Episode 17 The Big Questions


Episode 17

Nicky Campbell debates these big questions: Are zero-hour contracts ethical? Is the Church of England institutionally racist? Do fathers do their fair share?


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Transcript


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Today, 0-hour contracts, racism in the church, and shirking dads.

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Yes, good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell. Today, we are live from

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Goldsmiths University of London, welcome, to the big questions.

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Zero-hour contracts are when you sign up to work for a company but

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that employer has no obligation to offer you any hours. They are common

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in retail, catering and tourism. Buckingham Palace uses them. Many

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workers like the flexibility, especially students who work for a

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little bit extra. Many cannot make ends meet when they have no idea how

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much money they are going to earn each week. Refusing at zero-hour

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contract could lose you state benefits. Are they ethical?

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Christian May from the Institute of directors. Some say there are more

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here than ever before, is this flexibility or is it exploitation?

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It is definitely flexibility. The numbers involved have been up for

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debate in the last couple of months. numbers involved have been up for

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debate in the The Office for National Statistics, who have done

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the most recent analysis of the Labour market, have said there are

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1.4 million such contracts in use. That is not to be confused with 1.4

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million people on these contracts because people will have more than

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one, sometimes they might have won and they will be dormant. It is

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important to keep in perspective, we are talking about 5% of the Labour

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market, and within that, we know that 65% of people on such

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arrangements say that they have high job satisfaction. 60% say they value

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the flexibility to such an extent that they would rather not work in

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different conditions. Both of those statistics are a little bit higher

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when you ask the question of people in overall employment. The

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flexibility, valuable to businesses and employers, but also not to

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forget there are a lot of people whose lifestyle means these

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contracts suit them. I think recognising that flexibility is

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important, but so is clamping down on areas where they are not used

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properly. Not making them exclusive. Would it not be better to have a

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short-term contract? What about the situation where you're waiting for

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the phone call, you cannot work, you are incredibly paranoid. You have

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hit the nail on the head. It is the flexibility of saying you cannot

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work tomorrow, you will work on Saturday. Will you get that call?

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80% of people have said they have never been penalised if they have

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not been able to take the work offered. That is important. One of

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the issues about this is the way it has been hitched to the political

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and social debate about the nature of recovery and employment. It is

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often thrown out when people are talking about the economic recovery.

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They will just chuck in 0-hour contracts as reason why it is going

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wrong. Labour are not 1 million miles away from the government or

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the Institute of directors. We are very active, we do not support

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exclusivity contracts, we think they need to be flexible. If you are

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saying you cannot work for other people at the same time, you have no

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flexibility. When you get them right, they are incredibly valuable.

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Owen Jones. S nobody is arguing against flexibility. The problem is

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they give flexibility to the employer and in flexibility to the

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employee. In other countries they have ways of providing flexibility.

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S in the Netherlands and Belgium, employees can negotiate fewer

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working hours. The problem is there is a return to Victorian ages, when

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doctors would stick their hands up hoping to get work. These days, I

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meet young people who get up at 6am waiting to get a text message if

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they have any hours. Firstly, the large majority of people on

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zero-hour contracts are below the living wage. The Office for National

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Statistics show that those on temporary contracts have far lower

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levels of well-being than those on permanent contracts. That is often

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not the case. It is the case. The other point is you can be on call

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all day, from 9am until last thing at night, when you only have 20 set

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hours that week. You have an exclusivity clause, you cannot work

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for other employers during that period. It is very hard to claim

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work benefits. It has to be seen as part of a general trend of stripping

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security from the workplace. We have seen the growth of self-employment,

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it is often unemployment. It happened to my dad.

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it is often unemployment. It people are on very low wages, they

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do not have pension rights, leave rights, redundancy pay. So it

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do not have pension rights, leave trampling on workers rights. S let

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us have flexibility but not at the of this in Europe. Come back on

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this. 80% of these people have never been sanctioned. We know this

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because the report we are referring to says 60% of people value the

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worklife balance whereas if you ask them across general employment that

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slipped to 58%. If we are talking about this as if these are a symptom

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of a Dickensian workplace, it is simply not the case. Demographics

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mean the workforce is changing, so this example, I will say one

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circumstance whether can be two scenarios. -- where there can be.

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Older people, younger people going back into work, you could say that

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is a symptom of people taking more ownership of their Labour and

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responding to a change in the workforce and people having more

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than one job, or you can say it is a symptom of an insecure environment.

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The truth is it is somewhere between the two. Often you cannot get a job

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because of exclusivity clauses. They are used in only very rare

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circumstances and we are against them. You run a company, there you

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are. How useful are these for you? We have about 200 engineers

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travelling round London, and we use them for our engineers, and they

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suit us and the engineers. Why do they suit the engineers? They make

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plans around, looking after kids during the day, some of them will

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want to work different schedules, so we will meet with them at the

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beginning of the month and work out the times they want to work during

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that month, then we will map that out and work it in with our

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schedules, so it suits both sides. If you take it to an extreme and you

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say there are exclusivity clauses and no protections, then yes,

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certainly zero-hour contracts should not be handled that way. Do they

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have a concern if they cannot do the work that day? You're not getting a

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text message an hour before you're supposed to turn up. It just means

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we have the flexibility at looking at whether cycles, I'm busy we might

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be, so that we can plan the workforce. -- how busy we might be.

