Episode 5 The Big Questions


Episode 5

Moral, ethical and religious debates considering: Is it Britain's duty to give refuge to Syrian Christians?; Should some life sentences be for life?; Should women dress modestly?


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Transcript


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Today on the Big Question, Syrian Christian, life imprisonment. Will

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and modesty. APPLAUSE

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Good morning. I am Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. Today

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we are live from the Bishop's Stortford High School in

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Hertfordshire. Welcome everybody, to The Big Questions this morning.

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Thank you very much for coming. Now, this week, the Home Secretary

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announced Britain would provide refuge for round 5 hundred of the

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most vulnerable strings of the war in Syria. Germany has pledged to

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take 11,000 refugees under the UNHCR scheme. So far 2.5 million people

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have taken refuge in camps in Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon.

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Some politician, like Nigel Farage of UKIP, and Sir Gerald Howarth of

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the Conservatives, have called for Britain to do more, especially for

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our "Fellow Christians." It is Britain's duty to give refuge to

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Syrian Christians. Alison Ruoff, why do you think Christians should be

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prioritised? Because there is nowhere else for them to go, in the

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Middle East. It is very difficult. Many have gone to different

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countries closer to Syria, but there is still persecution, so I believe

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we are still a Christian country, the majority of people, still a

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majority say we are a Christian country in Great Britain, and

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therefore I think we have a duty to take some of these Syrians, and I

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would say, let us prioritise Christians, because they are having

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such a really hard time in terms of purse kuetion. But everyone is

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having a hard time Of course they are but Christians are in the middle

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of it. Even is. Well... Prioritising Christian, is that a Christian thing

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to do? It is in this situation. APPLAUSE

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Because they are so persecuted throughout the Middle East, and

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where you have had dictators in the various countries, Iraq, Egypt, and

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so on, Tunisia, and where they have fallen, and been goesed, therefore

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the Christians are then attacked big time. Where the dictators have been

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in power, providing the drisians have kept their heads down, they

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have been safe. You have had many Christians go from Iraq to Syria for

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example, and now, the rise in persecution in Iraq is higher and

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Christianity has been slowly wiped ou. Well quite fast now in the

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Middle East. That is the birthplace of Jesus, you think what is going on

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there, it is so sad for Christians to have this awful battle of being

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between Shias and Sunni Muslims so the Christians are getting the worst

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of it. A measure of agreement there. , Reverend Nadim Nassar why not? I

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am from Syria, I afree the Syrians are having a terrible time. For the

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first time for centuries we are being killed because we are

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Christians. It is appalling, there is torture. Beheading with swords in

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the 21st century. If we ask Jesus here, would you like your people for

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prioritised and being out of the trouble he would say no. Because the

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suffering, the suffering... APPLAUSE

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Although I height light because I am a priest I highlight the Christian,

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but the suffering of the Christians is not in any way more or, more

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important than the suffering of any Syrian, every Syrian is suffer,

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Christians should not be prioritises or deplaced from their home. You

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said, lady, Alison. Alison, that Christians are leaving the Middle

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East. So we need to support Christian, to stay in the Middle

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East. That is right. That is what, suddenly, this country remembers

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that the country is a Christian country, I am sorry, this country is

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not a Christian country, it is a secular country with some people,

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when they are desperate for an answer, they say, I am an Anglican.

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It eis equal to nothing. I lived here for 16 years and I know, we

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need to support the Christians, to be there. Alison Ruoff we talk of

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course, about Syria, orthodox, but you still maintain they should have

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priority. We are talking about 500. That is tiny, it is a drop in the

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ocean. Of course everybody is suffering in Syria, it is a

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nightmare. As the Christians are being so targeted, if we are going

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to have any, they can at least feel safe in this country. Can I stop

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you, we have a technical problem, but we are carrying on with sounds

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but it sounds great on the radio. Sorry Alison, carry on. I forgot

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what I was saying. That is called the age! No, so I do think, as it is

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such a small number we can prioritise, we are only talking

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about women and children in particular, who have had such a bad

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time, so... So women and children who are not Christian, Sunni Muslims

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or Shia Muslims but women and children should have priority. 500,

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what difference does it make to millions of people? David. I work

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for a charity called Refugee Action, we spent 30 years vetling refugee,

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we did it with Kosovans, Bosnians and we Vettel about 500 people a

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year from round the world. -- resettle.

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Lisa Pearce you have seen what is happening, you are seeing what is

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happening to Christians, across the Middle East. Give us an idea: So

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right across the Middle East, I mean, it is certainly true they are

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under enormous pressure, the Syrian minority is the second largest

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Christian minor any the Middle East after the minority in Egypt, we have

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seen on the news what has been happening to particularly, the

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Egyptian Coptic church in Iran, in Iraq, these are the lands in which

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the Bible was set. Iran and Iraq most of the Old Testament. The road

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to Damascus. Where Paul became a Christian is in Syria, these are the

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home lands of Christianity, this is not a western religion, here is not

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the heartland of Christianity, it is in those nations where they are

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being pushed out, in Iraq for example in the '90s there were 1.5

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million Christian, through persecution, they are now down to

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about 330,000. I spoke to an Iraqi church leader a couple of weeks ago,

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he the up side the Government has increased the number of Soames to

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put outside our church to ensure we are not attacked while we worship.

