Episode 5 The Big Questions

Today on the Big Question, Syrian Christian, life imprisonment. Will

and modesty. APPLAUSE

Good morning. I am Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. Today

we are live from the Bishop's Stortford High School in

Hertfordshire. Welcome everybody, to The Big Questions this morning.

Thank you very much for coming. Now, this week, the Home Secretary

announced Britain would provide refuge for round 5 hundred of the

most vulnerable strings of the war in Syria. Germany has pledged to

take 11,000 refugees under the UNHCR scheme. So far 2.5 million people

have taken refuge in camps in Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon.

Some politician, like Nigel Farage of UKIP, and Sir Gerald Howarth of

the Conservatives, have called for Britain to do more, especially for

our "Fellow Christians." It is Britain's duty to give refuge to

Syrian Christians. Alison Ruoff, why do you think Christians should be

prioritised? Because there is nowhere else for them to go, in the

Middle East. It is very difficult. Many have gone to different

countries closer to Syria, but there is still persecution, so I believe

we are still a Christian country, the majority of people, still a

majority say we are a Christian country in Great Britain, and

therefore I think we have a duty to take some of these Syrians, and I

would say, let us prioritise Christians, because they are having

such a really hard time in terms of purse kuetion. But everyone is

having a hard time Of course they are but Christians are in the middle

of it. Even is. Well... Prioritising Christian, is that a Christian thing

to do? It is in this situation. APPLAUSE

Because they are so persecuted throughout the Middle East, and

where you have had dictators in the various countries, Iraq, Egypt, and

so on, Tunisia, and where they have fallen, and been goesed, therefore

the Christians are then attacked big time. Where the dictators have been

in power, providing the drisians have kept their heads down, they

have been safe. You have had many Christians go from Iraq to Syria for

example, and now, the rise in persecution in Iraq is higher and

Christianity has been slowly wiped ou. Well quite fast now in the

Middle East. That is the birthplace of Jesus, you think what is going on

there, it is so sad for Christians to have this awful battle of being

between Shias and Sunni Muslims so the Christians are getting the worst

of it. A measure of agreement there. , Reverend Nadim Nassar why not? I

am from Syria, I afree the Syrians are having a terrible time. For the

first time for centuries we are being killed because we are

Christians. It is appalling, there is torture. Beheading with swords in

the 21st century. If we ask Jesus here, would you like your people for

prioritised and being out of the trouble he would say no. Because the

suffering, the suffering... APPLAUSE

Although I height light because I am a priest I highlight the Christian,

but the suffering of the Christians is not in any way more or, more

important than the suffering of any Syrian, every Syrian is suffer,

Christians should not be prioritises or deplaced from their home. You

said, lady, Alison. Alison, that Christians are leaving the Middle

East. So we need to support Christian, to stay in the Middle

East. That is right. That is what, suddenly, this country remembers

that the country is a Christian country, I am sorry, this country is

not a Christian country, it is a secular country with some people,

when they are desperate for an answer, they say, I am an Anglican.

It eis equal to nothing. I lived here for 16 years and I know, we

need to support the Christians, to be there. Alison Ruoff we talk of

course, about Syria, orthodox, but you still maintain they should have

priority. We are talking about 500. That is tiny, it is a drop in the

ocean. Of course everybody is suffering in Syria, it is a

nightmare. As the Christians are being so targeted, if we are going

to have any, they can at least feel safe in this country. Can I stop

you, we have a technical problem, but we are carrying on with sounds

but it sounds great on the radio. Sorry Alison, carry on. I forgot

what I was saying. That is called the age! No, so I do think, as it is

such a small number we can prioritise, we are only talking

about women and children in particular, who have had such a bad

time, so... So women and children who are not Christian, Sunni Muslims

or Shia Muslims but women and children should have priority. 500,

what difference does it make to millions of people? David. I work

for a charity called Refugee Action, we spent 30 years vetling refugee,

we did it with Kosovans, Bosnians and we Vettel about 500 people a

year from round the world. -- resettle.

Lisa Pearce you have seen what is happening, you are seeing what is

happening to Christians, across the Middle East. Give us an idea: So

right across the Middle East, I mean, it is certainly true they are

under enormous pressure, the Syrian minority is the second largest

Christian minor any the Middle East after the minority in Egypt, we have

seen on the news what has been happening to particularly, the

Egyptian Coptic church in Iran, in Iraq, these are the lands in which

the Bible was set. Iran and Iraq most of the Old Testament. The road

to Damascus. Where Paul became a Christian is in Syria, these are the

home lands of Christianity, this is not a western religion, here is not

the heartland of Christianity, it is in those nations where they are

being pushed out, in Iraq for example in the '90s there were 1.5

million Christian, through persecution, they are now down to

about 330,000. I spoke to an Iraqi church leader a couple of weeks ago,

he the up side the Government has increased the number of Soames to

put outside our church to ensure we are not attacked while we worship.