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We do not have anyone getting less hours than they want. They are on

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better rate than they would be if they were on full-time. The word

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flexibility is being used a lot, but my question would be, flexibility

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for who? These contracts have been around for many years and in some

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circumstances, they work very well. The problem is when they become the

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norm rather than the exception, and at the organisation I run, we work

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with people on these contracts to help them organise to negotiate

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better rates for themselves, especially at universities where

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they are being used, because increasingly they are being relied

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on as the norm, they do not provide security. They were originally

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designed to be used as a stopgap, to retain employees when you were in

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difficulty. For students, is it a good way to get extra money? If you

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get the hours. That is the key point. If we look at this as an

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ethical question, employment relationship is just that, a

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relationship based on reciprocity. I give you my Labour and I am paid for

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what I do. Zero-hour contracts, if used or abused, break down that

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reciprocity. They leave people open and vulnerable to abuse and in

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situations where they do not know where their income is coming from.

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That is just making sure employers cannot abuse them. So it has a place

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in the market and their need to be controls in place so that people

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cannot abuse it. -- there must be. People talk about it as a great

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social ill. We have members representing small and medium

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businesses and we asked 1000 if they use zero-hour contracts, 10% of them

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said they use 10% of their work on them. If it works, is there a danger

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that employees will be worried that they may no longer be on the job

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role and be moved to zero-hour contracts. It is the other way

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round, people move from zero-hour contracts into the full-time role.

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So it gives them experience. I think these are very useful for students

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because the flexibility allows them to work around the exam schedule,

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and also for working parents, because they can work around looking

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after their kids. Nothing there that you have mentioned could not be

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achieved by other forms of more traditional contracts that would

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guarantee leave and pay. A lot of my friends would not have jobs without

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zero-hour contracts. You can have flexible working arrangements

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without that. On your point, nearly half of people on these contracts

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have been on them for more than two years. They are not a stepping

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stone. They can be. They are not necessarily a stepping stone. The

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other point is this, the Confederation of British industry,

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the voice of bosses in this country, a few years ago published a report

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looking for a flexible workforce, depending on this transient

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workforce. That means stripping people of pension rights, redundancy

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pay, maternity leave, all of those things. They are just really useful.

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Let us have a flexible debate. Good morning, how are you doing? It is

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good we are talking about these contracts but what are we talking

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about? Minimum wage or public sector? I am a nurse, we are always

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short of staff, they come in with a list, I do not do this, I do not do

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that, but at the end of the day, they get paid more than me. Double

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than me. If you look at the other side of the minimum wage, the family

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who depend on this sort of work might just think they do not have

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work today but tomorrow they might work on minimum wage. That does not

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support the family. We're talking about the public sector and the

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private sector. A gentleman on the other side. Read Mac the main

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problem is there is not a lot of security with the job, really. --

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the main problem. Until that, the problem will be very big. You have

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picked up the baton. The 80% statistics, I know a restaurant

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owner who said they have slipped down the list because they could not

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come in. I'm just saying, exactly, you don't know that. I would not

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trust that 80%. I do, because that is the office of National

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statistics. Cole Moreton has entered the fray. Your statistic tells us

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that one in five people have been penalised for turning down work. I

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don't think that is acceptable, do you? I do not, I am talking about

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the fringe issues, that is the massive bulk. Your other statistics

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said nearly one in ten are on exclusive contracts. I will tell you

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why, they use exclusivity clauses because it might be someone of great

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technical skill, they are used in professions, to protect intellectual

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property, training purposes, it is not always used in low paid work.

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They are also used by employers to avoid the obligations to help people

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with families who need flexible working, legislation brought in

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recently has made employers have to find a way around that. Well... We

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do not support instances where they are used in place of full-time

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employment. I assume you would be against exclusivity clauses. With

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the exception of the instances I have referred to, we think there

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should be a role for them when they can be justified for a very

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particular reason. What I don't understand, I can understand will

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having this -- you having this, getting outside, getting the

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conservatory fixed, but what about the high street stores we have been

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hearing about, chain restaurants, surely they know how many people

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they will need? I would not defend bad practice, you would have to get

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them in here to do so. -- I would not defend that practice. If you

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take Hertz car hire, they say 20% of people they ploy on zero our

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contracts, 20% move into full-time roles -- they employ. It is useful

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not to reduce this to a pantomime villain. If an elderly worsen or a

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person who is retired keeps one foot in the door, that is good for them

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as elderly person -- elderly person. Do you need that flexible T?

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It can't really be generalised, what about single-parent families and

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people who rely on these hours, how are they going to feed their family

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and support their families? It is not very generous. Do we need to

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make sure there are four per regulations in place? Minimum hours

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and certain rights? -- proper regulations. I think this habit

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moves away from making it mutually satisfying. It allows companies to

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move away from that. When I was growing up, we were saying there is

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too much power in the workforce, unions are too powerful, it has gone

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completely the other way. I think the point is a good one. It is the

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government's role to set a standard for basic employment rights. Where

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you have situations of zero our contracts that lapse for a period of

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weeks, interrupts employment, they break peoples rights. According to

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Vince Cable, we are competing in a global market with countries where

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there are no rights whatsoever. Do we need to cut our cloth

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accordingly? If we go down that way it is a race to the bottom. It is a

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race to the bottom argument. At the moment we live in a country where

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most people in poverty are in work, they get up in the morning and they

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earn their poverty. That costs a taxpayer in huge amount of money

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because we spend money on in work benefits. It sucks demand out of the

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economy because people can't spend and depend on cheap credit. Wages

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are far lower than most other workers. They don't have security

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week after week if they are on zero our contracts. We are stripping

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week after week if they are on zero the workforce pension rights, paid

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leave, sick days, we should be the workforce pension rights, paid

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arguing for a race to the top to improve and extend workers rights,

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not to drag everyone to the bottom as we are at the moment. Thank you

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very much. APPLAUSE

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Your thoughts on that. You can react on Twitter. Follow the link on our

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website to where you can join the discussion online. We are debating

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live this morning from Goldsmiths University. Is the Church of England

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is usually racist? Are the fathers doing their fair share?

