Episode 10 The Big Questions


Episode 10

Nicky Campbell presents live debates. Is it our moral duty to stand up to Russia? Does Clare's law go far enough? Can children be damaged by fundamentalist religions?


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Transcript


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Today on The Big Questions, standing up to Russia, the right to know

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about a partner's violent past, and being the child of a fundamentalist.

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Good morning. I'm Nicky Campbell. Welcome to The Big Questions. Today,

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we are live from Michaelston Community College in Cardiff.

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Welcome to our audience and welcome to everybody! Next Sunday, the

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people of Crimea will vote on whether they want to remain part of

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the Ukraine or to join Russia. In just two weeks, Ukraine has changed

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from being a country about to sign and Association agreement with the

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EU to one which may lose not only Crimea, but also its eastern

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territories to its powerful neighbour. 20 years ago, the UK, the

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USA and Russia are all signed an agreement which guaranteed

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Ukraine's current borders, in return for them giving up nuclear weapons.

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America has sent fighter jets Poland and is talking tough about economic

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sanctions. But some commentators have said it is the worst crisis

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since the end of the Cold War, or since the 1962 Cuban missile crisis,

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or even since Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland in 1938. Our

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government stopped Prince Edward from attending the Paralympics

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opening ceremony in Sochi. They are thinking about placing visa

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restrictions on some of the wealthy Russian oligarchs in large parts of

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London and seizing some of their assets, unless it upsets the City.

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We heard from William Hague on the Andrew Marr programme that

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ultimately, energy may be one of the sanctions considered. Is it our

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moral duty to stand up to Russia? Sir Graham Watson, MEP, you have

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used those words, 1938, in this context. Explain that? I think it is

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our moral duty to stand up to Russia. What is happening is

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equivalent to Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland in 1938. Putin is

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trying to exercise what he considers to be his right to intervene

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militarily in what would once upon a time have been described as

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Russia's sphere of influence. At the world has moved on. You can't do

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that. In doing so, Putin is abrogating a number of agreements,

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not only the Budapest agreement from 1994, but also his commitments to

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the Council of Europe conventions and so on. We must defend the

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Ukrainians. Ukraine is a unitary state, and must be defended. Go in?

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What does that mean? Well, it starts with where we are, what the European

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Union agreed on Thursday, which was that we have already stopped talks

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with Russia towards a new EU- Russia agreement and the talks on visa

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liberalisation. We have said but unless Putin withdraws his troops to

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basis, we will take targeted sanctions against individual

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Russians, which is difficult for Putin to bear, because they hold a

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lot of assets in western Europe and other places. There are lots of very

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wealthy Russians around. Moreover, the European Union has said that if

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Russia destabilises Crimea even further, there will be far reaching

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economic and political consequences. I think it is right not to define

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that to precisely, but it may have to involve military action. Nobody

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wants that. Military action? Nobody wants it. With Russia? What are you

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talking about? This is precisely the question being asked. Can you

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intervene militarily if you have to? If so, how do you do so? Nobody is

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arguing that we are going to fight a ground war against Russia? I hope it

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will not come to that, because I believe we have enough power to

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bring the Russians to the negotiating table without military

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action. Professor Geoffrey Pridham, should all cards be on the table?

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Even military? I agree, that should be the ultimate option. But we

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should try everything else. There are economic sanctions, and also

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propaganda. But in's began the towards the West at the moment is

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pretty hard, and we should respond equally. We need a combination of

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firmness plus diplomacy. The military action is behind all that.

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If all else fails, you can never say you will not use the military

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action, because that gives Putin an extra card to play with. You have

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some support. Jeremy Corbyn, MP, this is worrying. We have a man who

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has basically breached international treaties and moved into another

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country. What my colleague was saying seemed to be a recipe for war

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and incredibly dangerous. I do not support that. You have more support

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than they did. I do not support Russian military action, and that

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does have to be a peace process and the process of demilitarisation of

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Ukraine and sticking to the original non-nuclear agreement. But the

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hypocrisy of the West is unbelievable on this. Where was the

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legality on the war in Iraq? Where was the legality on so many of the

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other interventions made elsewhere? If one reads carefully what all the

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Ukrainian forces are saying, yes, there is a nasty far right force in

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Ukraine at the present time which is part of the government. There is

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also a more live oral grouping in the Ukraine. There is also a large

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Russian grouping in the Ukraine who clearly have loyalties towards

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Russia. Does Ukraine break-up? That is a matter for the Ukrainian

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people. At the idea that we should move the whole thing in rhetoric

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towards a military war against Russia seems to me a disaster. You

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mentioned 1938, Sir Graham, and the Nazis. Jeremy Corbyn makes the point

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that some in the government have been described as Nazis, the Deputy

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Prime Minister included, in Ukraine. These are not nice people to deal

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with, are they? There was a law two years ago to introduce Russian as

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the second official language at a regional level. The new government

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decided to reverse this. That is now regarded as a mistake in having

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provoked Putin. I have a feeling that that was one influence behind

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his action in the Crimea. There are concerns on the Russian side, but

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Putin has nevertheless broken serious international agreements.

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The referendum in Crimea is also illegal. The Ukrainian constitution

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allows referendums across the whole country, not just one region. As to

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the moral arguments here, I think we are in a potential prewar situation.

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It is not just about Crimea, it is about European security in general.