That is the up side of Christianity in the Middle East. There is

something wrong. I agree with Reverend Nadim Nassar as Christians

our two key mannedments are to love God with our heart, mind and

strength, and to love our neighbour, and Jesus made it clear our

neighbour is anyone in need. On top of that I would say we, in Syria in

particular, we need to be careful, to make sure that Christians get the

same level of support we want want everyone else to have. You don't

find the Christians in the refugee camps because they would rather live

in a broken down building or in a shed that go to a camp. Secondly,

they feel fear, and there is a lot of evidence, and a lot of anecdotele

evidence and a number of people I have met as refugees and spoke to in

Lebanon were saying they didn't want to register as refugees because they

have fear of reprisal from Assad should he retain power. So we need

to be intentional in seeking them out. Absolutely right. Culturally

speaking and from the religious background, we do not in Syria or in

the Middle East, we do not like to be in a refugee status, or go to

camps, and live in tents, what we do, is we absorb that, into our

families, churches, monastery, convents, and because of that, I

urge everybody to help us, I am the director of the awareness found day,

we have projects to help Christians in the Middle East, to stay in the

Middle East and play their role. Absolutely. Tim Aker, we know what

your leader Nigel Farage has said about this, and I mentioned Sir

Gerald Howarth from the Conservatives as well. Make the

case, if you would, because I know it is what you believe prioritising

Christians. This is still a Christian country, if asked with

what faith people identify with, it is Christianity. It has been the

British thick to do to offer safe haven. We wouldn't have this if we

controlled our borders, but we say that we should offer, it is a crisis

what is going on there, that would be made worst if Cameron had his way

and started bombing Syria, UKIP was the first party to say... That is a

debate we will have before and will have again, why prioritise a

particular religious group? There is persecution going on, we are the

first ones to say we should be a safe haven for the most persecuted.

Sunni Muslim, Shia? There are other states out from they, the Muslims

can integrate into better. Jordan, Turkey and so on, we are saying is

as a Christian country they can be better... You can't say a Muslim

couldn't imintegrate into our country. It is not to discriminate

in the UK, you don't solve it in one country by discriminating in another

country. We are talking about 500 people. Yes, the lady there, I saw

you had your hand up earlier on. Perhaps when we lost picture, but

now is your chance. I am an employment lawyer, and I work every

day on looking at issues of discrimination in the workplace, and

I have to say I am alarmed that anyone can hold a view like this,

particularly people that are magistrate, that are leaders. Former

magistrate. So, it is fundamentally unethical to differentiate on the

grounds of religion, if I were to put it to you, that we are only for

example going to take black people from a certain country or take

people of a particular sex, how would you foil about that? Because

it is -- feel about that, because it is no different these are personal

traits that relate to people, like sex, race, colour, their religious

belief should not be differentiated. Alison, I want to explore with

you... If those people you mentioned, black people, different

race, whatever, were the most targeteded in that place, then I

would take them. And it doesn't matter, we have to look after the

most % Kouted. It it is a small chance, a small opportunity do what

is is really light, and to care for Christian people. Because nobody

else will. There is a family, to give you an example it is not just

about the beliefs it is the danger they are in. It is the danger they

are in. If you read to the aid to church website. Disproportionate. A

Syrian family moved to ordand during Easter time, they had death threats

saying, you move away or we will kill you like your Christ was

killed. That is danger. That is right.

