Episode 10 The Big Questions


Episode 10

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Today on The Big Questions: the snoopers' charter.

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Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions.

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Today we're live from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow.

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Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

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On Tuesday, the House of Commons will debate the "snoopers' charter",

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The bill will seek to define precisely what the security services

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and law enforcement can get up to online.

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New powers to examine a year's worth of our internet browsing history

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or to identify a journalist's sources are just two

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Big Brother will truly be watching you.

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Of course, the people whose job it is to keep us all safe have long

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been able to steam open letters and tap phones,

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provided they have the appropriate permissions.

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The argument goes that if we communicate in new ways,

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Will the snoopers' charter make us safer?

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Naomi McAuliffe, from Amnesty International Scotland, welcome to

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The Big Questions. You have deep concerns about this one. In what

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ways could it be abused? The concern is that there is no judicial

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oversight over this. Some of what they are taking on, they are putting

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in independent adjudicator on this, but the problem is that a lot of

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this surveillance already goes on. This was an opportunity in the bill

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to make sure there was proper oversight of it. So that when

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surveillance is being used, and it is being used, but it has to be

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targeted and used when there is reasonable suspicion of individuals

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as well, having mass and bold surveillance means that plenty of

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innocent people, in fact everyone, everyone sitting here and

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watching at home, will have their internet and communications looked

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at. And we need to think about the ramifications for that and the

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chilling effect that will have on how we communicate with each other

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and operate in society. The average person on the street is not going to

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have their material looked at by the Government. What this law says is

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that communication service providers, the people who provide

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your phone and internet, must keep that material for a year, so that

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should there be reasonable grounds, adjudicated by a Minister of State

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and by a judge, to determine that we need to look at that information

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because something has gone on, then they can look at that. The same way

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that you can go into someone's houses they have committed a crime

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with a warranty. It is not the same as that. This is an independent

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judges that we are talking about and we are asking for this independence.

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It is not the same as the warrant. A lot of these things would be signed

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off without that kind of oversight. The fact that it is this bulk

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collection of data means that it does cover everyone. Is that a

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euphemism? Bulk collection? Mass surveillance? There is a phrase that

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I want to explore. Anything that is contrary to economic well-being.

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That could be anti-fracking protesters, environmental

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protesters, animal rights protesters, antinuclear protesters.

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Peter, is that the concern? It is a big concern. A real problem with

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this legislation is that it purports to be targeted when in fact it is

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mass surveillance. The argument is it is not mass surveillance. But

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everyone in this room, everyone in the country will have their internet

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search histories, other forms of communication... What internet

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search histories? For some people that will be criminal it in, but for

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others, no names, it will be embarrassing! But for most just

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utterly boring. All of that information, it is being held by

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private companies already, by Google, Apple, big companies, being

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used to make profit. Somehow we trust them to get on with doing it

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but now we have a Government with the necessary rights to prevent

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crime to keep people safe who are not going to hold that data. Do you

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trust the state? I do, yes, because I know that the people deciding to

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make these decisions are elected officials, so that is already the

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first step. That the people you are choosing to represent you will be

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the people... I spoke to a former Home Secretary, a liberal minded

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man, who said no matter how liberal you are, if you sit in that desk as

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Home Secretary, some of the stuff that comes across your desk, you

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lose your notions of being liberal. No politician wants something to

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happen on his watch. It is just human nature. They call it a mission

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creep and it will go further and further. But you do have a series of

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checks along the way. The authority that is making the decision to

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conduct a piece of surveillance against an individual must justify

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that through a series of checks. That has got to be reviewed by a

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tribunal and should someone feel that surveillance power has been

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used against them unfairly, they can appeal. Again because this is the

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internet, we are talking globally. In America for example we have had a

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lot of Draconian laws brought in after 9/11 and they are trying to

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roll back on some of those surveillance programmes. From

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Amnesty International's point of view this goes beyond the British

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borders. We have been spied on by the British intelligence services.

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We know this because of a court case and they held our data too long and

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that was the only reason we knew about it, they broke their own

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rules. We get information from people around the world who are

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living in repressive regimes and who have had human rights violations

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against themselves or have documented that, and that

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information is being spied on and potentially passed on to third

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parties, that means there is a chilling effect on people will not

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pass on information. It affects lots of areas of life. Lawyers have said

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that if their communications with clients are being looked at, that

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would undermine the right to a fair trial. When elected politicians are

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communicating with constituents, similarly. If people think they are

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being listened into, they are less likely to give important

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information. APPLAUSE

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You are not looking at the other side of this. For a long time we

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have been able to look at people's telephones. Do we want the internet

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to be a wild West where we can post whatever we want, raped

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five-year-old, and do we trust Apple or Twitter more than the

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democratically elected Government? They will not at the moment release

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things even when there are good grounds for suspicion and this bill

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is trying to grapple with that new problem and I trust my Government

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much more than a commercial company. Fair enough but it is a false

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opposition. We don't have to trust Apple or the Government. We can have

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scepticism about books. We trust our security services to look after us

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and they need some information to do that. Sure they do but the worrying

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thing about this legislation that I don't think people understand, we

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understand that MI5 followed people... It is the spectre of the

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Stasi. Yes. If they can hold our data for a year, it gives them a

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time machine, not today, not yesterday, to go back nine or 11

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months. It is an immensely powerful tool of surveillance. Do we want

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this to be in operation in our society? We haven't had that debate.

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Do you trust the security services, Linda? Do you trust the Government?

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We had police officers forming relationships with environmental

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protesters... Yes. It is under the law. When crimes take place, you

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don't detect them immediately, the following week, the limit is the

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year, and that limit is put on this and it is reasonable. Is it a crime

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to be an environmental protester? There was infiltration by the police

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and they have relationships with these people and children and these

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women had no idea that they were police officers. That is a separate

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issue. It is about trusting the security services. You are making a

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false opposition. I am not saying that the state is never fallible,

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but to talk about the state, we have a democratically elected state that

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operates within the rule of law. It is different from other states. Not

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all states are at the same. This is what our objection to the bill is.