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Love your neighbour as yourself. given to us by Jesus. And possibly

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the hardest to keep. Is it especially shocking when the Church

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of England has to acknowledge there is still racism in its midst?

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Something they first acknowledged in 1987. This week the house of Bishops

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announced it is working on a plan to double the number of minority ethnic

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clergy in senior positions over the next decade. There are currently

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fewer than five. Is the Church of England institutionally racist? Lay

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member of the sea not, Alison Ruoff, is a big problem? -- the General

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Synod. No. Is that the debate over? I think it is blown out of all

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proportion. I think every church... I correct that, not every church is

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as welcoming as they should be but most churches are. But yours is the

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state church, the established church. What has that got to do with

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it? Is it properly reflecting modern society? There is a survey out that

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by 2050, one third of this country not going to be white. You have to

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do something about it, otherwise the Church of England will become

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irrelevant. The Church of England would become irrelevant as far as I

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can see. It might divide over various issues but it is not

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relevant -- the Church of England won't become irrelevant as far as I

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can see. Because it is the established church there is the

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opportunity for the Christian message to go to every house in

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every parish. Whether it does or not is another matter. I think we work

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ourselves up into a frenzy about institutional racism. If you go to a

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church in a village say in the depths of Devon or Norfolk, you

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might not see any people then click minority because simply they don't

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live there. -- of an ethnic minority. If you go to a church in

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central London you will probably see a lot of people of all sorts of

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ethnic minorities, worshipping together and getting on very well.

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We could walk out of the door here and there would be five Pentecostal

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churches that are full to the brim. And that is wonderful. But people

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like to be with their own. We have to remember that. They do. For

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example, if you come from France and you have French neighbours, will you

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tend to be with your French neighbours? Absolutely ludicrous...

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It is true. If you are in central London, Oxford Circus, everybody is

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speaking their own language in their groups. They don't suddenly start

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speaking English. Unless they have to. We need to make a strong

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demarcation between the experience in churches that Alison is talking

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about, what ever parish they may be come and the experience of the

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church, the institution of the church. Alison will know full well,

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in 1985, the faith in the city report came out and one of the

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things that was hidden away in that apostolate clear message to the

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Church of England, -- hidden away in that but was still a clear message,

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people from Africa and Asia are Christians and believers and unless

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you are opening unwelcome to them, you will not engage with them. The

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Church of England has not engaged with them put up the Pentecostal

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church is growing enormously, not just because people want to flock

:22:47.:22:50.

together but because in many cases, when they came, they were not

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welcome in their own church. I know that in my own experiences. My

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parents were not welcomed in Anglican churches so they had to

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splinter off and create their own churches. What did that not welcome

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mean, how did that manifest itself? When we used to go to a church, it

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was staid and dry and boring. The preacher would say something, people

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like performing seals, they would clap every now and then, there was

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no interaction. There was no joy, no spirit, you couldn't read the

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emotive. My mother always says, if you go to church and the preacher

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doesn't move you with the word, he is not doing his job. There is joy

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and pleasure in the Anglican Church, you just got the wrong one.

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Maybe as a child I was continually exposed to the wrong one. Maybe you

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should go to one of the services, let your hair down. I haven't got

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long enough hair! Alison says people like to be with their own. Is that

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Christianity? The Christian faith has a powerful vision of people of

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every tribe gathering together in worship. The failure of the Church

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of England is that is not exhibited with sufficient enthusiasm, energy,

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vigour, because plans are not made to make it that way. Institutional

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racism means... There needs to be a conscious effort.

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It is not true, we live in this hugely diverse city, London. In

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Britain we have some of the highest levels of mixed race Thracian chips

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on the face of the earth. People in this city and elsewhere, they lived

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together, they work together, they even sleep together in some cases,

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they are setting up families, they are living together. If the church

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is going to die it will be because of people like you. One in seven

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people are going to a religious service. Do you go to church? I

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don't. How do you know? I will turn that on its head, why are so few

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people going to churches? My daughter goes to a church that is

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not an anger can church. She goes to Hill song from Australia -- not an

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Anglican church. On Easter Sunday they had 10,000 young people going

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to church. On Good Friday they had 450 young people baptised. You can't

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tell me Christianity is dead. I didn't say it was dead. I said

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people like you will ensure it won't be relevant. I believe young people

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are most welcome in the Church of England. I want to establish

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something. Everybody who goes to church can hear the good news of

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Jesus Christ, that is what I care about. John Root, let's get back to

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it, is the Church of England institutionally racist? Yeah,

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because I think institutional racism isn't just an unkind and nasty to

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people. It is much more subtle and it is the way the institution

:26:25.:26:27.

chooses to operate. Institutions tend to operate in the way that

:26:28.:26:30.

those who lead a comfortable... That is different from the way ordinary

:26:31.:26:34.

white people, certainly ordinary black people feel. There is that

:26:35.:26:41.

exclusion which Les was indicating when he said it was boring and so

:26:42.:26:44.

on, it is not just that people who think that come why people think

:26:45.:26:48.

that. It needs to be an intentional way to change the -- desire to

:26:49.:26:55.

