Episode 6 The Big Questions


Episode 6

Moral, ethical and religious debates on these subjects: Is it time for the Vatican to confess?; Is trophy hunting good for conservation?; Are some topics too sacred for humour?


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Transcript


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Today on The Big Questions: The Vatican versus the UN. Big game

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hunting. And, is religion funny? APPLAUSE

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Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. Today

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we're live from Samworth Enterprise Academy in Leicester. Welcome

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everybody to The Big Questions. This week the United Nations

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Committee on the Rights of the Child issued a damning report on the

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Vatican's handling of child abuse within the Catholic Church. It

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called for the Vatican to remove all suspected clergy from their posts

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and to refer them to the police. Is it time for the Vatican to confess?

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Colm O'Gorman, author of Beyond Belief, and also a victim of Father

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Sean Fortune, are they still withholding information?

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Undoubtedly. It is clear that the Vatican were asked to supply to the

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committee last year detailed information about their handling, or

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the handling of child abuse cases. They failed to do that. The Vatican,

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the Vatican has had an interesting response to the report in which it

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suggested that the report didn't consider all of the facts. The

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Vatican was 14 years late submitting its information to the Vatican. The

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Vatican is withholding information. The reality is... What information?

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Are priests currently abusing, or historical cases? Both. We know that

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the Vatican jealously guards information at its own level. It is

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said to the committee, its defence for not supplying information to

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committee, it only shares information on these kinds of cases

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in national jurisdictions where legal processes are in train. At the

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same time it refused to share information to two state inquiries

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being carried out be a judge in Ireland, so it is being disingenuous

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in how it engages with the committee and responds to its report. The

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Vatican has failed to put in place under Canon law the kinds of

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measures that would properly protect children and would ensure that the

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Vatican and the Catholic Church is compliant with its obligations under

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the UN convention on the rights of the child. This was a UN committee

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inquire ring to the rights of children that the holy sea ratified

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and adopted and should be bound by. The hack should... It is a strange

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construct where it has a quasi- status at the United Nations. The

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holy sea signed the convention. The Vatican is inclined to claim

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different legal personalities. It has so many different personalities

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it jumps from one to the other, often as a way of avoiding

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responsibility. The holy sea said, we signed the treaty as the

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Government of the Vatican state. The committee rejecteded that notion and

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said no, that is true that that's one of your entities, but you are

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also the ultimate authority across the global Church and you can and do

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direct the functioning of practices and parishes across the world and

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the obligation of the treaty must apply to the Church at the global

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level. Ultimately in short do you believe that the Vatican, the Kath

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allege church, is still hiding and withholding information that should

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be released? It is undoubtedly doing that. Undoubtedly? Absolutely. We

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need to get the information... The fact that at this time refused to

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hand over information shows that it is failing to hand over information

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in an appropriate way. More importantly this report mirrors the

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findings, in state investigation and judicial inquiries and grand juries

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across the world. That is that the Catholic Church has, in the

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interests of protecting the institution, its authority, its

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money and its position, failed to protect children and has covered up

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and facilitated child sexual abuse on a grand scale.

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APPLAUSE On a grand scale. A litany of disgusting, heinous and

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unforgivable crimes, has it been sorted? I hope we all recognise

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these are disgusting crimes and there is a concern for everyone here

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for the protection of children. That was why this UN report was a

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travesty of ignorance and ideology over sheer facts and evidence. When

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we look at the nature of the Vatican, something never taken into

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account by the committee, which ignored the evidence that the Holy

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See gave to the committee. The Holy See and the Catholic Church isn't a

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multinational organisation, it is a hugely decentralised Holy Communion

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of different Churches. Where disgusting abuse has happened, what

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Pope Benedict called the filth of what happened, there is no evidence

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that it happened on a Vatican level, it is utter nonsense. The reason why

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we know that, the way that the actual Church works is when the CDF,

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the congregation of the doctrine of faith, which has responsibility for

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this, it is supposed to make sure that procedures are carried out. Not

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that in each case something happens, but the canonical case in each

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diocese, that means that the report fed back to the Vatican itself. That

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is utter nonsense. They don't have files, they have copies. That is

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utter nonsense. You don't know what you are talking about. I do

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actually, I've worked in this for 20 years. You should have worked harder

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then. Thank you for the insult! We discovered in an inquiry that took

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11 years in Ireland that at the Vatican level were detailed reports

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of internal inquiries and investigations into individual acts

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of abuse which were held at the level of the Vatican. Which were

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copies. So they held files. So you now acknowledge that the Vatican

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holds very detail d files. Copies of files. Are people... Sorry Nicky,

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one quick point. Since 2001 and beforehand, the Vatican asserted is

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its authority for deciding how cases are to be handled. Yes. And when

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actions are taken at the national or local level, often those that for

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instance that disciplinary action is taken against appeals against and

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the Vatican is the final arbitrator there. The notion that the Vatican

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doesn't instruct what happens at the local or parish level is nonsense.

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Talk to any priest who has dared to talk, or Bishop, about issues like a

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priest marrying oar LGBT rights and you will find that at the level of

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the Vatican they swoop in with extraordinary force in a way that

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(Inaudible) APPLAUSE Some people believe there

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is no transparency. Cardinal rats I thinker for Pope Benedict collected

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all of this information. Has all of that information been released? The

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CDS... The police want to file they can go to the local diocese. I have

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to connect this, there are three levels on which the Vatican's

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authority over local diocese, the canonical procedures, the doctrine

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and liturgy. Those aren't things that... Surely Pope Benedict read

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them? He did much more than anyone else and passed on this

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information... To the police? It is not his job to do that at the level

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level. No they didn't. ALL TALK AT ONCE

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Richard Scorer, author of Betrayed: The English Catholic Church and the

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Sex Abuse. In crisis. There is seems to be a camera diction between we

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are centralised, decentralised e, we abide by Canon law. There is There

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is evidence of a cover up, and there is a simple way the Pope and the

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Vatican could deal with this. They could direct that all allegationses

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have to be reported to the police and civil authorities. They won't do

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that. They did, in 2010. As a lawyer they have a legal obligation you

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believe to do that? Is what the Catholic Church has said is you must

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obey the law of the land. If a Catholic Bishop knows about abuse by

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a priest, he has no obligation to go to the police. That will come if the

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Vatican give as clear direction that that has to happen. First of all,

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all of us in the Kath lick church -- Catholic Church accept there was

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horrible abuse and there was a cover-up. As a mother of four

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children I can't begin to contemplate how that must feel...