Vicky Beeching. I think it makes me uncomfortable to here Alison basing

this on the Christian faith as a Christian as well, I would say the

gospel I read is all about welcoming the unexpected person, the outsider,

that God says, the least expected poem are welcome, so for us to start

picking and choosing we want people like us, makes me unsettled on the

base of the faith. I don't think this is a Christian country any

more, row, if you look at YouGov polls it is a mixed country and I

don't think we have the right as Christians to claim it as a

Christian nation. Sorry, I have a figure here, I thought somebody

might say that so I wrote it down. A poll, 56% of people believed this is

a Christian country. I would go by church attendance. People practising

the faith. I think we have to trust the experts on the ground, in Syria,

500 people is a drop in the ocean, it is a very important drop in the

ocean, because it is such a small amount it needs to be got right. If

you faubg to the scheme, they will say how do you choose, they would

say if you target a programme like this you put more Christians at

risk, they will be worried about doing a thing because it raises the

profeel of the group in the area. So the experts would say this is the

wrong thing to do. They are not prioritising Christians, if you have

bishops from Syria, they would say do not prioritise Christians because

that would even put us in greater danger, because we are e labelled

any way agents of the west. So we are, we don't want the west to care

for us, in this way, we want the west to care for us, by supporting

us where we are, not to take us away from where we are. An interesting

concept. I want to speak to you, Tim, in a second. The concept is

almost a reflection of the Muslim idea of a Christian brotherhood, the

Christian community across the nation. People within that should

have special care. That seems to be what you were saying. Not really.

There comes a point when Christians go on turning the other cheek, time

after time, and I think there comes a point where we actually say,

enough is enough. 500 is just so tiny. If we are going to have people

who have been so badly treated and so hurt and damaged, let's look

after these people for once. We never look after them normally. The

lady at the back. You have the microphone. Good morning. I actually

think we should be pretty ashamed of ourselves for only taking 500.

Germany are taking 11,000. Your leader, Tim, has spoken about the

social impact. Do you think the social impact, it would be easier to

integrate Christians? Alison is nodding in agreement. We have a

problem in this country... We're talking about Armenian Orthodox,

Syrian Orthodox, they are not going to be joining Alison on the sin

order of the Church of England. They might. Why should they? Why don't we

respect their identity as Christians? Why should I ask an

orthodox to become Anglican in order to be a proper Christian humour I am

not asking them to become Anglican. But do not want to join this an odd.

These numbers are on a tiny scale. If we're talking about helping the

church in Syria, we need to be concerned about the fact that Geneva

is happening at the moment. It is looking at the future of Syria. The

Christian population is 10%. There is no Christian representation at

Geneva. We took a petition of 300,000 concerned people to the UN

and met with all five of the permanent missions before Christmas.

All of them acknowledge that the church is not there and they were

not represented. They said they do not know what to do about it. That

is not good enough. The UK plays a key role in the Security Council and

we should be putting more energy into making sure that there are

Christian voices at the table. Not disproportionate representation,

their representation. Secondly, our aid is to strip you to... There is a

political point. -- our aid is distributed. We're talking about

persecution in danger. Who paraded that? The West aided Al-Qaeda to be

in Syria. The double standards of the West. On one hand, Al-Qaeda is a

terrorist organisation and on the other hand, Al-Qaeda is OK in Syria

because Al-Qaeda is fighting Assad. I want to ask one more question of

Alison. I would like to make this the last point. Bishop Nad-e-Ali and

George Keely and others, we have heard this line of thought that

distance in this country are persecuted. Marginalised. Do you

condemn those words? No. When you look at Syria, do you not think it

cheapens the term? Do not think that Christians are being persecuted in

this country but it is marginalisation and it is becoming

more and more. Ultimately, that will lead to prosecution if it is allowed

to continue. What will happen? We will become anything but a Christian

country. That is not persecution. It is a case of you being able to say

anything about Christians, mocking God as much as you like in this

country. Say something about all our, Islam, and you have the biggest

row possible. -- Allah. There's been a kerfuffle this week about

something that happened on the programme a of weeks ago. We are

doing religion and God next week. I will have to comeback! It is never

too soon. Thank you all very much indeed. We have to leave it there.

If you have something to say about that debate, logon to

bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, and follow the link to where you can

join in the discussion online. Or contribute on Twitter. We're also

debating live this morning from Bishop's Stortford. Should some life

sentences be for life? And, "Should women dress modestly?" So get

tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other ideas or

thoughts you may have about the show.

Last summer the European Court of Human Rights ruled that British

Justice Secretaries could no longer issue or uphold "whole life orders"

