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Today on The Big Questions: the snoopers' charter. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Good morning, I'm Nicky Campbell, welcome to The Big Questions. | :00:00. | :00:28. | |
Today we're live from Hutchesons' Grammar School in Glasgow. | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions. | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
On Tuesday, the House of Commons will debate the "snoopers' charter", | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
The bill will seek to define precisely what the security services | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
and law enforcement can get up to online. | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
New powers to examine a year's worth of our internet browsing history | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
or to identify a journalist's sources are just two | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
Big Brother will truly be watching you. | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
Of course, the people whose job it is to keep us all safe have long | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
been able to steam open letters and tap phones, | :01:08. | :01:09. | |
provided they have the appropriate permissions. | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
The argument goes that if we communicate in new ways, | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
Will the snoopers' charter make us safer? | :01:17. | :01:28. | |
Naomi McAuliffe, from Amnesty International Scotland, welcome to | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
The Big Questions. You have deep concerns about this one. In what | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
ways could it be abused? The concern is that there is no judicial | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
oversight over this. Some of what they are taking on, they are putting | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
in independent adjudicator on this, but the problem is that a lot of | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
this surveillance already goes on. This was an opportunity in the bill | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
to make sure there was proper oversight of it. So that when | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
surveillance is being used, and it is being used, but it has to be | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
targeted and used when there is reasonable suspicion of individuals | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
as well, having mass and bold surveillance means that plenty of | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
innocent people, in fact everyone, everyone sitting here and | :02:15. | :02:25. | |
watching at home, will have their internet and communications looked | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
at. And we need to think about the ramifications for that and the | :02:30. | :02:31. | |
chilling effect that will have on how we communicate with each other | :02:32. | :02:33. | |
and operate in society. The average person on the street is not going to | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
have their material looked at by the Government. What this law says is | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
that communication service providers, the people who provide | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
your phone and internet, must keep that material for a year, so that | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
should there be reasonable grounds, adjudicated by a Minister of State | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
and by a judge, to determine that we need to look at that information | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
because something has gone on, then they can look at that. The same way | :02:57. | :03:09. | |
that you can go into someone's houses they have committed a crime | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
with a warranty. It is not the same as that. This is an independent | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
judges that we are talking about and we are asking for this independence. | :03:16. | :03:17. | |
It is not the same as the warrant. A lot of these things would be signed | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
off without that kind of oversight. The fact that it is this bulk | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
collection of data means that it does cover everyone. Is that a | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
euphemism? Bulk collection? Mass surveillance? There is a phrase that | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
I want to explore. Anything that is contrary to economic well-being. | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
That could be anti-fracking protesters, environmental | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
protesters, animal rights protesters, antinuclear protesters. | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
Peter, is that the concern? It is a big concern. A real problem with | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
this legislation is that it purports to be targeted when in fact it is | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
mass surveillance. The argument is it is not mass surveillance. But | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
everyone in this room, everyone in the country will have their internet | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
search histories, other forms of communication... What internet | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
search histories? For some people that will be criminal it in, but for | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
others, no names, it will be embarrassing! But for most just | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
utterly boring. All of that information, it is being held by | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
private companies already, by Google, Apple, big companies, being | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
used to make profit. Somehow we trust them to get on with doing it | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
but now we have a Government with the necessary rights to prevent | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
crime to keep people safe who are not going to hold that data. Do you | :04:41. | :04:48. | |
trust the state? I do, yes, because I know that the people deciding to | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
make these decisions are elected officials, so that is already the | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
first step. That the people you are choosing to represent you will be | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
the people... I spoke to a former Home Secretary, a liberal minded | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
man, who said no matter how liberal you are, if you sit in that desk as | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
Home Secretary, some of the stuff that comes across your desk, you | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
lose your notions of being liberal. No politician wants something to | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
happen on his watch. It is just human nature. They call it a mission | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
creep and it will go further and further. But you do have a series of | :05:24. | :05:31. | |
checks along the way. The authority that is making the decision to | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
conduct a piece of surveillance against an individual must justify | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
that through a series of checks. That has got to be reviewed by a | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
tribunal and should someone feel that surveillance power has been | :05:44. | :05:45. | |
used against them unfairly, they can appeal. Again because this is the | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
internet, we are talking globally. In America for example we have had a | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
lot of Draconian laws brought in after 9/11 and they are trying to | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
roll back on some of those surveillance programmes. From | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
Amnesty International's point of view this goes beyond the British | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
borders. We have been spied on by the British intelligence services. | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
We know this because of a court case and they held our data too long and | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
that was the only reason we knew about it, they broke their own | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
rules. We get information from people around the world who are | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
living in repressive regimes and who have had human rights violations | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
against themselves or have documented that, and that | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
information is being spied on and potentially passed on to third | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
parties, that means there is a chilling effect on people will not | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
pass on information. It affects lots of areas of life. Lawyers have said | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
that if their communications with clients are being looked at, that | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
would undermine the right to a fair trial. When elected politicians are | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
communicating with constituents, similarly. If people think they are | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
being listened into, they are less likely to give important | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
information. APPLAUSE | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
