Episode 11 The Big Questions


Episode 11

Nicky Campbell presents live debate from Newcastle upon Tyne. Has trade unionism had its day? Is animal testing ever justified? And, does religion make you happy?


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Transcript


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Good morning! I am Nicky Campbell, welcome. We are live from

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Northumbria University in Newcastle upon Tyne, welcome to The Big

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Questions! This week, the left-wing of British politics lost two

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important voices, Tony Benn and Bob Crow. Tony Benn was part of

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Labour's political aristocracy, Bob Crow was the general secretary of

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the RMT, where he secured money, perks and a generous pension for

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Tube drivers. Jeremy Paxman accused Bob Crow of being a dinosaur, Bob

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Crow replied, they were around for a long while. Has trade unionism had

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its day? Is there a place still for union leaders like Bob Crow, big

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figures fighting hard for their members? In some days, they hark

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back to the likes of Jack Jones. Are they of a bygone Iraq? Of course

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not. Bob Crow doubled his membership, nearly, the cos he was

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fighting for his members and getting good pay rises. If a union is doing

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that, you will get people wanting to join. It is good money, they will

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think. Trade unions have got a role to play. All over the world. A good,

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strong union. We have got strong industry here, the bosses have

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always been strong, so why should the trade unions not be? They are

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ordinary people, coming together. ?50,000 a year for the drivers, that

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is a fantastic deal. In the City of London, nobody pays anybody more

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than they are worth or more than the company could afford, clearly, the

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company can afford ?50,000 a year. Massive respect for what he

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delivered, but it was a short-term gain. Boris Johnson is looking to

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have driverless trains. If the cost of the drivers was not so high, he

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would not consider that. It is a short-term gain. The way we go about

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business now is working with trade unions, rather than having an

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adversarial relationship. You look at the British motor industry, you

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look at the 70s, you will remember... Barely! It was full of

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strikes every day, Miss Anne came in, they said, we want to book

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together, the most productive plant in Europe, washing out cars. The

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staff are well paid, they work hard, but they do not have an adversarial

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relationship. Would that company have been able to operate in this

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part of the world in the 70s and early 80s? Only if the trade unions

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could have moved with the times. That is right in a sense, the unions

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have modernised, we are talking about the miners strike, we will

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never get that again. But trade unions have modernised, Nissan a

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great example. As long as you are working together and it is not all

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one-sided. I have seen people working together in workshops, it

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has been one-sided. As long as trade unions are working with industry to

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make it take and make the work better and to have the conditions

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that they need, fine. There will never be anything like the miners

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strike again, can you conceive a situation where there would be

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industrial action as all-encompassing and bitter as that

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in this country? Nobody wanted to go down that road. Could it happen? I

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hope not, because a year-long means that neither side has won. I can see

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that circumstances will arise where people will get angry about the

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state of affairs and they will say, enough is enough. I was at a meeting

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yesterday, grouping together trade unions and local campaigners, and

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there is a mood of anger against austerity, I can foresee they will

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ordinate industrial action, because services are being destroyed, people

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do not like that, and trade unions want to be at the service of the

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community as well as their members. I can see that happening. Even the

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strikes that the RNC brought in January, London businesses were at

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breaking point. Businesses, retailers in London, if you have

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two, four days out, when the country is trying to come out of recession,

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it will kill the monthly turnover. Who was responsible? Bob Crow. No,

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it was Boris Johnson, removing staff from ticket offices. The members in

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that union said, no, we will not have our jobs lost. That is what

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motivates people to take industrial action, their right to have a job,

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decent pay and decent conditions. They are politicising an issue which

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is a management/worker emotion chip bubble. They need to think of

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change. A good union does not turn round with a fight against

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austerity. Public sector jobs are going to the private sector. That is

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great if you are in the private sector, but the unions are trying to

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politicise it by saying this is a way to tackle austerity. We can not

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afford the high cost of public expenditure. In fairness to the

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workers, we have got the bankers' bonuses, and the wages they are

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getting, and the money they are getting. And they are being told, I

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am not going to get a rise, and I am in debt, and austerity has hit me

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for four or five years, and here are the gaffers getting all of this

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money. It is unbalanced. You come to our members, nothing of what you

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have said relates to them. Most of them are hard-working, fighting for

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profit, risking everything. When you say that they are gaffers, that is

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an old term. What about the fat cats in the City of London? We stood up

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and said that the fact that the dividend payments at Barclays were

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three times lower than the executive pay, that is wrong. We do not deny

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that, so do not start throbbing that back. Thousands of workers in this

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country are not going to get a pay rise this year. And thousands of

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businesses are struggling to stay afloat. Profit is rising. That is

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the success of the whole organisation. You talked about jobs

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going to the private sector. In Doncaster, the careful people with

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mental disabilities has been privatised, they have cut the pay of

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the workers. In some cases by up to 50%. The union members have taken

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seven days of strike action, something they would never have done

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in the past, and they are going to take another seven days. They are

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having their pay cut as a result of privatisation. They are not the only

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ones. Is there a case for some people in the public sector not to

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be allowed to strike? Indeed. This is not going to go down well with

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these men. The London Tube network and some of the union members should

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not be allowed to strike where there is a larger financial benefit to

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London or the UK as a whole. The police cannot strike, the Tube

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network in London is an essential service, it should be regarded as

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such. Teachers? If you are going to roll that theory out, oddly, yes. If

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you take that away from working people, you are taking their rights

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away. There are many who have sympathy with your position, many do

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not, but these are hard-won rights in the 18th and 19th century, a

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fascinating part of our history. Are you suggesting they should be

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curtailed? Rolled back? Yes, and some of the rules need to evolve.