to some convicted murderers. They said such sentences were inhuman and

degrading unless there is the possibility of an earlier review or

release. The case upheld an appeal brought by whole-life prisoners

Jeremy Bamber, Douglas Vinter, and Peter Moore. Between them, these

three men were convicted for 11 murders. Currently 50 prisoners are

serving whole life tariffs in England and Wales, including Ian

Brady, Dennis Nilsen and Robert Black. Should some life sentences be

for life? Rupert Myers, let me remind you what the European Court

said. If you take away any chance of sentence review release, whatever

your crime, it is inhumane and degrading. Yes. And that was under

Article three of the European Convention which was originally

designed to deal with cases of torture and very severe

incarceration. It has been broadened in this judgement, I think, to

include those 50 or so people locked up out of a prison publishing of

85,000 in the UK. It is important to remember that for almost every

prisoner, they will be released and rehabilitated. The European Court

said they should be given hope. They all have that hope as has been

argued at the moment. Because they can all appeal to the Secretary of

State on grounds of compassionate release. We're not talking about 50

murderers because people who just commit murder, and I'm sorry to say

that but we are talking about a very inclusive section of the prison

publishing, they are released on licence. These 50 are mostly people

who have gone on to commit further at Russia's acts on licence,

including murder and child abuse. We're talking about people who have

already had that possibility of redemption and rehabilitation and

they have abused that privilege and gone back into incarceration. And

they can still appeal for compassionate release. People like

Robert Black, saying he should be given hope and the possibility of

review and release. You think, why should a man who kidnapped little

girls and dumped their bodies by the motorway, why should he be given

hope? From a Christian perspective? I dealt with a life sentence in my

church. And I've visited the person more than once. The family really

suffered, really really suffered, to get the message to the court and the

system that this person might need a hospital rather than a prison. And

after a fight, for years and years, from the worst prison, they move

this person to a hospital and in the hospital, his situation changed

dramatically. I've visited him and they know him personally. -- I know

him. God works through us with redemption. Why should Robert Black

be given hope? All human beings are entitled to hope. John, Penny, your

daughter was 26, the mother of imaging, who was eight months old.

Murdered by her partner. -- Imogen. He was already on bail for assault

and rape. Does he deserve hope? Absolutely not. He has been jailed

for life but it is no life. It is part of his life. My daughter lost

her life and he did not respect human rights, her right for basic

survival. He did not respect his daughter's right to have a mother to

bring her up. And yet here he is with hope that in 27 years time, he

could get out of prison. He was jailed for life but life does not

mean life. And this is where a lot of victims that I'm representing

today are saying that life should mean life. Do not call it a life

sentence in court if it does not mean life. More people should be on

the whole life tariff or they should instigate, David Cameron had this

idea of sentencing people for 100 years without review until 80 years

into the sentence. They should come out of prison in a wooden box. There

has to be a deterrent factor in the sentencing system. Because capital

punishment is not on the agenda, whole life tariffs are the next

thing that will prevent people from thinking about committing

atrocities. Deterrent is about changing. There is actually no hope

for change. For a start, it is a punishment system, not... But if the

punishment is they are... What Penny said, the only way they should come

out of prison is to use her words, in a box. As a Christian, how do you

respond to that? I am in Christian. My heart is broken for the situation

that occurs, but everyone of us as to identify with our own following

this, and I'd have to look at the people who commit these crimes and

think, that could be me -- fallenness. In the Christian

tradition, it is repentance, making a turnaround. These offenders have

already shown that they are willing to take a human life. But the result

was hope for change. I'm sorry. These people have already taken a

human life and the thought of the offenders that have killed our

daughter and other people's loved ones, the thought of them getting

out, our fear is that they will reoffender, that he will be freed to

be a perpetrator again, a predator again, because he will, we have no

doubt about it, latch onto the next woman he finds and that lady will

find herself in the same position. Lynne and Mick, your son was

murdered in 2002. The people who murdered him have not shown any room

or s am I think I'm right in saying that. One of them was released and

went straight back in, and yet you believe that there should be the

possibility of review and release for these murderers. I've changed my

mind, really. I would said the exact same thing as John and Penny but you

can only go by your own experience and for us, for years after Paul was

killed, were asked to go into prison and share our story with the men

there. And they were all from the life unit. It was like meeting the

people who had killed our son. But they were not what we were expecting

and we were not what they were expecting. It was a powerful meeting

of victims and offenders. And between us, I think we help each

other. We come from a positive position, and we have received

comfort. We have had hundreds of letters of the change that has taken

place in the lives. We believe in restorative justice and redemption.