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Can I ask you one question, this has been going on for decades, they knew

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about it in the 1960s and 70s' and 80s. Why wasn't anything done about

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it then? There are a couple of reasons. Just to come back... Can

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you come back to that? I want to come back to the point that Colm

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said. I think it wasn't fully understood what was happening. A few

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things went on, none of which were excusable. What do you mean? When

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you find out that one of your colleagues have been abusing your

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children, priests who are known and loved, the first reaction is denial,

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that this couldn't have happened. A second reaction, and again it was

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the wrong reaction, I think when certain cases came to light, various

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diocese engaged with their lawyers, who realised that a lot of money

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needed, rightly, to be paid out in compensation. And they engaged in

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legal terms which meant not talking to the victims, stone walling them,

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not putting their hand up and saying, we are sorry. And not fully

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understanding the nature of paedophilia? I think so, in as much

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as... Surely knowing that molest egg a little boy was wrong. Of course

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they would know that that was wrong. We are a Church of forgiveness and

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there was a lot of naive I, when somebody said, I'm sorry... With

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enormous respect. Can I continue? With enormous respect, because I

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understand where you are coming from, the first law was introduced

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in the Catholic Church against priests in the 14th century. The

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first reference was from the second century. Catholic Church history is

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littered with law which the Catholic Church tried to address child sexual

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abuse, sometimes in respect of eliminating it or trying to protect

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the institution. In the 1940s the Vatican established a congregation

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whose only support was to provide support to priests with psycho

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sexual problems. The head of that congregation had told the Vatican,

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had told the Pope, that priests who had offended dependence children

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even following treatment shouldn't be returned to parishes, because

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they would continue to abuse. He said that granting them new parishes

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like granting them green pastures in which they would continue to abuse.

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What went wrong? It is a myth that the Catholic Church didn't

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understand the nature of paedophilia 30 years ago. I dealt with case

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where the Catholic Church got clear medical evidence from psychiatrists

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that a particular priest was at risk of offending and he was allowed to

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continue working with children. Caroline said they didn't understand

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the nature of paedophilia. They took out insurance against the risk of

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compensation claims 30 years ago. Why take out insurance against

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something if you don't think it is a rievg?

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APPLAUSE Reverend Canon David Jennings wants to come in with a

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non- perspective. I'm an Anglican, not a Catholic. The Anglican church

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is by no means immune from some of the things we are discussing. Nor

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the BBC. I wouldn't dare mention the BBC. I want to mention how

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institutions turn in on themselves to protect themselves. We saw the

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NHS, the Mid-Staffordshire crisis, the Army, where they don't deal with

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rape claims. All institutions have an ability to turn in on themselves.

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I think that's the kind of thing that needs to be looked at

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critically and exposed, because it is very damaging to individuals,

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such as was described and others know too well. It takes away any

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credibility that the institution has if it can't openly face and admit

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its own short comings. APPLAUSE Caroline? Just as the

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diocese of Chichester in the Anglican church has recently as two

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years ago has admitted it had huge safe guarding problems, no-one is

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suggesting that Canterbury hoarded all the information. In Ireland

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there've been three states reports into the problem of child abuse.

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There are reports that the Catholic Church didn't fully investigate.

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# They investigated about 86 of cases. In every one of those 86

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cases it was shown that no information was sent to the Vatican

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about this until 2005. This is what my report... I am quite familiar

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with this. In 2005, the first Amendment talked about the

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Vatican's central responsibility. The Vatican had distributed

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information to bishops about how cases were to be handled. As part of

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that policy, people were sworn to absolute secrecy. It talked about

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the failure of the Vatican to make its dieses win of this phenomenon at

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a time when it knew not only of the phenomenon, what the dangers

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associated with it. That was in 2005. The enquiry dealt with about

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28 priests in total. It dealt with hundreds of victims. The report

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dealt with thousands of victims. We are talking about for major state

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investigations. It ran for 11 years. If I may, let's speak to Evon

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Brennan. What experience did you have in those industrial skills? I

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am an ex-pupil of an industrial system of 18 years. My

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Brennan. I and thousands of other people have gone through the system.

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We people have gone through the system.

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ideas of what the book says. This is physical abuse, sadism? Yes, but I

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would like to talk about the legacy of the damage, the ripple effect of

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what the institution has done to thousands and millions of people.

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For example, the church is supposed to give comfort, love, it is

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supposed to to give comfort, love, it is

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of innocent children, it gave them the opposite to that, it gave them a

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life of destruction, loathing of their bodies, it indoctrinated them

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about complete hate. It actually bred hate. I would like to find out,

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what does the Pope do with regards to all of the innocent minds that

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were affected from very very young. This innocent mind has grown with

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hate, with destruction, this innocent mind has then married, and

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it has spread eight. The Catholic Church has spread the disease. How

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do we reach all of these people who have been disease by the system? How

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deep is this? It is very deep, and it takes years. It is still there.

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How can you possibly get rid of something that was ingrained? In

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order for it to go, you have to go back and you have to abolish it. You

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have to say, where did it go wrong? You have to go back to the basics.