You are not looking at the other side of this. For a long time we | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
have been able to look at people's telephones. Do we want the internet | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
to be a wild West where we can post whatever we want, raped | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
five-year-old, and do we trust Apple or Twitter more than the | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
democratically elected Government? They will not at the moment release | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
things even when there are good grounds for suspicion and this bill | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
is trying to grapple with that new problem and I trust my Government | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
much more than a commercial company. Fair enough but it is a false | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
opposition. We don't have to trust Apple or the Government. We can have | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
scepticism about books. We trust our security services to look after us | :07:46. | :07:47. | |
and they need some information to do that. Sure they do but the worrying | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
thing about this legislation that I don't think people understand, we | :07:52. | :08:02. | |
understand that MI5 followed people... It is the spectre of the | :08:03. | :08:11. | |
Stasi. Yes. If they can hold our data for a year, it gives them a | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
time machine, not today, not yesterday, to go back nine or 11 | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
months. It is an immensely powerful tool of surveillance. Do we want | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
this to be in operation in our society? We haven't had that debate. | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
Do you trust the security services, Linda? Do you trust the Government? | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
We had police officers forming relationships with environmental | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
protesters... Yes. It is under the law. When crimes take place, you | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
don't detect them immediately, the following week, the limit is the | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
year, and that limit is put on this and it is reasonable. Is it a crime | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
to be an environmental protester? There was infiltration by the police | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
and they have relationships with these people and children and these | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
women had no idea that they were police officers. That is a separate | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
issue. It is about trusting the security services. You are making a | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
false opposition. I am not saying that the state is never fallible, | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
but to talk about the state, we have a democratically elected state that | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
operates within the rule of law. It is different from other states. Not | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
all states are at the same. This is what our objection to the bill is. | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
It doesn't have the proper role of law in there, that we need to have | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
independent justice to look over this. At the moment it is not | :09:35. | :09:45. | |
independent and already so much going on and this bill is an | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
opportunity to have that independence and make sure again | :09:49. | :09:50. | |
that the surveillance that is going on is targeted and reasonable. What | :09:51. | :09:52. | |
would satisfy you independent judges? You are saying that the | :09:53. | :10:00. | |
justices are not independent. They are not. Their powers are being | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
limited so they cannot look at all the evidence for why a warrant is | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
being asked for, for example. If we use a lot of the legal mechanisms | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
that we already have for being able to get a warrant to go into | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
someone's house and apply this to the internet as well, then that is | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
something that we should have. This is an opportunity to actually make | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
sure that a lot of the activities going on can be properly overseen | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
and we are missing that opportunity by having this rushed through within | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
a couple of weeks. This is not just Amnesty International. We have had | :10:34. | :10:35. | |
three parliamentary committees look over this and give huge feedback on | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
it and how it needs to be redrafted. The definitions in it are watery. | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
There is not enough specificity as to what we are talking about. | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
Instead it is any activity can be monitored. Ultimately it comes down | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
to how much we trust the security services and how much we trust they | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
are protecting us and not overstepping the mark. Is it not | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
human nature that if you can do something... We saw it in phone | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
hacking as well. If you have the ability to do something, you do it | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
more and more and you become somewhat possessed by the fact that | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
you can do it. There is scrutiny of every step of the process and there | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
is internal legal scrutiny when you are doing warrants and there is | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
scrutiny at the level of the Secretary of State, and scrutiny by | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
tribunal and then the Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
looking at that and then there are elections. There are so many steps | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
involved in this. 80,000 authorisations for access to | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
communications data last year. This double lock system with ministerial | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
approval, how will this mechanism work for that level of requests for | :11:50. | :11:57. | |
access to communications? Do you prefer that Apple should not release | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
any data? Apple is protecting criminals because it has a | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
commercial interest. This is the San Bernardino case. They are not | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
willing to decrypt it and release it. They have a sacred bond with | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
their customers because they are commercial company and they want to | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
make a profit. They have criminal customers and they will lose them if | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
they sometimes release data. That is a really big problem. Is that not | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
outrageous? I would say it is a problem that Apple and the FBI have | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
decided to make public. It is a matter of principle. This is not the | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
case of a dead terrorist whose phone needs to be unlocked... Can I | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
finish? But you are not answering how you deal with that case. You | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
don't care about that. You have proper judicial oversight. In this | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
bill it is not explain to us how the system of judicial commissioners | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
will cope with this enormous raft of requests for access. We will come on | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
to you in a second because you are here to talk about this pertaining | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
to abusive images of children and paedophilia and there could be | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
important advances in investigating nosiness crimes in this bill. But | :13:13. | :13:23. | |
first of all, this is core to the American psyche, life, liberty and | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
freedom. Some people say we are less bothered about it in this country. | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
If you are doing nothing wrong, there is no problem. Does anybody | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
here care about it? Put your hand up and I would like to hear from you. | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
Linda said rightly that the Government has got to operate within | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
the law but this is the same Government that is looking at | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
repealing the Human Rights Act. With that in mind we should be very | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
sceptical about what the Government's agenda is. Who is | :13:52. | :13:59. | |
worried about the internet browsing history? As an activist it raises | :14:00. | :14:07. | |
concerns about how much freedom I have got to interact with members on | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