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I have been living in the Baltic states. There is concerned there

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that there could be a threat exploiting the Russian minorities in

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those states. You are just back from Latvia. Are they worried there? Very

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worried. There has been an intense increase in worry over the last ten

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days. The prime minister made a statement that there was no threat

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to Latvian security for the moment, she said. That is unambiguous

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statement. I think we have got ourselves into this problem. Our

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foreign policy has been a mess since the end of the Cold War. Frank Lee,

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the EU, pushing ever eastward since the collapse of the Berlin Wall, we

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have been wooing the Ukrainians to join the EU. Russia thinks we have

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been encouraging the uprising in Ukraine. When that uprising

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happened, it made Russian intervention inevitable. There was

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no way Putin or any Russian leader would allow a major naval base in a

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potential EU member state. There is also no way he would allow a

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successful revolution to happen in Ukraine, on Russia's doorstep, when

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it sets a precedent at home. I take the point about the analogy with

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Hitler, but he is aligning himself with the interests of the Russian

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ethnic people. It puzzles me how the West has been blinded by the

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inevitability of the action that has had. I worry about the potential for

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military conflict, but we have got ourselves in a situation where we

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are hooked on Russian gas and Russian cash. We have been cutting

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our military forces and we are in open session to stand up literally

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to Russia. -- we are in no position to stand up to them. Dealing with

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the situation of the naval base, the Crimea was put into the Ukraine by

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Russia back in 1954 by Khrushchev. The Russians have a lease on that

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naval base until 2047. Ukrainians have said nothing about terminating

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the lease. It is clear that they have the right to use that naval

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base for another 30 years. An Ukraine, I am not sure the European

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Union has been pushing east, but what we have seen in Ukraine,

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Georgia, Armenia and a number of other countries, people have been

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saying, we would like to come closer to the European Union. So is your

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interpretation of pushing east expanding democracy and civic

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society and the rule of law? I would say the Ukrainians have been

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demonstrating in favour of those things, and wanting their own

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government to sign this new partnership that the Georgians and

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Moldovans have signed. It was when Viktor Yanukovych pulled out under

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pressure from Russia last November that there were all the

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demonstrations in Kiev which led to the overthrow of Yanukovych and a

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new government. We have to insist to the Ukrainians that they have free

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and fair elections and elect a new government. But Viktor Yanukovych

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was democratically elected. There was an agreement to have elections

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later this year anyway, and there was a strong argument that the

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removal of Yanukovych was not within the Ukrainian custard you should. Do

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you think it was legitimate? -- it was not within the Ukrainian

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constitution. But the wider issue is that the EU has got very close to

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NATO. NATO has been pushing hard to expand eastwards. Inevitably, Russia

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will get nervous if NATO sets up places around it orders. That

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encourages Russian military is. Can't we go back to the point where

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Ukraine was a nuclear free country that was not going to be a member of

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any alliance, either with Russia or with NATO, and start to demilitarise

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the situation and allow a proper debate for people to decide their

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own future in Ukraine? It seems to me that there is a terrible danger

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of a rush to a combination of an economic and military war, and

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goodness knows what the consequences will be. I welcome to the audience

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in a minute to find out what they think. It is potentially an

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apocalyptic scenario. Jeffrey, do you want to come back 's eye would

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point out that the February 21 agreement that Yanukovych side fell

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flat, because he fled the following day. So that escalated the

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situation. This was a Ukrainian revolution. Putin does not like it,

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but it was a revolution which reacted against Yanukovych. Not just

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against him failing to sign the agreement, but also against his

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corrupt regime. You could see this in the build-up to the crisis. Would

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Baroness Ashton go to Greece and support the opponents of the

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austerity measures there? No, she would not. She is happy to go to

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Ukraine and join a demonstration where there are fascists present in

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order to get rid of an elected government there. You can't have it

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both ways on elected governments. Russia is effect of league -- has

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effectively annexed Crimea. Putin knew that we would half and puff and

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that our hands were empty. Are we weak? Yes, and we have got ourselves

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into that position. We need to get our foreign policy sorted out and be

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clear on our national interests. He has been able to do this because we

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are weak. He has a clear view about where he wants to take Russia. I

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agree, it is scary and nationalistic and expansionist, but we have

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enabled him to do it because we have nothing in our hand except sanctions

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and not inviting him to the G-7. Putin has done this because he is

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weak. It is true that we are weak, and the biggest card Putin has is

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Russian oil and gas and our dangerous dependence on it. I hope

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that if one thing comes out of this, it is that we start to develop

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alternatives. We do a lot of trade with them. We have a lot of energy,

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we have all that Russian money in London and other places. So anything

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we do will be cutting off our nose to spite our face. I would not say

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anything we do, but certain things could of course be damaging to both

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sides. But Putin is increasingly isolated in Russia, and he is

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playing to the gallery back home. He is playing the populist card. I

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would go back to Churchill. In some ways, that interdependency stops us

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fighting. It ought to. It didn't in 1914, and I am surprised that

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parallels are being drawn historically. But one of the

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parallels is not being drawn, which is that with 1914. After 1945, there

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was the creation of an effective international organisation to manage

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crises. I am surprised that we have not heard to work this morning,

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United Nations. -- two words. That is surely where any talk of

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sanctions or international action should be taken place. I am

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surprised that nobody seems to be engaging that organisation, when

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that is what it is there to do. But of course, with Russia's permanent

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place on the Security Council, it cancels itself out. Well, the UN, if

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it takes a one-sided decision, will get vetoed by somebody, so it

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can't. Therefore, it falls to the UN to try to bring the sides together

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and pursue a process of demilitarisation. But I am alarmed

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by the weather NATO general secretary seems to be ramping up the

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anti-all the time . It is not his job to promote wars. He is meant to

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be answerable to a number of governments. He appears to be

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behaving as though he is a free agent who can say and do what he

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likes and develop this dangerous scenario. Ukraine has been a war

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ground in Europe for two centuries. Millions have died from famine, war,

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occupation and disasters. Let's not visit that upon them again . Lest

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try and deescalate and demilitarise and try and bring about some kind of

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peace process which will guarantee a peaceful future for those people and

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for Europe. I don't believe we have the moral legitimacy to intervene. I

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believe throughout history Britain has contributed to terror through

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propping up authoritarian regimes. An example was 1953 when we

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overthrew the Iranian Government. MI6 with the help of the CIA did

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that. Harold Wilson's Government in the '60s help helping General

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Suharto come to power in Indonesia leading to many deaths. And then the

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Iraq war, which even Kofi Annan said was illegal. Even Bam, if you look

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at drone strikes and how that's caused the deaths of hundreds of

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civilians, if you look at the two principles of the patterns of life

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and secondary strikes. This has been documented by Stamford Law

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University. So we have no moral plinth to stand on. Good morning. I

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agree with you and the gentleman there, because I think, as the

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Bishop said, we do have bullies in our world. There've been many

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examples, Saddam Hussein among one of them. I think the trouble with

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our reaction is that there is a knee-jerk reaction by our

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Governments I think every time in these cases. Either they are quiet

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and apathetic and then they do something crazy. I don't think we

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are in a position to judge. Our position is very grave. We are not

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at the front. We are not Latvia, we are not in that region. We intereven

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if with far too many things. None of our business? To a certain degree.