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What does Catholicism mean? How do you become sacred? Through

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persecution? Through abstinence? I think this confuses the fight. It is

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important to listen to experiences like this. There have been terrible

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abuses by Catholics, but to blame the entire Catholic Church for

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that, I think it is a mistake. The vast majority of Catholics have

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never hurt anyone. This is why the UN committee had a real

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responsibility to bring out a report that would have had constructive

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things to say. Is that not why all the files should be released? It did

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not do that. It brought out this prejudiced report. It said to the

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church that it should change its teaching on abortion. People like

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Uganda have had horrible abuses of human rights. This is something

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which is totally misunderstood, the nature of the Church, in terms of

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its responsibilities on a local level. The report made unacceptable

:18:54.:19:00.

claims about the church's record and human dignity. We should all be

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concerned with the rights of the child. Let's get the audience. It

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would appear to me and to most right-thinking people that there has

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been a systematic cover-up within the Catholic Church, to cover up

:19:15.:19:21.

these vile abuses of children. In what other walk of life would it be

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right to have someone do something that morally wrong in one place, and

:19:26.:19:29.

say, we will cover that up and move you to somewhere new? They are not

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doing that any more. It is a disgrace. One of the limitations of

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the report is that it did not mention that particularly in the UK

:19:44.:19:48.

and the US, we have had 15 years of Gold standard, best practice. It has

:19:49.:19:57.

created a climate of fear. What Evon Brennan said was incredibly

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powerful. What happened to you, no Christian could condone. Think of

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the Bible, anyone who causes one of my little ones to lose faith, the

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better have a millstone around their neck. But what we saw in Ireland,

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the state colluded with some of these institutions. They were not

:20:16.:20:25.

monitored by anyone. If in the confessional, a priest says to

:20:26.:20:27.

another priest, I have been doing this, is there an obligation to make

:20:28.:20:34.

that information public or give it to the police? What is said in the

:20:35.:20:45.

confessional has to be sacred. Why? If somebody is genuinely penitent,

:20:46.:20:50.

we all go to confession, and we go to confession because we want

:20:51.:20:57.

we all go to confession, and we go forgiven, and we want to amend our

:20:58.:20:58.

lives. These are unforgivable. If you are genuinely repentant, Father,

:20:59.:21:04.

I abused a child, you will go to the police. As a growing child, who is

:21:05.:21:14.

becoming adolescent, and the child says to the priest, I touched

:21:15.:21:19.

myself. What does the priest say to that? This is magical. The Catholic

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Church has completely enjoyed -- has completely denied the enjoyment of

:21:30.:21:34.

one's body. That has been the problem. With it is the Anglican

:21:35.:21:42.

Church, the Catholic Church or any other, how do you actually select

:21:43.:21:46.

priests and determine whether they are suitable? That procedure has

:21:47.:21:51.

very much been sorted out. Thank you all very much for your contributions

:21:52.:21:58.

on that debate. If you have something to say about that debate,

:21:59.:22:00.

log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and follow the link to where you can

:22:01.:22:04.

join in the discussion online, or contribute on Twitter. We are also

:22:05.:22:07.

debating live this morning from Leicester, is trophy hunting good

:22:08.:22:10.

for conservation? And are some topics too sacred for comedy? So get

:22:11.:22:14.

tweeting or emailing on those topics now or send us any other ideas or

:22:15.:22:18.

thoughts you may have about the show.

:22:19.:22:23.

Today, the Prince of Wales and Prince William issued a video

:22:24.:22:26.

highlighting the plight of elephants, rhinos, tigers and other

:22:27.:22:28.

species hunted for their ivory, their bones or other saleable body

:22:29.:22:35.

parts. Britain is hosting a big international conference on the

:22:36.:22:37.

illegal wildlife trade this Wednesday. But there are some voices

:22:38.:22:40.

suggesting that properly licensed hunting can help conserve rare

:22:41.:22:49.

species. Recently a permit to shoot an elderly black rhino in Namibia

:22:50.:22:52.

was auctioned for $350,000, money which will be ploughed back into the

:22:53.:22:55.

local community and its wildlife protection projects. Is trophy

:22:56.:23:05.

hunting good for conservation? I am delighted to say that we have

:23:06.:23:13.

Professor EJ Milner-Gulland. There are some estimates that 50,000

:23:14.:23:16.

elephants were lost last year to poaching. Clearly these are

:23:17.:23:22.

threatened and endangered species. Over 1000 rhinos killed last year.

:23:23.:23:27.

How does selling permits to hunters to kill these beautiful animals save

:23:28.:23:32.

them? It does seem counterintuitive, but there are a

:23:33.:23:40.

number of examples were if it is properly managed, trophy hunting can

:23:41.:23:45.

have successes. I have done work with brown bears in Croatia. Trophy

:23:46.:23:51.

hunting is run with local hunting associations. Bears or annoying

:23:52.:23:56.

neighbours to have because they destroy your property and eat your

:23:57.:24:00.

beehives and things like that. Because it is locally done, the

:24:01.:24:05.

compensation comes straightaway, and the population of beers is stable.

:24:06.:24:10.

Across the border in Slovenia, it is ruled by EU la. It is the same

:24:11.:24:17.

population of beers, and bears are protected. And yet 20% of their

:24:18.:24:21.

population were shot as problem animals, because the people were

:24:22.:24:27.

annoyed with them. That compares with 8% in Croatia. This is a good

:24:28.:24:33.

example of where if trophy hunting is well managed, it can make a

:24:34.:24:38.

difference. The animal is seen as an asset to the local community.

:24:39.:24:51.

Exactly. You have come from Kenya, Doctor Paula Kahumbu. If you kill an

:24:52.:24:55.

animal to save a species, that is surely for the greater good, money

:24:56.:24:57.

will be ploughed into the community? Why do you not believe

:24:58.:25:04.

that argument? Several reasons. I think it is ironic. It is like

:25:05.:25:10.

saying during the famine of the 1980s, when Ethiopians were

:25:11.:25:14.

starving, it is like having a fundraising event were your stuffing

:25:15.:25:19.

your face. And eating competition. It is confusing for the people on

:25:20.:25:24.

the ground. In Africa, where these animals are being shot, it is not

:25:25.:25:29.

well-managed. Secondly, it runs counter to the value system.