a day-to-day basis. There is an economic impact on society, so that | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
gives them the free rein to just go ahead. What is your name? | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
Christopher Robson. Christopher, this phrase, counter to economic | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
well-being, it is a catchall phrase. It is a catchall. It has a specific | :14:28. | :14:39. | |
meaning. Now. It effectively allows them to get people who want | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
large-scale disruption to the state. But fracking would be disrupting | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
economic. I have heard politicians arguing that it is. Should they try | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
to argue that, the tribunal is would deny that authorisation. | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
Jim is an ex-copper. You've trodden over many people's human rights in | :15:00. | :15:10. | |
your time, I'm sure. Absolutely. Policing has changed, the way people | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
commit crimes has changed, so the security services have to react and | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
adapt to that. You gave an interesting figure of 280,000 | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
searches on request for information. Two years ago when Strathclyde | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
Police were still on the go, they carried out stop and searches and | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
carried it on when Police Scotland came on the place. In the first year | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
they carried out 640,000 times. Times. In theory that was 640,000 | :15:41. | :15:55. | |
cases when the police thought there was something suspicious, and it was | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
only 5%. If you are getting a very small return, the people making | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
these requests, are they making it from the right point of view or | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
because they can? Judge a lot of people are saying it is a waste of | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
time, resources, money and effort. It should be far more targeted. | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
Alison, I did promise. Let's talk about paedophilia online and also | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
communications through social media and beautiesive images of children. | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
Are you encouraged that we can tackle more effectively that | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
wickedness through this Bill? I think that aspect is really | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
important. We all live our lives digitally and no more so than | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
children. They spend a large amount of their time online. It is crucial | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
that we make sure that legislation keeps pace with that. When we talk | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
to children we say, remember that the internet is real life and it has | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
real life consequences, and we have a responsibility to make sure that | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
that's as safe as possible and that people can't go online and target | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
children and young people without any consequences or any fear of | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
detection. How will this Bill help? I think what it does do is it allows | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
the police to properly investigate a crime, in the same way that if | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
something, if a child is missing or a child is at risk the police would | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
ask people that that child had been uld ask people that that child had | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
been in contact with - how were they, what did they say, how did | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
they present, where were they going? When that's online, we have to make | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
sure it is the most important and we give as much powers as we can for | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
the police to investigate it... APPLAUSE. I suppose another point | :17:40. | :17:46. | |
would be that the police all want to some of crimes and make the world a | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
better place, certainly the majority of them. They don't have time to | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
snoop and look at people's records or phones who are not actually, | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
where there isn't a risk or where there isn't a young person or | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
vulnerable person there, so I don't think this will turn into being a | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
snoopers' charter. This will turn into having targeted resources when | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
children are at risk. Quite a lot of people say on the other side of the | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
argument this is terrorism, paedophilia, the moral battering | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
rams, and a lot of other people... I've got nodding going on over here. | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
Here. The two of you. Do you buy that argument? Again, there are very | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
good reasons for there to be surveillance and it should | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
definitely be used and targeted. You can to the but. But almost | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
immediately it is used for other things. Sojourn lists are told they | :18:42. | :18:51. | |
have to give over their sources. Trade unionists, environmental | :18:52. | :18:53. | |
campaigners, whatever. Once you have those laws you can use them for | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
anything. Exactly. Some hands shooting up. I agree with what | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
Alison says. I have a daughter, who is 13, but I can be perceived as | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
being cruel, because I won't allow her to have full access to these | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
things. Social media and their own age limits and restrictions. As | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
parents we have to limit what they can do. Their access is very much | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
out there, but I do think the charter would protect them in a way | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
but it could go out of control easily. On that as well, children | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
are quite vulnerable to this too. Children do act very unwisely | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
online. They might be posting things that they probably shouldn't. They | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
might be looking at things they probably shouldn't. If they are | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
getting potentially criminalised for this or it stays with them | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
throughout their lives, they need to be protected from that. That's a | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
separate category of law and defining what those behaviours are, | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
especially for minors interacting with other minors. Or a 17-year-old | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
interact ing with a 15-year-old. That's potentially a crime. That's a | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
problem isn't it? It is a problem but it is two separate issues. We | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
can't have that risk of the what we need to do is make sure that | :20:14. | :20:15. | |
children know how to use the internet. It's a real place, it has | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
consequence cans. How do you use it safely? How do you protect your | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
information? That's really important. We can't use that as an | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
argument to stop being able to keep children safe. Fascinating. We are | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
to leave it there. Sorry. There's two more debates, you might have a | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
chance then. Thank you all very much indeed. | :20:39. | :20:38. | |
APPLAUSE. If you have something | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
to say about that debate, log on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions, | :20:44. | :20:45. | |
and follow the link to where you can We're also debating live this | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
morning from Glasgow: Should And later, do religions need | :20:49. | :20:56. | |
a carrot and a stick? So get tweeting or emailing | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
on those topics now, or send us any other ideas | :21:03. | :21:04. | |
or thoughts you may have Yesterday, at the Liberal Democrats' | :21:05. | :21:06. | |
Spring Conference in York, delegates overwhelmingly voted | :21:07. | :21:15. | |
to allow cannabis to be sold legally to adults in specialist, | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
regulated shops. The Lib Dem leader, Tim Farron, | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
claimed the policy could raise ?1 billion in tax revenue | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