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That is the up side of Christianity in the Middle East. There is

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something wrong. I agree with Reverend Nadim Nassar as Christians

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our two key mannedments are to love God with our heart, mind and

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strength, and to love our neighbour, and Jesus made it clear our

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neighbour is anyone in need. On top of that I would say we, in Syria in

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particular, we need to be careful, to make sure that Christians get the

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same level of support we want want everyone else to have. You don't

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find the Christians in the refugee camps because they would rather live

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in a broken down building or in a shed that go to a camp. Secondly,

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they feel fear, and there is a lot of evidence, and a lot of anecdotele

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evidence and a number of people I have met as refugees and spoke to in

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Lebanon were saying they didn't want to register as refugees because they

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have fear of reprisal from Assad should he retain power. So we need

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to be intentional in seeking them out. Absolutely right. Culturally

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speaking and from the religious background, we do not in Syria or in

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the Middle East, we do not like to be in a refugee status, or go to

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camps, and live in tents, what we do, is we absorb that, into our

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families, churches, monastery, convents, and because of that, I

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urge everybody to help us, I am the director of the awareness found day,

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we have projects to help Christians in the Middle East, to stay in the

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Middle East and play their role. Absolutely. Tim Aker, we know what

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your leader Nigel Farage has said about this, and I mentioned Sir

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Gerald Howarth from the Conservatives as well. Make the

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case, if you would, because I know it is what you believe prioritising

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Christians. This is still a Christian country, if asked with

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what faith people identify with, it is Christianity. It has been the

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British thick to do to offer safe haven. We wouldn't have this if we

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controlled our borders, but we say that we should offer, it is a crisis

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what is going on there, that would be made worst if Cameron had his way

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and started bombing Syria, UKIP was the first party to say... That is a

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debate we will have before and will have again, why prioritise a

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particular religious group? There is persecution going on, we are the

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first ones to say we should be a safe haven for the most persecuted.

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Sunni Muslim, Shia? There are other states out from they, the Muslims

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can integrate into better. Jordan, Turkey and so on, we are saying is

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as a Christian country they can be better... You can't say a Muslim

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couldn't imintegrate into our country. It is not to discriminate

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in the UK, you don't solve it in one country by discriminating in another

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country. We are talking about 500 people. Yes, the lady there, I saw

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you had your hand up earlier on. Perhaps when we lost picture, but

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now is your chance. I am an employment lawyer, and I work every

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day on looking at issues of discrimination in the workplace, and

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I have to say I am alarmed that anyone can hold a view like this,

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particularly people that are magistrate, that are leaders. Former

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magistrate. So, it is fundamentally unethical to differentiate on the

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grounds of religion, if I were to put it to you, that we are only for

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example going to take black people from a certain country or take

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people of a particular sex, how would you foil about that? Because

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it is -- feel about that, because it is no different these are personal

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traits that relate to people, like sex, race, colour, their religious

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belief should not be differentiated. Alison, I want to explore with

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you... If those people you mentioned, black people, different

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race, whatever, were the most targeteded in that place, then I

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would take them. And it doesn't matter, we have to look after the

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most % Kouted. It it is a small chance, a small opportunity do what

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is is really light, and to care for Christian people. Because nobody

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else will. There is a family, to give you an example it is not just

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about the beliefs it is the danger they are in. It is the danger they

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are in. If you read to the aid to church website. Disproportionate. A

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Syrian family moved to ordand during Easter time, they had death threats

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saying, you move away or we will kill you like your Christ was

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killed. That is danger. That is right.

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Vicky Beeching. I think it makes me uncomfortable to here Alison basing

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this on the Christian faith as a Christian as well, I would say the

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gospel I read is all about welcoming the unexpected person, the outsider,

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that God says, the least expected poem are welcome, so for us to start

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picking and choosing we want people like us, makes me unsettled on the

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base of the faith. I don't think this is a Christian country any

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more, row, if you look at YouGov polls it is a mixed country and I

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don't think we have the right as Christians to claim it as a

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Christian nation. Sorry, I have a figure here, I thought somebody

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might say that so I wrote it down. A poll, 56% of people believed this is

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a Christian country. I would go by church attendance. People practising

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the faith. I think we have to trust the experts on the ground, in Syria,

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500 people is a drop in the ocean, it is a very important drop in the

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ocean, because it is such a small amount it needs to be got right. If

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you faubg to the scheme, they will say how do you choose, they would

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say if you target a programme like this you put more Christians at

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risk, they will be worried about doing a thing because it raises the

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profeel of the group in the area. So the experts would say this is the

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wrong thing to do. They are not prioritising Christians, if you have

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bishops from Syria, they would say do not prioritise Christians because

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that would even put us in greater danger, because we are e labelled

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any way agents of the west. So we are, we don't want the west to care

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for us, in this way, we want the west to care for us, by supporting

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us where we are, not to take us away from where we are. An interesting

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concept. I want to speak to you, Tim, in a second. The concept is

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almost a reflection of the Muslim idea of a Christian brotherhood, the

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Christian community across the nation. People within that should

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have special care. That seems to be what you were saying. Not really.

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There comes a point when Christians go on turning the other cheek, time

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after time, and I think there comes a point where we actually say,

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enough is enough. 500 is just so tiny. If we are going to have people

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who have been so badly treated and so hurt and damaged, let's look

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after these people for once. We never look after them normally. The

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lady at the back. You have the microphone. Good morning. I actually

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think we should be pretty ashamed of ourselves for only taking 500.

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Germany are taking 11,000. Your leader, Tim, has spoken about the

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social impact. Do you think the social impact, it would be easier to

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integrate Christians? Alison is nodding in agreement. We have a

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problem in this country... We're talking about Armenian Orthodox,

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Syrian Orthodox, they are not going to be joining Alison on the sin

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order of the Church of England. They might. Why should they? Why don't we

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respect their identity as Christians? Why should I ask an

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orthodox to become Anglican in order to be a proper Christian humour I am

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not asking them to become Anglican. But do not want to join this an odd.

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These numbers are on a tiny scale. If we're talking about helping the

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church in Syria, we need to be concerned about the fact that Geneva

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is happening at the moment. It is looking at the future of Syria. The

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Christian population is 10%. There is no Christian representation at

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Geneva. We took a petition of 300,000 concerned people to the UN

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and met with all five of the permanent missions before Christmas.