:25:30.:25:35.

European values, sport hunting, killing animals for fun... Are those

:25:36.:25:43.

not African values? Absolutely not. Animals may be killed because they

:25:44.:25:46.

are part of an initiation ceremony, or problem animals, but hunting

:25:47.:25:51.

animals as a blood sport is not one of the values. There has been a

:25:52.:25:57.

massive outrage because of the rhino in Namibia which is going to be

:25:58.:26:03.

shot. People were so upset. It was all over the Internet. It was an

:26:04.:26:10.

elderly, aggressive rhino. The animal is aggressive because it is

:26:11.:26:16.

in a confined space. You cannot call it conservation when these animals

:26:17.:26:20.

are being bred in little farms. They are contained in farms for the

:26:21.:26:24.

purpose of hunters. That is not conservation. Having 1 million

:26:25.:26:30.

rhinos for the benefit of these elite hunters coming in for the

:26:31.:26:33.

United States or Europe, that is not conservation. Conservation is where

:26:34.:26:38.

you are protecting the animals and the landscape. The communities that

:26:39.:26:45.

live with these animals, and that happens in Kenya where we do not

:26:46.:26:49.

allow this, I am not saying it is perfect, and we do not have all the

:26:50.:26:54.

solutions, but Kenyans are saying that the sport hunting fraternity,

:26:55.:26:58.

it would be the equivalent of Kenyans coming to the United Kingdom

:26:59.:27:02.

and saying, we allow certain drugs in our markets, let's impose them on

:27:03.:27:07.

you because we can make money out of it. This is a cultural imposition?

:27:08.:27:16.

Charlie Jakobi, Hunter, owner of this Beales -- owner of the sports

:27:17.:27:25.

hunting channel. What have you killed in Africa? I have shot

:27:26.:27:31.

antelope and the zebra. This rhino that is going to be shot. It is a

:27:32.:27:38.

lot of money. $350,000. Lots of rhinos saved. Can you imagine how

:27:39.:27:44.

many animals you can save if you have $350,000. Is that where the

:27:45.:27:52.

money goes? Yes. Describe the enjoyment of shooting a rhino? It is

:27:53.:27:57.

a very complicated thing. One thing to get right about this first of

:27:58.:28:02.

all, in Britain, we have a different view of how we should animals. We

:28:03.:28:07.

like the idea of the rogue animal, the leopard that has taken the

:28:08.:28:14.

child. Second is pest animals, then edible animals. In America, it is

:28:15.:28:21.

the other way around. Trophy animals are the most important thing. What

:28:22.:28:27.

is the enjoyment? Take us through this elderly rhino? It is

:28:28.:28:34.

complicated. I will do my best. You'll leave your house with your

:28:35.:28:37.

gun, you have a landscape in front of you. This is the rhino I am

:28:38.:28:45.

talking about? Take that as an example, you're out on your farm in

:28:46.:28:50.

Namibia. You see the landscape and suddenly everything is much better.

:28:51.:28:56.

You often hear people that -- say that they are there for the

:28:57.:29:01.

stocking, not for the kill. It is a much more exciting way to see the

:29:02.:29:05.

world. Then there is the bit where you pull the trigger. A friend of

:29:06.:29:11.

mine described it as 99% late on and 1% horror. If you're an American,

:29:12.:29:20.

you want the rhino on your wall. If it is me, I get to cook the rabbit,

:29:21.:29:26.

if it is a rabbit. When the animal false, there is a feeling of

:29:27.:29:31.

completion? Why do you not shoot it with a camera? It is not the same.

:29:32.:29:35.

Hunting goes back thousands of years. We sat around campfires in

:29:36.:29:44.

the Stone Age. We did not talk about decorating. We spoke about who got

:29:45.:29:53.

the biggest animal. Is it a good idea to get people to pay a lot of

:29:54.:29:57.

money to kill a member of a species to save a species? Let's put it into

:29:58.:30:02.

some con decks, Nicky, because we are talking about -- into context,

:30:03.:30:08.

Nicky, because we are talking about 1,500 elephant licences, 600 lions

:30:09.:30:15.

being killed, going to the United States. Those who are supporters of

:30:16.:30:18.

trophy hunting will say it is good for the local community, because it

:30:19.:30:21.

provides employment. Very weak statistics on just how many people

:30:22.:30:26.

it really does ploy. I give you a good argument on -- that it employs.

:30:27.:30:37.

I can give you a good assessment. The UN says 3% of money goes into

:30:38.:30:42.

local communities. The bottom line is it is all about an elite wishing

:30:43.:30:49.

the put the head of an animal on their wall. The head of a lion...

:30:50.:31:01.

APPLAUSE Go on, Charlie. In Kenya sports hunting was banned in 1997

:31:02.:31:07.

and the lion and rhino population have fallen by 90% since then What

:31:08.:31:15.

about Botswana which has banned trophy hunting and not for a year,

:31:16.:31:20.

it has been banned until populations recover. The reason it has been

:31:21.:31:24.

banned is because the Minister herself said the reason it has been

:31:25.:31:30.

Banned is because wildlife populations are in decline and

:31:31.:31:33.

trophy hunting is playing a major role than that. No they are not. You

:31:34.:31:43.

are muddling poaching and hunting. Where do they go? The main reason

:31:44.:31:50.

why many of Kenya's and Africa's big five are in trouble today are

:31:51.:31:53.

because of hunting. I'm not talking about the last ten years but

:31:54.:31:59.

historically. The reason why Kenya put in a ban on the hunting of

:32:00.:32:04.

wildlife is because populations of the animals were already collapsing.

:32:05.:32:10.