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Many rules and regulations have evolved through time, as the world

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has changed. This is one of those things that needs to be changed, it

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needs to evolve with the times. The bosses and the people who are at the

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control cannot be trusted, we have seen this with the bankers. If the

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workers have not got some way to defend themselves, they will just be

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exploited, we see it everyday. 50% of employment in this country in the

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private sector is in small business, and this general term, the bosses,

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is being thrown around, as if we are all getting bankers' bonuses, but it

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is a tiny percentage. The modern world is very different. You are

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talking about joining the modern Iraq. Are they dinosaurs? The

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dinosaurs died out, let's hope these old ways are going. Let the

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Victorian mill owners buy off, but equally, we need the trade union

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movement to move on. We have to be careful coming down your throat,

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because there are bosses that will exploit workers -- coming down your

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route. We know Ryan air very well, but if you ask Michael Leary who the

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most important people in their organisation in terms of the

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stakeholders, he talks about the staff, he says, if the staff are

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happy, and therefore the shareholders are happy. Office

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workers happy? Why does he not let them join a union, then? If he think

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they are happy, he would not have to worry. We have the working poor,

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people who are in work and still poor, and the taxpayer is

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subsidising their bosses. If everybody had a fair day's paid for

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a fair day's work, there would be no problem. What about customers? We

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have mentioned the bosses and the workers, what about the customers?

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The lady at the back, good morning. Good morning! I am wondering what

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you mean about fair play. As a 20-year-old, I am still being

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parried's paid ?5 an hour. I have worked in different bars, and you

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have to kind of businesses, the one where I am working now, where I know

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the boss, and I know they are having issues, they are trying to start

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up, they say, we will pay you the minimum wage, you have got to

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understand we are trying to build, and after rebuild, we can give you

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something back, but some places, I have a zero our contract, they will

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give you the minimum pay, they are getting the money in, and they are

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leaking you there. It is not like you have a lot of emphasis on the

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trains, this is a lot of people working in bars and these kind of

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places, and they do not get a say, and they are struggling. Many

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companies without unions will pay people as little as they can get

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away with, you don't think so? No, it is a short-term solution, not a

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long-term fix. Most people in business are looking for long term.

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You can't do that forever. You've got to treat your staff well or they

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do not perform as best they can. If they perform well, your business

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performs well. And what about the argument about protecting the jobs

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of the here and now and in so doing jeopardising the jobs in the future,

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it was that the case in the '70s? We are a globally competitive world, so

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whatever we do, we have to make sure we are better, be it by quality,

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price or service, than anyone else in the world. We can't look across

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the river and say, they are paid 50p an hour more. One of the issues of

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this time is zero hour contracts. They've risen 1,000% in the last

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couple of years. It kills your argument. No, it helps it. I have a

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chap who is 56, he doesn't want to work full time. He is a craftsman.

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He likes the idea that he can have a few weeks off. We work together. But

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that's the exception. No it is not, it happens all the time. The

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gentleman there. Good morning. I think if your friend was a single

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man, wouldn't enjoy that time off with zero hours contracts.

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APPLAUSE And if you pay workers more money, that money goes back into the

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economy. If people use the word gaffer, I apologise if a working

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class term offends you that much. APPLAUSE Down, boy! Hold fire. Let's

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get more comments. With the glasses. The thing is you are alls talking

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about trade unions and that's all well and good, but it seems to me

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you are talking about people who've already in work. I've only just

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turned 16, so I'm at the age now where I can start looking for a job

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and get work, and a few of my friends are, but we don't know our

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rights. We are taught, this is how you do a CV, but we need somebody

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our age to stand up for us and say, this is what you are allowed. If we

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don't have that, it is easy for us to be taken advantage of, and that

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has happened. APPLAUSE Who is there for the

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workers Richard? Modern business doesn't look to take advantage of

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its workforce. Private companies look to work with their employees,

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because a happy workforce actually looks to further the company's aims,

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once the company is making more money, the customer is more engaged

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and there is more money to pay the staff. We had a situation here on

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Tyneside where on the Metro, the private contractor employed the

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cleaners on a minimum wage, refused to recognise the trade union. That

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was a success of the RMT, they won a living wage for those cleaners. It

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took 12 months but they did it. As much as I think it would be lovely

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to say bosses wants to look after their staff, unfortunately you will

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always get a certain amount of people that won't treat people well

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and somebody needs to look after people who haven't got a voice.

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APPLAUSE Ian and Richard here in Newcastle University you've come

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into the lion's den! The exception moves rule. Good employers will

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survive in the long return and bad employers won't. One of the things

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we have to bear in mind is the vast majority. It is a bit like you might

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say the dinosaurs but the trade union movement are dying out and the

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modern unions are coming forward. You would think from listening to

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Ian we have Utopia in industry. We haven't got any! The world is

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constantly changing and we have to move with it. Globalisation,

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freelance work... Zero hours work contracts, whatever it is. I

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employed an apprentice. He understood customer service, what it

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ways like to turn up every day and he was better prepared to work

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Have you been in a union? Yes I was. I left a union as well. I was in the

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national Union of Journalists when I first started in the working world.

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What's wrong, couldn't hack it? APPLAUSE You making the just

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remember the 1980s, it was time when the NUV was strong, powerful, but

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there was a huge amount of change coming place. I had come out of

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university and I was using a PC, but they used a typewriter with carbon

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papers. It was a joke. I was struggling away. I said to the

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editor, who had a computer, "Can I have a computer?" He said

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unfortunately the NUJ refuses to let you have computers unless you get

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more pay for using one. I said, buts easier for me. But he said no, the

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union refuses. After six months of the union wanting another 20% pay

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rise, I said my life's miserable because of what the trade union

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wants. I left the union and got a PC. Within two years the union had

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been derecognised because of its very narrow minded stand.