The possibility for all murderers? It has to include everyone. Although

the possibility is there, the parole board and the review board is there

to safeguard against extreme violence and extreme cases. For us,

we do not go that far. You can only do what you do and we see a lot of

hope in the prisoners. We have spoken to thousands of prisoners and

many of them are very positive because they have never had the

realisation of what their crime was about. A lot of them, in a moment,

if they had the moment again would never commit the crime. In the

instance of a premeditated murder where it is calculate it and

cold-blooded, it seems inherently wrong that somebody who was prepared

to take someone's human rights to life can then rely on human rights

legislation to protect them and give them hope in their life that they

may be released. As victims, we are living that life sentence. On the

outside. It affects us everyday, the pain and suffering that we go

through constantly, knowing what happened to our loved ones. We need

to know that the people who carried out these atrocious crimes are

getting punished and are being dealt with and that we will be protected

by his incarceration or whoever it is, that the public are protected in

the future. Let us go to the audience. Gentleman

there at the back. I think the language of life sentences is

unfortunate. The punishment for theft is not theft, and the

punishment for rape is not rape, but if we take someone's life but do we

as a society have the right to take that person's life? I don't think we

can say... That is not what we are discussing. I don't think we can say

capital punishment is off the table and yet someone should leave prison

in a box. There should be a deterrent. It was a similar point to

that. I want to... Tim Aker. A system of law where the, they see

somebody who has committed a terrible crime and they are given a

sentence, but they don't serve that sentence. Can't people change? If it

is a life sentence it should mean life. The sentence should mean what

it says, if you are given eight years you serve eight years. You

don't understand the point. We are not talking about people who have

committed criminal offence and been sentenced to life. We are talking

about a small number of prisoners who are given release and on

license, commit further offence, so it isn't a case of deterrence, these

people who have been in jail. Know what it is like and commit murder

again. I think it is really, I think in

such a serious era, I think one of the main things that is jumping out

to me is this idea when people go to jail, and they are incarcerated. I

think there is something seriously wrong in the terms of the

rehabilitation process, regardless of how long that person is in jail,

and regardless of what the crime is s because from what I have studied,

there are many poem who go into jail, they commit a crime. They come

out. They get stuck in a cycle and they commit the same act again,

whether that is theft... Someone who might be able to address that is

Richard. You were in for murder, it was a robbery, what would the effect

be if hope was taken away for more prisoners than at the moment, in the

criminal justice system? If it was taken away? It would... For me, How

do you mean, a mess? It would create a blood bath. If you take hope away

from prisonerings and just say that is it, that is your lot, life means

life, you are never getting out, do what you like, they will. They will

do exactly what they like, they have nothing do but keep them in jail. So

that light... That light at the end of the tunnel keeps order, are you

saying that? Yes No. He has been in prison. What is the value of life

when you have no hope? You can kill, you can kill yourself, you can kill

other, you can do everything. Do whatever you like. Can you do better

than jail? Alison Ruoff. I think, I have visited many prisons over the

time I was a magistrate, and admittedly I couldn't send anyone to

prison for life, but at the same time, I actually feel having visited

these people, they are doing all sorts of amazing things in prison,

lifer, they are doing degrees and further degrees, and... What, go on.

They are getting so much support, they don't have to worry, I agree, I

would also impose life meaning life on people who shoot police officers

doing their job. It should mean life. As a committed Christian, if

somebody were to find Jesus and totally transform their life, would

would you not welcome their position in the community so they can spread

the world. Of course. That would involve... Jesus, you know, he God

appeared to him and he was used to further the church. He wrote half of

the New Testament. Is that is not a redemption story and a story God can

turn the life of anybody round, I don't know what is. People have a

choice on how they behave. If they are willing do that may must take

the consequence, and if they are jailed for life they should be

jailed for life. Sorry, Penny might be was trying to come in earlier. .

I saw you agreeing with Richard's point if hope was taken away. There

would be chaos, what I wanted to say was victims now do have an

opportunity to have a restorative justice meeting with the victim, and

all I can say is that has been a person who has taken that place,

with many prisoners, there is an atmosphere and electricity when an

offender and a victim come together, and the results from it are

absolutely wonderful. Penny, what do you think? I agree that restorative

justice has a place within the justice system. It is not for

everyone. It is not for everyone. How do we decide which prisoner

could be released or not? If there is no rehabilitation, plus

punishment, what you are talking about out of hurt, we understand and

appreciate, but with the punishment system, there should be

rehabilitation, and hope system. So Dennis Nilsen he must have hope?

Everybody must have hope. I have seen the cooking pots in the museum,

where Dennis Nilsen actually cut up his victims, and had them on the

cooker, I have seen the cooker, the whole lot. Would you let that man

out? Of course not. Why not? Wait, Vicky Beeching you say why not? I

think again on a Christian foundation, the gospel is based on

transformation. Why is anybody beyond the help of God? What you are

saying is here God is not powerful enough to change that person's life.

Father, people may have dremion in the afterlife and you may believe

that, but rates of reSid vism among these people suggest that in real

life there are people with serious social logical and psychological

conditions who are best for our protection in a hospital, not

necessarily a prison but are kept there for the rest of their lives

for the public safety. APPLAUSE.