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Sir Graham, you think it is our business very much, but have we just

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lost the moral authority here because of recent years and going

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further back, as that gentleman says, we are in no position to

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judge. I think it is absolutely in our country's interests to uphold

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international law. I don't defend everything that's been done in other

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armed conflicts that have happened recently. I think we have made

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mistakes. We are not the only ones to have made mistakes, the Russians

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have, and others. But here we have a real interest as the United Kingdom

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in upholding international law. What Putin has done is clearly to ride

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roughshod over international law. That's why we have to act. Nobody's

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talking about military intervention. Military intervention would have to

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be a last resort, but my question to Jeremy Corbyn would be this. What do

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you do, try to negotiate by all means, that's what we are trying to

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do, but what if Russia go ahead with this referendum on Sunday in the

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Crimea, a referendum down the barrel of a gun. As Stalin said, power in

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politics is not with those who cast the votes but those who count them.

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The Ukrainians themselves have asked the West to come in and help. In my

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view we should help. You have the last word on this, Jeremy Corbyn.

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And MP is a Hoon -- and Mr Putin has expressed admiration with Josef

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Stalin, one of the biggest mass murderers in history. What if he

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does go through with this? He is a popular Russian leader. Public

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support for Russia isn't easy great as they thinks or a lot of other

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people think. I'm not sure that the Russian people, having lost so many

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in Afghanistan, want to see Russian lives lost in Ukraine any more than

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people in this country want to see us going into a ludicrous futile war

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that has to end up with a political settlement. All wars end with a

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political settlement. Let's not start with the building up of Armed

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Forces, moving fighter pilots to Poland. Negotiate through. The West

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has no moral authority to lecture on this after drone strikes, after

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Iraq, after so many other internal coups and conflicts around the

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world. Hand the thing back to the UN to try to bring about a peace

:21:55.:21:58.

process and de-escalate the rhetoric, which has been in danger

:21:59.:22:02.

of plunging us into a catastrophic war with nuclear implications.

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APPLAUSE Thank you very much indeed. We are debating this morning does

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Clare's law go far enough? And can children be damaged in

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fundamentalist religions? Get tweeting or send us any other ideas

:22:31.:22:34.

or thoughts you may have about the show.

:22:35.:22:40.

This weekend with the launch of Clare's Law which have obtained the

:22:41.:22:43.

right to check with the police if a new partner has previous convictions

:22:44.:22:47.

for violence against women. It is named after Clare Wood, who was

:22:48.:22:51.

strangled and set on fire by a man she had met true the internet.

:22:52.:22:57.

Unbeknown to her he had spent three years in prison for harassing

:22:58.:23:00.

another woman and had previously served six months for breaking a

:23:01.:23:05.

restraining order. Now, any woman has the right to ask whether a man

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who a violent past, but also the police have the right not to tell

:23:10.:23:15.

her all that they know. Does Clare's law go far enough? Morgan, you've

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worked with women who've had terrible experiences in their lives.

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We've seen surveys which are breathtaking, the amount of women in

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our country should have been subject to physical and sexual violence. I

:23:29.:23:32.

saw one survey saying it was one in three. Do you believe it is that

:23:33.:23:38.

widespread? Yes. I think we can see violence against women and girls,

:23:39.:23:41.

and domestic violence is probably the most present component of that

:23:42.:23:48.

violent expression within certainly in Wales. Are the police doing

:23:49.:23:51.

enough? It used to be said, it is just a domestic. Those days are gone

:23:52.:23:55.

aren't they? They are not entirely gone. We do have two different

:23:56.:24:00.

approaches to the law. If a woman is violently attacked by somebody on

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the street, then there are laws in place where that person would be

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arrested if it was a stranger. However, because it happens in our

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private space, if you like, there are different ways of applying that

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law. I have to say though that police, particularly over the last

:24:19.:24:23.

five years, have certainly picked up apace and there's strong leadership

:24:24.:24:28.

from the top to actually kind of take more action and not see

:24:29.:24:32.

domestic violence as a purely domestic issue. So we are making

:24:33.:24:38.

some progress. Some progress. Michael, you've fought for this for

:24:39.:24:43.

your daughter and it is a great achievement and it is a tribute to

:24:44.:24:47.

your dedication and steadfastness that this has come about, but is

:24:48.:24:50.

there still a problem with the police? Well, I would hate to

:24:51.:24:55.

correct you. I didn't do this for my daughter. I couldn't do anything for

:24:56.:24:59.

my daughter. I've done this for girls in the future and in the

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present. What happened to my daughter was tragic. What happens to

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girls in this country, anything between 100 and 150 every year -- 15

:25:10.:25:16.

every year, men and women meet a violent death - 120. They meet a

:25:17.:25:21.

violent death. For every one of those that died there was two people

:25:22.:25:26.

like me, mothers, fathers, I didn't count, brothers, sisters, sons,

:25:27.:25:32.

daughters, beganies, grandfather grandfathers. -- grannies,

:25:33.:25:39.

grandfathers. The ripples fall out. My granddaughter is the biggest

:25:40.:25:44.

loser in this. She is now 15. She's got to go through her life without

:25:45.:25:49.

the arm of her mother round her, without the concern of her mother

:25:50.:25:53.

round her. She's going to have to explain to her children why they

:25:54.:25:58.

don't have a grandma. I didn't do what I have done, I want wanted to

:25:59.:26:05.

trumpet what had happened to my daughter so that people woke up in

:26:06.:26:09.

this country. I don't believe that half the population were getting the

:26:10.:26:13.

support that they deserved. And had it not been for a young lady like

:26:14.:26:22.