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It doesn't have the proper role of law in there, that we need to have

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independent justice to look over this. At the moment it is not

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independent and already so much going on and this bill is an

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opportunity to have that independence and make sure again

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that the surveillance that is going on is targeted and reasonable. What

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would satisfy you independent judges? You are saying that the

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justices are not independent. They are not. Their powers are being

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limited so they cannot look at all the evidence for why a warrant is

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being asked for, for example. If we use a lot of the legal mechanisms

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that we already have for being able to get a warrant to go into

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someone's house and apply this to the internet as well, then that is

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something that we should have. This is an opportunity to actually make

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sure that a lot of the activities going on can be properly overseen

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and we are missing that opportunity by having this rushed through within

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a couple of weeks. This is not just Amnesty International. We have had

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three parliamentary committees look over this and give huge feedback on

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it and how it needs to be redrafted. The definitions in it are watery.

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There is not enough specificity as to what we are talking about.

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Instead it is any activity can be monitored. Ultimately it comes down

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to how much we trust the security services and how much we trust they

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are protecting us and not overstepping the mark. Is it not

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human nature that if you can do something... We saw it in phone

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hacking as well. If you have the ability to do something, you do it

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more and more and you become somewhat possessed by the fact that

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you can do it. There is scrutiny of every step of the process and there

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is internal legal scrutiny when you are doing warrants and there is

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scrutiny at the level of the Secretary of State, and scrutiny by

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tribunal and then the Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee

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looking at that and then there are elections. There are so many steps

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involved in this. 80,000 authorisations for access to

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communications data last year. This double lock system with ministerial

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approval, how will this mechanism work for that level of requests for

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access to communications? Do you prefer that Apple should not release

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any data? Apple is protecting criminals because it has a

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commercial interest. This is the San Bernardino case. They are not

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willing to decrypt it and release it. They have a sacred bond with

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their customers because they are commercial company and they want to

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make a profit. They have criminal customers and they will lose them if

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they sometimes release data. That is a really big problem. Is that not

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outrageous? I would say it is a problem that Apple and the FBI have

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decided to make public. It is a matter of principle. This is not the

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case of a dead terrorist whose phone needs to be unlocked... Can I

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finish? But you are not answering how you deal with that case. You

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don't care about that. You have proper judicial oversight. In this

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bill it is not explain to us how the system of judicial commissioners

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will cope with this enormous raft of requests for access. We will come on

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to you in a second because you are here to talk about this pertaining

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to abusive images of children and paedophilia and there could be

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important advances in investigating nosiness crimes in this bill. But

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first of all, this is core to the American psyche, life, liberty and

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freedom. Some people say we are less bothered about it in this country.

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If you are doing nothing wrong, there is no problem. Does anybody

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here care about it? Put your hand up and I would like to hear from you.

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Linda said rightly that the Government has got to operate within

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the law but this is the same Government that is looking at

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repealing the Human Rights Act. With that in mind we should be very

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sceptical about what the Government's agenda is. Who is

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worried about the internet browsing history? As an activist it raises

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concerns about how much freedom I have got to interact with members on

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a day-to-day basis. There is an economic impact on society, so that

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gives them the free rein to just go ahead. What is your name?

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Christopher Robson. Christopher, this phrase, counter to economic

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well-being, it is a catchall phrase. It is a catchall. It has a specific

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meaning. Now. It effectively allows them to get people who want

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large-scale disruption to the state. But fracking would be disrupting

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economic. I have heard politicians arguing that it is. Should they try

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to argue that, the tribunal is would deny that authorisation.

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Jim is an ex-copper. You've trodden over many people's human rights in

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your time, I'm sure. Absolutely. Policing has changed, the way people

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commit crimes has changed, so the security services have to react and

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adapt to that. You gave an interesting figure of 280,000

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searches on request for information. Two years ago when Strathclyde

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Police were still on the go, they carried out stop and searches and

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carried it on when Police Scotland came on the place. In the first year

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they carried out 640,000 times. Times. In theory that was 640,000

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cases when the police thought there was something suspicious, and it was

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only 5%. If you are getting a very small return, the people making

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these requests, are they making it from the right point of view or

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because they can? Judge a lot of people are saying it is a waste of

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time, resources, money and effort. It should be far more targeted.

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Alison, I did promise. Let's talk about paedophilia online and also

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communications through social media and beautiesive images of children.

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Are you encouraged that we can tackle more effectively that

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wickedness through this Bill? I think that aspect is really

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important. We all live our lives digitally and no more so than

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children. They spend a large amount of their time online. It is crucial

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that we make sure that legislation keeps pace with that. When we talk

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to children we say, remember that the internet is real life and it has

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real life consequences, and we have a responsibility to make sure that

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that's as safe as possible and that people can't go online and target

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children and young people without any consequences or any fear of

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detection. How will this Bill help? I think what it does do is it allows

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the police to properly investigate a crime, in the same way that if

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something, if a child is missing or a child is at risk the police would

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ask people that that child had been uld ask people that that child had

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been in contact with - how were they, what did they say, how did

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they present, where were they going? When that's online, we have to make

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sure it is the most important and we give as much powers as we can for

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the police to investigate it... APPLAUSE. I suppose another point

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would be that the police all want to some of crimes and make the world a

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better place, certainly the majority of them. They don't have time to

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snoop and look at people's records or phones who are not actually,

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where there isn't a risk or where there isn't a young person or

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vulnerable person there, so I don't think this will turn into being a

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snoopers' charter. This will turn into having targeted resources when

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children are at risk. Quite a lot of people say on the other side of the

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argument this is terrorism, paedophilia, the moral battering

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rams, and a lot of other people... I've got nodding going on over here.

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Here. The two of you. Do you buy that argument? Again, there are very

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good reasons for there to be surveillance and it should

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definitely be used and targeted. You can to the but. But almost

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immediately it is used for other things. Sojourn lists are told they

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have to give over their sources. Trade unionists, environmental

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campaigners, whatever. Once you have those laws you can use them for

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anything. Exactly. Some hands shooting up. I agree with what

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Alison says. I have a daughter, who is 13, but I can be perceived as

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being cruel, because I won't allow her to have full access to these

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things. Social media and their own age limits and restrictions. As

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parents we have to limit what they can do. Their access is very much

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out there, but I do think the charter would protect them in a way

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but it could go out of control easily. On that as well, children

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are quite vulnerable to this too. Children do act very unwisely

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online. They might be posting things that they probably shouldn't. They

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might be looking at things they probably shouldn't. If they are

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getting potentially criminalised for this or it stays with them

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throughout their lives, they need to be protected from that. That's a

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separate category of law and defining what those behaviours are,

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especially for minors interacting with other minors. Or a 17-year-old

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interact ing with a 15-year-old. That's potentially a crime. That's a

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problem isn't it? It is a problem but it is two separate issues. We

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can't have that risk of the what we need to do is make sure that

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children know how to use the internet. It's a real place, it has

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consequence cans. How do you use it safely? How do you protect your

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information? That's really important. We can't use that as an

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argument to stop being able to keep children safe. Fascinating. We are

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to leave it there. Sorry. There's two more debates, you might have a

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chance then. Thank you all very much indeed.