So hunting, think about it, in the 1800s and 190 #0s, el fancifuling

:32:11.:32:16.

being hunted at the rate of 100,000 a year, by sport hunters. At that

:32:17.:32:20.

time there were no proper regulations. Africa's elephants

:32:21.:32:28.

declined from 25 million to just a few hundred. But they weren't paying

:32:29.:32:34.

it back into conservation. Top police stations collapsed because of

:32:35.:32:38.

sport huntling, so now to turn it around and say, guess what, I'm the

:32:39.:32:44.

champion of conservation. Sorry, but Africans don't buy that. They've

:32:45.:32:47.

never been hunters in this way. And they are not really paying it back

:32:48.:32:53.

in any significant way now. $300,000 is not significant? Wait for it. The

:32:54.:32:59.

total wildlife-based tourism income for Kenya alone is a billion US a

:33:00.:33:05.

year. 165,000 people employed in it. The total according to Safari Club,

:33:06.:33:12.

not the most reliable source, is 200 million. 100 from South Africa

:33:13.:33:19.

alone. It is incomparable. It behoves me to come back to you at

:33:20.:33:25.

this point. You love animals. I do. How do you feel when you see there's

:33:26.:33:29.

quite a lot of stuff goes around on the internet and Twitter of people

:33:30.:33:34.

posing the beautiful lion that they've shot? Does that make you

:33:35.:33:39.

queasy or do you think, not much? That's not something I would

:33:40.:33:42.

personally want to do. What do you think when you see the photograph?

:33:43.:33:46.

It is not nice. But let's think about conservation and Rhinos. I

:33:47.:33:54.

agree with Paul o that over the course the century sport hunting was

:33:55.:33:59.

the major cause of the decline. The western black rhino was declared

:34:00.:34:05.

extinct two years ago. In Namibia they hold 9 of the -- 90% of the

:34:06.:34:15.

subspecies they have. It is well regulated. It is not true in other

:34:16.:34:21.

countries, but perhaps in Namibia and South Africa, rhinos are a

:34:22.:34:25.

conservative story and a lot of it is due to trophy hunting. Nicky,

:34:26.:34:30.

there is a problem when you talk about South Africa. EJ is right,

:34:31.:34:34.

southern Africa has a different model, and that's shifting, most

:34:35.:34:39.

dramatically with the recent declaration in Botswana. In South

:34:40.:34:43.

Africa the hunting story, which did look so good, has been quickly

:34:44.:34:48.

compromised by criminal cartels by Asia. The poachers? No, hunting.

:34:49.:34:53.

What they are doing is brilliant. These people are much smarter than

:34:54.:34:57.

the rest of us. They come and buy a hunting permit, which costs maybe

:34:58.:35:05.

$20,000, for a rhino, to get the horn of the rhino, which is worst

:35:06.:35:10.

about $1 million. You buy up all the licences, had you have people that

:35:11.:35:14.

shoot like this, because they are not hunters. They brought in

:35:15.:35:18.

prostitutes at one point. They started with Thai, Vietnamese and

:35:19.:35:23.

now even Polish hunters. They shoot like this, injury the animal and the

:35:24.:35:28.

outfitter has to finish off the animal. They take off the horn, they

:35:29.:35:32.

stick it on a wooden plaque. They declare it and they export it with a

:35:33.:35:36.

legal licence, because the value of that horn is monumental compared to

:35:37.:35:40.

the price of the actual hunt. People think it makes them virile when they

:35:41.:35:45.

slaughter? And then it goes to Poland and then to the Far East. So

:35:46.:35:52.

it is stimulating illegal trade. I heard you say a few moments ago, why

:35:53.:35:58.

not give the money straight away. You grew up in Kenya? I grew up in

:35:59.:36:04.

Kenya. I watched animals hunting in the wild. I loved elephants. To

:36:05.:36:09.

think my grandchildren might not see those elephants breaks my heart. If

:36:10.:36:14.

they care so much about conservation, why can't they just

:36:15.:36:17.

give the cash? APPLAUSE I will go up to my next

:36:18.:36:23.

American millionaire and ask why don't you hand over your $350

:36:24.:36:35.

million. And tell him to get a life. How does putting a bullet through

:36:36.:36:41.

the animal's head make you a man? It is fun and millions of people do it.

:36:42.:36:46.

You don't know me. I have killed a rabbit which had myxomatosis and was

:36:47.:36:50.

suffering. I killed it to put it out of its misery. I will kill an animal

:36:51.:36:54.

if I need to eat it if I'm in the wild, but just for the fun of

:36:55.:36:58.

killing it and watching it die, it makes me subhuman.

:36:59.:37:04.

APPLAUSE Anyway, is there anyway this could help stop the illegal

:37:05.:37:10.

trade? So much money's going into, coming from the poachers through the

:37:11.:37:15.

Chinese and Vietnamese cartels and Triads, there's AK-47s, night vision

:37:16.:37:21.

glasses, massive amounts of money. A slaughter frenzy at the moment. Is

:37:22.:37:26.

there anyway that some of this money can combat that? Yes, the money from

:37:27.:37:32.

trophy hunting, from that rhino that's going to be killed in Namibia

:37:33.:37:38.

is going into anti-poaching. They had two Rhinos killed through

:37:39.:37:42.

poaching last year compared to the 1,000 in South Africa. Once they run

:37:43.:37:49.

out in South Africa, the guys will go to Namibia. It is managing to

:37:50.:37:54.

fend it off soar far. In South Africa they have a massive problem

:37:55.:37:59.

with poaching, separate from trophy hunting. With the point about the

:38:00.:38:03.

fake legal hunting permits, had it is legal in as much as it is not

:38:04.:38:07.

biologically unsustainable but it is fuelling the illegal trade. South

:38:08.:38:11.