Michelle, without hazel Blears or the Bolton coroner, Mrs Leeming.

:26:23.:26:27.

This would have never got off the ground. Does it go far enough

:26:28.:26:33.

though? It is easy enough to get someone's driving licence details.

:26:34.:26:36.

These convictions are a matter of record. These people have been in

:26:37.:26:40.

court. Yes, my sentiments exactly. Where was the secrecy? If it had

:26:41.:26:45.

already been in court and in the papers, why did the police not tell

:26:46.:26:51.

my daughter, he's done this before, get your bum out of here?

:26:52.:26:58.

APPLAUSE Why not? Why not? Why can't you just give

:26:59.:27:03.

this information to people. It is up to Parliament to decide what the

:27:04.:27:06.

rules are. They have had a look at this, they've listened carefully...

:27:07.:27:11.

Well what do you think? Let me explain this first. They've listened

:27:12.:27:18.

carefully to the arguments. Looked at the situation through three pilot

:27:19.:27:22.

schemes and the changes in procedure have come about. There are tests

:27:23.:27:26.

that have to be applied, whether we like it or not. These come from

:27:27.:27:32.

reasonableness and proportion at. That's what the European Convention

:27:33.:27:35.

on Human Rights says. The Government is moving in that field. They have

:27:36.:27:38.

had to make that choice against that background. What they have done is

:27:39.:27:42.

to decide on the basis of these three pilot schemes there can be

:27:43.:27:46.

proportionate releases of information in extreme

:27:47.:27:49.

circumstances. It's a big change in process and procedure. It can take

:27:50.:27:53.

up to 35 days and those could be the most dangerous 35 days of a woman's

:27:54.:27:58.

life. What the rules say clearly is a pressing need. There there is an

:27:59.:28:03.

immediate case conference. One's got to say that on the basis of three

:28:04.:28:08.

pilot schemes, the Home Secretary sanctioned it, if Parliament wants

:28:09.:28:13.

to change the rules around criminal confidentiality, they have to make

:28:14.:28:17.

that choice. Don't give me pressing need. 2006-2009, the head of ACPO

:28:18.:28:28.

and a Chief Constable of Wiltshire did an indopeth survey into domestic

:28:29.:28:34.

violence. I was handed it at my daughter's coroner's inquiry. He had

:28:35.:28:37.

already come to that conclusion. So we are going back eight years to

:28:38.:28:44.

2006 before he started picking up. I got to the Home Secretary, myself

:28:45.:28:51.

and my son, on the Thursday. On the Tuesday, Clare's law was trialed. I

:28:52.:28:56.

was a cherry on the cake. There was a lot of clever people long before I

:28:57.:29:03.

had opened my cakehole to move this on. I was the one - I don't know if

:29:04.:29:09.

it was the nature of my daughter's death, the timing of my daughter's

:29:10.:29:14.

death, but it did something to decide who woke up to the fact that

:29:15.:29:18.

there's domestic violence on a huge scale in this country and it is

:29:19.:29:21.

being swept under the carpet. APPLAUSE Amanda, do you have

:29:22.:29:31.

concerns about this law? How far it could go? I think, the main thing to

:29:32.:29:35.

say is that it is great to have a law that raises the profile of

:29:36.:29:38.

domestic violence, which is such a huge, huge problem. I don't have an

:29:39.:29:42.

issue really with the police's ability the make a disclosure when

:29:43.:29:46.

they deem that there is a significant risk of harm, which they

:29:47.:29:51.

had the power to do before Clare... It is different difficult to

:29:52.:29:56.

calibrate that. It is. They this the power to do that before Clare's law.

:29:57.:30:01.

If we look at the 400 applications made under Clare's law so to date

:30:02.:30:06.

there've been 100 disclosures. The police have determined those

:30:07.:30:09.

individuals plenty a clear risks. There is not a problem with those

:30:10.:30:13.

100 disclosures. It is what we can say about the 300 other cases where

:30:14.:30:18.

the police felt there wasn't enough information to make a determination.

:30:19.:30:23.

We know that domestic violence is hugely underreported. The majority

:30:24.:30:26.

of victims will never tell the police about the violence that they

:30:27.:30:30.

suffer. The cases that do come to police attention are extremely

:30:31.:30:34.

unlikely to result in a conviction. We are asking the police to make a

:30:35.:30:40.

determination on data that is largely absent. We are lulling

:30:41.:30:43.

victims into a false sense of security for that reason. What about

:30:44.:30:57.

those with no convictions? Clare's Law covers that, because it is about

:30:58.:31:01.

instances that have been brought to police attention. A couple of

:31:02.:31:06.

points. Firstly, it is not a change in the law. We call it Clare's Law

:31:07.:31:11.

because it is an emotive term, which is helpful. It is not a change in

:31:12.:31:17.

law, it is a change in procedure which has been given official

:31:18.:31:19.

sanction. And it is not just the police, there is a multi-agency

:31:20.:31:25.

panel that sits behind this. One could argue that they may get this

:31:26.:31:28.

process wrong, but there is a clear process that people go through all

:31:29.:31:32.

stop I just wanted to correct those impressions that might be given if

:31:33.:31:38.

you don't know enough about it. They determined that there was enough

:31:39.:31:42.

information in some cases that they could suggest that there was a risk

:31:43.:31:48.

of harm. I know you mentioned that there were 400 applications and

:31:49.:31:51.

maybe 100 of those were disclosed, but those 400 people who made those

:31:52.:31:57.

applications, whether they were disclosed to or not, they are then

:31:58.:32:01.

passed on information about where to go for support in the future. It is

:32:02.:32:07.

a tool. That is information that those people may not have had if

:32:08.:32:16.

they were not in that situation. What about those people who, in the

:32:17.:32:19.

first flush of love, you have faith in love, isn't the last thing you

:32:20.:32:26.

are going to do decide to run a few checks first? With Clare's Law, it

:32:27.:32:33.

is not about checking up. If somebody starts to show some form of

:32:34.:32:37.

controlling behaviour or violence. Oh, he will change! Or she will.