and would wrest control of the trade out of the hands of gangsters | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
and unregulated dealers. So, should there be a legal | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
supply of cannabis? Jim Duffy, ex-cop ex-spokesman for | :21:35. | :21:46. | |
law enforcement against prohibition. Why do you want to legalise it? | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
Well, the war on drugs has been going on in this country and across | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
the world for years. We started the war on drugs in 1971. It's been an | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
unmitigated failure. We lost. We lost. It is Unwinnable. It hasn't | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
been won in any country anywhere in the world. What we have at the | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
moment is a system where we've handed over control of the drugs | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
market to criminals, and the criminals will decide what the drugs | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
are, what they are cut with, what the purity will be, what their | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
strength will be. They'll decide if they sell them, or give them away to | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
your kids or grand kids. They don't ask for ID. All they are interested | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
this is the money. That's what drives the drugs industry and we | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
haven't been able in the 32 years I was in the police we didn't make a | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
blind bit of difference. We started in 1975 when I joined talking about | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
tenner bags. I left in 2007 and we are still talking tenner bags. If | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
inflation had kept place a tenner back would have been ?147, but that | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
didn't happen. Everyone in this audience will know that at this | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
moment in time drugs have never been more plentiful, cheaper or easier to | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
get. We need to do something different. | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
APPLAUSE. So you want to make, in the terms of the criminal hierarchy, | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
the Government the dealer and the multinationals the "Mr Big"s? No, | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
what we want to do is legalise, regulate and control the market. The | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
market for cannabis, ecstasy? The debate just now is about legalising | :23:19. | :23:26. | |
cannabis. If you chose to sniff it, snort it, injects it or take it into | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
your body through the orifice of your choice, you should be allowed | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
to do that. As long as you have an uncontrolled market it will be run | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
by criminals. It will cost lives. It kills people across the planet. It's | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
killed 100,000 people in Mexico in the last eight years in the drugs | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
war between the cartels and the Government. They are fighting over a | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
plant that grows in the ground. Recovery resources, Deirdre Boyd, | :23:57. | :23:58. | |
the war has been lost. Take it out of the hands of the criminals. Money | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
for the Government. Help for addicts. Proper understanding. Drugs | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
that are not as dangerous and are not cut with toxins, properly | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
produced, the legitimate market. The war on drugs has been lost that's a | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
quicksand foundation. For example, deaths from alcohol are ten times | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
those from illicit drugs. Deaths from tobacco are 100 times those | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
from illicit drugs, which would indicate that this is working. And | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
the other thing is, Jim is correct in that the illicit market will | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
always undercut the legal market. You regulate for the over 18s and | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
then you have the traffickers targeting the under 18s even more. | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
You regulate for potency and you empower the traffickers to offer | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
even more potent products. In fact if you look at the statistics, this | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
is not theory now, as a lot of the legalisation lobby does, the | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
statistics from Colorado and other states that are legalised marijuana, | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
you will find that the potency has increased if, hospitalisations have | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
increased. Poisoning of children has increased by 80%. Drug-driving has | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
increased. If we come back here to the UK, we have the appalling | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
(Inaudible) experiment about 12 years ago and there was a ten-year | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
follow-up. A rigorous empirical follow up. If you were starting now | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
you wouldn't make alcohol legal would you? It is one of the most | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
dangerous drugs isn't it, but if people can enjoy a wee drink, why | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
shouldn't they be able? We've been speaking about personal liberty in | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
the previous debate. Why shouldn't they be able to enjoy a wee joint? | :25:51. | :25:57. | |
Why add to that problem? If we had such a problem, why add to that | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
problem. Eric? I think it is really important to consider what the Lib | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
Dems have actually decided to support. Support. They've received a | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
considered report which is restrictive in terms of its | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
recommendations. It would take the drug out of the hands of criminals. | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
It would mean supply would have to take place in elected shops, with | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
licences, with a separation between the producer and the retailer. So | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
the same people would not be producing and retailing. It would | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
mean that young people who are having a joint are not likely to go | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
prison for five years. It would mean that young people who are sharing | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
cannabis with their friends are not liable to be going to prison for | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
supply of up to 14 years. But Eric, they don't anyway. We've got a | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
nonsensical situation at the moment with the drug laws. What I think. | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
Are there positives for young people? Of course. The reason why | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
people use drugs is because they enjoy them. At least for some of the | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
time that's why they use them. What the report considers is that this is | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
not... It is like alcohol. It is not an ordinary... Drugs are not an | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
ordinary commodity. They have potential risks, they have potential | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
harms. The point is what we are doing at the moment is not reducing | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
those harms but contributing to them. It is dogs proportionate. | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
APPLAUSE. And we need to try something new, that's the point. The | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
Government exists to keep the Government safe and secure and to | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
allow them the freedom to have prosperity and other freedoms. | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
There's a cost to enforcement of law. And it is a significant cost. | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
It is a hard calculation to make, but the calculation is: What is the | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
cost of enforcement versus the benefit to society? In this case it | :27:54. | :28:03. | |
may be... ?54 billion it costs us. It may allow marijuana to be | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
supplied under a Government licence. It is a net benefit of society of | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
reducing the cost of doing that. It is a fundamental reframing of the | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
issue, so it is a public health issue. Rather than protecting the | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
most vulnerable of society. One of the most important roles of | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
Government. It is not just about cost. It is about harm. Laxmi, I | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