change the way we operate. -- it is not just black people who think

:26:56.:27:02.

that, white people think that. How do we get a situation where there

:27:03.:27:05.

are more black leaders in the Church of England? We have to have the

:27:06.:27:11.

right conversation, every historical cause has a contemporary

:27:12.:27:16.

consequence. We know that the Church of England, Anglican Church, what

:27:17.:27:21.

ever, all of them were involved in slavery. I think only the Quakers

:27:22.:27:25.

were not involved. It doesn't matter if it was a long time ago, think

:27:26.:27:31.

about it in this way. If you are a black person in this congregation

:27:32.:27:34.

and it is more or less all-white and you are in the, it could be

:27:35.:27:40.

all-black with a white vicar, and you

:27:41.:27:44.

all-black with a white vicar, and position because continuously

:27:45.:27:46.

reinforced ruler images, God is white, Jesus is wide, you can never

:27:47.:27:51.

aspired to be God or Jesus, you can walk in Jesus's footsteps but not be

:27:52.:27:56.

like him. These things caused this and because you don't see yourself

:27:57.:28:01.

represented in that picture. Would you be surprised that these people

:28:02.:28:05.

don't put themselves forward for those higher positions? If they are

:28:06.:28:08.

getting treated like that as members of the congregation, what will it be

:28:09.:28:12.

like if they get to the higher echelons? The thing is, the majority

:28:13.:28:22.

of Anglicans in the world are black. The majority are in Africa. And the

:28:23.:28:27.

Church of England needs to learn from that and engage with that and

:28:28.:28:32.

has a problem engaging with that, particularly over the issue of

:28:33.:28:36.

same-sex marriage at the moment. I go to church, I go to lots of

:28:37.:28:41.

churches and I see lots of churches where there are people of mixed race

:28:42.:28:44.

and different colours and different backgrounds. And they are fantastic.

:28:45.:28:50.

The issue of institutional racism, that is not reflected in the house

:28:51.:28:53.

of Bishops and leadership of the church and it is an anomaly and a

:28:54.:28:58.

disgrace. It is a very serious charge if people are saying there is

:28:59.:29:03.

institutional racism. Part of the Christian

:29:04.:29:07.

institutional racism. Part of the mentioned, it is for everybody.

:29:08.:29:10.

institutional racism. Part of the is available for everyone, whatever

:29:11.:29:10.

culture. Perhaps we need is available for everyone, whatever

:29:11.:29:16.

there something in the culture of the Church of England, particularly

:29:17.:29:21.

the leadership, it is not that people are deliberately excluding

:29:22.:29:24.

other people, it is something in the culture which is not attractive. It

:29:25.:29:32.

could be a self-perpetuating elite. It could be and that is true of a

:29:33.:29:35.

lot of organisations, not just the church. You think the church of all

:29:36.:29:40.

organisations would strive to be immune from it? As has already been

:29:41.:29:46.

mentioned, there are churches which are packed with people of allsorts

:29:47.:29:50.

of different races and the question is perhaps to ask them, especially

:29:51.:29:57.

churches with black majorities, where people are praising the Lord,

:29:58.:30:03.

confident in themselves and the gospel in their mission to their

:30:04.:30:09.

particular community, ask them, what is it about the Church of England

:30:10.:30:17.

that doesn't attract you? You are 30 years too late. It is not too late.

:30:18.:30:24.

We were having a discussion upstairs. One of the things we said

:30:25.:30:29.

was in 2007, great inroads were made. Maybe for the wrong reason,

:30:30.:30:32.

because it was the so-called abolition of the slave trade, but I

:30:33.:30:36.

was invited into more churches during that year than I ever have in

:30:37.:30:41.

my life to have these kinds of conversations. At the time I had

:30:42.:30:47.

just published a book, and I spoke about being raised as a

:30:48.:30:52.

Judaeo-Christian child, and how that affected me when I started to look

:30:53.:30:56.

at, on one hand we are encouraged to praise the Lord, everybody is

:30:57.:31:00.

welcome in the house of the Lord, but the Lord did not look like us.

:31:01.:31:05.

If you speak to black people and you say to a lot of them, if they are

:31:06.:31:11.

honest, how do you feel about a white Jesus? How would you feel

:31:12.:31:15.

about a black Jesus? They would invariably say, God has no colour.

:31:16.:31:24.

Jesus was due in Palestine. The point is that is the image that has

:31:25.:31:33.

been ingrained. -- Jesus was a Jew. Hands up on that point. The

:31:34.:31:42.

gentleman at the back. I'm an atheist, and from an organisation

:31:43.:31:53.

called the London Black Atheists. When you look at the character of

:31:54.:31:58.

contemporary religion, more often than not, contained within today's

:31:59.:32:03.

religion is misogyny, sexism, racism. Talking about the Church of

:32:04.:32:12.

England, do you feel from your experience that those things are

:32:13.:32:18.

part of attitudes within the church of England? Yes. They were

:32:19.:32:23.

responsible for partaking in slavery. I am also from the same

:32:24.:32:31.

organisation. People like to stick together.

:32:32.:32:37.

All religions are basically institutionally racist because the

:32:38.:32:45.

moment you have a religion, you have an in group and an outgroup, you

:32:46.:32:58.

have your chosen people. Are you from the Black Atheists? I am not, I

:32:59.:33:04.

was actually baptised in the Church of England but later I changed my

:33:05.:33:10.

mind to not be with them. Where do you worship now? With the Catholic

:33:11.:33:17.

Church. I know they have quite a lot of issues, but I would say the

:33:18.:33:24.