:32:38.:32:46.

Yes, you can hope he or she will change. But as a campaigner, I do a

:32:47.:32:52.

lot of research with domestic abuse charities. A lot of people signed my

:32:53.:33:02.

petition to get this scheme past. One woman said to me that when she

:33:03.:33:08.

first drug of a relationship with a man -- when she first struck up a

:33:09.:33:11.

relationship with a man, his ex-wife said to her, he hit me, it will not

:33:12.:33:16.

be long before he starts on you. She said, I just thought it was sour

:33:17.:33:22.

grapes. Had this law been in place, she was adamant that at least that

:33:23.:33:25.

would have been a gateway for her to just check. So you will get those

:33:26.:33:30.

who are caught up in love and they do think he will change. But if the

:33:31.:33:39.

police said, he does actually have a record, then you know it is not your

:33:40.:33:42.

fault and this man is a serial perpetrator. But it is not the

:33:43.:33:50.

woman's fault ever. Or the man's fault, it does happen the other day

:33:51.:33:57.

way. Yes, but it is not the victim's four. We need to take a

:33:58.:34:01.

stand against domestic violence . The only way to inoculate people

:34:02.:34:05.

against that is by starting, at an early age in school, really

:34:06.:34:12.

enlightening people about what a healthy relationship looks like,

:34:13.:34:14.

giving them a different lens on the world. I appreciate that raising the

:34:15.:34:22.

Clare's Law scheme is helpful, but once again, you are putting

:34:23.:34:26.

responsibility on the victim to check out, when actually, a huge

:34:27.:34:31.

proportion of the hymns don't even recognise that they are in an

:34:32.:34:39.

abusive relationship. But the way Clare's Law works enables other

:34:40.:34:43.

people to raise the issue with the police as well, so it is not all on

:34:44.:34:51.

the victim. But that requires a public understanding of what

:34:52.:34:53.

domestic is. And I think this change in procedure is a good thing, but it

:34:54.:35:01.

must go wide in hand with other initiatives and support services. We

:35:02.:35:04.

are implementing Clare's Law nationally at the same time that

:35:05.:35:08.

services are being cut. 200 women a day are not being provided with a

:35:09.:35:12.

refuge space when they ask for it. So how can we be implementing a law

:35:13.:35:17.

that is aimed at increasing safety for victims at the same time that

:35:18.:35:20.

services that are known to provide safety are not being given the

:35:21.:35:26.

financial support they need? Some people have said this should be

:35:27.:35:34.

extended beyond sexual and violent abuse to psychological abuse as

:35:35.:35:40.

well. A lot of people say they live with that. So how far do we spread

:35:41.:35:46.

the net? Yes. Well, when we started this off, we did not come across

:35:47.:35:52.

what this young lady has just said, the closure of homes, no

:35:53.:35:58.

after-care. The government seem to have wiped their hands one way or

:35:59.:36:03.

another. And it is serial. It moves on. Everybody seems to think it is a

:36:04.:36:08.

working class disease. It is everywhere. It is rife. For all the

:36:09.:36:15.

people who put up objections, I wear slip on shoes, not because I can't

:36:16.:36:22.

tie a knot. I want to pull them off and say, stand in my shoes for two

:36:23.:36:28.

minutes, and you will know what pain is. You will know what it does to

:36:29.:36:37.

people's lives. I don't sit here and pontificate. There are clever people

:36:38.:36:41.

in this country, contrary to what a lot of us seem to think. There are

:36:42.:36:46.

people in this country who can make this work. What do you think of the

:36:47.:37:00.

psychological abuse angle? It is taken into account. You don't have

:37:01.:37:03.

to wait for a man or woman to use physical violence. So it can just be

:37:04.:37:11.

constant psychological abuse? Yes, if you are feeling intimidated or

:37:12.:37:14.

controlled, that is how domestic abuse darts. But someone is unlikely

:37:15.:37:18.

to have a criminal record for that. At at the same time, if there is

:37:19.:37:24.

nothing to disclose, that person will be given ad vice and help and

:37:25.:37:29.

is alerted to the fact of domestic abuse. One thing everyone has in

:37:30.:37:35.

common here is the fact that we are talking about domestic. That is what

:37:36.:37:39.

Clare's Law has one. It is not the solution, but it has raised the

:37:40.:37:45.

issue of funding and it has got the government talking about it. If it

:37:46.:37:55.

saves one life... If it saves one life, the four year campaign and the

:37:56.:38:02.

team behind Clare's Law have achieved what has been worth all the

:38:03.:38:05.

suffering, all the travelling and all the heartache we have had to go

:38:06.:38:17.

through. The Bishop? In terms of talking about problems like this, it

:38:18.:38:21.

is wonderful that it is out in the open. But you made the point earlier

:38:22.:38:25.

about people wanting to be in a loving relationship. I recall,

:38:26.:38:30.

before I was ordained, when I was in the law, in matrimonial dispute

:38:31.:38:36.

situations, one would sometimes be faced with a battered spouse in the

:38:37.:38:42.

office who would want some sort of immediate relief. And it was

:38:43.:38:45.

possible to go Dwain Chambers and get an emergency injunction and then

:38:46.:38:50.

a couple of days later, there would be a full hearing -- it was possible

:38:51.:38:54.

to go to a chamber. And although this did not happen all the time, I

:38:55.:39:00.

have seen cases several times where at the second hearing, it was

:39:01.:39:08.

usually the wife who had sought the injunction in the first place, and

:39:09.:39:10.

she would say, I have taken him back. He has promised he will not do

:39:11.:39:14.

it again. And then of course, he often did do it again. We are

:39:15.:39:18.

talking about complex human relationships. One of the huge

:39:19.:39:25.

issues we have is that we don't have enough understanding about this

:39:26.:39:31.

behaviour. Should people be given a chance to change? Yes, absolutely.