will be with you in a moment. Can I come back to you, I want to pick up | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
on Jim's points. No, frankly. Eric, I will come to Laxmi. We want to | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
hear about the possible harm angle. Let me remind people, you are a | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
consultant child and adolescents psychiatrist. Where is the research, | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
is it definitive, the damage to young minds and developing brains. | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
Where are we on that? It is more definitive than the arguments that | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
it is there for enjoyment, let seas a wee joint. I don't think anyone | :29:05. | :29:11. | |
was as explicit as that. It is stunning to hear how we are | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
normalising something where we don't potentially know the harm that they | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
cause. APPLAUSE. I know the harm because I | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
deal with, through the forensic child team, the young people that | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
come through with mall adaptive, abusive backgrounds, with no | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
opportunities, nothing else to do but is it around, and their form of | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
fun is smoking cannabis. All of us, our brains have developed. For me it | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
has stopped, at the age of 21. The people that use cannabis are your | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
15, 16-year-old young people. And there is deaf evidence to suggest if | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
you are using recreationally or chronically it will have an impacts | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
on your ability to problem some of. Your ability to make impulsive | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
choices, or not. Your ability to form decisions, and your | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
concentration. If you think about the links going on for jobs, for | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
entry into the criminal justice system, there's a risk there. On top | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
of that... Please let me finish. The you've got the real risk of | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
psychosis. If you smoke cannabis you are up to six to 10 times more | :30:19. | :30:26. | |
likely to have a psychotic episode. Whilst my esteemed friend there said | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
it is not fun for young people to be in prison, it is no fun for them to | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
be detained under the mental health contact in a hospital ward. | :30:35. | :30:35. | |
APPLAUSE. The constituent of cannabis that | :30:36. | :30:48. | |
causes the most harm is THC. In the 1990s it was about 4% and now it is | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
14%. It is an uncontrolled and unregulated market and what the Lib | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
Dem proposals suggest is an opportunity to have different | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
strengths. You can shift the market towards the least harmful types. | :31:03. | :31:10. | |
What about skunk? People always want skunk. Not necessarily. They have it | :31:11. | :31:18. | |
because... It is psychoactive and hallucinogenic. And that is how the | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
dealers sell it. If you have control, regulated market, you can | :31:23. | :31:30. | |
reduce the THC content. It can be more protective. What is the need | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
for a regulated market for something on enjoyment and anxiety reduction | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
when there are other ways to reduce anxiety and other ways to enjoy | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
yourself. Nobody is suggesting drug use is a good thing. Nobody is | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
suggesting that. Anxiety is often a symptom of social disadvantage and | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
lack of opportunity. If we address those things for our young people | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
today, they don't need to go into a drug cafe and smoke. I am Aqua | :31:58. | :32:05. | |
nobody is disagreeing with you on that. Do you drink? What is the | :32:06. | :32:14. | |
difference? That is not fair. The point about drinking... Don't drink | :32:15. | :32:24. | |
on Laxmi's behalf. My brain has fully developed. So is OK for an | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
adult to smoke? I am a child and adolescent psychologist so I don't | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
know about the harm to an adult's physical health. But certainly I do | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
think there are other ways of managing anxiety, regulating your | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
behaviours and not lying in a hospital ward. Thank you very much | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
indeed. Audience, first of all. Katie? And Eric is looking angry. I | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
will be back with Eric as well. I always look like that! On the mental | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
health angle, the research is about heavy use, age of onset, how often | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
the person is using, and also the debate is a necessarily simple to | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
say that is the only option for or against. Decriminalisation would be | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
another option, so taking the criminalisation out and the | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
Government is doing that with the psychoactive substances act that | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
will come in force in April so that legal highs will be legal for | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
possession. We are already doing it, and this is highlighting the | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
disparity between existing and new drug laws. It is time for change. | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
Anyone else in the audience? Back there and then I will come down to | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
John. We have had a lot of discussions about cannabis and all | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
the detrimental effects. I don't think anyone is contesting the | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
detrimental effects you can get from smoking things like cannabis. The | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
issue comes from how we prevent that impact happening to young children. | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
For example, when it comes to smoking and alcohol, how do we | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
prevent damage of children, people who are vulnerable, with smoking and | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
alcohol? We educate them. In schools we say, fine, we understand some of | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
you smoke and drink and we know that people smoke cannabis. The issue is | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
properly educating people so they know that if they are going to smoke | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
the joint, how they can protect themselves from his detrimental | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
effects. All we do at the moment is tell them it is illegal so don't do | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
it. We don't tell them how to go away and protect themselves from | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
smoking and the detrimental effects that have been discussed. Thank you. | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
John, former cannabis use and addiction support worker. Hello. | :34:41. | :34:47. | |
With regards to heroin, the Government spends ?326 million on | :34:48. | :34:55. | |
methadone, and how to treat people. If the Government is waging a war, | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
which they are not, who is pushing the agenda with drugs? Is it to make | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
more money because they can't tax the poor any more than what they are | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
doing? Do you think that would be something, putting their hands of | :35:12. | :35:20. | |
the multinationals on cannabis, would that be the agenda? Yes. | :35:21. | :35:28. | |
Working for a charity, they have to support the people in housing | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
schemes, picking up the pieces, the wrecked families. People will always | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
take drugs. Yes but it starts with cannabis and does not necessarily | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
stop there. Is it a gateway drug? Yes, a gateway to doing other | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
things. People say it is only a gateway drug... You on. It is a | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
gateway for the people that you are buying the drug from. You talked | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
about Colorado. What is being recommended by the Lib Dems is | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
nothing like the Colorado experiment. It is much more similar | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
to the Uruguay experiment. It is very restrictive. It is making sure | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
that the policy does not make the same mistakes that we have made with | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