Church of England is this connected from the African Fellowship. --

:33:25.:33:31.

disconnected. Most of the issues that the Africans have in the church

:33:32.:33:38.

are not listened to. Equal marriage and so forth? They do have some

:33:39.:33:42.

strong views in their but they feel the church is unwilling to listen to

:33:43.:33:49.

any of their views. The paradox of having a massive power of the

:33:50.:33:55.

Orthodox Church, but on the matter of feeling excluded and historical

:33:56.:34:03.

reasons, what is your response? I was not around in the middle of the

:34:04.:34:11.

slave trade. Neither was I. We have moved a long way since the time when

:34:12.:34:14.

your parents came to this country, and I think in the 60s, we did not

:34:15.:34:22.

do well in welcoming people from the Caribbean nations, and I apologise

:34:23.:34:25.

for that, but we have learned a lot. I go to a church in white,

:34:26.:34:36.

middle-class area, and our congregation is composed of all

:34:37.:34:39.

sorts of people, and we get on really well. Having said that, we

:34:40.:34:45.

have only got one person of an ethnic minority on the PCC. We have

:34:46.:34:53.

had Asian people on the PCC but they don't want to stand. They don't want

:34:54.:34:56.

the responsibility, they want to do other things. It is not always easy

:34:57.:35:05.

to get people to do these particular jobs. I would love more people to

:35:06.:35:11.

come. Why don't they want more responsibility? I have no idea. This

:35:12.:35:16.

is the kind of conversation you should have. We try to persuade them

:35:17.:35:23.

to join us. If you can go to the default that they don't want to

:35:24.:35:27.

accept the responsibility, that is like when they said the black youth

:35:28.:35:30.

do not want to work because they smoke weed all the time and all this

:35:31.:35:35.

kind of crazy stuff. At the end of the day, you need a clear

:35:36.:35:42.

conversation. I run courses where we interrogate these things, and every

:35:43.:35:45.

time I run this course, I have Christians in their, black, maybe

:35:46.:35:52.

white, and they say they do not have this quality of debate or

:35:53.:35:57.

discussion. People dismiss it because of responsibility. Our

:35:58.:36:05.

famous sociologist said my position is my possession. Is that the

:36:06.:36:10.

problem? Is the problem in the pews or the hierarchy? It is in the

:36:11.:36:20.

nation, in a sense. We are terrified of the phrase institutional racism,

:36:21.:36:25.

but it is endemic because it is a general attitude of superiority, not

:36:26.:36:30.

expecting much from black people. If you listen closely to black people

:36:31.:36:34.

in the Church of England, there is this sense of not being affirmed,

:36:35.:36:41.

welcomed, not in a very overt way at all. It is a subtle way. People I

:36:42.:36:50.

know, they would not say people are racist in the sense that they are

:36:51.:36:54.

told to go away but there is a lack of interest, lack of enthusiasm,

:36:55.:36:56.

lack of readiness to learn which inhibits people. It is ordinary

:36:57.:37:04.

white people not having that zest to learn, to develop, to say, what do

:37:05.:37:11.

these people bring? The lady there, you're married to a clergyman. I am

:37:12.:37:21.

married to John Root. You said you did not want to speak earlier. What

:37:22.:37:27.

has your experience the beans -- what has your experience been? Have

:37:28.:37:32.

you experienced hostility? Yes, it did not come from everyone, but it

:37:33.:37:37.

does exist and you actually need to get to the other person's side.

:37:38.:37:41.

Alison said she does not know why they don't want to take

:37:42.:37:44.

responsibility, that just shows that you don't really understand why. Why

:37:45.:37:54.

did you get that impression? I think it is very important that we need to

:37:55.:37:58.

listen and actually to affirm, and in order to affirm, we need to

:37:59.:38:07.

recognise the gifts we have, we want to use them. It is a problem in

:38:08.:38:17.

society. Look at this panel. We are in London and all of us except for

:38:18.:38:21.

one are white. Look at the lack of black MPs, black journalists, it is

:38:22.:38:28.

a very small minority. There are only two archbishops, one is black

:38:29.:38:36.

and one is white. And after that, there are none. We have not actually

:38:37.:38:41.

developed black British ministers. Look at the numbers of black people

:38:42.:38:47.

compared with white people. There are not that many. It is not about

:38:48.:38:53.

numbers, it is about institutional racism. A telling point is, I don't

:38:54.:38:57.

know why they don't want to get involved. One thing is to talk to

:38:58.:39:03.

people, but the other thing is we need to be open, whether it is in

:39:04.:39:08.

sexist or racist context, we need to be prepared to change and move our

:39:09.:39:12.

institutions to change the way they operate. It is not about saying, why

:39:13.:39:18.

don't you want to take a role in my institution as it is? It is about

:39:19.:39:22.

saying, what is it about this institution that we need to change.

:39:23.:39:29.

This is a church whereby everybody is welcome, it does not matter who

:39:30.:39:33.

they are, what colour. Last word, Andrew. There is a

:39:34.:39:40.

they are, what colour. Last word, in society about participation,

:39:41.:39:41.

volunteering, that is probably in society about participation,

:39:42.:39:47.

case in many institutions, so I think there is a challenge to the

:39:48.:39:53.

case in many institutions, so I a constant challenge in terms of

:39:54.:39:53.

persuading people of all different a constant challenge in terms of

:39:54.:39:58.

types, you could talk about white, working-class men or any other

:39:59.:40:04.

group, in order to encourage people who look at the thing and say,

:40:05.:40:07.

group, in order to encourage people is not me. There is a challenge for

:40:08.:40:12.

that, encouraging participation, that is true of the church and all

:40:13.:40:20.

other organisations. Thank you for that. You can join in the debates on

:40:21.:40:24.

the website. Follow the link to the online discussion. You can tweet as

:40:25.:40:31.

well. Tell us what you think about the last question. Ask others doing

:40:32.:40:39.

their fair share? If you would like to be in the audience you can

:40:40.:40:48.

e-mail. -- Are fathers. We are looking for audiences for Walsall

:40:49.:40:51.

and Brighton. Next week we are back at Goldsmiths with a special edition

:40:52.:40:56.

asking whether the First World War changed Britain for the better.