:39:32.:39:38.

Women who have been affected by violence and abusive relationships

:39:39.:39:43.

need change programmes to help them get back on track and deal with the

:39:44.:39:46.

psychological and emotional damage. And perpetrators also need

:39:47.:39:49.

programmes where they can change their behaviour. There are good ones

:39:50.:40:00.

out there. Michael, I will come to you in the next debate. These social

:40:01.:40:10.

predators slink through our society, spreading despair and despondency.

:40:11.:40:18.

And as has been pointed out here, they are sometimes never picked up.

:40:19.:40:23.

We have a cash cow in this country called the motorist. I can sit in a

:40:24.:40:29.

car and tell you in a second that your car has been road taxed,

:40:30.:40:34.

insured, has its MOT, who the driver and the owner is, and has it been

:40:35.:40:40.

involved in a crime or drugs, in an instant. You want it to be that

:40:41.:40:52.

easy? It should be made that easy. I believe the police have a national

:40:53.:40:56.

computer at present which has 25,000 serial perpetrators on their books.

:40:57.:41:02.

If that could be expanded, that would and so a lot of the questions

:41:03.:41:08.

here. -- it would answer a lot of questions. It is not always to

:41:09.:41:11.

remove the woman out of the violent situation, it is to take the man out

:41:12.:41:18.

of the violent situation. Thank you all for your thoughts.

:41:19.:41:25.

You can join in all this morning's debates by logging onto the

:41:26.:41:37.

website. Or you can tweet. Tell us what you think about our last big

:41:38.:41:43.

question. Can children be damaged in fundamentalist religions? If you you

:41:44.:41:47.

would like to be in the audience at a future show, you can e-mail us. We

:41:48.:41:53.

will be in Newcastle upon Tyne next week, Southampton on March the 23rd

:41:54.:42:01.

and Glasgow the week after that. The mayor of London, Boris Johnson,

:42:02.:42:04.

has called for Muslim children who are at risk of being radicalised

:42:05.:42:08.

their parents to be taken into care. He says it is a form of child

:42:09.:42:15.

abuse. Now a jihadist plot run by fundamentalist Muslims to take over

:42:16.:42:19.

schools in Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester and run them according to

:42:20.:42:23.

strict Islamic principles has been exposed. In the past, the courts

:42:24.:42:27.

have barred a Christian couple from being foster parents cos of their

:42:28.:42:33.

biblical views on homosexuality, and on this programme, we often have

:42:34.:42:36.

under mentalist believers who reject scientifically accepted ideas and

:42:37.:42:41.

think wives should always submit to their husbands full up religious

:42:42.:42:46.

beliefs and modern liberal values are often in conflict. Can children

:42:47.:42:50.

be damaged by fundamentalist religions? Jonny Scaramanga, you

:42:51.:42:56.

were educated in a fundamentalist school. What were you taught? I was

:42:57.:43:00.

taught that I should not be friends with non-Christians. The first week

:43:01.:43:03.

I was there, the principal of the school taught us a sermon which

:43:04.:43:07.

said, birds of a feather must flock together. She said I should not be

:43:08.:43:15.

friends with non-Christians. And hell? Of course. We did not even

:43:16.:43:21.

need to talk about how, because it did for granted that everyone who

:43:22.:43:24.

did not believe what we believed was going to hell. But because those

:43:25.:43:30.

people were going to hell and they were evil and that there was a risk

:43:31.:43:33.

that they could corrupt as if we interacted with them, we were

:43:34.:43:39.

advised not to have interaction with other people. We were also taught at

:43:40.:43:44.

we ourselves were wicked because we were depraved because of sin, and it

:43:45.:43:49.

was only because of Jesus in us that there was anything good enough at

:43:50.:43:54.

all. It is a crushing thing to tell a child in terms of their

:43:55.:43:59.

self-esteem. You are an evangelical Christian, Liz. You don't believe

:44:00.:44:04.

that dinosaurs and people were on the earth at the same time, although

:44:05.:44:08.

some people do. But that is bonkers, and it will limit their

:44:09.:44:11.

career opportunities, clearly! But hell is important to your belief,

:44:12.:44:15.

isn't it? What would you teach a child? That it exists. And who is

:44:16.:44:25.

going there? Anybody who hasn't put their faith in Jesus and his death

:44:26.:44:30.

on the cross to pay for their sins. It is important to understand the

:44:31.:44:35.

difference between guidance and coercion. You have already said that

:44:36.:44:42.

Mustafa is going to hell. And me. You can go the Heaven and it is your

:44:43.:44:47.

choice if you decide to reject it. But you have to accept Jesus? I

:44:48.:44:59.

have. That's fine. I I'll see you in hell then. It is an interesting

:45:00.:45:07.

question, the fundamentalist regime. Isn't it tyrannical and bullying and

:45:08.:45:11.

frightening to tell a little child they might go to hell? No, that's

:45:12.:45:16.

twisting the story. My parents didn't tell me, you're going to go

:45:17.:45:20.

to hell if you don't do this, that and the other. They explained Jesus'

:45:21.:45:27.

and God's love by sending Jesus. This is a perverting idea of love if

:45:28.:45:34.

you think God would send people to eternal damnation. It is not

:45:35.:45:36.

possible. APPLAUSE Is it damaging for a child?

:45:37.:45:42.

Why is that damaging for a child? If you believe thaw know that other

:45:43.:45:45.

people are going to hell, it is impossible for you to treat them

:45:46.:45:48.

with the value and respect that they deserve as human being. If you think

:45:49.:45:53.