the way we regulate alcohol, which is a really harmful legal drug. | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
There are a lot of recommendations about price, availability, | :36:20. | :36:30. | |
marketing, and restricting it, plain packaging. There are opportunities | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
to intervene. If it is being regulated, shops only sell this one | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
product. There would be trained staff within the shops who would | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
have the opportunity to intervene. Within that framework, can you see | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
it being acceptable? For over 18 is? I will not get into the legalisation | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
debate because I don't think it is good for my patients to say which | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
way of the fence I am sitting. That is not my purpose here today. My | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
purpose is to suggest there is definite evidence that there is | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
harm. I totally agree with you. Regulation is a public health issue, | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
as you said, but I could never say to my patients, well, it is in the | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
shops and I am choosing to use it. When I talk to young people who take | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
drugs, it is not a punitive approach, I don't tell young people | :37:21. | :37:29. | |
they cannot smoke up or take drugs. It is giving them information so | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
they can make informed decisions as adults. It is about... The oath I | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
took as a doctor is to put out that the harm and research to suggest the | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
harm. There are alternative ways to get a buzz or get a high. Go for a | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
run, get a cat, be happy. As a dog lover, I think cats should be | :37:53. | :38:00. | |
illegal! I don't! What would this mean for policing, freeing up | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
resources? There is incredible pressure on police resources across | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
the country and in Scotland the Government will not reduce the | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
number of police officers below 17,000, but they want us to save | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
millions of pounds from the budget, so police are limited in what they | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
can do. It would be a bonanza for the police. Only where they have | :38:23. | :38:32. | |
made a conscious decision not to prosecute people when they have | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
drugs for their own use. It frees up court and prison time. One third of | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
the prison population in Scotland is in for nonviolent drug offences. | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
Could transform society in a positive way? Yes. We have 7000 | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
deaths from alcohol and none from cannabis and 13,000 from tobacco. | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
Can I give the statistics and not just the theory. In the UK and the | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
US, less than 1% of offenders are in prison for possession of cannabis | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
alone. We're not talking about the tweaking of that. Statistics came | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
out last week for Washington state, and the taxes that have been taken | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
in don't even cover the cost of regulation. It is costing more. | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
Thirdly, the statistics that have come in from Colorado show there is | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
a higher potency than anywhere else in the USA. It is a false dichotomy | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
to do the argument about alcohol versus marijuana because again the | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
research indicates that people that smoke pot of five times more likely | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
to have an alcohol problem and having the two together is | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
horrendous. The fifth one, the fourth dichotomy of prison or | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
treatment, we don't have a good treatment system here. Half of the | :39:49. | :39:57. | |
rehab in this country closed... Thank you. A lot of young Muslim men | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
around the country smoke quite a lot of weed. Is it yes or no in the | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
Koran? There is nothing in the Koran about it at all. Medicinal use could | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
be a possibility. In the 13th century Islamic scholars | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
discussed... Medicinal use could be OK. Yes. What if you enjoy it? No. | :40:19. | :40:28. | |
Because it is harm for other individuals. If you take it | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
medicinally, you would also enjoy it. If you look at it, the primary | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
issue is medicinal use. Muslim scholars have discussed it since the | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
13th century, the difference between alcohol, narcotics and anaesthetics. | :40:43. | :40:51. | |
I cannot tell a lie. Can I have some more cocaine? I am having difficulty | :40:52. | :41:03. | |
articulating myself! The issue is about recreational drugs. You are | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
opening up a can of worms when you allow recreational use of marijuana. | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
So have a cat because didn't the profit cut off his sleeve because | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
the cat was there with her kittens? Lovely. Thank you very much indeed. | :41:19. | :41:27. | |
You can join in all of this morning's debates by logging on and | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
following the link to the discussions. | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
Or you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq. | :41:38. | :41:39. | |
Tell us what you think about our last big question too: | :41:40. | :41:41. | |
Do religions need a carrot and a stick? | :41:42. | :41:43. | |
And if you'd like to be in the audience at a future show, | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
After a break for Easter we're in York on 3rd April for a live show | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
and in the afternoon we will be recording a special | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
Then we're live from Bath on 17th April. | :41:56. | :42:03. | |
These days many churches downplay the idea of eternal damnation. | :42:04. | :42:05. | |
They describe it as an absence of God, with heaven being a blissful | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
But in the Bible, Jesus was very clear about hell, | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
describing it in one parable as a "blazing furnace, | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
the place of wailing and gnashing of teeth." | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
Those who cause offence and whose deeds are evil will be thrown | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
But the good and the righteous will have eternal life, | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
The message is: never forget, you have a choice. | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
So, do religions need a carrot and a stick? | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
I will be with you in a minute. The profit about the cat is a fabricated | :42:39. | :42:48. | |
one but I will get over it in time. That heaven is real, isn't it? You | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
believe it is. Yes. Jesus said, not let your heart be troubled and | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
believe in God. I believe in my father's house and if it were not | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
so, I would have told you and I go to prepare a place for you. Tell him | :43:04. | :43:12. | |
about Jesus. I have and he believed everything I said. If he embraces | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
Jesus can he get to heaven? Of course. You talked about the | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
righteous in the introduction. Righteousness is not doing good. | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
Righteousness is a gift from God when he put your faith in Jesus. We | :43:26. | :43:37. | |
are all born sinners? Yes. None of us is doing good. The best of us is | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
way below. That is why we have the Old Testament, to give us a | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
measurement. This is what God expects and our levels of way below | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
and we need a saviour. Last time Alex was on, he ended up standing up | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
and preaching to the congregation. What is heaven like? Is it real? Is | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
there a reality to it? Yes, it talks about heaven and a new word. What | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
goes on? It says in Isaiah 65, a vision in the Old Testament, that | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
they are building houses, ploughing the fields, but there is the absence | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