:40:57.:41:04.

Jeremy Paxman, David Stevenson amongst those taking part. Do join

:41:05.:41:07.

us. Finland, Norway, Sweden, Iceland and

:41:08.:41:17.

Denmark are the best five countries in the world to be a mother,

:41:18.:41:21.

according to a survey this week. The UK came the 26th, people with

:41:22.:41:30.

Belarus -- equal. One factor is even though mothers are the main, they do

:41:31.:41:43.

most of the cooking and housework. 26 equal with Belarus, that is even

:41:44.:41:47.

worse than last night in the Eurovision Song Contest. I'm not

:41:48.:41:53.

surprised at all because men are not pulling their weight. A large study

:41:54.:42:01.

was done in 2012 that found 80% of married women did the majority of

:42:02.:42:05.

the housework and over the last few decades we have not this change. One

:42:06.:42:12.

of the three top reasons why people divorce is neglect, feeling

:42:13.:42:15.

neglected, lack of respect, because it is not the big thing that break a

:42:16.:42:21.

couple up like which city they live in, because people realise as a

:42:22.:42:24.

couple they can see the point of view on a big issue, it is the

:42:25.:42:28.

little things, when a man will not help lay the table, pick up after

:42:29.:42:33.

the kids, do the washing, those are the things that erode the

:42:34.:42:39.

relationships and damage them. Rebecca, you have written a book,

:42:40.:42:45.

that is why you're here. Modern motherhood and the illusion of

:42:46.:42:51.

equality. Perhaps there are some old attitudes that persist. A woman's

:42:52.:42:58.

work is never done, honey, I am home. How much is that cultural? The

:42:59.:43:05.

interesting thing is a lot of it is cultural, but it is linked to the

:43:06.:43:08.

supporting structures and legislation in a country. It is no

:43:09.:43:11.

accident that the countries that come out top in that research in

:43:12.:43:16.

terms of having a good environment for mothers are the same countries

:43:17.:43:21.

that encourage fathers to do as much as possible. These are countries

:43:22.:43:28.

that lay down very firm cultural expectation, that others will take

:43:29.:43:33.

their fair share in the household, countries that do as much as

:43:34.:43:37.

possible to bring fathers in in the early days of childcare, so they

:43:38.:43:44.

have shared parental leave. Hard habit to break. It takes focus and a

:43:45.:43:51.

bit of a stick and carrot to get fathers involved. What those

:43:52.:43:54.

countries have is a long length of ring fenced paternity leave for

:43:55.:44:02.

fathers. It is use it or lose it, they either take it or it is

:44:03.:44:07.

completely falls away. It forces fathers, in just the same way as

:44:08.:44:12.

mothers, to come to terms with childcare. It is strange that that

:44:13.:44:21.

is a stick. It is a carrot and a stick. Parenthood is learned on the

:44:22.:44:25.

job. You take a deep breath, you get in there, it is really hard and

:44:26.:44:30.

really rewarding. It is two sides of the same coin. I'm sure there are

:44:31.:44:33.

mothers and fathers in this room who would agree. We are in 2014 and we

:44:34.:44:44.

still do not have pay parity between men and women. Outside of the home

:44:45.:44:51.

we are so lackadaisical. We still have this pervasive attitude within

:44:52.:44:55.

the home that women are going to get along and do things. We do have pay

:44:56.:45:02.

parity, this is how. In the 20s and 30s, men and women get paid the

:45:03.:45:07.

same. We don't have a gender pay gap, we have it kicking in when we

:45:08.:45:14.

start to force mothers-to-be the main carer and force fathers to be

:45:15.:45:21.

the main earner. You only need to look at the countries at the top of

:45:22.:45:25.

the list, where the roles are shared more equally, fathers have equal

:45:26.:45:30.

rights. We have given women equal rights in the workplace, we have not

:45:31.:45:34.

given fathers equal rights to take on the role of being the carer,

:45:35.:45:42.

unless you get equal rights for fathers, as happens more in the

:45:43.:45:45.

Scandinavian countries, nothing will change. What rights do you want?

:45:46.:45:56.

There are three key rights. When I child is born mothers are given

:45:57.:46:00.

parental rights but a father is not -- when a child is born. It is the

:46:01.:46:06.

right to make decisions about health, religion and so on. It is

:46:07.:46:10.

automatically given to all mothers. It is not given to all fathers.

:46:11.:46:16.