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All of them acknowledge that the church is not there and they were

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not represented. They said they do not know what to do about it. That

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is not good enough. The UK plays a key role in the Security Council and

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we should be putting more energy into making sure that there are

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Christian voices at the table. Not disproportionate representation,

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their representation. Secondly, our aid is to strip you to... There is a

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political point. -- our aid is distributed. We're talking about

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persecution in danger. Who paraded that? The West aided Al-Qaeda to be

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in Syria. The double standards of the West. On one hand, Al-Qaeda is a

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terrorist organisation and on the other hand, Al-Qaeda is OK in Syria

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because Al-Qaeda is fighting Assad. I want to ask one more question of

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Alison. I would like to make this the last point. Bishop Nad-e-Ali and

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George Keely and others, we have heard this line of thought that

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distance in this country are persecuted. Marginalised. Do you

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condemn those words? No. When you look at Syria, do you not think it

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cheapens the term? Do not think that Christians are being persecuted in

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this country but it is marginalisation and it is becoming

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more and more. Ultimately, that will lead to prosecution if it is allowed

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to continue. What will happen? We will become anything but a Christian

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country. That is not persecution. It is a case of you being able to say

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anything about Christians, mocking God as much as you like in this

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country. Say something about all our, Islam, and you have the biggest

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row possible. -- Allah. There's been a kerfuffle this week about

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something that happened on the programme a of weeks ago. We are

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doing religion and God next week. I will have to comeback! It is never

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too soon. Thank you all very much indeed. We have to leave it there.

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If you have something to say about that debate, logon to

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bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can

:19:32.:19:35.

join in the discussion online. Or contribute on Twitter. We're also

:19:36.:19:41.

debating live this morning from Bishop's Stortford. Should some life

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sentences be for life? And, "Should women dress modestly?" So get

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tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other ideas or

:19:48.:19:50.

thoughts you may have about the show.

:19:51.:19:55.

Last summer the European Court of Human Rights ruled that British

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Justice Secretaries could no longer issue or uphold "whole life orders"

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to some convicted murderers. They said such sentences were inhuman and

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degrading unless there is the possibility of an earlier review or

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release. The case upheld an appeal brought by whole-life prisoners

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Jeremy Bamber, Douglas Vinter, and Peter Moore. Between them, these

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three men were convicted for 11 murders. Currently 50 prisoners are

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serving whole life tariffs in England and Wales, including Ian

:20:31.:20:33.

Brady, Dennis Nilsen and Robert Black. Should some life sentences be

:20:34.:20:49.

for life? Rupert Myers, let me remind you what the European Court

:20:50.:20:53.

said. If you take away any chance of sentence review release, whatever

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your crime, it is inhumane and degrading. Yes. And that was under

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Article three of the European Convention which was originally

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designed to deal with cases of torture and very severe

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incarceration. It has been broadened in this judgement, I think, to

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include those 50 or so people locked up out of a prison publishing of

:21:17.:21:20.

85,000 in the UK. It is important to remember that for almost every

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prisoner, they will be released and rehabilitated. The European Court

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said they should be given hope. They all have that hope as has been

:21:29.:21:33.

argued at the moment. Because they can all appeal to the Secretary of

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State on grounds of compassionate release. We're not talking about 50

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murderers because people who just commit murder, and I'm sorry to say

:21:42.:21:45.

that but we are talking about a very inclusive section of the prison

:21:46.:21:50.

publishing, they are released on licence. These 50 are mostly people

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who have gone on to commit further at Russia's acts on licence,

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including murder and child abuse. We're talking about people who have

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already had that possibility of redemption and rehabilitation and

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they have abused that privilege and gone back into incarceration. And

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they can still appeal for compassionate release. People like

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Robert Black, saying he should be given hope and the possibility of

:22:17.:22:22.

review and release. You think, why should a man who kidnapped little

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girls and dumped their bodies by the motorway, why should he be given

:22:25.:22:29.

hope? From a Christian perspective? I dealt with a life sentence in my

:22:30.:22:35.

church. And I've visited the person more than once. The family really

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suffered, really really suffered, to get the message to the court and the

:22:45.:22:48.

system that this person might need a hospital rather than a prison. And

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after a fight, for years and years, from the worst prison, they move

:22:58.:23:03.

this person to a hospital and in the hospital, his situation changed

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dramatically. I've visited him and they know him personally. -- I know

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him. God works through us with redemption. Why should Robert Black

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be given hope? All human beings are entitled to hope. John, Penny, your

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daughter was 26, the mother of imaging, who was eight months old.

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Murdered by her partner. -- Imogen. He was already on bail for assault

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and rape. Does he deserve hope? Absolutely not. He has been jailed

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for life but it is no life. It is part of his life. My daughter lost

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her life and he did not respect human rights, her right for basic

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survival. He did not respect his daughter's right to have a mother to

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bring her up. And yet here he is with hope that in 27 years time, he

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could get out of prison. He was jailed for life but life does not

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mean life. And this is where a lot of victims that I'm representing

:24:16.:24:20.

today are saying that life should mean life. Do not call it a life

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sentence in court if it does not mean life. More people should be on

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the whole life tariff or they should instigate, David Cameron had this

:24:29.:24:33.

idea of sentencing people for 100 years without review until 80 years

:24:34.:24:40.

into the sentence. They should come out of prison in a wooden box. There

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has to be a deterrent factor in the sentencing system. Because capital

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punishment is not on the agenda, whole life tariffs are the next

:24:49.:24:56.

thing that will prevent people from thinking about committing

:24:57.:25:01.

atrocities. Deterrent is about changing. There is actually no hope

:25:02.:25:07.

for change. For a start, it is a punishment system, not... But if the

:25:08.:25:13.

punishment is they are... What Penny said, the only way they should come

:25:14.:25:19.

out of prison is to use her words, in a box. As a Christian, how do you

:25:20.:25:26.

respond to that? I am in Christian. My heart is broken for the situation

:25:27.:25:30.

that occurs, but everyone of us as to identify with our own following

:25:31.:25:35.

this, and I'd have to look at the people who commit these crimes and

:25:36.:25:39.

think, that could be me -- fallenness. In the Christian

:25:40.:25:45.

tradition, it is repentance, making a turnaround. These offenders have

:25:46.:25:51.

already shown that they are willing to take a human life. But the result

:25:52.:26:01.

was hope for change. I'm sorry. These people have already taken a

:26:02.:26:05.