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APPLAUSE Isn't it a good thing that practices like that are in the, to

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use Lenin's phrase, if I may, in the dustbin of history? No, I think

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trade unions have a role to play in the future. But practise like that?

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Practices like that are dying off. You will (Inaudible) we never had

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that, by the way. Down the mines you did what you were told to do. If we

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kill trade unions now, which the Tories are trying to do, lo and

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behold the workers of the future. What killed the coal mine industry,

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30 years on, some people say it was Mrs Thatcher and some say it was the

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strikes. No, it was the Ridley plan. She brought in an American and he

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did the work for her. Without those strikes what would the mining

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industry have looked like today? Very different. There's some great

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challenges for school in this country. They are closing all the

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coal-power powered power stations. If you employ politicians, they are

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paying a strike price for renewable energy where you can't afford to

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generate gas or coal. That's a political manipulation. Remove

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politicians. Apart from Ronnie. Thank you all very much for taking

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part. Thank you. APPLAUSE If you have something to

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say about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow

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the link to where you can join in the discussion online. Or contribute

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on Twitter. We're also debating live this morning: Is animal testing ever

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justified? And does religion make you happy? So get tweeting or

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emailing on those topics now, or send us any other ideas or thoughts

:20:52.:20:53.

you may have about the show. .

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Two universities here in the northeast of England have been

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causing controversy with experiments on animals. Newcastle University was

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in trouble for operating on baboons in Kenya to find treatments for

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stroke patients. And now there are protests against its work here,

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where macaque monkeys have been used for research into shakes and tremors

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in humans. And Durham University has reported a sevenfold increase in its

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use of animals in research. Is animal testing ever justified?

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Professor Paul Flecknell, hello, where are you Paul? Laboratory

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animal science at Newcastle University. I'm sure nobody in the

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studio will suggest that experiments on our closest relatives, the great

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apes, the chimps, that's been phased out in the western world,

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intelligent, sentient, cognitive, it is amazing that this goes on

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elsewhere. Why though macaques? We use very few - I should say first of

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all we use very few animals in our research programme in the UK. At

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Newcastle for example it is about 10% of our total medical research

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but the. The rest is, our colleagues would call alternative methods. But

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it is made up for in numbers by mice. I understand this, and it will

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no doubt come out, where macaques? Because they are so similar to us.

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They have some parts of their brain that we have and mice don't, rats

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don't, the other species that are used in labs don't. Because they are

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so like us, it raises even more ethical concerns about using them in

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research. Hence the point about chimps and great apes. The more like

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us they are the more useful it is. Beagles are used, and cats. A lot of

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people will say the fact that it works, or is effective, doesn't mean

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that it is right. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's right.

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What we are saying is that the means justify the benefits to humans. You

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call me Professor. I started life as a veterinary surgeon and working in

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practice and I moved into the field where I'm responsible for the

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welfare of animals in laboratories. I would rather we didn't use animals

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in research. As a vet, I care about animals, but I have to confess that

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at the end of the day I think people matter more. If the only way that we

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are going to make rapid progress towards treating some of the major

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disease problems that we still have is to use animals for part of that

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research, then it is ethical to do so. White bun ethical to say no

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we're not going to do, that we are going to deny ourselves all of those

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research options. APPLAUSE Dr Jarrod Bailey, we have

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the strongest ethical rules in the world in this country. We are

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leading the way, are we not, in the ethical treatment of lab animals?

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They may or may not be the strong nest the world. What we are - you

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can claim that they are the least-worst. We find out what really

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goes on in labs not from the PR from the industries that use them, from

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the people that use them, but from undercover investigations. People

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who go in unknown and take footage of what is being done. What's

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happening to these macaques, do you imagine? Fist of all they suffer

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from just being in a laboratory. This is scientifically acknowledged.

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They become stressed just from routine procedures from handling,

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seek people experimenting on them, having blood taken. Experimentally

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they are poisoned. They have new chemicals and substances tested,

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forced down tubes into their stomachs. They are forested to

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inhale them. They are have their skulls removed, things implanted

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into their brains. Experiments that are very invasive and cause a huge

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amount of suffering. That's what really goes on. Theeth cat argument

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not only involves what is being done to the animals, and there is strong

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evidence that there the suffering of animals in labs much greater than

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the people who do it would have you believe, so the cost is greater. But

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is that animal experimentation really essential to human cures and

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treatments to furthering the medicine? Or is it incidental? Sit

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counterproductive? There is a lot of evidence that I and other scientists

:25:38.:25:43.

like me have helped gather to show it is counterproductive. Animal

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research is misleading. They are not little furry humans and we would be

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much better, as you mentioned with chimpanzees in the US, that's

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stopped, and it has stopped because an independent science panel looked

:25:58.:26:00.

at the evidence... Because they are so like us. They didn't need to use

:26:01.:26:04.

chimps had. Even though they are the most like us they are not like us

:26:05.:26:08.

enough. If chimps aren't good enough, how on earth can any other

:26:09.:26:12.

animal species be good enough? We don't need to use animals?

:26:13.:26:17.

APPLAUSE To come back on the point that all eur mimates are -- our

:26:18.:26:24.

primates are frightened and distressed, we used nine macaques

:26:25.:26:30.

last year out of 25 animals which were primarily rats, mice and fish.

:26:31.:26:34.