Think we are confusing two issue, we are confusing the issue of hope with

the eschew of taking appropriate measures to ensure the safety of the

public, I think in terms of hope, if we don't want anyone to deny us hope

we can't deny hope to other people. I think we cannot make a decision...

Would it be good to deny hope to Dennis Nilsen? We can't make a

decision to deny hope, because otherwise we might be on the

receiving end, on the other hand, if people, if people are in the process

of possibly being let out of prison, it is our duty and the Prison

Service's Dowty to make sure those people are not in endangering the

public, clearly we have to do so. Speaking as a prison chaplain. I was

agreeing and saying it is something that has to be reviewed. Nobody

should be let out of prison if there is the experts believe there is any

significant chance of them reoffending. That hoz to be

different from saying I am punishing you buzz of my grief. There are

murderers who were escaping, the police immediately put out warnings

not to approach these people. What were they doing in an open prison?

Let us ask the audience. Why not use hope as a method of control. So give

Dennis Nilsen hope but only as lip service keep him controlled in

prison. Yes, with the glasses. Morning. Morning, it sound like as

we have heard from Richard, that if we deny people hope, what we are

doing is imposing a kind of capital punishment.

Is that, is that, Richard says it is a life sentence. Tim Aker, what do

you think about that point? If you commit the worse crimes you should

be in there for life. Think of the victim, think of the public safety,

those should be the two chief considerations.

When it comes to sentencing. What about, what about... Sorry John. Why

are people more concerned with the hope of people who commit these

crimes, then for the victims life, they have taken, they have no longer

got the hope of living out their loved, living with their loved one,

the victim, their family, their friends, their colleagues, they are

condemned to look back at what happened. What about Imogen, as a

final thought? She was eight months old. Is she four or five now? Hang

on, I am talking about the little girl. Absolutely. He came to kill

that baby the day after he murdered our daughter. His car was full of

petrol, and he had lighters and matches and he wasn't a smokerings

he had no means of removing that baby safely in that car. To us, it

is the worry that this man may get out in the future -- smoker. And the

danger that he will put other people, like our daughter in,

because he cannot possibly be rehabilitated. He is a predator. You

know, we have to be seen as a country, if we have got a credible

justice system we have to make sure that the sentences given are life

sentence, must mean life it is a joke. That people are murdering and

getting out. Thank you all very much indeed.

APPLAUSE Thank you.

You can join in all the debates by logging on to the website. Follow

the link to the online discussion, you can tweet using the hashtag.

Tell us what you any about our last Big Question as well. Scores have,

the question is should women dress modestly, if you would like to be in

the audience as a future show you can e-mail the address below.

This is why we are discussing it, should women dress modestly.

Yesterday was World Hijab Day. So should women follow that example,

and dress modestly, Sarah, you have some concernsn't, don't you, you are

not, it is always down to perpetrator of a crime, it is not a

question of don't be raped, it is a question of don't rape. You make

that very clear, are you concerned about the way some women dress? What

I would say is when we are talking about modesty, it is a bigger

question, because it is about what is a human being? A human being is a

mystery, a combination of matter and spirit, and something mysterious and

wonderful and beautiful, so if we are asking how in of any of us

dress, we have to say what does it say about who I am, what I am trying

to be. Modesty is about how I look at other people, so it is in any

eyes and yours looking at me, whatever we are wearing, so my

concern would be more with the commercialisation of the appearance

of women to make them lock like objects, so what they are trained to

wear, what children think it's a good idea to wear, is making them

lock a little bit more like objects we should lock at differently. Isn't

this in danger of edging towards the view of the sqrelz, the temptress,

you think it is opposite of that? I think it is. It is saying we are

responsible for how we choose to appear the other, and no-one is

imposing how anyone else should dress, I welcome World Hijab Day,

because it gives people the chance to say we choose to express our

femininity in in way and it is something interior, but not saying

that anybody should be imposing what you wear, I am saying be aware of

how it expressing your interior life, your interior life is

important, we are in a world that is obsessed with exterior appearances.

Is modesty empowerment? . It is an empowerment. It is a fruit of the

Holy Spirit. In the Catholic sense, it is how you become who you are, it

is a grace. It's a grace that expressing how do I become even more

this mysterious thing that is spirit, that is sexual, this is

matter, and it is an open conversation about how I look at you

and how you look at me and what we become.