human life and the thought of the offenders that have killed our

:26:06.:26:09.

daughter and other people's loved ones, the thought of them getting

:26:10.:26:13.

out, our fear is that they will reoffender, that he will be freed to

:26:14.:26:17.

be a perpetrator again, a predator again, because he will, we have no

:26:18.:26:22.

doubt about it, latch onto the next woman he finds and that lady will

:26:23.:26:31.

find herself in the same position. Lynne and Mick, your son was

:26:32.:26:37.

murdered in 2002. The people who murdered him have not shown any room

:26:38.:26:41.

or s am I think I'm right in saying that. One of them was released and

:26:42.:26:44.

went straight back in, and yet you believe that there should be the

:26:45.:26:49.

possibility of review and release for these murderers. I've changed my

:26:50.:26:56.

mind, really. I would said the exact same thing as John and Penny but you

:26:57.:27:00.

can only go by your own experience and for us, for years after Paul was

:27:01.:27:06.

killed, were asked to go into prison and share our story with the men

:27:07.:27:09.

there. And they were all from the life unit. It was like meeting the

:27:10.:27:16.

people who had killed our son. But they were not what we were expecting

:27:17.:27:20.

and we were not what they were expecting. It was a powerful meeting

:27:21.:27:23.

of victims and offenders. And between us, I think we help each

:27:24.:27:32.

other. We come from a positive position, and we have received

:27:33.:27:37.

comfort. We have had hundreds of letters of the change that has taken

:27:38.:27:43.

place in the lives. We believe in restorative justice and redemption.

:27:44.:27:50.

The possibility for all murderers? It has to include everyone. Although

:27:51.:27:55.

the possibility is there, the parole board and the review board is there

:27:56.:28:02.

to safeguard against extreme violence and extreme cases. For us,

:28:03.:28:09.

we do not go that far. You can only do what you do and we see a lot of

:28:10.:28:16.

hope in the prisoners. We have spoken to thousands of prisoners and

:28:17.:28:21.

many of them are very positive because they have never had the

:28:22.:28:24.

realisation of what their crime was about. A lot of them, in a moment,

:28:25.:28:30.

if they had the moment again would never commit the crime. In the

:28:31.:28:35.

instance of a premeditated murder where it is calculate it and

:28:36.:28:41.

cold-blooded, it seems inherently wrong that somebody who was prepared

:28:42.:28:47.

to take someone's human rights to life can then rely on human rights

:28:48.:28:52.

legislation to protect them and give them hope in their life that they

:28:53.:29:01.

may be released. As victims, we are living that life sentence. On the

:29:02.:29:07.

outside. It affects us everyday, the pain and suffering that we go

:29:08.:29:14.

through constantly, knowing what happened to our loved ones. We need

:29:15.:29:19.

to know that the people who carried out these atrocious crimes are

:29:20.:29:26.

getting punished and are being dealt with and that we will be protected

:29:27.:29:33.

by his incarceration or whoever it is, that the public are protected in

:29:34.:29:40.

the future. Let us go to the audience. Gentleman

:29:41.:29:45.

there at the back. I think the language of life sentences is

:29:46.:29:48.

unfortunate. The punishment for theft is not theft, and the

:29:49.:29:52.

punishment for rape is not rape, but if we take someone's life but do we

:29:53.:29:56.

as a society have the right to take that person's life? I don't think we

:29:57.:30:02.

can say... That is not what we are discussing. I don't think we can say

:30:03.:30:06.

capital punishment is off the table and yet someone should leave prison

:30:07.:30:12.

in a box. There should be a deterrent. It was a similar point to

:30:13.:30:24.

that. I want to... Tim Aker. A system of law where the, they see

:30:25.:30:27.

somebody who has committed a terrible crime and they are given a

:30:28.:30:30.

sentence, but they don't serve that sentence. Can't people change? If it

:30:31.:30:34.

is a life sentence it should mean life. The sentence should mean what

:30:35.:30:38.

it says, if you are given eight years you serve eight years. You

:30:39.:30:42.

don't understand the point. We are not talking about people who have

:30:43.:30:46.

committed criminal offence and been sentenced to life. We are talking

:30:47.:30:49.

about a small number of prisoners who are given release and on

:30:50.:30:53.

license, commit further offence, so it isn't a case of deterrence, these

:30:54.:30:57.

people who have been in jail. Know what it is like and commit murder

:30:58.:31:03.

again. I think it is really, I think in

:31:04.:31:10.

such a serious era, I think one of the main things that is jumping out

:31:11.:31:16.

to me is this idea when people go to jail, and they are incarcerated. I

:31:17.:31:20.

think there is something seriously wrong in the terms of the

:31:21.:31:23.

rehabilitation process, regardless of how long that person is in jail,

:31:24.:31:28.

and regardless of what the crime is s because from what I have studied,

:31:29.:31:33.

there are many poem who go into jail, they commit a crime. They come

:31:34.:31:36.

out. They get stuck in a cycle and they commit the same act again,

:31:37.:31:42.

whether that is theft... Someone who might be able to address that is

:31:43.:31:46.

Richard. You were in for murder, it was a robbery, what would the effect

:31:47.:31:51.

be if hope was taken away for more prisoners than at the moment, in the

:31:52.:31:57.

criminal justice system? If it was taken away? It would... For me, How

:31:58.:32:05.

do you mean, a mess? It would create a blood bath. If you take hope away

:32:06.:32:09.

from prisonerings and just say that is it, that is your lot, life means

:32:10.:32:13.

life, you are never getting out, do what you like, they will. They will

:32:14.:32:18.

do exactly what they like, they have nothing do but keep them in jail. So

:32:19.:32:24.

that light... That light at the end of the tunnel keeps order, are you

:32:25.:32:36.

saying that? Yes No. He has been in prison. What is the value of life

:32:37.:32:40.

when you have no hope? You can kill, you can kill yourself, you can kill

:32:41.:32:45.

other, you can do everything. Do whatever you like. Can you do better

:32:46.:32:56.

than jail? Alison Ruoff. I think, I have visited many prisons over the

:32:57.:33:01.

time I was a magistrate, and admittedly I couldn't send anyone to

:33:02.:33:04.

prison for life, but at the same time, I actually feel having visited

:33:05.:33:08.

these people, they are doing all sorts of amazing things in prison,

:33:09.:33:14.

lifer, they are doing degrees and further degrees, and... What, go on.