Those animals were bred in captivity in the UK for research. When I go in

:26:35.:26:39.

to see them, they don't cower into a corner. They try to steal my badge

:26:40.:26:44.

and mobile phone, because that would be entertaining for them, not so

:26:45.:26:49.

much for me. Do they have a play area? They have play areas. They

:26:50.:26:54.

interact with their cage mates, their pen mates. I should say, is

:26:55.:27:00.

we've taken round nonscientists to look at them. Yesterday Steve Owen,

:27:01.:27:07.

and this backs up what you are saying, he said, I love prime axts

:27:08.:27:12.

when you work with a monkey study you really get to know them. In the

:27:13.:27:16.

end I prefer that it is me that puts them down. I know Steve and yes he

:27:17.:27:22.

will genuinely care about then answer. For our technical staff and

:27:23.:27:27.

the scientists who work with these animals, they do become individuals

:27:28.:27:30.

and it does become very hard when it is the end of a study and the animal

:27:31.:27:36.

has to be humanely killed. Ben? We are, you say there a maul number of

:27:37.:27:42.

animals being uxtd last year we used 4. 1 million animals in the UK

:27:43.:27:45.

medical experiments, the highest number in a generation. For those 4.

:27:46.:27:51.

1 million animals we don't have 4. 1 million new vaccines. There are 20

:27:52.:27:55.

inspectors, less than that now in the UK, for those 4. 1 million

:27:56.:27:59.

animal as. My colleague here did fantastic work. They went undercover

:28:00.:28:05.

at the Imperial College... A lot were fish and mice, have to say.

:28:06.:28:12.

People draw the lines at the most cognitive animals, macaque as

:28:13.:28:15.

include oozed. But fish and mice, people don't have such a problem

:28:16.:28:20.

with that That's very bizarre to me. All animals have the ability to feel

:28:21.:28:26.

pain and fear like we do. No, they don't. One of the reasons why, and I

:28:27.:28:30.

would fully support Jarrod and his campaign to not use chimpanzees,

:28:31.:28:36.

their brains are so like us and their emotional awareness is close

:28:37.:28:40.

us the that they feel pain and distress... But not a macaque? There

:28:41.:28:45.

is a difference. To say that a zebra fish, especially one at five days

:28:46.:28:49.

old, when it is about this big, feels same way that a mouse or a

:28:50.:28:54.

rats or a macaque does. They certainly feel pain. They have

:28:55.:28:58.

desires to live out their own live lease. So if that is the case we

:28:59.:29:07.

should ban fishing. Many species of animal, from rodents up, have

:29:08.:29:12.

similar structures and pathways in the brain that deal with the

:29:13.:29:16.

perception of pain and suffering, how they respond to it, having their

:29:17.:29:24.

natural behaviour is prevented and inhibited, and how they respond to

:29:25.:29:30.

incarceration. To claim that these animals are not suffering regularly

:29:31.:29:35.

and chronically is ridiculous, it has been proven, they have elevated

:29:36.:29:40.

levels of stress hormones, and there is another element. When animals are

:29:41.:29:45.

stressed, as animals in laboratories are, this is a fact, it effects

:29:46.:29:53.

their general health, the genes in their bodies. It is

:29:54.:29:57.

counter-productive to the experiment? Of course. You struggle

:29:58.:30:03.

to apply those results to normal monkeys and rats in the wild. A

:30:04.:30:13.

moment ago, Doctor Bailey said they were so different, it would not be

:30:14.:30:17.

scientifically useful, now he says they are so similar... They are

:30:18.:30:22.

similar in the way they suffer and respond to pain. Over time, we have

:30:23.:30:29.

seen so many medical breakthroughs, almost all of the breakthroughs that

:30:30.:30:33.

we see come from animal research. Decades ago, the polio vaccine, the

:30:34.:30:42.

TB vaccine. A lot of research into veterinary medicine. There are other

:30:43.:30:50.

ethical points. In this country, we were allowed to capture primates in

:30:51.:30:57.

the wild, babblings were caught, Newcastle University were in Kenyan,

:30:58.:31:02.

that was exposed, and you stopped it, because it is clearly

:31:03.:31:08.

unethical. As anyone will realise, you have to kill ten to get one. It

:31:09.:31:18.

was outsourced. Newcastle United... I have a one track mind sometimes!

:31:19.:31:24.

Because at University outsourced it, that is what you stop. To get one,

:31:25.:31:31.

you have to kill ten. They fight for their family. That is another

:31:32.:31:36.

ethical issue. That is why we purpose breed animals. The issue of

:31:37.:31:40.

going to Kenyan, the Primate research Centre captures them from

:31:41.:31:50.

the wild, where they are going to be killed as pests. The research worker

:31:51.:31:53.

thought it was better to use an animal that would otherwise have

:31:54.:31:58.

been killed. Why did you stop? There was a change in the policy of the

:31:59.:32:05.

research councils that oversee the funding, and we thought about the

:32:06.:32:09.

animals' experience, and decided it would be better not to do that work

:32:10.:32:15.

with wild caught animals. About the medical breakthroughs having come

:32:16.:32:22.

about from animal testing, it is a legal requirement to test all new

:32:23.:32:26.

drugs on animals, it does not mean it is the best way. The developed --

:32:27.:32:32.

the development process was through animals. Without animals, it would

:32:33.:32:39.

not have come about. We are not spending the money in new

:32:40.:32:44.

technology. You released figures to say that less than 4.036% of all

:32:45.:32:52.

research and develop and funding is on trying to produce alternatives to

:32:53.:32:56.

animal testing, it is inertia and lack of political will which means

:32:57.:32:59.

we have found ourselves in this situation. The lady there. I am a

:33:00.:33:09.

psychology student, we have studied animal studies, the ratio of ethics

:33:10.:33:17.

inducing animal studies. I do not agree with the fact that we can

:33:18.:33:23.

stress out of monkeys to see how their biology develops, but to an

:33:24.:33:29.

extent, a lot of us would not be here if no animal testing was done.