There are only two ways a father can automatically get it, one is by

:46:17.:46:19.

being granted it by the mother when she marries him, the other is from

:46:20.:46:25.

the state. We are treated differently because of our sex. The

:46:26.:46:30.

second thing is, all of this support the state puts in terms of child

:46:31.:46:34.

benefit and other support goes directly to the mother, not the

:46:35.:46:37.

father. That says basically, mother, you are the primary carer. The third

:46:38.:46:43.

key thing is parental leave rights. The last Labour government

:46:44.:46:45.

introduced the most unequal parental leave rights in the world. They made

:46:46.:46:50.

them mother's rights, not parents rights. When a couple sits down and

:46:51.:46:56.

makes the choice about taking on the responsibility, they are forced into

:46:57.:47:01.

certain decisions unless there is a massive income disparity. My

:47:02.:47:04.

daughter is 16, I was at home for the first three years of my life, it

:47:05.:47:08.

was easier to make that decision in 1997 than it would be now. Parental

:47:09.:47:13.

rights were a lot more equal in the 90s but they were less generous.

:47:14.:47:20.

Even if a man has fewer rights, and quite rightly we need to look at

:47:21.:47:25.

that, men can see beyond that. If both partners are working or if

:47:26.:47:30.

mother is at home as a mother, men can come home and still help out.

:47:31.:47:33.

-- and they do. It is not happening. past the fact... And they do.

:47:34.:47:50.

It is also the case that women do two thirds of the house work. That

:47:51.:47:59.

is right across the world. It is also the case that as women earn

:48:00.:48:02.

more, once they start to earn more than the man, they take on more

:48:03.:48:09.

house work. You can sort of do less as you earn more but as soon as you

:48:10.:48:13.

overtake him you end up doing more house work and more childcare than

:48:14.:48:16.

he does. It is an interesting anomaly. The other thing we need to

:48:17.:48:24.

be really aware of is that men and women have different views about

:48:25.:48:29.

what is there. Women tend to see fairness in terms of doing equal

:48:30.:48:33.

amounts. There is a certain amount of work being done. Some of it is

:48:34.:48:37.

paid work, some of it is work with the children. The women will see

:48:38.:48:42.

hours put in in equal terms as fairness. Men tend to feel they can

:48:43.:48:47.

buy themselves out of childcare by earning more. So they will come home

:48:48.:48:51.

and they won't muck in necessarily, because they feel their fair

:48:52.:48:55.

contribution comes from higher earnings. We have a lot of very

:48:56.:48:59.

complex things going on about how we think about fairness which do not

:49:00.:49:08.

match. They undervalued the mother, that she is not doing as much work.

:49:09.:49:14.

Sometimes when men do a bit of housework and praised for it, they

:49:15.:49:19.

are kind of canonised. The good men who are doing their share... Thank

:49:20.:49:31.

you! They are not exceptional, that is what they should be doing. You

:49:32.:49:37.

are worried about men becoming emasculated, what do you mean?

:49:38.:49:44.

Sometimes we think that men are pushed aside

:49:45.:49:46.

Sometimes we think that men are strong women, but in my own family I

:49:47.:49:51.

see my son doing a huge amount of childcare. And all sorts of things.

:49:52.:49:56.

If there is a nappy to be changed and he will go and do it. He never

:49:57.:50:00.

gives a second thought to it. I didn't see my husband doing quite

:50:01.:50:05.

that. I think over 20, 30, 40 years, we have moved a long way in more and

:50:06.:50:10.

more men doing things. We mustn't go so far as to push men into feeling

:50:11.:50:12.

that they are less important, less so far as to push men into feeling

:50:13.:50:20.

valuable, of less worth than women. Why would the man changing his

:50:21.:50:22.

child's nappy would Why would the man changing his

:50:23.:50:26.

less of a man or less valuable to the project of raising that child?

:50:27.:50:32.

Why is that a threat to masculinity? I think we are in danger of women

:50:33.:50:37.

being so forceful today in saying, this is what you are going to do...

:50:38.:50:46.

Where is this day? These fathers over here, they are asking to be

:50:47.:50:50.

involved, they want to be involved, it is not women pushing them into

:50:51.:50:55.

it, it is the men themselves. If I could just add, if there was shared

:50:56.:50:59.

parental leave come which we have talked about a lot, if men and women

:51:00.:51:04.

had their time at home, they could make up their own minds about

:51:05.:51:07.

whether it was for them or not. At the moment they don't have the

:51:08.:51:13.

chance. It is what works for each individual couple. In my own

:51:14.:51:17.

household, my husband is a lot better at doing the yard work and I

:51:18.:51:20.

am better at organising big birthday parties. You are so forceful!

:51:21.:51:28.

Britain could do better at drawing men into parenthood. As a

:51:29.:51:34.

grandfather and a father I have experience of trying this. There are

:51:35.:51:37.

couple of obstacles. One is that women are far safer than men in

:51:38.:51:42.

nearly all respects, safer drivers, commit less violent crime. It is

:51:43.:51:47.

reflected in caring relationships. Men who care for children are much

:51:48.:51:51.

more likely to abuse them sexually or physically. It doesn't mean all

:51:52.:51:57.

men but it is true that men are more risky. Catherine, you made a face of

:51:58.:52:06.

anguish and pain. My baby son is eight months old and when he was

:52:07.:52:09.

four months old I went back to work full-time, and my husband took

:52:10.:52:12.

additional parental leave for three months which he is just coming to

:52:13.:52:16.

the end. Less than 1% of couples in the country do that. I think partly

:52:17.:52:20.

it is about as ability, that being known about. But when he went to

:52:21.:52:25.

make the request, and he works in a government department, a large

:52:26.:52:29.

organisation, they had never heard of the request in the HR Department.

:52:30.:52:35.

Then they grated it to -- granted it to him as though they were doing him

:52:36.:52:39.

a favour. He was very much reassured by everybody that it wouldn't affect

:52:40.:52:43.

his position and he would be able to come back in and they were not

:52:44.:52:47.

looking firstly at it. -- at firstly at it.