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APPLAUSE. If you have something

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to say about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions,

:20:44.:20:45.

and follow the link to where you can We're also debating live this

:20:46.:20:48.

morning from Glasgow: Should And later, do religions need

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a carrot and a stick? So get tweeting or emailing

:20:57.:21:02.

on those topics now, or send us any other ideas

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or thoughts you may have Yesterday, at the Liberal Democrats'

:21:05.:21:06.

Spring Conference in York, delegates overwhelmingly voted

:21:07.:21:15.

to allow cannabis to be sold legally to adults in specialist,

:21:16.:21:19.

regulated shops. The Lib Dem leader, Tim Farron,

:21:20.:21:23.

claimed the policy could raise ?1 billion in tax revenue

:21:24.:21:27.

and would wrest control of the trade out of the hands of gangsters

:21:28.:21:30.

and unregulated dealers. So, should there be a legal

:21:31.:21:34.

supply of cannabis? Jim Duffy, ex-cop ex-spokesman for

:21:35.:21:46.

law enforcement against prohibition. Why do you want to legalise it?

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Well, the war on drugs has been going on in this country and across

:21:51.:21:54.

the world for years. We started the war on drugs in 1971. It's been an

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unmitigated failure. We lost. We lost. It is Unwinnable. It hasn't

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been won in any country anywhere in the world. What we have at the

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moment is a system where we've handed over control of the drugs

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market to criminals, and the criminals will decide what the drugs

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are, what they are cut with, what the purity will be, what their

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strength will be. They'll decide if they sell them, or give them away to

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your kids or grand kids. They don't ask for ID. All they are interested

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this is the money. That's what drives the drugs industry and we

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haven't been able in the 32 years I was in the police we didn't make a

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blind bit of difference. We started in 1975 when I joined talking about

:22:38.:22:43.

tenner bags. I left in 2007 and we are still talking tenner bags. If

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inflation had kept place a tenner back would have been ?147, but that

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didn't happen. Everyone in this audience will know that at this

:22:52.:22:56.

moment in time drugs have never been more plentiful, cheaper or easier to

:22:57.:22:59.

get. We need to do something different.

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APPLAUSE. So you want to make, in the terms of the criminal hierarchy,

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the Government the dealer and the multinationals the "Mr Big"s? No,

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what we want to do is legalise, regulate and control the market. The

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market for cannabis, ecstasy? The debate just now is about legalising

:23:19.:23:26.

cannabis. If you chose to sniff it, snort it, injects it or take it into

:23:27.:23:32.

your body through the orifice of your choice, you should be allowed

:23:33.:23:36.

to do that. As long as you have an uncontrolled market it will be run

:23:37.:23:40.

by criminals. It will cost lives. It kills people across the planet. It's

:23:41.:23:45.

killed 100,000 people in Mexico in the last eight years in the drugs

:23:46.:23:48.

war between the cartels and the Government. They are fighting over a

:23:49.:23:56.

plant that grows in the ground. Recovery resources, Deirdre Boyd,

:23:57.:23:58.

the war has been lost. Take it out of the hands of the criminals. Money

:23:59.:24:03.

for the Government. Help for addicts. Proper understanding. Drugs

:24:04.:24:09.

that are not as dangerous and are not cut with toxins, properly

:24:10.:24:15.

produced, the legitimate market. The war on drugs has been lost that's a

:24:16.:24:22.

quicksand foundation. For example, deaths from alcohol are ten times

:24:23.:24:28.

those from illicit drugs. Deaths from tobacco are 100 times those

:24:29.:24:33.

from illicit drugs, which would indicate that this is working. And

:24:34.:24:37.

the other thing is, Jim is correct in that the illicit market will

:24:38.:24:41.

always undercut the legal market. You regulate for the over 18s and

:24:42.:24:44.

then you have the traffickers targeting the under 18s even more.

:24:45.:24:50.

You regulate for potency and you empower the traffickers to offer

:24:51.:24:55.

even more potent products. In fact if you look at the statistics, this

:24:56.:25:01.

is not theory now, as a lot of the legalisation lobby does, the

:25:02.:25:05.

statistics from Colorado and other states that are legalised marijuana,

:25:06.:25:12.

you will find that the potency has increased if, hospitalisations have

:25:13.:25:15.

increased. Poisoning of children has increased by 80%. Drug-driving has

:25:16.:25:21.

increased. If we come back here to the UK, we have the appalling

:25:22.:25:27.

(Inaudible) experiment about 12 years ago and there was a ten-year

:25:28.:25:33.

follow-up. A rigorous empirical follow up. If you were starting now

:25:34.:25:37.

you wouldn't make alcohol legal would you? It is one of the most

:25:38.:25:43.

dangerous drugs isn't it, but if people can enjoy a wee drink, why

:25:44.:25:48.

shouldn't they be able? We've been speaking about personal liberty in

:25:49.:25:50.

the previous debate. Why shouldn't they be able to enjoy a wee joint?

:25:51.:25:57.

Why add to that problem? If we had such a problem, why add to that

:25:58.:26:01.

problem. Eric? I think it is really important to consider what the Lib

:26:02.:26:05.

Dems have actually decided to support. Support. They've received a

:26:06.:26:10.

considered report which is restrictive in terms of its

:26:11.:26:15.

recommendations. It would take the drug out of the hands of criminals.

:26:16.:26:19.