One second please. I know lots of people are dying to

come in. I want to speak to Tommo. You are the editor? I am the editor

in chief of an online magazine called Hot Hot. We tell people what

trend are going on and work as a photographer for loads of fashion

brands round the world, and I guess I am in charge of creating an image

at the end of the day. But, you know, if the question should women

dress more modest? I mean, no, I mean people should dress the way

they want. As you said, you know, it is, it is, you know you are putting

for Bard your personality, when you wake up and go and do whatever you

are doing, you put on whatever you think, whatever you are comfortable

in. That is what fashion is about. The culture you are creating with

your magazine, I am not saying we shouldn't have it, but we have to be

aware the effect it has, all of us are desperate to be liked and

approved of so some extent. Modesty is a statement of how much can I be

detached from how I ought to dress? The kind of shift that is taking

place because of the accept built of your kind of magazine means young

girls who put YouTube clips out saying am I hot or not? Children are

obsessed with their sexuality. I didn't think of it when I was 16,

they are obsessed to that. You have added to that. Think I think you

were thinking of that when you were 16. I thought about my A-level

results, I thought about having having fun, singing, playing the

magistrate. Alison, you were a magistrate, if somebody came in and

had been, assaulted or whatever, and would you make a judgment based on

the way they had been dressed? If they were standing before me, the

victim? You probably would not see the victim necessarily. You cannot

absolutely say that but... The defence mentioned it. Is that a

factor? It might be? How. Absolutely not. S blame. If I was sitting on

the tube and icy people with black tights and leggings and a skirt...

-- absolutely not. I feel that we have to be careful. If the top is up

to here and the people sitting opposite see the black tights but

there is a gap, that is not helping any man sitting opposite. Thank

heavens you have retired as a magistrate! That is outrageous.

Women must think of how they are looking. Let her finish. Women must

consider these things. You say it is not fair on men? Are men are

uncontrollable animals? Are we being sexist? Say what you like but men

are completely different... I can't, believe you me! Men are completely

different from women. Men are switched on like that. Wait, wait

stomach men and women are fundamentally different in that way?

Men can be switched on and women cannot? It puts the onus on the

women, which throughout history has happened, especially in the

tradition of Christianity. If you look at and indeed, Eve was called a

temptress. Women have been given the responsibility to make things OK for

men and many to have the responsibility. We need to address

how we choose. Let's go to something more modern. Modesty is described

for women, defined by society, by men. This is the scrum and nation

against women. Do not think we should allow that. I think there

should be certain mores. If I go into the synagogue, I would expect

men and women to dress respectably of the place they are in. But to

make women responsible for the urges of men is a bad state. I am not

making men responsible for my urges. If I have bad urges, I will educate

myself. If men have urges to rape women, I think they should be

educated rather than making women responsible. Let me make this point.

Vicky Beeching, 93% of the signals that we give out an nonverbal

signals. We are animals, we are part of the animal kingdom. Is it not

appropriate, the signals that you give out, from the way you dress? It

is about being free to be yourself and not living in response to

another person. Throughout history, women have been measured against

men. It is about us taking responsibility in the context of how

a man responds. We all need to respect each other. This is a very

equal society and we need to move away from the kind of things that

Alison is saying and thinking that men are animals that can only

respond in a certain way. We need to give them respect as free choice

makers. But we must be wise. We are wise but that is the scrum and a

tree. If a woman is wearing a short skirt and a small top, men will look

but what if she is wearing a fabulous dress and she looks

amazing, men will give the same attention. Of course but it is not

so obvious. What about men? If the guy has a rippling, much like

myself, a rippling six-pack? Ask somebody else! Would you be tempted?

Let me go to Younis. I need to escape from that question. You are

Muslim but also in model. Some would say you are maybe caught between two

worlds. I am also a presenter. Are you caught between two worlds? The

question we are discussing is should women be more modest and I think

there are a couple of things to say. I 100% believe in free will because

of what I believe on. Do not believe that it is my place to judge anybody

based on how they present themselves. I think that is

important. I do not think... For most of my life I've believed that

people do not judge you based on how you dressed. I was a tomboy when I

was growing up. But I have learned as I have got older that that is not

actually the case. The fact of the matter is there is a big difference

in terms of how someone will treat me about what then the street

wearing a beanie and less attractive clothing, as opposed to if Wear

something that is a little bit more attractive. And I do think that

sometimes people can be naive to that. But I do not, for example, if

I chose to buy a Lamborghini or something different, people are

going to look. I think it is important that everybody understands

that how you choose to project yourself can attract more attention

to you. But do not believe that that gives anybody the right to infringe

your personal space. And also, I would like to say that with the way

that women choose to dress, one thing that is quite interesting

about what everybody said is that we tend to focus on the effects of how

you dress on men as if men are going to maybe attack you. It also affects

how you dress on other women. I have actually found, as a consequence of

being raised Christian and practising Islam, that actually

people do not seem to recognise that the way that you dress as a woman,

if you are white consultations and very attractive, which is not your

fault, it can cause issues between you and other women. -- quite

ostentatious. And you wore a jab yesterday, Vicky? What was your

experience like? -- hijab. I was aware that was going into it in a

feminist setting. Eye when their not to document my own experience but to

watch and learn and build relationships with Muslim friends.