Africa has closed the loophole with Vietnamese citizens. They are trying

:38:12.:38:16.

to strengthen... Something I want to address is this concept, people may

:38:17.:38:23.

have heard of it, I will try to come to audience contributions, explain

:38:24.:38:27.

this idea of canned hunting. It is used a lot with lions. It is breed

:38:28.:38:33.

lions in a compound and then rich Americans or whoever come and pay a

:38:34.:38:37.

lot of money and the lion is released on the last day of the

:38:38.:38:41.

safari from the compound and the gullible person shoots. The lion is

:38:42.:38:46.

used to human hands. Is a lot of this going on? A huge amount. It

:38:47.:38:53.

almost exactly is as you described. Your tourist hunter goes in on a no

:38:54.:38:58.

kill no fee basis. There is no fair chase. There is no opportunity for

:38:59.:39:03.

this animal to get aye. -- to get away. Is this animal used to humans?

:39:04.:39:10.

It is taken around in a circuitous route in order to make it feel like

:39:11.:39:15.

the guy is on a hunt and there's the animal and they shoot it. The

:39:16.:39:19.

problem with that is that the trophy hunter takes the head home and the

:39:20.:39:22.

body is left behind. The body is stripped of the meat. The skeleton

:39:23.:39:27.

is legally sold, because these are captive-bred animals, so they don't

:39:28.:39:30.

fall under the same regulations as wild animals. They are sent to the

:39:31.:39:37.

far east, to Laos. In 2009 five skeletons were exported. In 2011,

:39:38.:39:43.

494 skeletons were exported to Laos. This is going to have a massive and

:39:44.:39:49.

detrimental impact on wild lion populations across Africa. The

:39:50.:39:52.

consumer market doesn't care where they come from. How many are left?

:39:53.:39:58.

Between 25-30,000. 1,600 a year are killed by trophy hunters. I agree

:39:59.:40:05.

with Will. I think canned hunting is unsporting and I don't like it

:40:06.:40:10.

Because there is no contest? It is a difficult word to describe, but

:40:11.:40:14.

there is no sport. No sense of the landscape, of the shooting should.

:40:15.:40:20.

There is no sense of the (Inaudible) Why are you laughing, Will? You

:40:21.:40:27.

stand 300 metres away with your high-powered rifle. I didn't say

:40:28.:40:31.

high-powered. You look through the scope and you take out that animal

:40:32.:40:35.

at 300 metres. Where's the sport in that?

:40:36.:40:43.

APPLAUSE Just on this point, I don't think Will be be subscribing to your

:40:44.:40:51.

YouTube channel. Can something like that, if the money doesn't go into

:40:52.:40:57.

the commercial hand and pay for swimming pools, can we get to a

:40:58.:41:00.

situation where more of that money goes into conservation? Is that your

:41:01.:41:05.

battle? Canned hunting that nothing to do with conservation. My battle

:41:06.:41:10.

would be to make sure that landowners and Governments who hold

:41:11.:41:14.

these kind of endangered species in trust for all of us are effectiven

:41:15.:41:18.

the support they need to be able to protect them. That involves not just

:41:19.:41:24.

anti-poaching but empty of demand in consumer countries. I think will's

:41:25.:41:28.

-- I think Will's point about the bonus is important. If these are

:41:29.:41:32.

getting into the illegal trade, that's an issue that needs to be

:41:33.:41:36.

addressed by trophy hunters and Governments and anyone who cares

:41:37.:41:39.

about these endangered species. Thank you. We have to leave it

:41:40.:41:46.

there. Some very interesting stuff. You can join in all this morning's

:41:47.:41:49.

debates by logging on to bbc.co.uk/the big questions and

:41:50.:41:52.

following the link to the online discussion. Or you can tweet using

:41:53.:41:55.

the hashtag #bbctbq. Tell us what you think about our last Big

:41:56.:41:58.

Question too - are some topics too sacred for comedy? If you would like

:41:59.:42:04.

to be in the audience at a future show, you can email

:42:05.:42:07.

[email protected] We're in Edinburgh next week, Oxford on 23

:42:08.:42:10.

February, and Peterborough the week after that.

:42:11.:42:17.

. This weekend Leicester launched its

:42:18.:42:23.

21st comedy festival. In a city famous for being the most

:42:24.:42:26.

multicultural in Britain, it must often be tricky for comedians to

:42:27.:42:29.

raise a laugh without offending somebody in a Leicester audience. As

:42:30.:42:33.

we know all too well, it can be a difficult line to tread. Are some

:42:34.:42:44.

topics too sacred for comedy? When someone makes a joke about God or a

:42:45.:42:49.

cartoon or whatever, clearly it is not offending God. Clearly God is

:42:50.:42:54.

bigger than that. Surely it is only offending the people who want to be

:42:55.:42:58.

offended. Otherwise don't look at it. I don't think that we want to be

:42:59.:43:04.

offended. We worship that God, or respect that prophet, or love that

:43:05.:43:09.

person or that book or whatever. We feel hurt because we have a deep

:43:10.:43:13.

affection for whoever we are talking about, whether it is God or a

:43:14.:43:17.

prophet. We have love and affection for them the way we have love and

:43:18.:43:21.

affection for our parents or children. I wouldn't be able to

:43:22.:43:29.

tolerate somebody making fun of my father. Lots of people don't believe

:43:30.:43:32.

God exists, so for lots of people the jury's out or in, and for lots

:43:33.:43:37.

of people there is no jury, but your family exist. Number one for us, God

:43:38.:43:43.

and the prophets are real, so it is not like this is something ethereal.

:43:44.:43:49.

I understand that, but for others they aren't. We have to show respect

:43:50.:43:51.

and courtesy Tote people around us. they aren't. We have to show respect

:43:52.:43:57.

That's what makes us human being. We know how to survive around people.

:43:58.:43:59.

Our job isn't to say what we like regardless of the other person, as

:44:00.:44:05.

long as I make the money from my next joke routine. Citizen Khan on

:44:06.:44:12.

the BBC, I love him to bits, the programme. The Life of Brian? I

:44:13.:44:16.

didn't find that funny. I found that quite offensive. But it wasn't about

:44:17.:44:22.