:33:15.:33:20.

They are getting so much support, they don't have to worry, I agree, I

:33:21.:33:26.

would also impose life meaning life on people who shoot police officers

:33:27.:33:32.

doing their job. It should mean life. As a committed Christian, if

:33:33.:33:39.

somebody were to find Jesus and totally transform their life, would

:33:40.:33:46.

would you not welcome their position in the community so they can spread

:33:47.:33:55.

the world. Of course. That would involve... Jesus, you know, he God

:33:56.:34:01.

appeared to him and he was used to further the church. He wrote half of

:34:02.:34:05.

the New Testament. Is that is not a redemption story and a story God can

:34:06.:34:10.

turn the life of anybody round, I don't know what is. People have a

:34:11.:34:15.

choice on how they behave. If they are willing do that may must take

:34:16.:34:18.

the consequence, and if they are jailed for life they should be

:34:19.:34:22.

jailed for life. Sorry, Penny might be was trying to come in earlier. .

:34:23.:34:28.

I saw you agreeing with Richard's point if hope was taken away. There

:34:29.:34:34.

would be chaos, what I wanted to say was victims now do have an

:34:35.:34:39.

opportunity to have a restorative justice meeting with the victim, and

:34:40.:34:43.

all I can say is that has been a person who has taken that place,

:34:44.:34:49.

with many prisoners, there is an atmosphere and electricity when an

:34:50.:34:54.

offender and a victim come together, and the results from it are

:34:55.:34:59.

absolutely wonderful. Penny, what do you think? I agree that restorative

:35:00.:35:03.

justice has a place within the justice system. It is not for

:35:04.:35:08.

everyone. It is not for everyone. How do we decide which prisoner

:35:09.:35:14.

could be released or not? If there is no rehabilitation, plus

:35:15.:35:17.

punishment, what you are talking about out of hurt, we understand and

:35:18.:35:22.

appreciate, but with the punishment system, there should be

:35:23.:35:28.

rehabilitation, and hope system. So Dennis Nilsen he must have hope?

:35:29.:35:32.

Everybody must have hope. I have seen the cooking pots in the museum,

:35:33.:35:36.

where Dennis Nilsen actually cut up his victims, and had them on the

:35:37.:35:39.

cooker, I have seen the cooker, the whole lot. Would you let that man

:35:40.:35:47.

out? Of course not. Why not? Wait, Vicky Beeching you say why not? I

:35:48.:35:51.

think again on a Christian foundation, the gospel is based on

:35:52.:35:57.

transformation. Why is anybody beyond the help of God? What you are

:35:58.:36:01.

saying is here God is not powerful enough to change that person's life.

:36:02.:36:06.

Father, people may have dremion in the afterlife and you may believe

:36:07.:36:12.

that, but rates of reSid vism among these people suggest that in real

:36:13.:36:16.

life there are people with serious social logical and psychological

:36:17.:36:20.

conditions who are best for our protection in a hospital, not

:36:21.:36:24.

necessarily a prison but are kept there for the rest of their lives

:36:25.:36:28.

for the public safety. APPLAUSE.

:36:29.:36:34.

Think we are confusing two issue, we are confusing the issue of hope with

:36:35.:36:37.

the eschew of taking appropriate measures to ensure the safety of the

:36:38.:36:41.

public, I think in terms of hope, if we don't want anyone to deny us hope

:36:42.:36:46.

we can't deny hope to other people. I think we cannot make a decision...

:36:47.:36:51.

Would it be good to deny hope to Dennis Nilsen? We can't make a

:36:52.:36:55.

decision to deny hope, because otherwise we might be on the

:36:56.:37:00.

receiving end, on the other hand, if people, if people are in the process

:37:01.:37:04.

of possibly being let out of prison, it is our duty and the Prison

:37:05.:37:09.

Service's Dowty to make sure those people are not in endangering the

:37:10.:37:14.

public, clearly we have to do so. Speaking as a prison chaplain. I was

:37:15.:37:19.

agreeing and saying it is something that has to be reviewed. Nobody

:37:20.:37:23.

should be let out of prison if there is the experts believe there is any

:37:24.:37:27.

significant chance of them reoffending. That hoz to be

:37:28.:37:31.

different from saying I am punishing you buzz of my grief. There are

:37:32.:37:37.

murderers who were escaping, the police immediately put out warnings

:37:38.:37:40.

not to approach these people. What were they doing in an open prison?

:37:41.:37:47.

Let us ask the audience. Why not use hope as a method of control. So give

:37:48.:37:52.

Dennis Nilsen hope but only as lip service keep him controlled in

:37:53.:37:56.

prison. Yes, with the glasses. Morning. Morning, it sound like as

:37:57.:38:01.

we have heard from Richard, that if we deny people hope, what we are

:38:02.:38:07.

doing is imposing a kind of capital punishment.

:38:08.:38:11.

Is that, is that, Richard says it is a life sentence. Tim Aker, what do

:38:12.:38:15.

you think about that point? If you commit the worse crimes you should

:38:16.:38:20.

be in there for life. Think of the victim, think of the public safety,

:38:21.:38:25.

those should be the two chief considerations.

:38:26.:38:28.