It would mean supply would have to take place in elected shops, with

:26:20.:26:24.

licences, with a separation between the producer and the retailer. So

:26:25.:26:27.

the same people would not be producing and retailing. It would

:26:28.:26:32.

mean that young people who are having a joint are not likely to go

:26:33.:26:38.

prison for five years. It would mean that young people who are sharing

:26:39.:26:43.

cannabis with their friends are not liable to be going to prison for

:26:44.:26:50.

supply of up to 14 years. But Eric, they don't anyway. We've got a

:26:51.:26:54.

nonsensical situation at the moment with the drug laws. What I think.

:26:55.:26:58.

Are there positives for young people? Of course. The reason why

:26:59.:27:02.

people use drugs is because they enjoy them. At least for some of the

:27:03.:27:07.

time that's why they use them. What the report considers is that this is

:27:08.:27:14.

not... It is like alcohol. It is not an ordinary... Drugs are not an

:27:15.:27:19.

ordinary commodity. They have potential risks, they have potential

:27:20.:27:22.

harms. The point is what we are doing at the moment is not reducing

:27:23.:27:25.

those harms but contributing to them. It is dogs proportionate.

:27:26.:27:32.

APPLAUSE. And we need to try something new, that's the point. The

:27:33.:27:36.

Government exists to keep the Government safe and secure and to

:27:37.:27:40.

allow them the freedom to have prosperity and other freedoms.

:27:41.:27:43.

There's a cost to enforcement of law. And it is a significant cost.

:27:44.:27:50.

It is a hard calculation to make, but the calculation is: What is the

:27:51.:27:53.

cost of enforcement versus the benefit to society? In this case it

:27:54.:28:03.

may be... ?54 billion it costs us. It may allow marijuana to be

:28:04.:28:07.

supplied under a Government licence. It is a net benefit of society of

:28:08.:28:14.

reducing the cost of doing that. It is a fundamental reframing of the

:28:15.:28:19.

issue, so it is a public health issue. Rather than protecting the

:28:20.:28:24.

most vulnerable of society. One of the most important roles of

:28:25.:28:27.

Government. It is not just about cost. It is about harm. Laxmi, I

:28:28.:28:34.

will be with you in a moment. Can I come back to you, I want to pick up

:28:35.:28:40.

on Jim's points. No, frankly. Eric, I will come to Laxmi. We want to

:28:41.:28:45.

hear about the possible harm angle. Let me remind people, you are a

:28:46.:28:50.

consultant child and adolescents psychiatrist. Where is the research,

:28:51.:28:56.

is it definitive, the damage to young minds and developing brains.

:28:57.:29:01.

Where are we on that? It is more definitive than the arguments that

:29:02.:29:04.

it is there for enjoyment, let seas a wee joint. I don't think anyone

:29:05.:29:11.

was as explicit as that. It is stunning to hear how we are

:29:12.:29:15.

normalising something where we don't potentially know the harm that they

:29:16.:29:18.

cause. APPLAUSE. I know the harm because I

:29:19.:29:22.

deal with, through the forensic child team, the young people that

:29:23.:29:26.

come through with mall adaptive, abusive backgrounds, with no

:29:27.:29:29.

opportunities, nothing else to do but is it around, and their form of

:29:30.:29:35.

fun is smoking cannabis. All of us, our brains have developed. For me it

:29:36.:29:40.

has stopped, at the age of 21. The people that use cannabis are your

:29:41.:29:46.

15, 16-year-old young people. And there is deaf evidence to suggest if

:29:47.:29:50.

you are using recreationally or chronically it will have an impacts

:29:51.:29:55.

on your ability to problem some of. Your ability to make impulsive

:29:56.:30:00.

choices, or not. Your ability to form decisions, and your

:30:01.:30:04.

concentration. If you think about the links going on for jobs, for

:30:05.:30:09.

entry into the criminal justice system, there's a risk there. On top

:30:10.:30:14.

of that... Please let me finish. The you've got the real risk of

:30:15.:30:18.

psychosis. If you smoke cannabis you are up to six to 10 times more

:30:19.:30:26.

likely to have a psychotic episode. Whilst my esteemed friend there said

:30:27.:30:30.

it is not fun for young people to be in prison, it is no fun for them to

:30:31.:30:34.

be detained under the mental health contact in a hospital ward.

:30:35.:30:35.

APPLAUSE. The constituent of cannabis that

:30:36.:30:48.

causes the most harm is THC. In the 1990s it was about 4% and now it is

:30:49.:30:53.

14%. It is an uncontrolled and unregulated market and what the Lib

:30:54.:30:57.

Dem proposals suggest is an opportunity to have different

:30:58.:31:02.

strengths. You can shift the market towards the least harmful types.

:31:03.:31:10.

What about skunk? People always want skunk. Not necessarily. They have it

:31:11.:31:18.

because... It is psychoactive and hallucinogenic. And that is how the

:31:19.:31:22.

dealers sell it. If you have control, regulated market, you can

:31:23.:31:30.

reduce the THC content. It can be more protective. What is the need

:31:31.:31:34.

for a regulated market for something on enjoyment and anxiety reduction

:31:35.:31:38.

when there are other ways to reduce anxiety and other ways to enjoy

:31:39.:31:43.

yourself. Nobody is suggesting drug use is a good thing. Nobody is

:31:44.:31:50.

suggesting that. Anxiety is often a symptom of social disadvantage and

:31:51.:31:54.

lack of opportunity. If we address those things for our young people

:31:55.:31:57.

today, they don't need to go into a drug cafe and smoke. I am Aqua

:31:58.:32:05.

nobody is disagreeing with you on that. Do you drink? What is the

:32:06.:32:14.

difference? That is not fair. The point about drinking... Don't drink

:32:15.:32:24.

on Laxmi's behalf. My brain has fully developed. So is OK for an

:32:25.:32:30.

adult to smoke? I am a child and adolescent psychologist so I don't

:32:31.:32:34.

know about the harm to an adult's physical health. But certainly I do

:32:35.:32:38.

think there are other ways of managing anxiety, regulating your

:32:39.:32:43.

behaviours and not lying in a hospital ward. Thank you very much

:32:44.:32:49.

indeed. Audience, first of all. Katie? And Eric is looking angry. I

:32:50.:32:56.

will be back with Eric as well. I always look like that! On the mental

:32:57.:33:02.

health angle, the research is about heavy use, age of onset, how often

:33:03.:33:08.

the person is using, and also the debate is a necessarily simple to

:33:09.:33:13.

say that is the only option for or against. Decriminalisation would be

:33:14.:33:19.

another option, so taking the criminalisation out and the

:33:20.:33:22.