Jesus but Brian. Yes, but a lot of the jokes there weren't.

:44:23.:44:29.

APPLAUSE Shouldn't we be more careful not to offend people of

:44:30.:44:37.

sincere faith like grat gratuitously? The American

:44:38.:44:40.

journalist once said one should respect the other man's religion in

:44:41.:44:46.

the same way once believes his wife and children are beautiful and

:44:47.:44:50.

intelligent. She is right, in overday life we don't go around

:44:51.:44:53.

saying what we like to anybody and just abusing people. But the point

:44:54.:45:00.

of comedy is that transaggression to escape from the little constraints

:45:01.:45:03.

that we put on ourselves every day. We laugh exactly because we we think

:45:04.:45:07.

there is something that is said that maybe I thought, maybe I once

:45:08.:45:13.

occurred to me and I didn't say it. Laughter is a release in a lot of

:45:14.:45:27.

ways. I can remember in the 1980s, there were lots of little jokes

:45:28.:45:33.

around sex abuse in Ireland. In some way, it was a way of dealing with

:45:34.:45:36.

the fact that no one else was dealing with it. We knew there was

:45:37.:45:42.

something going on. We thought, at least we can laugh at these people,

:45:43.:45:49.

if nothing else. It is a great way of pricking pomposity? Exactly. That

:45:50.:45:55.

is the point of comedy. Not to offend, but to make people think a

:45:56.:46:02.

little bit. If you can use comedy, for example, I do gags about

:46:03.:46:13.

Muslims. You are Muslim? Yes. I do gags about other religions as well.

:46:14.:46:20.

I went to see a Buddhist pantomime the other day. Somebody shouted out,

:46:21.:46:34.

he is beyond you. What about Pakistan, where there is a blasphemy

:46:35.:46:39.

law? Are we in danger of having one through the back door here? I have

:46:40.:46:44.

just come back from Pakistan three weeks ago. It is a beautiful place

:46:45.:46:49.

with some very beautiful people. There are some very liberal people.

:46:50.:46:57.

But on the subject of blasphemy, there are people who think you

:46:58.:47:02.

should be killed. That is a place not to go to for stand-up comedy. It

:47:03.:47:08.

is going to take a long time for them to understand that stand-up

:47:09.:47:14.

comedy is a device. Comedy is a device for discussing subjects,

:47:15.:47:18.

satire. Is there a danger that we will get that attitude kid if we are

:47:19.:47:21.

too sensitive to people sensibilities? People overreacting?

:47:22.:47:30.

Muslims love to overreact anywhere. It is the hot spices that weed, I do

:47:31.:47:35.

not know! But we have to be very careful. Religious people have to be

:47:36.:47:41.

careful not to take offence. When I see a comedian making fun of his

:47:42.:47:47.

mother in law, I know that he is not making fun of his mother-in-law, he

:47:48.:47:53.

is just making fun of the concept. But when God and the profit coming

:47:54.:47:57.

to the picture, people take it personally. -- the prophet. We have

:47:58.:48:09.

to be careful. You are right writer first bliss programmes, -- you are

:48:10.:48:17.

right for some marvellous programmes. Was there anything in

:48:18.:48:21.

The Life Of Brian that you find offensive? I thought it was

:48:22.:48:26.

hysterical, but as a Christian, I found the crucifixion scene

:48:27.:48:32.

difficult. I have been writing a book recently, retelling some Bible

:48:33.:48:37.

stories. I have focused on the earlier parts, Adam and Eve, and

:48:38.:48:45.

Noah and his Ark. When you get to the cross Andy Christy fiction, it

:48:46.:48:49.

is like someone making a joke about your mum who has died in a car or

:48:50.:48:53.

something. As a comedian and performer, I defend the right to do

:48:54.:48:59.

whatever jokes you see fit, play the room, because I like to try and make

:49:00.:49:06.

the most amount of people have as good a time as possible, which means

:49:07.:49:11.

not targeting people. Other comedians like to do that. But I

:49:12.:49:15.

think people should vote with their feet. If they do not like that, see

:49:16.:49:21.

someone else. Is there not a difference between targeting a

:49:22.:49:25.

race, which is unacceptable, and targeting a belief system,

:49:26.:49:30.

religion? You cannot account for offence. As a comedian, you could

:49:31.:49:37.

do, why does the chicken cross the road, and there could be a farmer in

:49:38.:49:42.

the studio who has had his chicken run over and he may not like that!

:49:43.:49:51.

What about Scientology? I think I have probably done jokes about that

:49:52.:49:57.

at some point. You have got to think, with the laugh along with it.

:49:58.:50:03.

Probably not. It depends on the approach you take. There are ways of

:50:04.:50:09.

doing it. David Jennings. I do not think that religious faith needs a

:50:10.:50:14.

great deal of protection. If it is sincerely held, people will hold it

:50:15.:50:18.

no matter what anyone says about it. But there is a difference between

:50:19.:50:22.

being able to make a joke about religious faith and setting out to

:50:23.:50:27.

be gratuitously offensive. I think there is a difference. Give me an

:50:28.:50:32.

example where someone has been gratuitously offensive in comedy? I

:50:33.:50:38.

cannot think of anything. Not off the top of my head. But if you said

:50:39.:50:43.

something obnoxious about Jesus, just because you wanted to say

:50:44.:50:47.

something obnoxious, that would be gratuitously offensive. Then do not

:50:48.:50:54.

read it, do not watch it? Comedy can give you an insight into religion

:50:55.:50:59.

that can be helpful. It puts it into a different context. That can be

:51:00.:51:05.

positive. It does not need all that protection. Any comedy, we need to

:51:06.:51:10.

remember that it runs the risk of offending somebody. It depends on

:51:11.:51:18.

the attention -- the intention of the person making the joke. Let's

:51:19.:51:22.

get some audience reaction. Good morning. That is the microphone from

:51:23.:51:30.

above. The thing you have to remember about comedy and humour, is

:51:31.:51:34.

that the reason something tends to be funny is because there tends to

:51:35.:51:38.

be some truth behind it, as minimal as that might be. Perhaps it is

:51:39.:51:43.

interesting that when comedians poke fun at religion, there is maybe

:51:44.:51:48.

something to think about. The people being offended should maybe think

:51:49.:51:54.

about something being said. You're far too young to remember Dave

:51:55.:52:02.