When it comes to sentencing. What about, what about... Sorry John. Why

:38:29.:38:33.

are people more concerned with the hope of people who commit these

:38:34.:38:38.

crimes, then for the victims life, they have taken, they have no longer

:38:39.:38:48.

got the hope of living out their loved, living with their loved one,

:38:49.:38:52.

the victim, their family, their friends, their colleagues, they are

:38:53.:38:56.

condemned to look back at what happened. What about Imogen, as a

:38:57.:39:01.

final thought? She was eight months old. Is she four or five now? Hang

:39:02.:39:06.

on, I am talking about the little girl. Absolutely. He came to kill

:39:07.:39:11.

that baby the day after he murdered our daughter. His car was full of

:39:12.:39:16.

petrol, and he had lighters and matches and he wasn't a smokerings

:39:17.:39:20.

he had no means of removing that baby safely in that car. To us, it

:39:21.:39:26.

is the worry that this man may get out in the future -- smoker. And the

:39:27.:39:31.

danger that he will put other people, like our daughter in,

:39:32.:39:37.

because he cannot possibly be rehabilitated. He is a predator. You

:39:38.:39:43.

know, we have to be seen as a country, if we have got a credible

:39:44.:39:47.

justice system we have to make sure that the sentences given are life

:39:48.:39:52.

sentence, must mean life it is a joke. That people are murdering and

:39:53.:39:56.

getting out. Thank you all very much indeed.

:39:57.:40:00.

APPLAUSE Thank you.

:40:01.:40:06.

You can join in all the debates by logging on to the website. Follow

:40:07.:40:10.

the link to the online discussion, you can tweet using the hashtag.

:40:11.:40:17.

Tell us what you any about our last Big Question as well. Scores have,

:40:18.:40:22.

the question is should women dress modestly, if you would like to be in

:40:23.:40:33.

the audience as a future show you can e-mail the address below.

:40:34.:40:38.

This is why we are discussing it, should women dress modestly.

:40:39.:40:56.

Yesterday was World Hijab Day. So should women follow that example,

:40:57.:41:02.

and dress modestly, Sarah, you have some concernsn't, don't you, you are

:41:03.:41:06.

not, it is always down to perpetrator of a crime, it is not a

:41:07.:41:09.

question of don't be raped, it is a question of don't rape. You make

:41:10.:41:14.

that very clear, are you concerned about the way some women dress? What

:41:15.:41:20.

I would say is when we are talking about modesty, it is a bigger

:41:21.:41:24.

question, because it is about what is a human being? A human being is a

:41:25.:41:29.

mystery, a combination of matter and spirit, and something mysterious and

:41:30.:41:33.

wonderful and beautiful, so if we are asking how in of any of us

:41:34.:41:39.

dress, we have to say what does it say about who I am, what I am trying

:41:40.:41:44.

to be. Modesty is about how I look at other people, so it is in any

:41:45.:41:48.

eyes and yours looking at me, whatever we are wearing, so my

:41:49.:41:52.

concern would be more with the commercialisation of the appearance

:41:53.:41:55.

of women to make them lock like objects, so what they are trained to

:41:56.:41:58.

wear, what children think it's a good idea to wear, is making them

:41:59.:42:02.

lock a little bit more like objects we should lock at differently. Isn't

:42:03.:42:08.

this in danger of edging towards the view of the sqrelz, the temptress,

:42:09.:42:15.

you think it is opposite of that? I think it is. It is saying we are

:42:16.:42:20.

responsible for how we choose to appear the other, and no-one is

:42:21.:42:24.

imposing how anyone else should dress, I welcome World Hijab Day,

:42:25.:42:28.

because it gives people the chance to say we choose to express our

:42:29.:42:33.

femininity in in way and it is something interior, but not saying

:42:34.:42:38.

that anybody should be imposing what you wear, I am saying be aware of

:42:39.:42:43.

how it expressing your interior life, your interior life is

:42:44.:42:47.

important, we are in a world that is obsessed with exterior appearances.

:42:48.:42:53.

Is modesty empowerment? . It is an empowerment. It is a fruit of the

:42:54.:42:58.

Holy Spirit. In the Catholic sense, it is how you become who you are, it

:42:59.:43:02.

is a grace. It's a grace that expressing how do I become even more

:43:03.:43:06.

this mysterious thing that is spirit, that is sexual, this is

:43:07.:43:10.

matter, and it is an open conversation about how I look at you

:43:11.:43:14.

and how you look at me and what we become.

:43:15.:43:21.

One second please. I know lots of people are dying to

:43:22.:43:34.

come in. I want to speak to Tommo. You are the editor? I am the editor

:43:35.:43:40.

in chief of an online magazine called Hot Hot. We tell people what

:43:41.:43:45.

trend are going on and work as a photographer for loads of fashion

:43:46.:43:48.

brands round the world, and I guess I am in charge of creating an image

:43:49.:43:53.

at the end of the day. But, you know, if the question should women

:43:54.:43:57.

dress more modest? I mean, no, I mean people should dress the way

:43:58.:44:02.

they want. As you said, you know, it is, it is, you know you are putting

:44:03.:44:06.

for Bard your personality, when you wake up and go and do whatever you

:44:07.:44:10.

are doing, you put on whatever you think, whatever you are comfortable

:44:11.:44:14.

in. That is what fashion is about. The culture you are creating with

:44:15.:44:17.

your magazine, I am not saying we shouldn't have it, but we have to be

:44:18.:44:21.

aware the effect it has, all of us are desperate to be liked and

:44:22.:44:25.

approved of so some extent. Modesty is a statement of how much can I be

:44:26.:44:29.

detached from how I ought to dress? The kind of shift that is taking

:44:30.:44:34.

place because of the accept built of your kind of magazine means young

:44:35.:44:40.

girls who put YouTube clips out saying am I hot or not? Children are

:44:41.:44:45.

obsessed with their sexuality. I didn't think of it when I was 16,

:44:46.:44:50.

they are obsessed to that. You have added to that. Think I think you

:44:51.:44:54.

were thinking of that when you were 16. I thought about my A-level

:44:55.:45:01.

results, I thought about having having fun, singing, playing the

:45:02.:45:06.

magistrate. Alison, you were a magistrate, if somebody came in and

:45:07.:45:11.

had been, assaulted or whatever, and would you make a judgment based on

:45:12.:45:19.

the way they had been dressed? If they were standing before me, the

:45:20.:45:24.

victim? You probably would not see the victim necessarily. You cannot

:45:25.:45:29.

absolutely say that but... The defence mentioned it. Is that a

:45:30.:45:37.

factor? It might be? How. Absolutely not. S blame. If I was sitting on

:45:38.:45:46.

the tube and icy people with black tights and leggings and a skirt...