:33:30.:33:32.

It is horrible, it should not be done, certainly not for cosmetic

:33:33.:33:38.

purposes, but some of it has to be done in the initial stages. We all

:33:39.:33:45.

draw different lines. Yes, but at the end of the day, as he said, we

:33:46.:33:51.

choose these animals because of their similarities to us. They feel

:33:52.:34:00.

pain. You are causing another living being pain in doing that. If we have

:34:01.:34:05.

to use them, should recognise that they feel pain, and it is not always

:34:06.:34:14.

going to be a happy life. It was the point that we are looking to use

:34:15.:34:18.

babblings, and you can understand that from a scientific perspective,

:34:19.:34:24.

because the similarities exist, but we then have to look at, why would

:34:25.:34:31.

you use the five-day-old angelfish? If you are talking about only 5%

:34:32.:34:39.

being primates, with their similarities, that would suggest

:34:40.:34:44.

that 95% were animals that have such insignificant similarities that,

:34:45.:34:50.

what could we gain from that? The more these animals are like us, the

:34:51.:34:55.

more useful they are, the more of an ethical problem we have. You said

:34:56.:35:05.

earlier that if chimpanzees are not similar enough, what is? They are

:35:06.:35:10.

still very different. They can be similar in useful ways. For

:35:11.:35:18.

Parkinson's disease, the frontal and temporal lobes are enough. Animals

:35:19.:35:23.

are not humans, we have special cognitive things, notably language,

:35:24.:35:27.

which enable us to reflect on our thought processes. There is

:35:28.:35:33.

increasing evidence about those higher cognitive species having

:35:34.:35:38.

their own forms. An interesting point, some chimpanzees are more

:35:39.:35:45.

intelligent than some human beings. Then, but not and Moore said he and

:35:46.:36:00.

-- and more sentience and cognitive. The experiment being referred to is

:36:01.:36:07.

the chimpanzees' working memory, they can identify where things are.

:36:08.:36:10.

Humans have to think consciously about that. Chimpanzees have that

:36:11.:36:16.

ability automatically. That does not mean it is intelligence, it is a

:36:17.:36:20.

different type of thing. When you see animals moving towards something

:36:21.:36:26.

or away from something, that does not necessarily mean they are

:36:27.:36:29.

feeling fear, they are showing a response. Fear is a uniquely human

:36:30.:36:35.

emotion. It depends whether you define it according to behaviour

:36:36.:36:42.

or... Dolphins, elephants, chimpanzees, research coming out...

:36:43.:36:46.

You can see when animals are distressed. If you are going to use

:36:47.:36:52.

them, you have to use the absolute minimum amount. We are talking about

:36:53.:37:02.

how close to humans the animals are, if we are torturing animals, how

:37:03.:37:07.

human are we? That is emotive language, you are right,

:37:08.:37:43.

stop people doing it. Animal testing will not stop tomorrow. Anybody who

:37:44.:37:45.

has taken a dog or a cat to the vet will no that animals fear things.

:37:46.:37:52.

That is nonsense. Something cannot be ethically defensible that is not

:37:53.:37:58.

scientifically defensible. We cannot say it is OK to test on animals when

:37:59.:38:03.

scientifically it is not OK. I would like to briefly run through some of

:38:04.:38:08.

the things that we have found. Chimpanzees use in America. Despite

:38:09.:38:12.

the citrus claims from those who use them that medical research would

:38:13.:38:19.

fail. It stopped based on the evidence we gathered, that 100 AIDS

:38:20.:38:25.

vaccines have been tested on chimps and did not work in people. In

:38:26.:38:30.

animals, well over 1000/ treatment. They do not work in humans. If you

:38:31.:38:37.

stop it, and get outsourced to countries who do not have any

:38:38.:38:42.

standards or regulations. Primates, there is a growing one in China,

:38:43.:38:45.

they are disappearing into laboratories. I am looking at this

:38:46.:38:51.

from a human perspective, where are we going to get tools and

:38:52.:38:55.

treatments? The pharmaceutical industry will tell you they are in

:38:56.:39:00.

serious trouble, they are so reliant on animal testing. 19 out of 20

:39:01.:39:05.

drugs that look good in animals do not work in people, even some of the

:39:06.:39:10.

ones that make it on later removed. We are still looking for clues for

:39:11.:39:16.

cancer, we need an AIDS vaccine, because animal tests do not work. We

:39:17.:39:23.

do not have a cancer cure, but we have treatments which are pushing up

:39:24.:39:27.

the survival rate, breast cancer has gone from 40% to 75%, testicular

:39:28.:39:32.

cancer even further, next to the research on animals. The law says

:39:33.:39:39.

that if there is another viable method, you must use it. Does that

:39:40.:39:47.

will not apply? Of course. The University over the road, looking at

:39:48.:39:52.

the effect of green tea extract on animals, study people who drink

:39:53.:39:56.

green tea, you can do it. The effect of mint on mice, putting them on a

:39:57.:40:02.

hot plate and seeing how it burns their feet. Studied this on people.

:40:03.:40:10.

We do. You know that animals feel fear. Where we differ with a

:40:11.:40:19.

psychology is, are the animals conscious of their fear in the same

:40:20.:40:22.

way that I am? I can it is about fear. That is why you would not do

:40:23.:40:29.

it on a chimp? Yes, there are differences. I do not claim that

:40:30.:40:33.