Government is doing that with the psychoactive substances act that

:33:23.:33:26.

will come in force in April so that legal highs will be legal for

:33:27.:33:30.

possession. We are already doing it, and this is highlighting the

:33:31.:33:33.

disparity between existing and new drug laws. It is time for change.

:33:34.:33:39.

Anyone else in the audience? Back there and then I will come down to

:33:40.:33:45.

John. We have had a lot of discussions about cannabis and all

:33:46.:33:49.

the detrimental effects. I don't think anyone is contesting the

:33:50.:33:52.

detrimental effects you can get from smoking things like cannabis. The

:33:53.:33:57.

issue comes from how we prevent that impact happening to young children.

:33:58.:34:01.

For example, when it comes to smoking and alcohol, how do we

:34:02.:34:06.

prevent damage of children, people who are vulnerable, with smoking and

:34:07.:34:10.

alcohol? We educate them. In schools we say, fine, we understand some of

:34:11.:34:15.

you smoke and drink and we know that people smoke cannabis. The issue is

:34:16.:34:18.

properly educating people so they know that if they are going to smoke

:34:19.:34:23.

the joint, how they can protect themselves from his detrimental

:34:24.:34:27.

effects. All we do at the moment is tell them it is illegal so don't do

:34:28.:34:31.

it. We don't tell them how to go away and protect themselves from

:34:32.:34:35.

smoking and the detrimental effects that have been discussed. Thank you.

:34:36.:34:40.

John, former cannabis use and addiction support worker. Hello.

:34:41.:34:47.

With regards to heroin, the Government spends ?326 million on

:34:48.:34:55.

methadone, and how to treat people. If the Government is waging a war,

:34:56.:35:01.

which they are not, who is pushing the agenda with drugs? Is it to make

:35:02.:35:05.

more money because they can't tax the poor any more than what they are

:35:06.:35:11.

doing? Do you think that would be something, putting their hands of

:35:12.:35:20.

the multinationals on cannabis, would that be the agenda? Yes.

:35:21.:35:28.

Working for a charity, they have to support the people in housing

:35:29.:35:31.

schemes, picking up the pieces, the wrecked families. People will always

:35:32.:35:37.

take drugs. Yes but it starts with cannabis and does not necessarily

:35:38.:35:43.

stop there. Is it a gateway drug? Yes, a gateway to doing other

:35:44.:35:50.

things. People say it is only a gateway drug... You on. It is a

:35:51.:35:54.

gateway for the people that you are buying the drug from. You talked

:35:55.:35:58.

about Colorado. What is being recommended by the Lib Dems is

:35:59.:36:01.

nothing like the Colorado experiment. It is much more similar

:36:02.:36:06.

to the Uruguay experiment. It is very restrictive. It is making sure

:36:07.:36:10.

that the policy does not make the same mistakes that we have made with

:36:11.:36:14.

the way we regulate alcohol, which is a really harmful legal drug.

:36:15.:36:19.

There are a lot of recommendations about price, availability,

:36:20.:36:30.

marketing, and restricting it, plain packaging. There are opportunities

:36:31.:36:32.

to intervene. If it is being regulated, shops only sell this one

:36:33.:36:35.

product. There would be trained staff within the shops who would

:36:36.:36:39.

have the opportunity to intervene. Within that framework, can you see

:36:40.:36:46.

it being acceptable? For over 18 is? I will not get into the legalisation

:36:47.:36:49.

debate because I don't think it is good for my patients to say which

:36:50.:36:53.

way of the fence I am sitting. That is not my purpose here today. My

:36:54.:36:58.

purpose is to suggest there is definite evidence that there is

:36:59.:37:03.

harm. I totally agree with you. Regulation is a public health issue,

:37:04.:37:08.

as you said, but I could never say to my patients, well, it is in the

:37:09.:37:16.

shops and I am choosing to use it. When I talk to young people who take

:37:17.:37:20.

drugs, it is not a punitive approach, I don't tell young people

:37:21.:37:29.

they cannot smoke up or take drugs. It is giving them information so

:37:30.:37:32.

they can make informed decisions as adults. It is about... The oath I

:37:33.:37:39.

took as a doctor is to put out that the harm and research to suggest the

:37:40.:37:46.

harm. There are alternative ways to get a buzz or get a high. Go for a

:37:47.:37:52.

run, get a cat, be happy. As a dog lover, I think cats should be

:37:53.:38:00.

illegal! I don't! What would this mean for policing, freeing up

:38:01.:38:06.

resources? There is incredible pressure on police resources across

:38:07.:38:09.

the country and in Scotland the Government will not reduce the

:38:10.:38:14.

number of police officers below 17,000, but they want us to save

:38:15.:38:17.

millions of pounds from the budget, so police are limited in what they

:38:18.:38:22.

can do. It would be a bonanza for the police. Only where they have

:38:23.:38:32.

made a conscious decision not to prosecute people when they have

:38:33.:38:36.

drugs for their own use. It frees up court and prison time. One third of

:38:37.:38:41.

the prison population in Scotland is in for nonviolent drug offences.

:38:42.:38:46.

Could transform society in a positive way? Yes. We have 7000

:38:47.:38:51.

deaths from alcohol and none from cannabis and 13,000 from tobacco.

:38:52.:38:58.

Can I give the statistics and not just the theory. In the UK and the

:38:59.:39:03.

US, less than 1% of offenders are in prison for possession of cannabis

:39:04.:39:07.

alone. We're not talking about the tweaking of that. Statistics came

:39:08.:39:10.

out last week for Washington state, and the taxes that have been taken

:39:11.:39:16.

in don't even cover the cost of regulation. It is costing more.

:39:17.:39:21.