:45:47.:45:58.

-- absolutely not. I feel that we have to be careful. If the top is up

:45:59.:46:02.

to here and the people sitting opposite see the black tights but

:46:03.:46:07.

there is a gap, that is not helping any man sitting opposite. Thank

:46:08.:46:11.

heavens you have retired as a magistrate! That is outrageous.

:46:12.:46:21.

Women must think of how they are looking. Let her finish. Women must

:46:22.:46:29.

consider these things. You say it is not fair on men? Are men are

:46:30.:46:34.

uncontrollable animals? Are we being sexist? Say what you like but men

:46:35.:46:39.

are completely different... I can't, believe you me! Men are completely

:46:40.:46:46.

different from women. Men are switched on like that. Wait, wait

:46:47.:46:56.

stomach men and women are fundamentally different in that way?

:46:57.:46:59.

Men can be switched on and women cannot? It puts the onus on the

:47:00.:47:05.

women, which throughout history has happened, especially in the

:47:06.:47:09.

tradition of Christianity. If you look at and indeed, Eve was called a

:47:10.:47:14.

temptress. Women have been given the responsibility to make things OK for

:47:15.:47:17.

men and many to have the responsibility. We need to address

:47:18.:47:22.

how we choose. Let's go to something more modern. Modesty is described

:47:23.:47:32.

for women, defined by society, by men. This is the scrum and nation

:47:33.:47:35.

against women. Do not think we should allow that. I think there

:47:36.:47:40.

should be certain mores. If I go into the synagogue, I would expect

:47:41.:47:48.

men and women to dress respectably of the place they are in. But to

:47:49.:47:55.

make women responsible for the urges of men is a bad state. I am not

:47:56.:48:00.

making men responsible for my urges. If I have bad urges, I will educate

:48:01.:48:05.

myself. If men have urges to rape women, I think they should be

:48:06.:48:07.

educated rather than making women responsible. Let me make this point.

:48:08.:48:15.

Vicky Beeching, 93% of the signals that we give out an nonverbal

:48:16.:48:23.

signals. We are animals, we are part of the animal kingdom. Is it not

:48:24.:48:28.

appropriate, the signals that you give out, from the way you dress? It

:48:29.:48:33.

is about being free to be yourself and not living in response to

:48:34.:48:37.

another person. Throughout history, women have been measured against

:48:38.:48:42.

men. It is about us taking responsibility in the context of how

:48:43.:48:44.

a man responds. We all need to respect each other. This is a very

:48:45.:48:49.

equal society and we need to move away from the kind of things that

:48:50.:48:53.

Alison is saying and thinking that men are animals that can only

:48:54.:48:56.

respond in a certain way. We need to give them respect as free choice

:48:57.:49:02.

makers. But we must be wise. We are wise but that is the scrum and a

:49:03.:49:06.

tree. If a woman is wearing a short skirt and a small top, men will look

:49:07.:49:10.

but what if she is wearing a fabulous dress and she looks

:49:11.:49:14.

amazing, men will give the same attention. Of course but it is not

:49:15.:49:23.

so obvious. What about men? If the guy has a rippling, much like

:49:24.:49:28.

myself, a rippling six-pack? Ask somebody else! Would you be tempted?

:49:29.:49:39.

Let me go to Younis. I need to escape from that question. You are

:49:40.:49:46.

Muslim but also in model. Some would say you are maybe caught between two

:49:47.:49:51.

worlds. I am also a presenter. Are you caught between two worlds? The

:49:52.:49:56.

question we are discussing is should women be more modest and I think

:49:57.:50:01.

there are a couple of things to say. I 100% believe in free will because

:50:02.:50:05.

of what I believe on. Do not believe that it is my place to judge anybody

:50:06.:50:08.

based on how they present themselves. I think that is

:50:09.:50:14.

important. I do not think... For most of my life I've believed that

:50:15.:50:17.

people do not judge you based on how you dressed. I was a tomboy when I

:50:18.:50:22.

was growing up. But I have learned as I have got older that that is not

:50:23.:50:27.

actually the case. The fact of the matter is there is a big difference

:50:28.:50:30.

in terms of how someone will treat me about what then the street

:50:31.:50:37.

wearing a beanie and less attractive clothing, as opposed to if Wear

:50:38.:50:42.

something that is a little bit more attractive. And I do think that

:50:43.:50:46.

sometimes people can be naive to that. But I do not, for example, if

:50:47.:50:57.

I chose to buy a Lamborghini or something different, people are

:50:58.:51:00.

going to look. I think it is important that everybody understands

:51:01.:51:05.

that how you choose to project yourself can attract more attention

:51:06.:51:09.

to you. But do not believe that that gives anybody the right to infringe

:51:10.:51:16.

your personal space. And also, I would like to say that with the way

:51:17.:51:28.

that women choose to dress, one thing that is quite interesting

:51:29.:51:31.

about what everybody said is that we tend to focus on the effects of how

:51:32.:51:36.

you dress on men as if men are going to maybe attack you. It also affects

:51:37.:51:43.

how you dress on other women. I have actually found, as a consequence of

:51:44.:51:51.

being raised Christian and practising Islam, that actually

:51:52.:51:54.

people do not seem to recognise that the way that you dress as a woman,

:51:55.:51:59.

if you are white consultations and very attractive, which is not your

:52:00.:52:03.

fault, it can cause issues between you and other women. -- quite

:52:04.:52:11.

ostentatious. And you wore a jab yesterday, Vicky? What was your

:52:12.:52:20.

experience like? -- hijab. I was aware that was going into it in a

:52:21.:52:24.

feminist setting. Eye when their not to document my own experience but to

:52:25.:52:28.

watch and learn and build relationships with Muslim friends.

:52:29.:52:33.