Bush do not feel pain, but it is in a different way from other species.

:40:34.:40:40.

Each species has its unique sensation. To go back to this idea

:40:41.:40:43.

about other ways of doing things that scientists are ignoring, as I

:40:44.:40:49.

said at the outset, about 10% of the total medical research in Newcastle

:40:50.:40:53.

has some involvement of animals. We are using patients, human

:40:54.:41:00.

volunteers, the same laboratory that happy controversy about Kenya, it

:41:01.:41:07.

works with people, with volunteers. They do brain slice work, individual

:41:08.:41:11.

cells in a ditch, and try and work out what is happening, but at some

:41:12.:41:16.

stage, you need to go back to the whole animal, and if it is not

:41:17.:41:20.

ethical to make it human, you have to find another approach, which

:41:21.:41:23.

usually involves a laboratory animal. You can join in the debates

:41:24.:41:30.

by logging onto the website. You can follow the link to the online

:41:31.:41:34.

discussion. Or you can tweet. Tell us what you think about our last big

:41:35.:41:40.

Ashton, does religion make you happy? If you would like to be in

:41:41.:41:46.

the audience for a future show, you can e-mail us. Southampton next

:41:47.:41:56.

week, then Glasgow and Bristol. This Thursday has been dubbed

:41:57.:41:59.

International Day of Happiness in support of the UN's humanitarian

:42:00.:42:04.

efforts. If you want to take part, you need to post a video of yourself

:42:05.:42:09.

being happy online. There is a link between religious affiliation and

:42:10.:42:13.

happiness, especially in society is a link between religious affiliation

:42:14.:42:14.

and happiness, especially in societies facing adversity. But does

:42:15.:42:19.

religion make you happy? Does religion make you happy? Does it

:42:20.:42:27.

elevate the quality of your life? We have to understand the difference,

:42:28.:42:31.

we have to separate religion as an institutional organisation... We

:42:32.:42:41.

have to, if we want a mature debate. Or else people will take cheap

:42:42.:42:48.

shots. Faith, belief in God. The characteristic that makes a

:42:49.:42:55.

spirituality. I do believe it, I am a Christian, a Catholic Christian,

:42:56.:43:04.

the gospel values which I hold the, they help bring me in connection

:43:05.:43:07.

with other people, through communities, let's say the Church

:43:08.:43:13.

committee, for example, the local parish, something like that. There

:43:14.:43:17.

is an understanding, and responsibility, to be aware of each

:43:18.:43:24.

other. For the happiness side of it, also, I think it is important to

:43:25.:43:28.

understand what happiness means. We can have one side of happiness which

:43:29.:43:32.

is pleasure, which is great, not a problem. But the happiness that I

:43:33.:43:38.

think spirituality can give you, that a real faith can give you, if

:43:39.:43:44.

the deep joy that is spoken about in the Bible and in the gospels

:43:45.:43:45.

particularly. differences. I do not claim that

:43:46.:43:54.

Bush do not feel pain, Some people get fellowship at the golf club.

:43:55.:44:01.

Absolutely. It is not exclusive. So it is a valid cation of your world

:44:02.:44:09.

view, is that what you are talking about, like-mind people? Snow Very

:44:10.:44:11.

much not exclusive. It is that we are all people, we are all human

:44:12.:44:15.

being on this planet and somehow we are connected, and that there is a

:44:16.:44:20.

responsibility to be aware of the other person, particularly the most

:44:21.:44:24.

vulnerable this societies. That's what true gospel values is about.

:44:25.:44:31.

Ronnie Campbell is happier when he is with Ed Miliband than when she

:44:32.:44:39.

with George Osborne. LAUGHTER Aren't you? Well...

:44:40.:44:46.

LAUGHTER Who wouldn't be? Do you understand me? Yes, I do. There is

:44:47.:44:55.

an understanding, there is a connection to in that scenario would

:44:56.:45:06.

be an ideology of society, which is fine. Similar, like-minded. It can

:45:07.:45:15.

be, yes. It is very important to get that distinction between the

:45:16.:45:18.

institution. I'm hammering that home. Hammer it home all you want.

:45:19.:45:26.

There are great schisms at the moment which are causing

:45:27.:45:31.

unhappiness. You are a revert, are you happier now? I am. It is

:45:32.:45:36.

difficult to be happy after that animal experimentation debate. That

:45:37.:45:41.

was well depressing, but no, seriously, it really was

:45:42.:45:46.

heart-breaking. But the Koran, the holy book in which I have faith,

:45:47.:45:54.

says verily in the remembrance of God do hearts find tranquillity. I

:45:55.:46:00.

think from the point of view of a fallible, a finite human being to

:46:01.:46:03.

contemplate, to remember, to remember the Washington who was

:46:04.:46:07.

perfect, who was all-wise, who was almighty, all good, it cheers me um.

:46:08.:46:13.

It cheers you up? Right, so your life has changed hasn't it? You used

:46:14.:46:23.

to drink a lot and so forth. I wasn't a plonky!

:46:24.:46:29.