of sin. And the presence of God. And there is peace and bliss. It gives | :44:22. | :44:24. | |
you all these kind of things. I don't think we will be sitting on a | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
cloud watching angels with wings firing arrows. We will be building | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
houses. Very likely. We should do more of that here on earth! I agree | :44:36. | :44:42. | |
and the Bible would agree. Shaykh, there are descriptions in the Koran | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
talking about heaven, beautiful people beautiful youths, beautiful | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
handmaidens, trees and figs and rivers of wine. I don't know, it | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
sounds like a polluted river. It sounds very sensual from a male, | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
heterosexual point of view. Is that what it is like or is it a | :45:01. | :45:02. | |
description to get people on board? Hadith, Islam has the most pictorial | :45:03. | :45:21. | |
description of paradise. It does. One of the earlier speakers... In | :45:22. | :45:29. | |
the here-after scholars talk about the fact it was culturally informed. | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
It was catering for a society within which, even in this society. If you | :45:36. | :45:43. | |
say Islam is culturally informed don't you open a can of | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
pomegranates? No, as people of faith you have to accept that reality, | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
what does that inform you about God and his attributes. At the end of | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
the day paradise and hellfire are manifestations. Scholars talk about | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
the worst punishment in hellfire is the fact that tur humiliated in the | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
presence of God. That God has given you the facility to think and to do | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
this things that you do on Earth. There are good people on Earth and | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
bad people on Earth. Are there good people in hell? I don't think so. At | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
the end of the day there's two issues here. One is to state your | :46:21. | :46:27. | |
position as the religio to say your religious path is superior in terms | :46:28. | :46:29. | |
of dealing with social issues, spiritual issues. But the director's | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
cut, which is God's decision on the day of judgment, means that anybody | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
of faith, anybody who believed in God or even argues with God in their | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
hearts is accepting gods. Can an atheist go to heavy no-one You have | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
to ask atheists, are they troubled by God? My answer to that is they | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
are troubled by God, which means they think God exists. There you go | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
Gordon, with you in a minute. Is this at the heart of it, Abrahamic | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
religions, 2 carrot and the stick, to keep you on the straight and | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
narrow. I think it has done a lot of harm, a ritualistic vision of Heaven | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
and hell. It gives the impression that God is some kind of tyrant and | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
if you do the slightest thing to upset him, he is going to zap you | :47:22. | :47:30. | |
and put you in a place of torment. You are right, it is absolutely | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
there in the scriptures. I believe it. So do lots of people. You | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
believe what? Heaven and hell. And in this country the number of people | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
who believe in Heaven and hell has gone up since the '60s, not gone | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
down, and not just religious people. I have faith. If you believe in | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
Heaven and hell it says if you choose to do right or wrong it is | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
not just an arbitrary choice. There's something important about | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
our moral decisions that is weighty and they have consequences. Why not | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
a moral decision to do right and to do good by your fellow beings, to | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
make a legacy for your children in the here and nowt without any carrot | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
and stick, just for proper reasons. I completely agree with you. You. | :48:22. | :48:28. | |
Religions go wrong when they take away people's responsibility. If you | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
think it is the right thing, it is not like saying vanilla ice cream is | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
better than raspberry. It is about who we are as human nature, about | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
how the world is made, means this is the right way to be. It is met if a | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
physical. It is that these decisions really mean something, it is not | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
just a arbitrary matter. You are a humanist, troubled by God, as we | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
hear. Carrot and stick. What do you think about Heaven and local? As a | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
humanist we reject supernational explanations for the natural world. | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
It leads me to think it is almost a simplistic idea of immediate reward | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
or punishment for doing good. I would question how morally good | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
something is if you are only doing good because of that promise of | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
reward or punishment. APPLAUSE. And we can be objective | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
about how to be good and co-operate with people around us. The sense of | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
the wellbeing of those around us if what we do negatively impacts on | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
their wellbeing, that cannot be good. We don't require these | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
external judgments to tell us how can we relate to them? So | :49:45. | :49:51. | |
psychologically, the carrot and stick approach, it was a form of | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
social control, an easy way for people to and that things, doing | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
right and doing wrong. Some people say it is treating us like children. | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
If you have children you say, if you do that again, you're going up | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
stairs, or I will take your mobile phone away from you. Is it an | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
approach to us as if we were little children? As a parent that approach | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
only works for so long. They soon learn to get round it. It is about | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
saying, people are already living their lives the way they are. We are | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
increasingly seeing people moving away from a religious perspective. | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
In Scotland now nearly one in two people say they don't have a | :50:31. | :50:33. | |
religion. That's not necessarily the same as saying they are humanist or | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
atheist but the idea of being followers of a faith. People are | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
generally good. People are looking after one another. People are | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
contributing to charities. They are looking to the they find a wall net | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
the street, most people will return it. So they don't need the carrot | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
and stick. Belief in Heaven or hell isn't diminishing instantly. Where? | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
In Britain. Religion yes, but not belief in Heaven and hell. You can | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
trivialise us and say it is about treating us like children. But it is | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
about a sense of justice. That's what lies at the heart of it. People | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
wonder, if people do these horrific things, we were talking about | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
paedophilia, what happens to them? We don't know but we have a kind of | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
hope and faith that's not the end of the story. They won't be rewarded. | :51:29. | :51:35. | |
It says your decisions as a human are connected to every other human | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
in your society. You are not making moral decisions for yourself, but | :51:40. | :51:42. | |
for the society and the collective that you are in. You can conduct a | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
war because you believe it's in the interests of society. Isis think | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
they are doing the right thing. The message of all the Abrahamic faiths, | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