The main thing I've heard from them, and it is their story want to tell,

:52:34.:52:36.

was that many of them choose to wear the veil as a in a statement. And

:52:37.:52:40.

they get abused because people judge them and think that they are

:52:41.:52:47.

oppressed and suppressed. For them, that is what being a woman looks

:52:48.:52:50.

like all stop they want to say, this is my radical statement and modesty

:52:51.:52:55.

looks like this. I feel beautiful and if you like I am honouring God.

:52:56.:52:59.

That is their right and that is their feminism. I would say that

:53:00.:53:06.

absolutely that is their right. Is that the same for the Burka? It

:53:07.:53:14.

depends on personal choice. We have done that debate many times. I bet

:53:15.:53:23.

we will do it again. Vicky, it is fascinating that you found it

:53:24.:53:26.

something that was empowering. For them. I think it is reverse

:53:27.:53:34.

persecution. Many of us would put our perceptions onto people and

:53:35.:53:39.

think that that is, if a woman is closed that she needs to be rescued

:53:40.:53:44.

and brought into the modern era, but many Muslim women feel more

:53:45.:53:46.

liberated by having the freedom to wear it. Many of them told me that

:53:47.:53:51.

the husbands do not want them to wear it because they feel it

:53:52.:53:54.

reflects badly. Have you ever seen the way that somebody is dressed and

:53:55.:53:57.

thought, you should not be dressed like that? I try not to. Have you

:53:58.:54:04.

ever felt like that? I haven't. I think people should make their own

:54:05.:54:08.

expression separate from the response it will get. Isn't that

:54:09.:54:13.

part of what being British is all about? Surely our British culture is

:54:14.:54:18.

based on doing the right thing, by which mean refugees regardless of

:54:19.:54:20.

what they believe in, but also doing the right thing if you address

:54:21.:54:26.

appallingly. It is a fundamental British rights to do so. -- doing

:54:27.:54:33.

the right thing whilst dressed appallingly. My feeling is that as

:54:34.:54:38.

human beings we instantly look at somebody with our eyes and form an

:54:39.:54:42.

opinion. Whether we want to form that opinion or not, it is an

:54:43.:54:48.

unconscious or pinion. The first seconds, we have formed an opinion.

:54:49.:54:53.

-- unconscious opinion. It does not matter what they are wearing, it is

:54:54.:54:57.

human nature. We need to take a step back and get to know the person, if

:54:58.:55:02.

you have the time, to be able to form a proper opinion. I think that

:55:03.:55:09.

clothes and fashion, judgement is there all the time. The gentleman

:55:10.:55:17.

over there. Me? The apostle Paul said that all things are permissible

:55:18.:55:21.

but not all things are helpful. Adding we have talked about having

:55:22.:55:26.

our own individual freedom but also recognising the responsibility that

:55:27.:55:30.

we have to each other. Yes, when we put on certain clothes it will give

:55:31.:55:35.

out certain messages and some people will look at those things and they

:55:36.:55:40.

will not look at them as modest. They will think, habit of all right.

:55:41.:55:48.

It gives out those messages. Can I express on behalf of the men in the

:55:49.:55:51.

audience who are in Paris by this, why are we having a debate friend

:55:52.:55:58.

about women's modesty? Because yesterday was World Hijab Day. Isn't

:55:59.:56:03.

it terrible that clothing is only ever politicised when it relates to

:56:04.:56:09.

women or other clothing. I worry that I've should do more buttons up

:56:10.:56:13.

on my shirt in case I'd get assaulted. It might inflame your

:56:14.:56:20.

passion! We have rights to be immodest as well as modest. You

:56:21.:56:25.

should not what then the street wearing an offensive T-shirt or

:56:26.:56:29.

totally naked and scare people, but outside of those boundaries, why are

:56:30.:56:33.

we even worrying in the 21st century about how people choose to dress, as

:56:34.:56:38.

long as it is their choice? I lived in a Muslim country for most of my

:56:39.:56:43.

life. The jab is not always a sign of modesty. -- hijab. Sometimes it

:56:44.:56:49.

is a statement against the West, Western values and Western culture.

:56:50.:56:54.

Sometimes it is a political statement. Sometimes it is a

:56:55.:56:58.

feminist statement. Let's not put the hijab as if it is the sign of

:56:59.:57:08.

modesty. It is like the Burka or this, it is a statement. When I'm

:57:09.:57:14.

dress modestly, with or without the hijab it has nothing to do with this

:57:15.:57:22.

label, these cliches. The hijab is not necessarily because women want

:57:23.:57:25.

to be modest. They want to say something and we need to understand.

:57:26.:57:28.

Especially men. Modesty is an attitude. It is an attitude rather

:57:29.:57:34.

than how I'd dress or do not dress. Let me finish with Tom. Do you have

:57:35.:57:41.

interesting articles as well in the magazine? I am there as an editor to

:57:42.:57:47.

give people information. Is there a lot of flesh? Sometimes. But we're

:57:48.:57:53.

there to give information whether you want to take that information or

:57:54.:58:01.

not... It is not porn. It is a fashion magazine. It is about hot

:58:02.:58:05.

trends and gossip and celebrity features. We just give information

:58:06.:58:10.

about what is currently happening in those trends or with the liberty

:58:11.:58:14.

culture, and whether people choose to take that trend and where it is

:58:15.:58:18.

up to them. Final comment from anyone? I want to finish with a

:58:19.:58:26.

quick point, there is too much focus on men. I think women, sometimes the

:58:27.:58:35.

way that we dress means that we cannot connect properly with each

:58:36.:58:37.

other because we are so focused on one another... We have to leave it

:58:38.:58:45.

there. That was a hot debate. As always, the debates will continue

:58:46.:58:48.

online and on Twitter. Next week we're in Leicester, so join us then.

:58:49.:58:52.

But for now it's goodbye and have a great Sunday.

:58:53.:59:07.

Nicky Campbell presents live moral, ethical and religious debates from The Bishop's Stortford High School in Hertfordshire. The questions debated are:

Is it Britain's duty to give refuge to Syrian Christians?

Should some life sentences be for life?

Should women dress modestly?


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