Thirdly, the statistics that have come in from Colorado show there is

:39:22.:39:25.

a higher potency than anywhere else in the USA. It is a false dichotomy

:39:26.:39:32.

to do the argument about alcohol versus marijuana because again the

:39:33.:39:35.

research indicates that people that smoke pot of five times more likely

:39:36.:39:38.

to have an alcohol problem and having the two together is

:39:39.:39:43.

horrendous. The fifth one, the fourth dichotomy of prison or

:39:44.:39:48.

treatment, we don't have a good treatment system here. Half of the

:39:49.:39:57.

rehab in this country closed... Thank you. A lot of young Muslim men

:39:58.:40:03.

around the country smoke quite a lot of weed. Is it yes or no in the

:40:04.:40:10.

Koran? There is nothing in the Koran about it at all. Medicinal use could

:40:11.:40:15.

be a possibility. In the 13th century Islamic scholars

:40:16.:40:18.

discussed... Medicinal use could be OK. Yes. What if you enjoy it? No.

:40:19.:40:28.

Because it is harm for other individuals. If you take it

:40:29.:40:32.

medicinally, you would also enjoy it. If you look at it, the primary

:40:33.:40:38.

issue is medicinal use. Muslim scholars have discussed it since the

:40:39.:40:42.

13th century, the difference between alcohol, narcotics and anaesthetics.

:40:43.:40:51.

I cannot tell a lie. Can I have some more cocaine? I am having difficulty

:40:52.:41:03.

articulating myself! The issue is about recreational drugs. You are

:41:04.:41:06.

opening up a can of worms when you allow recreational use of marijuana.

:41:07.:41:11.

So have a cat because didn't the profit cut off his sleeve because

:41:12.:41:18.

the cat was there with her kittens? Lovely. Thank you very much indeed.

:41:19.:41:27.

You can join in all of this morning's debates by logging on and

:41:28.:41:33.

following the link to the discussions.

:41:34.:41:37.

Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.

:41:38.:41:39.

Tell us what you think about our last big question too:

:41:40.:41:41.

Do religions need a carrot and a stick?

:41:42.:41:43.

And if you'd like to be in the audience at a future show,

:41:44.:41:46.

After a break for Easter we're in York on 3rd April for a live show

:41:47.:41:52.

and in the afternoon we will be recording a special

:41:53.:41:55.

Then we're live from Bath on 17th April.

:41:56.:42:03.

These days many churches downplay the idea of eternal damnation.

:42:04.:42:05.

They describe it as an absence of God, with heaven being a blissful

:42:06.:42:09.

But in the Bible, Jesus was very clear about hell,

:42:10.:42:12.

describing it in one parable as a "blazing furnace,

:42:13.:42:15.

the place of wailing and gnashing of teeth."

:42:16.:42:19.

Those who cause offence and whose deeds are evil will be thrown

:42:20.:42:22.

But the good and the righteous will have eternal life,

:42:23.:42:26.

The message is: never forget, you have a choice.

:42:27.:42:31.

So, do religions need a carrot and a stick?

:42:32.:42:38.

I will be with you in a minute. The profit about the cat is a fabricated

:42:39.:42:48.

one but I will get over it in time. That heaven is real, isn't it? You

:42:49.:42:54.

believe it is. Yes. Jesus said, not let your heart be troubled and

:42:55.:42:59.

believe in God. I believe in my father's house and if it were not

:43:00.:43:03.

so, I would have told you and I go to prepare a place for you. Tell him

:43:04.:43:12.

about Jesus. I have and he believed everything I said. If he embraces

:43:13.:43:16.

Jesus can he get to heaven? Of course. You talked about the

:43:17.:43:21.

righteous in the introduction. Righteousness is not doing good.

:43:22.:43:25.

Righteousness is a gift from God when he put your faith in Jesus. We

:43:26.:43:37.

are all born sinners? Yes. None of us is doing good. The best of us is

:43:38.:43:42.

way below. That is why we have the Old Testament, to give us a

:43:43.:43:45.

measurement. This is what God expects and our levels of way below

:43:46.:43:50.

and we need a saviour. Last time Alex was on, he ended up standing up

:43:51.:43:57.

and preaching to the congregation. What is heaven like? Is it real? Is

:43:58.:44:03.

there a reality to it? Yes, it talks about heaven and a new word. What

:44:04.:44:10.

goes on? It says in Isaiah 65, a vision in the Old Testament, that

:44:11.:44:14.

they are building houses, ploughing the fields, but there is the absence

:44:15.:44:21.

of sin. And the presence of God. And there is peace and bliss. It gives

:44:22.:44:24.

you all these kind of things. I don't think we will be sitting on a

:44:25.:44:29.

cloud watching angels with wings firing arrows. We will be building

:44:30.:44:35.

houses. Very likely. We should do more of that here on earth! I agree

:44:36.:44:42.

and the Bible would agree. Shaykh, there are descriptions in the Koran

:44:43.:44:47.

talking about heaven, beautiful people beautiful youths, beautiful

:44:48.:44:50.

handmaidens, trees and figs and rivers of wine. I don't know, it

:44:51.:44:56.

sounds like a polluted river. It sounds very sensual from a male,

:44:57.:45:00.

heterosexual point of view. Is that what it is like or is it a

:45:01.:45:02.

description to get people on board? Hadith, Islam has the most pictorial

:45:03.:45:21.

description of paradise. It does. One of the earlier speakers... In

:45:22.:45:29.

the here-after scholars talk about the fact it was culturally informed.

:45:30.:45:35.

It was catering for a society within which, even in this society. If you

:45:36.:45:43.

say Islam is culturally informed don't you open a can of

:45:44.:45:46.

pomegranates? No, as people of faith you have to accept that reality,

:45:47.:45:52.

what does that inform you about God and his attributes. At the end of

:45:53.:45:58.

the day paradise and hellfire are manifestations. Scholars talk about

:45:59.:46:02.

the worst punishment in hellfire is the fact that tur humiliated in the

:46:03.:46:07.

presence of God. That God has given you the facility to think and to do

:46:08.:46:12.

this things that you do on Earth. There are good people on Earth and

:46:13.:46:16.

bad people on Earth. Are there good people in hell? I don't think so. At

:46:17.:46:20.

the end of the day there's two issues here. One is to state your

:46:21.:46:27.

position as the religio to say your religious path is superior in terms

:46:28.:46:29.

of dealing with social issues, spiritual issues. But the director's

:46:30.:46:34.

cut, which is God's decision on the day of judgment, means that anybody

:46:35.:46:39.

of faith, anybody who believed in God or even argues with God in their

:46:40.:46:44.

hearts is accepting gods. Can an atheist go to heavy no-one You have

:46:45.:46:49.

to ask atheists, are they troubled by God? My answer to that is they

:46:50.:46:53.

are troubled by God, which means they think God exists. There you go

:46:54.:46:59.