:52:48.:52:51.

The sort of culture that I view as being from the 70s. I think my

:52:52.:53:00.

husband has a new-found appreciation for the workplace after three months

:53:01.:53:04.

at home, it is rewarding but it is hard work. My baby son, bless him,

:53:05.:53:09.

will come to me and love him but he will equally come to my husband and

:53:10.:53:12.

love him and be with him, and we are stronger as a family. You have four

:53:13.:53:21.

children including triplets? That is right. My goodness me. What a joy

:53:22.:53:30.

they are. Hard work? Yes. I want to say very clearly that being a father

:53:31.:53:35.

does not emasculate a man. It can be the making of a man, actually.

:53:36.:53:40.

APPLAUSE There isn't a man in the country who

:53:41.:53:45.

can stand up and say, I did enough, without getting attacked. Because

:53:46.:53:48.

you can never do enough and I know full well that people will be

:53:49.:53:53.

watching this programme and saying, yeah, because I didn't do enough. I

:53:54.:53:57.

was caught up in a crisis, particularly when the three came.

:53:58.:54:04.

That forced me to re-evaluate how I felt about it and how much I would

:54:05.:54:09.

get involved. When our time comes, there is no man who sits there and

:54:10.:54:13.

says, well, I am glad I didn't spend more time with my children. It is

:54:14.:54:19.

the greatest thing. If there is anything to make, it has been the

:54:20.:54:24.

making of me. They are fantastic and have taught me a great deal. It is a

:54:25.:54:27.

terrible struggle sometimes. For both of us. It is interesting, what

:54:28.:54:35.

it is to be a man isn't static. The changing role of the man has to do a

:54:36.:54:45.

lot with the women's movement and the LGB Teemu Pukki. Men are more

:54:46.:54:49.

likely to talk about their movement -- LGB tee movement.

:54:50.:54:55.

Although they are not doing enough around the house, the number of

:54:56.:55:05.

house husband has gone up to 10% to hit -- it has increased hugely.

:55:06.:55:13.

Women as a movement have change what it means to be a man and that is a

:55:14.:55:16.

good thing, it is something to be braced. My cousin and her husband

:55:17.:55:25.

had their first child last night, a baby girl born last night.

:55:26.:55:32.

Congratulations! The child was born in Norway where they have been

:55:33.:55:36.

working for the last couple of years. Mother and farmer -- father

:55:37.:55:42.

are sorting out huge periods of parental leave. I think it is a very

:55:43.:55:49.

healthy arrangement. That kind of regulation and state involvement in

:55:50.:55:51.

the laws is one thing. The other side of the argument is just being a

:55:52.:55:56.

decent person, someone who was brought up well to do your fair

:55:57.:56:03.

share, to be someone who is selfless, I don't think it requires

:56:04.:56:09.

too many carrots and sticks. I just wanted to say, I think it is a bit

:56:10.:56:14.

ludicrous to say it is a threat to masculinity, you chose to bring a

:56:15.:56:17.

child into this world, if you are not willing to get hands-on and

:56:18.:56:21.

involved as a woman does, why put yourself in that situation? I think

:56:22.:56:27.

intentions are good for many people but behaviour takes time to catch

:56:28.:56:31.

up. You may be point about the historical issue of slavery. It is

:56:32.:56:37.

incredible, how behaviour takes a long time to catch up to the good

:56:38.:56:45.

intentions that many men have. I was going to say that growing up in the

:56:46.:56:48.

house I grew up in, we had to do everything. My parents at this

:56:49.:56:53.

philosophy, when you can figure up a broom you learn to sweep, if you can

:56:54.:56:58.

hold a scouring pad you scrub a pot and you have to learn to do

:56:59.:57:02.

everything. That is how I have raised my children. Then it doesn't

:57:03.:57:09.

become such an issue. Their -- there may be government things in the way

:57:10.:57:13.

but culturally, you are prepared for it. So when it does come, it should

:57:14.:57:17.

be a better society. I think that is spot on but I want to pick up one

:57:18.:57:22.

point about the way we have framed this question. We said why are black

:57:23.:57:25.

people not involved in the judge of indolent, it is a really good way to

:57:26.:57:31.

frame it? What -- involved in the church of England. We have framed

:57:32.:57:34.

this question, what is wrong with men? The conversation around gender

:57:35.:57:40.

frames conversation by saying, men are problems and women have

:57:41.:57:43.

problems. We have to change that mentality. Fathers are doing their

:57:44.:57:52.

fair share, aren't they? You would not say, our mothers doing their

:57:53.:57:56.

fair share? Fathers bring home two thirds of the income and do about

:57:57.:57:59.

the third of their care. We don't say, are women not doing their fair

:58:00.:58:04.

share in the workplace? We need to get beyond the debate. The language

:58:05.:58:09.

we use is important, the phraseology is important.

:58:10.:58:14.

We are out of time to thank you all very much for taking part. Give

:58:15.:58:19.

yourselves a round of applause. APPLAUSE

:58:20.:58:26.

The debate will continue online and on Twitter. Next week a special on

:58:27.:58:28.

the First World War, did it change written for the better? Goodbye from

:58:29.:58:33.

The Big Questions, have a great Sunday -- did it change written for

:58:34.:58:38.

the better? -- Britain.

:58:39.:58:40.

Nicky Campbell presents moral, ethical and religious debates live from Goldsmiths, University of London. Are zero-hour contracts ethical? Is the Church of England institutionally racist? Do fathers do their fair share?


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