LAUGHTER But you look back on that time of life and you think, that was

:46:30.:46:37.

all just frivolous nonsense, now I've got something deep in my life,

:46:38.:46:42.

yes? I think Mia hit the nail on the head that there are different types

:46:43.:46:45.

of happiness. Getting smashed on Stella does bring a certain type of

:46:46.:46:50.

happiness. Transient. Transient happiness. Practising my religion

:46:51.:46:56.

and believing in it, that gives me a different type of happiness. I refer

:46:57.:47:04.

the lat tore the former. Although I can still have some worldly

:47:05.:47:09.

pleasures as well, I'm not a hermit. When are you at your happiness? --

:47:10.:47:15.

your happiest? From the point of view of a Muslim, theled with world,

:47:16.:47:21.

even the most mundane affairs, are imbued with meaning. We believe that

:47:22.:47:29.

the whole (Inaudible) is a manifestation of the creative

:47:30.:47:36.

capacity of almighty God. Even making cheese on toast can be a

:47:37.:47:44.

mind-blowing experience, because everything is God in action. So

:47:45.:47:53.

walking through the countryside and looking at the creation of God, as I

:47:54.:48:05.

see it, that's probably when I'm at my happiest. OK. Matt? Exactly as

:48:06.:48:13.

you described it. Religion definitely is statistically

:48:14.:48:18.

associated with being happy. The more adverse circumstances you have,

:48:19.:48:26.

the more effect it has. But not only that, the actual, the religious

:48:27.:48:31.

make-up of the country also has an effect. The more religious is

:48:32.:48:36.

country is overall the greater the effect religion has on your own

:48:37.:48:42.

happiness. Explain that more. The UK... Probably more people are part

:48:43.:48:49.

of that group. Specifically the UK. Fairly secular compared to most

:48:50.:48:53.

countries. Take it - an African nation, people in Africa will get

:48:54.:48:58.

more benefit from that religion than the people in the UK where there is

:48:59.:49:04.

less of a religious nature. That has to be looked at within the context

:49:05.:49:10.

of the socioeconomic status of that country. We are a relatively rich

:49:11.:49:16.

country, our levels of happiness are high compared to other countries. We

:49:17.:49:23.

might reach a ceiling effect. What's interesting is the way it works. One

:49:24.:49:32.

of the ways, like Mia was saying, you are part of a group where you

:49:33.:49:43.

get respect, where people share your values. You have morals and they are

:49:44.:49:53.

shared. We also get personal meaning from life. If for example you are

:49:54.:50:03.

finding it difficult in your life, you are having difficult

:50:04.:50:07.

circumstances, not only does prayer maybe enable you to cope with that

:50:08.:50:13.

but there's a different meaning beyond the materialistic gains that

:50:14.:50:20.

might be there as well. You find this, the things that people pray

:50:21.:50:28.

for change. It is a consolation as well isn't it? It may be a

:50:29.:50:37.

consolation. It is about meaning, having self efficacy. If you are

:50:38.:50:46.

elderly and have lost a partner, you think maybe you'll meet again, not

:50:47.:50:53.

just elderly, it is a huge comfort isn't it? It is the terra management

:50:54.:50:57.

thing... There's a label for everything! There. It is nice to

:50:58.:51:00.

think we might see people afterwards. This might help us deal

:51:01.:51:04.

with that. There are reasons to believeta humans are predisposed to

:51:05.:51:06.

believe in an afterlife without teachings of God. It is honouring

:51:07.:51:09.

the ancestors. I grew up in Northern Ireland. Very religious. I think a

:51:10.:51:11.

lot of the attraction of religion, quite a lot of religions offer

:51:12.:51:15.

redemption and forgiveness. With that you can see why for example

:51:16.:51:20.

somebody with blood on his hands, like Tony Blair, wants to be

:51:21.:51:25.

Catholic, because he feels he can get forgiveness. That's part of the

:51:26.:51:32.

attraction people have for it. But away from that point, which we have

:51:33.:51:36.

debated for, the former Prime Minister, Martin is saying there's a

:51:37.:51:39.

lot of people who are river no-one Northern Ireland. There is sectarian

:51:40.:51:41.

sectarianism... And in the whole world. That's the politics of

:51:42.:51:43.

religion. What we were talking about today is the spirit at of the

:51:44.:51:48.

individual. Can that aid your own happiness. Those people were engaged

:51:49.:51:52.

with their religion and it was making them happy, they wouldn't be

:51:53.:51:58.

going into the politics of each other if they were religion. If they

:51:59.:52:05.

are engageded with the true sense of what the religion is about, not the

:52:06.:52:13.

politics of it. Richard? Without making life of it, if you look at

:52:14.:52:22.

what faith, is people coming together for a common purpose, we

:52:23.:52:31.

are in Newcastle. Thursday morning, the happiness index would be higher

:52:32.:52:38.

if St St James's Park victory on Wednesday was for the home and not

:52:39.:52:43.

the away team. Les? We need to remember what really does bring us

:52:44.:52:48.

happiness. If you look at what the happiness... What brings you

:52:49.:52:53.

happiness as a human? As a humanist, helping other folks. When you

:52:54.:52:59.

analyse it, when you see people in times of distress, you find when

:53:00.:53:07.

they are in real distressful time, off as a bereavement or something,

:53:08.:53:15.

what really brings them happiness, what makes their life worthwhile is

:53:16.:53:20.

the fact that they are able to help people. That is the fundamental

:53:21.:53:22.

thing. APPLAUSE You don't need religion to

:53:23.:53:27.

do that. The man at the back. Good morning. I was brought up a Roman

:53:28.:53:33.