I'm depraved because of sin, you can't seriously say I'm worth as

:45:54.:45:57.

much as you. We are all in the same boat. If you look at the way we

:45:58.:46:02.

treat God, disrespect that we create the creator of the universe, one

:46:03.:46:07.

that rightfully owns everything and the disrespect we have for him, it

:46:08.:46:11.

is understandable. God gave us free will and choice. He did. And we to

:46:12.:46:16.

pave our own way to whatever waits beyond. Some of us believe there is

:46:17.:46:21.

something and others believe that it is a permanent cycle. And some of us

:46:22.:46:28.

believe nothing, none of the above. I'm not really worried about hell.

:46:29.:46:32.

This isn't a debate about hell - we've had that before. This is a

:46:33.:46:36.

debate about what we teach our children and potentially how

:46:37.:46:40.

damaging that might be. Bishop? What about those who take a literal view

:46:41.:46:47.

of the Bible, and indeed the Koran, unmediated word of God, allegedly.

:46:48.:46:52.

Could that be dangerous for children? It worries me immensely. I

:46:53.:46:57.

believe that young people, older people, all need to be in a position

:46:58.:47:01.

where they are properly educated to be able to make inform informed

:47:02.:47:05.

choices about any belief structure that might be presented to them. You

:47:06.:47:09.

only have to look at the history of the presents day to see where

:47:10.:47:13.

fundamentalism can actually lead people.

:47:14.:47:19.

APPLAUSE Before I come to you, what would you teach a child, since we

:47:20.:47:27.

are here, about hell? I can speak of my own experience, not of hell but

:47:28.:47:33.

my own education. I was taught just precomprehensive days in a state

:47:34.:47:37.

grammar school. I was taught religious education but somebody who

:47:38.:47:40.

I suppose nowadays would be described as a fairly fundamentalist

:47:41.:47:46.

conservative evangelical Baptist Minister from the Welsh valleys.

:47:47.:47:51.

Along with just about everybody else in my class I rejected what was

:47:52.:47:55.

teaching, which was there's the Bible, you swallow it hook, line and

:47:56.:48:00.

sinker. You take it as a literal word of God and if you don't

:48:01.:48:04.

believe, that you know where you will finish up. Really? But look

:48:05.:48:10.

what happened to me. I happened to believe that, I don't want to trade

:48:11.:48:14.

verses of scripture with people, but one of the things that is most

:48:15.:48:18.

important, Jesus said, if you have seen me, you've seen the Father. You

:48:19.:48:22.

judge your understanding of God by what you see in the ministry and the

:48:23.:48:30.

outreach and the welcome of Him. I don't see Him being as black and

:48:31.:48:37.

white as some fundamentalists might put it. Scripture in parts might

:48:38.:48:41.

have been written in that way because that was the cultural way it

:48:42.:48:47.

was done then. But to force feed and indoctrinate young children with

:48:48.:48:52.

some of the rubbish, quite frankly, that Christian education produces is

:48:53.:49:00.

wicked. Mustafa, as we were breaking bread before the programme, having a

:49:01.:49:06.

cuppa, you said that for example this phrase, homosexuality is

:49:07.:49:12.

un-Islamic. Well, before coming... No, you come to it. How would you

:49:13.:49:18.

teach, what would you teach a child, a young teenager who came to you and

:49:19.:49:23.

said, I'm gay, what should I do, what would you say to that child? I

:49:24.:49:27.

would talk to him about his feelings. Sometimes it is a normal

:49:28.:49:31.

thing for teenage terse, especially when they go through the hormone

:49:32.:49:38.

hormonal phases to feel a sense of, I'm homosexual. I could explain

:49:39.:49:42.

psychological literature and it could be caused by different

:49:43.:49:46.

hormones from their body. They are not understanding yet what they are

:49:47.:49:50.

feeling, they are exploring their identity. I would talk to young boy

:49:51.:49:56.

about his feelings. I wouldn't say OK, be homosexual. I wouldn't say,

:49:57.:50:01.

you're banned. What I believe in terms of homosexuality and

:50:02.:50:04.

heterosexuality is that heterosexuality is something that

:50:05.:50:09.

God wants us to be heterosexuals. That's my belief. I would promote

:50:10.:50:15.

that. To that child. But I would want to do that with the utmost

:50:16.:50:20.

respect for his feelings and for what he feels and the stage he is

:50:21.:50:24.

going through and for his identity and the difficult phases that he

:50:25.:50:30.

might feel. Why did God create homosexuals? I believe God creates

:50:31.:50:36.

human being. I don't believe God creates homosexuals or anybody else.

:50:37.:50:39.

They are human being that have chosen a certain path. A certainly

:50:40.:50:44.

sexual orientation. Just like me, I can choose to be a heterosexual.

:50:45.:50:49.

That's my belief. And somebody can choose to go down another path. When

:50:50.:50:55.

did you choose to be straight? When I was young. I believe that. You had

:50:56.:51:00.

the choice to be a homosexual and straight? On that point, hands up

:51:01.:51:04.

who wants to say something about this? I heard a Murray across the

:51:05.:51:12.

audience -- murmur. It is patronising for Christians or anyone

:51:13.:51:16.

of religious belief to say, we'll talk to people, we'll talk them out

:51:17.:51:20.

of it. If you change your way maybe we'll accept you. If you speak to

:51:21.:51:24.

some people, they will say the most difficult thing I've had to do is

:51:25.:51:29.

admit that I'm gay. Why would I choose to do that?

:51:30.:51:34.