Gordon, with you in a minute. Is this at the heart of it, Abrahamic

:47:00.:47:05.

religions, 2 carrot and the stick, to keep you on the straight and

:47:06.:47:12.

narrow. I think it has done a lot of harm, a ritualistic vision of Heaven

:47:13.:47:17.

and hell. It gives the impression that God is some kind of tyrant and

:47:18.:47:21.

if you do the slightest thing to upset him, he is going to zap you

:47:22.:47:30.

and put you in a place of torment. You are right, it is absolutely

:47:31.:47:34.

there in the scriptures. I believe it. So do lots of people. You

:47:35.:47:39.

believe what? Heaven and hell. And in this country the number of people

:47:40.:47:45.

who believe in Heaven and hell has gone up since the '60s, not gone

:47:46.:47:49.

down, and not just religious people. I have faith. If you believe in

:47:50.:47:55.

Heaven and hell it says if you choose to do right or wrong it is

:47:56.:47:59.

not just an arbitrary choice. There's something important about

:48:00.:48:03.

our moral decisions that is weighty and they have consequences. Why not

:48:04.:48:10.

a moral decision to do right and to do good by your fellow beings, to

:48:11.:48:15.

make a legacy for your children in the here and nowt without any carrot

:48:16.:48:21.

and stick, just for proper reasons. I completely agree with you. You.

:48:22.:48:28.

Religions go wrong when they take away people's responsibility. If you

:48:29.:48:32.

think it is the right thing, it is not like saying vanilla ice cream is

:48:33.:48:36.

better than raspberry. It is about who we are as human nature, about

:48:37.:48:42.

how the world is made, means this is the right way to be. It is met if a

:48:43.:48:48.

physical. It is that these decisions really mean something, it is not

:48:49.:48:55.

just a arbitrary matter. You are a humanist, troubled by God, as we

:48:56.:49:00.

hear. Carrot and stick. What do you think about Heaven and local? As a

:49:01.:49:07.

humanist we reject supernational explanations for the natural world.

:49:08.:49:13.

It leads me to think it is almost a simplistic idea of immediate reward

:49:14.:49:17.

or punishment for doing good. I would question how morally good

:49:18.:49:20.

something is if you are only doing good because of that promise of

:49:21.:49:25.

reward or punishment. APPLAUSE. And we can be objective

:49:26.:49:31.

about how to be good and co-operate with people around us. The sense of

:49:32.:49:36.

the wellbeing of those around us if what we do negatively impacts on

:49:37.:49:40.

their wellbeing, that cannot be good. We don't require these

:49:41.:49:44.

external judgments to tell us how can we relate to them? So

:49:45.:49:51.

psychologically, the carrot and stick approach, it was a form of

:49:52.:49:56.

social control, an easy way for people to and that things, doing

:49:57.:49:59.

right and doing wrong. Some people say it is treating us like children.

:50:00.:50:04.

If you have children you say, if you do that again, you're going up

:50:05.:50:07.

stairs, or I will take your mobile phone away from you. Is it an

:50:08.:50:12.

approach to us as if we were little children? As a parent that approach

:50:13.:50:17.

only works for so long. They soon learn to get round it. It is about

:50:18.:50:22.

saying, people are already living their lives the way they are. We are

:50:23.:50:27.

increasingly seeing people moving away from a religious perspective.

:50:28.:50:30.

In Scotland now nearly one in two people say they don't have a

:50:31.:50:33.

religion. That's not necessarily the same as saying they are humanist or

:50:34.:50:39.

atheist but the idea of being followers of a faith. People are

:50:40.:50:43.

generally good. People are looking after one another. People are

:50:44.:50:49.

contributing to charities. They are looking to the they find a wall net

:50:50.:50:52.

the street, most people will return it. So they don't need the carrot

:50:53.:50:59.

and stick. Belief in Heaven or hell isn't diminishing instantly. Where?

:51:00.:51:05.

In Britain. Religion yes, but not belief in Heaven and hell. You can

:51:06.:51:11.

trivialise us and say it is about treating us like children. But it is

:51:12.:51:14.

about a sense of justice. That's what lies at the heart of it. People

:51:15.:51:20.

wonder, if people do these horrific things, we were talking about

:51:21.:51:23.

paedophilia, what happens to them? We don't know but we have a kind of

:51:24.:51:28.

hope and faith that's not the end of the story. They won't be rewarded.

:51:29.:51:35.

It says your decisions as a human are connected to every other human

:51:36.:51:39.

in your society. You are not making moral decisions for yourself, but

:51:40.:51:42.

for the society and the collective that you are in. You can conduct a

:51:43.:51:48.

war because you believe it's in the interests of society. Isis think

:51:49.:51:53.

they are doing the right thing. The message of all the Abrahamic faiths,

:51:54.:51:57.

it says you are not a moral island. You are connected. Therefore you

:51:58.:52:01.

have to make decisions with that this mind. There is an Octoberive

:52:02.:52:09.

standard. That's the way we behaved before the Abrahamic faiths as

:52:10.:52:14.

foragers looking after each other, making sure there was a cohesive

:52:15.:52:19.

group. But they believe many afterlife as well. It was a way

:52:20.:52:26.

of... Yeah. It seems fundamental to humans to believe there is something

:52:27.:52:31.

that is not just us arbitrarily deciding to do this. Especially with

:52:32.:52:35.

rates of infant mortality. It would be a way of dealing with it. It is

:52:36.:52:40.

objective, not just subjective. I would disagree and say it is

:52:41.:52:44.

absolutely a human instincts to hope there is something beyond the

:52:45.:52:48.

reality that we have. But I fear that a lot of people miss out on the

:52:49.:52:53.

wonder and awe of what have now. Just to go back to the point. We

:52:54.:52:57.

don't have to look back at history to see how people lived without the

:52:58.:53:00.