Catholic. I'm now not practising, but I do have a lot of happy

:53:34.:53:41.

memories spent at church as a child. Whether that was my interaction with

:53:42.:53:45.

the religion, my interaction with other people, or my interaction with

:53:46.:53:50.

the holy book, I don't know. However, if it makes happy, meeting

:53:51.:53:57.

everybody once a week... Are you happy now? I don't know. I don't

:53:58.:54:04.

know where that happiness came from, was it the people, with the book or

:54:05.:54:09.

the religion? I don't know. If you are happy doing that once a week or

:54:10.:54:11.

more, and spending time with like-minded people, knock yourself

:54:12.:54:12.

out and go for it. Whatever makes you happy. You, sir. I gave up

:54:13.:54:15.

religion and I've never been happier ever since. Daniel will have a word

:54:16.:54:17.

with you later. He will fail miserably. I've found that the more

:54:18.:54:21.

religious a country, the more suffering is you will see on its

:54:22.:54:25.

streets. That's just a correlation rather than a causative fact. Where

:54:26.:54:30.

there is more suffering people are more likely to be religious rather

:54:31.:54:36.

than religion causing the suffering. That is partly because in those

:54:37.:54:43.

times there are more things that prayer can help you deal with. Is it

:54:44.:54:46.

not that it makes the population more willing to accept their

:54:47.:54:48.

suffering, because they are told they will get their reward in

:54:49.:54:49.

Heaven, so they are more willing to take it more. That could be how the

:54:50.:54:52.

country works but it doesn't mean the country isn't coping. The

:54:53.:54:53.

mechanism by which it works is complicated. You may or may not be

:54:54.:54:55.

happy with that. As a psychologist I'm trying to describe the human

:54:56.:54:57.

phenomenon. When are you at your happiest? Today, meeting you, in

:54:58.:54:57.

Nicky. LAUGHTER While I do appreciate

:54:58.:54:59.

everybody's views and I do think that as a Christian myself religion

:55:00.:55:01.

can make you happier and it is a spiritual journey, but at the same

:55:02.:55:02.

time I think the problems in our modern culture come when people take

:55:03.:55:04.

a political viewpoint on it or go beyond the individual spirit at of

:55:05.:55:06.

it. Then we get huge problems, killings in the name of honour. We

:55:07.:55:07.

get radical people from all religions acting in the wrong way. I

:55:08.:55:09.

think that's wren when it can cause grave unhappiness. I think there was

:55:10.:55:11.

a point you wanted to drum home and that is the point. It is when people

:55:12.:55:13.

make the religion itself their God. Religion is there as a structure to

:55:14.:55:15.

help you manifest your faith. How would you change that? I did agree

:55:16.:55:17.

with what you said earlier about helping people. As a humanist that

:55:18.:55:19.

would be very important to you. As a Christian that's fundamental to me.

:55:20.:55:20.

To gospel values. You only have to look at what's happening now,

:55:21.:55:23.

particularly in the Catholic Church with Pope Francis, who is

:55:24.:55:27.

rejuvenating the Catholic Church because he is bringing it back to

:55:28.:55:33.

what the gospel values are all about. He's keeping it real is he?

:55:34.:55:39.

Yes. What happens in many religious groups, they tend to focus on

:55:40.:55:44.

helping their own. That's not to say they don't help nonreligious groups,

:55:45.:55:48.

but there is a certain element of it. It is quite strong, particularly

:55:49.:55:57.

in the Muslim faith, I also work with Save the Children. It is a

:55:58.:56:03.

secular charity. But when we are fundraising we have to identify

:56:04.:56:10.

certain project projects for Muslim donors. Because they insist that if

:56:11.:56:14.

money is going to be used it should be used for Muslims. So you are in

:56:15.:56:22.

an in-group it excludes the out-group? It can do. The I think

:56:23.:56:27.

you are trying to separate the politics of religion and the spirit

:56:28.:56:30.

at of religion but I don't think you really have a choice in modern

:56:31.:56:34.

religions today. I think that's is very frustrating and that doesn't

:56:35.:56:39.

make you happy. Daniel? Sorry, but I really don't want to let Les get

:56:40.:56:44.

away with that. It is just a load of rubbish, the idea that Muslims or

:56:45.:56:49.

people of any other religion only done to causes that are going to

:56:50.:56:54.

benefit people of their faith. He said that can be the case? But it's

:56:55.:56:58.

not the norm. I can say that as someone who is very much part of the

:56:59.:57:02.

Muslim community. I've seen with my own eyes Muslims raising money for

:57:03.:57:07.

charities which supersede all religions are, things like Marie

:57:08.:57:10.

Curie. It is not just Muslims who get cancer. Actually the evidence

:57:11.:57:15.

shows that although religious people do give more to charity, they give

:57:16.:57:19.

more to charity specifically to ones associated with their faith. They do

:57:20.:57:25.

favour and buy answer-group charities. If you see someone on the

:57:26.:57:31.

TV who looks like your own mother or father suffering is, that will

:57:32.:57:36.

probably strike a chord within you to donate rather than someone who

:57:37.:57:40.

looks very much different and might not strike a chord. If you turned on

:57:41.:57:49.

the television and sea someone like him, would you donate? I'm

:57:50.:57:54.

initiativing nothing to anybody! LAUGHTER I like the idea of religion

:57:55.:57:59.

and faith, but why do so many organised religions, why are these

:58:00.:58:05.

divisions causing all these trouble? Pope Francis knows it is not about

:58:06.:58:09.

the religion but the faith. Why are there divisions? Personal spirit at,

:58:10.:58:17.

your own beliefs? Thank you all very much for taking part. .

:58:18.:58:22.

As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter. Next week

:58:23.:58:25.

we're in Southampton, so join us then. But for now, goodbye. Have a

:58:26.:58:27.

great Sunday.

:58:28.:58:32.

Nicky Campbell presents live moral, ethical and religious debates from Northumbria Students' Union in Newcastle upon Tyne.

Has trade unionism had its day?

Is animal testing ever justified?

And, does religion make you happy?


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