it says you are not a moral island. You are connected. Therefore you | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
have to make decisions with that this mind. There is an Octoberive | :52:02. | :52:09. | |
standard. That's the way we behaved before the Abrahamic faiths as | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
foragers looking after each other, making sure there was a cohesive | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
group. But they believe many afterlife as well. It was a way | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
of... Yeah. It seems fundamental to humans to believe there is something | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
that is not just us arbitrarily deciding to do this. Especially with | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
rates of infant mortality. It would be a way of dealing with it. It is | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
objective, not just subjective. I would disagree and say it is | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
absolutely a human instincts to hope there is something beyond the | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
reality that we have. But I fear that a lot of people miss out on the | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
wonder and awe of what have now. Just to go back to the point. We | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
don't have to look back at history to see how people lived without the | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
Abraham ache faiths. We can look around the world now and see how | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
people live. People are relating to each other in good ways without this | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
idea of Heaven and hell. Carrot and stick. Pastor? I would say | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
absolutely. Heaven and hell, if you don't know about it and you are | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
living in a society, yes you can have a happy society. But if there | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
is such a place in Heaven and hell and in Christ that's been revealed | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
to us in the world of the Lord. By the way it is not mentioned in the | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
Old Testament. Most of the prophets were humanists. Jesus talked about | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
hell a lot. And about the lake of fire. And paradise. This day will | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
you be with me in paradise, he said to the thief on the cross. But we | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
are not talking about, when you are talking about heaven and hell | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
Emmanuel Cant said with all the injustice in the world and all the | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
failures in the legal system there is has to be somehow, somewhere | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
where it is sorted out, and I liked that. That gripped me as a young | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
guy. I believe, you see the instinct within us. I believe that's a | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
God-given instinct, that we have a hope... A Gordon-given instinct. To | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
get back to the idea that we don't always get it right in this life, | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
therefore there's a chance to get it right after. That's should be a call | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
to us to get it right now. Absolutely. | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
APPLAUSE. What we want in this life is not what we are getting. You know | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
that mismarriages of justice are without number. If I'm suffering | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
injustice and I go to my grave absolutely grieving that I was | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
accused and I didn't get justice whatever, there is nevertheless | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
within me this fought, one day, it will be put right. But if you're | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
dead you won't be worrying about it any more. No. We've all been dead | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
before. No, after death the judgment. Who are you or anybody to | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
that when we die that's the end of it? If it is the end of it. Jesus | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
rose from the dead and came back. If it is the end of it and this is it, | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
does that make sense to you? Yes it does, because if it is the end of | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
it, what have I lost? Nothing. I've had a great life. I've enjoyed it. | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
I'm a humanist with a small h, I want justice. Justice. I want | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
kindness. But if I'm right and there's a hell or a Heaven, but what | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
about our atheistic friends? They are going to burn. Should they'll go | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
to hell. If I only accept that to ensure that I get into Heaven, | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
surely God will know that I didn't do it for the right reasons, that | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
I'm only doing it to secure my insurance policy. | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
APPLAUSE. Nobody... The thing is, it is not about Heaven and hell, Nicky, | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
at the end of the day. At the end of the day it IS about Heaven and hell. | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
Yes, this discussion is. God is a God of love. He didn't make hell for | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
folks here. He didn't make hell for you and I. Who did he make it for? | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
Satan and his angels. You can snicker. But he made it for someone | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
didn't he? Yes, of course he did. That's because we have the free | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
choice. Even Satan had a free choice. He was an all-powerful | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
being, yes, so hell's been made for him. Listen, Jesus died on the cross | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
and went to hell. Took that punishment, the wrath of dad on your | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
behalf, Nicky, because he loved you Jesus died on that cross. He talked | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
about hell more than Heaven. Why? Because he was going there to take | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
your punishment. That's the whole gospel Are you preaching later? Into | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
no. What time are you preaching? 12 o'clock. Shall we all go everyone? | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
It is going to be good. Not far from here. Lynda? If you put it like that | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
it takes away our responsibility, because if Jesus died for you, like | :57:08. | :57:18. | |
the von Ribbontrop repenting when he was going to be hanged, everyone can | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
say, oh, it's going to be fine. But you would know as a professor would | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
know as a professor that's not a belief - that's a cop-out. You've | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
got to belief in your heart. But as sin serious it doesn't matter what | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
we do. The Pastor is stealing your fire, your hellfire. I don't think | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
so. We have a concept of what is good and that's metaphysical. That's | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
what pushes us to do things. The concept of paradise is there. It is | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
a carrot but at the end of the day in our faith you intend that actions | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
are the things that push you into God's pleasure. Is everyone in | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
paradise a Muslim? Everyone accepts God. Does it mean you are a Muslim? | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
It means you've submitted your will to God. It means fighting against | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
paedophilia, fighting against injustice If you are a person on | :58:08. | :58:10. | |
that side and you know there's a God, on the day of judgment God will | :58:11. | :58:19. | |
not overlook your actions. There are one scriptural source that says | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
that. What aboutisties? Tural source that says that. What aboutisties? -- | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
what about atheists. Gordon, the Shaykh and the Pastor are waiting | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
for you. Thank you oryour contributions. | :58:34. | :58:35. | |
As always, the debates will continue online and on Twitter. | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
Next week we're in Brighton, so do join us then. | :58:39. | :58:40. | |
But for now it's goodbye and have a great Sunday. | :58:41. | :58:42. | |
In the last five years, homelessness across the UK has soared. | :58:43. | :59:03. | |
So this is where you sleep every night? Yes. Hm. | :59:04. | :59:06. | |
As part of BBC1's season of Sport Relief, | :59:07. | :59:08. | |
our four celebrities continue to experience life on the streets. | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
And things are about to get even tougher. | :59:12. | :59:15. |