, regardless of whether it is England and Wales, Scotland or

:51:05.:51:09.

Ireland. She is the Queen of Britain.

:51:10.:51:18.

Prince Philip by her side today? is a wit. Very much so.

:51:18.:51:20.

APPLAUSE Has he got a wicked sense of

:51:20.:51:28.

humour? Absolutely. I will give him an open spot on a

:51:29.:51:36.

comedy gag! See how he does. No, I suppose because I live in

:51:36.:51:40.

Crathie I happen to be in a position to meet the retrospective,

:51:40.:51:44.

she will stop and speak to you if you are out on the golf course,

:51:44.:51:50.

they all do. They are just like good neighbours.

:51:50.:51:55.

That is the way they have always been.

:51:55.:52:00.

You were nodding all the way through that so you think she has

:52:00.:52:04.

done a wonderful job and this is a great cause for celebration? I do

:52:04.:52:08.

think it is a great cause for celebration. There are not many

:52:08.:52:11.

countries have the monarchy, the Queen. They are talking about the

:52:11.:52:15.

tax and the money that has been spent, but they also bring a lot of

:52:15.:52:20.

money into the country, tourism.That Is a point I would

:52:20.:52:25.

like to make. On one of the News Channels on Friday night, they said

:52:25.:52:31.

that the cost of this Jubilee celebrations in London, the Thames

:52:31.:52:37.

Pageant today has been paid for by private donations. All of the rest

:52:37.:52:44.

of the celebrations a -- amounts to �3 million. The comment made by the

:52:44.:52:48.

commentator, the income generated is priceless.

:52:48.:52:53.

That is lovely that she knows a lot of private donations it was

:52:54.:53:00.

provided for by private donations, she knows such rich people. We have

:53:00.:53:05.

one in four children in Scotland living in poverty, maybe private

:53:05.:53:08.

donations would help them as Westminster.

:53:08.:53:15.

We should go back to the origin of Jubilee, that was to free debts,

:53:15.:53:19.

free slaves and give back the land to people that owned. To reflect on

:53:19.:53:24.

what we did well and to put up our hands to say this is what we have

:53:24.:53:31.

to do better. That, I wish we would Well, you said yourself that the

:53:31.:53:35.

Queen is good value for money, there was a figure that was said

:53:35.:53:40.

that there is like 66 pence mer per day, per person, but that is not

:53:40.:53:44.

true if you add on the security and the grants and unpaid tax it comes

:53:45.:53:50.

up to about �150 million a year. Now, if we were to have elected

:53:50.:53:57.

President like the one in Ireland that would cost 5% of that, 95% of

:53:58.:54:01.

that �150 million could be better spent. I think.

:54:01.:54:05.

In reference to the question in terms of how it presents Britain at

:54:05.:54:12.

its best, because we live in such a richly diverse and multiculture

:54:12.:54:16.

nation that is Britain it would be good to join into the celebrations

:54:16.:54:21.

that mark the cause of say the festivals such as for example

:54:21.:54:27.

marking the cause of the months's long fast at the end which is Eid

:54:27.:54:31.

and so on. But people do that, don't they?

:54:31.:54:35.

they do, but to make more of a hype about it

:54:35.:54:41.

You have been looking Grumpy! is not about the cost. I don't care

:54:41.:54:45.

about the cost. He sounds like George Bush now!

:54:45.:54:50.

is not about the cost. The cost is a red herring. The issue is the

:54:50.:54:55.

symbolism. We live in a deeply unequal society. When you celebrate

:54:55.:55:01.

the monarchy, you are celebrating inequality. A group of people

:55:01.:55:07.

allowed to rule over us. Does she not rule over the waves?

:55:07.:55:11.

As Head of State, as head of the Church of England, et cetera, we

:55:11.:55:15.

are privilegeing small family of people who were not elected, who

:55:15.:55:20.

are there simply by accident of birth. I don't think that is a good

:55:20.:55:23.

thing to teach our children. That is a respectable republican

:55:23.:55:28.

argument to put forward, but the question now simply to pose is

:55:28.:55:35.

this: We are seeing wauf-to- wall coverage of the Jubilee as we are

:55:35.:55:39.

of the Olympic torch, where are the mass protests saying down with the

:55:39.:55:44.

Queen. They are here in the studio! Does

:55:44.:55:50.

that not tell you something? Just because my argument is not popular,

:55:50.:55:56.

does not make it wrong! If arcy is so popular, vote them N

:55:56.:56:02.

Most people support it I like Katie's piece when she said

:56:02.:56:08.

that the whole world has eyes on Britain, but I'm sorry, people in

:56:08.:56:13.

Spain and Greece are not watching this coverage! They are watching it

:56:13.:56:18.

in Australia! I was in America at the time of the Royal Wedding. I

:56:18.:56:21.

was flicking through the television station, they were obsessed with it.

:56:21.:56:25.

Is that the Britain, I know you are not keen on the concept of Britain

:56:25.:56:30.

perse, but is that the country that you want the world to see? I wanted

:56:30.:56:35.

to touch on that. We have to accept that Britain has been and is a four

:56:35.:56:38.

different nation states and what makes people tick in Scotland does

:56:38.:56:43.

not make people in other parts of the United Kingdom tick. The poll

:56:43.:56:47.

that came out showed in England 75% of people in England were inspired

:56:47.:56:54.

by the Queen, by their identity. That figure was only 40%, Robert

:56:54.:57:01.

Burns was 85% about what makes you feel inspired to be Scottish. So

:57:01.:57:05.

different things... Salmond is going to maintain the monarchy of

:57:05.:57:13.

Scotland when he wants to have an independent nation, he wants the

:57:13.:57:18.

Queen to stay. What is that saying? I think when a

:57:18.:57:25.

country is ready to move fron the monarchy, -- move on from the

:57:25.:57:30.

monarchy, taking Jamaica, this year, 50 years, they said OK, that the

:57:30.:57:32.

people of Jamaica are ready to be independent.

:57:33.:57:37.

If you are ready to be independent it is a different system? You are

:57:37.:57:43.

looking uncomfortable now? I am not bothered about the face on coins,

:57:43.:57:47.

the stamps, this is not about flags, anthems but the power to control

:57:47.:57:51.

here in the best interests of Scottish people. There is a poll

:57:51.:57:55.

that says that Scots respected Billy Connolly more than the Queen.

:57:55.:57:59.

That was a recent poll. I think that a lot of people it is a

:57:59.:58:03.

generational thing now. The older generation, and total respect...

:58:03.:58:13.
:58:13.:58:17.

There you go, King Billy!? He has a different religion! Charles

:58:17.:58:22.

Kennedy? We have in the course of the programme talked about two

:58:22.:58:27.

issues, another country and a domestic, a huge issue facing us,

:58:27.:58:31.

welfare. To both extents, the situation is broken, how can you

:58:31.:58:37.

fix it, make it better? Sometimes in life it is worth saying if it

:58:37.:58:40.

ain't broke, don't fix it. Thank you very That's it for this

:58:40.:58:42.

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