The main thing I've heard from them, and it is their story want to tell,

was that many of them choose to wear the veil as a in a statement. And

they get abused because people judge them and think that they are

oppressed and suppressed. For them, that is what being a woman looks

like all stop they want to say, this is my radical statement and modesty

looks like this. I feel beautiful and if you like I am honouring God.

That is their right and that is their feminism. I would say that

absolutely that is their right. Is that the same for the Burka? It

depends on personal choice. We have done that debate many times. I bet

we will do it again. Vicky, it is fascinating that you found it

something that was empowering. For them. I think it is reverse

persecution. Many of us would put our perceptions onto people and

think that that is, if a woman is closed that she needs to be rescued

and brought into the modern era, but many Muslim women feel more

liberated by having the freedom to wear it. Many of them told me that

the husbands do not want them to wear it because they feel it

reflects badly. Have you ever seen the way that somebody is dressed and

thought, you should not be dressed like that? I try not to. Have you

ever felt like that? I haven't. I think people should make their own

expression separate from the response it will get. Isn't that

part of what being British is all about? Surely our British culture is

based on doing the right thing, by which mean refugees regardless of

what they believe in, but also doing the right thing if you address

appallingly. It is a fundamental British rights to do so. -- doing

the right thing whilst dressed appallingly. My feeling is that as

human beings we instantly look at somebody with our eyes and form an

opinion. Whether we want to form that opinion or not, it is an

unconscious or pinion. The first seconds, we have formed an opinion.

-- unconscious opinion. It does not matter what they are wearing, it is

human nature. We need to take a step back and get to know the person, if

you have the time, to be able to form a proper opinion. I think that

clothes and fashion, judgement is there all the time. The gentleman

over there. Me? The apostle Paul said that all things are permissible

but not all things are helpful. Adding we have talked about having

our own individual freedom but also recognising the responsibility that

we have to each other. Yes, when we put on certain clothes it will give

out certain messages and some people will look at those things and they

will not look at them as modest. They will think, habit of all right.

It gives out those messages. Can I express on behalf of the men in the

audience who are in Paris by this, why are we having a debate friend

about women's modesty? Because yesterday was World Hijab Day. Isn't

it terrible that clothing is only ever politicised when it relates to

women or other clothing. I worry that I've should do more buttons up

on my shirt in case I'd get assaulted. It might inflame your

passion! We have rights to be immodest as well as modest. You

should not what then the street wearing an offensive T-shirt or

totally naked and scare people, but outside of those boundaries, why are

we even worrying in the 21st century about how people choose to dress, as

long as it is their choice? I lived in a Muslim country for most of my

life. The jab is not always a sign of modesty. -- hijab. Sometimes it

is a statement against the West, Western values and Western culture.

Sometimes it is a political statement. Sometimes it is a

feminist statement. Let's not put the hijab as if it is the sign of

modesty. It is like the Burka or this, it is a statement. When I'm

dress modestly, with or without the hijab it has nothing to do with this

label, these cliches. The hijab is not necessarily because women want

to be modest. They want to say something and we need to understand.

Especially men. Modesty is an attitude. It is an attitude rather

than how I'd dress or do not dress. Let me finish with Tom. Do you have

interesting articles as well in the magazine? I am there as an editor to

give people information. Is there a lot of flesh? Sometimes. But we're

there to give information whether you want to take that information or

not... It is not porn. It is a fashion magazine. It is about hot

trends and gossip and celebrity features. We just give information

about what is currently happening in those trends or with the liberty

culture, and whether people choose to take that trend and where it is

up to them. Final comment from anyone? I want to finish with a

quick point, there is too much focus on men. I think women, sometimes the

way that we dress means that we cannot connect properly with each

other because we are so focused on one another... We have to leave it

there. That was a hot debate. As always, the debates will continue

online and on Twitter. Next week we're in Leicester, so join us then.

But for now it's goodbye and have a great Sunday.