APPLAUSE Anyone else? Anyone else wants to say something? I don't

:51:35.:51:41.

think anybody chooses to be homosexual. It is something you are

:51:42.:51:47.

or you are not. Exactly. Let's get back, how dangerous is it to teach a

:51:48.:51:53.

child that? I think it is very dangerous to teach children that

:51:54.:51:57.

you'll go to hell if you misbehave. The way a lot of religions seem to

:51:58.:52:03.

try and teach morality is it doesn't matter what you do as long as you

:52:04.:52:07.

accept Jesus you will go to heavy no-one the end. It is far more

:52:08.:52:11.

important to teach children the difference between what's right and

:52:12.:52:15.

what's wrong. I'm a humanist, so I believe that we should treat other

:52:16.:52:21.

people with respect. But that morals of society, if you like, are things

:52:22.:52:26.

which have evolved over time. They've not been thrust upon us by

:52:27.:52:31.

some imaginary figure in the sky. I think teaching people how to behave

:52:32.:52:37.

is far more important than saying, do what you but if you accept Jesus

:52:38.:52:42.

you will go to heavy no-one the end. Mustafa? I think it is very

:52:43.:52:46.

important to realise that parenting in itself is always about norms and

:52:47.:52:50.

values, even if you don't have a religion or whatever you believe you

:52:51.:52:56.

are teaching in a sense consciously or unconsciously that belief to your

:52:57.:53:00.

child. If it is for example, the gentleman before said OK I don't

:53:01.:53:04.

believe you should talk someone out of it, I believe he wants to talk me

:53:05.:53:08.

out of talking someone else out of something, because he doesn't agree

:53:09.:53:12.

with my view on things. So he is wanting to talk me out by having

:53:13.:53:17.

this debate or presenting his argumentation, which is fine. With

:53:18.:53:21.

all due respect it is fine, that's why we are here, why we are

:53:22.:53:26.

discussing. I don't think it is in a sense important to understand the

:53:27.:53:29.

perspective where someone comes from. You come from the perspective

:53:30.:53:34.

that teaching hell or saying that if you misbehave you will go to hell,

:53:35.:53:38.

which I don't agree with that way of teaching the by the way, but you

:53:39.:53:42.

disagree with that so you want to talk me out of it. Or you want to

:53:43.:53:47.

teach that view to your child. So you think he's an extremist. Mehdi,

:53:48.:53:53.

you left Islam didn't you? I. About teaching our kids, it is very

:53:54.:53:58.

selfish of us to think that our children are just our assets. I

:53:59.:54:05.

personally think our kids belong to themselves and society.

:54:06.:54:10.

APPLAUSE What land to you then? When did you have this reverse

:54:11.:54:21.

revelation? I was born in Iran. My family had a liberal and moderate

:54:22.:54:29.

background, I had to go tota... If you stood up and said, I'm an

:54:30.:54:35.

atheist? I would be prosecuted and not be classed as a citizen in my

:54:36.:54:39.

own country. I would get death threats. I'm taking a risk to talk

:54:40.:54:43.

to you about my past. As I went to school, I was taught to be

:54:44.:54:49.

religious. As a child I believed whatever they told me. I used to get

:54:50.:54:57.

beaten in school for not practising Islam and dodging prayers. At some

:54:58.:55:03.

point in my life I realised I was so fundamental I was telling my parents

:55:04.:55:07.

and my family and my friends off about not practising the religion. I

:55:08.:55:12.

was, I went so far that I was planning, I was just thinking that

:55:13.:55:17.

dying and killing for my own religion is a good practice. I

:55:18.:55:25.

should do anything necessarily to save my religion. There was points,

:55:26.:55:33.

I can remember that me and my cousins were even planning to kill

:55:34.:55:43.

someone after the fatwa -- killing Salman Rushdie after the fatwa. I

:55:44.:55:48.

grew out of it and I became so sceptic. Are you scared to say this

:55:49.:55:53.

now? You said at the beginning this is still quite a big thing for you

:55:54.:55:57.

to say. It is a big deal but I'm not scared. I just believe what is

:55:58.:56:04.

right. I need to say, I need to make people understand what's gone

:56:05.:56:07.

through my life and what's happened to me and what is happening to other

:56:08.:56:12.

kids in religious countries. It stays with people a long time

:56:13.:56:18.

doesn't it? Absolutely. It can damage... Johnny? It took me about

:56:19.:56:24.

ten years to find my way out of it and gradually realising that things

:56:25.:56:27.

that I have been taught weren't true, and to get over the fact I

:56:28.:56:31.

have been taught to accept what authority told me unquestioningly.

:56:32.:56:37.

Your critical thinking skills get hammered because so many of the

:56:38.:56:42.

teachings in fundamentalist Christianity, particularly those

:56:43.:56:46.

that reject eve Luke, they are so illogical and you are taught this is

:56:47.:56:50.

a good way to think, to disregard the evidence that disagrees with

:56:51.:56:56.

your religion, and it encourages conspiracy theories and an

:56:57.:57:00.

irrational too much to the evidence. I know Liz you would feel I'm

:57:01.:57:04.

presenting a perverted version of Christianity, that what I think

:57:05.:57:09.

about is not what you read, but what's fascinating about this is

:57:10.:57:16.

what you believe is totally true biblical Christianity. We would both

:57:17.:57:20.

have said we are taking the world of God and yet come to different

:57:21.:57:25.

conclusions. It makes a mockery of it. It is all about context. The

:57:26.:57:30.

question isn't so much that isn't it the beliefs that are the problem,

:57:31.:57:33.

but good or bad parenting. You can have good or bad parents in whatever

:57:34.:57:39.

background. They could be alcoholic, get divorced or take drugs. Larkin

:57:40.:57:45.

said they mess you up, your mum and dad. I'm paraphrasing. If you coerce

:57:46.:57:53.

your children it harms them. My parents taught me to use my powers

:57:54.:57:57.

of critical thinking, to question everything. I have had a very good

:57:58.:58:03.

education, I'm belowsed in that way. -- I'm blessed in that way. I've

:58:04.:58:06.

decided that the evidence fits best with the account of the Bible. In

:58:07.:58:15.

which case you will Joan me in condemning accelerated Christian

:58:16.:58:20.

education. Definitely. Consensus. The debates will continue online and

:58:21.:58:25.

on Twitter. Next week we are in Newcastle upon Tyne. For now it is

:58:26.:58:31.

goodbye, enjoy your Sunday. Thank you for watching The Big Questions.

:58:32.:58:34.

Nicky Campbell presents live moral, ethical and religious debates from Michaelston Community College in Cardiff.

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