Abraham ache faiths. We can look around the world now and see how

:53:01.:53:05.

people live. People are relating to each other in good ways without this

:53:06.:53:10.

idea of Heaven and hell. Carrot and stick. Pastor? I would say

:53:11.:53:14.

absolutely. Heaven and hell, if you don't know about it and you are

:53:15.:53:19.

living in a society, yes you can have a happy society. But if there

:53:20.:53:24.

is such a place in Heaven and hell and in Christ that's been revealed

:53:25.:53:31.

to us in the world of the Lord. By the way it is not mentioned in the

:53:32.:53:37.

Old Testament. Most of the prophets were humanists. Jesus talked about

:53:38.:53:42.

hell a lot. And about the lake of fire. And paradise. This day will

:53:43.:53:47.

you be with me in paradise, he said to the thief on the cross. But we

:53:48.:53:53.

are not talking about, when you are talking about heaven and hell

:53:54.:53:58.

Emmanuel Cant said with all the injustice in the world and all the

:53:59.:54:01.

failures in the legal system there is has to be somehow, somewhere

:54:02.:54:06.

where it is sorted out, and I liked that. That gripped me as a young

:54:07.:54:12.

guy. I believe, you see the instinct within us. I believe that's a

:54:13.:54:17.

God-given instinct, that we have a hope... A Gordon-given instinct. To

:54:18.:54:23.

get back to the idea that we don't always get it right in this life,

:54:24.:54:27.

therefore there's a chance to get it right after. That's should be a call

:54:28.:54:31.

to us to get it right now. Absolutely.

:54:32.:54:35.

APPLAUSE. What we want in this life is not what we are getting. You know

:54:36.:54:41.

that mismarriages of justice are without number. If I'm suffering

:54:42.:54:46.

injustice and I go to my grave absolutely grieving that I was

:54:47.:54:50.

accused and I didn't get justice whatever, there is nevertheless

:54:51.:54:54.

within me this fought, one day, it will be put right. But if you're

:54:55.:54:59.

dead you won't be worrying about it any more. No. We've all been dead

:55:00.:55:04.

before. No, after death the judgment. Who are you or anybody to

:55:05.:55:08.

that when we die that's the end of it? If it is the end of it. Jesus

:55:09.:55:15.

rose from the dead and came back. If it is the end of it and this is it,

:55:16.:55:20.

does that make sense to you? Yes it does, because if it is the end of

:55:21.:55:25.

it, what have I lost? Nothing. I've had a great life. I've enjoyed it.

:55:26.:55:30.

I'm a humanist with a small h, I want justice. Justice. I want

:55:31.:55:35.

kindness. But if I'm right and there's a hell or a Heaven, but what

:55:36.:55:40.

about our atheistic friends? They are going to burn. Should they'll go

:55:41.:55:45.

to hell. If I only accept that to ensure that I get into Heaven,

:55:46.:55:49.

surely God will know that I didn't do it for the right reasons, that

:55:50.:55:55.

I'm only doing it to secure my insurance policy.

:55:56.:56:00.

APPLAUSE. Nobody... The thing is, it is not about Heaven and hell, Nicky,

:56:01.:56:06.

at the end of the day. At the end of the day it IS about Heaven and hell.

:56:07.:56:11.

Yes, this discussion is. God is a God of love. He didn't make hell for

:56:12.:56:16.

folks here. He didn't make hell for you and I. Who did he make it for?

:56:17.:56:22.

Satan and his angels. You can snicker. But he made it for someone

:56:23.:56:26.

didn't he? Yes, of course he did. That's because we have the free

:56:27.:56:29.

choice. Even Satan had a free choice. He was an all-powerful

:56:30.:56:33.

being, yes, so hell's been made for him. Listen, Jesus died on the cross

:56:34.:56:38.

and went to hell. Took that punishment, the wrath of dad on your

:56:39.:56:44.

behalf, Nicky, because he loved you Jesus died on that cross. He talked

:56:45.:56:48.

about hell more than Heaven. Why? Because he was going there to take

:56:49.:56:54.

your punishment. That's the whole gospel Are you preaching later? Into

:56:55.:56:58.

no. What time are you preaching? 12 o'clock. Shall we all go everyone?

:56:59.:57:03.

It is going to be good. Not far from here. Lynda? If you put it like that

:57:04.:57:07.

it takes away our responsibility, because if Jesus died for you, like

:57:08.:57:18.

the von Ribbontrop repenting when he was going to be hanged, everyone can

:57:19.:57:23.

say, oh, it's going to be fine. But you would know as a professor would

:57:24.:57:27.

know as a professor that's not a belief - that's a cop-out. You've

:57:28.:57:31.

got to belief in your heart. But as sin serious it doesn't matter what

:57:32.:57:36.

we do. The Pastor is stealing your fire, your hellfire. I don't think

:57:37.:57:41.

so. We have a concept of what is good and that's metaphysical. That's

:57:42.:57:45.

what pushes us to do things. The concept of paradise is there. It is

:57:46.:57:49.

a carrot but at the end of the day in our faith you intend that actions

:57:50.:57:53.

are the things that push you into God's pleasure. Is everyone in

:57:54.:57:57.

paradise a Muslim? Everyone accepts God. Does it mean you are a Muslim?

:57:58.:58:03.

It means you've submitted your will to God. It means fighting against

:58:04.:58:07.

paedophilia, fighting against injustice If you are a person on

:58:08.:58:10.

that side and you know there's a God, on the day of judgment God will

:58:11.:58:19.

not overlook your actions. There are one scriptural source that says

:58:20.:58:24.

that. What aboutisties? Tural source that says that. What aboutisties? --

:58:25.:58:29.

what about atheists. Gordon, the Shaykh and the Pastor are waiting

:58:30.:58:33.

for you. Thank you oryour contributions.

:58:34.:58:35.

As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter.

:58:36.:58:38.

Next week we're in Brighton, so do join us then.

:58:39.:58:40.

But for now it's goodbye and have a great Sunday.

:58:41.:58:42.

In the last five years, homelessness across the UK has soared.

:58:43.:59:03.

So this is where you sleep every night? Yes. Hm.

:59:04.:59:06.

As part of BBC1's season of Sport Relief,

:59:07.:59:08.

our four celebrities continue to experience life on the streets.

:59:09.:59:11.

And things are about to get even tougher.

:59:12.:59:15.

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