Allen. Check it out online. Dave Allen used to make fun of religion

:52:03.:52:06.

all the time. The gentle man over there. Good morning. I was just

:52:07.:52:12.

going to mention Dave Allen. Keep old fun at religion all the time.

:52:13.:52:18.

Mainly Catholicism. Yes, but let's just call it religion. He saw the

:52:19.:52:24.

absurdity and religion. Let's face it, we are asked to believe in a

:52:25.:52:28.

talking snake, we are asked to believe that there was a directive

:52:29.:52:32.

to kill witches. We are asked to believe that the prophet could hold

:52:33.:52:39.

back the night. We are asked to believe that another prophet flew

:52:40.:52:49.

from Mecca to Jerusalem. You say it is baloney? We are told that

:52:50.:52:58.

documents of tombs got up and walked around the town. You can choose not

:52:59.:53:04.

to believe it. Finally, we are also asked to believe that the young

:53:05.:53:15.

women was debauched by a ghost. -- a young woman. The whole thing is

:53:16.:53:21.

absurd. There are some messages that comedy can bring out that are

:53:22.:53:24.

difficult to touch upon another whizz. But for many people, face

:53:25.:53:30.

forms a big part of their identity, so to mark what they believe... For

:53:31.:53:37.

example, my face makes me respectful and inspires me to do good. My faith

:53:38.:53:44.

inspires letting me. If someone wants to more clad, I would find it

:53:45.:53:49.

difficult. That said, people can have different comedic case. That is

:53:50.:53:54.

perfectly fine. How do you feel about this? I want to pick up on

:53:55.:54:01.

something that was said. When people giggled about the abuse crisis in

:54:02.:54:05.

Ireland, that is how it got covered up. It was seen as funny. It clearly

:54:06.:54:13.

was not funny. Generally, when we say, are some topics to sacred, who

:54:14.:54:20.

decides? As a Christian, I believe that my faith is historically

:54:21.:54:27.

accurate. I believe that everything that Christianity teaches is true

:54:28.:54:32.

and can be proven. Because of that, it should be subject to test. What

:54:33.:54:39.

did you think about the Monty Python song? Every... Is Sacred. It is a

:54:40.:54:57.

scream. A friend of mine sang the solo on that. It is annoying in that

:54:58.:55:04.

it completely represents -- completely miss resents the Catholic

:55:05.:55:09.

Church. But it is funny. It is a release? Yes, it is a release. It

:55:10.:55:16.

tells you something. The Life Of Brian, it allows you to have another

:55:17.:55:26.

insight into the nature of Jesus. If we look at Moses. Jewish people,

:55:27.:55:30.

Christians, Muslims, we all believe in Moses. For 40 years, he took the

:55:31.:55:38.

children avengers -- and the children of Israel and wandered

:55:39.:55:42.

around the Sinai Desert. What kind of sad NAFTA date have? -- what kind

:55:43.:55:56.

of sat nav did he have. In the Muslim community, we have a thriving

:55:57.:56:01.

gay community, or as I like to call them, clerics. You mentioned at the

:56:02.:56:20.

start, is there an attempt to bring in a blasphemy law. We only abolish

:56:21.:56:23.

that in this country a few years ago. I was in Northern Ireland last

:56:24.:56:31.

week were a controversy sprung up over a play by the reduced

:56:32.:56:35.

Shakespeare Company. People got upset that there is an nearly got

:56:36.:56:50.

the play band. People said, you would not say this sort of thing

:56:51.:56:53.

about the Koran. What they really meant was, we want you to be as

:56:54.:57:00.

scared of our religion as others. People are saying, we own this, no

:57:01.:57:05.

one else can touch this. We are the only that hold the truth. If you try

:57:06.:57:10.

to look at it differently, and make fun of it, then you must be stopped,

:57:11.:57:16.

because you have offended my truth. Who makes that decision? I would

:57:17.:57:22.

just like to say, it is important that religion is out there and

:57:23.:57:26.

talked about. If you say that we cannot talk about this and that,

:57:27.:57:29.

you're wiping it from the debate table. The comedy club is a place

:57:30.:57:37.

where we tell jokes. I am doing a show in Leicester tomorrow night. I

:57:38.:57:41.

will be talking a bit about religion. The Bible is the most

:57:42.:57:46.

shoplifted book in the world. Some people think that the Bible should

:57:47.:57:51.

be taken, literally! Why not talk about these things? 20 seconds.

:57:52.:57:58.

Freedom of expression is a vital right. The only limits that should

:57:59.:58:04.

exist on that is if there is an incitement to hatred or violence.

:58:05.:58:08.

Nobody has a right not to be offended. People should engage in

:58:09.:58:13.

those moments where they feel offended, because that is where real

:58:14.:58:17.

discussion can happen. Thank you all very much. I am sure you have sold a

:58:18.:58:27.

few tickets, good luck. Likewise. As always, the debates will continue

:58:28.:58:30.

online and on Twitter. Next week we are in Edinburgh, my home town, so

:58:31.:58:34.

join us then. But for now it is goodbye and enjoy your Sunday.

:58:35.:58:49.

It's your job to keep law and order, isn't it?

:58:50.:59:01.

It must be exciting being a policewoman. It has its moments.

:59:02.:59:05.

Nicky Campbell presents live moral, ethical and religious debates from the Samworth Enterprise Academy in Leicester. He asks:

Is it time for the Vatican to confess?

Is trophy hunting good for conservation?

Are some topics too sacred for humour?


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